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00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:28Welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room Podcast.
00:31My name is Bill Finley.
00:32I'm a correspondent for the TDN and I also co-host the Down the Stretch radio show on
00:37Sirius XM Radio with Dave Johnson.
00:39How are y'all doing?
00:40Randy Moss, NBC Sports, back in the home office looking out a window right here in Minnesota
00:46at a snowy landscape.
00:49It's now five below zero outside.
00:53It is a beautiful day here in Southern California.
00:55Here's Zoe Capman here with First Racing and First TV.
01:00We'll talk about that a little bit more later on.
01:04And good to have Zoe back after a couple of weeks.
01:06We were certainly, you were certainly missed and welcome back again to the podcast.
01:12So obviously the thing that we want to catch up on each week is what happened on the trail
01:17to the Kentucky Derby.
01:19You thought it was going to be kind of a quiet week as the only stakes race that was run
01:24was the Sam F. Davis, but actually it turned out to be some interesting developments, including
01:30the Sam F. Davis.
01:31As a matter of fact, after this, you're going to hear from Brad Cox, the trainer of the
01:35winning horse, John Hancock.
01:38If I'm going to grade him, I'm going to give him a B minus, I think.
01:43He was very game.
01:44He was passed in the stretch and definitely came back and won.
01:48Buyer figure comes back in 85.
01:50I don't know how tough the field was that he was beaten, but he's a lightly raced horse
01:55by constitution.
01:57He can, will probably get better from here.
02:00But like I said, B minus with the opportunity to move up a horse that will certainly get
02:07better, Randy, I think as the racing continues.
02:09Yeah.
02:10But as a Kentucky Derby contender, you know, an 85 buyer speed figure for an early prep
02:16is he's going to have to, he's going to have to improve a whole lot in a pretty short period
02:20of time.
02:21But I mean, we'd certainly love to own him, right?
02:24He's obviously a very talented horse and it continues a real good run right now for Windstar
02:32Farm and their partners, the China Horse Club.
02:36They've been involved together now in River Thames, who just won very impressively for
02:41Todd Pletcher.
02:42Patch Adams, who we'll talk about a little bit.
02:44Thank you for saying that correctly, River Thames, because I've had themes an awful,
02:49awful lot.
02:50Like what is wrong with you people?
02:52It's these Americans, these Americans, and there's a horse running at Oakland called
02:57Bone Tom.
02:58Right.
02:59Good times.
03:00Yeah.
03:01It's Bond temps.
03:02When you hear the, when you hear him run it open, I'm like, Oh, so there's John, there's
03:06John Hancock and there's a gun metal, the really, really good sprinter that he didn't
03:12run so well in the swale.
03:13But that's another Windstar China Horse Club horse as well as John Hancock.
03:16So they're, they're really on a roll right now together.
03:21John Hancock was good.
03:22And you know, we'll hear from Brad Cox a little bit later on, but in talking to Flavie and
03:28Pratt going into the first turn, he said he literally thought he was in trouble because
03:32he said go and he took off.
03:34Now he's going to need to learn just to relax.
03:37And I think Pratt will know a little bit more about him the next time.
03:41If he rides him again, hopefully.
03:44I thought he showed some moxie to handle those fractions, 22 and 146 and change at Tampa,
03:51which can be a little deeper surface.
03:53I thought he ran a very game, big race indeed.
03:57He's a half to a grade one winner in speech who incidentally Pratt rode as well.
04:02In fact, he got beaten a grade one on her when Swiss Skydiver won the Santa Anita Oaks.
04:09So Pratt knows the whole family.
04:11Is he a great, fantastic course?
04:13No, but he's a good horse and he proved it with that very, very moxie run on Saturday.
04:20And we'll talk to Brad Cox about this in just a minute, but he's come out to say already
04:25he's probably not running next in the Tampa Bay Derby.
04:27We'll figure out where he'll run next.
04:29In the runner up Owen Almighty, trainer Brian Lynch came out and said that he's now likely,
04:33depending on what the owners think, to have a cut back in distance instead of staying
04:38on the Derby trail, maybe go back to one turn.
04:41So that's kind of interesting there because the horse ran really well also in defeat.
04:46So as you can tell, we were all kind of mildly excited, John Hancock, but there was a horse
04:52that ran last week that got everybody talking and that was colloquial.
04:57And of all things, a maiden special weight race on the Friday before the Sam F. Davis
05:02at Aqueduct, trained by George Weaver.
05:05Now this horse had some interesting background.
05:08Last year he ran second beat in the nose behind Mentee, who was the horse that was the full
05:14brother to Fierceness, trained by Todd Pletcher.
05:18They shattered, I don't know how many times they've run five furlongs at Aqueduct over
05:21the years, probably not that often, but the track record that it stood, I think since
05:251963 they broke, hadn't seen or heard from him since then.
05:31He comes back in this race and what does he do?
05:33He runs a hole in the wind, he wins by six and what's got everybody talking, Randy, is
05:39a 106 buyer figure.
05:42Now there's a lot of things to talk about this horse, mainly is he a Derby horse or
05:48is he just a real fast horse that's going to be a very good sprinter?
05:52We don't know yet, George Weaver is not, the trainer has not said where he's going
05:56to run them next.
05:57They said they're just planning it by year at this point, but Randy, what'd you think?
06:02Very, very fast horse, but to me watching him come down the stretch, especially that
06:07close up low angle, I've never seen him in person, maybe he's always has, big stocky
06:13barrel chested kind of horse.
06:15When I saw that, the first thing that ran in my mind was sprinter.
06:19To me, he looked like a sprinter, kind of built like a sprinter, Vekoma, his sire was
06:24a little bit better around one turn, I think, I don't think the dam was a distant source
06:30either in terminology.
06:32So I'm looking at colloquial, probably as a sprinter one turn type going forward.
06:37But my God, is he fast, 106 buyer, I texted with Jerry Brown of Thorograph, Jerry gave
06:44him a minus five and a half on the Thorograph, and he said he's pretty confident about that,
06:50which would translate to a much faster number even than the 106 that we gave him the buyer
06:55speed figure, but he's definitely fast.
06:59He's a bull of a horse, he is, and daddy stamps him, that Vekoma really does stamp him.
07:04Bo Lane sold him at Keeneland, they paid 240,000 for him.
07:08And if you look at his yearling picture, he is like a bull.
07:12He is stocky, he's a good mover.
07:15And what's ahead on, like one thing about Vekoma is when we first saw them at the two
07:19year old sales, because Vekoma had that big range of action, kind of like a butterfly
07:25swimmer.
07:26And everyone maybe kind of knocked him a little bit, his best horses move like him.
07:32And this guy's not much different.
07:34He's got such a fluid, big action and man, oh man, was he impressive.
07:39He's a good horse.
07:40Rangy, that's a good way to put it.
07:42Yeah.
07:43All right, so we're all kind of on the same page, but Zoe, there is such a thing called
07:48derby fever.
07:49You have a very fast horse.
07:51Maybe he's going to wind up in the Pat Day mile on the derby undercard.
07:56But if you own him, don't you just have to find out, give him one chance to see if he
08:03can go two turns and then maybe you have the next justify, who knows?
08:07Well, sure.
08:08I don't see why not.
08:09I mean, why wouldn't you?
08:10It'd be crazy not to.
08:13There's also this narrative, remember, this is 2025 and we know how horses are trained
08:18nowadays.
08:19And there already are a lot of people saying that in just his second lifetime start as
08:24a February three-year-old, that he ran too fast for his own good.
08:30That so many of these horses that run just an unbelievable number react physically to
08:36it and either never are the same again or take a long time to really bounce back from
08:43that.
08:44And I think George Weaver's pretty in tune to stuff like that.
08:48So I'm wondering if he'll, despite the derby fever, if he'll kind of, you know, take it
08:52easy on him a little bit coming back.
08:55And Jack Wolf, the co-owner of Starlight, basically said the same thing in the aftermath
09:01of that race.
09:02He's going to let George completely decide what to do.
09:05And Jack's really trying hard not to fall victim to derby fever in this case.
09:10Jack might have a little bit of a temp coming on right now.
09:13You know?
09:15I also remember Jack Wolf from the Starlight.
09:19They also own a part owners of Citizen Bull.
09:22So it's not.
09:23Oh, and others.
09:24Yeah.
09:25Matter of fact, an interesting thing.
09:27And I talked to Jack and he brought this up.
09:29Randy, I don't know if you know this or not, Zoe, if you know this or not.
09:33The top three buyer numbers of 2025 are Citizen Bull.
09:39We'll start with a colloquial followed by Rodriguez, then Citizen Bull.
09:45All three are part owned by Starlight Partners.
09:49So if it's not, it's not like they have to force this horse into the derby to get a horse
09:54into the race.
09:56Jack also told me, like you said, Randy, that the decisions will be made by George Weaver.
10:01He he gave the opinion, I hope we give him at least five weeks off because of what you
10:07just said.
10:08After that huge number, you don't want to rush him back in two or three weeks to give
10:12him five weeks off.
10:14That's going to make it almost impossible, I think, to make the Kentucky Derby.
10:17So we'll see him maybe in the Woody Stevens and races like that.
10:21But nothing else.
10:23He's a very exciting horse.
10:25Do I want to remind you that the TDN Races room is brought to you by Keeneland.
10:30There have been 24 graduates of Keeneland sales have won the Kentucky Derby.
10:35That's an awful lot.
10:37They include the likes of Mage, Nyquist, Always Dreaming and Triple Crown winner Justify.
10:43Is there a Keeneland sold horse headed to this year's Derby Winner's Circle?
10:47There very well could be.
10:49Five of the top 12 Derby prospects on TD Big Bull Thornton's Derby list were sold at Keeneland,
10:57including two-year-old champion Citizen Bull, a $675,000 September grad.
11:04And Rodriguez sold at the same sale for $485,000.
11:08We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
11:28Carl Spackler on Mercy.
11:31She feels pretty hot.
11:44This week's fastest horse of the week is brought to you by none other than Independence Hall.
11:49One of those fast sires at Windstar Farm happens to be Constitution's only undefeated two-year-old at stud.
11:55He was the fastest two-year-old of his crop.
11:57Based on the numbers, he ran a 101 buyer speed figure in the Nashua, which he won by more than 12 lengths.
12:04His first yearlings were sought after at auction by experienced judges like Kenning McPeak and Jacob West.
12:11So he was just talking about Jacob West.
12:13He ran into him on an airboat in Louisiana back in the day.
12:16Jacob had this to say about Independence Hall.
12:18He's one of the most impressive horses I've ever seen physically.
12:22And Independence Hall's first two-year-olds hit the track this year.
12:25Precocity, speed, and looks, all that for a stud fee of just $7,500 at Windstar Farm.
12:33Now the fastest horse of the week, one we have already talked about on this podcast, Colloquial.
12:38The trainer George Weaver on Friday at Aqueduct who ran that monstrously fast six and a half per long maiden sprint.
12:46And he ran it in a buyer speed figure again of 106.
12:50Colloquial, our fastest horse of the week.
12:59Welcome in now the Gainesway guest of the week.
13:01And it's a familiar face here on the TDN Writers Room broadcast, Brad Cox, because he finds his way into the winner's circle, it seems, every weekend in a big race.
13:11And last week was no exception as Brad Cox won the Sam F. Davis with John Hancock.
13:16Brad, a couple of quick questions for you.
13:18First of all, you have said that you don't think you're going to run him back in the Tampa Bay Derby because it comes up too soon.
13:24So if not the Tampa Bay Derby, where do you think you will go with him?
13:28I think all the preps, the end of March, first of April are in play.
13:33Arkansas, Louisiana, Florida Derby, all those are races that, I mean, Wood Memorial as well.
13:41So, you know, he did come out of it in good order.
13:43Happy with what we saw from him the day after.
13:46And he'll go back to the track tomorrow.
13:48But, you know, I just think it gives the horse an opportunity to, you know, regroup a little bit and take one big swing at a hundred point race.
13:58It hopefully propels him forward.
14:00And Brad, he didn't make his debut until January.
14:03I think it was January 8th.
14:04That's correct.
14:05Why was he a little slow to get to the races?
14:08Well, he came in last summer, I would say spring and training through the summer.
14:13And, you know, we moved him down to Ellis.
14:16He was close to making his debut and just wasn't happy with the way he's moving.
14:20Just sent him home.
14:21No major issues at all.
14:23Just needed some time off.
14:24Young horse was asking for a break.
14:26He got it.
14:27He returned.
14:28And, you know, he was a fresh, happy horse.
14:30And he showed that when he made his debut there at Tampa in January.
14:34Well, you had to be impressed by the determination he showed.
14:37He would not let that horse Owen Almighty go by him.
14:40And now, as usual, you're in a position where it's a nice problem to have.
14:45But you've got to sort through these three-year-olds and the prep races and where you're going to run who.
14:51So let's kind of, I mean, we're talking, obviously, Patch Adams and, what,
14:59Rapture, who did the Broken Maiden.
15:01Tappan Street, who ran such a huge race in defeat last time out in the Holy Bowl.
15:07So what do you do?
15:08Let's say Tappan Street.
15:09Let's start with him.
15:10What about his next start?
15:12I think we're going to do the Florida Derby.
15:15You know, once again, it's a race that offers 100 points to the winner.
15:20You get a good few points for running second.
15:22And, you know, he's picked up 20 out of the—or, I'm sorry, no.
15:26He picked up, what did he get, eight out of the Holy Bowl.
15:30So, you know, give him one big swing.
15:32And, you know, obviously, this Derby trail, it's tough to go through the grind of it.
15:37But, you know, it's not just about getting in the Derby.
15:40You want to have something left if you're able to get to the Derby.
15:43So we just feel like, you know, one more run with him.
15:45He's had two runs there at Gulfstream.
15:47And one more run, if it went well, you know, would, once again, propel him forward as well.
15:52And with Tappan Street and the Holy Bowl, I know some people probably were watching the race,
15:56seeing him for the first time, and about the three-eighths pole,
15:59they're thinking, oh, this is not good.
16:01He's already under a ride.
16:03But that's just—that's Tappan Street, right?
16:05Yeah, if you watch his first race, he come under a ride at the three-eighths pole,
16:08going seven-eighths there.
16:10You know, I don't have a lot of experience at Gulfstream,
16:14but I do see horses kind of come under rides.
16:16It doesn't seem like it's a super—a real speed-favoring track.
16:20I think the old Gulfstreamer, you know, past years,
16:23maybe speed was a little better than it seems to be this year.
16:26But, you know, he is one that you kind of have to ride along, but he stays on.
16:31And that's obviously give us the confidence to think that he'll be better the further.
16:36You know, obviously, big ask of him last time to go a two-term on the 16th off of no more than a maiden win.
16:44You know, lacks experience.
16:46And, you know, I think he's definitely be a better horse moving forward.
16:50I want to go back to John Hancock really quickly.
16:52I was speaking to Pratt about him yesterday because he went and rode him.
16:56And I said, oh, boy, I thought you were in trouble going into the first turn
17:00because he said he broke so sharp.
17:02He said he wanted to get position.
17:04And then he was skiing through like 22 and one.
17:08Were you concerned?
17:09Because he was definitely concerned and he was pleasantly surprised he still had horse.
17:14Yeah, I was very concerned.
17:15Yeah.
17:16And then I really was.
17:18You know, I mean, and obviously, I read, you know, and Almighty was, you know, glued to him.
17:23And then when they turned up the backside, it looked like, you know,
17:26I read kind of, you know, put his horse head and head with ours.
17:29And I thought, you know, this hopefully just stays on and, you know, he can finish up well.
17:35And at that point, I honestly didn't think, you know, he could win with the trip he was getting.
17:42But, you know, once again, we have opinions.
17:45Horses have the answer.
17:46And he gave us the answer we were looking for.
17:48It was a very gritty, determined effort from him.
17:50And at the 16th pole, I read, of course, being I read,
17:53tried to come over on him and intimidate him a little bit.
17:55And he pulled his way through that as well.
17:58So.
17:59Yeah.
18:00He showed a lot of grit and determination.
18:02You see that with that stallion, you know, that there can be a handful of times.
18:07But, you know, I think when they're put into a tight spot,
18:10they'll respond in a positive way, Constitutions.
18:14And what about the name?
18:15When were you given that name?
18:17Because they must have been saving that name for a good horse.
18:20That is a hell of a name.
18:21Yeah, it's a good name.
18:23He's definitely named after not the trainer.
18:29Allison, Allison, the racing secretary of Tampa asked me.
18:32I said, no, he's definitely not named after the trainer.
18:34But nothing against the trainer does a great job, especially with two year olds.
18:37But, yeah, it's it's pretty cool name given the pedigree.
18:42I have to jump in here for a second.
18:44And just somebody pointed out to me that John Hancock did not sign the Constitution.
18:50He signed the Declaration of Independence.
18:54We kind of think of all these, you know, founding fathers is the same.
18:58But, you know, maybe they kind of got a little mixed up there.
19:02Now, that has nothing to do with whether it can run or not.
19:05But John Hancock did not sign the Constitution.
19:08Well, that's the story, right?
19:10Everybody thinks John Hancock signed the Constitution, but he actually didn't.
19:14OK, Brad, let's switch to your three year old fillies.
19:17As you look good with your three year old colts,
19:20you look super good with your three year old fillies, including good cheer.
19:24Who's going to run this Saturday in the Rachel Alexandra undefeated last year.
19:29Four for four.
19:30Didn't make the Breeders' Cup, but really showed how good she was later on in the year.
19:35Just give us the lay of the land.
19:38How is she doing?
19:39How is she coming into this race?
19:41Not really.
19:43Yeah, I really love how she's doing.
19:46Not a typical trainer talk, but she is training well.
19:48We've had her down at Payson training her.
19:50She gets through that track very well.
19:52I think if you can get through that track and you're working well, galloping out well,
19:57you can normally take a show on the road.
19:59This is our first season there, and we've had some success out of there.
20:02So I'm hoping she can show up as a three year old just like she did as a two year old.
20:09I think she's very good.
20:11It's not a big field, but I think it's a very good group of three year old fillies.
20:14And a lot of people know that this path through New Orleans is a very good path toward having success in the Kentucky Oaks.
20:22So I'm excited about getting her started on Saturday and think she's as good as she was as a two year old.
20:28Well, since Immersive has now been sidelined, your two year old filly champ,
20:32until probably the summer with Bone Bruising, you've got not only good cheer,
20:37but Eklaton, who looked pretty good winning the forward gal.
20:40What are her prospects going forward for stretching out?
20:43I'm not sure.
20:44We're going to—she's had four total runs, three around one turn.
20:48They've all been wins.
20:50I thought she got a really good trip in the Goldenrod, just didn't finish up quite as well as we expected.
20:55She came out of the race in great shape, obviously.
20:57She showed that at Gulfstream last weekend.
21:01We're not certain where we're going to go with her.
21:03We'll nominate her to everything, the Gulfstream Oaks, the Devonadel, the Beaumont,
21:08and just kind of see what Stone Street would like to do with her.
21:14If they want to give her an opportunity around two turns, I'd be more than happy to try it.
21:18She's a good mover.
21:19I thought she would handle the two turns in the Goldenrod, and it wasn't a disaster,
21:24just didn't go quite as well as we expected.
21:272,500 wins.
21:28How did that feel with Eklaton in the winner's circle?
21:32Well, it was unexpected because I didn't realize we were that close, to be really honest.
21:37Look, it's a nice achievement.
21:40Obviously, team effort.
21:42It's not an individual achievement.
21:45It's all about the team we have in place and great owners and great horses
21:49and just very fortunate to be a part of a great group of people and very good horses.
21:55You mentioned Payson and that being your first year.
21:58What led you to Payson, and where are your divisions now?
22:02Because you have a lot of horses and you're pretty spread out.
22:05Where are you?
22:06Right now, Payson, Fairgrounds, Oaklawn, and a few at Turfway and some at Belmont.
22:13We have five divisions.
22:16For the most part, everyone that runs an operation has been with us for several years.
22:21Blake, my son, looks after the Payson group division.
22:26That just kind of stemmed from having a lot of really good horses
22:30and keeping horses in a really good climate where you don't miss training
22:34and you can run some horses in some derby preps,
22:38along with being able to ship horses around the country
22:41and not missing any training due to weather.
22:46It's worked out very, very well.
22:47I'm very happy with the way things have went so far.
22:50Hopefully, it'll continue into the spring.
22:52It's a pretty awesome place to be for the winter.
22:54Where are you now?
22:55Are you at Payson?
22:57I was at Payson for the last 10 days.
23:00I'm currently at the Fairgrounds right now.
23:03Blake made a comment this winter.
23:04My son looks after the string there.
23:07He said, if a horse doesn't do well at Payson, they're not going to do well anywhere
23:10because it's horse derby.
23:13Brad, let's stay on the subject of three-year-old fillies
23:15because you got another one that's awfully good in Mohima.
23:18Where is she headed and how is she doing?
23:21She's doing really well.
23:23She's a very good workhorse.
23:24She's been good since day one.
23:26She's continued to be very good.
23:30Another one that we're hoping can transfer her two-year-old form
23:33over to her three-year-old season.
23:35We're looking at the Honeybee at Oaklawn with her.
23:39Once again, super happy with the way she's moving and breezing.
23:43If she returns to form, she will be in good shape because she's a very good filly.
23:49I mentioned good sheer and eclipsed.
23:52You got so many good horses.
23:54It's easy for one of them to slip through the cracks like with me in Mohima.
23:58Patch Adams, let's go to him now.
24:00Let's get back to the Colts just a little bit.
24:02Did you lose any confidence in Patch Adams off his last race?
24:06Well, I watched him breeze on Saturday morning with Pace.
24:09If I did, I regained it because he put in a really good move there.
24:12He's a good Colt. He really is.
24:14I was a little confused with the Southwest watching it as it unfolded.
24:23I didn't expect to be where we were.
24:25I didn't expect Bob's horse to be where he was.
24:28Mark Cassie's horse is obviously very good, and he had a really rough start.
24:35Yeah, I don't know.
24:38I don't know what to make of that race.
24:40I'm going to give him another shot.
24:43I think we're maybe looking at the Tampa Bay Derby with him, but he's a good horse.
24:48He's got a lot of talent.
24:49I think he's going to make a splash in one of these Derby preps.
24:55Well, he's only going to have one or two more opportunities,
24:58but I think he's going to step up and run big in his next run if he's doing as well
25:03leading up to the Tampa Bay Derby as he was this past weekend.
25:07All right, you said Disco Time had a little setback,
25:09and that kept him out of the Risen Star.
25:11What's an update on him and Rapture, the horse that broke his maiden
25:15so impressively on the Southwest undercard?
25:17Rapture is doing very well.
25:18I'm not sure where we're going with him.
25:20Maybe the Virginia Derby could be an option.
25:23It's a 50-point race.
25:24It's a one-turn mile in an eighth.
25:26It's mid-March.
25:27It gives him plenty of time.
25:29Disco Time did.
25:30I just wasn't happy with the way he came out of the LeCamp.
25:35He is back to the track in training.
25:37Very happy with the way we had some diagnostics run on him.
25:39He passed everything.
25:41He looks good, and he's moving well,
25:43and we'll get him back on the brief schedule here in a couple weeks.
25:47Yeah.
25:48The Virginia Derby makes its TDN podcast debut, Zoe.
25:52How about that?
25:53That's pretty awesome.
25:54Do you have any three-year-olds that maybe are not on our radar
25:57that we should know about, Brad?
25:59There's a colt running this weekend for Godolph.
26:04He's debuting going long, and it looks like a race
26:07where there's some horses with some experience.
26:09His name's Coffee Talk.
26:10He's a nice colt.
26:11They've really come around over the last few weeks.
26:17There's a couple fillies running this weekend we really like,
26:20a Complexity named Velvet Vortex,
26:24a Nyquist filly named Unwavering Trust.
26:27They've trained really well.
26:29I would expect them to run big.
26:31There's three maidens there that will debut this weekend at the fairgrounds.
26:34Listen, I'm not saying they'll win,
26:36but they're solid horses that could potentially be stakeholders for the future.
26:40Let me get my pen here.
26:42Coffee Talk, Unwavering.
26:44Okay.
26:45There we go.
26:46All right.
26:47Thanks, Brad.
26:48Yeah.
26:50Brad, I wouldn't call you an overnight sensation
26:52because you've been around for a long time,
26:54but 10 years ago we would not be having you on this podcast
26:57because really until Monomoy Girl came around,
27:01your accomplishments were not nearly as noteworthy as they are now.
27:06Do you have to pinch yourself sometimes to think how far you've come
27:10in a relatively short period of time?
27:12Well, listen.
27:16I mean, obviously, I've watched guys like Todd Kletcher
27:21and D-Wayne Lucas throughout the years.
27:25They were my idols and wanted to have a barn full of nice horses like them.
27:31And, yeah, I mean, it's cool to be in a position to where, guess what?
27:35You have to open up a pace because you have so many nice horses
27:39and you need location.
27:41But, no, it's a lot of hard work that goes into it and a lot of great help.
27:46I mean, that's really what it comes down to in great horses
27:49and people believing in you and you believing in your staff
27:55and just really having a good team to work with and great horses.
28:00When was the last time you took a holiday?
28:03About a year ago I took maybe, I guess, a three- or four-day vacation.
28:09And I feel like I'm due another one, but with being in the position we are
28:16with, obviously, nice horses and trying to get to the Oaks in the Derby,
28:19we'll maybe do a little something after the Derby.
28:22And then I'm sure after the Derby it'll turn to after the Triple Crown season
28:26and then it'll be after Saratoga and then it's after the September sale
28:30and then after the Breeders' Cup.
28:31So it never ends, but it's fun.
28:34I love what we do and we've got a great team and a great group of horses.
28:41So this could be a Brad Cox trivia question.
28:43I just went into my database to look for the first graded stakes Derby prep
28:51that you won as a trainer.
28:53Remember?
28:54Yeah.
28:55Yeah, I think.
28:56I'm going to go with Owendale, the Lexington.
28:59Owendale, the Lexington.
29:03What year would that have been?
29:05I think maybe 19.
29:10You are right.
29:12Owendale and the Lexington.
29:14And you also won with Mr. Monomoy.
29:17There's a name from the past.
29:18Risen Star.
29:19And the Risen Star the very next year, 2020.
29:22Those were your first two.
29:23Yes.
29:24Well, Brad, thank you so much for joining us
29:26and being the Gainesway Guest of the Week.
29:28Best of luck this weekend with good cheer and all your other horses coming up
29:32on the road to the Derby and the Oaks.
29:34And once again, thanks for joining us and we'll catch up with you again soon.
29:38Thanks, guys.
29:39Look forward to seeing you again.
29:40Thanks, Brad.
29:41Our Guest of the Week, Brad Cox, brought to you again courtesy of Gainesway.
29:45To use a football term, Gainesway had a hell of a recruiting season last year
29:48and will have four new stallions when the breeding sheds open on Saturday,
29:52including Tappet Trice.
29:54Of course, his sire Tappet famously stands at Gainesway,
29:58and it's kind of interesting to note that as a racehorse,
30:00Tappet made $557,000 on the track.
30:04Tappet Trice, more than three times that, $1.8 million.
30:09Four graded stakes wins, including the Bluegrass Stakes,
30:12and those four graded wins tie for the most by any horse retiring to stud in 2025.
30:18Back in the day, Tappet Trice was a $1.3 million yearling,
30:22partially because of his sire Tappet,
30:24and also because his dam is a half-sister to champion Philly Jaywalk.
30:28Tappet Trice standing at Gainesway for an initial fee of $12,500.
30:33Gainesway, power, passion, performance.
30:38♪♪♪
30:43Here comes that big grey Tappet Trice right down the outside.
30:46♪♪♪
30:48Tappet Trice wins the Toyota Bluegrass.
30:52Tappet Trice's 2024 debut was awesome.
30:58Tappet Trice is lunging. Tappet Trice wins the Woodward.
31:02♪♪♪
31:08In this week's edition of First Things First,
31:10I caught up with the ever-smiling Mr. Frankie DeTore.
31:14♪♪♪
31:19Take me through your trip, Frankie. It looked like it was pretty easy.
31:22Were you surprised to be up there on your own?
31:24Yes. I mean, when I looked at the form,
31:26it was not particularly a lot of speed.
31:30And I jumped with the intention to go forward.
31:33I got a nice, easy lead.
31:35And when I got him to the back,
31:37I just got him off the rail a little bit.
31:39He was playing with his ears. I went, great.
31:41And from the 3.8s, I winded up.
31:43And I thought, well, it's good enough.
31:45You know, because I had the perfect trip.
31:47And when I pressed the button and I looked around,
31:49I was free in front. And that was it. All over.
31:51Nobody was coming.
31:52Good. I like it that way.
31:53I like it.
31:54When are we going skiing?
31:56Well, soon, because we had a bit of rain.
31:58And hopefully, we'll get some more rain next week.
32:00So we're all on.
32:02All right. Let's go.
32:09And yes, we're looking forward to going skiing,
32:11but not this Monday, like I had planned,
32:13because we do have a four-day racing week coming up
32:16on President's Day.
32:18So we will race from Friday through Monday.
32:22So just a reminder that we will have special holiday racing
32:26on Monday, as far as the stakes are concerned.
32:29The Grade 3 Palace Verdes is the headline on Saturday,
32:32and it will feature last year's winner in big city lights.
32:36Good news for horsemen and horsewomen,
32:38as Santa Anita has announced some purse increases,
32:41which is absolutely brilliant to hear.
32:44Between 8% to 11% for overnight purses,
32:48and those will start on February the 28th.
32:50Good things happening at Santa Anita.
32:54Well, the news out of Saudi Arabia this week was that,
32:57who wants to run?
32:58$20 million, nobody's all that tempted.
33:02I've never seen anything quite like this,
33:04this unbelievable purse.
33:06And everybody, for different reasons, is saying no to it.
33:10Sierra Leone had a minor injury.
33:13He's not going to run.
33:14They expect that maybe he'll be back for the Oak Lawn Handicap.
33:17Locked, who ran very well to finish second
33:21after a tough trip in the Pegasus World Cup Invitational.
33:24They've said no.
33:26And the one that was the most surprising to me was White Averio,
33:29who was co-owned by a Saudi prince,
33:32but he doesn't call the shots the Cornette brothers of C2 Racing do.
33:36They said they are not going to run in the Saudi Cup.
33:39Instead, they're going to run in a race on the Ghost Zapper,
33:44on the Florida Derby card as a prep for the Met Mile.
33:49Zoe, $20 million, I guess, doesn't go as far as it used to.
33:52What's going on here?
33:53Not as far, and I think it's the case a lot of times of less is more now.
33:57A lot of people have realized that going either to Dubai or Saudi
34:03kind of interrupts with plans for the rest of the year.
34:06Horses need significant time off after making the trip.
34:10No matter how well they bounce out of it and come back,
34:13they're going to miss, say, those classic races in the summer,
34:17the Midsummer Derby.
34:18You're going to miss the Met Mile.
34:19You're going to miss a bunch of key races.
34:22The Soul of the Angel thing,
34:23I think a lot of that was to do with they couldn't get hold of anyone.
34:27She was fourth on the reserves, then she was third,
34:30and then perhaps she was first,
34:32but they couldn't get hold of anyone to discuss it.
34:35And they're like, yeah, all right, we're not going.
34:37Locked, I'm delighted to say,
34:38looks like he's coming to Santa Anita for the big cap,
34:41so good to have a headline horse there.
34:44And the foot absence basically kept Sierra Leone out,
34:49so they'll still have a full field over there,
34:52but you have to feel for them a little bit.
34:54I know you don't, Bill.
34:56But they're missing several headline horses.
35:00Yeah, when you look at the quality of the horses that they are going to have,
35:04including Romantic Warrior, Forever Young,
35:07I mean, it's going to be a hell of a Saudi Cup.
35:09It's going to be really.
35:10And also the Dubai World Cup winner from last year that ran lights out.
35:16What was his name, Zoe?
35:17Bob Baffert trained him.
35:19Oh, Laurel River.
35:21Laurel River, yeah.
35:22I mean, those three are unbelievable.
35:25You've got Straight No Chaser going over there,
35:27the Buda's Cup Sprint winner.
35:29So, you know, they're going to be okay, I think.
35:32So to me, this is just 100% circumstances.
35:37I think $20 million still resonates over here as much as it ever did.
35:41I think next year you may look up,
35:43and there may be five American horses in the Saudi Cup.
35:46But you had Senor Buscador who went over there
35:48and was really never the same coming back.
35:51And they were thinking about bringing him,
35:53but he just didn't train very well going up to it.
35:56Fierceness had a little procedure.
35:58He's not going to be ready to run until at least April.
36:01You know, just various setbacks that horses have had.
36:05Lockton's the only one that really kind of surprised me a little bit.
36:08But I think it's just circumstance.
36:11Well, Randy, why weren't you surprised by Wade Averio?
36:14Because he ran so poorly over there last year.
36:16Okay.
36:17He went over there and just completely laid an egg.
36:20I don't think he traveled well to get over there.
36:23Not a good sipper.
36:25Yeah, and we talked about that earlier.
36:27I think it all came down to how much coercion C2 would get from the member of the Saudi royal family
36:38that was a minority owner in the horse.
36:41And apparently he went along with it to not go back and push the envelope one more time.
36:46Well, there is one American horse, Rattle and Roll, trained by Ken McBeak.
36:51He will be over there.
36:52You know, not knowing all that much about the foreign horses,
36:56but, you know, maybe he's got a shot.
36:58He won a prep already in Saudi Arabia.
37:00And before that, he won the Clark Stakes.
37:02And Kenny McBeak, he knows what he's doing.
37:06So you never know.
37:07Maybe we will get the one American horse into the winner's circle.
37:12But, Randy, I agree with you.
37:14I think that the races like the Met Mile and the Whitney have become so prestigious
37:19and so important to a horse's stud value that even at the $20 million,
37:24people don't want to screw up the chances to win races like that.
37:29Especially if they've gone over there before and it didn't end well.
37:32Yeah.
37:33Yeah.
37:34So more on the decoupling front this week.
37:37It was more about Tampa Bay Downs than about Gulfstream.
37:41New legislation was passed in some house or some committee.
37:45I get all that kind of stuff mixed up.
37:47I don't really care.
37:48That moved the possibility of decoupling in Florida, moved it forward.
37:53But the news was that now Tampa Bay Downs, which does not have slots or a casino
37:59but has a card room, is now included in the legislation.
38:06And, Zoe, the people I talk to, I talk to the head of the Tampa Bay Downs Horse HBPA,
38:13says he's not too worried about it.
38:14He says that Stella Thayer, the owner, loves racing,
38:18doesn't think that she's all that worried about making money.
38:21He thinks that Tampa will be fine.
38:24But he also said, I'm going to fight this because it's not just about Tampa.
38:30It's about decoupling all across America.
38:33And he doesn't want to see a domino effect.
38:35And that was trainer Mike Deeney, who you would have spoken to.
38:39And Mike, a very good horseman, a very good trainer,
38:43and he's kind of got his finger on the pulse of everything that's going on
38:47at Tampa Bay Downs.
38:49And he rightly said that Tampa Bay Downs, obviously, that's on some money.
38:54He reckons it's worth about $500 million.
38:57But Stella Thayer is adamant that Tampa's not going anywhere.
39:03Stella Thayer, she's in the Hall of Fame.
39:06She was the president of the TRA.
39:09She was the president of the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in Saratoga.
39:15She has a long, long history in horse racing.
39:18And she's owned Tampa Bay Downs along with her brother,
39:21her younger brother, Howell Ferguson, for going on 40-plus years now.
39:26I could go down a rabbit hole and talk about the auction between them
39:30and George Steinbrenner back in 1986.
39:34There was a controversy there.
39:36No surprise that Steinbrenner butted heads with Stella Thayer
39:39about some ownership details.
39:41And there wound up being this big auction at Tampa in November.
39:45Doug Don was there to bid for the owner of Gulfstream Park.
39:48John Brunetti was there, the owner of Hialeah, to bid.
39:51The owner of Ellis Park, who lived in Oldsmar, was there to bid.
39:55And ultimately, Stella Thayer outbid them all,
39:58bid $16.5 million for Tampa Bay Downs back in 1986.
40:03So she's put her money up.
40:05But here's the issue, okay?
40:07She's 84 years old.
40:09And her younger brother, I believe, is 80.
40:13Together, they have four adult children.
40:16What happens when they're gone?
40:19Okay?
40:20You can say, okay, decoupling is one thing, all right?
40:24But look, it's the legislature that approved decoupling.
40:28It's the legislature that can undo decoupling.
40:32Regardless of where you are, regardless whether it's in Gulfstream
40:36or Tampa or any place else around the country,
40:39it's just all going to boil down to the success of the horse racing industry.
40:46If the horse racing industry is going down the tubes,
40:49legislatures will decouple.
40:51Track owners will want to decouple.
40:53And they won't get much pushback.
40:56If the industry is robust, then that's another thing.
41:02That protects racing a little bit more in a situation like that.
41:05But decoupling is just strictly at the whim of politics.
41:11Whatever legislature is in force at the time
41:15and whatever owner owns that particular racetrack.
41:19Fortunately, right now, Stella Thayer and her brother, Hal Ferguson,
41:23are seemingly very committed to horse racing.
41:26Yeah, it's a really nice track.
41:28It kind of flies under the radar because everybody is so focused on Gulfstream
41:32and South Florida.
41:34It's kind of a cute little track.
41:36The weather is good.
41:38They run really good racing for lousy purses there
41:41because they don't have any other form of revenue
41:45other than the betting handle they have.
41:47So let's hope that Mike Dini, as Zoe said, really has his finger on the pulse,
41:53is right about that.
41:54He sounded pretty confident, at least in the short term,
41:56like you said, Randy, with Thayer family being up in their 80s.
42:01In the short term, he thinks everything will be fine.
42:03What will happen 10 years from now, 15 years from now?
42:06Well, that's something I think all racetracks right now need to worry about,
42:10not just ones like Saratoga.
42:12And they could actually find themselves in a very good position
42:16because there's a couple of ways this whole controversy could shake out.
42:21I'm still not convinced that, as a lot of people are,
42:25that Gulfstream Park is in a coffin and there's a grave digger starting to dig the grave.
42:31I think there are enough people out there, hopefully, with a lot of money
42:36who love horse racing, who might be willing to step in,
42:40maybe form a partnership and buy Gulfstream Park and the property.
42:46The real estate is not going to depreciate.
42:49It's going to be a real estate investment long term.
42:52And if they love horse racing enough to keep it going in the short term,
42:55that's the best case scenario.
42:57Failing that, I think what you may see, guys, is a deal cut with Brunetti somehow
43:04to allow the winter dates to go back to Hialeah,
43:08which could then put them in a position to host the Breeders' Cup again someday,
43:12and then the rest of the dates to Tampa.
43:16So you may see Tampa with a very expanded racing schedule
43:22if it shakes out without Gulfstream Park.
43:26In South Florida, there's a lot of different ways this thing could go.
43:29So I have texted John Brunetti Jr. to find out if he has any thoughts about Hialeah's future
43:36with this whole situation going on.
43:39He has not answered me, so I don't know if that means anything.
43:43But as your intrepid reporter for the TDN, I'm trying.
43:47So am I. So am I.
43:50And I think it is encouraging, I think, that he hasn't come out with a definitive no.
43:58Right.
43:59If he was absolutely dead set against it, I think we would have heard it by now.
44:03Because there's enough people like me chattering about Hialeah
44:07and the possibility of Hialeah being a good fallback position
44:10if something goes down with Gulfstream,
44:12that if he was against it, I think you would have already heard it by now.
44:17Let's hope so.
44:19Well, I mentioned it earlier, but XBTV has a new name.
44:23So this week, the TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by First TV.
44:28That is one slash S T TV.
44:32A new name, same great content.
44:35This week's First TV Work of the Week is just Basking,
44:38who worked Friday over the turf at Palm Meadows in a Rapid 47 and 4
44:43because she was way on the outside fence.
44:46It was the fastest work of 54 at the distance on the day.
44:50You may remember just basking.
44:52She broke her maiden and won the Iowa Oaks before finishing third
44:55by just a length in the grade one Alabama at Saratoga
44:59in her most recent start last August.
45:02Trainer Ian Wilkes has not yet picked out a race for the four-year-old.
45:05We'll be right back after this message from XBTV slash First TV.
45:12Be a smarter, better with XBTV.
45:16The best horses.
45:20With thousands of exclusive morning workouts.
45:27All at your fingertips and delivered right into your inbox.
45:32Everything you need to be informed.
45:35Be smart, bet smart with XBTV.
45:42PA Bred, I think we've built a brand at this point.
45:48It's excitement at every step.
45:52Roses for Deborah just set a new track record.
45:55On average, for the past decade, Pennsylvania paid over $28 million a year
46:00in breeders' awards, restricted races, and owner bonuses.
46:04Plus, PA Bred shined on the world's biggest stage.
46:07Just three states have bred more Breeders' Cup winners.
46:10Learn more at pabred.com.
46:13And as always, the TD and Rider's Room also brought to you by the
46:16Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association, a.k.a. the PHBA,
46:20from the Department of Interesting Nuggets.
46:22And no, this doesn't involve George Steinbrenner and Stella Thayer.
46:25Of course, we all know, owners know, that the winner of a typical $50,000 race
46:29earns 60%. They get $30,000.
46:32Every owner knows that math.
46:34But if you have a registered PA Bred, you get an owner's bonus.
46:37You can receive up to $42,000.
46:40And if you had bred that horse to one of the 36 registered PA sires,
46:44those earnings then increased to $58,800,
46:49more than the original purse, and close to what you would get
46:52for winning a $100,000 purse.
46:56And in Pennsylvania, you can find stallions by Tappet, Curling,
46:59Munnings, Street Scents, Spikestown, Medaglia d'Oro, Gunrunner,
47:02Cross Traffic, Good Magic, and many more, including 10 new sires for 2025.
47:06It's not too late to book.
47:08Go to pabred.com and check out the PA Stallion and Boarding Farm Directory
47:12on the homepage, and book your next, or maybe your first, PA Bred.
47:18The main attention this weekend in racing will be at the fairgrounds.
47:22We have a giant card including preps for the Kentucky Derby
47:26and the Kentucky Oaks, or also for the Louisiana Derby
47:31and the Fairgrounds Oaks.
47:32Why don't we start with the boys in the Risen Star,
47:35which is the 14th race on the card.
47:38And I'm excited to see East Avenue come back.
47:42Everybody knows this story.
47:43He looked fantastic winning the Grade 1 Breeders Futurity at Keeneland
47:47before running as the favorite behind Citizen Bull Gaming
47:51and others in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile.
47:54The race is a complete throwout.
47:56He stumbled badly at the start, was dead last,
47:59never got involved in the race, trained by Brendan Walsh.
48:02Looks like he's been training quite well down at the fairgrounds,
48:05though this is no gimme.
48:07There's some other pretty good horses in there, including Jonathan's Way,
48:10who finished second last time out behind first resort in the Kentucky Jockey Club
48:15and is making his 3-year-old debut.
48:18But, Zoe, is it East Avenue or is it someone else?
48:22It's East Avenue.
48:24You know, hopefully everything goes right for him this time.
48:27No stumbles, no excuses.
48:29He's apparently training like an absolute beast down there.
48:33And just judging by how good he looked as a 2-year-old in November of last year
48:38and October, I can only imagine what he looks like now.
48:42He's by Medaglia D'Oro out of a Ghost Zapper mare,
48:45so he's got a bit of everything, really, that you could ask for.
48:49He's just going to have to get a clean trip.
48:51He is, without a doubt, the horse to beat in there.
48:54I will give Bilt another shot.
48:56Obviously, his numbers went downhill a little bit last time after that run
49:01in the slop, but after hearing from Brad Cox,
49:04it looks like it's supposed to rain again this weekend.
49:07So if the track is fast, I'm going to use Bilt as well.
49:10If it's not, perhaps I'm not really quite sure who I'm going to use
49:15because he definitely, while he ran a good race to just be beaten in the neck,
49:19that wasn't the best race he's ever run.
49:22So I do believe that Bilt is a good horse.
49:25The best horse is East Avenue.
49:28Totally agree, and we're likely to learn a little bit about East Avenue
49:33in this spot because when he broke his maiden and he had that unbelievable win
49:37in the Breeders' Futurity at Keeneland, he controlled the pace all the way
49:41with no real challenges.
49:43I mean, he set a pretty quick pace in the Breeders' Futurity,
49:45but he went wire to wire.
49:46Here, if you look at the race, there's very little early speed to go
49:50with him except the number one horse, American Promise,
49:54trained by Wayne Lucas, who hesitated at the start in his last time out
49:58in the Southwest.
50:00You know he's probably gotten a little schooling since then,
50:04and he's breaking from post number one in a big field,
50:07so Keith Espenson is going to have to go from post one.
50:11He went wire to wire in fast time before that in a maiden win at Oaklawn
50:15in the mud, so I think they're going to have to go with American Promise
50:19and so East Avenue could get some pace competition in here,
50:23and we'll see if he's just as good, if he gets a little bit of a challenge
50:26and he stalks early as opposed to how good he was when he was on the pace.
50:31Weather for New Orleans, Friday is clear, Saturday 65% chance of rain
50:37and 60% on Sunday, so obviously that'll change,
50:40but it's supposed to rain all week.
50:41The only clear day is Friday.
50:43Knowing New Orleans, as I've lived there an awful lot,
50:46it loves to rain on the weekends in New Orleans,
50:48so I'm calling for rain all day Saturday.
50:51Okay.
50:52Well, then that means the horses in the Rachel Alexandra may also have
50:56to negotiate a sloppy track.
50:58We've already heard from Brad Cox who has the favorite
51:01and their good cheer undefeated horse who is making her first start of 2025.
51:07This is a tough race, though.
51:09This is no gimme for her.
51:11I'm simply joking.
51:12It's a serious horse.
51:14Last time out in the Silver Bullet day on the slop,
51:17she looked really good drawing off wind by two and a half lengths.
51:21She's got a lot of ability,
51:23so I don't think that good cheer is necessarily going to just lay
51:26over this field.
51:27A little bit disappointed that they only got six horses.
51:30Ballerina De Oro ran second in the Demoiselle last year,
51:35comes from the clouds for Chad Brown.
51:37She obviously is going to be a contender as well.
51:39Randy, your thoughts on the Rachel Alexandra?
51:43It's a heck of a race.
51:45Between good cheer, ballerina De Oro, and simply joking,
51:48it could go any of the three ways.
51:50Simply joking has a tactical advantage, I think,
51:55over the other two because of her speed.
51:58Good cheer just did not get away from the gate well at all.
52:02In all of her races, she just did not jump very quickly,
52:06but then she has this devastating turn of foot around the second turn
52:10that's just visually so impressive.
52:12And ballerina De Oro has even less speed than good cheer.
52:15She completely drops out the back end.
52:17She does not break well at all, and then when she does,
52:20she's still kind of slow into stride.
52:22And last time out, she went a mile and an eighth at Aqueduct
52:26and still couldn't quite get up,
52:28lugging in a little bit on her left leg coming down the wire.
52:31But they all three run comparable numbers,
52:34and it's going to be a heck of a race.
52:36If Zoe's right, and it rains on the weekend, right,
52:40and it's a sloppy racetrack, to me,
52:43maybe that could give the edge to simply joking
52:45just because of her running style.
52:47Maybe, but one of the best races to date with good cheer
52:52was when she won that allowance race at Churchill by 17 in the slop.
52:57In the slop, yeah.
52:59So she can be closer in the slop,
53:01and that's probably going to be the plan
53:03depending on how the racetrack is indeed.
53:06I firmly believe it's good cheer and simply joking for me.
53:10The TD and Writer's Room brought to you by West Point Thoroughbred.
53:13The early nominations for the 2025 Triple Crown
53:16include 10 three-year-olds owned or co-owned by West Point,
53:20including stakes winners Bullard, Keep It Easy, and Pascaline,
53:25as well as, the source is not a stakes winner,
53:27but he may go to the top of the list,
53:29Southwest Stakes troubled runner-up Sandman.
53:32Six of those 10 were acquired at yearling sales.
53:35Four came from two-year-old and training sales.
53:38And interestingly, Bullard and Sandman right now
53:41are both being pointed for the one and a quarter million dollar
53:44Rebel Stakes at Oakland on Feb. 22,
53:47where it looks like they could be facing Barnes
53:50in an enticing showdown.
53:52Now here's more from West Point.
53:56All the thrills.
53:59Fraction of the bills.
54:04Experience the power of the partnership.
54:10Change your life, make new friends,
54:12and compete at the highest level of thoroughbred racing.
54:17West Point Thoroughbreds,
54:19the gold standard in racing partnerships.
54:21Visit westpointtb.com.
54:29That's a wrap on this week's show.
54:31I want to thank my co-hosts,
54:33Randy Moss and Zoe Cadman,
54:35as well as our Gainesway Guests of the Week, Brad Cox,
54:38all the people who worked so hard behind the scenes,
54:40our producers, Katie Petruniak, Sue Finley,
54:43Anthony LaRocca, and Aliyah LaRocca.
54:45Let's hope for dry weather this weekend at the fairgrounds
54:48and it should be a good day of racing.
54:50Talk to everybody next week.
54:58Thanks for watching.