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Transcript
00:00:00They say, the harder the work, the greater the reward.
00:00:18This is our life's work.
00:00:21Good morning, it is 9.04, Wednesday, August 17th.
00:00:27This is the TDN Writer's Room, presented by Keeneland.
00:00:30My name is Joe Bianca.
00:00:31I'm the Associate Editor of the Thoroughbred Daily News, still clearly recovering from
00:00:35the Saratoga flu.
00:00:36We missed you guys.
00:00:37Bill Finley, a correspondent for the Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:00:40You're about to see in a minute, John Green is growing his beard back.
00:00:44John, I got to tell you, I'm not in favor of this.
00:00:47You look 10 years younger without it, pal.
00:00:48I know that's tough to hear, but I'm saying it, I'm here for you as a friend.
00:00:53I appreciate it.
00:00:54Any time I can take fashion advice from Bill Finley, I really have to listen, that's true.
00:00:59Jonathan Green, General Manager of DJ Stable, and listeners, I don't know if you realize,
00:01:03but this is show 150, 150 of the Writer's Room, which is about 149 more than most of
00:01:10us thought we would get to.
00:01:11That's right.
00:01:12I don't know if you remember, but John wasn't on the show initially.
00:01:15He came on, and then he just wouldn't leave the office.
00:01:18He stayed in the office until we put him on the show as a regular, and I guess it worked
00:01:21out.
00:01:22That's right.
00:01:24That's exactly right.
00:01:25Well, there are worse things for sure.
00:01:28Like my beard.
00:01:29Yeah, no.
00:01:30I wanted to contradict that because I'm in favor of the beard, John.
00:01:35I appreciate it.
00:01:36Who's more stylish, me or Bill?
00:01:37Close.
00:01:38There's no question I'm going to take hipster advice from you, Joe, and basically everything
00:01:46else from Bill.
00:01:47All right.
00:01:48Cool.
00:01:49Joe, you're a 30-something guy.
00:01:50You don't have to worry about how you look.
00:01:52The old folks like me and John, I mean, it is a pertinent point.
00:01:55Do you look older with a beard or not?
00:01:58To me, that's many reasons why I never grew a beard.
00:02:02That would be one of them, though.
00:02:03All right.
00:02:04We'll leave it at that.
00:02:05That's all we have for the 150th show.
00:02:07Thanks again, guys, for listening.
00:02:08We had one bit about John's beard, and now we're out.
00:02:11The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland, home of the World's Yearling Sale.
00:02:17The Keeneland September Yearling Sale begins Monday, September 12th.
00:02:21You can learn more at theworldyearlingsale.com.
00:02:23Okay.
00:02:24So, we had a good weekend of racing at Saratoga.
00:02:28The best part of it is that I was there.
00:02:29It was great to catch up with people, see a lot of close friends they hadn't seen in
00:02:34a long time, have some dinners, have some drinks.
00:02:37It was a blast.
00:02:38Perfect weather.
00:02:39Just before we get into the racing, go to the Paddock Bar.
00:02:41Like, if you're up at Saratoga this year, I know some people had mixed feelings about
00:02:44it at first.
00:02:45There's no better place to go hang out and watch the horses than the Paddock Bar.
00:02:49It's tremendous.
00:02:50It's like the best casual post-up spot you can have at Saratoga, and they did a great
00:02:54job with it this year.
00:02:56Everybody, even the people who didn't like it, once they got there, they saw it, and
00:03:00they loved it.
00:03:01So, on the racetrack, the big race of the weekend at Saratoga was the four-star Dave.
00:03:06Will Chad Brown ever win the four-star Dave?
00:03:08Someone start a collection plate for Chad Brown because he just can't get it done.
00:03:12He had Regal Glory, who was the filly, who was favorite in that race, ran second to Casa
00:03:16Creed, who was just such a nice horse.
00:03:18Just shows up every single time.
00:03:19No matter what the pace is, the pace was pretty slow in that race.
00:03:22Now has won the Jiper at six furlongs and the four-star Dave at a mile in back-to-back
00:03:27races.
00:03:28He was terrific.
00:03:29Also, Damon's Mound looked really good.
00:03:31He looked awesome on the track, and I thought there should have been a smaller odds discrepancy
00:03:35between him and Gulfport, and he really left no doubt that he was the better horse than
00:03:39Gulfport.
00:03:40It's really cool.
00:03:41It's always nice when there's a trainer like Michelle Lovell, who has never started a horse
00:03:44at Saratoga, come in and win a great two-stakes race because she has a really nice two-year
00:03:49old.
00:03:50That's the kind of story you love to see, and that's the kind of story that Saratoga
00:03:53revolves around.
00:03:54Everybody wants to talk about Todd Pletcher and Chad Brown, but really it's also about
00:03:58the smaller trainers who get this one shot, one or two shots in a lifetime at Saratoga,
00:04:04and hopefully they can come through, and Michelle Lovell did.
00:04:06I think Katie's got a story with her coming out either later today or later this week.
00:04:10There's a little bit of action at Churchill as well with the first Churchill Arlington
00:04:14Million card.
00:04:15We talked to Tyler Gafleon about his win on Santine in the Arlington Million.
00:04:19Got a nice figure.
00:04:20Got a 106 buyer.
00:04:21Only going a mile and an eighth instead of a mile and a quarter, but what did you guys
00:04:25think about any of the weekend stuff?
00:04:26Well, Joe, you hit on all the topics, the highlights of Saratoga.
00:04:31Cassegried, a very nice horse, and yeah, I mean, it's just bizarre how there's this one
00:04:35race that Chad Brown can't win.
00:04:37He also sent out two of the five horses in the field, I believe it was a five-horse field.
00:04:42Cassegried is a very good horse.
00:04:43I didn't like him in a mile.
00:04:44I thought that he, that was a little bit beyond his limits, his best range, but he
00:04:49got a great trip.
00:04:50He got a great ride.
00:04:51And now the question for the connections, do you go for the Breeders' Cup Turf at a
00:04:55mile or do you go for the Breeders' Cup Sprint, which is only five and a half furlongs at
00:05:00Keeneland?
00:05:01So he's, you know, he's kind of in between both.
00:05:03The perfect distance for him would be six and a half or seven furlongs, I think.
00:05:07They're obviously not going to get that.
00:05:08Also, Damon's Mound is, what a cool horse he is and what a cool story this is, and it's
00:05:12not just Michelle Lovell.
00:05:13I mean, nobody's ever heard of these owners.
00:05:16It's a homebred.
00:05:17And I want to talk maybe a little bit later about the Origin Million, but I want to ask
00:05:22John a question.
00:05:23I'm going to throw it to it.
00:05:24They said after he broke his maiden at Churchill, they turned down a million dollars for this
00:05:28horse.
00:05:29Now, what does he worth?
00:05:30John, what do you think when the, and I'm sure the Budstock agents were still calling
00:05:34and I don't know if the connections just said, lose my number or not, but what do you think
00:05:38would be the fair market value?
00:05:39What can they get for this horse at this point?
00:05:42Well, you know, the fair market value and what I would pay are two different things.
00:05:46And not because I'm cheap, but because, you know, you look at this and you say, all right,
00:05:50what has the horse done?
00:05:51And the horse has won, you know, broke his maiden very impressively at Churchill Downs,
00:05:54no less.
00:05:55So it wasn't even like he won it at a bush track.
00:05:57He won very impressively.
00:05:58And then he took on Gulfport, who was the prohibited favorite in the Saratoga Special.
00:06:03But even that race was six and a half furlongs.
00:06:05So I think it's still a little early to tell whether or not, you know, the horse is going
00:06:09to be the favorite in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile.
00:06:13And you guys, you know, would know better than I would as far as the number of horses
00:06:16that have won the Saratoga Special and gone on and won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile.
00:06:21I don't think there's that much of a correlation.
00:06:24That being said, you know, you look at the yearling sale that just happened at, you know,
00:06:29up at Saratoga and horses were selling for 600, 800, a million dollars, where there were
00:06:3314 horses that sold for over a million dollars.
00:06:35And they're not only haven't run before, but they're like a year and a half away from
00:06:39starting themselves.
00:06:40So, you know, a million dollars for a really nice looking Girvan, you know, that ran an
00:06:4684 buyer first time out, an 86 buyer next time out.
00:06:50I think that people are still going to be talking about, obviously, you know, seven
00:06:55figures for the horse and maybe up to two million dollars.
00:06:57But if it was if it was me, if I was giving the advice, I would still say, let's wait
00:07:01and see if the horse can go eight furlongs or maybe even two turns before we start
00:07:05throwing some of the big dollars around.
00:07:06But no, no, no disrespect to the horse.
00:07:09He is a really nice colt.
00:07:12And let me get back to the Arlington Million, because I'm going to throw it back to John
00:07:15after that, you know, it was it was I thought that Churchill Downs deserved credit for
00:07:20running these races after Arlington Park closed down.
00:07:23And they do. But in hindsight, these races just it didn't have any juice whatsoever, no
00:07:30electricity whatsoever.
00:07:32There's a couple of reasons for that.
00:07:33You know, first of all, the people that know only one European outfit came that was for
00:07:38the Beverly D, Adrian O'Brien, Adrian O'Brien, no foreign starters in the excuse me, in
00:07:45the Arlington Million, short fields, not a lot of star power, et cetera.
00:07:50And then I was in part we have an interview coming up later with Tyler Gafleon, who won
00:07:55the race on Sandin.
00:07:56And I'm sure he's got some interesting perspectives on it.
00:07:59But that turf course looked like it was dirt and somebody took a can of spray paint and
00:08:04painted it green. It didn't even look like a turf course.
00:08:07Now, that's something that can be corrected.
00:08:09It has to be over time.
00:08:10I mean, Churchill can't go forward over this.
00:08:13But now in hindsight, with all the talk we've had over the years about the show, about we
00:08:18have too many stakes races and we've got to get rid of some, I've done a 180 on it.
00:08:23You know, maybe it's just time to put the Arlington Million out the pasture.
00:08:27I think you have to give Churchill credit for at least trying to keep the race going
00:08:31between the Beverly D and obviously the Arlington Million, because grade ones are still
00:08:35difficult to come by.
00:08:36So I understand why they were trying to continue the tradition and have the race there.
00:08:41During the interview with Tyler, Joe asked him flat out, what was the turf course like?
00:08:46And it was a very interesting answer that Tyler gave.
00:08:50Be that as it may, Santin looked good.
00:08:53He did it the right way.
00:08:54It's the second time that he's won a grade one and a second time winning a grade one on
00:08:58the Churchill turf course with Tyler aboard.
00:09:00So that one wasn't too much of a surprise.
00:09:03As far as other races, in my estimation, that really impressed me, I have to say Big
00:09:09Invasion winning the turf sprint on Saturday, I believe it was, on Sunday, excuse me, on
00:09:17Sunday. You know, all Big Invasion has done is, you know, he's run seven times.
00:09:23He's got six wins in a second and, you know, really just was toying with the group that
00:09:29was in there. And he went off one to two for a reason.
00:09:31And he showed it. I mean, he flew by those horses like they were like those horses were
00:09:35tied to the inside rail.
00:09:37And, you know, Christophe Clement has done a phenomenal job campaigning this horse and
00:09:42picking the races. And I believe, guys, I heard the rumor that the horses, Big Invasion
00:09:47is not going to run again until the Breeders' Cup turf sprint.
00:09:51And if that's the case, I would, you know, I understand.
00:09:53And again, we did that with Helium after winning the Tampa Bay Derby.
00:09:58And you say, you know what, we got the horse exactly where we want him to and we're just
00:10:02going to kind of coast into the, you know, into the big race.
00:10:04And I can understand why, you know, the powers that be, Reefs, Thoroughbred Owners and
00:10:09Christophe Clement want to do that with Big Invasion.
00:10:12But I, you know, in the beginning of the summer, if you would have said to me, you can
00:10:17have Golden Pal or you can have the rest of the field for the Breeders' Cup turf sprint,
00:10:21I think it would have been, you know, 50-50 in my mind.
00:10:24Golden Pal ran and won, but I was much more personally, I was much more impressed with
00:10:29the way Big Invasion did it.
00:10:31And he's a three-year-old that's ascending.
00:10:33And I think some of these older horses, whether it's Golden Pal or Arrest Me Red or, you
00:10:38know, or A Case of You, all of which ran in the Breeders' Cup turf sprint last year, I
00:10:42don't think that they're as good as Big Invasion is aspiring toward right now.
00:10:48Yeah, I'm glad you brought him up because to me, visually, he was the most impressive
00:10:52winner of the weekend.
00:10:54And you can kind of get lost a little bit when you have that kind of win streak and
00:10:57you just keep winning these smaller stakes because there's no grade one or grade two
00:11:01races for three-year-olds sprinting on the turf.
00:11:03So he kind of gets lost a little bit because he doesn't have that marquee win in terms
00:11:07of a top level success.
00:11:09But he looks so good and continues to look good.
00:11:12And Joel Rosario just fits him so perfectly just to make that one run.
00:11:16And the good thing about him, too, is like he's an off the pace type, but he doesn't
00:11:20need a pace meltdown.
00:11:21Like if the pace is, you know, if you have to stay somewhat close going five and a
00:11:25half, he can do that.
00:11:26You know, I remember the two-back race, the half was like 43 and four and he was like
00:11:31two and a half whites off of it.
00:11:32So he clearly has enough speed to hang around and still have that big kick.
00:11:36And, yeah, he could not have looked any better on Sunday.
00:11:39I tried to beat him a little bit with John's horse, but, you know, at the end of the
00:11:43day, he was just big invasion was just a class above those horses.
00:11:46And it was interesting reading the quotes from Kristoff after the race where he was
00:11:50like, you know, maybe we'll try something like the Breeders' Cup turf sprint.
00:11:54He was being like very cautious about it.
00:11:56Like, what else are you going to do with this horse, man?
00:11:58Like, it's too late to send him over to Europe now.
00:12:00It's just there's not really any more big turf sprints that, you know, that I think
00:12:05you can do and then still be back in time and ready for the Breeders' Cup.
00:12:08But, yeah, he looked absolutely tremendous.
00:12:10And one other horse I wanted to mention was a maiden winner on Saturday.
00:12:13It was the Todd Pletcher three-year-old first-time starter by Liam's Map Expressman.
00:12:18And he looked very, very good.
00:12:20That race was over in the blink of an eye once they turned from got a 107 buyer, always
00:12:24on the lookout for horses first time out who can run those kind of figs because they're
00:12:28few and far between.
00:12:29So I think he's definitely a horse to watch.
00:12:31Pletcher had another nice filly on Sunday, Chocolate Gelato, but won by a bunch.
00:12:36So Pletcher, you know, Todd Pletcher, as usual, has got that stable of big two-year-olds,
00:12:41especially on the third and even a nice, really nice three-year-old first-time starter as
00:12:44well. The TDN Writers' Room is brought to you by Keeneland, the catalog for the 2022
00:12:49Keeneland September sale is now live and features 4,147 yearlings.
00:12:54The auction covers 12 sessions from September 12th to September 24th.
00:12:59Book one includes yearlings out of 89 graded stakes winners, 36 grade one winners, plus
00:13:04siblings to 50 grade one winners.
00:13:06And also tickets for the Keeneland Fall Meet are now on sale.
00:13:0917-day meet includes 22 stakes for the record $8.9 million.
00:13:15Nine Breeders' Cup winning year-end stakes will be held during Keeneland's opening
00:13:18three-day Fall Stars weekend.
00:13:20Get your tickets at tickets.keeneland.com.
00:13:23We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:13:27When the thoroughbred world descends upon Lexington this November, there is one place
00:13:32you need to be. The place where history comes alive with every championship victory.
00:13:40The place where the future is built with the fall of a gavel.
00:13:44The place that exists to be the heart of this industry, the center of it all.
00:13:50Home to the November breeding stock sale and the 2022 Breeders' Cup, Keeneland.
00:13:57It was just put together like a machine and he had a great mind.
00:14:00Everything about him was what you'd want.
00:14:02Tis the law, pops the cork and the champagne.
00:14:05Tis the law is going to win the first leg of the Triple Crown.
00:14:09I've never seen him get tired.
00:14:11Respect the law, tis the law.
00:14:13His structure is just perfect.
00:14:15His bone is perfect.
00:14:17He's left the others behind.
00:14:19He's going to win the run.
00:14:20Happy Travers.
00:14:21He's everything you would look for in a horse.
00:14:27The TDN Riders, everyone, is brought to you by Coolmore.
00:14:29Justify got his third stakes winner with Just a Warrior, who took the Ellis Park debutant
00:14:34stakes on Sunday.
00:14:35Justify also had a winner earlier in the weekend with I'm Just Kiddin'.
00:14:39He's a half sister to grade one stakes winner Bar of Gold, who John's familiar with as
00:14:43the dam of coinage.
00:14:45Am I am I correct in that?
00:14:46Yep. And then also she broke her maiden on Saratoga on Friday.
00:14:49Also, fellow Ashford Sire, Practical Joke, had an impressive winner on Sunday, who I
00:14:54just mentioned, Chocolate Gelato, broke her maiden by eight and a half lengths.
00:14:58Practical Joke is now the sire of six juvenile winners from his second crop.
00:15:03Now, let's check out our interview with Tyler Gaffigan, who won the first Churchill
00:15:06Arlington Million, obviously one of the top young riders in the country, a nice guy as
00:15:11well. Had a good chat with him, with me, John and Tyler.
00:15:13Check it out. The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by
00:15:16The Green Group, an accounting, tax consulting and advisory firm specializing in the
00:15:20thoroughbred industry. With over 500 clients in the horse business, they have proven
00:15:23strategies to save you taxes.
00:15:25You can learn more about how they can help you at www.greenco.com.
00:15:30We're thrilled to welcome to the show the first winner of the Churchill Arlington Million
00:15:34Stakes, Tyler Gaffigan.
00:15:35Thanks for coming on, man.
00:15:37No, thanks for having me, guys.
00:15:38I'm excited. Great to have you on.
00:15:40I wanted to do like the Pete Aiello, Tyler Gaffigan thing, but I'm like a little under the
00:15:44leather, so I didn't want to screw it up.
00:15:46But I love that when he does that when you come in the winner's circle.
00:15:48So let's start with this.
00:15:50Was it different? How different was it riding at Churchill than it would have been riding at
00:15:54Arlington Park, both because of the course and because of the distance was only a mile and
00:15:57eighth this year as opposed to the usual mile and a quarter.
00:16:01It was definitely a little different.
00:16:02I've only been to Arlington once.
00:16:04It was, I believe, like 2015.
00:16:07Huge fan of the track. I was bummed I never really got to go back.
00:16:10But I think Churchill did a great job hosting it.
00:16:13The track was safe.
00:16:15We had no issues and I think it was a good day for everyone.
00:16:19Yeah, I just want to follow up on that real quick, John, because there was a lot of talk about
00:16:22the Churchill turf course and how they had to suspend turf racing for a little while.
00:16:25What did it feel like to you compared to a normal turf course?
00:16:29It was a little more firm.
00:16:32It's been real hot there the past few days, so it dried up pretty quick from the rain they had
00:16:35the previous week. Just a little more firm than normal.
00:16:39But I didn't see any issues with it.
00:16:42And Tyler, you had won a grade one before on Santon, which also, ironically enough, was at
00:16:49Churchill. Going into the race, you were the third choice in the race.
00:16:53Did you feel confident going in there, having won a grade one on him before on that turf course?
00:16:58Most definitely. I've worked him a few times over that turf course earlier in the spring.
00:17:03He's always shown a liking to it.
00:17:05He was working great up here at Saratoga.
00:17:08So we had a lot of compliments going into the race.
00:17:11I wanted to ask you about this because I think you can really tell between the top 15, 20
00:17:16riders or so in the country compared to some of the lower level tracks just in their style of
00:17:20riding. You can watch them on horseback and think, well, that's a guy who should be at the
00:17:24upper level tracks. Are there any people in particular that you modeled your style after that
00:17:29kind of shaped the way you ride horses?
00:17:32I would say probably Gary Gomez and Jerry Bailey are my two biggest influences.
00:17:36I grew up a huge Bailey fan and try to copy him as much as possible.
00:17:41What specifically would you try to incorporate if you were studying them?
00:17:46The way they ride a race, I love Bailey's strategy going in.
00:17:50He knew where to be at all times, always seemed to be in a perfect position.
00:17:54Gary Gomez was very versatile, very aggressive down the lane, and I love the way he finished
00:17:58on horse. And Tyler, aside from being one of the top riders, you've been really consistent.
00:18:04I don't think people realize that you have an 18 percent win percentage over the course of your
00:18:09career. And just about every year, you either average like 18, 19 or 20 percent wins and
00:18:15about 50 percent of the money.
00:18:16What's the secret behind that?
00:18:18Because that's a very consistent win percentage and win place to show percentage.
00:18:24I've been so fortunate throughout my career, but I would have to say having a good agent and
00:18:29getting on the right horses is key.
00:18:31Yeah. Well, I mean, I remember you first coming up at Gulfstream too.
00:18:34Was there was there a horse or was there a particular meet that you had where you felt like you
00:18:39had turned the corner and then you had arrived?
00:18:41Did you have that moment?
00:18:43I believe riding through the championship meet down at Gulfstream, when I was an
00:18:49apprentice, I think that helped a lot.
00:18:51I was able to ride with guys like Johnny B, Javier Castellano.
00:18:55I learned a lot from them.
00:18:56It was probably my worst meet I ever had, but definitely gained a lot of experience from it.
00:19:01And Tyler, just to stick with the numbers again, you're at 1,900 wins and change.
00:19:07You're basically projected to accomplish the 2,000 win milestone sometime before the end of the
00:19:14year, maybe sometime around the Breeders' Cup.
00:19:16Do you think about the 2,000th win?
00:19:18Do you think about what race you want that to be in a perfect world?
00:19:22I've thought about it a couple of times, but I would just be so blessed to even get there.
00:19:27Hopefully everything goes well and we can continue to pick up some nice horses and continue to win
00:19:32some races and we'll get there when we get there.
00:19:35And what will it mean to you when you get the 2,000th win?
00:19:39It would be so amazing.
00:19:41I remember when I won my first race, my 100th race.
00:19:45It's been a lot of fun and hopefully we can just continue this.
00:19:50Bill Finley wrote a story recently asking whether or not this Saratoga Jockey's Room is the best
00:19:55jockey colony in the history of American racing.
00:19:58Obviously, you're a younger guy, so you don't remember the jockey colonies of the 80s and early 90s that he was
00:20:02comparing them to. But just give us a sense of what it's like to be in that jockey's room and to know you're
00:20:09going against the best of the best every single day.
00:20:12What are the difficulties?
00:20:14What are the things that benefit you?
00:20:16What's it like?
00:20:17I love it personally.
00:20:18It's very challenging every day.
00:20:21You've got to come in and give it your all.
00:20:23These guys, they're not going to take it lightly.
00:20:26Everybody's out there competing, trying to win races.
00:20:28And like you said, the best riders in the country are here and they're putting on a good show.
00:20:32So just to be mentioned among them, it's truly an honor.
00:20:37And Tyler, your part of having you on was to celebrate your grade one win.
00:20:40Also, a small part of having you on was a little self-serving because you've won some big races for us recently
00:20:46and as far back as a couple of years ago.
00:20:49Give the audience an idea of what you think about Wonder Wheel, who's our two-year-old filly that hopefully is going to be
00:20:54running the Breeders' Cup.
00:20:55And you also rode a turf horse for us that just came over from Europe, Catamousto.
00:21:00And even though he didn't win, we were really excited about the way that you rode him and the experience that he had.
00:21:05What is it like to ride horses like that?
00:21:08It's amazing. It makes you feel special for the top trainers and owners to come to you and ask you to ride their horses.
00:21:16It's such a privilege.
00:21:17But I love the filly, Wonder Wheel.
00:21:21The day she broke her maiden, they said that she wasn't the quickest two-year-old.
00:21:25She definitely seemed like one that was going to be down the road.
00:21:28But she took me every step of the way that day.
00:21:30As soon as I put her out in the clear, she jumped into it.
00:21:32And then she came back and ran a great race.
00:21:34And I believe it was the debutante.
00:21:37And she showed a lot of speed that day.
00:21:42It kind of surprised me, but she was doing it so easy the whole way.
00:21:44She's a very talented filly.
00:21:47She worked great last week.
00:21:48So I'm excited for her.
00:21:50And Catamousto, he was a little difficult before the race.
00:21:54I heard that he had a little bit of trouble in the gate.
00:21:57But Joseph O'Brien did a great job schooling him.
00:21:59The gate crew knew exactly what to do.
00:22:01He jumped out well, put himself in a great spot.
00:22:03I think first time going around a turn, threw him off, come into the stretch, seemed like he got a little bit lost.
00:22:08But as soon as the horses came to his outside, he re-engaged, finished up good.
00:22:12We ran second behind a really nice horse.
00:22:14So I don't think it's anything to hold our head down about.
00:22:17Yeah.
00:22:17Is it different riding for a guy like Cassie versus riding for a European trainer like O'Brien?
00:22:22Do they have different training styles in the morning?
00:22:24I would have to think so.
00:22:25I haven't been too familiar with Joseph yet.
00:22:28I haven't met him in person.
00:22:29He was here about a week and a half ago, I believe.
00:22:32And I didn't get a chance to go by there, but I spoke with him on the phone the other day.
00:22:37I have all the respect in the world for him.
00:22:39He's done it as a jockey, continuing his success as a trainer.
00:22:43And I was just so thrilled to get the opportunity to ride for him.
00:22:48Yeah, I just wanted to ask you this because this is the horse that I associate with you with most so far.
00:22:54I don't know, maybe you agree, maybe you disagree.
00:22:56It's War of Will, because I remember that Preakness win.
00:22:58And I remember to see a little bit of a spark on your face when I bring him up.
00:23:01So maybe you agree.
00:23:03But what was it like to ride him?
00:23:05And just can you describe the feeling of crossing the wire first in the Preakness for your first Classic win?
00:23:10War of Will was amazing for me.
00:23:12He taught me so much.
00:23:13I remember to this day, I think it was a risen star.
00:23:17We walked in the paddock and he was getting tacked up.
00:23:20And Mark was a little bit nervous that day.
00:23:23There was high expectations for him.
00:23:24And we were trying to get to the Derby.
00:23:26So, of course, pressure's there.
00:23:28But I just remember looking at War of Will and he just had the most calming presence about him.
00:23:32Just a look in his eye and just gave me all the confidence.
00:23:35And he went out that day, showed up big time.
00:23:37And then we get to the Preakness and we had a little bit of trouble in the Derby.
00:23:43And there's some controversy there.
00:23:44So there's a little bit of a struggle leading up to it.
00:23:47But he didn't blink at all.
00:23:49He was there for me every step of the way.
00:23:51Didn't hesitate when he went up the inside.
00:23:53And I remember maybe 100 yards before the wire, I just kept thinking, no way, this can't be true.
00:24:00Yeah, yeah, for real.
00:24:01And I remember there was like a quote that you had where you were saying similar to what you're saying now that all the talk in the two weeks after that Derby was about maximum security and the DQ.
00:24:11Did you feel like he got a fair chance in the Derby or did you think that that that incident on the far turn just just cooked him for that race?
00:24:19I we lost all chance when that happened.
00:24:21Going into the turn, I just got outside of maximum security.
00:24:25We got out to the two path and he grabbed the bid and I felt like I was about to win.
00:24:31Unfortunately, everything happened and it wasn't our day that day, but he came back and showed up big time.
00:24:38Definitely worked out for you guys.
00:24:39And Tyler, thanks so much for coming on, man.
00:24:41Love watching you ride and continued success, bro.
00:24:45Thank you so much. Appreciate you guys having me.
00:24:47Absolutely.
00:24:48It's nice, Tyler.
00:24:50The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group, an accounting, tax consulting and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:24:56As this week's Green Group guest of the week, Tyler Gaffley-Owen will receive a free one hour tax consultation.
00:25:01Learn more at GreenCo.com.
00:25:03Be right back. This message from the Green Group.
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00:25:42Union Rags, proving Lane's End's tried and true stallion making formula, a formula that leads to success for our partners and our stallions.
00:25:51He's a leader in his sire crop by graded stakes winners and grade one winners.
00:25:55He's a commercial standout with multiple million dollar sales and a six figure yearling average.
00:26:01And with four full books, read 50 and 60,000, he has even more exciting progeny in the pipeline.
00:26:08Union Rags, a stallion that stands above the rest.
00:26:13The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Lane's End.
00:26:15This week's Lane's End Stallion of the Week is Union Rags.
00:26:17The classic winning millionaire has sired five individual grade one winners, including this year's Santa Anita Handicap Winner Express Train.
00:26:24This year, he's also been represented by grade two suburban winner Dynamic One.
00:26:28He stands at Lane's End for $30,000.
00:26:32So we do have to have a trainers behaving badly segment, I guess.
00:26:35We don't want to keep this one too long because, you know, this guy's kind of a nobody unless you're like on the Mid-Atlantic and like you bet Mountaineer or Charlestown or some of those races or some of those tracks.
00:26:47Burton Sip, which I think is a great name for a country act, like either solo or group.
00:26:53And it's such a waste that he's he's a allegedly cheating trainer instead.
00:26:57So he was suspended last night by Churchill yesterday by Churchill Downs indefinitely.
00:27:03And this is a guy that has a really, really bad reputation in the industry.
00:27:06And it sounds like with good reason.
00:27:08One thing one nugget about Burton Sip that I think should tell you who he is.
00:27:12He stopped training for a while in the mid 80s after a bunch of his horses died and he was charged with insurance fraud.
00:27:19Now, he eventually pled to lesser charges.
00:27:22So you can't say that he definitely killed those horses, but it was at least brought up in the court of law.
00:27:28And then he went away for a little while and then he came back and opened an exotic animal zoo in New Jersey, which is always something an upstanding and animal friendly guy does.
00:27:38You know, Joe Exotic, if you ever watch Tiger King, those people are the worst people on the planet.
00:27:44And so this is just based on that, just based on background.
00:27:47This isn't a guy that should be around horses or horse racing.
00:27:51And yet he's racked up a lot of wins.
00:27:53He's got over twenty eight hundred wins, I believe, like I said, mostly at Mountaineer.
00:27:56And that's you know, he's one of those guys that's allowed to thrive, I think, in the shadows and some of those tracks that nobody pays attention to really.
00:28:04And unfortunately, I think those are some of the tracks that people should be paying the most attention to because there's so little scrutiny.
00:28:10And because, you know, I think there's a lot a lot of lesser regulation than you would think.
00:28:15And then you would hope, especially compared to other bigger states.
00:28:19But Bill probably remembers this guy a lot more than I do because he's been training for a really long time.
00:28:24What are your thoughts? Well, my thoughts are that he's about the war.
00:28:28Well, I'll tell you what, I will give you my thoughts.
00:28:30I in 1993, way back then, I did a huge story on this guy and all the problems he had.
00:28:36And this is what Hart Stoddard, a former commissioner of the Pennsylvania Racing Commission, had to say, said he is the most deplorable person I have ever encountered on the backstretch of a racetrack.
00:28:47And you know what to find?
00:28:48Normally, you won't get people to throw in racing to say such stuff like that.
00:28:53I could have got a hundred people to say that.
00:28:56So it would take all day long to go through his his history and all the things he's done, the worst of which was the allegations that he killed horses for insurance purposes.
00:29:08Now, you can't say he did because he wasn't convicted on that.
00:29:11He pled to a lesser charge.
00:29:12But still, where there's smoke, there's fire.
00:29:15But what has been happening lately with the guy and lately, at least over the last seven, eight years, is that the people that watch the sales that are for the killers, his horses wind up in there one after another, after another, after another.
00:29:31Now, Mountaineer Park in Presque Isle, like virtually every racetrack in the country, has a no slaughter policy.
00:29:39If you're caught sending a horse to slaughter, your stalls are revoked, you're banned.
00:29:44This guy was doing this in plain sight.
00:29:46I mean, he wasn't making any attempt to go around anything.
00:29:49You know, and the question is, you know, why was this allowed to happen and nobody do anything about it?
00:29:54Now, I wish you were out by now because I would love to be able to refer to it.
00:29:57But I've been talking a lot to Dan Ross of the TDN.
00:30:00He's working on a huge story that's hopefully going to come out, maybe even in Thursday's edition, where he asked the question that everybody should be asking.
00:30:09How is it that this guy, quote unquote, the most deplorable person I have ever encountered on a racetrack in my life, has been allowed to train for all these years?
00:30:18Now, he was out from, he was suspended and ruled out, ruled off.
00:30:21He had no starts from 94 to 2004.
00:30:24But from 2004 to present, he's found at least two racetracks, Mountaineer and Presque Isle, that said, hey, Burton, come on in, enjoy the show.
00:30:31We need your horses.
00:30:32We want them in the entry box.
00:30:34What does it say about this sport that it was unable to keep a guy like this out of the game and to say to him once and for all, Burton, you're done.
00:30:45Go back and run your zoo in New Jersey and good luck with the rest of your life.
00:30:48That, to me, is the real story.
00:30:50And that's what Dan is going to write about.
00:30:52You know, again, and the things that we're talking about with this guy are just the tip of the iceberg.
00:30:58You know, when you talk about a guy with the worst record you could ever find in horse racing.
00:31:03I'll put this guy up in my number one.
00:31:06And you have to wonder from a logistics standpoint, from a licensing standpoint, and from a checks and balancing standpoint, why this guy is able to continue to not only get stalls, but get licensed.
00:31:17And guys, I know we've talked about this before, but it bears repeating on the Kentucky state trainer's license, which I have right here in front of me.
00:31:26There are two questions that would, in my estimation, automatically disqualify him from getting licensed.
00:31:31Number one is, have you ever been fined over $250 by any racing jurisdiction?
00:31:36Well, it took me two seconds on Google through the Thoroughbred Regulatory Rulings website to see that in August of 2020, he was fined $300 by Presque Isle.
00:31:48So I stopped looking at that point because right then and there, he has to disclose that information.
00:31:53That's just one case.
00:31:55And the other one is, have you ever been ruled off, ejected or excluded from a racing association?
00:32:01And the answer, again, is yes.
00:32:02He's been told that he's had his stalls revoked.
00:32:05He's been asked to leave racing jurisdictions.
00:32:08So again, he has to, if he's answering them honestly, and you say, John, don't be stupid.
00:32:12He's not going to answer these questions honestly because he's doing all these other things.
00:32:16So why would lying be any worse than some of the other things that he's alleged and also been proven to do?
00:32:22So either he's getting fraud on these applications or whoever the licensing officers are that looked at these applications are just rubber stamping them and just saying, oh, OK, he answered it and signed it and gave us his $200 to be licensed.
00:32:41So therefore, he must be OK.
00:32:43There's got to be a check and balance.
00:32:44Why even ask the question if you're not going to police it?
00:32:46It doesn't make any sense at all.
00:32:48And the other thing is, you know, West Virginia, especially, and I have relatives in West Virginia.
00:32:53Go ahead and search out here.
00:32:54But I have relatives in West Virginia.
00:32:56I've been there many, many times.
00:32:57There are really nice people in West Virginia, and it's a really great state to be in.
00:33:02But for the love of God, man, why are you fighting things like HISA that is going to protect you as a racing jurisdiction from people like this?
00:33:13I mean, it's easy when you have a federal regulatory board coming in and wanting to protect you and protect your horses from just egregious, just villainous people like this.
00:33:27Why are you fighting it?
00:33:28I don't understand if you're going to harbor people like Burton Sip and say, come on in, bring your horses here because we want you to race.
00:33:36Well, then that's your decision.
00:33:38But don't fight HISA.
00:33:40Just say we're not going to be a part of HISA and let your industry kind of run on its own, just like Texas is trying to do right now.
00:33:46And at the end of six months, when you don't have a racing, you know, racing anymore because you don't have any handle, then you guys accomplish exactly what you wanted to do.
00:33:55You guys did it your way.
00:33:56You went right down the right down the tubes on your own terms.
00:33:59And that's fine, too.
00:34:00But you can't be half pregnant in this situation.
00:34:02Either you're going to be a part of the way that modern racing is.
00:34:05And basically police, you have somebody else police you from having people like Burton Sip come in and, you know, and represent your racing in West Virginia or not.
00:34:16But either way is fine.
00:34:18Just don't try to gum up the works with, you know, by suing HISA on something like this.
00:34:22And I know this is going off the beaten path as far as we're talking about Burton Sip.
00:34:27But I think it's just Burton Sip is just one person that is just, you know, exemplifies why some of these racing jurisdictions either shouldn't be around anymore or should get in line and basically have somebody else clean up their mess because they can't do it themselves.
00:34:41But, you know, people like Sip are just vile, vile, vile, vile.
00:34:44They prove time and time again that they don't give a shit about the horses that they train.
00:34:49They don't care about the athletes whatsoever.
00:34:51All they want to do is line their pockets.
00:34:52And and to me, that that's just it plays right into the hand of exactly what, you know, PETA says and exactly what the general population thinks about our industry, that we don't care about the athletes that we, you know, once they can't run fast enough, we can't get them out of our stalls fast enough.
00:35:09And Burton Sip just exemplifies exactly that kind of, you know, the kind of person that they see our industry represent.
00:35:16Yeah, let me jump in, John, and I'm glad you mentioned that, because, you know, we we tell our enemies, PETA and the other animal rights activists, that we love the horse, we care about the horse, we'll do anything we can for the horse.
00:35:29There are some bad apples out there, but we're going to get rid of them and we're going to root them out of the game.
00:35:33You know what?
00:35:34And PETA hasn't jumped on this yet.
00:35:36Maybe they will, you know, but when they someone like this charges says of racing that, you know, it's bad and fill in the blanks for all the many reasons you look at the Burton Sip answer question, how do we answer our critics?
00:35:53Well, if they were to come in and say, look at Burton Sip, how do we answer our critics?
00:35:57I'll tell you what, they're not right overall.
00:36:01But in the micro sense, in this case, they are absolutely right.
00:36:05Racing as a whole, as an industry, and you can point fingers at every racing commission that gave him a license, every racetrack that let him run.
00:36:12So it's not fair to point a finger at everybody.
00:36:15But as a whole, this industry failed the animal.
00:36:19And that's the thing that we had a social license granted to us that at the end of the day, we're going to put the horse first and protect it every way we can.
00:36:28Well, in this instance, we failed miserably.
00:36:30And it's disgusting.
00:36:32Well, yeah, the guy, the guy has twenty three thousand five hundred twenty three starts in his lifetime.
00:36:39I mean, that says it all right there.
00:36:40Like this isn't a guy that popped up out of nowhere, did some shady stuff and then we got him out of here.
00:36:45He's been doing this for a decade.
00:36:47Twenty three thousand starts.
00:36:50How many trainers even have that for a lifetime?
00:36:53Like, you know, relatively I'm speaking, I'm sure not that many.
00:36:56And John brings up an interesting point about Heise, because I read a story from TV from last week in the TV and that he says now the industry is going to have to pay twice for all these lawsuits because Heise is having to defend itself and spend a ton of money on lawyers for these lawsuits.
00:37:10And that that those fees are going to trickle down to racing eventually.
00:37:14So, you know, we're kind of shooting ourselves in the foot a little bit with those with those lawsuits.
00:37:19But yeah, I mean, there is just I mean, the point you guys make is right about the about the outside noise and how we combat that, because, you know, people ask me and people who don't know a lot about racing will ask me, like, how do they treat the horses?
00:37:34And I got to be I got to be real with them.
00:37:35And I will say that I think like 90 to 95 percent of horses in racing are treated really well and that things are on the up and up.
00:37:45And, you know, the the horses are taken good care of and there's a lot of positive momentum, especially for thoroughbred retirement, thoroughbred aftercare.
00:37:53So there is a lot of good stuff going on.
00:37:54But I can't lie to them and say, you know, we always do right by the horses and every horse is taken care of.
00:38:00And these are these are the incidents that I'm talking about when I say when I talk about the other part of it, the underbelly, the shady side of racing.
00:38:07And until we get rid of that, until we stamp all that out, you can't sit there with a straight face and tell PETA and tell the critics of racing that we do right by all of our horses, because there are you know, there are too many people in too many racing jurisdictions, jurisdictions that are that are allowing this stuff to happen and the stuff to fester.
00:38:25And, you know, eventually it trickles up.
00:38:27And, you know, like Bill said, who knows if PETA is even going to pick up on this?
00:38:30It might be two small potatoes for them, but we know about it and we you know, we can't we can't defend our industry fully until this stuff is gotten rid of.
00:38:39And, you know, I think Hyza is trying to do that kind of thing.
00:38:42I think it's been a mess.
00:38:44It's been a you know, it's a really topsy turvy to bring that that phrase back.
00:38:50It's been a topsy turvy implementation that, you know, nobody and everybody wished it would be a little bit smoother, but at least we're trying now.
00:38:56We're trying to get all this stuff under one roof and have uniform rules.
00:38:59And I think that that there's no way that that leads to more horses getting lost in the shuffle.
00:39:05I think it can only lead to fewer horses getting lost in the shuffle like this.
00:39:09And, you know, it's it's there are guys who who are doing bad things to horses in this game that nobody, the general public will never hear about.
00:39:17But it's on us. It's on us and our conscience knowing that those people are out there.
00:39:22What are we doing to stop them?
00:39:24You know, and I don't want to spend too much time on this.
00:39:26We've already spent over like 13 minutes on it because we do want to talk about the positive things in racing.
00:39:31We have this 150th show.
00:39:33We're going to get to it later and talk about how much this show means to us.
00:39:36And, you know, I think why it's done well in the industry and that's that's positive stuff.
00:39:42But by the same token, like these kind of stories can overshadow all of the good stuff that's going on in racing.
00:39:48And I think there is so much more momentum now to protect the horses, first and foremost, than there's ever been in my lifetime, at least following racing.
00:39:57But it just it's not enough if guys like Bert and Sip are allowed to continue to race horses.
00:40:03And fortunately, it seems like now we're on the way to kicking his ass out the door.
00:40:08And he's not the last one.
00:40:09But for a guy with twenty three thousand starts and his resume, it's a big one.
00:40:14And Jeff, I can just add one more thing.
00:40:16And and I usually don't don't add things about the Internet and Twitter and things like that.
00:40:21But I want to give kudos to Maggie Moss because here's one of the most influential owners in the industry.
00:40:27And she's unafraid to put out there on Twitter all the things that are going bad in situations like this.
00:40:33And and every time a horse, every time it's no, every time I know about a horse going to a killer or a different situation that it shouldn't be in, it's because of the tweets from Maggie Moss that I understand and learn these things.
00:40:46So, you know, I want to give a tip of the cap to her because, you know, she's an outspoken owner for sure.
00:40:51And she has won a lot of races and has done very, very well.
00:40:54But she's actually actually acting as, you know, as a watchdog for some of these horses when they get put in unfortunate situations.
00:41:01And and these horses don't have a voice.
00:41:03So if you don't follow Maggie Moss on Twitter, you really should, because she's the person who is bringing it to my attention, at least, and I'm sure to a lot of people's attention.
00:41:15And it's a good follow, because if nothing else, you know, she's like our conscience right now.
00:41:19She's our Jiminy Cricket on some of these issues.
00:41:21And she's and she's very good about bringing it up.
00:41:24And I think we need to have more and more people like that when they see situations that are unfair, unjust to the to the equine athlete.
00:41:32We have to bring it up.
00:41:33Yeah, no, I agree.
00:41:34Maggie Moss, one thousand percent is a great watchdog for the industry.
00:41:38She shouldn't have to be.
00:41:39There should be people who do this, who are paid to do this, you know, who are paid to regulate and sweep bad people out of the game.
00:41:46But thank God she is there.
00:41:48And with the phrases, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
00:41:51And then Maggie Moss and a lot of other people on Twitter who started petitions about Burton's, if they deserve all the credit for this, because I don't think I don't think CDI would have done this if there were if there weren't like a groundswell against this guy.
00:42:04I think it would have just been business as usual.
00:42:06So, yes, big hat tip to Maggie Moss and the people on Twitter and people out there in racing who are in thoroughbred aftercare who have made us think about this.
00:42:14You know, we saw it with the C.H.R.B. thing last week, like that was a little less consequential, but there was such a big uproar about the C.H.R.B.
00:42:20media gag role, basically that C.H.R.B.
00:42:23quickly reversed course on that.
00:42:25So that's one of the things I like about racing is a lot of outspoken people who have their hearts in the right place.
00:42:32And we just need those people to be the vast majority of the people in racing and get more guys like Burton Sip and Marcus Vitale out of here.
00:42:41The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by the Kentucky Thoroughbred.
00:42:44Owners and breeders, Kentucky breads continue to demonstrate whether your best chance at grade one success over the weekend with Arlington Million Winner Santin and four star day winner Cassa Creed racking up grade one wins.
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00:43:40The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by XBTV.
00:44:06The XBTV Workout of the Week this week is Caravelle.
00:44:09I love Caravelle, worked four furlongs and 47.81 training on the Saratoga turf on Sunday.
00:44:15Brad Cox, trainee, won the grade three Intercontinental Stakes earlier this summer at Belmont.
00:44:20You can see that work on the screen right now.
00:44:22It's a beautiful gray daughter of Mizzenmast, who I love, one of my favorite, most underrated sires.
00:44:27I'm sure John agrees with me.
00:44:28One of the most underrated turf sires in the country.
00:44:32She's in the probables for the Smart and Fancy Stakes this weekend, which is a turf sprint for fillies and mares at Saratoga.
00:44:39So we'll probably see her as well.
00:44:40And yeah, Caravelle, very, very beautiful filly.
00:44:43Remember, she was the Liz Merriman horse, who she sold owned by Bobby Flay, and now it's Cotter Racing.
00:44:48And she's certainly at the top of her class in that division.
00:44:53So this week's weekend preview is highlighted by the Alabama Stakes, which will be run on Saturday at Saratoga.
00:44:59One of the most historic grade ones, if not the most historic grade one, outside of the Kentucky Oaks for three-year-old fillies.
00:45:06We're going to get the rematch of Nest and Secret Oaks, it looks like.
00:45:10Nest absolutely dusted her in the CCA Oaks, but Secret Oaks is the Oaks winner.
00:45:15And I think that she'll have a better showing this time around.
00:45:18And hopefully we get one or two more horses.
00:45:21And it's not a four-horse field, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.
00:45:24Speaking of short fields, we have the festival this week at York.
00:45:28We have the Juddmont International coming up in about 40 minutes.
00:45:31Bayid, who is maybe the best horse in the world, at least on turf, undefeated, just keeps going and going.
00:45:37That's a really tough task, I think, in the Juddmont International coming up.
00:45:40And then tomorrow, we've got the Yorkshire Oaks at York as well.
00:45:44Alpinista is the horse that I would keep an eye on there.
00:45:46She looked incredible last time when she won at Royal Ascot.
00:45:50So she's a really nice horse.
00:45:51So we got some stuff going on over the pond.
00:45:54But like John was saying to me before, off the air, it's not just America that has problems with short fields.
00:46:00A lot of these group one races overseas, we were seeing five, six, maybe seven horses.
00:46:05Now, obviously, overall, they have a much bigger average field size than we do.
00:46:10But in the top level racing in Europe, I think there's a lot of similar problems to America in terms of the graded stakes fields.
00:46:19But back over here, the Alabama is the big race.
00:46:22We also have the Delmar Oaks, which we'll talk about after the break.
00:46:24You get the Lake Placid at Saratoga and the Smart and Fancy, which I just mentioned in the XBTV bit.
00:46:30Any thoughts from you guys on the Alabama?
00:46:33Yeah, it looks like there's going to be five in there, Joe, and we'll know later on today.
00:46:36Nest Seeker of Gerrymander, Nostalgia and Goddess of Fire.
00:46:41You know, it's a race.
00:46:43You know, one of the good things about Saratoga so far is there's a lot of races that included showdowns or the best of the best going against one another.
00:46:52Well, I guess you could say you got that in the Alabama as well with Nest and Secret Oath.
00:46:56But is there any, you know, from the standpoint they just talked about, I'm really looking forward to what happens on the racetrack.
00:47:03To me, you know, Nest thrashed Secret Oath in the coaching club.
00:47:07Why? And it doesn't look like any of these other horses are good enough to compete with her.
00:47:11You know, she's going to be one to five, two to five.
00:47:14And there's really no reason to expect that she would get beat.
00:47:19You know, back after she won the coaching club, the connections opened the door a crack about the Travers.
00:47:24And I really wish they would have done that.
00:47:26And that's from a standpoint of wanting there to be, you know, big storylines and big races.
00:47:31If you're going to be one to five in a grade one with, I believe, a $600,000 purse, you know, I can see that that's that's just too, too much to give up to be four to one or something like that in the Travers.
00:47:42But Nest is a terrific filly.
00:47:44And but I just don't see any reason why this race won't be a carbon copy of what happened in the coaching club.
00:47:50Joe, you mentioned a couple other races, but Sunday's the Queen's Plate, by the way, and looking forward to that.
00:47:55And the favorite is going to be a filly named by the name of Mora, who comes off a big win in the Woodbine Oaks.
00:48:02And this is a fillies have won the Queen's Plate 37 times in its long history.
00:48:08And she's got to beat a horse by the name of Ron Doerr, who won the prep for this up at Woodbine.
00:48:13But, you know, it's it doesn't mean a whole lot to Americans, but to Canadians, this is their Kentucky Derby and it's Kentucky Derby Day.
00:48:20So be fun to watch the Queen's Plate on Sunday and Nest win, presumably in the Alabama.
00:48:26Then I guess, unfortunately, won't that be your last race before the Breeders Cup?
00:48:31I don't know that for a fact, but the way things are going and the way Todd Pletcher's campaigned his horses, he did the same thing with Malabat last year.
00:48:37So, you know, why would she come back and anything in between?
00:48:41I don't think it's going to happen.
00:48:42So we'll see what she does on Saturday.
00:48:44And there's one more undercard race that I wanted to highlight, and that's the Skidmore, which is for two year olds going five and a half on the turf.
00:48:52You say, John, why would you care about a listed stake?
00:48:54Well, number one, it's a Saratoga stake.
00:48:56So it does have some some interest to us on the East Coast.
00:49:00But also it's been run six times, guys, and five of the winners, five of the last six winners have all been entries in a Breeders Cup juvenile race.
00:49:12So it is a legitimate stepping stone, even though it's only a listed stake.
00:49:15It is a legitimate stepping stone for the winners to come out and then run in either the Breeders Cup turf sprint, the juvenile turf sprint, I should say, the juvenile turf, or try to transition over to the dirt and run in the overall juvenile.
00:49:30So it is an important race.
00:49:32You've got horses like Averly Jane and Golden Pal and Flame Away.
00:49:37You know, they all utilize that race to go from there up into bigger and better things in the Breeders Cup races.
00:49:44Well, and thank you to Bill for bringing up the Queen's Plate.
00:49:46I did not mean to slight our Canadian listeners or any wood-buying fans.
00:49:50It's obviously a big race, and we're going to watch it on Sunday.
00:49:53I was just scanning the stakes fields and was only looking at the graded stakes.
00:49:56Obviously, the Queen's Plate, a million dollars, but it's restricted to Ontario breds.
00:50:01So that's, or is it Canadian?
00:50:02Is it all Canadian?
00:50:03It's Canadian.
00:50:03I mean, there's, I think, 98% of the good horses in Canada are.
00:50:07But if you've got a good Saskatchewan bred, bring them on down.
00:50:09They'll let them run in the Queen's Plate.
00:50:12Exactly.
00:50:13So, yeah, we'll keep an eye on that as well.
00:50:15We're going to get to the rest of the races that we're looking forward to this weekend after this break from Three Chimneys.
00:50:20Three Chimneys' outstanding young sire, Gunrunner, has several maidens to watch out for this week,
00:50:24including Outperform, who runs on Friday at Saratoga for Todd Pletcher and Rapali Stable.
00:50:29Gunrunner had his latest TDN Rising Star last week with Disarm,
00:50:32who broke his maiden for Steve Asmussen and Ron Winchell at Saratoga last Saturday.
00:50:37Gunrunner now has five TDN Rising Stars,
00:50:39and his list of Grade 1 winners already includes Champion Echo Zulu, Cyberknife,
00:50:44Early Voting, Tayba, and recent Amsterdam Stakes winner.
00:50:47That's a Grade 2.
00:50:48But recent Amsterdam Stakes winner, Gunite, he was a Grade 1 winner last year.
00:50:52So I was looking at the TDN sire list last week.
00:50:56I have the top sires of three-year-olds this year.
00:51:00Gunrunner is so far ahead of everybody else, including Into Mischief.
00:51:04It's just wild to see him in only his second year have those kind of stats for three-year-olds.
00:51:10He's obviously had a tremendous, tremendous start to his career.
00:51:13And like I said last week, I think that the stallion farms are going to start snapping up
00:51:17those Grade 1 winners to stand the first really good sons of Gunrunner as well.
00:51:21And it just goes to show, you know, we talk about there's too many stallions overall in the country.
00:51:26When you get one like Gunrunner and they can kind of reshape the breed in this short amount of time,
00:51:31it really is a special thing.
00:51:33That's what everybody is looking for.
00:51:34So we'll be right back after this message from Three Chimneys.
00:52:02Gunrunner's on top of the world!
00:52:04Come dream with us at Three Chimneys.
00:52:12And it's all Tyler's Tribe to the final furlong.
00:52:16He's putting on another show tonight.
00:52:18He is eight lengths in front.
00:52:20Now it's 10. Now it's 12.
00:52:22Tyler's Tribe pouring it on as they come down to the line.
00:52:26He's going to win by double digits.
00:52:28And he stops the clock in 104.
00:52:33All right, just to put a little bit of a bow on this weekend's this week's weekend preview presented by Three Chimneys.
00:52:43We also have the Delmar Oaks on Saturday, which is a Grade 1 for three-year-old fillies on the turf.
00:52:48Goes for a mile, goes a mile and an eighth.
00:52:51Interesting field. I think it's going to get a pretty big field in that race.
00:52:56That's one of the things I like about those three-year-old turf filly races.
00:52:59I think in general you get pretty big fields in there.
00:53:01But the horse that I'll have an eye on, and I'm not 1,000% sure that she's starting,
00:53:05because I'm just looking at the probables, but Svenderella, who I mentioned at Royal Ascot,
00:53:09ran a big second in the coronation stakes behind Alpinista, who's going to be in the Yorkshire Oaks,
00:53:14who I mentioned tomorrow.
00:53:16She's such a nice filly for Graham Motion.
00:53:18I want to see what she can do when she comes back to the States,
00:53:21because he had Sherring, who I was a big fan of, win the Breeders' Cup juvenile fillies,
00:53:26then go over and run second in the coronation.
00:53:28But she never quite got back to that top form when she came back to America.
00:53:32So I'm going to be interested to see what Svenderella does if we do indeed see her on Saturday.
00:53:37And then, like I said, we got the Lake Placid as well.
00:53:40Guys, do we need two three-year-old filly turf stakes on the same day?
00:53:45I get that they're across the country from each other,
00:53:47but can we have some kind of coordination here
00:53:51that we don't have these overlapping races on the exact same day on the calendar?
00:53:56But the Lake Placid usually does get a pretty good field at Saratoga,
00:54:00so we'll keep an eye on that.
00:54:01And also, we got the Islin at Monmouth, which, you know, that's one of those races that I feel like you could upgrade, honestly.
00:54:08All the horses that have won it over the years and that have been in it,
00:54:10I'm not sure who's going to be in this year's field, but it's been stuck at a grade three for a while.
00:54:14So even though, like, I think overall we should be downgrading stakes,
00:54:16Islin's one of those that I think produces some good horses.
00:54:19Maybe you can make the argument for a grade two.
00:54:21So Saratoga this Saturday, the Alabama Lake Placid,
00:54:25obviously the international action going on at York today and the rest of the week,
00:54:28and the Delmar Oaks, which is a grade one on Saturday.
00:54:32Stuff to keep an eye on.
00:54:34The TDN Riders room is brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds.
00:54:37West Point is now up to 999 wins.
00:54:40So close for that thousand after their Philly Kodama won an allowance at Delaware Park over the weekend.
00:54:45West Point has several runners in for this weekend,
00:54:47including Brigadier General taking on Stakes Company in the St.
00:54:50Louis Derby on Saturday.
00:54:52We're hoping we'll be able to celebrate their 1,000th win next week.
00:54:57Love all the friends at West Point.
00:54:58They were obviously very busy at the sales over the past week and a half as well.
00:55:02And, you know, they surely have a bunch more monster two-year-olds to unveil the rest of the year.
00:55:07I'm hoping it comes in Saratoga, that thousandth win. Be a little anticlimactic if it came somewhere else.
00:55:13But, you know, wherever it comes, it's well-deserved for West Point.
00:55:17And so good luck to all the partners on getting that milestone,
00:55:20hopefully in the next few days. We'll be right back after this message from West Point Thoroughbreds.
00:55:27All the thrills. Fraction of the bills.
00:55:35Experience the power of the partnership. Change your life.
00:55:42Make new friends and compete at the highest level of thoroughbred racing.
00:55:48West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
00:55:52Visit WestPointTV.com. Being a small family business, I guess we're part of a dying breed.
00:55:59We're really grateful for the people that entrust us.
00:56:01We know it's a huge responsibility. We're always with your horse every step of the way.
00:56:07When it comes to being at the sales ground, showing your horses,
00:56:10we are with your horse. Just driving up down the road every day.
00:56:13There's not a time that I don't look out and feel a responsibility to the sport,
00:56:17the animal, the people that come to invest in the game.
00:56:20I want to see as many people enjoy this sport as they possibly can
00:56:22because we do have the most beautiful sport in the world.
00:56:27The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Legacy Bloodstock.
00:56:30If you think that 50 years combined experience in the horse business could benefit your program,
00:56:34give Tommy or Wendy a call. They personally advise on each horse as if they were their own.
00:56:38Legacy was on site this week at the Fasig-Tifton New York Red Sale.
00:56:42They can sign a bolt door cult that I think John has some comments on
00:56:45that brought $195,000. It was the second highest selling bolt door of the sale.
00:56:50They also have almost a hundred yearlings catalogued for the upcoming Keeneland September sale.
00:56:55So we'll be taking a look at a few of those entries in the coming weeks.
00:56:57I know you guys are working super hard. So best of luck coming up at Keeneland September.
00:57:01And John, yeah, what did you think about the bolt door?
00:57:04You know, I had two people shortlisting for us at the New York Red Sale
00:57:08and the Bolt Bureau ended up on both of their lists.
00:57:11So I texted Tommy, you know, before the sale and just asked him about the horse
00:57:14and he gave me a lot of details about the horse.
00:57:16And you could just tell that he was very intimate with the horse.
00:57:20He knew every single thing that was going on with the horse,
00:57:23told us a couple of things that we needed to know as far as personality.
00:57:27And it was just great to have that kind of connection with Tommy.
00:57:30And he was very forthright about the horse, you know,
00:57:33and the horse way outsold, I think, even his expectations.
00:57:37They almost got $200,000 for the horse and he was really worth it.
00:57:41You know, it was the kind of thing where the Bolt Euros are running, which helps.
00:57:45But the Colt, this Colt in particular, really, really showed himself well.
00:57:49And that's why, you know, when they only bring one horse up to a sale like that,
00:57:54it's because he's the goods. And I know we said that pre-sale,
00:57:56but I can tell you post-sale that Tommy Wendy did a phenomenal job with this horse
00:58:00and the horse sold really, really well.
00:58:03This week's Remy cartoon gives us a look at the Ye Olde Rules of Racing book.
00:58:08Honestly, I wish we had that. I wish we had that book.
00:58:11That would be an upgrade over what we currently have,
00:58:13but it's got a bunch of post-it notes sticking out of it
00:58:16and a little little tube of whiteout with Heise printed on it that I think whiteout,
00:58:22the whiteout is significant in that Heise is going to try to come into this Ye Olde Books of,
00:58:27Book of Racing Rules and try to fix things without actually overturning everything.
00:58:33And I think that that's that's the goal of Heise right now.
00:58:35And shout out to Remy because yeah, that's what I think is going on for sure.
00:58:39It's a little messy, but at least we got some whiteout on the case for now.
00:58:44All right. So we wanted to do this before we signed up. This is our 150th episode.
00:58:48We made a big deal about 50 and a big deal about a hundred.
00:58:51Not as making as big. I feel like this is like an old marriage
00:58:54where you make a less of a deal about the anniversaries over time.
00:58:58Like you celebrate the 10th one and the 20th one and overtime.
00:59:01It's like, let's just get dinner and go to sleep early.
00:59:03Maybe pass out on the couch watching TV.
00:59:05But no, I but it's always nice to reach this milestone and it's,
00:59:09you know, we're we're honored and we're flattered that people love the show enough.
00:59:13That's lasted 150 episodes like that. That's a pretty damn good run.
00:59:16We're approaching like mash levels of episodes here in terms of long-running syndication.
00:59:22But you know, I just obviously appreciate you guys.
00:59:25I appreciate Bill and John and I still love doing the show,
00:59:28you know, I still love getting on here and BS'ing with you guys
00:59:31and debating and going back and forth because you know, I respect you guys's opinion so much,
00:59:35but also, you know, all the people behind the scenes that work on the show like Patty
00:59:39and Katie and Aaliyah and Anthony and Nathan and all the sponsors as well who have jumped in overtime
00:59:44and helped us, you know, really really grow the show
00:59:47and it's really hit home for me honestly being at Saratoga
00:59:50because I run into a lot of people and you know,
00:59:54people will come up to me or DM me and say like, you know,
00:59:56that they're they're big listeners and talk about how much they love the show.
00:59:59Bobby Flay, you know, shout out to Bobby.
01:00:01I saw him at dinner on Friday night and we talked for like 10 minutes.
01:00:04He was talking about how much he loves the show, which is obviously an honor
01:00:07and you know, I think it really has occupied a place in this industry
01:00:11that did not necessarily exist before at least in podcast form
01:00:15where we talk about the issues of the day.
01:00:17We don't sugarcoat anything and we're honest
01:00:19and clear-eyed about what needs to be done and what needs to be fixed in racing.
01:00:22We're not always right, obviously.
01:00:24Sometimes we get on here and talk out of our ass
01:00:26and the people in the comments are always very, very quick to tell us when we're doing that.
01:00:30But I think overall we've had a lot of great guests on the show
01:00:33and I think it does provide a service to the industry.
01:00:36And like I said, we couldn't do it without Bill and John and everybody behind the scenes.
01:00:40What about you guys?
01:00:41Yeah, I mean, I want to thank all the guests
01:00:43because 150 shows, we've had some duplicates,
01:00:47you know, guys like Mark Cassie have been on more than that,
01:00:49but I probably have about 120 different guests that have come on
01:00:54and, you know, some of the names, the TDN brand definitely helps us
01:00:58because we're getting people that probably wouldn't do this
01:01:02if, you know, a guy named John was doing, not John Green,
01:01:05a guy named John Smith was doing it out of his basement or something like that.
01:01:08And I really enjoy the talk with them,
01:01:11you know, and being able to get the insights from people in the industry.
01:01:16And, you know, and I think people when they come on,
01:01:19and not everyone, but they kind of know that it's going to be an honest discussion
01:01:24of the topics in racing.
01:01:26And, you know, I think for that, you know, we've been able to,
01:01:29you know, get people to feel comfortable with talking to us
01:01:32and, you know, taking a deep dive into some of the issues.
01:01:37You know, and also like it every once in a while,
01:01:39being a reporter, I still like it when we break news in here.
01:01:42And I remember, you know, some things I remember,
01:01:44Aiden Butler, to the best of my knowledge,
01:01:46the first time he ever talked about there being a synthetic surface
01:01:48at Gulfstream was on this show.
01:01:51And we had Travis Tigard on a couple times,
01:01:55but the last time he was on, he kept saying,
01:01:58if, if, if, if, if, when it came to USADA and getting involved with HISA.
01:02:03And I give you credit because I didn't pick up on that.
01:02:05And you had said afterwards, hey, why does he keep saying if,
01:02:08why isn't this a done deal?
01:02:10And, you know, we foreshadowed what was to come there.
01:02:12But I'm with you guys, you know, I do a lot of different things.
01:02:16I like some more than others,
01:02:17but this is a thing that's easy to like to do.
01:02:19And, and I appreciate the listeners too,
01:02:21because, you know, people do listen,
01:02:24they do tune in and without them, we'd be nowhere.
01:02:28Well, and for me that the show has done a number of things.
01:02:31Number one, it makes me focus and do my homework every week,
01:02:36because if I have to, you know, match wits with you guys and go through,
01:02:40you know, races and go through sales and go through,
01:02:43you know, interesting topics.
01:02:46I know I spend a lot of time,
01:02:47you guys obviously spend more time than I do even,
01:02:49but I spend a lot of time kind of going through and making sure
01:02:51that we add an educated view point to this.
01:02:55Because I think as Joe mentioned before,
01:02:57you know, people who are listeners really enjoy hearing a different viewpoint.
01:03:01And they, some people have come up to us at sales and at races
01:03:05and have thanked us for being the voice of reason.
01:03:07I don't know if we're the voice of reason necessarily,
01:03:10but I know that this podcast has given me a platform to provide information,
01:03:16you know, from an owner standpoint,
01:03:17and it's made me a better manager of my horses
01:03:20and it's made me more conscientious of how to handle horses,
01:03:24you know, when the racing career is over.
01:03:26And it's certainly, you know, made me a better person primarily
01:03:29because I feel like that I have to, you know, match wits with you guys,
01:03:32which isn't always an easy thing week in and week out.
01:03:35It's also, personally, it's increased my exposure,
01:03:38you know, for the industry.
01:03:38And I know, I know there's no way that I would have been elected onto the three boards
01:03:43and the Breeders' Cup if it wasn't for this show
01:03:46and if it wasn't for you guys pushing me to be, you know, a better steward of the industry.
01:03:52And there's been a couple of shows that, over the years,
01:03:55that really kind of, you know, hit home for me.
01:03:57And I kind of went through some of the 150 shows.
01:04:01And, you know, the first show, guys, it was you two and Alan.
01:04:04And it was 38 minutes back in August of 19, and there was no guest.
01:04:08And that was, you know, you broke through kind of a glass ceiling by having a podcast.
01:04:12And then, you know, the following week, it was 41 minutes long.
01:04:16I was, you know, invited into the show.
01:04:18As you guys mentioned, I haven't left since.
01:04:20You know, you're going to have to get me kicking and screaming to leave here.
01:04:23Ironically enough, the following week, you know, 9-11 of 19, our listenership actually decreased.
01:04:29And I'm sure it had to do with the fact that I was on the second show,
01:04:31which is why the third show wasn't as well received.
01:04:34But, you know, then we started picking up steam.
01:04:36You know, we learned that we could kind of, you know, pick on each other a little bit and needle each other a little bit.
01:04:41And we didn't always have to agree with each other.
01:04:42And that was OK. So by the time that show 27 came around,
01:04:47when the indictments were handed down by by the U.S. attorney's office,
01:04:51you know, we could all really get raw and emotional about it.
01:04:55And I think that to me, that's really when the show turned a corner,
01:04:58was at that show in March of 20, when we were able to discuss,
01:05:02you know, pretty much the way we felt about the indictments and about the way the industry was going.
01:05:07And the fact that, you know, it was a bittersweet day.
01:05:09We, you know, about it was a negative day with the indictments.
01:05:12But could it be positive down the road? And now, like two and a half years later,
01:05:15we're starting to see, you know, that things are really going in the right direction.
01:05:19And and humbly, I'd like to think that we have a lot to do with that,
01:05:22that, you know, that this show gives us, you know, the opportunity and the voice to talk about some of the difficult problems
01:05:29that are going on with the industry and more importantly, how to how to fix them.
01:05:33You know, and those are just some of the shows that I remember.
01:05:35There's one show in particular that episode 31, when when we were,
01:05:40you know, we're in a covid lockdown and we had to do our first show via Zoom.
01:05:44And Patty, I think you have a picture of this, but look at Joe's hair, for God's sake.
01:05:47I mean, you talk about, you know, retrospective.
01:05:49I mean, Joe is like he's sporting, he's sporting the covid fro there.
01:05:54I mean, it really it really is kind of funny.
01:05:56And then episode 35, we went to a Brady Bunch, you know, type teaser where we're looking around and stuff.
01:06:01And yeah, it was goofy, but it was really, really fun.
01:06:04It was fun to do. And then we did a couple of roadshows.
01:06:06You know, we got to go to OBS, we got to go to Saratoga.
01:06:09We all went to Keeneland, you know, and that was really, really fun, too.
01:06:12But at the end of the day for me, it really comes down to, you know,
01:06:17the listeners, obviously, that give us feedback and tell us when we're when we're doing right.
01:06:20And when we're not, when we need to improve our game.
01:06:22And there are certainly times, you know, where that happens.
01:06:25You guys thank a lot of people. And I really want to end this by thanking, with all sincerity,
01:06:30thanking Patty Wolfe and Sue Finley, our leader, because this is their love child.
01:06:35This was their idea of putting, you know, three knuckleheads on display to talk about,
01:06:42you know, our feelings about the industry. And for the most part,
01:06:46they've given us carte blanche to talk the way we want to talk and to express our feelings the way we want to.
01:06:52I think I get, you know, nicked a couple of times as far as going a little bit over the line.
01:06:57And thankfully, you know, Patty and Sue can can pull me back into reality so we don't get sued.
01:07:03But I really want to thank Patty and Sue for giving us the opportunity to talk about this industry that we all love.
01:07:10And at the end of the day, we all love horse racing.
01:07:13We all want it to thrive. We all want it to continue. And we look at it from very different viewpoints.
01:07:18And guys, I can't also thank you enough for your friendship and your support over the three years,
01:07:24because really, you know, I was a stranger to you guys and vice versa when we started the show.
01:07:29And I feel a real kinship to you guys. And I know we give each other, you know,
01:07:32a lot of shit and hard times sometimes, but I really feel it's all out of love and respect.
01:07:36And I want to thank you guys also for making me a better horseman and a better manager and a better podcaster.
01:07:42Yeah. And it's all about, to me, this show is all about love and respect and good faith.
01:07:47You know, I have a lot of love and respect for you guys. I have a lot of love and respect for our listeners.
01:07:52And it's about good faith in that. I think one of the reasons, like Bill was saying,
01:07:56that so many people do come on the show is I think that they know that we're operating in good faith
01:08:00from a place of good where we want to change the industry for the better.
01:08:04That's why we're doing this. That's why we started this.
01:08:07And, you know, John said we'll take a little credit for it.
01:08:10I will 1000% take credit for some of the reforms that have come along in racing,
01:08:15because I don't think that there is a similar voice doing this kind of thing still to this day.
01:08:19So, yeah, all about love and respect for y'all and for everybody that listens.
01:08:23And, you know, we appreciate every single person who's ever dropped a line,
01:08:27who's ever sent a comment or told us how much they love the show.
01:08:31You know, it really does mean a lot.
01:08:33And it keeps us going to know that people are out there listening and really care and are really about what we're trying to do.
01:08:39It means it means everything to us.
01:08:41And shout out to you guys, because obviously wouldn't wouldn't be able to happen without Bill and John.
01:08:45And I appreciate your perspectives.
01:08:47And yeah, yeah, there we go.
01:08:49Let's throw up the hearts.
01:08:51Bill will never do it.
01:08:51He's there it is.
01:08:53There it is.
01:08:54There we go.
01:08:56It only took 150 shows.
01:08:58Virtual group hug.
01:09:00We'll leave it at that.
01:09:01But yeah.
01:09:02All right.
01:09:02So that's going to do it for this week's 150th episode of the TDN Writers Room presented by Keeneland.
01:09:08Don't forget the Keeneland September Yearling Sale begins Monday, September 12th.
01:09:12That catalog is online now.
01:09:13You can learn more at theworldyearlingsale.com.
01:09:17I want to thank very sincerely Bill Finley, John Green, our Green Group Guest of the Week,
01:09:22Tyler Gaff-Leon, our producer Patty Wolf, our associate producer Katie Petruniak, and our editors,
01:09:27Anthony LaRocca, Aliyah LaRocca, Nathan Wilkinson.
01:09:30Thank you so much for all the support through 150 episodes.

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