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00:00:00They say, the harder the work, the greater the reward.
00:00:18This is our life's work.
00:00:21Good morning, it is 909, Wednesday, April 20th.
00:00:28This is the TDN Writer's Room, presented by Keeneland.
00:00:31My name is Joe Bianca.
00:00:32I'm the Associate Editor of the Thoroughbred Daily News, and I'm wearing this hat in tribute
00:00:36to our missing colleague, John Green, and also as a reminder for John to send me some
00:00:39new hats.
00:00:40Good morning, I'm Bill Finley, a correspondent for Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:00:45I already hear, Joe, you can't see it because I'm wearing the zip, the quarter zip or whatever,
00:00:50but I have my helium t-shirt on underneath this.
00:00:53So remember the long-forgotten helium who won the Tampa Bay Derby, and then John sprung
00:00:58for these t-shirts for us.
00:00:59So we love John, but we love him even more when he gives us this swag.
00:01:03Exactly.
00:01:04Us media types, we love free food and free swag.
00:01:07That's two things about us.
00:01:08There you go.
00:01:10The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:01:12The catalog is now online for the April Horses of Racing Age sale after the races on closing
00:01:17day of the spring meet, which is Friday, April 29th.
00:01:20Approved supplements will be accepted up until sale date.
00:01:23You can visit april.keeneland.com for more details.
00:01:27So it's a little bit of a light show this week.
00:01:30We've got a couple of kind of broad scope stories we're going to talk about, and then we'll
00:01:33do a little bit of racing before we sign off.
00:01:35We're all really prepping for the Keeneland show next week.
00:01:38I'm really excited for that.
00:01:39Bill mentioned this in his weekend review and something we've touched on before in the
00:01:43past when we talked about Pennsylvania and the potential of the slot money going away
00:01:48from Pennsylvania. But Pompano Park, which was a pretty popular harness track in Florida,
00:01:53closed over the weekend because the state made it so that the casino money could be
00:01:59separated from the racetrack operations.
00:02:01But Bill knows more about it, so I'll toss it to him.
00:02:04Yeah, Joe, I mean, you would think, why are we on the Thoroughbred podcast talking about
00:02:08Pompano Park? Why was I writing the Thoroughbred Daily News about a harness track?
00:02:13Because this is a much bigger story than just Pompano Park.
00:02:16And, you know, we talked about it with Pennsylvania, as you said, we had similar problems in
00:02:20Canada a few years ago that, you know, the horse racing is so reliant on slot machine
00:02:26money and revenue from casinos.
00:02:29What is the future of this?
00:02:30And we all know at some point in time, this is not sustainable, that the casino companies
00:02:36that run racetracks don't want to run racetracks.
00:02:39They have a lot of political clout.
00:02:40I'm sure they contribute heavily to various legislators, you know, re-election campaigns,
00:02:47et cetera. The casino companies want to get out of the racing business.
00:02:50Can they do it? Well, they're tied to racing, but can they move the ball down the lane
00:02:57so that they can what is called decoupling?
00:03:00And by and large, we haven't seen really anything too serious when it comes to this.
00:03:07But now in Florida, they passed a bill where all the paramutual facilities, but Gulfstream
00:03:13and Tampa, the two thoroughbred facilities, can decouple.
00:03:16I mean, I think within five minutes of Ron DeSantis signing that, Pompano Park said, oh,
00:03:20by the way, we're done. And now they can't close Gulfstream and Tampa Bay Downs, which is
00:03:25the good news. I don't think they would anyways.
00:03:27But this is a much bigger story.
00:03:29Is this the first of a domino effect that we're going to see where we are going to see
00:03:33decoupling? It has to happen.
00:03:35The casino companies eventually are going to win this battle.
00:03:39The horsemen's groups mainly have been fighting on the side of the good guys have done a
00:03:43great job doing it.
00:03:44But, you know, the governor of Pennsylvania keeps trying to pull this off.
00:03:48Like and like I said, it's always on the front burner in these other states.
00:03:51So it is a cautionary tale.
00:03:53What happened at Pompano Park?
00:03:55Can it happen to XYZ Downs?
00:03:58Can it happen in this state?
00:03:59Can it happen in that state?
00:04:00It absolutely can.
00:04:02And I hate to say it, it's going to happen sooner or later.
00:04:05I don't know if we're going to see massive decouplings within the next three or four
00:04:09years, but we're going down this path, whether we like it or not.
00:04:13And I'm not sure there's a whole lot can be done about it.
00:04:16But, you know, Pompano Park, if it can happen there, a track that's an historic track in
00:04:21Florida had great years, was once the winter capital of harness racing.
00:04:26It can happen almost anywhere.
00:04:27Yeah. And I wonder, you know, there's two sides of this coin, because on the one hand,
00:04:32you know, we've seen we've seen what companies like Churchill Downs will take advantage of
00:04:37to try to close tracks that they don't particularly have an interest in running.
00:04:41We saw with Calder, with that loophole to where they put up the high light front ends
00:04:46and we're able to close Calder.
00:04:49And we've seen also Churchill try to get out of the business in Illinois, which we all
00:04:53agree was a travesty to close Arlington Park.
00:04:56But I wonder on the flip side of that, you know, we talk on the show about the need for
00:05:00consolidation in this sport and that there are too many tracks still running relative
00:05:06to the demand that there is for racing in America, especially in some of these smaller
00:05:10circuits. And listen, I'm not going to get up here and say your track should close.
00:05:13Your track should close. Obviously, there are people who need to make a living wherever
00:05:17there's racing. But I just wonder if if this kind of becomes the natural selection
00:05:24of racing, because like you said, it's not going to happen at Gulfstream.
00:05:27It's like having a Tampa. It's not going to happen in New York.
00:05:29It's probably not going to happen in California.
00:05:31It's probably going to happen in some of these smaller, smaller, less racing involved
00:05:36states. So I wonder, Bill, do you think that this is necessarily something that's a
00:05:40threat nationwide or is it only a threat to the smaller, less utilized, lower handled
00:05:46tracks? Well, Joe, you made a couple of good points there.
00:05:49And number one, I mean, you're right.
00:05:51And again, I don't want to point the finger at any individual racetrack and say this
00:05:55place should close. But we all know there's way too much racing, particularly there's
00:05:59way too much bad racing out there.
00:06:01And I think the sport would be overall better off if there was some detraction there.
00:06:07And there would be if it weren't for the casinos.
00:06:09You know, I've said this. There are dozens of tracks that would not be in business
00:06:13today if it weren't for their attachment to the casinos.
00:06:16But, you know, but but there's also another level of this that we haven't talked about.
00:06:21I mean, I don't think, for instance, in New York, I don't think that anything is
00:06:26imminent in New York.
00:06:27They seem to have the Naira and the horsemen and whatever seem to have good
00:06:30relationships with government and whatnot.
00:06:33But what if you took the slot money away from New York racing?
00:06:37It's about 35 percent of the purse money.
00:06:41Racing would continue in New York.
00:06:44But those $80,000 purses would then be $50,000 purses.
00:06:48And with the casino slot, historical racing money just inundating, coming in like
00:06:55they're printing money in the basement at Oakland and in Kentucky.
00:06:59Could New York racing be on the same par as Kentucky?
00:07:04So you have those kind of separate issues there.
00:07:06But, you know, let's go back to and even like take a place like Pennsylvania, which
00:07:10is somewhere in between.
00:07:12It's not New York, but it's not Charlestown either.
00:07:15And this is where the governor unsuccessfully, but on two occasions, has tried
00:07:20to take all the casino money away from Pennsylvania.
00:07:24I don't think any of the racetracks in Pennsylvania could survive without it.
00:07:29I think they would close the next day and then you would lose a good racetrack in
00:07:33parks and races like the Pennsylvania Derby and the Cotillion.
00:07:36So there are so many different chapters to this or branches you could go down.
00:07:41But, you know, back to your original point.
00:07:42Yeah, I mean, it is kind of good news, bad news.
00:07:45I think by and large, we don't want this to happen at all because it's a slippery
00:07:50slope. And that's what I try to point out with the story about Pompano.
00:07:53This just isn't about Pompano.
00:07:55Caesars Entertainment figured out a way to do this.
00:07:57And I don't know if they own any other tracks or not, but you can darn well they
00:08:01do that. The executives are sitting in their offices in Las Vegas as we speak,
00:08:04saying, OK, we did this in Florida.
00:08:06How are we going to do this in this state or that state?
00:08:08And and then their competitors, MGM or whomever, is going to say the same thing.
00:08:13So I think by and large, we don't want to see this happen because, you know, the
00:08:17real fear is this is a trickle.
00:08:20One racetrack, a harness racetrack in that in a state where they said you can't do
00:08:26it with Thoroughbred Racing.
00:08:27But does this open up the floodgates?
00:08:29I think that's the real story here.
00:08:32Yeah. And like you said, Pompano in your story, Pompano is a popular place relative
00:08:36for harness tracks.
00:08:37So and same thing with Arlington, like obviously a different situation somewhere with
00:08:41Arlington. But I think it's it's one of those things where, like I said, natural
00:08:44selection. It shouldn't happen to tracks where there is a lot of business and there
00:08:49is growth. And there is actually an attempt, like you said in your story, from the
00:08:53management at Pompano to advertise and market and bring more people to track and
00:08:57bring more handle. You said that they had had record handle basically over the past
00:09:02few years relative to what they had.
00:09:04And I think that those are the tracks they need to stick around.
00:09:06My only point on the flip side is that slot money has become, I think, a crutch for a
00:09:12lot of racetracks and a lot of people who run racetracks to where there is no
00:09:16incentive to grow the product.
00:09:17There is no incentive to market and bring in more wagering dollars because they're
00:09:21always going to have that slot revenue to underwrite all of their expenses.
00:09:25So I think that that yeah, I would agree that if we can make if we can make it so that
00:09:30always the crappy tracks get thrown out, like I think that that necessarily would not
00:09:35be a terrible thing for racing.
00:09:36But like you said, there's no there's no real stopping that snowball once it starts
00:09:40going downhill. Once these states are realizing that they can and these companies
00:09:45start realizing that they can cut costs by getting rid of racing.
00:09:48I agree that it's going to be hard to control if this kind of thing, right?
00:09:52You know, it's also needs to look at itself in the mirror and there are no easy answers
00:09:56to this, I understand. But let's go back to Arlington Park, which is not really a
00:10:00decoupling situation, but it's where it falls into its own category.
00:10:03But if Arlington Park, you know, I don't know if it was losing a ton of money, losing
00:10:10a little bit of money, mildly profitable, but we could rest assured that it was not
00:10:13really a very profitable operation.
00:10:16You have a racetrack in Chicago, third biggest city in the country, I believe, with a
00:10:21great history, a beautiful facility.
00:10:24But it wasn't making enough money for Churchill Downs to say, we're going to keep it
00:10:30going now. They weren't going to put the casino there because they didn't want to
00:10:33compete with the other casino.
00:10:35But if Churchill Downs at the bottom of at the end of the year was looking at their
00:10:41ledger sheets and saying, wow, we made twenty five million dollars.
00:10:45I'm just picking that number out of out of the blue sky running Arlington Park last
00:10:49year. It wouldn't have been closed down.
00:10:51You know that racetracks on their own, these racetracks are either unprofitable or just
00:10:57barely squeaking by on the racing product.
00:11:00That's a huge problem. How do you change that?
00:11:02I don't know that you can.
00:11:03And that gets back to, you know, Gulfstream Park, you know, and the Stornick Group is
00:11:09we like the Stornick Group for a lot of reasons, one of which is they like horse
00:11:12racing. So I'm sure they made no effort whatsoever to get Gulfstream involved in this
00:11:16decoupling thing. But why is Gulfstream not going anywhere?
00:11:20Because they handle on Florida Derby Day forty five million dollars.
00:11:24That's why. And whereas, you know, Pompano Park up the road up ninety five was all
00:11:29excited about they had a one point seven million dollar handle.
00:11:32They handle that on the first race at Gulfstream of the day.
00:11:36So, you know, again, horse racing needs to look itself in the mirror and it's above our
00:11:41pay grade to figure out how to solve these problems.
00:11:44But, you know, if you want a horse racing to stick around at a place like Arlington
00:11:47Park, if you don't want it to go away at parks, find a way to make it more successful
00:11:51and profitable. Is there a magic bullet?
00:11:54Probably not. But yeah, let's not completely just whine and complain about all this big
00:11:59bad casino company put us out of business.
00:12:01Well, they wouldn't be putting you out of business if you were making money.
00:12:04TDN Writers Room was brought to you by Keeneland.
00:12:07We'll be at Keeneland next week.
00:12:08Can't wait. Be sure to check out the catalog for the April Horses of Racing Age sale.
00:12:12Mystic Knight, who was an impressive allowance winner on Friday at Keeneland, is going to
00:12:16be selling his hip 61 with tailor made sales.
00:12:18There are going to be many other active up and coming racehorses offered that day.
00:12:22I looked at the catalog. Actually, a lot of really, really nice horses that you could
00:12:26probably turn around in a quick time and then race this summer and this fall.
00:12:30So definitely check out the catalog.
00:12:32It was a great weekend of racing at Keeneland as well last week.
00:12:34And there were several high profile Keeneland sales grads in the winner's circle, including
00:12:38grade one Jenny Wiley Sticks winner Regal Glory.
00:12:41Chad Brown, as we're going to talk about a little bit later, picked up his record fifth
00:12:44win in the Jenny Wiley.
00:12:46Regal Glory was picked up for nine hundred twenty five thousand dollars at last year's
00:12:49Keeneland January sale and grade three Stone Street Lexington winner Tawny Port was a
00:12:54four hundred thirty thousand dollar Keeneland September graduate.
00:12:57Now we look forward to this coming week of racing.
00:12:58We'll talk a little bit more about it later, putting the grade three double dog there on
00:13:02Friday and the grade two Elkhorn and grade three Ben Ali at stakes on Saturday.
00:13:06Then just a few days later, as I mentioned, we'll be on site at Keeneland for our live
00:13:10show. Really looking forward to it.
00:13:12We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:13:16With all eyes on the bluegrass this spring, there's no better way to take in the action
00:13:20than Friday, April twenty ninth at Keeneland.
00:13:25And they're off. We get into it with hip number one.
00:13:28Good luck. Featuring a day filled with world class racing, followed by a unique sales
00:13:32experience in the evening, the April Horses of Racing Age sale after the races on closing
00:13:38day of the spring. Follow the action this April to Keeneland.
00:13:46It was just put together like a machine and he had a great mind.
00:13:49Everything about him was what you'd want.
00:13:51Here's the law.
00:13:52Pops the court in the champagne.
00:13:54Here's the law is going to win the first leg of the Triple Crown.
00:13:58I've never seen him get tired.
00:13:59Respect the law.
00:14:01He's the law.
00:14:02His structure is just perfect.
00:14:04His bone is perfect.
00:14:06He's left the others behind.
00:14:07He's going to win the run.
00:14:08Happy Travers.
00:14:09He's everything you would look for in a horse.
00:14:16The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Coolmore.
00:14:18We're just one session into the OBS April two year old sale, but Coolmore sires are
00:14:22already making headlines.
00:14:23Uncle Mo had the session one topper yesterday after breezing in nine and four.
00:14:27The two year old Colt brought two point three million dollars going to Gary Young
00:14:31earlier in the day.
00:14:32Justify had a cold who breezed in ten flat sell for six hundred thousand.
00:14:36Cupid, my boy, can't wait to see you next week at his first step, his first champion
00:14:41last week when his son, God of Love, was named Canadian champion two year old male.
00:14:45So congratulations to the connections.
00:14:47They're trained by Mark Cassie.
00:14:48The Colt won last year's Cup and Saucer Stakes and Grade three Gray Stakes at
00:14:52Woodbine. American Pharoah was also represented by Canadian champion, older
00:14:56main track female Sky Gaze, who won last year's Grade three Maple Leaf Stakes and
00:15:01first Crop Sire Motown had his first winner last Wednesday at Keeneland after his
00:15:05son, Mr.
00:15:06Gordy, named after obviously the Motown founder, won on debut for trainer John
00:15:10Hancock.
00:15:11Motown has about a dozen two year olds up for grabs this week at OBS, so definitely
00:15:15take a look if you're down in Ocala.
00:15:18All right, so in the last segment, we talked about something that kind of has a
00:15:21negative portent for for racing's future.
00:15:23Perhaps this is something that I think is a positive development and especially for the
00:15:27horses themselves going forward.
00:15:29Dan Ross had a really fascinating story last week in the TV and called the missing
00:15:34link. Actually, earlier this week, the missing link to end fatal musculoskeletal
00:15:38injuries, question mark.
00:15:39And it's about these these new initiatives that veterinarians and some tracks are
00:15:45taking on to try to detect horses who have potentially fatal underlying issues
00:15:52before they come to the forefront, before the horses actually break down themselves.
00:15:57This is something that California, I think, has done a good job on, has been at the
00:16:01forefront of ever since those injuries a handful of years ago with the PET scans and
00:16:06the MRI scans to try to detect these injuries before they happen and racehorses.
00:16:11But now it's happening in other big jurisdictions.
00:16:13Naira is implementing a new program.
00:16:15First Racing is implementing a new program.
00:16:18You can read all about it, but it's a really fascinating idea.
00:16:22And the main program that Dan talks about in the story is called Stride Safe.
00:16:27And it's this little chip that the that you put in the horse's saddle towel and it
00:16:33can detect the movements like the tiny little different movements that a horse might
00:16:38make if there's some underlying distress there that might not necessarily show up in
00:16:43an outward injury and something that the horse definitely needs to go on the shelf for.
00:16:47That's something that's easily detectable by a regular vet.
00:16:51And it's another one of those these kind of technologies, the movement tracking things
00:16:54that are becoming so popular in other sports as well.
00:16:57And it's so much more important in horse racing because if you can, if you read the
00:17:01story, there are such small variations in a horse's stride that even the jockey can't
00:17:07pick up. Even the jockey probably cannot feel in most situations the horse's stride
00:17:11changing. And it happens even sometimes in horses that run well.
00:17:14There was a there was an anecdote in the piece about a horse who had not run that well
00:17:19for a few starts and then ran second.
00:17:21Everybody figures, OK, the horse is coming into her top form and the horse broke down.
00:17:26But if you had paid attention to the data from the saddle towel technology, then you
00:17:31probably would have been able to figure out that there was something underneath the
00:17:34surface that was coming up.
00:17:35And it breaks down the the horse's stride into basically a traffic light, green, yellow
00:17:42or red. Green means everything is all good.
00:17:44Yellow means it's OK.
00:17:45And red means there's something to be worried about.
00:17:48And I'm just going to read some quotes here.
00:17:50It says the sensor is the ultimate jockey.
00:17:53Like I was saying, it's the best rider that ever rode a horse.
00:17:56I'm quoting the guy who's who's in charge of this program, David Lambert, who's a
00:17:59veterinarian. It's the best rider that ever rode a horse, never forgets anything and
00:18:03picks up data 800 times a second each of the three directions for a total of twenty
00:18:08four hundred data points a second from the horse.
00:18:12And he went on to say a horse can basically stand to race.
00:18:15Their bones are strong enough.
00:18:16Their ligaments are strong enough.
00:18:17But what they can't stand is imperfection over and over and over again.
00:18:21They're going to break something.
00:18:23What I'm quoting Dan's story as well.
00:18:25When explaining the equine biometrics, underpinning the success of the stride safe
00:18:29technology, Lambert first compares the horse to a cousin, the kangaroo.
00:18:33He says people don't get that 60 or 70 percent of the energy it produces is to go fast
00:18:38is from spring or elastic recoil.
00:18:40And then he breaks down the horse's drive.
00:18:42It's a fascinating story.
00:18:44Honestly, Bill, I'm going to come back to a lot of different points from this because I
00:18:48think it's really interesting.
00:18:49And this is the kind of thing that I think, you know, racing should promote this.
00:18:54Racing should promote. Here's what we're doing to try to stop horses from breaking down.
00:18:58It's not just about racetrack safety.
00:19:00It's not just about drugs.
00:19:01It's about being able to detect these injuries early on.
00:19:04But Bill, what were your impressions from the story?
00:19:07Well, Joe, I'll get sort of the macro picture here because you went over a lot of the
00:19:12details. You know, we've learned we've been told over the last several years that, like
00:19:17you said, a breakdown is comes at the end of a progression of a brewing problem.
00:19:25A perfectly healthy horse doesn't go out and necessarily break down.
00:19:29It's the horse that has some sort of problem that's undetectable and it gets worse and
00:19:33worse and worse and then breaks down.
00:19:35And if you can nip this in the bud, if you can find these problems before you put the
00:19:41horse in jeopardy in a race, that is obviously of a tremendous benefit.
00:19:47And, you know, so there's so much technology out there.
00:19:50And, you know, this was such a big story and so promising.
00:19:55I was wondering, you know, why you and I didn't even know about this, which is, you
00:19:59know, kind of a whole nother different topic.
00:20:03But, you know, the bigger picture, we talked so much about, you know, OK, the number of
00:20:07breakdowns has been going down and isn't that good news?
00:20:12But we're still at a point that is unacceptable.
00:20:15You know, there are too many horses break down, too many horses die in races.
00:20:18Can we get it to zero?
00:20:19We've always said no.
00:20:21And I don't think we can ever get it to zero.
00:20:23But can we get it to a number that is half of what it is now or or 25 percent of what
00:20:30it is now? Reading Dan's story, it certainly seems like we can.
00:20:34And, you know, that is absolutely great news.
00:20:37And, you know, is going to be if, in fact, this happens.
00:20:40And it certainly seems like this was not like wishful thinking either or a lot of
00:20:44maybes. It sounded like this is going to happen.
00:20:47And, you know, let's get that number down to as small as it possibly can be.
00:20:51And it's great news for the industry.
00:20:54Yeah, totally. And then just to to emphasize the point I was making before reading from
00:21:00the story, it says how prevalent are these sorts of issues, these sorts of underlying
00:21:04issues? Says 21 of the 22 horses that died during Santa Anita's 2018-2019 winter meet
00:21:11showed pre-existing pathology at the site of their fatal injuries.
00:21:15So that's that's a huge number.
00:21:17That's like over 95 percent.
00:21:19So I think a lot of us didn't necessarily realize how how important it was, how
00:21:24this how important this early detection kind of stuff is to stop horses from breaking
00:21:30down. I think a lot of us assumed it's the racetrack, like I said, or the drugs or
00:21:33maybe the way that horses are trained or maybe the too many cheap horses running.
00:21:38There are a lot of factors, but it seems like this is the main one.
00:21:42And, you know, it's it's it's kind of amazing that it took this long for racing to
00:21:47try to figure this out.
00:21:48But it's awesome that people are on the case now and really smart people are on the
00:21:52case. And just to show some examples of the way that StrideSafe has been used, quoting
00:21:57from the story, it says last summer, Naira used StrideSafe on every horse in one race
00:22:02per day at Saratoga, allotting each the requisite red, yellow or green label.
00:22:06By the end of the meet, 3 percent of horses measured had been red flagged.
00:22:10It says all participants were then tracked over the subsequent four months to see if
00:22:15and when they returned to race day competition of the green horses, 78 percent were
00:22:20able to race back within four months of the yellow horses, 72 percent raced within four
00:22:25months, but only 40 percent of the red flagged horses returned to race within four
00:22:30months. Again, that seems like it seems to be pretty important and conclusive data.
00:22:37Obviously, it's a small sample size, but still, that's a big, big difference and says
00:22:41so impressed as Scott Palmer, who is the equine medical director for the New York State
00:22:45Gaming Commission, so impressed as Palmer been with the technology.
00:22:48Naira has now used it on every horse to race during the most recent Belmont Park and
00:22:53Aqueduct meets for a number of totaling six, roughly six thousand recordings.
00:22:57So that data is now being evaluated and says plans are also afoot to trial the technology
00:23:01on horses during training.
00:23:03And so Palmer already imagines a future where this technology is a more permanent part of
00:23:08the Naira furniture, says my vision about this is that when I can get notified of a red
00:23:12alert, I can just send an email to the trainer that says, trainer, your horse got a red
00:23:15alert today. What does it mean?
00:23:17What does it not mean?
00:23:18And what are your next steps?
00:23:19So is the horse is going to start to get extra scrutiny so that they can try to prevent
00:23:24injuries during a race?
00:23:26You know, I I wonder if this can kind of be folded in maybe to the hyzer safety program
00:23:31because, you know, obviously I haven't read all of the hyzer regulations, but this is
00:23:35the kind of stuff that I think if we're going to have a nationally unified safety policy
00:23:41and protocol, this needs to be part of it.
00:23:44We need to have this kind of technology because it's out there and the main a lot of
00:23:49the main tracks are using it.
00:23:51But Bill, what do you think?
00:23:53Do you think that this feasibly could be adopted across the country?
00:23:57I mean, why not, especially under hyzer?
00:23:59I mean, I guess, you know, there'd be a cost factor and that's when we have no idea what
00:24:04this costs. You know, would a smaller racetrack or a racing commission in a state where
00:24:09there's not a lot of revenue, would they be able to do something like this?
00:24:13You know, and then another thing, Joe, you know, it's interesting and I'm sure this is all
00:24:18work in progress, but you talk about these horses to get the red flags running back within
00:24:22a certain amount of time.
00:24:23I mean, I would think the next upshoot of this would be there's got to be some some sort of
00:24:27rule and regulation. If you get a red light or a red flag, you know, maybe you
00:24:33shouldn't even ever race again.
00:24:34Maybe that's, you know, maybe that's a little bit too, too draconian.
00:24:39But I would think that, you know, if you get a red flag and the trainer wants to run it
00:24:43back, the horse back three weeks later, you would have to say, no, this absolutely can't
00:24:48be, you know, was the horse maybe put on the stewards list for six months, something like
00:24:52that. So I think as this progresses, that that's an issue that we have to deal with
00:24:57because, you know, what we've been doing with this research so far is finding out in
00:25:01hindsight, OK, this horse broke down and here's why.
00:25:05Well, let's not get to that point where, you know, the horse is put into a race after
00:25:12having a red flag and is in jeopardy.
00:25:14So, you know, that that's another thing.
00:25:15But again, I'm sure that this is a you know, there's a lot of moving parts here and this
00:25:19is a developing story.
00:25:20Yeah. And yeah, I think that that's that's the main idea is to put this into practice
00:25:26and to actually have some teeth behind it, because like you said, right now it's for
00:25:30research purposes.
00:25:31And that's why I bring up Heise, because it's the kind of thing that has authority over
00:25:35all of racing theoretically.
00:25:37And it's the kind of thing where you need some some kind of oomph behind the research
00:25:41and someone who can say, listen, you're not allowed to race this horse for X amount of
00:25:45days, X amount of months or maybe ever, because Dan was talking about how eventually you
00:25:50would like to filter these horses out of the racing population in general.
00:25:54And obviously people will have complaints of like, well, you you complain about field
00:25:57size and shrinking field size and you want to decrease the horse population.
00:26:01But then maybe decoupling will come in and decrease some of the tracks to have some
00:26:05bigger field sizes.
00:26:06But no, I mean, yeah, this is the kind of thing that, like I said, should be at the
00:26:10forefront and and should be talked about and should be promoted when when people, you
00:26:16know, trashed a sport.
00:26:17And then, you know, PETA comes calling after us.
00:26:20This should be pointed to to say, look, we got some really, really smart people and
00:26:24some and some actual money and some actual research behind trying to prevent these
00:26:28things from happening. So it's not as if we're at we're at a point where I think we
00:26:33used to be, where we just kind of brush it under the rug every time a horse broke
00:26:36down. This has become the the North Star for a lot of people is in racing now is to
00:26:43get rid of breakdowns as much as possible.
00:26:44And I think this is really encouraging that there are so many people focused on early
00:26:49detection, because that's the kind of thing that's a very quiet under the radar
00:26:53problem that it really helps to have so many smart people.
00:26:56And then these these programs, pilot programs behind figuring out that those issues
00:27:01and solving them before they obviously result in catastrophe.
00:27:05The TDN Riders Room was brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association.
00:27:08Pennsylvania breds were very well represented at the Keeneland meet when just one
00:27:13time got our first grade one win in the Madison Stakes for Warriors Reward LLC and
00:27:17Commonwealth New Era Racing.
00:27:19She looks to have a very exciting campaign up ahead of her this year for Brad Cox.
00:27:23The PHBA also recently announced their board's approval of a code of ethics from their
00:27:27anti-slaughter committee that will begin May 1st.
00:27:30It must be signed by anyone who either registers a horse or becomes a member of the
00:27:34PHBA, pledging not to knowingly cause a thoroughbred horse to be slaughtered for
00:27:39commercial purposes. If a person directly or indirectly violates this rule, it will be
00:27:43subject to sanctions set forth by the PHBA.
00:27:47I think that that's also relates to what we were talking about in the last segment is
00:27:51that there's actually there's some teeth behind making sure the horses don't end up in
00:27:55the slaughter pipeline. So shout out to the PHBA.
00:27:58I think that that's a great initiative.
00:27:59And I hope obviously it works out and trainers and owners do the right things by their
00:28:05horses. So so good job by the PHBA, because that's another kind of underlying problem in
00:28:09racing that we need people in power to take steps to solve.
00:28:12So be right back after this message from the PHBA.
00:28:16The PA Horse Breeders Association introduces the Pennsylvania Stallion Series, four
00:28:21brand new races to be run at parks for PA-sired, PA-bred two-year-olds.
00:28:25There are two $100,000 contests on August 22nd, PA Day at the Races.
00:28:31September 24th, PA Derby Day has two more races, each with a $200,000 purse.
00:28:37The PA Stallion Series, yet another reason why Pennsylvania is the premier place to
00:28:42breed and race. For more, please visit pabred.com.
00:28:46The Green Group Guest of the Week is sponsored by the Green Group, an accounting, tax,
00:28:50consulting and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:28:53With over 500 clients in the horse business, they have proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:28:58Learn more about how they can help you at www.greenco.com.
00:29:02So this is such a treat and such a thrill for us to bring on national political
00:29:06correspondent for MSNBC and also now for Football Night in America and the NBC Horse
00:29:11Racing coverage, Steve Kornacki.
00:29:13Thanks so much for coming on.
00:29:14Hey, Joe. Bill, it's great to be here.
00:29:15Thank you for having me.
00:29:17It's so good to talk to you.
00:29:18It's a real thrill for us to have you on.
00:29:21You are a national treasure, I must say.
00:29:23And people might see you on the MSNBC broadcast and breaking down all the election
00:29:28coverage and not know that you're a horse player and you're a horse racing guy.
00:29:32So my first question is, how do you typically play the races?
00:29:35What kind of bets? And now that you're on the NBC Horse Racing coverage, do you find
00:29:39yourself betting and handicapping more now that's part of your job?
00:29:44Yeah, it's how do I play him?
00:29:46Probably unwisely and too aggressively.
00:29:50Me too.
00:29:52You know, I can't help myself in some ways.
00:29:56I'm kind of a sucker for always trying to find a price, always trying to find a long
00:30:00shot, you know, get myself in trouble, throwing out too many favorites, going against
00:30:05Chad Brown too much in New York, you know, that kind of thing.
00:30:09But yeah, no, I just I enjoy the challenge.
00:30:11I know some people kind of likened it to, you know, a puzzle, trying to put a puzzle
00:30:16together, you know, fit a thousand different pieces.
00:30:18And if you can ever get the combination just right, there's this there's this, you
00:30:22know, feeling of kind of satisfaction.
00:30:24And I don't need to describe it to you guys, a real rush that comes with that.
00:30:28So I guess I'm always kind of chasing that rush.
00:30:32Yeah, I was on.
00:30:33We did three of the final prep races, you know, on NBC a couple of weeks ago.
00:30:39We did the wood, the bluegrass, the Santa Anita.
00:30:42They did ask me. I think they were trying to spare me the embarrassment if I if I
00:30:47wanted to pick them on the air.
00:30:48And I said, sure, I'll go ahead and and take some shots.
00:30:51I went over three, but I knew that was a distinct possibility.
00:30:55You know, it was one of those I did find myself.
00:30:57There's sort of a gut check there, definitely in the bluegrass and the wood.
00:31:00I was I went for some some prices and there was a part of me was saying, hey, maybe,
00:31:05you know, maybe go with, you know, go like a modonigal or something in the wood.
00:31:09It might be a safer pick.
00:31:10Then I ended up going with a barista who will will not be going to the derby.
00:31:16So but I, you know, that's that's kind of how I approach them.
00:31:18I'm always more interested in eight to one than two to one.
00:31:23Well, Steve, let's take even one more step backwards, and I've heard the story before,
00:31:26but I never get tired of hearing it.
00:31:28How does a kid growing up in New England, his immediate family not involved in horse racing?
00:31:33How'd you get involved and interested in the sport, particularly from the gambling and handicapping side?
00:31:37Yeah, I mean, it goes way back for me.
00:31:39I do have an uncle who's who's really into it just as a as a horse player.
00:31:44And he took me to the very first time
00:31:48to Scarborough Downs in in southern Maine, which is now no longer in existence.
00:31:54They lasted a while, but a harness track.
00:31:57This would have been in like the late 1980s.
00:32:00I mean, they didn't even I think they didn't even have simulcasting at that point.
00:32:03So it was just the live harness track at Scarborough.
00:32:07And he would go like every Friday in the summer.
00:32:10So he brought me once as a real little kid, you know, handed me the program.
00:32:14He's basically babysitting me for the night.
00:32:16And before each race, I was just, you know, point to who I wanted.
00:32:20And I ended up picking I got to pick five.
00:32:23And he bet that zero of them.
00:32:26I've had that over him for about 30 years now,
00:32:28and I've also never had another night like that since.
00:32:32You know, you were talking, I heard you talk about how you
00:32:34you hadn't been to the Derby before last year when you did it for NBC, correct?
00:32:38Yeah, that was my first time actually being there.
00:32:40And it was, you know, of the three big, you know, triple crown races last year.
00:32:44It was the one that felt the most normal just in terms of the crowd being back.
00:32:47You know, it wasn't full capacity, but it definitely felt it.
00:32:49And it was weather was amazing.
00:32:51And it was kind of kind of everything I imagined it would be.
00:32:54Yeah, well, you picked Medina Spirit, I believe.
00:32:57I think you were the only guy on the broadcast who picked Medina Spirit.
00:33:00Yeah, I used to be able to say I picked the winner, but I guess I won't be able to.
00:33:03But you pick the winner.
00:33:07You're not responsible for everything that's happened since then with Medina Spirit.
00:33:10You had the right horse.
00:33:11But yeah, so so what was that experience like?
00:33:13You know, did it live up to expectations?
00:33:15Like you said, it wasn't full capacity.
00:33:16But what was the pageantry and everything like for you?
00:33:19Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things just for me, just in terms of being on site
00:33:23is I've seen so many of these.
00:33:24It feels like in the last 10 years, every other year, it's been pouring rain down there.
00:33:29So first of all, when I found out I was going, I was like, I just I just want nice weather.
00:33:33And it was like a perfect, perfect day for it.
00:33:39And you got you know, I think they officially capped it at about 50,000 again.
00:33:43Like I swear there actually were more people and that certainly felt that way.
00:33:47But it wasn't you know, it wasn't what I've seen at its at its at its biggest on television.
00:33:52But, you know, you see the people dressing up the dresses,
00:33:55the mint juleps, the attire, the hats.
00:33:59There's just like a home.
00:34:01Yeah. You know, it's there's just there's a pageantry.
00:34:04There's an energy.
00:34:05You know, obviously, it's just sort of coursing through the place all day.
00:34:09You know, I mean, the undercard races, so many of those are
00:34:13are just good races, too, on top of everything else.
00:34:16So I mean, you've got the Oaks the day before.
00:34:19We had great weather for that, too.
00:34:21So, yeah, no, I mean, honestly, it was I was really fortunate last year
00:34:24to get to do all three of them.
00:34:27And the derby was, you know, it met my expectations.
00:34:32And then some really eager to get back down there again this year.
00:34:37Before I give a question to Steve, a little anecdote,
00:34:39and Joe, I think you'll get a kick out of this.
00:34:41I've known Steve for a little while now, and I've written about him.
00:34:44I've enjoyed having dinner with him.
00:34:46And I obviously had no idea that this guy was a horse player.
00:34:49And I'm watching the the the primary, the returns from New Hampshire.
00:34:53And the votes are coming in from an area in southern New Hampshire.
00:34:57And Steve says they're coming in from so-and-so Salem County,
00:35:01which is where Rockingham Racetrack was.
00:35:03I said, what? Wait a minute.
00:35:05This is where Rockingham was.
00:35:08This guy's got to be a racing fan and a player.
00:35:11And lo and behold, I went to some Dave Johnson, a friend of both of ours.
00:35:14Yeah, I know Steve and he loves racing.
00:35:16And we got together.
00:35:17So this all started with a little reference in the New Hampshire primary,
00:35:22which I'm watching Rockingham Park.
00:35:25So if I am the one who discovered Steve as a racing guy,
00:35:29that's where I'll came from.
00:35:31But back to the question, Steve, on your work on MSNBC
00:35:35and the election results, you do such a fantastic job
00:35:39of breaking down the numbers. What do they mean?
00:35:42There's 10 percent of the vote left to be counted in so-and-so state.
00:35:46And that's good news for the Democrats,
00:35:48because some of the Democratic areas haven't been counted, et cetera.
00:35:51What do you how do you bring that approach to horse racing?
00:35:55And on the Kentucky Derby broadcast, I mean, it's really kind of apples
00:35:59and oranges between politics.
00:36:00Yes and no. But people still love the numbers and the breakdowns.
00:36:04What are you hoping to accomplish on your racing work
00:36:07so far as letting the viewer know some given some insights
00:36:11that maybe they wouldn't have if you weren't on the broadcast?
00:36:13Yeah, thanks.
00:36:14And I love the I love the shout out for the the late lamented
00:36:17the rock in Salem, New Hampshire.
00:36:20Yeah, I spent plenty of time there.
00:36:21I love Rockingham Park.
00:36:23That was actually the closest one to us where I grew up.
00:36:26Yeah, I think, you know, I think maybe the comparison
00:36:28in terms of what I do politically,
00:36:30you know, with sort of elections, election data.
00:36:33And what I try to do, you know, with horse racing is it's it's
00:36:37the comparison is in the run up to the election and the run up to,
00:36:41you know, whatever race we're on for, where you're looking
00:36:45for potential angles that could provide some insight, some context.
00:36:50You know, in an election year, it would be I know what, for instance,
00:36:55here's this just comes to the top of my head in 2020.
00:36:58We were very mindful that the polls had kind of systematically failed in 2016.
00:37:04They had undercounted Trump support.
00:37:06They had overestimated Democratic support.
00:37:08So one thing we were always trying to adjust for in the month
00:37:12leading up to the election was, you know, every here's our polling
00:37:15average in each state.
00:37:17We're going to show you what the average is.
00:37:18And now what we're going to do is we're going to adjust it and say
00:37:21if the same error applies in 2020 that applied in 2016,
00:37:26here's what the numbers look like now.
00:37:28And suddenly you went from Biden blowouts to these razor thin Biden margins.
00:37:32And it turns out it's pretty much exactly what happened on on election night.
00:37:35It's why I end up stretching into election week.
00:37:38And everything else that sort of happened around that.
00:37:40So, you know, that's the kind of thing we're looking for,
00:37:42the kind of context we're looking to provide when it comes to elections.
00:37:45And I think that's the kind of thing, you know, I'm just starting to look at this
00:37:48this Kentucky Derby field now and start to look, you know, what can we
00:37:51what can I, you know, kind of contribute there on race day,
00:37:55kind of in a run up to it?
00:37:56And, you know, I mean, I think, again, you're looking for something,
00:37:58you know, which horse, which prep races have had the best track record
00:38:02or which horse, you know, kind of closed the strongest,
00:38:05had that best final for a long time.
00:38:08Buyer speed figures.
00:38:09What what what kind of early speed is, you know, I think a big one is
00:38:13in the derby.
00:38:14You guys know this, obviously, in this points era, just being at
00:38:16or near the front of the of the pack, like at every point of call
00:38:20has just been, you know, huge and a total departure from what it was before.
00:38:24So, you know, looking for those kinds of angles and whether it's politics
00:38:27or horse racing.
00:38:30You know, Bill mentioned this, you know, so much about the different counties
00:38:33in America.
00:38:34That's to me is the most impressive part of your coverage is, you know,
00:38:37not only do you know the counties, but, you know, the specific parts
00:38:39of the counties that is super impressive.
00:38:41How do you how do you keep that?
00:38:43And is it just good memory?
00:38:45Do you travel around the country a lot and really get to learn these places?
00:38:49How do you keep all that in your mind?
00:38:51It depends.
00:38:52I, you know, I guess I haven't traveled, you know, to a probably
00:38:56I think I'm at 43 states right now, so I haven't gotten.
00:38:59I added North Dakota a couple of years ago.
00:39:02So actually, you know, it's 44.
00:39:03I was in Louisiana two weeks ago.
00:39:05So I'm North Dakota before Louisiana.
00:39:08Yeah, I did a I did a road trip with a friend on Route two
00:39:12covering some of those northern states up near Canada.
00:39:15It's kind of cool.
00:39:17But yeah, so I'm at about 44 or 50.
00:39:20But now it's just I think, you know, I find the things I'm interested in.
00:39:25I learn as much as I possibly can about them.
00:39:28But I think it also means I've got like vast like blind spots.
00:39:32So if I'm on a bar trivia team or something and it's like pop music or like
00:39:37any pop culture for maybe the last 20 years or so, I'm kind of useless.
00:39:41So I really I've got my spots.
00:39:46Since we veered off from horse racing questions, I have one question
00:39:49I have to ask Steve more about his general work.
00:39:52You call razor thin margin for Biden.
00:39:54This election wasn't called for several days
00:39:57after the first Tuesday in November.
00:39:59And for you know, I understand not all of our listeners
00:40:04or people tuning into this will be aware of Steve's work because,
00:40:07you know, we have CNN viewers, we have Fox viewers, et cetera.
00:40:11And, you know, then there's people that that tune into MSNBC
00:40:15that tend to be obviously more liberal.
00:40:17How much over a period of time from, you know,
00:40:20when you started working on that Tuesday to when
00:40:23the Associated Press gave the election to Biden?
00:40:26How much sleep did you get in the course of those hours?
00:40:29Because I mean, what you did was just unbelievable.
00:40:32Iron Man, Iron Man.
00:40:33It was. Yeah, it was.
00:40:35I don't know the number. It was single digits.
00:40:38It I remember it was the Thursday night of that week
00:40:44when the thing that was happening as we were that Thursday night,
00:40:48we were getting a lot of the votes suddenly were coming in from Pennsylvania.
00:40:52And Trump had had that initial large margin in Pennsylvania.
00:40:55And it was clear Biden was going to overtake him.
00:40:58And it was starting to look at like 11 o'clock or so Thursday night that, hey,
00:41:01if they keep counting these a few more hours, he may overtake him overnight.
00:41:05And obviously, if that happens, that could be the election, you know, right there.
00:41:09And so we are on set.
00:41:11I've got the screen in front of me where I'm actually plugged in the counties
00:41:15that were making their they put cameras in their vote counting centers.
00:41:19I haven't, you know, queued up like a Delaware County, Pennsylvania.
00:41:22And you can actually see, hey, there's people there.
00:41:24The lights are on. They're still counting.
00:41:26So my boss comes to me and it's sort of like, you know, I can get, you know,
00:41:30relief overnight, get a few hours of sleep, come back in the morning.
00:41:34And I said to him, I kind of shook him off.
00:41:36I was like, you know, no, I think, you know, next few hours
00:41:39we might have real movement in Pennsylvania, put all this time out.
00:41:42You know, so I wave him off.
00:41:44He sends the other guy home and I go back on set.
00:41:47And then I look at that screen in front of me
00:41:50and suddenly all these different vote counting centers, the lights go off.
00:41:53And I realize they're sending them home for the night.
00:41:56And there's going to be no more votes from Pennsylvania that night.
00:41:58And now I'm stuck till, you know, 8 a.m.
00:42:01and well into the next day.
00:42:02So that that Thursday night one was my fault.
00:42:04But now, I mean, once once it starts, you just want to be there for the end of it.
00:42:08The thing that killed me in 2020 was, you know, the Breeders Cup was that Friday
00:42:11and Saturday. And yeah, I so I got out of there.
00:42:16They called it at eleven thirty seven Saturday morning.
00:42:19And obviously I was spent.
00:42:21And I, you know, I told my boss, I was like, look, I got nothing else to contribute.
00:42:25I, you know, we're at the finish line now.
00:42:27I have everybody else talk about it.
00:42:29But I also want to get out of there and watch the rest of the Breeders Cup.
00:42:33Just in time, just in time to fire away at the Breeders Cup.
00:42:36And one of the other things that came from the 20 year 2020 election coverage,
00:42:40you were named one of people's sexiest men alive.
00:42:43Yeah, what was your reaction to that?
00:42:46I yeah, I tell people that's where the real voter fraud was in them
00:42:51in 2020. That's I don't know is it's
00:42:55it's not worth it for all the grief I get from friends and family.
00:42:59That's a distinction, man.
00:43:01No, I would wear that with pride.
00:43:03Yeah, no, I'm as beneficial as anyone.
00:43:06Steve, one of our sponsors on the podcast is West Point Thoroughbreds.
00:43:09We love we love their outfit.
00:43:11We love everything that they do.
00:43:13You are a West Point client, which I know from talking to you.
00:43:15Why don't you tell us about who you own, what the experience has been?
00:43:18Yeah, I am. I figured I'd give it a shot.
00:43:20You know, I've always kind of been interested in seeing the sport
00:43:24from that side of it, from the ownership side of it, because it's
00:43:27it's sort of like like I was saying, as a better, you know, when I see three to five,
00:43:32I immediately say, let's beat this horse.
00:43:34Let's try to get something else here.
00:43:36But, you know, the experience of an owner
00:43:38having a three to five favorite is going to be very different.
00:43:40And I sort of like I'm curious what that, you know, what that perspective would be like.
00:43:44So I heard really good things about West Point and got in touch with them.
00:43:48And basically in the last year became a partner in two of their horses.
00:43:52So, you know, got two two year olds last year.
00:43:56One, a filly named Gallon Rush
00:44:00actually had a really, really good two year old season.
00:44:03And I when I got into it, I went into it kind of eyes wide open.
00:44:06You know, people telling me, look, you know, this is, you know,
00:44:09you may have two complete duds here.
00:44:11This may, you know, you may see nothing on any of this.
00:44:15So, you know, we had a two year old who ended up going off in the in the matron stakes
00:44:20last year.
00:44:21I think at twenty nine to one.
00:44:22And she made this just incredible run, lost by a neck.
00:44:28I think could have gone to the Breeders' Cup potentially had she won that race.
00:44:31So a total total success.
00:44:33I think she's going to make her season debut,
00:44:35you know, potentially this week, in fact, at Gulfstream with an eye towards,
00:44:39you know, winning some stakes this year.
00:44:41And then the other is is named Bourbon Ready.
00:44:45And I think, you know, he's what you call a work in progress.
00:44:49So we'll see.
00:44:52Well, good luck with those two.
00:44:53And shout out to the partners all at West Point.
00:44:56Let's talk derby.
00:44:57You know, you've been on the derby trail a little bit more, I would assume,
00:45:00this year than than in previous years before you were working on the NBC
00:45:03Horse Racing coverage.
00:45:04What are your early impressions?
00:45:05Who do you like? Who do you think?
00:45:07Like you said, you're you're against short prices.
00:45:09Who do you think is going to take a lot of money?
00:45:10That might be a toss. What are your feelings?
00:45:12Yeah, I mean, it's one of those words.
00:45:13So I mentioned this a minute ago.
00:45:15It's it's I'm looking a horse like Zandon.
00:45:19I've got real doubts about just because the way
00:45:23the race has unfolded in the points era.
00:45:26If you're a modern girl, too, I think you put into this category
00:45:30coming off the pace and just it again, it's just it's outside of orb in 2013.
00:45:36I was just looking at the actual numbers the other day.
00:45:38I mean, the winner has been the winner or the horse
00:45:42across the finish line first.
00:45:43I guess we got to put it that way,
00:45:46you know, has been top three at like the, you know, quarter mile, half mile.
00:45:49I mean, every year except that orb year.
00:45:53So those those closers, it's just, you know, the sort of the pace
00:45:57scenario has changed in the points era.
00:46:00I know a lot of people chalk that up to the you know, those like pure sprinters
00:46:03not being in it anymore.
00:46:04The points kind of remove them from consideration,
00:46:07although interestingly, when I when I ran the numbers the other day
00:46:10because I was thinking this might be an interesting thing to do on the air.
00:46:14The the average speed for the first half mile
00:46:17is actually a little bit slower now than it was in the 20 years
00:46:21before the point system.
00:46:22So there might be a little bit more to it.
00:46:23I'm not I'm not sure.
00:46:25But anyway, it makes me skeptical of the of a horse, you know, of a Zandon.
00:46:28It makes me skeptical of a modern girl as impressive as they are.
00:46:32I just don't know that it matches this race.
00:46:35Although then, you know, there's the other side of me that starts to say, hey,
00:46:38you know, maybe this is the year that there's there's enough speed
00:46:43kind of piled up in there.
00:46:44And you actually do get some kind of meltdown scenario.
00:46:47And one of these horses can come, you know, flying in from from kind of,
00:46:51you know, way out of it.
00:46:52But initially, those two, I kind of
00:46:56I'm I'm a little skeptical of.
00:46:59I don't have a favorite yet.
00:47:01I've had a few different thoughts along the way.
00:47:02I was there's there's this sentimental part of me that was
00:47:06if you'd asked me about three weeks ago, I was I wanted
00:47:10and I was starting to believe in secret oath, the Philly.
00:47:14And, you know, could a Philly win the Arkansas Derby?
00:47:17Go to the you know, yes, I was kind of starting to believe in that.
00:47:21You know, again, what kind of better am I?
00:47:23I'll bet with my heart and not my head a lot that that would be,
00:47:26you know, the kind of horse I would do it on.
00:47:28So I don't I don't have a favorite yet.
00:47:30I've I've I've probably got like six or eight that I keep kind of jumping
00:47:34back and forth between in my head.
00:47:36Well, Steve, you've been holding out on us because you haven't told
00:47:38our listeners the real secret to your success as a horse players
00:47:42that you have a system, not the most sophisticated system in the world,
00:47:46but you have a lot of fun with it.
00:47:47And then every once in a while, it helps you stumble upon a big long shot.
00:47:51Why don't you unveil the secret
00:47:53secret to parimutuel riches at the racetrack?
00:47:57I love it. It's not the Steve Kornacki system, though.
00:47:59It's it got to my uncle from a guy who went by the name Sharky,
00:48:03who worked at Suffolk Downs in Boston in the 1960s.
00:48:07And actually, I told this to the NBC folks.
00:48:10I told this system, if you want to call it that, to them
00:48:14when I started doing the horse racing and they they kind of like
00:48:17they love the simplicity of it.
00:48:18So we did some hits around it and then it turned out last year.
00:48:21I just found some random I forgot who it was, but some random account
00:48:24I saw on Twitter that was kind of based in New England
00:48:28made reference to the system and to Suffolk Downs in the 1960s.
00:48:32So I think it really was a thing that came out of Suffolk Downs
00:48:34in the 60s somehow.
00:48:36But it's 13 system is what it is.
00:48:38And it's you take the last three finishes for a horse.
00:48:42And if they add up to 13, hammer it.
00:48:46So, you know, eighth place, second place,
00:48:49you know, third place adds up to 13.
00:48:52That's a 13 horse. You hammer it.
00:48:55So I got that from my uncle.
00:48:56And that was, you know, when he was when he started taking me
00:48:59in my earliest years, that would be my job.
00:49:01He'd hand me the program.
00:49:02I go through it and I would just find all the all the thirteens.
00:49:05And what it does, I will say is like
00:49:09I think especially if you're
00:49:11if you're doing any kind of exotics, if you do an exact to try
00:49:14or if you're doing doubles, pick threes.
00:49:15And if you are disciplined and throw the 13 horses in,
00:49:20oftentimes you're going to get 12 to one, 18 to 120 to one horses
00:49:25that you would never in a million years, you know, identify.
00:49:29And they do hit some as my experience.
00:49:31They miss a lot, but they do hit sometimes.
00:49:34And I've seen some and been part of with my uncle's
00:49:37some just monster payouts,
00:49:40you know, especially, like I said, these doubles, these pick threes.
00:49:43They take up one leg.
00:49:44And, you know, we had one.
00:49:46I was we were all together, my family, probably about a month ago.
00:49:51And we were doing aqueduct on a Saturday.
00:49:53And there was 13, you went off at twenty nine to one.
00:49:57And he went gate to wire, won the race.
00:49:59We had to double only reason, only reason we had that horse.
00:50:02Never, ever would have had it otherwise.
00:50:03So, you know, you get to the derby.
00:50:05Of course, you don't have many thirteens that that are running in the derby
00:50:08because their past performances are first place, second place,
00:50:11third place, you know, all that.
00:50:13There was one running in the Lexington Stakes last weekend dash attack,
00:50:17but didn't didn't represent the system well.
00:50:21You know, yeah, I've learned from my years playing the horses.
00:50:24There is no system that you can dismiss.
00:50:26It's a hard enough game that anything that anybody has
00:50:29that's had some success along the way.
00:50:30I think you have to have a little bit of respect for.
00:50:32This is the last question for me.
00:50:34And I usually ask this of people.
00:50:35We talk to athletes on the show.
00:50:36Sometimes you talk to Bobby Flay.
00:50:38I ask them about this.
00:50:39People who are in other worlds but are into horse racing.
00:50:42What is the reaction and what is the feeling that you get
00:50:45if you ever talk to colleagues about racing good, bad in between?
00:50:49What's the impression that other people have of racing right now, would you say?
00:50:55I think it varies.
00:50:56I think it varies.
00:50:57You know, sometimes, you know, I'll talk to someone who's got,
00:51:01you know, good memories maybe of going as a kid
00:51:05or who, you know, yeah, I go to Saratoga once every summer
00:51:09sort of as a social thing.
00:51:10And and so you've got kind of that level of it.
00:51:13You know, and I know some folks who like I can.
00:51:15Well, I talked some friends into going to Aqueduct last Saturday.
00:51:18I don't know. I can't say they were too impressed.
00:51:20But Saratoga or something, you know, you can you can get people
00:51:24who are not who are not too into it, excited about something like that.
00:51:29But yeah, there's, you know, the the the whole Medina spirit saga.
00:51:35Unfortunately, I think over the last year, when you mention it now,
00:51:39that comes up, the idea of just, you know, didn't that prove that,
00:51:44you know, the thing isn't on the up?
00:51:45And I think the general impression a lot of people took is that,
00:51:48you know, it's just not on the it's just not on the level.
00:51:52You know, I I feel bad just like, you know, obviously just how things
00:51:56turned out for that horse.
00:51:58And, you know, like I said, they put aside whatever you I just the horse to me
00:52:03deserves and deserve better.
00:52:05You know, I, you know, I'm not I'm not weighing in on the should
00:52:09Baffert have this penalty or that penalty or whatever.
00:52:11But you want me to that on the show. So you're good.
00:52:14Yeah. I mean, I just feel the horse was a real had a real
00:52:20was a real gutty horse, and I really liked the horse.
00:52:22And but yeah, it is.
00:52:24It's when I, you know, certainly in the last year when I mention it,
00:52:28that's not far from the casual person's mind.
00:52:31Right. Yeah.
00:52:32Steve, we appreciate you coming on.
00:52:33And as a New Yorker, I appreciate you trying to get people out to aqueducts
00:52:36before they close it down.
00:52:37You do obviously great work and we're all big fans of you, Steve.
00:52:40Thanks so much for talking to us.
00:52:41Hey, thanks a lot, guys. This is Steve. It was great.
00:52:43Great stuff. Yeah.
00:52:44The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group,
00:52:46an accounting, tax consulting and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred
00:52:50industry. As this week's Green Group guest of the week, Steve Kornacki.
00:52:53Receive a free one hour tax consultation.
00:52:55Learn more at GreenCo.com.
00:52:57We'll be right back after this message from the Green Group.
00:53:28For a confidential and complimentary consultation,
00:53:30contact us at 732-634-5100
00:53:34or visit our website at www.greenco.com.
00:53:37The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:53:58The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by XBTV.
00:54:01This week's XBTV Workout of the Week features simplification.
00:54:04We worked five furlongs in 101.83 on Friday at Gulfstream Park,
00:54:09which you can see on the screen right now.
00:54:10The Kentucky Derby hopeful won this year's Mucho Macho Man Stakes
00:54:14and found himself in the top five.
00:54:15The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group.
00:54:18Receive a free one hour tax consultation.
00:54:20Learn more at GreenCo.com.
00:54:22Visit our website at www.greenco.com.
00:54:24The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:54:26The Kentucky Derby hopeful won this year's Mucho Macho Man Stakes
00:54:30and Fountain of You Stakes
00:54:31and was most recently third in the Grade 1 Florida Derby at Gulfstream.
00:54:35He's slated to work again this Friday and next Friday
00:54:38before leaving for Churchill.
00:54:39Definitely a little bit of an under-the-radar contender.
00:54:42I think you might get a good price on him
00:54:44because he ran third in his last race.
00:54:46But if you want to see any of those Kentucky Derby or Oaks hopefuls
00:54:49in the lead-ups to the big race,
00:54:50that big race is coming up on the first weekend in May,
00:54:53you can always go to XBTV.com.
00:54:55Just type in the horse's name.
00:54:56Not a huge racing weekend last week.
00:54:57We're kind of like in that little lull now
00:54:59between the big Derby preps weekend
00:55:01and then the Derby and Oaks weekend.
00:55:03So, obviously, we got a ton of great undercard races on those two days
00:55:07that we also had the preps for in the last couple of weekends.
00:55:11But just wanted to mention a couple of horses.
00:55:13Regal Glory, as I mentioned, in the Jenny Wiley Stakes,
00:55:16gave Chad Brown a record fifth win
00:55:18in the Jenny Wiley broke the record of Bill Mott
00:55:20and his old boss and mentor, Chad Brown.
00:55:22Regal Glory is obviously such a great hard-knocking horse,
00:55:25always shows up, definitely a win machine.
00:55:28Cheryl Spite had a little bit of an upset win in the Maker's Mark Mile.
00:55:31Really great ride by Louie Size to get that horse up on the wire.
00:55:35But the horse that I thought was the most...
00:55:37Actually, I wanted to mention Jackie's Warrior, too.
00:55:38Shout out to Kirk and Judy Robinson, fans and friends of the show.
00:55:43Jackie's Warrior returned in his first win
00:55:45and was victorious in the Count Fleet Handicap at Oaklawn.
00:55:49First start as a four-year-old,
00:55:50obviously, after becoming champion male sprinter last year.
00:55:54But the horse I wanted to mention the most
00:55:55and the one that stood out to me was Campanelle in the Giant's Causeway.
00:55:59And it kind of goes on...
00:56:00It kind of builds on a strong meat of horses
00:56:03that Wesley Ward might be able to take to Royal Ascot
00:56:06and have some success.
00:56:07Talk about Golden Pal, some of the two-year-olds.
00:56:10I thought she was crazy impressive in that race.
00:56:12She's a horse that's had some moments before overseas as well.
00:56:17She was wide all the way around the turn in that race
00:56:19and just finished up like a freight train.
00:56:22I thought that she was going to get beat with the trip that she had.
00:56:25And she was just crazy impressive
00:56:27and ran away from that field in the stretch.
00:56:29Obviously, lesser competition and a lesser stake
00:56:31that she's going to face at Royal Ascot.
00:56:33But as far as the horses that ran this weekend,
00:56:37I thought she was most impressive.
00:56:38What were your thoughts, Bill?
00:56:40Well, I don't want to talk about who was most impressive,
00:56:42but I thought one of the stories this week was...
00:56:45Joe, and probably people are getting tired.
00:56:47I know you're getting tired of me hearing this,
00:56:49but how about in the Lexington Stakes?
00:56:51A bunch of guys were looking to get derby points.
00:56:54And God forbid, Brad Cox ran a horse back in two weeks in Tawny Port.
00:56:59Did the horse disintegrate or blow up
00:57:01or now needs a three years off after doing that?
00:57:04No. Tawny Port won and is now going on to the Kentucky Derby.
00:57:09Ethereal Road, Wayne Lucas,
00:57:11who marches to the beat of his own drummer, old school trainer.
00:57:14He ran Ethereal Road back in one week.
00:57:17Now, it didn't work. The horse ran fourth.
00:57:19But same sort of thing.
00:57:21Guys, trainers, you don't need to take 17 weeks off between each start.
00:57:26It's okay to run horses back in two weeks.
00:57:29So good for Brad Cox. Good for Wayne Lucas.
00:57:32I don't think Tawny Port has much of the chance in the Kentucky Derby.
00:57:35But, you know, he stepped out on a limb a little bit and it worked
00:57:38and he's got the horse in the derby now. Good for him.
00:57:40Well, that kind of leads me into this weekend's preview
00:57:42because it's not a ton of big racing,
00:57:44but we got a lot of good fillies and mares in action this weekend.
00:57:48Malithot is making her four-year-old debut
00:57:52after winning champion three-year-old filly last year.
00:57:55I thought it was interesting that she is going to run
00:57:57in the double dog dare on Friday at Keeneland.
00:58:00Now, it's a decent-sized purse.
00:58:01It's $300,000 and it's obviously a much softer spot than the Apple Blossom.
00:58:05The Apple Blossom is Saturday at Oak Lawn. Million-dollar purse.
00:58:09Latruska's in there.
00:58:10So maybe not wanting to face Latruska off the layoff,
00:58:13but also Clarriere, CeCe.
00:58:15It's only a five-horse field, but I think star power-wise,
00:58:19it's an intriguing race in the Apple Blossom.
00:58:22But I thought it was a little curious to see Malithot in there.
00:58:26Bill, what do you think? You just want to avoid?
00:58:27Well, I mean, I guess Todd Pletcher and the team wants to give her,
00:58:32doesn't want to hold her feet to the fire first time out.
00:58:34And like you said, I mean, the Apple Blossom is not a big field,
00:58:37but it's going to be loaded. And think about this, Joe.
00:58:40Between the two races, three filly champions are coming back this weekend.
00:58:44Malithot was the three-year-old filly champion.
00:58:46CeCe was the filly and mare sprint champion.
00:58:48And beating out John Green's favorite horse, Gamine.
00:58:52And then, of course, Latruska was the older filly and mare champion.
00:58:55It's a deep and loaded division, especially if CeCe continues to go in longer races,
00:59:00where, you know, she's proven that she's very good at seven furlongs.
00:59:03And now they're going back to, you know, the mile and eighth distance.
00:59:06So, you know, it's also interesting.
00:59:08Remember, in past years, Oak Lawn would be closed by now.
00:59:11They've extended the meet and it's given us, you know,
00:59:15as much as we love the derby and the preps, the weeks in between,
00:59:17it can be kind of dogs, so to speak.
00:59:20But, you know, it's nice that Oak Lawn is, you know,
00:59:23with another champion coming back last week in Jackie's Warrior.
00:59:27And now the big race at Oak Lawn this Saturday.
00:59:29So, I mean, I'm still a Latruska fan until proven otherwise.
00:59:32She'll be my number one and the horse I'll pick in there.
00:59:35But fascinating race and a big weekend from the fillies.
00:59:38Yeah, and it's kind of a full circle for Latruska
00:59:40because last year in the Apple Blossom was kind of where she became a star
00:59:44when she was able to beat back Monomoy Girl in that stretch run.
00:59:47So, yeah, she's always a point of viewing when she watches.
00:59:50But a bunch of other big fillies of Marist to keep an eye on this weekend as well.
00:59:54The TDN Riders Group is brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds.
00:59:56Joining a West Point Thoroughbreds partnership
00:59:58can vault you into the world of instant camaraderie
01:00:00among people surrounding high-class horses and stakes action
01:00:04for a fraction of the cost of trying to do it on your own.
01:00:06You can learn more at westpointtb.com.
01:00:09And as we mentioned in the interview with Steve Kornacki,
01:00:11Steve Kornacki is a partner at West Point.
01:00:13So they're always expanding their reach and bringing in more partners.
01:00:16West Point was in action early in the OBS April sale.
01:00:19In the first session, it purchased five two-year-olds,
01:00:22including Sons of Daredevil, Mo'Haman, Good Samaritan, and Runaway and Hide,
01:00:26as well as a filly by Run Happy purchased in partnership with Gervais Racing.
01:00:31West Point had a few nice winners this weekend as well with Brigadier General
01:00:34who broke his maiden on Friday at Keeneland.
01:00:36Elector who got his second straight win of the year at San Anito on Saturday.
01:00:40Got Thunder who broke his maiden at San Anito on Sunday for John Sadler.
01:00:44So definitely a big weekend for West Point and all the partners.
01:00:46Congratulations. We'll be right back after this message from West Point Thoroughbreds.
01:00:52All the thrills.
01:00:56Fraction of the bills.
01:01:01Experience the power of the partnership.
01:01:06Change your life, make new friends, and compete at the highest level of thoroughbred racing.
01:01:13West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
01:01:17Visit westpointtb.com.
01:01:20Being a small family business, I guess we're part of a dying breed.
01:01:24We're really grateful for the people that entrust us. We know it's a huge responsibility.
01:01:28We're always with your horse, every step of the way.
01:01:32When it comes to being at the sales ground, showing your horses, we are with your horse.
01:01:36Just driving up and down the road every day.
01:01:38There's not a time that I don't look out and feel a responsibility to the sport, the animal,
01:01:42the people that come to invest in the game.
01:01:44I want to see as many people enjoy this sport as they possibly can
01:01:47because we do have the most beautiful sport in the world.
01:01:52The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Legacy Bloodstock.
01:01:55If you think that 50 years combined experience in the horse business could benefit your program,
01:02:00give Tommy or Wendy a call.
01:02:01They personally advise on each horse as if they were their own.
01:02:04Here are the latest stats for Legacy grads this year.
01:02:06So far, they've had 60, 60 winners in four black-type horses,
01:02:10including Grade 2 winner Temple and Kentucky Oaks.
01:02:13Hopeful ain't easy.
01:02:14Legacy graduate Fly Me Home broke her maiden this weekend at Laurel.
01:02:17The daughter of Temple City was the highest-priced yearling by her sire.
01:02:20The 2020 Kingland September Yearling Sales.
01:02:23As I mentioned last week, yearling sale season is right around the corner.
01:02:26Definitely give Tommy or Wendy a shout.
01:02:28Let's check out Remy's cartoon for this weekend.
01:02:31We'll look back in time to April 1875.
01:02:34The Louisville Jockey Club was trying to figure out what they should name the Kentucky Derby colloquially.
01:02:39It's the run for the, and there's a bunch of options.
01:02:42They ended up picking roses, which I think sounds right because we've heard it so long,
01:02:46but also because of the alliteration.
01:02:48But I don't know, run for the daffodils.
01:02:50I like daffodils.
01:02:51I wouldn't mind a blanket of daffodils.
01:02:53There's a bunch of other options as well, but I guess we'll stick with run for the roses.
01:02:57All right, so that's going to do it for this week's edition of the TDN Writer's Room presented by Keeneland.
01:03:01Don't forget the Keeneland April Horses of Racing Age sale is after the races on April 29th, which is closing day.
01:03:07Next Friday, you can go to april.keeneland.com to learn more.
01:03:11I want to thank Bill Finley, our Green Group Guest of the Week, Steve Kornacki,
01:03:15our producer, Patty Wolf, our associate producer, Katie Petruniak,
01:03:18and our editors, Anthony LaRocca, Aaliyah LaRocca, and Nathan Wilkinson.
01:03:22Thank you so much for watching.
01:03:24We'll see you next week, live from Keeneland.
01:03:27Can't wait.