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00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28Good afternoon.
00:00:29It's Wednesday, November 16th at 105 p.m., and this is another edition of the Thoroughbred
00:00:33Daily News Writer's Room podcast.
00:00:35I'm Bill Finley, your host, joined today by Randy Moss, Zoe Cabman, usually our partner,
00:00:40is on vacation this week.
00:00:41I want to remind you that you make plans to attend the Keeneland January sale from January
00:00:459th to the 13th.
00:00:47January horses of all age sale is noted for the high quality broodmare prospects and short
00:00:50yearlings and is among the final opportunities for breeders to obtain stock as breeding season
00:00:55nears.
00:00:56Thank you, Randy, for being the sponsor of today's telecast, broadcast, et cetera.
00:00:59Randy, welcome.
00:01:00We can't get away from Flightline, can we?
00:01:02But that's fun.
00:01:03We can talk about him for the next six years, as far as I'm concerned.
00:01:06But I detect now there's a little bit of backlash.
00:01:11And some people are coming out and saying, does he really deserve to be horse of the
00:01:15year all three races this year?
00:01:17Some people are coming out and saying that, does he really deserve to be compared to the
00:01:22all-time greats after having run just six times in his career?
00:01:26Matter of fact, the TDN in today's edition ran a editorial, a op-ed or letter to the
00:01:32editor, I should say, from Gary West, not the horse owner, Gary West, the turf rider
00:01:36that used to work for your paper, the Dallas Morning News.
00:01:39It was a little crabby, let's put it that way.
00:01:42But he said that he would, no way he would vote for this horse for horse of the year
00:01:45because he doesn't want to reward the owners.
00:01:47And he said, by no means does this horse deserve to be compared to the all-time greats.
00:01:52I've got a different take on it.
00:01:53I think that he does.
00:01:54I'll explain it shortly.
00:01:55But I want to hear what you have to say about that.
00:01:57Yeah.
00:01:58I mean, I understand where he's coming from.
00:02:01And I'm sure he's not the only one with that opinion, although he might be the only one
00:02:05not to cast a vote for a flight line for horse of the year.
00:02:08We'll see about that.
00:02:11And even the connections of flight line, we'll hear from Terry Finley later, are almost sounding
00:02:16pseudo-apologetic that the horse wound up, in their view, needing to be retired at this
00:02:23point because there was nothing else left to prove.
00:02:25Look, when you try to compare flight line or any horse from this generation with horses
00:02:32from the distant past, like your Secretariat's and Affirmed and Seattle Slew and Spectacular
00:02:37Bid, it's always problematic because so much has changed between then and now.
00:02:42And even if you look at speed figure metrics, for example, it's really difficult to compare
00:02:47even using those because there are so many variables that you can't really account for.
00:02:54And one of the ways that people have tried to compare historically horses of different
00:03:00generations is resume, is accomplishments, the list of accomplishments, the magnitude
00:03:06of the resume.
00:03:08But as horses are racing less and less often, we're getting to the point now that we really
00:03:14can't do that fairly.
00:03:17If we look at flight line's list of career accomplishments and we use that as a yardstick
00:03:24for whether he deserves to be considered an all-time great, flight line and pretty much
00:03:29every other horse that's going to come after flight line that has the potential to be an
00:03:34all-time great racehorse would be disqualified because they're just simply not going to be
00:03:39running that often.
00:03:42Flight line six times is a little bit extreme, but that's mainly because of what happened
00:03:47to him early in his career with the injury to his hind end.
00:03:51And then he had some other minor injuries that limited his number of races.
00:03:57But look, I believe that flight line did enough to be considered on the list of all-time
00:04:04greats, the magnitude of what he did when he was on the racetrack, what he did in the
00:04:08Pacific Classic, what he did in the Breeders' Cup Classic, to me, puts him in the upper
00:04:15echelon of horses, not only that I've ever seen, but, you know, I think he deserves to
00:04:21be on the list of horses of all time.
00:04:25He doesn't have the depth of resume, no, but he was absolutely sensational during the
00:04:33races that we did see him.
00:04:36Another opinion that I solicited for a TDN story, I talked to Ron Turcott.
00:04:40And of course, you know, he's biased there because he was the rider of Secretariat, but
00:04:42he said something along these lines, well, I'm not even paraphrasing, it's a direct quote.
00:04:46He has not done enough, meaning flight line, for me to say he's better than Secretariat.
00:04:50He says, this is, the horse is not raced enough for me to really be able to judge him.
00:04:56And you know, I don't totally disagree with Gary West's point either.
00:05:00Matter of fact, before the Pacific Classic, when he'd only had the one start of the year,
00:05:05and we knew then that he was likely only going to have three starts a year, I was prepared
00:05:09to take a similar stand.
00:05:11I might not have been as strident about it as Gary was in his letter to the editor.
00:05:18But to me, a horse that raced three times in a year did not deserve to be horse of the
00:05:22year.
00:05:23With the Pacific Classic, I totally changed my mind because this went beyond how many
00:05:28starts he had.
00:05:30To me, the horse of the year is the most special horse that raced during the year.
00:05:35Matter of fact, Zenyatta, that's the reason why she got horse of the year when she lost
00:05:39to Blame in the Breeders' Cup Classic, when Blame had very good credentials and beat her
00:05:45head to head.
00:05:46Clearly, the horse that was the spectacular horse of the year, the story of the year,
00:05:51was Flightline.
00:05:52If he had gone out and won the Pacific Classic by two lengths and came back and won the Breeders'
00:05:56Cup Classic by a length and a half, I would not have voted for him for horse of the year.
00:06:00I don't know who I would have, maybe Malathat, maybe Olympiad or something like that.
00:06:04But I think the whole perspective changed because now the horse is going into a stratosphere
00:06:09that not only have we not seen in maybe the 50 some odd years in Secretariat, but we thought
00:06:14that we would never see again.
00:06:16So I understand where Gary's coming from, but to me, he is a worthy horse of the year.
00:06:20Now, so far as how does he compare to Secretariat, you know, I'm running on with you.
00:06:25You just can't even go there because, you know, that's like comparing Michael Jordan
00:06:29to a guy that played in the YMCA, shooting into a peach basket in 1941 or something like
00:06:35that.
00:06:36You know, it's just it's just too different.
00:06:38But I would say this, and I've said this before, if you're just looking at.
00:06:43So from a resume, correct.
00:06:46He doesn't even come close to Secretariat, as a matter of fact, he doesn't come close
00:06:49to maybe 50 other horses.
00:06:52You know, you go down not only the ones of the great horses of the 70s, like spectacular
00:06:56bit in a firm in Seattle Slough, but Kelso, which is a horse that Ron Turcotte brought
00:07:00up.
00:07:01He said, my goodness, this horse won the Jockey Goal Cup five years in a row.
00:07:03How do you compare a flight line to that?
00:07:05But you can only compare him to the contemporaries, which would be, you know, GOSAP or American
00:07:10Pharaoh Justify.
00:07:11And I think he is deserved to be called better than any of these horses.
00:07:14But you know, if you want to say that you can't say he's as good as Secretariat, then
00:07:19no horse will ever be as good as we're not going back to those days, at least I don't
00:07:23think we are any time soon.
00:07:25So but if you look at raw ability and talent and that alone, yes, hypothetical, we don't
00:07:32know what would happen.
00:07:33But I do think he is probably as good as Secretariat, maybe, you know, maybe not quite as good,
00:07:38but I would go there.
00:07:39But that would be my way of take my take on it.
00:07:42Yeah, I think it's fair to have it both ways in a sense.
00:07:46I agree with Ron Turcotte that after only six career races, we can't say the flight
00:07:52line is better than Secretariat for the reasons we pointed out last week.
00:07:56Secretariat ended his career running twice on the grass and man, demolishing the best
00:08:00grass horses in North America.
00:08:04And he ran 21 times and we got to see Secretariat win two Horse of the Year awards.
00:08:08But by the same token, we are going to have to change the criteria for considering horses
00:08:17as all time greats.
00:08:19We're going to have to transition from depth of accomplishments and total resume, total
00:08:24grade one wins and things like that to the brilliance that they show on the racetrack
00:08:30when we get to see them.
00:08:31Because let's face it, if there's another flight line, if we're fortunate enough to
00:08:35see another flight line, let's say two years from now.
00:08:37Let's say one winds up in Todd Pletcher's barn, okay?
00:08:41We'll probably see him run, break his maiden in Saratoga, run in the Hopeful, run in the
00:08:45Champagne, win the Breeders' Cup Juvenile, come back as a three-year-old, win the Fountain
00:08:49of Youth, maybe the Bluegrass, sweep the Triple Crown.
00:08:52He'd probably run one race, let's say the Travers and then the Breeders' Cup Classic
00:08:57and then they retired to study.
00:08:58That's 11 races.
00:08:59I think you're being generous.
00:09:00I mean, Justify didn't make it after the Belmonts.
00:09:04I don't know.
00:09:05Again, we're kind of going off on a tangent here, but I don't know if we are lucky enough
00:09:11to see another Triple Crown winner in our lifetimes.
00:09:14I don't know that they're going to run after the Belmont Stakes.
00:09:16American Fair did, Justify didn't, but for all the economic reasons, it doesn't make
00:09:21a whole lot of sense to keep going with them after they accomplish the Belmont.
00:09:24So you're absolutely right about that.
00:09:25Okay, so Randy, racing has this huge problem.
00:09:28They can't develop stars because they're all retired and going off to the breeding
00:09:33shed as soon as they become stars.
00:09:35Flightline, the greatest example, and like I think you said in a podcast maybe last week,
00:09:40does even go back to Secretariat.
00:09:42I mean, he did not run as a four-year-old in an era where almost all great horses came
00:09:47back and ran as a four-year-old.
00:09:49Are there any solutions to this problem short of something ridiculous like making the breeders,
00:09:55you know, here's a solution, but of course, it's never going to happen.
00:09:58Let's make the purse of the Breeders' Cup Classic $100 million.
00:10:00Okay, problem solved.
00:10:01Nobody's going to be retired.
00:10:03We know that's not going to happen.
00:10:05Is there anything this sport can do, even if it is a little bit of a wild idea, to get
00:10:12these horses to stick around?
00:10:14I can only come up with two, Bill, and I've been thinking about this forever, right?
00:10:19And I know you have too.
00:10:21I mean, for the last at least 15 years, I've been beating the drum about the possibility
00:10:28of a rule that is sort of now known as the Gural Rule, right?
00:10:34Jeff Gural, the Harness racetrack owner that owns Tioga Downs, Vernon Downs, the Meadowlands,
00:10:42instituted a rule that at the major stakes at his racetracks, that no horse would be
00:10:49allowed to run unless the stallion competed, not only as a three-year-old, but during his
00:10:55four-year-old season.
00:10:57And there were some, you know, there were some exceptions for injury and things like
00:11:02that.
00:11:03And it was a very controversial rule, and it's been revised two or three different times.
00:11:07But let's suppose that there was a rule that no horse could be licensed, could be sanctioned,
00:11:15or whatever, as a thoroughbred racehorse by the Jockey Club unless the sire was five
00:11:20years old at the time of conception.
00:11:23It's not an outrageous rule, and some of the breeders in Kentucky that I've talked to found
00:11:29it interesting and thought that, you know, that as a conceptual idea, it could have some
00:11:40merit.
00:11:41It would have to be done internationally.
00:11:44It would have to be done in every major racing country, because let's say the United States
00:11:48did it, but Canada didn't.
00:11:50Horses could be retired to stud, could stand in Canada for their four-year-old breeding
00:11:56season and could circumvent the rule that the United States would have.
00:11:58So, it would need to be done not just in North America, but I think, you know, Ireland, England,
00:12:04France and other countries, major racing jurisdictions around the world.
00:12:08But that could help solve the dilemma of horses retiring to stud early.
00:12:14It would have to be, in my opinion, no exceptions for injury, because then you're opening a
00:12:18Pandora's box, right?
00:12:19You have veterinarians involved.
00:12:21What's a legitimate career-ending injury?
00:12:23What isn't?
00:12:24If horses were injured at the end of their two-year-old year, let's say, it would be
00:12:28unfortunate, but the owners and the breeders would just have to sit on them for a couple
00:12:32of years before they could then be retired to stud.
00:12:35That would be one possibility, I think, unlikely because it would have to be done with cooperation
00:12:42worldwide.
00:12:43But maybe other racing countries would feel the need like the United States would.
00:12:46And the other that you and I have talked about briefly, and this is a little bit more pie
00:12:51in the sky, and we can get into this a little more deeply, is artificial insemination, which
00:12:56is what quarter horse racing and almost every other competitive breed of horses in the world
00:13:02has sanctioned.
00:13:04It's the Wild West, as far as I'm concerned, in quarter horse racing right now where it
00:13:07pertains to that.
00:13:09But that might also enable some horses to retire as a stallion, I say retire, that's
00:13:17the wrong word, to become a stallion, right?
00:13:21And yet still race for a year or two more while mares are being impregnated by them
00:13:28through AI.
00:13:31Let me comment on each one.
00:13:32And the Jeff Corral rule is very interesting.
00:13:35I'll give you an even easier way to implement it if you want to do it in the United States.
00:13:40The same thing, the sire has to be at least five years old.
00:13:44Now, I wouldn't have done any good with Flightline because he was four-year-old when he retired,
00:13:47but essentially it's sort of the same as being a three-year-old for other horses because
00:13:50he missed his two-year-old year.
00:13:52If you could write, and again, I realize it's not going to happen, but it's fun to talk
00:13:56about.
00:13:57And maybe it is time for something.
00:13:59I can't see the racing industry being that proactive about something like this.
00:14:03Maybe it is time for that to happen.
00:14:05But right into the conditions of the three Triple Crown races and the Breeders' Cup race,
00:14:11excluding horses whose sires were under the age of five, four or younger, right then and
00:14:18there that was solved.
00:14:19All you have to do is get the Breeders' Cup, the three Triple Crown tracks to agree with
00:14:22it.
00:14:23Now, you could still run in the Travers, of course, you could still run in the Haskell,
00:14:26you could run in the Florida Derby, but nobody's going to want to buy a horse knowing that
00:14:31it's not eligible for the Triple Crown or the Breeders' Cup.
00:14:34You get together and do that.
00:14:36You will not see any horses retire prematurely after their three-year-old season due to anything
00:14:42other than injury.
00:14:43And I do agree with you.
00:14:44And Garald has let horses that be sires after they come to them and say the horse was injured.
00:14:49I agree with you.
00:14:50That is a slippery slope because you just go on the word of a veterinarian, how do you
00:14:55handle all that?
00:14:57So far as artificial insemination, again, that's something I don't think is going to
00:15:01happen.
00:15:02But you make a very good point that I'll go back to harness racing.
00:15:05The best harness horse in the sport this year is a horse by the name of Bulldog Hanover.
00:15:10He's going to be horse of the year.
00:15:11He's already got that clinch.
00:15:13He has the fastest time in the history of harness racing with a 145 and four mile.
00:15:19They kind of made him to be the flight line of harness racing this year.
00:15:23He's a four-year-old.
00:15:24In between his three and four-year-old season, he was bred.
00:15:29Artificial insemination to 89 mares.
00:15:31So they had their cake and eat it too.
00:15:34If you do this in Europe, like in Sweden, where harness racing is huge, it happens all
00:15:38matter of fact, it's almost it's almost the norm rather than the exception.
00:15:44And Randy, didn't you tell me that you've covered some equestrian sports for NBC where
00:15:48you've seen horses compete against their offspring?
00:15:51Yeah, show jumpers in particular, Bill, show jumping horses really don't hit their peak
00:15:58in terms of competitive excellence until they're at least eight years old.
00:16:02And even older.
00:16:03I mean, you see really top level competitive show jumpers at age 10, 11, 12.
00:16:10And they're bred at a younger age and you do see horses like that competing against
00:16:16their offspring.
00:16:17It's interesting what you pointed out about harness racing.
00:16:21I don't know that much about harness racing.
00:16:23Quarter horse racing began using artificial insemination in 1997.
00:16:29And one of the greatest quarter horses of all time, sort of like the when it comes to
00:16:34pedigree, sort of like the native dancer of quarter horse racing was a horse called Dash
00:16:39for Cash, right?
00:16:42When Dash for Cash was retired, well, when they were considering retiring him to breed
00:16:47him at the end of his three-year-old season in which he won the quarter horse championship,
00:16:52his owner, B.F. Phillips, decided that he wasn't quite ready to syndicate him until
00:16:59he knew that the horse was fertile, et cetera, et cetera.
00:17:03So he took some artificial insemination from Dash for Cash, bred him to some mares, brought
00:17:13him back to run again, and he won the national quarter horse championship again at age four.
00:17:21And then they officially retired him to stud after that.
00:17:24So it has been done before.
00:17:26There's a slippery slope here as well.
00:17:30Quarter horse racing had a problem with genetic diversity because too many popular stallions
00:17:35were siring too many horses, so there would have to be a limit, no doubt, to the number
00:17:41of foals that a stallion could sire if it was done in thoroughbred racing through artificial
00:17:48insemination.
00:17:49The other point that's brought up against AI is that it would disrupt the economics
00:17:59of the thoroughbred business, let's say, in a state like Kentucky.
00:18:03Right now, obviously, Kentucky has almost all the top stallions in the country.
00:18:09And if a broodmare owner wants to breed his mare to one of those stallions, and they are
00:18:15not located in the state of Kentucky, there's transportation to get to Kentucky, there's
00:18:20boarding for his mare to be boarded in Kentucky.
00:18:25And there are all sorts of little ancillary industries that have sprouted up in the state
00:18:29of Kentucky around the economics of breeding and the economics of stud farms that would
00:18:35be disrupted if stallions could be anywhere and if broodmares could be anywhere.
00:18:40So that would have to be addressed as well.
00:18:44It's probably not going to happen.
00:18:46I think you're right.
00:18:47But it is at least one possibility to consider if you want to try to keep some top, top stallion
00:18:53prospects on the racetrack a year or two longer.
00:18:56I think the big the reason why the Jockey Club, I believe, would be against this, and
00:19:01I know that they are, is because the fear that there would be a flight line.
00:19:07Terry Finley is going to tell us a little bit later in the show.
00:19:09I think that he was planning to breed him to 160 mares.
00:19:13Maybe that was the idea.
00:19:15But that flight line, flight line into mischief, gunrunner with all 500 mares will be bred
00:19:20to them if you have artificial insemination.
00:19:23And that would affect the diversity of the breed.
00:19:25But I don't think that would happen because of the price tag on these stallions.
00:19:31And you know, at $200,000 for a flight line, and by the way, that is the stud fee.
00:19:36That's new since we did last week's podcast.
00:19:39I don't believe there would be 500 people that were willing to put up $200,000 to breed
00:19:44to them.
00:19:45They might have a little bit larger books, but I don't think it would get into the stratosphere
00:19:50or get into a point where in some way, shape or form, it is affecting the diversity of
00:19:55the breed.
00:19:56So, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, why not, I guess is my question.
00:20:03And I know what you said about the, you know, the people, I don't want to see people lose
00:20:06their livelihoods, but, you know, it seems like a minor, the people that are shipping
00:20:10the mares back and forth.
00:20:11That seems like a minor problem considering, you know, what we're talking about.
00:20:15I think the main reason why we don't do it in Thoroughbred Racing is because, you know,
00:20:18it's tradition.
00:20:19And sometimes, you know, when you have problems, tradition is the last thing you should rely
00:20:23on.
00:20:24You should look to reinvent yourself, and this would be a good way of doing it.
00:20:27There would have to be, I think there would have to be rules in place.
00:20:30I think there would have to be a cap on the number of semen samples, for example, that
00:20:37could be shipped out from any particular stallion.
00:20:40And in Quarter Horse Racing, you know what AI has created, and this is really something
00:20:43that a lot of Thoroughbred people don't realize.
00:20:46There is a huge push in the area of embryo transfers, right?
00:20:52You can take a top class brood mare and you can inseminate her early in the year, right?
00:20:58As soon as she becomes pregnant, you can transfer the embryo to another mare to carry.
00:21:04And there are mares who are bred up to three times during each calendar year.
00:21:09They'll have three foals that are genetically their foals that are just carried to term
00:21:14by other mares.
00:21:15And a lot of these top class brood mares will retire, will be pensioned having never carried
00:21:20a foal to term, which is safer for the brood mare, obviously, because foaling and all that
00:21:26can create a lot of health risks.
00:21:31Do we want a thoroughbred industry where a beholder can have three offspring a year as
00:21:39opposed to one?
00:21:40I mean, that's another thing.
00:21:43On Tuesday, Keeneland ended its ninth session of the November breeding stock sale with cumulative
00:21:48sales through Tuesday of $210 million.
00:21:53Now on the same day, one year ago, after the ninth session, the sales were just under $199
00:21:59million.
00:22:00So the Keeneland sales so far, the breeding stock sale is up approximately 6%.
00:22:05And keep in mind, those numbers do not include the $4.6 million that was brought in from
00:22:11the sale of 2.5% of Flightline.
00:22:15Now Wednesday will be the final day of the November breeding stock sale, but the sale
00:22:19will continue one more day.
00:22:20November Keeneland will, with the Horses of Racing Age sale, a one day sale whose catalog
00:22:26just continues to grow.
00:22:28We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:22:34If this place could talk, it would roar.
00:22:41It would say, this is a racing, this beating heart in the heart of horse country, steady
00:22:50and strong beneath the roar, reminding us why.
00:22:55For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:23:02He was just put together like a machine and he had a great mind.
00:23:05Everything about him was what you'd want.
00:23:07Tis the law, pops the cork and the champagne.
00:23:10Tis the law is gonna win the first leg of the Triple Crown.
00:23:14I've never seen him get tired.
00:23:16Respect the law.
00:23:17Tis the law.
00:23:18His structure is just perfect.
00:23:20His bone is perfect.
00:23:22He's left the others behind.
00:23:24He's gonna win the Run Happy Travers.
00:23:26He's everything you would look for in a horse.
00:23:32The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Coolmore.
00:23:35Jack Christopher has now been officially retired to stud at Ashford.
00:23:40He's a former TDN Rising Star, a three time grade one winner.
00:23:44And Jack Christopher will stand alongside his sire Munnings for an introductory fee
00:23:49of $45,000.
00:23:51The other new stallions at Ashford are the speedy Golden Pal, Preakness winner
00:23:55Early Voting and Breeders' Cup Juvenile winner Corniche.
00:23:58And by the way, Tis the law's first crop of weanlings did very well at the
00:24:02Keeneland November sale.
00:24:03His top colt brought $270,000 and he had other top prices of $190,000 and $160,000.
00:24:12Randy, I call him the hardest working horse in horse racing.
00:24:15That's Beverly Park.
00:24:16And we haven't talked about him on the podcast.
00:24:18I was hoping he would win the claiming crown on Saturday.
00:24:20He ran fourth.
00:24:21He ran well.
00:24:22What a cool horse he is.
00:24:24And if you don't know the story, he's owned and trained by a trainer by the
00:24:27name of Norman Cash.
00:24:29He goes by the name Lynn.
00:24:30He's relatively new to the game.
00:24:32And basically, he goes against all conventional wisdom about all the things
00:24:36we've been talking about.
00:24:37How horses don't run enough.
00:24:38Take five, six, seven, eight weeks off in between starts.
00:24:41Beverly Park in the claiming crown was making his 26th start of the year.
00:24:46That means he's averaged a start every 12.15 days.
00:24:51And it's paid off.
00:24:52He's won 12 times.
00:24:54He's made $255,000.
00:24:56No horse in the sport has run more times and no horses won more races.
00:25:01Matter of fact, the horse with the most wins behind him is eight.
00:25:04He's basically got that wrapped up for most wins of the year.
00:25:07What I like about this story is here's a guy who's coming in and, you know,
00:25:12he didn't get the memo.
00:25:13They forgot to tell him.
00:25:14He's new to the game.
00:25:15They forgot to tell him, well, by the way, Lynn, you got to get these
00:25:18horses at least a month off in between races, if not more.
00:25:21And I've talked to him.
00:25:22He says, I'm in a business.
00:25:23I'm trying to make money.
00:25:24This is the way to make money.
00:25:25Run these horses as much as possible.
00:25:27I'm not going to do anything when they're hurt, when they're not right.
00:25:30But if they're right, I'm going to run them.
00:25:32He takes the horses.
00:25:33It's not just Beverly Park.
00:25:34That's the flagship of his stable.
00:25:36But every horse he has, you can see, has run 14 times this year, 15 times
00:25:40this year.
00:25:41I give this guy a lot of credit.
00:25:43And when he says he's making decent money doing this, I totally believe
00:25:46him.
00:25:47I just wonder why other people don't do this.
00:25:49You know, he is really setting an example for how you can make money
00:25:52with a horse, especially with these purses out there this day and age.
00:25:55This horse runs in starter and allowance races all up and down the
00:25:58East Coast, goes all over the place, the Midwest.
00:26:00He trucks them around.
00:26:01I give this guy a lot of credit.
00:26:03What a cool horse this is.
00:26:04Just it's such an anachronistic horse.
00:26:07Just it's such an anachronism right now in the sport.
00:26:11I mean, look, 19 times this year alone.
00:26:15Well, not this year alone.
00:26:1719 times since Len Cash claimed this horse, August 5th, 2021.
00:26:22He's brought Beverly Park back with a rest of 13 days or less.
00:26:26All right.
00:26:27So in a little more than a year, he's done it 19 times.
00:26:30During that exact same time period, August 2021 to now, Todd Pletcher,
00:26:36for example, I just bring up Todd Pletcher just because, you know,
00:26:39he's a top trainer.
00:26:40Others would probably have close to the same stats.
00:26:43Todd Pletcher has run 392 different horses during that period of time.
00:26:49He has run horses back on 13 days or less rest twice.
00:26:54And here, your Beverly Park has done it 19 times.
00:26:58He's run at 13 different racetracks.
00:27:00And his philosophy, Len Cash's philosophy is pretty simple.
00:27:04He said, look, most trainers would give this horse a workout every
00:27:08seven to nine days.
00:27:10You get no money for working.
00:27:12He said, I thought, you know, since there's so many starter races up
00:27:15and down the East Coast that this horse is eligible to run in,
00:27:19mostly $5,000 starter races.
00:27:22Why not just run him for money instead of working him for free?
00:27:28And so far, it has paid off handsomely.
00:27:31And as long as the horse stays healthy, more power to him.
00:27:34As long as he's not endangering the horse in any way.
00:27:36And heck, the horse has won, as you said, 22 races this year.
00:27:39So it looks like the horse is enjoying his job as well.
00:27:42It's nice to see somebody doing something,
00:27:44marching to the beat of their own drum, so to speak.
00:27:47There's more than one way to train these racehorses.
00:27:50Even the top trainers in the business will tell you that.
00:27:53Yeah, I mean, I just scratched my head.
00:27:55I mean, I didn't expect Flightline to run 26 times a year.
00:27:58But, you know, to me, you know,
00:28:01how are you going to make money for your owners?
00:28:03Well, the more you run, the more money you're going to make.
00:28:08And if I were an owner, you know, it says,
00:28:11I want my trainer so patient.
00:28:13Oh, you know, Joe is the most patient guy.
00:28:15If I had a big stable of horses,
00:28:17I'd want to find the most impatient trainer out there.
00:28:21You know, I'd say to the guy, look, I want you to be like Lynn Cash.
00:28:25If there's a race coming up in the condition book
00:28:27that's healthy, I want you to run in it.
00:28:29And, you know, does this translate into, you know,
00:28:32top class grade one horses?
00:28:34Maybe not necessarily, but, you know,
00:28:37and maybe this horse is a little bit unique.
00:28:39I don't know how many horses could stand up
00:28:41to this kind of schedule,
00:28:43but he shows no signs whatsoever of wearing him down either.
00:28:47Randy, I mean, he just goes out there.
00:28:49I mean, he's not entered yet for anything past
00:28:53that I've seen so far here on Wednesday.
00:28:55But if there's a race in the condition book
00:28:57at any racetrack within maybe eight,
00:28:59900 miles of where he is stabled,
00:29:02especially a starter allowance race,
00:29:04he's going to be in that race.
00:29:06That's why he goes to all these different tracks.
00:29:08And, you know, I just wish,
00:29:10because I hate that horses don't run more often than they do.
00:29:13I just hate it.
00:29:14I give this guy all the credit in the world.
00:29:15I just wish somebody else would be paying attention to this.
00:29:18And, you know, maybe Chad Brown may not even know
00:29:21who Norman Lynn Cash is saying, you know what?
00:29:23I'm running my horses four times a year.
00:29:25I can make Mr. Claremont and Mr. Brandt a lot more money
00:29:27if I run them eight times a year.
00:29:28That's all I'm asking for.
00:29:30I'm not asking for them to run 26 times.
00:29:33I just want them to realize you don't have to give a horse
00:29:36eight weeks off in between starts.
00:29:38When you and I were about the same age,
00:29:39when we were both getting into racing,
00:29:41you know, we're not talking about the 1920s.
00:29:44A lot of horses, matter of fact,
00:29:46more horses would do this than horses that would run,
00:29:49you know, four or five times a year,
00:29:51as long as they were healthy.
00:29:52It worked fine then.
00:29:53I don't believe the breed has changed that much,
00:29:56that horses are incapable of doing what they did in the 1970s.
00:29:59It used to be like you had those horses that run
00:30:01every single Saturday if they put up a, you know,
00:30:0310-claimer in the book at your local racetrack.
00:30:06And it was great to see.
00:30:08So, again, hats off and kudos to Norman Lynn Cash.
00:30:11Maybe I should vote for him for the Eclipse Award.
00:30:13What do you think?
00:30:14I'll show you how much times have changed.
00:30:15I got some handicapping books over here on my shelf
00:30:18from the early to mid-1970s that just say conclusively,
00:30:21you know, never bet a horse who hasn't raced in the past 30 days.
00:30:25Well, if you were doing that now,
00:30:27you would disqualify a lot of horses.
00:30:29Calendar year 2022 alone,
00:30:32this horse has run at Oaklawn Park, Turfway Park,
00:30:36Mahoning Valley, Thistledown, Monmouth,
00:30:38Belterra Park, Delaware, Colonial, Laurel,
00:30:41Timonium, Charlestown, Keeneland,
00:30:43and now most recently the Claiming Crown
00:30:45where he finished fourth at Churchill Downs.
00:30:47Go, Beverly, go.
00:30:48Voting for him.
00:30:49Yeah, good for him.
00:30:50Hey, an interesting story out of Gulfstream earlier this week.
00:30:53There was pool manipulation.
00:30:54In the first race of Gulfstream on November 11th,
00:30:57the Quinella combining an even money shot
00:31:01over a four-to-one shot,
00:31:03the Quinella paid $42.40.
00:31:08Well, the Xacta with the same two horses,
00:31:10which should pay roughly twice as much as the Quinella,
00:31:13paid $18.60.
00:31:15Now, what happened there?
00:31:16There was pool manipulation.
00:31:19We've seen this before.
00:31:21People have done it with like show bets.
00:31:23You bet a lot of money on a horse or a combination of the Quinella
00:31:28that you know is not going to come in.
00:31:30And so somebody bet roughly $18,000 on Quinellas
00:31:34involving a 43-to-one shot.
00:31:36It's a tiny pool at Gulfstream.
00:31:39I didn't even know Gulfstream had Quinellas,
00:31:41to be honest with you.
00:31:42I didn't either.
00:31:43And then what you do is you bet with one of these offshore joints,
00:31:46which books the bet.
00:31:48So they took the offshore guys for a ride here.
00:31:52What is an even money over four-to-one Quinella?
00:31:54Probably ought to pay about $7, $8, something like that, paid $42.
00:31:59I don't know how much was bet offshore,
00:32:01but it is an angle and it's kind of a wise guy thing.
00:32:03I can't believe the offshore bookmakers would even accept a bet like that,
00:32:09but apparently they do.
00:32:10So somebody made a big score,
00:32:12but you don't want to see this sort of thing.
00:32:14It leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
00:32:15It makes you wonder if anything else was going on.
00:32:18And to their credit,
00:32:19Gulfstream and the Sonnet Group immediately after this happened,
00:32:22said no more Quinellas.
00:32:24And that was the answer.
00:32:25I believe there was only $4,000 in the pool,
00:32:29in the Quinella pool, in a normal Quinella pool,
00:32:32and if somebody bet this, $18,000.
00:32:34But it's something you don't like to see.
00:32:36I give Gulfstream credit.
00:32:37I don't have a big problem with this happening, though,
00:32:41a huge problem because they took bookies for a ride.
00:32:44What's wrong with that?
00:32:45You know, I'd be interested to hear how much money was actually made offshore
00:32:52as a result of this apparent escapade.
00:32:55You would think that offshore companies would be screaming the loudest about this
00:33:00because they're the ones that are really getting victimized.
00:33:03But it's very difficult to police, obviously.
00:33:06It's very difficult to differentiate as it's happening, right,
00:33:11a bet that's being made for nefarious reasons or a bet that's being made
00:33:15because someone legitimately thinks that a long shot has a chance to win
00:33:19and they have the money and the funds to make a big bet.
00:33:23It only happens, the pool manipulation typically at low-
00:33:27to mid-level tracks where the pools are smaller
00:33:30because it would take too much money to manipulate the pool
00:33:33for a normal-sized pool or at major racetracks like Gulfstream
00:33:36that have bets like the Quinella that very few people partake in.
00:33:40So this is a very interesting phenomenon and something that, like you,
00:33:46I'm glad that Gulfstream and First Racing have been all over as a result.
00:33:52Yeah, and the other thing they normally –
00:33:54and I don't know how you stop this in the future,
00:33:56but you have some of these tracks, especially like a harness track,
00:34:00in the show pool might have $200 or $300 in the show pool.
00:34:04You could come in and bet $5,000 to show on a 99-to-1 shot
00:34:08knowing the horse has almost no chance of getting the money.
00:34:11And you might get a favorite to come in and pay $16, $17 to show.
00:34:17Then you bet $10,000 offshore on that horse.
00:34:21You look at the kind of score you're going to make.
00:34:23I do find it amazing, though, that, like we said before,
00:34:25that the offshore bookies would put themselves in a position
00:34:29where they could victimize by this.
00:34:31You'd think they'd be a little bit sharper than that.
00:34:33They wouldn't take the action.
00:34:34But the end result is there's no point having a Cornello at any racetrack
00:34:39or any bet where the handle is going to be in the $4,000 neighborhood.
00:34:45Sometimes, especially the daily doubles,
00:34:47sometimes you see that at mid-level tracks.
00:34:49There might only be $3,000 or $4,000 in the pool type of thing.
00:34:53So that was the answer, and that's the way they solved this.
00:34:55So good for Golfstream, and congratulations to the bettors out there
00:34:58that made a huge score, I guess.
00:35:00Can I tell you a quick and humorous story about my involvement?
00:35:03Once upon a time in pool manipulation, I was covering quarter horse racing,
00:35:08again, at Lone Star Park in the mid-1990s,
00:35:11and the pool was much smaller at Lone Star for quarter horse racing,
00:35:14and I had a buddy from Europe who had a lot of money,
00:35:18who very much had become an avid horse racing fan and gambler,
00:35:21and he called me one afternoon right before a quarter horse card,
00:35:24and he said, give me three horses to bet.
00:35:27So I told him, look, I don't know much about quarter horse racing.
00:35:30I'm just learning how to handicap it, but I'll give you three horses if you want.
00:35:32And he said, good.
00:35:34I'm going to bet $10,000 to win on each one of them.
00:35:37And I said, you can't do that.
00:35:39And he said, why not?
00:35:40And I said, because that's like half of the entire pool.
00:35:43He said, you'd be betting against yourself.
00:35:45And he said, I don't care.
00:35:47I'm bored.
00:35:48I just want to have fun.
00:35:49I don't care if I'm betting against myself or not.
00:35:51I'm going to do it.
00:35:53So I'm sitting in the press box at night, and I forget all about it,
00:35:56and the first horse gets ready to run,
00:35:58and there's some people standing up at the window watching the board and stuff,
00:36:01and all of a sudden all these screams come out.
00:36:03Oh, my God.
00:36:05Someone just made a huge bet and dropped this horse from seven to two to even
00:36:09money, you know.
00:36:10It happened three times during the course of that night,
00:36:13and people around the track were convinced that, you know,
00:36:17there were, I think one guy said, the cowboys have bet.
00:36:22The fix is in.
00:36:24They were absolutely convinced that there was something nefarious going on
00:36:28when it was actually just a guy who was having some fun,
00:36:32and I happened to be kind of in on it.
00:36:34Now, how did you do of the three horses?
00:36:36How many winners did you get?
00:36:38The first two lost, and the third one won.
00:36:41So I don't know.
00:36:43I think he might have made a little bit of money on the deal,
00:36:45but he had a lot of fun watching people screaming when the bet showed up.
00:36:49I'll take that.
00:36:51The Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association, the PBHA,
00:36:54is running two Pennsylvania bred $75,000 starter allowances for three and up
00:36:59at Penn National the day after Thanksgiving,
00:37:03along with the $200,000 Shamrock Roast Steaks for two-year-old fillies.
00:37:07And based on the interest level that's drawn for those two starter races,
00:37:11there could be the possibility of a Pennsylvania bred claiming crown day
00:37:15in 2023.
00:37:17And by the way, a Pennsylvania bred was successful at the Breeders' Cup.
00:37:20Caravelle running the race of her life to win the Terp Sprint.
00:37:23She had been entered in the Keeneland November sale,
00:37:26but after that surprise win, she was taken out of the sale,
00:37:29and her connections are now opting to race Caravelle.
00:37:32And that's good news in 2023.
00:37:35We'll be right back after this message from the PHBA.
00:37:38Here in Pennsylvania, we're proud of our breeding program,
00:37:42the best in North America, but we're also proud to be leaders in this industry.
00:37:46The PA Horse Breeders Association is funding cutting-edge research at PennVet
00:37:50to detect gene doping in thoroughbreds,
00:37:53and we endorsed the SAFE Act to help protect the most vulnerable horses.
00:37:57Plus, we're pleased to support the aftercare programs set up by our horseman's groups.
00:38:02Just a few of the reasons why you should join us in Pennsylvania,
00:38:06the premier place to breed and race.
00:38:09The Green Group Guest of the Week is sponsored by the Green Group,
00:38:12an accounting and tax consulting advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:38:16With over 500 clients in the horse business, they have proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:38:22Learn more how the Green Group can help you at www.greenco.com.
00:38:27And we welcome in now Green Group Guest of the Week, Terry Finley,
00:38:30a frequent guest of the week, one of our favorite people to bring in
00:38:33and help us out with the TDN Riders Room.
00:38:35Welcome, Terry.
00:38:36Welcome, Terry.
00:38:37And boy, what an amazing 48 hours for Flightline at the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:38:42You win the race on Saturday.
00:38:44Again, another thrilling, absolutely wonderful race.
00:38:47You were so emotional afterwards when he won.
00:38:51And could you describe the way you were feeling,
00:38:53and what caused those tears to flow down your cheek?
00:38:56Well, Bill, I'd say thanks for having me on.
00:38:59I appreciate the opportunity.
00:39:01I've never been afraid to show my emotion,
00:39:04and I think a lot of people in the industry, like, you know, horses like this,
00:39:09we've never had one like this.
00:39:11So I really didn't have a textbook.
00:39:15But I love horses.
00:39:17You know, I love the industry.
00:39:18I'm not unlike a lot of other people in our great business.
00:39:22And, you know, I thought it was, you know, like I mentioned to you before the show,
00:39:27that my wife had just had back surgery.
00:39:29So I wasn't able to jump around like I usually do.
00:39:32I was paying like my main attention was to her.
00:39:35And I think just the crush of everything that, you know,
00:39:41all the work that had gone into this beautiful horse, and he had shown up again,
00:39:46and he had beat those horses like he did, and, you know, all grade one winners.
00:39:50So I think just like everything piled into one,
00:39:53I just thought it was probably our best moment in the business.
00:39:59And on top of that, you know, I was able to share it with my family
00:40:02and with other people.
00:40:04So, I mean, you put all those things together.
00:40:06And if you can't get emotional in a moment like that,
00:40:09I'm not sure you ever can get emotional.
00:40:12So, Terry, you said you've never had a horse like this.
00:40:15I think it's pretty safe to say that no one that's in the industry right now
00:40:18has ever had a horse like this.
00:40:20So being in the industry as long as you have,
00:40:24anyone that's even touched the industry knows that there's so much more
00:40:28disappointment and heartbreak in the thoroughbred industry than there are
00:40:32moments of jubilation.
00:40:34So when you guys just kind of take us behind the scenes a little bit,
00:40:38that night, Saturday night, what did you guys do to celebrate?
00:40:43How did it go?
00:40:44And did John Sadler finally let his hair down, so to speak?
00:40:49Well, we went to Frank and Dino's in Lexington.
00:40:53So full disclosure, our bloodstock agent owns a piece of Frank and Dino's.
00:40:58So we had a little bit of an in to get a big table, but not that much.
00:41:02We had to wait for quite a while.
00:41:04So I'll send a word out to Carlo Vaccarezza on that.
00:41:07But he took care of us, and I think there were probably 14 of us.
00:41:10And so John was also at Frank and Dino's, and he had gotten in earlier.
00:41:16I saw him kind of walking around the corner after he had finished eating,
00:41:20and he was on his way out.
00:41:21I really did.
00:41:22I just stood up.
00:41:23Our whole table just stood up, and we all gave him a standing ovation.
00:41:26And I think other people in the restaurant,
00:41:30they were trying to figure out exactly what was going on.
00:41:33But it didn't matter.
00:41:34We owed him a standing ovation.
00:41:36And I could just see just the tension just flow out of his body.
00:41:45I knew he was absolutely at zero on the energy gauge.
00:41:50And he stood, and we talked for a couple minutes.
00:41:53And we said the same thing we've been saying to each other for like a year
00:41:57or a year and a half, I mean, how much we respected him and his team.
00:42:01And I just thought it was a great way to finish that day,
00:42:04is to give thanks to him.
00:42:07And, of course, John, the superstar person he is,
00:42:11he deflected everything and he put it all on the flight line,
00:42:14which is I know what we all try to do at every turn.
00:42:18So I think it was as fitting of a way to end a great day as anything I could
00:42:25have driven or I could have drawn up in the coach's room.
00:42:29Now, Terry, about 15 hours after he crosses the finish line first,
00:42:33he was retired.
00:42:34The announcement came out Sunday morning from Lane Zahn and the entire team.
00:42:38Can you take us through the process of how this developed?
00:42:41Did you guys meet?
00:42:42When did you meet?
00:42:43What was the discussion in the room?
00:42:44How did this all take place?
00:42:47Yeah, so, look, Bill, I figured you were going to ask that, by the way.
00:42:52But, look, as I said to somebody on Saturday night,
00:42:59we had not discussed it in a formal way.
00:43:02We respected everybody in the partnership.
00:43:06I will say I had always thought, like over the decades, I'd said,
00:43:13if I ever get one of those, I'm going to be different.
00:43:16I'm going to be different.
00:43:17Well, I think when you take into account, obviously,
00:43:22the welfare of the horse and you also bring into play trying to be a good
00:43:29steward and a good player in the horse business overall,
00:43:33but also being like a good steward for your partners, right?
00:43:37Because there are two partnerships that are involved in the source,
00:43:39and there are three individual owners that have all given a lot to the
00:43:43business.
00:43:44But when you put all those things together, it gets very complex.
00:43:49I'm comfortable with the decision.
00:43:52I think every single partner, owner, and or partner,
00:43:56I think we're all comfortable.
00:43:59Would we have liked to have seen this horse run more and more?
00:44:03Yes.
00:44:04But I do know this.
00:44:06He walked out of the winner's circle with his head high.
00:44:10I've never seen a prouder horse.
00:44:12He really likes himself.
00:44:14And he walked back to barn 60.
00:44:18And the next morning, he walked out of the barn and he was proud.
00:44:21And I saw him get off of the van at a lane's end.
00:44:25And he was, he was just like, I felt so good.
00:44:28And I was glad that we went because I knew that was right.
00:44:32That was going to be, and is going to be his home for the rest of his life.
00:44:35I'm not sidestepping your question. Look, it's,
00:44:39there are a lot of factors that went into it.
00:44:43I fully and we fully acknowledge that there are some other ways to look at
00:44:50it,
00:44:51but we are very comfortable in the spot that we're in and the impact that
00:44:57flight line has had. I I'd love to talk about it. Cause I,
00:45:00when you step back in the light of day,
00:45:02I think he had an incredible amount of impact on our business and,
00:45:06you know, through the athletic, the two athletic stories,
00:45:09the wall street journal, the New York times, a USA today, all the blogs,
00:45:14all the videos, all the chatter on social media,
00:45:18like he's had an impact and that impact is going to continue.
00:45:21So when you put all that together, yes, we,
00:45:25we had to make a tough decision. I think leaders,
00:45:28I think they make tough decisions and, and they're,
00:45:31and they're not willy nilly or they're not washy washy.
00:45:35And I think the future is bright, especially for flight line.
00:45:40So I'll,
00:45:41I'll lob a little softball across the plate to you here and give you a chance
00:45:46to talk a little more about flight line.
00:45:47What's your response to people who say that six races is not enough to make
00:45:54flight line at all time. Great resource.
00:45:58When I pull myself out of the, out of the situation, Randy,
00:46:02I think that foundationally that viewpoint is sound.
00:46:10I do. I, I, you know,
00:46:12I can't and I've had discussions with people who I really respect,
00:46:17really respect that have been in the game and have been big parts and have
00:46:21been leaders.
00:46:22And their outlook is exactly the outlook that you put forth.
00:46:27And I don't argue with them. I say, yes, I wish, I wish you now,
00:46:31of course,
00:46:32I'd like to think that if anybody owned this horse,
00:46:38obvious a piece of them like we do, you'd focus on the good things.
00:46:42You'd focus on his charisma and his,
00:46:45his brilliance and his undefeated status.
00:46:48And the fact that he's given our industry a jolt,
00:46:53but you can't have everything.
00:46:54And that's one thing we would have loved to have seen him run. Right.
00:46:58But I even more right. But I know he's never had surgery.
00:47:03He's never been an unsound horse,
00:47:05but when you're dealing with a Picasso, as, as we've talked about,
00:47:09I know in the, in the op-ed Manganaro's Paul Manganaro brought it up.
00:47:15I thought it was accurate. Like he's a Picasso.
00:47:17You handle a Picasso differently than you handle an A other than trying to,
00:47:24to get to an overnight stake. It's just the way it is.
00:47:30Terry going back to Randy's got a lot of the softballs.
00:47:33I'm going to be the top cop here and I'll let you go on.
00:47:36I want one more question on this topic.
00:47:38Do you understand why so many people are so upset that the horse was retired?
00:47:43And what do you say to them? I do. I do. I think it's,
00:47:47I think the connection on that bill is,
00:47:53you know, if you,
00:47:55if you look at the body of work and what he's brought to our business,
00:48:00I'd like to think that there's more to the plus and more to the positive.
00:48:05And, and there are more planks,
00:48:07if you will to grab hold of that are on the positive side on the positive
00:48:13meter, then on the, on the negative side. So like, again, I don't,
00:48:17I don't begrudge anybody. I don't pin my ears because, you know,
00:48:21I said to somebody, if, if every time I saw,
00:48:26I saw somebody and they wrote or they spoke about a particular aspect of
00:48:33flight line and I pin my ears,
00:48:35it would take away from the joy and the gratitude that we all have to this
00:48:42horse. And I do, I think I speak for every one of our partners.
00:48:46We're not going to let that happen,
00:48:48especially when we're dealing with somebody and a horse is special.
00:48:52So moving on now to phase two,
00:48:54he takes that body of work to lanes in farm to begin his next career.
00:48:58How is it as a determination already been made?
00:49:02I assume it has how big his book is going to be in year one.
00:49:07And also the different percentages that the owners still maintain in
00:49:12flight line. How does that work in,
00:49:15in a business like ours?
00:49:17Still maintain in flight line.
00:49:18How does that work in in his stud career and to do what do you each get?
00:49:25Like, for example, your group,
00:49:28let's say you own 15% of flight line.
00:49:31Does that mean you would get 15% of the total stallion shares available to do
00:49:38with whatever you want or how take us behind the curtain, so to speak.
00:49:43So Sid Fernando, I thought, what about, I don't know,
00:49:4610 days ago I think it was after, after the breeders cup,
00:49:50I thought did a superb job delineating that.
00:49:54So it's very simple.
00:49:57I just throw some numbers out and that the mechanics and the structure,
00:50:01there are 40 shares.
00:50:03So we now after we've sold two,
00:50:07we own 12 and a half percent of the,
00:50:10of the flight line for his stud career.
00:50:15So that entitled every two and a half percent of the,
00:50:19of the syndicate of the syndicate,
00:50:21you get a breeding and you also get one 40th of the pool.
00:50:26So you basically have two revenue streams. You,
00:50:29you can either sell your breeding or you can use it.
00:50:33And then, you know, once they, they, they,
00:50:37everybody pays for the,
00:50:41the covers that are outside of the 40 shares and the 11 breeding rights,
00:50:46everybody else,
00:50:47they put into a pool and then you pay insurance and you,
00:50:52you pay upkeep. And then that is,
00:50:54that is split up in the 40 parts and everybody that is assigned or that has
00:50:59two and a half percent, everybody gets their pro right of share.
00:51:02So look, I think back to the first question,
00:51:07it wasn't an easy, easy decision. I can,
00:51:10I'll look anybody in the eye because you look at the composition of the
00:51:14partnership
00:51:17and, and you see that we, we all love to run.
00:51:20And I'd like to think that we we've been good stewards. Now that's for,
00:51:24you know, other people. And I think for history to determine, but I do,
00:51:29I think we've always at every term we've looked out for the welfare of,
00:51:34of our flight line and every decision that was made.
00:51:37And the vast majority of them obviously were made by John Sadler as the
00:51:41captain of our, of our ship.
00:51:44But like, like it wasn't an easy, easy spot.
00:51:48And I know bill you brought up in your article about our bank accounts.
00:51:53I feel very comfortable. It, it is,
00:51:56the proceeds from his standing career will not materially impact any of our
00:52:02standards of living. You know,
00:52:05I know this game has given me a lot and, and, you know,
00:52:08I'd like to think I've tried to pay it back,
00:52:10but I'm still going to go to the two-year-old sales and try to buy horses to
00:52:15put in front of our partners.
00:52:17And I'm still going to be at the Maryland sale at Timonium.
00:52:20And I'm still going to be at Saratoga and at Del Mar and, you know,
00:52:24at the triple crown races, you know,
00:52:26trying to support our industry and our business.
00:52:30So I, I have to tell you like, yeah, money's always important.
00:52:35And I know people say when it's not about the money,
00:52:38almost always is, you know, like it wasn't going to, and, you know,
00:52:44trust me on this, the thought of, of, you know,
00:52:48seeing him run four or five more times really carried a lot of weight in the
00:52:53decision-making process.
00:52:55So how many mayors is he likely to be bred to in year one, you think?
00:52:59Yep. Yeah. So he'll, he'll be bred to about 160, not, if it is more,
00:53:04it'll be just a few more.
00:53:06So it's 160 is the, is the projected size of his book. And, you know,
00:53:11I, I was laughing because sometimes horses, they,
00:53:14they go and all of a sudden the farm or the, or the, or the stallion master,
00:53:20say, you know, we, we've got 450 applications, which is usually bogus,
00:53:24but you know, we, we've gotten a great,
00:53:27like a great response and I think people know it's going to take a very
00:53:31significant mayor, a pedigree and a race record to get the flight line.
00:53:37And, you know, we, we're gonna make sure that, you know,
00:53:40he's managed as, as the, you know, the,
00:53:45the exciting stallion prospect that he is. And I think it,
00:53:50it helps right to not have, you know,
00:53:55you know, 250 of them running around. I think it's,
00:53:58I think that's one of the things that we, we all very,
00:54:01very quickly coalesce around the leadership of, about Bill Farris.
00:54:05And we've seen the magic of, of our lanes.
00:54:09And obviously I'm biased, but there, there,
00:54:11there are a lot of good stud farms and operations that are dealing with
00:54:18stallions, but I think they do it the right way. And,
00:54:22and they give horses a chance, you know,
00:54:25they're not always looking for the new flavor of the day. So we're,
00:54:28we're, we're super excited. You know, we've,
00:54:32we've had partners come out of the woodwork that say,
00:54:34I want to be part of the next phase,
00:54:36which is really not something that we've had exposure to. So there's a,
00:54:40there, there's a lot of interest in the next phase. And I think it's,
00:54:44it's, you know,
00:54:45it's going to draw people into the breeding side of business and also into
00:54:50our industry overall. So in that respect, I think it's very good.
00:54:54Terry, the share that sold for the 4.6 million,
00:54:57were even you surprised that it went into the stratosphere like that?
00:55:00And then, you know,
00:55:02you'd multiply that by 40 and you come up with a value of 186 million for the
00:55:06horse. Do you think that's accurate? Or is that a little bit overblown?
00:55:08It's, it's overblown, right? Because you wouldn't find 40,
00:55:12you wouldn't find 40 people that were willing to,
00:55:16to give birth once that, but putting that aside, you know, the,
00:55:19I think when they talk about wall street, the implied valuation,
00:55:23and when you hear implied valuation, it's usually, you know,
00:55:27with caveats, but I think it goes back to what we said earlier.
00:55:35The fact that I know it was only two days after like a breeders cup
00:55:40classic win, but think about that.
00:55:42Think about two and a half percent selling for just sophisticated.
00:55:47And there were probably four people, right?
00:55:50Four bidders above $4 million. And,
00:55:53and so think about that in what he has brought to the industry.
00:56:00And in this case, the, the, you know, the auction market.
00:56:03So I think it, it, it says like,
00:56:08we probably don't,
00:56:10and aren't going to be able to gauge the true impact.
00:56:13And I think it's a significant impact on the business for a couple of years
00:56:17at minimum, but you know, he's done a lot of good.
00:56:21And I think that that also comes into my mind when, when I,
00:56:24I think about, or I talked to someone about, you know, yes, we,
00:56:30we were not gonna have a chance to see him in 23,
00:56:34but that doesn't mitigate the immense impact that he's had.
00:56:39So a couple of quick add on questions for me, Terry, first of all,
00:56:43this particular West point partnership that, that has fight line,
00:56:48how many investors were involved in that partnership?
00:56:53Yeah, there were, there were seven Randy. Okay. So and they all,
00:56:58they all bought in early and it was interesting because you know, when,
00:57:03when, when bill Farris and Shannon Arvin,
00:57:08when they proposed, Hey,
00:57:10we might have a chance to put a metaverse entity together to sell a share.
00:57:16You know, I, I said, I'd be happy to, to pull our partners.
00:57:23Not every one of them bit. And,
00:57:25and so we cobbled together a little piece from five out of the seven and the
00:57:31other two were like, okay, that's fine. And, and, and so obviously there,
00:57:37there's, there's all kinds of synergies when,
00:57:40when you you garner that kind of value or price at an auction, you know,
00:57:45his valuation I think was raised not to the $184 million level,
00:57:50but all in all it's good when the market shows that kind of interest.
00:57:55So I think everybody's very happy and look, but you know,
00:58:00we also run a business and this is a punishing business in,
00:58:05in a lot of respects,
00:58:06people invest their hard earned dollars year after year.
00:58:11And at a certain point you have to show that it is possible to have a
00:58:15significant return. And you know, whether you want to call this a,
00:58:20a 184 X, I think in some ways it could read,
00:58:24but this is a substantial return,
00:58:27but you have to show people,
00:58:28at least the ones who are looking to invest in the business and to get in and
00:58:34to explore opportunities in the business, right? It's,
00:58:38it's important to show them that although it doesn't happen a lot,
00:58:42you can see a significant return.
00:58:44So I think that's the other part of this that works in the favor of investors.
00:58:48And now you're in a little bit of a different situation sort of because, okay,
00:58:52now you've got your seven partners and you've got this super stallion out
00:58:55there and you've got these breeding shares potentially that you could use.
00:59:00So do you guys go out now and start collecting a few broodmares to breed the
00:59:04flight line and,
00:59:05and get into the breeding business that way and maybe sell them commercially?
00:59:08Or, I mean, how, how does the future now spin forward?
00:59:15Well, I, I talked about the book, right? There are no,
00:59:19there's no book.
00:59:21And I think we've all seen people, you know,
00:59:25get a really good horse and they stand them and all of a sudden they,
00:59:29they buy a lot of mares and all of a sudden in three years they'd have a
00:59:34hundred or 120 or whatever. It just exponentially grows.
00:59:39We don't plan to do that. But we did buy some mares,
00:59:43really top end mares at the November sale.
00:59:47And there was a group of partners that came together who weren't in on flight
00:59:51line as on the racing side, but saw, you know,
00:59:56the, the,
00:59:57the majesty of a flight line and the magic of flight line.
01:00:01So we, we put together some money, we put together a fund,
01:00:05very similar to a like a private equity fund. And it, you know,
01:00:10we put a five year deal together to see if,
01:00:12if our flight line is going to be as good of a stain as a lot of us think he
01:00:17is.
01:00:18Well, Terry, there's more to West Point Thoroughbreds than flight line.
01:00:20You've got a very exciting two-year-old by the name of Signetor.
01:00:23Broca's made, and I believe he's become a TDN rising star.
01:00:26What's up with him and what are your thoughts of him going forward as you
01:00:30obviously try to get him to the Kentucky Derby of 2023?
01:00:34Yeah, Bill. So it's ironic.
01:00:36You talk about that 48 hours in between the,
01:00:41the Breeders' Cup Classic and the, and the sale of that chair, you know,
01:00:45we were probably going to be two to five in, in the Nashua. And I get a,
01:00:50I get a call the next on what that Sunday morning from Shug McGahee. And he,
01:00:54he said, I think this colt just wrenched an ankle and I,
01:00:57I'm not going to run them.
01:00:58So it just was really a microcosm of what we deal with, but you know,
01:01:03he's fine. He's back to the racetrack and it, in Shug,
01:01:08we trust. And so he's at Payson right now. And we're excited.
01:01:13Obviously, you know, he showed quite a bit of talent. He's a tappet as well.
01:01:17We paid a lot of money for him at the, at the two-year-old sale. So look,
01:01:21you, one of the things I say to partners is you,
01:01:25you just got to keep going in this business. You, you,
01:01:28you can't like take a year or two off.
01:01:31Cause that hole in your portfolio and in your operation is going to
01:01:37last for four or five years. So that's what I advise people.
01:01:40You might not have good luck back up a little bit,
01:01:43but just stay in the game. Cause I, I'd like to think we, we,
01:01:48the collective group that own flight line, look,
01:01:51we've all stayed in the game and we don't have any magic.
01:01:55We don't have any secret potion, but we all stayed at it.
01:02:00We all kept buying yearlings, kept buying two-year-olds. We had the, you know,
01:02:04the good fortune to come together mostly at the,
01:02:08on the advice of David and Gordo and Bill Farish in August of
01:02:1419. And, and so we, you know, we're,
01:02:18we're seeing the benefits and the power of the partnership
01:02:24every day now.
01:02:25Terrific. Well, Terry, thanks so much for your insights.
01:02:27Congratulations on all your success with Flightline. Best of luck.
01:02:30He enters his second career at Lane's End. Thanks again for being our guest.
01:02:33Absolutely. Keep up the great work.
01:02:34You guys the green group guest of the week was sponsored by the green group and
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01:02:48Learn more at www.greenco.com.
01:02:52And we'll be right back after this message from the green group.
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01:04:00The TD and writer's room is brought to you by XBTV and the XBTV
01:04:04workout of the week took place last Friday at Santa Anita,
01:04:08the Bob Baffert duel of Newgate and Carmel road work together.
01:04:13That's Newgate on the outside.
01:04:14They went seven furlongs and 125.60.
01:04:18Both horses last ran in the breeders futurity at Keeneland.
01:04:22Newgate finished fifth after fighting for the early lead.
01:04:25Carmel road started from post 14 and a 14 horse field checked in next to last
01:04:30finished 13th.
01:04:31No word yet from Baffert about where these two horses might end up next with
01:04:35the Los Alamitos.
01:04:36Futurity is on December 17th at a mile on the 16th for a purse of $200,000
01:04:42that it's at least a possible landing spot for Newgate and Carmel road.
01:04:46So speaking of Bob Baffert, he's done it again.
01:04:48He unleashed another monster on Saturday at Carmel road.
01:04:52And he unleashed another monster on Saturday at Del Mar after showing off
01:04:57Arabian night.
01:04:58We've got a 97 buyer.
01:04:59That was a $2.3 million Colt.
01:05:01He unveiled phase up a TDN rising star by Girvin,
01:05:05a $725,000 two-year-old by one by three and a half lengths for trainer,
01:05:11excuse me for owner, Michael, one Peterson.
01:05:13You know, Randy, it's, it's more of the same.
01:05:16We see this, but it looks like, you know,
01:05:18more and more of these really expensive horses that his clients are buying at
01:05:22the sales are all coming through for him right now.
01:05:24You know,
01:05:25set seven 25 seems like a drop in the bucket when you have Arabian night at
01:05:292.3 million.
01:05:30But first of all,
01:05:31what was the,
01:05:32do you know what the buyer figure was on this horse and what'd you make a
01:05:34phase up a buyer figures in the mid seventies,
01:05:36which is a bit misleading.
01:05:37It's an accurate representation of of the horses race.
01:05:41First of all,
01:05:42I mean,
01:05:43she won with something left in the tank.
01:05:44Clearly she was being eased up at the end of the race.
01:05:47So I think this is a very exciting prospect despite the buyer figure.
01:05:52She is the 18th two-year-old maiden to break their maiden trained by Bob
01:05:58Baffert in 2022 in maiden special weight races.
01:06:02I mean, that's incredible.
01:06:03A lot of those are from the Avengers,
01:06:06that big group that spends all the money on yearlings that you pointed out
01:06:09this particular horse phase owned by Michael Lund Peterson from from Denmark
01:06:14Baffert jokingly calls him the great Dane.
01:06:16He's had some top class race horses in the past.
01:06:19And what a week it was for Michael Lund Peterson,
01:06:22because he also was the owner of Gamine who sold on November the sixth.
01:06:28Now Faisa ran her race on November the 12th.
01:06:30Peterson sold Gamine November the sixth through the Keeneland sale for $7
01:06:35million purchased by Coolmore while in full to quality road.
01:06:41So a home run for Peterson with Gamine at the sale,
01:06:45and then he watches Faisa begin her career with great style.
01:06:50A really well-bred horse.
01:06:52You've got Girvan on the top who's become, I think,
01:06:55a surprisingly hot stallion.
01:06:57The damn sweet pistol didn't run too much, ran twice,
01:07:01ran poorly for Todd Pletcher.
01:07:02But she happens to be a half sister to a, we're saying thousand words,
01:07:07who you might remember was a stakes winner trained by Bob Baffert,
01:07:10best known for flipping in the paddock of the pandemic Kentucky Derby in 2020
01:07:17and having to be scratched.
01:07:18So there's a lot to like about Faisa,
01:07:19and it's a horse that we'll be watching eagerly as her career progresses.
01:07:24Another story out of the same race,
01:07:26a first time starter out of Beholder by the name of Tina Ella was in there.
01:07:30Got back, took some money by War Front, finished six,
01:07:33beaten 11 lengths.
01:07:34And it just goes to show you people buying the Gamines and Midnight Bisous
01:07:38and all these superstar mayors at the sales,
01:07:40there are no guarantees whatsoever.
01:07:42Beholder has had three foals get to the races.
01:07:46They are a combined 0 for 7 with no winners with QB1, 0 for 4.
01:07:51Karen with an I, 0 for 2.
01:07:53Tina Ella now 0 for 1.
01:07:55And Zenyatta, the other great mayor of the era that came out of California,
01:07:59she has never produced a horse that has won a race.
01:08:02Most of these horses, one reason or another, did not even get to the races.
01:08:05So, you know, I'm not going to give up on Tina Ella after only one start,
01:08:09but she showed some speed,
01:08:12which you might not expect from a War Front going in a dirt sprint in there.
01:08:16But it doesn't look like Beholder or Zenyatta are really going to come through
01:08:21as brood mayors, Randy.
01:08:23As the old saying goes, Bill, you breed the best to the best and hope for the best.
01:08:28And the key word there in this business is hope.
01:08:31It doesn't always pan out.
01:08:33Doesn't always.
01:08:34Well, they'll live to fight another day.
01:08:36We'd love to see, especially Zenyatta, come up with a foal that can make everybody proud.
01:08:40But she's had an awful lot of chances.
01:08:42Christophe Soudan was back in the news.
01:08:44That, of course, is the jockey who back a while ago in a race in France
01:08:48elbowed another jockey by the name of Rosso Ryan out of the—
01:08:52literally elbowed him out of the saddle and Ryan went down.
01:08:55He was originally given a two-month suspension by the French racing authorities,
01:08:59which looked to be like a slap in the wrist.
01:09:01And something called France's gaming police apparently agreed with that.
01:09:06They are now calling for his license to be withdrawn indefinitely
01:09:09or for the suspension to be lengthened.
01:09:11I don't know exactly how that would happen, who has the authority over this.
01:09:15But at the time, I think most of us thought that was a woefully inadequate punishment
01:09:20for what he did, which was so dangerous.
01:09:22So it looks like they might get him for more than that.
01:09:25And he deserves a lot more.
01:09:26I would give him at least a year, especially a two-month sentence
01:09:29at the end of the French racing season where, you know,
01:09:32most of that two months he would be on a beach somewhere
01:09:34and maybe at Barbados or something.
01:09:36Not much of a suspension at all.
01:09:39The organization is called the Police des Jeux,
01:09:42which translates into the police of the games or the gambling police,
01:09:49and they oversee casinos and racetracks.
01:09:52And they said something interesting.
01:09:53They said that in May, Sumyong was asked to modify his risky behavior on the racetrack.
01:10:01Now, this incident with Rosa Ryan happened in September.
01:10:05So apparently Sumyong had been given some advance warning for rough riding,
01:10:09and that sort of plays into this as well.
01:10:11They have recommended at least a six-month suspension
01:10:15or possibly the indefinite withdrawal of his license,
01:10:22which is obviously a pretty dramatic step.
01:10:25But Sumyong will now have to reply and send in a written reply to the Police des Jeux
01:10:33and to the officials in France, and then they will look at his reply,
01:10:38and they'll decide exactly what policy to take about Christophe Sumyong going forward.
01:10:45And there is some precedence to this, obviously.
01:10:48Just a week earlier, you remember Pierre Charles Boudot,
01:10:51the champion jockey in France who ran so well in the Breeders' Cup,
01:10:54who has not been riding because of sexual assault charges.
01:10:59His suspensions kept getting longer, three months, six months,
01:11:04because the case has still not been heard.
01:11:07And the same organization recently withdrew his license indefinitely.
01:11:12So that's something that happens over there on occasion,
01:11:15and Sumyong is now going to have to reply to that, and we'll see where it winds up.
01:11:21Randy, you came up with an interesting story.
01:11:23I'll let you take it.
01:11:24A study that shows that horse players are smarter than the average bear.
01:11:28What about that?
01:11:29Yeah.
01:11:30We all knew that, though, Bill.
01:11:31You and I knew that already.
01:11:33Of course.
01:11:34So in Finland, there is mandatory military service for all able-bodied young men.
01:11:40And when they go into the military in Finland, they are required to take an IQ test.
01:11:46And as part of that IQ test, there's a pretty extensive questionnaire about income,
01:11:52socioeconomic status, education, and things that also include online habits,
01:12:01what you'd like to do in your spare time, et cetera, et cetera.
01:12:04And so authorities in Finland, in conjunction with the University of Liverpool,
01:12:11went through 15,000 Finnish men who had taken this IQ test looking for maybe some things
01:12:19that might have flown under the radar that they could glean from all this information.
01:12:23And one of their conclusions was that there was not just a correlation,
01:12:29a strong correlation between high IQ and Finnish men who liked to gamble on horse racing.
01:12:38How about that?
01:12:40Other games of skill as well, like poker.
01:12:43But in particular, they singled out horse racing.
01:12:47And you and I, I'm guessing you probably were the same way as me.
01:12:53And this doesn't mean that we have high IQ.
01:12:55We were probably the exception to this particular rule.
01:12:58But I was first attracted to horse racing because of sort of the problem-solving element
01:13:07and I won't say the intellectual element, but the challenge of weighing all the variables in a horse race
01:13:13and trying to figure out, trying to sort through them and trying to figure out who was going to win.
01:13:18It's a fascinating exercise.
01:13:20And it doesn't surprise me at all that someone who's really good at deductive reasoning
01:13:25and problem-solving and has a high IQ would be attracted to a game like this.
01:13:30Yeah, no, I totally agree.
01:13:32And that was one of the main reasons I got interested in racing as well.
01:13:35I wonder if they should do another study of people who like to play slot machines if they're dumb.
01:13:41No offense to anybody out there who likes to play slot machines, but we're smarter than you guys.
01:13:45We know that already, don't we, Randy?
01:13:47Okay.
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01:15:24And this week's Remy cartoon is in and it's a good one.
01:15:27He has a pair of horses trailing another pair of horses.
01:15:30They get to the half mile pole and the one says the other, we just cut through the midterms and we're losing.
01:15:35How about that?
01:15:36Very appropriate for what's going on in the election that was just a couple of days ago here in our country.
01:15:42Well, that's a wrap on this week's TDN Writers Room.
01:15:44Thanks for joining us.
01:15:45I want to thank Randy Moss.
01:15:46I want to thank our Green Group Guest of the Week, Terry Finley.
01:15:48Our producer is Patty Wolf.
01:15:50Our associate producer, Katie Petruniak.
01:15:52Our editors, Aliyah LaRocca, Anthony LaRocca.
01:15:55And of course, as always, our mascot, Lucy.
01:15:58See you next week.