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00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28And welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room.
00:00:31My name is Bill Finley.
00:00:32I'm a correspondent for the TDN, and every Saturday morning I have the pleasure of doing
00:00:36the Down the Stretch radio show on Sirius XM with one of the greatest of all time, Mr.
00:00:40Dave Johnson.
00:00:41Zoe Cabman here, I work for First Racing and XP TV.
00:00:45Now I thought I'd actually moved Burt Reynolds out of my shot, but now he's right behind
00:00:51me.
00:00:52I'd actually replaced Burt with this, I don't know if you can see it Bill, this is one of
00:00:57my favorite pictures.
00:00:58The great late Arrogate winning the Dubai World Cup, and that's me on the pony next
00:01:04to him.
00:01:05And you would have never heard a gasp when I was by the gate when he broke last out of
00:01:10the gate.
00:01:11And I was like, oh, God damn it, who am I going to interview now after the race?
00:01:15Thinking that Mike Smith wouldn't run anywhere, and there he goes, circled the field and won
00:01:21the race.
00:01:22So Burt's been replaced by Arrogate, but apparently you can see Burt right behind me now, which
00:01:26Sue's absolutely loving.
00:01:29And one of our partners in crime, Randy Moss, is on assignment this week.
00:01:32I want to remind you this week and every week we're brought to you by our good friends at
00:01:36Keeneland.
00:01:37So it started out, Zoe, like it was going to be a dreadfully slow Newsweek, and I'm
00:01:41thinking, oh my goodness, what are we going to talk about on the show?
00:01:44But lo and behold, something always does seem to happen, and it was a big one again.
00:01:49I had pretty much forgotten about the whole scopolamine case with Justify.
00:01:54It hadn't been in the news in so long.
00:01:57I couldn't have told you where it stood, but we found out last week.
00:02:01And the background, I won't go too deep into it because I'm sure most of the people that
00:02:04listen to our show know what happened.
00:02:07He tested positive for scopolamine after the 2018 Santa Anita Derby, but the California
00:02:13Horse Racing Board, for the best way to look at it, kind of looked the other way.
00:02:19They had the reasons for doing it, but when it was revealed that he did test positive,
00:02:25Rick Ruiz, the trainer and owner of Bolto Oro, filed a lawsuit.
00:02:29And as these things happen, it took a while and went through this hoop and that hoop and
00:02:34that hoop.
00:02:35Lo and behold, last week, an L.A. County Superior Court judge said that the stewards had to
00:02:40disqualify Justify because of the scopolamine positive, and that's where we stand right
00:02:47now.
00:02:48I don't know if there's another round of appeals or not.
00:02:52In our court system, there's probably 25 more rounds of appeals, but this was a big
00:02:57one.
00:02:58I mean, this is an undefeated horse, triple crown winner, and as things stand now, he
00:03:01has been disqualified from the Santa Anita Derby.
00:03:04And this case was not against Bob Baffert.
00:03:07The case was definitely against the CHRB.
00:03:10And no one really knew what was going on until 2019.
00:03:16Justify won the Derby in 2018.
00:03:18We didn't hear anything about the scopolamine case and the Jimson weed, which was the other
00:03:23contaminant.
00:03:24And while nothing's really been written, the word on the street was there were more than
00:03:28one case of a positive case.
00:03:31There were at least a dozen cases that were all tossed aside, but the only one that really
00:03:37came to the fray was Bob Baffert again, because his horse won the Derby and him and Mick Ruiz
00:03:44have been butting heads for quite some time.
00:03:47So scopolamine is now not as serious as it then was.
00:03:52They've readjusted their measurements on a lot of things now.
00:03:58So if that was the case now, you'd be absolutely fine.
00:04:02Does Mick Ruiz need the money?
00:04:04Does he need the extra 400,000?
00:04:06No.
00:04:07It was just a case in point that at the time, that was an illegal substance that he tested
00:04:14positive for.
00:04:15Was it the right thing?
00:04:17I don't know.
00:04:18It's it's been going on for so long.
00:04:20Mick won.
00:04:21Will they fight it?
00:04:22I don't know either.
00:04:23I mean, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really negate anything that justifies done
00:04:28because he was simply an absolutely brilliant horse.
00:04:32Right.
00:04:33I mean, I totally agree with you on that.
00:04:35The presence of this substance or whatever it was, had nothing to do with him winning
00:04:42the Santa Anita Derby.
00:04:43But if you read between the lines and kind of try to figure out what the CHRB was thinking,
00:04:50it appears it was somewhere along the lines of this.
00:04:53OK, this drug got into the horse's system.
00:04:57It was ninety nine point ninety nine percent certain to have been environmental contamination.
00:05:03And oh, by the way, we're getting rid of it.
00:05:05The rule just down the road.
00:05:08And if this were to happen, maybe three or four months later, it wouldn't even have been
00:05:12declared a positive.
00:05:13Therefore, you know what?
00:05:15Let's give the guy a break and just look the other way.
00:05:17I, you know, not being in the room in these discussions, but sure seems like that's what
00:05:21they decided to do.
00:05:23And that's not right.
00:05:25You can't make the rules up as you go along.
00:05:28You could say the rule was a bad rule.
00:05:30And apparently they did because they changed the qualification, the specification of scopolamine.
00:05:37But as Daryl Vienna, the lawyer, very well-respected lawyer who represented Mick Ruiz said, there's
00:05:42a longstanding CHRB rule that any horse racing with a prohibited substance in its systems
00:05:48must be disqualified and the purse redistributed.
00:05:52There's no gray area.
00:05:54Those are the facts.
00:05:55The horse should have been disqualified and the CHRB didn't do their job.
00:06:02Yeah.
00:06:03I mean, you can't argue with the facts.
00:06:04You cannot argue with the facts.
00:06:06But what I would really like, if you're going to like dig up this can of worms, who are
00:06:10the other ones?
00:06:11Were they disqualified?
00:06:12No.
00:06:13So if you're going to disqualify him, you have to retroactively go back and disqualify
00:06:18everyone.
00:06:19Don't you?
00:06:20No.
00:06:21I mean, it was a big mess.
00:06:22Don't you?
00:06:23Don't you have to go back and figure out who tested positive if he was not the only one?
00:06:28Don't you have to dig back and go through all of it and dequeue all of them?
00:06:32I suppose you do.
00:06:33They've opened up a massive can of worms here that is very difficult to deal with.
00:06:39Now, the other part about this is that his justified status for the Kentucky Derby.
00:06:46He had zero points going into the San Diego Derby and he got the points, all the points
00:06:52he needed by winning the San Diego Derby.
00:06:54Had he been disqualified between the time of the San Diego Derby and time of entry for
00:06:59the Kentucky Derby, he would not have had enough points to run in the race.
00:07:03So people are bringing this up.
00:07:05Well, he should even have been allowed to run in the Derby.
00:07:07On this one, I'm on the side of Churchill Downs and the people involved there.
00:07:13They had no way of knowing this.
00:07:16How on earth were they supposed to say, oh, he had this scopalamine positive.
00:07:21We're not going to allow him to enter the Derby.
00:07:23I also see already a Horse Racing Nation report got a quote from somebody at Churchill Downs
00:07:27saying they have no intention to, you know, look at and fiddle with the results of the
00:07:31Kentucky Derby.
00:07:32And which is what you said, Zoe, he was going to win the race anyways.
00:07:35Don't you think that's ironic?
00:07:37With the seemingly big letter that Churchill has against Bob, they have now an excuse to
00:07:44like disqualify him again.
00:07:46Would you not think they'd be just jumping on this?
00:07:49Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:52But now, again, you know, are these things that Heisser is going to change and is going
00:07:57to make, you know, because this didn't this didn't sit well.
00:08:00This didn't make anybody look good.
00:08:03I mean, it made the CIHRB look bad, even though I don't even for a minute blame Baffert on
00:08:10this.
00:08:11He had to take another public relations hit over this thing.
00:08:14And also the lack of transparency.
00:08:17You know, nobody likes Joe Drake from The New York Times.
00:08:21But if he didn't write a story about this 17 months after the Santa Anita Derby, I guarantee
00:08:29you, they would have got away with sweeping this under the rug forever.
00:08:33Now, we know we all know transparency is important.
00:08:37This is not the right way to do things.
00:08:39I think the California Horse Racing Board, by and large, does a very good job.
00:08:42But this was not their finest hour.
00:08:45No, I mean, you write the rules, you play by the rules.
00:08:49They're your own rules.
00:08:50You should at least try and follow them.
00:08:53Well, we'll see going forward, maybe someone out there, good magic finished second in the
00:09:002018 Kentucky Derby.
00:09:01I can't imagine those folks would they're not don't seem like the type that would run
00:09:05into the courtroom to try to get the race overturned.
00:09:08And again, this this has no impact on justify as a sire.
00:09:11You know, that's not like, oh, we're not going to lower a sire fee because he's now one less.
00:09:16He's not undefeated.
00:09:17So it really is about McRowey's trying to make an extra four hundred thousand dollars.
00:09:21You say he doesn't need the money to me.
00:09:23That's a lot of money.
00:09:24He doesn't need the money.
00:09:25Trust me.
00:09:26We'll see.
00:09:28We do want to remind you that the TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:09:33Do make sure to start your year right.
00:09:35Maybe a little chilly, but make plans to attend the Keeneland January Horses of All Ages Sale
00:09:40taking place from January the 8th to January the 11th.
00:09:43I might try and get there myself.
00:09:45Keeneland's January Horses of All Ages Sale is noted for high quality broodmare prospects
00:09:50and short yearlings and for being among the final opportunities for breeders to obtain
00:09:55stock as the breeding season nears.
00:09:58Supplemental entries are still being accepted and we'll be right back after this message
00:10:04from Keeneland.
00:10:05At Keeneland, a horse will always be measured in hands.
00:10:16Hands that see, that sense, that speak.
00:10:24Hands that hold our sport to a higher standard.
00:10:28Not for our sake, but for theirs.
00:10:31For the love of the horse for generations to come.
00:10:36And the TDN Writers Room is brought to you by the Fast Sires at Windstar Farm.
00:10:40Who is the fastest horse of the week?
00:10:42Well, we'll get to that in a minute, but first, who's that fast sire at Windstar?
00:10:46Once again, if speed is the key, it's Nashville.
00:10:50Nashville continues to hold the track record at Keeneland through two Breeders' Cup weekends,
00:10:54the sixth for a long time of 107.89.
00:10:58He's off to a fast start at stud, breeding 204 mares in 2023, 91% of whom are in full.
00:11:05Nashville stands for a fee of $15,000.
00:11:07Now, who was that fastest horse of the week?
00:11:11Well, we're going to be talking about him just a bit coming up in the next segment.
00:11:15It was the Dallas Stewart train, Hoist the Gold, ran a career best race.
00:11:20He ran a huge race in Cigar Mile to get a 109 buyer figure.
00:11:26So congratulations to the whole team behind Hoist the Gold to not only win the cigar,
00:11:32but to get the coveted fastest horse of the week award here on our TDN podcast.
00:11:43All right, Zoe, the weekend races, we're obviously going to talk about the cigar in just a minute,
00:11:48but let's go first to the couple.
00:11:50Well, there's a ton of weekend races, but let's just focus on the big two tracks where they happened.
00:11:55One was at Aqualux, the Remsen, Demoiselle and the Cigar, and then, of course, out at Del Mar,
00:12:01the Hollywood Derby and the Chad Brown Invitational in the Motoryard.
00:12:06Remsen hasn't produced a Kentucky Derby winner in quite some time, but this was an interesting race.
00:12:12And I think we've got a good chance to see both the winner and the second place chance,
00:12:17make some noise along the way at the Triple Crown.
00:12:20First of all, Dornach was the most famous horse in Saratoga, who had yet never won a race,
00:12:25never even ran a race, and trainer Danny Gargan, that's his personality.
00:12:31He's an effusive guy. He likes to talk up his horses.
00:12:35Said, this is the best horse I've ever trained.
00:12:37Well, we'll find out on the racetrack.
00:12:40But the pedigree was right there, of course, because he's a full brother to Mage, the Kentucky Derby winner.
00:12:44So everybody was taking a look at him.
00:12:46He ran twice and got beat both times, finished second.
00:12:51All of a sudden, it looked like maybe the hype was a little bit more than it needed to be or more than it should be.
00:12:57But then he won an allowance race and came into the Remsen and wins by a nose over Sierra Leone, gets a 91 buyer figure.
00:13:07Zoe, why don't you tell us what you think of Dornach?
00:13:09But I also want to get back to the runner up, Sierra Leone, because I have a lot to say about him.
00:13:13Well, my first my first thought when I was watching it was, how the hell did he win that?
00:13:20I've got no idea. He looked like he was in quicksand at the eighth pole.
00:13:24He's got this big galloping stride and he's still so green.
00:13:28And this is something that Danny said all along that he doesn't really know how to run.
00:13:32He managed to switch leads eventually.
00:13:34And he's just looking for company.
00:13:36Kendrick Karmush wrote him a few starts ago and said that once a horse gets beside him, he'll fight.
00:13:42And that is exactly what you saw.
00:13:44You saw him bounce off the rail.
00:13:46He bounded out there in front and set some honest fractions on his own, going the two turns at Aqueduct, hit the rail just through greenness.
00:13:54And then we saw Sierra Leone come like, oh, God, he was dead last and just came with this massive rally.
00:14:02And it was unbelievable to see Dornach get passed by Sierra Leone and then get squeezed down on the rail and just keep fighting
00:14:11and come through and win by a head.
00:14:14It was a fantastic race by Dornach.
00:14:17Was he the best horse in the race?
00:14:19I'm not sure he was because I think Sierra Leone is maybe a big, big deal.
00:14:26But Dornach is slowly putting it all together.
00:14:29If you look at him physically, Bill, he's very tall, very lean, very long.
00:14:34He's just got a big, beautiful frame to fill out into being the full Brotherton mage.
00:14:40So I haven't told he doesn't really look like mage.
00:14:43They're very, very different horses.
00:14:45Looks nothing like him.
00:14:46He's, you know, what did Bob Baffert say about real quiet?
00:14:49Looked like a fish that was kind of Dornach.
00:14:52The first time I saw him at Saratoga, I said to Danny, bring out this this full brother to mage that you keep talking about.
00:14:58Let me see him. And I was just looking up and I was like, wow, he's really tall and not very well furnished.
00:15:06Not yet. As a three year old.
00:15:08Now he's going to be Danny's going to give him some time, take him down to Florida, walk him for two or three weeks, maybe point to the withers.
00:15:15I have a feeling that once they get to the nice, warm air of Florida, they're not going to want to come back to aqueduct.
00:15:21But let's talk about Sierra Leone, who, oh, my goodness, his first race was good.
00:15:28Now, I really know all about him.
00:15:30I work with a bloodstock agent, Marette Farrell, and she tried hard on this horse at the Fasig-Tipton auger sale at Saratoga, where he sold for two point three million dollars to MV Magna and Peter Brant's white birch stable.
00:15:44He was absolutely beautiful as a yearling.
00:15:47We all fell in love with him.
00:15:49Progeny, a gun runner, had all the bits in all the right places.
00:15:52Beautiful mover.
00:15:54But that was an awful lot of money to pay for him.
00:15:56Two point three million. Does he look like he's worth it now?
00:15:59I mean, probably not yet, but there's a lot to come there for Sierra Leone.
00:16:05Yeah, I mean, we're on the same page here, and I bet you about 75 percent of people would be if you ask them which of these two horses, Doorknock and Sierra Leone, is more likely to win the Kentucky Derby.
00:16:15I think, again, 75 percent or so, maybe even more, would say Sierra Leone for a lot of the reasons you mentioned.
00:16:21I mean, it's a two point three million dollar purchase, Chad Brown.
00:16:24And he ran a remarkable race.
00:16:27He was 10th, beating 12 and a half lengths down the backstretch.
00:16:31And it was a day when closers were not making up any ground.
00:16:34Now, the only blemish on, he had the race won.
00:16:38He got by Doorknock and maybe he idled it a little bit in the final three or four strides.
00:16:44But, you know, based on the connections, based on the breeding and whatnot, I mean, I think Doorknock could be a very good horse as well.
00:16:50But this is a race where I think most people looked at the runner up and said, wow, you know, he's the one for me going forward.
00:16:58All right. You still got to love what Doorknock was able to accomplish.
00:17:02Danny Gargan, back to back wins in the Remsen, took it last year with WNL as well.
00:17:06So maybe Danny's going to write his name all over this race.
00:17:09But he was one happy camper after the race.
00:17:12Good for him. All right.
00:17:13The Demoiselle was on the card.
00:17:14Not much to talk about. Two-year-old fillies, life talk, even money for Todd Pletcher coming off a fourth place finish in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile.
00:17:23This horse is making Just FYI look good.
00:17:25Fourth behind Just FYI in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile and third behind Just FYI in the Frisette.
00:17:32Certainly, I don't think, you know, one of the top two-year-old fillies out there right now.
00:17:38We'll see what she does down the road.
00:17:40But she gets a good win.
00:17:41But I'm not real excited about her.
00:17:43Ran almost a full second slower than the boys, which is fine.
00:17:47I mean, Gunrunner would have been the talk of the day if Sierra Leone had won, because life talk is by Gunrunner as well.
00:17:55She was a $350,000 Keeneland September yearling.
00:17:59How about Todd Pletcher and his record in the Demoiselle?
00:18:01He has now won it nine times.
00:18:05And I'm going to count off the fillies that he's won it with, because the Demoiselle, to me, at least maybe, I don't know, maybe I don't know that much.
00:18:12But it doesn't strike me as like this wonderful race that these champions all seem to manage to win.
00:18:19But they do if they're trained by Todd Pletcher.
00:18:21Julia Shining, Nest, Malathat, Stop Charging Maria, Unlimited Budget, Disposable Pleasure, Ashada.
00:18:29His first one was Smoke and Frolic for Dogwood back in 2001.
00:18:33So Todd knows how to win this race.
00:18:36That's a good list of fillies.
00:18:38All right, the big race on Saturday was the Great Duke Cigar Mile.
00:18:43And as we mentioned earlier, it was won by Hoist the Gold by four and a half lengths, trained by Dallas Stewart, ever so mischievous.
00:18:49The five to two favorite ran very poorly to finish 11th.
00:18:53And, you know, this is a horse to me.
00:18:55I couldn't come up with this horse on paper.
00:18:57He was running OK in sprint races.
00:19:00You know, it looked like six, seven furlongs was really his cup of tea.
00:19:04You know, Dallas Stewart's never afraid to throw a horse in a spot where he's going to be 20 to one.
00:19:09But, you know, he thinks he thinks he's got a chance.
00:19:12And he ran, he really ran a big race.
00:19:15The first fraction is 22 and two, 44 and four.
00:19:20That should have been, well, he was on the lead.
00:19:22That should have really knocked him cold coming into this stretch.
00:19:26And it did anything.
00:19:27But I mean, he finished very strongly.
00:19:29He wins by four and a half lengths.
00:19:32I think I don't think this was anywhere close to being a, you know, a star studded version of the Cigar Mile.
00:19:40But maybe they found out what he wants to do now, maybe that he does want to go a little bit longer.
00:19:44They're actually talking about taking him in the Saudi Cup now.
00:19:47I don't blame them.
00:19:48It was a coming out party for Hoist the Gold.
00:19:50Johnny V wrote him, he ran in the Breeders' Cup, right?
00:19:53Yeah. Johnny V wrote him last time.
00:19:55And full credit to Johnny V and Dallas Stewart for giving Johnny V the credit.
00:20:00He simply said to him, run this horse two turns at Aqueducts.
00:20:03He doesn't like the dirt in his face.
00:20:05And Dallas was like, OK, sure, let's go to Aqueduct.
00:20:08Let's go to the Cigar Mile and put him right on the lead.
00:20:11No dirt in his face and looked like a winner every single step of the way.
00:20:16It was a Hall of Fame ride by Johnny V.
00:20:18So I am delighted that Dallas Stewart, for once, is not a runner up in a big race.
00:20:23He was a little bit bummed that the Cigar Mile is not a grade one.
00:20:28And we'll get to talking about that in just a little while.
00:20:31If you look at the horses that have won it since 2017, you could probably see why.
00:20:37So we have Hoist the Gold, Mind Control, American Revolution, True Timber,
00:20:41Maximum Security and Pattern Recognition.
00:20:44Those names don't jump off the page, but they did beforehand.
00:20:48Sharp Azteca, Connect, Tonalist, Private Zone, Flat Out and Stay Thirsty.
00:20:54It's been downgraded to a grade two.
00:20:57So I think the answer is in the past winners.
00:21:01Yeah, we'll touch on that a little bit later.
00:21:03OK, so let's swing out to Delmar, where if you got the fall meet at Delmar and you got
00:21:07grass racing, you know that Chad Brown is going to have some impact on this.
00:21:12And the two big races were the Hollywood Derby and the Matriarch.
00:21:15And I can lump them both in together here because the story was not the horses per se.
00:21:20It was Chad Brown.
00:21:21And he comes into the Hollywood Derby with program training.
00:21:25Trading wins by a neck over Webslinger at four to five.
00:21:29That result makes integration horse.
00:21:31We've been talking quite a bit about who won the Hill Prince look even better because he was
00:21:37second behind integration in the Virginia Derby.
00:21:41In this race, Chad Brown ties Charlie Winningham's record for four wins in the Hollywood Derby.
00:21:47OK, so what do you do for an encore?
00:21:49Only Chad Brown can pull this one off.
00:21:52The next day in the matriarch stakes, he runs four horses and they run one, two, three,
00:21:58four with surge capacity at nine to two winning the race.
00:22:03This is five straight wins in the matriarch for Chad Brown.
00:22:06He's won six of the last seven.
00:22:08He's closing in on Bobby Frankel's record of eight wins on the race.
00:22:12And by the way, if you if you were curious, this is not the first time Chad Brown has
00:22:18finished one, two, three, four integrated stakes race.
00:22:20He did it in the twenty twenty two Diana at Saratoga.
00:22:24But Zoe, how about these statistics?
00:22:27And they don't go back that far because remember, Chad Brown has not been trained all that long.
00:22:31He's won 18 races at Delmar.
00:22:3618 of them are graded stakes.
00:22:39Thirteen are grade ones.
00:22:42So you've got a guy who's won 18 stakes races at Delmar over the I should have found out
00:22:47when this started, but it's probably about the last 10 years ago.
00:22:50And he's not even stable there.
00:22:52I mean, it fits in so perfectly for his program.
00:22:55His fillies are still fresh this time of year.
00:22:58There's really we've gotten to the end of grass racing season in the East Coast.
00:23:02He sends these things out there and they each perform one after another.
00:23:08But just to think one, two, three, four in a grade one race.
00:23:12You know, that's something that it takes a tremendous outfit with a tremendous,
00:23:17tremendous amount of talent at stable to do that.
00:23:20And he didn't give your poor California horses a prayer, Zoe.
00:23:23No, he didn't.
00:23:24And, you know, the favorite ran fourth.
00:23:27And I believe Chad was maybe a little bit miffed.
00:23:30He went she went a little bit quick up front.
00:23:32That was white, white beam on the lead the whole way.
00:23:36But I mean, such capacity.
00:23:37Myself and Randy talked about this last week.
00:23:40How does she go off nine to two?
00:23:42Everyone was betting on white beam.
00:23:44I think she was nine to one.
00:23:47She was nine to two.
00:23:52She's only lost once.
00:23:53She gets Flavian Pratt aboard her.
00:23:56She's a half to a really good filly by ways called Ways and Means,
00:24:02who she did only break a maiden and then she got hurt in the spin away.
00:24:07How does she go off nine to two?
00:24:08In fact, I think Joelle Rosario wrote her.
00:24:10Excuse me.
00:24:11She's purchased for two hundred thousand.
00:24:13Actually, she's a homebred for Claravage.
00:24:15This is what I was I was looking up.
00:24:17Where did she come from?
00:24:18She's a homebred for Claravage.
00:24:20Her dam was purchased for two hundred thousand.
00:24:23She was then dispersed and sold for 40.
00:24:26Mike Ryan, the bloodstock agent for Claravage, brought her back.
00:24:29She had Ways and Means and then was sold at the Fasig November sale for like two point
00:24:34one million dollars.
00:24:36She's a really good filly.
00:24:38Like, oh, my goodness.
00:24:39I don't know.
00:24:40Like, oh, my goodness.
00:24:41I don't know.
00:24:42It was a very, very good race.
00:24:46Very, very good result for Chad Brown.
00:24:48Hey, I want to remind you of the T.D.N.
00:24:49Riders who was brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association.
00:24:53Where do Pennsylvania breads win?
00:24:55Everywhere.
00:24:56On Sunday, Elsie Racing, Cassius King and Gary Barber's morning matchup added a third
00:25:00stakes win to her resume with the last first win in the one hundred twenty five thousand
00:25:04dollar Staten Island division in the New York Stallion Stakes Series.
00:25:07Four year old Philly now has earnings of just shy of nine hundred thousand dollars.
00:25:11The twenty twenty four stallion and boarding farm directory is now available on our website
00:25:16PABread.com.
00:25:17Take a look at the new five new stallions for twenty twenty four.
00:25:20Last leg of the one million two year old P.A.
00:25:23Sired P.A.
00:25:24Bread Stallion Series is set for December twenty seven with two two hundred thousand
00:25:28dollar races and a mile and seventy yards.
00:25:30Check the PABread.com website to make sure your two year old is nominated.
00:25:34We'll be right back after this message from the PHBA.
00:25:41P.A.
00:25:41Bread, I think we've built a brand at this point.
00:25:45The state of Pennsylvania has the best breeders program in the entire United States.
00:25:52Angel of Empire wins the Arkansas Derby and wins it clear.
00:25:56Caravelle in the Breeders Cup turf sprint.
00:26:00Pennsylvania and the PHBA have the best state bread program in the country.
00:26:04Bar none.
00:26:05The best Breeders Awards and Stallion Awards in the country.
00:26:09The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by the Green Group, a tax accounting and
00:26:13advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry and designed to save you taxes.
00:26:17This week's guest will be Len Green, who runs the Green Group.
00:26:20So I guess Len will be talking to himself in a mirror for one hour as he gives himself
00:26:26tax advice.
00:26:27But it pays to listen to Len no matter what the circumstances are.
00:26:34And we welcome in now the Green Group guest of the week is none other than Mr. Green Group
00:26:38himself, Len Green.
00:26:40He's one of our primary sponsors and we're glad to have him on because he's always got
00:26:44a lot to tell us about horse racing, his DJ stable, and most importantly, he can sit down
00:26:50right now and over the next 20 minutes or so, I'm sure you're going to learn a lot about
00:26:53how to better handle your tax situation, especially when it comes for those of you
00:26:59who have a stable of racehorses.
00:27:01Len, thanks for joining us.
00:27:02Let's do a couple of horse racing questions first.
00:27:04And I imagine Wonder Wheel was kind of a bittersweet year for you.
00:27:08I mean, there's so much good.
00:27:09You bought her for $275,000.
00:27:12You sold her at the Fasig Tipton November for $3.2 million.
00:27:16She wins the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies.
00:27:18You win the Eclipse Award.
00:27:19Yet, her 2023 three-year-old campaign was a loss.
00:27:23All for three.
00:27:24She just wasn't the same horse.
00:27:26So two-part question.
00:27:27What went wrong this year?
00:27:29And as you look back on her career, how will you look at it?
00:27:33That was a great question.
00:27:35And again, I was speaking the other day for a partnership and they said to me,
00:27:43how can you make money in the business?
00:27:44I said, it's very easy.
00:27:45I said, just win the Breeders' Cup and then turn around and sell your horse for $3 million.
00:27:52It made it bittersweet also, Bill, because it's the horse that my wife named, et cetera,
00:28:00kind of thing.
00:28:00But if you decide that you want to run this as a business, and I think it's very, very
00:28:07important to want to run it as a business and not just pet noses or have champagne or
00:28:14do other things, I think you have to make business decisions.
00:28:17And the business decisions are that when a horse no longer is a racing horse, it's time
00:28:24to cut bait and sell it kind of thing.
00:28:27If I had to look back in retrospect, I might say, maybe it's not worth taking your horse
00:28:34out of training after a tough campaign, wait several months, and try to get it back into
00:28:41racing form.
00:28:43So again, that's in retrospect with this particular horse.
00:28:47Maybe with other horses, it works.
00:28:50So right now, for instance, OK, we had horses that ran the Breeders' Cup this year or ran
00:28:58in the event leading up to the Breeders' Cup, which in the case is Webslinger.
00:29:06The sensible thing on Webslinger would be, OK, tough campaign, ran eight times, let's
00:29:13give it two or three months off.
00:29:15And I'm saying, no, OK, let's go into light training for a while, give it a month or a
00:29:20half.
00:29:20Let's not stop it.
00:29:23So even though we didn't do well in those three races, I think it still signaled that,
00:29:31hey, now was the time to sell it as opposed to racing on, Bill.
00:29:35So that's the difference between, I think, people who are in this thing for a hobby or
00:29:39not into a business.
00:29:41Business says you make business decisions and you know as much as you can about the
00:29:46business.
00:29:47And kind of later on, there's going to be a question, I'm sure, as to how do you withstand
00:29:53IRS scrutiny on hobbies and how do you become active?
00:29:57And we're going to talk about the active test, which is 100 hours.
00:30:00But people don't realize, listening to this podcast, reading the TDN every day, those
00:30:09hours count toward the 100-hour test.
00:30:12So suddenly, instead of being passive, and maybe you have passive losses and you can't
00:30:17use them, suddenly they become active losses and you can use them.
00:30:21So again, business over and enjoy it.
00:30:25It's one of the toughest businesses I ever was in.
00:30:28How's that for a long answer to a simple question?
00:30:32Yeah, that was a segue from Wonder Wheel to taxes.
00:30:35I'm not sure anyone else could have done that apart from you, Len.
00:30:39That was bloody brilliant.
00:30:41And one other thing we can learn from you, Len, is how to dress.
00:30:44You're looking very dapper, Bill.
00:30:46You know, maybe next week, shirt and tie.
00:30:48Yeah, Len's got me beat.
00:30:49Pretty good.
00:30:50Yeah, shirt and tie, cufflinks.
00:30:52You're looking extremely dapper.
00:30:54Yeah, so thank you very much, Bill.
00:30:56You can remind Bill, since he's not a client, okay, that if you do get dressed up, okay,
00:31:02you can use some of these things.
00:31:03You can use the hairdresser.
00:31:05You can use all those things because you guys are celebrities.
00:31:09So there's special tax deductions that are available for celebrities.
00:31:13That outfit that he's wearing right now would not qualify.
00:31:17Len, this for me is being dressed up.
00:31:23Okay, I was so noted.
00:31:28All right, let's talk a little bit more about your horses.
00:31:31You had a great weekend at Del Mar.
00:31:34A web slinger ran a massive second in the Hollywood Derby.
00:31:38Talk a little bit about him.
00:31:39And you had a nice maiden winner yesterday at Del Mar by the name of Golden Ghost.
00:31:44Yeah, again, this is the first time that we ventured out to California.
00:31:50Part of it was the incentive that they're now offering as far as paying for the horse, etc.
00:31:57Two was that Tyler Galfione, who used to ride for us, okay, and was going on vacation.
00:32:04And we said, gee, if you're available, we really think we got a shot at a couple of races.
00:32:10So he actually flew out there instead of going on vacation, which was just terrific,
00:32:14because it really gave us another opportunity and felt very, very comfortable doing it.
00:32:19And now Mark is going to leave horses out in California because it really pays.
00:32:26And the turf is good.
00:32:28And again, you start looking at it from a business point of view.
00:32:32And you say, Len, where don't you make money during the year?
00:32:36And it's usually January and February back here.
00:32:41And why?
00:32:42Because they don't have turf races.
00:32:44And you have turf horses.
00:32:46Isn't it natural to go out to California?
00:32:50And again, if you can get top flight jockeys to ride for you and do it properly,
00:32:57well, I think it opens up a whole new area to do it with.
00:33:01And again, it's interesting because, again, Chad Brown and Seth Clerman are people that
00:33:07we've done business with before.
00:33:10And they beat us again, okay, in that big race.
00:33:13And I said, thank you for congratulating me for running well, but I'll show you our horses
00:33:21behind next time because we're going to do something different with Web Slayer next time.
00:33:25But yeah, again, I think to be successful, and we do about 800 clients in the horse business
00:33:34because I think we're the only CPA who's crazy enough to own 200 horses and have won 2,500
00:33:41races, et cetera.
00:33:42I think we know how to run it as a business.
00:33:46And part of the business is to make sure that you run in races that you're less than 10 to 1
00:33:52because the betting public is a very smart public.
00:33:55And if they're telling you that your odds are more than 10 to 1, I'm not so sure you
00:34:00should be running in those kinds of races.
00:34:02So that's what we try to do.
00:34:05And we try to have a variety of horses.
00:34:09It's very interesting.
00:34:10We had Mike Rapoli up at Babson.
00:34:12I also teach up at Babson College, okay.
00:34:15And Mike's got so many more horses than anybody else kind of thing.
00:34:19And he keeps on talking about, I hope I get lucky.
00:34:21I said, well, yeah, you're increasing your odds of being lucky when you have 70-some-odd
00:34:26two-year-olds.
00:34:28So again, I think you have to have different mixes, and you have to put them in different
00:34:33kinds of races.
00:34:34And then you have to be willing to sell them, okay, when they don't hit a certain level.
00:34:39So yeah, California was a good experience.
00:34:41And I'm looking forward not only to run horses out there, but actually come out there and
00:34:46do it.
00:34:46Because now that I know the travel expenses are tax-deductible and it counts toward my
00:34:52hours, what the heck?
00:34:53Well, you know what, Len?
00:34:55I'll let you take me out to dinner, and you can expense it and write it off on your taxes.
00:35:00How about that?
00:35:01That is a fantastic idea, okay.
00:35:05And if I took Bill out for supper, I could write it off as a bad debt.
00:35:08So yeah, it would be very, very good, kind of thing.
00:35:12All right, Len, let's get into the weeds and some of the tax stuff that people need to
00:35:16know with April 15th, 2024, not too far away.
00:35:19So what steps do you have to take to operate your horse operation as a business and therefore
00:35:26increase the opportunities to be profitable?
00:35:28Okay, number one is such a simple one, and yet the majority of people don't do it, Bill.
00:35:35And that is most people run their operation either as a sole proprietor or a two-person
00:35:43partnership, and they forget to do a limited liability company.
00:35:48Number one, from a liability point of view, it really makes sense because we were up at
00:35:54Saratoga this past summer, and there was a horse went off the track and went running
00:35:58through the stable area, knocking down all kinds of people.
00:36:02And I said, I would not like to be the owner of that horse, okay, if it's a sole proprietor,
00:36:10because the lawsuits are going to be coming left and right.
00:36:12So number one, it gives you that kind of protection.
00:36:16And number two, okay, there's a lot more tax deductions you can take as an LLC more than
00:36:23you can as a sole proprietor.
00:36:26So again, if you're incurring expenses like your rental place up at Saratoga or your transportation
00:36:35back and forth to the events or the T&E part of it, so much more of it, or the home office,
00:36:42these are all deductible, okay, in an LLC.
00:36:46Very hard to deduct them as a sole proprietor.
00:36:49So again, that's one.
00:36:50And you can do the LLC as of the end of the year, and you can still take all the expenses
00:36:56that you incurred during the year and superimpose it on that LLC tax return.
00:37:02So again, two-person LLC, that gives you protection plus the additional deductions.
00:37:09Number two, keeping a record, not day-to-day record, but keeping some kind of record that
00:37:16clearly shows you've put in 100 or more hours.
00:37:19The majority of clients that we pick up, okay, we say to me, I've got losses, but I've never
00:37:27been able to take them.
00:37:28And I look at it, because they're passive.
00:37:31Well, of course you can't take deductions if you're passive.
00:37:34You can only take them against passive income, and very few people have that bill.
00:37:38So the idea is make yourself active, and make yourself active with 100 hours or 500,
00:37:46whatever it takes in your particular situation, but do it that way.
00:37:51And again, it not only satisfies the active test, is you would never run a business as
00:37:58a part-time spectator.
00:38:02Most of the people in the horse business have made their money by being actively involved,
00:38:07knowing the business.
00:38:09So it's just a natural.
00:38:10Don't do it necessarily for tax purposes, although it certainly helps, but do it just
00:38:15because you want to know more about what's going on.
00:38:19And other people say to me, well, should I join a partnership?
00:38:23Well, yeah, because a partnership may also lead you to have a networking, which would
00:38:29help your main business.
00:38:30So again, the hours not only are for the horses, but also for your main business also.
00:38:37Kind of thing.
00:38:39What are some of the biggest mistakes that horse people make when it comes to taxes?
00:38:46Because we know all about horses, but sometimes taxes elude us.
00:38:51Yeah, OK.
00:38:53They don't know that they say sometimes, well, I bought a horse in December or November.
00:39:00OK, all I can do is take a month.
00:39:03No, you can take the whole year.
00:39:05They don't realize that you can make an election to take it for the whole year, not just the
00:39:10month that you hold it.
00:39:11Somebody else sent me a return the other day and said, would you look at this tax return?
00:39:15I can't understand.
00:39:16I've been examined three years in a row, and their accountant put down activity, hobby.
00:39:24I got to tell you, you're going to be examined every year when you put that hobby instead
00:39:28of and then number three, they don't have a strategy.
00:39:33You got to have some kind of strategy.
00:39:35Now, the strategy is not I hire an agent to buy my horses or I hire a trainer and he makes
00:39:42all the decisions.
00:39:44That's not a strategy.
00:39:46You got to be involved so you understand what's going on in those and then have a game plan.
00:39:52And the game plan is going to be, hey, do I want a particular area that I want to concentrate
00:39:58in?
00:39:58Do I want to have fillies because I know there's some residual to them in the coats I may not
00:40:05have.
00:40:06So again, it's the strategy also and taking advantage of some of the state programs.
00:40:13I mean, where you get extra dollars and you're running in, again, state breads.
00:40:18These are all positive things.
00:40:20They may not necessarily, you'd say, be taxes, but the taxes part is if you own them with
00:40:25a strategy, I can show you how you can maximize those tax deductions.
00:40:30If you have an office in your home that you use to watch the races to do involved with,
00:40:36well, then why aren't you taking tax deductions for it?
00:40:39Well, my accountant says that that's a red flag.
00:40:42Well, it used to be a red flag and it used to be that the IRS said you can't have a home
00:40:47office deduction if there's another place to do it.
00:40:50But all those rules changed after the COVID and you got to change with it.
00:40:55That's good.
00:40:56So imagine it's me and we're at the end of the year.
00:41:00You did my taxes last year for the first time.
00:41:03What else can I do?
00:41:04I wrote off my office.
00:41:05I wrote off Burt Reynolds over here in the corner.
00:41:08What else can I do to make you money?
00:41:11Yeah, let's stop.
00:41:12Yeah, let's stop with that one just for a second because that second one is a very important
00:41:16one.
00:41:17People say, well, to take a rental deduction, you have to be a real estate professional.
00:41:23No, there's a couple of exceptions.
00:41:25One is an income exception.
00:41:27And two is if you're renting to people in the business, you can take a rental deduction,
00:41:33which we do for you.
00:41:36Three is what kind of pension plan do you have?
00:41:40Well, I have an IRA or I have a simple.
00:41:44No, you want to maximize each of those pension things because the pension deduction doesn't
00:41:50have to be paid until next October 15th.
00:41:54And it still counts as being made as of December 31st.
00:41:59So again, each person's OEM and bill are different, but you analyze what they're doing.
00:42:06And then you look at the expenses.
00:42:08And because we do so many tax returns and we use the IRS checklist program, I can tell
00:42:15you if you have something on your return that's going to trigger the IRS to look at it.
00:42:21And we sit down with you and say, hey, do you have backup for this?
00:42:25And let's word it correctly.
00:42:31So you don't put down betting expenses.
00:42:34You put down an analysis.
00:42:37So again, we take it out of the category that's red flag and we put it into a category that
00:42:44is acceptable.
00:42:46How do you maximize your tax deductions?
00:42:48Okay.
00:42:49Number one, you sit down now before the end of the year and have somebody look at what
00:42:55you're doing.
00:42:55For instance, if you owned horses and you sent me, okay, I've had this many expenses
00:43:02through October.
00:43:04Okay.
00:43:05I would say to you, wait a second.
00:43:07I know having owned, okay, 200 horses myself.
00:43:11Okay.
00:43:12I know what the expenses, I know what the ratios are.
00:43:15I know what you're missing.
00:43:16Okay.
00:43:16You're missing this and that and the other.
00:43:18Have you donated any horses?
00:43:20Where is this horse?
00:43:21Okay.
00:43:22When did you buy it?
00:43:23Well, I bought it, but I didn't pay for it.
00:43:25And I don't have to pay for it until January.
00:43:27Doesn't make any difference when you pay for it.
00:43:29It's when you take a title and when you put it in use, that's deductible.
00:43:33Well, I bought a yearling and my accountant says that I can't take a tax deduction until
00:43:38a two-year-old year.
00:43:40Wrong.
00:43:40If that horse is in training, okay, you can take it now.
00:43:44Okay.
00:43:45I have a weanling that I expect to pinhook.
00:43:47Well, maybe if that's the purpose, then deductions involving the training are deductible now.
00:43:54It doesn't have to be capitalized.
00:43:56Well, what happens if I buy a mare in November or December and it's in full?
00:44:04You can actually take the stud fee as a deduction.
00:44:07So what I'm saying is that whether you use me or somebody else that's knowledgeable,
00:44:13somebody who is knowledgeable will be able to look at your expenses and tell you, okay,
00:44:19here's the way to do it.
00:44:20Well, then I went over the limit last year as far as the allowable deductions.
00:44:27That's fine.
00:44:28What do you mean it's fine?
00:44:29It means that that becomes a net operating loss carry for it and it's deductible the
00:44:34following year.
00:44:35So again, in your planning, here's some of the things that you should do.
00:44:39Should I pay a stud fee early?
00:44:41Well, you say, why should I pay a stud fee when I have a live foal?
00:44:46Because maybe you can get a deduction and a reduction of the stud fee because the farm
00:44:53may very well say to you, hey, if you want to pay it in advance, okay, you can still
00:44:58keep it as a live foal, but I'll give you a discount on it.
00:45:01So again, there's business and tax that you can do.
00:45:05And it's just crazy not to do them and take advantage of it if you could.
00:45:11And Len, I got one final question.
00:45:13This is Sue Finley's Christmas present from me.
00:45:17Does it pay to advertise in the TDM?
00:45:23Yeah, again, let's go back to that question in two ways, Sue.
00:45:28Number one, I said that I think it's worthwhile because it adds to the active business and
00:45:34you really want to be active because if active and you have losses, you can take them against
00:45:40all of your income, whereas if it's passive losses, it can only be taken against passive
00:45:46income and very few people have passive income.
00:45:49And number two, from a strategy point of view, when we've handled hundreds of revenue
00:45:55examinations and knock wood to date, we haven't lost any of them kind of thing.
00:45:59And one of the ways of showing somebody that somebody is involved in it as a business is
00:46:05to show that you've read things like TDM, you've listened to this show, you've asked
00:46:12questions.
00:46:13Again, that's part of the strategy.
00:46:16And if you have a strategy, even if the strategy doesn't necessarily work out and you've
00:46:21lost money for the year, you can show that you're in it as a business and not in it as
00:46:27a hobby.
00:46:29So Len, before we let you go, one last question.
00:46:32A new way of doing things in Thoroughbred Racing this year.
00:46:35Is HYSA good or bad for the horse industry?
00:46:38Well, not only HYSA, but also PETA.
00:46:42I think both of them are in for a positive kind of reaction, I think, as an industry.
00:46:49And again, I love this industry.
00:46:51We've been in it for a long, long time and we've had certain things that we said, hey,
00:46:57need change in it.
00:46:59And with change, there's always, you can't do it perfect the first time.
00:47:05So I really think that HYSA is doing a wonderful job on starting it.
00:47:11And yes, there's going to be blips in the area and we're going to go after little trainers
00:47:15sometime because they don't know who it is.
00:47:18But the important thing is when those blips occur, they look at it, we look at it, the
00:47:23industry looks at it.
00:47:24People come out of the woodwork to help.
00:47:27Okay.
00:47:28Pivot tools and things.
00:47:29I think those are all good.
00:47:31I think it's good to look at the two-year-old, okay, sales and say, hey, is there a better
00:47:37way to do it?
00:47:40Okay.
00:47:40I'm not saying eliminate them, but I'm saying, is there a better way of doing it?
00:47:45I think the more we look at it ourselves, the more we show the public that we're interested
00:47:52in this thing, it's good for the industry.
00:47:56Well, Len, it's great to always have you as a guest.
00:47:58Thank you so much for your support of the TDN Writer's Room.
00:48:02You've been with us since day one, and I hope we're sending a lot of our listeners and viewers
00:48:08your way as Green Group customers.
00:48:11And it's a lot of fun.
00:48:12We learn so much from you every time when we have you on.
00:48:15So thanks so much.
00:48:16And Bill, can I throw one more quick advertisement on?
00:48:20We'll be happy to do a confidential and complimentary review of anyone's returns that they want
00:48:27to send us to look at.
00:48:30And then if we show you, and I'll guarantee you, okay, they will come up with $2,500 of
00:48:34deductions that your accountant hasn't taken.
00:48:37If I'm wrong, I'll donate $250 to a horse charity.
00:48:42But one more step.
00:48:43I don't care.
00:48:44I really don't care whether you then end up using us or not.
00:48:49I just want more people to stay in this business because I think it's a great business to be
00:48:55in.
00:48:55And you guys keep doing what you're doing right.
00:48:57Okay.
00:48:58Thanks so much, Len.
00:48:59We'll catch up with you again in a few months.
00:49:01Best of luck with DJ Stables going forward.
00:49:04Amen.
00:49:04Amen.
00:49:05As the Green Group Guest of the Week, Len Green will receive a free one-hour tax consultation
00:49:10with himself.
00:49:13For more information on how the Green Group can save you taxes, visit www.greenco.com.
00:49:20We'll be right back after this message from the Green Group.
00:49:23Are you paying too much in taxes?
00:49:25The Green Group can help.
00:49:27There's a reason the most successful owners, breeders, and horsemen select the Green Group
00:49:31as their tax advisors.
00:49:33They save you money and share successful strategies.
00:49:37Over the past 40 years, the Green Group founder, Len Green, has owned and bred some of the
00:49:42best racehorses in the history of the sport, like Eclipse Award-winning champions, Jay
00:49:47Walk and Wonder Wheel.
00:49:48His DJ Stable competes at the highest level and has received the game's most prestigious
00:49:53honors.
00:49:54Len Green's in-depth, hands-on industry knowledge, combined with cutting-edge tax-saving strategies,
00:50:00has produced positive results for his clientele and has made the Green Group the top-rated
00:50:05accounting and tax firm in the thoroughbred business.
00:50:08For a confidential and complimentary consultation, contact us at 732-634-5100 or visit our website
00:50:16at www.greenco.com.
00:50:19The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:50:24Liam's Map, a two-time grade one winner with six consecutive triple-digit buyers,
00:50:29including a 114 to win the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile.
00:50:33He's already taking the lead as a sire with grade one winners Basin, Wicked Whisper,
00:50:39Colonel Liam and Juju's Map, plus multiple six-figure yearling sales and two-year-old
00:50:44sales up to $1.2 million.
00:50:47Proven on the track.
00:50:49Proven in the sales ring.
00:50:50Liam's Map, only at Lane's End.
00:50:54Do I want to remind you that the TDN Writer's Room is also brought to you by Lane's End.
00:50:59The Lane's End Stallion of the Week is none other than Arcangelo, available for inspection
00:51:05at Lane's End Farms.
00:51:06He was a back-to-back grade one winner and, in fact, the only two-time grade one winning
00:51:13three-year-old colt of 2023.
00:51:16And he'll be standing for $35,000 at Lane's End.
00:51:19If you loved Arrogate, you have to like Arcangelo.
00:51:23He is going to be absolutely beautiful.
00:51:25Having seen him in person at Santa Anita, I can only imagine what he is going to look
00:51:31like next year.
00:51:32He ran buyers of $105,000 and $103,000 and was a three-time graded stakes winner.
00:51:40He is Arcangelo, standing at Lane's End for $35,000.
00:51:44Go see him.
00:51:45Zoe, there was a lot of grumbling coming into the fall of this.
00:51:48Cigar Mile had been downgraded from a two to a one.
00:51:51The race had been around for 34 years, had been a grade one the whole time.
00:51:55You mentioned some of the more recent winners.
00:51:57But how about some of the winners back when this race started?
00:52:00You had 49er Quiet American Cigar win within the first six years.
00:52:07And we've seen Naira, in particular, really get pounded by the Graded Stakes Committee.
00:52:11The Woodward, one of the great races in the American racing calendar, is now a grade two.
00:52:14The Wood Memorial is a grade two.
00:52:16The Beldame, a grade two.
00:52:18Having said all that, I don't think the Graded Stakes Committee has gone nearly far enough.
00:52:27People have been talking about this and it's going to be a tough pill to swallow,
00:52:30but we have to drastically cut down on the number of graded stakes races and scale back
00:52:37ones to twos, twos to threes, threes to listed.
00:52:40Here's why.
00:52:42We're dealing with a very different set of circumstances from 15 years ago.
00:52:49Take these numbers.
00:52:50In 2008, there were 32,332 foals.
00:52:55They had 110 grade one races and 481 graded races.
00:53:02In 2023, there were 17,000 foals and you had 97 grade one races and 440 graded stakes races.
00:53:18Foal crop has gone down by 47 percent.
00:53:21The number of graded races has gone down by 8.3 percent.
00:53:26The number of graded one races has gone down only by 11.8 percent.
00:53:32It is time for some serious tough love and this is just not working.
00:53:38If I had time, I could come up with how many of these races had four and five horses in
00:53:42them as well.
00:53:44You can't use a system that worked in 2008, have a major shift in the breeding industry
00:53:51and use that same system in 2023.
00:53:55I can come up with a lot of races, not just the Cigar Mile that I think should be downgraded.
00:54:00I'll start with one coming up your way, the Malibu.
00:54:03Grade one restricted to three-year-olds?
00:54:06No, thank you.
00:54:06That's not a grade one race.
00:54:09Really?
00:54:10Think of the horses that have won it.
00:54:13You shouldn't.
00:54:15It's the last grade one for three-year-olds before they face older.
00:54:19I mean, there'll be four-year-olds next year, but it's a race that people point to.
00:54:24It's a good race.
00:54:27All right.
00:54:27Well, my point on that is that a race restricted to three-year-olds in December should not
00:54:31be a grade one, but maybe that was a poor choice of races because you're right.
00:54:35I mean, Flightline won.
00:54:37Yeah, I mean, you can't downgrade that race when you think of all of the champions that
00:54:42have won it over the past few years.
00:54:44And yes, maybe Baffert and a few others have dominated.
00:54:49They shouldn't be penalized for winning these races.
00:54:52They shouldn't be downgraded.
00:54:54I have a perfect example of a downgrade that I don't think.
00:54:58Well, I mean, yes, now it looks like it was perfectly done.
00:55:04All right.
00:55:04The Santa Anita Derby was downgraded in, I mean, the Santa Anita Oaks was downgraded
00:55:12in 2017, right?
00:55:15When they downgraded it in 2017, Midnight Bisou, Paradise Woods, Songbird, Stellar
00:55:21Wind, Fashion Plate, OK, Beholder had all won this race, and yet they downgraded it
00:55:28after Midnight Bisou won it.
00:55:30Like, why?
00:55:32Now, since then, maybe not quite so good.
00:55:35Swiss Diver, yes.
00:55:37Soothsayer, Desert Dawn, Faser.
00:55:40She would have been the favorite in the Oaks.
00:55:42But why would you downgrade the Santa Anita Oaks to a grade two right after Midnight Bisou,
00:55:49Paradise Woods and Songbird won it just because they were small fields?
00:55:53That's not really fair.
00:55:56That's my argument.
00:55:57All right, let's go back to my-
00:55:58I get where you're coming from.
00:56:00So let's go back to my original point.
00:56:02And maybe we got, I took us down a wrong path, perhaps with the Malibu.
00:56:07But do you see my point that this just is, it's not an accurate assessment of the quality
00:56:15of these races anymore.
00:56:17And that affects the breeding markets.
00:56:19I mean, you know, so-and-so won three grade one races and he's going to be a great sire.
00:56:23Well, maybe those three grade one races should have been grade twos.
00:56:26And then you're talking about something entirely differently.
00:56:28No, no, I'm absolutely with you on that.
00:56:30And the fact that you've laid it out also clearly the full crop has declined by 40 something
00:56:35percent.
00:56:36Well, then the graded stakes should probably decline the same way because otherwise you're
00:56:41getting, you know, listed horses winning grade twos and grade one races.
00:56:45I'm with you with that.
00:56:47The problem that we have is where do you take those graded stakes from?
00:56:52Racetracks themselves, that is their lifeline.
00:56:55They want to hold on to these graded stakes races to make themselves, you know, they're
00:57:01important.
00:57:02These grade one races, if you run a racetrack that has no graded stakes, who's going to
00:57:07visit you?
00:57:09You know, Chad Brown's not going to visit your racetrack.
00:57:12Bob Buffett's not coming.
00:57:13You don't have a graded stakes.
00:57:15But if you throw in these graded stakes races, they will come and people will bet on them
00:57:20and it just generates revenue.
00:57:22So the problem is going to be where do you take these graded stakes race from?
00:57:27Who makes the decision that it's it's going to be a lot to try and it's not going to
00:57:34happen overnight.
00:57:35And they have cut down, but they're going at too slow a pace.
00:57:40You know, every year we get a couple more went down.
00:57:43And look, based on the numbers, the 47 percent decline in the fall crop where you're only
00:57:50got 11 percent decline in grade ones.
00:57:53If they wanted to make those numbers even overnight, what would that be?
00:57:58They would get rid of 30 grade ones in one year, something like that.
00:58:02I'm not suggesting that.
00:58:03But, you know, you need to do instead of getting rid of two a year, you need to get rid of
00:58:08seven a year or something like that.
00:58:09Who's in charge of the greatest stakes committee?
00:58:12What's that?
00:58:12Who's in charge of it?
00:58:14TOBA.
00:58:15TOBA.
00:58:16Yeah.
00:58:16And, you know, we don't want to see that happen.
00:58:19This I know you're definitely disagree with.
00:58:22And it's a little bit off the wall, but should Derby prep races be grade ones?
00:58:26Should a prep race for a grade one also be a grade one?
00:58:31ZOEY FISHER.
00:58:32Yeah.
00:58:32TOBA.
00:58:33OK, I'm not so sure they should, Zoey.
00:58:35ZOEY FISHER.
00:58:35They're important races.
00:58:37TOBA.
00:58:37I know they're important races, but, you know, look, just that they're important races
00:58:44doesn't necessarily mean that they have the quality of a grade one field.
00:58:50I mean, you know, what we're having now is we're almost now have super grade ones and
00:58:55grade ones.
00:58:56Super grade ones are the Triple Crown races, the Breeders' Cup, Travers.
00:59:01ZOEY FISHER.
00:59:01Everyone knows that.
00:59:02TOBA.
00:59:02Pegasus World Cup.
00:59:04But, you know, so let's take a look.
00:59:06The Carter, which is I would be pretty sure is not going to be a grade one next year.
00:59:13But that's how does the Carter wind up in the same category as the Kentucky Derby?
00:59:19So, you know, now I'm really getting weird.
00:59:23Make them four grades, OK?
00:59:25I think there are one, two, three and four.
00:59:27But nobody wants to listen to me anyway, so.
00:59:29ZOEY FISHER.
00:59:31No, I mean, I see your point.
00:59:33But I mean, how often does the best horse not win the Kentucky Derby?
00:59:36TOBA.
00:59:37More often than not.
00:59:38ZOEY FISHER.
00:59:38You're going to penalize the best horse for winning the grade one,
00:59:42the grade two Florida Derby and not getting a great trip in a 20-horse field
00:59:47in the Kentucky Derby.
00:59:48Doesn't make any sense.
00:59:49TOBA.
00:59:50All right, I'm coming up with.
00:59:51ZOEY FISHER.
00:59:52I see where you're coming from, to a point.
00:59:55TOBA.
00:59:56Never said this was going to be easy.
00:59:57ZOEY FISHER.
00:59:57We'll get Randy to weigh in on this next week, because I know he's going to have an opinion as
01:00:02well.
01:00:03TOBA.
01:00:03Yes, it'll have something to do with Oliver Wendell Holmes' decision in the 1934 case
01:00:09of Bob Baffert versus the Arizona Racing Commission.
01:00:13ZOEY FISHER.
01:00:14We'll text him right now.
01:00:15He can start working on it.
01:00:16We'll need to prepare.
01:00:17TOBA.
01:00:18I'm kind of glad that we didn't have Randy on for this segment, because I got a feeling he
01:00:23could have maybe cut me to ribbons.
01:00:25But I don't know where he stands on this.
01:00:27But he's not a guy that I want to match, go toe-to-toe with when we're on opposite sides
01:00:34of the spectrum, because Randy's pretty darn good.
01:00:37ZOEY FISHER.
01:00:38The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by XBTV.
01:00:42Remember Forbidden Kingdom?
01:00:44At three, he won the San Vicente, the San Felipe, and was second in the Malibu.
01:00:49Now, he hasn't raced since finishing fourth in the triple bend in May.
01:00:54But just watch him work here.
01:00:56He's working solo and has been working right along.
01:00:59The Richard Mandeli trainee turned in an effortless half mile work in 46 and 3.
01:01:04Now, I urge you to log on to XBTV.com and take a look at this work.
01:01:10I'm not sure you're going to see a horse work any easier than Forbidden Kingdom.
01:01:15We'll see where he winds up, but he'll be coming to a race to you soon.
01:01:26So
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01:02:27Jackson Traveler reignited his career and became a stakes winner for the fourth season
01:02:32in a row Tuesday night when he sped to a five and a half length
01:02:35romp in the $100,000 Zia Park Sprint in New Mexico.
01:02:39In the process, he accounted for the 1,100th all-time win for West Point Thoroughbreds.
01:02:44It's a big number for those guys.
01:02:45Congratulations.
01:02:47And if you're interested in joining a West Point partnership to learn more,
01:02:50visit westpointtb.com.
01:02:54And Bill, while you're talking about big numbers,
01:02:57I just want to give a shout out to one, Giovanni Franco,
01:03:01who notched his 1,000th winner via DQ at Del Mar.
01:03:05And two, to my good buddy James Graham.
01:03:07If anybody knows James Graham, they will know he is the hardest working,
01:03:11nicest, funnest, greatest guy you'd ever want to meet for win number 3,000 at the fairgrounds.
01:03:18I've known him and his wife Lisa since they came over in 2002.
01:03:22And I can remember asking him, Bill, when he had the bug,
01:03:25because he didn't light the world on fire with his bug.
01:03:28I'm like, what's going to happen when you lose your bug?
01:03:30You know, I did pretty good through my bug year.
01:03:33And he was like, I'll just go back to galloping.
01:03:35It's fine.
01:03:36I'm having a good time.
01:03:37Just a great guy and a big congratulations to James Graham.
01:03:41Yeah, no doubt about it.
01:03:42Great to see him doing so well.
01:03:44All right.
01:03:44So that's a wrap on this week's show.
01:03:46I want to thank my partner, Zoe Cadman, and our Green Group Guest of the Week, Len Green,
01:03:52our associate producers, Katie Petruniak and Anthony LaRocca,
01:03:55and our editors, Leah LaRocca and Nathan Wilkinson.
01:03:59We'll be back next week.
01:04:01Thanks for joining us on the TDN Writers Room podcast.
01:04:03Cheers, Bill.