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00:00:00Flexibility. Convenience. Opportunity. Find your digital advantage in the Keeneland Digital
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00:00:24Good morning. It is 936, Wednesday, January 12th. This is the TDN Writer's Room presented
00:00:31by Keeneland. My name is Joe Bianca. I'm the associate editor of the Thoroughbred Daily
00:00:35News and it only took 119 or so episodes, but I think we finally have quality audio
00:00:41and video on all three of us. We did it, guys.
00:00:45Yes, we finally did it. I think I was always the weakest link in that, so I hope I look
00:00:49good today. But anyways, hey, and by the way, 38 days, just 38 days until opening
00:00:56day at Foner Park. And after the show, we need to discuss whether we want to go to Foner
00:01:02to do our 150th show or something like that.
00:01:06That's Bill Finley, by the way. Bill Finley did not say his name because he was just so
00:01:09excited about Foner Park over there.
00:01:12Everyone knows when it's Foner Park, it's definitely Finley.
00:01:16Jonathan Green, general manager of DJ Stable. And Bill, I would even pay for your flight
00:01:22to go out to Foner Park if you wanted to do the show live from there. Joe and I will stay
00:01:26in our homes, but if you wanted to go and be the man of the people and go out to Foner,
00:01:30I'm sure we could find it in the budget to do so.
00:01:33Yeah. Well, let's talk about that after the show.
00:01:36But since we're talking about dates and numbers and everything like that, we're 16 weeks to
00:01:42the Kentucky Derby. And did you guys know that four out of the past five Kentucky Derby
00:01:48winners only broke their maiden at this time?
00:01:52So four of the past five Kentucky Derby winners were still A-other-thans going into 16 weeks
00:01:57before the Derby. Think about that while you're looking at your future pulls.
00:02:00Yeah. Yet another reason I was going to say why future pulls are suckers bets. And also
00:02:06I noticed that Jon wasn't offering the jet to go to Foner Park.
00:02:11That's only for you, Joe. That's only gassed up and ready for Joe Bianca.
00:02:15And for some reason, every time you went on that plane, you asked to have your nuts warmed.
00:02:20I don't know why that is.
00:02:23The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland. The Keeneland January Horses of
00:02:27All Ages sale is going on right now and runs through this Friday, January 14th. The catalog
00:02:32is available online at January.Keeneland.com. Book one began on Tuesday. The sale had to
00:02:38be pushed back a day due to the snowstorms in Lexington. Session was highlighted by leading
00:02:42buyer and friend of the show, Three Chimneys, who purchased three of the top four horses
00:02:46of the day, including the Session topper, Princess Lele, who is a quality road daughter
00:02:51of Grade 1 winner Karina Mia, for $750,000. The Session's average of $72,350, up 23.22%
00:02:59from a year ago. Book one will wrap up today and book two will be held this Thursday and
00:03:04Friday. Still time to get involved.
00:03:07All right, so we have some new news on the Bob Baffert legal front. I know you're all
00:03:10very, very excited about that. You can't get enough Bob Baffert and Clark Brewster and
00:03:14Craig Robertson legal news. But there was some new movement in terms of Baffert potentially
00:03:19trying to sue Churchill Downs. We already had the whole saga with Baffert versus Naira
00:03:23last year. We won't go into that. But there was a lot of talk and a lot of speculation
00:03:27about whether Baffert was going to try to sue Churchill Downs to try to get his horses
00:03:30included in the Kentucky Derby and get them Derby points. Joe Drape got a draft complaint
00:03:36written by Clark Brewster and some of Baffert's lawyers saying, basically from what I can read,
00:03:42making the same argument that they made against Naira, that his due process rights were violated.
00:03:47Now the problem with that is Churchill Downs is a private company. It's different than Naira.
00:03:52The only reason that Bob Baffert got injunctive relief before Saratoga, the only reason why it's
00:03:57an ongoing thing with Naira is that Naira is a quasi-state entity. So you could make the argument
00:04:02that it was a quasi-government agency that was denying a citizen his due process rights.
00:04:08Churchill Downs is its own private thing. It has the right to exclude
00:04:12anybody it wants. And as Bill Karstenschen said in the quote in Joe Drape's story, he said Bob
00:04:16Baffert signed a paper before the Kentucky Derby agreeing to abide by all the medication rules.
00:04:23And the horse, Medina Spirit, failed the test after the Derby. So he was in violation of the
00:04:29document that he signed. So I don't know. Obviously, I'm not a legal expert. I don't know
00:04:34where this is going. But it seems to me he has a smaller percentage chance of winning against
00:04:38Churchill Downs than he did against Naira. And there really was no movement on this front for
00:04:43about a year or so. There was really all quiet on the Western front. Also reminds me, why the
00:04:48hell have we not gotten an official ruling on the Derby from the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission?
00:04:52They haven't even held a hearing on it. It seems to me like Baffert is unlikely to succeed here.
00:04:58But I wonder what Bill and John think. Well, yeah, and you're right, Joe. All along,
00:05:03we were wondering, he was suing everybody and their brother, but had left Churchill Downs in
00:05:08Kentucky alone up till this point. And again, I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen a lot of these
00:05:14things over the years and paid a lot of attention to this in my writing and reporting. I don't think
00:05:19Baffert has any chance to win this for the reasons you just said. I mean, the courts have time and
00:05:24time again upheld the rights of private property owners to exclude anybody. I mean, Joe, they could
00:05:30exclude you if they wanted to. And then they just can't. They don't necessarily have to have a
00:05:35reason. They just said, we don't like Joe Bianco and we don't want him hanging out at our racetrack.
00:05:39Wouldn't be the first establishment to do that.
00:05:42Right. I think I get what is going on here. Again, it's hard. I mean, I feel like I should
00:05:51have gone to law school because that's all we write about anymore is Baffert, Zayot,
00:05:54service, Navarro, crimes, lawsuits, etc. But I'm wondering if the play here is to try to get
00:06:03an injunction, which I think he probably can do that just, you know, a couple of weeks before
00:06:08the Derby. Look, you know, you got to give us an injunction to let us run as well. We try to
00:06:14work this way through the courts that may actually work. And if that's the case, I think Churchill
00:06:20would have no no recourse other than to let him run in this year's Kentucky Derby. But having said
00:06:28that, if he does do that, it's kind of just kicking the can down the road right now. He's
00:06:32banned from the twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three Derbys if he gets to run in twenty
00:06:37twenty two. And I don't know if he can. But then I think the ban would just extend to whenever it
00:06:42does start and maybe he would be banned from the twenty three and twenty four Derbys. But, you
00:06:47know, I I'm guessing that's what this is all about. But I know he's got good lawyers and they've
00:06:52done a good job on his behalf, but I don't think they have a snowball chance in hell to actually
00:06:58win this. I just want to follow up on that with Bill. You know, I think this is why it was big
00:07:02when Churchill announced that the Baffert horses would not accrue qualifying points along the way.
00:07:08So even if he gets even if he gets an injunction like to those horses, then retroactively get
00:07:13points and can can qualify for the Derby. That's that's what's unclear to me.
00:07:18Well, I don't know the answer to that, Joe, but I would guess that that's part of their
00:07:22lawsuit, that not only do we want to get back Bob into the Derby, but you got to start giving
00:07:28these horses points. But again, you know, a lot of this is just guesswork. I don't really know.
00:07:35But I mean, if if if they let him run, if he gets an injunction, let him run in the Derby.
00:07:40Yet Cornish and all the rest of the horses have no points. Then what's the point of that? So I
00:07:44think, you know, if you're doing a you got to do go for B as well. And again, I would think that
00:07:50the courts, if they decide that Baffert is deserving of some sort of injunctive relief,
00:07:55probably would say, yeah, you got to give these horses the points as well.
00:07:58So here's my question, then, and I honestly don't know the answer. Who's in charge of
00:08:03the accounting for the points? Is it is it Churchill Downs or is it an independent group?
00:08:10No, it's it's Churchill Downs. I mean, you know, they came up with the whole system. They came up
00:08:14with how many points are in each race. So, you know, whether it's 100 point race, a 50 point
00:08:17race, whatnot. But, you know, again, and I feel a little bit uncomfortable talking about this
00:08:21because it is, once again, just guessing. But I believe a court could tell them, you know,
00:08:28tell them what to do when it comes to these points. I don't I can't see a scenario where
00:08:32he's allowed to run in the Derby, but his horses aren't giving points. And he may not be able to
00:08:37run in the Derby, you know, but but just reading between the lines, I think that's what's going on.
00:08:43Right. And again, we don't we don't know the answer to this necessarily. But what's to say
00:08:48that if a horse of his goes to another trainer and starts earning points and then, you know,
00:08:54and then is it allowed to run, even though technically it was trained by Baffert? Like,
00:08:57there's a lot of muddy waters that we're heading into with this.
00:09:00Well, that's why, like, I think this is kind of crunch time now for the owners of potential Derby
00:09:05horses with Baffert because these points are going to start to really, you know, add up in
00:09:10the next month or two. I mean, obviously, the biggest points races are in April and closer to
00:09:14the Derby, but still like horses are earning points right now. He ran one, two in the sham
00:09:19and got no points out of it. So it's really starting to the rubber is going to meet the
00:09:23road here for the for the Baffert owners. And, you know, if they are going to mount a legal
00:09:27challenge, it kind of has to happen now. And so it has it has time to work through the courts.
00:09:33And Joe, just from and Bill, just from studying it the past couple of years, when, you know,
00:09:37trying to figure out and handicap how many points you really need, you need about 22,
00:09:4123 points to guarantee yourself one of the top 20 spots to get in. So, you know, Joe, to your point,
00:09:48like, even though the next couple of Kentucky Derby preps are lower points, theoretically,
00:09:54you win a 20 point race or you finish second in a 40 point race and you pretty much are on the
00:10:00cusp of getting into the Derby. Now, again, if unless, you know, unless you're going to run in
00:10:06another prep and the horse runs poorly yet technically you have enough points to get
00:10:09and you may not run at that point, but but you do have enough points. And even last year,
00:10:14and I know it was like a covid type year anyway, last year there were horses that were getting in
00:10:18that had like, you know, in the teens as far as points go. So it's really going to be interesting,
00:10:24especially when we do our handicapping pick. You know, we do our Kentucky Derby contest. I mean,
00:10:31you start going into like the third, fourth, fifth pick and there may be baffled horses on there.
00:10:36And maybe you take it as a flyer, you know, with the hopes that somehow the horse either
00:10:41changes hands or to a new trainer or the junction is in place if we're taking out of this playbook.
00:10:50And all of a sudden the horse is eligible, gets points retroactively and is eligible to run. So
00:10:55it's going to be really difficult as owners also to handicap whether or not your horse
00:10:59legitimately has a chance to get in. I just want to interject and again,
00:11:04kind of read between the lines and figure out what's happened. You know, Baffert, you know,
00:11:09literally has 50, 60 three year olds that at some point could be good enough to get into the
00:11:15Kentucky Derby and maybe five or six that are on most people's top 25 lists or something like that.
00:11:21And as we speak on January 12th, not one owner has taken away a three year old from him. I know
00:11:26they have a little bit more time to really make their decision, but I'm wondering if Baffert is,
00:11:31he must be telling the owners, you know, my lawyers are really smart. We're going to file
00:11:34this lawsuit. We're going to win. We're going to run in the Kentucky Derby and I'm going to
00:11:38be the trainer stick with me again. You know, that seems to be the logical scenario because
00:11:44if we don't see, I mean, you're right, John, I don't, you have a time that the points in these
00:11:50races, like the shammer are very small compared to, you know, like the San Diego Derby and Florida
00:11:55that I don't think there's any urgency to take the horses away from him and get the points now,
00:12:00but yeah, we're getting there. That I think that second round of preps, the, you know, the,
00:12:06the fountain of you, San Felipe rebel, the, the, the race before the major preps around that time,
00:12:14will owners start to get a little nervous? You know, I wait a minute, you're going to run in
00:12:19the San Felipe, but I'm not going to get any points. Well, you know, maybe I ought to pick
00:12:22up the phone and send the horse to Todd Fletcher. We'll see. I just wanted to read a couple of
00:12:27quotes from the, from the story, from Bill Karstens. I'm no fan of Churchill downs, as you
00:12:31know, but there were some pretty forceful quotes. One of them said this threatened lawsuit is yet
00:12:36another tactic for Mr. Baffert's well-worn playbook of obfuscating the facts, inventing
00:12:42excuses to explain positive drug tests and attempting to blame others to avoid responsibility
00:12:47for his own actions. That's pretty strong to me. He goes, we're considering any and all
00:12:52options to counter Sue and set the record straight and ensure Mr. Baffert is held accountable for all
00:12:57the reputational damage he has caused us. The irony is not lost on us that despite all of his
00:13:02violations, he is the one threatening to file lawsuits, claiming to be aggrieved. And just
00:13:08one more, he goes, I continue to hold out hope that Mr. Baffert will finally take responsibility
00:13:12for what has occurred under his care and on his watch. And we can move on to running this year's
00:13:18Derby. Pretty forceful stuff, I think. It's a different thing trying to sue Naira, which is
00:13:26basically a not-for-profit entity and Churchill Downs, which is the most for-profit entity in
00:13:36the business. So I'm not to disparage any of Naira's lawyers. I'm sure they have competent
00:13:41people on their legal team. But a major corporation generally has bigger, more high-profile, more
00:13:49high-powered lawyers than a place like Naira. So I don't know if he is promising that to his owners.
00:13:55I don't know. I don't know that this is a sure thing. The Naira thing certainly wasn't a sure
00:13:58thing. This seems even more unlikely that he's going to win this. But you're right that he could
00:14:03get this injunction that'll kind of just delay the process for a little bit. But yeah, crunch time
00:14:09coming up for these horses, if you want points. Speaking of Baffert, guys, there's been some
00:14:14interesting revelations, I guess, would be of people releasing their Eclipse Award votes. Now,
00:14:21Baffert is not a legitimate candidate to be trainer of the year. He had a very good year,
00:14:25as he always does. But he is not really in the running based on his credentials.
00:14:29And then there's the big controversy. What do you do with Medina Spirit? Do you give him credit for
00:14:35the Kentucky Derby win or not? But now it looks like there's some voters, and I've seen four or
00:14:42five people, including Joe Nevels from the Pollock Report, very respected guy, who is not going to
00:14:48vote for any Baffert horses for the Eclipse Awards. I mean, Corniche should be a slam dunk
00:14:55to be the obvious. He should be a unanimous winner of the two-year-old male division.
00:15:00John's favorite horse, Gamene, I voted for her. She deserves to be the Philly and Mayor sprint
00:15:05champion. I didn't vote for, I voted for Essential Quality, but not because Medina Spirit tested
00:15:11positive. I just thought, even with the Kentucky Derby, I thought Essential Quality had the better
00:15:17year and a more complete year of the two. To me, that's going too far. You know, you're penalized,
00:15:25Corniche, let's take him as an example. I mean, he's an, couldn't be a more obvious Eclipse Award
00:15:31winner. There's zero signs that there was any impropriety with his campaign, no drug positives,
00:15:37no reason to believe, or any knowledge that he was ever, quote unquote, doped at any time. Yeah,
00:15:43you know, people are mad at Baffert, and people, you know, want to, you know, run him out of the
00:15:48game. But when it comes to this, you know, you're supposed to, you know, you're supposed to be
00:15:53voting for the horse. You're not supposed to take the connections into account. I completely
00:15:58disagree. I voted for Baffert horses that I thought deserved to be champions. Yeah, and I would just
00:16:06jump in and say, you know, if you're going to, as a writer and as a voter, if you're going to start
00:16:12to go down this path, then do you look at other trainers that you think are fishy and say, okay,
00:16:19well, now I'm not going to vote for this person's horse, even though, again, they didn't test
00:16:23positive for anything. And there's no obvious impropriety other than just, I think that this
00:16:30trainer, you know, doesn't do the right thing. I mean, because there will be, I'm not going to name
00:16:35names on this, but there will be other horses on this ballot that are very high up on the list,
00:16:40where you would say, well, if I'm going down this path, and I'm going to say, you know,
00:16:44where there's smoke, there's fire and make an assumption, make a leap of faith, then I'm not
00:16:48voting for, you know, for XYZ as well. That wasn't a pun. I mean, you know, XY horse or ABC
00:16:55horse, because of that. And I mean, you can really start to unravel and go down, you know, very,
00:17:02very interesting path by doing this. I understand from baseball writers, you know, why they won't
00:17:08vote for certain players, especially those who did test positive, you know, even though they had
00:17:14tremendous careers or, you know, extended their careers, maybe because of impropriety. But this is
00:17:20going down a really interesting path, you know, for not only horses that are under the care of a
00:17:26trainer that's, you know, that's in question, but also for horses themselves that have never tested
00:17:32positive for any illegal substance, yet they're kind of getting painted because of the barn that
00:17:37they're in. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. It's different if the horse tested positive, like,
00:17:42you know, last year when Gamine had those two positive tests, if you didn't want to vote for
00:17:47her for champion, you know, I still think she was the best Philly sprinter in the country. But if
00:17:51you didn't want to vote for her because of the two positives, then I understand that. And if
00:17:56you don't want to vote for Medina Spirit, even though, like I said in the last segment, somehow
00:17:59there's still been no resolution or even close to a resolution on the derby thing. If you're going to
00:18:04take the assumption that he's going to get disqualified from the derby because of a drug
00:18:07test and you don't want to vote for him, that's totally fine. But for a horse like Corniche,
00:18:11who doesn't have any whiff of impropriety, like John said and Bill said, like, I don't get that.
00:18:18And like John makes it makes a good point about a slippery slope, because this is a game,
00:18:22unfortunately, where there are whispers about a lot of people and a lot of people at the very
00:18:26top of the game. So if you're going to take that route and say, you know, I'm not going to vote for
00:18:31any Baffert horses because I think he's cheating. You better be damn sure the people who are
00:18:36training the horses that you are going to vote for are clean as well. And I don't think that
00:18:40there's I don't think there's a lot of people like necessarily make that case for every single
00:18:45trainer that's on the ballot and that has a horse who could potentially win. Like, I think there are
00:18:50too many whispers and too many suspicions within the industry for a lot of people that that's not
00:18:55you know, you can't be consistent in that way. You can't say, well, Baffert's dirty,
00:18:58but this guy I know is clean. I don't think you can say that. Kind of reminds me a little bit.
00:19:03I don't know if you guys have heard, but Aaron Rodgers is up for NFL MVP. He's like one of the
00:19:08top contenders. He's a quarterback for the Green Bay Packers for anyone who doesn't know.
00:19:13And he's a great player. Hall of first ballot Hall of Famer is, you know, one of the best
00:19:17quarterbacks who's ever lived. But earlier this year, he got a little bit of hot water because
00:19:22he lied about being vaccinated. They asked him in the in the preseason, are you vaccinated?
00:19:27Try to dance around it a little bit. But he said, yeah. And then it turned out he tested
00:19:31positive for COVID. He wasn't vaccinated. He had to miss a game. He went on this big like,
00:19:36you know, try to save his reputation tour and said even crazier things about COVID and the
00:19:42vaccine. So he made himself out to be an asshole, honestly, like as someone who
00:19:47likes Aaron Rodgers as a player and has admired him for a long time, thought he was a pretty cool
00:19:52guy, pretty smart guy. It's really it's changed my opinion of him. But that has nothing to do with
00:19:57his accomplishments and his exploits on the field. It has absolutely nothing to do with it.
00:20:02If you want to if you want to remove every jerk from the Hall of Fame in every sport,
00:20:06it's going to be a long process to try to do that. And Aaron Rodgers, his vaccine stance has
00:20:11nothing to do with or not he deserves to be NFL MVP, unless the horse has tested positive and
00:20:17the horse has been dequeued and there's controversy surrounding the individual horse. It shouldn't
00:20:22matter that Bob Baffert trains it. Either the horse is a deserving champion based on his
00:20:26accomplishments or he's not. And Cornish is obviously a deserving champion. See,
00:20:31this is someone who has been very hard on Bob Baffert and thinks that the racing is
00:20:37letting him get away with a lot of stuff for a long time. Don't think that this is the way
00:20:40to take a stance against him. I just you know, there's there's too much of a slippery slope,
00:20:44like John said. The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland, mentioned before the Keeneland
00:20:49January is going on through this Friday, January 14th. All the sessions start at 10 a.m.
00:20:55We mentioned last week the Gunrunner No Guarantee season that was being auctioned off for charity to
00:21:01support the people who were devastated by the Kentucky tornadoes. You can read in today's
00:21:05TDN about that. It sold for $130,000. And I know John has a couple of notes on Keeneland as well.
00:21:11Yeah, Joe, one thing that really stood out just in the first day, I mean, aside from all the
00:21:14numbers being higher than they were last year, which is tremendous, and the R&A numbers are
00:21:18lower than they were last year, which is, again, a positive sign for the January sale, is the
00:21:24justify falls are still the story. And there were there were five that went through the ring
00:21:28yesterday, ranging from $150,000 to $410,000 and almost every level in between. And I know
00:21:38we got a very, very, very short list of top yearlings for the sale. And two of the justifies
00:21:45were on there. Both were being sold by Sequel Bloodstock. So congratulations to Becky Thomas
00:21:50for selling her two fillies for $175,000 and $300,000, respectively. Justify getting it done.
00:21:57I have a suspicion we're going to talk about Justify in a few minutes. But definitely get
00:22:01involved at Keeneland. There's still time. The second session goes on today. Two more sessions
00:22:05after today, Thursday and Friday. We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:22:12Start the new year strong at the Keeneland January Horses of All Ages Sale.
00:22:17Make the most of your 2022. With a new year comes new exciting opportunities at Keeneland.
00:22:30Be there at the first sale of the year beginning January 10.
00:22:48Echotown.
00:22:51It's Echotown for Joe Talamo. And Echotown
00:22:55rips away. And Echotown is drawing away in the stretch. Echotown wins the Alan Turkin Stakes.
00:23:02A sire line so prolific it repeats itself. Echotown.
00:23:11The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Coolmore. And the first session of Keeneland
00:23:15January. As John mentioned, Justify's progeny continued to be very popular and high demand.
00:23:20Triple crown winner was responsible for the session's priciest filly. Two-year-old daughter
00:23:24of champion Take Charge Brandy named Justly. I was gonna say named Justify. Named Justly,
00:23:29who sold for $410,000. Justify was the day's leading sire by both gross and average. And
00:23:35his studmate Munnings was a close second on the gross side. Also in racing, Caravaggio registered
00:23:41his 28th winner on Sunday with City Runner, who won at Southwell in England. He was a leading
00:23:46freshman sire last year with four Graded Stakes performers. Eight Stakes performers. This year,
00:23:50he stands at Ashford for $35,000 after relocating from Coolmore's base in Ireland two years ago.
00:23:57I've said it before. I could not be more excited to see Caravaggio's props now that he's moved
00:24:02to America. I think he's gonna be an absolute monster sire. And we've seen a couple of them
00:24:07in America so far. But now we're gonna start to see a lot more. And I'm super excited about that.
00:24:11I think he's gonna be great. And I feel like it's not a Coolmore bit if I don't mention Cupid.
00:24:17I don't have anything specific to say about Cupid, but go see Cupid for $5,000. He's really coming
00:24:22up. So we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. I think when the November handle numbers
00:24:27came out, I said that wagering was gonna top $12 billion for the first time in 2009. It did. That
00:24:34was an easy prediction to make. A little over $12.2 billion was wagering on horse races in the
00:24:39U.S. in 2021. First time since 2009 when $12.3 billion was bet. Wagering peaked in 2003 when
00:24:48$15.18 billion was bet. I don't think we'll ever get back there. Listen, I think this is great
00:24:53news. Bill had an interesting thought, though, in his weekend review. He talked to Pat Cummings
00:24:58about how we don't know necessarily where this increased handle is coming from. If it's just
00:25:04increased action from the computer, the CAW, the computer-assisted wagers,
00:25:09not necessarily a good thing because that just means that more whales are in the pool and fewer
00:25:13minnows and racing is chasing away the smaller better. I don't know if I buy that. Honestly,
00:25:18Pat's a very smart guy. Bill, the jury's out on him, how smart he is. But he listens to smart
00:25:25people. So I think it's an interesting point and interesting context. And I wish that we had more
00:25:30ideas about where this money is coming from. But my question is, why would that just be happening
00:25:34this year? Why would the handle just be going up this year based on the CAW wagerers? Why has that
00:25:41not happened in the past five years, 10 years or so? Obviously, they're getting more involved,
00:25:46but it seemed like an aberrational jump this year in handle. And I don't know that you can
00:25:50necessarily ascribe that to CAW wagers. But what do you think, Bill? Well, yeah, that's a good
00:25:56point. And John's favorite expression, I don't mean to pee in racing's cheerios, when they come
00:26:02out, you know, when they what on the surface looks like very good news with this handle,
00:26:06and it well could be. But one of the problems is there's zero transparency when it comes to this,
00:26:13so far as how much these guys are betting, where they're betting, what tracks are betting on,
00:26:18and there never will be. This is a big secret that is protected by everybody involved. I've
00:26:25never once seen anybody speak publicly about this or go on the record from an ADW or one of these
00:26:32like elite betting, elite betting operations from Curacao and Costa Rica and that sort of thing,
00:26:38or racetrack manager. But, you know, you just, because of that, you have to wonder,
00:26:45you know, Joe, I would you said that why would there be an aberration this year,
00:26:49I would make the same argument if it has nothing to do with the computer guys,
00:26:53why was there an aberration? And just Tom, Dick and Harry contributed more and bet more this year
00:26:59to make make the handle go up. And I will say this, I don't know, I don't know what's behind
00:27:05this. But I'm telling you, every single time you come out, every track, track x, y, z comes out
00:27:10with us, we we we we had a record handle at this meet, we were up 17%. They're not telling you the
00:27:17whole story, what contributed to that. And if it is the CAW players, this is not only not a good
00:27:24news story for horse racing, it is a really bad story for horse racing, because these guys are
00:27:30a major threat to the long term sustainability of the pair mutual markets. They're driving everybody
00:27:36out. And this is a problem that racing is going to have to, you know, faces. And you know, I don't
00:27:41want to be, you know, the sky is falling, and over the top here. But if you really look at this
00:27:47and the economics of this, what's happening here, this is a real problem for horse racing, that is
00:27:53not going to go away. So you know, I'm just speculating what happened here. And you say,
00:27:58well, why? Why would it be more this year? Well, because these guys are winning more,
00:28:03they're getting bolder, they're betting more, maybe there used to be and this is just maybes
00:28:07and guesses, maybe there used to be 10 of these groups out there. Now there's 15. You know, again,
00:28:13all questions that we have no answers for. So you know, when when racing comes out and says
00:28:19handle is up 10%. Well, that's not the complete story. And we're never going to get the complete
00:28:26story. That's the point I was trying to make. Well, I mean, the thing is, there was there was
00:28:30a variable though, last year with the COVID shutdown and racing getting the spotlight more
00:28:35to itself. And just in general, racing has a lot more face time now than it did in the past 10,
00:28:4115 years in terms of a day to day, visible racing product that's new. That's a new thing,
00:28:47relatively speaking in racing. And, you know, Naira and Fox Sports have been at the forefront
00:28:51of that. And I, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm too optimistic, but I would I would attribute the
00:28:57handle gains to that absent evidence of something else. And like you said, the problem is that we
00:29:02there is no transparency. And these guys are so secretive. And there's there's just so little data
00:29:07on how much they're wagering, where they're betting. And, you know, certain AEWs know who
00:29:13they are. Like we saw Naira, you know, try to restrict their action last year. And I think it
00:29:18made a difference. They did it in some exotic pools. They cut them off at a certain point.
00:29:23And when the wind pulls so that you can see these late odds, huge late odds drops,
00:29:27like we used to see. But yeah, I agree that there should be a lot more transparency on this.
00:29:32And just more transparency in general from the bet takers, because that's how we think I think we
00:29:37really get this data and suss out what it means is can we get from Naira or from Twin Spires,
00:29:45from ExpressBet, whoever it is, how many new signups did you have in the past year? How many
00:29:50did you have in the past month? What's the average of what these guys and these girls are betting
00:29:56per day? You know, were they never horse betters before? Did they come back aboard at some point?
00:30:02That's the kind of data that we really need to figure out what the handle numbers mean.
00:30:05I just refuse to say it's a negative when the handle tops 12 billion dollars,
00:30:10especially because there's so many negative things going on in the business. This seems
00:30:14like one that you can point to and say, hey, there's more money being wagered on U.S. races.
00:30:19You know what, Joe? You make very good points and you very well could be right.
00:30:24I mean, there is the phenomenon that the Naira shows obviously are a good thing on Fox.
00:30:31You know, the whole idea of the guy when the NBA and NHL and everything was shut down,
00:30:35had to have some action and went to bet on the fourth at Aqueduct and said, hey, this is cool.
00:30:39I like horse racing and kept betting. I'm perfectly willing to say that that, you know,
00:30:45those are all possibilities, but we're both agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.
00:30:49And the point you made is the major point that I'm trying to make.
00:30:53Wouldn't you really like to know the answer to this? And, you know, rather than just three guys
00:30:58here sitting around sitting, you know, thrown out, just throwing things against the wall?
00:31:03Maybe it's this, maybe it's that. And, you know, that's that's that's the that's the real issue
00:31:08that there is no trend and there's not going to be either. Nobody's going to have a come to Jesus
00:31:12moment and say, we're going to tell you all the business of the C.A.W. players and all the
00:31:16business of our A.D.W. You know, these are businesses and they don't want people to know
00:31:21don't want their competitors to know what's going on. And also the C.A.W. players, you know,
00:31:25guys are betting billions of dollars. You know, they want to they want to keep their privacy.
00:31:29I get that. I get that part of it. But I just, you know, in terms of like if you're Naira Bets
00:31:33and you got like 40,000 more signups this year than you did in 2020 or whatever it is,
00:31:39why would you not want to publicize that? Why would you not want to make that known to the public
00:31:44and, you know, try to, you know, build off of that and build off some positive PR? And I just
00:31:51don't get it. I don't get why if these A.D.W. are doing better, they can't make that information
00:31:57public. Maybe you're right. Maybe it's they don't want to make it public because it's mostly just
00:32:01the bigger bettors who are putting more money through the windows. But I don't know. I would
00:32:05love I would love to see that and hear that data no matter what it reveals. Just to piggyback off
00:32:11that, there was a story last week that Fox Sports is buying the rights to the Belmont stakes. Now,
00:32:17NBC has had the Belmont for a long time, I believe, before that ESPN had it. Fox has really
00:32:22invested in racing the last couple of years. I think it's a great thing, especially since,
00:32:27you know, the quotes from Mike Mulvihill and Bill's story about this. And we might have
00:32:31Mike on the show at some point. We can ask him about this directly. But he was basically talking
00:32:35about how he wants a bigger wagering push, a bigger push towards sports players and even just
00:32:41maybe sports bettors who haven't gotten involved in racing yet. And I think that's a big part of
00:32:46what we were just talking about and how you build on these handle gains is whether or not you can
00:32:52make a concerted push to increase the handle, not just increase the number of people watching races,
00:32:57but increase the number of people betting on them. That's the most important thing. And
00:33:00NBC does a great job with the with their Triple Crown broadcast and the Breeders' Cup broadcast.
00:33:05They do a great job and they have added more wagering aspects with Steve Kornacki,
00:33:10Eddie Olchek and Matt Bernier. I think they've done a good job in that regard,
00:33:14but there still is a lot of kind of I don't want to say fluff because it's really good television,
00:33:20but it's aside from the point that people bet on the horses. Like if you watch the NBC broadcast
00:33:24for maybe 15 minutes in a row, you wouldn't necessarily know that people are betting on
00:33:30this race. And I think that's a major, major component to growing handle is having a concerted
00:33:35thrust from the people who are broadcasting it themselves. It says, hey, this race is coming up.
00:33:39Here's where you can bet on it. And Fox Sports and Naira bets have that relationship now,
00:33:44which I think is huge. And I think that that can only be a good thing. But what do you guys think,
00:33:48Bill? Yeah, Joe, I totally agree. And, you know, the three of us again, we watch the Kentucky and
00:33:53I agree with you. I think NBC does a really good job. I really do. However, you know, traditionally,
00:33:59the Triple Crown coverage includes segments that Joe Bianca, Bill Finley and John Green go,
00:34:05you know, here's here's another picture of a 20 something with their bow tie on and the
00:34:10fancy hats. Give me a break. Get out of here. I want to know what the you know, what the
00:34:14super effect is going to pay in the derby sort of thing. And I understand there's a place for that.
00:34:19But I think that what Fox is doing is great. And I think ultimately they'll be more successful. And
00:34:27the thing that in my interview with Mike Mulvihill from Fox is they are partners in Naira bets.
00:34:32And they also have their own sports betting platform, Fox Sports. So, you know, you never
00:34:38really hear heard in the past people talking about it this way. This is a gambling event.
00:34:42We want to cover it as a gambling event. And we want to promote gambling on there. You know,
00:34:48that's that's really cool. I like that. You know, and if somebody's turned off by that,
00:34:51and they want to they miss all the, you know, the shots of people in their fancy clothes and
00:34:57their hats and the you know, the guys from figure skating commenting on who's going to
00:35:01win the Kentucky Derby. Well, you know, whatever. That's not for me. And I love the fact that
00:35:07there's another entity that wants to be part of horse racing, albeit look, they're chasing the
00:35:12dollar. I get it. I'm not naive. But but the main thing is that, you know, there's another major
00:35:18force that wants to be involved. Because a couple of years ago, when everything was going on in
00:35:22California with the breakdowns, and and most recently, you know, with with, you know, with
00:35:27certain political groups coming in and asking for our, you know, to have this industry be extinct.
00:35:34You know, there wasn't anyone coming on the white horse to save us. And now with Fox coming in,
00:35:39that's a major statement that they see that that we have strength, they see that we're going to,
00:35:44you know, be able to bring in more dollars, you know, overall and for their platforms.
00:35:48So I think it's great. You know, the old proverb of iron sharpens iron, I love the fact that that
00:35:54there's another major force that's coming in here, because I think the competition is going to raise
00:35:58everyone's game. Well, and the other thing is to that Fox is also like, like Bill mentioned,
00:36:04is involved with sports betting. And, you know, we talked to people, you know, stakeholders in
00:36:08this industry all the time about how big it is to get on the sports betting platforms and to be
00:36:14part of that ecosystem for gamblers. And, you know, it really helps to have that someone who's
00:36:21already invested in sports betting, now taking an investment in racing as well, because now you have
00:36:26that institutional push to try to couple those two things. And it's just would be kind of ironic,
00:36:32because I think so many people think rightfully so are like very pessimistic about sports betting
00:36:37becoming legal, because we've had this monopoly for so long on legal online account majoring
00:36:42that now they're going to take a huge chunk of. But in this case, it actually might be a good
00:36:46thing to have someone who's invested in sports betting also be invested in racing because they
00:36:50can more easily marry those two things than someone like, you know, trying to lobby from the
00:36:55outside to get those those two sports together. So I think that that's that might be a little
00:37:00sneaky benefit from this partnership as well. And I think it's something to be excited about.
00:37:06The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by XBTV. XBTV is work out of the week. Hot Rod Charlie put
00:37:12in a work at San Anito on Saturday, going four furlongs and 48 and four under regular writer
00:37:17Favian Pratt, who now we can say is a friend of the show as well. Winner of last year's
00:37:21Pennsylvania Derby is aiming for the Dubai World Cup, could make his next start in Dubai in the
00:37:26Kerlin Stakes in February. Alan Carrasso has a story with Doug O'Neill about Hot Rod Charlie
00:37:31in today's TDN. Obviously the horse that we all enjoyed watching as a three-year-old. He did run
00:37:36second as a big favorite in the San Antonio, so he's going to be looking to bounce back from that.
00:37:40But, you know, Doug O'Neill's always full speed ahead with these top horses, so you got to expect
00:37:46he's heading to Dubai no matter what. And if you want to see his workouts and all of the workouts
00:37:50for the upcoming Pegasus and for the Dubai World Cup, for the Saudi Cup, go check out XBTV.com.
00:37:56We'll be right back after this message from XBTV.
00:38:10So
00:38:30here in Pennsylvania, we're proud of our breeding program, the best in North America,
00:38:35but we're also proud to be leaders in this industry. The PA Horse Breeders Association
00:38:40is funding cutting-edge research at PenVet into equine health and safety, and we endorse the SAFE
00:38:45Act to help protect the most vulnerable horses. Plus, we're pleased to support the aftercare
00:38:50programs set up by our horseman's groups. Just a few of the reasons why you should join us in
00:38:56Pennsylvania, the premier place to breed and race. The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by the
00:39:02Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association. I want to welcome the new sponsor, the Pennsylvania Breeders.
00:39:0612th annual PHBA Stallion Auction will run Saturday, January 15th through Saturday,
00:39:12January 22nd. Seasons include Kentucky-based stallions like Accelerate, Army Mule, Dialed In,
00:39:17Honor Code, The Factor, and Tom's Deta, as well as stallions based in Pennsylvania, New York,
00:39:22Maryland. Visit Thoroughly Bred to register prior to the auction and to learn more. Over the last
00:39:28nine years, the PHBA breeding fund has distributed an average of $28 million each year in awards,
00:39:34owner bonuses, and restricted race purses. Incentives include a 50% breeder award for
00:39:39PA-sired, PA-breds, and 25% for non-PA-sired, PA-breds for any maiden who finishes in the money.
00:39:46That's big money, especially with some of the stakes in the purses they're giving away at
00:39:50parks. All other races offer 40% awards to PA-sired, PA-breds, and 20% to non-PA-sired,
00:39:57PA-breds. So, welcome aboard to the PHBA. And as I said, the Stallion Auction will run Saturday,
00:40:02January 15th through the following Saturday, January 22nd. The Green Group Guest of the Week
00:40:08is sponsored by The Green Group, an accounting, tax, consulting, and advisory firm specializing
00:40:12in the thoroughbred industry. With over 500 clients in the horse business, they have proven
00:40:16strategies to save you taxes. Learn more about how they can help you at www.greenco.com. So,
00:40:22we're thrilled this week to bring on as The Green Group Guest of the Week, the host of the Jason
00:40:26Beam podcast over on Twin Spires, also the track announcer for Tampa Bay Downs, Jason Beam. Thanks
00:40:31so much for coming on. It's good to be here, guys. Thanks for having me. Good to have you. Good
00:40:35to talk to you. And this is kind of podcast worlds colliding, I think, because Jason's podcast is
00:40:40extremely popular. This one is getting there. We're getting into the same stratosphere, I think,
00:40:45not quite there yet. But I wanted to ask about that and how the genesis of that podcast came
00:40:51and how it's grown in popularity and maybe why you think it's grown in popularity so much over time.
00:40:57Yeah. Actually, Friday will be six years since our first show, which is crazy to think about,
00:41:02I think, which you guys might be airing Fridays. But January 14th of 2016, we started.
00:41:08What happened was the folks at BetAmerica, which I don't think is a thing anymore,
00:41:15they had seen... I used to do a thing on Twitter called the Be Me Awards, and they had seen that.
00:41:19And the guy who was the boss there, Pete Laverick, he messaged me and he goes,
00:41:24I want to do something with you. And I said, okay, great. I said, because I'm doing Uber right now.
00:41:27I have no job. And he literally said, pitch me a job. And so I said, I would love to do a daily
00:41:35podcast. And he was in for it. And that was literally like Christmas, and we were up and
00:41:40going two weeks later. It really came together pretty fast and just took the model from what a
00:41:47lot of podcasts were doing, 20 minutes of chat and 25 minutes of interview, and then you're out.
00:41:52And we've been really fortunate. People from the business come on the show. As you guys know,
00:41:58getting guests is a bit of a burden. It was funny. Somebody asked me, they're like,
00:42:02does it annoy you that there's become so many racing podcasts? I was like, no,
00:42:04I think it's great. The more people talk about racing, the better.
00:42:07The only hiccup is getting guests because now you're forcing a lot of the same people to do
00:42:11three, four interviews a week or stuff like that. That's the only difficult part of there being so
00:42:16many shows. But no, it's been amazing. I love it. I love broadcasting. And I'll get people that'll
00:42:22say, oh, should I do a podcast? I said, if you like to broadcast, do a podcast because it's fun.
00:42:27But don't do it because you think you should have one because there's already a lot.
00:42:31And so, no, it's been an awesome experience. And when Bed America was bought by Churchill,
00:42:36I was worried that it would go away. And Churchill told me right away, they're like,
00:42:39we love the show. We want you to keep doing it. And I think I'm the only person left from
00:42:43the whole Bed America. So everybody else kind of scattered, but I feel very fortunate about that.
00:42:48Well, Jason, thanks for joining us. It's really great to talk to you. And I want to switch gears
00:42:53a little bit. You have the job now at Tampa Bay Downs, but to get there was a rocky road for you,
00:43:00I think, both professionally and personally. And let's talk about the personal aspects of it. And I
00:43:06don't think there's a problem asking you about this because you've been so open and I think
00:43:10courageously so about some of your struggles in life. And basically, could you tell me the
00:43:16rest of the story? What was going on in your life? And why were things at some one point
00:43:21kind of difficult for you? I had started having panic attacks. I was in law school at Gonzaga
00:43:27University. I was 22 or 23. And I was in constitutional law class and had a panic
00:43:32attack and didn't know what it was and walked out of class and freaked out in the hallway.
00:43:37And that was the start of really what was 15 or 16 years of pretty significant trouble with
00:43:43anxiety ranging from doing okay to being hospitalized several times and really struggling
00:43:50with... Depression was never an initial symptom for me. It was always because the anxiety got
00:43:55so bad that you just start avoiding things and your world gets very small. And my world...
00:44:01I was agoraphobic. I didn't leave the house a lot for years. And I'd go to the grocery store
00:44:06at night when there was nobody there. If I had to stand in a line, that was torture for me.
00:44:11But it was on and off. And I'd be doing all right some years. And when I started announcing in 2006,
00:44:20I was actually doing pretty well. And I went to River Downs for my first year. And that went
00:44:23great. And it was kind of like, oh, maybe I kind of got this licked. And then I started at Portland
00:44:29and did okay. And then my second year at River Downs, I really struggled. And that was the first
00:44:33time I had ever had a real depression. And I didn't know what it was. I was in line at Chipotle
00:44:37one day just crying. And I didn't know why. And so I didn't really... I hadn't done a lot of
00:44:44therapy up till then. And so I started doing that and kind of learned what I was dealing with.
00:44:48And also that it wasn't uncommon. I think that for me was one of the biggest helps early on was
00:44:53realizing that mental health issues are things that a lot of people struggle with.
00:44:57And when you're by yourself and everybody in your family thinks like, why are you being so
00:45:04strange or sad? My uncle used to always say, what do you have to be sad about?
00:45:09And when people say that, then it makes you feel worse. Because then you feel like you're
00:45:12ungrateful or something like that. But yeah, it was a long battle with that. I left River Downs.
00:45:18Derby day of 08 was my last day there. I had really been struggling when the season started
00:45:23in April. I'd call a race. I'd break down in tears. I had no energy. I would be on the floor.
00:45:33What are they called? Like an air mattress on the floor at the River Downs announcer's booth,
00:45:38just so I could lay down because I couldn't keep my body up. I was just so depressed.
00:45:42And I remember after the second to last race, I called my buddy Vince downstairs. I told him,
00:45:46I said, I can't do this anymore. And I went to the hospital. I watched the derby
00:45:49with the doctor in the ER when Big Brown won. And I went home after that. And I kind of thought
00:45:54I was done with racing then. I remember looking into other jobs. And Portland,
00:45:59where I had been announcing, actually called a month later and offered me a year-round position
00:46:03so I went down there. And it was a lot of the same struggles down there. Portland was good in
00:46:07some senses. I got to kind of learn more about the management side of racing and business and
00:46:12all that. But it was just cycles of doing okay and then doing really poorly. And when I was doing
00:46:19well, when I left Portland and went to Louisiana Downs, and I was there for a quarter horsemeat,
00:46:23and everything just kind of crashed again. I didn't know how to manage and take care of myself
00:46:30in regards to anxiety, especially on the road. That was a big trigger for me. And so
00:46:33at that point, I moved home and got out of racing for about a year. And then that was when Bed
00:46:37America came about. Yeah. And Jason, we appreciate it because it's certainly an affliction that a lot
00:46:45of us are under and have to deal with on a regular basis. And I give you tremendous credit for being
00:46:53open and for talking about it the way you are. And when you're in the spotlight like you are,
00:46:58not only with the podcast, but also as a track announcer, there's a lot of highs and
00:47:02ears on you at all times. So how do you generate the emotion and the energy to be able to get you
00:47:09through a race day and make it so it's a great experience for all of us?
00:47:16That was hard for a lot of years. In fact, I would say a lot of years I worked just in a
00:47:21get-through-it mindset, not in a let's succeed and let's really call good races today. It was
00:47:27just about getting through. My second to last year at Portland, I called all the races from
00:47:31downstairs off of TV because I was scared to go up on the roof. And so none of those race calls
00:47:36were good. It was just literally so-and-so's on the lead, this one's in second, really going
00:47:41through the motions and stuff like that. But yeah, I really turned a corner in regards to my anxiety
00:47:48stuff in 2018. And I had been out of announcing for I think three years at that point. And
00:47:52Pete Aiello gave me a call and asked me to fill in that at Calder,
00:47:56for the artist formerly known as Calder. And it was in the trailers that they had stacked
00:48:02up down there. It was a real weird situation. But for me, it was like it gave me a chance to
00:48:07finish my announcing career on my terms. At least that was my thinking at the time.
00:48:11And it went really well. And it felt so good to like... At that point, I was just obviously
00:48:16kind of getting through it then as well, but it was getting through it in a good way. And
00:48:20like a month after that, I got offered Monmouth fill-in and Colonial as the... I mean, it was
00:48:27crazy how the phone started ringing once I had those good two weeks. And it's been a good few
00:48:32years since then, luckily. But I still deal with it. I was telling somebody the other day,
00:48:36because I don't really take guests up to the booth. And I've had a few people like,
00:48:40oh, I want to come watch or anything. Because I still get nervous. And I have all my little
00:48:45my little anxiety remedy things before a race goes off. And there was a race the other day.
00:48:51Oh, God. This is bad. I should know his name. Golden Glider?
00:48:54Right. Oh, yeah. The Cassie horse.
00:48:56Yeah. I just had bad anxiety that day. And before that race in particular, because I knew a lot of
00:49:04people were gonna be watching, but it was more so. It just happened that race... If you listen
00:49:07to the call, I deliberately went very slow because I was just trying to make sure I could keep my
00:49:12breath because I just was getting worked up and stuff. And the rest of the day, it was kind of a
00:49:16slow get back to normal after that. And so those things happen. I have not had a meet since ever
00:49:24where there's not a few races where I'm a little bit antsy. But I know how to deal with them.
00:49:28For me, the most important thing is I know I'm not in any danger because that's what used to
00:49:30really send me up was my heart would flutter or I'd just get lightheaded or whatever. And I would
00:49:37go zero to 60. I would go from I'm fine to I'm dying real, real fast. And your body reacts to
00:49:42that thought and then you really do feel awful. And so I've now learned that I'm in no danger
00:49:48from anxiety physically. All these things might happen, but I'm not in any danger. And
00:49:55if I have to take an extra breath and a call once in a while, I don't think anybody's gonna care.
00:49:59Right. And I know as an owner, I appreciated your call last year, the Tampa Bay Derby.
00:50:05You know, and, you know, that was certainly a great one for us when helium one. And
00:50:10I wasn't there. That was. Well, then it's not. It wasn't good at all.
00:50:16Other than the fact that we won, who gives a crap?
00:50:22Isn't that the reason why we have podcasts is just so we can humblebrags.
00:50:28So I wanted to ask about Tampa and, you know, you feel like you've turned a corner with this
00:50:33stuff, but obviously it's a lifelong it's a lifelong struggle, but you wouldn't know that
00:50:37you're you're struggling with anything. I think you're doing a great job and, you know, really
00:50:41brought like a fresh voice to Tampa. And Tampa is a place that's a little interesting, I think,
00:50:45because it kind of gets overshadowed in the winter by Gulfstream and the championship meet.
00:50:49But they do a lot of things. Well, they got good takeout rates. They got a beautiful turf course
00:50:54just in terms of even just something as small as, like I said, and press releases out with
00:50:58photos and quotes and stuff. They do a really good job. What's your experience been like with
00:51:02Tampa management and what are some of the things that you think that they do well?
00:51:06Oh, man, they've been unreal. It's funny when the job opened up, I was buying a watch. I was in the
00:51:13parking lot at the jewelry store and it was like a half hour till they open. So I was just sitting
00:51:16playing on Twitter and I'd read that Richard was retiring. And, you know, anytime a job opens
00:51:22for an announcer, I think we at least think about it, right? Like, you know, when Keith Jones
00:51:25retired, like, you know, I was like, well, parks, you know, and I ended up not applying just because
00:51:30it wasn't, you know, with doing the podcast and I have like Colonial is so amazing to me and Grants
00:51:34Pass is great to me. So it's like, I don't want to, I just have such a great circuit. I don't want
00:51:38to foul with it at all. But you still think about it, right? And when that one came up, I was like,
00:51:44this is like the biggest no brainer to apply for ever. But I didn't have any connections here.
00:51:48And so that in getting announcing jobs, unfortunately, not I shouldn't say unfortunately,
00:51:52but, you know, who you know is important. And because it's usually somebody who knows
00:51:56somebody who's doing the hiring. And I didn't know anybody at Tampa other than Allison,
00:52:00who's the racing secretary, because she does Colonial, but I'd only met her a couple of times.
00:52:04And, you know, she wasn't going to be in on the decision at all. But I called, I gave a couple
00:52:09days for, you know, because some guys will call like the second the press release comes out,
00:52:13I'm like, you got to let the chair get cool a little bit. But yeah, I called a few days later
00:52:18and I talked to Margo and, and she had said she had heard me at Monmouth and Gulfstream West.
00:52:23And she, she said she was glad I was applying. And so immediately I was like, Oh,
00:52:26maybe, maybe I got a shot here. And, you know, didn't hear anything back till after Derby. And
00:52:31then we, you know, I got a call and we, we did the interview and they actually offered me the
00:52:35job on my birthday, which was really cool. She called, she called first thing in the morning.
00:52:38I was on my, my morning walk. And I told her, I said, it's my birthday. You can not call with
00:52:43a DJ. And she goes, well, that's my birthday. Also, I got the job on my birthday. There you go.
00:52:50Oh, man.
00:52:52No, but I mean, I was bragging about getting the table. But no, it was, it's just been,
00:53:02they've been so nice to me. I mean, Margo and, and Peter, who's the general manager,
00:53:06like they just, they go, have gone out of their way to make sure I'm happy, comfortable. It's,
00:53:10it's a very familial, I mean, everybody that's worked there has worked there 20, 25 years.
00:53:14Like, you know, and that was one of the things I liked about the job was that it seemed,
00:53:18you know, and I told them, I said, like, you know, cause she, Margo kind of said in the interview,
00:53:23she was like, you know, we want someone that's going to grow with us and be here. And we don't
00:53:26want someone who's just trying to use us as a stepping stone. And, you know, I said, for me,
00:53:29this is kind of the top because, you know, it is one of the bigger tracks. I mean, we handled like
00:53:337 million or 6.8 or something on Saturday. I mean, it's, you know, they're doing great business.
00:53:37And, um, but also like, you know, I don't want to live in New York and no disrespect
00:53:43and I'm not going to, I'm not a, you know, I'm not an IRA caller, a Santa Anita caller. So like,
00:53:46this is, this is to me the pinnacle of where I want to be in the winter time. And, um, and it's
00:53:51exceeded my expectations just as a place. The area is obviously great. I mean, I found myself
00:53:56complaining that it was 68 yesterday, which means I'm a true Floridian. It's so funny. Cause I went
00:54:03to training on, on Tuesday morning and it was, I think it was like 56 or something. It was,
00:54:08and I had like a little puffer vest on, but a t-shirt and I'm from Seattle. So I 58 in the
00:54:12morning, sign me up. And everybody like there was guys with snow caps on the outriders complain
00:54:18about how cold it is. It was like, if I, I'm like, if I become this soft and then the next
00:54:22day I'm like, God, I'm wearing long sleeves. And it's, I think the high 70 today.
00:54:27So Jason, you're, there are many announcers out there that can get a little bit
00:54:33carried away, so to speak, uh, you know, kind of the histrionics and the screaming, that's not you.
00:54:38And I think I've read that, that, you know, you believe that the announcer shouldn't be
00:54:42the story. So, you know, what is sort of your theory of announcing and what is your style?
00:54:47Yeah, I, um, I, I, I do want to, I want to help tell the story and certainly be a part of it. I
00:54:53mean, to me, that was what always moved me about race callers was, um, I just thought they were
00:54:57such a part of the experience, you know, growing up at long acres, Gary Henson was our guy. And
00:55:01he had this, you know, similar to his dad, he basically had his dad's voice, you know,
00:55:04on the outside here's Captain Gondo and, you know, and that kind of thing.
00:55:08But I used to just love that. And I loved, you know, and obviously guys like Tom Durkin and
00:55:12Vic Stauffer that paint these amazing pictures and have these great lines and all that kind of stuff.
00:55:16Like, I just can't, I don't think I can do that well. So, so I, A, I don't think it'd be a
00:55:20strength of mine, but B, I just, you know, Frank Miramonte, I remember telling me one time when I
00:55:25went to mom, but he's like, look, they don't like a lot of BS in Jersey. He goes, they really just
00:55:29want the call and they don't, they don't want you talking in the gate, telling every horse that's
00:55:32coming in. And, um, and that always kind of stuck with me because my, you know, my personality and
00:55:36my show and stuff and my Twitter accounts are a little more out there and a little more vocal
00:55:41and joking around and fun. But my race calling is pretty opposite of that. I try to stick to
00:55:45the books. I just, I want to be pleasant on the ear to the listener is to me, one of the most
00:55:49important things. Cause I think if your voice is a little bit shrill, I think it can, people want
00:55:53to just turn it off. And so if I, if I can deliver a clean, accurate call, you know, one of the guys
00:55:59who is inspired my style, I think is Dave Rodman. Um, I feel like everybody mentions him as like,
00:56:05oh, he's so underrated. Um, and you could argue that he is, I would say since everybody thinks
00:56:10he's underrated, that he's not underrated. We all think he's very, very good. Um, and so he's
00:56:14someone I really admire as far as a style component, but you know, a lot of the guys,
00:56:19the styles now are, are pretty similar, but he sounds a little different, but the style is,
00:56:24has become pretty, um, you know, you listen back to the, a lot of the guys who have just retired,
00:56:29Richard and Keith Jones and John Curran and, uh, and Tom, Tom's in a different stratosphere.
00:56:34So I never included him in these conversations, but, um, they were very unique sounding and it's
00:56:40the same in like baseball too. Like those, those announcers from the seventies and eighties,
00:56:43they all had these real over the top charismatic, you know, the, the idea of the catchphrase has
00:56:49kind of gone away a lot in recent years. And so it's, it's, you know, things like that. They,
00:56:54they come and go. And it's, I don't know. It's, it's an interesting thing to kind of watch.
00:56:58Cause I don't, I don't think there's a ton of, and I include myself in this. Like, I don't think
00:57:02there's anybody that's like super unique right now, at least sounding maybe like a, you know,
00:57:06I mean, Richard was completely unique in how he sounded like there was never a doubt when you
00:57:10heard Richard, what track you were watching. And Jason, how do you, how do you prepare for a race?
00:57:16I mean, you're, you're, it's really rapid fire from, from one o'clock to five o'clock. You're,
00:57:20you know, you're, you're on, on the, on the, on the mic every 20, 25 minutes. Um, you know,
00:57:25how do you, in your mind, remember names, colors, jockeys, you know, et cetera.
00:57:31I'm a color. I use my, uh, my colored pencils. Uh, I I'd say probably about two thirds of the
00:57:37guys I know color, the programs, what I've learned from going and hanging out with other guys in the
00:57:42booth is that I'm an over-preparer, at least compared to them. Like a lot of guys seem to
00:57:46really just take the last minute or two and do a quick scan. And then they got it. I'm like in
00:57:50there, you know, really going over them over and over again. I'm always just petrified about not
00:57:55remembering the names. Cause I know if you don't do that, you get behind or you get lost or you
00:58:00miss something. And that's where you can really kind of get in trouble with, uh, with calling
00:58:04the race. But another thing too, is I've been at least lately doing fill-ins or doing shorter
00:58:09meets. This is kind of my first real long meet in a long time and long meets by the end of the
00:58:14meet. In fact, I'm even finding now two months in, I'm seeing horses for the third and fourth time,
00:58:18which of course I'm not going to do a colonial and, um, and grants pass grants pass. We see
00:58:22them quite a bit, but, um, that, that helps with the memorization part. Cause you just,
00:58:26you really become accustomed to, uh, to who's who and the silks and all that.
00:58:31Like what gets tricky is when there's like, you know, a lot of claims or stuff like that. Cause
00:58:35then they come back with, like, I'll hear people say like, isn't it easier at Mountaineer? Cause
00:58:40they have the, you know, the same silks every time I go, that's worse. Like I said, Peter Barry,
00:58:45that, that seems so hard. I bet you'd probably tell you the same thing. Cause you do associate
00:58:49them, you know, and then the next time there's something different and the next time there's
00:58:52something different, it could, it could be confusing. But, um, no, I mean, there's a lot
00:58:56of prep work in that sense. You know, you usually have a few minutes to kind of chill out and
00:59:00between races and, you know, check social media or, or just, you know, eat lunch or something
00:59:04like that. My, my ex, uh, in Portland was a resident surgeon. And she, you know, so she
00:59:09worked like 14 hours a day. She came out to the races one day and we've, we do the race and she's
00:59:14like, wow, that's so cool. And she's like, what do you do? I was like, yeah, we go talk to the
00:59:16Equibase guy for 20 minutes and then we do it again. And she, she told me, she goes, you,
00:59:20you can never complain about being tired again. Right? Right.
00:59:24And Jason, I'm sorry, just one more follow-up. So, so Jason, when we name horses,
00:59:29trainers always beg us to have it be one more shorter, the better, and something that's easy
00:59:34to spell. Is there something like that for you? Like, do you look at the program and go,
00:59:38oh, really Chattanooga choo-choo against what the hell is that? Like, do you look at the long
00:59:42names and just go, or are there certain names that you really like? The funny thing is I actually was
00:59:48talking about this the other day. It's funny. You asked that, um, the ones that are like Susie
00:59:52sells seashells by the seashore. Like those aren't as bad as when your tongue has to kind of
00:59:56go from a, uh, a foot to, uh, something in the back. Like when you have, when you have to make,
01:00:02like, cause then you're having to do that fast. It's not a brain thing. It's a mouth thing.
01:00:06And, um, you know, I, I think the brain thing, at least, you know, knock on wood
01:00:10as a younger person right now, I'm still, I'm good in that sense. Um, but it's, it's the,
01:00:15it's the mouth stuff that, that at least where I've had trip ups before. So those, those worry
01:00:19me more. Um, but a quick story that I, when I was out of training the other day, there was a
01:00:24trainer who was trying to remember what his horse's name was to give to the clocker. And he was going
01:00:29through it. He's like, God, what is it? It's me. You know? And then he looks at me and he goes,
01:00:33we just call him Skippy, you know, and you realize like, you know, and like that's why
01:00:40trainers want the short name. Cause they don't want to remember Susie sells. She's, you know,
01:00:43and so, uh, yeah, I mean, I think it's funny cause there's some races. There was one at
01:00:49either the day quid pro quo Joe blow, right? Right. Like that, you know, like poor Frankie,
01:00:55I would have just said the seven ball. All right. Last question for me. I want to pivot back to the
01:01:01podcast theme for a second because I think there's a reason that your podcast has become so successful.
01:01:08You know, I think there's a reason that ours has become moderately successful and I think it's
01:01:11part of it is that we're kind of easygoing. I think you do a good job of having more of a
01:01:17conversation than a typical interview. You get good stuff out of people. You don't take
01:01:21yourself too seriously, which I think is a big part of it as well. You know, I think that podcasts
01:01:26have replaced traditional media in a lot of ways, but especially in racing, it seemed very pronounced
01:01:30like you were saying before, what do you think are some of the things that you do well? And what
01:01:34do you think are some of the things that racing media in general could do better to kind of
01:01:39emulate that success of the podcast sphere? I, I'm very much from the Howard Stern school of
01:01:45broadcasting and not in the sense of, you know, girls, but in the sense of, you know, really just
01:01:53putting your life out there and being honest with people. Cause the, it's funny, cause you know,
01:01:57we'll have, you know, good guests that we'll have Chad Brown on. We had him on once or Steve
01:02:00Asbestos or all these. And, you know, I might get an email or two of like, Hey, really enjoyed
01:02:04hearing Chad on the show. But if, if, if I talk about something that happened in my life,
01:02:09or if I talk to somebody who, you know, maybe it's just an everyday horse player,
01:02:13but had a real interesting story, like that's where I get the most feedback and response on.
01:02:18And, you know, our, our, our most downloaded episodes every week. Now we just went from
01:02:23daily to four days a week this year, just the schedule with the announcing just kind of was
01:02:27getting to be a bit much. And, and Twin Spires was awesome about making that concession for me, but
01:02:33you know, horse player Thursday was our, we'd always have a horse player on, or I would talk,
01:02:37you know, betting strategy or theory or stuff like that. Cause I'm not a great better, but
01:02:41I have access and friends who are professionals and incredible at it. And so I, you know, I
01:02:45pick their brains or we'll have them on or, or whatever, but you know, that that's, that's who
01:02:50our customer is. And so that's usually what they want to hear. Is it cool to hear from big name
01:02:54trainers? Yeah, it is, but they seem to be the most interest invested in just wanting to become
01:02:58better horse players. And, you know, I, I, I think sometimes racing media misses that a little bit.
01:03:03We focus a little too much on the sport or the human connections, which there's nothing wrong
01:03:08with that. And there's a part for that. But I think that if we had really good dialogue,
01:03:11I think poker does that well. Um, uh, you know, you watch the world series poker. It used to be,
01:03:17you know, Norman, Chad and Lon McCarron, and they were great and everybody loves them, but,
01:03:20you know, they weren't like seriously talking about the percentages or this or that. Like,
01:03:24I would love to see a racing broadcast where they talk, you know, put up a pick five ticket and talk
01:03:29about gaining equity and how this leg, you know, this is what, and it's more about, Oh, I think
01:03:34this one can win. I think this one can win. And so I would love to see a little more of the deeper
01:03:39horse player conversations, uh, in media. And I think that's something we try to do. And that's
01:03:44been a successful thing for us because there's not a ton of it out there. There's a lot of
01:03:48handicapping. Jason, I will recording this on Wednesday, the third race today at Tampa.
01:03:56I already know who you're going to ask about. I already know who you're going to ask me.
01:03:58Let me spell it. T-U-T-A-N-K-H-A-M-U-N-A-T-C-H-A. What the heck are you going to call this horse?
01:04:09And are you worried he's going to trip you up? Now he was in the second race I ever called at
01:04:13Tampa. He ran, if you look back, I think it's his second start. He ran during our summer meet.
01:04:18Um, but I, uh, I was a good studier of Egyptian history, so I know about King Tutankhamen.
01:04:23And so I know that it's Tutankhamen at you. Let me say one thing about that. One of the
01:04:35really cool things about this job is getting to learn based off the names.
01:04:40Cause you know, like forvo.com becomes my daily Bible. I go there three times a day
01:04:44because it's a pronunciation website for all sorts of different languages. But you also,
01:04:49you know, you Google things and you get to learn little bits of history. We had a horse
01:04:52recently, uh, named Tomand Park. It was T-H-O-M-O-N-D. So I wasn't sure if it was
01:04:56Thamand or Tomand or, but it was Tomand. And it, it was, uh, an Irish footballer stadium,
01:05:02uh, or rugby stadium or something like that. And so like, you just get to learn
01:05:05little bits about the world and language. And I really liked that part of the job. And, uh,
01:05:09you know, and it is fun when you, you know, you have a bit of a scary name like that
01:05:13in terms of pronunciation and getting it right. You know, you take pride in that.
01:05:17Listen, Jason, doing a great job. We really appreciate you coming on and talking to us.
01:05:21The Jason beam podcast on twin spires and tune into Tampa Bay Downsing and listen to Jason in
01:05:25the booth. Jason beam. Thanks so much for coming on, man. Oh, it's a pleasure guys. Thank you.
01:05:29Great to talk to you. Well done. The green group guest of the week is sponsored by the green group,
01:05:34an accounting tax consulting and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry. As
01:05:39this week's green group guest of the week, Jason beam will receive a free one hour tax consultation.
01:05:44Learn more at greenco.com. We'll be right back after this message from the green group.
01:05:49Why do the most successful owners breeders and horsemen select the green group as their tax
01:05:53advisor. We simply save them money and know how to make them more successful over the past 40
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01:06:52The TDN writers room is brought to you by West Point thoroughbreds. Joining a West Point
01:06:55thoroughbreds partnership involves you into the world of instant camaraderie among people
01:06:59surrounding high class horses and stakes action for a fraction of the cost. We try to do it on
01:07:04your own. You can learn more at westpointtb.com. A few West Point runners put in big works this
01:07:09week, including giant game. We remember it was third and last year's breeders cup juvenile
01:07:13went five furlongs in 58, 59.85 at Gulfstream on Tuesday. Also at Gulfstream Tuesday, last year's
01:07:20grade three Dwyer winner, first captain TDN rising star. We all liked him a lot last year,
01:07:24put in his first breeze of the year, Rashid McGahee going three furlongs in 37.88.
01:07:29West Point could be poised for one of their most successful years yet in 2022 with these guys
01:07:34and more, including of course, their superstar flight line. Flight line is so good. We,
01:07:39I, we could, I feel like we adjusted by having another flight line segment this week. That's
01:07:42how good he is. But I think we'll wait until he's, he's closer to a race. We're really excited
01:07:47about seeing him and best of luck with those other horses as well in 2022 for West Point.
01:07:52One more story we wanted to touch on this, this broke a couple of weeks ago.
01:07:56The, the California veterinary medicine board was moved to suspend Jeff Blee,
01:08:02who's the equine medical director for the California horse racing board.
01:08:07They issued an interim suspension suspension of his veterinary license and basically wanted him
01:08:12to recuse himself from the investigation into Medina Spirit's death and that necropsy,
01:08:17which is being done at UC Davis. According to the California veterinary medicine board,
01:08:22and that necropsy, which is being done at UC Davis, according to the veterinary board,
01:08:27Blee quote presents a danger to public health, safety, and welfare.
01:08:32There is, they said there exists a clear conflict of interest with his continued involvement in the
01:08:37drug testing program and investigations. The broader reasons the board gives for justifying
01:08:41the action includes Blee allegedly administering quote dangerous drugs to race to race horses
01:08:47without a prior examination, without forming a diagnosis, the diagnosis, and without medical
01:08:52necessity. Now, if you're interested in the story, you want to learn more about it. Go read
01:08:56Dan Ross's story on the TDN. It's it's called Blee suspension, medical, medical necessity or
01:09:03political theater. He talks to eight different, very respected veterinarians and practitioners
01:09:08in the business about what this means and why this is happening and what the potential fallout
01:09:13could be. Nobody covers California racing better than Dan Ross. And it's because of stuff like
01:09:18this. I like, honestly, this story confused me a little bit. It's a little bit in the weeds.
01:09:23My general sense from reading Dan's story and reading some of the quotes and some of the
01:09:28responses to it is that this is kind of like a political witch hunt. This is a little bit of a
01:09:32hit job on him because he is a guy who is very respected in the industry. And it's very vague
01:09:40kind of the accusations they were making about him. They listed a ton of drugs that he supposedly was
01:09:46treating horses with, most of which are just legal, regular therapeutic medications. There's
01:09:52like thyroxine was in there, too, but it's a little unclear if and when he treated any horse
01:09:57with that ever. I don't know enough about it to have a strong opinion, but it seems to me like
01:10:03the kind of thing where they're trying to score political points. And there are some like animal
01:10:07welfare advocates on the veterinary medicine board in terms of him overseeing the Medina Spirit
01:10:13investigation. First of all, he's not going to be taking the samples himself and testing them
01:10:18himself. He's just in charge of that program at UC Davis. And he didn't train Medina Spirit.
01:10:24He wasn't a vet for Bob Baffert. You know, just to say like, well, Bob Baffert treated some of his
01:10:30horses with some of these medications that Jeff police supposedly was treating other horses with
01:10:35seems like a real reach to say that he has a conflict of interest in this scenario. But I
01:10:40guess I'm not I'm not super versed in the story. So I'll let Bill and John take it.
01:10:44Well, I'm not really either. Joe, super well versed in it. But, you know, reading Dan's story
01:10:49and reading what some other people have written about this people. I don't know Dr. Bley. I've
01:10:54never talked to him. But people that do know him say he's got a great reputation, very honest guy,
01:11:00straight shooter, and that this is is politically motivated and somewhat of a witch hunt.
01:11:06One thing that Dan did right in his story was that, you know, yes, he gave these drugs. And
01:11:11again, that we're not talking about, you know, Jason service, Jorge Navarro drugs.
01:11:15We're talking about things like ACE, Promazine and Butte that he gave to these horses. And they
01:11:20said, if anything, Bley was guilty of poor record keeping. So, again, you know, this is this is
01:11:27where Dan Ross would be the expert on this. But he seems to have come to the same conclusion that
01:11:32other people have. This guy really didn't do anything wrong. But, you know, I think this
01:11:35shows how hypercharged the whole Medina spirit situation is. Now, they're going to have a
01:11:40different vet from the University of California, Davis oversee this. He did. The California
01:11:47Veterinary Board suspended, gave him an interim suspension. Now, apparently, you don't need to
01:11:51have of his license to be the head of the equine director of the California Horse Racing Board,
01:11:55according to Dan and others. You don't need to be a licensed veterinarian.
01:11:58So he could go forward, but I guess just because it would they don't want us to get any
01:12:04messier. He has stepped aside from the examination of Medina spirit, which based on the way things
01:12:10happen in horse racing, we'll get answers on in twenty twenty eight. Yeah, I think it's just
01:12:15absolutely hysterical and comical that this is the line of the sand that California decided to draw
01:12:21when it comes to conflict of interest. You know, you look at all the owners that are on the board
01:12:26and all the people that are associated with Bob effort in California making decisions on his
01:12:31behalf or, you know, or, you know, for the betterment of racing. And this is where they
01:12:36decide they're going to draw the line as far as conflict of interest go based on a veterinarian
01:12:42who has a stellar reputation because he was basically just doing his job. I mean, it's
01:12:49comical that that's that that's where they decided to do it. But he doesn't make maybe
01:12:52it's the beginning of a new trend in California where they're they are going to be more sensitive
01:12:57about legitimate conflicts of interest as things come up down the road. And with regard to,
01:13:04you know, to the veterinarian, whether it's Dr. Belia or whomever, you know, the standard
01:13:12protocol for veterinarians on the backside is that when they go to a barn, the trainer has a
01:13:18list of horses and what procedures the trainer feels like should be done. What medications the
01:13:24trainer feels like that the horse should be involved with. And that's that's the protocol.
01:13:30And then the vet is supposed to take the list, go over the horse and come up with their own
01:13:37independent decision as to whether or not that is the protocol and medications that should be
01:13:43endorsed. A lot of them don't. A lot of them don't because of time and because of sloppiness
01:13:48and maybe even because they're taking a snapshot of where the horse is at that one moment versus
01:13:54the trainer who's around the horse, watching him train, watching him cool out, watching him walk
01:14:00up and down the shed row. And, you know, it's kind of a means to an end as far as what the
01:14:05veterinarian's protocol is going to be on a daily basis. So, you know, yes, is it is a little bit
01:14:11sloppy? Yeah, it is. I mean, realistically, the veterinarian should be doing their own
01:14:16investigative work and come up with their own decision making. But that's not really reality.
01:14:22And to call this guy out on it when the majority of veterinarians on the
01:14:27backstretch are following the same protocols is really kind of asinine, in my opinion.
01:14:34Yeah, I mean, that's the whole thing is like they're trying to make this case from what I
01:14:37could tell that, you know, he was doing these kind of unauthorized treatments on these horses
01:14:42because like the owner didn't know about it or that, you know, he didn't keep perfect records.
01:14:47That's not how it works. Like I'm not a veterinarian. I'm not on the backstretch,
01:14:50but even I know that the trainer and the vet get together and talk about what the horse needs and
01:14:56what the horse should be treated with. So it's not one of these situations. It's not like it's
01:14:59like someone said in the story. It's not like you own your dog. You take your dog to the vet.
01:15:04You're the owner. You have to sign off on every single thing that gets done to that dog.
01:15:09The trainer is in effect in terms of treatment more like the owner than the actual owner.
01:15:15And we're actually getting some breaking news here from Sue in our chat that Jeff was traced
01:15:21was placed on administrative leave by UC Davis. So maybe there's more to this story.
01:15:27LA Times is reporting that. But it seems like much ado about nothing, at least to this point.
01:15:33And I just I wanted to quote Catherine Papp, who's a good follow on Twitter. She's an East
01:15:38Coast based veterinarian. She's she's a critic of the overuse of medication and horse racing.
01:15:42So she has she has some bona fides on this. She says that if she were practicing in California,
01:15:48she would be fearful of having the second and triple guess every diagnosis I made or procedure
01:15:53I performed. She adds that if our livelihoods and very right to work are going to be threatened
01:15:57and or punished unfairly, then I could not understand why anyone would want to continue
01:16:01being an equine practitioner in California at all. Obviously, if there's more, if there's
01:16:08more behind this, we'll figure we'll find it out in the next week and maybe we'll be wrong.
01:16:12But just from what we know so far, it just seems like something that's made to from the veterinary
01:16:18board made to look like they're doing something about corruption and about the danger to race
01:16:23horses because Medina Spirit was such a high profile death that they want to get involved.
01:16:28And I don't know what their expertise or what their interests are in relation to racing. Like
01:16:32I said, there are a couple of animal welfare advocates on that board. But but so far,
01:16:37based on what we know and based on the reaction from the legitimate experts in the industry,
01:16:42it seems like this is a little bit far fetched to suggest that he's like he's this he's this
01:16:48monster who's been drugging all these horses for all these years. I mean, it just it doesn't seem
01:16:53like the facts, but I guess I guess we'll learn more. The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by
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