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00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:28Good afternoon, it's November 22nd, it's 1255 in the afternoon, I'm Bill Finley and this
00:33is this week's edition of the TDN Writer's Room brought to you by Keeneland, joined by
00:37Zoe Cadman and Randy Moss.
00:38Well, the big story last week, and it was a bombshell, an appeals court out of the Southern
00:44District, not the Southern District, out of Texas, actually, no, actually it was New Orleans,
00:49wasn't it?
00:50But anyways, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that HISA was unconstitutional, and
00:55this is why they said it was, because it delegates unsupervised government power to
01:00a private entity, which is a violation of the private non-delegation doctrine.
01:05With putting that into plain language, what it means is that there was not enough authority
01:09given to the Federal Trade Commission, and that basically HISA, which is a non-governmental
01:14agency, was in charge.
01:17Where does that leave us?
01:18That's anyone's guess.
01:19It's chaos right now.
01:20Randy Moss, what are we making of things right now?
01:24Anyone who has followed the sport of thoroughbred racing closely over the last three or four
01:28decades, quite frankly, is not surprised at all that it has turned into a complete and
01:35utter mess and complete and utter chaos, because that's what the sport does to itself.
01:40It shoots itself in the foot at every opportunity available.
01:45We've seen it over and over and over again, especially when it comes to areas that can
01:50be politicized, like HISA has turned out to be.
01:54Now we're in a situation where, as you pointed out, the unconstitutionality centers around
02:03the FTC not having enough oversight, so horseman's groups like the National HBPA didn't like
02:10it because of what they believe are the adverse effects on the sport, and the way to correct
02:17that in HISA, apparently, is to give the Federal Trade Commission more oversight in
02:22making rules instead of people that actually know something about the sport.
02:28So this whole thing has just become a tornado of unintended consequences.
02:34I don't know what's going to happen.
02:35We're going to hear from Ed Martin a little bit later from the ARCI.
02:40I'm not sure he knows exactly what's going to happen, but one thing we do know for sure
02:45is that right now it is a complete mess.
02:48Absolute cluster, basically.
02:50And basically, horse racing is between a rock and a hard place, I think.
02:54Do you allow the FTC to completely take over, or can you please yourself?
02:59And we've proven time and time again that horse racing apparently cannot and do need some
03:04oversight, but I just don't know how they're going to fix it.
03:08I mean, it's a shame.
03:09It's a damn shame for a lot of the people that wanted HISA to go through, because the
03:15majority of states did push HISA through, and then there was some pushback.
03:20And I honestly don't think that a lot of the states that had the pushback going forward
03:24for them actually even thought it was going to come to fruition.
03:28They basically won and weren't expecting it.
03:32So it is just an absolute mess.
03:35Hopefully, Ed can bring some light to it a little bit later.
03:39So here are what the next possible steps are for HISA.
03:42There's basically three.
03:43Now, remember, they lost a court case from the Fifth Circuit, but it was only before
03:48a panel of three judges.
03:50They can go back to the court and ask for what's in the end bank hearing, which means
03:54it would then be, the hearing, the trial would start all over again and would be before the
04:00full court of the Fifth Circuit.
04:02That's number one.
04:03Number two, they can try to take the case to the Supreme Court of the United States
04:07and try to win at that level.
04:09Number three is they could go back to Congress and say, we've got some problems here.
04:13We have to rewrite the legislation so that the FTC does have more power and we will correct
04:20the wrongs that the judge in the Fifth Circuit said were things that made this unconstitutional.
04:26And I don't think they can win.
04:28And again, you know, I'm not a lawyer, though, sometimes, unfortunately, covering the sport
04:31you need to be now.
04:32So we talk more about this kind of stuff than we do who's going to win the Kentucky Derby.
04:37It sounds like and it gets very frustrating, but I don't think they can win on any of those
04:41three avenues.
04:42And here's why.
04:44First of all, it was an unanimous ruling by the three person panel.
04:48If they agree to this end bank hearing, what are the chances are that the full court will
04:52override what the three person panel already decided?
04:56That's number one.
04:57Number two, if they want to try to take it to the Supreme Court, what are the chances
05:01that the Supreme Court accepts the case?
05:03And if they do look at the kind of Supreme Court that we have right now, it's very conservative.
05:08It believes in states rights.
05:09It believes in small government and lack of government oversight into various things.
05:16I don't think if the Supreme Court takes it, they would ever win at the Supreme Court level.
05:21Then maybe the best option is then to go back to Congress.
05:24Mitch McConnell, the House minority leader, not the House, but the Senate minority leader,
05:28who was instrumental in getting this passed in the first place, still has a lot of clout.
05:32He could come in and do something.
05:34But we're going to go into a congressional year, two years, there's going to be absolute
05:40chaos.
05:41I mean, they're going to be a lot more worried about Hunter Biden's laptop than they are
05:44about horse racing.
05:46So what are the chances that they actually tackle this and get it settled?
05:50So Randy, you know, I hope I'm wrong because I am a Heise fan, but at the end of the day,
05:56I think Heise is going to go away.
05:58I think Heise might be on life support right now.
06:01I totally agree with everything you said.
06:02And it's unfortunate.
06:03You know, there are one of the issues, I think, is that there are always in horse racing seem
06:08to be conflicting priorities when you get to something like this.
06:12The national HBPA seems to be focused more on uniform state to state medication regulations
06:20and LASIX, whether or not LASIX is permitted or not, and at what levels it's permitted
06:26or not.
06:27That seems to be a lot of the issue for the HBPA as well as funding, right?
06:33Some of the prominent owners and trainers and breeders that signed on to Heise are more
06:38concerned, I think, about a level playing field in the sport.
06:43And I think that's what most horse players are concerned about, the people that actually
06:47pay the bills.
06:48I think we're concerned not so much about the 21 picograms of whatever it was, I forget
06:55now that was in Medina Spirit when he won the Kentucky Derby.
06:59We're more concerned about the Jorge Navarro, Jason Service type situations where the testing
07:07that has been given to racehorses now for decades is not catching what most people believe
07:13to be the true cheaters that are using substances that are evading the normal testing procedures.
07:21The way Navarro and Jason Service, whose case is yet to be adjudicated, were busted
07:27is through investigations that were funded by the Jockey Club, okay?
07:31That's the way forward.
07:33That's what Heise was going to have included in its framework, but it's not cheap.
07:39Investigators don't work for free.
07:41Investigators cost a lot of money.
07:43So who pays for it?
07:45That seems to be, in my opinion, the primary issue right now.
07:48Do you ask horse players to pay for it?
07:51The parimutuel tax is already so high on horse players that many of them are either getting
07:56out of betting completely or they're switching their betting to offshore where they can get
08:01rebates, okay?
08:02You can't really tax the horse players more.
08:05So the owners and trainers are left, and yet the owners complain that it's already a money-losing
08:09situation to own racehorses.
08:11Now you're adding more of an onus on us, more of a financial burden.
08:16So who pays for it?
08:18It's a big mess, conflicting priorities.
08:21Hopefully it'll get solved, but I'm certainly not optimistic at this point.
08:26It feels like we take five steps forward and seven steps back every time we go through
08:32this.
08:33So I don't have the answers.
08:36I wish I did.
08:37I mean, federal funding and federal oversight would be great, but right now we're just all
08:41kicking each other in the shins.
08:44Yeah, we certainly are.
08:45But here's one of my problems with this.
08:47At the end of the day, if I'm right and that HISA is going to be, the plug is going to
08:52be pulled on it, the National HPPA and the others that were the plaintiffs in this lawsuit
08:58will take a victory lap.
08:59They won.
09:00But here's my problem.
09:02To win means you're okay with the status quo.
09:07And I don't see how anybody can be okay with the status quo.
09:10And never have I heard from National HPPA or any of these other groups, okay, we don't
09:16like HISA.
09:17We'd like this instead.
09:18They just say, we don't like HISA.
09:20But what would you do?
09:21The status quo is where we got ourselves to in 2022, where Navarro is in jail.
09:29Service is likely going to jail.
09:30And there's still hundreds of guys out there that are running horses every day that are
09:34cheating.
09:35We know that.
09:36Can't name names, but we all know who they are for the most part.
09:40And this sport has a huge integrity problem and it's crippling to the sport.
09:46HISA was not perfect, but it was, as Randy said, they were going to go into more of the
09:51investigative areas of trying to catch people.
09:54They're going to hire Five Stones Intelligence, which played a major role in bringing down
09:58service in Navarro.
09:59They were going to make the game cleaner and safer and more on the level.
10:06If HISA goes away, we're right back to the status quo.
10:09And again, if Eric Hamilback or anybody else from the anti-HISA group wants to come on
10:14the show and explain to say, Bill, you're wrong.
10:17This is what we want to do.
10:18We don't like the status quo either.
10:20This is what we want going forward.
10:21I'd be glad to put them on the show.
10:23But to me, to be against HISA is to be for the status quo.
10:27And I don't see how anybody can be for that kind of mess we're in in the sport right now.
10:32The Kilo November Horses of Racing Age sale was held last Thursday after a successful
10:36breeding stock sale and was highlighted by a one million dollar juvenile coat by InterMischief
10:42out of Gaudet.
10:44A total of 161 horses were sold for an average of $68,000.
10:50We also look forward to the 2023 Keeneland January Horses of Racing Age sale, which begins
10:56on Monday, January the 9th.
10:58Bring your coats, guys.
10:59It'll be very, very chilly indeed.
11:02We'll be right back after these messages from Keeneland.
11:07If this place could talk, it would roar.
11:14It would say, this is racing.
11:18This beating heart in the heart of horse country.
11:23Steady and strong beneath the roar.
11:26Reminding us why.
11:28For the love of the horse.
11:31For generations to come.
11:34Spicetown.
11:38Bunnings.
11:42Echotown.
11:45It's Echotown for Joe Palomo.
11:48And Echotown breaks the wave.
11:50And Echotown is drawing away in the stretch.
11:53Echotown wins the Alan Turkin Stakes.
11:56A sire line so prolific, it repeats itself.
12:00Echotown.
12:05The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Coolmore.
12:09Justify now has six first crop two-year-old stakes winners.
12:13He will stand for $100,000 in 2023.
12:16And guys, I'm not sure if you caught the Desi Arnaz stakes from Delmar last weekend.
12:21Let's talk about Justique's last to first win.
12:24That was an extraordinarily brilliant effort for her.
12:29She's also a half-sister to Motown, who stands at Coolmore as well.
12:34Bill, Randy, Justique.
12:37What an interesting horse this is.
12:40She broke her maiden and was so ultra impressive.
12:43I declared afterwards she was going to win not only the chandelier stakes,
12:46she was going to win the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies.
12:48What does she do?
12:50She runs kind of a flat race in the chandelier.
12:52I give up on her in the Desi Arnaz.
12:54And every time she zigs, I zag.
12:57And she not only won the race, she won it again with this just eye-catching,
13:02explosive move that she has.
13:04She's so far behind and then she just runs by horses like they're standing still
13:09and gets to the finish line first.
13:11And look, I'm not going to say she's the next Zen Yacht.
13:14I'm not going to go anywhere near there.
13:16But trained by John Sheriffs, she's got that same kind of running style
13:20where she looks hopelessly out of it and then in the blink of an eye,
13:23she goes from last to third and then to first.
13:26So, Randy, I know in her first two starts, she didn't run particularly fast.
13:32Where does she stand up on the buyer scale right now?
13:35In the Desi Arnaz, she got an 81 buyer speed figure,
13:38which is not going to blow anybody's socks off.
13:40But in the realm of the current crop of two-year-old fillies,
13:44which looks a little subpar, I think that 81 would put her right in the hunt
13:48to win a graded stakes race, maybe even a grade one stakes race in her next start.
13:53She's an exciting horse to follow.
13:55What's interesting to me about her is that when she broke her maiden July 31st,
13:59she broke slowly from the gate, dropped way, way, way back,
14:02circled the field with this massive move.
14:05The reason is why you liked her so much.
14:07And I think everyone thought, wow, if she doesn't break slowly from the gate,
14:10how good could this filly be?
14:12Well, as it turns out, that's her running style.
14:15In her next start, the chandelier had gotten sick
14:18in between her career debut and the chandelier.
14:21Sheriffs said she'd missed about a week of training time.
14:24She was running on a Santa Anita surface that was uncommonly deep for Santa Anita.
14:29So in hindsight, sheriffs believes that it was a perfect storm of factors
14:34that led to sort of a dull effort in the chandelier.
14:37The fact that she missed training time,
14:39the fact that she was going from a maiden race to a graded stakes in the chandelier,
14:44the fact that she was going from a 5.5 furlong sprint to a mile and a 16th,
14:49and then the deeper racetrack, maybe she wasn't quite fit enough.
14:51So anyway, she didn't run as well.
14:53Now we see her again drop way, way back.
14:56That's just going to be her style, apparently.
14:58She's going to be like a Zenyatta.
15:00And so it's going to be interesting to see how she does going forward.
15:03The thing that Zenyatta had in her favor, she had that running style, right?
15:06But she was also running almost exclusively on synthetic racing surfaces
15:11that were kinder to that running style than a conventional dirt surface.
15:15Justique, if she sticks with this running style, is not going to have that same advantage, Zoe.
15:21No, she's not.
15:23But she's also not going to get any dirt in her face because she's just so far back.
15:27Victor is adamant, Victor Espinoza, her jockey, that she will be better around two turns.
15:33She was a little flat in her two-turn debut in the chandelier stakes
15:37and for all the excuses that you already mentioned.
15:40I think she's just going to get better the further she goes.
15:43A lot of people may say, oh, maybe she's just a one-turn come-from-behind sprinter now.
15:48But I don't think so.
15:49We've seen time and time again from horses trained by sheriffs that he likes to race them into action.
15:55If they have the ability to be brilliant, it's purely on their own merit.
15:59And I think she does have a touch of brilliance to her.
16:03And we're just going to see her get better.
16:06If you watch her in the mornings, she's horrible to watch.
16:09Like, Amy works her, the reins are flopping, she just go-ups along.
16:14And she could look like a $20,000 claimer galloping down the lane when she works in 102.
16:20But she puts it all together in the afternoon.
16:22And the thing that makes Victor a Hall of Fame rider is that he knows what he has underneath him.
16:28He's not going to rush her.
16:30She's going to let her get her feet underneath her and do what she does best, which is finish her races.
16:36So I think the future is bright for her.
16:38And I'm really excited to see her.
16:40She is a cool filly to watch.
16:42Yeah, an exciting filly.
16:43And it will be interesting to see how she does going forward.
16:46Now, the Santa Anita Riding Colony, you talked about Victor Espinosa.
16:49Frankly, up until a couple of weeks ago, it was pretty weak.
16:53I don't think it's stacked up, Zoe, to what we have in New York,
16:56or maybe not even what they have in Kentucky.
16:58But look what's happened.
16:59You have John Velasquez has come out to join them.
17:01Flavian Pratt is back.
17:03Now, the big name, and we didn't get a chance to talk about this before,
17:06Frankie DeTore is going to come in from England.
17:09Starting on December 26th, opening day at the Santa Anita meet,
17:12he's going to ride that full meet.
17:14And boy, is that going to spice things up.
17:17He's also said that if he can pick up a decent Kentucky Derby mount,
17:21he might just stick around through the Kentucky Derby.
17:23So he wouldn't be going back to England until they were, you know,
17:27a couple of weeks or maybe even a month or so into the racing season.
17:30But one question I have about that is that if he wants to pick up a Derby mount,
17:35he better be riding for Bob Baffert.
17:38And Bob Baffert has already got John Velasquez.
17:41He's already got Juan Hernandez.
17:42He already has Mike Smith.
17:44I don't know if DeTore can get into that barn or not.
17:47There's a line lined up at Baffert's office door for jockey agents trying to
17:51get in there.
17:52But he's obviously a great rider.
17:54It's going to be an interesting chapter in his career,
17:56and I can't wait to see how he does out there.
17:59It's going to be very interesting because you mentioned Derby first Saturday
18:03in May.
18:04We all know about the John Gosden bust up between DeTore,
18:09Gosden wanting Frankie to be more serious and be there in the gallops and be
18:13there in the morning.
18:14But you know what else is first Saturday in May is the 2000 guineas,
18:17the very same weekend.
18:18So Frankie has to make up his mind.
18:20Does he want to win a Derby or does he want to win the guineas?
18:23So I think this is a very interesting situation that we'll see go forward
18:27with Frankie DeTore as far as the jockey colony out here.
18:31I think it's great all these guys are coming.
18:33Perhaps they could bring us a few horses with them as well because we're going
18:36to have an awful lot of jockeys out here.
18:38Hopefully some of the trainers that are out here right now for the Del Mar meet
18:42will stick around for the ship and win at Santa Anita because it's a very
18:45lucrative program and get more horses to come here for the winter meet,
18:50which, hey, more horses, Frankie DeTore.
18:53I mean, what's better than that?
18:54We get sunshine too.
18:56There's a couple of things about the DeTore thing that interest me.
18:59First of all, he is hired as his agent, Ron Anderson,
19:03who is not only the preeminent jockeys agent in America right now,
19:08he's arguably the greatest jockey agent of all time.
19:12When you look at Ron Anderson's list of past riders and what he's done with him,
19:16it's just absolutely astounding.
19:19And so that's who's going to be booking the mounts for DeTore in California.
19:24And the second aspect of this is you have to ask yourself, why now?
19:29Why is DeTore now, for the first time,
19:32shifting his tack for the winter months to Santa Anita and to America?
19:36One reason is that it is being facilitated by First Racing,
19:41who owns Gulfstream Park and owns Santa Anita as a part of a marketing plan
19:47to increase the visibility of racing at Santa Anita in the winter with DeTore
19:52there, who's nothing if he's not camera friendly.
19:55And secondly, First Racing controls the rights to international betting
20:01on Gulfstream and Santa Anita.
20:03With Frankie DeTore riding at Santa Anita,
20:05you would think it would have to increase the amount of betting revenue
20:10that's being accumulated overseas, in the UK in particular.
20:14So there are a lot of reasons why this is happening right now,
20:17and it's going to be really interesting to see how it all pans out.
20:20It's a very good move on First Racing's part to bring Frankie.
20:23He's got nothing to lose.
20:25I think he's won 43 races lifetime in the US from 350-something mounts.
20:33His average per start in the US is 256,000 or something close to that.
20:39So he's won a lot of big races over here.
20:42And I'm looking forward to, you know,
20:45seeing how he's going to match up with the likes of Pratt and Rispoli.
20:51We basically have a very, very international Jockey Connolly
20:55here at Santa Anita.
20:57It'll be interesting because 43 wins, 40 of those coming on the turf course.
21:01We've seen time and time again that turf racing is basically
21:04superseding dirt racing, especially out here in Southern California right now.
21:10And I'm looking forward to seeing this matchup between all those guys.
21:14The Lane's End Stallion of the Week is Game Winner,
21:17whose first foals were on display at the Keeneland November sale.
21:20Game Winner had 10, sell for an average of almost $140,000,
21:25including a colt that brought $280,000.
21:29Game Winner is a son of Candy Ride.
21:31He was a champion 2-year-old.
21:32Of course, he won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile for Gary and Mary West
21:35and trainer Bob Baffert.
21:37Game Winner stands for $30,000 this year at Lane's End.
21:41We'll be right back after this message from Lane's End.
21:45As a 2-year-old, he was just phenomenal.
21:48I think that 2-year-old form is so important,
21:50especially when they can take it to that championship level.
21:53And Game Winner, he brought it to that championship level.
21:56The Rebel Stakes, he still ran the most impressive race,
21:59just getting beat in the hose by Omaha Beach.
22:02Candy Ride was a brilliant racehorse.
22:04He showed brilliance, and he throws brilliance.
22:07And Game Winner, you know, the minute he showed that brilliance,
22:10I knew right there we had something really special.
22:15The Green Group Guest of the Week is sponsored by The Green Group,
22:18an accounting and tax consulting advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred business.
22:22With over 500 clients in the racing industry,
22:25they have proven strategies to save you money.
22:28To learn more about The Green Group and those strategies,
22:30log on to www.greenco.com.
22:34And we welcome in now this week's Green Group Guest of the Week, Ed Martin.
22:37He's the president and CEO of Association of Racing Commissioners International.
22:41Obviously, the big story last week was the Court of Appeals
22:45for the Fifth District ruling that HISA is unconstitutional.
22:49It's a mess, and Ed, we brought you, and you're going to explain everything to us.
22:52And when we're all done, we're going to understand
22:54what is just an absolute unfathomable situation.
22:58But I guess from the perspective of racing commissions,
23:02the first question I have for you,
23:04come January 1, when HISA was supposed to take over all the drug testing
23:08and the enforcement of drug testing in the sport,
23:12do the racing commissions go with HISA rules?
23:14Do they go with their own rules?
23:16What are they supposed to do now that HISA is up in the air?
23:19Well, we've told everybody to talk to their lawyers,
23:22but somebody could say there's too many lawyers in this whole mix.
23:26What we've got is we've been told for almost two years now
23:31that the HISA Act was bulletproof in terms of its legality.
23:35And we found out last week that that's not true.
23:39So now we're in the great unknown,
23:43and we have a situation that HISA has been declared unconstitutional
23:47by a three-judge federal court appeals panel.
23:51Charlie Sheeler says it's not taking effect until,
23:55who's the HISA chair, says it's not taking effect until early in January.
23:59That may be true, but what we're dealing with is we have to enforce rules.
24:05Now, as of January 1, under the federal law,
24:09HISA is totally responsible for enforcing the anti-doping and the drug rules.
24:13It's totally their deal.
24:16And many states have been preparing for that.
24:20Some states are totally getting out of that space
24:24and leaving the test barn personnel, the hiring of them,
24:28the training of them, and so forth, totally to the HIWU subsidiary of HISA.
24:34But we're in a situation where we have a sport
24:38that if the HISA rules apply on January 1
24:42and somebody gets sanctioned for a drug violation
24:46or a doping violation under the HISA rule,
24:50then if HISA is ultimately declared unconstitutional
24:56and invalid, then that violation goes away.
25:00It doesn't exist. The penalty goes away.
25:04And you've redistributed purses.
25:08So this has the potential to be an enormous chaotic situation.
25:16HISA could fix this themselves
25:20by going back to the FTC
25:24and saying, we're going to put off enforcement of our drug rules.
25:28And they could put it off six months, and hopefully we'll get a final court answer.
25:34But it doesn't look like we're going to get a final determination
25:38of their constitutionality any time soon.
25:42So this is going to go into a great gray area.
25:46We saw the California Horse Racing Board has a contract with HISA
25:50to enforce their racetrack safety rules, the crop rules.
25:54And there's been a number of jockeys across the country
25:58who've been sanctioned for HISA crop rule violations.
26:02Well, if they're unconstitutional, those violations
26:06really don't exist.
26:10So expect litigation there.
26:14This is a bit of a mess.
26:18But telling us everything's OK and everything's going to be fine,
26:22that's not going to cut it. That's not going to cut it right now.
26:26Well, Ed, you sound frustrated, and understandably so.
26:30We may not have enough time to cover all this,
26:34but what's your best guess now as to what
26:38is likely to transpire in the court system?
26:42Well, there's another court case. A three-judge appellate panel was appointed
26:46yesterday. I think they've got a hearing coming up first week in
26:50December. It's anybody's guess as to how long it takes those
26:54three judges to make a determination. If they follow what
26:58the Fifth Circuit has done and declare HISA unconstitutional,
27:02then it's a real
27:06serious problem, because then the only avenue for HISA
27:10is to go to the Supreme Court, and that's always a
27:14roll of the dice. But I have to tell you, we've been told by people like
27:18Bennett Liebman from the Albany Law School, who's spoken to various
27:22conferences about the Supreme Court, has become over the years
27:26more friendly to states' rights, and this
27:30is a states' rights issue.
27:34So really what has to happen, I think if you want to get
27:38uniformity, you want to get a better program. The RCI has called for
27:42technical corrections to the statute to put it together a little
27:46better, and also in a way that's going to mitigate
27:50the enormous extra cost that looks
27:54like it's going to be imposed mostly on racetracks and horse owners and
27:58trainers.
28:02That could be the impetus to put everybody back at the table, and we think
28:06that ought to be a cooperative effort. It shouldn't just be the people who
28:10voted HISA. HISA's a reality. I think everybody's used to
28:14and supportive of the concept of having a central entity make the rules. It's just a question
28:18of how to do it, and the way they did
28:22HISA, Randy, is unlike any other federal
28:26program. If the federal government wants you to do something a certain
28:30way, what the federal government usually does is
28:34put a carrot out there for the states. In other words, if you do it according to our
28:38standards, we'll give you 20%, 30%, or whatever your cost
28:42is to do it our way. HISA didn't approach it that
28:46way. They built their whole separate organization,
28:50and perhaps that's a
28:54better way to do it and have some level of accountability
28:58and possibly
29:02the issue in the Fifth Circuit had to do with the fact that
29:06there were no checks and balances on HISA. Somebody told me
29:10this morning that if you're appointed to the HISA board,
29:14it's essentially an appointment for life. It's like being a
29:18Supreme Court judge. Another option
29:22is have the federal government do an interstate compact.
29:26Do you believe that the National HBPA would
29:30ever be supportive of a central authority making
29:34all the rules? I can't speak for them.
29:38I think where most people are
29:42at, Randy, that I hear, is
29:46everybody would like to figure a way to make all this
29:50work, including the HBPA.
29:54I'll let them speak for themselves, whether it be the horsemen or the tracks. I think some of the
29:58tracks who were supportive of HISA, who are now
30:02facing rather large regulatory bills,
30:06are scratching their heads and saying, we didn't expect that.
30:10There are tracks that, and I'm not at liberty to say, that are considering
30:14not simulcasting their signal to come out from under HISA.
30:18There are states where the tracks in that state, some of them
30:22will simulcast, some of them won't. It depends on their economic
30:26viability. This was supposed to bring uniformity to the sport.
30:30Right now, it's kind of going in the other way.
30:34It's off the rails right now.
30:38Yeah, it definitely seems like there are lots of balls in the
30:42air and people juggling them and dropping them left, right, and center. Do you
30:46know of any petitions to perhaps rewrite the rules
30:50in Congress to try and get something going?
30:54Not that I'm aware of. I had asked for the opportunity
30:58in July to speak to the HISA board, and I renewed that
31:02request on a panel I was on in Saratoga with Lisa Lazarus and Rob
31:06Williams of the New York Gaming Commission.
31:10I've never had that opportunity, but I think the HISA board, there are things
31:14that they're doing and could be doing that could help the
31:18sport if they only consider it. One of the things, let's
31:22assume HISA were to sustain itself,
31:26and let's say it were to meet the needs of the Constitution,
31:30Congress
31:34created HISA in a spending bill that was over $2 trillion,
31:38but they didn't put one penny in for horse racing. There is a
31:42supplemental appropriations bill moving in the lame duck session
31:46anticipated to come forward in the
31:50next few weeks. That's an opportunity to mitigate the cost
31:54of HISA. Now, the court ruling probably eliminates
31:58that opportunity, but I don't understand why HISA has
32:02not asked for federal money. I don't understand why we were the only people
32:06that came out and said, you need to put some federal money into this.
32:10This idea came from Congress, and
32:14Congress funded all sorts of other stuff in that bill, but not a
32:18dime for horse racing. In some cases, if you look at
32:22HISA's own documents, it's what the cost of HISA is on a
32:26per-start basis. I was talking to a Congressman
32:30from Maryland, and depending on the track his owners
32:34were entering their horses in, the per-start cost for HISA is anywhere
32:38from $313 to $450
32:42every time the horse starts, and that's all
32:46horses. So, the tracks have flexibility as to how to
32:50pass those costs along, but there's
32:54economies of scale that are
32:58... and I think that's part of the problem of locking
33:02yourself behind closed doors and not having any
33:06level of transparency, and this industry, I don't think, has really recognized
33:10the loss of transparency and accountability.
33:14The loss of accountability is what pretty much
33:18was cited in that court ruling.
33:22So, it is what it is and
33:26stay tuned. I guess the question that I have then is, how could this
33:30have been avoided? You say that everybody, even the National HBPA,
33:34is generally in favor of uniformity and a national
33:38regulating body. They just didn't like the way that this was going about. So, how could this
33:42have been avoided? So, we didn't get to the point we're at now. Well, I think the easiest
33:46thing to have done, and I don't want this to sound self-serving,
33:50but the easiest way to get to uniformity was for Congress to pass
33:54a one-line bill and say, you know, incorporate the ARCI
33:58model rules by reference, and if you want to simulcast the signal, everybody's got to operate
34:02under the same rules. I think there was a need
34:06to have a multi-state investigatory entity, and there was
34:10a need to expand the jurisdiction of the state racing commissions over the actual
34:14horse, which they did in HESA, but in our opinion, they didn't do it
34:18far enough. Those are things that could
34:22have helped the process and been a lot
34:26less costly. HESA was granted its own
34:30taxing authority, so they could have structured the program
34:34that way. They opted not to, which was totally
34:38within their right. I think a lot of people were
34:42upset when they couldn't work a deal with the U.S. Anti-Doping
34:46Agency, because I think that had been sold
34:50as part of the HESA appeal along the way.
34:54I've had very little contact with the
34:58HIWU people, but you know, you hear different things,
35:02but this is enormous.
35:06This is enormous, what that bill did,
35:10and when we analyzed it after the bill passed,
35:14we basically said, what this bill does is it burns
35:18the house down to redo the kitchen, and the kitchen
35:22needed to be redone, but you didn't need to burn the whole house down.
35:26Yeah, that's a good point. I've got one question, and this is moving
35:30forward to January 1st. You said that a lot of states basically
35:34have gotten rid of all of the people that were
35:38enforcing the rules, and I was supposed to take that over,
35:42so who is doing these menial tasks? Who is the
35:46pea catcher? Who's the guy in the test barn? Who is in charge of that now?
35:50Well, right now, those are the State Racing Commission employees.
35:54Right.
35:58My guess is after January 1st,
36:02they will continue to be State Racing Commission employees,
36:06because I think that when you really look at this,
36:10some rules are better than no rules, or the potential for
36:14no rules, and I think you may see a lot of states
36:18move forward with just continuing the existing
36:22state rules, where appeals are heard and brought
36:26forward and are sustained. It's very, very
36:30rare for a State Racing Commission to be overturned on a
36:34drug case. I mean, we have prosecutors who have never in their career
36:38lost a racing drug case.
36:42They didn't need to replicate
36:46all of that. There was better ways to put this together, but
36:50the guy running the anti-doping committee
36:54is from the NFL, and he's new to horse racing, and
36:58the NFL does not exactly have a transparent program.
37:02Try to go to their website and find out anything about their anti-doping
37:06program, how many athletes are tested, how many are positive, what they find, and so
37:10forth. You can't really find that. You can't even find the rules online.
37:14But this is
37:18a transition. I mean, you know, we've kind of thrown up our hands
37:22and tried to help them and advise them and to say, you know, our only concern
37:26is we don't want this to turn into a mess.
37:30They've done a hard job. Lisa Lazarus has been doing a really good job with the
37:34cards that she's been dealt. I mean, I really have a lot of respect for
37:38her, and they've got some good people in there.
37:42But the bottom line is
37:46this is very much in doubt as to what's going to happen here, and
37:50it's time to put all the politics in the industry aside and get everybody
37:54in a room and try to figure out how to fix this or make it
37:58work. But in the absence of that,
38:02you know, I think you're going to see a lot of states
38:06when they talk to their attorney generals and their general counsels come down to the
38:10conclusion that, you know, we don't want to be in a position where we've got an anti-doping
38:14program that has absolutely no teeth in it
38:18because it might be ruled unconstitutional.
38:22Led Martin, thanks so much for helping to clarify what is absolutely a big mess.
38:26Let's hope at the end of the day this comes out in favor of a positive resolution
38:30for the sport of horse racing. That's what we're all rooting for. Ed, thanks again.
38:34Thank you, Bill. The Green Group Guest of the Week was brought to you by
38:38The Green Group, an accounting and tax consulting advisory firm specializing
38:42in the thoroughbred industry. As this week's Green Group Guest of the Week,
38:46Ed Martin will receive a free one-hour tax consultation.
38:50For more on The Green Group and their strategies, you can go to www.greenco.com.
38:54We'll be right back after this message from The Green Group.
39:24For more information, contact us at 732-634-5100
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39:32The Green Group, proving strategies to save you taxes.
39:54Kentucky breds. Breed them. Raise them. Race them.
40:00We all win.
40:04The TD and Riders Room is brought to you by the Kentucky Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders,
40:08the KTOB. Of course, Churchill Downs is going hot and heavy right now,
40:12not only with all the stakes races over the Thanksgiving holidays,
40:16and there are plenty of those, but check out the maiden special weight races
40:20at Churchill Downs. Three of them on Thanksgiving Day alone.
40:24Full fields, 8, 12, and 10. Two of those maiden special weight races
40:28have $120,000 purses. Remember when that was an attractive stakes race?
40:34And also one for $92,000. That maiden special weight race is restricted
40:38for horses that sold or are in aid for $50,000 or less.
40:42Check out the racing at Churchill Downs this weekend.
40:46Well, Randy, you just mentioned all the big races at Churchill Downs this weekend.
40:50There's a Grade 1 on Friday. It is the Clark, and the featured event is going to be
40:54highlighted by Rich Strike. It looks like he's in a position now
40:58where he can certainly win this race. Frankly, the race came up pretty weak.
41:02He's the only Grade 1 winner in the entire field. If he runs back to his race
41:06in the Breeders' Cup Classic from the numbers, it looks like he's going to be right in the mix.
41:10Wes Willpower, he looks a little bit interesting. He won the Fayette last time out
41:14with Brad Cox. I'll jump the gun a little bit and say
41:18that if Rich Strike wins this, no, he's not the three-year-old champion
41:22that's still epicenter, though I think maybe he will get some votes if he does win this.
41:26It would be his second Grade 1 winner of the year, but he's only one for eight on the year.
41:30Derby being the only win, so it would be two for nine. That's not championship material to me.
41:34But he's kind of a fan favorite, and trainer Eric Reid
41:38found a soft spot for him for $750,000.
41:42Do you believe we're actually going to see Rich Strike as the favorite
41:46in a stakes race? That's unbelievable. Who would have thought it when he won the Kentucky Derby like that?
41:50He ran really well in the Breeders' Cup Classic.
41:54He was beating three links by Olimpio. He was beating two-and-a-half links by Teba
41:58in finishing fourth, and he might, I say might,
42:02he might not have had the greatest trip in the Breeders' Cup Classic.
42:06We don't know that because for some
42:10weird reason, and this is another case of thoroughbred racing dysfunctionality,
42:14you can get a head-on replay of a $3,500 claiming race
42:18with no problem. Good luck finding a head-on replay of the $6 million
42:22Breeders' Cup Classic, the richest horse race in America. It's not out there.
42:26According to Eric Reid, when Epicenter was injured
42:30on the backstretch of the Breeders' Cup Classic, it impeded
42:34Rich Strike. All we have to go on, since we can't see it on the pan shot,
42:38either the track feed or NBC coverage, and we don't have a head-on replay,
42:42the footnotes, the Equibase footnotes do say
42:46that Rich Strike was carried out on the backstretch by Epicenter.
42:50How far was that? Was he carried out past the middle of the track? Who knows? We don't know.
42:54But even the race that he ran in the Breeders' Cup Classic,
42:58regardless of what happened to him on the backstretch, was good enough, I think,
43:02to beat West Willpower or Folsom, both trained by Brad Cox
43:06and the Clark. So it's going to be fun to see Rich Strike run as actually the post-time
43:10favorite, which he's sure to be so. What price do you think he's going
43:14to go off at, Randy? And what price do you think West Willpower with
43:18Sires aboard is going to go off at? Because I think they're going to be a little bit closer
43:22than we might give them credit for, just because of the Brad Cox thing.
43:26Yes, I would agree. Brad Cox deservedly,
43:30his horses are bet pretty aggressively, and West Willpower comes off a
43:34strong buyer speed figure performance, an open length win in his last start.
43:38But he did get away with an incredibly
43:42soft pace in that race. Who knows?
43:46He might get away with that again. We'll have to see exactly how the
43:50pace scenario shapes up when the horses are actually entered for the Clark and see who all goes in.
43:54But yeah, I mean, he's going to be a strong
43:58second choice. Right now, I would say maybe, not looking at the size
44:02of the field, maybe 2 to 1 for Rich Strike and 3 to 1 for West
44:06Willpower. He's definitely, West Willpower, the horse that Rich Strike
44:10I think has to be the most concerned about it, or at least his connections do.
44:14Yeah, he gets the outside draw. He's actually 7 of
44:187 in here with speed to the outside of Rich Strike.
44:22I mean, basically, West Willpower is the speed of the speed
44:26in here. So it'll be interesting to see if Sunny Leon
44:30lets Rich Strike do his thing or if he sends him forward.
44:34Well, Richard Migliore, a retired rider that I have a lot of respect
44:38for, he made some news. He came out and blasted the Naira
44:42stewards after Trevor McCarthy was injured last Friday in a
44:46spill at Aqueduct. And what happened was a jockey by the name of Jalen Samuel came out on his horse,
44:50started a chain reaction. Trevor McCarthy went
44:54down. He broke his pelvis and his collarbone. And what Migliore
44:58had to say was that this is typical of what's going on at Naira, that the jockeys
45:02have become kind of just cowboys out there running all over the place, not
45:06having any regard for what paths they're in, who they cut off,
45:10whether they're impeding someone else or putting them in danger or whatnot. He blamed
45:14the stewards, saying that this happens time and time again.
45:18And Errod Ortiz is somebody that everybody brings up as the number one offender
45:22for this, and he's pretty much the number one jockey in the country, saying they don't do anything about it.
45:26The stewards just look the other way. So the riders have become used to riding
45:30recklessly. And he also blasted
45:34the stewards for giving Samuel only seven days for his
45:38actions in there. He called that absurd. He suggested
45:42that a rider, if they injure someone else, their suspension
45:46should be as long as the time the rider is out of action.
45:50It should mirror that. So if Trevor McCarthy's going to miss two months, he said Jalen
45:54Samuel should have got a two-month suspension. I really admire him for speaking
45:58up. And there's definitely something to this. I mean, New York racing right
46:02now has become like a rodeo out there. And
46:06do we need someone to get more seriously injured, even more so
46:10than Trevor McCarthy did? And at the end of the day, the stewards
46:14are supposed to be in charge. And his take is they're not in charge at all.
46:18They're just not paying any attention. And it's dangerous, Randy.
46:22You and I see it. And we can blow the trumpet all we want.
46:26I can say that Sonny Leon got 15 days for trying to elbow
46:30Tyler Gafleon out of the saddle at Churchill Downs. And I thought he should have gotten
46:34three months instead of effectively three weeks. We can talk
46:38about Irad Ortiz. We can talk about Paco Lopez all we want.
46:42But it really has teeth when someone
46:46who has been there, been in the saddle in New York,
46:50been a jockey like Richie Migliore or like my buddy Jerry Bailey or Zoe,
46:54who actually can speak with a little more
46:58authority on that situation. So Zoe, what's your take on it?
47:02It's just a little bit more lax than it used to be. And I actually spoke
47:06to Mig as well. And we're both of the opinion.
47:10Everyone is talking about Cordero and comparing him
47:14with Irad Ortiz. But if Cordero had continued to do what Irad
47:18was doing, he would be stood down for an awful long time. I can remember
47:22going into the steward's room for a minor infraction and
47:26feeling actually worried. These guys go in nowadays and it's like,
47:30well, maybe I'll get the weekend off or maybe I'll just pay a fine. I can pay my way out
47:34of it. There's not enough of
47:38enforcement into the fines that go behind it.
47:42And basically, I can understand people wanting to
47:46like Irad Ortiz. You want the best fighter in the room to fight
47:50for you. And he is the best fighter, the best jockey. He takes
47:54chances. He gets away with it. And that's why Todd Pletcher rides him. That's why
47:58everybody wants him on the horse because they know that he's going to try his best
48:02to win the race no matter what. It's just a question of
48:06what is the no matter what? There has to be a line that needs to be drawn
48:10and it needs to be drawn sooner rather than later before something
48:14awful happens. Zoe, how much of this stuff went on when you were riding?
48:18I mean, it goes on every day and it's always gone on.
48:22But I think it's all stemmed from the New York
48:26herding thing that was going on. And basically, it's come
48:30from that because in any other jurisdiction that I've ever ridden in,
48:34like mainly Chicago, herding is not allowed. I can remember
48:38losing a race, being taken out ten paths
48:42and losing by a head. Now, I didn't know at the time. I was an apprentice
48:46and I went in there like, hey, you got to call foul on that. I'm like, well, I lost. They're like, yeah, but
48:50you were in the middle of the racetrack. So I did call foul and it got overturned.
48:54Now, in New York for years, herding has been allowed.
48:58And I honestly believe that it's all stemmed from that.
49:02Oh, you get away with this? Well, let's just push a little further. Let's just push a little further.
49:06And they've pushed the envelope enough and the envelope
49:10needs to stop. There needs to be a hard wall where that envelope
49:14cannot be pushed anymore. OK, if you want to learn more about Richard
49:18McGlory had to say, why don't you look at the Tuesday's TDN
49:22where I have a story and there's some very strong words from Richard McGlory and people
49:26in horse racing don't speak up enough. So we commend him for that.
49:30The TDN Racer's Room is brought to you by XBTV. The XBTV
49:34Work of the Week is defunded. Seen going here solo in
49:38three, nine and one, he was the fastest of 32 works.
49:42His last win came in the Grade 1 Awesome again and looks like, according to
49:46Hall of Famer Bob Baffert, that he will go forward in the Grade 3 Native
49:50Diver on Sunday at Del Mar. We'll be right back after this
49:54message from XBTV.
50:08Music
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50:56The TDN Racer's Room is brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds
51:00Joining a West Point Thoroughbred partnership can vault you into a world
51:04of instant camaraderie among people surrounding high-class horses
51:08and stakes action for a fraction of the cost. Learn more
51:12at westpointtb.com. West Point as well had some
51:16pictures on their Twitter page of Prosper, the good-looking city
51:20of light cult out of Anchorage who sold for $1.7 million
51:24as a yearling. He's gearing up for his first start
51:28for familiar connections. Trained by John Sadler and owned by a
51:32partnership that includes West Point and Woodford Racing. Is this their
51:36next superstar? Is it? Is it? We shall
51:40find out. Hey, this week's Remy cartoon is in and it's a good one. It has a
51:44sign. Horses are coming on the track and it says the day after Thanksgiving and an
51:48announcer is announcing the overweights. Every horse in the race is overweight after
51:52of course feasting on turkey dinner on Thanksgiving. So
51:56anyways, that's this week's show. I want to thank you everybody for listening and everybody
52:00for watching. I want to thank Randy Moss, Zoe Cabman, Ed Martin, the Green Group Guest of the Week,
52:04our producer Patty Wolf, our associate producer Katie Petruniak,
52:08our editors Anthony LaRocca and Aaliyah LaRocca. I'm Bill Finley. We'll talk to you
52:12next week here on the TDN Writers.