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00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:29Welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room podcast, and it's a special edition.
00:00:33This is going to be our year-end, quote, holiday episode.
00:00:37As you can see with my colleagues, I'm the only one that didn't come ready for the party.
00:00:41This is boring, a blue juice jacket.
00:00:43But Randy Moss, I'm Randy Moss and Zoe Cabin.
00:00:46I'm Bill Finley, of course.
00:00:48You guys did yourselves proud.
00:00:49Nice outfits.
00:00:52Randy, I'm going to let you describe mine, just in its full glory.
00:00:58For those of you that are just listening to this, let's have it, Randy.
00:01:02Rudolph the red-nosed beaver, is that what we were talking about before?
00:01:07I'm wearing a Rudolph onesie.
00:01:10So Zoe tells me, just go get your best Christmas jumper.
00:01:14Well, my first question was, what is a jumper?
00:01:17That's something that is not part of the lingo over here on this side of the pond.
00:01:23Apparently, jumper is a sweater, of which Bill and I both own absolutely zero.
00:01:28Yes.
00:01:29So I just had to make do with the hat and whatever.
00:01:32Well, at least you got the hat, Randy.
00:01:33Yeah, it looks good.
00:01:34And they also said, come with the cocktail, Bill.
00:01:37You got one of those.
00:01:38Yeah.
00:01:39Not a cocktail.
00:01:40Cheers!
00:01:41That's a wine.
00:01:42Adult beverage.
00:01:43So Merry Christmas, everyone.
00:01:44Merry Christmas.
00:01:45Cheers.
00:01:46All right, guys.
00:01:47We'll be throwing out some questions for Zoe and Randy and myself.
00:01:49Also, we've had some viewers write in a couple of questions.
00:01:52We'll try to get to those and have our experts, especially Zoe, being the ex-jockey, try to
00:01:58explain and answer some of the questions.
00:02:00But guys, this is fun.
00:02:02We've got so much to talk about.
00:02:04And this segment one is going to begin with this question.
00:02:09What is the moment, Randy Moss, that got you hooked on horse racing?
00:02:13Interesting.
00:02:14Yeah.
00:02:15I don't know if it was an exact moment.
00:02:18I suppose you could call it a moment.
00:02:20I was born and raised in Hot Springs, Arkansas, so I never really had much of a chance.
00:02:25But when I was a kid, one of my very first memory, my very first realization that there
00:02:31was a racetrack in Hot Springs, Arkansas, is that when you drove past Oaklawn Park back
00:02:38in the day, and we're talking like late 60s now, right, mid 60s, I was a little kid sitting
00:02:44in the backseat of my parents' car, and it used to be a little like Saratoga in that
00:02:48there were stables on the opposite side of Central Avenue, which is the main drag that
00:02:55goes through Hot Springs, Arkansas.
00:02:56And so the police, the crossing guards, would stop the traffic, which back then wasn't all
00:03:01that substantial in Hot Springs on Central Avenue, as horses crossed the street, just
00:03:05like you see outside Saratoga during training and racing hours, right?
00:03:10And so I would sit there in the backseat of the car, and I would see these beautiful
00:03:14racehorses crossing the street in front of me, and the exercise riders on their backs,
00:03:19and it was like, that's one of my earliest memories, is watching that, and it just snowballed
00:03:26from there.
00:03:27I grew infatuated with it, and here we are.
00:03:29Zoe?
00:03:30Well, I just want to pose another question to Randy.
00:03:34Hot Springs, Arkansas, so growing up there as a kid, did you find your way to the racetrack
00:03:40at any point?
00:03:41Did you go and be like the proverbial hot walker?
00:03:45Did you go that route?
00:03:46No, I didn't go that route.
00:03:49I was more of the front side route.
00:03:52I grew up in a neighborhood filled with horse trainers.
00:03:55Bob Holtz was a next-door neighbor on one side, Jimmy Garut on my other side, a trainer
00:04:01named Bob Irwin who used to work for Marion Vanburg back in the day, David Vance down
00:04:05the street.
00:04:06I hung out with all their kids and stuff, and I actually started handicapping for a
00:04:09newspaper under someone else's name when I was 13 years old.
00:04:14So yeah, I've been involved, and my parents were huge racing fans.
00:04:19My dad owned a horse that was horribly slow.
00:04:22Yeah, that's kind of how I got into it.
00:04:25What about you?
00:04:26Oh, that's a hell of a street to grow up on.
00:04:29That's like an Oaklawn Hall of Fame street to grow up on.
00:04:32You had absolutely no choice, because I know exactly where that is.
00:04:38I'm going to say that I was probably privileged in the fact that I had ponies as a kid.
00:04:44Yeah, cheers.
00:04:45Cheers to that.
00:04:46What are you drinking, by the way, Randy?
00:04:47This is a very highbrow premium margarita right here.
00:04:51Very nice.
00:04:52I'll just stick with my Heineken, because it's one in the afternoon.
00:04:56All right, so I'm going to say I was privileged.
00:04:59I had ponies growing up as a kid, and I grew up in Somerset, which is the southwest part
00:05:05of England, and jump racing is prevalent.
00:05:08I honestly didn't really like watching it on the TV, because it took too long, and I
00:05:13thought it was a bit boring.
00:05:15However, during school time, we all got a chance to do work experience, and the closest
00:05:20racing yard to me was Philip Hobbs.
00:05:24Me and my friend Rosie, we both applied to go for our week out to Philip Hobbs.
00:05:30Now, I had a pony who was pretty quick and liked going fast, and I'm like, oh, I'm going
00:05:33to go to a racing yard.
00:05:35This is going to be so cool, and rode out for Philip Hobbs for a week, got run off with
00:05:39a couple times, and went really fast.
00:05:42His gallops go uphill, and they stop at a road that goes downhill.
00:05:46I went all the way down the road on one of these jumper horses, and I got hooked.
00:05:53This is really cool.
00:05:54I already had planned when I left school at 15 that I was going to go and be a working
00:05:59pupil in the three-day event yard for Clarissa Strong down in Devon, so I actually had signed
00:06:05up for that, and I went down there for a year, but the racehorse has always stuck with me.
00:06:11We had yearlings to break, and then I found my way going to Newmarket, and I just loved
00:06:17it.
00:06:18I don't remember the beginning of it, but the clincher that brought me to the States
00:06:23was getting home from the pub one Friday evening, Saturday evening.
00:06:27Yeah, I think it was.
00:06:30We'd got a kebab from the kebab shop in Newmarket.
00:06:35We go to my friend's house, Jackie, and her husband, who was traveling head lad for Gosden
00:06:40at that time, was watching something on the telly, and I'm like, what are we watching?
00:06:45We got in, we stumbled in the door, and it was the Breeders' Cup, and I'd never heard
00:06:50of it.
00:06:51I think it was 93, so it was out in Southern California.
00:06:55I just remember seeing palm trees and nice weather, and it was pissing down with rain
00:07:00in Newmarket and thinking, I want to go to America because that looks awesome.
00:07:06Don't even remember what Breeders' Cup it was, but I just remember seeing palm trees
00:07:10and thinking that was fabulous.
00:07:13The very next year, I hopped on a plane and came to the States.
00:07:17As far as my story goes, a lot of people have the same story.
00:07:21Most people that you hear about that get interested in racing, it's usually through, my dad took
00:07:26me to the track, my older brother, my uncle John took me to the track, et cetera.
00:07:31Both my father and my older brother, who was 10 years older than me, were big racing fans.
00:07:38With my brother being 10 years older than me, when I was six, he had a driver's license,
00:07:42so we went to all, there were stories about him babysitting me, where he didn't tell my
00:07:46parents what we were going to do, instead we lived in Cleveland, went to Northfield
00:07:50Park, that's where he babysit me at, the Trotters there.
00:07:53I think that what really changed everything or put me into the area where like, okay,
00:07:58this is the coolest thing in the world, I really want to do this, is Secretariat.
00:08:02Not necessarily Secretariat's 73 year, the first time I ever went to Saratoga was in
00:08:081972, my parents took me there and Secretariat won the Sanford Stakes.
00:08:14I don't believe he was even the favorite in that race, but there was so much hype about
00:08:18these great two-year-olds and all these stars, and he's a star in the making, and I saw this
00:08:24big monstrous chestnut horse win, said, oh my God, this is something ridiculously special,
00:08:30and I started following, I was following racing the whole time, but I was especially following
00:08:35Secretariat.
00:08:36I got to see him run twice as a two-year-old, as he also ran in the Garden State Stakes,
00:08:41we lived in Philadelphia at the time, so I got to see two of his two-year-old races and
00:08:45a bunch of three, but I'm sure that's a story a lot of people had.
00:08:49How many racing fans did Secretariat create?
00:08:51Well, I'm one.
00:08:52That's really cool.
00:08:53How old were you?
00:08:54God, I don't want to give away my age.
00:08:59I was 11.
00:09:0011.
00:09:01That's really cool.
00:09:0211 years old, yeah, absolutely, and I'll never forget that.
00:09:05My uncle bought one of the very first video cameras, and late in his life, my aunt told
00:09:10me that he had a whole box of cassette tapes just sitting there stored that had never been
00:09:17developed and all that from this video camera, so I went and got them all developed, and
00:09:22lo and behold, there was a picture, there was video of me at Oaklawn Park when I was
00:09:29negative one month.
00:09:31It was my parents on the apron, and my mother was very pregnant with me.
00:09:35Did she have a cigarette, and was she drinking, because that was all the rage?
00:09:40She smoked, but she did not have a cigarette at that particular time, so I can say my first
00:09:45trip to the racetrack, I was negative one month old.
00:09:48There you go.
00:09:49Very cool.
00:09:50All right, guys, let's move on.
00:09:51The favorite racing moment that you have witnessed, I'll start this one off.
00:09:56There's a couple that I could talk about, but I think mine was the Affirmed Alidar Belmont,
00:10:01you know, that was one of the greatest races in the history of the sport.
00:10:04I don't know how he can ever top that.
00:10:06It was a little bit like Sunday Silence and Easy Goer.
00:10:09Everybody was either an Affirmed fan or an Alidar fan, and for whatever reason, I became
00:10:14an Affirmed fan.
00:10:15Matter of fact, his derby was the first ever Kentucky derby I went to in 1978, also saw
00:10:21the Preakness, so I was able to see the full triple crown, but when he came into the Belmont,
00:10:26I don't know how I can use words to describe this race because it won't do it justice,
00:10:34but to see these two great horses battle every inch of the way down the stretch and to see
00:10:39my favorite horse, Affirmed, prevail, that is absolutely an indelible moment in my fanhood
00:10:48as a racing person, the Affirmed Alidar Belmont of 1978.
00:10:53Wow.
00:10:54Zoe?
00:10:55I mean, we discussed it last week or a couple of weeks ago with Zenyatta winning the Breeders'
00:11:02Cup at Santa Anita when they basically took the roof off at Santa Anita.
00:11:09That moment will stay with me forever, but if you want something more interesting, another
00:11:15one could be my second trip out to Southern California working for Michael Dickinson,
00:11:21to the Del Mar Derby.
00:11:25I'd been out six weeks prior and he'd run in the swaps and was second to Thunder Gulch
00:11:30and had a heat stroke on the way back to the barn, and that was a whole new thing for me.
00:11:35I'd never seen a heat stroke fresh off the plane.
00:11:38What is this horse doing?
00:11:39Is he rolling on the ground?
00:11:41Got that all figured out.
00:11:43Had specific instructions from Michael Dickinson, and you can appreciate this, Randy.
00:11:49When he wins the Del Mar Derby, Zoe, okay, Michael, when he wins, this was the day before,
00:11:57before you get to the winner's circle, you must pull Rene Douglas off of the horse and
00:12:02just soak, I don't care if you soak the jockey as well, just soak him in water and make sure
00:12:08he doesn't have another heat stroke.
00:12:10So he did win the Del Mar Derby and I did pull Rene Douglas off of the horse and he's
00:12:16like, what are you doing?
00:12:17Get off, get off, get off now.
00:12:19And just sprayed everybody that was there in water.
00:12:23We put him back on, a very wet jockey, and I was the groom, the hot walker, the exercise
00:12:28rider.
00:12:29I have the picture of myself in the winner's circle at Del Mar holding the horse with the
00:12:34Del Mar Derby.
00:12:35That was cool, very, very cool.
00:12:38And Rene Douglas always said he'd stake me.
00:12:40So fast forward, I was leading apprentice at Arlington Park and Rene's a leading rider
00:12:45and he looked at me one day, Dwight, we've met before, and I'm like, yeah, you never
00:12:51staked me, remember the horse?
00:12:54He tried to write me a check that day and I'm like, no, no, no, I really needed it back
00:12:58then, but I don't need it now.
00:13:02Wow.
00:13:03Mine's pretty easy.
00:13:04It was the 2015 Belmont Stakes with American Pharoah, sweeping the Triple Crown, right?
00:13:12First time in 37 years, the crowd reaction, just unbelievable.
00:13:17It was just amazing to be there and kind of a funny TV story that goes along with it.
00:13:23It was obvious leading up to the race, even though it was the Belmont Stakes, even though
00:13:27it was the Triple Crown, it failed so many times, he was going to win.
00:13:31He was going to win.
00:13:32I mean, there was really not that much competition in there against him.
00:13:35He was going to control the pace.
00:13:36And so the plan was NBC producer, Rob Highland, like the greatest sports producer in the country.
00:13:44Make sure once that horse crosses the finish line, you guys lay out and let the moment
00:13:48breathe because it's going to be unbelievable at Belmont Park when that happens.
00:13:53Tom Hammond was the host, Jerry Bailey and I were on set.
00:13:57So that's what happens, crosses the finish line, he wins.
00:14:00We lay out, we let the moment breathe.
00:14:02The roar is so deafening that Jerry and I could have been having a conversation next
00:14:07to each other and we wouldn't have been able to hear each other.
00:14:12So we let it breathe.
00:14:13We let it breathe.
00:14:14We let it breathe for what seemed like an eternity.
00:14:18And then Rob gets in our ears and says, OK, you guys can talk.
00:14:21And Tom says something, you know, and Jerry says something because he's usually first
00:14:26after a race.
00:14:27And then it was my turn.
00:14:29And I said, you know, I've been to a lot of big time sporting events in America.
00:14:34You know, I've been to the Super Bowl.
00:14:36I've been to Olympics.
00:14:38You know, I've been to some of the loudest NFL stadiums.
00:14:41I have never in my life heard a sustained roar as loud as what we just heard when American
00:14:49payroll crossed the finish line.
00:14:51Now one one thousand two one thousand.
00:14:53Tom Hammond comes in, says, you know, I've been to a lot of major sporting events in
00:14:57the country.
00:14:58I don't think I've ever heard a roar as loud as this.
00:15:04This is the crowd.
00:15:05Just unbelievable.
00:15:06I'm thinking, OK, I guess he didn't hear me.
00:15:09You know, I know it's loud, but I just actually I just said that.
00:15:13And that's kind of odd, you know.
00:15:15So then I get home and my wife said, yeah, what a race.
00:15:20How come you didn't say anything after the race?
00:15:22I said, what do you mean?
00:15:24And she said, you didn't say anything to Tom, said something.
00:15:27Jerry said something.
00:15:28Tom said something.
00:15:29Again, you didn't say anything.
00:15:32After the race was over, the crowd noise was so incredibly loud.
00:15:36It was distorting all the microphones.
00:15:38So they turned off my mic and they turned off Jerry's mic because Tom's mic was being
00:15:45incredibly distorted by the noise coming through our microphones.
00:15:49Then it was time for us to talk.
00:15:51They turned on Jerry's mic, but they neglected to turn on my mic.
00:15:58So one of the greatest moments in thoroughbred racing history, NBC was there.
00:16:02We were chronicling it.
00:16:03And I'm nowhere to be found.
00:16:05As soon as the race is over and American barrel crosses the finish, I thought that's an incredibly
00:16:10funny story.
00:16:11And they've at least from my perspective and, you know, they've apologized to me 100 times.
00:16:16I think it's funny.
00:16:17I'm not upset about it.
00:16:18I think it's funny.
00:16:20So I think all three of us enjoy playing the race as well as we like watching and talking
00:16:24about it.
00:16:25Everybody in the sport has one of those nightmarish, bad luck, tough beat stories.
00:16:32I have the opposite.
00:16:33I have the greatest good luck story in horse racing.
00:16:38Take us back to the time in 1988, the John A. Morris handicap at Saratoga, which is now
00:16:45the personal ensign stakes.
00:16:46I wasn't a big pick six better.
00:16:48I invested maybe $100 or something in the pick six on the day of the John A. Morris
00:16:55stakes.
00:16:56I get through like one, like two, like three, like four, like five, like, holy crap, I might
00:17:01win this.
00:17:03The John A. Morris that year had a four horse field.
00:17:06In my pick six, I had the three to five favorite and like the seven to five second choice.
00:17:12The other two horses were like, yeah, get them out of here.
00:17:13They're 10 to one, 12 to one, something like that.
00:17:16All of a sudden the skies open up at Saratoga and it's hell.
00:17:20The skies come down, the trees are hit by lightning, there's flooding, everything.
00:17:25Ladies and gentlemen, we have to cancel the remainder of the card.
00:17:29What we will do for the pick six is to pay off the people that have five.
00:17:33I actually got two tickets because I was live with two horses in the John A. Morris.
00:17:38So I collected, the pick six paid $4,700.
00:17:42I collected $9,400 for hitting this pick six.
00:17:46Now, you know, I'm not thinking anything at the time other than, well, that's cool.
00:17:50That's fair.
00:17:51They ran the race the next day as an exhibition race with the same four horses and I would
00:17:57have lost.
00:17:58Oh, my God.
00:17:59All right, Zoe.
00:18:00That is awesome.
00:18:01I don't have much luck betting.
00:18:12So I don't have a good luck betting.
00:18:15I have a coulda, shoulda, woulda one and I'm going to go back to the Dickinson era.
00:18:22We had a horse that had run a couple of times already.
00:18:25We were down in South Carolina.
00:18:27Michael liked to take them hunting.
00:18:30So I'd been hunting this horse.
00:18:31His name was Crowning Halo and jumping him and he didn't really like to run much.
00:18:37So this was just to freshen him up and make him a happier horse.
00:18:40So we get back to Fair Hill and this horse is working lights out.
00:18:45I'm like, this horse is going to win.
00:18:47They're like, oh no, he's a pig.
00:18:49He's useless.
00:18:50Blah, blah, blah.
00:18:51I'm like, I'm telling you, he's going to win.
00:18:52I told everyone that would listen that he's going to win.
00:18:55So I get in my little Ford Escort and drive off to the OTB on my own and I'm going to
00:19:00bet on him.
00:19:02Didn't really bet a lot, but I knew this horse was going to win.
00:19:06So I had $500, which is about three weeks wages back then.
00:19:11And I put 500 on the nose to win on this horse and they were running a Belmont Park.
00:19:17Jerry Bailey actually rode him.
00:19:19I'm like, he's going to win.
00:19:20But he was big odds.
00:19:21He was about 25 to one.
00:19:25And all of a sudden all the OTBs went down and it was pissing the brain there.
00:19:31Everything went down and they're like, we're going to run this race for purse money only,
00:19:36which I didn't have a clue what that was.
00:19:38Purse money only.
00:19:39So I still get paid, right?
00:19:41This horse parks at 25 to one and I go up to the window because I didn't understand
00:19:48what purse money only was thinking that I'd won this major, major score.
00:19:54And they're like, here you are.
00:19:55Here's your $500 back.
00:19:57I was absolutely gutted.
00:20:01So yeah, that's my story.
00:20:02I don't have any good luck stories with gambling because I'm a horrible gambler, but that would
00:20:08have changed my life at that very point.
00:20:11Oh boy.
00:20:12Yeah.
00:20:13So, all right, my turn about 35 years ago, I developed a close friendship with a great
00:20:18guy named Dave Thomas, not the Wendy's Dave Thomas, but an attorney in Little Rock, Arkansas,
00:20:23loved horse racing, loved betting on the horses.
00:20:25I was in the newspaper business at the time, but first and foremost, I was a handicapper
00:20:31and I knew everything about the horses at Oaklawn and Louisiana Downs and Remington
00:20:35Park.
00:20:36I did speed figures, pace figures, trainer profiles.
00:20:39Sometimes I was with the clockers in morning workouts.
00:20:40I paid for VHS copies of all the races so I could study and make the trip notes.
00:20:45This was before you could get any of that stuff online, right?
00:20:48So now we're at the beginning of the pick six craze.
00:20:50And my friend Dave asked me, how come you never really bet much on the pick six?
00:20:55And the answer was simple.
00:20:56I'm in Arkansas.
00:20:57I'm working for a newspaper.
00:20:58I'm making nothing.
00:21:00And I got kids.
00:21:01I can't afford to do this.
00:21:03So Dave came back to me with a plan.
00:21:05He said, look, I'll provide the funds to play the pick six and my handicapping would be
00:21:10my sweat equity in the tickets.
00:21:13So Dave was a very good handicapper himself and we'd sit down and put our heads together
00:21:17whenever a pick six carryover pool got up to six figures.
00:21:21And the first time that happened, our very first bet together was at Remington Park,
00:21:26November 29, 1989.
00:21:30We have a phone conversation.
00:21:32We put together a ticket.
00:21:33He drives up to Remington Park.
00:21:34I think I go Christmas shopping.
00:21:36Okay.
00:21:37I come back.
00:21:38This is before TVG, before internet.
00:21:39He had no way of watching the races unless you were there.
00:21:42I got like 10 messages on my answering machine.
00:21:44All right.
00:21:45First leg of the pick six, third race, $76.
00:21:491860, 940, 1160, 1020.
00:21:53And then Garrett Gomez brought in the final leg for us at 960 on a horse named Gundy Gary.
00:21:59We had the only winning ticket for more than $300,000.
00:22:03Wow.
00:22:05At Louisiana Downs, about a year and a half after that, we hit a pick six, the only winning
00:22:09ticket for more than $500,000.
00:22:14There was a really interesting story behind that, but it's a little too time consuming.
00:22:17Maybe some other time.
00:22:18Anyway, at one point together, we had the largest tickets ever cashed in the states
00:22:23of Oklahoma and Louisiana, but that was more than three decades ago.
00:22:28Wow.
00:22:29It's long since been topped, but yeah, I have some pretty nice memories of gambling stories
00:22:37back in the pick six heydays in the late eighties and early nineties.
00:22:41I'm impressed.
00:22:42Yeah, I bet you can't top that.
00:22:43All right.
00:22:44So here's another question.
00:22:45I'll start with you, Zoe.
00:22:47If you could have dinner with one person in racing history, who would it be?
00:22:51The queen mom.
00:22:52Hmm.
00:22:53Ooh.
00:22:54Yeah.
00:22:55The queen mom.
00:22:56And I would sit there and drink a gin and tonic with her and discuss all, yeah, cheers,
00:23:03all things racing with her.
00:23:05Because to me growing up, you had the queen and the queen mom, and she was just fabulous.
00:23:11She was always kind of half pickled when you saw her.
00:23:15She loved her racing.
00:23:16We know the queen loved her racing, but the queen mom was, oh, she was just amazing.
00:23:22She could tell you every pedigree and she did all the breeding.
00:23:28She was fabulous.
00:23:29So to me, that will probably be the most interesting person I could think of would be the queen
00:23:34mom, especially growing up in England and watching the Royals love of horse racing.
00:23:40Mine would be a dead heat.
00:23:41I'm sorry.
00:23:42I got to pick two.
00:23:43It would be Ben Jones.
00:23:45I'm a huge history buff in American horse racing, and he had so many of the Calumet
00:23:49horses back in the day.
00:23:50I would love to hear some of his stories about some of those great horses of yesteryear.
00:23:56And then Jimmy Winkfield, the African-American jockey around the turn of the century, because
00:24:02I don't know if you've ever heard the whole Jimmy Winkfield story.
00:24:06It's part of a book that a guy named Ed Hotaling wrote, who actually was the guy that brought
00:24:11down Jimmy the Greek, but that's another story.
00:24:14This guy, Jimmy Winkfield, has the most interesting story of any horse racing figure I've ever
00:24:21come across.
00:24:22It's unbelievable.
00:24:23I've been waiting for the movie to come out.
00:24:25It would dwarf Seabiscuit and Secretariat for sheer interest in terms of what all happened
00:24:31to this guy in the United States and in Europe and then back in the United States.
00:24:37So it would have to be a long dinner, Bill, because I'd have a tape recorder or my
00:24:43phone recording and I'd have to ask Jimmy and get it on record to go into detail about
00:24:50all these experiences and what happened to him along the way so that I could be part
00:24:55of the movie whenever it's finally made.
00:24:58But it's going to be amazing.
00:25:00So I've got one that I don't think many people would expect are going to surprise you a little
00:25:03bit.
00:25:04Mine is Oscar Barrera.
00:25:08For people who grew up in the 70s and 80s following New York racing, they remember very
00:25:14well what Barrera was able to do.
00:25:16We talk a lot on the podcast about cheating trainers.
00:25:20We look at these guys and say, okay, he claims a horse for $15,000, runs them back three
00:25:25weeks later for $17,500, improves five or six buyer numbers and gets the win.
00:25:30Oh man, that's a juice guy.
00:25:32Oscar Barrera was the king and I'm allowed to say this because he's dead, so nobody's
00:25:38going to sue me.
00:25:40He did things that have never been done before and have never been done since and whatever
00:25:46he was using just blows me away.
00:25:50He would claim a horse for $10,000 on a Saturday, run it back for $20,000 on a Wednesday and
00:25:57the horse would go off at six to five and win.
00:26:01One time he won six races with a single horse in one month.
00:26:07What I'd have to do is I'd get Oscar shit-faced, get him really drunk and say, Oscar, please
00:26:16don't take these secrets to the grave.
00:26:18I want to know your secrets.
00:26:20All these years later, I'm still fascinated by it because again, we're suspicious of trainer
00:26:25A, we're suspicious of trainer B.
00:26:28No one has ever been able to do what this guy does.
00:26:31He claims shifty chic and almost won, beat slew of gold in the Woodward or whatever race
00:26:36that was.
00:26:37And then at the end of his career, he couldn't win a race to save his life.
00:26:41But boy, he took those secrets to the grave.
00:26:44I want to exhume him and get him to tell me what the hell he was doing.
00:26:49That's awesome.
00:26:53Now I have trouble doing this when I'm not drinking.
00:26:55We'll see how I can do it right now.
00:26:58So cheers.
00:26:59The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland and what a record breaking year
00:27:05it was for Keeneland.
00:27:06In September, they held the highest grossing auction in Keeneland history.
00:27:12The fall meet saw record purses and all sources wagering.
00:27:16They launched a new sales event at the Breeders' Cup Championship Sale and the November sale
00:27:21saw a vibrant global market and a new record median.
00:27:26And now we're on to January.
00:27:28The three day January sale will be held from January the 13th to the 15th.
00:27:33Make plans to attend.
00:27:34We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:27:42For quality at every level.
00:27:46For accomplished collector's items.
00:27:50For breeding's strongest foundation.
00:27:53For champions in the making.
00:27:56For new year opportunities.
00:27:58Look to January.
00:28:01The Keeneland January Horses of All Ages Sale, beginning Monday, January 13th.
00:28:07Well, every week we bring you the fastest horse of the week.
00:28:12Now it's time for fastest horse of the year.
00:28:15Also brought to you by the Fast Sires at Windstar Farm, which is appropriate because the fastest
00:28:20horse of the year is also a new Windstar Sire.
00:28:25And that would be Cogburn.
00:28:26Yes, he was beaten in the Breeders' Cup Turf Sprint, one of the worst rides of Irad Ortiz's
00:28:31life.
00:28:32But he got a 114 buyer speed figure at Saratoga in the Jiper on June the 8th to top the list
00:28:39of all of the top buyers of 2024.
00:28:42Here you see the top nine.
00:28:44The ill-fated Ovacharged, another turf sprinter, was second at 113.
00:28:49And you look at him on down the line, Sierra Leone, the winner of the Breeders' Cup Classic,
00:28:53got a 112.
00:28:54What's interesting, only one horse had more than, well, actually Arthur's Ride did have
00:28:59two at more than 110.
00:29:02Fierceness had three, including in defeat, but he had three buyer speed figures of 110
00:29:07or higher.
00:29:08And that's why some people like Andy Beyer, for example, believe that Fierceness should
00:29:11be the three-year-old champion and not Sierra Leone, and that Fierceness maybe even should
00:29:15be horse of the year and not Torpedo Anna.
00:29:18So about Cogburn, more about Cogburn now.
00:29:21His next chapter at WinStar, the four-time graded six winner will stand for a fee of
00:29:24$30,000 in 2025, one of six grade one winners for his sire, Not This Time.
00:29:30And he'll be the first son of Not This Time to stand at WinStar.
00:29:34The farm will also welcome two other new recruits for the 2025 breeding season.
00:29:38Timberlake, the winner of the Champagne, the only grade one winning two-year-old, other
00:29:42than Practical Joke, to stand in Kentucky, he'll be standing for $20,000, while Heartland,
00:29:47a son of Justify, who earned a 90-buyer speed figure in his career debut, will stand at
00:29:52WinStar for a fee of $10,000.
00:30:00Well, for this special end of the year show, we asked our viewers and people who watch
00:30:05the show to write in some questions, some ones that maybe they can get some answers
00:30:10from the trio of us three.
00:30:12And I'll take the first one.
00:30:14We have a question from David.
00:30:16I'm sorry, I don't know his last name.
00:30:18But he wants to know why final scratches are not posted online and to betting apps until
00:30:22sometimes around 11 o'clock in the morning.
00:30:25And his point is he's up at 7 o'clock trying to handicap and do all sorts of different
00:30:30tracks, and he needs those scratches and doesn't understand why it takes so long to get them
00:30:35out.
00:30:36David, I don't have an answer for you other than it's a bad idea.
00:30:41You make an absolutely good point.
00:30:42There's no reason why this.
00:30:43I would say, say, you know, if you want to have a czar of racing type thing, that every
00:30:48track has to have a rule that by 9 a.m. local time, the scratches have to be out.
00:30:53I know when I do my radio show on Saturdays with Dave Johnson, and we'll be coming up
00:30:57on like 1130 talking about a race at, say, I don't know, Oakland, just to pick a track.
00:31:04And then all of a sudden, you know, we find out an hour later, well, the horse we just
00:31:07talked about for 20 minutes is scratched, which is kind of embarrassing, but there's
00:31:11nothing we can do about it.
00:31:13If Zoe and Randy, if you have any input on that, let me know.
00:31:17But I don't really have much to say other than it's one of those things that racing
00:31:20doesn't get right.
00:31:21I've got a completely different take on it.
00:31:25If we can have differences of opinion, I guess we can.
00:31:27I think back in the day, yeah, what you're saying, I think I completely agree with.
00:31:32It should be a lot earlier.
00:31:34But now you've got horse safety issues and you've got state vet examinations on race
00:31:40day of all the horses in that day, and it has delayed the whole process of which horses
00:31:47are going to be allowed to run and which horses might be scratched.
00:31:51So as a result now, Churchill Downs still has an 8 a.m. scratch time, but a lot of times
00:31:56like as we take this today, they didn't announce their scratches until 930 because the state
00:32:01vets weren't through with their jobs.
00:32:03Naira has a 10 a.m. scratch time, Woodbine 1030, Fairgrounds 11 a.m. or noon, depending
00:32:08on the first post time, Penn National is running right now, they have an 11 a.m. scratch time.
00:32:14And these racetracks, you know, once they get past that scratch time, do a pretty good
00:32:17job of getting it out and disseminating it to the public through their own websites or
00:32:23through Equibase within a half hour of when scratch time is actually finished.
00:32:29So times have changed, and I think that's why that David is having some frustration
00:32:35because he can't get the scratches.
00:32:37The good news, David, nobody else is getting them either.
00:32:40So it's paramutual, it's you against you against you, and you're not at any disadvantage right
00:32:45now because of that.
00:32:46All right.
00:32:47The second question is for Zoe in particular.
00:32:50This is from Patricia Wonderly from Highlands Ranch, Colorado.
00:32:53She writes, when one sees foreign horses at the sales, e.g. tattersalls in our Canada,
00:32:58the horses appear in the sales ring in gear with a surcingle in a blanket or half blanket
00:33:03over their flanks.
00:33:04Why?
00:33:05It would seem as though this getup, especially the blanket part, obscures key parts of the
00:33:09horse's conformation.
00:33:10Zoe, you got an answer for that?
00:33:12I do.
00:33:13It's bloody cold in England, and that is my answer.
00:33:17Now, all the pre-inspection is already done by the time they get into the sales ring.
00:33:22A lot of these sales are held in the evening or early afternoon, and they look nice, the
00:33:29blankets, and it shows off that the stable, say, Sir Mark Prescott takes his in blankets.
00:33:35Actually, we used to ride them into the ring.
00:33:37But it can show off whoever is consigning the horse.
00:33:41But people will have already seen that horse if they're doing their due diligence, seen
00:33:46it without the blanket, and that is just purely for looks and for warmth.
00:33:51So I pretty much think that's universal.
00:33:55And I need a refill.
00:33:57I cannot only just have one beer.
00:33:59Me too, but it takes too long to make beer.
00:34:02We'll wait for Zoe to pick up that extra beer.
00:34:05But in the meantime, Randy, we've got a question for you.
00:34:08This comes in from Rick Kolub.
00:34:10It says, does a buyer's speed figure matter if it is a route or a sprint?
00:34:14Example, if buyer is 100 in routes and 75 in sprints, do you use the 100 no matter the
00:34:20distance or do you have to use routes and sprints separately?
00:34:22Also, does turf and dirt matter in either sprints or routes?
00:34:26Well, Rick, the buyer's speed figures as well as Theragraff, Ragazin, et cetera, are all
00:34:32designed to be consistent across all the various distances.
00:34:38It involves something that's called a parallel time chart that uses a deceleration formula.
00:34:44Parallel time chart looks something like this.
00:34:45This is, we have it on computer now.
00:34:47This is like 30 years old.
00:34:48I had it laminated.
00:34:49It needs to have a new lamination, I think.
00:34:53I just got to keep this for a keepsake.
00:34:56But that enables us to compare different running times at different distances.
00:35:00It's how we know that five and a half furlongs in 104 and three is equivalent to six furlongs
00:35:05in 111, which is equivalent to six and a half furlongs in 117 and two and seven furlongs
00:35:11in 123 and four.
00:35:14Those relationships have to be tweaked from track to track because of run-up distances,
00:35:18et cetera, but that's the starting point.
00:35:21We can also extend that out to two-turn races.
00:35:23We know from the data that at Churchill Downs, six furlongs in 111 is equivalent to a mile
00:35:28and an eighth in 152 and three-fifths.
00:35:32Now that's the speed figures, though, and then the handicapping, though, comes in because
00:35:37obviously not all horses are capable of running as well at six furlongs as they are at a mile
00:35:43and an eighth.
00:35:44So that's where you have to make the judgment in your handicapping.
00:35:47The speed figures are designed to be the same across the board, and that's the same on turf
00:35:51as well.
00:35:52We've taken a lot of pains, the Bayer Speed Figure Group, of trying to get figures for
00:35:57turf and for tapita to be exactly equivalent to the figures on the dirt, but they are designed
00:36:03to be the same at all distances.
00:36:05You just have to decide whether a horse can be as effective at distance A as he can be
00:36:10at distance B.
00:36:12The TD and Writer's Room is brought to you by the PHBA, the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders
00:36:16Association.
00:36:17Big news, the 2025 Pennsylvania Stallion and Boarding Farm Directory is now available online
00:36:24at pabred.com.
00:36:26Registered PA bred sired by a PA stallion will receive 40% in breeder awards and up
00:36:32to 40% in owner bonuses for placing first through third.
00:36:37Pennsylvania will also welcome, this is more big news, eight new stallions for 2025, including
00:36:42Alejandro, a Kirtland son of Rachel's Valentina, a daughter of Rachel Alexandra, enticed, who
00:36:49previously stood at Darley's Jonabell Farm and has produced several stakes winners from
00:36:53his first two crops, Imposing, how about this for a pedigree, Imposing is by Gunrunner out
00:36:58of Untappable.
00:36:59And then there's Tyson.
00:37:02Forget about the debacle we saw on Netflix.
00:37:06I couldn't even get it up to get it on my computer because of all the streaming problems.
00:37:10Anyway, don't hold that against Tyson, the stallion.
00:37:13He's Canadian's champion older male in 2023.
00:37:16Also there's Zozo's, the great one place son of Munnings.
00:37:19We were talking about all the time for the Breeders' Cup Dirt Mile.
00:37:22To learn more about the PA bred program, go to pabred.com or call 610-444-1050.
00:37:30PA bred, I think we've built a brand at this point.
00:37:37It's excitement at every step.
00:37:41Roses for Deborah just set a new track record.
00:37:44On average, for the past decade, Pennsylvania paid over $28 million a year in breeders'
00:37:49awards, restricted races, and owner bonuses.
00:37:52Plus, PA bred shine on the world's biggest stage, just three states have bred more Breeders'
00:37:57Cup winners.
00:37:59Learn more at pabred.com.
00:38:02With some of the fullest fields in the country and quality racing year round, there's never
00:38:07been a better time to reap the rewards of breeding and racing in Kentucky.
00:38:13Purse money in Kentucky is at an all-time high, as is average purse per race, outpacing
00:38:18California, Florida, and New York.
00:38:22Kentucky breds, breed them, raise them, race them.
00:38:27We all win.
00:38:32Lots of highlights, as always, for Kentucky breds in calendar year 2024.
00:38:37They won all across the world, seven wins in the Breeders' Cup World Championships.
00:38:41They swept this year's classic races, Mystic Dan, Seize the Gray, and Darnock, and the
00:38:46Triple Crown.
00:38:47Kentucky breds also shined in Europe, the city of Troy just named the European Horse
00:38:51of the Year, Rama Tuel, Opera Singer.
00:38:54They all were Kentucky breds who won important races across the pond.
00:38:58Laurel River, speaking of across the pond, won the Dubai World Cup, and the number one
00:39:03horse also on the Longines World's Best Racehorse Rankings, because he was so strong in winning
00:39:08in Dubai.
00:39:09And in the bluegrass, of course, there is more about Kentucky.
00:39:13Kentucky's average purse per race, more about Kentucky racing, $104,700, average per race.
00:39:23It outpaces all other leading racing jurisdictions, the fullest fields in the country, quality
00:39:28year round racing at Kentucky's five tracks.
00:39:32There is obviously no better time to breed and to race in the bluegrass than right now.
00:39:37Well, why don't we pick up with some more questions from our listeners and our readers.
00:39:43And Zoe, I'll start with you on this one.
00:39:44And this is a question from Tim, who is an avid fan, husband, father of two, and is Derby
00:39:51Maz.
00:39:52I don't quite understand what that means.
00:39:54But anyways, Tim, we thank you for the question.
00:39:56He says the Breeders' Cup is a success, about $150 million was wagered on the two days,
00:40:01horses shipping from nearly everywhere.
00:40:03Yet since the Breeders' Cup began in 1984, total wagering on horse racing in the US has
00:40:08fallen.
00:40:09Certain states, California, Oklahoma, Washington, show troubling breeding trends.
00:40:13Question is, what else can be done by the Breeders' Cup to help move the industry forward?
00:40:19Do we have long enough for this?
00:40:21It's basically on the heels of everything we've always talked about on this show.
00:40:28The fall crop has gone down, right?
00:40:32So you're going to have less racing anyway.
00:40:33There are less races.
00:40:34The handle's going to go down.
00:40:36The purses are through the roof.
00:40:37I don't know if there's anything that the Breeders' Cup per se can do.
00:40:42We know that people like betting on the biggest days in horse racing.
00:40:46You can see that from Kentucky Derby, from Breeders' Cup, from the Preakness, California
00:40:53Crown, the Pegasus, Saudi Cup.
00:40:57People like the big days now.
00:40:59And that's something that Breeders' Cup started when they started back in 1984.
00:41:04And that's something that we're probably going to see more of working forward.
00:41:08So I'm not sure there's an exact answer to this.
00:41:13It's a scary thought.
00:41:14It really is.
00:41:15It's a good question, Tim, but I can't answer it.
00:41:18And I'm pretty sure that was a typo.
00:41:20Don't be mad.
00:41:23So the Breeders' Cup is sitting on rainy day reserves of a little less than $100 million
00:41:31right now.
00:41:32The Jockey Club has about half that, a little less than half that.
00:41:37So the Breeders' Cup is not responsible for everything that's gone wrong in California
00:41:44or elsewhere, and they're not responsible for cleaning it up.
00:41:47But as far as things they could do maybe with that money to be helpful in some way to places
00:41:53like Southern California, which are so important to the overall success of the Breeders' Cup
00:41:57in the future and of third-bed racing in general, maybe there is something that they could do
00:42:05along those lines.
00:42:06I don't know specifically what it would be, but if they have a rainy day fund that's got
00:42:11that much money in it, it's a severe thunderstorm right now in some parts of the country, especially
00:42:16Southern California.
00:42:18So I would encourage the power to be a little less than $100 million.
00:42:24Wow.
00:42:25I didn't know that.
00:42:26Yeah.
00:42:27So maybe there is something that they could do along the way to sort of maybe give a little
00:42:35shot in the arm to some of these places.
00:42:37All right.
00:42:38Well, Tim, we thank you.
00:42:39That was a good question.
00:42:40And then we're going to throw this one back to Randy.
00:42:44This is from Efron De Anda.
00:42:46And this is something, Randy, I don't necessarily know the answer to this myself.
00:42:49I'm sure you will.
00:42:51So I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say.
00:42:54It says, first and foremost, great job on the TDN Writer's Room.
00:42:57Thank you, Efron.
00:42:59Why are works for horses primarily stable in the East labeled as B and H, breezing for
00:43:05B, H handily for handily, obviously, on the racing form for those out there in the West?
00:43:11Here's one example from the Derby.
00:43:13Stronghold works on April 20th and is labeled as an H. On April 28th, he goes five for rungs
00:43:18at Churchill Downs, and that's a B.
00:43:21We're conditioned to think that B is for breezing and H for handily.
00:43:24Why the difference?
00:43:25Recent Breeders' Cup PPs are another example of the difference in East and West Coast versus
00:43:30East and West Coast works.
00:43:32Efron's not going to like my answer on this.
00:43:36When I first read this question, I thought to myself, well, self, it's because that's
00:43:42the way it's always been done in horse racing.
00:43:44And so I reached out to Gary Young, clocker extraordinaire in Southern California, and
00:43:49I read him that question from Efron.
00:43:51And I said, so what would your response be?
00:43:53And he laughed and he said, my response would be, that's the way it's always been done.
00:43:57Right?
00:43:58Efron, my advice to you would be to ignore the Bs and the Hs, because when you look at
00:44:05Southern California racetracks, almost every workout, top to bottom, is an H for handily,
00:44:12which is supposed to mean that the horses are being urged a little bit in workouts coming
00:44:17to the wire.
00:44:18On the East Coast, even in Kentucky, almost every workout, except for maybe rare exceptions,
00:44:24is a B for breezing.
00:44:27But you know, some of those horses are being encouraged in the run to the wire.
00:44:30So just don't pay any attention to the Bs and the Hs and just look at the workout times
00:44:36or whether they're coming from the gate, or maybe if you can find videos online, whether
00:44:41they're breezing in company or something like that.
00:44:43Zoe, you see a lot more workouts than I do.
00:44:46What are your thoughts on that?
00:44:48Watch XB TV.
00:44:50There's a selfless plug for you right there.
00:44:53Watch XB TV.
00:44:55I think there was one horse in Southern California that got a B a couple of times, and that was
00:45:01American Pharoah.
00:45:03First of all, I mean, if you've ever been in the press box with clockers, or the clockers
00:45:07stand with clockers, and you spend a lot of time there, and so have I.
00:45:11It's unbelievable what the best clockers in the country can do when you're talking
00:45:16about after a break, after a maintenance break.
00:45:19Right.
00:45:20And a clocker might have three different sets of horses going on one stopwatch.
00:45:25And it's all he can do to just get the times right, much less identify the horses.
00:45:31And now if you're going to ask the clocker to do all that, and then be able to tell you
00:45:36whether the horse breezed handily or breezing, I think you're asking a little too much there
00:45:43in a lot of situations.
00:45:44So, I would just look at the workout times and not pay too much attention to the other
00:45:49designations.
00:45:50All right.
00:45:51I'll take this one.
00:45:52It's a question from Richard Zwirn.
00:45:54And he says, I regard the TDN so highly.
00:45:56Thank you, Richard.
00:45:57The only possible constructive feedback I could offer is that this is not an easy game.
00:46:01And too often in the press, we only hear about these monstrous successes.
00:46:05There's a great deal of heartbreak, patience, and expense and frustration.
00:46:08And it seems to be ignored by all outlets, as if we're almost trying to lure folks into
00:46:14the industry by giving them a true snapshot.
00:46:16It ought to be addressed because I believe there is a place for it in this dialogue.
00:46:19Do you agree?
00:46:20Yes, I do agree.
00:46:21But, Richard, I think that what I don't agree with you is that the TDN is not a Pollyanna-ish
00:46:28publication.
00:46:30I mean, there's certain lines we don't cross.
00:46:33I think we try very hard not to embarrass people and that sort of thing.
00:46:37But you take a situation where if there's a story that's out there and it's negative, we
00:46:43will report on it.
00:46:45Matter of fact, I dealt with this year writing about how I thought Hyza should be able to
00:46:52test the horses in the two-year-old sales before they breeze.
00:46:57Make that their official first workout instead of when they get to the racetrack because
00:47:02there was a couple problems this year with a guy using Clonbuterol.
00:47:05And I don't know who the person is, but somebody actually said, because I wrote that, they
00:47:09were going to start a boycott of the advertisers.
00:47:12They wanted all the Ocala people to boycott the TDN.
00:47:16So, you know, the one thing that we don't do, and as a journalist, I've never really felt
00:47:23quite clear about this.
00:47:25I would agree that one thing we don't do is that when a guy buys a horse for $2 million and
00:47:31he goes out and wins by eight first time out, wow, isn't this great?
00:47:35Isn't this guy smart?
00:47:37Isn't this an unbelievable race?
00:47:39We don't, and neither does anyone else ever write about the $2 million horse that runs
00:47:44one time, gets beat 17 lengths, and becomes a show horse for your neighbor's niece.
00:47:52I don't know.
00:47:54That is far too complicated to go down that rabbit hole.
00:47:58But those are my thoughts on that.
00:48:01Randy, you got anything to add?
00:48:02Yeah, and then the situation that we find ourselves in is that if you have a guy that
00:48:07wins the Kentucky Derby, let's say, with a $2 million yearling purchase, and he's had
00:48:11eight other seven-figure yearling purchases that didn't even make the races, if you focus
00:48:16on that or if you mention that, then people say, oh, you're just focusing on the negative.
00:48:21This guy just won the Kentucky Derby.
00:48:23I mean, why don't you focus on that?
00:48:25Bring up the negatives.
00:48:26But yeah, I mean, it's tough.
00:48:30Case in point, the Green Monkey, right?
00:48:33Nobody can possibly forget about the $16 million two-year-old that never did diddly-squat.
00:48:39So that's your case in point.
00:48:41It's not an easy game.
00:48:43I've had mares.
00:48:44I've tried to breed mares.
00:48:46I am the unluckiest person in the world.
00:48:50Dead.
00:48:51Died foaling.
00:48:52The mare died.
00:48:53Bred a show horse.
00:48:54Bred another show horse.
00:48:56The foal died.
00:48:57It's a hard game.
00:49:00It's hard.
00:49:02I'm not going to say it's not.
00:49:04That's why you have to really embrace the good things that happen in this sport because
00:49:09it's so hard regardless of how much money you put in.
00:49:13We know people that have put millions of dollars into the game.
00:49:17And just to get that one win is the best feeling on earth.
00:49:20And then when you breed a Kentucky Derby winner, we'll focus on the Kentucky Derby winner,
00:49:24and we won't focus on all the hardships that you've had along the way to get there.
00:49:28Right.
00:49:30As we all know, the TDN Writers' Room is brought to you by XBTV.
00:49:34And it's time now, guys, not for the work of the week, but the XBTV work of the year.
00:49:40Can you guys even hesitate to guess, Randy, Bill, what the work could be?
00:49:45Because honestly, I couldn't, but I'm going to give you guys a shot.
00:49:50Well, I can guess, but I've seen your script already online, so that would be cheating.
00:49:57Could I have guessed before that?
00:49:59No way in hell.
00:50:01All right.
00:50:02What was the most watched work on XBTV this year?
00:50:05Well, it was easy.
00:50:06It was Domestic Product and Sierra Leone working four furlongs on May the 18th at Saratoga.
00:50:12Domestic Product would go on to win the Alan Jerkins at Saratoga.
00:50:15And while Sierra Leone had to settle for third that summer in the Traverse,
00:50:19he would, of course, go on to win the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:50:22This work, guys, got just under 4,000 views.
00:50:26And you want to know why?
00:50:28I mean, Randy, you probably can guess this already,
00:50:31because everybody wanted to see if Sierra Leone would go in a straight line.
00:50:37That was the most clicked on.
00:50:39I'm not sure anyone watched the work in its entirety.
00:50:41It was like, let's see what this cage pit does.
00:50:44Let's watch it over and over and over again and see how straight he is.
00:50:50And that was the one reason why.
00:50:52So thank you, Sierra Leone.
00:50:57Be a smarter, better with XBTV.
00:51:00The best horses.
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00:51:31Fraction of the bills.
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00:51:43and compete at the highest level of thoroughbred racing.
00:51:48West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
00:51:52Visit westpointtb.com.
00:51:56Meanwhile, as always, West Point Thoroughbreds,
00:51:58one of our sponsors here at the TD and Riders Room,
00:52:01and West Point is wrapping up a special season
00:52:03for Terry Finley and Debbie Finley,
00:52:05who founded West Point with a single low-level claiming horse
00:52:09way back in 1991 at Philadelphia Park.
00:52:14They've come a long, long way, and in 2024,
00:52:16they had a breakthrough in the depth of the roster.
00:52:19Two dozen stakes wins have fueled a stable record for purse earnings,
00:52:24surpassing their previous record mark of $8.8 million.
00:52:28By early November, we're still a month left to go.
00:52:31Carson's run started in the three-year-old grass division
00:52:34for Christophe Clement.
00:52:36He won two legs of the New York Turf Triple.
00:52:38Vava landed a memorable triumph in the Derby City Distaff
00:52:42on the Kentucky Derby undercard for trainer Cherie DeVoe.
00:52:45And of course, stoking the flames for 2025,
00:52:48the most recent West Point horse we've talked about,
00:52:50the two-year-old Bullard, has emerged as a force
00:52:53early on the Kentucky Derby trail with two straight resounding wins,
00:52:56including that one last week in the Bob Hope for trainer Michael McCarthy.
00:53:01You know how long I've known Terry Finley?
00:53:04I knew him when he had hair.
00:53:06That's how long, when him and Buzz Chase used to go around
00:53:10and look at yearlings together.
00:53:12Buzz Chase was brilliant. He really was.
00:53:14But that's how long I've known Terry Finley.
00:53:16And for him to do what he's done, it's been years,
00:53:19but it's still a comparatively short period of time.
00:53:22It's been absolutely amazing with West Point.
00:53:25I thought you were going to say you were in the Army with him.
00:53:27Yeah, quite a success story there.
00:53:32All right, guys, let's move on.
00:53:34What was the race of the year in 2024?
00:53:37I think this is a no-brainer.
00:53:38I want to see if you guys come up with something else.
00:53:40But it was the Travers.
00:53:41Yeah.
00:53:42Fierceness wins by a head-over-torpedo, Anna.
00:53:44Look who was third, Sierra Leone.
00:53:46Look who was fourth, Dornach.
00:53:48And it's not just that they had a bunch of good horses,
00:53:51but the drama of the filly trying to beat the best colt out there.
00:53:55She came so close, almost got it done.
00:53:58This, to me, is a slam dunk.
00:54:00I can't even think of the second-best race of the year.
00:54:02Yeah, I agree with you.
00:54:04But since you said that, I'll go to the second-best race of the year,
00:54:07and that would be the closest finish in the history of the Kentucky Derby,
00:54:10a three-horse poodle finish.
00:54:12And now, Zoe's got to come up with something else.
00:54:14I got nothing.
00:54:17Damn you two.
00:54:19Yeah, the Derby for me.
00:54:22It will be the Derby.
00:54:24Some good races.
00:54:26And honestly, the Classic was a very, very good race as well.
00:54:29Absolutely.
00:54:31She pulled that one out, the Classic.
00:54:32All right.
00:54:33That's because Zoe's a pro.
00:54:35All right, so we move on.
00:54:36What races would you like to see Torpedo Anna go for in 2025?
00:54:41Kenny McPeak has said at first he's going to concentrate only on Philly races,
00:54:46you know, the Apple Blossom, things like that.
00:54:48But knowing Kenny McPeak and his thirst for, like, these challenges
00:54:52and his desire to really prove his horses at the very top level,
00:54:56could you see him running Torpedo Anna in the Breeders' Cup Classic?
00:55:00All things being equal, she has a good year.
00:55:02She doesn't get hurt, et cetera.
00:55:04I think she might, and that's what I'm going to wait for.
00:55:08I can see it.
00:55:10Yeah, I mean, you've got the Whitney as well, if he really wants to try that again.
00:55:15And I'm sure he will.
00:55:18It really depends on how she comes back next year.
00:55:21Exactly.
00:55:22It's going to be dependent one race at a time because she'll be a year older.
00:55:27Like I've said time and time again, she's not easy on herself by any means.
00:55:31So it's not like she's going to get turned out for a few months.
00:55:35She's still got to train every day, and she's hard on herself.
00:55:39So he'll probably take it one race at a time.
00:55:42Would it be great to see her beat the boys, beat fierceness?
00:55:46Wow, wouldn't that be amazing to see that rematch?
00:55:50We'll see.
00:55:51Yeah, we've all seen horses that didn't come back, you know,
00:55:54quite as strong from one year to the next.
00:55:56If she comes back and performs just as well at age four as she did at age three,
00:56:01just as dynamic as she is in some of her better races,
00:56:04you know Kenny will be aggressive.
00:56:07I mean, he showed that in the Traverse,
00:56:09and I'm sure he'll run her against the boys at some point.
00:56:12And depending on how she runs in that race,
00:56:14hell, he may run her against the boys multiple times.
00:56:17So, yeah, it's all TBD,
00:56:20but it's certainly something that we have to look forward to
00:56:23that is going to be a lot of fun to think about.
00:56:26So, of course, we're also looking forward to the horses.
00:56:29They'll be turning three any day now, and, of course, that's on January 1.
00:56:33What newly turned three-year-olds are you most looking forward to watching develop in 2025?
00:56:39Or any other horses you're excited to watch?
00:56:41Go for it, Zoe.
00:56:42I need to go first because we might be on the same horse, myself and Randy.
00:56:46Sovereignty for Bill Mott, son of intermischief,
00:56:51out of a Bernardini mare, owned by Godolphin,
00:56:54broker's maiden in the street sense by five or six.
00:56:58He's the real deal.
00:57:00I am really looking forward to seeing him.
00:57:04You know, so visually impressive in his races.
00:57:07If I had to pick one horse right now for the Kentucky Derby,
00:57:11and this is an important caveat, that we have seen run,
00:57:15then I would say Sovereignty would be first.
00:57:18But right now, the newly turned three-year-old that I'm looking forward to the most
00:57:24is probably one that hasn't even started yet.
00:57:26And it's probably in the Bob Baffert barn in Southern California, to be honest with you.
00:57:31Maybe the Todd Pletcher barn at Gulfstream Park.
00:57:33But something is going to emerge with some sensational performance,
00:57:37like Nysos came out of nowhere last year.
00:57:40And unfortunately, you know, he didn't pan out yet.
00:57:43He didn't pan out last year as a three-year-old to make it into the Triple Crown races.
00:57:47But that's the thing about thoroughbred racing now in 2024 and 2025,
00:57:53is that so many of these three-year-olds don't make their debuts
00:57:58until much later than they used to in the past.
00:58:00So it's kind of always a work in progress until you get to like February or so.
00:58:05And even then, I mean, when did Justify make his first start? February?
00:58:10Yeah, it was February, late February.
00:58:13Guys, I think you're overlooking the obvious, East Avenue.
00:58:17Now, you know, he's not somebody who we're going to see come out of the woodwork.
00:58:21It's not going to be somebody we're going to see being a first-time Baffert horse
00:58:24that costs $26 million and wins by 10 lengths.
00:58:27But this horse was brilliant in the Breeders' Futurity,
00:58:30looked like the horse to beat in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile,
00:58:33and stumbled badly at the start and lost all chance.
00:58:36To me, he won't be the Eclipse Award winner because he didn't win the Breeders' Cup.
00:58:40That'll go to the Baffert horse.
00:58:42But the fact that he was brilliant before that,
00:58:45can completely throw out his race in the Breeders' Cup,
00:58:48is in the hands of a really smart outfit.
00:58:51I think he's the one I'm looking forward to watching in 2025.
00:58:57Yeah, can't argue with you there.
00:58:59Well, that's a wrap on this week's show,
00:59:02and I want to thank my compatriots,
00:59:05Zoe Cabman and Randy Moss,
00:59:07and all the people that worked so hard behind the scenes,
00:59:10Katie Petruniak, Sue Finley, Anthony LaRocca, and Alita LaRocca.
00:59:13Happy holidays, everybody.
00:59:15Hopefully 2025 will be a winning year for all of you.
00:59:18Can we get them in here?
00:59:20Can we show Sue and Katie,
00:59:22so everyone can see the rest of the staff and Anthony?
00:59:27There's Sue.
00:59:28There's Sue.
00:59:29Hi!
00:59:30There's Anthony.
00:59:31There's Katie.
00:59:32Yay! Where's your Christmas tree?
00:59:34Those are the MVPs, right?
00:59:36Yeah.
00:59:37And there's Katie's tree.
00:59:38I only have Katie's tree.
00:59:40Kentucky Blue.
00:59:42We would have been dressed up if we had known.
00:59:45That makes it work right there.
00:59:47Well, you're looking as festive as Bill, Sue.
00:59:51That's not saying much, Zoe.
00:59:53You're not wearing a beaver, but that's okay.
00:59:56I'm not going there.