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00:00:00They say the harder the work, the greater the reward.
00:00:18This is our life's work.
00:00:24Good morning.
00:00:25It's 9.07 a.m. here in the frigid Northeast, and this is another edition of the TDN Writers
00:00:29Room podcast.
00:00:31Joe Bianca has the week off, so Bill Finley, that's me, I will be filling in this week
00:00:35for him, hosting.
00:00:36And by the way, what a great day for Red Sox Nation.
00:00:40Big poppies going to the Hall of Fame.
00:00:44Jonathan Green, general manager of DJ Stable, and Bill, I have a trivia question for you.
00:00:49What do David Ortiz and Bob Baffert have in common?
00:00:53That probably goes down a path I don't necessarily want to talk about, John.
00:00:58Well, according to Craig Robertson, neither person ever tested positive for performance-enhancing
00:01:02drugs, and everyone in New York is just jealous of their talents.
00:01:06There you go.
00:01:07Brian DiDonato, Franklin Ave equine, and I've been gone all this time, I come back, I don't
00:01:13even have the best beard anymore.
00:01:14Yeah, what is it?
00:01:16I'm the only guy in this whole thing that doesn't let go with the beard look.
00:01:19So of course, I mean, Joe has quite a good beard.
00:01:23Well, it was a very eventful week in horse racing, it's been the case for so many weeks,
00:01:28with all the craziness and all the trials and the drug cases and whatnot.
00:01:33But I thought the one, guys, that really stood out as the most important story of the week,
00:01:39or maybe the one that really, you know, garnered the most headlines, because it was different.
00:01:44We have the story of Michael Sanchez, the jockey that mainly rides at parks, was suspended
00:01:49for 60 days when it was revealed that he was making bets in races.
00:01:54Now that in and of itself is okay, you can bet on your own horses, but you cannot bet
00:01:58against them.
00:01:59And Sanchez was on occasion betting against his own horses.
00:02:03That is a very serious charge.
00:02:06However, his lawyer, Alan Pincus, who deserves, to me, some sort of award here for the greatest
00:02:10job in the history of being a lawyer, convinced the Pennsylvania Racing Commission that this
00:02:15was really about a young man who was troubled, had depression, and was using the gambling
00:02:20as an outlet.
00:02:21And he was trying in his races, he wasn't trying to lose.
00:02:24Therefore, he got only, and I say only because it is a pretty light sentence for what he
00:02:29is not only accused of, but admitted that he did, only 60 days.
00:02:34John, what did you think?
00:02:36So just, you know, aside from the fact that in other sports, they would be permanently
00:02:39banned.
00:02:40You know, he got a 60-day ban, basically, 60-day suspension.
00:02:46And Bill, as you mentioned, you know, it was wonderful craftsmanship by his attorney because
00:02:51obviously it wasn't his fault.
00:02:52It wasn't the guy's fault.
00:02:53He was depressed.
00:02:54And I'm not making light of the fact that, you know, maybe he does have, you know, he
00:02:58does have depression and that certainly, you know, mental illness is nothing to joke about.
00:03:03But it's certainly not also the primary excuse that you use when you say, well, that's why,
00:03:08you know, I was betting against myself, you know, in a race.
00:03:12I mean, at some point in time, you have to be accountable.
00:03:14You have to be accountable for what you do.
00:03:15And it doesn't matter, unfortunately, if you have mental illness or you have a substance
00:03:19abuse problem or whatever it is, if you're doing something against the rules, then you're
00:03:24doing something against the rules and you pretty much have to suffer the consequences
00:03:27of it.
00:03:29So it's a shame that somebody has to go through that kind of personal persecution that would,
00:03:36you know, lend himself to do something outrageous and against the rules.
00:03:40But the bottom line is, it was against the rules.
00:03:42Now, we can also argue, was 60 days long enough?
00:03:45And I'm sure Brian is going to have a comment on this as well.
00:03:48But 60 days seems like nothing, absolutely nothing.
00:03:50I mean, you know, there are other instances of people in the business, trainers and jockeys,
00:03:56you know, alike, that have done other issues, you know, broken other rules, and they've
00:04:01gotten, you know, substantially more time.
00:04:04And to me, as an owner who, you know, Monmouth Park came out and said, venestration who runs
00:04:10Monmouth Park came out and said, owners cannot bet on a race because it's a conflict of interest.
00:04:15Well, I have about as much to do with the way my horse is going to run once it's in
00:04:19the gate as the guy who's selling, you know, Cracker Jacks and popcorn in stands.
00:04:24Absolutely nothing.
00:04:25But this guy, you know, was riding the horse.
00:04:28He was on the horse.
00:04:30Is anybody who has any more specific influence on a horse race?
00:04:35Once the gate opens, it's the jockey.
00:04:39My question is, and maybe I missed this, but I didn't see anything is, do we know how much
00:04:43money he was betting?
00:04:44Because to me, that would really speak to intent and everything.
00:04:48I mean, if he's betting five bucks a race, and it was some weird action bet, and the
00:04:53lawyer's explanation is valid, it's one thing.
00:04:57And maybe that explains why the suspension was as short as it is.
00:05:00Can I just jump in?
00:05:02Because I have to answer that question.
00:05:04Then I want to go back to you.
00:05:06And you weren't the first one to bring that up.
00:05:08So I report on the story the day it broke.
00:05:10And then the following day, I contacted, again, his attorney, Alan Pincus.
00:05:15And I'll just read you verbatim from my text to him to and his reply, Alan, a lot of people
00:05:20have been asking me how much Michael was betting.
00:05:23Can you shed any more light on that or anything else that will explain the betting frenzy
00:05:27you described?
00:05:28His answer was a few hundred a race.
00:05:31Doesn't tell us much, but it was not five.
00:05:34It was not true to show on the favorite.
00:05:35At least we know that.
00:05:36Yeah.
00:05:37Man, he really should have been, didn't he win at a couple of huge prices?
00:05:41He could have made some scores if he was betting his own horses in those races.
00:05:46My visceral reaction when I first heard it, like when it first broke on Twitter or whatever,
00:05:50my first reaction was ban this guy for life.
00:05:53And you guys are right.
00:05:54The lawyer did a great job spinning it.
00:05:55You almost feel sorry for the guy.
00:05:57I don't know.
00:05:58I mean, obviously, we don't have all the details.
00:06:02Yeah, it does seem like 60 is a little bit of a weak suspension, just given that it's
00:06:09just a cardinal sin for somebody for a jockey.
00:06:12Yeah.
00:06:13I mean, I pretty much agree with you guys.
00:06:15First of all, I've never met Michael Sanchez.
00:06:17People who know him have told me that they really like him.
00:06:19He's a likable guy.
00:06:20Matter of fact, somebody who's very clued in said, if you would ask me who was the last
00:06:24jockey at parks to be involved in a scandal like that, I would have said Michael Sanchez.
00:06:28I am sympathetic to the depression scenario, but I think that you guys are right that it's
00:06:36like Pete Rose betting on baseball.
00:06:38Now, Pete Rose, he never came out and said, I did it because I was depressed or anything
00:06:42like that.
00:06:43But there's a line that Major League Baseball says you cannot cross, just cannot ever cross
00:06:48this line.
00:06:50And he crossed it and he was banned for life from the game.
00:06:54Sixty days just is not nearly enough, no matter the circumstances.
00:06:58So do you want to ban him for life?
00:06:59Do you want to ban him for five years, ten years?
00:07:01I mean, I think that would be more appropriate.
00:07:04So a couple more points.
00:07:05He may not be done with this because presumably he also pulled the same shenanigans when riding
00:07:12in New York and Maryland.
00:07:14So the New York and Maryland racing commissions could come out with separate rulings of their
00:07:18own saying, you know, we don't what happened in Pennsylvania has nothing to do with us
00:07:22on such and such a date.
00:07:24You bet against yourself in the third race at Laurel or the fifth race at Aqueduct.
00:07:27We are going to ban you for X amount of years, et cetera.
00:07:32The other thing that and Brian, you brought this up, you know, again, maybe maybe it doesn't
00:07:36matter if he was betting if he was riding a three to five shot and he bet ten thousand
00:07:42to win on the second choice in the race or if he bet two to show on, you know, because
00:07:47he liked the name of a horse, probably that doesn't really matter because of what we've
00:07:51said here.
00:07:52It's a line you can't cross.
00:07:53However, I would love to see the printout of his bets.
00:07:57We're never going to see it.
00:07:58I mean, the Pennsylvania Racing Commission is never going to release that.
00:08:01Michael Sanchez's attorney is never going to release that.
00:08:03But that would answer a lot of questions.
00:08:05You know, was he betting trifectas and and riding the favorite and not including his
00:08:10horse in the trifecta?
00:08:12Or was he just betting 20 to win on some horse?
00:08:15You know, that would answer an awful lot of questions there.
00:08:19So we'll see.
00:08:20I don't think we've heard the end of the story because of the reasons I brought up with New
00:08:22York and Maryland, perhaps taking action against him.
00:08:26But, you know, I think at least we're all in agreement 60 days seems very, very light.
00:08:33And that Alan Pincus is the greatest lawyer that ever lived in the history of thoroughbred
00:08:38horse racing.
00:08:39I know who I'm calling this time to get a DUI or something.
00:08:44This is an infomercial for Alan Pincus.
00:08:47He's got to be one of the greatest lawyers of all time.
00:08:49Yes.
00:08:50And you can call him at 1-88-I-am-a-good-lawyer.
00:08:51I want to remind you that the TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:08:56Keeneland Spring Meet returns April 8th through the 29th.
00:09:00New Keeneland Select accounts that wager $300 in the first 30 days earn $100 back with our
00:09:04sign up bonus.
00:09:05Visit KeenelandSelect.com to sign up.
00:09:09Well, this weekend at Gulfstream Park is going to be a race that I know we've all been looking
00:09:13forward to since the Breeders' Cup.
00:09:15And it's one of those throwdown races.
00:09:17I love these things.
00:09:18And of course, I'm talking about the Pegasus World Cup.
00:09:21And let's see, I didn't even count up how many are entered in here.
00:09:25But it doesn't matter how many there are, because this is a race where the focal point
00:09:29is on two horses and two horses only.
00:09:31Whoever the heck is going to be the third choice in this race is probably going to be
00:09:34about 15 to 1, which tells you the dominance of Nick's Go and Life is Good.
00:09:39The race was drawn on Tuesday.
00:09:41Nick's Go draws the rail.
00:09:43This will be his last career start before he goes off to the breeding shed.
00:09:46And then Life is Good drew the four post position.
00:09:50Lots of questions about this race.
00:09:52Number one, who is the better horse of the two is one.
00:09:55And number two, I think, is the pace scenario.
00:09:57You have two horses that seem to have to have the lead, very, very fast horses.
00:10:03Any chance they're going to burn each other out and set it up for some crazy long shot
00:10:06in here.
00:10:07Yeah, this is a race that I think even come Breeders' Cup time later on in the fall or
00:10:13at the end of the year, we'll be looking back at this and saying this perhaps was the race
00:10:16of the year.
00:10:17It's that good.
00:10:18John, what do you think?
00:10:19Bill, I think this this comes down to, you know, Aledar Affirmed, Superman, Batman.
00:10:26You know, I mean, it's really a mano a mano kind of race.
00:10:30I know there are nine horses in the race, but it really comes down to Nick's Go and
00:10:33Life is Good.
00:10:35It's probably going to be those two horses really from the time the gate opens.
00:10:39Both of them have a front running style.
00:10:42You know, Nick's Go obviously has inherited the rail.
00:10:45So, you know, he's going to he's going to Nick's Go and Go and Go.
00:10:48And you know, he hasn't packed it in if he has an easy lead.
00:10:53Life is Good is trying to do something he's never done before, which is go nine furlongs,
00:10:57which is, you know, doesn't sound like a lot further than the mile that he's dominated
00:11:01the past two races, but it is a little bit further.
00:11:03He also likes to always go to the front.
00:11:06And it'll be interesting to see, you know, if either Rosario is riding Nick's Go or
00:11:12Ira and Ortiz on Life is Good, if either of them are going to, you know, give the other
00:11:16horse the lead on its own or if they're going to go, you know, gate to wire together.
00:11:22But, you know, Bill, you nailed all the other things.
00:11:25I mean, the third best horse in the race is probably going to be double digits.
00:11:28And, you know, they may be Nick's Go and Life is Good, maybe nip and tuck all the way
00:11:33around the racetrack.
00:11:34But I think they're going to be 10 lengths up on the rest of the field.
00:11:36I mean, they're just so much better than the other horses.
00:11:40And I can understand entering a horse in this race because it's a $3 million purse.
00:11:45I understand trying to run for third place because that's basically what I think is going
00:11:48to happen.
00:11:50The other interesting thing in going through the race that really piqued my interest was
00:11:56that there's nine horses in the race, guys, eight of the nine entries have had trainer
00:12:03changes at least once.
00:12:05I mean, you see that in a claiming race, you know, where you see nine horses in the race
00:12:09and a bunch of them changed hands for various reasons.
00:12:12But do you remember ever seeing a grade one with nine horses in it where eight of them,
00:12:17eight of them had trainer changes?
00:12:20That blew my mind.
00:12:22The only one that didn't was Sir Winston that Mark Cassie trades.
00:12:25Yeah, that's interesting.
00:12:28I mean, I kind of thought Stiletto boy was a little interesting as a third horse to get,
00:12:32you know, he beaten 30 lengths, but run third and I know he sold one of the horses of racing
00:12:38age sales.
00:12:39I think the interesting thing is just tactics between the two jockeys.
00:12:43To me, life is good as the faster horse early.
00:12:45He's obviously stretching out from the shorter races on pace figures.
00:12:48He's faster.
00:12:50Nix goes like, oh, you know, get to the front in those longer races.
00:12:54He hasn't taken a ton of heat in some of his races.
00:12:57And you know, if you give him an easy lead, he's he can't be caught.
00:13:02I mean, they're drawn.
00:13:03It's kind of interesting.
00:13:04I think it was the other way.
00:13:07You know, next go would just sit off him a little bit and try to make a run.
00:13:11Now he's a little his hands force a little bit from the rail.
00:13:16So I mean, I kind of think life is good.
00:13:20You have like the pleasure factor in Florida.
00:13:22He's just so good at Gulfstream, you know, kind of seems like he's got a better chance
00:13:27to go out there and just totally freak.
00:13:28But it's it's next goes last race.
00:13:31He's going to leave it all out there.
00:13:32You know, like we said, it's just going to be a really exciting race.
00:13:35Well, I'll throw this question over to both you and John.
00:13:38You can start.
00:13:39Is there any chance we're going to see a repeat of the Breeders Cup this staff where these
00:13:43two are going to go in 44 and change and no matter how much better they are than everybody
00:13:47else, someone is going to come and benefit maybe, you know, one or two or even three
00:13:53horses benefit from a suicidal duel and that this is going to this race is just going to
00:13:58blow up.
00:13:59Yeah, I mean, you could you could certainly make a case for that bill.
00:14:04And I know when I was handicapping it before this morning's podcast, I was trying to come
00:14:08up with a horse that would take advantage of, you know, if there was a suicide type
00:14:14speed duel between the two favorites and really.
00:14:18And this is no offense to anyone else in the race, but they're definitely a notch below.
00:14:21I mean, this is this is really so much of Nick's go versus life is good.
00:14:26And I think the jockeys are going to be smart enough where they're going to know they both
00:14:31have good clocks in their head.
00:14:32They both know how to get to the front and kind of slow it down a little bit.
00:14:35I don't think they're going to go out there in twenty one and forty three.
00:14:39And, you know, like like what what life is good and Jackie's warrior did in the in the
00:14:44jerkins.
00:14:45I don't think it's going to be that much of a pace, but it's nine furlongs and, you know,
00:14:50you could make the case that the horses could just run out of gas and maybe somebody comes
00:14:55from from off of it.
00:14:56But I would have a hard time betting that to me, this is the kind of race where I really
00:15:02want to watch this race.
00:15:04But unless you're Michael Sanchez, I wouldn't bet on it.
00:15:08Yeah, I mean, I'd love to be the contrarian and find the horse that's going to clunk up
00:15:13and run by them both.
00:15:15It's just hard to it's hard to predict.
00:15:17I think if I was playing the race, which I don't really plan to do, and I wanted to get
00:15:20cute, you know, if you like horses in the previous races, you're playing a pick for
00:15:24something. I'd probably just toss the two favorites, use everybody else and like kind
00:15:28of root for the for the meltdown.
00:15:30But it's hard to envision just based on the form.
00:15:33One thing I want to add to it, I definitely agree with Brian, I think the draw here was
00:15:37very important and I think it works out to Nick's advantage.
00:15:40First of all, you know, the mile and eight starts right on top of the turn there at
00:15:43Goldstream. So not that the four posts for life is good as a bad post, but, you know,
00:15:47the one post is a very good post.
00:15:49And I think that is going to dictate the race because Nick's go at least going into that
00:15:54first turn has to maintain that inside position and presumably will be in front of life
00:16:00is good. Now, is he going to be are they going to be right next to one another?
00:16:03Is going to be a half length in front of them, length in front of them.
00:16:05And Brian, I agree with you.
00:16:06I think all things considered, life is good, probably is a little bit faster.
00:16:09But I think the post position is going to dictate because Nick's go does not want to
00:16:13take back. And, you know, I could see this race looking like I mean, we haven't had a
00:16:18match race of any significance in this country in many, many years.
00:16:22I could see this race being a match race between these two and seven other horses, 15
00:16:28lengths behind battling it out for third.
00:16:30And it looked like one of those workouts you see in the morning on XBTV with these two
00:16:35just gallop along next to one another.
00:16:37And then somebody in the last 16th of a mile sticks their nose in front.
00:16:40But having said all that, the tactics are interesting.
00:16:44That's fascinating. And with Nick's go back in here and going against life is good, at
00:16:48least early on in 2022, far and away the race of the year.
00:16:51And it's going to be hard to top this race no matter what happens.
00:16:56Once again, we want to remind you that we're brought to you by Keeneland and lots going
00:16:59on there right now. By the way, Keeneland will be awarding a record seven point seven
00:17:04million dollars for 19 stakes set to run at their upcoming spring meet.
00:17:08It's also announced last week that Keeneland will host their April Horses of Racing Age
00:17:12sale following the final race on closing day of the meet on Friday, April 29th.
00:17:17Also, Keeneland also recently announced that 11 Keeneland sales grads are candidates for
00:17:22the 2021 Eclipse Awards, including classic winner and this weekend's Pegasus contender
00:17:27Nick's go. John, you're the big sale, Brian, too, if you want to weigh in on this.
00:17:32I'm not a real familiar with the sales or not nearly as familiar as you guys are.
00:17:37John, tell us the story of the April Horses of Racing Age sale.
00:17:40Well, that's really been developing over the past couple of years, and I know many years
00:17:45ago Keeneland was looking to supplement, you know, have additional horses being sold at
00:17:52their two year old April sale, and they found that there was a real appetite for for proven
00:17:58horses there as well.
00:17:59And I think that that sale part has grown and developed to the point where now it's a
00:18:04standalone sale.
00:18:06You know, people and Brian's in the racing game as well.
00:18:08And he'll tell you that, you know, if you have a horse that has a little bit of a proven
00:18:13past performance, people will spend, you know, hand over fist to get those kind of horses.
00:18:18And Keeneland, wisely enough, recognized, you know, a need in the market and and are
00:18:23offering that kind of a sale for Horses of Racing Age sale.
00:18:27And Bill, one of the other exciting things that may come down the pike is that, you know,
00:18:31we as a show may be down there that week, the final week at Keeneland, you know, to
00:18:36highlight the Horses of Racing Age sale.
00:18:38So not only is it a sale for proven horses, but it's a week for proven podcasters.
00:18:43All right. Well, stay tuned.
00:18:45Hopefully we'll be making a road trip to Lexington, Kentucky.
00:18:48Still, I make the suggestion we should do the show from Fodder Park.
00:18:51I know we take it seriously, but we shall see.
00:18:55We'll be right back. We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:19:00They say the harder the work, the greater the reward.
00:19:06And this is hard work.
00:19:10It's the hours put in before dawn and after dark.
00:19:15It's the sacrifice, the sweat, the failure and the faith.
00:19:22This is our industry.
00:19:25This is our life's work.
00:19:30Respect the law.
00:19:32He's earned it.
00:19:34A grade one winning juvenile.
00:19:36Tis the law pops the court in the champagne.
00:19:39A classic winning three year old.
00:19:41Tis the law is going to win the first leg of the Triple Crown.
00:19:45Five triple digit buyers.
00:19:47Respect the law. Tis the law.
00:19:49The best son of Red Hot Sire Constitution.
00:19:53He's left the others behind.
00:19:55He's going to win the Run Happy Travers.
00:19:57Tis the law.
00:20:00And welcome back.
00:20:01I want to remind you that the TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Gilmore.
00:20:05With eight winners already in 2022, Cupid is now the leading second crop
00:20:10sire by winners.
00:20:11On Saturday, he had his third stakes winner with Sterling
00:20:13Silver in the Franklin Square Stakes at Aqueduct for trainer Tom Albertani.
00:20:18Another Ashford sire was represented by a stakes winner this weekend
00:20:20with Uncle Mo's 40 under in the E.R.
00:20:22Bradley Stakes at the Fairgrounds.
00:20:25He's the second stakes performer so far this year for Uncle Mo,
00:20:29who also has Remson Stakes winner Mo Donegal on this year's Derby Trail.
00:20:32Brian, I asked John last time, Cupid, so I'll throw it to you.
00:20:37Cupid stands for only $5,000.
00:20:40Are you pleasantly surprised as a potential buyer?
00:20:43They didn't raise that stud fee.
00:20:44It seems like a terrific bargain.
00:20:47Yeah, and he really came came on second half of the year.
00:20:51You know, maybe it was a little quiet, just going into the two year old sales
00:20:54and then his horses came out running, you know, as they stretched out,
00:20:56as they developed, Cupid wasn't a super early precocious type.
00:20:59So it's not surprising that,
00:21:01you know, his progeny have kind of gotten better with a little more time.
00:21:04And he had a winner on Sunday with the most confusing name.
00:21:08It's like, oh, I think it's Cupid's Charismatic Cutie.
00:21:13It was a debut winner.
00:21:14But it's like, yeah, but we were actually in that race.
00:21:18And I was like, what?
00:21:19This is like every word is spelled incorrectly.
00:21:21And the horse ran like a champion.
00:21:24Exactly. Yeah.
00:21:25Well, let's get into the weekly portion of the TDN podcast
00:21:29where we discuss the trials and the tribulations and the druggings
00:21:33and all the things that we wish we weren't talking about.
00:21:36But unfortunately, in what's going on in this sport, we have to.
00:21:41And Cohen, I'll just say this again.
00:21:44You know, how depressing is it to think that not only is there one trial
00:21:49or hearing going on right now, one that involves doping?
00:21:53And that's the Seth Fishman trial.
00:21:55And another one, I won't use the word doping,
00:21:58but involves the use of medications
00:22:03that were prohibited on race day with Bob Baffert.
00:22:05And the allegations from Naira that he is, quote unquote, a doper, et cetera.
00:22:10It just it just never stops.
00:22:12And it's very depressing.
00:22:14And let's just all hope that someday this game gets its act together.
00:22:18But let's start with the trial of Seth Fishman and Lisa Janelli,
00:22:21which is going on as we speak in a federal courthouse in lower Manhattan.
00:22:25Janelli actually got a mistrial because her lawyer tested positive for covid.
00:22:29So Seth Fishman is going on.
00:22:32You know, we're not seeing a lot of fireworks in this necessarily
00:22:36because, you know, everything that that both sides are saying
00:22:40is stuff that we've already heard.
00:22:42But I thought I hope you guys got a chance to read the Washington Post story
00:22:46that ran the day the trial started last week where they Fishman did an interview
00:22:50with him, and I thought it was such a bunch of garbage.
00:22:53Here's this guy has been accused.
00:22:54And, you know, I say use the word allegedly, but is likely going to be convicted
00:23:00of, you know, doping racehorses.
00:23:02And he made himself out to be this like heroic figure
00:23:05who was just out there to save horses.
00:23:08And he was going to take one for all the vets in the world.
00:23:11And it's not me that's guilty. It's the sport.
00:23:14I don't get it. I don't even get why this guy went to trial.
00:23:17The evidence over him is overwhelming.
00:23:19His legal fees must be through the roof.
00:23:21And at the end of the day, I would be absolutely shocked
00:23:24if he got anything other than convicted and sent off to a long stint in prison.
00:23:29Yeah, I think it was it was a situation where he knew that they had the goods on him.
00:23:35So rather than try to fight the good fight and say, no, I was innocent.
00:23:38It's you know, it's not just me.
00:23:41You know, the sport is corrupt.
00:23:43Our society is corrupt. The world is corrupt.
00:23:46You know, boo hoo. What was me?
00:23:47You know, it was it was one of those kind of like, don't blame me.
00:23:50We should blame the world and society that that we're in.
00:23:53And I'm just a simple pawn in the game of life.
00:23:57Because what else is he going to do?
00:23:58They have them dead to rights on wiretap.
00:24:01And Brian, I still love this quote from you years ago
00:24:05from one of our very first shows about don't these idiots watch the wire?
00:24:09I mean, like, don't they know?
00:24:10Like, like, they're screwed.
00:24:12He's he's in trouble.
00:24:13He's he's he's going down fast.
00:24:15And then he basically he's blaming everyone else except for the man in the mirror,
00:24:20you know, for his troubles.
00:24:21But but yeah, Bill, I think that that overall
00:24:25I question, you know, why what his defense is as far as,
00:24:29you know, why he did this and why not just try to play out of it
00:24:33and get a lesser, you know, a lesser charge.
00:24:36But yeah, he's he's going down in flames.
00:24:40Yeah, I thought Bill's story, I guess, Sunday night,
00:24:44the weekend review was a perfectly succinct
00:24:47just sort of recap of where we are with this case.
00:24:51Doesn't I mean, I guess the one question is, will we get a bombshell?
00:24:54There was some talk of maybe other trainers
00:24:58coming forward that were his his clients.
00:25:02And presumably that's somebody we haven't heard from.
00:25:04It obviously would be kind of surprising if an active trainer stepped forward
00:25:08and said, you know, I bought I bought PDs off this guy.
00:25:12Maybe it'd be a retired trainer or somebody else.
00:25:14But I mean, that's maybe the one bombshell we might get at some point
00:25:17during this trial. Yeah, a couple of points here.
00:25:19First of all, Fishman has hired this really super high profile lawyer,
00:25:26Mark Fenrich Furnish, who of past clients include, of all people,
00:25:30El Chapo and Jeffrey Epstein.
00:25:34And the I was told that this guy charges like you can't even believe
00:25:39the amount of money he charges now.
00:25:41El Chapo, as I mentioned this before, is in jail for the rest of his life.
00:25:44And and Jeffrey Epstein was in prison and hung himself.
00:25:49So I don't know what this lawyer did, but I've got a suggestion.
00:25:52And Seth, if you're listening to the podcast right now,
00:25:55I think you should fire them.
00:25:57Hire Alan Pincus.
00:25:59Alan Pincus will say you doped horses because you were depressed
00:26:02and you'll get 15 days and you'll be back in action before the
00:26:07before the beginning of the Keeneland meet.
00:26:09So but Brian, you're right.
00:26:11The most fascinating thing to come out of this, and it could be absolutely nothing
00:26:15or it could be huge, is that they said they were going to bring in other trainers
00:26:19to say, yes, I bought drugs off this guy.
00:26:21Now, this could be a couple of possibilities.
00:26:23I thought one possibility is there are a couple of trainers
00:26:28that were among the original people indicted and then a new indictment
00:26:33came out and their names just disappeared.
00:26:35So they obviously the government, for some reason, let them go.
00:26:39Maybe it's just those guys are going to come in and testify.
00:26:42And then they're already they're done in racing for the rest of their lives.
00:26:46And they obviously have immunity from the government.
00:26:48But what if, you know, some trainer who would be racing today
00:26:53at Aqueduct that has never been brought up with this comes, comes forward?
00:26:58And we don't know if that's going to happen now, if they did that,
00:27:00the government obviously would promise them they wouldn't prosecute them.
00:27:03But if I'm trainer X and I said on in 2019,
00:27:06I'm trainer X and I said on in 2019, I bought drugs from this guy.
00:27:10Well, then the racing commissions would have to ban the person for life.
00:27:13So, you know, stay tuned to that.
00:27:15It could be very, very interesting.
00:27:17All right. So the other trial going on right now is maybe not fair to call it
00:27:20trials of hearing is what's going on with Bob Baffert and Naira.
00:27:25And I'm going to I have some comments I'm going to say for the end,
00:27:27but it's a little bit like the Fishman trial.
00:27:30It's all the same stuff that we've heard before.
00:27:33And the the polar opposites of the story that's being presented,
00:27:37Naira lawyers get up there and say, this is a bad, bad man.
00:27:41He's basically destroyed horse racing and get rid of him.
00:27:45And then Baffert's lawyers get up there and say he's a great human being.
00:27:49He's a great ambassador. He never really did anything wrong.
00:27:51These were just innocuous overages of nothing drugs.
00:27:55And by the way, Naira is out to get him because the trustees
00:27:59that all own horses are sick of getting beat by this guy.
00:28:02So, you know, one side says he's Darth Vader and the other side says he's Mother
00:28:06Teresa. And now somebody's got to figure out the hearing
00:28:11officer's got to figure out what's going on here, John.
00:28:14Yeah. And basically, I think I think the attorney came out and said Craig
00:28:19Robertson came out and said, you know, by jumping to false conclusions and ignoring
00:28:23the facts, Naira is, you know, on a on a bandwagon smear campaign to hurt
00:28:28my client. My client is the Michael Jordan of the sport.
00:28:31And, you know, and should be revered.
00:28:34And the other side is saying, no, he's the Lance Armstrong of the sport and should be
00:28:38vilified. And basically, you know, there were they said
00:28:43in the press release, there were five undisputed facts
00:28:47that support, you know, why Baffert suspension by Naira should be overturned.
00:28:51And then they listed four.
00:28:52Four, right? Yeah. So right off the bat, their math isn't
00:28:57logical, but that's that's beside the point.
00:28:59But the four points were like, you know, does the gaming commission have jurisdiction
00:29:03to make this decision?
00:29:06And that's a legal question.
00:29:08The board is full of owners and
00:29:12trainers that are tired of getting, you know, losing to Baffert, and that's why they have
00:29:16a vendetta. Well, you know, most boards are
00:29:20comprised of people that understand the industry.
00:29:22You want to have people who are active in the industry and leaders in
00:29:26the industry to govern it.
00:29:28You know, in my estimation, you don't want some outsider to come in who doesn't
00:29:32understand the intricacies of the sport to come in and make major
00:29:36decisions and major rulings. So, you know, the fact that the board is comprised of
00:29:40other owners and people in the know in the business, that's what you want.
00:29:45And I understand where Robertson's coming from, because if it was the opposite, if it
00:29:48was a bunch of Joe Schmoes that didn't know anything about the industry, the argument
00:29:52would be these are a bunch of Joe Schmoes that don't know anything about the industry.
00:29:54They shouldn't be able to govern and make decisions over my client.
00:29:59So, you know, that's a questionable call on that one.
00:30:05They also go on to talk about other legal precedents and other
00:30:09questions. But the bottom, the final one was, you know, Robertson
00:30:14came out and said of the 14 thoroughbred horse trainers in New York State, the top
00:30:1814, nearly all of them have had more medical violations than Bob Baffert.
00:30:23Again, blaming society, the world, you know, America
00:30:28and everything in between.
00:30:29It's not my client who's doing, you know, he's just an innocent pawn.
00:30:32And just because, you know, he's cheating because everyone else is cheating and
00:30:36therefore allegedly and therefore, you know, he shouldn't be the
00:30:40one person that that that is being singled out when the entire sport
00:30:45is full of cheaters and everything like that.
00:30:46Now, that last one, I could see the argument that maybe he shouldn't just
00:30:51be singled out like if the top 14 trainers in New York also
00:30:56have violations for overages that they should be considered
00:31:01for bans and suspensions as well.
00:31:04But don't tell me that just because everyone else is cheating, it's OK for you to.
00:31:10Right. And I agree with you guys, I think the argument that has something to do
00:31:14with who's on the Naira board, I don't know, that doesn't really carry a lot of weight.
00:31:18I looked it up. I think Baffert made 65 starts in New York,
00:31:2262 starts over the past five years.
00:31:26It's not like he's a guy who's I mean, he I think he's won a 35 percent over that
00:31:29time, almost exclusively in graded stakes.
00:31:32It's not like it's a guy. He's a guy who's got three horses in every day at Aqueduct
00:31:36or something. You know, I mean, he might come in for the big races, but he's not
00:31:39like a dominant trainer on the circuit or anything.
00:31:42You know, I think if if, you know, they wanted to get rid of a trainer
00:31:46on the New York circuit, there'd probably be someone that they'd maybe want to get
00:31:49rid of more. So I don't know.
00:31:52That seems like a strange argument to me.
00:31:54I think the best argument that I heard so far from Baffert's lawyers was this idea
00:31:59that it's hard to argue that Baffert's
00:32:03issues have hurt Naira's business when they had record handle at Saratoga
00:32:08this year. You know, you kind of have to prove.
00:32:10Numerically or in some tangible way, how exactly
00:32:15Baffert's violations in other jurisdictions have impacted Naira's business.
00:32:19And I don't know, you know, when you talk about social licensing and this kind of
00:32:23stuff, and I think there's some validity to it maybe, but it's hard to really prove.
00:32:29So I think that's maybe their best argument.
00:32:30And Bill, doesn't it come down to you're the legal eagle out of all of us, but
00:32:34doesn't it come down to like the Naira's of New York as a private entity?
00:32:39And if they want. Yeah, John, that's why I wanted to go last, because
00:32:43this is to me, everything they're arguing doesn't matter.
00:32:47Right. Because and maybe again, you know, I feel like to be an effective
00:32:52turf writer right now in 2022, you can't do it unless you have a law degree.
00:32:57This is ridiculous. But what
00:33:00whether what to me, what this comes down to, what is on trial here is not whether
00:33:04Bob Baffert is a bum or Bob Baffert is being a Naira is has a vendetta against
00:33:09the guy. It's whether or not Naira has the right to ban somebody or to suspend
00:33:15somebody. And now the the courts have largely said that not largely, but have
00:33:21you always said that a private company like a Churchill Downs can ban anybody
00:33:26and really doesn't have to have a reason.
00:33:28Best example is Jeff Gorel at the Meadowlands, who has just thrown out people
00:33:32left and right. And his explanation was, well, you just threw out Trainer X.
00:33:37He's never been caught with anything in his life.
00:33:39Gorel will tell you the guy cheats.
00:33:41I'm not stupid. He's thrown out.
00:33:44So what on what is on trial here is whether or not to me, whether or not Naira
00:33:49as a quasi state organization follows the same can go the same path as a private
00:33:57entity. Now, if you remember, this was argued in a federal court beforehand and
00:34:02the judge there said they can't throw them out without due process, but then give
00:34:07them due process and do what you want.
00:34:09So to me, this is a dog and pony show.
00:34:11They're giving them the quote unquote due process.
00:34:14The judge is, you know, I don't know if he's in the tank or not, in the bag or
00:34:18not. It would probably be unfair of me to accuse him of being that.
00:34:22But that's what's on trial here.
00:34:23And I believe at the end of the day, Naira doesn't need a reason to throw Bob
00:34:28Baffert out and they can throw him out because they they they're offended by his
00:34:33white hair. Literally.
00:34:34I mean, you know that it's so glaring that it gets in everybody's eyes and you've
00:34:41got to go. So, again, that that's my take on it.
00:34:44But we will see.
00:34:45And we also have more hearings coming up, one of which we're going to get to later
00:34:50on the show, as Naira is getting involved is, again, like so many other people in
00:34:56racing and groups. It's all about the trials and the and the tribulations right
00:35:00now. XB TV, boy, is this a good week to watch XB TV because you can pick up the
00:35:06life is good workout and that is the official workout of the week.
00:35:10Life is good, of course, going in the Pegasus on Saturday at Gulfstream and the
00:35:15TDN Writers Room is brought to you by XB TV, handicap and watch the live races like
00:35:20never before. XB TV has exclusive handicapping insight and analysis, picks
00:35:24morning workouts, interviews and race replays.
00:35:28So it is the definitely the place to go.
00:35:31And the workout of the week, this week's workout of the week is Life is Good, who
00:35:34worked on Saturday at Palm Beach Downs, going five furlongs in one minute and point
00:35:39nine. Oh, or a minute and four fifths ahead of his start in the Pegasus World Cup.
00:35:44You can check out all his workouts at Palm Beach Downs over the past few months at
00:35:48XB TV.
00:35:50Did did either of you get to watch that workout?
00:35:53And what did you think? Yeah, I mean, he is poetry in motion.
00:35:57Life is good is just the kind of horse where you stop what you're doing.
00:36:01If you're if you're eating or if you're watching other horses or you're talking to
00:36:05somebody and you see life is good, go by.
00:36:08You actually I actually hold my breath because it's just it's like what I want.
00:36:14That's the one I want in my stable.
00:36:16Is he running for a claiming tag?
00:36:17Because that's that's exactly what you what you want when you see a, you know, a
00:36:22really top notch racehorse, Brian.
00:36:25Yeah, he's a monster.
00:36:26I mean, we'd all like one like him.
00:36:28Maybe we should put a group together, John.
00:36:30We can maybe make an offer.
00:36:31I wonder what that would be.
00:36:34We'll be right back after these messages.
00:36:55Here in Pennsylvania, we're proud of our breeding program, the best in North America.
00:37:00But we're also proud to be leaders in this industry.
00:37:03The PA Horse Breeders Association is funding cutting edge research at Penn Vet into equine
00:37:08health and safety.
00:37:09And we endorse the SAFE Act to help protect the health and safety of our horse breeders.
00:37:13And we're proud to be a leader in this industry.
00:37:16The PA Horse Breeders Association is funding cutting edge research at Penn Vet into equine
00:37:21health and safety.
00:37:22And we endorse the SAFE Act to help protect the most vulnerable horses.
00:37:26Plus, we're pleased to support the aftercare programs set up by our horseman's groups.
00:37:31Just a few of the reasons why you should join us in Pennsylvania, the premier place to
00:37:36breed and race.
00:37:38And this week, our sponsors include the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association.
00:37:42And over the last nine years, the PHBA breeding fund has distributed an average of 28
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00:37:51Pennsylvania bred program offers benefits to both owners and breeders.
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00:38:01Plus, this year, the program will offer 19 $100,000 stakes and four $200,000 stakes just
00:38:08for PA breds. You can learn more at PA bred dot com.
00:38:12John, if you're looking to put a Pennsylvania bred into your stable, tell us how that can
00:38:17be done over the next couple of months.
00:38:19Well, the nice thing about it, Bill, is, you know, Pennsylvania, as you mentioned, has
00:38:22such a robust year round racing program with the added benefits of having a Pennsylvania
00:38:28bred. And I was really impressed to see when I looked at the upcoming Fasig sale that
00:38:34there were nine Pennsylvania breds that are that are short yearlings, including and
00:38:39listen to the Sire Power, Frosted, Nyquist, Vino Rosso, Street Sense and Mendelssohn.
00:38:46I mean, those are legitimate, legitimate studs that that these horses have, you know, are
00:38:53buying and they're eligible for all the Pennsylvania bred program and benefits.
00:38:58So, you know, to me, it would be shocking not to buy a Pennsylvania bred at the
00:39:02upcoming sale. The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group, an
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00:39:20Very pleased to welcome in this week's Green Group guest of the week, Mike Mulvihill, who
00:39:25is with Fox Sports.
00:39:27He's the executive vice president and the head of strategy and analytics.
00:39:32Mike, we're bringing you in today to talk about a lot of things.
00:39:34But the big news was broke a couple of weeks ago was Fox's agreement with Naira from
00:39:402023 to 2030 to become the new broadcast partner for the Belmont Stakes.
00:39:46Beyond the obvious that it's a great race and a great sporting event.
00:39:50Why did Fox and your team want to get involved with this?
00:39:54Well, there are a couple of reasons, and first of all, thank you for having me on the
00:39:58show, really excited to be with you and excited about our participation in horse
00:40:04racing. Really, there were two primary motivations behind the deal for the Belmont
00:40:10Stakes. One is that fundamentally Fox Sports is just in the business of premium live
00:40:16events. We want to be in the business of championship events, special events, whether
00:40:22that's the Super Bowl, the World Series, the Belmont Stakes and anything else that's out
00:40:26there. We pride ourselves on being the leaders in live sports event consumption.
00:40:33There's obviously a lot of sports programming that's not live event, your sports
00:40:37centers and undisputed Colin Coward show.
00:40:40But really, the foundation of what we do is in the live events and the live event viewing.
00:40:46So anytime something comes along that could be considered a premium event, a
00:40:50championship event, something that's known to not just hardcore fans, but every casual
00:40:56American sports fan, that's always going to be something that's attractive to us.
00:41:00And the Belmont Stakes is obviously in that category where it's known not just to
00:41:05people who play the races every week, but it's something that every casual sports fan is
00:41:10familiar with. They know it's where the immortals of the sport are crowned and
00:41:15determined. And that makes it fit really naturally with what we perceive as our brand.
00:41:20So that's just the television programming part of it.
00:41:23And then separate but related, we're obviously getting more and more into the gaming
00:41:28business all the time.
00:41:30I like to say that we are evolving from being strictly a media content brand into being a
00:41:36media and gaming brand that has a lot to do with the recent legalization of sports
00:41:42betting. But it also has to do with the partnership that we have with Naira in Naira
00:41:47Bets. And for us to be able to take on the TV rights to the Belmont Stakes, not only is
00:41:53that a championship event in and of itself, but it becomes an opportunity for us to
00:41:58really promote and try to drive new business and drive signups and new accounts for
00:42:04that Naira Bets business.
00:42:05So it really works both as media content, which is the business we've always been in, and
00:42:11it works as an engine for our gaming business, which is a newer business for us.
00:42:16And Mike, one of the one of the rumors that we've heard also that's been bantied about on
00:42:20social media is that now that you guys are behind and involved with Naira Bets, that
00:42:26maybe this is a precursor to New York having the Breeders' Cup again and having the
00:42:32two-day event, the 14 championship races, come back to New York.
00:42:36What would that mean?
00:42:37You don't tell us the secret sauce if you guys are interested or not, but what would that
00:42:40mean if the Breeders' Cup did end up in New York for Fox Sports?
00:42:46Well, I think it would be great for Naira Bets, right?
00:42:49And it would obviously be a feather in the cap of Naira to host an event of global
00:42:54significance. Again, I will tell you candidly that we're very, very committed to college
00:43:00football at that time of year.
00:43:03And it really would be challenging for us to ever become the new television partner of the
00:43:08Breeders' Cup, which is unfortunate because it's a magnificent event.
00:43:13I love going just as a fan.
00:43:15It's a great property for any media company to have, but it would be really challenging
00:43:20for us to find a way to make that work.
00:43:23Well, Mike, sort of on the same subject that John brought it up.
00:43:26So now there's the four biggest events in horse racing are obviously the three Triple
00:43:30Crown races and the Breeders' Cup.
00:43:32So you now have one of four.
00:43:33You kind of just told us that maybe the Breeders' Cup is not necessarily in the cards.
00:43:37And I don't know if there's any kind of things that prohibit you from talking about an
00:43:41event that's covered by another network or not.
00:43:44I'm not a TV guy.
00:43:44I'm not really privy to that.
00:43:46But how about the other two Triple Crown races?
00:43:51Well, I think you alluded to my answer, which is that it's a little bit out of bounds for
00:43:56me to speak with a lot of specificity about properties that are currently under contract
00:44:02to another company.
00:44:04But I can tell you more broadly that, as I said before, we very much consider ourselves
00:44:09to be in the business of championship events.
00:44:12We want to take seriously any opportunity that might arise to add something that's
00:44:18premium and special.
00:44:19So while I can't really talk about the other two legs of Triple Crown specifically, I
00:44:24think certainly they are two of many events that we would consider attractive to be part
00:44:30of our portfolio.
00:44:32And obviously, a lot of other companies would consider them attractive as well.
00:44:37Now, that's a great answer, Mike, and we appreciate that greatly.
00:44:41In advance of this interview, I watched an interview that you did with Joe Buck last
00:44:47year before the NFL schedule was open for the public.
00:44:51And you said, we submit a wish list to the NFL with the hopes and dreams of getting some
00:44:58of these premier games.
00:44:59What's your wish list as far as the Belmont for this upcoming season?
00:45:06Well, and remember, for us, the deal kicks in in 2023.
00:45:10So it's a wish list that we have some time to think about, right?
00:45:15Look, the first and foremost thing, the obvious answer is that we would love to have a
00:45:19horse come to the Belmont with a chance to win the Triple Crown.
00:45:22I mean, that's what every racing fan hopes for.
00:45:25That's what NBC has hoped for for a lot of years.
00:45:28And that would be at the top of our wish list as well.
00:45:31But beyond that, I think we want to see interest in racing continue to grow over these
00:45:38next 18 months before we get a chance to do the Belmont.
00:45:43The most important metric, I think, would be national handle.
00:45:46We had a great year in handle in 2021.
00:45:49We'd like to see that trend continue.
00:45:52I think we would like to see what every racing fan wants to see.
00:45:57We want to see big fields, big competitive fields in the biggest races.
00:46:01We want to see the horses and the riders get around the track healthy in the biggest
00:46:08races. We want to see the races run with competitive integrity.
00:46:13We want to make sure that all the rules surrounding medication are being followed and
00:46:19that the public has every confidence that the races are being run at the highest
00:46:26possible levels of integrity.
00:46:28So it's all that. You'd love to have a horse come in with a chance to sweep the Triple
00:46:32Crown. But I think those other things are really important, too.
00:46:35I think that the game is making great strides in the area of integrity and public
00:46:40confidence. I think the wagering trends are really strong.
00:46:44I think the positioning of the sport as being something that's a fantastic, just giant
00:46:50outdoor party that 80,000 people can participate in or 150,000 people on a Derby
00:46:56Day, I think that's really resonating with people.
00:46:58And we just want to see those trends continue in the months leading up to us taking
00:47:02over the Belmont.
00:47:04Now, Mike, you've spoken a lot about Fox and Fox bets, and part of this is not just to
00:47:09have a great sporting event, but the whole gaming world and moving forward with that.
00:47:14So when you have the broadcast of 2023s, particularly if a horse is going for the Triple
00:47:19Crown, John and I are going to be watching it.
00:47:21We are diehard racing fans.
00:47:24We're bettors. We know the ins and out of the sport.
00:47:27And frankly, we don't care about the story about the girl in the pretty dress coming
00:47:33out and the 20 somethings and all that.
00:47:37But at the same time, my aunt Gladys is also going to watch it, doesn't know anything
00:47:40about horse racing and wants to know about some of the fluffy stories would appeal to
00:47:45her. So how do you walk that fine line?
00:47:49Well, I like to think we can do both, and I think a template has been provided for us
00:47:55by ESPN and their presentation of Monday Night Football this year, where they have the
00:48:00traditional presentation on ESPN and then they're doing the Manning cast on ESPN, too.
00:48:06And that's getting a significant percentage of the audience.
00:48:08It's doing really well.
00:48:10It's worked out very, very well for them.
00:48:12I think we have an opportunity to do something similar where we can do a traditional
00:48:16presentation of the Belmont on Fox broadcast and we can provide an alternate
00:48:22presentation for some part of the day on our cable platform and tailor that really to
00:48:29people that are more regular players and that maybe aren't as interested in the
00:48:34lifestyle pieces and they really want to dive deep into the handicapping.
00:48:37And I think we have a chance to do that side by side.
00:48:40We're still sort of exploring and figuring out exactly what that might look like.
00:48:45But I want to believe that by the time we get to June of 2023, we'll get that
00:48:49presentation that people are accustomed to for a Triple Crown race, where it's not just
00:48:54the horse race, but it's also the social event, the cocktails, the fashion, everything
00:48:59that makes it as much fun as it is.
00:49:01And then I think we can also do a presentation for people that use the sheets and
00:49:08our sheets players, or they really want to dive into workout patterns and trainer
00:49:12patterns and things that aren't necessarily going to totally connect for the big
00:49:17audience on the big network, but for that smaller audience of people that are really
00:49:22playing it seriously and are going to put a significant amount of money through the
00:49:25windows or hopefully through their Naira Bets account on that day, we can do something
00:49:29that's targeted specifically for them, too.
00:49:33Yeah, and Mike, please, please let Bill's question just be singular to Bill.
00:49:38Bill's a curmudgeon.
00:49:39He just wants to watch the races.
00:49:40The rest of us like the lifestyles and especially when we own a horse in the race, we
00:49:44want people to ask us questions about who we're wearing and why we're there.
00:49:48So so don't don't let don't let curmudgeon Bill sway the way that Fox Sports does
00:49:52things. We'll have we'll have the fashion questions ready for you when that day comes
00:49:56around. All right.
00:49:58John, I'll watch the gambling channel.
00:50:00How about that? Exactly, exactly.
00:50:03Mike, one more final question for me.
00:50:04And that is, you know, just in your answers, it's obvious that you know a lot about the
00:50:08industry. You mentioned a lot of buzzwords, you know, about the sheets and about
00:50:12workout tabs and things like that.
00:50:13Were you very interested in horse racing and that's why you got the position?
00:50:19Or did they hand select you and all of a sudden you had to have a crash course in the
00:50:22industry? Well, it's really generous of you to say that I know anything about horse
00:50:27racing. I think that the longer that I've been a fan of the game, the less I feel that
00:50:31I know anything about it.
00:50:33It's so challenging, as you guys know, and I have been interested in it for many
00:50:40years. My brother works in racing.
00:50:42He sort of I got him involved and then he took that interest much further than I ever
00:50:47did. He's actually worked in racing publicity for a lot of years.
00:50:51So, you know, my interest in racing predates our association with Naira by a lot of
00:50:58years. And it was really just serendipity that five years ago, five and a half years
00:51:03ago, Tony Alvarado from Naira came into my office looking for a little bit of
00:51:09assistance in getting some Naira races placed on a regional sports network.
00:51:14And because I have the interest in the game that I do and specifically I love Saratoga
00:51:19so much, I took his idea and turned it into why don't we try to do something nationally
00:51:24and really build it around Saratoga?
00:51:26And that was really the birth of of our relationship with Naira.
00:51:29And we just found ways to make it bigger and bigger ever since.
00:51:32So I have a very longstanding interest in the game.
00:51:35As I say, my brother has made a career out of it.
00:51:38It's really unfortunate that that interest doesn't necessarily translate into a lot of
00:51:42winning tickets. But we're but we're happy to to have placed a winning bet on the
00:51:47Belmont. We'll take that instead of instead of winning wagers, I guess.
00:51:52Hey, Mike, some people will tell you that sports betting, the legalization of sports
00:51:55betting across the country is the worst thing that ever happened to horse racing because
00:51:59it's so much competition.
00:52:01That's good. You know, might cannibalize the horse racing market.
00:52:04And some people might say it's one of the best things that ever happened because of
00:52:07horse racing can piggyback off of sports wagering.
00:52:10It's going to be a good thing.
00:52:12Now, in order for that to happen, the conventional wisdom is that we have to go to
00:52:16fixed odds wagering.
00:52:17For instance, now, if on Saturday I want to bet on the Rams, I have to go to Fox bets.
00:52:23If I want to bet on the sixth John Green's horse in the sixth race at Aqueduct, I have
00:52:26to go to Naira bets.
00:52:28How do you see this working out down the road and what would be the best scenario not
00:52:32only for racing, but for, you know, the the ADW and bet taking websites so that
00:52:39everybody is happy at the end of day and horse racing can latch on to the sports betting
00:52:45market? That's a lot to respond to, so I'll try to take it in parts, you know, I am a
00:52:52believer that the legalization of sports betting is a positive for horse racing.
00:52:58And primarily the reason I believe that is that I think we're already seeing a
00:53:03normalization of the activity of wagering and there's a very fine line for us to walk
00:53:10there. You know, I think we want to encourage people to see it as an activity that can
00:53:15enhance the experience of sports fandom.
00:53:18It can make a game or race a lot more engaging if you have a small amount of money on
00:53:24it. But we also want to encourage, obviously, responsibility in that activity.
00:53:30So I think all of us who are invested in this have an opportunity to mainstream the
00:53:35activity of betting, but mainstream it also with an obvious eye toward making sure that
00:53:42we're encouraging people to approach it with responsibility.
00:53:45And I think that mainstreaming is really going to elevate horse racing and we're seeing
00:53:49it already. I mean, certainly there's nothing in the handle figures over the last couple
00:53:54years since the overturning of PASPA that would suggest to you that legalized sports
00:54:00betting is hurting interest in horse racing in any way.
00:54:03I mean, the early evidence seems to be quite the contrary.
00:54:06And then I think, you know, I don't know that I'm necessarily the most well-informed
00:54:11person on that topic of what the future of the wagering experience looks like.
00:54:16I mean, you're right that horse racing and sports betting are currently kind of coexisting
00:54:22on parallel tracks. And it seems logical that eventually that will become a more seamless
00:54:27experience. Right now we've got our FoxBet brand and we've got our Naira Bets brand in
00:54:32which we're only a minority partner.
00:54:34And you would think that eventually you want those to be one experience.
00:54:38It doesn't make that much sense for that to be two separate brands and two separate
00:54:41experiences, two separate experiences.
00:54:44But I think it's going to take some time and we have some some issues to work through
00:54:48before we can make that a more seamless experience for the user.
00:54:52But clearly, I think that's where we would all expect things to be.
00:54:55Mike, I got one more question before we let you go.
00:54:57And I'm going to give you a chance to pat yourself on the back.
00:55:00You and I are pat yourselves on the back a little bit here.
00:55:03The handle figures for the sport have been very good over the last couple of years.
00:55:06But Naira in particularly, the handle figures have been exceptional.
00:55:10And it does seem to coincide with the broadcast on Fox, America's Day of the Races and
00:55:15Saratoga Live.
00:55:17So the question is, how much is the added TV coverage adding
00:55:23to the popularity of the brand and to the amount of wagering on it?
00:55:27Now, I mean, to answer that in any kind of specific numbers is obviously impossible.
00:55:31But I mean, you would probably understand this as well as anybody else.
00:55:35How much do you think this television exposure is improving Naira's business
00:55:40line, their bottom line?
00:55:43Well, you know, my answer to that question is in no way objective.
00:55:47Right. I have obviously the most biased opinion that a person can have.
00:55:51But clearly, I do believe that the daily television coverage has made a big difference.
00:55:56And if you look just at Saratoga specifically, you know, not only did Saratoga break
00:56:01a handle record for the meet in 2021, it broke that record by a hundred million
00:56:07dollars. I mean, it broke it by just an absolutely enormous amount.
00:56:10And not that much has changed.
00:56:13Clearly, a lot has changed since 2020, but not that much has changed since 2019 or
00:56:182018. What's really changed in the last five years is that we're there with a
00:56:23tremendous crew and great on-camera talent covering those races for five hours a
00:56:28day every day. And I think it's made a big impact.
00:56:31And you're right. I think, you know, the jewel events of the sport across the board
00:56:35have really positive handle trends, whether it's the Breeders' Cup or the Del Mar
00:56:40meet, the Keeneland meet, the Triple Crown events.
00:56:42But I do think Naira is sort of in a category of its own in having a really accelerated
00:56:47growth trend. And I like to think that our coverage has a lot to do with it.
00:56:51And I'll go a step further with that, actually, because we now have this legalization
00:56:55of sports betting. Every league and every media company is sort of struggling with
00:57:00this idea of how are we going to integrate wagering into our presentation of sports
00:57:06going forward? How do we make that work?
00:57:08And I actually think that the template for all of sports lives inside horse racing
00:57:14right now. I mean, in horse racing, we're very comfortable with the idea of wagering
00:57:19conversation and coverage of the event just as a sports event, living side by side.
00:57:25It happens in the Triple Crown.
00:57:26We do it every day on America's Day at the races.
00:57:30And I think what you see in horse racing is what all of sports coverage is going to look
00:57:34like 10 or 20 years from now, where coverage of the event just encompasses discussion of
00:57:40the wagering. Yeah, the only thing I would say, Mike, is the $100 million handle
00:57:44increase. You know, Andy Serling is taking full credit for that on his own.
00:57:47I mean, he said, you know, the more that you put him out to the audience, the more
00:57:50likely it is people are going to bet.
00:57:51So he's probably personally putting 10 percent of that through the windows on his own.
00:57:55So he has a right to pay them too much.
00:58:00Well, Mike, thanks so much for joining us on the Green Group Guest of the Week here on
00:58:03the TDN Writers Room podcast.
00:58:05Terrific news that Fox is so involved in horse racing and and exposing it to the masses as
00:58:10it is. And we'll catch up with you again soon.
00:58:13Thank you. It's a blast for us.
00:58:14It's great for our company.
00:58:15We love being involved and I hope we can do a lot more.
00:58:18Hope we can do this again soon.
00:58:19Thank you, Mike. The Green Group Guest of the Week is sponsored by the Green Group, an
00:58:23accounting and tax consulting advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:58:27This week's guest, Mike Mulvihill, will receive a free one hour tax consultation.
00:58:32Learn more at www.greenco.com.
00:58:35We'll be right back after this message from the Green Group.
00:58:38Why do the most successful owners, breeders and horsemen select the Green Group as their
00:58:41tax advisor? We simply save them money and know how to make them more successful.
00:58:45Over the past 40 years, founder Leonard Green has owned and bred some of the best race
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00:59:59Well, in the news for West Point over the last week, West Point has a three-year-old
01:00:03on the derby trail this year with Great Game, who was third in the Breeders' Cup
01:00:07Juvenile, is now pointing towards the Holy Bull next weekend.
01:00:10This week, he was ranked sixth on TD Thornton's TDN Derby Top 12.
01:00:14This weekend, West Point will have a stakes winner county final running in the Stonerside
01:00:19Sprint Stakes at Sam Houston with Steve Asmussen.
01:00:22And West Point is, of course, one of the co-owners of the very, very, very, very exciting flight
01:00:29line, who John Sadler, the trainer, says will likely run next in March, but has not yet
01:00:34said which race he is going to run in.
01:00:39So let's turn our attention now to another guy who is a miscreant.
01:00:43Is that a good word to use?
01:00:45I think that's probably pretty accurate.
01:00:48Wayne Potts, and we've talked about him on the show before.
01:00:52He's had a lot of problems, including an incident where he was thrown out the Maryland
01:00:58Jockey Club tracks that alleged that he was a paper trainer for Marcus Vitale.
01:01:03He's been one of those guys who it doesn't seem like he can get through a year without
01:01:09some sort of scandal.
01:01:10And the latest thing that happened was last week, the New Jersey rulings were released
01:01:17and it was found that Potts was suspended 30 days by the Monmouth Racing officials after
01:01:23he ran a horse in a claiming race and the track vet told him, ordered him to put the
01:01:29horse on the van, the horse off the track, and he refused to do so.
01:01:33Now, they gave him 30 days in New Jersey, so he will miss the first 30 days of the Monmouth
01:01:39meet.
01:01:40But what is even more relevant is that Potts has been racing in New York.
01:01:44And again, this kind of ties back to the Baffert situation a little bit.
01:01:48You look at somebody like Wayne Potts who has had a lot of problems and Baffert's lawyers
01:01:52could bring up, well, why are you picking on my guy when Wayne Potts or fill in the
01:01:58blanks has done all these sort of things?
01:02:00So what's going on here is that now Naira looks like Wayne Potts is going to get the
01:02:05Bob Baffert treatment.
01:02:06And this is a statement from Pat McKenna that he put out about Wayne Potts.
01:02:11He is the spokesman for the New York Racing Association.
01:02:14As in just the last five months, Wayne Potts has been suspended by both the New York State
01:02:17Gaming Commission and the New York, excuse me, New Jersey Racing Commission due to conduct
01:02:21in direct violation of the rules of racing.
01:02:23Most recently, Mr. Potts has proven to have jeopardized the health and safety of a horse
01:02:26by refusing to allow the horse to enter an equine ambulance as directed by a regulatory
01:02:30veterinarian.
01:02:31This is a particularly egregious breach of his fundamental responsibility as a trainer
01:02:35to ensure the well-being of horses under his care.
01:02:37Naira has afforded Mr. Potts the privilege of stabling racing at our venues, but this
01:02:41pattern of conduct calls into question whether he should continue to enjoy that privilege.
01:02:45Naira is guaranteeing the necessary facts to support a statement of charges and a formal
01:02:49administrative hearing to potentially suspend Mr. Potts from participating in racing at
01:02:53Aqueduct Racetrack Belmont in Saratoga.
01:02:55In the near term, Naira is determining immediate actions, immediate options, such as revoking
01:02:59a stall allotment at Belmont.
01:03:01John, you know, this is the type of thing that, you know, we've talked about over the
01:03:05years and, you know, maybe racing is moving a little bit in the right direction.
01:03:10But I think Wayne Potts is one of those ones where you can, you know, bring up the
01:03:14question, you know, it's not three strikes and you're out.
01:03:18It's nine, ten strikes and you're still not out.
01:03:22And, you know, racing definitely has a history of, you know, kind of a slap on the wrist
01:03:26type of thing.
01:03:27So, you know, what do you think of what Wayne Potts has been allegedly done?
01:03:32And what do you think should happen to him going forward?
01:03:34Well, Bill, you're a thousand percent correct, because it's not just a one-off, two-off,
01:03:38three-off, nine-off, ten-off.
01:03:40According to thoroughbredregulatoryrulings.com, he's had over 90 violations, over 90
01:03:47violations in seven different states.
01:03:51So this isn't a, oops, you know, sorry, my dog ate my homework.
01:03:55I'll do better next time.
01:03:56This is a recurring pattern.
01:03:58Again, some of them are administrative.
01:04:00Some of them are not getting the jockey club papers in on time or, you know, or
01:04:03notifying the racing commission that a horse was gelded.
01:04:07But the majority of the indiscretions are medication ruling or just flaunting and
01:04:15saying, to hell with you, you know, about the rules.
01:04:18I mean, here's a guy who, you know, basically paid another trainer to claim a
01:04:23horse in a race for one of his owners, and then the horse was transferred to his
01:04:27barn three or four days later.
01:04:29That was a $2,000 fine and a violation in the state.
01:04:34And then what's most egregious to me is that he basically committed animal
01:04:41cruelty because a horse that he ran in a claiming race was claimed.
01:04:45He was hoping the horse was going to get claimed.
01:04:47And even though the state vet told the groom, you need to put this horse on the
01:04:52van in order to get it back to the stabling area, that's in the barn area.
01:04:57That's how badly off the horse was.
01:05:00He then overruled the vet and told his groom, don't put that horse on the van.
01:05:07And it wasn't because he thought the horse was sound enough to walk to the
01:05:10backstretch.
01:05:11It was because he knew the rule.
01:05:12He knew that if that horse stepped foot on that van and got assistance back to
01:05:16the barn area, that the claim would automatically be voided.
01:05:20And to me, if that doesn't smack of animal cruelty and just total disregard for
01:05:26the horses that you have in your barn, then I don't know what does.
01:05:29But here's a guy who repeatedly in multiple states has had violation after
01:05:35violation and has been sanctioned by commission after commission.
01:05:38And yet, it's like Groundhog Day, new day dawns, and he's running horses again.
01:05:43And to me, we all beat up on Bob Baffert because he is the face and the lightning
01:05:50rod of the industry.
01:05:51But it's crappy trainers like this guy who basically doesn't care one iota about
01:05:57the horses in his barn unless they can earn him money.
01:05:59And as soon as they can't earn him money, they're kicked to the curb and he's on
01:06:03to the next one.
01:06:04And to me, those are the kind of trainers that we need to rid our industry of
01:06:08because they just laugh whenever they get fined.
01:06:11Oh, I'll take it out of the winnings.
01:06:12No big deal.
01:06:13$500 fine?
01:06:14Big deal.
01:06:15$2,000 fine?
01:06:16Here, you want it in 10s or 20s?
01:06:17I mean, that's what happens with a lot of these guys once they get to a certain
01:06:20level.
01:06:21And these are the guys that are the pieces of crap that keep floating from one
01:06:26state to the other.
01:06:27Brian, before I go to you, let me jump in with John.
01:06:30So we don't know what New York is going to do yet.
01:06:32It seems like they're taking this very seriously.
01:06:34And just like when we started with Michael Sanchez, are you okay with this
01:06:39incident resulting in a 30-day suspension in New Jersey?
01:06:43He's going to miss the first month, as things stand now, miss the first month
01:06:47of the meet.
01:06:48And then at least in New Jersey, it looks like it'll be business as usual.
01:06:51Yeah.
01:06:52And, again, that's the inconsistency that we have from one jurisdiction to the
01:06:56other, another reason why we need to have a centralized set of rules.
01:06:59And, Bill, you mentioned Mammoth.
01:07:02And not that I want Mammoth to be the whippin' boy here, but, man, they were
01:07:06the safe haven for Jason Service and for the juice man, Jorge Navarro.
01:07:11And they not only were a safe haven for Wayne Potts last year, when he became
01:07:16leading trainer, I remember very distinctly, they put out a huge press
01:07:20release about how proud they were of Wayne Potts and his record and the fact
01:07:24that he's a rags to riches guy and he's the guy that we should all rally behind.
01:07:28And Mammoth Park couldn't be prouder.
01:07:30And the reason why I remember it so well is because I actually texted it to Joe
01:07:34and said, this isn't going to age well.
01:07:37Right.
01:07:39Ryan?
01:07:40It kind of reminds me of like the Rick Dutrow saga.
01:07:43I mean, he was banned for 10 years, kind of for, I think, a lot of just
01:07:48infractions adding up, maybe similar to some of the stuff that Potts, you know,
01:07:53not exactly the same, but kind of the same idea, just a habitual rule breaker.
01:07:59Obviously, Dutrow was probably a little higher profile trainer of the two, but
01:08:03it's kind of the same idea.
01:08:04I mean, maybe Naira is too busy with all the Baffert stuff to, you know, focus
01:08:09all their attention on Potts and kind of go for a similar banishment.
01:08:14But, you know, you do kind of wonder if at a certain point you can only give a
01:08:18guy so many chances and, you know, all indications are he's kind of outworn as
01:08:23welcome.
01:08:24Yeah.
01:08:25And, you know, I think it's very significant what's going on with Naira here.
01:08:28You know, okay, everybody deserves their day in court, but they already have
01:08:33taken action to try to ban two trainers, Baffert and Marcus Vitale.
01:08:37Let's not forget about him.
01:08:38And now if they go ahead with this with Potts, that will be free.
01:08:41You know, this is the same racing organization that I don't really recall
01:08:45them banning anybody for anything over many, many years.
01:08:49So at the very least, you know, I think they deserve some kudos for, you know,
01:08:55realizing that there's a problem here and that they need to be proactive about
01:08:59it.
01:09:00And so that is the case.
01:09:01All right.
01:09:02So enough with the all the bad stories.
01:09:05Let's turn to the racetrack back again.
01:09:07It was an interesting weekend of racing last week, primarily at the fairgrounds
01:09:10where they ran one of their big Saturday cards with, you know, chalked up with
01:09:15state race.
01:09:16You had the silver bullet day for three-year-old Phillies.
01:09:18You had the LeCompte for three-year-old Colts and a really good race.
01:09:24Just a grade three, the Louisiana stakes, but it featured a rematch for, I think,
01:09:28the fifth time between Mandaloon and Midnight Bourbon with Mandaloon coming
01:09:33out on top.
01:09:34John, we'll start with you.
01:09:35What were you thought was some of the highlights of last week at fairgrounds?
01:09:37Well, you nailed it, Bill.
01:09:38I mean, to me, even though there was an Oaks prep and a Derby prep and there were points
01:09:42that were being allotted and won, you know, by hitting the board in those respective
01:09:46races, the race of the weekend was the Louisiana stake.
01:09:50And again, another match race.
01:09:51We talked about the match race coming up this week with Nixco and Life is Good.
01:09:55I think you could make a case that, you know, Midnight Bourbon and Mandaloon were
01:10:00just as much of a match race as we expect the Pegasus to be this weekend.
01:10:05And Bill, you're right.
01:10:06I actually counted it up.
01:10:07The Mandaloon and Midnight Bourbon have faced each other six times.
01:10:10Six times.
01:10:11You know, which is really a lot when you think about, you know, Midnight Bourbon
01:10:15has run 13 times and Mandaloon has only run eight.
01:10:18Well, now nine and 14.
01:10:19Nine and 14 times.
01:10:20So in Mandaloon's, you know, brief career of nine starts, six of them have been
01:10:25in the same gate as Midnight Bourbon.
01:10:28And I'm sure when they see each other, they're just like, dude, we're running
01:10:31again.
01:10:32Yeah.
01:10:33All right.
01:10:34We'll see.
01:10:35But it was really an exciting race.
01:10:37And almost from the get-go, you know, they opened up on the rest of the field
01:10:42and just kept right on going.
01:10:44Midnight Bourbon was adding Lasix and Blinkers for the first time.
01:10:47So it wasn't a surprise that he went right to the front and slowed it down
01:10:50in 24-1 and 48.
01:10:52Mandaloon, you know, it was his first start since winning the Haskell.
01:10:56Since winning.
01:10:57You know, I guess he got kissed up for the win.
01:10:59But that was back in mid-July.
01:11:01So he really had some rust to kind of knock off.
01:11:04And he sat off the speed.
01:11:05They went toe-to-toe like two great racehorses were.
01:11:09And they both ran, you know, near lifetime best numbers depending on what
01:11:15metric you're using.
01:11:17But to me, the Louisiana stake was far and away better than the Silver Bullet
01:11:23day, you know, where the horse LaCrete won in her second start and ran a 74
01:11:29by her.
01:11:31And I believe, Brian, in the LeCamp, you know, there was a lot of speed in
01:11:35the race.
01:11:36And they just kind of beat each other up.
01:11:37And then Epicenter just, you know, got tired.
01:11:40And the winner, call me midnight, just kind of came out from the sky because
01:11:44the first two horses just knocked the crap out of each other.
01:11:48Yeah, I mean, I really like Epicenter coming out of the LeCamp.
01:11:50I thought he ran great.
01:11:52You know, did all the dirty work early.
01:11:54Just kind of got run down.
01:11:56You know, the other horse used the entirety of that long fairground stretch
01:11:59just to grab him at the last second.
01:12:01Epicenter still galloped out in front, has good form overall.
01:12:05He's kind of this year's Midnight Bourbon.
01:12:07I think this time in their career, probably look at their PPs.
01:12:10They're probably a little bit similar.
01:12:12So he's kind of the horse I want going forward in that, you know,
01:12:15derby type horses.
01:12:17So he's kind of the one that caught my eye over the weekend.
01:12:21Yeah, I mean, a couple other things I'd add to it.
01:12:24And both Mandaloon and Midnight Bourbon look like they're going on to the
01:12:26Saudi Cup.
01:12:27So they'll be in the same starting gate again halfway across the world.
01:12:31Even though she only got a 74 buyer, I like LeCrete just because, you know,
01:12:35you've got the fact that she's a half to LeClerier in the Asmussen barn.
01:12:39I think we're probably going to see bigger and better things from her.
01:12:42And I thought one of the main stories in LeCamp was that Papa Cap,
01:12:45well, he was third, correct?
01:12:47You know, I don't think the connections in Marcassi can be too pleased with
01:12:51that.
01:12:52But long way to go before we get to the Kentucky Derby or the Kentucky Oaks.
01:12:55So we'll see what happens with those horses going down the road.
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01:14:08Well, that's a wrap for this week's TDN Writer's Room Podcast.
01:14:11I'm Bill Finley.
01:14:12I filled in this week for Joe Bianca.
01:14:13He'll be back next week.
01:14:15We want to thank John Green.
01:14:16And it's good to have Brian DiDonato back after a long absence.
01:14:20Thank you for filling in.
01:14:21Also, we want to thank our Green Group Guest of the Week, Mike Mulvihill,
01:14:24and our team executive producer, Patty Wolf, associate producer, Katie Petruniak,
01:14:29our editors, Anthony LaRocca, Leah LaRocca, and Nathan Wilkinson.
01:14:33We'll be back next week.
01:14:34Thanks for tuning in to the TDN Writer's Room Podcast.