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00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28Good afternoon, it's Wednesday, November 30th at 1.04pm and this is the TDN Writer's Room.
00:00:33I'm your host Bill Finlay, I'm a correspondent with Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:00:38I'm Randy Moss with NBC Sports and the Buyer Speed figures, that is Lucy behind me.
00:00:42No, it's not a stuffed animal, she actually is a live, breathing, fun dog when she's not
00:00:48sleeping.
00:00:49I'm Zoe Cameron, XBTV and First Racing.
00:00:53Bill, next time we've got to figure out how to get your dog in here too, because Doodle
00:00:57is strategically behind me licking his paw and I can't be responsible for whatever else
00:01:03he does in the show, but right now he's well behaved.
00:01:06Yeah, my favorite dog, Penny, is very jealous of all the airtime the dogs are getting.
00:01:12I want to remind you also that the TDN Writer's Room is brought to you each week by Keeneland
00:01:16and let's get into the weekend racing, guys.
00:01:18It was a big Thanksgiving weekend.
00:01:21The Grade 1 race was on Friday, the Clark at Churchill Nouns.
00:01:25Two stories here.
00:01:26First of all, the winner, of course, Proxy, trained by Michael Stidham, owned by Godolph
00:01:29and they just seemed to win everything, but Ridge Strike ran last in there.
00:01:33Now, afterwards, the Connections came out and said that he was a little sick in the
00:01:37race, he came out with mucus, etc.
00:01:39So it looks like they have a decent excuse.
00:01:41But you know what?
00:01:42It's funny that he's such a polarizing horse.
00:01:46Some people think he's the greatest thing ever, the people's horse, the Kentucky Derby
00:01:51was one of the greatest events in the history of horse racing.
00:01:56But a lot of people think he's a bum.
00:01:58I think the truth lies somewhere in between.
00:02:00He's a very good horse.
00:02:01Is he the best horse in training?
00:02:03No.
00:02:04Is he up to epicenter and Teba, the leading three-year-olds in the country?
00:02:08No.
00:02:09But he's going to have his day.
00:02:10He's going to win some more races and I won't hold this race against him.
00:02:13Zoe, what do you think?
00:02:14I think he's a really cool horse.
00:02:16I mean, people complain about not seeing horses run.
00:02:20Now, this guy's danced every dance.
00:02:22He does everything that's asked of him.
00:02:24If you look at the Breeders' Cup Classic, he ran huge.
00:02:27Every race has been good.
00:02:28Yeah, he had an excuse, but that was his excuse and they're sticking to it.
00:02:32He gets to stick around for next year as well, which is going to be great.
00:02:36I don't know why more people aren't getting behind this horse and enjoying him for what
00:02:42he is.
00:02:43He is a rock solid racehorse and he is the Kentucky Derby winner.
00:02:46And people just love to tear horses and tear people around.
00:02:50Let's embrace him for what he is.
00:02:52He's Rich Strike and I, for myself, am looking forward to seeing him run next year.
00:02:57He was up there for a while in the race and he backed out.
00:02:59He had an excuse.
00:03:00Move on.
00:03:01I believe last week I might have said that Rich Strike was finally going to be the favorite
00:03:07in a race.
00:03:08And I believe Zoe threw a flag on that and said, what about West Willpower?
00:03:13Zoe was right.
00:03:14West Willpower winds up the favorite over Rich Strike.
00:03:18But what about Proxy, the winner now?
00:03:19A really good effort by Proxy and notable on several different levels.
00:03:25First of all, as good as Proxy had run in his past, he had never won a stakes race of
00:03:30any kind.
00:03:31His three previous wins had been a maiden race and two allowances, all three at the
00:03:36fairgrounds.
00:03:37So, he finally gets a stakes win in a grade one in the Clark and finally gets a win away
00:03:44from the fairgrounds.
00:03:45He also showed a lot more mental maturity in the Clark.
00:03:49One of the things that had so frustrated trainer Mike Sittema about Proxy earlier in his career
00:03:53is that he would show some early speed on occasions and then completely come off the
00:03:59bridle in the middle part of the race and drop back inexplicably.
00:04:03And then he would come on again at the end and get a minor second, third, fourth place
00:04:07placing.
00:04:08Finally, in the Clark, Joel Rosario had him in the mix.
00:04:11It was a fairly slow pace early.
00:04:13He didn't drop out.
00:04:14He stayed right in there.
00:04:15He stayed focused all the way.
00:04:17And then he kicked through the lane to run down West Willpower after a nice stretch battle
00:04:23there.
00:04:24It was a race that was run, I think, to the benefit of West Willpower, given the pace
00:04:27and Proxy ran him down anyway.
00:04:29A couple of more quick notes.
00:04:31Good decision by a jockey agent, Ron Anderson, to take Rosario off of West Willpower after
00:04:37a six and three quarter length win in the Fayette and go to Proxy.
00:04:41And now Stidham will be pointing Proxy to the next big goal, the Dubai World Cup, since
00:04:46he's owned by Godolphin.
00:04:47Stidham pulled that off in 2021 with a horse named Mystic God.
00:04:51A lot to unpack there, but a good win by Proxy and a good excuse for Rick Stryke.
00:04:56I just want to add one thing to that, and I'm not knocking anybody, but it wasn't a
00:05:00very strong race.
00:05:01I mean, Rick Stryke was the only grade one winner in the field.
00:05:05Could you give Proxy credit, but at the same time say, you know what, he didn't beat the
00:05:09strongest field?
00:05:11I would agree with that.
00:05:12And what's going to be interesting going forward now, when you look ahead to what might be
00:05:15going on next spring, you look at the two big races overseas, the Saudi Cup, the Dubai
00:05:20World Cup, right?
00:05:22One of the top horses in training next year is going to be Taybah.
00:05:25And he's owned by Amir Zidane of Saudi Arabia, who's very much has a big desire to win the
00:05:32Saudi Cup in his home country.
00:05:34And since not that many trainers are keen nowadays, for some reason, on running in both
00:05:40the Saudi Cup and the Dubai World Cup, we could get a situation, Bill, kind of like
00:05:462021, when Mystic Guide had a fairly easy field to beat in the Dubai World Cup, despite
00:05:53the $12 million purse, and was able to pull it off.
00:05:57I mean, Proxy may not be running.
00:05:59Who knows? He may not be running against the A-list American dirt horses in Dubai.
00:06:04And still, he's done it before.
00:06:07I mean, they went early with Mystic Guide.
00:06:09So he's already got that plan in his mind.
00:06:14So right now, if everything goes well, that is most definitely the plan.
00:06:17I'll be down there this weekend to see him at the fairgrounds.
00:06:21All right. The other big races at Churchill on that card they have on Saturday, which I
00:06:25just love every year, it's all two-year-old races.
00:06:28There were two really nice two-year-old races with Kentucky Oaks and Kentucky Derby
00:06:32points on the line.
00:06:34Hoosier Philly won the Golden Rod.
00:06:35Very impressive there.
00:06:37Instant Coffee won the Breeders' Maturity.
00:06:39Randy, I have a question for you.
00:06:41Hoosier Philly won her race in 1.43.94.
00:06:46Instant Coffee won in 1.45.25, more than a second slower.
00:06:51How then does Instant Coffee get the better buyer number of the two?
00:06:54Instant Coffee gets an 82.
00:06:55Hoosier Philly gets an 81.
00:06:57All about the pace, Bill.
00:06:59The first six furlongs of the Colt race was run in 1.15.02 compared to 1.12.28.
00:07:09For Hoosier Philly, that's a huge difference in pace that just can't be made up in the
00:07:14last two and a half furlongs.
00:07:15So what all speed figure people have to do for the Kentucky Jockey Club's sakes for the
00:07:20Colt race is just pull it out completely from the day's variant and just give an
00:07:24estimate, basically, on what that race should have been run in based on the past
00:07:29performances of the horses involved.
00:07:31So the times, really, the comparative times of those two races don't really come into
00:07:35play. Having said that, even though Instant Coffee got, I think, what?
00:07:38A one point better number than Hoosier Philly?
00:07:41I think Hoosier Philly would have won the Kentucky Jockey Club if she had been running
00:07:45against the boys. She was just dynamic in the Goldenrod.
00:07:50And what's really interesting about her, even though she didn't run that big of a
00:07:53number, the number is irrelevant given the way that she won, just dragging Edgar
00:07:58Morales to the front and winning with the greatest of ease.
00:08:02But the comments from trainer Tom Amos.
00:08:05Now, I've known Tom since he very first started training back in Louisiana Downs in
00:08:091987. I was around him way back then.
00:08:12He's he's not a guy who is prone to hyperbole.
00:08:17And even before the Goldenrod, Tom was saying that Hoosier Philly was the best horse
00:08:24he had ever trained. And of course, he had Serengeti Empress, the winner of the
00:08:27Kentucky Oaks. He said he'd never been around on a day to day basis a horse with the
00:08:32talent of Hoosier Philly before the Goldenrod.
00:08:35He said that. And then Hoosier Philly goes out and runs a race like that.
00:08:40We'll see what happens with her now.
00:08:41She's going to get a month off in Florida along with his colt, Curly Jack.
00:08:46Then they'll come back to him at the fairgrounds and and he'll start pointing Hoosier
00:08:51Philly for the three-year-old races, which might include a run against the Colts, he
00:08:55hinted. I mean, is it possible, guys, that the two best two-year-old Phillies did not
00:09:02run in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Phillies?
00:09:04We're talking Justique, who looked terrific down at Del Mar just a couple of weeks ago.
00:09:10And then Hoosier Philly, who's a perfect three for three.
00:09:13She was a terrific buy by Lauren Carlyle for trainer Tom Amos.
00:09:17Her second down was Princess Arabella, who I knew out here in Southern California.
00:09:21She was three for three. She was retired early for Hall of Fame of Bob Baffert.
00:09:25She had a talent that you just would not believe.
00:09:29It was just a shame we didn't see her full ability, but she was a big, growthy looking
00:09:34Philly, much like Hoosier Philly is as well.
00:09:37And I have no mind that she most definitely is the best two-year-old Philly in training.
00:09:43And I'm right with you, Randy.
00:09:44She could most definitely beat the boys.
00:09:47And one other thing, I applaud trainer Tom Amos for keeping on Edgar Morales.
00:09:52He's done nothing wrong on this Philly.
00:09:54The time when we see time and time again, trainers going to bigger name riders and long may it continue,
00:10:01because this kid gets on really, really well with her.
00:10:04And he's a name that perhaps a lot of people have not heard of.
00:10:08But he is an extremely talented young rider.
00:10:11Yeah, I just want to concur with just many of the things you said.
00:10:13I mean, Instant Coffee was fine.
00:10:15He was fourth beat in seven lengths in the Breeders' Food Charity.
00:10:17That sure makes Forte look good, who won the Breeders' Food Charity and then absolutely
00:10:21came back to win the Breeders' Cup Juvenile.
00:10:24But, you know, I mean, I talked to Tom before the race as well, and I didn't know he was getting ready to say that.
00:10:29And he said, this is the best horse I've ever trained.
00:10:31It's like, what?
00:10:32Wow.
00:10:32I mean, that's such a statement.
00:10:34And you know what?
00:10:35I mean, he's now he's not committing to the Kentucky Derby, just says he's keeping an open mind about it.
00:10:40I sure hope that they give it a chance.
00:10:42I mean, at least kick the tires, maybe try running in the Risen Star stakes or something like that to see if she fits.
00:10:47I mean, if she's that good, which I think she is, the camp at Amos shouldn't feel that they're going to be overmatched against Coles.
00:10:56If this is the best horse he's ever trained, then doesn't that make her good enough to give it a try?
00:11:00I don't think people do that enough.
00:11:02And I'm sure Tom would love to win the Kentucky Derby.
00:11:04I mean, who wouldn't?
00:11:05Especially a trainer who's a pretty high profile guy like himself that has never won it.
00:11:09And he must be thinking, this is my best shot I've ever had to win the Derby.
00:11:13Go for it, Tom Amos.
00:11:15He said some Derby horses that were long shots.
00:11:18Tom also understands that while I think we both agree with Zoe that Hoosier Philly is probably the best two-year-old Philly in the country, I would take her in a race against Wonder Wheel.
00:11:29But Tom understands that he's got no chance to be voted two-year-old Philly champion.
00:11:33Wonder Wheels won back-to-back grade ones.
00:11:35He said that he was tempted to tell Edgar Morales when they get to the stretch, don't baby Hoosier Philly, turn her loose, let her run.
00:11:46Make it a big blowout.
00:11:47And maybe she can be two-year-old Philly champion after all.
00:11:50But then he kind of thought about it and said, that would be silly.
00:11:53I want to do what's in the best interest of the Philly.
00:11:56You know, he had also maybe, he said 20 years ago, he might have been tempted to run Hoosier Philly in the Breeders' Cup juvenile Phillies and sort of rush her into that race.
00:12:04But, you know, now he's 61 years old.
00:12:07He's wiser.
00:12:08He's older.
00:12:09It's all about the Philly and keeping the Philly going and not about him.
00:12:12And so a good decision there by Tom on a couple of different levels.
00:12:17Well, now, Len Green, the owner of Wonder Wheels, coming up on the show a little bit later.
00:12:21Let's not tell him what we said about you guys saying that Hoosier Philly is the best two-year-old Philly in the country, but make it all three of us.
00:12:29I believe that as well.
00:12:30And that's taking nothing away from Wonder Wheel.
00:12:32But Hoosier Philly just looks really, really special at this point.
00:12:35Now, the Kentucky Jockey Club was a complete mess.
00:12:38It really was.
00:12:39I mean, they ran the half in 50.
00:12:42You had traffic problems for Curly Jack, who was sitting back in third trying to find a way through on the rail.
00:12:47He did save ground, but he didn't get the cleanest run.
00:12:50He had Red Root One, who was in there behind horses and couldn't find a place to run until late.
00:12:56You know, Instant Coffee benefited from a clear trip, but he was also a little further back given the really slow pace.
00:13:03And he was a little, you know, a little wider.
00:13:06That race was just a complete mess.
00:13:08And I think unlike last year, when you had Smile Happy, Classic Causeway and Guayta Barrio, they were the one, two, three finishers.
00:13:17Smile Happy second in the Bluegrass, Classic Causeway winning the Tampa Bay Derby, Guayta Barrio winning the Florida Derby.
00:13:23I'll be surprised if this race has that much impact on the three-year-old picture when we get to April of 2023.
00:13:33The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:13:36And don't forget, guys, that we have the 2023 Keeneland January Horses of Ages Sale, which begins on Monday, January the 9th.
00:13:45Keeneland's September grads over the weekend include the Grade 3 Native Diver winner that was defunded for Hall of Fame of Bob Baffert,
00:13:52the Grade 2 Jockey Club winner, Instant Coffee, and the Grade 2 Goldenrod winner, Hoosier Philly.
00:13:59We already spoke about her, but Randy, have you got some coffee there?
00:14:03What's going on?
00:14:04Look, so Instant Coffee is owned by Al Gold, who got a lot of credit and a lot of attention for naming his horse Cyberknife, right?
00:14:12Who won this year's Haskell in Arkansas Derby.
00:14:15Well, he's got another good name here in Instant Coffee.
00:14:17Instant Coffee's a grandson of Medagliadoro.
00:14:20Medagliadoro was named for this Instant Coffee.
00:14:23I hope the glare's not too bad.
00:14:25Instant Espresso Coffee.
00:14:28Instant Coffee, grandson of Medagliadoro, another good name for Al Gold.
00:14:33And there you have it.
00:14:34We'll be right back with these messages from Keeneland.
00:14:40If this place could talk, it would roar.
00:14:47It would say, this is a racing, this beating heart in the heart of horse country, steady and strong beneath the roar,
00:14:58reminding us why, for the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:15:07Maximum Security proves he's the real deal with a gate-to-wire win in the Florida Derby.
00:15:13Champion 3-year-old.
00:15:14Maximum Security has won the TBG.com Haskell Invitational.
00:15:2011 triple-digit bias.
00:15:22Maximum Security, he smoked them in the Cigar Mile.
00:15:26Grade 1 winning 4-year-old.
00:15:28Maximum Security takes them all the way in the TBG Pacific Classic.
00:15:33Secure your mayor's future.
00:15:35Maximum Security.
00:15:38The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Coolmore.
00:15:41Practical Joke got his 17th stakes winner over the weekend as Little Vic won the city of Laurel Stakes.
00:15:47Practical Joke now has 31 stakes performers and will stand for $25,000 in 2023.
00:15:54Justify was represented by his first two Japanese winners on Saturday with Jovian and Awesome Result.
00:16:01Justify now leads First Crops by earnings and Black Type winners.
00:16:06And now let's get to Santa's little helper, Peter Ekberg.
00:16:11We bring in now the man in the Santa hat, also known as Peter Ekberg,
00:16:15who is the national lawyer for the National HBPA.
00:16:19Peter, thanks for joining us.
00:16:20And I'm glad to have you on today because I think it's fair of the writers room to give your side of the Hiss of Dispute equal time.
00:16:26We've had Lisa Lazarus on a few times.
00:16:28And we want to hear more from what you guys have to say about Hiss of the ongoing dispute.
00:16:33And my first question, I mean this very sincerely.
00:16:36I've never been quite sure why the National HBPA is so anti-Hiss.
00:16:41Obviously, they think it's not good for horsemen and by extension, not good for horse racing.
00:16:46But again, I've never really personally been able to connect the dots.
00:16:49I don't know if you guys have gotten the message out properly enough, at least that's the way I feel.
00:16:53So what is it about Hiss that at the end of the day, the National HBPA really doesn't like?
00:16:59Well, there are a number of things that are troubling.
00:17:02One, of course, any time a bill is unconstitutional, then it's illegal and should not be enforced and violates the Constitution.
00:17:12But that's that's one part of it.
00:17:14And the part that we that was part of the lawsuit, the major part of our lawsuit had to do with the private delegation aspects of the of the law.
00:17:26But there are other things that are equally troubling.
00:17:30One of the things that that seems I have real reservations about is a lack of transparency because we don't we have no clue as to how things are decided,
00:17:42what what happens in the meetings.
00:17:44Generally, there's there's minutes.
00:17:47I mean, I'm sure they keep minutes and those kind of minutes are usually in a public forum like Hiss making rules for all of us.
00:17:55They would they would have to disclose their minutes and show how people voted on the board and all that.
00:18:00And there's some kind of accountability, unfortunately, here as well with Hiss.
00:18:05The bylaws were written before the law was ever passed.
00:18:08The bylaws were drafted in September 2020.
00:18:11The law didn't pass until December.
00:18:14The bylaws clearly make it very difficult for any director, once they're on the board, to be removed from the board.
00:18:23There has to be cause and causes defined very narrowly.
00:18:26And then the vote has to be unanimous vote of all.
00:18:30But the guy that's going to be removed.
00:18:31So it's very difficult to get anyone off the board.
00:18:33So there's lack of lack of accountability, as we feel.
00:18:38And then because of the lack of transparency, we don't know.
00:18:42I don't know if you guys know, but, you know, I asked John Roach.
00:18:44I respect John Roach a lot.
00:18:46He's very smart and good lawyer.
00:18:48John sent me a copy of the of the tax return that was just recently filed.
00:18:53And in that it shows that Hiss has liabilities as of the end of 2021 of two point nine million dollars to unrelated third parties.
00:19:04Well, that would be nice to know who owes money to just from the standpoint of a conflict of interest.
00:19:10We don't know. We have little information.
00:19:12The budget is is not very specific at all.
00:19:15And that would be a welcome change to know where where who's getting paid, what and how the money is being spent and that sort of thing.
00:19:25And we don't we have general categories, but those are very broad and almost too broad for for us to really gleam anything from.
00:19:34The other thing that's troubling with Hiss is the funding.
00:19:36I mean, we've got budgets that are coming through now at seventy three million dollars and those are being assessed against the horsemen.
00:19:44And that's you know, and there's no real representation on the horseman's part to know, you know, again, how that's being spent or who voted for this or who's being contracted.
00:19:56I know I asked back when we had a forum with at the Churchill and Lisa Lazarus was there and I asked her for a copy of the contract that was between Hissa and the drug free sports.
00:20:14And where, you know, they're being paid to take over the drug program that's effective January one.
00:20:22And she told me that was private, that I wasn't entitled to it.
00:20:25And I've asked for I've asked for the agreements with the with the states to see, you know, if there's are they uniform or those agreements, do they continue with uniformity or are those agreements specialized for the state and different for each state?
00:20:41I don't know that because we haven't been provided those things.
00:20:44But again, transparency is is vitally important for trust.
00:20:48And without transparency, that can't be the trust that's necessary for this type of an entity.
00:20:53I guess the other thing that we have a problem with is the lack of due process, because the way it's set up is, you know, we all know how it works.
00:21:01If you have a violation currently, you go in that state, you you you go before the stewards and you have a hearing.
00:21:09And then if you don't agree with the results of that hearing, you can take it on to an administrative law judge.
00:21:14And if you after that's ruled upon and then the commission signs off on that or changes that or whatever, then it goes to the to the legal system, into a court where you have a neutral judge that makes the decision.
00:21:29With HESA, it's there's really no there's there's no trial by jury.
00:21:33That's all administrative. And so we have we have some real significant issues and expense involved in trying to to fight a any kind of a violation is is is astronomical.
00:21:45So in essence, when you make something so expensive that it's it's difficult for the the trainer, the normal trainer to fight, then that makes due process sort of fly out the window.
00:21:57And so those are some of the things that we have troubles with with HESA, not just the the anti well, not just the delegation issue, which is what the Fifth Circuit found.
00:22:09There was no accountability and delegating to a private entity was against the Constitution.
00:22:13There's also a Sixth Circuit case that's coming up to be argued December the 7th.
00:22:18And since before that, that circuit and that one of the arguments in there, when the primary arguments in there is the anti commandeering where the federal government can't require the state to spend money and that sort of thing.
00:22:30So it's there are a number of things we have that that we have trouble with with HESA and and maybe our message didn't get out as loud and clear as it should have.
00:22:42Again, we work at National.
00:22:45There's a there's a staff of two.
00:22:48Eric is the CEO, Eric Camelback, and he's he spends about 60 hours a week, if not more, on his PPA stuff.
00:22:55And then we have Lauren Manette, who's like the our head administrator in the office.
00:23:01And then myself and Lauren's part time and I'm I'm part time.
00:23:05So there's not you know, we don't have a big staff to to do a good or perhaps we should have more emphasis on our public relations.
00:23:14We have a public relations committee and we try to get people informed and get news out on a daily basis to our affiliates so they can distribute it out to the their members.
00:23:24But again, I'm not saying it's flawless or it's not.
00:23:28It would be nice to be able to to have a full staff of PR people to be able to do that.
00:23:33But we don't.
00:23:35Peter, that's a pretty that's pretty aggressive laundry list of potential objections to HISA there.
00:23:40But the the one angle, legal angle that, as you pointed out, really resonated with the courts is the delegation of lawmaking authority from the FTC to HISA.
00:23:52Now, it stands to reason, at least I would believe, that the HBPA would not be in favor of the Federal Trade Commission making laws for horse racing.
00:24:04So was that just was that was that just a convenient vehicle to try to get HISA struck down?
00:24:12Or is there anything that can be changed in HISA that would make the HBPA support HISA as an entity?
00:24:23Well, I think I gave you a laundry list of some of the issues we'd like to see changed with HISA, not just the FTC involvement.
00:24:32We always have said that we thought that if any any federal agency were to have supervisory authority, it should be the USDA, United States Department of Agriculture and not and not the FTC.
00:24:44But at the same time, we we we feel that there are a number of issues with HISA that dictate that it not come into play, that it makes significant changes.
00:24:56And there are other ways to doing it, as Ed Martin often says, you know, you don't burn the house down to fix the kitchen and we can get that kitchen fixed without bringing the house down.
00:25:05It seems like the structure that that there that HISA brings into play is is radical and and leaves a lot of things on the table that shouldn't be left.
00:25:16With with the current structure, the way things are now, I understand that there is an issue of uniformity and we are for uniformity.
00:25:25We work with the ARCI, they have they have the model rules committee and we participated in those model rules committees for a long, long time and we give input.
00:25:35They sometimes accept our input.
00:25:37They sometimes don't. But at least we know what's going on and who and what the reason is that our input is rejected or it's often adopted.
00:25:47But we get we get a chance to comment on those model rules and at least we feel like they're sort of a product of our input and our participation in the process.
00:25:57Whereas with HISA, these things are just coming out and they're telling us this is the way it is.
00:26:01And a lot of times we're wondering who came up with that rule, who came up with the crop rule?
00:26:05How did they do that? What what was the rationale for that?
00:26:08Some of these things just makes you wonder.
00:26:11So so do you believe that there that there are so many issues with HISA that it's that it's unfixable?
00:26:18Well, it can be anything can be fixed, but it's going to take a it's going to take a monumental effort to do that.
00:26:26It's not just a one fix.
00:26:27Well, let's give the FTC a little more supervisory control.
00:26:31It's got to be more than that.
00:26:32You've got to bring transparency and open the open the windows and the doors and let's see what's going on.
00:26:36Let's see how the you know, how the sausage made.
00:26:38And that's I think that's where I can't.
00:26:42So, Pete, is there a good alternative to HISA?
00:26:46I mean, what is the alternative if HISA does not get pushed through?
00:26:51I mean, there was a bill to push it to the twenty twenty four.
00:26:54Is is that on the table or do you guys?
00:26:59Yeah, we support that bill.
00:27:00H.R. ninety one thirty two, which Representative Gooden introduced from Texas.
00:27:06And unfortunately, you know, the timing is not the greatest with the new Congress coming in and all that.
00:27:11But yeah, that would be that'd be a nice step in the right direction to put off trying to enforce what what we know from the highest court so far to say is an unconstitutional law.
00:27:23And nobody knows what the Sixth Circuit is going to do.
00:27:25But I wouldn't be surprised if they would go along with the Fifth Circuit.
00:27:28But in any event, what we feel like could could add a form and be a quick fix would be medication compact where the states opt in to be covered.
00:27:42If you want to basically have a if you want to have simulcasting and be in compliance, they could add additional condition that you have to adopt the the compact.
00:27:54And the compact then would make it easy and people would have input into that.
00:28:00So the medication rules would have some some input and some contribution from from all the horsemen.
00:28:07How is that different from the national uniform medication that is now defunct, the one that fail?
00:28:13How is the new medication compact difference?
00:28:17Well, not was adopted, you know, in the mid-Atlantic by, I think, 11 or 12, maybe 13 jurisdictions.
00:28:25And and the difference would be with a compact that once a state adopts it, then then it automatically becomes that state law.
00:28:34So it would not it wouldn't they could change it and it would they wouldn't have to go back through the various legislatures to get it changed.
00:28:43Whereas now with it, with a change, if you try to do some uniform like enough, you almost have to go to each state legislator to get the legislative body to get them to to adopt it.
00:28:53And that that is pretty much unworkable.
00:28:57It takes it takes so long to get that accomplished.
00:28:58Some states happens right away.
00:29:00Other states, it takes forever.
00:29:02So if you have a compact that they've signed on, then that would allow the compact administration to make those changes in a relatively quick manner.
00:29:10Peter, as you know from I'm sure you've been following things that I've said and I've written, I think the sport has an integrity problem.
00:29:15You know, maybe you don't.
00:29:17Maybe the people at the National HBPA don't feel that way, but I do.
00:29:21And, you know, we've seen some very serious things happen with Jason Service and Jorge Navarro.
00:29:25I think there's got to be a better way than the status quo.
00:29:29Do you want to comment on that?
00:29:30And is the compact that you just talked about, is that good enough?
00:29:33Is that really going to help this sport clean up attack?
00:29:37I agree with you.
00:29:38That's the first step.
00:29:39OK, that's there's got to be more than that.
00:29:41I agree that there should be some type of a multi-jurisdictional investigative agency and that can be funded as well by, you know, by the federal government.
00:29:54And that that could have the powers that sort of like that HISA has or that a state racing commission has to go in and do investigations.
00:30:02That's that's the way that Navarro and Service are caught was through through the, you know, through that private investigation and not through the testing.
00:30:12But a lot of people are are either caught or they're or the testing allows for a, you know, a deterrent that people will not then try to try to push the envelope too far.
00:30:26Or, you know, they know that there's there's consequences, especially if they're they're testing.
00:30:30But if there's testing going on and there was under the current regime, there's been a lot of testing that, you know, the AOC has been involved in.
00:30:38And it keeps records of and, you know, again, the majority of horsemen, I'd say 99 percent are honest, hardworking and try to do things the right way in a fair way.
00:30:50Now, you're always going to find a bunch of people are going to take shortcuts and try to try to, you know, get play the system.
00:30:58And and that's the those kind of people we don't want to see in the in the industry, because that just hurts the industry and gives us a bad name.
00:31:06And the only thing that one of the things I have a problem with, I shouldn't say one of the things I have a problem with, from my standpoint, is that it seems that the the negative and I guess that's that's just that's the media.
00:31:16And that's where we do things now is that if there's a negative, it gets blown out way up.
00:31:22And the good, hardworking folks, you don't hear a whole lot about them.
00:31:26And that's, you know, I mean, I guess I'm I'm thinking utopia and all good mother and apple pie and all that.
00:31:32But at the same time, I wish there was more good stories about our good, hardworking horsemen that do it the right way.
00:31:40So in a nutshell, Peter, the reason why you're here with us today is that you do not believe that the National HBPA deserves to be on Santa's naughty list.
00:31:49Exactly. I think we should be on the nice list.
00:31:52We all have the same goals.
00:31:53We want to see we want to see fair horse racing.
00:31:55We want to see, you know, our equine athletes taking care of and giving the best treatment they possibly can get.
00:32:03And we want the rules to be fair for everybody, not just, you know, we want to be fair across the board and good racing and racing.
00:32:11The people know and can feel that it's been done the right way.
00:32:14Peter, you're wearing you're wearing your magic Santa hat.
00:32:17If it could just be you in charge of everything and you have all your little elves.
00:32:22Oh, my. Zoe, we'd have a problem if I was in charge of everything.
00:32:26You don't want. But but what would be what would be your advice?
00:32:32Like if you could rule the world and have your elves running around and we're in charge of horse racing, how would you do it?
00:32:39What's the magic answer?
00:32:41Well. I guess the the answer is that we try to you know, we we try to please ourselves.
00:32:49And when you know that now you go in the airports and you're constantly saying, you know, if you see something, say something, you know.
00:32:57And I guess that's what the horsemen we we nobody wants to be a squealer.
00:33:01Nobody wants to be, you know, doing things like that, that, you know, have been frowned upon for years.
00:33:06But maybe that's where we need to be.
00:33:08That if you feel like somebody is really doing something, there ought to be a a someone that security that you can report to without repercussions
00:33:17and that somebody is investigated and checked out if if I mean, not just because you got beaten a race.
00:33:22I mean, that's that's that's not the way it should be.
00:33:25But if you feel like you see some things going on that shouldn't be going on, report those and let's let's clean up whatever needs to be cleaned up.
00:33:33But again, we feel that that on for the whole, like ninety nine percent of the folks are good, honest and comply with the rules.
00:33:42Peter, you won a major battle in the Fifth Circuit with the court declaring that it's unconstitutional.
00:33:47You go to the Sixth Circuit now and based on the judges that were appointed to the panel, the conventional wisdom is you're going to win that as well.
00:33:56If you win in the Sixth Circuit, what happens next?
00:33:59And if Heise can't if you win there and if Heise can't get the Supreme Court to take the case, is Heise dead?
00:34:07Well, there's the third well, I guess there's there's a couple of options.
00:34:12Let me run through the options real quick.
00:34:13OK, the options for the Fifth Circuit case, they can they can ask for an en blanc hearing, which is all 16 judges to hear it.
00:34:21I don't think that would be successful because in our case, all three judges ruled that it was unconstitutional.
00:34:27So we had two Republicans and one Democrat on that panel.
00:34:32So, again, I don't think that they could ask for it.
00:34:35Maybe they would get it and maybe there would be a difference of opinion, but I don't think so.
00:34:39I think the Fifth Circuit would rule that way.
00:34:41Now, the Sixth Circuit, you're correct that the two judges, Judge Sutton and Judge Griffin, are also states rights type judges, conservative judges that likely would rule that that Heise is unconstitutional.
00:34:57If they ruled it was constitutional, then then you'd have a difference in circuits and to get to the Supreme Court be much easier.
00:35:04The Supreme Court doesn't take that many cases.
00:35:06They take maybe one in a hundred.
00:35:08So to get there to begin with is difficult.
00:35:10But if you have a difference in circuits, it's much easier.
00:35:13Again, if the Sixth Circuit rules that it's unconstitutional, then it's unlikely that they would be able to get there.
00:35:20Now, the other. So if you can't get to the Supreme Court, then the only other alternative they have is to go back to the legislature.
00:35:27And, you know, with the change of things going on now, with the differences in in control of the House and, you know, I don't know how that would work, but, you know, that would be one avenue that they could take now.
00:35:41Otherwise, if it's unconstitutional, then it's, you know, then it's it's done.
00:35:47Then what?
00:35:49Say again, then what?
00:35:50Then what happens?
00:35:51Well, what we're working on, what we're trying to do is some alternative legislation and working on trying to get the medication compact in final form that everybody can accept and go for.
00:36:04So we're working to try to make some changes that need to be made and that we would we would work with anybody that wants to work with us and sit down at the table and and try and get something ironed out.
00:36:17I think the horsemen, one of the good benefits of Heisa is that they've seen what can happen if they don't become involved, because they were all sitting on their hands thinking, oh, this will never happen.
00:36:27Well, it happened. And so they need, you know, I think now they'll they'll hopefully see that they need to be active and try and make things that, you know, try and make a contribution that we all can live with.
00:36:40You guys want me to check us in on what list you're on?
00:36:43That would be great. Yeah, thank you.
00:36:44Well, Peter Eckerberg, thanks so much for your time and thanks for the insights and an interesting story.
00:36:48We'll all stay tuned to see what happens, whether Heisa is going to go forward or not.
00:36:52And thanks so much for your time, Peter.
00:36:54Thank you all. You all have a good Christmas.
00:36:57Nominations for the 2023 PA Sired PA Bread Stallion Series are underway right now.
00:37:04If you have a yearling, don't forget to nominate.
00:37:06It's two hundred dollars, the nomination fee until December 31st.
00:37:10Then it goes up to five hundred.
00:37:11Then it goes up to five hundred.
00:37:13Then it goes up to five hundred.
00:37:14Then it goes up to a thousand.
00:37:15And the late noms next year are actually five thousand.
00:37:18So get your nomination in now for just two hundred dollars.
00:37:21Next year, the series will expand to include three days of two two year old races, each one for Colton, one for Phillies, starting at five and a half furlongs, then six and a half.
00:37:31And then one mile and a fifty thousand dollar trainer bonus will be awarded to each of the top three point earning horses.
00:37:39Another note, Wannamakers will host the second annual PA Bread Sale in conjunction with the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association, the PHBA.
00:37:47That'll be December 4th through the 8th.
00:37:50You can learn more at Wannamakers.com now for this message from the PHBA.
00:37:56Here in Pennsylvania, we're proud of our breeding program, the best in North America, but we're also proud to be leaders in this industry.
00:38:04The PA Horse Breeders Association is funding cutting edge research at PenVet to detect gene doping in thoroughbreds.
00:38:10And we endorsed the SAFE Act to help protect the most vulnerable horses.
00:38:15Plus, we're pleased to support the aftercare programs set up by our horseman's groups.
00:38:20Just a few of the reasons why you should join us in Pennsylvania, the premier place to breed and race.
00:38:27In case you don't know by now, our Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by none other than the Green Group, which is an accounting
00:38:33and tax consulting advisory firm that specializes in the thoroughbred industry.
00:38:37They have proven strategies to save you taxes, a lot of clients in the business.
00:38:42And you can learn more about the Green Group at www.greenco.com, Bill.
00:38:48And we welcome in now the Green Group guest of the week, which makes absolutely no sense because Leonard Green, who is the Green Group, is the Green Group guest of the week.
00:38:56So, Len, guess what?
00:38:57Congratulations.
00:38:58You just won a free hour of tax consultation with yourself.
00:39:02How about that?
00:39:04So, we're glad to have, always glad to have Leonard on because he has such good, not only we can talk about Wonder Wheel, the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Philly Champion, but it's getting late in the year, Len.
00:39:14There's almost just one month and a day to go in this late stage in the game.
00:39:20What can people do to save on taxes for 2023 come April 15?
00:39:25Actually, Bill, that is the most important month of the year.
00:39:28I mean, because in essence, most of our clients are on the cash basis.
00:39:36So, therefore, if they make payments before the end of December 31st, they get a tax deduction for this year.
00:39:43Also, because of the fact that bonus depreciation is the number one largest deduction that people in the horse business take.
00:39:52And basically, what that means is if you buy a horse or if you buy horse equipment or a farm, as long as you take title to it, you can take the tax deduction 100% in this year.
00:40:07If you wait till next year, you only get 80% of it as a immediate tax deduction.
00:40:12So, it's a real advantage.
00:40:15And if you have yearlings, the other little twist is you can't really take bonus depreciation on them.
00:40:22Unless you put them in service.
00:40:23What does that mean?
00:40:24That means you call up your trainer and say, hey, pick the horse out of the barn and start training for its two year old year.
00:40:31And then the horse is considered in service.
00:40:34And therefore, you can take the deduction on that yearling in this year.
00:40:38Also, there's an awful lot of expenses you can prepay.
00:40:43Again, my trainer said, why don't you pay your January bill in December?
00:40:47And I said, fine, just give me a discount.
00:40:50But again, seriously, if you take deduction, if you have a deduction that you're going to have to pay in January, why not pay it in December?
00:41:00Just write your check out and have it dated December 31st and you're in business there.
00:41:06And then the charitable contributions, especially today, being charitable day.
00:41:11OK, we've gone ahead and contributed part of our earnings from Wonder Wheel to new vocations and other charities like that.
00:41:21I think it's just a wonderful, wonderful idea.
00:41:25And then we're also setting up a Christmas party for the whole group that's in our barns.
00:41:32Again, they've earned it.
00:41:33Why not do it and pay it in this year?
00:41:37So again, those are all good ideas.
00:41:39And then just one more of them.
00:41:41It was a recent tax court case in which the IRS said, big victory for the IRS because we proved this Skolnick versus commissioner.
00:41:52We've made eight years of hobby losses which are not deductible.
00:41:57Great victory for the IRS.
00:41:59Bologna. OK, it's a great victory actually for horsemen because they laid out exactly what Skolnick did wrong.
00:42:07And if you then conversely do what Skolnick did not do, you have a beautiful plan in which you can handle it.
00:42:17And the biggest one of that whole thing, and again, I won't go into it in great detail because we are coming up with an article in TDN on it.
00:42:27But basically, he commingled everything.
00:42:30He used his personal account for paying some business expenses and some personal expenses.
00:42:36He bought personal horses with it.
00:42:38He had no business plan.
00:42:40He didn't listen to TDN, so he didn't have the hundred hours that you need to be active.
00:42:45He did everything you could do wrong.
00:42:47Great victory for the IRS.
00:42:49It's a great victory for us because now if we say we will do these kinds of things, I think you've got a great case that you're
00:42:56actively involved in the business.
00:42:58Actively involved means you can take tax deductions against ordinary income.
00:43:03Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.
00:43:05How's that?
00:43:06Sounds good.
00:43:07Very good.
00:43:08Yeah, well, Lynn, I know you guys love people like me who start thinking about taxes when the calendar gets to April the 1st.
00:43:15But then I don't have a farm or a stable or a bunch of yearlings to worry about.
00:43:19Good advice so far.
00:43:21Randy, just for a second, because we actually do 30 or 40 trainers.
00:43:28The thing that they miss most and their accountants miss is now home office deductions are allowed.
00:43:36And you guys, they're allowed because you guys are working eight days a week and nights and all kinds of things.
00:43:42And most of the trainers, their accountants are back in the old age, three or four years ago, where you couldn't have a home office.
00:43:50Maybe if you had other space.
00:43:52But now you definitely can have a home office and you start figuring out, OK, I have one room out of eight, OK, that I use for my home office.
00:44:01I have a computer in there and I watch things.
00:44:03Well, you can deduct the computer.
00:44:05You can deduct one eighth of your heat, light, power, insurance, repairs, maintenance and depreciation on your house.
00:44:12That's a big ticket item that most people are forgetting.
00:44:16Can I deduct dog food?
00:44:18Is that is that is that possible or?
00:44:21Well, again, if it's blue, if it's blue buffalo, which is a company that I used to own, OK, and we sold it for a billion dollars, can we figure out a way to do that?
00:44:33Are there any other changes in the tax laws pertaining to thoroughbred, the thoroughbred industry that people should be aware of?
00:44:42Yeah, Randy, that's a great question.
00:44:44The biggest one, OK, has to do with that immediate tax deduction is called bonus depreciation.
00:44:51And why it's so big is the previous thing that we had was called the Section 179, which was a great deduction.
00:44:59It allowed us to do 100 percent.
00:45:00But if you lost money, you couldn't use it.
00:45:05Bonus depreciation, you can use it even if you've lost money on your operation.
00:45:10But that goes from 100 percent immediate deduction to 80 percent next year.
00:45:16So I'm saying it really makes sense to make those payments.
00:45:20It's not just on horses.
00:45:22It's on equipment and other things that are involved.
00:45:26So then that's probably the biggest one.
00:45:28You can also if you want to set up an IRA or a KIO pension plan for yourself, you set it up now before December 31st.
00:45:37And you have until next October to actually make the payment.
00:45:42And it counts as if it was made December 31st.
00:45:46So again, those are very, very big as far as the horse business is concerned.
00:45:52And then again, going back to you don't have a form, but other people either have a form.
00:45:58And the key is, well, what's deductible on the form?
00:46:03Well, only the buildings, Lennon, and not the residents and the barns.
00:46:08Who the heck cares about that if you have to depreciate over 30 years?
00:46:12Well, the answer is you don't have to anymore.
00:46:15Now, with the new tax law, you're allowed to look at that barn and say, is that a special purpose building?
00:46:22If it is, you can write it off in one year.
00:46:25Well, how can I tell you if you have a shed that stores the feed in?
00:46:29Special purpose, write it off in one year.
00:46:32Look around you. Have you been taking any of the fences?
00:46:35Have you been taking certain kinds of the trees and taking the roadways?
00:46:40Most people don't and they could.
00:46:45Wow, that's a lot of deductions.
00:46:47Now, how about winning the Breeders' Cup juvenile fillies?
00:46:50How did that affect your taxes, Len?
00:46:52Is that is that a big deduction?
00:46:54How do we go forward from here?
00:46:55And by the way, well done with Wonder Wheel.
00:46:58Thank you, Zoe.
00:47:00It was a real thrill.
00:47:02I guess it's the reason why I'm in the business for 40 some odd years to win something like that.
00:47:10And people say, well, you actually won it before.
00:47:14Well, yeah, but that wasn't as much as this one, because this one was kind of planned out.
00:47:22Ha ha, planned out.
00:47:23You know, man plans and God laughs sometimes.
00:47:26But this was a new setup.
00:47:28OK, we have a new manager.
00:47:31OK, and he said, hey, let's change the operation.
00:47:34And I said, John, I've been running this thing for so many years.
00:47:38I certainly know what I'm doing.
00:47:39Well, let's change it.
00:47:41So we changed it in the sense that now and I think you can appreciate this.
00:47:46OK, what what what what Mark is doing?
00:47:50He pointed out that Len used to buy yearlings and you used to put them on a farm and they would break them.
00:47:56But the farm that they're breaking them on, OK, also breaks horses for sales.
00:48:01And the breaking of horses for sales should be different than breaking the horses for racing, because you're pushing the horses a lot faster.
00:48:09Right, Randy?
00:48:10To do that, except that 10 seconds or 21 seconds or something, if you're going to sell it.
00:48:16So this time, for the first time, we had not only had had Mark pick out the horses.
00:48:22But oh, he had it easy because Kim and other people, you know, take these two thousand, three thousand horses and they break them down.
00:48:31So but it's still he had to look at several hundred horses.
00:48:36OK, and then being a trainer.
00:48:39OK, I'm sure, Randy, the same thing.
00:48:41That's nice that they gave us this list.
00:48:43But you know what?
00:48:43I'm going to walk around the barns and pull out horses that I want to look at myself.
00:48:49And so anyway, we now have a short list.
00:48:51But this year, for the first year, back one year, we actually took those horses and let Mark bring them along for racing.
00:49:00And then he said, OK, I think this horse has ability.
00:49:04So let's go forward to to November and work backwards from November.
00:49:10OK, so each race was actually spaced out.
00:49:14Now, again, it all has to fall into place, obviously.
00:49:18But it fell into place every month.
00:49:21OK, we had picked out a race and then typical of trainers.
00:49:26OK, we finished second in the spin away.
00:49:28And he says, that's OK.
00:49:30That's not the race I was aiming for.
00:49:32I was aiming for the Breeders Cup.
00:49:34Right. So again, it was very exciting, but it was kind of fell into place.
00:49:40Now, again. They kid us owners, they let us play the trainer sometime.
00:49:49You give the orders to Tyler.
00:49:51OK, Tyler, you know how you've won before and we charted this race out to John and I.
00:49:57OK, so here's the speed to the inside.
00:49:59We can take care of that.
00:50:00Here's the speed to the outside.
00:50:02Then make those horses go around this.
00:50:05Tyler says, sure.
00:50:06OK, we break last.
00:50:11So, Len, you plotted out a course, you plotted out a course to the Breeders Cup
00:50:15Juvenile Phillies. What's the course that Mark John and you are plotting out for the
00:50:21Kentucky Oaks? I assume she's going to fairgrounds and kind of you have any thoughts
00:50:25yet on what her campaign will look like for 2023?
00:50:29Do you want what they did thinking about or what I'm thinking about?
00:50:33You, you're the boss.
00:50:35You pay the bills.
00:50:37You know, Randy, it's funny.
00:50:39OK, many, many years ago when I started, OK, I started with somebody called Walter
00:50:44Reese, who won a lot of races for us over the years.
00:50:48And the first horse we got with Walter, I said to him, I want to give the the jockey
00:50:54the orders. He said, fine.
00:50:56OK, so I gave him this what you do here.
00:51:00And here's a time I think you should have here and keep the horse to the outside.
00:51:05And he said, si, senor, because he didn't understand English.
00:51:08Is that typical of trainers?
00:51:12Going back to your question, OK, and Bill, you must look at our playbook because the
00:51:18fairgrounds is probably the first one in the list.
00:51:22And then if it wins there, where it goes from there and there.
00:51:26OK, but the ultimate is, OK, somewhere, OK, in May, OK, there's a couple of races.
00:51:33OK, and I think we're going to cross.
00:51:37Enter, OK, OK, into both the Oaks and some other race, that's one run in May.
00:51:44OK, but the ultimate challenge is still going to be the Oaks and then the Ashland and
00:51:49work your way back. However, I'm going to tell you, we have a lot of other good
00:51:54horses in our stable, so who knows what's going to happen?
00:51:59How about Renegade Red Bull?
00:52:01I mean, she was just so impressive winning the Nazarene, the daughter of Nyquist.
00:52:05You paid a lot of money for her, but she sure turned it around since going to
00:52:08Woodbine. Zoe, thank you.
00:52:11OK, and again, I take credit for all these purchases because I'm the one that cuts the
00:52:17check. Now, you know, again.
00:52:20I think to be successful as a business, let's put the business head on for a second.
00:52:26I think you've got to run these things as a business.
00:52:29Now, again, it's not going to work as easy.
00:52:32But then again, most businesses don't work as easy.
00:52:36There's always something that comes up that's unexpected.
00:52:39So you have to account for that.
00:52:42But you should have a business strategy and plan and not only for the sake of it, but
00:52:48also just in case the IRS ever looks and says, hey, what was your plan?
00:52:53You may have lost money, but did you have some opportunities to do it?
00:52:57Did you buy fillies and then colts?
00:53:00And then did you go overseas to buy horses and broodmares?
00:53:05And are you buying better broodmares now so that you can breed and get all kinds of
00:53:10stallion and broodmare contracts and things that you don't have to pay?
00:53:14So again, it's all part so that you then can get the book one or book two.
00:53:19So again, there's definitely a plan.
00:53:23So the renegade is down.
00:53:26And again, one of the advantages that not only of all the hard work that goes into
00:53:31these short lists, but when you figure that the accounting firm has 800 clients, OK,
00:53:38and over a hundred of them, OK, are consignors at sales.
00:53:43Now, again, they're in it to make business, to make profits.
00:53:47They don't necessarily, OK, tell you, OK, what might be their best worst.
00:53:54But when you threaten them, when I'm going to turn you into the IRS, if you ever
00:53:58give me a bad look, then you have a little competitive advantage.
00:54:02OK. Barry Eisman is one of the best in the business, Doc.
00:54:07OK. And we went to his his consignment and he said, Len, there is an outstanding
00:54:12horse here, but I'm not sure you can afford it.
00:54:17I got to tell you, Len, I loved her at the sale.
00:54:20She was at the top of my list.
00:54:21So well done you for getting her and paying seven hundred thousand for her because she
00:54:25was. How much did we pay?
00:54:27Rude. Yeah, it's OK.
00:54:32The other horse, the two hundred and seventy five thousand.
00:54:36Zoe, that really was an R&A.
00:54:39OK, yeah. And again, it's the way, way back in our in our early days.
00:54:45OK, Bob Scanlon used to pick out horses for us, bless his soul.
00:54:50OK. And he used to say, don't worry about the fact that you didn't buy the horse.
00:54:54So what do you mean? It may have been R&A in his.
00:54:58He went back that night and saw what the R&As were and then went to the consignors.
00:55:04So the next morning we got up at six o'clock, he said, come on over.
00:55:08He said, we have an opportunity to buy this horse or that horse.
00:55:12And I never realized that that was an it was an alternative to it.
00:55:16So there's a story behind.
00:55:19We had each one of these, plus there's a story behind.
00:55:24Somebody said to me that you're now made now have won two thousand four hundred and
00:55:30seventy eight races, I said, you're probably close, I said, but we've also lost eight
00:55:35thousand six hundred twenty two races and I keep track of that side of the.
00:55:41So, again, you guys have a great show.
00:55:44Incidentally, also, you don't emphasize enough that to be active in this business, you
00:55:51should have at least a hundred hours.
00:55:54What does that mean? Well, listening to your telecasts and podcasts and things that
00:56:00counts as part of it, because there's so much you can learn from these things, because
00:56:07we're not just talking red and blue and make believe we're talking real and things that
00:56:12that can do and can't do.
00:56:13That's so important to this game.
00:56:15You would never. There's so many people who are successful in other businesses who come
00:56:21into this business and think they can leave their head behind.
00:56:25They got to know more about it.
00:56:27They got to be more involved in it.
00:56:29And that that lends itself to success.
00:56:33Of course, I don't want to be as controversial, though, as you are, I'm certain of your
00:56:37something matters. But, you know, but again, again, just being a horse owner for a moment, I
00:56:46really thought, OK, that one of the answers to this business was was the H.I.
00:56:52essay and a thing.
00:56:53And if it gets turned down, then you got to find something else because it was the right
00:56:59answer. OK, maybe it's done a different way.
00:57:03But I really enjoyed going to the Breeders' Cup and standing there in the in the shed row and
00:57:09watching these eight or 10 veterinarians every day looking at the horses.
00:57:15To me, that was a real positive, I felt much better about that.
00:57:20Well, once again, the Green Group guest of the week, Len Green, I know that makes no sense, but
00:57:25nonetheless, that's the way we did it.
00:57:27Len, thanks so much for your insights.
00:57:28Best of luck with Wonder Wheel on the road to the Kentucky Oaks next year.
00:57:31Congratulations on your victory in the Breeders' Cup and the Eclipse Award that's coming your way
00:57:35fairly shortly. We'll talk to you again soon.
00:57:37Thank you, guys.
00:57:40So once again, you can learn more about the Green Group and everything they can do for you in the
00:57:45tax consulting and advisory business by logging on to www.greenco.com.
00:57:50We'll be right back after this message from the Green Group.
00:57:53Why do the most successful owners, breeders and horsemen select the Green Group as their tax
00:57:57advisor? We simply save them money and know how to make them more successful.
00:58:01Over the past 40 years, founder Leonard Green has owned and bred some of the best racehorses in the
00:58:05history of the sport. His in-depth, hands-on industry knowledge combined with cutting edge tax
00:58:10saving strategies has produced positive results for his clientele and has made the Green Group the
00:58:14top rated accounting and tax firm in the business.
00:58:16For a confidential and complimentary consultation, contact us at 732-634-5100 or visit our
00:58:23website at www.greenco.com.
00:58:26The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:31The TDN Racers Room is brought to you by the Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:36The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:39The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:42The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:45The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:48The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:51The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:54The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:58:57The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:59:00The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:59:03The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
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00:59:48The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:59:51The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:59:54Why don't you give us a little preview of the two Grade 1 races to be run this weekend at Del Mar?
00:59:58A closing week at Del Mar, by the way.
01:00:00Yeah, I already mentioned the Grade 1 Hollywood Derby.
01:00:03Looks like the winner of the Twilight Derby, Cabo Spirit, will be going forward there for George Papadromou.
01:00:10I love him going in there. He's already proven at Del Mar.
01:00:13Speaking Scout, who was the runner-up to him in the Twilight Derby, will be going forward there.
01:00:18Spycatcher will be going forward in the Del Mar Derby.
01:00:21And perhaps War at Sea. Of course, we're recording this on Wednesday.
01:00:24The entries aren't out yet. So the Grade 1 Hollywood Derby.
01:00:27Looks like it's going to be a very good race.
01:00:30But, guys, how about the Grade 1 Matriarch?
01:00:33Coming in, we've got Chad Brown, who's won four of the last five races.
01:00:38Dolce Zelle is coming in now.
01:00:40She was perhaps a controversial scratch the morning of the Valley View.
01:00:44She was a vet scratch at Keeneland.
01:00:47She's coming in as the lone three-year-old in here.
01:00:49Three-year-olds do not have a very good record in the Grade 1 Matriarch.
01:00:53But then he's got Regal Glory looking for back-to-back wins.
01:00:57Is it just Regal Glory and Chad Brown in the Grade 1 Matriarch?
01:01:01I don't think so.
01:01:02We've got Avenue de France coming in here.
01:01:05She didn't run very well in the Goldikova last time out.
01:01:08She was slated to be in the Keeneland November sale.
01:01:12This will be her swan song.
01:01:13She'll go in the January sale, the Horses of Racing Age sale.
01:01:16And I think she's got a very good shot.
01:01:18Peter Bianca goes in there.
01:01:20It's just a terrific weekend of racing at Del Mar.
01:01:25And Wakanaka in the Matriarch as well.
01:01:28She looks like she's coming out there.
01:01:30I think that may be one of the best renditions that we're going to see
01:01:33in a long time of the Grade 1 Matriarch.
01:01:36Well, I wouldn't call this cigar one of the best renditions
01:01:39we've seen of the cigar.
01:01:40Here are some of the big names in there.
01:01:42Mind Control coming off the second last time out.
01:01:45Actually, he crossed the wire second,
01:01:46was placed first through disqualification in the Parks Dirt Mile.
01:01:49Zandon, I assume, will be the favorite for Chad Brown.
01:01:52He runs well every single time out but hasn't won since the Bluegrass.
01:01:56Second in the Pennsylvania Derby.
01:01:57Third in the Traverse.
01:01:58Second in the Jim Dandy.
01:01:59Third in the Kentucky Derby.
01:02:01You have Peter Miller bringing in a horse by the name of Get Her Number.
01:02:05Then Norm Cash, Norman Lynn Cash,
01:02:08who we've talked about so much with Beverly Park,
01:02:10is bringing in a horse named Double Crown,
01:02:13who won the Kelso last time out at 42-1.
01:02:16He's slated to run seven times between this Saturday's cigar
01:02:20and the end of the year for the trainer who I love,
01:02:23who actually believes in running his horses.
01:02:25And White Abario, of course, is in there as well,
01:02:27the Florida Derby winner.
01:02:28He has not been in good form lately.
01:02:30Fifth in the Pennsylvania Derby.
01:02:31Seventh in the Haskell.
01:02:32Randy, what do you think of the cigar?
01:02:34It's an evenly matched race.
01:02:35The punchline about Lynn Cash and Double Crown
01:02:38is that when they won the Kelso, of course,
01:02:40the horse was coming back on seven days rest.
01:02:43Right.
01:02:44So he's done that over and over and over again.
01:02:46I think the favoritism is going to come down to Zandon and mind control.
01:02:49I think the question about Zandon is the one-turn mile.
01:02:52He doesn't have much early speed.
01:02:54There doesn't look to be a ton of early speed in there.
01:02:57You know, can Zandon stay in touch early
01:02:59or will he drop a little too far back?
01:03:01And mind control is one of my favorite horses.
01:03:04I mean, this horse is just so gutsy.
01:03:07Whenever he gets a horse up next to him,
01:03:09he just almost refuses to get past.
01:03:12And if he does, he comes back and gets the horse again.
01:03:14We've seen it twice out of mind control in his last four races.
01:03:19Back in the Salvador Mile at Monmouth,
01:03:21Hot Rod Charley, who's a pretty game horse himself,
01:03:24put ahead in front of mind control at the eighth pole.
01:03:27Mind control battled back to win.
01:03:30And we saw earlier in late 2021 in a race at Parks,
01:03:35Silver State got a half length in front of mind control in mid-stretch.
01:03:39And mind control, again, battled back along the inside to win.
01:03:43So he's a pretty tough out, this horse, mind control.
01:03:46It's a pretty evenly matched race,
01:03:47but I think it's going to come down to those two.
01:03:49It should be fun to watch.
01:03:50Randy, who do you like in the matriarch?
01:03:53You know, Zoe, I'll lean toward Chad Brown and Regal Glory.
01:03:58You know, that's easy.
01:03:59You know, that's like a softball answer.
01:04:01I know that.
01:04:03But, you know, Chad's had success shipping horses out there
01:04:07and doing well in those kinds of races at Del Mar.
01:04:10You know, Graham Motion has too, and he's got a little stable out there.
01:04:14So, you know, but I agree with you.
01:04:17It's going to be a really, really fascinating race to watch.
01:04:21There were jockeys in the news over the weekend.
01:04:23Luis Saez pulled out a win of the riding title at Churchill Downs for that meet.
01:04:28And not that Saez isn't a good rider, he's a great rider,
01:04:30but usually if a guy comes in from out of town,
01:04:33they have a hard time, you know, trying to pick up mounts,
01:04:35trying to pick up business.
01:04:37Not only did he win six on Saturday at Churchill Downs,
01:04:40but he beat Tyler Gafleon, who's the king of Churchill Downs,
01:04:43for the riding title, 23 to 21.
01:04:46Luis Saez, big feather in his cap, Zoe.
01:04:49Yeah, absolutely.
01:04:50Six races.
01:04:51I think he's just one behind Pat Day and Julian Lepreux's record of seven there.
01:04:56He also just beat Tyler Gafleon at Keyland as well.
01:04:59So the pair of them are slated to go head-to-head at the championship meet
01:05:03that comes up at Goldstream Park as well.
01:05:06So some really exciting things.
01:05:07Don't forget about Angel Cruz in Maryland.
01:05:09He had a six-win day this weekend as well.
01:05:12So four letters, last one ending in Z.
01:05:16I mean, apparently that makes to a six-win day.
01:05:18Five of his wins were at Charlestown.
01:05:20One at Laurel and then rode five at Charlestown.
01:05:22Well done, Angel Cruz.
01:05:24What do you love, Randy?
01:05:26As a horse player, this will resonate with you guys.
01:05:29What I love the most about Luis Saez, back to him, is his aggressiveness.
01:05:34Yeah, I mean, nothing against the Ortiz brothers,
01:05:37who were obviously tremendously talented.
01:05:40I mean, I read Ortiz is on a huge career path in the Breeders' Cup, etc., etc.
01:05:44You know, they're fantastic riders,
01:05:47but so many top riders nowadays lean toward passiveness
01:05:51and sitting still and waiting and waiting
01:05:54and not really being that aggressive early in a race,
01:05:56even when the situation calls for it.
01:05:58Luis Saez is aggressive when it's advantageous to be aggressive.
01:06:05And as a horse player, I really, really like to see that
01:06:09because it really helps when you're handicapping races
01:06:12to know that you've got a guy like that on a horse that needs a ride like that.
01:06:16Yeah, I'm absolutely with you.
01:06:18And on top of his aggressiveness, it's a safe kind of aggressiveness.
01:06:22It's not often that we see him being pulled up
01:06:25and, like, charging over horses' heels
01:06:28or he's in trouble and he's in the headlines for that.
01:06:30You never hear anything about Luis Saez other than he's a great rider
01:06:34and he's a super, super nice guy.
01:06:37And his agent speaks for himself, really, in Kira McLaughlin.
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01:07:49Backstreet workers are the backbone of the thoroughbred racing industry.
01:07:53Without them, racing would not be possible.
01:07:56The New York Racetrack Chaplaincy provides vital programs and services
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01:08:09You can help by visiting our website and donating today.
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01:08:19Well, this week's Remy Balak cartoon is in,
01:08:21and it's that time of year it's cold
01:08:23and the horses are starting to get their big winter coats.
01:08:25And all these famous horses out in a field,
01:08:27they're all shaggy and they're looking around
01:08:29and they don't recognize anybody.
01:08:31They can't even tell who they are.
01:08:32So check out Remy's cartoon.
01:08:33It always runs in Friday's TDN.
01:08:35Well, that's a wrap on this week's TDN Writer's Room.
01:08:38I want to thank Zoe Cabman.
01:08:39I want to thank Randy Moss.
01:08:40I want to thank our guest, Peter Eckebert,
01:08:42our Green Group guest of the week, Len Green of the Green Group,
01:08:45our producer, Patty Wolf,
01:08:47our associate producer, Katie Petruniak,
01:08:49and our editors, Leon LaRocca and Anthony LaRocca.