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00:00:00They say, the harder the work, the greater the reward.
00:00:18This is our life's work.
00:00:21Good morning, it is 9-16 Wednesday, August 3rd, I remember to change my calendar behind
00:00:29me.
00:00:30I'm Joe Bianca, the Associate Editor of the Thoroughbred Daily News, and I want to wish
00:00:33a very sincere happy birthday to our sensei, our producer, Patti Wolfe.
00:00:38We should hear from her, John.
00:00:39Because I told you in the beginning that that was going to be my intro.
00:00:41I had...
00:00:42Well, three intros.
00:00:43That's how much we love Patti.
00:00:44That's true, that's true.
00:00:45But now it's a pleasure on Bill to do it, too.
00:00:46I had, you know, sparkly candles in light of Patti's birthday and everything.
00:00:54So anyway, Bill, I'm going to jump in because my candle's going to burn pretty soon.
00:01:00But Jonathan Green, General Manager of DJ Stable, I want to welcome Joe Bianca back
00:01:03from his vacation, remind everybody that we have our 150th show coming up in a couple
00:01:08of weeks.
00:01:09So we're going to have some great guests on that.
00:01:10And also to wish happy birthday to Patti.
00:01:12And now Bill will sing happy birthday.
00:01:15Good morning, I'm Bill Finley, a correspondent for Thoroughbred Daily News, and I can't sing
00:01:18to save my life.
00:01:19So I will not be doing that.
00:01:21And without being able, you guys have already decided I can't say happy birthday to Patti.
00:01:26You don't want to talk trade deadline, how the Red Sox have reanimated their.
00:01:31Don't remind me, it was a disaster for our team.
00:01:35The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland this November.
00:01:38Keeneland is the place to be as the home of the Breeders' Cup World Championships, followed
00:01:42directly by the November breeding stock sale.
00:01:44You can learn more at november.keeneland.com.
00:01:48OK, so it's good to be back in the captain's chair this week.
00:01:52Missed you guys last week.
00:01:53You did a great job, as always, without me.
00:01:55And we have some good racing to talk about, mainly at Saratoga from the weekend.
00:01:59And I think the headliner for me, you know, as great as Jackie's Warrior was, and it's
00:02:04always fun to watch him and always a pleasure to talk about him.
00:02:08The headliner to me was Epicenter in the Jim Dandy because this was one of those races
00:02:12that, you know, wasn't that wasn't long on number of horses, but was long on talent.
00:02:17You had three of the top three year olds in the country and him early voting and Zandan
00:02:22and Epicenter basically blew them away.
00:02:24And I was surprised.
00:02:25I don't know about you guys, but I was surprised at how the race unfolded because I expected
00:02:29Epicenter from the inside post, especially after what happened in the Preakness with
00:02:33him being too far back.
00:02:34I expected Joel Rosario to be aggressive and send him to the lead and for early voting
00:02:38to be stalking him.
00:02:39But it didn't work out that way.
00:02:41Early voting got the trip of a lifetime and I thought was the real big disappointment
00:02:44in there.
00:02:45I thought Zandan ran a pretty good race.
00:02:46But Epicenter in the stretch really had those horses anytime he wanted.
00:02:50And it's interesting what's happened like in the past two weeks because I didn't get
00:02:53to talk to you guys about the Haskell last week.
00:02:55But we went from Jack Christopher being what we thought was the top three year old in the
00:02:59land to now, you know, he's still obviously a really nice horse, but you got to think
00:03:03his future is one turn to now Epicenter, I think, is once again the top three year old
00:03:08in the country.
00:03:09And we felt that way earlier in the year leading up to the Derby.
00:03:12And he kind of just he got lost in the sauce a little bit when he ran second in the Derby
00:03:16in the Preakness.
00:03:17We hadn't seen him since.
00:03:18So to me, it's clear now that he's the top three year old in the country.
00:03:21What do you guys think?
00:03:22Yeah, Joe, I couldn't agree more.
00:03:24And, you know, a couple of things looking back.
00:03:27How unlucky was this horse not to have won a triple crown race?
00:03:31I mean, he and the circumstances played differently.
00:03:33He easily could have won both the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness.
00:03:37And yeah, I picked Epicenter big deal.
00:03:39I pick a Faber in a four horse race.
00:03:41But, you know, a 16th of a mile, an eighth of a mile into the race, this horse had no
00:03:44chance and it didn't make any sense.
00:03:47And one of the reasons I think it was because he's going to go to the lead.
00:03:50He's going to dictate the pace because he has enough speed to do that.
00:03:53And he drew inside of early voting.
00:03:57And, you know, I don't know if that was it was never really so far as I saw really
00:04:01explained by Joel Rosario, Steve Bassett, who said if that was the plan to take him
00:04:05from off the pace or that's just sort of the way things develop.
00:04:09But I thought, you know, after Rosario didn't give him a great ride in the Preakness
00:04:13zone guy, what is Joel doing here?
00:04:15This horse is not going to win.
00:04:17For him to have overcome, you know, it wasn't a terrible trip by any stretch of
00:04:21imagination, but it was a trip where he was the one that was at a disadvantage.
00:04:25And for him to have overcome that and then to win quite easily over, like you said,
00:04:29two very good horses in early voting in Zandon, you know, really stamped him as
00:04:34the horse to beat in the Traverse number one and number two, the best three year
00:04:38old out there.
00:04:39Now, the Traverse is going to get more difficult, mainly because, you know, what
00:04:42is charging it all about?
00:04:44I don't know.
00:04:45You know, coming off that ridiculous win in the Dwyer.
00:04:48But yeah, a very good performance for him.
00:04:51And, you know, plenty to say about Jackie's warrior, but I'll let John go and then
00:04:55I'll circle back to that.
00:04:56Yeah.
00:04:57And for me, there were really three stories over the weekend.
00:05:00One is, you know, epicenter, obviously, and just how well he ran and how he has,
00:05:04you know, brought himself back to the prominence of the three year old crop.
00:05:09Also, really disappointed in early voting.
00:05:12You know, when a horse can go out there in 24 and 148, 112, very, very pedestrian,
00:05:17you know, fractions for, you know, for a grade two Jim Dandy, especially on a
00:05:22speed favoring racetrack like Saratoga has been playing this summer.
00:05:25I was really shocked that they packed it in as quickly as he did.
00:05:30Epicenter went by everybody and, you know, sat off the speed and he went down the
00:05:35middle of the racetrack and won very impressively.
00:05:38But let's also give due to the trainer.
00:05:41Steve Asmussen, where not only did he win the Jim Dandy, he won the Vanderbilt and
00:05:46he also won the Amsterdam.
00:05:47I mean, we and we talked about Joe, you weren't here last week, but we were
00:05:50crowing about how great of a weekend it was for for Chad Brown to come in to
00:05:54Monmouth and invade and win all those graded state races that he did, you know,
00:05:59not to take anything away from Monmouth, but I think we'll all agree Saratoga is
00:06:02a much deeper pool to win races in.
00:06:05And, you know, Steve Asmussen and his team won the Jim Dandy, the Vanderbilt and
00:06:10the Amsterdam. To me, that is a story unto itself.
00:06:13We'll talk about Jackie's Warrior because as far as I'm concerned, that race,
00:06:18Jackie's Warriors race was the race where you go, wow.
00:06:21And granted, he was, you know, one to five.
00:06:24I mean, that's the way he's supposed to win a race.
00:06:26But how awesome is that horse?
00:06:28And just setting up for the for the Jack versus Jack or Jack versus Jackie, you
00:06:33know, Sprint Breeders Cup race.
00:06:35I mean, that that is going to be like an Ali Frazier type race.
00:06:38It's really going to be exciting to see those two heavyweights run for the
00:06:43Breeders Cup for all the money for for the title of championship sprinter.
00:06:46So for me, it was epicenter Jackie's Warrior and Asmussen at all on his team.
00:06:51They all deserve, you know, kudos for this weekend's performances.
00:06:56Are we sure that Jack Christopher is going to be pointed to the sprint?
00:06:58Because nobody said as much, Joe.
00:07:01I think they've only committed to the Alan Jerkins.
00:07:04But, you know, what other option would they have?
00:07:07I mean, if the Breeders Cup dirt mile around one turn, I think that would be a
00:07:11major option.
00:07:12But around two turns, I don't know that that and this is just me saying this.
00:07:16I don't think that's what they would would go for.
00:07:19I would assume.
00:07:20Yes, he's going to go for the sprint.
00:07:21Yeah, I just I've seen horses.
00:07:23I thought we're going to go in the sprint before it's dead up for the somewhat
00:07:26easier spot in the dirt mile.
00:07:28But yeah, I mean, I obviously would love to see that matchup.
00:07:31Jackie's Warrior is just he's so devastating every single time he runs and
00:07:35listen, everybody's people are going to complain that that wasn't a legitimate
00:07:38grade one field.
00:07:39But that's what happens when you have a horse who is so dominant the way he is.
00:07:42You're going to scare away the competition.
00:07:44And that was the easiest grade one win you'll ever see in your life.
00:07:48You know, he he just galloped around the track.
00:07:52And I, you know, I'm saying on Twitter, I remember the last time I see a great
00:07:55one, one without the jockey moving his hands once.
00:07:58And someone corrected me.
00:07:59And they said, Joel did move his hands once to tip him outside.
00:08:05Nudge to tip him outside of the pace setter early on.
00:08:08And that was all it took.
00:08:09He did everything else himself.
00:08:11It was the definition of a public workout.
00:08:13And it's just it's great to watch him.
00:08:15And I, you know, I always shout him out.
00:08:16But I got to shout out Kirk Robinson, Kirk Robinson and Judy Robinson for
00:08:20bringing him back as a four-year-old because we complain a lot on this show
00:08:24about horses getting retired after the three-year-old season.
00:08:27And, you know, they run four times and they're they're whisked off to the
00:08:30breeding shed.
00:08:31Got to give credit when the opposite happens.
00:08:33And the owners and the connections bring a horse back where everybody loves to
00:08:37see bring a champion back.
00:08:38And, you know, have him strut his stuff in front of the Saratoga grandstand.
00:08:43It was a real special performance.
00:08:45And a 105 buyer.
00:08:46So, I mean, in general, I don't love when people say, well, this horse could
00:08:50have won by so much more.
00:08:51Well, you don't know that.
00:08:52In this case, this horse obviously could have won by so much more than that.
00:08:57Could have gotten a 10 plus buyer and won by six, seven lengths if he wanted
00:09:01to.
00:09:02And, you know, he's probably going to win the four-go.
00:09:04And the question now becomes, you know, how legitimate of a horse of the year
00:09:09candidate is he?
00:09:10And there's some discussion about that on Twitter after the race.
00:09:13And, you know, I think a lot, of course, a lot depends.
00:09:16We've got the Whitney coming up this Saturday that we're going to preview
00:09:18later.
00:09:19A lot of it depends who wins that race, how impressively, what that horse does
00:09:22the rest of the year.
00:09:23But I would say right now at this moment on August 3rd, Jackie's Warriors got
00:09:28the most impressive resume of any horse in the country right now to be horse
00:09:32of the year.
00:09:33I'm curious to hear what you guys say about that.
00:09:34But I just wanted to mention the Amsterdam real quick, too, because John
00:09:37talked about what a big weekend it was for Steve Asmussen.
00:09:40It's a little bit of an underappreciated horse, I think.
00:09:42He had a really nice two-year-old season, fell off a little bit later in the
00:09:46year, and then early this year he had a, I mean, last race he had a second
00:09:50that I thought, you know, it was a little bit better than it looked.
00:09:53I thought it ran a really good race, too, for Chad Brown.
00:09:56I think he's a really nice horse.
00:09:57We'll probably see those two in the Allen Jerkins again.
00:09:59Corniche was a big disappointment.
00:10:01Apparently he tore his frog off in that race, so he's going to need some
00:10:05recovery from that.
00:10:06He's just a ridiculous underlay no matter what.
00:10:09So he's the kind of horse who needs to kind of regain some of that past magic,
00:10:14and we'll see if he can ever do it.
00:10:16But, yeah, I just wanted to mention Gunn-Eye, too, because he's super game.
00:10:19I thought the Chad horse was going to run by him for basically the entire last
00:10:23frog, and he couldn't do it.
00:10:25So shout-out to Gunn-Eye and Gunn-Runner, obviously, still producing these
00:10:28monster horses.
00:10:29But what do you guys think about Jackie's work?
00:10:31Do you think he has a legitimate horse of the year chance?
00:10:33Yeah, a couple points.
00:10:34I'll start with that.
00:10:35For what it's worth in the NTRA poll, I'm a voter.
00:10:37I voted for him second this week behind Flightline.
00:10:40He'll need Flightline and maybe a couple others in the divisions that normally
00:10:45voters look to first for horse of the year to, you know, stub their toes
00:10:49at some point.
00:10:51And, you know, if you want to say, you know, Flightline is, what, going to run
00:10:55two-and-a-half times this year or whatever, that isn't enough to be horse of the
00:10:59year, you might have a legitimate argument, though.
00:11:01So we'll see.
00:11:02But, you know, Joe, you're right.
00:11:04I can't recall any race at that level where horses won that easily.
00:11:11I realize, you know, the horses behind them weren't great, but they weren't
00:11:15bums either.
00:11:16And, you know, it reminded me, you know, we always talk about XPTV as one of our
00:11:20sponsors here.
00:11:21If someone showed you that video and you didn't somehow, you didn't understand
00:11:26there was a race, it looked like those workouts, what they do, but then when
00:11:31they go five furlongs and 103, you know, and you say, oh, of course he went,
00:11:35because the jockey never or the exercise rider never allowed him to run.
00:11:40You know, it looked exactly like a morning workout, but they put a morning
00:11:45workout and 109 and change that earned a 105 fire.
00:11:48I mean, it was an absolutely sensational, sensational race on his part.
00:11:53And, yeah, I mean, if the racing season ended today when I vote for horse of
00:11:59the year, you know, maybe I would.
00:12:00But, you know, we're going to have to see what happens throughout the rest of
00:12:03the year.
00:12:04But, yeah, it's great to have this horse back.
00:12:06And I think when it's all said and done, this might be the race from Sarah,
00:12:11depending on what happens in the Whitney and Travers, of course.
00:12:13But this might be the most memorable, turn out to be the most memorable race
00:12:16for me.
00:12:17Let me just give you a hypothetical that probably won't happen, but let's just
00:12:20play it out.
00:12:21Let's say that Nest runs in the Travers and wins, and then Nest runs in the
00:12:26Distaff and wins.
00:12:28Based on her resume with those two wins, you know, win against the boys in the
00:12:32Travers, second in the Belmont, win in the coaching club, second in the Oaks,
00:12:37and winning the Ashland, all and the Suncoast, you know, all the calendar year
00:12:42of 2022.
00:12:43The Suncoast.
00:12:44Don't forget that because she beat us.
00:12:45That's why I remember it.
00:12:46But, you know, at that point in time, does that give Nest the resume to be horse
00:12:52of the year?
00:12:53If she beats the boys, you know, finish second in the Belmont and then wins the
00:12:56Travers and beats all the girls in the Distaff, wouldn't that make a compelling
00:13:01argument for her as well?
00:13:04Well, John, I actually have been texting Mike Rapoli back and forth.
00:13:08He said, quote, unquote, it's very unlikely she goes in the Travers.
00:13:12So, and yeah, but I mean, you know, a lot of hypotheticals there.
00:13:15I mean, but I just wanted to interject that.
00:13:18Yeah, no, that's that's maybe maybe when he hears this podcast, he'll realize
00:13:21that if she has an inside track to be horse of the year, then, you know,
00:13:24he'll run her against the boys again.
00:13:26But, you know, I think I think at this point, because it's August 3rd, we're
00:13:29all making hypothetical assumptions.
00:13:31You know, if these horses continue to do well, it's really as we all know,
00:13:34it's really going to come down to the race records and what they do in October
00:13:37and November, quite frankly, because they're all so close to me.
00:13:41And I think this discussion is exactly why we're talking about it.
00:13:45There's no real clear cut horse, but certainly whoever wins their
00:13:49respective division in the Breeders' Cup race and the prep is most likely
00:13:54going to be on the ballot for the top three.
00:13:56And then we'll see at that.
00:13:57But it's interesting.
00:13:59There's no clear cut horse.
00:14:00It's not like we're sitting here saying, you know, Rich Strike, because he
00:14:03won the Derby, is going to be horse of the year if he does well.
00:14:06Or Epicenter, if he wins, you know, another race is going to be.
00:14:10There's a lot of horses right now, as of the first week of August,
00:14:13that could be horse of the year.
00:14:15And quite frankly, this is when, you know, the champions are made,
00:14:18is in the fall.
00:14:20Yeah, it's interesting.
00:14:21You had the racing manager, John, trying to put Nest in the Travers
00:14:25and then having him win the Destap.
00:14:27And then we had the reporter, Bill, interrupt and say, no, John,
00:14:29Mike Rapoli says he's probably not going to do that.
00:14:31See, that's why we're in this show successful.
00:14:34We have three different personalities and three different skill sets that
00:14:37really bounce off each other.
00:14:39But yeah, to me, it's definitely not going to be one of those years where
00:14:42bricks and mortar wins horse of the year by default.
00:14:45And no disrespect to bricks and mortar, but we've had years like that before
00:14:48where it's like, God, do we really have to pick a horse of the year this year?
00:14:51This year, I think there's going to be, you know, probably at least three
00:14:54or four different horses that you could make a strong, strong case for.
00:14:58And we're looking forward to the Whitney and also seeing Flightline
00:15:01in the Pacific Classic try to make their cases.
00:15:03But I just wanted to mention this also from the weekend,
00:15:06we had a couple of different rising stars.
00:15:09We had three of them, two at Del Mar and one at Saratoga.
00:15:13The ones at Del Mar were Newgate, Bob Baffert and Justique for John
00:15:17Sheriffs, and then at Saratoga, I think it's at Belmont.
00:15:21At Saratoga, we had Prank, who's a daughter of Intimischief.
00:15:25I thought of the three of them, Prank was very clearly the most
00:15:28impressive one, and she was touted by her work tab too and, you know,
00:15:32was bet down to four to five and one to two, actually, I think,
00:15:36in what looked like a pretty live race and just completely obliterated
00:15:39that field for Todd Pletcher.
00:15:41And I think that she, you know, if you had to pick right now,
00:15:44she would be the favorite for the spinaway.
00:15:46Obviously, there's some time left and some two-year-olds to come out
00:15:49after the rest of the meet.
00:15:51But it leads to an interesting discussion, and we've had this question
00:15:54asked of us before, what makes a rising star?
00:15:57And, you know, it's become a pretty big thing in the industry for TDNs.
00:16:01Rising stars, a lot of people, you know, they advertise based on horses
00:16:04who are rising stars.
00:16:06And, you know, I've said this before, but there's no set criteria, really.
00:16:12Like there's no necessary checklist that we go through, and it's really just
00:16:17more of a pros and cons type thing.
00:16:19And I think, especially this time of year, we get a lot more rising stars
00:16:23because we tend to lean more towards the two-year-olds
00:16:26and the more lightly raced horses.
00:16:28Whereas if you're debuting a three-year-old in August or September,
00:16:33you know, the horse could be super impressive first out.
00:16:35But I think, in general, it's not a great sign when horses debut that late.
00:16:39So the horse has to really do something special to get that designation
00:16:43if they're debuting, like, any later than, you know, I would say March
00:16:46or April of their three-year-old season.
00:16:48The other things we focus on are the quality of the field.
00:16:52Obviously, with two-year-olds, it's sometimes tough to gauge because
00:16:55they haven't run before.
00:16:56But you can get a sense if you read the clocker reports and you look at the
00:16:59trainers and the connections of the racing and the purchase prices,
00:17:03you can get a sense of what are live looking two-year-old races.
00:17:07The other thing is, you know, win margin, time, in terms of whether
00:17:12or not they shook off pace pressure or came from off the pace
00:17:15with traffic trouble.
00:17:17Those are really the kind of things we look for.
00:17:20And, you know, it's tough to gauge, like I said, sometimes because you
00:17:23don't know what the competition is and you don't know what's behind the horse
00:17:26all the time.
00:17:27But I think, in general, sometimes it just pops.
00:17:30And sometimes it's a debate.
00:17:32Sometimes they're no-brainers.
00:17:33Like, Prank was a no-brainer.
00:17:34There was no way we were not going to make that horse a rising star.
00:17:37My Intimistive, Todd Pletcher touted with the works, ran off to a big win,
00:17:42stopped the clock in under 1.10.
00:17:44So we'd be morons not to make that horse a rising star.
00:17:46But then there are other ones that are a little more murky and tough
00:17:50to figure out.
00:17:51But, you know, I wonder from an outside perspective, since you guys aren't part
00:17:55of that process, I know Bill's complained about some rising stars not made
00:17:59in the past.
00:18:00But you have, Bill.
00:18:01I remember it.
00:18:02I remember the discussion at the office.
00:18:04But, like, what do you guys think should be, like, the most weighted
00:18:07characteristics when it comes to conversations like that?
00:18:10Well, Joe, I think you touched on all of them.
00:18:13And, you know, there's a lot of objectivity to that.
00:18:16But I want to kind of twist this in another direction.
00:18:20Obviously, one thing you don't take into account is a buyer number.
00:18:24And, you know, right now in horse racing, the buyer numbers are just people
00:18:30are just, like, you know, like religious zealots when it comes to the numbers.
00:18:35And, you know, it's interesting because this is now from among those three
00:18:39horses, there's a very interesting scenario and a debate now with Justine.
00:18:45Now, everything you said, if I were doing the rising stars, yeah,
00:18:49I would have made her a rising star because she was so visually impressive
00:18:53in the race.
00:18:54You're trained by John Sheriffs.
00:18:55You know, probably, you know, not probably, you know, John Sheriffs.
00:18:58No way she was cranked up to go in a five and a half furlong race.
00:19:02And she, you know, closed from last and won so easily.
00:19:06But she got a 72 buyer number.
00:19:09So, you know, what is what do you do with a horse like that?
00:19:13You know, that's not a number that makes her, you know, a future star.
00:19:19You know, the Breeders' Cup juvenile fillies, what that race usually go in the
00:19:23low 90s or something like that, at the best of my recollection.
00:19:26So, you know, it's interesting.
00:19:27We're going to find out, you know, whether those how relevant those numbers were.
00:19:31And I do find that I think the hardest numbers to make are the ones that are
00:19:36the worst harbingers of future success are two-year-old maiden races.
00:19:41I think it's very hard for them to make the numbers.
00:19:43And I've seen plenty of horses that broke their maidens impressively,
00:19:47did not get good numbers, and came back and were successful.
00:19:51So I think this horse will be fine.
00:19:53But, you know, I think in some respects it's good that you don't take those
00:19:56numbers into account because if you did, basically, okay, this horse,
00:19:59two-year-old first-time starter, you know, paid $28 and is trained by, you know,
00:20:04a second-tier trainer.
00:20:06Oh, but he got a 90 buyer number.
00:20:08You know, we'll make it a rising star.
00:20:09So, you know, I just thought that was sort of an interesting twist on this
00:20:13because, you know, how good is Just Eat?
00:20:15Well, right now from the buyer number, not a superstar.
00:20:19Other factors tell you otherwise.
00:20:22And because the process is subjective, it's a little difficult to, like,
00:20:28quantify it.
00:20:29And I know you guys have to use the eye test as probably the most prominent
00:20:33thing because if it was just based on breeding,
00:20:38then you wouldn't have a majority of horses even eligible for it, you know,
00:20:44to be a rising star.
00:20:45If it was just horses that were, like, with super trainers, again,
00:20:48you would carve out the majority of horses that run on a day-to-day basis.
00:20:52So I know that the process has to be difficult for you guys as far as,
00:20:56you know, trying to spotlight who the up-and-comers are because, really,
00:21:01the rising star in essence is you're trying to project a horse that's going
00:21:06to continue to do well.
00:21:07It's not just this horse ran really well going five-eighths of a mile or this
00:21:11horse won really impressively going five-and-a-half.
00:21:13I don't put words in your mouth, Joe,
00:21:15but I think the whole premise of the rising star is that these are horses that
00:21:19we feel have a promising future going further in their career and going longer,
00:21:24hopefully, in distance.
00:21:25And I think that's why some of the pedigrees get discounted immediately and
00:21:29some of the racetracks get discounted immediately.
00:21:31Like, I don't remember the last time there was a rising star at Woodbine or some
00:21:36of the other smaller racetracks, for example,
00:21:38that may have had impressive winners, but, you know,
00:21:42the field competition wasn't as good or the time wasn't as good or they're kind
00:21:47of from a, you know, they were a $5,000 yearling purchase.
00:21:50So I think all those factors kind of go into it.
00:21:53I would love to see it if it was more blind in the sense of, you know,
00:21:57you don't look at pedigree, you don't look at where the horse is coming from,
00:22:00but I think that's impossible because we all know all the information and that's
00:22:04not realistic.
00:22:05You know,
00:22:06the thing with Justique that I thought was most impressive was the way that she
00:22:10came down the lane and, you know,
00:22:13Espinosa really didn't not only didn't move his hands,
00:22:16but at the end there's a picture that will show at the end when the horse hits
00:22:20the wire, he actually accidentally drops the whip.
00:22:23And it almost looks like it's a mic drop, like, yep, that was it.
00:22:26You know, end of story.
00:22:27I don't need to say anything else because she was so good.
00:22:30But this weekend in particular,
00:22:32I thought it was really interesting that, you know,
00:22:35normally for two-year-old races, if a horse has experience,
00:22:39they usually have an advantage over the other horses.
00:22:41In Justique's race, the top three finishers were all first-time starters.
00:22:45In Prank's race, the top six finishers were first-time starters.
00:22:50So what you're seeing now is some of these programs unleashing their top
00:22:54two-year-olds.
00:22:55And unleashing, you know, the dragons in their groups.
00:22:59And to me, that's going to be really exciting.
00:23:02And it's going to be an opportunity for you guys to identify more rising
00:23:05stars.
00:23:06I can't argue with you on Prank and Newgate and Justique.
00:23:10And I think Capture the Flag also, a first-time starter.
00:23:13Yeah.
00:23:14And I forgot one too, on Sunday, that the Muharrar horse, Be Your Best.
00:23:17Yeah, Be Your Best of Horacio De Paz on the turf.
00:23:20Yeah.
00:23:21So there were five horses there and, you know,
00:23:23Be Your Best actually was the one I was going to mention because she's a
00:23:26filly that didn't have any of those boxes checked.
00:23:28She's not from a big outfit.
00:23:30She's not from a big super trainer.
00:23:31She's not well-bred.
00:23:32She wasn't an expensive horse.
00:23:34And she ran on the turf, you know.
00:23:36So she really did above and beyond to go ahead and get the mantle of a
00:23:41rising star.
00:23:42But I thought Capture the Flag was an interesting one also because, again,
00:23:44Bill, to your point, you know, that's a quality rolled colt that ran a 61
00:23:49buyer, which is not great.
00:23:51But first-time starter should go longer.
00:23:54And trained by Shug McGahee, who we all know doesn't, you know,
00:23:57crank.
00:23:58We talk about John Sharif's not cranking on these horses.
00:24:00You know, Shug doesn't even crank on a three-year-old,
00:24:02let alone as a two-year-old first time out.
00:24:04So, you know, there were five really good candidates, I think,
00:24:07for this weekend that were going in there.
00:24:10And then the other thing I want to say, and then I'll shut up, is, you know,
00:24:13we were talking about how good Gunrunner has been doing as a sire.
00:24:17You know, last week he had the first two finishers in the Haskell with
00:24:21Cyberknife and Teva.
00:24:22This week he had, you know, the first, third,
00:24:24and fourth horses in the Amsterdam.
00:24:27I love it that Into Mischief had Prank, who was a rising star,
00:24:31ran a 91 buyer.
00:24:32Newgate, who was, you know, ran one first-time out, ran an 80 buyer.
00:24:36And we have Wonderwheel, who's undefeated in two starts,
00:24:39and is an Into Mischief.
00:24:40It's almost like Gunrunner had the success and Into Mischief was like,
00:24:43yeah, Gunrunner, you had a really good run, but hold my beer.
00:24:46For sure.
00:24:49I mean, those are the two hottest sires in America right now, I would say.
00:24:53And just to wrap up this discussion,
00:24:56I think the objective of what we're trying to do with rising stars,
00:24:59to me at least, is to predict graded stakes winners.
00:25:02Now, you know, a few people might argue with that.
00:25:05Somebody might say graded stakes performers or black type stakes winners.
00:25:09To me,
00:25:10it's successful if a rising star becomes a graded stakes winner.
00:25:13And I think TDN has a pretty good track record with that kind of thing.
00:25:16You know, there are only so many graded stakes winners,
00:25:18although some would say too many, some including us on this show.
00:25:21But, you know,
00:25:22it's one of those things where there's so many factors that I wouldn't,
00:25:27I wasn't working this weekend,
00:25:28I would not have made Capture the Flag a rising star just because of the
00:25:31time it was like 106 and something,
00:25:33which was not fast for five and a half earnings.
00:25:35But he sure looked good, looked the part, big muscle horse.
00:25:38And like you said,
00:25:39Suge is not necessarily known for having horses cranked up to win five and
00:25:43a half furlong two-year-old races first out.
00:25:45But, you know,
00:25:46that's a factor too is factoring trainers and trainer patterns,
00:25:49like you guys say with John Sheriffs.
00:25:51And it works the other way too,
00:25:52like with Wesley Ward's horses sometimes like, you know,
00:25:55no disrespect to Wesley,
00:25:57but a lot of those horses that pop and win those by a ton at Keeneland don't
00:26:01necessarily go on to do all that much.
00:26:03You know,
00:26:04he's had some obviously like Golden Pal and Lady Aurelia who have become
00:26:07superstars.
00:26:08And those were horses that we identified early,
00:26:11but there are a lot of them that kind of fizzle out over the summer and never
00:26:15really live up to that big first out win.
00:26:18So that's another thing that, you know,
00:26:20in the opposite of the horses who debut a little bit too late for us to want
00:26:24to make them rising stars,
00:26:25the really,
00:26:26really early ones in April of the two-year-old season,
00:26:29we kind of discount some of those as well,
00:26:31because you just,
00:26:32you don't historically get a lot of great horses coming out of those big
00:26:37two-year-old maiden races really early in the season,
00:26:40but it's an interesting discussion.
00:26:41And, you know,
00:26:42we have debates about them in the TDN Slack and back when we used to be in
00:26:45the office and,
00:26:46you know,
00:26:47sometimes we vote and sometimes there's a couple and say no,
00:26:50and then a majority says yes,
00:26:51or the other way around.
00:26:52So it's an interesting process and we appreciate that people care.
00:26:56I think sometimes people care a little bit too much and bug us about making
00:27:00rising stars,
00:27:01which we honestly really don't like and we wish people would stop doing that
00:27:04unless you want to come right out races with us.
00:27:06You shouldn't have an opinion on who should be a rising star,
00:27:08but nevertheless,
00:27:09it is flattering that people really care about that designation.
00:27:13I think it makes us accountable in a way that because people care about it so
00:27:18much that we really have a thoughtful discussion and a thoughtful process in
00:27:22terms of making rising stars.
00:27:24Joe, can I ask one question about it?
00:27:26So I know that normally I would say the majority of horses that are deemed a
00:27:30rising star is usually after their first race.
00:27:33Is there any kind of criteria as far as like if a horse runs a really bad race
00:27:37first time out or it doesn't hit the board first time out,
00:27:39but then one runs really impressively later on where that would make it a
00:27:43rising star?
00:27:44Because again,
00:27:45you do project it to be a great stake winner.
00:27:47It's a good question.
00:27:48And I think that's that we generally try to just make them in the first or
00:27:52second start.
00:27:53Sometimes in the third start,
00:27:54anything beyond that,
00:27:55even if the horse is crazy impressive,
00:27:57we tend to not make those horses rising stars because we want to identify them
00:28:01early on.
00:28:02But I think,
00:28:03you know,
00:28:04if the second race is so impressive,
00:28:06we kind of just will disregard what the first race was if it's that
00:28:09impressive.
00:28:10But on the other hand,
00:28:11the first race can be instructive in terms of what to think about the horse
00:28:15after their second race.
00:28:16And Steve,
00:28:17Steve Chirac at TDN does a good job.
00:28:18He has his second chances column,
00:28:20which is basically horses who ran really well first out and ran second or
00:28:23third or fourth and horses to look for next time out.
00:28:26And that's kind of what we look at.
00:28:28Like,
00:28:29I remember the first rising star I ever made,
00:28:31and I'm still really proud of this one to this day was Arrogate.
00:28:33He was the first one that I made the call on.
00:28:36And I remember his,
00:28:37his first race,
00:28:38he had a troubled trip going six furlongs at Los Alamitos and just came
00:28:42flying late and missed and was third.
00:28:44So I had my antennas up for him next time out.
00:28:47And then when he went to the front and,
00:28:48and,
00:28:49you know,
00:28:50one off by like five and a half lengths,
00:28:51I was like,
00:28:52this horse I think is really good.
00:28:53So,
00:28:54you know,
00:28:55if the first race is so bad,
00:28:56but the second race is so good,
00:28:57we can draw a line through the first race.
00:28:58But also in general,
00:28:59we try to look for those horses who maybe had trouble or maybe just got
00:29:03going too late,
00:29:04but galloped out really well in their first race.
00:29:06And then if they can validate that in their second race,
00:29:09we consider that,
00:29:10you know,
00:29:11as criteria as positive criteria to make them a rising star.
00:29:14Do you get nervous when you make a rising star?
00:29:16And the next time they run,
00:29:17are you like nervous as to see how they run or you don't care?
00:29:20No,
00:29:21I'm only nervous when I don't make John Green's horses,
00:29:23rising stars,
00:29:24and then they come back and win graded stakes.
00:29:26Next up.
00:29:27That's the only time.
00:29:28Thankfully,
00:29:29it doesn't happen too often for you.
00:29:30You don't have to worry about that too much.
00:29:31Good thing.
00:29:33It's too off the top of my head,
00:29:34John.
00:29:35And where did they start?
00:29:37Where did they,
00:29:38where did they win?
00:29:39Cornish won Saratoga,
00:29:41but it was a New York bread race.
00:29:42That's another thing.
00:29:43We factor in the level of competition and the state bread stuff too.
00:29:45Yeah.
00:29:46Yeah.
00:29:47All right.
00:29:48Very good.
00:29:50The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:29:52There were grade one wins from coast to coast for Keeneland September sales
00:29:55grads last Saturday with Jackie's Warrior and the Vanderbilt and American
00:29:58Theorem and the Bing Crosby looked pretty good as well.
00:30:01Also all five contenders in the Jim Dandy were graduates of the 2020
00:30:04Keeneland September sale epicenter,
00:30:06but one that impressively was a $260,000 purchase at Keeneland September
00:30:10for Winchell Thoroughbreds.
00:30:12Your next opportunity awaits at this year's Keeneland September sale,
00:30:15which starts Monday, September 12th, not that far away, less than six weeks.
00:30:19So get prepared for that.
00:30:21And Chris McGrath's latest Keeneland Breeder spotlight.
00:30:24He talks to John O'Meara who bred several big winners from the summer
00:30:27headlined by grade three, quick call winner, big invasion.
00:30:30O'Meara acquired the Colts third dam back in 2000 for $55,000.
00:30:34And you can read the full story at the TDN.
00:30:36It's called Invasion, a big tribute to O'Meara.
00:30:39You should always be reading those stories.
00:30:41We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:30:45When the thoroughbred world descends upon Lexington this November,
00:30:49there is one place you need to be.
00:30:51The place where history comes alive with every championship victory.
00:30:58The place where the future is built with the fall of a gap,
00:31:02the place that exists to be the heart of this industry,
00:31:06the center of it all.
00:31:08Home to the November breeding stock sale and the 2022 Breeders' Cup.
00:31:13Keeneland.
00:31:15Maximum Security proves he's the real deal
00:31:18with a gate to wire win in the Florida Derby.
00:31:20Champion three-year-old.
00:31:22Maximum Security has won the TBG.com Haskell Invitational.
00:31:2811 triple digit buyers.
00:31:30Maximum Security, he smoked them in the cigar mile.
00:31:34Grade one winning four-year-old.
00:31:36Maximum Security takes them all the way in the TBG Pacific Classic.
00:31:41Secure your mare's future.
00:31:43Maximum Security.
00:31:46The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Coolmore Justify.
00:31:49Added his sixth winner over the weekend with, what we just mentioned,
00:31:52new TDN Rising star Justique.
00:31:54She's our freshman sire's second TDN Rising star,
00:31:57plus she's a half-sister to Ashford Sire Motown.
00:32:00Coolmore sire American Pharoah got his fourth grade one winner of the year
00:32:05with American Theorem in the Bing Crosby.
00:32:07American Pharoah now has more grade one winners in 2022
00:32:10than any other North American stallion.
00:32:12And Mendelson has sired three winners over the past week
00:32:15with Penny Polka at Delaware Park.
00:32:17Miracle at Saratoga and Quincy Cafe at Laurel.
00:32:20First crop sire now ranks just behind his studmate Justify
00:32:24with five winners already this year.
00:32:27So this week for the Green Group Guest of the Week,
00:32:29we'll talk to David O'Rourke,
00:32:31who is obviously the CEO of the New York Racing Association.
00:32:34A lot of big news coming out of Naira these days,
00:32:36not just at Saratoga, but with the announcement that Belmont's fall meet
00:32:40is going to be held at the Big A.
00:32:42So we've talked to David before, always a really smart and insightful guy.
00:32:45Let's talk to David O'Rourke.
00:32:47The Green Group Guest of the Week is sponsored by The Green Group,
00:32:50an accounting, tax, consulting, and advisory firm
00:32:52specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:32:54With over 500 clients in the horse business,
00:32:56they have proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:32:58Learn more about how they can help you at www.greenco.com.
00:33:03So we're thrilled to welcome back to the show,
00:33:05fresh off the Whitney draw, Naira CEO, Dave O'Rourke.
00:33:08Thanks for coming on, Dave.
00:33:10Thanks for having me, everyone.
00:33:12Great to talk to you, as always.
00:33:13Naira made some big news last week,
00:33:15announcing that the Belmont fall meet will be run at Aqueduct this fall
00:33:20because there's construction going on to have tunnels go to the infield at Belmont.
00:33:24I would talk to you about the Aqueduct thing
00:33:26because I'm such a romantic Aqueduct supporter,
00:33:28but I want to ask about the Belmont infield
00:33:30because that's kind of been one of the big unused spaces
00:33:33in New York racing for a long time.
00:33:35What are the plans?
00:33:36What are the ideas for the infield?
00:33:38Would it be something you only used on Belmont Stakes Day?
00:33:41Other festival days?
00:33:42Would there be concerts?
00:33:43What's the idea?
00:33:44The actual complete plan for the infield,
00:33:47I wouldn't say it's totally fleshed out.
00:33:49It's obviously something we would use on big days like Belmont
00:33:52and create like a different experience.
00:33:54But right now, we've, over the last several years,
00:33:57have redone all of our racetracks.
00:33:59Aqueduct is essentially new tracks.
00:34:01Up here in Saratoga, we've touched all of them, including Oklahoma.
00:34:05The Belmont training track was done several years ago.
00:34:08And the main tracks, you know, the main track
00:34:11and the two turf courses at Belmont are kind of due.
00:34:14And at the same time, we have our long-term plan
00:34:18to consolidate downstate to one facility,
00:34:21and that facility would be Belmont.
00:34:23So then you have this 50 acres plus in the infield,
00:34:26and really the time is now if you ever want to access it.
00:34:29You wouldn't want to redo these tracks and then cut the tunnel,
00:34:34especially the north side tunnel, which is large.
00:34:36It's essentially a commercial tunnel that you could bring tractor-trailer through,
00:34:40and right next to it, a pedestrian tunnel.
00:34:43There's a lot of different things.
00:34:45There's potential for parking.
00:34:47There's potential for community fields.
00:34:49Like, it's massive.
00:34:51Obviously, things like big event days like Belmont
00:34:55and a synthetic surface as well.
00:34:57And that is part of our long-term plan is to put a synthetic surface in there
00:35:02that would help us with winter racing and potentially when we're off the turf.
00:35:07So it's really the first phase of the redevelopment
00:35:12of the racing surfaces at Belmont.
00:35:15And so we'll hopefully get that, well, we will get that done this fall,
00:35:18and we'll be able to be back on them in the spring.
00:35:21And then we'll have the next iteration of what we'll tackle.
00:35:24We'll be the synthetic.
00:35:25We'll be one of the turf courses at some point, the main track as well.
00:35:29It has a clay base.
00:35:30We'd like to make it synonymous with what we've done here at Saratoga
00:35:33and Aqueduct, like an all-weather type track.
00:35:38And that's about it.
00:35:39That's what we've got so far.
00:35:41Hey, Dave, thanks for joining us.
00:35:43And it's exciting to talk to you because it's an exciting time
00:35:45for the future of New York racing.
00:35:47You guys have been talking about this for a long time,
00:35:49about what's going to happen with the two tracks, et cetera.
00:35:52And this obviously was the first step in what I would think
00:35:55is going to be a longer process.
00:35:58Is it pretty much set in stone that Aqueduct stays are numbered?
00:36:03That's my first question.
00:36:05What about where are we five, six years from now,
00:36:07so far as what racetracks make up the circuit?
00:36:11Nothing's set in stone until we can actually complete the project.
00:36:15And that would include the funding for the building.
00:36:17But in terms of our strategy and what we're putting forward, for sure.
00:36:21And in five, six years from now,
00:36:24if everything goes the way that we would like it to go,
00:36:27we would be racing at Belmont and Saratoga and not at Aqueduct.
00:36:31Right.
00:36:32And John, if you let me interject, the other question was, and again,
00:36:35I know these sometimes are things are always in motion,
00:36:39but what about the Belmont grandstand?
00:36:42Again, you could always have reserved the right to change your mind,
00:36:45the NIRA board to change their mind, but, you know,
00:36:48are we going to see a new grandstand built,
00:36:50presumably one much smaller than what we have now?
00:36:52Yeah, that is absolutely the plan.
00:36:54And that's what we've been proposing.
00:36:57Just for some numbers, the grandstand is about 1.3 million square feet.
00:37:01We think something right size would be more along the lines of 300,000
00:37:05square feet.
00:37:06And essentially where you have the, you know,
00:37:09there's the clubhouse portion and that's really where it would be.
00:37:11And then you have the grandstand portion,
00:37:13which would be opened up in a more green space.
00:37:16And that opens up a lot of possibilities on areas for, you know,
00:37:21what we can do with the turn in essence, extend the backyard,
00:37:24which now we would also have the infield, which can compliment that as well.
00:37:28And David,
00:37:30last year you were one of the key presenters in the Jockey Club round table
00:37:35discussions. And during that presentation,
00:37:37you talked about integrity, safety, and sustainability of the sport.
00:37:41And I really feel like that Naira is at the forefront of,
00:37:44of all of those ideals.
00:37:46Can you give the audience an idea of what things are coming down the pike in
00:37:50the future that will, again,
00:37:52continue to instill integrity, safety, and sustainability?
00:37:55Well,
00:37:56in terms of integrity of Heisa rolling out and then the medication should
00:37:59roll out beginning of next year. In terms of, you know, in safety,
00:38:04really a lot of it starts with the surfaces and that's one of the, you know,
00:38:08the tracks at Belmont are some of the better tracks,
00:38:11but we want to have the best tracks period.
00:38:13And those turf courses in particular haven't been redone in 50 plus years.
00:38:18It's really a core competency of ours.
00:38:22We have Glenn Kozak, who's our senior VP of capital projects. I mean,
00:38:27I might be biased,
00:38:28but he's the best track person in the country and possibly one of the best in
00:38:31the world and redoing these Belmont surfaces we think is fundamental for one
00:38:36of our core competencies slash advantages is just to have the best surfaces
00:38:41and we've done them all. Now it's time to do Belmont.
00:38:46I just wanted to follow up on that.
00:38:47Is one of the goals in winterizing Belmont to get the breeders cup again,
00:38:51because it's been a long time. It's been since 2005.
00:38:54Belmont is obviously one of the core pieces of the fall racing schedule and
00:38:58one of the historic tracks in America.
00:39:00Are you guys looking to get the breeders cup back?
00:39:02Yeah, I wouldn't even call it a goal. I'd say it's an expectation for sure.
00:39:06Yep.
00:39:07That's a solid yes.
00:39:08Yep.
00:39:09Great.
00:39:10Yeah, sure.
00:39:11Getting back to the redo of Belmont,
00:39:14we've learned and been told that the configuration of the courses is not going
00:39:18to change.
00:39:19So you're still going to have this mile and a half oval,
00:39:22which, you know,
00:39:23obviously for Belmont stakes works perfectly, but you know,
00:39:27you can make an argument that it's not the best circumference for day in and
00:39:31day out racing.
00:39:32Was there any thought given to making it a mile and eighth track?
00:39:36I don't think you would even consider a mile. And if not, why not?
00:39:41There were considerations in terms of just laying out what we could do.
00:39:46A lot of different iterations.
00:39:47One of them included moving a turf course to the outer and then changing the
00:39:52middle course actually into a synthetic.
00:39:55There's a lot to that. There's a lot of tradition. We, you know,
00:39:59we've had some conversations with our board.
00:40:01We have a planning committee and it's not an easy decision on that.
00:40:04Now, when we do redo the main surface, the mile and a half,
00:40:09I believe the goal will be to install it in a way where it could be
00:40:14converted to in synthetic at some point in the future.
00:40:16Cause we're trying to make decisions where we'll in 20 years, 10, 15 years,
00:40:21we wouldn't want to invest a huge amount of money where you really can't pivot
00:40:25off of it. So I understand exactly that question. It's,
00:40:29it's a tough question,
00:40:30but for now we're looking at the same configuration and with a synthetic
00:40:35either being a mile and a mile and 16th on the inner.
00:40:39David, I want to take it for a second,
00:40:41because obviously you've been a mainstay in Naira for, for years. And,
00:40:44and again, you know, made them one of the best racing circuits in the world.
00:40:49When you sit back and you look at the calendar of races that come up is there
00:40:54a specific day that you look at and you're like,
00:40:57I'm really going to enjoy watching that day's card. Is it Belmont day?
00:41:00Is it Whitney day? Is it Alabama day?
00:41:02What's your favorite day in racing for Naira?
00:41:05That's a really good question. Opening day Saratoga.
00:41:09Cause it's there's a lot of, it's a really busy time of year for us.
00:41:13We go through the Belmont stakes and then we're coming up here,
00:41:15but I'd say opening day at Saratoga is just, you kick it off and, you know,
00:41:19for the next 40 days or the next 39 after that day you know,
00:41:23you're really got, you're the focus of Thoroughbred racing in North America.
00:41:27So it's, it's pretty cool. So yeah, that would be my answer on that.
00:41:33There's been a lot of discussion recently about the greatest stakes in the
00:41:36stakes calendar,
00:41:37how there's some overlap and some redundancies that are creating a lot of
00:41:41short fields. Like I think about Belmont day and in terms of star power,
00:41:44it was everything you could possibly want.
00:41:46It was basically every great horse in America right now,
00:41:49but the fields were five, six horses.
00:41:51And that's certainly not unique to New York racing.
00:41:53Santa Anita has had a big problem with that,
00:41:55but I think it's on not only on the American great stakes committee,
00:41:58but on individual tracks and businesses to try to figure out how to best
00:42:02construct that stake schedule.
00:42:03Is that a conversation that you guys have had in terms of trying to space out
00:42:07stakes a little bit more so we have a better betting product and why or why
00:42:10not?
00:42:11Yeah, we actually have had the conversation at a kind of a high level.
00:42:15Just prior to, I think Bill, you had that article on this exact topic.
00:42:18And I agree with that article a hundred percent.
00:42:21So we've had the conversation and this summer there will be some racing folks
00:42:25because these are decisions that the racing folks need to make.
00:42:28But what I can, from my perspective, you've got, you know,
00:42:32the fall crop has dropped the number of graded state or stakes period has not.
00:42:36So is there a dilution effect?
00:42:38And are you seeing that dilution effect in terms of what you're saying?
00:42:41And it's correct.
00:42:43So there's two things, there's spacing and the quantity.
00:42:46And I think both of those things need to be looked at.
00:42:48We don't have a pattern committee or like,
00:42:50we really don't have anyone who lays out that pattern.
00:42:53So I think the dialogue will start, you know, historically,
00:42:57I don't know if there was enough communication slash coordination across some
00:43:02of the major jurisdictions on where we put these races.
00:43:05We shouldn't be trying to cannibalize each other.
00:43:07It's how do we create a series that, you know,
00:43:09ultimately the series ends at the Breeders' Cup.
00:43:12So, yeah, I think there's a lot of work to do here.
00:43:14And I think it'll get better.
00:43:15And I think these races are really good,
00:43:17but it would be a lot better if there's eight or nine.
00:43:21David, you've been a proponent openly of fixed odds wagering.
00:43:26But as we know now, you know, Naira is not involved in it.
00:43:29You don't send your signal to Mammoth for their fixed odds.
00:43:32You don't have fixed odds for the Naira races, et cetera.
00:43:35But, you know, if you could just sort of say, you know,
00:43:37where is this all headed?
00:43:39And, you know, Naira is an organization.
00:43:42Is everybody still very much believing that fixed odds are a big part of the
00:43:46future and what needs to happen so that you guys get involved in the fixed odds
00:43:50wagering?
00:43:51Sure.
00:43:53Yes, we do think fixed odds and specifically the sports books bring the
00:43:58opportunity to access a massive customer base.
00:44:00And, you know,
00:44:01fixed odds would allow racing to kind of offer some different wagers.
00:44:05We, you know, we do believe that pari-mutuals,
00:44:09the pari-mutual pools are very,
00:44:12very important and we have to be careful as we add products.
00:44:15So ideally, and I'll go back to answer the question.
00:44:19What, what we would,
00:44:20Naira would need to actually engage in fixed odds in North America,
00:44:23but our ideally we would,
00:44:26we'd like to see pari-mutual picked up by the sports books and then to let
00:44:30her in fixed odds and go from there rather than go with fixed odds and then try
00:44:35and push pari-mutual onto those platforms.
00:44:37So our preference is to get pari-mutual established and then to introduce
00:44:41fixed odds where you can do a lot of neat stuff with proposition bets,
00:44:45things you can make off the fly.
00:44:47There's certain bets that are hard to do pari-mutually that are much easier to
00:44:50do with fixed.
00:44:52Conversely,
00:44:53there's some value in some of the pari-mutual bets,
00:44:57especially like the exotics that I don't think you'll really see replicated on
00:45:01the fixed odds side because of the risk dynamic there from New York.
00:45:06We've,
00:45:07we've actually have requested to allow our content to go into New Jersey and
00:45:11you know,
00:45:12on a limited basis,
00:45:13it's really a one place show.
00:45:14I believe the issue that we face and it's actually very,
00:45:19it makes sense.
00:45:20The interstate horse racing act,
00:45:23there's a stipulation that says that you can cross state lines with a racing
00:45:27product.
00:45:28As long as the wager is legal in both jurisdictions at the moment,
00:45:31fixed odds on horse racing is not legal in New York state.
00:45:35So that's what would need to change.
00:45:36We,
00:45:37we we had proposed I believe Senator Adabo,
00:45:41I think had a bill that didn't,
00:45:43we didn't go through,
00:45:44but we'll come back to that.
00:45:45I don't really think there's that much pushback against it.
00:45:48There's just been so much changing on the wagering,
00:45:51specifically sports betting landscape in New York.
00:45:54I think we're just going to wait our turn.
00:45:56So you we'll keep pushing on that,
00:45:58but just to,
00:45:59you know,
00:46:00we do understand that we,
00:46:02we don't really want to just go out with fixed odds.
00:46:04We want to bring paramutual first onto these platforms because they may not
00:46:07adopt it if we don't go in that direction.
00:46:11And this is going to be redundant,
00:46:12but you guys have a big stakes weekend coming up this weekend where you're,
00:46:15you're given away you know,
00:46:17over two and a half million dollars in,
00:46:18in purses you know,
00:46:20keyed with two,
00:46:21$1 million races.
00:46:23When,
00:46:24when you get a field like you have in the Whitney with American revolution and
00:46:28hot rod,
00:46:29Charlie Olympia life is good.
00:46:31Obviously,
00:46:32you know,
00:46:33where,
00:46:34where you have so many superstars coming into this race what's your hope when,
00:46:37when you get a race like this,
00:46:39like the Whitney,
00:46:40is it,
00:46:41is it the dead heat?
00:46:42Is it you know,
00:46:43to have a,
00:46:44you know,
00:46:45to have a bigger field.
00:46:46Is it the ability to win?
00:46:47When,
00:46:48when you look at that field,
00:46:49what,
00:46:50what is,
00:46:51what is your wish and desire when,
00:46:52when,
00:46:53when the race is over?
00:46:54Well,
00:46:55it's a really good competitive field.
00:46:56That's what you want going into it.
00:46:57And now you just want a clean race and everyone to enjoy it.
00:47:00So I don't really have any expectations.
00:47:02One,
00:47:03a nice,
00:47:04safe,
00:47:05clean race fields competitive.
00:47:06Couldn't really ask for more on that one on the,
00:47:08from the older division.
00:47:09So we're happy with that.
00:47:10The field is really befitting of,
00:47:12of the Whitney,
00:47:13the best non breeders cup,
00:47:14handicap division race on the calendar.
00:47:16So last question for me,
00:47:17you know,
00:47:18it's similar to the,
00:47:19to the race and calendar question that I just asked.
00:47:21There was a lot of discussion about the spacing of the triple
00:47:23crown.
00:47:24You guys came and you in particular came out strongly in favor of
00:47:28the tradition and the traditional spot of the Belmont on the calendar.
00:47:31Obviously the Preakness is in a tougher spot being the middle jewel in
00:47:34two weeks after the Derby and three weeks before the Belmont.
00:47:37Where do you stand?
00:47:38Where does Naira stand right now on keeping the Belmont where it is?
00:47:42And, you know,
00:47:43if the Preakness did move,
00:47:44would you consider adjusting as well?
00:47:48It seemed to me what,
00:47:49as we were going through that conversation,
00:47:51it seemed a little rushed.
00:47:52Like if we're going to touch the triple crown,
00:47:54I would,
00:47:55from my point of view,
00:47:56we'd want input across the board and from people like yourselves and
00:48:00really from the public.
00:48:01I don't really feel like anyone feels like it's broken.
00:48:04You know,
00:48:05in terms of the Preakness,
00:48:06you could say they're in a tough spot or they're always going to get
00:48:08the Derby winner.
00:48:09You know,
00:48:10Belmont in a sense can be one of the best races of the year or,
00:48:14you know,
00:48:15depending on what happens,
00:48:17maybe we're in a tough spot,
00:48:19but moving something like that,
00:48:21I think is something that needs to be debated and discussed a lot
00:48:26and not off the cuff.
00:48:28I mean,
00:48:29that was really my point.
00:48:30I don't know if we may be open to it,
00:48:32if that's really where the public and like the stakeholders in the
00:48:36industry want to go,
00:48:38but I don't think it's something that really wants,
00:48:40because what could happen is if one person moves,
00:48:42it can kind of create a cascade effect where everyone else has to react.
00:48:46I'm just hoping that that's not the way it would play out.
00:48:48All right,
00:48:49Dave,
00:48:50thank you so much for coming on.
00:48:51We know you're a busy guy.
00:48:52Saratoga is going better than ever.
00:48:53Somehow every year it gets better.
00:48:55Thanks for the time,
00:48:56Dave.
00:48:57All right.
00:48:59Thank you,
00:49:00Dave.
00:49:01The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group,
00:49:03an accounting tax consulting and advisory firm specializing in the
00:49:05thoroughbred industry.
00:49:06The guest of the week,
00:49:07Dave O'Rourke will receive a free one hour tax consultation.
00:49:10Learn more at greenco.com.
00:49:12We'll be right back after this message from the Green Group.
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00:49:51a five time grade one winner with over 6 million in earnings.
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00:50:13Accelerate stands to continue his grandsire's legacy at Lane's End.
00:50:21The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Lane's End.
00:50:23This week's Lane's End Stallion of the Week is Catalina Cruiser,
00:50:26who was one of my favorites when he was running.
00:50:28He was represented this year by his first crop of yearlings.
00:50:31Son of Eugene Rags,
00:50:32had five yearlings sell at the Fasig-Tipton July Sale,
00:50:35headlined by a $100,000 quote out of She's Trouble.
00:50:38He's got four yearlings selling next week at the Saratoga Sale,
00:50:41including the half brother to recent grade three Monmouth Oaks winner,
00:50:45Shahama.
00:50:46And he'll be represented by another five yearlings at the Fasig-Tipton New York
00:50:49Bread Sale.
00:50:50So get in early on those Catalina Cruisers because I think they're going to
00:50:53blow up once they hit the track.
00:50:55All right.
00:50:56So I was on vacation last week and honestly,
00:50:58it was a pleasure with all the Heisel legal bullshit going on,
00:51:01not to have to pay attention to it.
00:51:03I kind of got a little bit of a refresher this morning.
00:51:06I was reading about the injunction that's happening in West Virginia and Texas.
00:51:10And now there's jockeys that are suing and Jockey's Guild is suing.
00:51:14So this is why we have Bill Finley here.
00:51:16He's the reporter.
00:51:17He has to pay attention to this stuff.
00:51:19Bill,
00:51:20what should I care about and what are some of the,
00:51:23what's some of the fallout of the past week's legal back and forth?
00:51:27Well,
00:51:28Joe,
00:51:29thanks for that introduction,
00:51:30but I'm trying as hard as I can not to pay attention to this because it's,
00:51:33I mean,
00:51:34it just gives you a headache is all it does.
00:51:37And,
00:51:38you know,
00:51:39honestly,
00:51:40TD Thornton's done a great job with this.
00:51:42He's been helping,
00:51:43we've been doing the coverage together,
00:51:44but I mean,
00:51:45there's so many lawsuits out there right now.
00:51:47I've lost track.
00:51:48I mean,
00:51:49honestly,
00:51:50the latest though,
00:51:51however,
00:51:52was one where the Jockey's Guild got three,
00:51:55got three jockeys to individually sue Hyza.
00:51:58Graydon Van Dyke is one of them.
00:52:01And what they're obviously trying to do here is,
00:52:04so go back up a little bit.
00:52:08We had the successful injunction granted in the motion filed by the Jockey's
00:52:13Guild,
00:52:14West Virginia and Louisiana.
00:52:15So the Hyza rules are not in effect in those two States.
00:52:18The Jockey's Guild wants the Hyza rules to not be in effect anywhere pending
00:52:24the outcome of further court cases.
00:52:26So look,
00:52:27I mean,
00:52:28unless you're some sort of like,
00:52:29you know,
00:52:30legal nerd who loves getting into the deep dive into these things.
00:52:33I mean,
00:52:34you almost can't even,
00:52:35you're just,
00:52:36your head wants to explode.
00:52:37But I mean,
00:52:38I think the bigger picture,
00:52:39Joe is,
00:52:40you know,
00:52:41that this is just a mess at this point.
00:52:42And it's so much a mess that I,
00:52:43you know,
00:52:44I don't know what's up,
00:52:45what's going in each direction.
00:52:46And,
00:52:47you know,
00:52:48honestly,
00:52:49like,
00:52:50you know,
00:52:51I don't get it in,
00:52:52like,
00:52:53why is there so much vitriol out there against this thing?
00:52:56And,
00:52:57you know,
00:52:58it's,
00:52:59the name of the group and the act speaks for itself,
00:53:02integrity and safety.
00:53:04They're trying to make the game safer and they're trying to,
00:53:07you know,
00:53:08make it more honest.
00:53:10And they're trying to do that under one central authority.
00:53:13And who could be against that?
00:53:16You know,
00:53:17I mean,
00:53:18it's pointed out that they're like,
00:53:19the jockeys are against this.
00:53:20And there's several provisions in,
00:53:22in Haisa that make things better for the jockey.
00:53:25So far as protocols tracks have to take to,
00:53:28to look after their health and safety.
00:53:30So,
00:53:31you know,
00:53:32I got to think that this is going to just,
00:53:34I mean,
00:53:35I don't know where Haisa goes from here until all these lawsuits are
00:53:38settled.
00:53:39And then the other thing too,
00:53:40is,
00:53:41you know,
00:53:42the thing's been in effect for over a month.
00:53:43Now,
00:53:44have anybody noticed any major changes,
00:53:46any disruptions to racing?
00:53:47These guys come out and say,
00:53:48you know,
00:53:49we'll be irreparably harmed by Haisa.
00:53:51It's going to,
00:53:52you know,
00:53:53it's just,
00:53:54you know,
00:53:55but what it is,
00:53:56this is horse racing.
00:53:57You try to get together.
00:53:58As an industry and do something,
00:54:00and then it just blows off on you.
00:54:02And I can't say I'm surprised.
00:54:07John.
00:54:08I believe me.
00:54:09This is so above my pay grade.
00:54:11I wish I could pretend that I even understood all the legal maturations
00:54:15going on with this.
00:54:16I just sit.
00:54:17And every day I read the articles,
00:54:18you know,
00:54:19by bill and T.D.
00:54:20and I thank the Lord that they are able to disseminate it and break it
00:54:23down to somebody at my level,
00:54:25because it spins my head and I'm in a family of,
00:54:28you know,
00:54:29I have seven cousins and six of them are attorneys.
00:54:31So the legal stuff I should be able to understand,
00:54:34but this is just,
00:54:35it's so much.
00:54:36And I think so much of it is freaking nonsensical because everyone of
00:54:40the brother was,
00:54:41was,
00:54:42you know,
00:54:43raving over the fact that we needed to have railing over the fact we
00:54:45needed to have some kind of unified,
00:54:46you know,
00:54:47rulemaking and stuff like that.
00:54:48And now they're trying to break it down to where if certain specific
00:54:52jockeys are in the suit,
00:54:54then they,
00:54:55if they win,
00:54:56then they are going to be,
00:54:58you know,
00:54:59outside the scope of Heise.
00:55:00So that means that like one of the jockeys who is named as,
00:55:03as a,
00:55:04you know,
00:55:05in the lawsuit,
00:55:06if he wins,
00:55:07then he's allowed to beat the crap out of a horse down the stretch.
00:55:09But all the other jockeys can only do it in accordance with Heise rules.
00:55:12Like,
00:55:13it just doesn't,
00:55:14it doesn't make any sense.
00:55:15I'm like,
00:55:16so beside myself.
00:55:17That's why I wasn't even in the comments because it's just,
00:55:20it's so,
00:55:21so freaking stupid.
00:55:22Yep.
00:55:23I mean,
00:55:24it's like,
00:55:25like Bill was saying,
00:55:26like,
00:55:27what is the injury that has been done so far by Heise in the month that
00:55:31it's been in effect?
00:55:32Like,
00:55:33what is,
00:55:34what is the great injustice that's been done to jockeys or to trainers?
00:55:38Like literally,
00:55:39like all I've heard is a registration drive.
00:55:43We haven't had horses scratched,
00:55:44which was,
00:55:45which was a concern.
00:55:46And I just think what happens and,
00:55:49you know,
00:55:50this happens in the legal world.
00:55:51I think when there's like one entity that,
00:55:54that a lot of people are trying to get out from under is lawyers and
00:55:59plaintiffs smell blood in the water.
00:56:01And now that we've got that injunction,
00:56:03like you were saying,
00:56:04Bill in West Virginia and Louisiana,
00:56:05I just think that it's going to be,
00:56:07it's going to give free reign to everybody who has any kind of grief and
00:56:11grievance or perceived grievance whatsoever to jump in and try to say,
00:56:15well,
00:56:16the rule shouldn't apply to me now because of this,
00:56:18this,
00:56:19and this.
00:56:20And again,
00:56:21like,
00:56:22like I feel like John a little bit where it's like above my pay grade and
00:56:24it's not,
00:56:25it's I,
00:56:26I can't break down the,
00:56:27the individual letter of the law that Heise has.
00:56:30And I'm not saying that there aren't,
00:56:32you know,
00:56:33impositions and,
00:56:34and I think especially veterinarians are kind of in a tough spot now with,
00:56:38with Heise,
00:56:39you know,
00:56:40potentially being up their ass about,
00:56:41you know,
00:56:42whatever treatments they're giving.
00:56:43And,
00:56:44and,
00:56:45you know,
00:56:46I think you need to have people who really know,
00:56:48really know equine veterinary practices to,
00:56:51to kind of work hand in hand with the vets.
00:56:53And I think that that's one of the things that,
00:56:55that is a little bit of a cumbersome factor right now,
00:56:58but in terms of like the jockeys and the trainers,
00:57:00like how has,
00:57:01you know,
00:57:02please,
00:57:03and this is a legitimate question.
00:57:04This isn't a rhetorical or sarcastic question.
00:57:06Let me know.
00:57:07How has your life significantly changed in the past month that Heise has been
00:57:12an effect that I can't imagine that it's really disrupting your business that
00:57:16much.
00:57:17And I think,
00:57:18like I said,
00:57:19it's just,
00:57:20you know,
00:57:21people don't want,
00:57:22so a lot of people do not want this,
00:57:24this overarching body,
00:57:25you know,
00:57:26handling their sport or,
00:57:27you know,
00:57:28their state.
00:57:29And they just will find any kind of legal justification to try to sue to
00:57:32get out from,
00:57:33from up under it.
00:57:34And it's just,
00:57:35it's tiresome.
00:57:36And it,
00:57:37the more this goes on,
00:57:38the more lawsuits we get like this,
00:57:40the more I'm just tempted to throw my hands up and be like,
00:57:42well,
00:57:43we tried,
00:57:44you know,
00:57:45we,
00:57:46we got this bill passed and we got some people who,
00:57:48you know,
00:57:49theoretically have the best interest of racing,
00:57:50trying to unify everything in this sport,
00:57:52which I think we all agree desperately needs unification.
00:57:56And yet we just,
00:57:57we can't just let it play out.
00:57:59And it is a bit different story.
00:58:01If it had been going on for a year and there were all these problems and all
00:58:04these fires to put out,
00:58:05then it's one thing,
00:58:06but we're a month into this and already people can't stand it.
00:58:10And they're trying to flip it over.
00:58:12I just don't get it.
00:58:13How in this industry,
00:58:14we talk,
00:58:15we talk a good game about getting everything under one roof.
00:58:18And then once we try to do it,
00:58:20there are 5,000 splinter groups who are like,
00:58:22I don't want that.
00:58:23So I'm going to do what I can to stop it.
00:58:25And let me,
00:58:26let me just add one more thing that,
00:58:28that is infuriating to me about this.
00:58:30So,
00:58:31you know,
00:58:32people read through the rules and immediately started complaining about
00:58:35medication rules and,
00:58:37and,
00:58:38you know,
00:58:39they don't know what they're talking about and they should have horsemen in
00:58:40there.
00:58:41And I understand that,
00:58:42that they should have trainers involved in veterinarians for that matter,
00:58:45involved in the rulemaking,
00:58:47because ultimately they are going to be the stewards that are going to have
00:58:49to carry out the rules and they're going to know what things can and can't
00:58:52work.
00:58:53Okay.
00:58:54But there was an outcry about.
00:58:56Um,
00:58:57you know,
00:58:58the shoeing issues and,
00:58:59and that,
00:59:00you know,
00:59:01that,
00:59:02that they were wrong and that they need to be updated.
00:59:03Now we've had these rules in place since July 1st.
00:59:06It is now August 3rd.
00:59:07Let's say it's a month.
00:59:08So once the outcry came out about the shoeing issues and everything like
00:59:12that,
00:59:13Heise et al brought together trainers and blacksmith and said,
00:59:17what should the rule be?
00:59:18Basically?
00:59:19I mean,
00:59:20I'm paraphrasing,
00:59:21but basically they're like,
00:59:22what should the rules be?
00:59:23They updated the rules and now new rules are in effect,
00:59:25which is great.
00:59:26I heard people complaining about,
00:59:27well,
00:59:28you know,
00:59:29look,
00:59:30the rules,
00:59:31the rules are so bad that they're changing them on the fly.
00:59:32No,
00:59:33they're actually being proactive.
00:59:34When was the last time a government entity,
00:59:36a government entity,
00:59:37for God's sake,
00:59:38came in and said,
00:59:39give us your thoughts.
00:59:40And within a month,
00:59:41they changed the rules to make it to exactly the way people want it.
00:59:45So you can't have it both ways.
00:59:46People,
00:59:47you can't have it where,
00:59:48you know,
00:59:49Oh,
00:59:50I don't want to be under the rules.
00:59:51And these are so,
00:59:52you know,
00:59:53and they're so strict.
00:59:54And they're like,
00:59:55go ahead and let's,
00:59:56let's talk about it.
00:59:57And how should we make this change?
00:59:58And better than they say,
00:59:59Oh,
01:00:00well,
01:00:01look,
01:00:02they screwed it up because it should have been right from the first wife.
01:00:03It's just maddening.
01:00:04People are so freak.
01:00:05People are beautiful.
01:00:06People are beautiful.
01:00:07They just,
01:00:08they always want to complain.
01:00:09And look,
01:00:10I understand if people want to complain about Bill Finley's writing,
01:00:11I get it.
01:00:12I'll jump in there.
01:00:13They want to complain to Joe Bianca.
01:00:14She'd never take a vacation because the show sucks without him.
01:00:16I get it.
01:00:17I understand.
01:00:18But for God's sake,
01:00:19man,
01:00:20let's all start rolling in the same direction so we can make this industry
01:00:22better and actually around for another decade or two.
01:00:24But you know what?
01:00:25And,
01:00:26and just like Joe said,
01:00:27here's the thing.
01:00:28And,
01:00:29and I'd like to,
01:00:30we first,
01:00:31I genuinely don't understand what people are upset about or so upset about
01:00:35upset to the point where there's like,
01:00:37it's almost like,
01:00:38you know,
01:00:39hatred,
01:00:40like anger and nastiness.
01:00:42And,
01:00:43you know,
01:00:44if,
01:00:45if they have any legitimate beefs,
01:00:46maybe they do.
01:00:47They have done a very poor job of articulating them.
01:00:51Yeah.
01:00:52And,
01:00:53and,
01:00:54and John makes a great point.
01:00:55Is that you,
01:00:56you know,
01:00:57you complain that these rules are being set down from on high and you have
01:01:00no input.
01:01:01And then you have input and you use the input and the changing of the
01:01:04rules to point to how it's a slip shot system.
01:01:08And they,
01:01:09there's,
01:01:10there's no direction whatsoever.
01:01:11That's,
01:01:12you know,
01:01:13that's one thing you cannot say is I think the people who,
01:01:15who are in charge of Heise have done a good job of listening and adapting
01:01:19because they know that this isn't,
01:01:21there's not necessarily going to be a quick one size fits all fix to all of
01:01:24these issues.
01:01:25And that's,
01:01:26it's just ridiculous that you've been heard.
01:01:29You've been heard multiple times.
01:01:31Maybe not.
01:01:32Everything is right.
01:01:33Just the way you want it to be,
01:01:34but you can't complain both ways that you're being dictated to.
01:01:38And then when you're listening to,
01:01:40well,
01:01:41they're changing the rules.
01:01:42They really had no idea what they were doing in the first place.
01:01:44Like,
01:01:45it's just,
01:01:46you just,
01:01:47you want it both ways and you don't want this thing.
01:01:48And you'll find any kind of justification to try to get away from it.
01:01:51That's just what it seems like.
01:01:52The TDN writer's room is brought to you by the Kentucky thoroughbred owners
01:01:55and breeders.
01:01:56Recent grade one winning Kentucky breads include Haskell winner,
01:01:59cyber knife,
01:02:00dominant CCA,
01:02:01Oaks,
01:02:02victorious nest,
01:02:03Alfred G Vanderbilt winner and champion Jackie's warrior.
01:02:05And Bing Crosby,
01:02:06Victor American theorem.
01:02:08You can look for your next Kentucky bread next week at the facing tip in
01:02:11Saratoga sale.
01:02:12And just around the corner is that Kentucky downs meet where there's going
01:02:15to be a ton of money up for grabs,
01:02:17but especially for Kentucky brands.
01:02:20This message from the KTOB.
01:02:23With some of the fullest fields in the country and quality racing year round,
01:02:28there's never been a better time to reap the rewards of breeding and racing in
01:02:32Kentucky purse money.
01:02:35Kentucky is at an all time high as his average purse per race outpacing
01:02:40California,
01:02:41Florida,
01:02:42and New York Kentucky breads,
01:02:45breathe them,
01:02:46raise them,
01:02:47race them.
01:02:49We all win.
01:03:15The TDN writers room is brought to you by XP TV.
01:03:18This week's XP TV workout of the week is charging worked for,
01:03:22for longs and 49.06 at Saratoga on Saturday,
01:03:26which you can see right now,
01:03:27if you're watching the video version of this podcast,
01:03:29the Todd Pletcher train set of tap.
01:03:31It was last seen,
01:03:32obviously winning by 23 lengths in the grade three Dwyer state,
01:03:36Kentucky.
01:03:37And we'll be right back.
01:03:38He's now preparing for a bit in the Travers.
01:03:40And I think those works are going to be especially important for him.
01:03:42If you're handicapping,
01:03:43because he isn't running between the Dwyer and the,
01:03:46and the Travers.
01:03:47So you kind of,
01:03:48you really need to get as much Intel as you can from those workouts,
01:03:51because he's not going to have that other race to see if he can back that
01:03:54up.
01:03:55Because that's the question.
01:03:56Cause if he runs back to that race and the Travers stretches out to a mile
01:03:59and a quarter and all that,
01:04:00he's going to win,
01:04:01you know,
01:04:02as much as we love that percentage,
01:04:03he's going to win.
01:04:05But there's a lot to be determined between now and then.
01:04:07And a lot of it is going to be based on those workouts to go to xbtv.com.
01:04:10You can check those out and check out all those two-year-old works as well.
01:04:13You can see those rising stars before they become rising stars and then yell
01:04:16at us when they don't become rising stars.
01:04:18All right.
01:04:19So here's this week's weekend preview.
01:04:21Got a lot going on.
01:04:22We've got a lot going on.
01:04:23We've got a lot going on.
01:04:24We've got a lot going on.
01:04:25We've got a lot going on.
01:04:26We've got a lot going on.
01:04:27We've got a lot going on.
01:04:28We've got a lot going on.
01:04:29We've got a lot going on.
01:04:30We've got a lot going on.
01:04:31We've got a lot going on.
01:04:32All right.
01:04:33So here's this week's weekend preview.
01:04:34Got a lot of good action, both at Del Mar and Saratoga.
01:04:36Even a little at West Virginia, which is now no longer under the purview of
01:04:40HISA.
01:04:41I'm sure there'll be a huge, huge difference in the racing and the
01:04:44jockeying this Saturday at West Virginia, at Mountaineer,
01:04:47when they have the West Virginia Derby and the great three West Virginia
01:04:50governor's stakes and a bunch of other stakes named after government
01:04:53officials for some reason in West Virginia.
01:04:56But the big race, the big race that we're all going to have our eyes on,
01:04:59and I'm going to do better things later today previewing it with our
01:05:02Breeders' Cup sponsorship, is the Whitney.
01:05:05The $1 million Whitney.
01:05:06It's a win and you're in for the Breeders' Cup Classic,
01:05:09and it's a race we always look forward to every year.
01:05:11To me, it's pretty clearly the second most important race of the meet at
01:05:15Saratoga, and I think arguably one of, if not the best,
01:05:20non-Breeders' Cup handicap division race every single year.
01:05:24I think it's probable that we're only going to get it five or six horses,
01:05:27but I think we're going to get a really star-studded field headed,
01:05:30of course, by Life is Good and Olympiad.
01:05:33We're waiting for these two to go at it.
01:05:35Life is Good, obviously, is one of the most brilliant horses we've seen,
01:05:39not just this year, but in several years.
01:05:41But Olympiad is more proven.
01:05:43Even though Life is Good had that race in the Pegasus,
01:05:46I do think that Olympiad is a better two-turn horse.
01:05:49I think he's going to get a real run for his money.
01:05:52Obviously, we don't have the PPEs yet,
01:05:54but a lot is going to be determined based on how loose Life is Good gets on
01:05:58the lead because I could easily see him pulling a Knicks go last year and
01:06:03just popping out to the front, coming a little bit wide off the turn
01:06:06and finishing off strong in the stretch.
01:06:08I do think it's a better field this year than last year in the Whitney.
01:06:11We might also have American Revolution,
01:06:13who's another nice Todd Pletcher horse who was second to Olympiad,
01:06:17and the Stephen Foster, as well as Hot Rod Charlie,
01:06:20who was upset last out at Monmouth,
01:06:22but is obviously still a very nice four-year-old.
01:06:25Happy Saver and Zoomer for Mark Cassie are the other ones that I'm seeing on
01:06:29the probables.
01:06:30A couple other races to talk about,
01:06:31but let's get some thoughts on the Whitney from Bill and John.
01:06:33Yeah.
01:06:34I mean,
01:06:35one of the themes of the Saratoga meet and Naira racing in general is these
01:06:38small fields and stakes races.
01:06:39But you know what?
01:06:40If you have a small field,
01:06:41it makes up a big difference and it makes things so much more palatable if you
01:06:48have all these big stars in these races.
01:06:51And that's what we're getting here.
01:06:52You know,
01:06:53Life is Good will be the favorite.
01:06:55Will you agree,
01:06:56Joe,
01:06:57Life is Good will be the favorite over Olympiad?
01:06:58Okay.
01:06:59Yeah.
01:07:00He'll be the favorite in there,
01:07:01but I'm more interested in what Olympiad does because he's the horse more so
01:07:07than anybody else in here where we're going to find out something about him.
01:07:10And as great as he has been,
01:07:12and he has been very good,
01:07:14he's never won a grade one race,
01:07:16and he's only run in one grade one his entire career,
01:07:19which is the Cigar Mile last year where he ran fourth.
01:07:22So,
01:07:23you know,
01:07:24Bill Mott's putting him in the spot where he belongs and he's going to get a
01:07:26test.
01:07:27And,
01:07:28you know,
01:07:29come late,
01:07:30late Saturday afternoon,
01:07:31early evening,
01:07:32you know,
01:07:33we're going to have a lot of questions answered about him.
01:07:34And,
01:07:35you know,
01:07:36maybe some questions answered as well about Life is Good because,
01:07:38you know,
01:07:39as good as he's been,
01:07:40this is the best field he's ever faced.
01:07:41You know,
01:07:42even though he beat Nick's go in the Pegasus,
01:07:44I think the overall depth of this field probably tops the Pegasus.
01:07:49So,
01:07:50it's going to be a really exciting race.
01:07:52Hunteron Charlie is interesting to me,
01:07:54too.
01:07:55I mean,
01:07:56this is a horse that's always kind of flown under the radar.
01:07:58And,
01:07:59you know,
01:08:00it's hard to get excited about a horse that got beat in the grade three
01:08:03Salvatore mile at Monmouth,
01:08:05but he's a better horse than that.
01:08:07I'm sure that Doug O'Neill didn't have them all cranked up for that,
01:08:10but yeah,
01:08:11it should be,
01:08:12you know,
01:08:13a really,
01:08:14really good race.
01:08:15And all along,
01:08:16I think we've been asking the question,
01:08:18how good is Olympiad?
01:08:19We're going to get an answer.
01:08:21Yeah.
01:08:22How good is this race?
01:08:23Potentially from a field standpoint that we're talking about Hot Rod
01:08:27Charlie,
01:08:28who all he did was he's made $5 million and basically has danced every
01:08:31dance.
01:08:32He's the fourth horse we're talking about in a six horse field,
01:08:34you know,
01:08:35projected six horse field.
01:08:36That's how good of a world group.
01:08:38This is all the current probables in the race.
01:08:42Their last race either finished first or second.
01:08:44So they're all coming in.
01:08:46Not only are the good horses,
01:08:47really good horses,
01:08:48but they're all coming in on an upswing where either they finished first or
01:08:51second in their respective previous race.
01:08:52That's why you have these races like this.
01:08:55This is a legitimate great one.
01:08:56This is a race that,
01:08:57you know,
01:08:58that we have on our calendar that every year,
01:08:59you know,
01:09:00people are pointing towards not only because of this,
01:09:02of the prestige and stature of the Whitney itself.
01:09:05And the fact that it's a great one at Saratoga,
01:09:07but it's a winning you're in.
01:09:08I mean,
01:09:09if you win this race,
01:09:10it doesn't matter what you do from now until November,
01:09:13you are automatically given a birth in the Breeders' Cup Classic and in the
01:09:16richest race here in the States.
01:09:18So to me,
01:09:19this is going to be a small field,
01:09:21but a very powerful field,
01:09:23top to bottom.
01:09:24And you could,
01:09:25it's going to be a great betting race,
01:09:26even though it's only six horses.
01:09:27And Joe,
01:09:28I know you're going to talk about this in your show.
01:09:29So we'll,
01:09:30we'll cross pollinate,
01:09:31you know,
01:09:32a little bit about that.
01:09:33But I'd be interested to see the show and,
01:09:35and listen to what you're going to say about Hot Rod,
01:09:38Charlie Olympiad.
01:09:39Life is good,
01:09:40American revolution.
01:09:41And then,
01:09:42oh,
01:09:43by the way,
01:09:44you know,
01:09:45Pletcher also has Happy Sabre who finished second in the Met Mile and,
01:09:46and Zoomer who,
01:09:47you know,
01:09:48is going to be the long shot in the race.
01:09:49But,
01:09:50you know,
01:09:51certainly is,
01:09:52you know,
01:09:53he's an interesting claim by,
01:09:54by Gary Barber and,
01:09:55and you're trained by Hall of Famer Mark Cassie.
01:09:56So it is top to bottom going to be a really interesting race to handicap
01:09:58and a really interesting race to watch.
01:10:00Well,
01:10:01unlike we were saying before,
01:10:02I think we're going to have more answers after this race about the horse
01:10:05of the year discussion.
01:10:06And I,
01:10:07you know,
01:10:08Olympiad is,
01:10:09he's been on the street,
01:10:10but he doesn't have that grade one win.
01:10:12He needs that grade one when I think to get onto the top,
01:10:15onto the podium for horse of the year,
01:10:17especially if he beats life is good.
01:10:19Who I think a lot of people consider,
01:10:20you know,
01:10:21maybe other than flight line pound for pound,
01:10:23the best horse in the country.
01:10:24And of course life is good.
01:10:25Does have the grade one win from the Pegasus,
01:10:27but then he disappointed a little bit in the Dubai world cup and then won
01:10:31a grade two last time out.
01:10:33So,
01:10:34so there's still work to be done for,
01:10:35for everybody in this race.
01:10:37You know,
01:10:38especially the top contenders to try to,
01:10:39you know,
01:10:40get into that discussion for the top older male or horse of the year,
01:10:43but that's not the only grade one race at Saratoga this week,
01:10:46this Saturday.
01:10:47We want to mention also the Saratoga Derby,
01:10:49which is a race that's near and near to John's heart with a thread of
01:10:52blue,
01:10:53having wanted a couple of years ago.
01:10:54So we got,
01:10:55it looks like we're going to have an eight or nine horse field in there.
01:10:57Annapolis for Todd Fletcher is really interesting.
01:11:00I think he might be the best three-year-old turf horse in the country.
01:11:03Classic causeway after his upset win in the Belmont Derby.
01:11:06He's going to run back in there.
01:11:07Emmanuel think theoretically is going to run this time.
01:11:11And then maybe be a fly in the ointment for classic causeway.
01:11:13Of course,
01:11:14my boy side dog for Graham motion is going to be in there too.
01:11:17We have the Saratoga Oaks on Sunday,
01:11:19but we also have the test stakes,
01:11:20the grade one long gene test this Saturday,
01:11:23which is obviously a pretty classic Philly three-year-old Philly sprint
01:11:27race that I,
01:11:28you know,
01:11:29it's to me,
01:11:30the test is one of those races that stamps who the best three-year-old
01:11:34Philly is in the country at a mile or shorter.
01:11:37And we're going to have a good field.
01:11:38We've got to Robbie who won an opening weekend for sure.
01:11:40Rita bow,
01:11:41a hot peppers.
01:11:42Who's become a nice source for Rudy Rodriguez,
01:11:44a private purchase.
01:11:45I believe Matt area,
01:11:46who I think is that horse right now was the standard bearer in that
01:11:50three-year-old Philly sprint division for Brad Cox,
01:11:52a couple of their nice horses in there as well.
01:11:54So,
01:11:55so we've got a lot to look forward to.
01:11:56Also the,
01:11:57the glens falls more like goddess who we,
01:11:59we all,
01:12:00you know,
01:12:01Excel last year is a really,
01:12:02really nice turf Philly marathon,
01:12:04or she's going to defend her title in the glens falls.
01:12:07We also have the,
01:12:08the Clement Hirsch,
01:12:09which is a great one.
01:12:10Also a breeder's cup when you're in on Saturday at a,
01:12:13at Delmar.
01:12:14And then,
01:12:15you know,
01:12:16Sunday,
01:12:17like I said,
01:12:18we got to,
01:12:19we got to the Saratoga Oaks.
01:12:20We also have the Adirondack stakes.
01:12:21We also have a little Hoya for three-year-old turf forces at Delmar.
01:12:24So,
01:12:25so a lot of good action this weekend,
01:12:26but I think we're all eyes are going to be on the Whitney.
01:12:29Yeah.
01:12:30It's going to be type of race.
01:12:31You set an alarm for,
01:12:32if you're out at the beach or something,
01:12:33I want to watch the Whitney live because there's going to be a lot of,
01:12:36a lot of fallout from that in terms of who we,
01:12:39who we analyze as the top of those handicapping and,
01:12:43and handicap and older male and horse of the year divisions for the rest
01:12:46of the year.
01:12:47Any,
01:12:48any other thoughts,
01:12:49guys,
01:12:50and any other races from this weekend?
01:12:51Yeah,
01:12:52I do just on,
01:12:53on one more race.
01:12:54And that's the great two hall of fame for the three-year-olds that are
01:12:56going to run a,
01:12:57you know,
01:12:58three-year turf course at Saratoga.
01:13:00In that race,
01:13:01you have wit who,
01:13:02you know,
01:13:03who I think is maybe avoiding Jack Christopher and Jackie's warrior a
01:13:07little bit in the sprints and,
01:13:09and trying not only the turf for the first time,
01:13:11but also going around two turns for the first time you have.
01:13:14Wow.
01:13:15What a summer who won the great two Penn mile at 80 to one a couple of
01:13:18races ago.
01:13:19And,
01:13:20and he's,
01:13:21he's in this race stolen base who won the American turf you know,
01:13:25great too.
01:13:26And then on the outside is the outside,
01:13:28not outside looking in,
01:13:30but the outside post position is tis the bomb who's returning to the turf
01:13:34after trying to,
01:13:36to make it in the derby campaign and run on the poly and run in the
01:13:40Kentucky derby.
01:13:41And Oh,
01:13:42by the way,
01:13:43all he's done is,
01:13:44you know,
01:13:45run the turf four times.
01:13:46He's got two wins in a second,
01:13:47including the great two bourbon.
01:13:48So,
01:13:49you know,
01:13:50to me that that's going to be an interesting betting race also,
01:13:52because you have,
01:13:53you know,
01:13:54nine entries,
01:13:55career starts between,
01:13:56you know,
01:13:57all nine entries.
01:13:58Um,
01:13:59but only one of them has ever set foot on the turf at Saratoga.
01:14:04So they're all trying something new,
01:14:06um,
01:14:07which is going to be really interesting to see just how this all plays
01:14:10out.
01:14:11Thanks to John for,
01:14:12for bringing that up because there are two really interesting races on
01:14:15Friday,
01:14:16two great races.
01:14:17The hall of fame,
01:14:18obviously the hall of fame induction ceremony is Friday morning.
01:14:20If you're there,
01:14:21you're in Saratoga,
01:14:22go check it out.
01:14:23Tom Durkin is going to be the MC that alone is worth the price of
01:14:26admission,
01:14:27which I believe is $0.
01:14:28So that,
01:14:29you know,
01:14:30that's,
01:14:31you can't,
01:14:32you can't beat that.
01:14:33Go,
01:14:34go to the hall of fame and the facing tip and sales pavilion for free
01:14:35and listen to Tom Durkin and ducks and people into the hall of fame.
01:14:38But also in the Troy stakes,
01:14:40the great three Troy is on Friday.
01:14:42We have the return of golden pal,
01:14:44who is obviously the best turf sprinter in America.
01:14:47You know,
01:14:48I,
01:14:49he was not good in the King stand obviously,
01:14:50but I think a lot of that was circumstantial.
01:14:52He broke slowly at a rush up on the pace and just,
01:14:54you know,
01:14:55for whatever reason,
01:14:56I,
01:14:57you know,
01:14:58I know he was second in the Norfolk as a two-year-old.
01:14:59It just,
01:15:00he just seems to like the American turf courses better than the,
01:15:03the European turf courses.
01:15:05Cause he wasn't very good in the Wooten Basset none Thorpe last year at
01:15:09York either,
01:15:10but in a state side,
01:15:11he is,
01:15:12he is six for seven.
01:15:13His only loss in America came in his debut when he was on the dirt.
01:15:16He's six for six in America on turf.
01:15:20Tough to be,
01:15:21tough to be better than that.
01:15:22And I think we're going to be looking for kind of a reprisal of his quick
01:15:25call when last year,
01:15:26which I,
01:15:27you know,
01:15:28that was his,
01:15:29his seasonal debut.
01:15:30This is his third start of the year,
01:15:31but he's coming back to America.
01:15:32So another chance for him to reestablish himself as what he is,
01:15:36which is the best turf sprinter we have on the,
01:15:38on this continent.
01:15:40So yeah,
01:15:41Friday,
01:15:42Hall of Fame,
01:15:43Troy,
01:15:44Saturday,
01:15:45Whitney day at Saratoga,
01:15:46and also the climate harsh.
01:15:47And then Sunday,
01:15:48big,
01:15:49nice three-day weekend of racing.
01:15:50We'll break it down next all next week,
01:15:52obviously here on the writer's room.
01:15:54The TDN writer's room is brought to you by West Point thoroughbreds.
01:15:57Joining a West Point thoroughbreds partnership can vault you into the world of
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01:16:05We're trying to do it on your own.
01:16:06You can learn more at westpointtb.com.
01:16:09West Point had two winners this week.
01:16:11First was B-Dawg,
01:16:12who I assume is named after the great Philadelphia Eagle safety,
01:16:15Brian Dawkins.
01:16:16B-Dawg got back to his winning ways in an allowance at Ellis park last Friday.
01:16:19If you remember,
01:16:20he had a big win at Keeneland earlier this year.
01:16:23And then on Tuesday,
01:16:24Colonial Downs County final,
01:16:25it was a purchase last year for West Point,
01:16:28got the win for trainer,
01:16:29Steve Asmussen.
01:16:30West Point kicks off their week of racing in Saratoga on Friday with Sequest.
01:16:33Dallas Stewart trained Philly,
01:16:35ran in last year's Breeders' Cup juvenile Phillies.
01:16:37Now takes on allowance company and race five on Friday.
01:16:40So best of luck to all the partners this weekend at West Point.
01:16:43We'll be right back with this message from West Point Thoroughbreds.
01:16:49All the thrills.
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01:17:17Being a small family business,
01:17:19I guess we're part of a dying breed.
01:17:21We're really grateful for the people that entrust us.
01:17:23We know it's a huge responsibility.
01:17:25We're always with your horse every step of the way.
01:17:29When it comes to being at the sales ground,
01:17:31showing your horses,
01:17:32we are with your horse.
01:17:33Just grabbing up down the road every day.
01:17:35There's not a time that I don't look out and feel a responsibility to the sport,
01:17:39the animal,
01:17:40the people that come to invest in the game.
01:17:42I want to see as many people enjoy this sport as they possibly can,
01:17:45because we do have the most beautiful sport in the world.
01:17:49The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Legacy Bloodstock.
01:17:52If you think that 50 years combined experience in the horse business
01:17:55could benefit your program,
01:17:56give Tommy or Wendy a call.
01:17:58They personally advise on each horse as if they were their own Legacy graduate,
01:18:02sharp as a tack.
01:18:03How about the start that sharp as tack is off to as a freshman sire.
01:18:07He just won his second juvenile start in the Tyro Stakes at Monmouth
01:18:10for Doug O'Neill.
01:18:11Really romped in there.
01:18:12He'll be pointing toward the $500,000 juvenile sprint at Kentucky Downs
01:18:16on September 8th,
01:18:17while his yearling half-sister prepares to sell with Legacy a keen on
01:18:20September.
01:18:21So obviously a big catalog update with sharp as a tack becoming a stakes
01:18:25winner in the Tyro and half-sister available with Tommy and Wendy.
01:18:30They're going to take care of you.
01:18:31Go see them.
01:18:32It's busy season for them,
01:18:33but they're a small outfit that gives everybody individual attention.
01:18:36And they do a great job, obviously,
01:18:38with all the money that their grads have earned.
01:18:40This week's Remy cartoon is kind of, you know,
01:18:43a little bit of a throwback to what we were talking about earlier about how
01:18:48we very,
01:18:49it's very hard for us to even agree on the basic things in racing.
01:18:52Sometimes we do have the Jackie club round table coming up.
01:18:55This is a racing round table conference in the cartoon where I think
01:18:59theoretically we all have an agreement on what a horse is,
01:19:03how to define a horse.
01:19:04We can just start there and then branch off from that.
01:19:06I think that's a good first step to getting some agreement and some
01:19:09cooperation in horse racing.
01:19:11Okay.
01:19:12So that's going to do it for this week's edition of the TDN writer's room
01:19:15presented by Keeneland.
01:19:16Don't forget this November.
01:19:17Keeneland is the place to be with the Breeders' Cup world championships
01:19:20followed directly for the Keeneland November sale.
01:19:22You can learn more at november.keeneland.com.
01:19:26It was good to be back with you guys.
01:19:27Bill and John missed you guys last week.
01:19:29I want to thank Bill Finley,
01:19:30John Green,
01:19:32our Green Group guest of the week, David O'Rourke, our producer,
01:19:35Patty Wolf, our associate producer, Katie Petruniak, and our editors,
01:19:38Anthony LaRocca, Aliyah LaRocca, and Nathan Wilkinson.
01:19:41Thank you so much for watching.