Our Stories: An Interview With Kim Dunn - Episode 170 Branham Research - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   John invites Kim Dunn to share her story of almost being abducted by the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). The discussion begins with Kim's background in a Pentecostal denomination, touching on the strict rules she grew up with, such as prohibitions on attending movies, dancing, and wearing makeup. Kim describes the challenges of adhering to these rules and the conversations she had with her father about them. The conversation shifts to the prophecies of William Branham, particularly the "egg-shaped cars" prophecy and how it connected with her father's beliefs. They discuss the inconsistencies and hypocrisies within the Pentecostal movement and the impact on individuals' faith journeys.  Kim further elaborates on her and her family's journey through various churches, including a Word of Faith church, and the eventual realization of the problematic teachings they were exposed to. The podcast explores the transition from being part of a strict religious environment to discovering the true gospel of Jesus Christ through resources like the American Gospel film. They discuss the manipulation and false teachings prevalent in certain charismatic movements, emphasizing the need to find a Bible-believing and expositing church. The episode concludes with advice for individuals trapped in similar situations, encouraging them to seek the true gospel and find spiritual freedom.  00:00 Introduction   01:06 Kim's Background and Early Religious Experiences   04:05 Conversation with Father about Shaving Legs   07:01 Prophecies of William Branham   09:00 Rules and Hypocrisy in Pentecostalism   15:06 Transition to Various Churches   17:13 Encounter with Word of Faith Movement   21:16 Realization of False Teachings   27:09 Importance of True Gospel and Biblical Teachings   30:07 Tithing and Church Finances   33:36 Discrimination and Rules in the Pentecostal Movement   37:04 Impact of Discovering True Gospel   40:00 Advice for Those in Charismatic Movements   45:00 Encouragement for Questioning and Seeking True Teachings   54:01 Closing Remarks and Additional Resources  ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00You

00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research

00:35podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham

00:40Historical Research at william-branham.org and with me I have my very

00:45special guest, Kim Dunn, almost abducted by the NAR. Kim, it's good to have you on

00:52here. We have exchanged a bit of communications via text and messenger and

00:58you were interested in telling your story and I know the world is

01:02interested to hear it, so maybe if you could tell everyone a little bit about

01:07yourself and how you were almost abducted by the NAR. Well, first off, John, I just

01:13want to say thank you for all of your work and research into William Branham

01:18and actually more than that probably the broader charismatic community and its

01:26roots. That has been really eye-opening for me. I was, I feel like we've caught,

01:33I've probably grown up on the fringe of like the William Branham cult. I didn't

01:39really know per se who he was or or anything about the message, but I grew up

01:44in a small Pentecostal denomination called the Pentecostal Church of God. My

01:51dad was a pastor, my husband's dad was a pastor there, and that's actually how we

01:59met. I would say theologically, probably pretty close in alignment with these

02:06assemblies of God always believed in the Trinity, so we weren't holiness, you know,

02:11oneness, but we always believed in the Trinity. But we had the Pentecostal

02:17Young People's Association, the PYPAs, and we had to sign this agreement that we

02:23wouldn't go to movies, we wouldn't dance, we couldn't go to pool halls, we couldn't

02:28go to bowling alleys. There was a whole list of things that we couldn't do. We

02:33couldn't wear pants, the girls couldn't wear pants, we couldn't get ears pierced, we

02:37could cut our hair, but we couldn't wear makeup, and so there was a whole litany

02:42of things that we could not do. And I remember having an interesting

02:48conversation with my dad one time when I was 12. We had had some cousins come and

02:54visit, and she had taught me how to shave my legs, and that upset my dad. And he

03:03said, I see you shaved your legs. And I said, yeah, Tanya taught me. And he's like,

03:09well, if God had wanted you to not have hair on your legs, it wouldn't be

03:15growing there. And I said, and I looked at him kind of like, seriously? Like, so why

03:22do you shave your face? I never could quite grasp the whole, all the thou

03:35shall nots, right? But I've always loved Jesus, right? I've always wanted to be

03:43pleasing to him, but I never understood all of these silly, silly rules. Like,

03:48show me in the Bible where it says I can't shave my legs. I want to see that. I

03:53want evidence of it. And I didn't like the hypocrisy, I guess, of saying

04:01rules for thee, but not for me. Like, that just really frustrated me. But I think as

04:11time went on, my dad kind of softened in his belief, because I do remember him

04:17telling me there were no apostles or prophets, and that he said there

04:22will never be more apostles and prophets. So I did walk away with that. But my

04:27connection, when you were doing one of your episodes on William Branham and his,

04:32the prophecies that he did, I think, in the 30s or whatever, that was kind of his

04:38bedrock or the 40s, whatever, that he said, God gave me certain prophecies, and

04:43you said something about egg-shaped cars. Yeah. I about hit the floor,

04:49because my dad told me when the Pacer came out, do you remember? Oh yeah. Have you ever seen it? Yeah.

04:55That was an egg-shaped car, and he says, well, there's one of those prophecies

04:59coming true. So, and I never knew where that source was. He never told me who

05:04said, well, William Branham said. So I about fell off my chair when you talked

05:10about that, because I thought, oh my goodness, because that put a lot of kind of pieces of

05:15the puzzle together, because I believe my family who were, my dad's family, who were

05:20kind of basically a bunch of, forgive me for this side of my family, were a bunch

05:26of horse thieves. Oh wow. They're a little wild bunch, but they got saved in a tent

05:34revival, and I don't know from where or by whom, but the timing seems right for

05:40it to have been maybe on one of those William Branham revivals in the 30s and

05:46all of that whole thing that they did, because they were always charismatic

05:51Pentecostal, right? Yeah. Right. There's a lot of crossover. I'm a car fanatic. I grew

05:58up, I restored Corvettes with my father growing up, and I'm an artist. I used to

06:04like to draw cars, so I would check out books from the library of old cars, and

06:09you know, every era, basically. And there was a, you know, the old, old cars were

06:15very blocky, but there was an era about 19, I want to say it was about 1930-ish,

06:22where they were starting to toy with the idea of aerodynamics, and they were

06:27making a lot of rounded corners. And so you find the old buses, the old, well even

06:33some of the old cargo trucks had that that egg shape, and they were toying with

06:38the egg shape. And at the time of the, I never really thought about it until

06:43years after I left, but at the time of the prophecy, it wasn't that he was, at

06:48the time that he was mentioning the prophecy, it wasn't that he had actually

06:53predicted it. He was saying, look what we have now, and remember how it used to be,

06:57there is no record of a 1933 prophecy. That's the real shocking thing.

07:04And even if there was, back in 1933, I found egg-shaped cars back, I think 1916

07:11was the earliest. But the Assemblies of God, it's really interesting because the

07:18Assemblies of God denounced latter rain, and a lot of the NAR researchers have

07:23connected William Branham to the latter rain, and so your mind automatically goes

07:28to, well the Assemblies of God must have denounced Branham. But Branham went where

07:33the money went, so when the Assemblies denounced them, he pretended like he

07:38denounced them, and in certain groups, and then he would flirt with them in

07:43other groups. You know, some of his strongest promoters were latter rain

07:47guys, and some of his other strongest promoters were against latter rain. But

07:52the Assemblies in Indiana became a rogue state, because they were supporting the

07:59Branham revivals. And so, especially concentrated in this area, you had a

08:03bunch of them, even after latter rain was denounced, that the Assemblies were

08:08flirting with Branhamism. And it kind of went on, so the rules kind of remained

08:13the same. And it's, you know, I grew up with, very similar to what you're

08:19describing, we had rules just for the sake of rules. It's interesting, because

08:24they would, you always knew what not to do, but they didn't really teach you, like,

08:29the things you really needed to know. Like, how to handle a boyfriend-girlfriend

08:35relationship, how nobody ever told me, you know, how far to go with kissing, how far,

08:42you know, nobody ever had those conversations with me. It was just, don't

08:46do that. And so, fortunately, I got married very young, but I didn't get into any

08:54trouble, but I think I probably could have, had I not met my husband and got

09:00married. But I just feel like they focused so much on things that didn't really

09:06matter, and never talked about the things that really mattered. And I could have

09:12very easily gotten myself into, walked away from the faith, you know, got into

09:18relationships and had children out of wedlock, and all sorts of stuff, because nobody ever

09:24talked to me about that stuff. So, it was just a, don't do this.

09:29I heard time and time again sermons about, if you have a question about it,

09:34don't do it. Well, if you're a child growing up, you're going to have a question about

09:38everything. So, you're looking for, they actually, what they've done is they've

09:44reversed how it should be. They have it such that if there's a question, don't do it.

09:50Otherwise, in their mind, it becomes sin, because you're sinning, you're going into

09:54the unknown. And what it does, it creates a group of people who live in such a way where

10:01they're looking for the rules to guide them as to how they should live. And like you said,

10:06with the boyfriend thing, you're always faced with that next question, so you look for a rule

10:12for the answer. What is the rule on boyfriends? What is the rule on kissing? When the Branham

10:18sect, you weren't allowed to kiss, so we actually cut that off at that rule.

10:23But where it ends up is instead of looking to Jesus or looking to your heart for,

10:30you know, what's right and your own personal walk with God, you're instead looking for a rule.

10:37And if there isn't one, what happens is the board of elders or whatever get together and

10:42they invent a new rule because there wasn't one. And so, you end up with rules on top of rules.

10:49Yes, that's true. You do. I think I just wish my parents would have been a little bit more

10:56open with me and having conversations with me about, you know, my own personal value and worth,

11:03right? And what's that saying? Why would a boy want, why does he want to buy the cow when he

11:12gets the milk for free kind of thing? You know, I wish that those conversations had been had with

11:18me rather than just tell me, you know, don't have sex, don't do this, don't do that, just

11:24but to be, you know, to really tell me why I shouldn't do those things and to rather than

11:30it's just a sin. Yeah, and that's the other problem with the rules-based religion, especially

11:36if you have an inquisitive mind like I do, you want to know why. Why is the rule? And the rule

11:42is simply because there's a rule. And a lot of times, many people, because the rules are mentioned

11:49in church, they assume that those same rules can be found in the Bible. Well, if you go back and

11:56look at the customs of the ancient world, and if we were to live by those customs, we'd be kicked

12:02out of the church in many cases, especially in the Pentecostal churches, the rule for the long

12:08hair. You mentioned don't shave your legs. Well, the ancient Jewish custom was that for in times

12:15of mourning, even the women shaved their heads. It was part of mourning. And, you know, when the

12:22Apostle Paul, I think it's Paul, whenever he's talking in Corinthians about the hair, you know,

12:27the hair is the women's glory, but he's talking about that specific custom. And at the very end

12:32of that passage, he says, but we have no such custom, neither does the churches of God.

12:38And so I think people read more into it just for the sake of having a rule. But the shaving of the

12:46legs thing, I came in contact with a Brannomite sect that there was a girl who came to one of

12:54the churches that we were attending. I think it was in Missouri. I can't remember exactly where.

13:00But I was, you know, I was a male and I was curious about women. And she walked up and I was

13:08very much interested to see was she taken or not until I saw the hair peeking through the pantyhose

13:13and the legs. And I was like, I don't know about this. There's something just not right here.

13:19I was wearing coffee colored pantyhose so that hopefully that would never be seen.

13:29But yeah, it was that was fortunately my dad, I think, realized the silliness of his comments

13:35and he never brought it up again. At least I think my dad had some common sense

13:43about him. And he was teachable, you know, because I do know he softened over

13:52as the years went on. He's since passed away, but he became a much softer version of himself

13:59as the years went on. He wasn't so hard-lined. But yeah. But after getting married, we continued to

14:10go to a small Pentecostal Church of God down here in the Bay Area. And then we just weren't getting

14:18the it was such a it was a very small congregation, like 20 people. And we were looking as a young

14:24married couple, we were looking for more relationship and kind of a different experience,

14:31to be honest with you in church. So we went to a big Assemblies of God here in our city,

14:37and we were there for about 10 years. And then we just kind of bounced. We were there for 10 years,

14:44and then we went to a church plant and that folded. And so then the church plant was

14:48placed into another assemblies of established Assemblies of God church. And then

14:56things started happening with my family and my parents were just starting to get ill,

15:00and we needed to travel more. And so it just ended up that we, we ended up at

15:07a local church over here is very word of faith, but I wouldn't have known that at the time,

15:12because I didn't have those labels. At the time, I was, I've read the Bible

15:19more than once. But you know, when you read it through a filter, a specific filter, you don't

15:27like, I always wanted to be like the apostles. And I felt like a failure because I wasn't.

15:34I felt like I was the apostles before the resurrection. And I was weak and afraid and

15:41fearful. And I wanted so much the Holy Spirit to come in and fill me with his power, so that I

15:48could be powerful, like the apostles were after Jesus's resurrection. And so I always have in the

15:54back of my mind, felt like a failure, that I wasn't doing everything that I should be doing for

16:00God. And so we went over to, I took our family to this new church. And it was a word of faith

16:09church. And it was okay for a while. And then they started, you know, really pushing probably

16:17that prosperity gospel. Again, I didn't know these terms. I've only learned these terms in

16:22the last five years. I didn't agree with it, but I didn't know why. And I thought, well,

16:31you know, it's okay. They're talking about Jesus. They're saying Jesus's name. And so

16:41I, it must be okay, right? Because they're opening up the Bible, they're reading scripture.

16:46I just didn't necessarily agree with everything they've said after they read the scripture.

16:51But I just, I didn't know why. I just thought, well, it's okay. I didn't know

16:57that we should say something or do something about it. Until a few years in 2018, I think

17:07the pastor who founded that church sold it to another pastor on the East Coast. And he came over

17:15and kind of brought his brand and he's more, he's definitely a word of faith, definitely

17:22prosperity gospel. And let's throw in some heresy while we're at it. So that was fun.

17:29Pete Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny. I've been

17:32mapping out all of the different connections from Branhamism to the charismatic movement,

17:38et cetera. Now I'm edging into the NAR and I'm trying to understand the NAR networks.

17:43And if you do a search for NAR apostles or prophets, you find the big names,

17:48which I'm not going to mention, but then trying to understand that they're networked with names

17:53that you wouldn't even consider to be part of the NAR because they're literally what birthed

17:59this whole thing. And it maps out to the very charismatic word of faith preachers,

18:05the prosperity gospel preachers. And the downside of it is what you, exactly what you mentioned.

18:12You'll never achieve that carrot on the stick that they give you. If you believe and if you

18:18bring yourself to the spiritual plane, you can do X, Y, and Z. Basically you can become a sorcerer,

18:24just like I claim that I am a sorcerer while I'm teaching you this false gospel.

18:29And I always find it funny because I didn't grow up in that world. I grew up in the world that

18:35literally birthed that. And so we didn't have a lot of the same rules that they did.

18:41Back to your talking about the rules. And I have family members that exercise and they do yoga,

18:48for example. And if you know what yoga is, it's just an exercise. I mean, you're literally

18:54stretching and bending. And I wish I could do it. I can't. But there are people who were influenced

19:02by those movements who say that the people that are doing it are actually worshiping a demon.

19:08Just because you're stretching your body and I'm like scratching my head,

19:12do you know what yoga is, man? I understand that there is, in the Indian world, I understand that

19:19there is ancient religions that also practice exercise. But the fact that those people exercise

19:27and I exercise doesn't mean I'm worshiping their God. And even more to the point, I find it really

19:35odd and ironic that the people who are raised in those movements will just condemn any child

19:42who likes Harry Potter because they're practicing their fantasy, Harry Potter and the witches or

19:51whatever. But yet they're literally trying to teach you sorcery in the churches. So they're

19:56doing the same exact thing as Harry Potter, right? And the first time I watched Harry Potter, I was

20:04like, you know, I've heard so many bad things about this, and this is actually a pretty good movie.

20:08Deirdre McCloskey

20:10Yeah, it's very well done. I've only seen the first one, but yeah, it was good.

20:16Yeah, you're right. They do, I have learned since exiting. We left that church in 2019

20:24because it became very clear that he was now teaching heresy in the sense of

20:32he made the comment that the Holy Spirit needs a body to accomplish anything on earth because

20:40God has given dominion of the earth to man. So God needs a man to accomplish anything on the earth.

20:49Totally twisting Colossians 3, 1 through 3. And it's like, that kind of was the final straw. It's

20:59like the Holy Spirit was waking us up and realizing, no, this is wrong. And we could no

21:04longer sit under that ministry. And we've found out recently now he considers the pastor there

21:11now considers himself to be an apostle. I'm not sure who appointed him or if he's self-appointed.

21:18But yeah, so one of the big things that helped us come out of this was I actually happened to

21:27just stumble upon the American Gospel film, the original one. And that really opened my eyes to a

21:35lot. And I feel like for the first time in my life, I truly heard the true gospel of Christ

21:43and salvation and everything. And it was such a heavy burden lifted off of me to realize I don't

21:55have to be the apostles. I don't have to be like the 12. That's not my job. I was so relieved to

22:06realize that I wasn't failing God. Like I said, you read those passages. I don't know how many

22:14times I prayed and declared, by your stripes we are healed. And how many times I decreed and

22:23declared over my kids and my husband and my home and my whatever, the past, the scriptures.

22:30And I know that my heart was sincere, but like I said, I was deceived into believing

22:40because I read the word through that particular lens, that filter, that all of those scriptures

22:46apply to me today, that we could do the same things that the apostles did. We could do them

22:54today. They're expected of us. Actually, I grew up in Reading where Bethel Church is. I was there

23:03when it wasn't Bethel. It was Bethel Assemblies of God. And it was actually a very nice little church

23:10until, yeah, until it wasn't. But this whole thing teaches such new age practices and how

23:19I've heard Benny Johnson say from the pulpit and also Bill Johnson say stuff like, those things

23:29that the devil uses for, like you were saying, sorcery and stuff and new age practices, we can

23:35reclaim them and use them for God and stuff when he tells us clearly in his word that we are not to

23:42touch those things, right? That I don't need to decree and declare. I don't have that power or

23:49that ability or that authority to decree and declare anything. That Romans, I've even forgotten

23:56it now, Romans 4, 17, the last bit of it says, declare those things that are not as if they were

24:06that. Boy, that was one of my go-to passages because it made sense in that filter, in that

24:13how I filtered things when I read the Bible. I said, I'm not, I wasn't illiterate in that sense.

24:19I knew what the Bible said, but I was reading it through the wrong filter. My filter was wrong.

24:25Pete Yeah.

24:26Deirdre And that, that's what God has changed

24:29since 2019.

24:30Pete You know, in the Harry Potter world,

24:32the bad guys have the same power as the good guys. So if you're reading that book, it might be okay,

24:38but they're claiming that they're teaching from another book. And it's not, if you actually read

24:44the Bible, it's not the way it works. It's not a Harry Potter type of religion, but they certainly

24:49want to promote it as that. And you mentioned your other church talking about the Holy Spirit must

24:56come down in a body. This is the basics of the Manifested Sons of God theology, which spread all

25:03through the latter reign. It was part of the Christian identity movement. And it's so, it too

25:10is a fantasy like, you know, the Harry Potter stuff. But what it does is it empowers a person

25:17to paint the picture of what this would look like should the Holy Spirit actually come down in a

25:22body, usually by men who describe themselves when they describe the body that it's coming down in.

25:29And so they become the apostle, and then they say, and the apostle of this day, and they will,

25:34you know, and they go off into their spiel. But the people who are so caught up in it,

25:39they're looking for, okay, who is this Holy Spirit guy that's coming? And so they start

25:45to envision by the things that he says about himself, they start to envision this guy.

25:49This is how a cult forms, a very destructive cult. So it is interesting. I've studied Bethel

25:56a little bit. It is interesting that they came out of the assemblies of God, but that just ties

26:02into how all of these networks came to be. You've got this whole network of mess that out of the

26:09mess births these big megachurch movements. And some of them are small churches that are just as

26:15destructive. It doesn't have to be a megachurch, but the bottom line is, like you said, the bottom

26:22line is the gospel is different. And I will never forget when I first heard the gospel in its

26:28simplicity for the first time, I was scratching my head thinking, you mean that's it? Jesus died

26:35for us and we can be saved? And I go back and I start reading the New Testament again and again

26:41to wash all of that mess out of my head. And it's as plain as day if you actually read the Bible.

26:48So how these men try to complicate it and confuse it, I'll never understand why they do it.

26:53So in my experience, it has been solely to line their pockets. It is for no benefit of my own

27:03other than for them to get rich off the flock. And that has been what I have seen,

27:15you know, the demand for tithing and you need to tithe, you need to give, you need to give,

27:21God's going to bless you if you give, if you don't give, you know, if you're not faithful.

27:26And here's the thing. There is some truth to that, right? God loves a cheerful giver.

27:34And I have seen and I have experienced God's blessing because of being a faithful giver.

27:42But they distort it and they ruin it because it becomes about them just getting rich and

27:54building their kingdom. And let me say that again. It's about them building their kingdom,

28:02not the kingdom of God. Darrell Bock

28:04Yeah. God likes a cheerful giver, but the pastor doesn't appear in some cases to be

28:11participating in the cheerful giving is the big problem. We started to understand the difference

28:18between, you know, first off we began to understand that there was an old covenant

28:23and the tithing system was part of that. And just studying the tithing system was eye-opening

28:29because it wasn't, it was really a banking system. It was kind of, it was more like an

28:35investment system because you gave your tithe, which also included animals. And so on the seventh

28:43day when everybody rested, you went to your reserves and everybody shared in the food and

28:48celebration. And there was drinking, there was wine, there was all kinds of things that the

28:53Pentecostal-ish churches don't allow. And then every seventh week there were all of these

28:59celebrations. So as you gave your stored up food and grain and all of your animals, et cetera,

29:07to the priest for him to manage, he also managed it in times of drought. So whenever the entire

29:13community might have otherwise suffered, they went to the banking system and now the priest

29:19has food that he can give you, et cetera. So it was more of a not, it was a religious ritual

29:27type thing, but it was more of a logistical thing to keep the people alive and moving, et cetera.

29:33But then as the priest got old and as he was passing the torch to the next guy,

29:39they would give a large percentage of what you had given back. And that's the part that no pastor

29:45in this tithing system will ever, ever, ever do, is give it back. Right, they got to keep all they got

29:54because they've got those big mortgages to pay on those fancy houses. Have you ever wondered

30:00how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned

30:06through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

30:12You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

30:17william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of

30:24John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,

30:30audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation

30:37on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause,

30:42you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,

30:48be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

30:53On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

30:58I think what was a real big, that was another big realization to me was that

31:05tithing really is not talked about in the New Testament. That doesn't mean that we're not to

31:13give to the church, we're not to support our local church, but and do so generously and joyfully,

31:21but that doesn't mean that we're under the thumb or that God's going to send us to hell.

31:29Or like I had a friend, I was having a conversation with her and she still goes to our former church

31:35and she was so stressed out because she had forgotten to send her tithe in that week.

31:42And I'm like, it's okay. You know, God understands. You're not going to be

31:49struck dead because catastrophe is not going to happen. It's okay. You're going to be okay

31:56because God knows your heart and you are a generous and joyful giver. And that was another

32:04big burden, right? That I felt was lifted off of me along with the fact that I didn't have to become,

32:10you know, a super apostle. And the fact that I could just be the best me in my environment,

32:21in my world, that I could be, be the best mom, be the best wife, be the best employee,

32:27and be the best friend. That's what God has called me to do and to be. And,

32:34you know, that's a big enough job to get up in the morning and walk every day in the goodness and

32:43the admonition of the Lord and to make sure that my life is a testimony of His goodness and grace

32:52to those around me. That's enough. I have to battle my flesh and my own selfish desires

33:01every single day. I don't need to worry about whether or not I'm a super apostle.

33:09And that was such a relief to me to no longer have to feel that weight and that burden

33:19of the stress. And I think I've been out of, especially the Pentecostal Church of God for

33:28many years now, that I feel like a lot of that stress and weight, and I've worked through a lot

33:34of this stuff of the lies that I grew up with. But in listening to you, that brought back a lot of

33:45the, oh yeah, I remember that. Just the bondage of that way of thinking and being under that

33:57bondage of lies and just the way he talked, when you talk about how William Branham talked about

34:04women and stuff. I don't know how to describe it because I don't have any specific memories,

34:13but I felt that in my core. Does that make sense?

34:16Pete Yeah, it does. You know, the real problem is

34:20a lot of these men learned by example, and they learned from a bad example. And then they teach

34:26churches by the bad example that they learned, back to the tithe and not to beat the dead horse

34:32on the tithe. But if the system were working like the New Testament describes, there are people who

34:40actually are in need. And if they go to the church and they need support,

34:45there should be people, if their hearts were genuine, who would just help out. But the problem

34:51is you have the complexities of people. So you trust a man who's going to govern this, and that

34:57being the pastor, it's not that you should be forced to do it, but your heart should be willing

35:02to see this poor person in the pew next to me, let's help him out. Well, it's better for somebody

35:09to be the central source of helping them out. And so if they were to supply the needs of the poor

35:14in the church from the money that's given for the community and the tithing system, all of this would

35:20actually work. And then people, by that example, they see the pastor giving this poor family food

35:26for their kids. Well, then they too want to help out and give food for the kids. And so it starts

35:32this thing that begins. But what we have instead is we want to be the next apostle or prophet or

35:38teacher or some spiritual Harry Potter. And so the people want to be that instead,

35:45because that's the example that they're given. And so the whole system becomes so

35:52bad. Then complicate that by the era from which all of this developed.

35:59It's not just that William Branham said these bad things. I've studied countless others who,

36:05in that era, they were very—it was the era of discrimination, not just women,

36:11but against people, black people, people from Asian nations, etc. There was a lot of

36:19discrimination going on. And you heard a lot of it from behind the pulpits. And if you look at my

36:25website, you can even see it in the titles of their sermons. It's discrimination.

36:30So all of these men learn to discriminate. And it's not that there are rules that you can go

36:35to and say, well, that is a discrimination rule, but it's a theme. And so these themes

36:40enter the churches, and that's probably what you were feeling.

36:43Debra I wish I could definitely put a finger on

36:46it, but it definitely brought up some old icky stuff from the past that I can't articulate it

36:57well. But it was definitely there. But I am very thankful that I stumbled across your YouTube

37:09videos and all of your research. And it's just interesting to me how the charismatic movement

37:18has put these people on such a pedestal, you know, William Branham. And of course,

37:25my brain is forgetting all the other names of the—

37:28Pete There's too many.

37:30Debra Of the other people, you know,

37:33Dowie was another one, Alexander Dowie and some of these other people who

37:40kind of brought the charismatic movement. And it's just, it's really scary to realize

37:47that that's the foundation of this broader movement. And it is tainted from the very beginning.

37:58Pete It is. And these weren't good guys,

38:00but many of them are labeled as, quote, God's generals. And I'll never forget when I started

38:08looking at Dowie, I could tell just simply based off of the same heresy that he was bringing.

38:14He was the prototype for what Branham taught as this divine healing movement. And if you carry

38:20it further, you can see traces of it going into the prosperity gospel, because it was the prosperity

38:27of good health was basically the gospel. And so I knew that was wrong, but I did not understand

38:33how much of a criminal this man was. You know, the fact that his entire ministry started because

38:39he stole the church was—it was just a little bit eye-opening. And then I started seeing a pattern

38:45emerging. And I'm one of these analytical thinkers. I want to know how something works.

38:50So my first thought when I see this guy that's—he's literally a Christian mobster,

38:57well, I began to explore the thought of, well, was there a Christian mob? I can see that there

39:03was a liquor mob. Was there also a Christian mob? And I started connecting people. And many of them

39:10are big names that are now, quote, unquote, God's generals, but they're operating and behaving in

39:15the same way. And they share all of—if you look at the attributes and characteristics of the mafia

39:23and you examine what these men were doing, it is the same exact thing. And the people

39:28who are at the bottom all suffer in both cases, mafia and Christian mafia. So that's really what

39:35led me to explore all the paths of how did this network emerge? What caused this network to form?

39:43And I'm convinced that, like you said, it was money, but it wasn't just that. It was the power.

39:50These men liked people to view them as though they, even if they weren't powerful, they wanted

39:55to be the Harry Potter. And you look at the modern apostles today, the word apostle simply means one

40:03who goes out and spreads the message of the gospel. Well, which of these men are doing this?

40:10You can say that you have a YouTube ministry or you have a televised ministry, but yeah,

40:16everybody does. These days, anybody can have a YouTube. So what are they doing that earns

40:21them this title? And if you look at how they proclaim their title, it is that they have power.

40:27Yeah, they have a number, a large following, and they all just kind of appointed themselves,

40:33right? They anoint themselves as apostles and prophets, and they don't pass any spiritual

40:40litmus tests for anything. They just have a large following or they have a lot of money

40:47or whatever, and it's, yeah. And they're not preaching the gospel.

40:54They're not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. They're preaching a false gospel,

40:59and they're leading many people astray, and they're teaching a gospel that is of easy

41:05believism. We would sit in church and he would talk about, well, you want the blessings of God

41:15to flow into your life. You need to start giving to God, and you need to start doing all of these

41:21things, and you'll begin to see God prosper you. You'll get the job you've been praying for. You'll

41:28get that house that you've been praying for, and all of these things will start happening for you,

41:32but you've got to get right with God first if you want this stuff to happen. And I'm sorry,

41:38but that's not the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's not the same Jesus at all. And so,

41:45you have so many false converts, I believe, in this movement going to church,

41:52worshiping a false Christ and a false Jesus. Actually, a lot of these people are worshiping

41:59the pastors or the apostle, because that's who they put their faith in, and they're in

42:08love with the pastor. They're in love with the man who's in front of them,

42:14and they are following him, and they worship him, and they worship him by giving him their money,

42:23their time, and their adoration. And all I can say is, thank you, Lord. I pray for those people,

42:32because I don't want to see anybody lost. I would love it if a lot of these big,

42:40mega churches would empty out, if people's eyes would be open to the truth of the real gospel

42:48and the real Jesus, and they would realize that they've been duped, and that it's a farce,

42:53and that they're being fed a gospel that's filtered through a faulty lens. And if they

43:01would come to know the real Jesus and wake up, and then these people would lose their flocks,

43:08but that the people in the church would come to know Jesus. That is my prayer, because I

43:16know God is faithful. I mean, like I said, I've always loved Jesus. I've always wanted to know

43:22the truth, and God has been faithful to me, and he's led me and my family out of that movement.

43:29Even though we were on the fringes, we started to get sucked in, but God rescued us, and

43:37we now know who we serve. We serve the God of the Bible and Jesus that was revealed to us in

43:48Scripture, and we are attending Bible-believing, Bible-expositing churches. I am so thankful for

43:58that, that we're no longer under that false system, and that we don't worship the apostle,

44:07we don't listen to the prophet. There was this couple that used to do email prophecies,

44:17and I would just be so anxious to hear what their next thing—because it was almost like reading my

44:25horoscope. When I look back, I wouldn't read horoscope. That was wrong, but I would look for

44:33their daily prophetic message to see if it could some way apply to me and encourage me.

44:41That's really sad, because that's not any different than looking for a daily horoscope

44:49to see what's in it for me today. I'm thankful that Jesus rescued us and that He has

45:00set our path straight, feet on the right path.

45:04Darrell Bock Yeah, horoscope, prophetic ministry,

45:08apostle, Harry Potter. Again, I find it so ironic that they condemn all these people for watching,

45:15and it's a great movie. If you've not seen it, it's a great movie. I've often thought about what

45:21would happen in these megachurches if they were to just actually start preaching the gospel.

45:27The problem is that it's like the newspapers. Good news doesn't sell. You've got to have the

45:33big story. There was a James Bond movie. I don't know if you remember it, but the villain basically

45:39created the news, and he created his own disasters, because that's what sold, right?

45:43Well, a lot of these ministers are exactly like that James Bond villain, because they create their

45:48own fantasy of these spiritual demonic forces so that they can be the apostle to go with their

45:54flaming sword and go attack them, because it is a gospel of itching ears that they're attracting

46:00people to. The problem is the same, and I'm not saying anything negative about the people that

46:06are sucked in, but there are a people who get sucked in because they do have itching ears,

46:12because it's human to have this interest. When you hear the Harry Potter religion, you want to

46:17go see who Harry Potter is, right? So these people get sucked in, and it's so problematic, but once

46:25the actual gospel is preached, it isn't a gospel for itching ears, and so those people who came

46:32just to see the signs, miracles, wonders, prophetic ministry, etc., well, all of that dissipates,

46:39and how could the church even still stand? So I'm a little bit different, because I see all

46:48people as people, even the big names in these big mega churches. They have a history that led them

46:55down that path, and I feel sorry for them that they're in that path, but I also feel sorry for

47:00them because how do you get out of that? They've built this empire that if they were to actually

47:05start preaching the gospel, their whole empire crumbles, and what do you do with that? I've

47:10actually worked with ministers who were in the Branham cults who decided to preach the gospel,

47:18and their church is emptied, and some of them struggle because their church is emptied, and

47:24that has been their livelihood for some of them 50 years, right? So I feel sorry for the ministers

47:30that are in that position, but I feel sorry for everyone, the people as well. If you could give

47:36some sort of encouragement to the people that are sucked into this thing, what would you say to them?

47:42There are so many resources available on YouTube and so many great podcasts. I would say, one,

47:51keep reading your Bible. If you haven't read it, read it. Two, find somebody who isn't connected

48:02to your strain, your church strain. Find somebody outside of that. Find a, what do they call them,

48:13a dead church? Isn't that what a lot of these charismatic—find somebody in a dead church.

48:19Petey

48:21They use the word dead. They use the word apostate. It's all kinds of names. And again,

48:27it's not just a gospel of rules. It is a gospel of insults as well.

48:31Deb Yes, yes. But find somebody in a dead church

48:34that, listen to somebody who actually teaches the scripture line by line and who teaches the

48:43history of the scripture, who exposits the scripture, who doesn't take 37 verses and push

48:51them all together to make it say what he wants it to say. Get out of that echo chamber and find

48:58somebody who really begins to teach you the word of God and realize that what you're hearing is

49:06filtered through one particular filter. I just want to say, when you went back to,

49:15when you said, what do these people do? What does that guy do if he stops preaching? He's

49:20going to lose everything. But that's what Christ calls us to do, right? If we're going to really

49:26surrender our lives to Christ, we have to be willing to lay it all down. And the fact that

49:30these ministers who make millions and millions of dollars off of their supporters, off of their

49:37congregants, they aren't willing to lay it down. They don't want to lose it because that is their

49:43God. They don't worship the God of the Bible. And so I would just encourage, and I do feel bad,

49:50like you mentioned, for the small pastors who begin to preach and that's all they've known,

49:54and they begin to preach the gospel and they lose their congregants. But I just want to

49:59encourage them, keep preaching the word of God. And if you're in one of those churches that don't

50:05preach the gospel, get out, run, because you're being taught by a wolf and they will devour you.

50:14But go run and find a Bible preaching, Bible expositing church that will teach you the

50:21actual word of God instead of all of this other nonsense. If you're sitting under a prophet and

50:27you can't wait to hear his next message, if you're sitting under an apostle, run, get out,

50:34you are being deceived. Because there are no prophets and there are no apostles for today,

50:40but get out, go find a church that actually preaches the word of God.

50:43Darrell Bock I think that is good advice. People need to

50:47get out and just experience other churches is what I usually recommend. Because the other problem that

50:54people have when they're trapped in this thing and they've been in a gospel of insults against

51:00other Christians, they are sometimes afraid when they enter a new church that they're entering the

51:06quote-unquote apostate church. There's so many different insulting names. But then because

51:14they've been trained under that skepticism, they engage hyper-drive, a hyper-critical thought

51:22against the new church where they had completely shut off their critical thought in the first

51:28church, which is ironic if you really think about it. And so they'll try to experience a new church

51:33and say, yeah, I went, I didn't like it. It wasn't like my old church that I left because it was

51:38heretical. And so there's this vicious cycle that never ends, right? I've talked about this with

51:46Chino Ross, but the other thing is the urgency. They embed this sense of urgency like you don't

51:52have time to experience a new church. And it's a false sense of urgency, you know, to get rid of

51:58that, be patient, learn, grow. So if you could go back and you could say something to encourage

52:05your former self while you're trapped into this and give you hope that the gospel that you have

52:12now could be found, what would you say to yourself? To continue to just seek after Christ, to

52:19not, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't get so frustrated with men's rules that you

52:27throw out God with them. And don't, don't give up on God. Man-made rules and regulations can be

52:41frustrating and overwhelming and feel like a prison, but Jesus offers us freedom and true

52:52freedom and that he sets us free. The truth sets us free. And so I would just, I would encourage

53:01myself to start looking sooner, to get out, to really understand and not, and I think what I did

53:12instead of when I heard something I didn't like, I just kind of, because being a preacher's kid,

53:19I was kind of taught, don't say anything bad against the preacher. No, don't have the preacher

53:25for lunch. And so I would say actually have the preacher for lunch, question him, chew over what

53:31he said and really question what you were just told and then research it. Is that true? Is that

53:40accurate? Is that what Christianity for the last 1900 years prior to charismatics say? Is that what

53:52they were actually teaching? And actually find out for yourself and do some research. In the age

53:58of the internet nowadays, there's absolutely no reason, no excuse to be able to do that research

54:04and find out. But I would say that's the encouragement I would give myself, is I would say

54:11question harder, more often and do your research so that you don't get deeper in

54:20and get swallowed by it. That's very good advice. Thank you so much for doing this with us.

54:27I'm certain everybody who is listening is going to be encouraged by what you had to say and

54:31thank you so much. Thank you. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information,

54:36you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For an overview of

54:42the historical research of William Branham and the healing revivals, read Preacher Behind the

54:46White Hoods, a critical examination of William Branham and his message. Available on Amazon,

54:53Kindle, and Audible.

55:16So

55:46you

Our Stories: An Interview With Kim Dunn - Episode 170 Branham Research

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