Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Cynthia delve into the complexities of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements as it relates to context of Scripture.They discuss key figures such as Chuck Smith, Paul Cain, and William Branham. They analyze how the Latter Rain and Charismatic Revivals shaped modern evangelicalism, with a particular focus on the problematic elements of teaching out of context, the misuse of prophecy, and the mingling of politics with religion. Through personal anecdotes and historical context, the speakers emphasize the importance of returning to a more authentic and biblical understanding of Christianity.
The conversation also touches on the dangers of modern charismatic movements, critiquing practices like speaking in tongues and the manipulative nature of prophetic fortune-telling within these groups. The dialogue presents a clear juxtaposition between the original covenantal theology and the modern interpretations that have drifted from biblical teachings. It concludes with a reflection on the consequences of false teachings and the role of believers in discerning truth from manipulation.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 The Influence of Chuck Smith and the Latter Rain Movement
05:06 Personal Encounters at Calvary Chapel and Speaking in Tongues
10:03 The Charismatic Landscape of Southern California
14:02 Reflections on Chuck Smith’s Leadership and Legacy
18:31 Understanding the Architecture of Latter Rain Theology
22:27 Biblical Misinterpretations and Their Consequences
28:05 The Danger of Out-of-Context Scripture in Modern Evangelicalism
32:43 Prophecy in Scripture vs. Modern Movements
39:05 The Rise of Christian Nationalism
45:03 Historical Lessons from the Old Testament and Modern Applications
50:04 The Dangers of Combining Government and Religion
54:02 Personal Reflections on Leaving the Latter Rain Movement
58:02 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Cynthia delve into the complexities of the Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements as it relates to context of Scripture.They discuss key figures such as Chuck Smith, Paul Cain, and William Branham. They analyze how the Latter Rain and Charismatic Revivals shaped modern evangelicalism, with a particular focus on the problematic elements of teaching out of context, the misuse of prophecy, and the mingling of politics with religion. Through personal anecdotes and historical context, the speakers emphasize the importance of returning to a more authentic and biblical understanding of Christianity.
The conversation also touches on the dangers of modern charismatic movements, critiquing practices like speaking in tongues and the manipulative nature of prophetic fortune-telling within these groups. The dialogue presents a clear juxtaposition between the original covenantal theology and the modern interpretations that have drifted from biblical teachings. It concludes with a reflection on the consequences of false teachings and the role of believers in discerning truth from manipulation.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 The Influence of Chuck Smith and the Latter Rain Movement
05:06 Personal Encounters at Calvary Chapel and Speaking in Tongues
10:03 The Charismatic Landscape of Southern California
14:02 Reflections on Chuck Smith’s Leadership and Legacy
18:31 Understanding the Architecture of Latter Rain Theology
22:27 Biblical Misinterpretations and Their Consequences
28:05 The Danger of Out-of-Context Scripture in Modern Evangelicalism
32:43 Prophecy in Scripture vs. Modern Movements
39:05 The Rise of Christian Nationalism
45:03 Historical Lessons from the Old Testament and Modern Applications
50:04 The Dangers of Combining Government and Religion
54:02 Personal Reflections on Leaving the Latter Rain Movement
58:02 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00You
00:00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Cynthia Artish,
00:00:47and together we're discussing Charismania, the history and the impact of the Pentecostal
00:00:52and Charismatic movements on Christianity.
00:00:56Cynthia, it's good to be back.
00:00:58We had so many compliments off of the first one that we did together.
00:01:02I don't know if you got a chance to look through the comment feeds, but people were begging us for more,
00:01:07and I'm glad we're connecting to do this, and I have had my homework to dig into Chuck Smith,
00:01:14and lo and behold, he's tied into everything that I've been researching.
00:01:19Surprise, surprise, you mentioned that he was with the Angelus Temple, which I did know that,
00:01:23but I did not realize how deeply it ran into latter rain until I found a clip of Paul Cain
00:01:31talking about his days with Chuck Smith, and he dated it back into the days that Chuck Smith was at Huntington Beach,
00:01:41and he even named the revival that Chuck Smith became his campaign manager for.
00:01:48So I was able to go back into the newspapers.
00:01:50I was able to dig that up.
00:01:51You can go to my website, type in Chuck Smith, and you can find this, but this was back in the 50s,
00:01:57so we have Chuck Smith as a latter rain guy.
00:02:00He's from the Angelus Temple in the years in which they were Christian identity,
00:02:06so everything that I've been researching basically flows through Chuck Smith,
00:02:10and from there, as you know, it goes from Chuck Smith to various other figures,
00:02:15which we'll be examining in the future.
00:02:19Well, it's great to be here again, John, and that's something I just learned from you.
00:02:25Now, I have to say this.
00:02:27I grew up in Huntington Beach, and I was born in the mid-50s, so I was too young to know a lot of stuff.
00:02:36By the time I was a teenager, though, I don't know if you know we're called Surf City in all the nation.
00:02:42We're, you know, famous for that, I guess.
00:02:45Wow.
00:02:46Back in those days, we were a bit rural and very, very hippie surfer kind of town.
00:02:51I lived about a couple miles from the beach, and I used to go fishing on the pier with my dad,
00:02:57and we had a little fishing boat, so I miss those times.
00:03:00But it does explain a lot because I wasn't converted or I didn't become a Christian at Chuck's tent.
00:03:11I actually, I think the Lord saved me earlier than that, and I won't get into that story.
00:03:16It was a very different kind of thing.
00:03:19But when I was in my early 20s, the musical group I was playing with, you know,
00:03:27I was a musician and we were all trying to make it in the music business,
00:03:31they all wanted to go to this place, Calvary Chapel.
00:03:34The big news was Calvary Chapel, and it was just out of the tent and into the building in Costa Mesa,
00:03:40which is pretty much up the street from Huntington Beach.
00:03:43And so, I tagged along with my friends and was very open-minded.
00:03:48I mean, I didn't have any goals of getting close to the Spirit.
00:03:53I didn't even think I knew what that was.
00:03:56I was just reading my Bible and kind of feeling things out.
00:04:00But I do remember my early days at Calvary.
00:04:04There was a class that Chuck Smith gave on teaching us the gift of tongues.
00:04:10It was a class.
00:04:12And I distinctly remember him being, he was a very friendly guy, and he was dressed in gray sweats.
00:04:19This was on a weekend.
00:04:21I felt like he was some sort of P.E. teacher.
00:04:24You know, Chuck had this history teacher, P.E. teacher vibe going on with his personality.
00:04:29It was very friendly and comfortable.
00:04:33And in this class, I'll never forget this because I had been studying the scriptures on my own,
00:04:40and he got up in the class and he said, okay, we're going to learn about the gifts today.
00:04:46And he talked a bit about them and he said, so we're going to teach you how to speak in tongues.
00:04:51And you know, it was like a cooking class, only we're learning how to speak in tongues.
00:04:57And I kind of got weird feelings from that in a casual way.
00:05:02I thought, wait a minute, if it's a gift, why is somebody teaching how we use tongues?
00:05:09I mean, it was my take, you know, and I was a very new Christian.
00:05:13So, I didn't, I wasn't really perturbed, but I just remember distinctly him leading the class with the gibberish.
00:05:22I don't know how that sounds, but I felt really awkward with that
00:05:26because I, because that never entered into my head to talk like that.
00:05:30You know, gobbity gobbity, I forget what it was.
00:05:33It was some syllabic pattern, right?
00:05:37As a musician, you know, we think of syllables like rhythmic patterns, right?
00:05:42And I remember sitting there thinking how odd this is.
00:05:45If God is going to give us these gifts, wouldn't we just have them?
00:05:50Wouldn't we just receive them?
00:05:52And so, that was kind of my first, oh, I don't know, maybe a positive encounter with Pentecostalism
00:05:59because it was so friendly and calm.
00:06:01It was not erratic or hyper-emotional.
00:06:06Darrell Bock I have a couple funny stories about the speaking in tongues.
00:06:10I have a lot of friends who believe that it is the next thing to God
00:06:14and whenever they enter into this thing like you, to me it sounds like gibberish.
00:06:20I'm not going to lie.
00:06:22But we've been, Charles and I, as we've been examining the Branham history,
00:06:27one of the churches that we examined, and I'm not going to mention the name,
00:06:31but in these churches that are very cultish and destructive,
00:06:36they will often have quote unquote messages from God
00:06:39that are intended to chastise people for questioning.
00:06:43And one time the pastor had an entire sermon
00:06:47that was dedicated to the chastisement of an individual, well, their family,
00:06:53because they didn't adhere to the cult rules.
00:06:56And lo and behold, somebody who, it might have been the pastor's wife,
00:07:00somebody who was of rank in the church quote unquote spoke in tongues and prophesied.
00:07:05And the prophecy was this narcissistic God saying things
00:07:11that a God would never say against a person.
00:07:14I'll just say it like that.
00:07:15And you have to question it.
00:07:17But the funniest story, I had this guy who escaped,
00:07:21and he claimed to have had the gift of interpretation.
00:07:26And he said people would, in his church, people would start speaking in tongues,
00:07:31and suddenly the interpretation would fall upon him, and he would stand up,
00:07:34and he was the interpreter for the church, which I didn't question it.
00:07:38That's what he said.
00:07:39That's his story, and he's sticking to it.
00:07:42But he said whenever he suddenly came in contact with all of the critical information
00:07:49of these movements that I had been publishing,
00:07:53he was in the church thinking about something that the pastor had said
00:07:57that was just completely false.
00:07:58It did not match the Bible.
00:08:00It did not match Christianity.
00:08:02And his mind went there, and somebody started speaking in tongues
00:08:05while he's thinking critically.
00:08:07And he said suddenly he was thinking of that,
00:08:10and he wasn't listening to the speaking in tongues.
00:08:13And so after it finished, everybody's quiet.
00:08:16They're all looking at him because he's the interpreter.
00:08:18And he sat there forever because he didn't hear what the woman said
00:08:23whenever she was speaking in tongues.
00:08:24And suddenly he had to stand up and say, I'm sorry, y'all.
00:08:27I know she said something that might have been important,
00:08:30but I just wasn't paying attention.
00:08:35Well, I'm sure out there there have been a lot of experiences like that
00:08:41because that's just real life, you know.
00:08:45But I do know when it comes to, like, Chuck, I really enjoyed him as a person.
00:08:52I thought he was a very friendly, just a likable fellow.
00:08:56I mean, young people notice that.
00:08:59That was a big deal because in Huntington Beach we had all these,
00:09:03we had a lot of hippies.
00:09:04You know, back in the day, the, well, you know,
00:09:08I don't know if people nowadays know what hippies are,
00:09:11but basically as a cultural description,
00:09:15they're these free-thinking people who are really rebelling
00:09:18against the establishment in their own personal way.
00:09:21And, you know, we had the Vietnam War going on back in the day,
00:09:24and there was a lot of scary stuff with that.
00:09:29I remember having some friends, you know,
00:09:32some guys who I worked in the band with who were worried about getting drafted,
00:09:36and I wasn't really paying attention to too much of the politics
00:09:40more than there was a lot of fear in the young people community
00:09:45because of the guys, you know, some of them went to Canada to avoid the draft.
00:09:50And so there was a lot of upheaval culturally
00:09:57in Southern California.
00:09:59And now with hindsight, some of my theology teachers,
00:10:03we look back on that and they think it was,
00:10:08the Southland was like the burned-over district in New York,
00:10:11if you know what the burned-over district is in church history,
00:10:14where you had all of these religious movements,
00:10:21very, very emotional, claiming supernatural events.
00:10:27And there was so much of this emotionalism
00:10:31that it just simply burned everybody out.
00:10:33You know, it would de-church people.
00:10:35They didn't want to go to church.
00:10:36It was so extreme.
00:10:38And we tend, I think I agree with the idea that Orange County,
00:10:43mostly Orange County in the Southland area is a burned-over district
00:10:48because we had the Calvary Chapel movement,
00:10:51we had the Vineyard movement,
00:10:53we had a very, very large charismatic population with all the,
00:10:58like Church of the Nazarene and other groups,
00:11:03definitely Jehovah Witnesses, definitely Mormons,
00:11:07you know, everything was going on here.
00:11:09And Rick Warren, you know, rose to power here in Mission Viejo.
00:11:14And now where are all these people?
00:11:17Well, Shuler, I don't know if you remember Robert Shuler
00:11:21with his Hour of Power.
00:11:23And basically that word power is like what John Wimber used,
00:11:27you know, power religion,
00:11:29which was this indication where we have these extraordinary occurrences,
00:11:34these miracles, right?
00:11:36And I never saw a miracle.
00:11:38I mean, I was here.
00:11:40I saw a lot of strange stuff.
00:11:43Now I would say it probably was Satanic activity.
00:11:47I mean, I saw a few things that were scary.
00:11:50I also played in a musical group that worked with Lonnie Frisbee,
00:11:55who at the time was Chuck Smith's house guest.
00:12:00And I know now with hindsight, Lonnie Frisbee was an occultist.
00:12:05He wasn't just a misguided Christian.
00:12:08He was doing divination and all kinds of occultic pursuits
00:12:14at the same time with the Calvary thing.
00:12:16And that's aside from smoking marijuana and whatever,
00:12:19you know, what the kids did back then.
00:12:21I'm not even counting that as a thing because there was so much of it.
00:12:26So, what I mean, occultic practices,
00:12:29I mean calling upon spiritual entities and then claiming it's God.
00:12:35And that was scary, you know, weird stuff going on there.
00:12:40So, we now live in an area where Robert Shuler's big church is now Roman Catholic.
00:12:51Calvary Chapel is fragmented.
00:12:54In fact, today is the anniversary of Chuck Smith passing away.
00:12:59He died on October 3rd.
00:13:01I think it was 2011.
00:13:03I'd have to look at, you know, the date.
00:13:06But his, Chuck Smith built a kingdom, you might say, to his name.
00:13:13His, what he thought, what he believed in, it was all about his domain.
00:13:18And I said before, we used to joke, seriously, not funny but funny,
00:13:23calling him Pope Chuck because his Moses model of church governance
00:13:31made him the sole authority over what Calvary Chapels would do.
00:13:37And if you had a franchise at Calvary Chapel, like the other pastors,
00:13:42they are the sole authority.
00:13:44It's a business model.
00:13:45They own everything.
00:13:48They pay a licensing fee to the Calvary Chapel dove and the trademark and the name and all that.
00:13:54And when Chuck died, there was a big fight over his multimillion dollar estate.
00:14:00And the Word for Today, which began, I think it was the first small recording company
00:14:07that did sermons on tape back in the day when we had cassettes.
00:14:12I'm really old.
00:14:13I remember cassettes.
00:14:15And it turned into a mega business.
00:14:19Like Greg Laurie has, I think Greg Laurie gets the prize for having the biggest business,
00:14:26Calvary Chapel sort of business that he calls Harvest.
00:14:30And he does these crusades.
00:14:31And it's all about building his brand, and he is the CEO of it.
00:14:36So, he even sounds and looks like Chuck Smith.
00:14:38I have to say that.
00:14:40I don't know if he does that on purpose.
00:14:42Could be.
00:14:43But, yeah.
00:14:45And so, it's sad in a way.
00:14:48I think Chuck meant well.
00:14:51I don't know about the latter rain portion, but it explains a lot
00:14:54because his productions at the tent and then at the building were very well planned,
00:15:01very well orchestrated, and slick, you know, in their own way.
00:15:08Yeah.
00:15:09I've had to, in my roles with my IT business, I've had to play many different roles.
00:15:14But one of the roles that I play is architect because, number one, I have to,
00:15:20but number two, it fascinates me to understand how things work.
00:15:23I was one of these kids that whenever I would get a radio for Christmas,
00:15:26first thing I did was get a screwdriver and take it apart and see what's in it
00:15:30so I could understand what it was.
00:15:32But I want to know what makes things tick.
00:15:35And that's part of what drives me to look into all of this
00:15:40because once you understand the architecture of latter rain,
00:15:45I call it the framework, and that word probably falls on deaf ears in the religious circles,
00:15:50but if you understand the architecture of it,
00:15:53latter rain had this focus on exactly what you're calling power, power evangelism,
00:15:59power signs and wonders, miracles, all of this stuff.
00:16:02But it also had a heavy focus on the demonic.
00:16:06And when I say that, I mean not just from the deliverance side of things
00:16:11where they're claiming they can cast out evil spirits, et cetera,
00:16:14but they did demonic things.
00:16:17There was speaking to the dead, and openly they were praising God
00:16:21for speaking communication with the dead, which is highly abomination.
00:16:26They were doing many, many occultist things that if you go study Satanism,
00:16:32which I have just to understand what it was,
00:16:34many of the practices that you find in Satanic worship,
00:16:38they were doing in latter rain.
00:16:40And Branham spearheading it was teaching by example,
00:16:44and he would say things like, I don't know the book real well, but I know the author,
00:16:48but here, let me teach you the book.
00:16:51So he would bring his own flavor of teaching into it,
00:16:54and that flavor included things like communicating with the dead
00:16:57and reaching out to the souls on the other side,
00:17:02many different things that you would find if you go to a seance.
00:17:06I mean, it's really that weird.
00:17:08But more than that, the latter rain focused heavily on the fear.
00:17:14It did have the excitement, like you're talking about in our last episode,
00:17:18the excitement with the power evangelism.
00:17:21It had that, but it capitalized on the fear,
00:17:24because that's what contained the people of that era.
00:17:27They were afraid of the next coming world war.
00:17:30They were afraid of the Cold War, et cetera.
00:17:32So they capitalized on that fear.
00:17:34Well, after all of that fear subsided, and especially during the hippie movements,
00:17:39it was love, peace, happiness, excitement, power, this kind of thing.
00:17:43And if you understand the architecture of what was built with latter rain,
00:17:48you begin to understand that you cannot have this excitement without the other side of it.
00:17:56So the power evangelism exists because of the powers and the signs, wonders, miracles
00:18:00that latter rain advertised, which the way in which they represented it
00:18:07was that it was this demonic thing that they were overcomers of,
00:18:11the same thing latter rain did.
00:18:13But they created this fictional world far above and beyond
00:18:16what the Bible teaches of angels and demons,
00:18:19so that they entered the casual average person into a daily battle with demons,
00:18:24but focused on the excitement of it.
00:18:26It's exciting to fight these demons, et cetera.
00:18:29So I understand how the architecture works, and that's really what drives me.
00:18:33What Chuck Smith brought into this movement,
00:18:37and he was learning from people like Paul Cain, who was Branham's protege.
00:18:42Chuck Smith, according to Cain, Chuck Smith was his campaign manager in the 50s.
00:18:47So he's learning how to build this architecture,
00:18:51but he, instead of focusing on the fear, he focused on the summer of love,
00:18:55the hippie movement, get everybody,
00:18:58rebrand this thing into a new marketing strategy for this new rising group of people.
00:19:04And to be fair, you know, speaking of the occult and Calvary
00:19:09and touching on Lonnie Frisbee just a little bit,
00:19:13one thing that Chuck really was at the beginning,
00:19:17he really was a compassionate person, just very compassionate.
00:19:22And when he invited Lonnie Frisbee and his wife into his home,
00:19:26into Chuck and Kay's own home,
00:19:29you know, Lonnie Frisbee was, he was like a street person.
00:19:34He was dirty, literally, you know, he walked barefoot.
00:19:37He was kind of a, you know, an unkempt hippie kind of person, right?
00:19:41And some of Chuck's church employees or leaders
00:19:48didn't like the fact that these people were coming to Calvary Chapel's building
00:19:53because they didn't want to get the carpeting dirty, you know, on the ground.
00:19:56And I love this story because it's true.
00:19:58Chuck said, no, we're going to let anyone come in the door.
00:20:02And it didn't matter how clean they were, you know,
00:20:05it could be a homeless person, it could be, you know, somebody on the street, whatever.
00:20:09And so he let, he had a very big heart
00:20:13and he let Lonnie Frisbee into his life, personal life, living in his home.
00:20:19Now, what I think is interesting, very quickly,
00:20:22it was in a few years because he gave Lonnie things to do at the church,
00:20:26Chuck backtracked, and I guess it was Lonnie's lifestyle.
00:20:31You know, I didn't know back then, but now I know.
00:20:34And so the occult practices that creep in always,
00:20:39you know, we're warned in scripture.
00:20:41I mean, I always tell people, look, I don't know why anybody is wondering
00:20:45about the validity of these signs and wonders groups.
00:20:48We're warned, you know, Jesus said, an evil generation seeks for a sign.
00:20:53Right?
00:20:54So there's a lot of very good, clear directions in the New Testament.
00:20:59One thing that Chuck did that I hear today that I think is a problem
00:21:06is he did a good thing, he thought, by teaching the word of God verse by verse.
00:21:12And he would simply go through the Bible,
00:21:14I think it took two years to go from Genesis to Revelation,
00:21:17and then he would start over again.
00:21:19And that was the big sell back in the day.
00:21:21We all love that.
00:21:22I mean, I remember being excited going to a church
00:21:25where I would get taught the whole Bible, you know, in a couple of years.
00:21:30Right?
00:21:32But now we know that's a very unreliable way to study the Bible
00:21:38because the Bible is a, it's not a verse by verse book.
00:21:42In the original writing of the Bible, we don't have verse divisions or chapter divisions.
00:21:47None of that.
00:21:49It's basically written like a novel.
00:21:51And so, one of the Bibles I have doesn't have chapter and verse divisions.
00:21:56It forces me to read, read it like a regular book.
00:22:01And even with all the cultural differences that I may not know about,
00:22:06if I'm reading in context, it forces me to put a pin in it and find out later
00:22:13what is that reference to, you know, propitiation?
00:22:16What is that?
00:22:17What does that word mean?
00:22:19And how is it being used in the context of the whole chapter and Jesus using it?
00:22:26And that's why I think today we have a really risky system in churches
00:22:34because everyone I've met, you know, brags about reading the scriptures verse by verse.
00:22:41And I would say, don't do that.
00:22:43You want to read large chunks from beginning to end without stopping.
00:22:48Whole books, whole letters.
00:22:50You know, do that.
00:22:53Because you get a totally different take, spin on what the scripture is saying.
00:22:59And to really understand what the scriptures mean,
00:23:02you have to understand what they're saying and how they're saying it.
00:23:05And that's how I believe now.
00:23:09That's actually the reformed, a reformed approach.
00:23:12And all that means is getting back to the original intention of the writers.
00:23:18That's what I mean by reformed.
00:23:20I'm not talking about any group.
00:23:22I'm talking about understanding the scriptures for what they say.
00:23:27Absolutely.
00:23:28I knew what you meant.
00:23:29And last time we spoke, I did notice people were pointing that out in the comment feeds.
00:23:34But you and I had had so many conversations before,
00:23:36I couldn't remember what we talked about before the podcast or during the podcast,
00:23:40but I knew what you meant by the phrase reformed.
00:23:44What's funny for me is, like I said, I study the architecture.
00:23:48I want to know how it works.
00:23:49I want to know what makes it tick.
00:23:50And I began to understand exactly what you're saying.
00:23:54The original scrolls had no numbers.
00:23:58Some guy sat down, and he wrote a scroll.
00:24:00And then the scroll was rolled up, and they would carry the scrolls with them.
00:24:04The scribes would carry them.
00:24:05So the prophets would prophesy, the scribes would write it down,
00:24:09and then they would have it in a scroll with no chapters or anything.
00:24:14Well, I have to say this.
00:24:16Let me add this.
00:24:17The Aramaic scrolls you read from right to left, not left to right.
00:24:24Isn't that amazing?
00:24:26It's like, that's really different.
00:24:28Yep.
00:24:29Go ahead.
00:24:30But there were so many things that I came to understand was taught upside down,
00:24:36or, like you said, left to right.
00:24:39But it matches the architecture.
00:24:41So what Chuck Smith was doing, he was actually teaching what Latter Rain had taught him to do.
00:24:47William Branham would come out, and Branham was the leader of the Latter Rain revivals.
00:24:52So everybody was trying to mimic what he was doing.
00:24:55He was mentored by F.F. Bosworth, who was in Dowie's cult, John Alexander Dowie's cult.
00:25:01And they all did this kind of thing, and they cross-pollinated in doing it.
00:25:06But Branham would get out in front of an audience, and he would say,
00:25:09okay, let me read this verse as my context.
00:25:12Which actually meant he was building a context out of context,
00:25:17if you understand what he just said when he said it.
00:25:20And I began to understand this when I first saw a photograph of what a scroll would have looked like.
00:25:27And I suddenly realized, wait a minute, this can't be.
00:25:30In the Latter Rain movement, and this came from Christian identity, this predated Branham,
00:25:35but Christian identity taught Pentecostalism that the last chapter of Malachi
00:25:42was to be applied to the British Isles and the United States and Canada
00:25:49under the British Israel framework.
00:25:51And so when you read Malachi 4, behold, I'll send you Elijah the prophet,
00:25:55this was supposed to be coming to the United States and Great Britain, according to that theology.
00:26:01And I began to realize, well, wait a minute, chapter 3 and chapter 4, there were no chapters.
00:26:06This is a scroll.
00:26:07The very title line of that scroll of Malachi says, written to Israel, not written to the Gentiles.
00:26:13And I took it a step further.
00:26:16Like exactly like you just said, like your Bible, I really like this idea.
00:26:21I started reading it, when I would sit to read a book in the Bible, I read a book in the Bible.
00:26:29I didn't even think about the numbers that are associated with it.
00:26:33And I started picking up on things that the movement had taught incorrectly.
00:26:38Another thing that was taught is that God only sends one prophet per age, one major prophet per age.
00:26:45That was something that was taught in Latter Rain.
00:26:48As I'm reading it as a book instead of a verse, I'm starting to notice this prophet's talking about King Darius,
00:26:55and this other one's talking about King Darius, and this third's talking about –
00:26:58and you start to get a picture of the cultures surrounding all of the books and the prophets.
00:27:06And you start to understand that the whole framework that was established by Latter Rain cannot exist.
00:27:12But the critical flaw that I see in all of this charismania, when Chuck Smith started doing this,
00:27:19all of the errors that were in Latter Rain can now come forward into the charismatic movement
00:27:25because of out-of-context reading of the Bible.
00:27:28Deirdre McCloskey
00:27:30Now, you're giving me – you're taking me down memory lane.
00:27:34And I remember distinctly one of the most beautiful things at Calvary Chapel,
00:27:41the building in Costa Mesa back in the day, was the bookstore, was the Calvary Chapel bookstore.
00:27:49And I remember, you know, because a lot of young people started reading the Bible.
00:27:54And if anything Chuck did that was good, he really got people to think about reading the Bible themselves.
00:28:02Like many young people, I got a King James Bible for my 16th birthday that I never read,
00:28:10you know, it was one of those gift Bibles with the pretty cover, beautiful artwork.
00:28:17And I started reading, you know, I opened it and read a bit of it and I thought,
00:28:22oh my gosh, I can't understand this, you know, the language in it was, you know, King Arthur.
00:28:26I couldn't get there.
00:28:28So, but what I think is so wonderful is Chuck brought, you might say, a public square kind of store.
00:28:40There was no Christian bookstores back in those days.
00:28:43Okay, Calvary might have been the first one, I don't know, but it was a giant place
00:28:47and it had everything from trinkets to jewelry to books.
00:28:51And I don't remember any theology books, but what I have here, and this is what I learned later,
00:28:58this is a wonderful book on how to read the Bible.
00:29:05Because as I agonized over me reading the Bible myself,
00:29:12I think what I brought to the table was just a basic concept because I'm a musician,
00:29:17a reading musician, and I thought, you know, you read the Bible like you read music, right?
00:29:23You start at the beginning and you don't stop until the end.
00:29:26And I think that was my individual gift.
00:29:31That saved me from a lot of heartache where my friends, a lot of them did the taking the verses out,
00:29:38you know, cherry picking the verses, right?
00:29:41And I always had an aversion to that because I thought, well, yeah, as an improvising musician,
00:29:45I can pick out those riffs, but you're not going to get the whole understanding with a piece of music
00:29:51unless you go from the beginning to the middle to the end, right?
00:29:55And you play it through.
00:29:57And that's hard work.
00:29:59But hey, I was a symphony musician back then and you just turn pages and keep reading.
00:30:05So I did notice some differences, especially the end times scare things.
00:30:11I mean, I don't know if you remember, Chuck Smith wrote a book about the end of the world.
00:30:16I think it was the Day of the Lord was going to be sometimes in 1988 or something.
00:30:22It came and went and we were all really scared about it because with dispensational,
00:30:28he had a dispensational view.
00:30:30So you had to be ready.
00:30:32There was this, you had to be ready because if you weren't ready, you were going to get left behind.
00:30:38And so that was the new fear.
00:30:40I remember having some mild concern, but I had some friends who had gone to, you know, summer camp,
00:30:48Christian summer camp where they showed the scary movie Left Behind.
00:30:52And I laugh about it now, but back in those days, if you talked to any of those guys,
00:30:57they would say, we were terrified.
00:31:00We were terrified about that, being left behind as Christians.
00:31:04And because I kept reading the scripture, I thought, well, wait a minute.
00:31:08I don't read that we get left behind.
00:31:10I believe in Maranatha.
00:31:13You know, the tagline of Calvary Chapel was Maranatha.
00:31:17And I was all Maranatha.
00:31:19Come Lord, let's do it.
00:31:21I never thought about being good enough to be ready, you know.
00:31:27So it just shows you how you can have in one church a group that misreads the scriptures.
00:31:35Based on the leader, I can't remember what Chuck did after the date came and went.
00:31:42I think he wrote another book, and I wondered about that.
00:31:46I thought, how can you do, you know, how can you do that?
00:31:50Darrell Bock Yeah, and even that matches the architecture.
00:31:53In Latter Rain, we have not published it yet, but Charles is going through, and Charles
00:31:57has compiled a list of all of the hundreds, not tens, but hundreds of times that these
00:32:03guys said, in the next five years, we're going to see the end, folks.
00:32:07It's going to be the end, next five years.
00:32:10And sometimes it would be this year.
00:32:11They would say, end of this year marks the, whatever is the sign that they had picked
00:32:16from some little verse that was out of context.
00:32:19And that's really the problem.
00:32:21The other problem I see, which you beat me to it, but whenever you have a church of people,
00:32:27and you have a minister who is preaching a single verse, and that is his context, ripped
00:32:32out of context, it becomes like a magic potion.
00:32:37The Bible itself turns into an idol when you do this, because now that verse has power,
00:32:42and because it's ripped out of context and has no context, this person over here is going
00:32:48to hear one thing, and they're going to apply it to whatever is their current problem of
00:32:53the time.
00:32:54The other person is going to apply it a different way, and they both hear two different things.
00:32:58And so they both think that this book says two different things.
00:33:02I remember that hit me like a brick wall.
00:33:05I was sitting there, and I was trying to figure out, whenever I began reading in context,
00:33:11the very first chapter that I had read when I left the Branham Movement, the day that
00:33:18I read it in context, it said something entirely different than the day before.
00:33:23And my mind was blown.
00:33:24I was like, this just cannot be.
00:33:26I've read this book in the Bible probably 100 times.
00:33:29So I went back, and I probably read it 10 more times, just that one particular book.
00:33:34So that I could wash all of this nonsense out.
00:33:37And then I did the same thing with the whole Bible.
00:33:39I read it cover to cover.
00:33:41I did not read specific verses.
00:33:43And I lost count, but I think it was between 10 and 15 times I did that right after leaving the cult.
00:33:50Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal Movement started, or how the progression of
00:33:55modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, Charismatic and other fringe
00:34:01movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
00:34:04You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
00:34:08william-branham.org.
00:34:11On the Books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
00:34:16Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
00:34:22audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:34:25You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:34:31If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
00:34:36Contribute button at the top.
00:34:38And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
00:34:43listening to or watching.
00:34:44On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:34:49It's so good that you came to that place.
00:34:53One thing I was really grateful to discover, and it was much later when I started studying
00:34:57church history and all of that theology, is what is a prophet in the Bible?
00:35:02Who are these individuals called prophets?
00:35:04What does that mean, right?
00:35:06And in 20th century America and 21st century America, especially now with the NAR silliness,
00:35:13we have the total wrong idea of what the biblical prophets are.
00:35:18You know, in the Bible, in the scripture, God's prophet is a prosecuting attorney,
00:35:24is basically, that's who that individual is.
00:35:28God sends his prophet to indict Israel when they're breaking the law.
00:35:35And God's judgment is gonna come, and that's why the prophets weren't popular.
00:35:43Because they were the only ones telling the truth to national Israel.
00:35:48You're idolaters, you're whoring around with other religions.
00:35:52You know, all of that was not good news, right?
00:35:55And that's what a prophet is.
00:36:00A prophet is not a fortune teller who tells the future.
00:36:07Yes, some of these things happen in the future, but that's not what they are.
00:36:12You know, their office, and that's why a proper reading of the scripture, the whole scripture
00:36:18from Revelation, from Genesis to Revelation, Jesus is our, he has the trifold office of
00:36:25prophet, priest, and king.
00:36:27Out of all the prophets that came before, he is the final prophet, period.
00:36:33Okay?
00:36:34Out of all the priests that came before in the Old Testament, Jesus is the final priest
00:36:42under the Old Testament system, okay?
00:36:47And then Jesus is the king of the kingdom.
00:36:51So he's everything.
00:36:52That's why, you know, he's everything, right?
00:36:56And recognizing that threefold office is so important to Christian maturity.
00:37:03And I love the fact that, you know, when I learned prophets were like prosecuting attorneys,
00:37:09it gave me a renewed interest in reading all the places where the prophets were delivering
00:37:13their messages to rebellious Israel.
00:37:17And it's always the same situation.
00:37:19You know, Israel has, you know, I love Israel, it's kind of funny.
00:37:22They say, you know, they get the Ten Commandments and the first thing the people say is, we
00:37:27will do everything the Lord says.
00:37:29Yeah, how long did that last?
00:37:31Right?
00:37:33So, they keep, so it's funny, not funny, they keep failing and they keep apostatizing
00:37:43again and again and again.
00:37:45And the prophets keep coming until, I love the Ezekiel prophecy where, you know, it says
00:37:52that the Lord is going to raise up not only the dead bones in the valley, but they are
00:37:59scattered.
00:38:00The bones are dry and scattered, right?
00:38:02And Ezekiel sees this vision and he has the correct response.
00:38:06He goes, how are you going to do that, Lord?
00:38:09You know, it's not like there's a dead body laying there.
00:38:12It's the bones are dry and scattered.
00:38:15And he had a very practical question.
00:38:19How is this going to work, right?
00:38:21And by the preaching of God's word, of God's holy gospel, the word of Christ, the bones
00:38:27will come together, which is spiritual for the Lord, the spirit of the Lord living in
00:38:34the hearts of his people.
00:38:36And so, the kingdom is with us.
00:38:37The king lives in our hearts as Christians.
00:38:42It's not, you know, the only other kingdom that's sort of out there is the age to come
00:38:46when the Lord consummates all of his work through the second advent.
00:38:52Pete Yeah.
00:38:53And then, thank you, it's done, you know.
00:38:57But it's so sad that everyone's chasing these false prophets, but if you read the scriptures,
00:39:03we have warnings about that.
00:39:06I just think people don't want to know.
00:39:08They don't want to hear God's word.
00:39:10Pete Yeah.
00:39:11You're beating me to all of my main points.
00:39:17One of the other big things that hit me like a brick wall is, so, in the latter rain movement
00:39:22and not just latter rain, but everything that predated it that created latter rain
00:39:28and everything that post dated it that emerged from latter rain, they taught a very different
00:39:34model of what a prophet meant.
00:39:37And it took me a while to grasp that thought because we were taught, exactly like you said,
00:39:43we were taught that a prophet is a fortune teller.
00:39:46They actually, in the latter rain movement, they had these sessions where after the revivals
00:39:51you could go meet with a prophet and go into a little room and you could ask him, basically
00:39:56you're asking what is your fortune, but you'd come with whatever is your heart's desire
00:40:00to learn about in your future, what choice should you make left or right.
00:40:05You'd ask the prophet and he would give you his secret words of knowledge, which is fortune
00:40:10telling.
00:40:11It is the absolute definition of fortune telling.
00:40:13Debra And John, just a minute, the proper word is
00:40:16seer?
00:40:17John Yes.
00:40:18Debra Is seer.
00:40:19John Yes.
00:40:20Debra That's an occultic.
00:40:21John Exactly.
00:40:22Exactly.
00:40:23Debra That is demonic.
00:40:24John Yeah.
00:40:25And they even call themselves, I was talking with another gentleman who knew Paul Cain
00:40:29and Paul Cain and the others, they even called themselves that word.
00:40:33They would say we're seers.
00:40:34You guys call us a prophet, but we call ourselves seers.
00:40:38Well when you read it in context, when you read the Bible in context, you get exactly
00:40:43what you said.
00:40:44Here's the law, here are the, I can't remember the numbers, like 300 blessings if you obey
00:40:49the law, like 300 curses if you fail it.
00:40:53What happened is exactly what you said.
00:40:54You read the book of Kings, they rise up into power, then fall into sin, and then here come
00:41:01the prophets.
00:41:02But even deeper than that, to get the full context, you have to understand the culture.
00:41:08So I began studying the ancient world, the ancient cultures.
00:41:11In today's world, we have a separation of church and state, and so it's very much different
00:41:16than in the ancient world, your culture, your state, your religion, it was all one
00:41:23and the same.
00:41:24They were all bound together.
00:41:26Dianne Rehm So hold on a second, I want to catch something.
00:41:29So it's even more organized than that, and here's the thing to catch.
00:41:33Okay, in the Old Testament from Genesis on, you see a pattern.
00:41:39God's presence with his people is covenantal, even with Adam and Eve.
00:41:46And this is something that blew me away.
00:41:50The covenant is not a contract like the baseball contract, where two mutual sides are going,
00:41:55well, I'll do this if you do that.
00:41:57No.
00:41:58You have the great creator king, the suzerain, in ancient Near Eastern language.
00:42:04The suzerain was the most powerful king that could kill you.
00:42:09He had the biggest army, right?
00:42:11So when he conquered you, he would say to the tribe or the village, I'm the big great
00:42:19king and I can wipe you out, I have all the power.
00:42:22So here's what I'm going to do for you if you want to survive.
00:42:27I will provide protection and my greatness will watch over you and all of that.
00:42:33And so the village or the smaller people group that got conquered by the king, they had no
00:42:37power.
00:42:40They were told what the covenant treaty was, okay?
00:42:44And we have archaeological evidence of these ancient treaties, right?
00:42:49So the entire Old Testament is basically the same design as an ancient Near Eastern treaty.
00:42:57And so the children of Israel who were called out from paganism by Yahweh, right, and the
00:43:04Ten Commandments as part of the covenant, and it's a very clear relationship where the
00:43:12great creator king, who has the power of life and death, says if you obey me and keep my
00:43:18decrees, I will bless you.
00:43:21If you don't, if you break the covenant, there are sanctions.
00:43:25And that is today, that's same to the today because the Old Testament is a covenant.
00:43:29The New Testament is the new covenant.
00:43:32So the Old Testament covenant is not gone, it just has been fulfilled by the new.
00:43:39And so they are connected, but the new covenant that Christ's blood on the cross and the Lord's
00:43:46Supper and the Day of Pentecost inaugurated the new covenant and that's why Jesus is the
00:43:59final prophet.
00:44:00Pete Right.
00:44:01End of story.
00:44:02And you know, I get a little animated because I just, I see these people and it's scary
00:44:08because I think, you know, have you ever read the curses in the Holy Scripture where if
00:44:14somebody speaks for God when he has not spoken, have you ever read the consequences?
00:44:19Wow.
00:44:20It's scary.
00:44:21Yeah.
00:44:22Pete It's like you and I, we didn't compare notes
00:44:25before this, but you're like heading everywhere my head was heading.
00:44:31One of the verses that hit me really hard after leaving this mess that I was in was
00:44:36Luke 16, 16, the law and the prophets are until John, since then the good news of the
00:44:41kingdom, which means the gospel, since then the gospel is preached, we're in a new covenant.
00:44:47And like I was heading towards, I studied the ancient cultures and in the ancient cultures
00:44:53it wasn't just Israel that had prophets because it was church and state was all one and the
00:44:59same like the prophets of Delphi.
00:45:01You had these other prophets.
00:45:03The prophets of Baal are mentioned everywhere in the Old Testament.
00:45:07But that was the Old Testament structure where it was all one entity with the civilization,
00:45:14the culture.
00:45:15Well, when the new covenant came and the Bible says the law and the prophets were proclaimed
00:45:21until John, well, that model where the old covenant prophets would rise up and say, no,
00:45:26you broke this, now you get these curses.
00:45:29That model no longer applied, and so we get into a new model where everything that they
00:45:35tried to bring back by taking specific verses, especially from the Old Testament, and trying
00:45:41to point that to today's world, it doesn't even match the Bible.
00:45:45I mean, it does not match the Bible, but it also does not match just the structure and
00:45:50architecture of what was a prophet of the Old Testament.
00:45:54Yeah, it's, we are now seeing what theologians are calling, let me see if I can say this
00:46:02simply, Christendom, that word Christendom actually is different than Christianity.
00:46:10Christendom is man's expression of Christianity.
00:46:14So we have American evangelicalism or stuff like that, which is different than scriptural
00:46:21Christianity.
00:46:22We are now seeing the abolishment of Christendom, which we saw in the 60s where we had the sexual
00:46:29revolution and we had all of the fundamentalist blue laws, what we call blue laws.
00:46:36Christians have the Ten Commandments, we don't have 11, right?
00:46:39We don't have 11 commandments where my skirt length has to be so many inches from my knee
00:46:45or I'm in trouble with the church.
00:46:47Or if I cuss or if I drink whiskey or an adult beverage, you know, during the prohibition,
00:46:55there was these moralistic movements that were hyper-focused on pietism, which is you
00:47:02can't smoke, you can't drink, you know?
00:47:06And so, all of that's been obliterated right now in the culture we're in right now, okay?
00:47:12And in the ancient world, as you noticed, there was no separation of religion and government.
00:47:17In fact, the government was religious, right?
00:47:20Pete Yes.
00:47:21Mary Beth Yeah.
00:47:22I mean, look at Daniel, Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego under Nebuchadnezzar.
00:47:28And I just love that story because, you know, you see the virtue of Daniel and his friends.
00:47:36But then you see Nebuchadnezzar larger than life.
00:47:39Very good example of your typical suzerain, you know, earthly suzerain, right?
00:47:45And Nebuchadnezzar comes into personal contact with the suzerain above all other suzerains,
00:47:52the true and living God, Yahweh, right?
00:47:55So it's interesting the time we're living in now, which kind of, I guess we're all wringing
00:48:01our hands over folks that think it's a good thing to be a Christian and run the government,
00:48:10run the American government.
00:48:12I always like to say, no, no, I'm an American.
00:48:15I'm an American.
00:48:16I believe in the equal opportunity of all people, even if I disagree with them.
00:48:23Because I know, I know the endgame here.
00:48:26It never turns out well when you mix government and religion.
00:48:29Pete Never.
00:48:30And I want the freedom to worship the true and living God in my country.
00:48:37I do not want to do a Nebuchadnezzar moment, I mean, whatever that's going to turn into.
00:48:43And so we're living in interesting times now, you know.
00:48:47Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:48:48It scares the heck out of me because a lot of people, and you can read this in the comment
00:48:52feeds, they're like, well, why would you not want the New Apostolic Reformation's form
00:48:57of religion in the government?
00:48:59Why would you not want this?
00:49:01Because they're pushing good things.
00:49:02But the problem is, they are trying to reestablish the model that was in the old covenant.
00:49:09Because according to Christian identity, they're picking and choosing verses to try to reapply
00:49:14that to the nations of the British Isles and United States and Canada.
00:49:20And they're trying to reestablish this model that was for a different covenant, which means
00:49:25that if those quote-unquote Christians get in power, like they're trying to do, it means
00:49:30the form of Christianity that they're pushing now becomes law, which means me, who is not
00:49:36that type of Christian, now I have to conform to this false version of Christianity.
00:49:40Debra Ruh Right, right.
00:49:42So here's the scariest thought I would like your viewers to think about, because this
00:49:46is a real situation.
00:49:51All of the Christian folks that are thinking it's a good thing to have a Christian government
00:49:57with a Christian leader, you know, a dictator, one individual.
00:50:02Here's what they're missing, okay?
00:50:05The reliability, the moral reliability of that individual.
00:50:11Because everyone says, oh, this is all going to be good, excuse me?
00:50:15Here's what they don't know, and anyone can learn this if they want to study it.
00:50:20You've got to study church history.
00:50:24Because in church history, we see again and again and again the failure of the so-called
00:50:32good leader.
00:50:33I mean, look at Cromwell.
00:50:36I mean, the European wars in England, the civil wars, we have typical scenarios that
00:50:44are very much biblical.
00:50:46We have the failure of these leaders for various reasons.
00:50:51And we see it today.
00:50:52I mean, what scares the heck out of me is seeing some of this, getting to know some
00:50:57of these individuals that are running our country right now, and when we're starting
00:51:02to learn because of the internet, thank goodness, we can learn a lot about their personal lives
00:51:07and their thought patterns.
00:51:09And it's very terrifying because they are hypocrites.
00:51:12They are not righteous.
00:51:13None of us are righteous.
00:51:15We're all sinners.
00:51:17But Jesus' church is designed to protect the church from our own sinfulness from within
00:51:25and the darkness of the world from without.
00:51:28You know, so we get into trouble when we get away from the biblical model.
00:51:34And that's what's sad today, ironically, they're saying, oh, this is the biblical
00:51:38model, and it's not.
00:51:39You know, just open the Bible and study.
00:51:41But the moral failing of one individual that has all that power, that's not going to
00:51:50work out the way they think.
00:51:53And yikes.
00:51:54Yeah.
00:51:55Darrell Bock Absolutely not.
00:51:56And it really takes away, if you really think about what they're trying to say, we want
00:52:01to rule.
00:52:02We want to force other people to conform to our belief set, whether they're Christian
00:52:09or not.
00:52:10It's no different than what the Catholics did, you know, years ago whenever they were
00:52:15conquering different nations and trying to enforce this.
00:52:18What they ended up with, I went down to Mexico, and like I said, I'm fascinated with everything
00:52:24history archaeology.
00:52:26I went on a tour where the tour guide was also deeply knowledgeable about the religious
00:52:35history.
00:52:36And he was explaining that during the Spanish Inquisition, the local cultures were into
00:52:41shamanism in the area that I was in.
00:52:44And what happened was instead of conforming to Christianity, they had this new thing,
00:52:50which was shamanism and Christianity.
00:52:53And he was taking me to some of the shaman temples, and it was the weirdest thing, man.
00:52:57They were selling little trinkets that would have like the shaman gods and Jesus together
00:53:01in the same statue.
00:53:03Weird things like this, right?
00:53:05And so, what they're saying that they can do, even logically, it just doesn't make
00:53:10sense.
00:53:11It would never work.
00:53:12Dianne Rehm Well, and the Roman church is still powerful
00:53:14today, and we see it here in America.
00:53:19Romanism is underneath all of the American evangelicalism stuff.
00:53:25If you trace the theology of whatever group, you know, like the syncretism that you saw
00:53:31at the Spanish Inquisition, Rome is very good at gaining power over the world.
00:53:42In fact, there's a painting in the Vatican where it shows the Pope with the globe in
00:53:47one hand and the scepter of Christ in the other, what they call the scepter of Christ.
00:53:53And that is, that's their agenda, you know, to take over the world, which is against what
00:53:59the scripture says.
00:54:01Now, we're seeing it, ironically, we're seeing the same concept being adopted by Christian
00:54:05nationalists.
00:54:06We want to take over the USA by force.
00:54:13And what cracks me up, I mean, it's funny, not funny, it's like you guys, you're not
00:54:17even reading the Bible.
00:54:18I mean, what part of Jesus' conversation with Pilate don't you understand?
00:54:25Or I just appreciate, if you're going to reject that, just say so.
00:54:28You know, come out with it, because you're rejecting that.
00:54:32We don't see Paul going to Ephesus and saying, okay, you guys, you're worshipping a bunch
00:54:39of these goddesses and gods, and I'm protesting over that.
00:54:44You know, you don't see Paul doing that.
00:54:46Pete Not at all.
00:54:48Mary You know, what I think is gutsier is he walks
00:54:51into the intelligentsia there, right, and he says, hey, you guys are really religious.
00:54:56I just looked at all your idols and your temples, and you got this one temple that
00:55:01says to the unknown God, I'm here to talk to you about that temple.
00:55:05Pete Exactly.
00:55:06Mary You know?
00:55:07And I thought, man, that is so gutsy, wow.
00:55:12And the way he argues, I mean, that is our mission.
00:55:16That's the Christian mission today.
00:55:18And yeah, so I don't know, we're kind of on this roller coaster together.
00:55:23We're going to be � this is an e-ticket.
00:55:29Somehow I think biblical Christians like us, we're not going to do well, because I think
00:55:36we're in the minority.
00:55:37I don't know.
00:55:38Pete I think so.
00:55:39Yeah, I agree.
00:55:40We are in the minority, and there's a lot of people who have � they think they're
00:55:44Christian because they're involved with these movements that has taught them something that
00:55:48uses the name Christianity as what it is.
00:55:52But like you said, whenever you take a verse out of context, you are inventing the context.
00:55:58And I listened to sermon after sermon both in the cult, and unfortunately, after I left
00:56:04the cult and started entering some of the mainstream churches, I heard it in mainstream
00:56:08churches where they would take a little section of the chapter, and then they would try to
00:56:14bastardize that section to make it fit whatever was the agenda of their sermon.
00:56:19And many times, I knew the book that they're taking it from, I knew the chapter that they're
00:56:24taking it from, and I knew that it was actually saying the opposite of what that sermon said.
00:56:30And there were a couple times I actually got up and just walked out, because I can't listen
00:56:35to this, man.
00:56:36Once you read the book and understand what it says, you cannot listen to a man who's
00:56:41telling you the opposite of what it says.
00:56:44Those experiences I think should be talked about, because I got to believe other people
00:56:49are having moments like that.
00:56:51Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:56:52If you can't tell it about me already, I'm a bit of a troublemaker.
00:56:57Not by desire.
00:56:58It's just one of the churches we tried after leaving the cult, I joined the Bible study
00:57:05group because this fascinated me.
00:57:07I'm studying, and they're studying too.
00:57:09I want to learn more, right?
00:57:11And this guy gets up, and he was a rank in the church, and he was talking about how if
00:57:17you get angry, you are violating the Lord's command, and you're falling into sin.
00:57:24And I'm like, no, man.
00:57:26You cannot manipulate a person's emotions, or you're no better than the cult we just
00:57:30escaped.
00:57:31And I stood up and said, but Paul said, in your anger do not sin.
00:57:34Debra Blick There you go.
00:57:36And he was angry.
00:57:37Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:57:38He was angry at that moment.
00:57:39Debra Blick Paul was angry.
00:57:40Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:57:41Debra Blick Read the part in Galatians where he got angry at the Judaizers where they're
00:57:45doing circumcision again, and he says, go the whole way and cut it off if you're going
00:57:50to do that.
00:57:51Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:57:52Debra Blick And when I read that, that was like, oh, is he really saying that?
00:57:58Yes.
00:57:59The Apostle Paul is pissed.
00:58:01Darrell Bock This has been great fun.
00:58:02I think we've gone over an hour at this point, but I look so forward to the next one.
00:58:06Thank you so much for doing this.
00:58:08Debra Blick Oh, John, thank you for asking, and I wish you well, and I just look at your
00:58:13schedule every time I check in, and I think, you're doing, my gosh, are you doing this
00:58:19every day, every other day?
00:58:21Your schedule is just formidable.
00:58:23Darrell Bock It's insane.
00:58:24It's insane, and I have a day job.
00:58:26This isn't my job.
00:58:27I laugh when I see the comments.
00:58:29People say, they're doing this for money.
00:58:31Look, this is his day job.
00:58:34There's actually not a lot of money in doing this, friends.
00:58:36Debra Blick There's not a lot of money in discernment work.
00:58:39Uh-uh.
00:58:40Darrell Bock No.
00:58:41Debra Blick There just isn't, and yeah.
00:58:43Oh, bless your heart, John.
00:58:45Darrell Bock Anyway, thank you for doing this.
00:58:47Debra Blick Thank you so much, and I'm glad to be here today with you.
00:58:52Darrell Bock Awesome.
00:58:53Well, if you enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on
00:58:56the web.
00:58:57You can find us at william-branham.org.
00:59:00For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponize Religion, From
00:59:05Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and soon, Audible.