Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
John invites Nate Brooks to discuss personal experiences within charismatic and Pentecostal movements, focusing on the troubling aspects of these religious environments. Both John and Nate reflect on their upbringing in churches that, while providing positive community experiences, also propagated questionable theology and practices. They delve into the history of these movements, the blending of religion and politics, and the potential dangers of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and similar groups. The conversation also touches on the commercialization and politicization of Christianity, the misuse of scripture, and the rise of Christian nationalism.
As the discussion progresses, John and Nate express concerns about how these movements distort the message of Jesus and exploit religious beliefs for political agendas. They highlight the importance of returning to biblical teachings and avoiding the manipulation of scripture for personal or political gain. Both participants acknowledge the struggles of those who have left these movements, often feeling disillusioned or betrayed by their church experiences. The episode concludes with a call for a more authentic and scripturally grounded faith, free from the distortions and excesses that have come to characterize much of modern charismatic Christianity.
00:00 Introduction
02:28 Nate's Background and Early Church Experience
06:39 Reflections on Growing Up in a Charismatic Church
10:48 Struggles with Theological Differences and Disillusionment
15:12 Political and Religious Entanglements
20:29 The Rise of Charismania and Its Impact
24:01 Concerns About Weaponizing Religion in Politics
30:46 Historical Connections to Christian Identity and the NAR
36:35 The Concept of God's Kingdom and Misinterpretations
42:07 The Dangers of Misusing Scripture
48:22 The Problem of Commercialized Religion
54:32 The Dechurching Movement and a Call for Reform
56:51 Closing Remarks
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
John invites Nate Brooks to discuss personal experiences within charismatic and Pentecostal movements, focusing on the troubling aspects of these religious environments. Both John and Nate reflect on their upbringing in churches that, while providing positive community experiences, also propagated questionable theology and practices. They delve into the history of these movements, the blending of religion and politics, and the potential dangers of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and similar groups. The conversation also touches on the commercialization and politicization of Christianity, the misuse of scripture, and the rise of Christian nationalism.
As the discussion progresses, John and Nate express concerns about how these movements distort the message of Jesus and exploit religious beliefs for political agendas. They highlight the importance of returning to biblical teachings and avoiding the manipulation of scripture for personal or political gain. Both participants acknowledge the struggles of those who have left these movements, often feeling disillusioned or betrayed by their church experiences. The episode concludes with a call for a more authentic and scripturally grounded faith, free from the distortions and excesses that have come to characterize much of modern charismatic Christianity.
00:00 Introduction
02:28 Nate's Background and Early Church Experience
06:39 Reflections on Growing Up in a Charismatic Church
10:48 Struggles with Theological Differences and Disillusionment
15:12 Political and Religious Entanglements
20:29 The Rise of Charismania and Its Impact
24:01 Concerns About Weaponizing Religion in Politics
30:46 Historical Connections to Christian Identity and the NAR
36:35 The Concept of God's Kingdom and Misinterpretations
42:07 The Dangers of Misusing Scripture
48:22 The Problem of Commercialized Religion
54:32 The Dechurching Movement and a Call for Reform
56:51 Closing Remarks
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00You
00:30Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast.
00:37I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham historical research
00:42at william-branham.org and with me I have my very special guest, Nate Brooks,
00:47former member of Charismania and one step away from IHOPKC.
00:52Nate, it's good to have you on and tell about all of your experiences.
00:58I've had a few different people now contact me who were involved in the charismatic movement
01:03and what they described, you know, I've heard the term charismania for years now
01:08and I just kind of laughed at it and thought it was a non-factual insult.
01:13But the more that I hear people talk about it, it really is the only word that describes it.
01:18And then to think that you were that close to IHOP, the whole the whole thing,
01:23just it shocks me that this can even exist in today's world.
01:28Yeah, you know, yeah, that's a good point exist in today's world.
01:33There's a lot of crazy things that exist in today's world, though.
01:37And so, yeah, I think charismania kind of fits right into the milieu in some ways.
01:42There are a lot of crazy things, I'll admit, but I will say that this is one of the more unusual
01:49Just because of the history that I grew up with, it's a little bit difficult for me to believe that,
01:54number one, anybody bought into this thing that developed from latter rain,
01:59but number two, that it was allowed to continue.
02:02I'm shocked that, you know, I'm certain that there were good Bible understanding Christian ministers
02:09who stood up against it, don't get me wrong, but how did they not stop this?
02:16It's nothing like Christianity.
02:18But anyway, all that aside, maybe if we start just tell everybody a little bit about yourself
02:24and your connection to all of this.
02:28Well, I grew up in a kind of a non-denominational charismatic church in Iowa.
02:34Actually, I would say a very good church.
02:37You know, my memory of church growing up was in some ways very normal.
02:42There's the, you know, after church potluck type stuff.
02:47You know, people would come over to our house and swim after church.
02:51I remember my Sunday school teacher who was also my karate instructor
02:57who gave me a Bible I still have for when I graduated from high school with my name on it.
03:03I remember it.
03:05I don't really have any trauma or anything bad that happened from that period of my life.
03:11It was not a perfect church.
03:12I mean, we had problems just like anywhere else, but most families do.
03:18But I remember the adults who, you know, my parents especially,
03:23but other adults in our church being almost like a,
03:27I remember the safety of feeling brought up by a group of people.
03:32It felt like being kind of protected by a canopy of trees around you.
03:38And then there's, it was also weird though,
03:41like I didn't want to invite anybody from school to come to church with me
03:46because they might get hit in the head with a flag or, you know,
03:49when Braveheart came out, everyone brought their swords.
03:52That was a big era.
03:53People were, you know, around and that was, you know,
03:57so I knew I had these kind of two worlds between church and my friends at school
04:03that I knew I did not want to mix.
04:07But, you know, good people and genuine, honest, authentic Christians.
04:14Again, not without problems, but yeah, I would say it was a good way to grow up.
04:21These are the, I have a, you know, I disagree with some of the theology now,
04:26but it's hard for me to get away from the fondness of feeling like,
04:33hey, these people are who taught me the faith.
04:36And I do take some of those themes with me.
04:41Yeah.
04:42And then our pastor growing up was fairly well known in the charismatic environment
04:48in the like 80s, 90s, early 2000s.
04:51And so he would travel a bit with Mike Bickle.
04:55He wrote books.
04:56And so we were pretty connected to IHOP just relationally.
05:00A lot of friends I know have gone there, become staff and so forth.
05:05So I grew up being very aware of Mike Bickle and their whole crowd.
05:09At the same time in high school, I was kind of checked out just skating
05:14and doing hockey and kind of my own thing.
05:16So I kind of reconnected with a bunch of the more charismania stuff in college
05:22was when I really got into, you know, a lot of charismatic culture.
05:27Before then, I was just kind of, you know, along for the ride at the church I grew up at.
05:32You know, it's odd because when you look at all the many things that I have exposed
05:37on the website, I really can say practically the same thing.
05:42I grew up in a church world that it was very good to me.
05:48The people were very good.
05:50I strongly disagree now with all of the theology.
05:54But, you know, back then when you're a kid, you don't look at that stuff.
05:57We did have good morals.
05:59We had good respectable people.
06:01The people were really, really good people.
06:04And even though it is, you know, now it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt
06:08that this was connected to some very bad things, I can honestly say that
06:12the vast majority of the people that I knew had no idea that existed.
06:17But it was the underlying, you know, the underlying premise for all of it
06:21that once I realized what it was, I realized that, you know,
06:25I've got to get my family out of this.
06:27But it was very much similar right down to the, and I'm grabbing it,
06:32but right down to the sword, man.
06:34We didn't bring our swords to church, but we believed that
06:37William Branham had a magical sword.
06:39That was one of the theologies that I no longer agree with.
06:43I do not believe William Branham had a magical sword.
06:47But whenever I, when I talked about that on one of the podcasts,
06:53one of the former members sent me this play sword,
06:56and I keep it up here as a memento of the magic sword.
07:00But I can say that, though.
07:03You know, they were good people.
07:05They believed some very bad things that, you know, some of it was good,
07:10but some of it was just really bad.
07:12The premise behind it made it, you know, even more dangerous than we think.
07:19So I'm glad I'm out of it, and I'm certain that you're glad you're out of it as well.
07:23I would say we definitely had some latter rain influence.
07:27None of us, most of us did not really know that.
07:31I'm still talking about the church I grew up at.
07:33So there was the assumption that we're in the end times, whatever that means.
07:39I never really knew, no one ever really defined that for me.
07:42But there was the assumption that, like, Jesus is coming back real soon.
07:48And especially real soon if a Democrat is elected.
07:53You know, if a Republican is elected, we might have a little more time.
07:56That's kind of a – I'm halfway joking, but it did kind of feel that way.
08:02And then the assumption there's going to be an end time revival,
08:06just kind of perpetually right around the corner.
08:11That was – it wasn't, like, a hugely main theme,
08:14but it was just so in the water that you almost didn't need to talk about it.
08:17If that makes sense.
08:19I don't remember any sermons on it, but I do remember just the constant assumption.
08:23Those things.
08:26We didn't really talk about apostles and prophets very much.
08:29We believed in – our pastor, again, who was a very good man,
08:34his focus was prayer and spiritual warfare.
08:40And if you read most of his stuff, most of it is about becoming Christlike
08:45or taking on the nature of Christ.
08:48But, again, there are just some things around the fringes that I would not really –
08:55I'll put it this way.
08:56I wouldn't want my kids to be really focused on.
09:00So, yeah, I wouldn't say any of it was super damaging to me,
09:04but learning – especially from your podcast,
09:07learning some of the background of Latter-Rain-influenced groups
09:12has been extremely eye-opening for me.
09:17And in some ways – I don't want to go down a rabbit trail here or off to the side,
09:21but in some ways I imagine it would be a little bit like you grow up
09:25in just some random Southern Baptist church in Missouri,
09:29and to you it's normal Bible church, whatever.
09:33And then you grow up and you realize, okay, there's some history here with slavery,
09:37and maybe this denomination doesn't even exist without people trying to protect slavery.
09:44And then all this stuff more recently with them covering up a lot of sexual abuse things,
09:50and you're just like, wait, how do I put this together with –
09:54how do I put together the macro picture with the micro pictures of just
10:02I'm looking at the face of my Sunday school teacher.
10:04I'm looking at the face of my parents' friends, and I know their lives.
10:08I know how they've done life, and I respect them.
10:13I'm looking at the pastor I grew up with, and he's a good man.
10:19So it's those kind of things that make you – I don't know.
10:23It just makes you have to negotiate a line there where I'm not saying it's all good or bad,
10:29but life is kind of that way.
10:32It's not all good or bad, and you have to find your way through it.
10:35Darrell Bock I'm with you there.
10:36I'm still trying to piece all of it together for myself
10:39because my family was involved in this, and how do you reconcile that?
10:44My grandfather believed that William Branham was God in the flesh.
10:48How do you reconcile that?
10:50Did he serve a different God?
10:51It's hard to say no because he believed that this man was God in the flesh.
10:56But I'm fascinated with psychology,
10:59and I study psychology to no end trying to understand just how the mind works
11:05and how they can manipulate the heads like they do.
11:08And one of the concepts is that there is no really bad person.
11:13There are good people who do bad things,
11:16and that's really what I'm trying to frame this as
11:19because the situational – the environment that people are in,
11:25the situations that they're in, their life experiences,
11:28that molds them into what they are.
11:30And had they not had those experiences,
11:32they might have been something entirely different.
11:35So it's hard to say what happened and why.
11:38I just look at it, and I'm a little sad that so many people that I grew up with
11:42and respected should not have the level of respect that they had.
11:47Mike Long And I think that's certainly true
11:49when you zoom out to kind of larger charismatic culture,
11:53so much of which is just frankly like a cartoon.
11:58You started out saying it's a miracle anybody –
12:02maybe the big miracle of charismatic culture is that they talk anybody into it.
12:06That's not half bad, I don't think.
12:12There's a lot of weirdness and a lot that's just kind of cowboys and Indians.
12:19But again, going back to your podcast,
12:22it's helped me see some of the theological substructure,
12:25like where the ideas that formed me, especially in college, came from.
12:31So, yeah, maybe we can talk a little bit that direction
12:34because, yeah, I remember in college being –
12:38I went out to college at Biola University in California,
12:43which is the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.
12:45So it was a very – just kind of evangelical institutional college.
12:52And then simultaneously went to the Anaheim Vineyard.
12:56And for me, that was a pretty good balance of just getting a lot of Bible
13:02and then a church that was, again, down to earth, into the things of the Spirit.
13:08And again, I would say the same things about that church
13:12that I said about the church I grew up in.
13:15Most of what I take from there I learned in someone's living room,
13:18not at some conference.
13:20But we did – because we're in Los Angeles, we did go up to Cheyenne's Church.
13:27Do you know that name?
13:28I do.
13:29Yeah, so we went up to Cheyenne's Church quite a bit
13:32because they would have conferences at Harvest Rock.
13:34And so the whole – everybody would come there.
13:38And that was quite an experience.
13:41That was kind of my introduction to, as you say, charismania.
13:48And, yeah, that I have very mixed feelings about.
13:53And then, of course, the whole time I was also listening to stuff by Mike Bickle.
13:58But I was listening to John Piper too.
14:00I was listening to Chris Chan too.
14:03So it was kind of a both-and situation.
14:06I was never totally sucked in in an exclusive way.
14:09But, yeah, I definitely had a heavy dose of Mike Bickle in there too.
14:14So, yeah, I don't know where we want to go with that,
14:17but I could tell quite a few stories from that era.
14:22I've been working on my manuscript for the next book,
14:25which I think the book might actually come out before this podcast comes out.
14:30We're in the editing process now.
14:32But I have a chapter at the end that is dedicated to explaining some of the Cheyenne weirdness.
14:39It's also politicized today, and that's very surprising to me
14:44because they have, not to get into politics,
14:47but they've wrapped so much up into the politics
14:50that it's very difficult for them to separate their religion from the politics.
14:54So I kind of go through, walk through that history.
14:57Why is that, and how did that develop?
14:59And at the end of the book, it lands at Mike Bickle
15:04because that really was the epicenter for all of the political weirdness
15:08once you bring Joel's army into the mix.
15:11But I can say that, without a doubt, these men had more than just religion on their agenda.
15:20And whether it's Cheyenne or whether it's Mike Bickle,
15:23all of these guys, they had an agenda.
15:26And once you understand what that agenda was
15:28and realize how much different that is from Christianity,
15:31you have to ask yourself the question,
15:33is this even Christianity?
15:35What was this, and why did it exist?
15:37Is your perspective, because I think a lot of us kind of woke up to that in 2016.
15:43We were watching kind of what happened there
15:46and how our churches just jumped on board.
15:50And for a lot of us who grew up in this environment,
15:55it was kind of like, what just happened?
15:58Again, the people who taught me the faith,
16:01they've always been a little crazy, but they're going like full-on crazy now.
16:07So is your perspective that that has been in the water to the same degree this whole time?
16:17Or has it gotten worse?
16:20It's history repeating itself.
16:23In fact, I think it did already release before we're recording this today,
16:27but in the Weaponized Religion podcast,
16:30John McKinnon and I go through what I would call
16:35the epicenter of the first round of this history.
16:38Actually, it hasn't come out yet.
16:40It will come out before this podcast.
16:42But we talk about the events that happened in 1944
16:45when you had all of the crazy—it wasn't charismania back then.
16:50It was fundamentalism.
16:51But the crazy nutjobs were rising up against the Democrats
16:56and it was really the point in time in which those same religious nuts
17:03flipped from the Democrat Party to the Republican
17:06because they all rose up in opposition to Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
17:10They believed he was part of the Jewish conspiracy.
17:13And you had religious leaders like Charles Fuller,
17:19head of the Fuller Theological Seminary.
17:21He was in bed with these guys that were preaching Christian identity.
17:25And Gordon Lindsay, who's William Branham's campaign manager,
17:29who was largely responsible for the latter reign,
17:32he was speaking at Christian identity conferences
17:36at the point in time in which those Christian identity movements had turned racist.
17:40So you've got racism, Christian identity.
17:43They're all rising up against FDR.
17:46Well, there was a buildup until about the 60s.
17:50And in the 60s, it got very violent.
17:53Once the feds started investigating, all of it just kind of went underground.
17:57And I'll walk through this in the book so I won't tell the full story here.
18:02You can get the book and get the history.
18:04But it kind of reemerged right about at the point of the shepherding movement.
18:10You had Christian identity coming in again through Eldon Purvis.
18:14And it tried to surface and didn't.
18:16It went back underground.
18:18And what's interesting, which is part of the climax of the book,
18:22the feds started noticing Christian identity reemerging
18:27at the same exact time that Paul Cain, Bob Jones, Mike Bickle,
18:32they're bringing all of this Joel's Army stuff.
18:35And you can go look at the Johnson Amendment.
18:39They actually had to change the Johnson Amendment
18:41because these guys were getting ready to do again what they did in the 40s.
18:45Yeah, Joel's Army.
18:47So first time I remember hearing that phrase was Todd Bentley.
18:52So 2005, 2006, somewhere around there.
18:58I remember Todd Bentley talking about it.
19:02And I'd listen to some of his stuff.
19:05This is before the Lakeland Revival.
19:08So he was going around talking to that.
19:10And then it was also part of IHOP's prophetic history.
19:15So Paul Cain had an experience, allegedly,
19:19where the first time he went to IHOP,
19:21he sees the sign Joel's Army in training over the IHOP building.
19:29And, you know, that actually, that's a good thing to bring up
19:34because they've always kind of done a decent marketing or PR job
19:39around what that means.
19:43Kind of talking you out of the actual army that's in Joel 2
19:47and saying, oh, no, this is actually just an army of people praying.
19:52Or, excuse me, it's a good army.
19:54It's God's kind of end-time army.
19:57Even the military language, though, it's a big part of this movement,
20:02especially the prayer, spiritual warfare, prophetic part of the movement.
20:07A lot of the just general charismatic movement
20:11has kind of dropped a lot of military language
20:13because they think it's trying to appeal to a larger audience.
20:16But from the beginning, the kind of prophetic stream
20:20has always kind of viewed itself as an army and spoken in those terms.
20:25I did not pick up any political, you know, you grow up in that
20:30and you don't really cognate everything.
20:34I always thought of it as just a kind of a spiritual, you know,
20:39militancy type of thing.
20:43But it has for sure taken a political turn,
20:47partly because of how I think the word and the theology,
20:51the kingdom of God is viewed in this movement.
20:56There's kind of a, I don't know if you want to go down that road at all,
20:59but there's a kind of an, I'd say over-realized eschatology,
21:05meaning there's more of an expectation of God's kingdom on earth
21:09now than maybe is a biblically, you know, you have biblical warrant for.
21:15And that includes a political dimension where we're essentially,
21:21they won't say we're here to take over, but that's kind of the feeling.
21:27Yeah.
21:29And, you know, even if I'm not against a Christian influence
21:35in every part of our country,
21:39not that I want Christianity running things,
21:43I'm not a Christian nationalist by any means,
21:46but we do have a, you know, somewhat of a Christian heritage
21:50culturally speaking in our country, and I think that's a good thing.
21:54That's different than what these guys want,
21:57control of basically the commanding heights of the culture
22:03and the political sphere, and which in my mind,
22:07if any of those guys got any measure of control,
22:10I think our country would be done in about six months.
22:13So, you know, they can't even manage their own churches,
22:18let alone, you know, let them manage the country.
22:22So, you know, I don't know.
22:25Again, a lot of this just feels like a cartoon, though.
22:28You don't know how much of it to even take seriously
22:31or think like, is this really what they're trying to do here?
22:36Or whether it's just sort of, you know, little guys,
22:40when you don't have lots of influence, you can talk real big,
22:44if that makes any sense.
22:46And I'm trying to get a feel for like,
22:48how much influence does this movement actually have?
22:51Because if it's inconsequential and it's talking big,
22:54it's kind of like, okay, whatever, you know, sit down.
22:58If it's actually dangerous,
23:00then we need to do some thinking about it and talk about it.
23:05It's a real complex issue.
23:07You've probably seen in the comment threads,
23:09I get a lot of heat because anytime I mention Trump
23:13or the Trump administration or the NAR's connection to Trump,
23:16everybody says I'm a Democrat, which I'm not.
23:20I'm a registered Republican.
23:22So this is the first time I've ever said that out on the air,
23:26but I'll say that now.
23:28I actually am a Republican.
23:30But as a person who studies history,
23:33there are things that really scare me.
23:36And you can't look at it in a black or white way.
23:39It's very, very complex.
23:41And if you know the history, it would scare you too.
23:45The fact that I'm mentioning this
23:47in relation to what's going on today with Trump,
23:51it's not that I'm against Trump.
23:53It's that I see the dangers in what is happening
23:56in the political religious world.
23:58I too think that, you know, Christianity has some good morals.
24:02And like you said, the whole reason why this country exists
24:06is because of Christianity.
24:08The people came from England.
24:10They wanted to get away from the monarchy
24:12and they wanted the freedom to worship
24:14in the way that they wanted to worship Jesus
24:17without the Church of England or whatever.
24:21So I see all of that as good.
24:24There are some dangers, though, that really bother me.
24:27I am the opposite of a public speaker.
24:31I actually struggle a lot with doing this, if you can't tell.
24:35Speech in college, speech was the one class that I think I did pass,
24:40but I barely, by the skin of my teeth, passed it
24:42because I'm not a speaker.
24:45But after you've done it for a while,
24:47you start to pick up on things that you say
24:50that either excite, encourage, or, you know,
24:55motivate people to go do something.
24:58And you can sometimes say the wrong thing
25:00and they'll do the wrong thing or say the wrong thing.
25:03I can make a comment and I can watch the comment feeds
25:06and I get the feedback, and you learn this
25:08not by going to school, just by saying things.
25:11So here we have ministers who are saying things.
25:14They're saying some awfully politically charged,
25:18some very dangerous things.
25:20Well, as public speakers, they have to recognize
25:23the consequences of the words they say.
25:25I'm certain that they do.
25:27The problem comes in that whenever you say something
25:31that is militarized, it is for the sole purpose
25:34of activating people to do something.
25:36So you can use that, and it's very, very powerful
25:40towards taking people to whatever is your agenda
25:43and making them act out, you know, try to do it.
25:47But there are consequences that come with doing that
25:50because you have some people who are mentally unstable
25:53who may go act out in different ways than you intended.
25:56So when I see the things that are being said
25:59about the presidency, about the candidate
26:03who's trying to, you know, trying to get the NAR agenda
26:09into the White House, all of this stuff,
26:11and then I watch the NAR speakers, what they're saying,
26:14the scary part for me is I can identify
26:17almost every agenda in, say, for example, Wesley Swift,
26:23who is one of the most notorious
26:26Christian identity leaders of the 60s.
26:29He, too, like all of the NAR guys, was a preacher,
26:32and he was preaching.
26:34He didn't say, go take your weapons
26:36and go shoot people with black skin,
26:38but he used those same phrases,
26:40knowing that as he spoke them,
26:43there would be people who would go act out,
26:45and they would act out in ways that he didn't tell them to do,
26:48but he was using that language.
26:50So whenever I see them using weaponized language in a sermon,
26:54knowing that, yes, they're weaponizing it
26:58for the sake of getting Christianity into politics,
27:02it has a semi-good, quote-unquote, good agenda,
27:07but that same language can be used to create extremists,
27:11and those extremists can bring bad things into the country.
27:15Yeah, and I have no doubt that,
27:18because there are pictures of charismatic leaders
27:22preying over Trump, and we know they've had access,
27:25and we know they've had access to other,
27:28it's not, I don't even think it's super sinister or anything
27:31that they would have access to political leaders.
27:34Of course, they're going to court influence.
27:41I have no doubt that there are meetings and such
27:44where they talk about like,
27:46okay, here's how we can get behind you
27:48and have our people get behind you too,
27:50kind of like treating us as a voting bloc.
27:53And that's kind of, again, I think a lot of people,
27:57maybe some people don't care about that,
27:59but a lot of people, at least my age and younger,
28:03are not, that's like one of the main things
28:06that's making us disconnect,
28:08not just from charismatic church,
28:11but from just the whole kind of conservative evangelical swirl
28:15as we've realized how politically captured it is,
28:18and how, you know, not that,
28:23yeah, not that there's any perfect political movement,
28:26but when you're politically captured,
28:29again, you just sit there and you go, wait a minute,
28:31I'm not dumb.
28:34You're not just going to kind of string me along
28:37to basically conflate a political movement
28:40with what God's will,
28:42and expect me not to think about that,
28:45or expect me just to kind of go along with that.
28:48And there is a lot of charged language,
28:50spiritually charged language,
28:52about what will happen to the country
28:54if so-and-so gets in, or doesn't get in,
28:57or what, you know.
28:59And that, I remember waking up to that in about 2016.
29:04I've always felt permission to have my own opinion,
29:09but it was around 2016 when I realized, like,
29:13this whole thing is pretty captured,
29:16and that's not a good feeling.
29:19Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,
29:22or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism
29:25transitioned through the Latter Rain,
29:27Charismatic, and other fringe movements
29:30into the New Apostolic Reformation?
29:32You can learn this and more
29:34on William Branham Historical Research's website,
29:37william-branham.org.
29:39On the books page of the website,
29:41you can find the compiled research
29:43of John Collins, Charles Paisley,
29:45Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
29:49with links to the paper, audio,
29:51and digital versions of each book.
29:53You can also find resources and documentation
29:56on various people and topics
29:58related to those movements.
30:00If you want to contribute to the cause,
30:02you can support the podcast by clicking
30:04the contribute button at the top.
30:06And as always, be sure to like and subscribe
30:09to the audio or video version
30:11that you're listening to or watching.
30:13On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,
30:15we want to thank you for your support.
30:18I have some good examples in the book,
30:20but I think people would be surprised
30:22at just the level of connections
30:25between people who you might think
30:28have a good agenda, but they're connecting
30:30with, for example, one of the Trump rallies
30:34had, I can't remember the lady's name,
30:37you'd have to get it in the book,
30:39but they are holding a rally
30:42with the son of Moon,
30:45who is the founder of the Moonies.
30:47This is the guy that has the AK-47s
30:49and is weaponizing his church.
30:51Well, when you bring NAR groups together
30:54with those types of extremists,
30:56and they're holding hands
30:58and presenting a unified front,
31:00well, what are you unifying with?
31:02That's the real problem here.
31:04And then take it a step further.
31:06Once you connect it to organizations
31:09like the Fellowship International,
31:11the family, where you've got,
31:13now you've got big business
31:16that's getting in bed with religion.
31:18The big business has the funding
31:20to fund the religion.
31:22And now you've got this interface
31:24where religion, politics, and money
31:26all create this cohesive unit.
31:29Well, if the NAR people back off,
31:32they might lose that funding.
31:34So now they're being controlled and manipulated.
31:36Which is ironic, right?
31:38Because you've got the manipulators
31:39that are also being manipulated.
31:41So it's not a black or white issue.
31:43This is just so complex
31:45that it's hard to explain.
31:47Like I said earlier,
31:48I just see the dangers of it,
31:49and the fact that there are good,
31:51really, really good people
31:53who genuinely want to worship God,
31:56who are in these churches like this,
31:58Charismania, NAR,
32:00all of these churches,
32:02and they have no idea
32:03what's going on behind the scenes.
32:05They're like you.
32:06They see the politics,
32:07and they're like,
32:08why are we doing this?
32:09Why are we not talking about the Bible?
32:11And they don't understand
32:12that there's a whole agenda behind it
32:13that is causing it.
32:15That has a huge history to it.
32:17Exactly.
32:18Yeah.
32:19Yeah.
32:20Yeah.
32:22And just to go back to that,
32:24that idea of kingdom for a sec,
32:26because that phrase gets,
32:28that phrase has been politicized
32:31quite a bit.
32:33And just to, you know,
32:36you mentioned Charles Fuller.
32:38Was that his first name, Charles?
32:40Yes.
32:42So Fuller Theological Seminary,
32:44there was a theologian there
32:47named George Ladd in the 70s.
32:49I don't know if you've heard of him,
32:51but he put a view forward
32:55of the kingdom that the vineyard adopted
32:57that for my money gets,
33:01I think, pretty close to a good idea
33:03of what the kingdom of God is in this age.
33:06And he talked about,
33:08he wasn't the first one to talk about it,
33:09but he talked about an already
33:12and not yet reality to the kingdom
33:14where there's a certain part
33:16of the kingdom that's available now.
33:18You know, Jesus came and he announced
33:20the kingdom of God is at hand.
33:22There's some present reality.
33:24He looked at, you know,
33:26while he was doing exorcism,
33:27he looked at someone and said,
33:28if I've cast out demons
33:30by the spirit of God,
33:31then the kingdom of God
33:32has come upon you.
33:34There's the great kind of hope
33:36of the restoration of Israel
33:38could be summed up in the idea
33:40of the kingdom.
33:41And Jesus came announcing
33:42that it's here.
33:45Then he dies,
33:47goes, you know,
33:49is resurrected and ascends,
33:51and he pours his spirit out
33:53on his church.
33:54And his church,
33:56if you, you know,
33:57one of the main metaphors
33:59for the church is Christ's body.
34:01So there is some,
34:03in my mind,
34:04there is some present day
34:08ministry of Jesus
34:09that happens through the church.
34:10You could call the church
34:12the present day ministry of Jesus.
34:13That's what we're supposed
34:14to be up to.
34:15And it should look quite a bit
34:17like what he did back then.
34:19I think that's what people get sucked
34:21into charismatic churches for,
34:23is to have their light,
34:26to be a part of something
34:27that looks like Jesus.
34:28That's not what we get usually
34:30when we sign up.
34:31But that's kind of what the hunger is.
34:33When you're 18, 19, 20,
34:35and you want to follow God,
34:37there's a legitimate hunger there
34:41to live in step with the Savior,
34:44not just believing in him,
34:45but doing what he did,
34:47ministering like he ministered.
34:49It's not all about power.
34:51One of the keystone passages
34:54of his ministry was Luke 4.18,
34:57which, you know,
34:58in IHOP,
34:59I know that was a big,
35:00kind of a promise
35:01that has a history or whatever,
35:04but it never,
35:05it doesn't need to be a promise.
35:06He inaugurated it.
35:07He was doing it.
35:08He's poured his spirit out
35:09on his church.
35:10He never stopped doing these things.
35:14And so we don't need to wait for it
35:16like some big promise,
35:17but the spirit of the Lord is upon me
35:20because he's anointed me
35:21to bring good news to the,
35:23to who?
35:24To the poor,
35:25to bind up the brokenhearted,
35:27to set the captives free,
35:29to proclaim the year
35:30of the Lord's favor.
35:32That's kind of a DNA message
35:34of Jesus's ministry
35:35and what his kingdom,
35:37his kingdom message is about now.
35:40There's a part of it
35:42that's here now
35:43in terms of power
35:44in the sense that
35:45sometimes we pray for people
35:46and they're healed.
35:47Sometimes we pray for people
35:49and they're not though.
35:50And we're not ever going to see
35:52a full consummation of the kingdom
35:54until,
35:55until Christ returns.
35:56And so we,
35:57we do the ministry of Jesus now
35:59in little ways.
36:00And if you zoom out,
36:01the church ought to look,
36:03the church as a whole
36:04ought to look like
36:05Jesus walking around on the earth.
36:08None of,
36:09none of us individually
36:10have the full ministry of Jesus,
36:11but as a whole,
36:12we ought to look like that.
36:15But again,
36:17we're not going to be resurrected now.
36:19We're not going to have any kind of,
36:21I don't think we should expect
36:22any kind of control
36:24or political victory now.
36:26Not that we shouldn't be involved,
36:28but when you're over realizing
36:30the,
36:31what you mean by kingdom,
36:33you can,
36:34that's,
36:35I think where you get in trouble
36:36where you're going into
36:37these political movements.
36:38You're,
36:39you're looking for political power.
36:40You're looking for position,
36:42looking for,
36:43basically trying to enact God's kingdom
36:47with your own,
36:48with your own heart and mind
36:50out of step with what Jesus
36:52is actually doing today.
36:54And that's,
36:55I think another big thing
36:56that people are reacting to
36:57where it's like,
36:58how come these movements,
36:59you know,
37:00you have these scandals happen
37:01and how come like all the wagon circle
37:04we start,
37:05we start just,
37:06you know,
37:07hiring lawyers,
37:08protecting ourselves.
37:10And,
37:11you know,
37:12all of a sudden we're looking
37:13nothing like Jesus
37:14and how he treats victims,
37:16how he treats the poor,
37:18the sick,
37:19the downtrodden.
37:20How come that,
37:21you know,
37:22it's the height of irony
37:23that a so-called spirit-filled movement
37:26would be behaving in a way
37:29that's the antithesis
37:31of what Jesus said he was about.
37:34So I'm not trying to like preach or anything,
37:36but that's,
37:37I think a lot is wrapped up
37:38in that word kingdom.
37:40That if we need to tease out
37:42and go back and kind of dust off,
37:44what does that actually mean?
37:45Darrell Bock
37:46You know,
37:47Jesus said the whole Old Testament,
37:48the law and the prophets
37:49are summed up in
37:50love God,
37:51love your neighbor as yourself.
37:53But what these ministers have done
37:56most of the time
37:57whenever they get involved
37:58in their agendas,
38:00they like to use the example of Jesus
38:03overturning the money changers,
38:04money tables.
38:06But the way they present it
38:08is as if that is Jesus' ministry,
38:10turning over the money tables.
38:12That's only one example
38:13out of hundreds that we have, right?
38:16So they're not getting
38:17the full and complete Jesus.
38:18You have the angry Jesus,
38:20and it's not the Jesus of the Bible
38:23if you portray him that way.
38:25So I have a problem with that.
38:28And again, historically,
38:30I go back to the kingdom theology.
38:32We've examined the supreme kingdom
38:35which came out of the clan.
38:38You're probably familiar with that.
38:39But the fact that...
38:41Yeah, it's crazy history, man.
38:44The fact that the NAR 7 mountain mandate
38:47isn't new.
38:48They just gave it a name.
38:49But you go back in history,
38:51and you can see they're doing
38:52the same exact thing.
38:53They're saying the same exact thing
38:55over and over.
38:56But it's a politicized movement
38:57that's doing it.
38:59And I have no problem
39:02with trying to vote for the right thing,
39:05vote for the right person
39:06who's doing the right thing.
39:07I have no problem with this at all.
39:09But the moment in which
39:10you take your religion
39:12and try to mold it around a Jesus
39:14that is the angry Jesus
39:15and not the entire picture,
39:17there's a problem there.
39:18It's a false religion
39:20when it gets to that point.
39:22So I just had to back up.
39:24I can't be a part of that.
39:25That's not me.
39:26I can't be the angry Jesus.
39:29I'll make kind of a side point
39:30to what you're saying
39:31because I totally agree with you.
39:33At the same time, though,
39:34when we're talking about,
39:36I think it's good to know
39:37that God gets angry at certain things
39:40because that's, again,
39:42another, I think,
39:43misstep of some
39:44of the charismatic movement
39:45where there's a phrase
39:47that went around for a long time,
39:49God's always in a good mood,
39:52or there was a kind of God's goodness,
39:56and His goodness not meaning
39:57just He in Himself is good,
40:00but His goodness in the sense
40:01of He's good to me
40:04was kind of one of the top teachings
40:07that was going around for a while.
40:09And that's good as far as it goes,
40:10especially if you grow up
40:11in a heavily judgmental environment.
40:14It's good to get that other side of it
40:17through your head a bit.
40:19When you start talking
40:20about some of the stuff
40:21Mike Bickle did, though,
40:23and some of the, like,
40:25what's his name down in Texas
40:28that just had that thing happen
40:32where the, you know,
40:34I forget his name,
40:35but Robert Morris,
40:38I think God gets angry
40:39at that kind of stuff.
40:40And I think He's angry at the,
40:43I mean, obviously,
40:44He gets angry at that kind of stuff.
40:46I think He's angry
40:47at the commercialization.
40:48Aside from the politicized stuff,
40:50we've also turned this whole thing
40:51into a business.
40:53It's heavily commercialized,
40:55and I think a really good picture
40:57is Jesus is, you know,
40:59going through the temple,
41:01throwing the money tables around.
41:03Like, I do think there's a part
41:05of the Lord that's looking
41:07at the charismatic movement
41:09and more than the charismatic movement
41:12and saying,
41:13why have you turned my father's house
41:15into a marketplace?
41:18Because it is, man.
41:20We have done that.
41:22We've totally done that.
41:24And I think we have a moment here
41:26that it may,
41:27because of all the scandals,
41:28I think we have a moment
41:29that may last a year or two
41:31where we could reform some stuff.
41:33I'm not confident it'll happen.
41:35But I'm starting to think about
41:37what a post-charismatic,
41:40not movement,
41:41I hate the word movement now,
41:42but just where do the exiles go?
41:45How do you decommercialize this thing?
41:46How do you de-laterane the thing?
41:49How do we get to a place where,
41:53you know, those of us
41:54who want to be part of churches
41:55that emphasize the power
41:56and presence of God,
41:58but, you know,
42:00see that the whole thing
42:01has become a grift,
42:03where do we go?
42:05You beat me to my climax, man.
42:07Sorry.
42:08No, it's okay.
42:09I was heading for context
42:11because one of the things
42:13that British Israelism
42:14and Christian identity
42:15did to Christian religion
42:17in America
42:18is that it ripped out context.
42:20You don't have to have
42:21context of scripture
42:22to preach a sermon
42:23about a passage of scripture
42:25in these movements.
42:27And when you think about
42:28the money changers,
42:29the money tables,
42:30the whole irony
42:31that I was building up to
42:32is the fact that
42:33they're doing exactly
42:35the context of that scripture.
42:37So you beat me to it.
42:39Absolutely.
42:40We're all on the same page.
42:41Yeah.
42:42It's, I mean,
42:43it's so wrong.
42:44The fact that they
42:47don't care to twist scripture
42:49in that way,
42:50that they'll take it
42:51out of context
42:52and make,
42:53they're literally reversing
42:54the role of the Bible.
42:56They make the Bible
42:57match their sermons
42:58instead of their sermons
42:59match the Bible.
43:00And how do you,
43:02the question that you ask,
43:04how do you de-laterane this,
43:06de-charismania?
43:08In my opinion,
43:09it's simple.
43:10Just go back to the Bible.
43:11The Bible says exactly
43:12what it needs to say.
43:14And if you read it
43:15in the context
43:16in which it's written,
43:17you have a pretty good sermon.
43:18But I've,
43:19I grew up with sermons
43:21where the ministers
43:22would say,
43:23now for the sermon
43:24I'm giving you today,
43:25I'm going to give you
43:26a little context of scripture.
43:28And they'll just read
43:29one little verse.
43:30And they build,
43:31build their whole sermon
43:32off of the one verse,
43:34but their sermon
43:35didn't match the passage
43:36that they read it from.
43:37In fact, sometimes
43:38I caught it being polar opposite.
43:41So, you know,
43:42go back,
43:43just go back to the Bible
43:44and let the Bible
43:45be your guide
43:46and forget about
43:47all of this nonsense.
43:49Absolutely.
43:50I remember actually going to,
43:52when I first showed up
43:53at Bible college
43:55in California,
43:57I remember the realization,
43:59you know,
44:00holding my Bible,
44:01I remember thinking like,
44:02oh my gosh,
44:03this thing actually
44:04says something.
44:05This isn't just,
44:06because honestly I thought,
44:07I thought until then
44:09that it was like
44:10a string of fortune cookie
44:11type sayings
44:13that you would use.
44:14It's a magic potion.
44:16Yeah, that kind of
44:17springboard off of
44:18to say whatever you wanted to say.
44:20A good bit of that,
44:22again, like our church
44:23growing up had good teaching,
44:24it just wasn't expository.
44:27It wasn't the kind of place
44:28where you'd go through like,
44:30we're going through Romans.
44:32So that's,
44:33and half of me
44:34wasn't even paying attention
44:35even if they were doing that.
44:36But,
44:37but yeah,
44:38I remember waking up
44:39to the fact that like,
44:40oh my gosh,
44:41this thing's talking to me.
44:43It actually has something
44:44to say on its own.
44:46And I,
44:47you know,
44:48your point about
44:49reading the Bible,
44:50that,
44:51that could be,
44:52you know,
44:53it's sometimes it's
44:54the simplest things
44:55that make the most difference
44:56and that could be
44:57one of the,
44:58the most potent things
45:01to kind of detoxify
45:03your mind from some of this.
45:07There's,
45:08because,
45:09because so much of the,
45:10the authority of the Bible
45:11isn't just the authority
45:12of having like
45:13the right answer
45:14about this or that.
45:15The authority of the Bible
45:16is that it's a meta narrative.
45:18It's a story
45:19that sits over our lives
45:20and directs,
45:21directs our lives
45:22in the same way
45:23that great stories do.
45:25That's why,
45:26you know,
45:27a good bit of the authority
45:28of the Bible
45:29is vested in the way
45:30that it's written.
45:31And most of it's a story.
45:33And so it tells us
45:34who the people of God
45:36have been,
45:37where we're going,
45:38where we're going to end up,
45:39what our role is here.
45:41And it doesn't give you
45:42every answer to every question.
45:44It's not going to tell you,
45:45you know,
45:46how to interact with your iPhone.
45:47But it,
45:48it tells you
45:50deeper substructure type things
45:52that are,
45:53that you get through story.
45:54And the,
45:55I think the big part of,
45:57you know,
45:58part of that
45:59is letting the biblical narrative
46:00be the main narrative
46:01in your mind
46:03as opposed to
46:05competing narratives
46:06like the prophetic history.
46:09The prophetic history,
46:10Mike Bickle's prophetic history
46:11competes for the same space
46:13in the mind
46:14that the biblical narrative does.
46:17You know,
46:18and there are like,
46:19there are secular narratives
46:20out there about,
46:21that are essentially trying to
46:23attain utopia now
46:25on this side of things
46:26that compete for the same space
46:28in the mind
46:29that the biblical narrative does.
46:31And so letting your mind
46:32soak in the Bible
46:33in a very broad way,
46:36not just cherry picking verses,
46:38I think is huge.
46:41You know,
46:42and I think that's a big,
46:43when we talk about the authority
46:44of the Bible again,
46:45I think that's a big part
46:46of what we mean.
46:47Not just that the Bible
46:48gets to answer
46:49specific questions
46:50on specific topics
46:51that we have,
46:52you know,
46:53that we're wondering about.
46:54Yeah, I agree.
46:55You know,
46:56there's a,
46:57there's a big
46:58de-churchification movement
46:59that's happening.
47:00I use the word movement again.
47:01But people who,
47:02who have been abused
47:03by this type of religion,
47:04whenever they get
47:05into another church
47:06that wasn't part
47:07of this religion,
47:08they can sense
47:09when ministers
47:10are doing the same thing,
47:11and then it turns
47:12their stomach.
47:13They become hypersensitive
47:14to it.
47:15And I grew up,
47:16like I said,
47:17I grew up in the,
47:18you know,
47:19in the Branham cults,
47:20but there are variations
47:21of the Branham cult.
47:22And sometimes you would go
47:23into the more
47:24heavily influenced churches
47:25that were heavily influenced
47:26by Pentecostalism,
47:27and you would go
47:28into the more
47:29conservative churches
47:30that were heavily influenced
47:31by Pentecostalism,
47:32and they have this weird
47:33structure in the sermons.
47:34They would rattle off
47:35a verse,
47:36because they've got
47:37them all memorized.
47:38They'd rattle off
47:39a verse from one book,
47:40and then a verse
47:41from the next book,
47:42and you might have
47:4320 minutes of
47:44here's this verse,
47:45and here's this other verse,
47:46and here's this.
47:47And they're adding them
47:48together to make a story
47:49that wasn't in the Bible.
47:50It's just the story
47:51when you concatenate
47:52all of those verses.
47:53And context is critical.
47:54Like you said,
47:55the Bible is a book
47:56of stories.
47:57Well,
47:58some of the stories
47:59in the Bible
48:00are stories.
48:01Well,
48:02some of those stories
48:03weren't of good things.
48:04There were stories
48:05of bad things
48:06that happened,
48:07and here were
48:08the consequences
48:09for the bad thing
48:10that happened.
48:11And while you're talking,
48:12it reminded me of this.
48:13I saw this funny meme,
48:14but you know
48:15those little calendars
48:16that's got the
48:17daily motivational passage
48:18from the Bible?
48:19Apparently,
48:20somebody wrote
48:21a software
48:22that does this
48:23and pulls verses
48:24from the Bible
48:25at random,
48:26and the verse
48:27for July 3rd
48:28was,
48:29Therefore,
48:30worship me,
48:31all shall be thine.
48:32Which,
48:33that sounds like
48:34a great Bible verse,
48:35but if you know
48:36the context
48:37of where that came from,
48:38that is Satan
48:39talking to Jesus,
48:40asking Jesus
48:41to bow down
48:42and worship him.
48:43Well,
48:44in the Pentecostal-style churches,
48:45what if you rattled
48:46off that scripture?
48:47You could use it
48:48in your context,
48:49and that's the way
48:50that they've done this,
48:51but the problem,
48:52where I'm headed
48:53with all of this
48:54rambling is
48:55the problem is
48:56because that structure
48:58existed,
48:59and then Charismania
49:00built on top of it,
49:01and now the NAR
49:02is building on top
49:03of Charismania,
49:04there are root elements
49:06of the structural design
49:07of a sermon
49:08that they're using
49:09to weaponize
49:10against politics,
49:11and some of the things
49:12that they're using
49:13to weaponize,
49:14that some of the scriptures
49:15they're using,
49:16aren't really fitting
49:17their agenda.
49:18It's fitting the agenda
49:19of Satan.
49:20So now you have
49:21the question,
49:22well,
49:23what if these are
49:24ministers of Satan?
49:25And I'm not going
49:26to make that leap.
49:27That's not for me
49:28to answer,
49:29but that's a problem
49:30when you have ministers
49:31that are weaponizing
49:32the Bible for an agenda,
49:33and they're not even
49:34paying attention
49:35to what their sermons
49:36are saying.
49:37Yeah,
49:38and one of the,
49:39you know,
49:40to ministers of Satan,
49:41at the very least,
49:42I think there ought
49:43to be some sort
49:44of ordination process,
49:45and there isn't.
49:46There isn't.
49:47It's just,
49:48you can go hang a shingle
49:49and become an apostle
49:50so-and-so,
49:51and if you're
49:52not paying attention
49:53to what they're
49:54saying,
49:55then you're
49:57if you're,
49:58you know,
49:59charismatic enough,
50:00you know,
50:01people will
50:02follow you.
50:03So,
50:04yeah,
50:05it's a mess,
50:06and especially now
50:07politically,
50:08commercially,
50:09the whole thing
50:10at a high level,
50:11again,
50:12I would not want
50:13my kids to become
50:15part of that.
50:17Yeah.
50:20Yeah,
50:21you mentioned deconstruction,
50:22or de-churching,
50:23and I have a
50:26I have a pretty soft
50:28spot in my heart
50:29for people who are
50:30going through that.
50:34When I was growing up,
50:35the people who left church
50:37were like the kids
50:38who wanted to party
50:39and do stuff,
50:44and now it feels like
50:45we're losing the good kids.
50:49We're losing the people
50:50with a strong sensitivity
50:53to moral injustice,
50:55and that,
50:56because of the kind of things
50:58we're talking about,
50:59and that ought not be.
51:01I,
51:02you know,
51:03I'm a little bit tuned in
51:04to some of the
51:07social media stuff
51:08on like,
51:09you know,
51:10people talking about
51:11these scandals on Twitter,
51:12and I find myself agreeing
51:14almost the most
51:15with a lot of the people
51:17who have de-churched,
51:18you know,
51:19have the most Jesus-like
51:20things to say,
51:21who don't even know
51:22where they're at
51:23with their faith,
51:24or if they,
51:25you know,
51:26believe in anything anymore,
51:27and I have a lot of friends
51:28that have gone down that road,
51:30and I just,
51:32I almost did myself, actually.
51:34In 2018,
51:35I had about 18 months
51:37where I call it,
51:39I don't know if you ever
51:43listened to
51:44or watched
51:45or read
51:46Chronicles of Narnia,
51:48but there's a scene
51:49where,
51:50in the silver chair,
51:51where Puddleglum
51:52and Jill
51:53and Eustace, I think,
51:55are all down underground
51:56with the witch,
51:57and she's convincing them,
51:59like,
52:00they're talking to her about
52:01what it's like up top,
52:02up in Narnia,
52:03and she's,
52:04the witch is convincing them
52:06that they're,
52:07basically,
52:08this is the only world there is,
52:09and she's saying,
52:10oh, the sun,
52:11isn't that a nice idea?
52:12You know,
52:13oh,
52:14tell me about the sky,
52:15what a fanciful thing
52:16to talk about the sky,
52:17and Puddleglum eventually,
52:19you know,
52:20kind of says,
52:21like,
52:22look,
52:23I can't,
52:24you're doing a good job
52:25of convincing me
52:26none of this is real,
52:27but,
52:28even if it's not,
52:29I'd rather live like it is,
52:30and I think I spent
52:31about 18 months
52:32in that place
52:33where it just,
52:34none of it felt real,
52:36and part of it was,
52:37was deconstructing
52:39from some of this
52:40kind of church stuff.
52:41Some of it was,
52:42honestly,
52:43intellectual problems
52:44I've had with the Bible,
52:45you know,
52:48but,
52:50for about 18 months,
52:51it was like the light
52:52just turned off,
52:53and I didn't even feel
52:54like God was real,
52:55and all I had to go off of,
52:57really,
52:58was the memory
52:59of kind of times
53:00I've experienced God before,
53:03and knowing that,
53:04like,
53:05my parents are the real deal,
53:08knowing that you get down
53:09to some very basic things,
53:11so I guess all I'm saying
53:12is that I have a,
53:14I have a lot of understanding
53:15for people
53:16who are going through
53:19either a really dark time,
53:21or who have totally deconstructed,
53:23and I think we need more room
53:24for that in our churches.
53:25The charismatic movement
53:27is overly victorious.
53:29Again,
53:30going back to some of this
53:31Kingdom Now stuff,
53:32it's overly victorious,
53:33and there's,
53:34I think it's merged
53:35with some of the
53:36social media influencer culture
53:38where everyone's just winning
53:40all the time,
53:41and that's kind of the,
53:43the feeling you get
53:44out of charismatic churches
53:45is if you can't make this work
53:47for you all,
53:48like God turns into
53:49a gumball machine almost,
53:51where you're getting
53:52something out of it,
53:53and if you don't know
53:54how to work the system,
53:55you're doing something wrong.
53:57And so that overly victorious thing,
53:59I think the Bible itself
54:01has more room
54:02for the breadth of human emotion
54:04and experience
54:05than our churches do.
54:07And so again,
54:08and what I like thinking about
54:10in maybe a post-charismatic
54:12type of environment
54:14would be that we have room for,
54:16so those people can have
54:18serious doubts about faith
54:20for years,
54:21or not even really believe
54:22and still feel comfortable
54:23in our churches,
54:25because there's too many bodies
54:27behind the bus,
54:29so to speak,
54:30to just ignore.
54:32There is something not working
54:34on a pretty systemic level.
54:36Yeah, I would agree with that.
54:38I actually don't use the term
54:40de-churched whenever I
54:42consider the people.
54:43I look at it like
54:44Christian agnostics.
54:46Because if you think about the people,
54:48the believers in Berea
54:49who sought out the scriptures
54:51and found Jesus to be true,
54:53they were agnostic to the idea.
54:55They weren't hard set against it.
54:57They weren't hard set for it.
54:59They just, you know,
55:00show me the proof.
55:01Show me what's actually real.
55:04And I think that's what
55:06these people are doing
55:07because they were sold
55:08a false bill of goods.
55:09They realize that it's
55:10this false Christianity.
55:12The problem is they left,
55:14many of them,
55:15and they go into another church
55:17and they have similar experiences
55:19because the influence of this
55:21is widespread.
55:22They may not even be
55:23in a charismatic or NAR church.
55:25I've attended just regular
55:27small non-denominational churches here
55:29that I can see the same influence
55:31and the people,
55:33some of what they said was nonsense.
55:35I'm just going to say it plain and simple.
55:37And so I was turned off by that.
55:39I don't like nonsense anymore.
55:41I'm hypersensitive to it.
55:43So some of these people
55:44had bad experiences after leaving
55:46and then they consider themselves
55:48de-churched.
55:49But if you think about
55:51the meaning of that word,
55:53it means that they're really not
55:54giving up on the idea of it.
55:56But they don't like the church.
55:58They don't like the organization
56:00and the structure.
56:01And that's the real problem.
56:03And I think, like you said,
56:05if ministers were just
56:06get rid of this,
56:07go back to the Bible,
56:08quit all of the nonsense,
56:10people who are hypersensitive
56:12against the nonsense
56:13might start attending church.
56:15And then there will be
56:17this new movement called
56:18the re-churchified movement.
56:22So thank you so much
56:23for doing this with us today.
56:25I'm certain that a lot of people
56:26are going to be encouraged
56:27by what you had to say.
56:29I appreciate your time, John.
56:30Thanks for having me.
56:31Well, if you've enjoyed our show
56:32and you want more information,
56:33you can check us out on the web.
56:35You can find us at
56:36william-branham.org
56:39For an overview of
56:40The Dark Side of the NAR,
56:41read Weaponize Religion
56:43From Christian Identity to the NAR.
56:45Available on Amazon, Kindle,
56:47and soon Audible.
57:09The Dark Side of the NAR
57:13is a production of
57:15WILD ARROWS
57:17with the support of
57:19WILD ARROWS
57:21Inc.
57:23www.wildarrowsinc.com
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