Our Stories: Escape From YWAM - Pascale Chancey - Episode 198 Branham Research Podcast - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/branham   Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast   Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K  John invites Pascal Chansy, a former missionary with YWAM (Youth With A Mission) to discuss her escape from the movement. Pascal shares insights into her background, growing up in a multicultural setting in Mali, and later transitioning to involvement in YWAM, highlighting the influence of both her family and Christian networks. She reflects on her time with YWAM, sharing both positive and critical views on its mission work and doctrinal impact. Pascal emphasizes how teachings in YWAM, tied to movements such as the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation), shaped her approach to Christian missions and worldview, particularly in relation to the concept of Dominionism.  As the conversation continues, Pascal touches on the challenges he faced after joining YWAM, including the physical and emotional toll of missionary work. She explains how her education at prestigious boarding schools didn't shield him from the lure of mission work, and how her involvement in YWAM eventually led to disillusionment. The interview delves into YWAM's global network, its decentralized structure, and the lasting influence of its founder, Loren Cunningham. Pascal and John also explore YWAM’s connection to broader Christian networks and movements like IHOP (International House of Prayer) and Bethel Church, discussing how these ties fostered the growth of modern charismatic movements.  00:00 Introduction   01:08 Pascal Chansy's Background in Mali   04:00 The Influence of French Canadian Christianity   06:32 The Start of YWAM and Its Vision   09:00 Early Missionary Work and the Role of Youth   12:24 Reflection on Indoctrination vs. Helping   16:05 YWAM's Ties to the Latter Rain Movement   20:03 Worship and Ministry in YWAM   23:24 Exhaustion as a Manipulative Tool in Ministries   26:04 Pascal’s Decision to Join YWAM   30:02 YWAM’s Global Training Programs   34:02 Fire and Fragrance School and Connections to IHOP   38:55 NAR and Global Christian Networks   44:00 Intercessory Prayer and Influence in Washington, DC   50:00 Leaving YWAM and Adjusting to Life Afterward   52:09 Advice to Those Still in YWAM   56:00 Closing Thoughts on YWAM's Global Impact   ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00You

00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast

00:36I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham historical research at William

00:42Branham org and with me I have my very special guest Pascal Chancy ex-missionary for YWAM

00:50Pascal it's good to have you on here. I think you are the first guest maybe that I've had from YWAM

00:56I've had a few people talking about it and a few people who are loosely connected

01:01But I think you're the first at least the first missionary for YWAM that we've had on show and really good to have you on

01:08I'm very curious to hear more about your story. So maybe if you could just tell everybody a little bit about yourself

01:15Well, it's an honor to be with you

01:19Yeah, so I'm Pascal Chancy. I am originally from Montreal from Quebec

01:25So I'm French Canadian

01:27And I mostly grew up in West Africa in Mali

01:34my dad

01:35had a stint in seminary and decided being a pastor was not the way to go and

01:41he decided to do microfinance work and

01:44Lead projects in agricultural development. So that is where I grew up mostly

01:51but my parents

01:54To the great shock of their family decided to become Christians

01:59and I grew up in a family where being Christian was

02:06Taught me that if you are French Canadian you are white and

02:11you

02:13identify as a Protestant or even an evangelical you are a minority and

02:18Even in the context of growing in a predominantly Muslim country same thing if you are Christian you are in a minority and

02:26I

02:30My the form of Christianity that was passed down to me

02:35was

02:36predominantly the NAR world

02:40because of familial connections

02:43and I I

02:48Became a missionary with YWAM, but the only reason to explain how I became a missionary at YWAM is

02:54Tracing back some of those early childhood

02:57Connections with the NAR world. I spent a lot of time in the south in the United States growing up

03:04And it was you're a minority if you weren't a Christian down on the south. It's changing a little bit now

03:10I think there's a lot of immigrants, but so it's interesting to hear that you weren't

03:16That you were the family connections brought you into the ministry. I'm curious to hear how the all of that came about

03:22the when we moved to my family moved to Mali we moved as

03:28Not missionaries every you know, a lot of the question is like you grew up in Africa weren't you missionaries?

03:33No, we were doing you know, we were expats. It was like what we call immigrant, you know

03:39White immigrants to other countries. We were expats and

03:43We attended an American International School, I have two younger sisters so that's you know

03:49Growing from not speaking in English to speaking fluently in two years that this American International School

03:55very diverse ecosystem people from all over the world and

04:00Really? I took it for granted that that was my norm. Like I have friends who are you know

04:06Muslim or unchurched

04:09Who are from all around the world and I took that for granted

04:15It's not until I moved to the United States in 2015 that I was like, oh this is not normal

04:23But uh because we were introduced to

04:26English it opened up a world that was

04:31vastly more Christian I would say and a different kind of Christianity that

04:36I had grown up with my we know my formative years are going to

04:42Presbyterian churches

04:44Multicultural very respectful of the

04:50Secular

04:51Civic almost like Quebec has a is very protective of its

04:57separation of church and state and it's very

05:00Secular and it really protects it and it's almost like if you're a Christian, but you practice kind of that

05:06Respect that tolerance for others. It's very much. It's a it's a liberal country that

05:13from the 1960s onward

05:16definitely democratized that you know rapidly

05:20Socialized I know as the u.s. Was experiencing a backlash

05:24From conservatives over civil rights the expansion of civil rights in Quebec. It was going the opposite

05:30it's like the expansion for everybody and so my parents even though they were Christians and

05:35You know charismatics to boot. They were not reactionaries. And so those values, you know took up with us when we were exposed to this

05:44English Christian world American Christian world

05:48Really we were that's where I we began to make connections

05:53between the kinds of

05:56guest speakers that would come to our churches and what the teachings they would bring and

06:02it was

06:03We wouldn't have I think I don't think it's I had not been exposed to

06:08An English education. I would have had the same

06:12Foundations in this neo charismatic world

06:16Gotcha and

06:18For the listeners who are unfamiliar when I throw the phrase out why wham I I'm certain that there are many listeners

06:25Who have no idea what it was?

06:28Is can you describe? What is why wham?

06:31Well, my introduction to youth with mission was through family friends

06:37my parents

06:39in Mali became friends with

06:41I would call them the regional directors of this very

06:47Decentralized deregulated mission organization

06:52and for me what they were just

06:57Down-to-earth

06:59Missionaries doing a really good job connecting different churches together

07:03You know, their whole thing was unity in the body of Christ through worship and it's an acronym, right?

07:08And it's an acronym right why wham is youth with a mission, right?

07:12Yes youth with a mission founded in 1960 by Lauren Cunningham

07:18an American

07:21Evangelist who you would say

07:23Originally associated with the assemblies of God

07:27And he was a young college student who went to the Bahamas with a gospel cornet called the liberators

07:35And doing yeah where he was told by local communities that yeah young people have wrecked havoc in a community dating

07:45local girls and

07:47Lauren is so distraught about it. He says that is you know, these men young men were culturally insensitive

07:53But they had a great point

07:55Young people are not attached to any institutions. They don't have any commitments back home. What a great idea

08:02To do evangelism and on the night before

08:07Well praying before I guess, you know a sermon that he was supposed to preach

08:14He had a vision and in the vision. He says that the he saw on the white wall a map moving and

08:22there was it was very dynamic and there were waves crashing over continents and

08:26You know the waves kept receding and it coming back even further in and he said as I look those waves

08:33transformed from just being water to being young people and they were people like me and he was 21 years old at the time and

08:41But they were even younger and they were going to all over the world preaching

08:45The gospel going to into the streets the bars and even home to home

08:49And they were preaching the gospel and they were preaching the gospel

08:53Going to into the streets the bars and even home to home and sharing the love of Jesus and

09:00he felt like God had downloaded to him almost a

09:05vision of a way to transform missions back then even in the assemblies of God you had to be

09:12handsome and under the hierarchy of authority you had to have be be trained and

09:18You had to fundraise in a specific way like be sent out and he felt like it was limiting

09:25The spread of the gospel and even the young people's ability to do missions

09:31So that's how it's I mean, that's the vision but we I think the story of

09:37How he you know, he says this came from God is because he had a formative background

09:44In the assemblies of God with parents who were itinerant preachers who had taught him how to like discern the voice of God in

09:51everything from

09:53you know

09:54Finances to where the ministries headed

09:57there were a lot of ministries that had youth programs Billy Graham had I think was called youth for Christ and

10:04There are a lot of copycats that were created. I think Jim Jones even even had some sort of a youth program

10:10Jones actually began his ministry as a youth minister

10:14So it paints these these weird pictures. Some of them are good. Some of them are not so good

10:19Youth with a mission why wham? What if you could guess what was their target age for the the children that were in it?

10:29Well, this is I will answer in two parts one is

10:36Young people outside of like that come out of

10:39High school basically, so 18 to 25 year olds really

10:46Which is of sometimes a time for kids who are looking what to do. They're very passionate. I remember myself

10:53over 15 years ago being very like

10:56Having lots of energy being wanting to belong to something bigger than yourself

11:01And I think they tap into that desire that teenagers have of having some sort of impact

11:08but

11:09Early on youth with a mission also saw the need to target even younger people

11:16And with children ministries preschool education and like kids camps

11:24which is where with the people in Mali, that's how I got interested in doing youth with a mission is because I

11:33I

11:35Wanted to work with children

11:37Actually, I had been told prophesied in

11:41African instituted Pentecostal churches that I would become a missionary and work with children

11:45So I knew of all of the programs that I'm offered in that area. I was like, oh, that's for me

11:54Yeah, that's you know and not everybody who are in these youth programs even the youth programs not all of them are bad

12:01The

12:02The cult that we escaped they had a youth program and they've got a camp here locally. I call it a children's indoctrination camp

12:09But the people who run the camp the people who are just rank-and-file members in the cult

12:16They have no idea that they're indoctrinating children. They're doing a good thing. So they you know, they feel like it's good

12:21with the YWAM programs

12:24Once you were in it and you were working with the children

12:28I'm certain that you felt you were doing a good thing after you realize what why YWAM was

12:34would you reflect on your years doing this as

12:39Helping the children truly helping them or was it indoctrination and helping them? Oh the latter both

12:45I would say yes, but I mean that's

12:52You know

12:53If we go even further into the kind of things that we were teaching the children

13:00I

13:02think we could connect the dots with a lot more of the foundational teachings that are you know,

13:09Key to the NAR world and I think some of them messed me up personally, but I know

13:16If you teach them at a you know, four-year-old

13:19My child is four-year-old if I teach it, you know when I was teaching a four-year-old

13:23How to be a joyful obedient servant of God how to listen to be attentive to God's voice

13:31That developed a kind of hyper vigilance that

13:34can mess up a child's

13:37Inner sense of like what is true? What's real and even their ability to

13:45I don't know be critical thinkers as you always like to talk about and

13:49Yeah, I it also messes up the nervous system you just yeah always like always on edge

13:55Yeah, I'm always looking at the critical side. I know there's there's two sides of things

13:59but I usually focus on the critical because

14:02It's exploring what we weren't allowed to whenever I was in it

14:05But yeah, they it seems to me that a lot of the programs like this they

14:11And in the NR and AR in general

14:14And in the NR and AR in general they're targeting the youth because if they can get them to

14:20disable critical thinking

14:22before the age when critical thinking hits them the hardest they can stay in it and

14:29You know, we I grew up I was

14:31Yeah, I grew up. It was totally different than the NAR but there's so many similarities. We one of the doctrines we had was

14:39The

14:40and it's so wrong, I feel stupid saying this but we had this doctrine that

14:45We we were taught that the shepherd liked to break the sheep so that the sheep didn't get out of the fold

14:51Break the legs of the sheep

14:53And i've heard that. Yeah, we were told this is a good thing, right?

14:56Well, no shepherd's gonna do this man. You can kill a sheep like this

15:00It's not that's not what a shepherd does a shepherd tends to the flock doesn't

15:04Injure and maim

15:06Mame the sheep, but we were taught this but what that does to the psyche of a child is

15:11It makes them they don't want their leg broken

15:14They they don't want to step out of line because their leg might get broken, right?

15:18So i'm assuming you had something very similar in ywam. I mean, I I wasn't well before ywam too

15:25I was an eager to please child. Um, who's one of my parents?

15:30um

15:32I would say was almost addicted to the spiritual highs that uh, they would find in

15:37Religious conferences and in the church of their uh sister

15:42um, and that sister my aunt, uh was involved in a church in suburb of montreal that

15:49Is connected to bill hammond's christian international network

15:54And also a different network, uh in canada called watchmen for the nations

15:59Um, and it's you know

16:02uh

16:03I just listened to your episode today. Uh

16:07with charles on deliverance and healings and I was that brought me back to some of the

16:12Extended church. I mean church could go on for four hours in those settings

16:17um where you know

16:19God's bringing healing to the congregation

16:22This is a small mom and pop church that is has never grown since the 1990s when it was founded

16:29um

16:30And from its inception

16:31It's just been a handful of families who had people bite at it having more children and intermarrying really it's just really weird

16:38but um, they

16:40they had the kind of dynamic worship that my parent really looked for

16:46and the teachings that

16:48Were not just here's a you know, three ways to better your family. It was more like how to um,

16:55you know have grow your relationship with god how to

17:00And here i'm going to bring in some

17:02connections to the latter rain, but like how to walk in your own desk like

17:07manifest god's presence here on earth how to be a kingdom how to

17:12Um, I would say the manifest destiny of god like manifest god of sons of god. Yeah, basically

17:18Of like if you are not aligning yourself with a positional authority, I guess god's authority

17:25as

17:26God's child then you are not truly representing god on earth. You're missing out on the best and

17:34um, god wants you to walk in a room like a king and a queen

17:39And the and have such authority and such, you know

17:43Understanding of who you are that you can ask for anything and it will be granted to you

17:48so, um, there were members of that church who had crazy testimonies of

17:53uh

17:54asking for favors with local authorities for stages for their

18:00you know ministries and

18:02being granted or getting jobs with that were beyond their like what they were

18:09You know trained for or what they could do

18:13and getting it and it's just like these people really did think that um

18:18Once you understood who you are in christ that anything was open for you

18:24Yeah, charles and I had a lot of fun doing the deliverance ministers

18:28Looking through the deliverance ministers training manual, you know

18:33Growing up in a family where my it was my grandfather was that was the pastor

18:37But i've spoken with many people who've escaped and some of them who've de-churched

18:43who

18:44their parents were parent was a pastor and um

18:48you get a different perspective because

18:50Whenever it's brought before the people as some spiritual event

18:55There's usually a cause and effect and the way that the minister brings it to the pulpit

19:01Is they'll tell you the effect but they hold withhold the cause

19:05And the children of the pastor or the grandchildren often know the cause that brought the result, right?

19:12But to the people this is whoa. This is spiritual

19:14this is god is moving among us and you don't you know, i'm not saying that god never moves among the people, but

19:23sometimes if you

19:25If you do something that you're expecting a result

19:27It's very easy to claim some supernatural thing and even prophecy if you know that you cause something that will

19:35Produce a result. Yeah, I would say that church. Well that church had a um

19:42produced its own original music, uh

19:44But I to go alongside that they developed a dance ministry

19:49And so a dance team that was trained

19:51As rigorously as a professional dance troupe and they traveled all over the world

19:57Uh with the especially watchmen for the nations that network leading conferences and worship

20:03But whenever they would train and I had friends, you know over the summer built relationships people my age were part of the dance group

20:11Who would say hey after you know, we hang out I gotta go

20:14uh

20:16train

20:16And they would go and they would be like one hour two hours like on the you know exercising on the dance floor

20:22But following that there was always ministry time

20:27where um

20:29somebody sometimes it was the head pastor and she's

20:32Quite something the quite the order and quite she knows how to get the results. She wants

20:38or sometimes it was another member of the church and what they would do is, uh, you know,

20:45Either group therapy is what I call it

20:48Or they would where they just confess everything in front of you and it's like trauma bonding

20:53uh, or they would um

20:57Um, they would do some like meditative exercises and like soak in the spirit and whatever

21:04Happened out of those things

21:06the main the head teacher

21:08pastor

21:10Uh would then on sunday

21:12say to the ask the congregation if they wanted the same kind of

21:15Uh growth healing whatever blessing god brought to the dance team and that's basically what church was like

21:22It's like whatever happened in the dance team

21:24which

21:25you know

21:26Was a lot of deliverance and healing ministries stuff like that. Well, that's what had the church experienced on sunday

21:35So it was like the pre-planning of of the ministry

21:38Basically and I i've thought about it you talked about you know, the power of fasting or the power of

21:46worship to

21:47control minds

21:49but I have to say when you're like spent because you

21:54Worked so hot like worked out your body physically so much

21:57You are vulnerable and I think my friends were vulnerable to spiritual manipulation

22:02i've studied the works of many different cult experts and

22:07Whenever

22:08Whenever a cult can take a person and drive them into exhaustion

22:12It drives them into a mental state where they the mind goes into survival mode

22:18Much like the fasting whenever you fast over a period of time there comes a point in which your body goes into survival mode

22:25and when it does

22:27There's this

22:28In your psyche you become like you're looking for a parent child type relationship

22:33Because the the mother the father they nurture the children

22:37And so if the if the spiritual leader can step in as this mother figure a father figure

22:43then

22:44Your body will automatically recognize this and connect to it and they can wreak havoc with your heads once they get into that state. So

22:52There are many different

22:53I think the last one I read it might have been combating cult mind control, but I think the last one I read

23:00was talking about how they would

23:01Deprive the members of sleep because they would do the chanting and the exercise and sometimes late at night

23:07They would go until all hours of the night to just literally exhaust the people

23:13Yeah, I mean, that's what I I was familiar with that even in um, the kind of pentecostal churches. We used to go in mali

23:21um

23:22meetings all night prayer meetings were a common thing and uh, I I actually

23:29Acknowledge now that

23:32Um, I was exhausted

23:35physically

23:36when I

23:38um

23:39joined yom

23:41I physically mentally

23:44Um in a weird period of transition in my life leaving high school. Um was a bubble in itself. I

23:50funny enough went to a

23:53prestigious

23:55boarding school in massachusetts a late like, um liberal arts school, um, because

24:02I

24:03when I hit 15 in

24:04The school that I was in in mali there were no more friends and it felt like academically I was stunted

24:10So my dad's company provided for a really great education

24:15um that should have safeguarded me from the kind of experience like

24:21in

24:21entering cults afterward

24:23Um, and it kind of did it was it provided a ballast but I was still so determined to join yom that

24:29When I was 18 years old, I was like all my friends I headed to ivy league school and I am

24:34going to hawaii

24:36And to become a missionary

24:39wow

24:39and

24:41You know, they were

24:43What did your parents say when you told them that?

24:46Uh, let's say it caused a friction with my my father who really wanted me to go to school and I you know

24:52nowadays he was wise in that decision, but they were um, not the wiser because

24:59of

25:00their friendship with the regional directors of yom and mali and yom produced great music, um, that was so

25:09Valuable to a lot of francophone churches

25:11and I mean we grew up with the recordings all that it was just like

25:15Of course go go do that. I mean you've always wanted to since you were 12 years old

25:19um, get it out of your system kind of a thing

25:22and um, so yeah, but I was um, I was

25:26At a place in my life where I was not healthy physically and so I was prime when I joined

25:32Why am I their entry school?

25:34They call it the because obviously you don't just become a missionary. You have to have some sort of training

25:41And everybody who wants to join youth with mission has to go through what they call the discipleship training school

25:48Which is a six month old six month formation

25:51Uh, I guess it's like three months of lecture phases where you get once every week a different topic brought by a different speaker

26:00and then followed by

26:02three months of

26:04Outreach what they call it. So you do evangelism

26:07um

26:08and uh when I

26:11Joined to do my discipleship training school. I was already

26:15vulnerable to being indoctrinated

26:18The groups that descended from the latter rain movement they learned by example if the people are weak

26:25in

26:26Any way, you know whether it's mentally or physically

26:29They're more susceptible to joining a cult and they don't critically think because they're in that state where they're looking for something

26:37And if their focus is on natural physical healing or just to better themselves, they're more susceptible to joining the cult

26:44So that that's very common among the groups

26:47so

26:48you left the you left the prestigious college life to go to hawaii to become a missionary and

26:54um

26:55What was that like? I I've heard of missionaries going overseas, but i've never really heard of any going to hawaii

27:02well, so in the story of ywam ywam, uh in the first 10 years of you know from 1960 to 1970

27:09Uh, lauren was just taking teams of anybody who you know, he was recruiting people. Actually. This is interesting. I found a

27:18Advertisement

27:19for you know, you I know on your website you bought a bunch of like advertisement or in the early days of ywm lauren's like

27:25Anybody trying to recruit anyone? Well in the angelus, uh magazine

27:31I think it's a 1959 edition. There is uh, like

27:36I guess

27:37an advertisement in there for

27:40a

27:41Meeting where lauren was going to be the speaker and his thing was going to be like

27:45Recruiting people for missions so speaking but also like trying to get people afterwards to like sign me up to go and do your thing

27:52And then actually in the same page

27:55There's a william brannan and david tuplisi. I don't know how to say his name like

28:00Like meeting advertisement as well. So this is wow. That was interesting. Yeah, that is interesting

28:06I think I should send you a link. This is fun. Yeah. Yeah

28:10but uh

28:12Yeah for the first 10 years it was like ha like kind of random and then in um

28:17Slowly as he was gaining more people who were interested. Um

28:22he

28:24Decided that there was he needed they needed more formal training. Um

28:29and

28:30He thought that god gave him a vision of a school in switzerland

28:35um

28:37And uh that was confirmed

28:39By different people confirmed they all like said. Oh, yeah. God told me, you know go and do start the school

28:45Um, and the biggest one was a man. I think his name is willard cantillon

28:50um, he was a canadian evangelist, um who kind of ran at the same time as william brannan have

28:56similar, you know connections

28:59um

29:00And uh who told him yeah god get to said you need to go to switzerland start a school over there to train missionaries

29:08And here I will give you an address

29:10And a phone number of a person

29:13Who you can connect with?

29:14And so him lauren cunningham and his wife dorelene. Who's the co-founder of yom? They took a one-way

29:21trip to uh, switzerland

29:23Started the school there. Um, and then over the years

29:27I mean it grew and they just kind of passed off the school to someone else and then they went to hawaii

29:32Uh lauren had already been to hawaii before to do evangelism

29:35And uh, they just felt led by god, you know to go there. Um

29:41and uh, I think

29:44Uh sometime

29:46In the mid to late 70s. They bought a hotel

29:50Um that they remodeled and it became what is now, um, the university of the nations

29:57First it was called the pacific asia university or something like that. And then they

30:02Renamed it. Uh, they brought a man from

30:07um

30:08a university in chicago, and I can't remember if it was which name of it, but he was a um

30:15His area of studies was like chemistry or something

30:20Howard mom's dad and they asked him to create design

30:24a

30:25Kind of a global university that would train missionaries in modular format

30:31um

30:32and so

30:33Basically, that's where I went to um, it's a huge campus at the time in 2010

30:39There were almost a thousand people on campus

30:42um

30:44and uh

30:45I

30:46You know, there were they had many discipleship training schools. Um, but somehow I had been told that I should do one in particular

30:54um, which

30:56Uh is called fire and fragrance and at the time it was kind of a brand new program

31:01that uh was led by its founders then, uh, andy bird and

31:05Her name is amy ward. I think she was named

31:08amy solars before she got married

31:11and it was

31:13Kind of like ihop. Let's just say hi. How casey. Wow. Um

31:18Yes, very much. Um, it is because of the leaders andy bird and amy solars, uh

31:24Connections to ministries like ihop bethel school of supernatural ministries and morning stars

31:30It was ran very much like the love child of ihop casey and bethel

31:34Have you ever wondered how the pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern pentecostalism?

31:40transitioned through the latter reign

31:43charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation

31:47You can learn this and more on william brannom historical research's website

31:52William-brannom.org

31:55On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of john collins charles paisley steven

32:01Montgomery john mckinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book

32:09You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements

32:15If you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top

32:22And as always be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching

32:28On behalf of william brannom historical research. We want to thank you for your support

32:33They see one structure like this that's working and generating a lot of revenue

32:37Well, let's copy that and let's do it elsewhere

32:40And I have to say if you have somewhere to pick to do it hawaii is not a bad place

32:46No, and I had not originally wanted to do it in hawaii

32:49Um, I even asked the our friends in mali. I was like, hey, I know you ran but you have schools here in mali

32:55Why can't I do it there? And I thought about doing one in costa rica because I had friends in costa rica

33:01and um

33:02And it all fell through and everyone that I kept asking was like no this one in hawaii

33:08so

33:10I landed there

33:11and um, it was

33:14Um, it was intense

33:16Let's just say but it was familiar at the same time the similar

33:21uh kinetic

33:23expressive worship

33:25um

33:26emphasis on prayer as the catalyst for missions that i'd heard of

33:32My whole life

33:34um

33:35But it really had the similar. Um

33:38teachings as was

33:40Being taught in high hop casey. I think the reason why fire and fragrance really started was

33:46Um, there was a revival at ihop in 2008

33:50I think 2008 2009 the student

33:53revival

33:54And I think it had such a trickle-down effect

33:58In the charismatic world that you know at some point

34:01There were people who were like we need to do a similar thing. We need to have a prayer room

34:05on the campus here in kona, hawaii

34:08and uh, we need to

34:11You know be praying for the great next

34:14Awakening that you know said and people need to be so like

34:19Uh emotionally prepared for that

34:22And willing to like commit their whole lives to living missionally into like the most spiritually dark places on earth

34:29um, and we're gonna do it we're gonna do it in a prayer room where it's just like

34:33constantly bombarded with

34:36either it's like

34:38uh, so

34:39like serene

34:41that you want to fall asleep and then like you are having weird visions and dreams and

34:47I mean, it's just you're primed for manipulation

34:49or you're like hearing these messages that are like of warfare of like unique like the

34:55faith of nations depends on

34:58You praying for them

35:00And like binding up spirits and all sorts of things like that. Basically what you're describing is brainwashing and i've seen several

35:08stuff with sci-fi movies where they do the same thing with children, which is

35:12Sad and scary all at the same time, but you know, that's really for me. That's one of the most

35:17Horrific things about the nar it's not so much that the churches

35:23The churches are bad. Don't get me wrong, but it's not that the churches themselves

35:26Have enough pool to make it such a mess, but the nar network

35:31you create an ihop and then it's networked with all these other churches and these other movements and then they pick up the ideas and

35:37Oh, well it works if they're brainwashing people here, let's brainwash people in this other place too and maybe we can make money

35:43and

35:44You know the bottom line it's always about money and it's always about control and unfortunately, it's often about sex as well

35:51but

35:52the way these networks allow each other to spread ideas

35:56Is the most destructive thing because what it's essentially doing is rewriting the dna of christianity

36:03I agree and I

36:04for the longest time I

36:07know since

36:08all over the last decade i've been questioning like where how we have arrived in this milieu now like this

36:16like the merging of politics with you know, the

36:20charismatic world all of that and I and I really I

36:24i've always said

36:26That it's because of the relationships and it's all those worlds is all networks. I mean, that's the best way to describe it

36:32it's just nebulous networks of relationship and

36:36Association is currency in that world

36:39Um who you know who you promote? I mean, that's how they get their gigs

36:44um

36:45Andy, uh bird has spoken multiple times that I hop

36:50Um, I mean

36:52Very good friends with mike mike pickle

36:54Um, you know one in preparation for our outreach. Um,

36:59I'll talk to you about the outreach in a bit because I think it's interesting

37:02um, we

37:04Uh studied mike pickles, um the way that he breaks up

37:08uh a day in like 15 minute chunks and we're like this is

37:11Like here's how we're gonna break up our day into 15 minute chunks to be very productive

37:17and um

37:19Not just productive but also like accountable to the lord

37:23so

37:24Yeah, it's but he I mean eddie is connected to so many different worlds. I mean he's part of now like empire 21

37:31Which is a nar network of leaders with cindy jacobs on it. Um,

37:36um and but there are

37:39There's a lot more of leaders. It's like it's so global now that um, I even heard frank like leaders from like the french

37:46Speaking world. Um, there's a guy michel. Guadalupo is like a famous

37:51West african pastor in that world. Um, there's a guy jean luc trachel who's a swiss. Um

37:58Mega church pastor, uh with a healing ministry and they're all like connected and they're all promoting each other's work. Um,

38:06Andy bird has worked really closely with francis chan with uh, sean foyd with lou ankle

38:13Um, and now his biggest project now is like the scent

38:17Um, and it is um, it's global. I mean sen has gone started in orlando a few years ago and has now gone to brazil

38:25Um, it's going to be in new zealand the philippines

38:28um argentina

38:30um the uk and it's really the idea is to

38:34um, take lauren's idea of young people going to missions and it's just like

38:39even like less regulated less

38:43Like don't even come to ywam just go out like in your own community. It's like um

38:48They're just bringing people in these stadiums and they pump them with worship and these messages about

38:55Committing one's life to them for a mission

38:57uh seeing the like generation transformed, I mean you're really targeting gen z now with very

39:03uh cutting edge technologies

39:06and um

39:07yeah, the idea is that

39:10Um, you are bringing they're bringing god's kingdom on earth or yeah

39:15Taking dominion over all spheres of

39:18life, basically

39:19Yeah, it's all those connections really that is the power behind this thing

39:24And people I I don't know if you see in the comments, but people often comment you can't do this

39:29This is guilt by association just because this one man is falling into

39:33Error, and he's working with this other man. You can't link the two

39:38But in the nar it's different. That's that's actually how this works because they're connected and because they're

39:44I don't know what you call. They're cross pollinating. They're cross pollinating each other's congregations

39:49And so this thing just kind of builds up as this big empire that's all interconnected

39:55But you talked about outreach. Um, tell us a little bit more about about the outreach programs

40:01so following uh 12 week of lectures, uh in hawaii

40:06Um, I then joined a group of I think we were 12 of us. Uh, we went to um east coast of the u.s

40:12um, the idea was that we were going to be

40:16Uh connecting with houses of prayers and campus ministries to kind of pave the way for a potential

40:22um, y-o-m base in harrisburg, pennsylvania

40:25um that

40:27Launching another fine fragrance school basically there

40:30um, but to do that you have to have kind of the network of teachers and

40:35Recruiting that would lead to that

40:38um

40:39and so that is what we did we did we went to yale university, um asking god to

40:45Send out launch out the next wave of student volunteer movement

40:48Which to me was I mean I had grown up fascinated by it and went to a boarding school where that was where?

40:55It was started. Basically. I went to d.l moody's

40:58um northfield mount herman school, so I was like

41:01This is so exciting. I'm part of history. I mean, that's how they they teach you

41:06They're like you're you're part of like something bigger than you like you're you know, you're creating history making history this way

41:13um, but we eventually made our way down through pennsylvania

41:18and landed in dc and

41:20We stayed in dc for a whole month and I have no recollection of us doing any sort of evangelism any working with churches

41:28And but the only thing we did was prayer ministry

41:31We stayed in like a million dollar house on third street southeast

41:35I think that's like right kitty corner to where c street is that house. Um right behind

41:41Yes, it is. Uh, I the house was there for traveling teams of intercessors, I think

41:48And that's significant for the people who aren't aware what c street is. I'll let you tell it. Oh, yeah. Yeah c street is uh, the

41:5612 story 12 like room

41:59Uh built like uh, I don't know you can erase that part it's like the i'll i'll start it again

42:06I was like, um, yeah c street is uh the house that is um belongs to the family

42:14which is a

42:15very controversial

42:18uh group that fellow brings in uh politicians and staffers

42:24for uh bible studies

42:26Um, but was really in the limelight with like, um, um a documentary about it and then some scandals

42:33Yes

42:34And recently somebody just somebody just sent me in via email

42:38I've got some cia documents where the cia is also connected to the family. So it's it's getting pretty deep

42:45Yes, and yom apparently used to own that building. I don't know that story yet

42:50I have to I i'm so curious i'm gonna have to go look and dig into this one. Yeah, I saw that

42:55It's uh one of the news articles mentioned that it's it's crazy stuff because you get people

43:01they're bringing people and it's under the auspices of this christian thing, but

43:05people that

43:06you don't associate with christianity are coming in here and they're mingling with with each other and

43:12You know, you can't you can't just really point a finger on it without solid evidence

43:17but when you see somebody like

43:19I don't know

43:20michael jackson coming in with these guys and

43:23Yes, it's okay. He's the king of pop but then the next person they bring is hillary clinton and

43:29Hillary clinton gets involved with this thing. And what are they talking about? You know, she's not

43:34At least I don't picture her as being very interested in nar religion

43:39No, I mean and a lot of the politicians who've uh, you know, I I um

43:45Who've been involved or you know, not as famous as she is

43:49Um, but you know, they still have a oversized influence on capitol hill

43:55Um, our host was uh a man by the name of jason. I'm gonna name him. His name was jason hershey

44:00and he's the founder of um

44:02Dc, uh david stent dc. I think david stent was a prayer worship movement that came out of the uk

44:10um

44:11But he also started ymdc

44:13and a guy

44:15um was connected with another

44:18Man, um on capitol hill named dick simmons

44:22um dick simmons who um

44:25man for

44:26All nations. I I can't remember exactly the name of the ministry. I will have to i'll send you the link but it's

44:32Um, his goal was to get men to pray every morning

44:36um for the nation lest god, uh judge the u.s for like the sins of abortion the the great like

44:44No, like family values not being a thing anymore and I don't know on and on and on so dick simmons is a very

44:51well-connected intercessor

44:53um who has a

44:55um an apartment or had a

44:58an apartment building, uh right behind the supreme court

45:02And um, it there's a prayer room there that we would do ministry in

45:06So jason there she would bring us in that building

45:09Made it with dick simmons and then we would um pray for the revival of america

45:16um

45:17and um

45:18Jason her she would also take us on tours of all the monuments and then we would do prayer walks and spiritual warfare

45:26and I think one of

45:27The things that stood up to me for that time was we went to an event that was led by lou angle

45:32But I don't think it was the call

45:34Because i've looked up and there was no the call on the washington mall that year

45:39um

45:40But it was similar. I mean, I think michelle bachman spoke

45:44Um, i'm pretty sure sean foyd was there before he became infamous

45:49And um, but the whole thing that stood out to me is like all of my peers here who are american

45:55Really do believe that if they don't pray

45:58This country is going to hell in the hand basket

46:01And as a canadian, it was just felt very strange even if like I was like I was like the outsider i'm like they're so

46:07this is like I was starting to seeing the marriage of you know,

46:11conservative a specific type of

46:14Conservative politics with religion that I was not used to priorly. Yeah

46:20And to be clear it's and to be clear

46:23It's not bad really to pray and what they're what they're saying is fine

46:27You know, I have no problem with that the problem is that they're influencing

46:32very powerful people outside of the public vote and

46:36In doing so maybe they're influencing them good. I don't know. I can't say that they're not

46:41But we have no control over it because we're not voting and that's the real problem here. That's not something that should be happening. Yeah

46:48No

46:49Well, it's yeah

46:51but it's the kind of theology and the ideology of

46:55uh gaining dominion

46:57not through um democratic ways, but it's you know, nar has been described I think I wrote it down because this was

47:05I I thought it was really good

47:08Um, it's somebody from the southern poverty law center described

47:13um, yeah, then you know nar being it's not a political christian movement, it's more like

47:19authoritarian

47:20anti-democratic movement within religion

47:24and it's like

47:25Because of the way that they perceive the world so many in such a manichaean way where it's like light versus dark

47:32evil like satan's realm

47:35Um when you got to push it back, you know

47:37as people of prayer

47:39um, it's like anything that does not agree with their policies and

47:44uh, their favorite politicians is demonized and even I could see it back then in 2010. It's like

47:52the

47:53it was beginning to form and um, but I

47:57Like I said, I was I was impressionable. I was young and willing to do everything even stand in front of the supreme court with a

48:05piece of tape over my mouth that stood live

48:08Wow

48:09So you were you were fully bought into this. How in the world did you escape it?

48:14Uh slowly, um, I was so after

48:18Doing the discipleship training course, um, even though I wanted to join the pioneering of the wyom harrisburg base

48:24I was unwell physically and I need to go home. So

48:28for about a year, I just kind of

48:31regained my strengths

48:34Deep like sort of deprogram myself a bit even though I really still wanted to being part of ywam. Um,

48:41when I rejoined I it was more through the um,

48:45Becoming a preschool teacher so they have a whole arm of training

48:49um educators

48:51and I went to switzerland to the original base in lausanne in switzerland and

48:57Did my training there mostly I went back to hawaii for a bit worked at a preschool there under lauren cunningham's daughter

49:04Karen cunningham who was my supervisor

49:07and um

49:08but then mostly was a

49:10Either a preschool teacher with a preschool associated with the wyom base or I was on staff

49:16mostly helping out with operations

49:19um

49:20there and um, it was

49:23I love the lausanne base. It was a really good community. It was smaller less than 100 people very multicultural

49:30but there were still some red flags as I look back over the years some of the stuff that was

49:34Taught to us a heavy emphasis on

49:37um

49:39worldview on

49:42Demonizing, uh, the impact of the enlightenment and um humanism, especially in europe

49:51um and

49:53in the world of education as we

49:55colleagues and I were trying to

49:59Encourage people to develop christian schools. There was a lot of

50:03Imported ideas about homeschooling

50:06Christian school from the u.s. So a lot of the reasons for christian schooling were being imported into europe

50:13and um

50:15the short story is um things that not

50:19Work out well for that preschool financially and also laws changed in switzerland where four-year-olds now had to go to

50:27um

50:29preschool basically state-sponsored preschools

50:33and so

50:34um, we shut down and at the same time I met my current partner

50:38Um who was already a staff member with a different environment base in montana

50:43and so

50:44I moved to montana in 2015

50:47um

50:48And it was a different experience altogether. I moved

50:52From a community that I knew that knew me well to a place where I was a stranger

50:57um

50:58And I just mostly worked

51:01Doing operations work running a hospitality ministry. So guest house for people coming to visit

51:07And we both grew disillusioned but kind of the promises that had we had brought us into ywam

51:14You know by then we were 25 27. It just all fell apart

51:19um, I wasn't able to get my full degree with the university of nations, which is the

51:25Their unaccredited agency of like training

51:28ywamers globally

51:31And uh, I was like I need to get a proper education

51:35and I

51:37We left when we got married. We didn't have any money

51:42We could barely afford rent for a studio

51:46and so

51:48Yeah, we both uh got jobs. I got a job at a local assemblies of god church

51:53So we were already members of

51:55and my husband

51:58Work doing some av

52:00stuff

52:01Wow, that must have been a very difficult journey

52:04If you could give advice to people who are still in ywam, what advice would you give them?

52:10Oh my gosh, that is a very good question. Um, what I would

52:16I would say for those who are still in

52:19To

52:22You know, we're trained to be discerning

52:26with all these

52:29I guess techniques and sciences

52:32Of how like intercession and how to hear god's voice. Um

52:38for one's own life

52:40But I think the biggest thing is to not shut out

52:43outside voices

52:44Of those who are still who are not part of ywam ywam is a bubble

52:48And it because of that it insulates you

52:52um, and

52:56It's a it's a controlling environment

52:58that if you are not careful can

53:01Suck you in and steal a decade of your life like it did almost for me

53:06um, and your you know, youthful passionate energies are

53:11Could have been spent setting up your life for

53:15You know career or even like grounding yourself in one community and instead they're spent

53:21um to this mission organization that doesn't

53:24That says they care about you, but they really don't like once you're out you're out and they never you know, reach out again

53:30and it's like well

53:32What are you wanting for your whole life? It's like

53:35I think relationships are keys. Um relationships with family who is not part of ywam

53:41and um

53:43also

53:45Expanding your vision beyond the world of ywam and beyond the world of charismatic christianity

53:51um

53:52not

53:53exposing yourself to ideas that

53:55um, you might be wrong and that you need to change

54:00And a little bit of cognitive dissonance

54:04is capable of bringing some light in

54:08What can feel like a very stuffed

54:12stuffy environment

54:14Yeah, that's very good advice. You mentioned

54:18what happens after you leave and how they

54:21Disconnect from you. It was just yesterday. I was recording a podcast with a person that

54:27I asked them was it a cult and I can't remember how the conversation came to be but he said basically

54:33The easiest way to tell a cult is how they react when you leave them

54:37If they react

54:39You know, they love you. They would welcome you back. They wish you well on your way

54:44they're probably a healthy group, but if they cut you off never to be heard from again and

54:49A lot of times they'll demonize you after you leave. That's it's usually a cult if they do that. So

54:55But anyway, i'm i'm very glad that you joined us to tell your story of ywam

55:00I i'm still so curious. There's so much more. I want to know especially

55:04Yeah

55:05When I found the c street thing and and then some of the other things that people have sent me about it

55:10I'm, you know, i'm sitting here scratching my head and i'm thinking

55:13you know, I

55:15I don't even know what to say this

55:16It looks like a religion on the surface, but some of the things that they're connected to is

55:21Very much not religious. So what what is this? How do you describe this thing? And i'm i'm curious

55:27I'm, i'm interested. I I to me it's the um

55:31The story of how the seven mountain mandate transformed it has its roots in yom

55:37Yes, but I mean even before I mean has you know

55:40The connections came through yom and now I have diverted back outside of it

55:45um, and it's so key to um

55:49I guess what we're seeing from

55:52Neo-charismatic world now with dominion theology, but it is now not just in the us, but it is global

55:58I mean look in

55:59Latin america south america

56:02and australia

56:03New zealand. I mean there is a lot of um, it is you know, what ideas have

56:11repercussions

56:12And I love this idea that I heard from someone else say bad theology kills

56:17And it does and not right. I mean it has an it has some

56:21Really harmful impact. Well, thank you so much

56:24I'm, so glad that you did this and i'm sure that the listeners are going to be

56:29Very eager to hear more. So now you've given me work because they're going to ask me. Please dig deeper into yom

56:35This is this is crazy crazy stuff. So yom is uh, so under reported understudied

56:43um, and

56:44Often when people bring it up, it's because it's so deregulated decentralized

56:48I mean, it's like in 180 countries and it's like over 18 000 staff members

56:53So it's like everyone says oh i've had a great experience in yom and but there are people who say no this I

57:00experience abuse I experience this was bad like

57:03So you hear a lot of things but as soon as you want to look into yom, it's hard to

57:08uh

57:08Bring it all into a cohesive whole because of the way that it was intentionally structured

57:15Or destructured which fascinates me all the more

57:18But

57:20Anyway, thank you for doing this

57:22If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web

57:25You can find us at william-branham.org

57:28For more about the dark side of the nar you can read weaponized religion from christian identity to the nar

57:36available on amazon kindle and soon audible

57:48So

58:18So

58:44You

Our Stories: Escape From YWAM - Pascale Chancey - Episode 198 Branham Research Podcast

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