Why We Left the Message - Episode 172 Branham Research
Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
John Collins and Charles Paisley discuss their personal experiences and reasons for leaving the Branham movement. They reveal the problematic focus on divine healing, which often overshadowed the core gospel message. The episode highlights how the misplaced emphasis on faith healing led to unnecessary suffering and even death among believers, who were often discouraged from seeking medical help.
Charles recounts how the faith healing beliefs particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic, resulted in widespread illness and fatalities within their church. They discuss the historical roots of these beliefs, tracing them back to figures like John Alexander Dowie and F.F. Bosworth, and emphasize how these doctrines continue to harm people today. The episode calls for a critical examination of these teachings and stresses the importance of understanding the true gospel.
Charles' Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Come-Out-Her-People-1930-1965/dp/B0CZRMM8WQ
00:00 Introduction
01:10 Personal Decision to Leave
04:00 Observations of Suffering and Death
06:30 Harmful Effects of Faith Healing Beliefs
08:00 Hobart Freeman and Faith Assembly
11:00 Personal Experience with Diabetes
15:00 Doctrines of Dual Atonement and Positive Confession
18:30 Misinterpretation of Scripture
20:00 Demotion of Jesus and Manifested Sons of God
25:00 The Reality of Positive Confession
28:00 Mental Health Issues in the Cult
32:00 Stories of Harmful Preaching
37:00 The Spread of Harmful Doctrines
45:00 COVID-19 and Its Impact on the Church
52:00 Final Thoughts on Faith Healing and the Importance of Medical Help
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
John Collins and Charles Paisley discuss their personal experiences and reasons for leaving the Branham movement. They reveal the problematic focus on divine healing, which often overshadowed the core gospel message. The episode highlights how the misplaced emphasis on faith healing led to unnecessary suffering and even death among believers, who were often discouraged from seeking medical help.
Charles recounts how the faith healing beliefs particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic, resulted in widespread illness and fatalities within their church. They discuss the historical roots of these beliefs, tracing them back to figures like John Alexander Dowie and F.F. Bosworth, and emphasize how these doctrines continue to harm people today. The episode calls for a critical examination of these teachings and stresses the importance of understanding the true gospel.
Charles' Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Come-Out-Her-People-1930-1965/dp/B0CZRMM8WQ
00:00 Introduction
01:10 Personal Decision to Leave
04:00 Observations of Suffering and Death
06:30 Harmful Effects of Faith Healing Beliefs
08:00 Hobart Freeman and Faith Assembly
11:00 Personal Experience with Diabetes
15:00 Doctrines of Dual Atonement and Positive Confession
18:30 Misinterpretation of Scripture
20:00 Demotion of Jesus and Manifested Sons of God
25:00 The Reality of Positive Confession
28:00 Mental Health Issues in the Cult
32:00 Stories of Harmful Preaching
37:00 The Spread of Harmful Doctrines
45:00 COVID-19 and Its Impact on the Church
52:00 Final Thoughts on Faith Healing and the Importance of Medical Help
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:00You
00:00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast. I'm your host John Collins
00:00:38The author and founder of William Branham historical research at William dash Branham org and with me
00:00:45I have my co-host
00:00:46researcher minister and friend Charles Paisley the founder of Christian gospel church org and the author of come out of her my
00:00:54people and
00:00:56Together we're examining the history and the intersections in history between William Branham and other key figures that either
00:01:03Influenced or were influenced by the post-world war two healing revivals
00:01:08Well Charles today. We have an episode that really strikes home for me
00:01:13This is really the heart of why I finally decided to leave the message cult of William Branham
00:01:20There were many things along the way, you know
00:01:23We've talked about across the span of our I don't know. It's a hundred episodes. I guess we've done together of
00:01:29The many various reasons why I left there wasn't just one reason
00:01:33But I will say that in making my final decision to bring my family out of it. This was
00:01:40The key that unlocked the door for our exit
00:01:44because as a divine healing cult I
00:01:48Came to realize after stepping back and just thinking about it that the focus on the gospel
00:01:57became second place to the focus on divine healing and
00:02:01I had not yet made the connection that William Branham and FF Bosworth and many of the others
00:02:07Kind of tied those two together in order to be saved
00:02:11You also had to believe in this healing thing and William Branham himself called it the gospel of divine healing
00:02:17And it said he said it just has the same power to save and I never caught things like that
00:02:24but I came to realize that if this were the case if this were the
00:02:30so-called gospel
00:02:32then there's a huge problem because
00:02:35It does not protect the people from death and that became very critical in my deciding to leave because number one
00:02:44We had focused on a false gospel number two, it was a gospel that was weak and powerless and
00:02:52You know as I'm going as I'm forming all of these thoughts in my head
00:02:55I began to just think back through all of the people that I knew
00:03:01Growing up and even even at the time of my exit
00:03:05there were so many people that just were sickly so many people that had died and
00:03:12The the real crux for me was we had a person in our family who struggled with I
00:03:21Think it was a 5% chance of living from cancer
00:03:24It was one of the most devastating cases of cancer that I have ever even read about even still today. It was awful
00:03:32and
00:03:33trying to go to the group and you know, we're desperate for healing for this person and
00:03:41Watching what the leadership did watching their response
00:03:45was
00:03:46it literally opened the door for me to leave because they
00:03:50Knew that when cancer is this bad
00:03:53The chances are very low and they wouldn't touch it like with a 10-foot pole. They they wanted to run and hide and
00:04:01you know rather than banding together in prayer and
00:04:04Now what having seen other churches
00:04:07Watching the community come together as a community of people to support the person who's really suffering in their family
00:04:14They wanted to just sweep it under the rug so that nobody found out that there was this level of
00:04:23Critical issues with their divine healing gospel, you know, there's so much there John and you were you're exactly right
00:04:30and I I find myself John and really in a lot of the same places that you are with what you're saying and
00:04:37It I think we have a lot in common in this aspect because over the years a lot of things had piled up
00:04:42for me in the last few years issues that I noticed here and there with the message, but I
00:04:47Have to say it was the divine healing beliefs
00:04:52in the message and the way that they those things played out during kovat that
00:05:00Really was the
00:05:02Ultimate thing like maybe you might say the straw that broke the camel's back
00:05:07you know as I watched a
00:05:09significant number of people in the message die as a result of their divine healing beliefs their faith healing beliefs that
00:05:17really also
00:05:19Woke me up and it actually made me leave the church. I left the church before I quit believe in the message. I left
00:05:27You know over all of the deaths
00:05:30And then a few months after that I then decided, you know, there was something wrong with the message itself
00:05:37and
00:05:39It is it is a really difficult challenging thing when you begin to encounter
00:05:46The reality of those beliefs and you know as as it happened in
00:05:51That situation as people were dying that we're not supposed to die that was healed and all those other stuff
00:05:57People were dying
00:05:59You know you and you start to wake up you begin to look back and realize oh my goodness
00:06:05There has been a string of this for four years for decades
00:06:08this has been going on all along and somehow the blinders are on that that you and you just can't see it while you're
00:06:14While you're in there and it's so deep
00:06:17But especially once you become, you know in leadership, maybe like me you're behind the scenes, you know everything going on
00:06:23You realize that you know that this is just not right. You know, something is not right here and
00:06:29You know, I think as we've expressed in other episodes, I mean we we definitely still believe God's a healer, you know
00:06:36there it's not denial of miracles or denial of these sort of things to
00:06:41talk this way, but
00:06:44There is something wrong with the beliefs of the message because it harms more people their faith healing beliefs
00:06:52Harm more people than they help
00:06:55I mean that that is just the reality of the situation more people are harmed by these beliefs than are helped and you know
00:07:02There's times I've been in there John
00:07:04I'm sure you could say the same that we have seen things that hey that maybe looks like that was a genuine miracle or that
00:07:10Looks like something that hey something, you know special happened here. I think we could both maybe have seen that from time to time
00:07:17But that's not the typical outcome that is the rare outcome and far more often than not
00:07:25People can end up dying as a result of these beliefs and you know, I think we'll talk about that a little bit today
00:07:33and I
00:07:35think I
00:07:37Think that those videos that you've done with Chino Ross over the past few few months
00:07:42I have really appreciated you doing those John Chino Ross talking about Herbert Freeman from Faith Assembly
00:07:48Those have been terrific videos, and I I hope you do a few more
00:07:53And maybe we can talk about that a little bit today as part of this episode
00:07:57Yeah, the the episodes I'm doing with Chino or eye
00:08:01Opening even for me as I'm talking to him
00:08:04I look at what happened with Hobart Freeman's cult and you know
00:08:09Anybody who has seen the outcome of that realized that it was a total disaster
00:08:14and it again it was built right on top of this William Branham divine healing message called and
00:08:21It it's one of the fruits of the message if you really want to look at it like that
00:08:26It's eye-opening because as we're talking
00:08:29I'm putting together all the pieces together of
00:08:32The all of the things that happened and I that I saw and witnessed in our cult
00:08:37That never really clicked as being
00:08:41you know critical information to that should wake up any person and make them leave and
00:08:47The focus is just so wrong. It warps the individual's mind and
00:08:52You know, there is a difference
00:08:55Hobart Freeman was far more extremist in his views
00:08:58They were not allowed any medication and if you talk to any person in the main sect of the message
00:09:04They'll say well he went off into error because we are allowed medication, but what they don't realize is
00:09:11The way in which the gospel this so-called gospel of divine healing is framed
00:09:17it makes you prefer the
00:09:19the divine healing gospel over the medication in other words
00:09:23You put your faith in faith and that faith takes priority over
00:09:29Medication and in some cases people try to go out on leaps of faith so they will deny themselves the medication
00:09:36And it's even still today. It's really hard for me. If I get a headache, I almost refuse to take Tylenol
00:09:42that's how it's so embedded in my head man, and
00:09:47Another this is somewhat embarrassing, but I'm gonna say it and set the record straight in our very last episode
00:09:54Charles that you and I did together where we're driving around the vehicle. I
00:09:59actually, I thought I had beat diabetes and I I did this very strict diet and
00:10:05According to I've got one of these little blood meters according to the blood meter every time that I checked it morning noon night
00:10:12Any time of the day I was well into the normal range
00:10:16but apparently my body was
00:10:18Dumping loads of sugar from my liver as I slept and so I had no idea
00:10:23That the level of sugar that was in my blood that it wasn't showing up on the meter
00:10:28so I thought I had beat it and
00:10:31Not long not long after we recorded that I went back to the doctor and see this is the difference. I
00:10:38Did not go on a leap of faith and put my faith in faith and healing
00:10:43Claiming that my faith in that faith would
00:10:46Make this secure. I kept going to the doctor and the blood tests were very clear
00:10:51I had I eventually did develop diabetes and
00:10:57Now I just take a little medication and it you know, it's all fine
00:11:01but I have watched people and I'm not going to mention any names as we go in this because I
00:11:07Have respect for the people that are suffering. They were blinded just like I was
00:11:13But there are prominent people in the cult that are related to me and everybody will know who I'm talking about
00:11:21Who have claimed healing ever since I can remember words and
00:11:27They are called upon to give their testimonies. Now. They're I
00:11:32Think the person even regards himself as a preacher now because he has this powerful testimony
00:11:38He grew up with the Branham family. He knows the Branham's and so therefore
00:11:43Anybody who knew the original Branham family they get almost prophet or Apostle status in this cult
00:11:49and
00:11:51Yet this person has suffered. I have watched them suffer so badly that they were in a coma
00:11:58I have watched time and time again where
00:12:03healing was claimed and
00:12:05There was a slight improvement. It may have been mental but then a
00:12:10Catastrophic, I mean
00:12:12devastating failure of healing
00:12:15Would knock the person on
00:12:17Knock them on their butt for weeks sometimes months and
00:12:22Yet they're giving their testimony about this thing in this divine healing cult about this divine healing gospel
00:12:28And it's the cycle that keeps continuing. The person is going to get sick. They're going to fall down
00:12:34they're going to be near death and then rise back up and go give a testimony of how wonderful that it is to be in
00:12:42this message of divine healing and
00:12:45All of the people that they live somewhat isolated now, so all of the people who hear this they think wow
00:12:51This is wonderful that you can ask God for healing and if you put faith in your faith
00:12:58You can be healed because here's a living example
00:13:02But this person is one of the most sickly
00:13:05near death individuals that I I can't even describe how long it's been like this and
00:13:11That's what this gospel is producing
00:13:14You know the the message continues to
00:13:17doctrines that
00:13:19originate in the late
00:13:221800s one is called the doctrine of dual atonement and the others called the doctrine of positive confession now in the message
00:13:31I think people have lost track of what these doctrines are called a really long time ago John as in the message
00:13:36You don't hear people say positive confession or dual atonement, right?
00:13:39But but that's that is what they believe
00:13:41I mean that is widely what they believe and I'll just describe them for you that way
00:13:46Yeah, you know that way the people who don't familiar with those terms know what they mean. Well, well dual atonement is the belief that
00:13:54The death of Christ atoned both for our sins and for our healing
00:13:59And it's rooted in a reading of a verse in the book of Isaiah where Isaiah writes
00:14:07that
00:14:08He was bruised for our iniquity, right?
00:14:10You know that verse and it goes on to say by his stripes were healed and so they take that by his stripes were healed
00:14:18to say that
00:14:20You know the whipping that Jesus endured before he went to the cross was to purchase
00:14:27bodily healing
00:14:29for people in addition to his death on the cross atoned for our sins and
00:14:34so they take that to
00:14:37More or less say that bodily healing is available
00:14:41from Christ, you know through faith and
00:14:46That by itself's maybe not so bad
00:14:48But when you combine it with positive confession
00:14:51That's where it really it really starts to get off the rails and and what I what I would suggest to our listeners to John
00:14:58I mean if you go into the book of Peter Peter actually takes that exact same verse that Isaiah wrote by his stripes were healed
00:15:04And the Apostle Peter actually explains what that verse means from Isaiah and it does not mean bodily healing
00:15:11It's actually spiritual healing. It's forgiveness from sins is what the Apostle Peter explains that verse to mean
00:15:16So I would suggest that people who believe in dual atonement are actually contradicting what the Apostle Peter said about Isaiah's verse
00:15:23But at any rate that's that's a dual atonement, but when you combine it with positive confession, that's where this thing gets
00:15:32It gets ugly it gets dangerous and positive confession is a belief that evolved like I think we've walked through this before it evolved out
00:15:40Of Quimby ism out of new science. It got picked up by the British Israelite healers in the late 1800s
00:15:45John Alexander Dowie and so forth, which is where
00:15:49Bosworth lived which is it was nearby Chicago where Kenyon was at and these people pass it on down into the message
00:15:57this is where those beliefs come from and
00:16:00Positive confession is basically the belief that if you will confess
00:16:07Something and believe it with all your heart and all your soul you can have that thing
00:16:12All right, you can have any promise that God promised you could have but you just got to keep saying I have it
00:16:18I believe it. I have it. I believe it. God gave it to me. It's mine
00:16:22You've got a positively confess with your lips with your mouth that you have and are getting this thing that God promised and
00:16:29then you'll get it and
00:16:32When you take that and you combine it with dual atonement will dual atonement promises you can have healing right?
00:16:37so now I'm positively confessing that I can have healing and
00:16:42So long as I positively confess it I can have it
00:16:45And in fact, I do have it and even though outward symptoms may prove I don't have it
00:16:51You know, maybe it looks like I'm sick. Maybe I feel sick. Maybe I have all these conditions still
00:16:56But the truth is I'm really healed and I'm gonna keep saying I'm healed despite all evidence to the contrary
00:17:03Because if I stop confessing that I have this thing, then I'll definitely never get it
00:17:08then I'll definitely never get it and that's the way positive confession works it forces you to say you have something and
00:17:15Believe that you have it despite all evidence
00:17:19To the contrary
00:17:21Despite all evidence the contrary and this is practiced quite widely in the groups and churches
00:17:27That have been influenced by this ideology. So they'll say I'm healed
00:17:33But they're not really I'm glad you brought up the passage from Isaiah and Peter's
00:17:38Explanation of that. I'm no minister. So I try to avoid the theological positions
00:17:43This one is important and it is one that I will mention from time to time because in the way in which the
00:17:51British Israel theology later Christian identity theology
00:17:56developed within this group it developed such that as
00:18:01This false notion that we are the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel
00:18:06These ministers in the movement would pick and choose verses ripping them out of context from
00:18:13whatever passage they were originally written in usually to Israel and then combine it with something else out of context from the New Testament and
00:18:22Make this concoction of scripture. That's like a witch's brew
00:18:25If you take this verse here plus this verse here you equal magic potion a or magic potion B
00:18:32That's that's how this gospel formed and this passage from Isaiah
00:18:38one of the problems with the way that they have done it is
00:18:42They
00:18:43they largely overlook the fact that there was an old and new covenant because if you're focusing on these passages such as this verse from
00:18:51Isaiah and you try to blend it with a new one
00:18:55you're you're outside of both covenants Isaiah being under the Old Covenant and Peter being under the New Covenant and so
00:19:03It was very difficult for me to grasp the fact that there were
00:19:07Such a thing as a period of time with an Old Covenant and then Jesus
00:19:12Introduced the New Covenant. That's not something that's really widely taught in this movement
00:19:17But Isaiah's when Isaiah talks about by his stripes were healed. He's exactly talking about what Peter spoke about the
00:19:25you know the
00:19:26remission of sins because under that Old Covenant that Isaiah was writing about
00:19:32Israel was suffering because of the consequences of the Old Covenant the breaking of the law
00:19:39That concept was very hard for me to grasp
00:19:43Looking forward after I came out of this once I started to understand that
00:19:47They were trying to blur the lines between the Old and New Covenant
00:19:52this
00:19:53even further became a
00:19:56Solidification of my decision to leave because as a false gospel
00:20:00teaching a false set of covenants said it teaching a false set of
00:20:05Doctrines on healing they also had to introduce doctrines of rules
00:20:11because if you're still bound by the covenant of law, you must have rules for which the law was developed and
00:20:19Therefore taking the entire body of modern Christians and
00:20:23Forcing them under a new law that was neither Old Covenant nor New Covenant
00:20:28And I started going back and you can go to my website and just type in rules
00:20:32I started kind of going back and documenting all of the various rules that we had and then
00:20:39carrying it forward to all of the rules that the splinter groups had that were based off of statements that William Branham said and
00:20:47It it was just ridiculous
00:20:49I mean everything from wearing blue suede shoes was a sin to having washing machines was a sin
00:20:56If you take it back to what William Branham said about it
00:20:59And so I began to realize that it was a false gospel where the weight of salvation
00:21:06Was not only in belief in this divine healing gospel
00:21:11But it was also weights that were placed on our shoulders of these rules that had no purpose other than to be
00:21:20under the control of leadership
00:21:21That's really all it boiled down to and I began to realize if we are placing our salvation on
00:21:28Man-made rules instead of the gospel of Jesus Christ, then we have no salvation
00:21:34What happens, you know in so many of these cases John I've known it personally, right? I mean I as a minister
00:21:40Counseled and with people with this problem when you put
00:21:46Faith in healing and faith in salvation on the same plane
00:21:51Right like dual atonement does if you if you just have faith you're saved if you just have faith you're healed
00:21:58Okay, and this is this is how it's set up in people's minds. I just need faith. I can be saved
00:22:03I just need the same faith. I can be healed
00:22:06what happens is
00:22:08When they
00:22:10Use their faith to be healed and the healing never comes, right?
00:22:15They know the healing never comes then their mind starts to go. I'll oh, I don't have faith
00:22:20I don't have faith and if I didn't have faith to be healed. Well dual atonement
00:22:25It's the same faith that healed me is the same faith to save me. Oh, I must not also be saved
00:22:30and so then it sets up this really
00:22:34terrible thing that happens in these people where
00:22:37When they fail to be healed it triggers this chain reaction where they begin to think oh, oh
00:22:43I'm also not saved and now you take somebody who's experiencing a a
00:22:50condition where they are
00:22:53Suffering in with this terrible
00:22:56condition maybe that's going to take their life and
00:22:59This doctrine has set them up to now believe that because they're not being healed
00:23:04They're also not being saved right and and here they're going to their grave
00:23:10Thinking they're going to hell because they're not being healed, right? And it is
00:23:16What this does is it it puts these people who are in an end-of-life condition?
00:23:25Into this terrible position of internal turmoil where they're wrestling with the fear of going to hell because God's not healing them
00:23:33And this then the reaction the way you react to this in this belief system is you've got to continue to confess
00:23:40The healing I mean to the moment that you die, right?
00:23:43You cannot let your faith go because if you let your faith go
00:23:47It's almost like letting your salvation go and you'll see them to their deathbeds saying I'm healed. I'm healed
00:23:55I'm healed. I'm healed. I'm healed
00:23:59But they're not they're not they're not and they die and then even at the funerals how many of their funerals I've been on
00:24:05I think we even showed some of tombstones in our recent episodes
00:24:09Where they'll still put on their tombstone that they were healed
00:24:11They didn't die or that at the funeral we would even say at the funerals
00:24:16Our brother is healed today. Our sister is healed
00:24:19they're their bodies in the casket and we're saying they're healed at their funerals even and
00:24:25It it's so sad and it's so unfortunate and and what what that actually is, you know, where's that happens
00:24:32you just
00:24:34You know step back and look at it with
00:24:39Reasonable logical thinking here. Okay. Here's somebody who is not healed, but they're saying they are healed
00:24:48What is that? That's dishonesty. That's really what it is, right? You're breaking. This is not positive confession
00:24:54This is false confession, right? It's it's false witness. You're breaking one of the Ten Commandments, right?
00:24:59You're saying I'm healed, but you're not really healed
00:25:01And so so what happens is this really just turns people into liars and it's so sad. That's how hard to say that
00:25:09I mean, I'm sorry out there. I mean if you haven't looked at it that way, I apologize for hurting your feelings
00:25:13But it it what did you're doing is you're lying, right? And if you have a faith healing cult
00:25:20So the message is a doomsday cult
00:25:21It's also a faith healing cult James and I mean the rather a William Branham was a faith healer, right?
00:25:27This turned the people into his accomplices, right? How do you know?
00:25:30How do you know in the message when someone comes to you and says I'm healed
00:25:33How do you know whether that's positive confession or a genuine healing?
00:25:37You don't right?
00:25:39How do we know that all of these?
00:25:41Stories in voice of healing and all these stories that we hear on tape with William Branham
00:25:46How do we know that whether it's positive confession or genuine healing?
00:25:49The truth is we don't right you you can't really tell the difference between a genuine healing and positive confession
00:25:58Just based on the words of people alone
00:26:00And that is how William Branham got so many healing
00:26:04Testimonies and why there are so many healing testimonies in the message today. A lot of it is simply positive confession
00:26:10It's not actually authentic healings. I I would even go so far to say John that maybe
00:26:1690 plus percent of the healing testimonies in the message are actually positive confession and not authentic healings
00:26:23Yeah, I would agree
00:26:24it's it's widespread and people who are in it do not realize it's so widespread because
00:26:31Often when they hear the person who claims I'm healed
00:26:35They only see the claim
00:26:37they don't see what happens behind the scenes and that's
00:26:40Exactly what is going on with the the members of my family who are
00:26:45Proclaiming healed and they have been sick
00:26:48I mean deathly deathly sick for ages long as I can remember as even as a child
00:26:55one of the problems
00:26:57you know, and this is another part of it's a complex reason why I decided to leave but
00:27:02One of the problems with this gospel of divine healing because it was based on Christian identity and British
00:27:10Israelism
00:27:11there was a concept in British Israel ism that developed into what you and I have
00:27:16explored and
00:27:18Documented called the manifested sons of God and this was a very heretical very dangerous
00:27:25awful group of
00:27:27People subscribed to a doctrine that they they could become like gods
00:27:31And when you talk to them the main body of the message movement
00:27:36Many of them will deny this they will say that we do not believe that that's heretical those people are dangerous
00:27:43They're weird. And I mean Mike Bickle his group believed the manifested sons of God. They learned it through Paul Cain
00:27:49Paul Cain learned it through Branham Branham learned it through the British Israel doctrine and
00:27:55To believe this doctrine to is to its full extent
00:27:58You have to demote the power of Jesus so that you can elevate the power of humans
00:28:04And that was a concept that was very hard for me to grasp and it took you know
00:28:08Even long after I left I didn't fully understand that. I just knew something was wrong
00:28:14because they would often go to
00:28:17they would go to verses that were just completely ripped out of context such as
00:28:23Thy faith has made thee whole you'll hear them. You'll hear that phrase over and over and over in these sermons and it's
00:28:30Advocating for the notion that faith and faith can heal you and
00:28:34That's this only works with the manifested sons of God framework because if you go back to that example and read it in context
00:28:43It's not the faith and the faith that has healed the person
00:28:46It's their faith in Jesus and his connection to God that has healed them
00:28:51Well in the manifested sons of God framework, you don't have to have God because we're all gods
00:28:58Well, we all have this greater or lesser
00:29:02fulfillment of the being of the embodiment of Christ and
00:29:06literally
00:29:07The phrase that is often used also from the Bible is is it not said that you're gods though?
00:29:13They'll combine those two together and you have to demote
00:29:18Jesus to promote these apostles and prophets and
00:29:22widespread
00:29:24Advocation for this manifested sons of God framework and I just Charles I just came to the place where I could not
00:29:32justify
00:29:33Demoting Jesus so that I could be more like God. I realized that that's wrong
00:29:40what they're doing in this in this movement is wrong and
00:29:44Carry it forward to my research today
00:29:47look at the sheer number of
00:29:49Different groups that we've identified. I mean we just mentioned Mike Bickle, but it's more widespread than Mike Bickles group
00:29:56Look at the widespread
00:29:58heresy that was introduced by this because all of these
00:30:02So-called apostles and prophets and all of their quote-unquote Joel's army that they developed
00:30:08all of these people are falling under that same air and
00:30:12I realized that
00:30:14For me for my family we could not live like this
00:30:18Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostal ism
00:30:25transition through the latter reign
00:30:27Charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic Reformation
00:30:31You can learn this and more on William Branham historical researches website
00:30:36William dash Branham org on the books page of the website
00:30:40You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley
00:30:45Stephen Montgomery John MacKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book
00:30:53You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements
00:30:59If you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top
00:31:05and as always
00:31:07Be sure to LIKE and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching
00:31:12On behalf of William Branham historical research, we want to thank you for your support
00:31:18This belief set has spread far and wide. I mean this it's not just the message
00:31:23I mean most every movement that's descended out of either the latter reign or the healing revivals in the 40s and 50s
00:31:30Believe this way, you know in some degree or another some of them go to a greater extreme than others, right?
00:31:36And I think Hobart Freeman's group faith assembly is a is a great example of one that went to a great extreme because they got
00:31:44To the point that they believe
00:31:46Also that you never go to a doctor. God will always heal you and if you die
00:31:50It's because you didn't have faith right there. They get to the point that they even completely
00:31:55drop all medical treatment and
00:31:58That also is somewhat
00:32:00Happens from time to time in certain message groups and with certain individuals in the message that they take those beliefs to the same extent
00:32:06That they also will not take medical treatment and I do think it's worth pointing out
00:32:12I know you did a good job of this in the episode with Chino Ross, but
00:32:17Hobart Freeman and faith assembly his faith assembly are definitely an evolution out of the beliefs of the message and I
00:32:25Don't know John that I have ever said this on the podcast series, but I'll say it right now
00:32:29The sect of the message I come from is called faith assembly
00:32:35and
00:32:36The majority of the churches in my sect of the message are called faith assembly, right?
00:32:41And it's not a coincidence that Hobart Freeman's church was called faith assembly
00:32:45And you know, I think I've shared with you the audio clips
00:32:48We had a brother Hobart in our church in the in the late 60s and early 70s
00:32:52and you know, I don't know that it's the same Hobart that was before my time, but
00:32:56You know Hobart Freeman lived like five to ten miles away from our church in the late 60s
00:33:02Right in the same years that we had a brother Hobart, you know
00:33:05Is it that a coincidence that we had a brother Hobart at our faith?
00:33:09Assembly who a few years later went to Warsaw and established another faith assembly, you know, I don't know
00:33:14But we do know he was around a lot of our people, right?
00:33:17We do know that he was near the brand of tabernacle. We know he came into contact with the message
00:33:21We know he was associated with the full gospel businessman
00:33:23He was definitely in the same circles that our preachers were and you seen what happened there
00:33:28They got to the point that they stopped even believing in
00:33:32going and having medical trip medical treatment of any sort and
00:33:36The death toll was I believe I believe I've heard 125 to 150 was the death toll that ensued in that church
00:33:45but John that is not that that's maybe a
00:33:49Big number, you know an extreme number, but I would say
00:33:53That many or more have died in in the faith assembly churches
00:33:56I come from to write and we have our beliefs were not quite that extreme where we denied all medical treatment
00:34:02but it's very common for our people to
00:34:05refuse or to limit medical treatment and
00:34:09We had I could I could go through I thought of a variety different stories. I could tell you about people who
00:34:17Died as a result of our faith healing beliefs in in our sect of the message and maybe as you go along
00:34:24Maybe I share a couple of those more recent ones with people
00:34:28Just explain how this this belief is is all over the message and it ends up manifesting with people suffering and dying
00:34:36Prematurely it is really the sad reality of it
00:34:39Right. It's it's awful when you think of the number of people who have died
00:34:43I mean not just Hobart Freeman not just William Branham, but look at the history of this thing
00:34:50My research has gone back so far as John Alexander Dowie
00:34:54who is labeled as quote God's general and
00:34:59You know as I'm trying to
00:35:02Understand how this gospel this false gospel came to be. I wanted to know its origin its origin
00:35:09I want to know the source. So I went from Branham that led me into Bosworth
00:35:13I saw Bosworth's doctrine and I want to know where did Bosworth get it and lo and behold
00:35:19He was a leader in the John Alexander Dowie cult of the Christian Catholic Church
00:35:24I think they called themselves out of Zion, Illinois, and I just started going through newspapers and I had a
00:35:32interview on Daniel Long's channel
00:35:35And we were talking about how many of these articles to read I read every single one of them
00:35:40And if you go to newspapers.com, you'll find that there are tens of that maybe hundreds of thousands of articles
00:35:49Alexander Dowie, I read every single one of them across the span of several years and I
00:35:55Came to understand that he was not God's general. This guy was
00:36:00Even worse than a con man. This was like the Christian mafia and he was the Christian mob boss
00:36:05but they were whisking away bodies under the
00:36:09Blanket of night, but they had a had collaborated with the undertaker
00:36:14So the undertaker would drive the hearse into the night
00:36:18Snatch a body out of there who had died in these so-called healing homes and then the public, you know
00:36:24They they didn't see this
00:36:26so they did not see the suffering and death that was happening in this cult and I began to tie that back to
00:36:33The experiences that I have with family close friends people
00:36:38acquaintances
00:36:39These people proclaimed healing and I knew their private lives. I knew how badly they suffered
00:36:47Like you said out outright lying
00:36:50They would say I'm healed and then they would go home and be near death
00:36:54And some of them did die. I mean, that's how bad this was
00:36:57but
00:36:58The people who are in this movement who don't see what's happening day to day in the private lives
00:37:04They think wow, this is wonderful. This person had a deadly disease and now they're healed
00:37:10100% healed they often say
00:37:12But they're not there these people suffer
00:37:15You know, I thought of one story I would share John
00:37:19Just just kind of how this works in the churches I come from and this story is about my grandfather actually so
00:37:25family story
00:37:26My grandfather was on blood thinner for 50 years, right?
00:37:31he was in his 80s when he passed away, but he was on blood thinner for 50 years and
00:37:37He had a he had a risk of stroke and
00:37:40When he got into his in the last few years of his life
00:37:44He started to develop some mild Alzheimer's type dementia and he was he was in a very mild state, you know
00:37:51His judgment just wasn't quite right, but he was still lucid enough. He knew who we were
00:37:56He could talk to us, you know, and and he could do that, you know the things to to live from day to day
00:38:01And so as he's in that condition
00:38:04We have a preacher and he gets up and he preaches
00:38:08how
00:38:10He is never gonna take his blood thinner medicine ever again, this preacher says the doctor told me I need this blood thinner
00:38:16Well, I don't need this blood thinner
00:38:18I'm healed by God praise the Lord and and he and the blood thinner in question was plavix
00:38:23And so he's whole sermon is why God
00:38:27Doesn't need him to take plavix because God's gonna heal him, right and he just rips plavix to pieces all through his sermon plavix
00:38:34We don't need plavix. I don't need plavix. God's healed me if I take that again, why would I do that to demonstrate?
00:38:39I don't have faith. So he goes on this big long spiel
00:38:42Against plavix in his sermon that happened to be the same
00:38:47Blood thinner my grandfather was taken
00:38:50well
00:38:51My grandparents go home. Like I said, my grandfather's got some mild dementia
00:38:56And what do you think he does?
00:38:58He quits taking his plavix because the preacher said we don't need plavix for about, you know about a month later
00:39:05He took a terrible stroke John
00:39:07That that medicine was actually there to prevent
00:39:11He went into a nursing home. He never knew who he was again after that. He never recovered from that stroke and he eventually died
00:39:21The those are the sort of things that happen in the message right now my grandfather was elderly, right?
00:39:26I mean he would have passed away eventually he had he did have you know dementia, right?
00:39:31And you know who's to say maybe some of that wouldn't have happened anyway, but you know in my opinion
00:39:35I mean, I think the preacher who preached against that medicine has some responsibility in that situation, right?
00:39:41And I could share so many stories like that, but that's one of my own stories. It's my own family
00:39:46I feel okay to tell that story, but it's really sad
00:39:51What these beliefs do?
00:39:53To people and and it breaks my heart sometimes just to even talk about it to think about it. It's really hard
00:40:00and you know in this type of
00:40:02cult religion
00:40:04There are a lot of mental health issues and I can't stress enough the importance of focusing on
00:40:10Helping those who have the mental health
00:40:14Issues it's widespread. I've I know many people who friends of mine family of mine
00:40:22Acquaintances and I went from churches from Arizona to South Carolina and everywhere in between
00:40:27I know many many people who suffer with mental health issues
00:40:31Some of them really really severe and
00:40:34in
00:40:36This type of gospel you are taught to deny
00:40:41deny anything that resembles
00:40:44something that
00:40:45Your body is suffering with so you deny the mental health issues and in doing so you have to deny the people who need help
00:40:52from their mental health issues with their mental health issues
00:40:56and they'll often deny the medication for it and
00:40:59This becomes very problematic because if if the mental health issue is so severe
00:41:06That the person cannot remain stable without medication and you're trying to convince them not to take the medication
00:41:13Well, then it goes into the cycle that it repeats forever. I know personally
00:41:19People who my grandfather from behind the pulpit
00:41:23would talk about how how bad they had gotten and then
00:41:28After they got the medication they got quote-unquote healed and everybody in the church was praising God because
00:41:35You know grandpa didn't really mention the fact that the person got their medic got it back on their meds
00:41:40he also didn't mention the time whenever they went off of their meds and
00:41:45So they relapsed and often relapse far worse than they had to begin with but they go through this cycle
00:41:53Now people with mental health issues
00:41:55Often there is a struggle to get them to take their meds
00:41:58But compound that with a cult who is trying to teach you that you don't need the meds
00:42:04So in the back of their mind as they're suffering their suffering becomes
00:42:09exponentially greater because they teach them not to take the meds and
00:42:13it's it's so problematic Charles because
00:42:16These the quality of life that these people could have if they were to be on their meds is
00:42:22Completely robbed of them and then
00:42:26Make it even worse the cult
00:42:30Demonizes anything that resembles mental health issues to the extent that if somebody leaves the message
00:42:36They will actually tell them they'll actually tell all the people that that person has a mental health issue
00:42:41and that's why they left and they they further demonize the the mental health rather than
00:42:47Saying that if the people were to go to the doctor and get what they need to make their body chemistry, right?
00:42:54The person could have a normal life
00:42:57And this is not centralized to just the Branham cult. We actually went to I'm not going to mention the name
00:43:03But we went to a mainstream denomination
00:43:07after leaving the cult and
00:43:09They had somehow got a hold of this
00:43:12Latter rain ideology that Branham had taught and they claimed that
00:43:17If a person had mental health issue, it was because they needed
00:43:21They needed intervention from their pastor because they had
00:43:25Alleged sin in their life and they were actually convincing people who had
00:43:31issues that could be
00:43:33Resolved with medication not to take their medication and this was in a mainstream denomination
00:43:39So it's not limited to the message
00:43:41But all of this developed from this framework that you and I have examined on this, you know on this podcast
00:43:48they have put such faith in faith that they have taken away faith in the gospel and
00:43:54I just can't picture a gospel where it is designed that people should suffer
00:44:01I can't picture that being any of any value whatsoever
00:44:05So our family just decided we no longer value this false gospel the gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple
00:44:13You know once once I finally heard it after leaving the cult. I was like why on earth did they hide this from us?
00:44:19It's so simple and it's I mean you can live a good life
00:44:23You can have a happy life and you're gonna have struggles. That's part of life
00:44:27But why would I want to focus on a false gospel like this? I
00:44:31Know what you mean?
00:44:32I and you know, I look at people like my my grandfather who was in the message since William Branham
00:44:39The message sent my grandfather to an early grave John listening to the message preacher sent
00:44:44My grandfather to an early grave is in my opinion and I've seen that with so many people so many people and you know
00:44:50I thought of another couple other stories. I might share. I'll give you another one
00:44:54This is the story John when I actually exited the church. I was in where I was the associate pastor
00:44:59And
00:45:01The same preacher who had preached against, you know, the blood thinner medicine with my grandfather situation a
00:45:08lot of other things similar to that
00:45:11Unfolded and I started to become aware at when it happened with my grandfather that kind of woke me up like, you know
00:45:17Hey, we got to be careful with what we're saying, you know
00:45:19Cuz there's people here who are gonna act out on it maybe in a bad way
00:45:24And you know, I tried to talk to him about that a few times
00:45:27but you know, he just kept you know doing the same stuff, you know without really caring about the consequences and
00:45:34When we got into kovat John
00:45:39Most message churches, I don't think they even followed any of the kovat protocols, right?
00:45:43But our church we follow the kovat protocols
00:45:46We we basically had half the people come one service half come the other service. We spaced everybody out, right?
00:45:53Social distancing and we went for several months into kovat like that and we never spread kovat through the church, right?
00:46:00Because the guidelines actually worked right you wear a mask you social distance
00:46:07It actually worked, right? So we did that for I would say maybe six months and
00:46:14Then about six months in the same preacher who you know had preached against medicines in those different ways
00:46:20He preaches a sermon from the book of Isaiah and and he goes to the verses in Isaiah that says, you know
00:46:25The plague will never I'm sorry, not Isaiah the book of Psalms. The plague will never come nigh your door and
00:46:31He takes that and he and he says in that this is almost a direct quote the bride of Christ cannot get kovat
00:46:37God will protect us. The plague will never come nigh our door and and he does some very common message things
00:46:44He says the best place for a sick person is at church because church is where you can get healed, right?
00:46:49I've you've probably heard things similar to that and
00:46:53So the next church service well all the sick people start coming right the people who are sick no longer quarantining they're coming to church and
00:47:02One week after that John one week after that
00:47:07168 people came down with kovat in our church
00:47:10168 people we were we are a large church and I I don't know if you know
00:47:13I mean our church was the largest Jeffersonville message church John
00:47:17Sorry for tabernacle we had y'all beat back then but anyways we had
00:47:23It's not anymore. I can tell you that but
00:47:26168 people out of our congregation got got the kovat and you know, that was you know, certainly less than half the people but
00:47:35We had multiple fatalities John multiple fatalities came out of that
00:47:40All kinds of elderly people were had to be hospitalized. It was really really bad
00:47:45It was so bad we had to close the church and
00:47:50With the with the with the hospitalization with the fatalities and stuff
00:47:53I mean it I have say that really got to me because I in my mind realized hey
00:47:57It was this preachers actions two weeks before this that caused all this to happen, right?
00:48:03We were fine up until then and it was definitely his actions and people
00:48:07Believing what he said and and following along with it the cause what happened and then
00:48:13After we opened the church back up about three four weeks later
00:48:17He preaches again the same preacher John and he announces that
00:48:22His parents his elderly parents have had kovat
00:48:26Kovat been in their house. They're sick and that his elderly mother. They're refusing to give her any medical treatment
00:48:33The doctors have said she should be hospitalized etc. They're refusing to hospitalize her. They're not going to give her medical treatment
00:48:39not gonna give her medical treatment and
00:48:42That was the event John which really I'm like, oh my goodness
00:48:46They're killing this woman and she did John she died that lady died when they denied her that medical treatment
00:48:52And that was really kind of the breaking point. I'm like, I can't go along with this anymore
00:48:57I mean for God's sake we're killing people, you know, we're killing people and that's the point at which I
00:49:02Exited the church I was in I didn't quit believing the message. But yeah the message app these beliefs absolutely come out of the message
00:49:09and people will
00:49:12Kill their own parents for God's sake. I mean, it's unbelievable John. It is unbelievable. It is unbelievable and
00:49:20Your church was not isolated in this
00:49:22I know that I've been to churches a variety of
00:49:26different belief sets that are all built on this framework that we're talking about and
00:49:31whenever this happens in one of these churches the rest of the churches is just kind of
00:49:36You know
00:49:37Cut them off. They'll say they went off in the air because it's undeniable the error that happened in the church
00:49:44But before they cut them off, you know, they're they're really no different
00:49:48That's that's really the key thing to understand
00:49:51It's no different and if you take this across not just the Branham religion
00:49:55But go to all of the splinter groups that develop from this. They all have the same foundation
00:50:01there are varying levels of how much they
00:50:03Accept and reject within this false gospel
00:50:07But the key elements of the false gospel are largely adopted among all of the splinter groups
00:50:14And so the danger
00:50:17Remains no matter which one of the splinter groups you look at, you know, they may not be hyper destructive now
00:50:25But they have the same framework. And so what happens is over time all it takes is one person who becomes
00:50:32You know authoritarian in the group to develop it into a very destructive and as you've you know
00:50:39examined very deadly group, so for me, I you know, I
00:50:44wish there were laws that
00:50:47prevented these these types of groups from emerging in the United States under the way that the
00:50:54Constitution and the
00:50:56You know article as a written
00:50:57There's no way that this can happen because there is a church separation of church and state and the state can't get involved
00:51:04But I wish that that was not the case
00:51:07I wish that there was a way to govern this to protect the people if nothing else
00:51:13Because all it takes like I said, it's just one person to get
00:51:17Sort of a authoritarian mind and lead people to their deaths
00:51:21Yeah, all right and it has happened, you know
00:51:24The Faith Assembly Church is plural in the state of Indiana have killed hundreds of people
00:51:29They write in I mean, it's documented the Health Department has intervened at different times in the past
00:51:34It and it's it's really unfortunate
00:51:37I got one more story John. I'm gonna share one more story. Okay, so we're following the we're following the kovat train
00:51:45so
00:51:47This one comes after this one's not all that long ago
00:51:49this is after I have done left the message that this one happens and I had multiple people from the church who are still my
00:51:55Friends that talked to me call and share the story with me here. Not too terribly long ago
00:52:00Well the the pastor, so this is a different preacher
00:52:04gets a prayer shawl a Jewish prayer shawl and
00:52:08he's got it around his shoulders and
00:52:11He invites everyone to come be healed and in this he's impersonating Jesus he goes
00:52:17He reads the scripture about the woman with the issue of the blood have she touched the hem of his garment and was healed
00:52:22And so he's got on a prayer shawl
00:52:23he says this is like what Jesus wore and you can come touch the hem of his garment the hem of the preacher's garment and
00:52:30be healed and so he invites everyone to come touch the hem of his the preacher's garment and be healed and
00:52:37So they they form lines and the entire church more or less comes around touches the you know
00:52:44The hymns of his prayer shawl and as all this is happening. He's saying
00:52:48They're singing only believe right? Obviously, they're singing only believe
00:52:53and
00:52:55Is it and the whole time? He's also saying only believe only believe everyone that touches him only believe only believe
00:53:00So they're practicing only believe ism, right?
00:53:03and so the whole church files past everybody gets
00:53:08everybody gets all of the
00:53:11Only believe ism healing touching the hem of his garments. What do you think happens?
00:53:16They all got kovat again
00:53:20Instead of getting healed John he gave they all got kovat again because they are spreading the kovat on the prayer shawl to everybody
00:53:27And they had to close the church again
00:53:30It's unbelievable the stuff I mean, it's unbelievable John
00:53:34It's unbelievable the things that go on and people just don't wake up from this stuff. It is unbelievable
00:53:40I lost really good friends and family to kovat. It's it's no joke and I have
00:53:47Through the work I'm doing with James
00:53:50Goat as we're going through these weird doctrines one day
00:53:53We decided to just go through and see what people were saying in these movements about kovat and
00:53:59Everything from the brand of mites to the NAR. They're all teaching a very destructive very dangerous doctrine
00:54:06They place emphasis on
00:54:09prophecy dreams
00:54:11Healing even just casual statements by ministers
00:54:14they they place that above the medication and there were entire churches that taught that the medication was
00:54:21They they were teaching the conspiracy theories, which I'm certain you've heard from behind the pulpit of how
00:54:27they you know, the government was injecting the mark of the beast into your bloodstream and all kinds of weird stuff man and
00:54:36It's just so problematic because they have taken the false gospel and they've they're toying with the people's lives and they've brought death
00:54:44this movement is a movement that is a harbinger of death and
00:54:49You know, I can't I can't stress enough this is the this is why we left this is why we left the message
00:54:56But there are people still in it and my heart bleeds
00:55:00For the people who are suffering in it because they could live good lives
00:55:05they could live healthy fulfilled lives if they were not under the false gospel and
00:55:11If you're a researcher and you're listening to this and you want to see the true
00:55:16Depths of how bad that a false gospel can lead you this is it
00:55:22this is how it can lead you to death and I just I can't stress enough how bad this is a
00:55:29Lot of people when they research cults they go to the extremes like they'll look at Jim Jones
00:55:33Who was a part of Branham's message called?
00:55:37The he led all those people to death and it was it was a disaster. Don't get me wrong
00:55:42But they often focus on that type of event because it makes the news and not the day-to-day
00:55:48heresy that's being taught like this that
00:55:51Honestly Charles if you take the number of people that have died due to this false gospel
00:55:56It actually is worse than Jonestown. That's how bad this is
00:56:01so
00:56:02For me, you know, I I couldn't do it. I couldn't stay in this thing. I would agree with you John
00:56:07I mean the number of deaths that have come from the faith healing practices of the message and
00:56:15I'll say people who believe in a combination of dual atonement and positive confession, you know
00:56:21By themselves, you know, they're not too bad
00:56:24But when you put them together, it's it's a cocktail that it does kill people and it's it's killed people from it's been killing people
00:56:31From the 1800s John. I mean with it we can track them through the newspapers these deaths
00:56:35And those are just the ones that made the press, you know, it's it's it's probably a
00:56:41number that would
00:56:43Be unfathomable to us that have died that it just never got noticed by anybody with these things. I mean John I don't I
00:56:52It's a massive massive number of people that that these that these beliefs have killed prematurely
00:56:58And it's so sad and so unfortunate and you know, I think I do want to say again, you know
00:57:04Certainly, I believe God heals God's a healer right and but the problem with these beliefs is it it
00:57:12Well, what one preacher I heard would say is it turns God into a vending machine, right?
00:57:16You go up and you punch the buttons with the right combination and you get what you want
00:57:20But it's don't it don't work that way, right? I mean you can't faith your way into anything
00:57:26You can't faith your way into healing unless God wants you to have healing and it's not always that God wants to heal people
00:57:33right, I mean
00:57:35Correct me if I'm wrong, but every person who has ever lived including Jesus Christ himself
00:57:40With the exception of I guess Elijah and Enoch have died, right? I mean
00:57:44Everybody that has ever been born
00:57:47Except Elijah and Enoch according to the Bible is has died right and that trend is not going to change right?
00:57:54In the current paradigm, right? That's not gonna change. Okay, so
00:57:59It's inevitable. God does not heal everybody. Everybody has died
00:58:03okay, and so
00:58:04You just can't add those things up and make them work out the way that that these belief systems put them put it together
00:58:10And it it's really sad. It's really unfortunate and it leads to the deaths of
00:58:15Premature deaths of many many people and and torturous
00:58:19Lives that these people live I'd have so many times John that you know
00:58:23I would be counseling people as a minister and one of these other ministers who is more into faith healing
00:58:28I guess than I was has convinced them to give up their medication and have faith and they're living
00:58:35With all of these conditions that if they just take the pill, right it would help but they have went
00:58:41You know, I had one lady one time come to me and she said
00:58:45I've had so much faith this past year since I quit taking my medication because this preacher what he said
00:58:51But I haven't got any better and and she's crying and she's weeping
00:58:54You know of the pain that she's suffering the things that she's suffering and just cannot understand why her faith
00:59:00Was not enough to heal her right and it's so hard to just to tell people like that
00:59:06You have been snookered. You've been snookered right? You've been tricked. You've been fooled
00:59:11Go take your medicine, right?
00:59:13Obviously God does not want to heal you right now
00:59:16Go take your medicine right and it's not a lack of faith to take your medicine and it's so sad and you know to say
00:59:21These things by the cult we come from John would be branded as the worst heretics there ever was. Oh my goodness
00:59:26you're unbelievers, you don't believe in divine healing all this stuff, but
00:59:30the sad truth is John these people have been tricked and it is
00:59:35Harming and killing people so sad so sad
00:59:39It is sad and in summary if I were to sum this podcast episode up in six words
00:59:45It is come out of her my people
00:59:48so
00:59:49Get Charles book come out of her my people if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information
00:59:54You can check us out on the web
00:59:56You can find us at William dash Branham org and Christian gospel church org for an overview of the historical research
01:00:04of William Branham in the healing revivals read preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branham and his message
01:00:12available on Amazon Kindle and audible
01:00:49You
01:01:19You