Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John invites Jed Hartley to "detangle" IHOPKC. Both share personal stories of how their upbringing in a doomsday cult shaped their worldview, their identity, and their spiritual journey, particularly the psychological toll of believing that the end of the world was imminent. They delve into the damaging effects of these apocalyptic beliefs, the constant sense of urgency, and the tension between grandiose expectations and the mundane realities of life.
As the discussion unfolds, it becomes clear that the speakers grapple with the lingering impact of their time in these environments, especially how it influenced their sense of self-worth, relationships, and their pursuit of meaning after leaving the group. The transcript touches on the role of ego in apocalyptic religious communities, the dangers of believing oneself to be a central figure in God’s plan, and the challenges of disentangling from such deeply embedded beliefs. Ultimately, it highlights the complex process of healing, learning humility, and redefining one’s faith or lack thereof after such formative experiences.
00:00 Introduction
02:00 Personal Background and Growing Up in Apocalyptic Communities
04:00 The Influence of Apocalyptic Beliefs on Childhood and Parenting
06:00 Discussion on Apocalyptic Cults and Their Psychological Impact
09:00 Doomsday Cult Mindset and Theological Differences
12:00 Questioning End-Times Theology After Leaving the Cult
15:00 Reflections on the International House of Prayer’s Prophetic Promises
20:00 British Israelism and the Pentecostal Movement’s Apocalyptic Focus
26:00 The Role of Ego in Apocalyptic Religious Movements
30:00 Coping with Guilt and Self-Inflicted Pressure
36:00 The False Promises of Prophecy and Personal Disillusionment
41:00 Rewriting Religious Texts to Fit Apocalyptic Narratives
46:00 The Psychological Toll of Leaving a High-Control Religious Group
50:00 Struggles with Boredom, Loneliness, and Urgency After Leaving
54:00 Learning to Embrace Normalcy After a Life of Apocalyptic Expectation
1:00:00 Closing Thoughts on Healing and Moving Forward
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John invites Jed Hartley to "detangle" IHOPKC. Both share personal stories of how their upbringing in a doomsday cult shaped their worldview, their identity, and their spiritual journey, particularly the psychological toll of believing that the end of the world was imminent. They delve into the damaging effects of these apocalyptic beliefs, the constant sense of urgency, and the tension between grandiose expectations and the mundane realities of life.
As the discussion unfolds, it becomes clear that the speakers grapple with the lingering impact of their time in these environments, especially how it influenced their sense of self-worth, relationships, and their pursuit of meaning after leaving the group. The transcript touches on the role of ego in apocalyptic religious communities, the dangers of believing oneself to be a central figure in God’s plan, and the challenges of disentangling from such deeply embedded beliefs. Ultimately, it highlights the complex process of healing, learning humility, and redefining one’s faith or lack thereof after such formative experiences.
00:00 Introduction
02:00 Personal Background and Growing Up in Apocalyptic Communities
04:00 The Influence of Apocalyptic Beliefs on Childhood and Parenting
06:00 Discussion on Apocalyptic Cults and Their Psychological Impact
09:00 Doomsday Cult Mindset and Theological Differences
12:00 Questioning End-Times Theology After Leaving the Cult
15:00 Reflections on the International House of Prayer’s Prophetic Promises
20:00 British Israelism and the Pentecostal Movement’s Apocalyptic Focus
26:00 The Role of Ego in Apocalyptic Religious Movements
30:00 Coping with Guilt and Self-Inflicted Pressure
36:00 The False Promises of Prophecy and Personal Disillusionment
41:00 Rewriting Religious Texts to Fit Apocalyptic Narratives
46:00 The Psychological Toll of Leaving a High-Control Religious Group
50:00 Struggles with Boredom, Loneliness, and Urgency After Leaving
54:00 Learning to Embrace Normalcy After a Life of Apocalyptic Expectation
1:00:00 Closing Thoughts on Healing and Moving Forward
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00You
00:00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast. I'm your host John Collins
00:00:38The author and founder of William Branham historical research at William dash Branham org and with me
00:00:44I have my co-host and friend Jed Hartley son of a prophet and former member of International House of Prayer
00:00:52Jed I we talked about son of a prophet before I
00:00:55Started this and it's hard for me not to laugh because I'd I
00:00:59Understand what all goes with that and I guess I should do air quotes son of a prophet
00:01:05Yeah, well, I feel like it just is the it's the world that I've lived in and I've kind of had to embrace it a
00:01:12long time ago, I I
00:01:14Thought about even my name Jedediah, you know
00:01:17You introduce yourselves and people will already know that there's some religious context to the name and everything
00:01:24So right now I'm just kind of going with it. I'm embracing it
00:01:27That is the world that I grew up in so as ridiculous as it is. Yeah, you know, it's a it is what it is
00:01:34You know, what can you make of it?
00:01:35I'm the grandson of the head of the Branham Tabernacle and I've came to just embrace it. It is what it is
00:01:42I wish it were not this that way, but that's what it is. But anyway, thank you
00:01:47We're
00:01:48detangling the International House of Prayer and you've joined us as the co-host to help further detangle the mass and
00:01:56Brantley's done a good job leading up to this point. So very glad to have you on here to to help with this
00:02:02Yeah, my pleasure. I'm excited to be on here and appreciate everything you do and so appreciate being on the series
00:02:10Awesome. Well, the synergy is unbelievable this morning
00:02:13I was I was thinking about this podcast and we actually did not talk about
00:02:18beforehand what we were going to speak on today and
00:02:22This song came into my head from a band
00:02:25You've probably never heard of but the Cathedral's quartet, which is southern gospel music
00:02:30That's what we were all raised on in the in the Branham Colts and I was thinking about this song
00:02:36they've got this song called this old house and it's about a person who is
00:02:40You know got a broken-down house that needs fixing up and they could fix it up
00:02:44but the theme of the song is I'm not going to fix it up because I don't need this house because the end of the
00:02:50world is here and
00:02:51I was just thinking of how horrific that is it is doctrinally
00:02:57It's just it takes a person where it makes them of no use to this earth
00:03:03They don't care about anything. They don't care if the house is broken down
00:03:07That is a song that was one of my favorite songs and I was in that
00:03:12Attitude growing up man. It was the end of the world. The rapture was coming
00:03:16We did not don't care for tomorrow what don't care for today what tomorrow may bring that kind of themes
00:03:24those were all embedded in the sermons that we listened to and I grew up just not caring about the world and
00:03:32Raising my children. I have a different perspective now because I'm no longer in this and
00:03:36I want them to care. I want them to think about the future and the choices they make today affect the future generations
00:03:44so just thinking of the balance of that and and then I asked you what we're going to talk about and you're talking about the
00:03:50Apocalyptic cult today and I mean it just fits. It's the same exact thing repeated over and over through time
00:03:58yeah, and I think that the reason why I wanted to talk about it is I
00:04:03Think that it's something that can be forgotten when talking about
00:04:09some of these organizations or at least be minimized
00:04:14because
00:04:16obviously, there are some very large scandals and sexual abuse scandals and I
00:04:23Think that for a secular world or a world that's outside of these communities
00:04:30That's easier to latch on to because it's easier to understand some of that
00:04:36but understanding
00:04:39Prophetic
00:04:41Apocalyptic
00:04:42What it's like to be raised in that community or be a part of that community
00:04:47That's more difficult to for people to empathize and understand
00:04:52And if you were a part of the community
00:04:56That was an apocalyptic community and you're out of it
00:05:00That's something that's easy
00:05:04To
00:05:05forget or not talk about sometimes I'll talk with my sisters about those elements of it and it just it feels
00:05:12Foreign when you're looking back upon your childhood or your early adulthood and thinking about
00:05:19how yeah, I mean I
00:05:22really thought
00:05:23In my lifetime
00:05:25Jesus was gonna
00:05:27Come back split the sky be riding on a horse and that there was gonna be a battle
00:05:32Yeah, you might have believed that the good Christians would be raptured before the tribulation but at the International House of Prayer
00:05:39We were taught that that is not the case that it is
00:05:43post tribulation rapture and that in fact, we would be there to see all of the
00:05:49atrocities, so I would read the
00:05:52Left behind books, you you know the whole left behind series
00:05:57I would read all of that and the big difference is that
00:06:00The Christians would be there for all of the crazy things that went on
00:06:07And it it whether
00:06:10you know whether I would like to admit it or not at times that
00:06:15shaped my
00:06:17Not only my childhood but shapes to what I am today and the way that I think about the world and how I've had
00:06:24to unlearn and
00:06:28Recontextualize a lot of
00:06:31My own quest for meaning for value
00:06:35For you know work for my
00:06:40Relationships
00:06:43All of that the way that I was the way that I grew up everything was oriented around
00:06:50The end of the world and that is always gonna affect me throughout my entire life
00:06:56Absolutely, and there's a lot to unpack there
00:06:59If you were a if you are a Christian and you're just curious about International House of Prayer and you're listening
00:07:06You ask the question well doesn't every Christian believe Jesus is coming back
00:07:10I have seen that in the comment feeds from people who don't understand the complexities of what it is. We're talking about
00:07:18because most Christians do believe in a return of Jesus Christ and
00:07:23What you mentioned pre tribulation rapture post tribulation rapture. I try not to get caught up in that because
00:07:31When you're dealing with a doomsday cult
00:07:34It doesn't matter the order of events your mindset is still focused on doomsday and in the
00:07:42Branhamism
00:07:43there was a change in
00:07:45The end times theology that happened after Branham died and leading up to you know, the International House of Prayer
00:07:53Branham like every doomsday cult leader
00:07:58They believed that their small group was the special ones the elite of the Christians
00:08:03And they did believe in a pre-tribulation rapture for those Christians
00:08:07but they believe by and large the rest of the Christians would go through the tribulations and suffer and all the
00:08:14End-time battles that that were being fought in IHOP. They believe that so it actually falls within the same realm of theology
00:08:22the difference is we considered ourselves to be the elite and
00:08:26We would consider you to be the inferior Christians who fought the battles
00:08:31So there's that
00:08:34but like I said, I try not to get caught up in that because
00:08:37For a child growing up in it
00:08:39I think it's different than an adult who joins later in life our frame of reference as a child growing up in this is
00:08:46Always that there's a doomsday. That's always the elephant in the room
00:08:50Whereas, you know, I've talked with members who came in later
00:08:55They were probably in the cult for about 10 years 15 years
00:08:58They had a different frame of reference and so their foundation
00:09:03Thought of the world as a place that they could make better
00:09:07Whereas I you know, I didn't care if the world was better or not, you know after I die
00:09:12It doesn't matter what happens next because if I die before this rapture comes or the end of the world
00:09:17It's gonna happen anyway, and I believed it might happen tomorrow or the next day or the day after that
00:09:23so I did not try to do things better and
00:09:27I remember having this conversation with dr. Stephen Hassan
00:09:31after I left the cult and
00:09:34Realized it took me a long time to realize that it was a doomsday cult
00:09:39Because that phrase isn't commonly used when you're in one
00:09:42Once I realized it was and then I started looking at this old house
00:09:47Like the song said my house was falling apart and I spent the better part of a year just going through fixing
00:09:54Everything from the shingles to painting the wall things that every person should do and you know in
00:10:01normal upkeep of a home I wasn't doing and
00:10:05So I was talking to talking about this with Stephen Hassan
00:10:08He said it's very common whenever somebody is in a destructive cult after they escape they re-evaluate
00:10:15their entire worldview and a lot of that worldview includes
00:10:19Making their luck their own lives better in in their own environment
00:10:24I know that you were gonna ask me questions, but just to ask you a few when
00:10:31Was it with was there a moment where you realized you were not
00:10:38The end times wasn't coming in your life
00:10:41Or that that aspect of it was wrong or was it a slow burn?
00:10:47Yeah, so I actually like the back and forth with the questions because I have I'm still
00:10:53Detangling what I came from and in my head there are things that I still have to unravel
00:10:58but for me
00:11:00say I left a doomsday cult and
00:11:03I left almost instantly because I started asking questions and
00:11:08Everyone cut me off just overnight
00:11:11Within 24 within 48 hours churches around the globe had said John Collins has gone rogue
00:11:17He's asked a question and now we must cut him off. However that played out. I'm not certain
00:11:23So I was instantly taken out
00:11:26But I'm such I have such an analytical mind. I want to understand things
00:11:31so
00:11:32whenever I left I started attending different churches and
00:11:37it's
00:11:38good and bad experiences
00:11:41with many of them, but one of the churches
00:11:44Had a plurality of elders so that no single person was in power. No, no single person could become authoritarian
00:11:52Which I did like that model
00:11:54but I started talking to them about the end times because I'm still of that doomsday mindset and I talked to one of them and
00:12:01he was a preterist and I
00:12:04It just didn't make sense to me. How can you be a preterist and believe the Bible was my first reaction?
00:12:09And then I talked to another one. He was similar to what I believed, you know, if you at that point it was
00:12:16Apocalyptic futurism, I think is how how you describe what we believed
00:12:20But I learned that there were four different views of
00:12:24Apocalyptic text in the Bible and there were interestingly four pastors who had different viewpoints
00:12:30Which for me was fascinating because in the cult you had to have the same or they would just oust you
00:12:36But here are four different leaders with four different views
00:12:40And so I got to understand
00:12:43Their perspectives and why they believed it and every single one of them had good solid arguments for whatever it was they believed
00:12:50I'm not going to say that I agree with one over the other one
00:12:53But at that point in time I could see that they're all using Bible references for what they stand for
00:13:00all in conflict and I realized that
00:13:04if it were meant to be black or white, it would have been written in the Bible black or white and
00:13:10I know that I can already foresee in the comment threads
00:13:14We're gonna have people say but it is black or white. You must believe this version that I believe right?
00:13:19but
00:13:21over time I
00:13:22Adopted a pan millennia pan millennias view where it's all gonna pan out in the end was
00:13:30How I adopted it. I learned that phrase from a guy who also escaped the Branham cult
00:13:35But I decided for myself
00:13:39At least for the first few years of me being out of it. I was not going to pick one or the other
00:13:45I wanted to explore them all and understand them all. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I I
00:13:54it's it's interesting looking at my upbringing because
00:13:58You have these principles
00:14:01That you believe early on and you don't realize
00:14:05Like just just like you were talking about how there will be people in the comments saying that it's black and white
00:14:11You know you grow up with all of your
00:14:15leaders
00:14:17Being in what seems to be agreement now
00:14:20I've grown up and realized that they're even within the International House prayer there was in fighting but ultimately Mike Bickle was
00:14:26The one who got got the final say on a lot of this doctrine, but
00:14:32It felt like no, there's one way to interpret the Bible. It clearly says this thing and
00:14:40You would have people who were
00:14:43The numerologist, you know, but I think Branham did this for a while to where
00:14:49Clearly that there are seven sets of 700 years
00:14:53and if you do the math that you come to this date in the
00:14:58Gregorian calendar or something and therefore May
00:15:0217th
00:15:041967 is the day that the you know tribulation comes and then May 17th comes and it's like well
00:15:10Oh, yeah, we forgot to carry the one here and it keeps going them
00:15:15To some extent that that would happen at the International House prayer they were
00:15:20Careful, they were more careful to not give specific dates
00:15:23but the one thing that was always said by Mike and by
00:15:30the leaders at the International House prayer was that
00:15:35This what we were raising up not we I was of the generation but the generation before me
00:15:42so my parents generation was raising up the last generation on earth and that's as specific as you need it to be my
00:15:50generation was gonna be the final generation on earth that that I
00:15:55we were gonna see the end times might my my parents generation was gonna see it with their own eyes and I would be of
00:16:04The generation right in the midst of us
00:16:06it was gonna be the these Millennials who which now they must be really disappointed in the Millennials because
00:16:14They're they're not moving in prophecy in the spirit. Like I would
00:16:18We were supposed to do
00:16:20but anyway that that was
00:16:23That was sort of the statement. So growing up that was the fixed belief that I had and
00:16:31Because I didn't I wasn't first a Christian who then
00:16:36Went to the International House of Prayer. I didn't have like the formed
00:16:43Conventional Christian beliefs and then adopted a more radical position. So I had no idea
00:16:49What was radical and what was conventional?
00:16:53Because so the idea that Jesus rose from the dead
00:16:56Was no more or less radical than the idea that
00:17:02The end times was gonna happen during my generation. Those were of equal principles
00:17:07And in fact, we probably talked about it at equal lengths
00:17:11And so and the same was true for a lot of different prophetic promises
00:17:16I believe that my dad and I believe that Mike Bickle spoke with angels of the Lord just like I thought
00:17:23You know
00:17:24the Lord spoke with Noah or Moses or any of the
00:17:28Heroes of the Bible because that was what I taught and I was taught and I believed it
00:17:34Unquestionably like that that the faith of a child
00:17:38That I had total and utter faith that these larger principles were true
00:17:44I still was I always thought of myself as like a rebellious kid because I would ask a lot of questions
00:17:49But I was just trying to make sense of the things that they taught me and I was holding all of those principles
00:17:54I didn't know that I could choose to not hold those principles
00:18:00And now I think back on it and I mean even within the last couple of years I
00:18:07didn't realize how
00:18:08fringe a lot of the
00:18:11IHOP beliefs were I was talking with my sister and I was like we were we were
00:18:16A leaf on a twig on a branch of a tree in the midst of a forest like we it was so
00:18:23Specific and there there's people who are saying who would open up the Bible and say look
00:18:27It's clearly right there and black and white and it's like, okay
00:18:31Well, if it's that clear in black and white, why is it no one thought of this until?
00:18:381985 and
00:18:41Why are we I mean, I'm not saying we're not
00:18:44And why are we I mean, there's only a thousand of us who probably have this specific of view
00:18:51Why has Jesus not revealed?
00:18:54This truth to everyone and why didn't you know, the early Christians read the Bible and and realize
00:19:01That God was gonna come back in 2,000 years, you know, if it's that obvious
00:19:05Why is there so much disagreement about it, but I I genuinely never even really had that thought
00:19:11Until I mean decades decades after I had been taught all these principles
00:19:18Yeah, see I came to a very similar conclusion
00:19:22But the path that I took to get there was much different. I
00:19:27Wanted to know I want to know how things work. I
00:19:30The kind of guy, you know when I got a radio for Christmas as a kid
00:19:34I took it apart to see what's in it, right? That's the kind of person I am and
00:19:38When I realized that not only were we a doomsday call
00:19:42we had this theme which I think it's shared between I hop and Branham ism, but
00:19:47We thought that there would be an end prophet for the age
00:19:51Which I guess that would be Mike Bickle in the IHOP circles and Branham ism. It was obviously William Branham
00:19:58but
00:20:00from the
00:20:01From the items of research that I published I started noticing other
00:20:06Commenters who were never associated with Branham ism or even I hop or anything like this
00:20:12Making similar comments. Well, that prophet was obviously false
00:20:16Our prophet is the prophet for the age that last age and so I went down this big study
00:20:23Well, what does it even mean last age? What in the world?
00:20:26How is that biblical because if you read the New Testament, it's not talking about
00:20:32Things like this right your Jesus is the answer. He's sending the Holy Spirit
00:20:37So I said that get went into a study of dispensational ism
00:20:40there were numerous texts talking about
00:20:44how the seven churches of Asia Minor which were listed in the New Testament as the seven churches and
00:20:51The messages that went forth to the seven churches. Well, there was a movement called dispensational ism, which added the word age in
00:21:00Addition to the text of the of the New Testament
00:21:03so everywhere where you read church, which was a specific location you would instead read age and it was a
00:21:10dispensation of time and
00:21:12Since there were seven churches
00:21:13they divided the world history into seven different ages and then the last age was apparently us and
00:21:22so that led me into
00:21:24Realizing that not only had they mentally trained my head to believe that we're in the doomsday
00:21:31but they had mentally rewritten the DNA of the Bible to make me understand that
00:21:38Instead of reading the Bible for what it says, which literally says I'm sending these
00:21:43Apostles and missionaries to different churches around the globe
00:21:47Instead those are ages and we just happen to be in the last one, which is doomed
00:21:52Right. Well, and if you look at any
00:21:56any religious
00:21:58scripture Christian
00:22:00if you see yourself as the center of a
00:22:04Religious doctrine so you open up the Bible and you think this was all written for me
00:22:09specifically you're gonna be able to
00:22:12Interpret a way in which it's like, oh, these are all these different ages and
00:22:19Dispensationalism you look and see it and you're like, ah, well, we must be on the precipice of the final, you know age of
00:22:28Humanity the Millennial Kingdom or whatever whatever it is in your you know, obviously there are different
00:22:36Interpretations of that but it all comes from this point of view of
00:22:41Inserting yourself into the center of the religious doctrine the same thing can go for
00:22:50Every I mean legitimately every religious texts and religious community
00:22:54this is every single religious community you see people taking their religious texts that have been made over thousands of years and
00:23:02making it all sort of culminate in the individual and
00:23:08Whether that's the individual community or whether that's the individual person and
00:23:13Within Pentecostal ism. You see this like Dowie did the hat and
00:23:18You have all of these different individuals claiming to be
00:23:22Elijah
00:23:24And at some point you're like well, you can't all be Elijah and maybe we should stop
00:23:31When someone claims that they're Elisha, maybe that should be a good good red flag of
00:23:37Okay, they're inserting themselves into this end times narrative right and they have been reading the
00:23:44Bible and saying I am this is all for me. This is all about me and this is all gonna end here
00:23:52but it's hard because
00:23:54We are
00:23:56We are locked in the time frame that we live
00:23:59And so Mike Bickle can still kind of be like well at the end times is coming
00:24:05it's just right around the corner and
00:24:07When will it be I think we can look down look back and say, okay
00:24:11Dowie was wrong his early 1900s and clearly there's been
00:24:16Much that has progressed since then
00:24:19But at what point do we get to say?
00:24:24You weren't right you you know
00:24:27And it's difficult because it's probably not in my life. I'm like throughout my entire lifetime
00:24:32I will be 85 and I will be talking with
00:24:36People who I grew up with an IHOP and they'll be like, it's just it's right around the corner
00:24:41It's just right there. Like, you know, when does it die? When do we realize?
00:24:45No, this wasn't the time the entire gospel wasn't written for us
00:24:50specifically this entire
00:24:53Narrative of the world isn't leading to Kansas City, Missouri, you know
00:24:58Or Los Angeles or wherever you are
00:25:02This is bigger than us and we're just we're a part of that and that's fine. That's the whole problem
00:25:08I think one of the biggest problems that I've had growing up is
00:25:13Realizing like it's okay to be a name
00:25:19Within many other names in a larger story. I don't have to be a part of the end times church
00:25:24I don't have to be the son of the Grand Prophet, you know, I don't have to
00:25:30Lead tens of thousands to the Lord or do whatever
00:25:35this is
00:25:37There's so much
00:25:39ego wrapped up in these end times church movements and
00:25:45It was destructive to my sense of being and self I felt like I had to also
00:25:50Take on that level of ego and believe that it was me and that I was gonna work and
00:25:57do miracles and raise the dead and that Jesus was gonna return in my time and
00:26:04say well done good and faithful servant, and I was gonna reign by his side for a thousand years and
00:26:12You know, I can I wish I would have just like focused on being a good brother being a good son being
00:26:20a good Christian or
00:26:24Agnostic or who whatever religious, you know, like being a good person
00:26:29and
00:26:30be satisfied with
00:26:33The more mundane
00:26:36But true stories of the world and of my life. I don't know if that resonates with you at all
00:26:43I don't know you you were you were getting into it because you were transfixed on figuring out all the details of
00:26:50It I got into it because I of the ego of all of it
00:26:55So maybe maybe you were just a better person. No, I definitely had some ego there
00:27:01one of the things that was most humbling to me was
00:27:05Once I escaped and started re-evaluating my life
00:27:08I started noticing that the word pride is mentioned. I can't I did a count one time
00:27:14I lost I lost the number but it's mentioned so many times in the New Testament as one of the sins
00:27:19I mean you're reading these lists of sins from the Apostle Paul and pride is in almost every list and I realized that I was
00:27:26very prideful and
00:27:29Rightfully so because I was in a group that we were trained to be prideful
00:27:34We were the elite of the Christians, right? Right, but I
00:27:38Wanted to like you said I did want to understand and it drove me down paths of research that I don't think has an end
00:27:47The problem is this
00:27:49we we were raised in a
00:27:53religion that liked to take certain phrases from the Bible literally and
00:27:58then called the literalists or the fundamentalists we would call them in error because
00:28:04You know, the Bible has different genres and different parallels and different
00:28:10analogies and you can't read everything literally
00:28:12but we we fell into the same error because we would make the same mistakes and I realized very quickly that
00:28:20the doomsday focus
00:28:22Isn't something that was new within our lifetime or even Dowey's lifetime
00:28:26As far back as I could go in research through time back all the way back to the early Gnostics
00:28:33You had problems like this
00:28:35In first Thessalonians, I think it's for Paul says we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
00:28:44Paul is literally saying there that he will be alive and he will remain when in the rapture comes
00:28:51So then every single group of Christians after that statement was made who took that as literal
00:28:59Prophecy or I don't know. I don't know what you call it, but
00:29:02Believed Paul his statement to be accurate. They all were looking for this any day any day this will happen and
00:29:10You had two categories of people you had people that understood the meaning and
00:29:17The themes that were written in those letters from Paul
00:29:20Then you had the others that are so hyper focused on. Oh my gosh, the end is coming. What do I do?
00:29:26What do I do?
00:29:27How do I save myself and they they literally separated into two categories of people one in grave error?
00:29:34and so that's that's what birth like the ascetics so people were
00:29:40Abusing themselves trying to deny themselves pleasures of the world because the world's gonna end. We don't need it. Let's
00:29:47let's save ourselves by becoming more holy by omitting different things and you had
00:29:54It's funny and sad all at the same time. I was reading through I
00:29:58think it's the book against heresies by Irenaeus the first apologist and
00:30:04Anyway, there was a specific group of Gnostics that they went so far as to condemn sex
00:30:09And this group died out because if you can't have sex you can't produce offspring and your group just dissolves
00:30:16So yeah, and that group is no more, right?
00:30:19but
00:30:20It went forward and through time
00:30:23every group that took
00:30:26the theme of
00:30:28apocalypse now and
00:30:31tried to save themselves by getting into a hyper state of
00:30:36Awareness of their own spirituality they all failed and they all went into some error and
00:30:43Like you said earlier, I don't want to make light of the sexual things that happened at IHOP
00:30:50But the core of the problem isn't that that's just the smoking gun
00:30:54And if you look back through time all the way back dating back to the what is it three hundreds?
00:31:00I think maybe early four hundreds you have time and time again. We're similar
00:31:05Errors are happening, but they're all get working themselves into such a frenzy that literally they're going insane
00:31:13so you have
00:31:15you have the mental issues that come with that sense of
00:31:20urgency and I think that yeah, I can't say that that was all of it because we have some of the history with Mike Bickle, but
00:31:27It played or it played a factor. I'll just say it like that
00:31:31Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostal ism
00:31:37Transitioned through the latter reign
00:31:39charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic Reformation
00:31:44You can learn this and more on William Branham historical researches website
00:31:49William dash Branham org on the books page of the website
00:31:53You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley
00:31:58Stephen Montgomery John MacKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book
00:32:05You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements
00:32:12If you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top
00:32:18and as always
00:32:19Be sure to LIKE and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching
00:32:25On behalf of William Branham historical research, we want to thank you for your support
00:32:30What's tragic about all of it? Is that the people who are?
00:32:37Most affected by these apocalyptic communities and apocalyptic teachings
00:32:45Are the individuals who
00:32:48Have the most faith in the community
00:32:51It's it's the the irony is that you had all of these faith healers these prophets who would blame
00:33:00Individuals for not having enough faith when you don't get healed or when these things don't come true
00:33:05but in reality
00:33:09Those who do have the most faith
00:33:13Are the ones left holding the ticket like let's think of it this way if
00:33:18If
00:33:20Me and let's say my sisters get a call from
00:33:24My dad and he says hey, we're all we're all leaving
00:33:28we're going to we're moving God has called us to move and da da da da and
00:33:35We're gonna move today
00:33:37Get your stuff packed up get ready and I pack up all my stuff and my sisters are like now
00:33:43It's not really that big you eventually we're gonna move
00:33:45God has said some of these things and I'm like, no, I am taking it. Seriously. I saw what my father said
00:33:52He said pack up. I have it. I'm there
00:33:56I'm waiting at the bus station and days go by and he's never there and we never move
00:34:02You know, it's the person who believed it
00:34:05It's the person who packed up their things who waited at the bus station who suffers the most from these
00:34:13Apocalyptic communities and what's really frustrating
00:34:18Even now is that
00:34:20When I've spoken up against my father and I've spoken out against International House of Prayer
00:34:26I've had some really personal attacks against me, which
00:34:30largely
00:34:31Don't bother me that much
00:34:33when it's individuals I grew up with it does a little bit more like if I knew you and
00:34:39And you saw me like I believed I went to the bus station because you said so, you know
00:34:46And you saw that I did go to the bus station like so for people who don't know me very well
00:34:51They don't know that I was a kid who was really trying to do all of these things who really believed it who was
00:34:57fasting like as a
00:34:5914 year old I had I went on like a 12-day fast and that is not good for the Constitution of a 14 year
00:35:05old like that's not that's not healthy and I've
00:35:10had like even when I grew up and when I went from high school into college, like I didn't go to a
00:35:17conventional college because I still had this sort of
00:35:21Taking time bomb idea that the end times were near and I needed to do missions work
00:35:27and so I went to YWAM and
00:35:31I
00:35:32Mean my entire life was affected because I believe these individuals and now I'm speaking up against these
00:35:39Individuals and people were being like you were never a part of the community if I was never a part of the community
00:35:44I would have never suffered like I did the whole point that this is hard for me is because I believed
00:35:51Mike Bickle when he said that his brother was gonna walk again
00:35:55One of the core prophecies and was about Pat Bickle Mike Bickle's brother and I can tell this story in more detail
00:36:04if you'd like but
00:36:06Pat Bickle was a paraplegic and
00:36:09I mean before I was born
00:36:12He was in a wheelchair and I grew up. I would go to the church services and I would see this
00:36:18Man who was in a wheelchair and I mean not just the wheel like a full-body wheelchair
00:36:24He would lay out and it was very visceral memory for me
00:36:29and
00:36:30That was one of the core prophecies is that?
00:36:32Revival was gonna come to Kansas City
00:36:34The Chiefs were gonna win the Super Bowl and Pat Bickle was gonna walk again
00:36:38and I believed all of those things just as much as I believed that Jesus was raised from the dead just as much as that
00:36:44Moses part of the seas that Noah, you know
00:36:4940 days and 49 to see Noah was out
00:36:51On the ark in the water and
00:36:54like all of all the stories I believed them all and
00:36:59then Pat Bickle died and
00:37:01The Chiefs won the Super Bowl
00:37:04Which is great, but the Chiefs won the Super Bowl, but there was no revival the end times
00:37:11didn't come and I was left at the bus station just kind of sitting waiting there and
00:37:17Just kind of sitting waiting there and
00:37:19Even going into high school. Like I remember or sorry going into college. I remember there was a
00:37:26friend of mine who she
00:37:29went to
00:37:32She went to a college and studied accounting and I remember being like 18 and
00:37:40She was in my same like grade and I remember thinking
00:37:43What a silly thing to do the world is gonna end and you're studying accounting and which was a
00:37:50Horribly egotistical thing for me to think and I regret that I did it. But you know, that was just this sort of
00:37:56such a condescending thought and
00:37:59now she's got probably a great job and I don't actually know what she's doing with it, but
00:38:04you know
00:38:06That was just my mentality is that I was like, well, why would you go?
00:38:10Why would you get an accounting degree when the Lord is gonna split the sky and we're getting you know, what a
00:38:17ridiculous way to spend your 10 20 years before Jesus comes back and
00:38:23That affected me and I think that's really difficult to pinpoint and hold people accountable for
00:38:30Like I can go into the IHOP community and say hey you guys wronged me because all of these prophecies
00:38:38Didn't add, you know
00:38:40Didn't come true. No one would listen to me
00:38:42No one care about that because they've moved on there's new prophecies to replace the old ones. There's new
00:38:52Promises that you know, there's new carrots at the end of the stick and
00:38:59Now there's just other people having the same process that I did there's other young children who are either being raised there or
00:39:06You know coming as 16 17 18 year olds who are getting drawn into this community who are given the same
00:39:14type of promises that I was given and
00:39:1710 15 20 30 years down the road. They're gonna be like, oh
00:39:21None of that was true, but they would have you know
00:39:25now I don't want to say wasted 10 years of their life waiting for it, but it certainly is
00:39:32you know, it's like a
00:39:36It's like a marriage that didn't it's you give everything to something and realize that it was all for not
00:39:44It's it's really difficult
00:39:47Yeah, there's so much to unpack there, too
00:39:51the one of my studies of late
00:39:53I wanted to understand why Christians did this because it wasn't just in the brand of movement
00:39:59It wasn't just in latter rain it it you know, it developed so
00:40:04Rapidly across the United States. I knew that it had to be something besides the religion that was causing it
00:40:10and that's what
00:40:12Got me into studying British Israelism, and it's later
00:40:17It's later child, which was Christian identity
00:40:20But in British Israel ism
00:40:22They believed as you know that the people of the of North America
00:40:27US and Canada and the British Isles are the descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel
00:40:33And what they tried to do it was a it was more of a political movement than it was a religious movement
00:40:40They were saying that they were better than all the other nations and it kind of grew out of British elite
00:40:46But then it embedded itself in Christianity and it came in through people like Dowey you mentioned earlier
00:40:54Also Frank Sanford was big in this and he was he's one of the people who
00:41:00Literally helped father the Pentecostal movement
00:41:02I believe that their commune actually had speaking in tongues before Parham did and the Pentecostals did
00:41:09but
00:41:10What they did was they were able through Brit the British Israel doctrine
00:41:15they were able to take specific passages that were written for ancient Israel and
00:41:21Then apply that to the world today and if you think about the timeline of ancient Israel
00:41:27There are very apocalyptic scenes all throughout the Old Testament
00:41:31You have the warring nations that are rising up the judgment that's coming from breaking the laws of Moses, etc
00:41:38all of those could be applied and
00:41:42Compound that with the book of Malachi
00:41:45So in Branham ism in latter rain in general
00:41:48They believe that in
00:41:51This last age they were using a dispensation
00:41:54That the Elijah figure mentioned in Malachi 4 was coming to the earth to fulfill that
00:42:01twisted version of the prophecy
00:42:03And then they combined it with revelation
00:42:06so after he came then you would see Elijah and Moses going through after the trip during the tribulation at the end times and
00:42:14When I realized that Paul Cain is one who helped I pop I hop it kind of makes sense because
00:42:20Branham fit the Malachi 4 mold and then you've got now the new Elijah or he I guess he would probably consider himself
00:42:28Elisha, I don't know how Cain fits in
00:42:31But anyway, you've got these two people and you see the connections to Israel. They're all trying to get back and and
00:42:39Create strong ties to Israel. So all of that started to make sense to me
00:42:45But where it got really problematic for me is that to do that?
00:42:50Like I said earlier, you're rewriting the DNA of the Bible
00:42:54you're taking every single passage and instead of its original meaning and context you have to twist the context and
00:43:01Then you have to add your own context to it. So in the end you're writing a new book that doesn't even exist
00:43:09Yeah, and again
00:43:11for me
00:43:13My takeaway from that is it is just a
00:43:18Lot of ego. It's a lot of you like British
00:43:22Israelism being being like seeing all of these promises for Israel and seeing that Israel is God's chosen people and being a
00:43:31white
00:43:32Anglo-saxon Protestant or British, you know individual or whoever it was and being like, you know what?
00:43:37That's about me. That's not about and I'm gonna actually twist this have this weird
00:43:44proven false
00:43:46Genealogy of my ancestors were actually from Israel and I am the true
00:43:51Descendants of Israel and I am God's chosen people
00:43:56It really is just it
00:44:00And
00:44:01You're so enamored with your own
00:44:04religious identity
00:44:06You
00:44:07create this
00:44:10either
00:44:11organization or narrative to put your put yourself at
00:44:17the end and at the pinnacle of God's story and
00:44:23That really is what a lot of people will ask me sometimes
00:44:27Hey, did your dad did he really believe some of these things did Mike Bickle really believe this?
00:44:32Absolutely, they believed it in my opinion, you know
00:44:36What did they also have some?
00:44:40They knew they were speaking falsities at certain points. Yes, like there's always a little bit of
00:44:46Telling a little bit of a lie, but primarily I genuinely just think that there a whole
00:44:55The whole history of the International House of Prayer was shaped by the ego of a few men and
00:45:02These men who just could not help but insert themselves into God's story and
00:45:10There's a story of my dad when he was
00:45:15This is before I was born but
00:45:18when he was on this missions trip in Israel and
00:45:23with my mom and
00:45:26They were do it working on this farm
00:45:29and
00:45:30There was this big tree that they were having to uproot
00:45:34To for whatever purpose on the farm and my dad who's a pretty thick like strong, dude
00:45:41Went a and for like an hour
00:45:44apparently he was just
00:45:46Angry and like trying to rip the tree out and this is a big tree with its roots spread out, you know
00:45:53There's no way that he's going to rip a uproot a tree with his own strength
00:45:58But he later would talk about it and he was like I was sure that I was Samson during that time
00:46:04I mean, he thought that God had given him the strength to rip the tree out and
00:46:11If you know, you know people who would interact with my father. He had a lot of that sort of on
00:46:17One end it always felt like childlike faith, which was fine
00:46:21That's good. Like believe that God is gonna use us and if it's about God, but then it also is just like
00:46:28Grandiose delusions of
00:46:30Thinking that you can uproot a tree is just what a great
00:46:34representation of the world that I grew up in is these men who just thought that they could
00:46:40uproot trees and
00:46:43Had it had it just been about
00:46:47Leading to the glorification of God or whatever that they would talk about then maybe it's it's less
00:46:54Dangerous, but it quite clearly was about
00:46:57Their own ego and their own
00:47:00the elevation of their own names
00:47:02Yeah, absolutely
00:47:05And it goes along with another point that you mentioned earlier. You're talking about
00:47:09How messy it is after you leave there the way that people react to you and the way that people think about you
00:47:16This is a common problem whenever I'm talking to people and working with them in the Branham support groups
00:47:22which
00:47:23The problem exists between all religious cults. They create a very us versus them mentality and
00:47:31Because when you're in these type of doomsday cults, you've worked yourself into this mental frenzy where you do
00:47:40mentally
00:47:41Unstable things like believe that you're Samson that kind of thing
00:47:45Yeah
00:47:46We we tried to keep ourselves into that mental frenzy as much as we could and
00:47:52We did some very stupid things at least. Yeah. I know I did people working on the support groups
00:47:58They did some stupid things
00:48:01But even worse than that
00:48:03Once they realize it's a cult it becomes even more messy because you've already got the mentally
00:48:09Challenging things that you were trying to achieve in your head
00:48:13now all that's unraveling and
00:48:16it's it's a mess man, there are people who do things that they regret say things they regret and
00:48:22I
00:48:23People have confided in me things. I wish I didn't know about them in many cases and my response is always
00:48:30But have you changed because we all I myself included I went through a mess trying to leave the call and
00:48:38I I'm ashamed I was in it
00:48:40I'm ashamed of the way in which it all came out whenever I exited
00:48:44But
00:48:45Am I a better person now?
00:48:47That's what the way I look now have I changed for the better and I can say certainly with for myself at least
00:48:53It's a everyday battle to continue getting better
00:48:57but that same battle exists with every person who is in a cult and
00:49:02If you get focused if you let yourself focus on
00:49:06the way that people will
00:49:10assassinate your character after you leave
00:49:12You'll be dragged down forever because that's their nature they've been programmed to do this and
00:49:18I look back while I was in it. I did the same exact thing
00:49:21If somebody left the cult they went out because they're unbelievers and they're there's filth. They're not I
00:49:28I'm embarrassed to say what I thought about people who left but now I understand why they left and
00:49:34It's it's really hard and it's all
00:49:37all of it comes back to
00:49:39We had this apocalyptic focus that we were trying to save ourselves in our head and it wasn't working
00:49:47We were doing some very stupid things to try to save ourselves
00:49:51yeah, and I
00:49:54totally understand how that leads to
00:49:57for some individuals very ascetic thinking which is
00:50:01Definitely what it happened with me is is this sort of like I'm supposed to be working in miracles
00:50:07I'm supposed to this these are the things that are supposed to be happening. They aren't it must be my fault and I must
00:50:13punish myself for it and
00:50:17While also then having
00:50:21Some of the grandiosity of the world like I've had to I've both had to learn
00:50:28humility and self-worth since leaving that
00:50:32group, which is hard to do at the same time because
00:50:36I've had to
00:50:38Be
00:50:39I've had to get away from those sort of self flagellating tendencies that this very critical
00:50:48Examination of who I am but at the same time I've had to
00:50:54Accept a much more humble a much more
00:50:57Like I've had to separate some of my own grandiosity
00:51:01this is this is a biggest the biggest problem and it always has been for me is just work like
00:51:07To well a lot of your life consists of a lot of mundane tasks and
00:51:14It is very hard for me to accept mundane tasks because I feel like
00:51:21That I shouldn't be doing this. I should be doing these mundane things
00:51:25I should be doing this. I should be doing these great things and being a part of these great
00:51:30like I was supposed to do I have all these expectations on my life and
00:51:36Even now it's hard to just be like, you know what? I'm gonna just have to
00:51:41Slow it down and do my taxes and do these these more simple things and
00:51:49Or in like relationships to of like
00:51:53have
00:51:55Letting it be oh, I'm I'm figuring it out. I don't know what to do in this situation being like, oh I can't
00:52:05It's just difficult to to find that balance of both humility and
00:52:12Self-worth after leaving a world that was so
00:52:17Grand in its scale both in its criticism of you and it's it's sort of
00:52:26A
00:52:27Praising of you as an extension of the rest of the group. I mean, it's so extreme
00:52:33Such highs and such lows
00:52:35it is and
00:52:37Some of the things that you're mentioning
00:52:39Every single person who has escaped any destructive cult no matter which they all struggle with it boredom
00:52:45For example, yeah, whenever you leave boredom will rip your mind apart
00:52:51But yeah totally to a person who's never in this they just simply say well I'm bored
00:52:55Let's go do something
00:52:57But whenever you escape this you're trying to keep yourself in this mental hype your entire life and it's mentally exhausting
00:53:04So you're either mentally exhausted or you fall asleep when you're in these these cults that are
00:53:11What does my wife call it? She calls it a high control group a high demand group when you're in a high demand group
00:53:17It's a very demanding so you're in that state and you'd never really learn to cope with boredom
00:53:24The other thing is aloneness
00:53:27because in these type of cults
00:53:29It's so unhealthy the way that we we were so close and in each other's business
00:53:35That whenever you have some time to your law to yourself alone, you really struggle
00:53:41You're you're like what I need to connect to somebody and I need to you know
00:53:45get back with the group get back with the group, but
00:53:49Normal people experience boredom normal people experience alone time and it's for me. It's also
00:53:56Struggling like I can't just sit down and watch a television program
00:54:00Yeah, and I've been escaped from this thing for it was 2012 when I left January
00:54:052012 I can't just sit and watch I've got my computer up. I'm writing a book
00:54:09I'm always multitasking and it's part of part of the development
00:54:14And it all comes back to I was in this in this destructive cult the world was ending I don't have time rush rush
00:54:22rush
00:54:24Totally and that
00:54:26Everything that I have to do has to be important. I mean that
00:54:30Being able to sit and watch a movie or play a video game or something like that. I
00:54:35Feel like I'm wasting my time
00:54:38You know, I'm supposed to be furthering some grand purpose and now it's difficult because I don't believe in any of those grand purposes
00:54:46So I'll feel this sort of discontent, but it's this
00:54:50absolutely
00:54:54Aimless discontent where I'm like, I well, I don't actually know what I'm supposed to do
00:54:59but I feel like I ought to be doing something and
00:55:02it
00:55:04Keeps me from just enjoying the simpler things in life, and I fortunately have kind of worked through
00:55:11some of that but for a very long time that was a
00:55:15Big thing for me is that I just couldn't I couldn't watch a football game
00:55:20Quite quite literally there was a lot of times where my dad would get angry with me
00:55:24if I did these things if I watched a football game or
00:55:29Because it was like hey, we were especially when I was traveling with him. I would be like, hey the Chiefs are playing today
00:55:34Let's go watch the Chiefs and he'd be like no we got it
00:55:38We're on a mission strip. We got a I mean it was ministry trip
00:55:41but we got to meet with this person and this person and this person and I was just like I
00:55:46felt guilty every single time where I was like, I just kind of want to have fun and
00:55:51Eat some good food and watch watch your game
00:55:54Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Although I will say recently I discovered the video game Starfield and
00:56:02It's it's so entertaining. I'm it's kind of in a different world. So you your mind kind of does unravel
00:56:09I did waste a little bit of time on that but not as much as I would like it's it is difficult and
00:56:17one of the key concepts I try to help people with whenever they contact me from the support groups is
00:56:24that
00:56:26Immediately when you leave a destructive cult that was focused on doomsday
00:56:30Apocalyptic themes you have to rewire your thinking of urgency
00:56:35Because yeah, every single person who leaves
00:56:38They're instantly they've got to plug themselves into some other church and say
00:56:43You hear this all the time in the comment feeds if this wasn't the prophet. Well, who is the prophet for our day?
00:56:48Yeah, so they've got to go find it. They've got to plug in right and I tell them first
00:56:53Just take a step back because if God is all-powerful and God is gonna lead you
00:56:58He's not going to care that you keep this urgent
00:57:03This urgent thing in your head. You've got to let him deal with the time timeline, you know, let him control the time
00:57:10Go try some new churches if you want if you're a church goer after you leave go try some new churches some people
00:57:17they've just been burned and
00:57:21From religion religion has so destroyed their lives when they leave they don't want anything to do with it for a period of time and
00:57:29I you know the urgency for them
00:57:32Now you've got this group of people who are urgently trying to get them back in the church
00:57:36And I see that just as problematic let them heal then then go back
00:57:42you know if I was a if I was a
00:57:44Carpenter and I'm swinging a hammer and I rip one of my biceps. I'm not gonna immediately go try to swing that hammer again
00:57:50I've got to let it heal before I do and I'm I'll sit off on the bench for a while
00:57:54So I tell people if you if you have to sit out on the bench for a while, but keep thinking about
00:58:01making yourself better and keep you know, keep your focus if you're a Christian after you leave keep your focus on
00:58:08Christ of the Bible not of this thing that they were teaching you and if you're not just try to think what
00:58:15What is it?
00:58:16How did this world come to be?
00:58:18Think of the things that we weren't allowed to ask ourselves that every other person in the world did
00:58:25you know every person goes through that that phase if you're not in a cult you go through that phase of
00:58:31What made this earth who made this earth?
00:58:33Somehow all of this came to be how did it come to be?
00:58:36dwell on those questions and
00:58:38You know
00:58:39You probably find you and back in the same place that the other people who left and plugged in would have gone anyway
00:58:45Yeah, well and what's what's
00:58:49Interesting is that if you talk to I
00:58:53hop apologists right now because there still are many a
00:59:00Lot of them either are gonna be
00:59:04focused on the next prophecy right you are gonna be
00:59:08God is still doing all of these things
00:59:10Look at what's happening in Israel and you're not gonna be able to have a concrete conversation about
00:59:16past prophetic promises
00:59:18so either they're gonna be forward focused and it's just gonna be a difficult conversation or
00:59:22a lot of individuals who I know and who have grown I've grown up with will be like well, but I
00:59:29Hop was still good and a lot of times what they will describe
00:59:33Are gonna be some of the more mundane things are gonna be like the prayer room
00:59:38There was this 24-hour house of prayer and I would go there and I would feel spiritually healed
00:59:43I would be able to pray and you know, and it's not the grand things
00:59:48It's they're not gonna talk about the one thing conferences. They're not gonna talk about
00:59:53You know the awakening that happened in 2010 or whatever. They're not gonna talk about the healings because
01:00:01There they weren't
01:00:03The miracles weren't what was promised so no one's gonna point to the miracles what people will point to is
01:00:11The relationships they had they will point to how they felt like God
01:00:16Communed with them during that time and it's like all of those things could be found
01:00:23Without all of these grand prophecies without all of this end time
01:00:27Apocalyptic rhetoric all of you could just have the house of prayer doesn't have to be international
01:00:33You could just have you know a place where it's like
01:00:39What has been for several thousand years where people will have
01:00:47Religious
01:00:49Organizations be about communing to the individual about being a place where you get healed like I I was talking with someone
01:00:56Right after all of the Mike Bickle scandal and they're like should we
01:01:01Be on team burn. I hopped to the ground or should it should it be?
01:01:07Reformation or should it be reconstructed? And I was like, well if the International House of Prayer did very little other than
01:01:15What based like if they basically adopted the International House of Pancakes idea where it's just a place where people can come get fed
01:01:2324 hours then that would be great. You know if people could just worship come there find
01:01:29Whatever they're looking for in communion, then that would be fantastic. But I
01:01:34hop is so
01:01:38Fixed its identity on the grand that's never gonna happen that they're never gonna be able to walk it back
01:01:44to be just those basic things and so
01:01:48Yeah, and and I want to recognize that I understand like when people see me criticizing the International House of Prayer
01:01:55There will be a lot of like I but it meant a lot to me and I get that I totally get that
01:02:01It wasn't all terrible
01:02:03A lot of it was pretty bad. But like even in my own relationship with the International House prayer
01:02:09There was a lot of times where I like would go to the prayer room and I felt a spiritual
01:02:14You know, I felt spiritually fed and that was good
01:02:18but
01:02:19Those moments became very far few and far between for me to be quite honest. I'm pretty much the same way
01:02:26I actually while I was in it, I would say that there was nothing bad. It was a good place
01:02:32I enjoyed a lot of my life in the cult and I had some very I still have some very fond memories. I still enjoy
01:02:40Thinking about those memories and the people that are in them
01:02:44But it wasn't until after I left and realized that my frame of mind
01:02:49Was so far off from what it should have been that I wasn't in a good place and it was making me become
01:02:56Worse and worse that the place that I was in while I was in the cult
01:03:01My focus was in the wrong place. My focus wasn't on making the world a better place or loving people as Christianity
01:03:08Teaches you it was all about this doomsday focus
01:03:11What can I do to hasten my escape from this world and I don't care about this world because I'm going to escape it
01:03:19so I'm just glad I was able to get past that focus, but even more so I
01:03:24have children and I'm
01:03:26Just really thankful as I watching them grow up and having the right focus
01:03:30I'm watching their lives and I'm in many ways
01:03:34I'm envious because I'm watching the way that their lives are playing out in the way that I wish mine had
01:03:41Whenever I was in this thing, so it's it's a lot to learn and we're all getting there and after you escape
01:03:47It's I think every day is a learning process
01:03:51Yeah for sure. Yeah
01:03:53Well, thank you so much for doing this. We'll pick back up
01:03:57We've got so many topics to explore and I I've sitting here making a mental list as we're talking today
01:04:02And I'll probably come up with ten different topics that we could go. Yeah. Yeah for sure
01:04:06There's there's an endless amount of stories too. So yeah, we have plenty plenty to talk about
01:04:14Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web
01:04:18You can find us at William dash Branham org for more about the dark side of the NAR
01:04:24Read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR
01:04:29available on
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