Miracle Healings: When Faith Meets Deception - Escaping NAR - Episode 204 Branham Research Podcast

2 months ago

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Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
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John and Adam discuss healing ministries, faith healing, and the history of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). They examine the intersection of faith, healing, and the doctrines that shape various religious movements. Through personal experiences and extensive research, they highlight the dangers of conflating salvation with physical healing. This approach can create a burden for believers who are struggling with illnesses or challenges, leading to toxic positivity and unhealthy spiritual frameworks. There is particular emphasis on how such teachings can lead to disillusionment and guilt when healing or spiritual experiences do not occur as promised.

The podcast further delves into the historical roots of modern movements, tracing connections from figures like John Alexander Dowie to more recent ministries, including Bethel and IHOP-KC. The hosts discuss the importance of scrutinizing the foundations of these movements, pointing out how some leaders have perpetuated fraudulent or harmful practices. The episode concludes by advocating for a more nuanced, balanced understanding of faith and healing, recognizing the complexities of human experience without resorting to oversimplified or exploitative doctrines.

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Transcript

00:00:00You

00:00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast. I'm

00:00:37your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at

00:00:42william-branham.org. And with me, I have my co host and friend, Adam Short. And together

00:00:48we're examining the New Apostolic Reformation, its history, its many issues, and how to escape.

00:00:55Adam, good to start this today with you as the co host.

00:01:00Awesome. Yes, sir.

00:01:01We've talked so many times over the phone, but I'm trying to piece together the chain

00:01:05of events that led to this. But I think it all started with me finding you in the newspapers

00:01:10talking about the Bethel Healing Rooms, or maybe it was the other healing room ministry.

00:01:16But I realized that you had the information that everyone wants to hear. So I decided,

00:01:23let's put this together and see what we can come up with.

00:01:25Absolutely. Yeah, it's always a pleasure, John, talking to you, whether it's by phone,

00:01:29satellite, paper airplane, or Morse code. I don't think we've tried Morse code yet,

00:01:35but we should try that. But yeah, happy to be here and just continue to be a part of

00:01:40what you're doing and love what you're doing, love your work and your research. And so thanks

00:01:46for having me.

00:01:47Awesome. Well, we were talking, we had a lengthy discussion talking about faith healing. And

00:01:54it's kind of a hot topic, believe it or not, because you've got all the people from the

00:01:58Branna movement who are watching, and they're in a faith healing cult. So their salvation

00:02:03is wrapped around faith healing. And if you leave it, their first question isn't, are

00:02:08you serving Jesus? It's always, well, can you get healed? Because they combine the two,

00:02:13salvation, faith healing. Then on the NAR side, it's turned into the, I don't even know

00:02:19what you call it, but it's like the deliverance healing ministries of the apostles. You have

00:02:25to go to the apostle for your source healing. There's varying levels of this, but all the

00:02:31way down to, and I got my handy book here of the Randy Clark Global Awakening Deliverance

00:02:37Training Manual. And here you can learn how if you have cataracts, it's a specific demon

00:02:45and you have to cast the cataract demon out. There's all kinds of weirdness, but I thought

00:02:51it would be good, because I read you in the newspaper bragging about the healings that

00:02:56were happening in the healing rooms.

00:02:57Darrell Bock Uh-oh. Was I bragging?

00:03:00Scott Cunningham Yeah, a little bit. You were bragging on

00:03:02the healing rooms. But for the specific purpose of this, there are many people, you've probably

00:03:09seen them in the comment rooms. If I expose a fraud faith healer, I get all these people

00:03:15that pounce on me and say, you're against divine healing. Well, no, man, I just exposed

00:03:19a fraud and he was clearly faking it, right? And I get these on the other side. Well, you

00:03:25have brought down our specific – you're making our specific cult of personality key

00:03:30figure look as though he might have had nefarious purposes. And so therefore, you must be against

00:03:37signs and wonders and power evangelism.

00:03:40Darrell Bock So you get it from both sides.

00:03:42Scott Cunningham I get it from all sides.

00:03:43Darrell Bock It's like everybody just comes at John and

00:03:46wants to throw bad comments and attacks and everything else. So yeah, it's like both

00:03:52sides of the coin. And it's interesting. We're so prone, I think, in Western thought

00:04:00to say, is it either or? Is this bad or is it good? But one of the things I'm learning

00:04:08is I continue to peel back the layers, particularly of the history of my journey through various

00:04:15organizations like this, where you've got your own experience, right? Where you've experienced

00:04:21God in a profound way at a personal level, whether it be an encounter, or you hear his

00:04:26voice, or you're just simply reading the Bible and he speaks to you. You've got things

00:04:32like that. Then you have also things that have happened to other people that you've

00:04:35witnessed. And then in a separate category, you have things that have been reported on

00:04:43by third parties, i.e. things that have happened potentially in church services that are then

00:04:48repeated back to you through a testimony of some sort, whether it's written or in a video

00:04:54or just live in a church service. So we have to think through, is it either or or is it

00:05:03both and? And I think a lot of times it's both and, but we're kind of in the process

00:05:10of trying to peel back and discern what is real and what's not. And I can point to things

00:05:18that I've seen with my own two eyes that were legitimately, you know, I could say legitimate

00:05:24manifestations of God's power and God's miraculous intervention. But I also have seen things

00:05:31that were unhealthy and, you know, potentially not even real. So it's a big mix, I think.

00:05:41And I think to your point too, like, when it comes to the man of God, the whole man

00:05:48of God construct, that right there can be very dangerous. And I've seen the danger there

00:05:53where a person continually sets themselves up as the source, you know, come to the man

00:06:01of God for your healing, for your miracle, for your fill in the blank. And the problem

00:06:09becomes lots of things. One of them being the man is your source. And you all of a sudden,

00:06:15if you have faith for a supernatural encounter or healing, you're coming to a person. And

00:06:21I think it's hard to separate, well, if I'm coming to a person, am I not also coming to

00:06:27God? But I think they can shift that focus in a very unhealthy way. And then all of a

00:06:34sudden, you get to a point where you're like, depending on a person now for some type of

00:06:41experience with God, and that obviously is very dangerous and unhealthy.

00:06:45Darrell Bock So add to that another category.

00:06:47Pete Slaughter Okay.

00:06:48Darrell Bock The NAR has by and large claimed ownership

00:06:52of this thing called spiritual warfare. And they date it back to, you know, some of the

00:06:57things that C. Peter Wagner said. But in all truthfulness, it even predates latter rain.

00:07:05The way these guys were talking about, and when I say these guys, I'm referring to the

00:07:09quote-unquote faith healers. The way that the faith healers were able to do what they

00:07:14did as con artists was that by taking it out of the � in the message, we called it the

00:07:22spiritual realm and the natural realm, and I almost said that. But to speak plain English,

00:07:27if you take it out of the real world and put it into a fantasy world, people can't argue

00:07:32against the fantasy, because there's no way that you can prove or disprove the fantasy

00:07:37world.

00:07:38Darrell Bock That's a really good point.

00:07:40Pete Slaughter So what happened is these con artists � there

00:07:44were some really good people in it, and there were some con artists. But the con artist

00:07:48turned it into a spiritual thing, and then any single ailment that you had, whether it

00:07:55was a blood clot that wasn't clotting properly and your blood cell count was down to cancers,

00:08:03to who knows what else, if you broke your arm, it was a spiritual demon attacking you

00:08:08basically. And the point I'm driving at is this. We do � every Friday I do these testimonies

00:08:16from people who have escaped a cult, and you'll notice also in the comment feeds that they

00:08:21attack anything to do with not just their healing, but also their salvation by pouncing

00:08:29on anything that they can find negative about their testimony. So if this is a person who's

00:08:36born again Christian, saved by grace, who has experienced a true walk with Christ, but

00:08:43was in a cult and went through some really dark times and did some really bad things

00:08:47because humans are humans, humans have human problems, what happens is after they leave

00:08:52and they start talking about how their life has changed for the better, you'll find all

00:08:57these cult drones that just attack them and say, �No, you did accept a demon during

00:09:02your dark time, and your salvation isn't real, and therefore whatever suffer � � you

00:09:08know, there are people that are still suffering with different ailments. Let's say you're

00:09:11suffering from this ailment because that spirit got on you before your conversion, and so

00:09:16therefore your conversion is false, your healing is false, and you're doomed to be sick the

00:09:21rest of your life. So you've got all of that mixed in here too, and that's common both

00:09:27NAR, latter rain, and predating latter rain.

00:09:30Yeah, that's, man, I'm so glad you brought up the whole spirit realm versus natural realm

00:09:36because that thinking is very much baked into the circles that I was a part of, you know,

00:09:41including Bethel, IOPKC, and Morningstar, but more I'm thinking of Bethel right now,

00:09:47and it is, if you examine that a little bit more, I think you can probably speak to this

00:09:54better than I can, but I think that some of that thinking has its roots in Gnosticism,

00:10:00where Gnosticism has been around for thousands of years. It was around in biblical times

00:10:07when the New Testament was written. In fact, we have warnings in the New Testament about

00:10:10Gnosticism, and I can't tell you the references right now, but I'm sure somebody can look

00:10:16that up. But the premise is with Gnosticism, and I'm going to get to a point here, the

00:10:26Gnostics claimed that the spiritual realm, the invisible realm, the things that we can't

00:10:32taste, touch, smell, feel, you know, physically here, those things are more holy. Those things

00:10:40are more spiritual. They're on an elevated plane, and anything that you can touch, taste,

00:10:48smell, feel, see, and hear, that is a debased level of reality. And so you had sort of like

00:10:58a bifurcation of the spirit realm versus the physical realm, and that's made its way out

00:11:04into these circles. And unfortunately, it does end up harming people, like you're talking

00:11:12about, because there are explanations given. They're sort of like blanket, stereotypical

00:11:18explanations to your point, where no matter what sickness you have, there's some type

00:11:24of spiritual cause to it. And inevitably, the person that's sick is the one that's responsible,

00:11:31and it's their fault that they have diabetes. It's their fault they have cancer. It's their

00:11:37fault they have cardiovascular problems. But what's ironic is, even though it's their fault,

00:11:45it's oftentimes ascribed to a demon. I will say Bethel was less prone to call things demons.

00:11:53They didn't really focus as much on demons. It was more about, let's focus on what God's

00:12:01doing rather than what the devil's doing. So I will credit them with that. I think that's

00:12:06probably a good thing. But there still is, I think, an undercurrent of the spirit of

00:12:14fill-in-the-blank, you know, that's sort of the enemy here that we've got to find out

00:12:22what the enemy is here, and we've got to cast it out and get it out of here, get it

00:12:28out of the person. And, you know, incidentally, it's not always a demon, and maybe it's not

00:12:36even occasionally a demon. I mean, matter of fact, if you have diabetes, you can improve

00:12:42your blood sugar by eating less carbohydrates, as it turns out. And so regardless of what's

00:12:49going on with the demon world, you know, whatever you believe about that, like the

00:12:54fact of the matter is, if you decide to not eat carbohydrates for 24 hours and then you

00:12:59go get your A1c tested, it's probably going to be in the normal level. You're probably

00:13:04going to be at below level five. So that's like a practical example of like the physical

00:13:11world, how it impacts the physical world. So I don't know, I'm just, I think you make

00:13:18a good point, like with the physical versus the spiritual realms.

00:13:21Darrell Bock Yeah. Well, it's like this. There's not a

00:13:26single faith healer yet that can heal the common cold. They can tell you, go home and

00:13:30in two weeks you'll feel better. But it's always, you know, it has to run its course,

00:13:36and they realize that, you know, there's a lot more going on than just a demon. And the

00:13:42con artists like to use that, because if they can put your mind in that fictional world,

00:13:46then they can't really critically think about you. I have diabetes. I, during the course

00:13:55of doing the podcast that I did with Charles that really started all of this, I was on

00:13:59the, like you said, lower your carbohydrates, you can get your A1c down. I had spent, I

00:14:06can't tell you how long, getting up to the level where I was eating almost no carbs.

00:14:11And I did the fasting, intermittent fasting for, lost 45 pounds in 45 days, and yeah.

00:14:18And my blood sugar tests were normal. So on the last podcast that I did whenever we were

00:14:25driving around, you know, talking about the city, I said I had reversed it. Well, according

00:14:29to my meter, I had reversed it. But I get to the doctor and there's more going on than

00:14:35just what I can see with the little meter. Apparently at night my liver was excreting

00:14:41the, what is it, glycogen, I guess it is, that causes your blood sugar to raise. So

00:14:47that didn't help. But the point I'm driving at with this is there's another negative consequence

00:14:51with this type of religion that other people don't realize. I fought so hard against getting

00:14:59on the little pill that just changes my life for the better. I can take the pill and I

00:15:04can pretty much eat whatever I want. And I still try, you know, I try to diet and do

00:15:09what's right.

00:15:10Yeah, of course.

00:15:11The thing of it is, whenever you're in that mindset, there were years I wouldn't take

00:15:15a Tylenol if I had a headache for years and years and years. And then after the headache

00:15:20run its course, I would say, praise God, the demon that was causing the headache is gone.

00:15:25Well, no, man, that's not how it works. You know?

00:15:29Yeah, no, it's so true. Like, to your point, man, that it's not like that was even a blatant

00:15:36teaching in the circles. I don't remember it being taught, like, don't take medicine,

00:15:40right? Like, I mean, I know in some circles, it's, it's very blatant and out front and

00:15:46in your face, like, if you take medicine, it's a lack of faith. But I think that even

00:15:52still in my mind, like, maybe 5% of that's left. I, you know, I take medication too for

00:16:01certain things. And I actually have no qualms with it other than what I'm thinking about

00:16:05is the side effects of the medication. Like, I'm thinking about, hey, I don't want to damage

00:16:10my body because X, Y and Z side effects. I'm no longer thinking along the lines of, gosh,

00:16:18I have a lack of faith because I'm taking medication. So, but on the flip side, like,

00:16:22I still believe in healing. So like, but I'm not going to not take medication either. Right?

00:16:28Because just because I'm like holding out, I mean, why does it have to be mutually exclusive?

00:16:34Why can't it be both? And why can't you go to the doctor, get a prescription, and manage it

00:16:41through a number of different strategies. But then, by the way, while we're at it, we'll pray

00:16:46for healing. Right? Like, I think that we've gotten so binary and polar or polarized. And

00:16:54that's probably one of the byproducts of these, you know, cult and cultish, heretical teachings

00:17:00is like, you have to throw all of the other natural stuff out. And it's back to the spiritual

00:17:08realm versus the physical. Like, it's got to be either or. But the fact of the matter is,

00:17:13it can be both and. I think. That's just my opinion.

00:17:16Darrell Bock I think so, too. One of the things that I've,

00:17:19the conclusions that I've come to by examining all of these NAR groups is that, like you said,

00:17:24so Bethel, they don't focus on the angels and demons so much. Instead, they focus on what God

00:17:30is doing. What I've learned is that all of these groups really took the model that was created,

00:17:36not even by William Branham, but more so by John Alexander Dowie, the model that combines faith,

00:17:42healing with salvation. And the latter reign just basically tried to recreate

00:17:48Dowieism. The latter reign was Dowieism 2.0. But then when the NAR evolved, they realized that

00:17:55that method of selling religion, that method of selling religion no longer sells as good.

00:18:02Because by and large, the group turned in such a negative, I was around a friend who said that

00:18:08they have so much negative energy flowing around these people you're with, John, I can't even stand

00:18:13to be around them. And years later, I thought back to that conversation, and it's kind of true.

00:18:19They were very focused on the bad, the negative, the demons more than the angels,

00:18:25the negative spirit world. Well, then the NAR comes along, and they flip it upside down,

00:18:30but they flipped it on the same exact foundation. So where the latter reign and pre-latter reign

00:18:38focused on the negative, well, now the NAR focuses on the positive that can only exist

00:18:43because of the negative. So both paths lead to the same conclusion, to have Bethel's form of

00:18:51positive religion. You can predate Bethel. You can go back to power evangelism, all of these other

00:18:57things that led to what we have now. It's built on the same exact foundation, but it cannot exist

00:19:04without the negative that was preached in latter reign. And that's why when I compare these guys,

00:19:10I'm comparing the foundation, what made them become what they are today.

00:19:15Oh, my gosh. And that has been so eye-opening for me, just watching your content there,

00:19:21because we were placed, we just sort of were dropped off, and here you are in the middle of a

00:19:28historical narrative that predates you long before you were even born. And to look at where this stuff

00:19:36came from is honestly staggering. To look, you go back and you look at God's generals, which,

00:19:44I mean, that book was pretty close to the Bible at Bethel, and you didn't hear one iota.

00:19:52We learned all about John Alexander Dowie, John G. Lake, Smith Wigglesworth,

00:19:58Amy Simple MacPherson, Jack Coe, William Branham. We read the William Branham books,

00:20:06the history books. And you got the story that was varnished and polished. You didn't get all

00:20:15the other stuff in there. And even like the stuff you're doing about John Wimber right now,

00:20:20and I'm not as knowledgeable about John Wimber. I mean, I know he had overlap there with Mike

00:20:26Bickle and IUPTC, and Kansas City Vineyard was a part of the vineyard movement there for a while.

00:20:33But the undercurrents and the belief systems that gave birth and spun off these additional

00:20:41movements that we now have, you look at those threads and it is mind-blowing.

00:20:51Go back to the Word of Faith movement, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland. I mean, those guys are

00:20:57even more, I think, steeped in that kind of name it, claim it, even in the movements I've been a

00:21:03part of. But basically what they're teaching is you can have whatever you want along with

00:21:12the fanciest jet known to man. And it's just, it's a name it, claim it slot machine is what it is.

00:21:21It comes down to a slot machine God, a lottery God. And frankly, if you just open up the Bible

00:21:29and read the New Testament, it is a vast contrast to what you're being taught in these movements.

00:21:35It's just, it's like night and day.

00:21:38Yeah. I call it the rabbit's foot God. You rub the God a little bit and he's going to give you

00:21:43a healing, or you rub it and he's going to give you an airplane or whatever it has spun off to.

00:21:50And really for me, that's the bottom line. They've preached a different God. And again,

00:21:56the NAR focuses on the positive, Laterane, Branhamism focus on the negative. It came to

00:22:02the point where I realized there are numerous passages in the Bible that talk about the nature

00:22:07of God. And one of the most common natures of God is a heavenly father who loves the children.

00:22:13And I'm a father. I think of my children when I'm reading those passages. Well, imagine this,

00:22:19I've got kids and when they were younger, we lived quite a ways away from my grandparents and

00:22:28some of my wife's family. And if one were coming to visit, say my grandparent was coming to visit

00:22:34and they told us they were coming and we knew what day they were coming and my kids are there

00:22:39and they're saying, well, I don't know if he's coming. He's not here yet. He was supposed to

00:22:43be here an hour ago. Are you sure he's coming, dad? And there's never a case where I would have

00:22:49told my son, well, you're doubting. I no longer love you. But when you're in these religions,

00:22:55if you don't believe the healing, if you don't believe, you know, if you have any doubt,

00:23:00if you have any question, you, your God suddenly cuts you off. It's a narcissistic God.

00:23:05Dr. Darrell Bock Narcissistic God. Yeah. You took the

00:23:08words right out of my mouth. You're absolutely right. I'm a dad too. And like, of course you

00:23:12wouldn't say that to your kids. Like that's so cruel. And, but we, yeah, we've, I think that

00:23:20these, I don't even want to say we, because we've been indoctrinated by a lot of these teachings,

00:23:26teachings and they, I will say they, these faith healing, you know, superpower men of God

00:23:35and some women of God too. There, there are a few of those in there.

00:23:40But mainly men have created a God in their image. That is actually what's happening. And so the,

00:23:49the projection of God that you hear from them, I think is just a grandiose version of themselves.

00:23:56Like and, and incidentally, it's not just rub the rabbit foot, by the way,

00:24:02it's pull out your checkbook and write me a five figure check, even if, and, oh, by the way,

00:24:10if you don't have any money in your bank account, go into debt, sow a seed into my ministry,

00:24:18because it's going to return to you a hundred fold or a thousand fold or whatever it is.

00:24:22And these, unfortunately, these elderly people who have no money as it is, they're living on

00:24:27a fixed income, social security, and maybe they've got a little bit of investment income.

00:24:33They're going into debt to donate to these guys. And it's, it's, it's so,

00:24:38so evil. It's so wrong. Kenneth Copeland has a net worth of $700 million.

00:24:46Like that's, that's insane. He's a preacher. $700 million. Like in what universe is that? Okay.

00:24:54And he's the guy that's saying, write me the checks. You know, I saw a clip of him recently

00:25:01where he's going on and on about his $10,000 watches. And they're probably more than $10,000

00:25:08now. I think this was many years ago, but like what, in what world does that make any sense?

00:25:14If you compare that to Jesus, Jesus is hanging out with poor people. He's hanging out with destitute.

00:25:19You know, he's calling the religious leaders of the day broods of vipers. And by the way,

00:25:25if you look at what that actually means in today's language, I'm not going to repeat what it means.

00:25:29It's pretty bad. Jesus actually cussed by the way. Yeah. So these, these are the phrases brood

00:25:36of vipers. Uh, what's that's another one. That's the one that comes to mind. There are a few others

00:25:41in there, but if you've looked that up, it's actually they're expletives. So, you know,

00:25:47Jesus, we're, we're told Jesus is meek and mild, but I got news for you, man. He cussed people out.

00:25:53I study everything. And I'm a little embarrassed to say this, but one of the,

00:25:58one of the pathways that I took after leaving the cult, see, we weren't allowed to even think

00:26:02a cuss word or spiritual warfare, the demons in you, the demon get in your head and then you

00:26:06can't get healed all this stuff. Right? Well, I got to thinking about, cause in the it world,

00:26:12you can be in a business meeting and the CEO will come down and he'll motivate you by using

00:26:17a cuss word. And it's, it's not like he's cussing at you or offending you, but he uses the word and

00:26:24come on, let's, let's buckle the H up and let's go. Right. You know, and, but we were taught that

00:26:31it was so evil. And so I did just a study on cuss words and you go back and you look at Martin

00:26:37Luther when he started the Protestant Reformation. It wasn't back then, it wasn't really so taboo.

00:26:44It wasn't until it came into American Christianity that it was. And so then I went a step further

00:26:50and I started studying, like you said, the phraseology in the Bible. And suddenly I stumbled

00:26:56across Ezekiel 2320, where God is scolding Jerusalem and says that you lusted after your

00:27:03lovers who were hung like horses and sprayed like donkeys or something to that effect. And man,

00:27:09that was, that was cuss word in its essence. That was, but motivating them to change their ways.

00:27:15Basically. Interesting. I had not heard that, or I didn't know that about Ezekiel,

00:27:19but that makes sense. Like you bunch of, you load a donkey, donkey Kong, like modern language.

00:27:28I mean, like we'll translate it in English and we'll, well, it sounds so pious and spiritual,

00:27:33like you brood of vipers, you know, in the, in the Morgan Freeman boy voice. You know,

00:27:38if you had a Bible in the, in the voice of Morgan Freeman, we all listen to Morgan Freeman. We're

00:27:42like, Oh my gosh, that's what God sounds like. And I mean, I think he has probably the best God voice

00:27:49I've ever heard. But like you brood of vipers, you know, and, but no, like,

00:27:57but no, like 500 years from now, somebody is going to look at modern American English and

00:28:01they're going to look at our expletive and say, Oh, look, look at what a nice phrase they called

00:28:05people back then. And by then they're probably calling people like scaly alligators or something,

00:28:11which means absolutely nothing to us. So it's just, it's, it's, it's just an example of how

00:28:16language evolves. But I'm not even sure how we got on this point, but it related back to,

00:28:23um, I think the difference between like the God and the Bible and the version of God that we're

00:28:31told exists, you know, from these faith healers. Yeah. Well, the funny part for me is it was full

00:28:37circle. So when I went down the tangent of studying language and how it changed over time and

00:28:42how it differs from the ancient world, et cetera, even at, you know, three, 300 years ago, Christianity

00:28:48was different. Well, it got me to thinking again about the foundation that was laid, which was

00:28:54entirely false. You, it was asceticism. You don't cuss because if you do, you're going to hell.

00:29:01And you mentioned Gnostics earlier. Well, there were Gnostic groups that they believed that they

00:29:06could save themselves by being ascetic, by denying themselves certain things. And one group went to

00:29:12the extreme that they said, anybody who has sex, they're committing the ultimate sin of the world

00:29:19and will never make the rapture. We'll never have rapturing faith as long as you guys are having

00:29:24sex. And that entire cult died out because you don't have any, there's no reproduction without

00:29:29the sex. So it took me down those paths, but I came full circle back because the way in which

00:29:38they presented the God was so powerless that if you were to cuss, back to the child example,

00:29:47if my son were to say, Dad, I hate you. Well, what teenager hasn't said that to their dad, man?

00:29:53Dr. Darrell Bock Yeah.

00:29:53Dr. Matthew Smith They come home from school. You hear it all the time. Even watching the

00:29:56television programs, you see kids do that, and then they make up, they reconcile, they get back

00:30:01with God or get back with the father. Well, a father is not going to stop loving the child

00:30:07because the child says something out of anger, out of emotion. But we did, and the cussing tied

00:30:16to the salvation, the salvation tied to the healing, and it just came back full circle until

00:30:22I realized this entire foundation that all of this stuff is built on is completely false.

00:30:27Dr. Darrell Bock Have you ever wondered how the

00:30:29Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the

00:30:35latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:30:41You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

00:30:46william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of

00:30:52John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the

00:30:59paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation

00:31:05on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause,

00:31:11you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,

00:31:17be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

00:31:22On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:31:27Just the practice of healing, I think, it can become this notch on the belt.

00:31:36And it becomes, I feel like at Bethel, like we got so deep into it, and I saw a lot of healings

00:31:45happen, but it became a thing where the focus was taken off of God. And the goodness of God

00:31:52was so preached. And which is, there's nothing wrong with that, but like when the focus becomes

00:31:59the person praying for healing, right? Like one more testimony in the bag, so to speak.

00:32:05Like that's not even the point. That's not the point. And at the end of the day,

00:32:11the gospel is here to save people. And in the process, oh yeah, by the way, you might get

00:32:17healed too. Like the central focus isn't healing. I think that healing has taken the forefront in a

00:32:23lot of these movements, kind of like prayer took the forefront in IUPKC. It's just one of the

00:32:30fixtures of the movement, the main fixture, I guess. And so, but one of the things that occurred to me,

00:32:37you know, post Bethel was, how many times in the Bible, specifically the New Testament and the

00:32:43gospels, did you see the people that prayed for healing, like the disciples, when they went to go

00:32:49pray for healing or do miracles, did you hear them going around telling the story or was it the person

00:32:57that got healed that told the story? So that kind of was a light bulb for me because it's like,

00:33:04that was so preached at Bethel that when you have a testimony to share, we're going to get up on the

00:33:10stage, we're going to share the testimony, and I did that myself. I was in the newspaper

00:33:16talking about it. But I think the biblical model is the person that got healed, the person

00:33:24that experienced this is the one that should tell the story, right? I mean, not to say that you can't

00:33:30share with somebody if you prayed for somebody and they got healed. I think what I'm trying to say is

00:33:34the focus, it's just the focus has really been put on the person doing the healing, which is really

00:33:40a fruit and byproduct of, I think, some of these faith healers you've pointed out. It's like the

00:33:47man of God model, right? Or even the power evangelist model, where it's all about you.

00:33:54You've got the goods, you've got the power, you've got the supernatural to bring to a person.

00:34:00I'm glad you brought that up because I've been trying to find a good way in a podcast to

00:34:06illustrate exactly what you're saying because, like you mentioned earlier, John Wember has turned

00:34:12into this hot topic through the comment threads, everybody seeing that I dislike some of the

00:34:20framework. It's not that I dislike the man. He was probably a good guy for all I know, but

00:34:24power evangelism, a lot of people don't realize that is nothing new with John Wember.

00:34:30Again, the NAR took the positive, but to have the positive, you must have the negative,

00:34:36and Latter Rain had the negative. It'll come out soon, probably before this airs, but I'm

00:34:42doing a deep dive in Chuck Smith, and when you see the Latter Rain connections to Smith and Wember

00:34:48and all of these guys in that Jesus movement, it's kind of eye-opening. But the power evangelism

00:34:54framework itself, I have a huge problem with, and I'm going to try to articulate my thoughts

00:35:02as best as possible. Darrell Bock

00:35:03Yeah, I'm dying to hear this. This is going to be good. I already know.

00:35:06Reg Grant Yeah, where I don't offend people

00:35:08because there's a lot of people that they have been sold this bill of goods and hook, line,

00:35:14and sinker. They believe it, and if you question the framework, suddenly it's an us versus them

00:35:21in the same way that any destructive cult will fight back. It's us versus them. It's not that

00:35:26I don't believe in the concept of power evangelism. If you have an evangelist who is truly working

00:35:34for God, and God does heal people, according to the Bible, when there's a healing, that,

00:35:40in my opinion, that is power evangelism. It's somebody who puts the focus on God,

00:35:46has an individual who's seeking God, and the evangelist is simply making the connection

00:35:51between the person and the God. Darrell Bock

00:35:53A hundred percent. Reg Grant

00:35:54Yeah, there's no triangle. What these power evangelist models, they like the triangle.

00:35:59They like God and me, the power evangelist, and you, the individual. So there's this triad.

00:36:04Darrell Bock Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

00:36:06Reg Grant The real problem is that because this

00:36:10model was created in this way, the people begin to look at the religion exactly like they did in

00:36:18Branhamism, Latter Rain, where their spiritual personality and, to some extent, the salvation

00:36:26is wrapped up in that same model. So there's that same triad. That's why people, I think,

00:36:32defend Wimber so heavily. You have to have the evangelist to have the power evangelism.

00:36:37That's what connects you to God, and here's the people seeing the signs and wonders.

00:36:42But in that model, you're defying several passages of the Bible that warn you, like,

00:36:49an evil and adulterous people seek after a sign. That's a Bible verse. If you take power evangelism

00:36:58only, then you're denying that verse because you've got people who are associating their

00:37:03salvation with the signs and wonders miracle, exactly what was happening in Latter Rain.

00:37:09But what about the person who comes to these things, could really care less about the person

00:37:15on the platform, realizes that the person on the platform is full of this hype, but they're a true

00:37:21Christian, and they realize that other Christians are in the building, and they come because where

00:37:26two or three are gathered in my name, there will I be. And they come in that aspect of the

00:37:33Christian faith instead of the power evangelist who is connecting you to God. I actually see more

00:37:39of a Christian in that person than I do the people who are looking for the signs and wonders and

00:37:46miracles because of one single thing that is overlooked in these power evangelist models.

00:37:53If you actually read the Bible, which I have several times, many Christians unfortunately

00:37:59have never read it. If you read it, you're going to find example after example after example of

00:38:05people who didn't get healed. And were they not Christian? Were they not following God?

00:38:12No, that's not the case, but they did not get healed. And so if you're in that model and you're

00:38:17thinking it's always good all the time and there's doing the stuff is going to affect your

00:38:23life, well, what if it doesn't? What if it doesn't? That is the existential question,

00:38:30and it dovetails with this, the inability to face reality, the inability to face grief,

00:38:36the inability to face loss. And so what happens when your spouse dies of cancer?

00:38:42And it was an absolute shock to the Bethel ecosystem when Benny passed away, Bill's

00:38:52wife. She was a huge figure at Bethel, an amazing person. And the fact is she did not get healed,

00:39:03and that is horrible. It's horrible. It's a huge loss. And there has to be a human grieving process.

00:39:17Everybody doesn't get healed. And the Bethel answer to that is it's because the fullness

00:39:22of the kingdom has not yet been released in the earth, and it needs to be. And that's our job,

00:39:27to bring kingdom now. And I know you're diving into that with the Wimber stuff,

00:39:33but the fact of the matter is, let's play out that conclusion. Let's say, just for sake

00:39:41of argument, let's say that we could get everybody healed. We could right every wrong. We could

00:39:48prevent hurricanes from flooding thousands of people like we're looking at right now

00:39:53just in our backyard. Well, okay. Well, what about all of the book of Revelation, which predicts

00:40:03absolute catastrophe and just unbelievable judgment? And I mean, what do you do? I mean,

00:40:10it says that there's going to be a new heaven and a new earth, and that the current earth

00:40:15will pass away. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my word will never pass away.

00:40:20So, if everybody gets raised from the dead, I mean, just thinking about that for a second,

00:40:25it's kind of freaky. Like, if everybody gets raised from the dead right now, what are you

00:40:30going to do about the resurrection from the dead that is prophesied in the Bible? I mean,

00:40:36there's just gaps in how that stuff would play out in reality. And meanwhile, the people that

00:40:42experience the loss are left for dead, and they don't know what to do with their grief. And that

00:40:48is probably one of the biggest weaknesses of Bethel is you're focusing on what God's doing

00:40:52all the time, but the people that actually lost stuff where things did not go as planned, and

00:40:59whether it's sickness or some other tragedy, those people are, it's like there's not a spot for that

00:41:06to happen. There's not a spot for that to be processed. And that, unfortunately, that is what

00:41:12is causing a lot of the harm in people that have left these movements.

00:41:18Darrell Bock And unfortunately, it rewrites

00:41:20huge portions of Bible text, which, again, there are many Christians who've never read the Bible,

00:41:27and so when these quote-unquote power evangelists are doing this kind of thing,

00:41:32they don't recognize it because they've not actually read the book that is being referenced.

00:41:36But one of the things that these guys go to, and this was also common in the Branham movements,

00:41:43but they would refer to the Book of Job and focus in heavily overemphasizing the restoration of

00:41:50everything that Job had lost, which if you� Darrell Bock

00:41:55Yeah, Bethel did that, too. Darrell Bock

00:41:56Yeah. So if you emphasize that one little part of that entire book,

00:42:01you have totally missed the point of the Book of Job, where a man is being so faithful to God,

00:42:07even though he's going through all kinds of trials, more than any human should.

00:42:13The entire subject matter of that book is that you can have a connection to God while you're

00:42:18suffering, but because one little passage at the end has the restoration, they say,

00:42:24�And see, you, too, if you go through trials, you're going to be restored.�

00:42:28Well, what about the times when you're not? And I've seen this firsthand. I had a family

00:42:34member just pass who they were suffering their entire life, and they were wrapped up in this

00:42:42thing that they believed that they had done something wrong, and they don't know what

00:42:45because they have an illness that just continued the rest of their life. It was dehabilitating.

00:42:52But they were wrapped up in that model where they thought that they could be cured,

00:42:56and it was an incurable issue. And so the problem is it gave them false hope that never came.

00:43:04So their life gets worse and worse and worse up until the point of death. Then every family

00:43:09member, they're suddenly experiencing, �Wait a minute. There's something wrong here because

00:43:15this person never got any better.� I've seen it multiple times with multiple people, and

00:43:23the problem is that it makes the people who do have a certain condition feel inferior.

00:43:29And I don't believe that God would want a Christian to feel inferior because they're

00:43:33going through some sort of a trial. Dr. Darrell Bock

00:43:35Yeah. Well, there's even an example of that in Jesus's – in the Gospels, right, where

00:43:43somebody asks, �Well, who was it that sinned? Was it this man who sinned or his parents or

00:43:50you know what I'm talking about in the Bible there?� And Jesus's answer, and I'm paraphrasing

00:43:55all this and probably botching it up in the process, but he's basically like, it was neither

00:44:02their sin nor his sin, but so that the glory of God would be revealed. And I mean, that person did

00:44:08get healed. Jesus did heal that person. But the point being, it wasn't their fault. They weren't

00:44:15sick because of their sin. And that's been ultra-pushed for years, that your sin is your

00:44:24reason for your sickness. And yeah, people end up – and that's so sad. Like with your family

00:44:29member, you end up – they ended up, it sounds like, to the end of their life, believing it

00:44:34was their fault. And that is just – oh, gosh, that's just so painful, so hard.

00:44:40It is. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so hard against the framework that has created all

00:44:47of this is because I've seen the suffering. And as humans, we go through things. There are things

00:44:53that happen in our lives that can cause us grief and suffering and sorrow. But the problem is

00:45:01whenever the framework of what they're calling Christianity, when that framework itself also

00:45:06causes suffering on top of the suffering, now you've got this layer of burden on your shoulders

00:45:12that you didn't even have to have in the first place. So you go through life with this extra

00:45:15burden. And I don't care how you spin it. In the NAR, you can take away all of the negative and

00:45:23focus on the positive. We've still got the same framework. So you still are left with people who

00:45:29they're suffering and they don't need to. Yeah. Well, there's a term for this,

00:45:34and it's called toxic positivity. And it actually is a thing in the mental health space.

00:45:40You can ask therapists and they'll tell you that toxic positivity is actually a – and I don't know

00:45:47what category this fits in, but it's a reality that people wrestle with when they're in these

00:45:53kinds of movements, cultish movements. And it's like this, no matter what, I've got to have this

00:46:03positive. It's thought-stopping, right? Some of this is thought-stopping. And Stephen Hassan

00:46:08talks about this as one of the characteristics of a cult is thought-stopping practices. And so

00:46:14I can't have one possible negative thought in my head. And you know what actually that is?

00:46:22It's denial. It is 100% denial. You can actually be honest with yourself about the circumstances

00:46:30you're going in and – or that you're going through and simultaneously have faith. But see,

00:46:36those two things have been made to be mutually exclusive. And it's highly damaging. It's highly

00:46:44damaging. It causes incredible damage to a person's mental health. And then to your point,

00:46:51they end up living in a situation where not only is it the initial sickness or

00:46:58hard thing they're going through, but it's also the burden of trying to maintain that toxic

00:47:03positivity. And frankly, a lot of people burn out from that. And they end up – they actually end up

00:47:08having more health problems as a result because their actual nervous system is overloaded.

00:47:14And that is actually – that's been researched and documented by the mental health and the

00:47:22psychologists and the people that study the nervous system. That kind of stuff has been

00:47:25documented. Dr. Darrell Bock

00:47:27Yeah. I'm no psychologist. I am fascinated by it. But for me, it appears –

00:47:31Dr. Matthew Sinclair Neither am I.

00:47:32Dr. Darrell Bock Yeah. For me, and I hope to have

00:47:35one on soon, hopefully. But for me, it borders on disassociation. And because if you really think

00:47:42about it, when you're in that state of denial and you're in that state of toxic positive lifestyle,

00:47:49what it is, you are completely ignoring the negative that exists. Like you said, you're in

00:47:54denial. But more to the point, you're trying to pretend that the negative isn't a reality for you

00:48:01when it is. And so it's creating an alternate reality in your head. And the real problem with

00:48:07this kind of thing is people who suffer with this – I can say this from experience even though I'm

00:48:12not a psychologist. Many people who leave these groups and they tell me what is going on with

00:48:18them, when they leave that toxic positive effect, suddenly they go through battles where they feel

00:48:27all of the effects of disassociative disorder such as they're in this fog, this mental fog.

00:48:34Life doesn't seem real. It feels like they're watching a movie of themselves. They're like

00:48:38outside of their body looking in because they're disassociated. They're not connected with reality.

00:48:44And again, you go back to that framework, the framework of religion that created the

00:48:50power of evangelism, that created latter rain, enabled Dowie to make millions of dollars.

00:48:55That framework creates this toxic environment where you are hurting yourself needlessly

00:49:04to claim a false religion. Dr. Darrell Bock

00:49:06Yeah, you're gaslighting yourself. Like if you're standing in the prayer line,

00:49:09the man of God is praying for you, or even if it's just the prayer team.

00:49:18And this is the part that I'm still trying to work out, where biblically there is precedent

00:49:25for incremental healing. You saw that with the man who was blind. Jesus was healing him.

00:49:35And initially he said, well, I can see it's like trees walking, I think. It's like he could see

00:49:45shadows or his vision wasn't completely healed yet. That's my point. So there's incremental

00:49:50healing. So that is a thing in the Bible. However, I think that where it's been hijacked is you're

00:49:56standing in the prayer line. You're the person coming up here getting healed or wanting to get

00:50:00healed. The person praying for you is asking for feedback. And you've talked about where this

00:50:06practice came from. They're asking for feedback. Level one to 10, what's your pain now? We started

00:50:14at eight, now you're at six. These are the kinds of things that we would do on the prayer line.

00:50:20Test out your elbow. Could you do that before? No, I couldn't. Okay, great. We're getting

00:50:25measures of healing. Is some of that legitimate? I think so. But then I think also it's exploited

00:50:30and hijacked too, particularly from like a psychosomatic standpoint where you can sort of

00:50:39be talked into it sometimes, right? Where even physical pain can lessen. I mean, that's just

00:50:45the power of the brain. What we think about can radiate out to through our nervous system and

00:50:51stuff. So anyway, I make the point that the incremental healing is a thing in the Bible,

00:50:55but I think also there's a mixture in there where some of it is sort of exploited and

00:51:03sort of hard left turn hijacked, if you will. And like everything we've talked about, it's more

00:51:10complex than even just those two sides. You've got people who are entering the prayer line and

00:51:16their heart rate gets up because there's this fear of approaching the healer, right? Or anxiety,

00:51:23I guess. Anxiety is probably a better term. So you get your heart rate up, and then you're in

00:51:29an altered mental state because your mind is focused on the healer as though the healer has

00:51:34connected you to God. And so when he does the thing with moving your arm, the pain that you

00:51:39might have recognized before, well, your mind has disassociated from your internal feelings

00:51:46because you're in this altered mental state. So even that can be somewhat explained by the

00:51:55psychiatry of it. But that's not to say that God isn't doing the healing. I'm not saying that at

00:52:01all. It's just that in many cases there are also other explanations as to what's going on.

00:52:07I think another example of that is if you think about the adrenaline,

00:52:11the function of the adrenal glands in the body, right? So for example, let's say immediately

00:52:18we, you know, in my office here, in your office there, you had a herd of bears come through your

00:52:24back door. You know, all of a sudden I'm seeing bears come through your door back there and you're

00:52:28like, oh my gosh, bears are coming in. I mean, regardless of what state of mind you're in at

00:52:33that point, whether you've got pain in your body or whether you've got a headache or your nose is

00:52:38running or, you know what I mean? Like you're going to go full on like fight or flight mode,

00:52:44right? And so you're going to do whatever it takes, you know, turn yourself around and

00:52:48wrestle those bears to the ground and get them out of there or whatever you do to fight bears off.

00:52:54But, and then in the meantime, all of your symptoms that you've had are probably going to

00:52:57go to the back burner for a minute, right? Because that's just how the body's created to work. Like

00:53:02your adrenal glands are taking charge. You're like, you're there to protect yourself. And so,

00:53:09but incidentally, when the, once the bears leave, your pain might come back.

00:53:15And even more, you reminded me of the Ray Stevens song,

00:53:18drawing a blank on the name of it, but he says, somebody shouts out that,

00:53:22that room don't have a door in it. And he said, it will have in a minute.

00:53:26That's, that's how I'd be with the, with the bears coming in. But I think the bottom line for me,

00:53:31if I were to try to sum this episode up, is that just because I disagree with the framework

00:53:38and all of the critical example that I've put out with all of the different people who are

00:53:43definitely con artists, many of them are, I've also tied it to people who I don't like Wimber.

00:53:49I don't see him as a con artist. He's not from anything that I can tell. It just seems like a

00:53:54good guy who got mixed in with the wrong crowd. Those, those people can get steered in directions

00:54:02that they wouldn't have otherwise went. And I, I see the framework as the cause of that too.

00:54:08Like I see his connection to what, to Paul Cain and all these guys. If you look at what happened,

00:54:14there's a reason why all that happened. And it ties into that model. Had he not been introduced

00:54:19to this very, very bad thing that was called Christianity, the framework that enabled all of

00:54:25this, I think it would have been entirely something different. And so I, you know, I've,

00:54:31I've never really been against healing by per se, by God. I even had my own father went to these

00:54:38healing lines with William Branham and he had rheumatic fever. He, I can't remember how long

00:54:44that he had. They said he would live, but it wasn't long. And he went through the healing

00:54:50lines. He was prayed for. And then according to my grandfather, he won the physical fitness award

00:54:56in his high school the next year. So his body was near death and then, you know, recovered now.

00:55:03Are there other explanations for that? Maybe, but I can only go on my grandfather's word.

00:55:08I wasn't there, but I have no reason not to believe it is what I'm saying. But I also strongly feel

00:55:14that the man on the platform had 0% to do with that. Well, yeah. And that's the critical point

00:55:20I think we're making is it's like you combine thought like mind control, you combine money,

00:55:28you put money in the mix and money just makes things all the more heightened. And, you know,

00:55:34people that might start out well, you know, they get, they start making a lot of money doing this,

00:55:39like, oh, this ain't so bad. You know, like I can go hold these meetings and all these tent

00:55:43revivals and this, that and the other and make bank in the process. So unfortunately, you know,

00:55:51and this is probably a little bit of Bethel speaking through me, they started well, but ended

00:55:54bad. But I know what you have revealed is that they actually started bad. Like some of these guys,

00:56:00a lot of these guys, they came in the door and they already had the grift going from day one.

00:56:05And that's the part of the story that frankly needs to get out there. People need to know the

00:56:10full truth. They need to know what actually happened that John G Lake, you know, there's

00:56:16documented evidence. I think of that he was involved in a criminal or some type of criminal

00:56:22activity there. Right. Am I getting that right? There was a, he was involved with multiple things,

00:56:27but the most, the most covered up for me has been the paramite murders. He was a

00:56:33leader in the paramite sect and Dowey's religion. And he was in Dowey's compound of Zion,

00:56:39Charles Fox Parham comes there and they started spiritual warfare. They started exercising people,

00:56:45exorcisms with people to the extent they were killing multiple people with their exorcisms.

00:56:51And Lake was involved with that before all of the fraud scams. And I think it was called blue sky

00:56:58fraud that he had committed where he swindled his own church. Yeah. Securities fraud. These were not

00:57:04good people. And for me, the reason why I published the negative and I get asked this all the time,

00:57:10why didn't you tell the good part of this person? Well, it's a balance scale, man. If you are,

00:57:16I can't remember the phrase that you use the, the, the toxic positive positive. Yeah. So if

00:57:24you're focused on that with any of these gods generals, you're so positive that you ignore all

00:57:30of the critical what, what happens if the negative of these guys so far outweighs the positive that

00:57:37they're clearly con artists. And that's what I'm finding with a lot of them.

00:57:41Yeah. And like, at the end of the day, you have to evaluate this stuff through the Bible, right?

00:57:44So you will know a tree bites fruit. And if this is the kind of stuff, I mean, everybody makes

00:57:51mistakes. None of us are perfect, but if, if you are doing stuff like what you talked about,

00:57:55John G. Lake covering up murders and whatnot, like that's fricking, that's bad. That's real.

00:58:00That's not just bad. That's a true that's horrific. And so how, how can you possibly just

00:58:07say, well, you know, I think the good outweighs the bad. It's like, no, I think we probably have

00:58:11to go ahead and throw all of that out because like, does Jesus actually asked the question,

00:58:18does bad fruit come from a good tree? Something to that effect. I'm probably getting that wrong,

00:58:23but it's in the Bible. And so you have to evaluate these people. I think that's the

00:58:28point you're making. And it turns out that a lot of these guys were evil.

00:58:34Yeah. A lot of these guys were evil and some of them, you know, no matter if they've made it to

00:58:40my website or not, I'm putting them there so that I can map all of this out. So some of these guys

00:58:45were good people. They really were, but they were mixed in with some bad things. And I think for me,

00:58:51understanding that nothing is really black or white, back to the example of the people who

00:58:57are giving testimonies on the website, you can't deny that they had a salvation experience just

00:59:04because you disagree with what they believe currently on faith healing or whether they

00:59:09believe in the central figure of your group or not. You can't, you didn't walk in their shoes.

00:59:14You know, you don't know what, what they went through. And for me, if you have to fight to

00:59:19that level to try to uphold it, then there's probably something wrong and probably need to

00:59:24get out of that. Yes. Yes. But anyway, this was great fun. Thanks for doing it with me. And

00:59:30I look forward to the next one. Absolutely. John, thank you. Great to be here. Appreciate it.

00:59:35Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information,

00:59:38you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org for more about the dark

00:59:43side of the new epistolic reformation read weaponize religion from Christian identity

00:59:48to the NAR available on Amazon, Kindle, and soon audible.

Miracle Healings: When Faith Meets Deception - Escaping NAR - Episode 204 Branham Research Podcast

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