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00:00:00They say, the harder the work, the greater the reward.
00:00:18This is our life's work.
00:00:21Good morning.
00:00:23It is 915 Wednesday, February 23rd.
00:00:28This is the TDN Writer's Room presented by Keeneland.
00:00:30My name is Joe Bianca.
00:00:31I'm the Associate Editor of the Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:00:34And nothing snarky today, it's 65 degrees in New York City, so I'm in a great mood.
00:00:39Let's do it.
00:00:40Hi, I'm Bill Finley, a Correspondent for the Thoroughbred Daily News, and in light of what
00:00:44Joe just said, yeah, you know, let's just all be happy because, you know, that's the
00:00:49theme of the day, all right?
00:00:50Beautiful day here.
00:00:51That will be the theme of the day.
00:00:52Jonathan Green, General Manager at DJ Stable, and I'm happy because of the recent ruling,
00:00:57my horse, Helium, has now moved up to 7th place in the Kentucky Derby.
00:01:01So I can honestly say that I had a horse that finished 7th in the Kentucky Derby.
00:01:05Nothing beats that, guys.
00:01:06You could probably stand him somewhere now.
00:01:08I probably could, but if we didn't gel them, we probably could have stood him somewhere.
00:01:13But, you know, sons of Ironicus, I mean, you'd be amazed at how many people were excited,
00:01:17but they all said he had to have finished 7th or better in the Kentucky Derby.
00:01:208th just doesn't do it for our breeders.
00:01:22You got to wait.
00:01:23You always got to wait to gel, Jon, until the last possible second.
00:01:27The TDN Riders Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:01:29Mark your calendars for the April Horses of Racing Age sale after the races on closing
00:01:33day of the Spring Meet, which is Friday, April 29th.
00:01:36Entries open Tuesday, March 1st.
00:01:39So a huge news week, lots to talk about.
00:01:42The biggest news of the week obviously came out Monday when we finally saw the white smoke
00:01:47from the conclave of the KHRC.
00:01:50They had finally made a decision on the Kentucky Derby of 2021.
00:01:55The Dina Spirit, as we anticipated, will be disqualified or has been disqualified
00:01:59due to his betamethasone positive.
00:02:02Bob Baffert has also been suspended 90 days by the KHRC, which I don't think we were necessarily
00:02:08expecting.
00:02:09So, you know, I expect Bob Baffert and his lawyers to sue right away.
00:02:13That's kind of how this goes.
00:02:14Like, God forbid you ever just take it on the chin and be like, I broke a rule.
00:02:18Let's just move on.
00:02:19But he's got an interest in getting his horses into the Derby in the next couple of months.
00:02:25So I think that's going to be a big part of it.
00:02:27What do you guys think?
00:02:28What's your read on the suspension and the decision and what's next?
00:02:33Joe, nothing that was really unexpected here.
00:02:36I mean, I don't think most people, and if I don't speak for the three of us, let me
00:02:41know, thought that anything would happen other than the horse would be taken down by the
00:02:46Kentucky Horse Racing Commission and the stewards.
00:02:49The 90-day suspension of Baffert, I didn't necessarily see that coming.
00:02:52But then if you look in the rules, they have a sliding scale for each offense.
00:02:57It starts and it goes like zero to 10, 10 to whatever.
00:03:01And they recorded this as Baffert's fourth drug offense within the last 365 days, which
00:03:07is what came up with the 90-day penalty.
00:03:09But you know, all that really was accomplished this week is we got through a step so that
00:03:13we can move on to the next step.
00:03:16And then after that, we're going to move on to the next step and then the next step, etc.
00:03:20Obviously, they've already said they're going to appeal this, the Baffert camp.
00:03:24They're going to take it to an administrative law judge, which and later on in the show,
00:03:30we have a terrific interview with an attorney who's going to explain a lot of the minutia
00:03:36of this and how it works.
00:03:38But you know, this thing, it's funny, I'm going to back up, Churchill Downs couldn't
00:03:43rip down that Kentucky Derby sign fast enough.
00:03:49I mean, they yanked that down, put a mandolin up there.
00:03:52So, you know, they didn't say anything to the effect, but their actions spoke louder
00:03:56than words.
00:03:57But you know what?
00:03:59This is going to last a long time.
00:04:01I looked up what happened with Dancer's Image.
00:04:04The only other time this has ever happened in the history of the Kentucky Derby.
00:04:06It took about four years for this to be decided.
00:04:09So buckle in, buckle up.
00:04:11It's going to be a long, bumpy, sometimes mind numbing, you want to scream ride, but
00:04:18nothing of any real, I think anything earth shattering.
00:04:23The suspension even of itself will keep Baffert out of all three Triple Crown races.
00:04:28But he's going to obviously get a stay of that.
00:04:30And you know, whether or not Churchill and Naira will let him run is another matter.
00:04:35And guys, I think one of the things that is a takeaway for me about this whole process
00:04:40is A, they threw the book at him.
00:04:42They gave him a 90 day suspension, which was the maximum number of days that they could
00:04:46give him.
00:04:47$7,500 fee, it's nominal in the grand scheme of things.
00:04:51But it was the days, it's the days that he's going to have to sit out of racing.
00:04:56And that he may have to have the horses, you know, out of the barn without his signage
00:05:02and without under his watch, based on the fact that it is that long of a window of a
00:05:08period of time where he has to be out.
00:05:10And I think the other takeaway from this is that the three of us will speak to people,
00:05:15you know, when we speak to people outside the business, inside the industry, and even
00:05:18amongst ourselves, you know, pre and during the show, one thing that we've been very consistent
00:05:22about and that is none of us feel that Medina Spirit had anything that helped his performance.
00:05:28It wasn't a matter of, you know, whether it was a cream or an injector, it didn't matter.
00:05:32That's not why he hit the wire first in Kentucky Derby.
00:05:35Yeah.
00:05:36And, you know, I honestly think that this was, this was actually the right 100% the
00:05:39right decision.
00:05:40I, you know, in terms of the DQ, in terms of the suspension, I think that's about, you
00:05:43know, as much as, as hard as they could have gotten him.
00:05:46One problem is it took nine and a half months, almost 10 months to get to this point.
00:05:50Like that was the issue.
00:05:51Now we'll see like the KHRC released like a statement in the past couple of weeks talking
00:05:55about they're dedicated to more transparency going forward.
00:05:58I hope so, man, because this was not a good look that this took this long, but at the
00:06:02end of the day, they, they, they came to the right decision is Medina Spirit is now the
00:06:07third horse to ever get DQ'd from a Derby win.
00:06:10Bill mentioned Dancer's Image before it was the other one from a drug positive.
00:06:13And of course, a couple of years ago, maximum security for the interference.
00:06:16But yeah, I just, you know, this is, again, I just wish everyone would just take it on
00:06:22the chin one time and be like, all right, I'll go away for 90 days and I'll come back.
00:06:26Like, it's not like you're going to lose all your owners.
00:06:29If the Derby thing isn't going to do it, 90 days isn't going to do it either.
00:06:32And it's just, you know, it's just obviously endless litigation to come from all of these
00:06:37things.
00:06:38But I think it really puts the squeeze on him in terms of getting into the Derby.
00:06:41I read the transcript of you guys interview with our guests.
00:06:45And one of the interesting things that he said was that that time, it's kind of a time
00:06:49crunch now for Bob Baffert and his owners to try to get into the Derby.
00:06:53And he's surprised that there hasn't been any formal lawsuit put forth by Craig Robinson
00:06:59or anybody against Churchill Downs.
00:07:00So I don't know.
00:07:01I just think this puts the screws to him a lot more now that it's a regulatory suspension.
00:07:06It's not just an individual corporation making a decision.
00:07:10He's suspended in the state of Kentucky.
00:07:13So I don't know.
00:07:14It seems to me like this is going to come to a head very soon in terms of getting horses
00:07:17into the Derby.
00:07:19The TDN Writers Room was brought to you by Keeneland.
00:07:21We mentioned earlier that the Keeneland April sale returns April 29th and entries open starting
00:07:26next Tuesday, March 1st.
00:07:28Also, the Keeneland Spring Meet returns April 8th through the 29th.
00:07:31New Keeneland Select accounts that wager $300 in the first 30 days earn $100 back with their
00:07:37signup bonus.
00:07:38Visit KeenelandSelect.com to sign up.
00:07:41We might have a little bit of announcement in the future relative to this show and the
00:07:44Keeneland Spring Meet, but we'll keep that under wraps for now.
00:07:48As always, we'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:08:18on this amazing accomplishment.
00:08:48The TDN Writers Room was brought to you by Coolmore.
00:08:54Cafe Faro, son of American Faro, won his second grade one February stakes in Tokyo on Sunday,
00:09:00becoming the first horse in history to do so.
00:09:02He earns an automatic berth into the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:09:05Never too early to start thinking about the Breeders' Cup with the win.
00:09:08American Faro is now the fourth leading general sire in North America, so off to a great start
00:09:13this year.
00:09:14And over in Dubai, Shahama by Munnings took her record to four for four with a win in
00:09:17Friday's grade three UAE Oaks, definitely a Kentucky Oaks contender.
00:09:22The half-sister to Coolmore's stallion, looking at lucky, was bred by SF Bloodstock and brought
00:09:26$425,000 at last year's OPS Spring Sale from the Eddie Woods consignment.
00:09:30She's now the fifth stakes winner for Munnings already this year.
00:09:35This was a story last week that kind of immediately invalidated everything we talked about on
00:09:40the podcast about this, and so we love when that happens, the stories come out right after
00:09:43we record.
00:09:45But we talked last week about the bill going through the Kentucky legislature to try to
00:09:49circumvent the $140 mayor cap that the Jockey Club was looking to institute.
00:09:54And right after that came through to the Ag Committee, the Jockey Club pulled the plug
00:09:58and said, we don't want that smoke.
00:10:00We're going to get rid of this $140 mayor thing, and I think it's the right call.
00:10:04I'm honestly surprised, and it's so gratifying that they didn't have 100 lawsuits to try
00:10:11to negate this bill, considering everything that goes on in this industry with all the
00:10:14constant lawsuits and legal drama.
00:10:16So I applaud the Jockey Club for that, but I was a little surprised at how quickly they
00:10:19backed off on this.
00:10:20What do you guys think?
00:10:21Well, Joe, you know, it's funny, they put out in their press release, we're doing this
00:10:25because this is not a time in the industry when people should be fighting, should be
00:10:29all about unity.
00:10:30Well, come on, you did it because 24 hours earlier, this Kentucky legislature did something
00:10:37that was going to pass and was going to not only get rid of the $140 mayor cap, but, you
00:10:42know, really damage the Jockey Club quite a bit.
00:10:45Could you imagine them no longer being the registry for Kentucky bred horses?
00:10:49You know, what a mess that would have been.
00:10:51I'm actually going to just throw it to John because, you know, he's the more the guy.
00:10:55Someday maybe he's going to own the next into mischief and see what his feelings are on
00:11:01that.
00:11:02But I guess at the very least, we don't have to be talking about all the lawsuits for the
00:11:06next two, two and a half, three years about this.
00:11:09Take it.
00:11:10Yeah.
00:11:11And Bill, I've always been very outspoken about my feelings about the $140 mayor cap,
00:11:15you know, with regard to it should really be up to the breeders and up to supply and
00:11:20demand.
00:11:21I mean, that's really what built the country and built and builds businesses is, you know,
00:11:26the ability to have the people who are writing the checks, the breeders make the decisions
00:11:30as to whom they want to breed their mares to.
00:11:34And I understand that genetic studies came out and I understand that, you know, depending
00:11:38on who was reading it, it could be skewed.
00:11:41The message could be skewed or spun one way or the other.
00:11:43Certainly, I do believe that the gene pool is shrinking and we need to address it.
00:11:50Whether or not the cap would have helped it or having instead of having a hard cap, having
00:11:55incentivization to bring new gene pools into the breeding pool here.
00:12:00You know, would that have been a better system?
00:12:04I personally think so, but I don't know how, you know, the ability of being able to do
00:12:07it.
00:12:08Bottom line is, I'm glad that we don't have to have this rule kind of hanging over our
00:12:13head and that we can kind of move forward as an industry in unity and in lockstep.
00:12:19Do I believe that's the sole reason why the Jockey Club, you know, pulled the plug on
00:12:23the $140 mayor cap rule?
00:12:25No way in hell.
00:12:26Does it matter to me?
00:12:27Not really, because the bottom line is that we're going to be able to move forward as
00:12:31an industry and, you know, let the breeders decide if they want to breed 140 or 150 or
00:12:37200 or eight mares to a stallion at any given time.
00:12:40Yeah, I mean, this is kind of an imperfect solution.
00:12:43I think that, you know, I'm not a geneticist, obviously.
00:12:47I don't know the extent to which inbreeding is, you know, causing infertility or like,
00:12:53you know, unsoundness in horses over time.
00:12:56But I would just, you know, look at the declining foal crops and, you know, the kind of increasing
00:13:01number of horses that certain stallions can breed to and think that it would be a problem
00:13:05long term. But this was just such a drastic reaction to that.
00:13:10I think, you know, considering horses can breed 250 mares in a season to bring it all
00:13:15the way down to 140, I thought was very, you know, gutsy by the Jockey Club to try to do
00:13:20that. And it just seemed like it was never, you know, the power players in racing were
00:13:24never going to let that happen because it's not just the stallion and breeding industry,
00:13:28it's also the sales industry.
00:13:29You have fewer intermistress that go through the ring.
00:13:32You know, it's not good for any of the auction houses either.
00:13:35So it just it made sense that this was not going to end up being the law of the land.
00:13:40But it also just goes to show you how important it is to have a legislature on your side
00:13:45because that's the case in Kentucky.
00:13:47And it's not the case pretty much anywhere else in America where you have the legislature
00:13:51that has the interests of the racing and breeding industry at the forefront of their
00:13:56minds at all at all times.
00:13:59And I just wonder what better shape racing would be in across the country if we had some
00:14:04kind of legislative heft behind the reforms that we try to do.
00:14:07And that's what HIZA was.
00:14:09And now who knows what that's going to end up being.
00:14:11So, yeah, so once this came through the Kentucky legislature, it seemed like the 140
00:14:17mare cap was on borrowed time.
00:14:19And that's that's when it ended up happening.
00:14:22The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association.
00:14:25Now joining us is Brian Sanfratello, who is the executive secretary of the PHBA.
00:14:30He's on to discuss the new stakes PA sired and PA bred stakes program that's coming to
00:14:37Pennsylvania. It's something that other states have done to some success in New York and
00:14:42Florida. So, Brian, what races are we starting with and what was the impetus for this new
00:14:46stakes program?
00:14:48Well, we actually contacted the staying principals in Pennsylvania and had a little
00:14:55meeting with them, and we wanted to ask them what was what they thought was the most
00:15:00important thing to get the PA sired program moving more than it already was.
00:15:09And they had suggested the two year old sired series, and we brought that back to the
00:15:18racing committee on the PHBA board and they put it together and we're rolling it out now
00:15:28and everybody's kind of excited about it.
00:15:31Hey, Brian, thanks for joining us.
00:15:32And it's interesting to segue a little bit and look at what's been going on with the
00:15:36Maryland Million for the last many years.
00:15:38Preference is given in there to Maryland sired horses and a lot of really good Maryland
00:15:44breds sometimes can't get in.
00:15:46Is this the wave of the future?
00:15:47Do you think I'm not saying excluding Pennsylvania breds who are not by Pennsylvania
00:15:51sires, but is this the wave of the future, not only for Pennsylvania, but for all states?
00:15:55You think where they're going to have programs where the horses by sires in that state are
00:16:00going to get better treatment or preference?
00:16:03Well, in our case, we cannot pay money out to a horse that's not a PA bred, so we didn't
00:16:10have any choice in doing that.
00:16:15But we felt that if the horse is PA sired and PA bred, that it would benefit our in
00:16:23state registered sires more.
00:16:26And Brian, with the upcoming two year old sales just around the corner, can you give
00:16:31our audience an idea of how many foals are actually eligible for the upcoming two year
00:16:36old races? Because I would think it's probably a small amount, which is a good thing for
00:16:40Pennsylvania. It means that if there's less supply, the demand is going to be higher.
00:16:46Right. We have approximately 340 registered PA sired, PA bred horses.
00:16:56We feel that we're going to bring in a few more between now and when the races start.
00:17:03But it's broken almost in half.
00:17:06I think right now it's 162 colts and 172 fillies.
00:17:12So we feel that we'll have enough in the races.
00:17:21And this year, what we did was we said we wanted to get it off with a bang.
00:17:24So there are no nomination fees, no entry fees or no starter fees.
00:17:31We wanted everyone to be eligible to give a good showing.
00:17:38Just to give a quick rundown of the program, it's going to be $600,000 total in purses
00:17:43this year for PA bred and PA sired two year olds.
00:17:46There'll be two days with two races on each day.
00:17:49First races in the series will be run on Pennsylvania Day at the races, which is August
00:17:5222nd at Parks, which will be $100,000 stakes at five and a half furlongs.
00:17:58And then one month later, they'll be running for $200,000 each on the Pennsylvania Derby
00:18:02Day card, September 24th at a distance of six and a half furlongs.
00:18:06I just wanted to check if this is going to expand beyond the two year olds.
00:18:09Is that the plan going forward?
00:18:11Well, we want to make sure that when we do something, we want to make sure that it
00:18:18definitely can continue into the future.
00:18:21We don't want to do something for one year and have to stop it.
00:18:24So we're going to start with the two year old program and see how this goes.
00:18:27Next year, the two year old program will expand to three races.
00:18:32There'll be $125,000, $150,000 and $200,000.
00:18:37So we want to make sure that this goes well before we do expand it to anyone else.
00:18:43And guys, I don't know if you realize, but in the state of Pennsylvania, there are
00:18:47sons of Hardspun, Uncle Moe, Warfront standing in Pennsylvania.
00:18:53So, you know, I think for everyone's consideration, especially with the
00:18:56upcoming breeding season, you know, just starting off right now, that people should
00:19:00be looking at these stallions and seeing if they can, you know, have Pennsylvania
00:19:05Sired, Pennsylvania Bred horses to be eligible for races like this and year
00:19:08round racing in the Keystone State.
00:19:11Definitely.
00:19:12Yeah.
00:19:12A lot of opportunity in Pennsylvania as well.
00:19:14Brian, thank you so much for coming on with us and talking to us and best
00:19:17of luck with the program in 2022.
00:19:19Thank you very much, guys.
00:19:20All right.
00:19:21Good to talk to you.
00:19:21We'll be right back after this message from the PHBA.
00:19:25Here in Pennsylvania, we're proud of our breeding program, the best in North
00:19:29America, but we're also proud to be leaders in this industry.
00:19:33The PA Horse Breeders Association is funding cutting edge research at Penn
00:19:37Vet into equine health and safety.
00:19:39And we endorse the SAFE Act to help protect the most vulnerable horses.
00:19:43Plus, we're pleased to support the aftercare programs set
00:19:47up by our horseman's groups.
00:19:48Just a few of the reasons why you should join us in Pennsylvania,
00:19:52the premier place to breed and race.
00:20:05The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group, an
00:20:07accounting, tax, consulting, and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred
00:20:11industry with over 500 clients in the horse business.
00:20:13They have proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:20:16Learn more about how they can help you at www.greenco.com.
00:20:20So yesterday, Bill and John talked to Bob Hellringer, who is
00:20:23an equine regulatory law expert.
00:20:26God knows we need one of those these days.
00:20:27That was, it was definitely an interesting interview.
00:20:30So check out our interview, Bill and John's interview with Bob.
00:20:33Our guest this week is Bob Hellringer and what an appropriate time for him to make
00:20:37his debut here on the TDN Writer's Room podcast, because right now, if you're not
00:20:42a lawyer, it's hard to cover this sport because we're not talking a lot about who
00:20:46won the Risen Star stakes on Saturday.
00:20:48Unfortunately, we've been talking about and have so for the last two years, all
00:20:52the lawsuits, the scandals, et cetera.
00:20:55And Bob, perhaps more so than anyone else, is an expert in that field.
00:20:59He's an attorney and he literally wrote the book Equine Regulatory Law.
00:21:04Bob Hellringer, thanks for joining us.
00:21:05And I'll start off with what I think is the, you know, the question that I keep
00:21:10asking myself and I don't really have an answer for.
00:21:13So in the Baffert case, his attorneys are saying that the medication, bethametazone,
00:21:19got into the horse through an ointment and not from an injection.
00:21:25Does that matter?
00:21:27It seems that the Kentucky stewards have said it doesn't matter.
00:21:30It doesn't matter how it got into the horse's system.
00:21:33Your take on that?
00:21:35Well, I don't think it's going to ever matter to the regulatory people, beginning
00:21:40with the stewards, going to the Racing Commission, where this case will be
00:21:46heading now, the Racing Commission here in Kentucky will probably appoint some
00:21:51kind of hearing officer and that person will hear all the proof, make a
00:21:56recommendation to the commission.
00:21:57And I don't think anybody thinks that there's going to be any other outcome,
00:22:02but that they will uphold the stewards.
00:22:05And then it gets to court there.
00:22:09They might have a chance with that theory.
00:22:11The reviewing court doesn't hear the case all over again.
00:22:15It's not what they call a de novo hearing, but it's they just review the record and
00:22:21they see if the underlying decision was based on what's called substantial evidence.
00:22:27And there is a real term of art, OK?
00:22:29Substantial evidence to one judge might mean something different to another judge.
00:22:33But both of the circuit judges in Franklin County, one of them is going to get this
00:22:38case and they're both very well respected in administrative law circles.
00:22:45They both practiced in this area before they were judges.
00:22:48They've dealt with cases involving the Racing Commission in dozens of times.
00:22:53They have ruled against the Racing Commission a number of times.
00:22:59More frequently, they've upheld them.
00:23:02But the Baffert team will get, I think, a much more objective hearing in court than
00:23:10they're going to get at the regulatory level.
00:23:13And Bob, one of the things that came out as far as why Bob Baffert got a 90 day
00:23:21suspension versus a 60 day suspension is the fact that he's had a number of four or
00:23:25five positives over the past calendar year.
00:23:29Can you explain to our audience why that is so impactful in the decision and the
00:23:34penalty? Well, there's a scale of penalties, the severity of the penalties goes up
00:23:41with it's it's almost God, I hate to make this comparison to our beloved sport, but
00:23:46it's almost like a persistent felony offender statute in criminal law, which most
00:23:52states have. If you keep committing felonies, the prosecutor can continue to double the
00:24:01sentence of the subsequent felonies that you either plead guilty to or found guilty of.
00:24:06And so there's a similar scale for erasing penalties for violations if you've been a
00:24:13frequent offender. And and so Mr.
00:24:17Baffert is not just someone starting out with a first offense type case.
00:24:23And so that's reflected in what the stewards have imposed.
00:24:28Bob, I want to get back to the first question I asked and get you to elaborate a little
00:24:32bit more on this, because to me, this is this is the entire defense of the Baffert team.
00:24:36They're not saying he didn't have the drug in their system.
00:24:38They're saying, yeah, he had it in the system.
00:24:40But you have to understand there's extenuating circumstances.
00:24:44I would like to think this thing is in black and white.
00:24:46Don't the rules of the Kentucky Racing Commission say if you have a prohibited medication
00:24:51in you, you will be the horse will be disqualified and the trainer will likely be suspended
00:24:56in any way, shape or form?
00:24:57Does it say, well, if you have one that's really bad, you might get suspended.
00:25:01But if you have one that's kind of innocuous, it's not such a big deal.
00:25:05I would like to think at the end of the day, this would be, again, just something black
00:25:08and white. But you seem to think that's not the case.
00:25:11Well, the regulatory side of this is different than the judicial side.
00:25:17In my opinion, the regulatory side tries to have it in the starkest colors with no room
00:25:24for prevarication or obfuscation, one of those words.
00:25:29So to prevent, you know, these cases bogging down and in the minutia of trying to tweak
00:25:43or get away from the absolute part of the rule, they try to enforce that uniformly and
00:25:52not on a case by case basis.
00:25:55So it almost doesn't matter if this had happened to Bob Baffert or Bob Smith or Bob
00:26:01Hellringer in a race where you're the trainer of record.
00:26:05If you have the record he has and you have this positive finding, you're going to get
00:26:10the same penalty and the same disqualification as anybody else.
00:26:17So it's only when it moves to the judicial forum, I think that there's a possible chance
00:26:24of to show some kind of prevarication, for lack of a better word, that that why the rule
00:26:33should not strictly apply.
00:26:35And they'll base that on due process grounds that that here's what the rule is meant to
00:26:40prevent. And but you're violating his rights if you take it to the absolute level that
00:26:47the regulatory people have.
00:26:48So that's an argument that both of these circuit court judges in Frankfurt will at
00:26:55least listen to.
00:26:57But how they rule, of course, is another matter entirely.
00:27:01And Bob, one of the other things that we talk about all the time was, you know, when
00:27:06Naira and Churchill Downs both came out and said that they were giving the Baffert et
00:27:13al. a two year suspension.
00:27:16And we've gone back and forth as to, again, we're laypeople, but we've gone back and
00:27:20forth as to whether or not those organizations have the right to impose such a lengthy
00:27:27stay on Bob Baffert.
00:27:29What's the legal angle on it?
00:27:31How can they do that?
00:27:32Well, back in the day, when racing's regulatory people, stewards and racing
00:27:38commissions were all powerful, you had federal courts that that even held that
00:27:46black letter law that racetracks had an inherent right.
00:27:49That was the word they used.
00:27:51Racetracks had an inherent right to admit or exclude anybody they wanted for any
00:27:56reason, not connected to what they call constitutional ground.
00:28:01You can't exclude somebody because they're Catholic or a woman, you know, etc.
00:28:06So, or even a Republican, although they were close on the Republican way.
00:28:14No, racetracks have a lot of leeway, but that has changed considerably over the years
00:28:19since the 1940s and 50s.
00:28:23There's been a number of states, West Virginia is one that comes to mind readily
00:28:26where there have been cases that say that that licensees in particular have a due
00:28:33process right to be heard.
00:28:36They can't just be unilaterally ejected for no reason whatsoever.
00:28:40So that's why Mr.
00:28:42Baffert won the first round up in New York, because they ejected him and barred him
00:28:46from entering horses without a hearing.
00:28:48And the federal court said under the Supreme Court case that came out 40 years
00:28:54ago, Barry versus Barchi, that all equine lawyers know is the is the gospel.
00:29:01You're entitled to a hearing and due process.
00:29:03So they did have their hearing and they haven't had a result yet from that hearing.
00:29:08But so it is it is changed.
00:29:10It's a person has a chance today to overturn just such an ejection, depending on where
00:29:18you are, what state you're in, what your judicial branch has done in the past.
00:29:24It varies like everything else in racing.
00:29:26Depends on which of the 38 racing states you're in as to how really you're going to
00:29:32get dealt with in this situation.
00:29:35Bob, if he hasn't already, by the time we're recording this, I'm sure Baffert will get
00:29:39a stay of his suspension, the 90 day suspension.
00:29:41So that won't be an issue for him trying to run in the Kentucky Derby.
00:29:44But as John mentioned, there is the other matter of Churchill Downs banning him.
00:29:49We're only a little bit more than two months away from the Kentucky Derby.
00:29:52What do you think the chances of Baffert being able to race horses in the Derby are
00:29:57and what will be the plan of attack for his lawyers going forward to make that happen?
00:30:01Well, right now, his chances are zero.
00:30:03I mean, he I'm kind of perplexed, like I guess some other people are, that he hasn't
00:30:12filed such a challenge yet.
00:30:15And maybe that's forthcoming, but it hasn't happened yet and time is dwindling.
00:30:22So I don't know if he's most of his owners, it looks like, have stayed with him.
00:30:28But these horses aren't they're winning significant races, but they're not racking up any points.
00:30:34Churchill Downs is resolute.
00:30:35They're not going to run here.
00:30:37And so at some point he's going to have to seek judicial intervention of some kind if
00:30:44he wants to actually do that.
00:30:46And and then then it's going to get very interesting.
00:30:51Bob, let me let me shift gears on you for a second and then talk about another rule
00:30:54that was that was implemented and now has been removed.
00:30:58And that was 140 mare cap that the Jockey Club had implemented.
00:31:02And now those those words have actually been removed from from the rules.
00:31:08Is it was it within the Jockey Club, in your opinion, was it within the Jockey Club's jurisdiction
00:31:14to try to implement such a rule?
00:31:16Oh, it may have been in their jurisdiction, but isn't it amazing the timing of that
00:31:20announcement of the day after a bill was on the floor?
00:31:25And it was a day after it was introduced.
00:31:29It went through the Agriculture Committee and it was on the House floor the day, which
00:31:35is as fast as you can legally move a bill in the legislature that was going to prohibit
00:31:41such action.
00:31:43And I'm sure that timing was of that announcement was surely coincidental.
00:31:49But I think they would have a very hard time defending that in court.
00:31:56Well, they wouldn't have a hard time defending it, but a hard time winning the defense of
00:32:02that that act.
00:32:03I guess they were just hoping nobody would challenge it.
00:32:06And there were lots of people in Kentucky that were ready to challenge that.
00:32:10But I guess they just thought they'd pass a bill.
00:32:13We got the Speaker of the House here, who's a thoroughbred owner, breeder, you know, and
00:32:20very interested in that issue.
00:32:22Let's just leave it at that.
00:32:23Bob, let's turn our attention to horse racing's other favorite miscreants, Mr.
00:32:27Service and Navarro.
00:32:29Navarro will be sentenced to, well, has been sentenced to five years in prison, waiting
00:32:34to see what prison he goes to.
00:32:36But Jason Service is still out there fighting this thing.
00:32:39And again, I'm a layman, but I look at this and see a guy who must be spending astronomical
00:32:46amounts in legal fees and doesn't appear to have any chance whatsoever.
00:32:50I mean, that's that's I'm not a legal scholar, but I have followed this this case fairly
00:32:55closely. I make him five hundred to one in the morning line to win this case.
00:33:00Maybe even part of the field.
00:33:02Yeah, I understand the feel.
00:33:05Are you are you surprised that he is fighting this to the extent he is?
00:33:09And am I wrong?
00:33:10Does is there some some way magically he can can win this trial?
00:33:17Well, first of all, you you began your question with that.
00:33:19He must be paying astronomical legal fees.
00:33:21We certainly hope that that's true.
00:33:24But other than that, Drew Malika has one of those defendants.
00:33:29So I know he would appreciate me saying that New York lawyer, the you know, I don't
00:33:35know. They're all individual cases.
00:33:37I'm not privy to what's the negotiating.
00:33:40I'm sure there's negotiating going on, just like there was with Navarro.
00:33:43And Navarro just came to an agreement sooner.
00:33:47That doesn't mean its service won't.
00:33:49But they they're holding out and making the prosecutor think they're going to have to
00:33:55try the case. And there's that give and take when you're negotiating a plea that
00:34:01that you hope that they'll give you a little better deal if you give up your right to
00:34:06trial and save them the time and expense of doing that.
00:34:10So so we don't know what's going on or what the evidence is.
00:34:14It looks like the evidence is kind of the same for both of them.
00:34:18The wiretaps, et cetera.
00:34:20But and the other witnesses that are willing to testify against them.
00:34:24So I think at some point there'll be a plea reached.
00:34:27But you never know.
00:34:31But when you're teaching law at University of Louisville, what when the students come
00:34:36in and they and they go over the syllabus and they go over the chapters in your book,
00:34:40what is most interesting for them?
00:34:42What were they really looking to learn about equine law?
00:34:48Well, I was going to say that most of them want to know what it's going to take to
00:34:51pass. That's that's the first thing.
00:34:58The yeah, it's an elective at UofL when I teach it.
00:35:00And so kids that are in there want to be in there, which is a very different type of
00:35:06class. I taught the class one year for the undergraduate business school.
00:35:13UofL has one of the like the University of Arizona does has this equine business major
00:35:17that you can have. And I used to teach over there, but I taught it like a law school
00:35:22class. But anyway, one year the dean decided to make this a mandatory class.
00:35:27So I had like 30 kids in there, about 24 of whom did not want to be in there.
00:35:33And it was it's just a very different atmosphere.
00:35:40I'll put it that way. They those 24 just are getting through it.
00:35:45And the other ones are all pumped up.
00:35:47They love it. They ask a lot of questions.
00:35:49And and so most of my kids, I've had one that's now a judge.
00:35:55And I say whenever I'm in her court, I say, I know you you use this equine law class you
00:36:00took for me and that that's helping you every day in this in this courtroom.
00:36:05And she says, yes, it sure is.
00:36:08And smiles. So anyway, I don't know.
00:36:10I just hope they enjoy the subject matter.
00:36:13My textbook is more like a history book.
00:36:16As my granddaughter told me one time, it has pictures in it and profiles of people.
00:36:22And I didn't want it to be like a law book I had in law school, which were mostly boring
00:36:28case law studies.
00:36:30And I have a lot of history in there and I try to make it interesting.
00:36:34I have some weak attempts at humor at various points in the book.
00:36:40I find humor and try to find it in everything.
00:36:42So even I've struggled to do it even here with this serious subject.
00:36:48But anyway, it's something I enjoy teaching.
00:36:52And I think most of the kids have given me pretty good reviews.
00:36:56And but but you've got a new dean about three years ago and all of a sudden I was not
00:37:03asked back. So if the new dean is listening, I'd sure like to to teach it again.
00:37:09So anyway, well, shame on that new dean.
00:37:12I'll have to. And he's from New York.
00:37:15Oh, yes. He knows.
00:37:18Yeah, but I've got one more on service in Navarro.
00:37:21OK, what another one of the great unanswered questions to me is when this thing first
00:37:25happened, it looked to be a situation where they could go to the guys that were selling
00:37:29this stuff and cut deals with them and say, tell me who else you were selling to.
00:37:33We know about service. We know about Navarro.
00:37:35Give me the list of the rest of your clients that were buying the performance enhancing
00:37:40drugs. That has never happened.
00:37:43The whole case is just stuck to the original people indicted way back in March 2020.
00:37:48Why do you think that is that they would seem to be like low hanging fruit to go after
00:37:52maybe even dozens of more trainers?
00:37:55Why do you think that hasn't happened?
00:37:56And could it still happen?
00:37:58Well, it could still happen.
00:38:00They're not going anywhere.
00:38:01There's in most states, there's no statute of limitations on felonies.
00:38:06So they may be waiting to see if they wrap up all these big people and they get some
00:38:13serious time and then they'll go after the low hanging fruit, as you call them.
00:38:18So there's no rush.
00:38:21They obviously intended to put the two big people out of business and get them off the
00:38:27racetrack as quickly as possible and with some other co-defendants in there.
00:38:32But they still can and probably will pursue other people.
00:38:39For it's all over, unfortunately, which means we get to read about it, you know, for the
00:38:45next five years.
00:38:47Right. Well, we want to thank Bob Hellringer for coming on.
00:38:50And Bob, I should have gone to law school.
00:38:52You guys are the ones making all the money right now.
00:38:54What's going on in horse racing?
00:38:56What was that normal life?
00:38:58Yes.
00:38:59Anyways, thanks so much for your time.
00:39:01And we appreciate you appearing as the Green Group guest of the week here on the TDM.
00:39:05The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group.
00:39:08An accounting, tax consulting and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:39:12It's this week's Green Group guest of the week.
00:39:14Bob Hellringer will receive a free one hour tax consultation.
00:39:17Learn more at GreenCo.com.
00:39:19We'll be right back after this message from the Green Group.
00:39:22Why do the most successful owners, breeders and horsemen select the Green Group as their
00:39:26tax advisor? We simply save them money and know how to make them more successful.
00:39:30Over the past 40 years, founder Leonard Green has owned and bred some of the best race
00:39:34horses in the history of the sport.
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00:40:05The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by XBTV, XBTV's Workout of the Week.
00:40:32This week is Cabo Spirit, who was last seen running second to Messier in the Robert B.
00:40:37Lewis stakes, worked a sharp five furlongs in one minute and three fifths at Santa Anita
00:40:42on Sunday, which you can see.
00:40:43The winner of the Eddie Logan stakes in his prior start is a $575,000 OBS spring two-year-old
00:40:50is trained by George Pappapadromo, definitely a little under the radar contender for the
00:40:54Derby Trail. We had some very nice racing on Saturday at Fairgrounds.
00:40:59I thought it was a terrific, terrific card.
00:41:01Really kept me engaged on a Saturday.
00:41:03In the off-season, it's like kind of wait for the spring and the summer to really just
00:41:07sit down and watch the races all day.
00:41:08But I was tuned into that Fairgrounds card.
00:41:11Big race, obviously, was the Risen Star.
00:41:14Unfortunately, once Epicenter got clear in that race, it was just yet another race that
00:41:19felt like it was kind of over before the real running began.
00:41:23I thought Smile Happy ran well to be second.
00:41:25I thought Zanden also ran pretty well from the back of the pack in there.
00:41:28But Epicenter is a very, very fast horse.
00:41:30He was a tough luck loser in the little comp after setting that fast pace and definitely
00:41:35a very nice horse for Steve Asmussen.
00:41:37What'd you guys think of the Risen Star?
00:41:41Joe, the New Orleans route to the Derby has, by and large over the years, not produced
00:41:45really much of anything or not anything in the way of Derby winners.
00:41:48That might change. This was a very full field, a lot of good horses in there.
00:41:53And, you know, going one by one, Epicenter, I agree.
00:41:56I mean, he obviously is a legitimate Derby contender.
00:42:00Steve Asmussen is so overdue to win the Kentucky Derby.
00:42:03I mean, he's going to win three or four before it's all over.
00:42:05And, you know, is it going to be this year?
00:42:07But as I wrote in my weekend review, you know, I thought the star of the show, Smile
00:42:12Happy, even though he got beat two and three quarter lengths or two and a half or what
00:42:16it was, the way the race developed, like you said, into the first turn, Epicenter got
00:42:21away from those horses. The race, for all practical purposes, was over.
00:42:24Smile Happy at that point was eighth or ninth, something like that.
00:42:28Corey Lanery was never able, it was not so much that he was steadying or bothered, but
00:42:34he was always sort of hemmed in between horses.
00:42:36He couldn't find a lane at the top of the stretch.
00:42:39It looked hopeless, like he might finish fifth or something like that.
00:42:42He made a good late run to get up for second.
00:42:45I thought it was a huge race for him.
00:42:47And Zanon also in third ran very well.
00:42:49I didn't think he ran quite as well as Smile Happy, but he hopped a little bit of the
00:42:52start. Also had a trip where he was pretty far back behind a slow pace.
00:42:57So I think all three horses stamped themselves as very legitimate contenders for the
00:43:02Kentucky Derby. I think Smile Happy in defeat to me showed that he's the best of the
00:43:07bunch. But we'll find out.
00:43:09I guess they're all going to Louisiana Derby now next, and it will be maybe a year
00:43:14with Louisiana Roots.
00:43:15The Derby does, in fact, prove to be productive.
00:43:18Well, one of the reasons why we decided to have our Kentucky Derby contest a couple of
00:43:23weeks earlier was specifically because the way this race was setting up, we actually
00:43:27selected there were six different horses out of the 10 that were selected in our contest.
00:43:32And not that that's the be all or end all, but it shows the strength top to bottom of the
00:43:36race. And Bill, I think Epicenter was like your fourth round pick.
00:43:39I mean, that's how strong we thought of some of the contenders in the field and
00:43:45specifically and in this crowd.
00:43:48I would I would say that Epicenter, to me, looked a little bit more legitimate than I
00:43:54think you guys are giving him credit for.
00:43:56I know you both said that he looks like a definite contender, but let's just play it
00:44:00out. He went to the lead 23 and four.
00:44:03These were splits for every quarter of the race.
00:44:06So his first quarter was 23 and four.
00:44:08Next quarter was 24 and one.
00:44:10He again matched that for the four furlongs to the six furlongs, 24 and one.
00:44:16The six furlongs to a mile, 24 and two, and he finished up in kind of in a handwrite in
00:44:2012 seconds, 12 and two fifth seconds.
00:44:23So he was consistently kind of hammering out every single quarter mile.
00:44:29And that's not an easy thing to do.
00:44:31So I really give him a lot of credit.
00:44:33And again, shame on me and the rest of us for for not selecting Epicenter earlier in
00:44:38our in our most important contest.
00:44:41But as soon as the gates open and Rosario decided to send him to the front, he did.
00:44:46And then he just kept clipping off very consistent quarters, which is not an easy thing
00:44:51at this stage of the game.
00:44:53The other ones you mentioned, Smile Happy, ran a phenomenal race also.
00:44:55And again, coming off a layoff from Thanksgiving.
00:44:58So that that's an important kind of shake the rust off kind of race in the all important
00:45:02Kentucky Jockey Club that we've spoken about, just the strength top to bottom of that
00:45:07prep is a two year old Zandon and even Pioneer Medina also put in great runs and will
00:45:13be contenders for the Louisiana Derby.
00:45:15I was a little disappointed in Papa Cap.
00:45:18And I know, you know, Bill, you begrudgingly picked Papa Cap, I think, at the end of the
00:45:23of the draft and was kind of like, well, I guess he's a contender.
00:45:26I mean, he was still four to one in the morning line and just never really got off, you
00:45:31know, got into the race at all.
00:45:32Maybe it was from the one hole.
00:45:33Maybe he's just not quite good enough now that some of these other three year olds are
00:45:38developing. But again, top to bottom, really strong race.
00:45:41I think we'll be looking back at this race in particular as a key race for the road to
00:45:46the Kentucky Derby. 98 Byer for Epicenter, Son of Not This Time stands at Taylor Made
00:45:53and Keeneland Graduate.
00:45:55Bringing it all together, John, for us, as always, I think that the top three all ran
00:46:01very well for different reasons.
00:46:04Just to run down the points, we had the super in the TDN Derby contest.
00:46:09So Bill gets 50 points with Epicenter and I get 20 with Smile Happy.
00:46:15Al gets 10 with Zanden and Sue completing the super at 33 to one with Pioneer of Medina
00:46:21gets five points with Pioneer of Medina.
00:46:25So all four of us on the board to start the contest.
00:46:28That's that's what you like to see here.
00:46:30One of the things I thought was interesting about what you've seen so far in terms of
00:46:34the Derby preps, the major Derby preps that we've had so far, to me, there's been four
00:46:39and all four of them have been won by horses on or right near the lead with speed.
00:46:44So we had Messier in the Bob Lewis.
00:46:47We had White Abario in the Holy Bull.
00:46:49Now, last week we had Classic Causeway shaking off a lot of pace pressure to win the Sam
00:46:54Davis. And then we have Epicenter going wire to wire in the Risenstar.
00:46:57So that's it's going to be a little interesting to watch that develop as prep season goes
00:47:02on. If we end up having like seven, eight, nine horses that you think would want the
00:47:07lead in the Derby could lead to it to a Monarcho situation.
00:47:10But, you know, obviously still a long way to go.
00:47:12But then it's definitely something to watch.
00:47:14We'll talk about a couple of the races on the fairgrounds card.
00:47:17John wants to talk about the Rachel Alexandra, which was upset by a Brad Cox horse.
00:47:21I wanted to talk about Olympiad.
00:47:23You know, I am the I am the the card carrying member of the Olympiad fan club, the first
00:47:28or the original, the creator of the Olympiad fan club.
00:47:32But he is super, super nice.
00:47:34And I don't care. You only got a one or two buyer, quote unquote, only.
00:47:37I don't care what the number is.
00:47:38The way he finishes these races, he came home in under 30 seconds for the last five
00:47:44sixteenths, came home in twenty nine point five three seconds, which is kind of unheard
00:47:49of on dirt in a two turn race to come home that fast.
00:47:52He set a new track record at fairgrounds, ran 142 flat in the mine shaft, winning by
00:47:57two and a quarter lengths.
00:47:58Now, obviously, he got a good setup, which is just off the speed of Silver Prospector,
00:48:03who was probably not good enough to win that race.
00:48:05But it wasn't a bad field.
00:48:06He had Miles D in there, Obezos, who we like.
00:48:10Midcourt is not a terrible horse.
00:48:11Entreaty or untreated, rather, for Luis Saez and Todd Pletcher is a nice horse that I
00:48:17think is going to make some noise and maybe some smaller stakes this year.
00:48:20I love Olympiad.
00:48:21I think the sky's the limit for him.
00:48:22If you can get a Breeders' Cup classic future somewhere, I think I would take a flyer on
00:48:26him, especially considering the likelihood that Life is Good and Flightline are not going
00:48:30to make it all the way through the year and might be whisked off to the breeding shed.
00:48:34So I love Olympiad.
00:48:35John, what else did you think about the Rachel?
00:48:38Well, I thought the Rachel Alexander was, you know, was an interesting race because we
00:48:41haven't really spoken a lot about the three year old fillies and primarily we haven't
00:48:45spoken about them, you know, because the Colts usually drive the bus, especially this
00:48:49time of year. But also there hasn't been that like really top to bottom standout group
00:48:54of three year olds have been occasional standup performances, but nothing where you
00:48:58really go, wow, that's a horse, you know, other than like Nest or someone like that
00:49:03where you go, wow, that's really, really impressive.
00:49:05And the way the race was supposed to set up was, you know, Lecrete, who was undefeated
00:49:09daughter of Medallia D'Oro, that Stone Street Breeder owner, was supposed to go out
00:49:15and go to the lead and kind of keep going, just like the way that the boy race, you
00:49:20know, ran. And it said she got pulled up, you know, a half mile into it.
00:49:23And that really opened up the race for a couple of horses that were a little bit off the
00:49:29beaten path. And the winner turned her loose, you know, for Brad Cox.
00:49:32It was his first time, it was her first time running on the dirt.
00:49:37She had run four times on the turf and, you know, won a half a million dollar race at
00:49:41Kentucky Downs and placed in the Jessamine, just got beat.
00:49:45And basically the race opened up for her because Lecrete and Hidden Connection kind of
00:49:49ding-donged on the front end.
00:49:51And it opened up for a horse that could sit off it like Turner Loose.
00:49:56I thought it was an impressive race for Turner Loose.
00:49:58You know, then we had Goddess of Fire, daughter of Mineshaft, who stands at Lane's End.
00:50:03And she was trying to compete against these top horses, ran a great second.
00:50:09And then Awake at Midnight, again, another daughter of Nyquist finishing third.
00:50:14And the sneaky race, sneaky performance in the race, I thought was Hidden Brook Farms
00:50:18Horse, Hidden Connection for Brett Calhoun, who, you know, went ding-donging with
00:50:23Lecrete for the first, you know, three quarters of the race, hadn't run since the
00:50:27Breeders' Cup and just got nosed out for third, was kind of, you know, shuffling her
00:50:32stride, you know, with about a furlong to go down the stretch.
00:50:36But that's a filly that I think is under the radar with a lot of talent, Hidden
00:50:39Connection, that is just knocking off the rust and getting ready to improve as we're
00:50:44getting closer to the oak. So I think that the filly races are starting to come and
00:50:48develop as well. And we'll see a couple of stars come oak stack.
00:50:52Yeah, I mean, and that was a really good race going into the race, too.
00:50:57I thought you had four real top contenders.
00:50:59John mentioned most of them.
00:51:01Turner Loose is an interesting horse just because she had her whole race, her whole
00:51:04career on turf. And it's not, I don't usually see Brad Cox horses do that.
00:51:08Like, really? I mean, my one girl ran on turf once, but overall, she was a dirt horse.
00:51:13This is a horse that's been pretty highly touted.
00:51:15She was like six to five in that Keeneland Jessamine race that John was referencing.
00:51:21But she's just she seems to be a lot better on dirt.
00:51:24It's always interesting. These horses that run four or five times on turf and then just
00:51:27can be completely new horses on dirt as well.
00:51:31I just want to give a shout out to Joel Rosario on La Crette.
00:51:33Now, John mentioned that she pulled up early in that race.
00:51:36He was very, very quick to pull her up and might have saved her life.
00:51:40She had a condylar fracture.
00:51:41She had surgery the other day.
00:51:43Sounds like she's going to be OK.
00:51:45But that kind of quick thinking, quick hands from Joel Rosario can be the difference
00:51:49sometimes between a horse surviving an incident and not.
00:51:52So shout out to Joel for that one for sure.
00:51:56The TDN Riders Room is brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds.
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00:52:11West Point had some action over the weekend.
00:52:13How about Cavalry Charge going wired, not quite wire to wire, but was up on the lead
00:52:17most of the way in the fairground stakes going a mile and an eighth on turf and held
00:52:22on at thirty five to one.
00:52:23So a nice ride by Brian Hernandez, Jr.
00:52:26And a big congratulation to the owners, West Point Thoroughbreds, as well as William
00:52:29Sandbrook and Rob Macielo and also Obeso.
00:52:32So I thought we had a little bit of a sneaky fourth in the in the mineshaft.
00:52:35We talked about Olympiad before no one was ever going to beat him, but it was kind of a
00:52:40slow pace. So close into a little bit of a dawdling, a little bit of dawdling fractions
00:52:45up front. Ran fourth.
00:52:46So I think there's better things to come from him in his four year old year.
00:52:49And it's, you know, it's sale season, John.
00:52:52So you have any notes about West Point's upcoming sale season?
00:52:56Well, I mean, the first and foremost, this is prime time to get some of the next top
00:53:03juveniles in the upcoming sales.
00:53:05And one of the things that I've always been impressed with West Point and Terry Finley
00:53:09and his group is that they work those sales.
00:53:11They are there every day in the heat and the rain for the under tax shows.
00:53:15They're taking notes. They're clocking horses not only while they're going down the
00:53:19stretch for the breeze, but in the gallop out and they're doing the analytics and looking
00:53:24at the horses physically.
00:53:25I mean, there's probably I can't think of a group that does a more thorough job in not
00:53:31only watching horses and vetting horses out of these two year old sales than than West
00:53:35Point Thoroughbred. So it's prime time to to get on board with the West Point Thoroughbred
00:53:39partnership because they're going to be down in Miami and in Ocala over the next few
00:53:43weeks, unearthing the next great horse that's going to wear the West Point Thoroughbred
00:53:48sales.
00:53:49But instead I better myself, as you can see, we right back up to this message from West
00:53:54Point Thoroughbreds.
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00:54:26Being a small family business, I guess we're part of a dying breed.
00:54:29We're really grateful for the people that entrust us.
00:54:32We know it's a huge responsibility.
00:54:34We're always with your horse every step of the way when it comes to being at the sales
00:54:39ground, showing your horses.
00:54:40We are with your horse.
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00:54:58The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Legacy Bloodstock.
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00:55:10Legacy is now accepting entries for the summer yearling sales.
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00:55:22September. Call Tommy or Wendy at 859-609-4404 or visit LegacyBloodstockLLC.com.
00:55:33There was some big news earlier this week on the front of disqualifications and
00:55:37interference. Oklahoma has become the first state in the union to institute Category 1
00:55:43interference rules.
00:55:45This is something that Pat Cummings and TIF have been pushing for for a long time, but
00:55:48I'll let Bill explain what it means.
00:55:50Well, Joe, I'll try to make what is complicated a little less complicated.
00:55:54There are two systems in the world for doing disqualifications, Category 1 and Category 2.
00:56:00Most countries in the world are Category 1.
00:56:02United States is Category 2.
00:56:04Here's the difference.
00:56:05In our system, Category 2, if a horse bothers another horse and cost it in the
00:56:11steward's minds a placing, the horse that caused the infraction will be taken down.
00:56:15So, for instance, if Glow Worm wins the race and at the 16th pull he sawed off Helium and
00:56:22Helium finished fifth but might have finished third if not getting bothered, Glow Worm
00:56:27would come down.
00:56:29In the Category 1 system, the horse only comes down if the horse it bothered would have
00:56:36finished ahead of the horse.
00:56:38So back to, OK, so Proven Strategies is coming down the stretch and he saws off Helium and
00:56:44they finish 1-2, but Proven Strategies definitely would have finished behind Helium or
00:56:50Helium would have finished ahead of Proven Strategies.
00:56:53That, therefore, is a disqualification.
00:56:55I hope people can understand that.
00:56:56I know it's a little bit complicated.
00:56:58Now, I love Pat Cummings.
00:57:01I think the work that he's been doing is very important for the sport, but he's been the
00:57:05one guy out there that has been saying over and over again, we've got to go to Category
00:57:121, got to go to Category 1.
00:57:14I hate this.
00:57:15Am I alone here?
00:57:17This is for a lot of reasons.
00:57:19First, I think our system is better.
00:57:21First of all, if a horse is cost a placing, I think that that should result in a
00:57:27disqualification both for the owner of the horse that was bothered and for the bettors.
00:57:33Now, people aren't just betting to win.
00:57:35They're betting trifectas, superfectas, et cetera.
00:57:37You could have a horse that finished his fifth, was bothered and might have been fourth and
00:57:43got into your super.
00:57:44Maybe you would hit the super for a thousand dollars, but now you're not going to get put
00:57:48up in the Kentucky Derby.
00:57:50I think most people, most sane people anyways, think that maximum security should have
00:57:55come down. Under this rule, he wouldn't have come down because the horses he bothered were
00:58:00not going to finish ahead of him.
00:58:02I thought that was one of the most obvious fouls and it happened in a big race.
00:58:06And also, too, I wonder about the jockeys.
00:58:09If a guy, Jockey X, is coming down the stretch and there's a hole and he knows if I go in
00:58:15there, I'm going to saw off horse Y.
00:58:17But at the end of the day, since horse Y is tiring a little bit, I'm not going to get
00:58:22disqualified.
00:58:23Is this a license for jockeys to ride, I wouldn't say recklessly, but maybe take more
00:58:29chances than they would normally.
00:58:32I don't I think our system worked fine.
00:58:34I don't see the reason to change.
00:58:36And I hope Oklahoma is the one one system out there that are one state out there that
00:58:41sticks to this. So I'm just just clarify for me, because I'm still a little confused on
00:58:46the situation. Does this give the stewards more or less judgment calls when it comes
00:58:52to watching races?
00:58:54I think neither.
00:58:55I think it just changes what kind of judgment calls they have to make is, again, back to
00:59:01Category two, they have to use them.
00:59:03And there's no there's no obvious it's not like, you know, baseball.
00:59:07Well, if three strikes, you're out four balls, you walk.
00:59:10There's no obvious rule here.
00:59:12But in the Category two, they have to decide whether or not the infraction cost the horse
00:59:17replacing. And that could be something that is not necessarily black or white, a gray
00:59:23area. Now they have to decide whether or not in Oklahoma, whether or not it costs the
00:59:27horse would have finished ahead of the other horse.
00:59:32It will result, I'm sure, in fewer disqualifications.
00:59:35But, you know, look, I mean, you know, people love to criticize the stewards.
00:59:39Every single time there's a disqualification, people, no matter how blatant it is, people
00:59:44are screaming on Twitter, this is the worst call I've ever seen in the history of horse
00:59:48racing. Then the same guy next week will say this was the worst call I've ever seen in the
00:59:53history of horse racing.
00:59:54So, you know, again, John, yeah, I don't think it's going to make it the stewards are going
00:59:59to have to make more decisions of that nature.
01:00:04I just think they're going to have to make different decisions.
01:00:07I've got a lot of a lot of opinions on this.
01:00:09I think, you know, it's in a way it's going to put more into the stewards hands in that,
01:00:14you know, if a horse gets gets bothered and then misses third by like a head or a nose,
01:00:20then it's a relatively easy thing, I think, to say that horse was cost of placing.
01:00:25If I bother you at the eighth pole and then run off and the horse tries to re-rally, but
01:00:30he still gets beaten by me by three lengths, who are you to say that that horse was or
01:00:34wasn't going to win that race, you know, with the contact happening so much earlier?
01:00:38It just it seems like it's gonna be such a high bar to clear to say this horse who got
01:00:42picked off at the nine sixteenths pole was going to finish again ahead of this horse
01:00:47that, you know, did five other things from that point on in the race.
01:00:51I think it does lead to a little bit more incentivizing reckless riding because, you
01:00:56know, the disincentive now to when you have a horse who's getting going and you don't
01:01:01have a lot of room, the disincentive to just knocking horses side off, you know, one side
01:01:05or another that are retreating perhaps is that you can get DQ'd and put behind that
01:01:11horse after the steward's inquiry.
01:01:13Like it tells you that no horse is is sacrificeable in this pursuit to get a clear
01:01:20lane or get through a hole.
01:01:22And I, you know, I just think it's it might lead to fewer DQ's, but as Bill said, this
01:01:27isn't just a game where you bet to win and it's not just a game where they pay out the
01:01:30purse to win.
01:01:31They pay out sometimes all the way down to fifth, sixth, seventh.
01:01:35So if you get bothered and, you know, they're going to say, oh, well, you weren't going
01:01:39to beat the horse that won the race.
01:01:40So what? I still was going to finish better than I would have if that horse hadn't done
01:01:45that. So I just, you know, it's for me, it's a little bit of a solution in search of a
01:01:49problem. And I don't think, you know, I think the people, people's problems with
01:01:53stewards rulings is that they're inconsistent, is that there'll be a DQ for this one
01:01:58day and then they'll leave it up that day.
01:02:00That's just humans. You're not going to be able to change that.
01:02:03Just human judgment and human error.
01:02:05I don't know. Beyond having maybe fewer inquiries and fewer DQs, I don't know that
01:02:11this necessarily fixes the problem that people have when it comes to those sorts of
01:02:15things. That's never been my problem.
01:02:16If I get like DQ'd out of stuff, it's never been like, oh, well, that horse wasn't
01:02:21going to finish ahead of me.
01:02:23So what? I mean, could you imagine the Derby?
01:02:26OK, so Maximum Security almost killed Long Range Toddy or whoever the hell that horse
01:02:31his name was. But, you know, Hot Range Toddy was never going to finish ahead of him.
01:02:35So go ahead, Luis, it's fine.
01:02:37Right, he cut off like five or six different horses.
01:02:39Yeah. But seriously, under this, under Cummings' rule, he wouldn't have come down.
01:02:44Right. And I think would have been crazy.
01:02:46You know, it's just you cut off half the field.
01:02:49Who is a steward to say, you know, that horse wouldn't have re-rallied in the next five
01:02:53sixteenths and finished ahead of you?
01:02:54Like, it's just completely seems like you're putting more faith in the stewards to make
01:02:59these. That's why I asked the question.
01:03:01Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:04Just mentioned this before we leave.
01:03:06Marcus Vitale was back in the news, obviously, for the wrong reasons.
01:03:09This past week, he got a one year suspension in Pennsylvania after one of his horses
01:03:14tested positive for methamphetamine.
01:03:17Bill's been covering this and he ran into somebody who thought that Marcus Vitale is
01:03:21getting railroaded. Three Marcus Vitale.
01:03:24Bill, let's hear that.
01:03:26Well, OK, so he gets the positive for meth in Pennsylvania, one year suspension.
01:03:30It's the one thousand four hundred and eighth suspension of his career or something like
01:03:34that. We all know that.
01:03:35I'm going to say something that is going to be incredibly unpopular here.
01:03:40But Joe, you know, and sticking up for Marcus Vitale is like sticking up for like
01:03:44Hannibal Lecter or something like that.
01:03:47But, you know, you look at that.
01:03:49Did he really give methamphetamine to a horse and say, I'm going to put it in an
01:03:54improved performance?
01:03:56Come on. No, that didn't happen.
01:03:58Meth is everywhere.
01:03:59You know, environmental contamination, et cetera.
01:04:02Also, the Pennsylvania Racing Commission has not been consistent whatsoever.
01:04:05And all other methamphetamine positives.
01:04:07There's been basically no penalty whatsoever.
01:04:10Peter Miller got a methamphetamine positive in Pennsylvania and was only given a
01:04:16fine, no suspension whatsoever.
01:04:18So then the question is, are they setting are they going by different standards?
01:04:23Because he is Marcus Vitale.
01:04:24Well, that's the thing. We talked about this before.
01:04:27Like John mentioned the Baffert 90 day 90 day suspension.
01:04:31You would have got a 90 day suspension if it was just this one thing.
01:04:35If there's one guy who has not earned the benefit of the doubt in horse racing, it's
01:04:39Marcus. Totally understood.
01:04:41And, you know, the other part of the story here.
01:04:44And again, because, you know, oh, my God, please don't anybody think I'm sticking up
01:04:49for this guy or vouching for him or something like that.
01:04:51But he I mean, that he has not been thrown out of horse racing for good by every track
01:04:56in the country up to this point.
01:04:58Again, it's something, again, we've been talking about for two and a half years on
01:05:01here, just how ridiculous that is and what a black eye for the sport it is and shows
01:05:05how the sport is really not serious about cracking down on the rule breakers such as
01:05:11Marcus Vitale. So is he going to have to serve a one year suspension?
01:05:15Maybe, maybe not. I don't think he has the resources Bob Baffert has, but but he'll
01:05:20definitely fight this. And at some point in time, we'll get a conclusion.
01:05:23And even if he served a one year suspension, I'm sure Turf Paradise will roll out the
01:05:27red carpet for him when he decides to come back there at the end.
01:05:31He's still got Carolyn Vogel in his corner, too.
01:05:34You know, as long as you have only have a single, a dedicated, loyal owner, you can
01:05:40be you can stick around and racing, she says in Bill's story that she will stick with
01:05:44by him until further notice.
01:05:45He's very good with legs, very hands on.
01:05:48He doesn't have too many horses.
01:05:50He's not real expensive.
01:05:51I bet he makes it more affordable and fun.
01:05:54Is she concerned about his reputation?
01:05:55Bill asked, I don't think he is a cheater.
01:05:57He might push the envelope, but he doesn't cheat.
01:06:00Well, right. Doesn't that doesn't that basically say you push the envelope of the
01:06:04rules? It means you're cheating.
01:06:06I mean, like you can't say he pushes the envelope, but he's not a cheater.
01:06:09It's like if they push the envelope, it means they're not within the confines of the
01:06:13rules. That's basically the inherent definition of it's like saying, well, he bends the
01:06:18rules. Well, that means he freaking doesn't play by the rules.
01:06:21Come on. But we can't say Marcus Battaglia is a cheater with his record.
01:06:26Who can we call a cheater?
01:06:28Come on. Only Navarro, because he's been indicted.
01:06:33Yes. Yeah. Unless unless you're going to unless you get convicted of federal trial, we
01:06:38can't officially call you a cheater with a sprinkle in the alleged lease allegedly,
01:06:41allegedly, allegedly. All right.
01:06:43So that's going to do it for this week's edition of the TDN Writer's Room presented by
01:06:46Keeneland. A reminder to mark your calendars for the April Horses of Racing Age sale,
01:06:50which is on closing day of the Keeneland Spring Meet, which is Friday, April 29th.
01:06:54Entries open next Tuesday, March 1st.
01:06:57I want to thank Bill Finley, John Green, our Green Group guest of the week, Bob
01:07:01Hellringer, as well as Brian Sanfortello, our producer, Patty Wolf, our associate
01:07:05producer, Katie Petruniak, and our editors, Anthony LaRocca, Aliyah LaRocca and Nathan
01:07:10Wilkinson. Thank you so much for watching.