Category
🥇
SportsTranscript
00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28Welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room.
00:00:30My name is Bill Finley.
00:00:31I am a correspondent for the Thoroughbred Daily News, and I co-host the Down the Stretch
00:00:35radio show on Sirius XM Radio.
00:00:38Good morning or good afternoon or good evening, everyone, wherever you're watching this.
00:00:41I'm Randy Moss with NBC Sports and the Buyer's Speed Figure team.
00:00:45I have a dog, but she's behind me on the floor right now, sleeping.
00:00:49I'm Zoe Cameron with First Racing and XBTV.
00:00:52I have my therapy dog, Doodle, here right now because I think once we cover the next
00:00:58few topics, we're definitely going to need our dogs.
00:01:01So let's get going.
00:01:02Yes, a therapy dog for all of us is in order.
00:01:06So what we should be talking about today is a wonderful day of racing at Saratoga with
00:01:11Arcangelo winning the Travers, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's the best three-year-old
00:01:16colt in training, but we can't do it because once again, a big day of racing was overshadowed
00:01:24by tragedy, and it was overshadowed by tragedy.
00:01:27You had two breakdowns on Travers Day, including a just awful one in the Alan Jerkins with
00:01:33New York Thunder, looked almost exactly the same as what happened to Maple Leaf Mel in
00:01:39the Test Stakes, an undefeated three-year-old sprinter just a few yards from the wire on
00:01:45its way to victory and breaks down in full view of 48,000 some odd people.
00:01:54As I recall, when we talked about the test, I believe I said, this is terrible, but I
00:01:59don't know what to do about it.
00:02:01And if I did, I apologize because I take that back.
00:02:05And the subject that I want to get into today is not just the breakdowns, but why they are
00:02:10happening, and a big reason why is because this sport has embraced racing on dirt, and
00:02:19dirt, all the statistics show, is by far the most dangerous surface among the three that
00:02:24we race on, dirt, turf, and synthetic.
00:02:27And I'll just get right to the point, and we're going to talk to Hall of Fame trainer
00:02:30Mark Cassie about this in a little bit too.
00:02:33There's too many nails in the coffin already.
00:02:35We can't drive in anymore, and we're getting very close to that.
00:02:40And we tell people, and we tell the animal rights community and our detractors, we like
00:02:44to tell them we're doing everything we can to help these horses and keep these horses
00:02:49safe.
00:02:50And you know what?
00:02:51That's a lie, because we're not.
00:02:52Because there is no movement afoot, or maybe there is in the background, but we don't see
00:02:58out front anyone, the people that matter, the people that make these decisions, the
00:03:03Churchill Downs of the world, the Nairas of the world, the Breeders' Cups of the world
00:03:06coming forward and saying, American racing cannot continue down this path, where every
00:03:11Saturday you turn into Fox or NBC, and you're afraid to watch the races, because you're
00:03:17afraid what's going to happen, and you just can't take it anymore.
00:03:22The answer is we have to switch to synthetic surfaces.
00:03:25It's the only thing that we can do to put a major dent into this problem.
00:03:30Sure, the veterinary examinations are important, and Naira's doing more of that, and the various
00:03:34scans they do are important, and everything they've done in Southern California to cut
00:03:38down on the number is very important.
00:03:41But the thing that can make a biggest difference of any, it's obvious, it's converting to synthetic
00:03:46surfaces.
00:03:47I know it's going to be a big change.
00:03:50It's going to be something that the breeders are not going to be happy with, but what is
00:03:53the alternative?
00:03:54And I'm afraid the alternative is in 25 years, there's no such thing as horse racing, or
00:03:58maybe it exists in Kentucky, and people are racing for blankets and trophies, kind of
00:04:03like they do now with steeplechase racing or something like that.
00:04:06And I hate to start off these podcasts with doom and gloom and things that just get us
00:04:11all depressed, but damn it, it's time to do something now, and the sport has to move forward,
00:04:16and there has to now be a very serious change in direction, synthetic surfaces.
00:04:22That's what I have to say about it, Randy, you?
00:04:24Yeah.
00:04:25I mean, how many, oh no, not again moments are we going to have?
00:04:30Exactly.
00:04:31Exactly.
00:04:32That's what I'm talking about all the time, and there's so many different avenues we could
00:04:35go down here.
00:04:36I mean, I think even almost every breeder, I think, even though they won't necessarily
00:04:43say it publicly, probably understands that the sport for decades and decades has been
00:04:50focused on more speed, more speed, more speed, and durability and soundness has almost been
00:04:57a secondary issue, but let's focus on the synthetic part right now.
00:05:02The sport has known for decades also that synthetic racing surfaces are safer, lead
00:05:09to fewer horse deaths, catastrophic breakdowns than dirt racetracks.
00:05:14Yes, dirt racetracks may have gotten safer than they were, but they're still not even
00:05:21close to synthetic surfaces in terms of overall safety.
00:05:26So why hasn't the sport completely embraced synthetic racing?
00:05:32Obviously, they tried in California, they tried in Kentucky.
00:05:37Those experiments ended for various reasons.
00:05:44Horsemen were accustomed to training for dirt.
00:05:49They had been raised to train on dirt, and now they were being asked to completely change
00:05:56their training philosophy, and a lot of them didn't like that.
00:06:01You've got a sport that's so beholden to tradition.
00:06:04I mean, look at the Triple Crown spacing argument, that they don't want to change anything.
00:06:09And the Triple Crown, for example, has traditionally been run on dirt and has traditionally been
00:06:14the predominant American racing surface.
00:06:17But you touched on the breeders, and I think that could be first and foremost here, is
00:06:24that hundreds of millions of dollars and decades and decades have been spent to try to breed
00:06:31the perfect dirt horse, to win the Kentucky Derby, to sweep the Triple Crown, possibly.
00:06:39And we've seen synthetic racing, we've seen synthetic pedigrees.
00:06:44Synthetic racing, I don't care what the proponents say, it is a completely, in many cases, different
00:06:51animal than dirt racing.
00:06:55Less speed-oriented.
00:06:59It would change the dynamic of breeding to a certain extent.
00:07:03So that's the question.
00:07:05Have we gotten to the point in thoroughbred racing where the major breeders in this country
00:07:12will accept a sea change in racing surfaces from dirt to synthetic?
00:07:19You would think, after yet another catastrophic breakdown, front and center at Saratoga, on
00:07:25the heels of all the other ones, that we may be at that point.
00:07:29I'm not convinced that we are, because the sport has an unfortunate tradition of getting
00:07:36a week or two, three weeks down the road, okay, it's died down, it's not in the newspapers
00:07:41anymore, it's not on TV anymore, it's buried our heads in the sand, and it's horse racing,
00:07:47there's nothing we can do about it.
00:07:49I don't think that's the right approach, though, Zoe.
00:07:53I mean, we're in a hard spot right now.
00:07:55I mean, you're talking about the Triple Crown.
00:07:59We can't even agree to change the dates.
00:08:01Do you think there's any possibility that Churchill Downs, because it has to start from
00:08:06there, is going to go to synthetic?
00:08:08I can't see it happening.
00:08:09We can't agree to change the dates for the good of the sport and the health of the horses.
00:08:15That's just a minuscule thing that we're trying to agree on.
00:08:20I think it does have to start at the breeders.
00:08:22It has to start with perhaps the biggest stud farm there is in North America, and that is
00:08:27Coolmore, who stands the only two Triple Crown winners in justifying American pharaoh.
00:08:32Does it start with them?
00:08:33Are they going to do something?
00:08:35I mean, they have huge action in Australia and Ireland with Coolmore over there as well.
00:08:41So, I mean, they've got a lot of skin in the game.
00:08:45It does have to start with the breeders.
00:08:47I can't see it starting with Churchill Downs saying we're going to go to synthetic and
00:08:51save the sport.
00:08:52I mean, the protocols are definitely going to help.
00:08:55I'm going to read off some Santa Anita protocols, and whether you like them or not, it's very,
00:09:00very hard to train a horse in Southern California.
00:09:03Any trainer will tell you with the protocols in place, it's very, very hard.
00:09:09You need to have a secretary.
00:09:11You need to get all your ducks in a row.
00:09:13But you can't argue with the facts that since these have been put in place, that the deaths
00:09:18have gone down.
00:09:19Now, I've got some stats here from 2019 to 2023.
00:09:26So, it'll be year to date.
00:09:282019 compared to 2023, year to date.
00:09:31In racing, in 2019, there were 14 deaths compared to four.
00:09:37That is a 69% drop.
00:09:412.81 compared to 0.80 in 2023 with the new protocols in place.
00:09:48That's a 68% drop just because of the protocols.
00:09:52Now, training, 13 deaths versus seven, that is a 41% drop.
00:09:59That alone is just from the protocols that have been put in place at Santa Anita.
00:10:04Now, if you add on synthetic tracks, we're never going to get to zero.
00:10:08We know that, but it's certainly going to help.
00:10:11And when everything was going on at Santa Anita, the East Coast, I mean, I had some
00:10:18friends, oh my God, how can you train a horse out there?
00:10:20It's laughable.
00:10:21I'm like, be careful.
00:10:22It's coming your way and it's here and something needs to be done.
00:10:27And that is the one thing they're going to start with.
00:10:29Now, Naira announced that on August the 30th, they're going to put more protocols in place
00:10:34for workouts in the morning.
00:10:35Why wait?
00:10:36What are we waiting for?
00:10:37That was a week ago they announced that.
00:10:39Do it now.
00:10:40You can't say we're going to do this next week.
00:10:42It needs to be done now and show some good faith moving forward.
00:10:47And you're right.
00:10:48Horse racing has short memories.
00:10:50In a month from now, everything might be rosy and golden, but something has to be done.
00:10:55I'm really looking forward to hearing what Mark Cassie has to say a little bit later on.
00:11:01Zoe, to your point, I totally agree.
00:11:03I think that in Southern California, they've done a marvelous job.
00:11:07But my problem with that is that if that's the best we can tell the public, well, we're
00:11:12doing better.
00:11:13It's getting better.
00:11:14I don't think the public accepts that.
00:11:17And I want to go back to, I've just jotted down, I have been there and seen Ruffian,
00:11:24Gopher Juan, Eight Bells, Barbaro, Prairie Bayou, Hall of Famers, Great Horses, Great
00:11:29Winners.
00:11:29I've been there to see every single one of them break down and have to be euthanized.
00:11:34But even Barbaro, which was 17 years ago, 2006, I don't recall anyone standing up and
00:11:43saying, we've got to shut this sport down.
00:11:47It was something that was bad news for one day in the papers, and then we all kind of
00:11:51moved on.
00:11:52And it was a terrible thing to say.
00:11:54But back then, everybody used to say, oh, it's just part of the game.
00:11:58But since Barbaro in 2006, the way the American public looks at how people treat animals and
00:12:07what is OK and what isn't OK has changed dramatically.
00:12:12And you know what?
00:12:13I'm glad that it has, because I don't think people are wrong about this, that it's not
00:12:19right for animals to go out and die for our pleasure, which is essentially what is happening
00:12:27right now.
00:12:28And here's another thing.
00:12:31I'll do a Randy Moss deep dive into some of the statistics here, courtesy of Lucas Marquardt,
00:12:36who wrote in the TDN about the need for going to synthetics.
00:12:41He says, from 2009 to 2022, there has been 6,036 fatalities on dirt surfaces.
00:12:48And that's only in racing.
00:12:49It doesn't include training.
00:12:52That's 1.86 per 1,000 starters.
00:12:55On synthetic, there have been 534 fatalities.
00:12:59Wish it was zero, but it's not.
00:13:00But 534 equals 1.11 fatality per 1,000 starters.
00:13:06That's a 68% difference.
00:13:09He said, had the numbers on dirt matched the numbers, the percentages that we get on synthetics
00:13:17would have saved the lives of two.
00:13:19This is a staggering number, 2,437 fewer fatalities.
00:13:26And I'm saying the same thing, largely what I said before, but 2,437 fatalities.
00:13:35And we won't and we may not do.
00:13:39We will.
00:13:39We won't.
00:13:39I don't know.
00:13:40I don't think it's going to happen either.
00:13:42But who can look at ourselves in the mirror as an industry and say, we could have saved
00:13:47the lives of 2,400 horses, maybe 2,400 horses in the future.
00:13:51And you know what?
00:13:52We're not going to do it.
00:13:53Oh, man.
00:13:56And Mark Cassidy is going to get emotional about this.
00:13:58I'm going to get emotional, too.
00:14:00I'm getting up in ears.
00:14:01I would hate to be a 25-year-old getting started in this industry right now and wanting to
00:14:06make my entire career out of it, meaning you got to last for another 45 years or something.
00:14:12Boy, that's going to be tough.
00:14:13Yeah.
00:14:16Even before this past Saturday at Saratoga, for example, PETA was calling for the racing
00:14:26season at Saratoga to be suspended, just as it was at Churchill Mounds, before New York
00:14:31Thunder.
00:14:32And when we talk about the public perception of things like that, I mean, the New York
00:14:37Thunder thing was as bad as it gets, right?
00:14:39It was on a Saturday in August at Saratoga.
00:14:43It was on Fox.
00:14:45People were thinking about football now.
00:14:47But imagine, just imagine the first Saturday in May, an undefeated horse, right, getting
00:14:56all the attention that an undefeated horse would get in the Kentucky Derby, kicking clear
00:15:01from his competition in mid-stretch, drawing off to a five- or six-length lead.
00:15:05And then snapping his leg at the 16th pole in front of tens of millions of viewers on
00:15:14NBC at the Kentucky Derby.
00:15:16Just think of the outcry.
00:15:18And, oh, by the way, if it was in the Preakness, if the horse was forced to run back in two
00:15:22weeks, imagine then what we would be looking at.
00:15:28We mentioned breeders.
00:15:29And I, again, as we said, I agree, I'm skeptical that anything is going to happen.
00:15:34But there are some breeders, Bill Kassner, right, who wrote an op-ed for TDN in June.
00:15:41He's been a longtime proponent of this.
00:15:44When Maidan pulled out its Tepida racing surface in 2014, nine years ago, here's what Kassner
00:15:52was quoted as saying.
00:15:53And boy, does it remind you of that.
00:15:55Nine years ago, here's what Kassner was quoted as saying.
00:15:58And boy, does it ring true right now.
00:16:00See, when a horse breaks down anytime, it's a terrible thing.
00:16:03But when a horse breaks down in front of the grandstand in the afternoon, two things happen.
00:16:09People will turn around and leave the track in droves, never to return.
00:16:14And a jockey will go down and be injured to some degree, whether it's a bruise or whether
00:16:19it's paralysis.
00:16:21When there are agendas placed above the safety of horses and riders, to me, it is unconscionable.
00:16:29So Bill is no longer involved directly with Windstar Farm.
00:16:32But there are, I think there are breeders and former breeders out here, whether there
00:16:37are enough of them to sound those alarms.
00:16:40And trainers like Mark Cassie, I guess we'll see.
00:16:43Yeah, there's no easy way to word it.
00:16:46And then New York Thunder wasn't the only one on Saturday.
00:16:48Nobel on the turf after the race.
00:16:51A lot of people never even knew that happened.
00:16:53I was there and it was horrific.
00:16:58Both horses, people did get up and people left and said, we're never coming back.
00:17:02I saw families leave with their kids bawling.
00:17:06It was about one of the worst things that you could possibly see.
00:17:10And I've seen a lot.
00:17:11I have seen too much.
00:17:14And it was horrible, really.
00:17:16So I don't know what the answer is.
00:17:18I will say one thing for synthetic tracks is it's very kind on the horses.
00:17:24For the people, not quite so much.
00:17:26And I've spoken to a lot of jockeys over the years.
00:17:29And Rene Douglas was one of the first to go down on the synthetic at Arlington Park.
00:17:36It's not good to fall on.
00:17:37It's not jockey friendly.
00:17:40I will say that much.
00:17:41I've fallen on it and you stick.
00:17:43Tyler Gafleon was incredibly lucky.
00:17:46He went down on both horses on Saturday.
00:17:49And I mean, kudos to him to even want to stick a leg over the back of the horse.
00:17:52He was off on Sunday because he was sore.
00:17:54He went down on the turf on Noble and then New York Thunder.
00:17:57But he slid.
00:17:59And one of the things about the synthetic track, if you're a jockey and I'm a former jockey,
00:18:03you fall off and you hit and it hurts.
00:18:06And there is no slide and no give.
00:18:08Now, it's better for the horses, but jockeys do get hurt on it.
00:18:13And I'll just leave that at that.
00:18:15And I'm a proponent for synthetic tracks.
00:18:17But that is one factor that I'm not sure anyone's looking into.
00:18:22I do want to remind you that the TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:18:26The catalog for the Keeneland September sale is out and it's online.
00:18:31There are 4,194 horses entered for the sale.
00:18:35And for the third straight year, the sale kicks off with a two day book one,
00:18:39followed by a two day book two.
00:18:42The latest Keeneland September successes include Arcangelo.
00:18:47How good was he on Saturday?
00:18:49He followed his Belmont Stakes triumph for the decisive Travers win.
00:18:52Arcangelo is a mere $35,000 September yearling.
00:18:58And that's not all.
00:18:59Echo Zulu, winner of the grade one ballerina, was also a Keeneland September grad.
00:19:05So selling for $300,000 to L&L Racing and Windchill Thoroughbreds.
00:19:10That looks like a steal as well.
00:19:12Learn more about the Keeneland September sale,
00:19:14which runs September the 11th through the 23rd at theworldyearlingsale.com.
00:19:19We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:19:25If this place could talk, it would roar.
00:19:32It would say, this is racing.
00:19:36This beating heart in the heart of horse country.
00:19:40Steady and strong beneath the roar.
00:19:44Reminding us why.
00:19:46For the love of the horse.
00:19:49For generations to come.
00:19:50The TDN Riders Room is brought to you by Stone Street.
00:20:11Watch out for the 59 Stone Street breads at the upcoming Keeneland September sale.
00:20:17The sale will take place from September the 11th through the 23rd.
00:20:21Stone Street breads won two races this past Saturday.
00:20:25First was Alexa Liu, who won a 2023 debut at Ellis Park for owners Rockridge Racing.
00:20:31The three-year-old daughter of Spicetown now has two wins from three lifetime starts.
00:20:36And then there was Pride of the Nile, who was second in the grade one starlet at two.
00:20:40She won a Del Mar allowance for her owners Westcoast Stables.
00:20:44The filly was a $140,000 Keeneland September yearling.
00:20:48Stone Street, born to run, raised to win.
00:20:52The TDN Riders Room is brought to you by the Fast Sires at Windstar Farm,
00:20:57the sponsor every week of the fastest horse of the week.
00:21:00This week, we're focusing on the stallion Improbable, a grade one winner as a two-year-old.
00:21:06Eclipse champion, older male, with three consecutive grade one wins.
00:21:11The awesome again, the Whitney, the Hollywood Gold Cup.
00:21:13And of course, he was then second in the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:21:17Improbable's first yearlings are on the market now.
00:21:20It's sold for up to $425,000, with eight sold so far.
00:21:26He is sporting an impressive average sale price of $217,500.
00:21:33You can look for those Improbable yearlings at the Keeneland September sale.
00:21:39Fastest horse of the week.
00:21:41You saw her, Saturday, ballerina handicap, Echo Zulu, okay?
00:21:47Chad Brown trained Goodnight Olive impeccably for the ballerina handicap
00:21:55to have a career best performance.
00:21:59She ran a 108 by her speed figure,
00:22:02and Echo Zulu just kicked away from her through the lane like it was nothing.
00:22:07For a back-to-back 112 by her speed figure.
00:22:11Now, how impressive are back-to-back 112 by her speed figures?
00:22:16If you look at the history of by her speed figures, okay?
00:22:19Published in the Daily Racing Forum.
00:22:21Here I go, Zoe.
00:22:21I'm going down a rabbit hole.
00:22:23Female sprinters.
00:22:25There have only been two of them that had back-to-back speed figures as high as Echo Zulu.
00:22:32Educated Risk was one of them, trained by Suge McGehee.
00:22:35The other one, I know you probably know who it is.
00:22:39Extra Heat did it five times in one year in 2001.
00:22:46Extra Heat ran 113, 113, 117, 118, 120.
00:22:50That's the kind of rarefied air that Echo Zulu reached on Saturday
00:22:55with her back-to-back 112 by her speed figures,
00:22:58this time in the ballerina handicap.
00:23:00Echo Zulu, this week's fastest horse of the week.
00:23:06Next up, the TD and Riders Room brought to you by The Green Group,
00:23:11a tax accounting and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry
00:23:16and designed to save you taxes.
00:23:19And we welcome in now The Green Group guest of the week.
00:23:21He's a Hall of Famer in both the United States and Canada, Mark Cassie.
00:23:25And Mark put in a very good Q&A this week in the Thoroughbred Daily News
00:23:31about all the controversies going on now in racing and about synthetic surfaces.
00:23:35Nobody has a better feel for this, perhaps, than Mark Cassie
00:23:39because he races at Woodbine on the synthetic
00:23:41and races throughout the US on dirt and turf.
00:23:44Mark, we just had a spirited discussion among the three of us
00:23:47about the future of racing, the future of synthetic tracks.
00:23:50We cut right to the chase.
00:23:52Is it time now, considering all the awfulness
00:23:55that racing's been going through over the last several years,
00:24:00for this sport to bite the bullet and say it's time to convert to synthetic tracks?
00:24:04I think it is.
00:24:05I mean, we've got years and years of data that says it's far safer.
00:24:12And look, the path we're going down right now is ugly.
00:24:18And we have to do something and we have to do it quickly.
00:24:21And it's going to take a drastic measure.
00:24:25So, as you know, as we all know,
00:24:29hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested by breeders
00:24:34in dirt stallions, dirt pedigrees,
00:24:38trying to get dirt horses for the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness and the Belmont.
00:24:44What do you think is going to have to happen in order to convince these breeders
00:24:49to upend that and to switch to synthetic?
00:24:53Well, honestly, Randy, I think it's probably
00:24:57I think it would be, it's not as big a worry as they make it to be.
00:25:02I think the majority of horses, I would say this,
00:25:07it's my experience, maybe one out of ten horses don't like synthetic.
00:25:12I would say that three out of ten may not like turf.
00:25:17And one out of ten don't like, or nine out of ten don't like the dirt.
00:25:21I think we can get these horses, you know, we don't know.
00:25:28You're sitting there and saying, well, we've got the dirt breeding.
00:25:31Most of that, a good horse will run on anything pretty well.
00:25:36And I can tell you, they'll run a lot longer and last a lot longer.
00:25:40Would this be the case, Mark, of say you have ten horses by Justify
00:25:45all running on the synthetic?
00:25:48It's just going to be the fastest horse at the end of the day.
00:25:51Is that what's going to try and save our sport is bringing synthetic back in?
00:25:55And what do we have to do differently?
00:25:57Because you are the expert.
00:25:59You've been doing this for 40 years.
00:26:01You've probably seen more synthetic tracks than the rest of us all together.
00:26:07What do we need to do better with the synthetic tracks that we didn't do
00:26:11at Keeneland in California or the other places?
00:26:14Well, I don't I don't think you can put Keeneland in that category.
00:26:19Keeneland, in my opinion, changed, not because of because the success of their
00:26:28synthetic, because it was pretty good.
00:26:30Now, in the beginning, look, tapitas come or synthetic has come a long way, I think.
00:26:39Anybody that will sit there and tell you that that California did a good job when
00:26:45they put theirs in in the beginning would be lying.
00:26:48We know that they had lots of issues.
00:26:51I think they did a poor job of putting it in.
00:26:54I ran at Delmar the last meet we had on synthetic.
00:27:00And I told all those guys, you know, I'm not going to put you in that category.
00:27:07I told all those guys.
00:27:09They're like, oh, we're so happy to be going back to dirt.
00:27:12And I said, be careful what you wish for.
00:27:17And I saw some statistics today when they went back to saying they need it on dirt.
00:27:23The fatality rate was crazy high.
00:27:27So, yeah, we've got a better we have a better synthetic surface now than than we
00:27:35had then.
00:27:36Just look, the statistics don't lie.
00:27:39I look today.
00:27:41It's amazing.
00:27:42I think Woodbine started mid-April.
00:27:47They've had something like 4,500 starts over tapita and have had two fatalities.
00:27:55They've only had one on the turf and that horse got kicked.
00:27:59And I also read where they had 14,000 recorded workouts in two.
00:28:09I mean, we had more than that one week in Saratoga and Kentucky.
00:28:17So, I mean, it's amazing.
00:28:20Look at look at what Gulfstream put in a synthetic track.
00:28:24And I think they've had one breakdown, one fatality since it was put in.
00:28:31And Gulfstream's not even benefiting from the full effect of synthetic.
00:28:36You only can run a synthetic at Gulfstream.
00:28:40You get to train.
00:28:41You can breeze over it, but you don't get to train every day over it.
00:28:44I believe that these injuries that we're seeing on the turf are coming from turf horses that
00:28:54are training over a dirt track that they don't care for.
00:28:58And it goes for a while.
00:28:59And every day it wears and wears and wears on them.
00:29:03And then the next thing you know, the straw that breaks the camel's back.
00:29:07You know, I said in the TDN the other day, it's like you have a car and the wheels aren't
00:29:19balanced.
00:29:19You go down the road and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:22And the hubcap flies off.
00:29:23It wasn't the hubcap's fault.
00:29:26So, I believe that, and I think the statistics show it, that not only is it safer to run
00:29:34on, it's safer to train on.
00:29:37And without a doubt, not even close.
00:29:41Even if you have a great dirt track, they may be equal on a good day.
00:29:47But they're far superior on a bad day.
00:29:50I also believe, and some people aren't going to like this, but I think that, especially
00:29:58on dirt, in dirt racing, it's mostly speed, speed, speed.
00:30:03And I think that that's dangerous.
00:30:05I look at it.
00:30:07If you go the first quarter in 21 flat, I don't know the miles per hour, but it's a
00:30:14lot faster than that.
00:30:15It's a lot faster than if you go in 22 flat.
00:30:18When you run on synthetic, the fractions are more equal over a period of time.
00:30:25You don't have the craziness.
00:30:29And we just lost two grade one, really good grade one horses.
00:30:34And what did they do?
00:30:36They were fast, fast.
00:30:37They ran as fast as they could.
00:30:39And that ended up being their demise.
00:30:43And so I believe there's a lot of trainers out there that like fast horses and want to
00:30:49go as fast as they can.
00:30:51And you run everybody off their feet.
00:30:52But I think in the end, that's dangerous.
00:30:57Mark, of late, it seems like the sport just goes from one tragedy to the next.
00:31:01And every time something happens, we all just throw our hands up in the air and say, boy,
00:31:06what are we going to do?
00:31:07Isn't this a shame?
00:31:08And I commend you for being somebody who's been outspoken not only about this, but a
00:31:13lot of subjects that you're not happy with horse racing.
00:31:18And I think that the reason is that you seem to be genuinely concerned, as I think you
00:31:23should be, about the future of this sport.
00:31:26Now, you've had a great career.
00:31:28You're in two Hall of Fames, but you have a son who trains.
00:31:31You said you have another son who may get into training.
00:31:35How concerned should we be about the future of the sport unless we do do something dramatic,
00:31:42perhaps go to synthetic, perhaps something else?
00:31:44But if we just continue with the status quo, where is this all headed?
00:31:50We can't.
00:31:53We have to be better.
00:31:57As I said the other day, we're still using the same type of track that we
00:32:04used 100 years ago or 125 years ago.
00:32:09We have this technology.
00:32:11We have the statistics.
00:32:13We have to do something about it.
00:32:15And as you said, Bill, this is not about me.
00:32:19My career is coming to an end.
00:32:23But it's about two sons that I have that are behind me.
00:32:28And this game has given so much to me.
00:32:32I just, for the first time, and this is sad to say,
00:32:41I'm not as proud to be a horse trainer as I used to be.
00:32:45And that's sad.
00:32:48I mean, here I've been very fortunate, two Hall of Fames, and I'm not proud of our sport.
00:32:59That's sad.
00:33:04And in my opinion, it's dangerous.
00:33:06And I'm going to do whatever I can do to help it.
00:33:11And frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn who I piss off or upset.
00:33:18Yeah.
00:33:19In the aftermath of the New York Thunder breakdown, Jorge Delgado had quotes that were similarly
00:33:25kind of emotional about his view of being a horse trainer and the challenges right now
00:33:32of being a horse trainer.
00:33:33So in order to change this, you mentioned Keeneland.
00:33:37And Keeneland's surface met with rave reviews when it was polytracked.
00:33:42But in the end, they chose to change it, in part, according to Bill Thomason at the time,
00:33:47because it didn't have the acceptance of horsemen and fans.
00:33:53Part of it was because I think the bluegrass stakes had become almost irrelevant as far
00:34:00as a prep to the Kentucky Derby.
00:34:02Do you think that in order to start this change to synthetic racing surfaces, that it has
00:34:08to start with Churchill Downs in the Kentucky Derby and in the Preakness and in the Belmont?
00:34:15Again, I'm not going to make people happy, but yes.
00:34:19Yes, I think it's interesting.
00:34:23I think it was about 15 years ago, I sat on a committee in New York, and Todd was there,
00:34:32Dale Romans was there, Nick Zito was there.
00:34:35And we talked about it.
00:34:36And at that time, I said, you know, we have a crisis.
00:34:39Because this is not our first crisis.
00:34:42We've been through a few of them.
00:34:45And I think at the time, I don't think New York had the money to do it, to go synthetic.
00:34:52If they had, they would have already paid for it.
00:34:55Because these three and four horse fields, when we come off the turf, those won't exist.
00:35:04Because a lot of those horses will run on the synthetic.
00:35:08But I think New York has to go.
00:35:12If New York goes synthetic, if somehow you get Churchill Downs to go synthetic,
00:35:19that's what's going to have to happen.
00:35:21And we have to do something.
00:35:25You mentioned Keeneland, I don't know if you remember any, but I think it was like 30 days
00:35:32prior to them saying they were going to go back to dirt.
00:35:36The Jockey Club came out with statistics at that point in time.
00:35:40And I was furious when Keeneland, and I let everybody know, I was furious about it.
00:35:47I didn't hold it back then.
00:35:49And you're 100% right.
00:35:53They thought that the Ashland and the Bluegrass had lost its prestige to get them to the Derby.
00:36:02Interesting enough, I happened to hear a trainer who is a very good trainer, he's now retired,
00:36:12tell somebody, I like synthetic, but if we run on it at Keeneland,
00:36:16and this person trained in New York, if he runs on it and they run well,
00:36:23they won't let us take the horse to New York because they'll seek out synthetic instead.
00:36:30So there were guys not running their horses simply because they didn't want to expose their hand.
00:36:37Right?
00:36:38Now, is it going to change some things?
00:36:40Yeah.
00:36:41Are some of the turf sires probably going to raise up a little bit?
00:36:44Yes, they are.
00:36:47But we can adapt.
00:36:49I mean, look at Pioneer of the Isle.
00:36:50He was a great synthetic horse, and he's turned out to be a very good sire.
00:36:55It's nice.
00:36:57I think we're worrying about something.
00:36:59It'll all work out.
00:37:01I can tell you this, and I think I've earned my stripes in this part of it.
00:37:10You'll get a lot more starts out of horses.
00:37:12It's just not as fatiguing.
00:37:18It's not as hard on them.
00:37:19These horses will get more starts, and if they get more starts, that's better for owners.
00:37:24That's better for breeders.
00:37:26They're just worried, and they're worried, and I understand, but they're not.
00:37:31We have to fix something.
00:37:33We cannot continue to go down the road.
00:37:35We are.
00:37:36And look, this is not for me, because I don't know.
00:37:40This is not for me, because I don't know.
00:37:43Maybe 10 more years for me, right?
00:37:48I'm fine.
00:37:49We can stop tomorrow, and I'll go play golf, and I'll be just fine.
00:37:55Mark, in your opinion, what is the best synthetic surface that you've seen,
00:38:00and what else does it bring to the table?
00:38:02I know that you mentioned that we're getting rid of Lasix, right?
00:38:08It's pretty much going to be gone.
00:38:09No, I disagree.
00:38:11I disagree.
00:38:12I do not think we're going to get rid of Lasix.
00:38:14Okay.
00:38:16I think you mentioned that it's a little better for breeders.
00:38:18You've had-
00:38:20Not even close.
00:38:21Not even close.
00:38:24I tell everybody, you know what?
00:38:26I do my own studies.
00:38:30I would say on an average week, we would breeze and run probably about 40 to 50 horses
00:38:39on dirt.
00:38:39Well, yeah, 40 or 50, we breeze on dirt, and the same on synthetic.
00:38:47When I get my reports at the end of the day from the veterinarians, you would be shocked.
00:38:52Where it's not uncommon for me to breeze 20 horses on a Saturday or Sunday at Woodbine,
00:39:02and then run another 10, and this is how many would bleed.
00:39:08Zero.
00:39:11You work 10 horses at Churchill Downs on Lasix, half of them will come back and bleed.
00:39:19Just less stress?
00:39:21It's less stress.
00:39:22It's also, it's environment as well.
00:39:26The cooler weather helps definitely, but there's no question.
00:39:32The biggest problem with synthetic is it's so kind on them that you cannot get them ready
00:39:38to run on dirt because they bounce over it.
00:39:42I said something in my article about Patrick Husband saying, he told me, and he's been
00:39:49riding synthetic now for 20 some years, and I'm going to knock on wood when I say this,
00:39:55but he said he's never had a horse fall with him on the synthetic, and he said it's because
00:40:01when a horse gets hurt, it actually gives back and it catches them a little bit.
00:40:06Now, I'm not saying that a horse, I don't want anybody to go, oh, well, show me this
00:40:12one fell, this one.
00:40:13I'm not saying that horses don't fall, but you just don't see the same horrendous injuries.
00:40:22You got to think about, and Zoe, you know as well as I do, sometimes it's one step,
00:40:27they hurt themselves.
00:40:28When they try to catch themselves, then it's ugly.
00:40:32Well, on dirt, it's a thud.
00:40:34They just hit.
00:40:35There is no give.
00:40:36Synthetic gives a little bit back.
00:40:39It bounces back and it catches them a little bit, and so I believe that that is probably
00:40:45why we don't see the same amount of fatalities.
00:40:49Mark, I am in agreement with you.
00:40:50I too believe we should convert to synthetic surface racing, but I think at the same time,
00:40:57I'm being a little naive to think that it will happen.
00:41:00I just don't see it happening.
00:41:01I hope I'm wrong, but how do you feel about that?
00:41:05Are the Mark Cassies of the world and the Bill Finleys of the world who want to see
00:41:09this change, are we being naive to think that it might happen?
00:41:14Maybe.
00:41:15All I can do, Bill, I'm going to give you everything I have.
00:41:21I believe in it.
00:41:24I'll go down fighting.
00:41:30You can only do so much, right?
00:41:34I'll do my best.
00:41:36I'm doing my best.
00:41:40I'm not a good loser.
00:41:43In the midst of the decision in Southern California to pull up the synthetic racing
00:41:50surfaces, you heard some trainers complain that, yes, you had fewer catastrophic breakdowns
00:41:57on synthetic, but you had more other types of injuries on synthetic.
00:42:01It was a common refrain from trainers, hind end injuries, things like that.
00:42:06What's your opinion on that as someone who has trained more horses on synthetic than
00:42:11almost anyone else in America?
00:42:13Can I say a bad word?
00:42:15Sure.
00:42:16Bullshit.
00:42:18It's absolute bullshit.
00:42:20And I have the statistics and the records to show it.
00:42:24That is the biggest crock of bullshit that you can come with.
00:42:29And you only need to, if you read Bill Kastner's, his article today with the breakdown of how
00:42:37things happen, it's crazy.
00:42:39I get horses from people.
00:42:43I train for different owners and some of them have different trainers.
00:42:48Anytime a horse gets a tendon or a suspension or you're hurt, guess who they send them to?
00:42:53Me.
00:42:54And you know why?
00:42:55Because they know that I have the best record of getting those horses back to the races.
00:43:00And you know why?
00:43:01Because I take them to Woodbine on synthetic.
00:43:05So that's a big, I mean, maybe in the beginning, that was the case that with those tracks were
00:43:13maybe not as good.
00:43:15Maybe they had some, but nobody, one for the most part, most trainers have short memories.
00:43:24Short memories.
00:43:25I mentioned that to my colleagues when they wanted dirt in California.
00:43:30I said, you have short memories, short, short memories.
00:43:34And look, all horses, we have issues.
00:43:37The crazy thing, I have 30 horses here at Saratoga.
00:43:40I've had one horse get hurt at the meet.
00:43:43Guess how it got hurt?
00:43:44In the stall.
00:43:45So they're going to hurt themselves.
00:43:47They're going to do things.
00:43:48They're going to do things, but it is to sit there and to say, there's not even close.
00:43:56For instance, if those, I don't know, what did I say?
00:44:01I have 5,000 starts on dirt and 5,000 on synthetic, something like that.
00:44:08I would tell you the rate of soft tissue injuries is four or five times greater on dirt than
00:44:17it is on synthetic.
00:44:19You mentioned Kasner.
00:44:20Kasner mentioned in that op-ed article that he thought some of the hind end injuries on
00:44:25synthetic were initially caused by trainers using toe grabs on horses in the rear, which
00:44:30he said has turned out to be a complete no-no on synthetic.
00:44:33Do you agree?
00:44:35Yeah, we need a little slide and we do do that.
00:44:42I'm just telling you that, well, we don't use toe grabs on them behind.
00:44:45So we don't in Canada.
00:44:47We have a queen's plate.
00:44:49So it's interesting because we've went on so many different paths.
00:44:56You know, I find it amazing.
00:44:59We've gotten stricter, stricter on shockwave treatment.
00:45:04We've got stricter on injecting joints and everything.
00:45:09Woodbine has the most lenient rules in North America and the least amount of breakdowns.
00:45:15So I think a lot of times we're climbing, we're barking up the wrong tree.
00:45:21There's only one tree to bark on and it's on the track.
00:45:27Well, some very powerful stuff from Mark Cassie.
00:45:29We really appreciate his candor.
00:45:30Mark, thanks so much for being the Green Group Guest of the Week on the Thoroughbred Daily
00:45:33News Podcast.
00:45:35And keep speaking out.
00:45:36Racing needs more voices like your own.
00:45:40As this week's Green Group Guest of the Week, Mark Cassie will receive a free one hour tax
00:45:45consultation with the Green Group.
00:45:47For more information on how the Green Group and Lynn Green can help save you money on
00:45:51your taxes, you can log on to www.greenco.com and find out for yourself.
00:45:57Are you paying too much in taxes?
00:45:59The Green Group can help.
00:46:01There's a reason the most successful owners, breeders and horsemen select the Green Group
00:46:05as their tax advisors.
00:46:07They save you money.
00:46:09And share successful strategies.
00:46:11Over the past 40 years, the Green Group founder, Lynn Green, has owned and bred some of the
00:46:17best racehorses in the history of the sport.
00:46:19Like Eclipse Award-winning champions, Jay Walk and Wonder Wheel.
00:46:23His DJ stable competes at the highest level and has received the game's most prestigious
00:46:27honors.
00:46:28Lynn Green's in-depth, hands-on industry knowledge, combined with cutting-edge tax
00:46:33saving strategies, has produced positive results for his clientele and has made the Green Group
00:46:38the top-rated accounting and tax firm in the thoroughbred business.
00:46:42For a confidential and complimentary consultation, contact us at 732-634-5100.
00:46:49Or visit our website at www.greenco.com.
00:46:54The Green Group.
00:46:55Proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:46:58The PA Horse Breeders Association presents the Pennsylvania Stallion Series.
00:47:03Six races for PA sire, PA bred two-year-olds at parks.
00:47:07Two $100,000 contests at five-and-a-half furlongs.
00:47:11On August 21st, PA Day at the Races.
00:47:14September 23rd, PA Derby Day.
00:47:16As two races at six-and-a-half furlongs.
00:47:19Both with a $150,000 purse.
00:47:21And in December, two races going long, each worth $200,000.
00:47:25For more, go to pabred.com.
00:47:28The TD and Riders Room is brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association.
00:47:32Another big week for Pennsylvania bred.
00:47:35You might have watched at Saratoga on Friday.
00:47:37The smart and fancy stakes for female sprinters on the turf.
00:47:42Roses for Debra, trained by Christophe Clement, winning again.
00:47:46She is now undefeated on turf or synthetic.
00:47:50And she is a Pennsylvania bred.
00:47:53Bred by Blackstone Farms.
00:47:55Speaking of synthetic, and we've talked a lot about synthetic on this program already.
00:47:59Roses for Debra will head next to the Master Stakes.
00:48:03Grade 2 at Presque Isle Downs.
00:48:05On that track, Stapita.
00:48:06Scheduled for September the 18th.
00:48:09Also, a reminder, September 23rd is the date for the next two races in the Pennsylvania Sired.
00:48:14Pennsylvania bred stallion series.
00:48:16Featuring two $150,000 races.
00:48:19Both at six-and-a-half furlongs.
00:48:21One for two-year-old colts.
00:48:22The other for two-year-old fillies.
00:48:25Well, can we finally talk about something that's a little bit more uplifting here?
00:48:29On the TDN Writer's Room podcast.
00:48:30And that was the Traverse Stakes.
00:48:32And it really lived up to the billing.
00:48:34Brings back the two-year-old champion Forte.
00:48:37And the three winners of the individual Triple Crown races.
00:48:40Going in, it really looked like it was going to be the race that would define the division.
00:48:44And we'd find out who the best horse among this group is.
00:48:48Found out definitively.
00:48:50Arcangelo, Jenna Antonucci, Javier Castellano.
00:48:53Decisive win.
00:48:55Beat the best of the best.
00:48:57And we have now a horse that has taken over control of this division.
00:49:01I think unless something big happens in the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:49:05And the race is won by another three-year-old.
00:49:06Might even have cemented a three-year-old champion with that.
00:49:11A couple other thoughts.
00:49:12It was a weirdly won race.
00:49:13Why wasn't National Treasure on the lead early?
00:49:16That was very strange.
00:49:17What was Tapitrice doing so close?
00:49:19Also, you know, the story of who ran well is, of course, Disarm, who was second.
00:49:25And Arcangelo.
00:49:27Not a good effort for Forte.
00:49:28He was fourth.
00:49:29National Treasure fifth.
00:49:30And Mage, Kentucky Derby winner, was seventh and last.
00:49:33So we saw some pretty disappointing performances.
00:49:36But taking nothing away from Arcangelo.
00:49:39He, Randy, is the real deal.
00:49:41Yeah, couldn't have been more wrong in my pre-race analysis of the Traverse Stakes.
00:49:46Zoe, you were there.
00:49:46I know you were super impressed with Arcangelo, right?
00:49:49Oh, yeah.
00:49:50He was, you know, I think I said it last week.
00:49:53He was of all the horses that trained up to the Traverse.
00:49:56He was the one that slew through the racetrack like it was butter.
00:50:00He has looked picture perfect each and every day.
00:50:03Coming off an 11-week layoff without, you know, your six, seven-day works.
00:50:08Every 10 days.
00:50:09Every 12 days.
00:50:10He flew around the racetrack every morning.
00:50:13Never missed a note.
00:50:15Looked healthy and happily and got a perfect ride from Javier Castellano, who seemingly
00:50:22put him in the right spot, despite, and you're going to jump into this,
00:50:25Erat Ortiz, perhaps, on forte.
00:50:28Trying to knock him out the way right at the beginning.
00:50:31He got a great trip.
00:50:32This arm perhaps didn't get the best of trips.
00:50:34He got a teeny bit of trouble.
00:50:37But there is no question in my mind who the best horse was on that day.
00:50:41And it was Arcangelo.
00:50:42And thank God.
00:50:43Thank God.
00:50:44I mean, Jenna saved the day.
00:50:47If you could salvage any part of the day, that was it.
00:50:50That she won with that horse on that particular day.
00:50:54That was the only shining light.
00:50:56It was actually a rainbow that came up later in the day as well, which was quite eerie,
00:51:02to be perfectly honest.
00:51:03But that was the savor of a horrible day, was Arcangelo winning.
00:51:08And he did it brilliantly.
00:51:10And kudos to Javier Castellano picking up his seventh Travers win.
00:51:16Jenna Antonucci becoming the first woman to train a Travers winner.
00:51:19Oh, second.
00:51:20Second, sorry.
00:51:22Second woman to train a Travers winner.
00:51:25Who was the first?
00:51:26Mary Hirsch back in the 40s or something like that.
00:51:29I always get emails from, I guess it's her nephew, Bill Hirsch Jr.
00:51:33Always reminds me.
00:51:35Mary Hirsch, yes.
00:51:36Won the Travers Stakes back in the 30s or 40s.
00:51:39So Arcangelo slicing through the surface like butter.
00:51:42I needed some more of that butter on my handicapping toast before the Travers Stakes.
00:51:48My rationale was that in the Belmont, Arcangelo got a perfect rail trip,
00:51:54got through on the inside all the way.
00:51:56Forte was coming into the race off, what was it?
00:51:59An 11-week layoff, had a wide trip, still was only beaten, you know, less than two lengths.
00:52:05I mean, I thought compared to Arcangelo, Forte ran a much better race in the Belmont.
00:52:11So I thought Arcangelo was going to be over bet.
00:52:14Boy, was I wrong.
00:52:15I mean, he just rolled around those horses.
00:52:17I thought Forte had no excuse.
00:52:21I thought he was more aggressive with blinkers in the Jim Dandy,
00:52:25but I thought he reverted in the Travers and was running in spots.
00:52:30He was up close early, then he dropped back to last at one point on the backstretch.
00:52:34When Irad got squeezed back a little bit,
00:52:37he was trying to push Mage out of the way going down the backside,
00:52:41kind of like he did to another horse in the Jim Dandy.
00:52:44And Flavien Pratt held his ground and kept Forte behind horses
00:52:49and kind of shuffled him back to last there.
00:52:51But that really wasn't an excuse because Forte rolled up at the top of the stretch.
00:52:55And if he had run the same way he ran in the Jim Dandy and the Belmont and all that,
00:53:01I think he would have been right there, but he didn't.
00:53:03Mage, the footnote says that he was shuffled back at the start a little bit.
00:53:11I don't agree with that.
00:53:14I thought he had a fairly good trip to the first turn,
00:53:17although he got a little rank at one point in between horses when Scotland crossed over on him.
00:53:22What I thought Scotland was going to make the lead over National Treasure,
00:53:26that's probably the only part of the handicapping equation in that race I got right.
00:53:30But Arcangelo, clearly the best horse, and I agree, Bill,
00:53:34that he's at the top of the heap right now in the three-year-old division.
00:53:37And given the overall status of the Breeders' Cup Classic division,
00:53:42I put him number two behind Guadalbarrio, but I could easily see him as number one.
00:53:48Mary Hirsch at age 22 won the 1935 Travers.
00:53:52But Randy Moss, you already knew that, didn't you?
00:53:54That's the rabbit hole.
00:53:57I didn't have the date, no.
00:53:59Yes, but congratulations to Jenna Antonucci.
00:54:02And hey, you know, it was similar to Belmont Day.
00:54:05Remember, a horse broke down that day, but that was quickly forgotten.
00:54:08I wouldn't say quickly forgotten, but it was the joy of Arcangelo
00:54:12and Jenna Antonucci was the bigger story of the day.
00:54:15So she has maybe on two occasions now helped turn a very ugly day into something less ugly.
00:54:22So Jenna, thank you.
00:54:24Oh, one more thing about Arcangelo.
00:54:26I mean, how cool is that?
00:54:28I mean, unfortunately, we lost Arrogate, but for Arcangelo to win
00:54:33and basically kind of do what Arrogate did, although no one will ever do that again.
00:54:36He was simply brilliant in his Travers win.
00:54:39But just a terrible shame that we lost him so early.
00:54:42He's from his second crop, just three crops of racing age for Arrogate.
00:54:47Yeah, and while Mike Rapoli had a brilliant two-year-old win this past weekend,
00:54:51I mean, disappointment with both Forte and Nest.
00:54:54Nest, I thought in the personal incident on Friday was really disappointing.
00:54:57I thought, you know, she, sort of like Forte, kind of had dead aim at the top of the stretch.
00:55:03But she turned out to be disappointing.
00:55:06Yeah, big win, though, for Judd Mott and Brad Koch.
00:55:10Yeah, Nest looked like she hated every minute of it.
00:55:14I'm going to put a line through Nest, but then add on the Koch sauce.
00:55:20She was good.
00:55:21Idiomatic was excellent, able to control the pace, but ran a heck of a race.
00:55:27So, yeah.
00:55:29In this week's Saratoga Minute, TD and producer Katie Petruniak
00:55:32and photographer Sarah Andrew were on site the morning after Archangelo's Travers win,
00:55:38when Jenna Antonucci and her team launched that freshly painted Travers canoe
00:55:46into Saratoga's infield pond.
00:55:48Let's take a look.
00:56:02Oh, God, I love this more than anything else.
00:56:33You guys have no idea.
00:56:34It gives my life new purpose.
00:56:37And I needed it.
00:56:38The guy who hates the camera was on the boat.
00:56:40This is the best thing that ever happened.
00:56:49The Saratoga Minute brought to you by Naira Bets.
00:56:52You can sign up now for Naira Bets and get a matching deposit of up to $200.
00:56:56It works like this.
00:56:57Just make a deposit within 30 days of signing up for your account.
00:57:01Bet twice the amount of your initial deposit,
00:57:04and you will receive a wagering credit for the amount of that initial deposit.
00:57:08Again, up to $200 to sign up.
00:57:12Use promo code SPA200 and get your deposit matched today.
00:57:17Quality Road.
00:57:18Proving lanes ends.
00:57:20Tried and true stallion making tradition.
00:57:22A tradition that leads to success for our partners and our stallions.
00:57:26Quality Road has sired multiple Eclipse Award and Grade 1 winners,
00:57:30including champion two-year-old Colt Corniche,
00:57:33champion two-year-old Philly Caledonia Road,
00:57:36champion three-year-old Philly Abel Tasman,
00:57:39and multiple Grade 1 winner City of Light.
00:57:41He's a leader of his generation.
00:57:44Quality Road.
00:57:45A stallion that stands above the rest.
00:57:47The Lanes End Stallion of the Week is City of Light.
00:57:51City of Light is the sire of new TDN Rising Star fierceness.
00:57:55The micropoly homebred romped home in his debut.
00:57:59That was impressive.
00:58:00Really impressive.
00:58:01He won by no fewer lengths than 14 lengths on Friday.
00:58:05It's the second TDN Rising Star in a month for the sire
00:58:09after Benedetta took a Del Mar maiden race for owner Kaleem Shah.
00:58:14Fierceness' full brother, check this out,
00:58:17is scheduled to go under the hammer at Keeneland September as hip number 1,390.
00:58:25Lots of other big races on the Traverse card.
00:58:28The Forgo Ballerina Sword Dancer among four other Grade 1 races.
00:58:32A couple quick takes.
00:58:34Randy already mentioned how great Echo Zulu was in the Ballerina.
00:58:37She ran faster than Gunite did the boys in the Forgo.
00:58:41Gunite turns the tables on Elite Power.
00:58:44Didn't see that coming.
00:58:45Elite Power had won eight in a row.
00:58:48These two horses are obviously very evenly matched,
00:58:50and I guess it was just Gunite's turn.
00:58:52And one thing that I really noticed, how about the Sword Dancer?
00:58:56How much better are the European turf horses than our horses?
00:59:01Bolshoi Ballet wins the race.
00:59:03Okay, Aiden O'Brien, everything like that.
00:59:05He goes off at 5-1 and wins.
00:59:07Last time out, and granted, it's a big race,
00:59:10but in a Group 1 in Europe, the King George and Queen Elizabeth,
00:59:13he went off at 125-1, was six beaten, 21 lengths.
00:59:20He had lost six straight races since last running in the United States.
00:59:25You know, Aiden O'Brien's of the world and the Charlie Appleby's,
00:59:27they must think this is easy pickings,
00:59:29and it is with these horses when they come over for these races.
00:59:33Now, maybe that'll change when Up to the Mark gets back into the entries
00:59:36and runs against some of these guys, but boy, the Europeans have our number.
00:59:40But Randy, what stuck out to you on the undercard?
00:59:43Well, that was Bolshoi Ballet's first win since winning the Belmont Derby of 2021.
00:59:51He missed almost the entire year of 2022 with what Aiden O'Brien described as a setback,
00:59:56and so he finally gets into the winner's circle back in the United States.
01:00:00Buyer speed figure 107 for running away with the Sword Dancer.
01:00:04I want to get Zoe's opinion on this as well, about the four ago.
01:00:09Okay, I'm going to throw a little BS flag here on the notion that,
01:00:14it was a brilliant move by Tyler Gafleon to take Gunnite off the rail turning for home and
01:00:22bait Irat Ortiz through on the inside with elite power.
01:00:27Okay, first of all, the rail was not bad.
01:00:30It was not a deep rail.
01:00:32You have elite power boxed in behind you, turning for home.
01:00:37You don't willingly steer into the three path and allow elite power to cut the corner
01:00:43and drive up inside, okay?
01:00:46No, no.
01:00:48Now, elite power, sure.
01:00:50He had won most of his races on the outside.
01:00:52He'd never been in that position before.
01:00:53They didn't know if he would run okay down on the inside or not.
01:00:56But to me, it didn't matter.
01:00:58If elite power had come around, if elite power had...
01:01:02He had a chance, plenty of room on the inside if you watch the head-on replay,
01:01:06to get up on in there and catch Gunnite and outrun Gunnite.
01:01:10He just wasn't quite the same elite power that we had seen earlier during that winning streak.
01:01:16I think that's what it all came down to.
01:01:18A fairly soft pace by Gunnite.
01:01:20Excellent performance by him.
01:01:22But quite frankly, and this is...
01:01:26Unfortunately, we saw what happened on Saturday.
01:01:29To me, up to the 16th pole of the Allen Jerkins, I think New York Thunder had proven that he
01:01:36probably was going to win the Breeders' Cup sprint against either of these two horses.
01:01:40But unfortunately, that was not to be.
01:01:42But Zoe, what were your thoughts about what I just said,
01:01:45about the whole baiting of Ira Ed Ortiz to come through along the rail?
01:01:50Come on.
01:01:50I'm not buying it.
01:01:51And that race was won in the opening quarter, 23.16.
01:01:56Tyler did a magnificent job of slowing down the pace in a grade one race.
01:02:02And that's what got the win.
01:02:04I don't think elite power could catch him after that.
01:02:06He had so much left in the tank.
01:02:08He just ran away from elite power like he was tied to a tree.
01:02:13I think one thing that's maybe got lost in the whole shuffle of things is
01:02:17how good was Gunrunner on Saturday when you think about Gunnite by Gunrunner,
01:02:23Echo Zulu by Gunrunner, Disarm in the Travers by Gunrunner.
01:02:31How good is trainer Steve Asmussen?
01:02:34I pulled up some stats because I'm trying to be like Randy.
01:02:38Next week, I'll shave my head or something.
01:02:40But one thing that Steve is so damn good at, it looks good, Randy, is keeping horses good.
01:02:49Like, how does he keep these horses good and consistent at the highest level for so long?
01:02:55And Steve prides himself in that.
01:02:56I mean, you'll see one hit wonders come along all the time.
01:02:59The next start, you can't find them with a search warrant.
01:03:02But Steve consistently has these horses good.
01:03:05Gunnite, 19 starts, 9 wins, 6 seconds, 2 thirds.
01:03:11Echo Zulu, 11 wins, 11 starts, 9 wins, 1 third.
01:03:19And then you look at Gunrunner, 19 starts, 12 wins, 3 third place finishes.
01:03:25Rachel Alexandra, 19 starts, 13 wins, 5 second place finishes.
01:03:32Carlin, 16, 11, 2, 3.
01:03:35The guy is a genius at keeping good horses good.
01:03:38It's rare that you find a trainer that can keep horses good for as long as he does.
01:03:43And that is a huge credit to him and his team.
01:03:47I like that rabbit hole, Zoe.
01:03:48That's a good rabbit hole.
01:03:51But I mean, that is the key with him.
01:03:53That's why he's trained so many good horses consistently over the years.
01:03:58When they get good in the Aspenson barn, they stay good or they're retired.
01:04:03It's as simple as that.
01:04:05And how'd you like to be Ron Winchell right now?
01:04:07He brought us Cabot.
01:04:09Now he's brought us Gunrunner.
01:04:10And he's got Steve Aspenson to train for him.
01:04:13Yeah.
01:04:13And then one more note on Borsho Ballet.
01:04:15I actually bet on him because I remember him coming over to Belmont.
01:04:20I have never seen him look so good.
01:04:22He trained well.
01:04:23I saw him on the track one day and I'm like, who is that?
01:04:26Aidan always has the horse's breeding and the name on the pad.
01:04:31So I've got my binoculars.
01:04:32I'm up on the roof and I'm like, which one of Aidan's army is this?
01:04:36I'm like, that's Borsho Ballet.
01:04:38And I had to look him up because the entries weren't out.
01:04:40It seemed like 100 years ago he ran.
01:04:43I thought he was retired already because I didn't know he was coming over.
01:04:47And I watched him train.
01:04:48I'm like, he looks so good.
01:04:50He got a stellar ride from Johnny V.
01:04:53Had him up there in the hunt.
01:04:55That horse has never been in the hunt like that before.
01:04:58That was the difference maker.
01:04:59And plus the fact I don't think he's ever felt as good as he feels right now.
01:05:03And talk about gunrunner.
01:05:05How about the immortal Galileo?
01:05:07His 99th group grade one winner.
01:05:11Borsho Ballet.
01:05:13That's pretty amazing.
01:05:15I don't know, Randy.
01:05:15She's might have taken over your role.
01:05:18I know, I know.
01:05:19We're going to have to dig a little deeper next week.
01:05:22This will be a two hour podcast next week.
01:05:25All right.
01:05:26So the big racing coming up this weekend at Del Mar.
01:05:28The Pacific Classic at Saratoga.
01:05:30The Jockey Club Gold Cup.
01:05:32Jockey Club Gold Cup.
01:05:33Rattle and Roll and Proxy will probably be the two favorites.
01:05:37Another one of these historic New York races that there's just too many on the calendar.
01:05:41Horses don't run enough.
01:05:43Where is White Aberio in this race?
01:05:45He'd be three to five for a stinking million dollars and they don't want to have anything
01:05:48to do with it.
01:05:49I don't get it.
01:05:50But you know, it is what it is.
01:05:51Pacific Classic is interesting for a couple things because the favorites look like it'll
01:05:56be three year olds and Go Rocket Ride and Arabian Night.
01:05:59See how they stack up against the older horses.
01:06:01And let's not forget the Kentucky Downs meet starts this week.
01:06:05These numbers are staggering.
01:06:06They have 11 stakes races worth $1 million and more on Saturday.
01:06:13Gunrunner stakes, Randy, worth $1 million.
01:06:16The Music City stakes worth $1 million and the Mint Million stakes worth $2 million.
01:06:21As a horse player, there's nothing I quite look forward to more than playing Kentucky
01:06:25Downs.
01:06:25Just great racing there.
01:06:27Big fields and really wide open betting affairs.
01:06:31But that's the story of this weekend.
01:06:33What's on your agenda this weekend, Randy?
01:06:36Speaking of Ron Winchell, owner of Kentucky Downs, please fix your TV coverage, by the
01:06:41way.
01:06:41You've got all the money in the world.
01:06:43Fix the TV coverage of Kentucky Downs where we can actually see the races kind of up close
01:06:47and not switch 14 times.
01:06:50What I'm most interested in in the Pacific Classic is this.
01:06:53Bob Baffert has defunded, who's now going to try to bounce back from a disappointing
01:06:57performance.
01:06:58He had to be considered one of the top horses for the Breeders' Cup Classic because he's
01:07:03based in California and the Breeders' Cup will be run at Santa Anita this year, where
01:07:06he has excelled.
01:07:07But then last time he lays an egg.
01:07:10One of the reasons I thought he laid an egg in his last race is that he wasn't quite really
01:07:14from the start, but he wasn't as into the race early.
01:07:18As I think he likes to be.
01:07:20He is a front-running type of horse.
01:07:23And Baffert is also running Arabian Night.
01:07:26And what we saw from Arabian Night in the Haskell, if you recall, is that he didn't
01:07:30take very kindly to being raided back off the pace for the first time.
01:07:34He didn't relax very well at all.
01:07:36He got a little bullheaded.
01:07:38So you would have to think that the strategy would be to go with Arabian Night.
01:07:42But where does that leave defunded?
01:07:43Sitting right behind him?
01:07:44Possibly.
01:07:46It's going to be an interesting tactical thing.
01:07:48And I'm going to be curious, Zoe, if defunded can bounce back to his earlier form.
01:07:53I don't think he's going to beat Go Rocket Ride.
01:07:56Mandela is another trainer who's very good at keeping horses good when they're good.
01:08:01And I think he's finally got his number.
01:08:03He ran an amazing race in the Haskell and he completely put to bed Arabian Night.
01:08:09Now, Arabian Night's not going to be back there eating any kickback, which is fine.
01:08:13He's going to go.
01:08:14That is for sure.
01:08:15And we'll see how they play out.
01:08:18Looks like there'll be 11 in there.
01:08:19Maybe all of those won't go.
01:08:21But Go Rocket Ride, I think, is going to get the perfect trip under Hall of Fame of Mike
01:08:25Smith, who seemingly comes to life down there.
01:08:27It looks like Skinner will likely go in there.
01:08:30And then, you know, the old regulars, Tripoli, Stiletto Boy, still plugging along, getting
01:08:35a check.
01:08:35He's probably hit the board.
01:08:37He always does.
01:08:39It'll be a good race.
01:08:40It'll be a good betting race.
01:08:41That is one thing I'll be looking forward to in the Pacific Classic.
01:08:45And some sad news that just broke this week.
01:08:47Jonathan Shepard passed away on Sunday at age 82.
01:08:51And, you know, he had a career in Thoroughbred Racing, unlike anything we've seen from anybody
01:08:56else, where he, one, was a prolific winner, both over jumps and on the flat.
01:09:023,426 career wins, inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1990.
01:09:07And if you ever think, oh, he's just a jump trainer.
01:09:09He had two flat horses win Eclipse Awards, forever together, an informed decision.
01:09:14Some people might forget he was also the trainer of a pretty good sire.
01:09:18You might remember a horse by the name of Stormcat, trained by Jonathan Shepard.
01:09:23A wonderful gentleman and had a great career.
01:09:26And very sad to see him pass away this week.
01:09:29Yeah, you know, I didn't deal with him as an owner, obviously, like George Strawbridge
01:09:35or others.
01:09:36But through the media, print and then TV media, I had the pleasure of making his acquaintance
01:09:43and dealing with him quite a number of times.
01:09:46And one of my all-time favorites.
01:09:49Such a nice man, such a gentleman, and obviously an incredibly talented horseman.
01:09:57If we could have bottled that old Etonian accent.
01:10:01I mean, he sounded like a commercial from the 1940s, you know, when those silent movies
01:10:06were done and they started finally talking.
01:10:09That is almost like they plucked Jonathan Shepard out of those movies and brought him
01:10:14to us.
01:10:15I first met him back in 2008.
01:10:17He came to Santa Anita with Forever Together for the Breeders' Cup Philly and Mare Turf.
01:10:22And I went by the barn and I see this old boy sitting on a bucket outside the barn,
01:10:27a turned up bucket.
01:10:29And he's got odd socks on.
01:10:31He's got a piece of baler twine around his waist, holding up his pants.
01:10:35And then he's braiding another three baler twine to make a lead rope.
01:10:38And I'm like, is this Jonathan Shepard?
01:10:42And we sat down and we probably chatted for an hour about everything.
01:10:47Just the classiest, nicest, true horseman, best guys in the game that you could ever
01:10:55come across.
01:10:55And he was a genius.
01:10:56The things he did at the farm with his flat horses, that he did with his jump horses.
01:11:01I went to his house here in Saratoga about five years ago and did a sit down interview
01:11:06with him for XBTV.
01:11:07And just walking around his house and seeing the pictures of Stormcat and him and his family
01:11:14and the jumping and the history, I just feel fortunate to have been able to meet him.
01:11:20He was a true gentleman of the game.
01:11:22One that we won't see again, unfortunately.
01:11:25We really won't.
01:11:26Speaking of Saratoga, he also had that remarkable run.
01:11:29He won at least one race at every Saratoga meet consecutively for 47 years.
01:11:3747 straight years won a race at Saratoga.
01:11:39So Jonathan Shepard passes this week at age 82 and he will be missed.
01:11:45The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by XBTV.
01:11:48This week's work of the week was the exciting TDN rising star Waze and Memes.
01:11:55She won her debut.
01:11:56She was no secret.
01:11:57She won by 12 plus lengths earlier in the Saratoga meet.
01:12:01The Clarivetch homebred, homebred.
01:12:03Chad Brown saying we can just breed our own now.
01:12:06She's by practical joke worked four furlongs in 49 and four under Peter, her regular exercise
01:12:13rider.
01:12:13He absolutely loves her.
01:12:16Over the Oklahoma training track on a very busy morning for trainer Chad Brown in preparation
01:12:21for the September 3rd spinaway stakes on closing weekend at Saratoga.
01:12:26She will be a force to be reckoned with.
01:12:29We'll be right back after this message from XBTV.
01:12:52All the thrills.
01:13:08Fraction of the bills.
01:13:13Experience the power of the partnership.
01:13:15Change your life, make new friends and compete at the highest level of thoroughbred racing.
01:13:23West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
01:13:27Visit westpointtb.com.
01:13:31And the TDN Writer's Room also brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds.
01:13:34Joining a West Point partnership can vault you into the world of instant camaraderie
01:13:38and look at last week as an example.
01:13:41West Point had a big weekend.
01:13:42First of all, the Charlestown Oaks won by Vava, trained by Cherie DeVoe.
01:13:48It was the horse's first graded win.
01:13:50That was a grade three stakes for Vava.
01:13:52Then on Sunday, a back to back two-year-old double at Ellis Park.
01:13:58First depiction on the turf and then the process in his debut on the dirt.
01:14:04So you had Vava, depiction and the process all acquired at the Kingman Center.
01:14:11All acquired at the Kingman September yearling sale and all picked out by West Point's bloodstock
01:14:16agent, David Ingordo of among many others of flight line fame.
01:14:26Well, that's a wrap on this week's show.
01:14:28Hopefully next week we will have more good things to talk about.
01:14:32Let's all keep our fingers crossed for that.
01:14:34I want to thank Randy Moss and Zoe Cabin, my cohorts here on the show,
01:14:38our Green Group Guests of the Week, Mark Cassie, our co-producers, Katie Petruniak and Anthony
01:14:43LaRocca, our editors, Ali LaRocca and Nathan Wilkinson.
01:14:48Thanks for tuning in to TDN Writer's Room Podcast.