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SportsTranscript
00:00:00The Big 3 NBA Podcast is powered by Prizepix and the Game Time app.
00:00:25Hello everyone, welcome to the Big 3 NBA Podcast.
00:00:28You have the usual crew today, me, Kwani Lewis, HR Blakely, Gary Washburn, but we have a special
00:00:33guest who I already apologized to in advance because she now has to deal with all three
00:00:38of us.
00:00:39Noah Dalzell, who is also with CLNS Media, thank you for being with us and again, best
00:00:46of luck.
00:00:47The only one you got to apologize for is Gary.
00:00:50He's the only one that's a problem.
00:00:51Everyone else is good.
00:00:52That's true.
00:00:53Gary's the problem child.
00:00:54That's all.
00:00:55That's true.
00:00:56Yeah.
00:00:57I mean, I'm excited to be here.
00:01:00She says that now.
00:01:01All right.
00:01:02Let's, let's just start back at that.
00:01:04If Sherrod says, see, the thing is, he's about to lie.
00:01:08Now, you know what's going to happen.
00:01:11He's going to say it and then we're going to be like, here we go.
00:01:13The thing is, when he does that, it's game coming.
00:01:17We need like a cheat sheet.
00:01:19Like more people.
00:01:20Sherrod, cheat sheet.
00:01:21I'm going to have to go back and watch some of our summer league content now, Sherrod.
00:01:26He's lying to you?
00:01:27Yeah.
00:01:28See, the thing is.
00:01:29Yeah.
00:01:30See what happened was.
00:01:31Yeah.
00:01:32All right.
00:01:33So last week, let's get into it.
00:01:35So last week, right before this big news drop, we were talking about O'Shea Brissett and
00:01:41whether or not the Celtics were going to keep his contract.
00:01:44He had hoped that they would.
00:01:45But the day after we found out that Lonnie Walker was signed by the Celtics and Washburn
00:01:51actually tossed it out on our podcast, talking about the fact that he would be a good addition
00:01:56to the Celtics roster.
00:01:58But I guess I'll start with Noah first.
00:02:01Are you surprised that they made this move?
00:02:04I'm surprised that Lonnie Walker can't get a contract anywhere just because, you know,
00:02:09he's just had more production than a lot of other guys that have signed longer term, more
00:02:13secure deals.
00:02:14And then I don't know.
00:02:15I mean, this sounds like one of those things that there's a really good chance that he's
00:02:18not actually signed to the 15th roster spot at the end of the day.
00:02:21So I'm mostly curious about what is what is it about him that is not mainstream knowledge
00:02:26that we're missing?
00:02:28Is it a locker room thing?
00:02:29Is it a defensive thing?
00:02:30Is it just, you know, does he have a bad agent and he's just made it played his cards poorly?
00:02:34Like, I don't know what it is, but that was the part that was most surprising to me.
00:02:37And then seeing that he actually got signed when I got the notification, I was like, OK,
00:02:42finally, I think just that day, like a highlight video of his was circulating on Twitter.
00:02:46So it was like very front of mind and then not surprised that something took the chance
00:02:50because they don't really have anything to lose here.
00:02:52I guess I'm just curious about how this is going to play out and if there's something
00:02:55about him that is just not mainstream knowledge that we're missing.
00:03:00I think with Lonnie, it feels like this is almost like the insurance policy to back up
00:03:06the insurance policy.
00:03:07When you think about the fact that he's sort of kind of but not really that 15th roster
00:03:12spot guy.
00:03:13And make no mistake, this Exhibit 10 contract.
00:03:15We're not talking about Taco Fall Exhibit 10 guy, someone who you really you just don't
00:03:20know if you can play at this level.
00:03:22With Lonnie, you know what you're getting.
00:03:24You're getting a good player who in a right situation can give you some juice off that
00:03:28bench.
00:03:29And I think he's a guy that you kind of keep around in case, you know, one of your core
00:03:33wings, you know, either, you know, suffers some type of injury or there's something that
00:03:36keeps them out for a significant period of time.
00:03:39And you've got a guy that you can turn to right up the road in Portland, Maine, who
00:03:43can give you, you know, give you some reduction that you're not wondering if he can actually
00:03:48contribute at this level.
00:03:50It's a smart play on the Celtics part without question.
00:03:54And to your point, Noah, I don't understand why the hell Lonnie isn't signed to a longer
00:04:00term deal with someone else.
00:04:02I mean, he's still relatively young.
00:04:04He doesn't have a long story past with injuries.
00:04:08I know things did not look great for him when he was in Brooklyn, but he's still a good
00:04:13player that can do a lot of things, I think, out there on the floor.
00:04:17So I'm just as shocked as anyone that he was available.
00:04:21But you know, I can't quite put my finger on why that guy was someone that they could
00:04:27actually add to the mix and do so without locking up that 15th roster spot, which to
00:04:32me is the genius behind this move.
00:04:34Gary, before we hear your thoughts now, let's hear what you had to say last week.
00:04:39I mean, there's a group of guys out there, Lonnie Walker, who, you know, to me, that
00:04:46be a good fit.
00:04:47I mean, that's a guy who could get buckets, you know, only 26 years old and a score.
00:04:52I mean, that's a guy, if I'm the Celtics, I'd take a flyer on him.
00:04:55All right, Gary.
00:04:56So now that the move is official, what do you think about the Celtics bringing him up?
00:05:00Yeah, I was a little stunned because he was kind of the top free agent out there.
00:05:04I think the only remaining one is Isaac O'Connell, who's on a restricted free agent with Cleveland
00:05:10and restricted free agency has basically died with this new CBA.
00:05:14So no one, like, remember Grant Williams was a restricted free agent last year.
00:05:20So Lonnie Walker was like the top guy.
00:05:23The rest of the guy, like Marcus Morris, guys who have had either or have a lot of tread
00:05:29on the tires or maybe an issue here or there.
00:05:32He's 25 years old, scored a lot per minute off the bench for Brooklyn.
00:05:37I mean, I saw him on the meetings against the Celtics and he was putting up buckets
00:05:42and he was getting to the rim.
00:05:44He's still a great athlete.
00:05:47I don't think he's filled this potential.
00:05:48I think in San Antonio, it just didn't work out.
00:05:52I know he went through some personal stuff there, kind of, you know, had some issues
00:05:56there off the floor.
00:05:57He hasn't done anything bad, but just tried to find, was finding himself in San Antonio.
00:06:02Then he went to the Lakers and everybody goes in and out of the Lakers, so you can't really
00:06:06count that.
00:06:07And Brooklyn's kind of starting over, but it was, it's kind of interesting, like, you
00:06:11know, what the, I'm not surprised that he signed, that would sign a guaranteed deal,
00:06:16but the fact that it's a training camp deal, the Celtics have to be making him some promises.
00:06:21Obviously, I think he gets a couple of hundred thousand if he doesn't make the roster or
00:06:24goes to Maine.
00:06:27But I just think you got to add him to this roster spot.
00:06:30I just don't think there's anyone like him over O'Shea Brissett is a serious upgrade.
00:06:37I mean, that's just, it's unquestionable.
00:06:40O'Shea couldn't score.
00:06:41O'Shea's offensively was really, really, you know, just like most Syracuse players, was
00:06:46just, he was terrible offensively.
00:06:48I'm just, that's all.
00:06:49But he did have a job in the NBA, which says a little bit more than a lot of guys in Calvary.
00:06:53That's another story.
00:06:54Oh my God.
00:06:55I can't even talk with my BC.
00:06:56He wasn't terrible.
00:06:57He wasn't terrible.
00:06:58Not BC.
00:06:59With the football team.
00:07:00I mean, recently.
00:07:01Yeah.
00:07:02You got swag right now.
00:07:04But I just think, I just think filling that roster spot with Lonnie Walker and the Celtics
00:07:09have needed offense off the bench for years.
00:07:12Like I always said, like they needed a, like not Jamal Crawford himself, cause he was a
00:07:17little old, but a Jamal Crawford type, a guy like a Jordan Crawford, maybe several years
00:07:22ago, a guy who could come off the bench and hey, try to play defense because you go, you
00:07:27have four of the defenders on the floor that can maybe make up, but a guy who can just
00:07:30fill it up off the, off the bench, kind of like a Malcolm Brogdon did a little bit.
00:07:35They could really use that.
00:07:36And I just think this guy fills that role in the back court because you know, you don't
00:07:41want to put that kind of pressure on Peyton Pritchard, although Peyton kind of had moments
00:07:45of that.
00:07:46But I think it's a great signing.
00:07:48I would hope that he'd make the team and be that 15th guy and you could figure out
00:07:52what to do with Luke Cornette or, you know, guys, if you need to create another roster
00:07:58spot, but I think you got to go into the season with Lonnie Walker on your roster.
00:08:04So it's obvious from all you guys said, and again, what you said last week, Gary, why
00:08:09he should be on this roster, but how realistic is it for a 10 day exhibition contract to
00:08:14turn into a real one?
00:08:16There's got to be some type of, to me, agreement beyond just like you're trying out, kid.
00:08:21Like he's not going to be, well, what's the other guy that blew his knee out?
00:08:24Jay Scrubb.
00:08:25Huh?
00:08:26Jay Scrubb.
00:08:27Yeah.
00:08:28Jay Scrubb.
00:08:29He's not going to be Jay Scrubb.
00:08:30Like he's not going to be like, like this dude's a proven NBA player, right?
00:08:35So this is not a guy who's stepping in like, okay, dude, you're headed to Maine or like
00:08:39when they had Denzel Valentine and guys like that who were basically 4A players, G League
00:08:44players who could play here and there in the NBA, but not much like Lonnie Walker is
00:08:50a guy who could be your ninth man off the bench, especially in the backcourt.
00:08:54Does that threaten maybe Hayden's minutes?
00:08:56Who knows?
00:08:57But at this point you're trying to go back to back.
00:08:59You ain't worried about egos.
00:09:00Like guys who have to sacrifice something.
00:09:02And if you want to load your roster with what New York did, with what Philadelphia did,
00:09:07everybody's coming after the Celtics.
00:09:10This is needed.
00:09:12So I think it's a great chance for him to make the team.
00:09:15There's got to be an agreement.
00:09:16His agent would not just have him in a training camp deal, but there's got to be some type
00:09:20of promise there.
00:09:21If not, you go to a bad team, get a minimum deal and make 3 million and boost your stock
00:09:28for next year.
00:09:29If you can just bet on yourself, if you don't want a long-term deal.
00:09:32I mean, like Steve Mihalic signed a four-year deal with Utah.
00:09:39I think the first two years guaranteed.
00:09:43So if Steve could sign a four-year deal, Lonnie could get a year, right?
00:09:49What's going on here?
00:09:50But to Noah's point, I think that 10 days will give the Celtics enough time, hopefully,
00:09:54to figure out why exactly he hasn't been on a roster, if there is anything underlying
00:10:00as well.
00:10:01Hopefully.
00:10:02All right.
00:10:03We have a new segment on this podcast.
00:10:04It's called Fall Fire It Up.
00:10:06It's a series that we're going to start from now until the start of training camp, and
00:10:10we will break down the key pieces of the Celtics, hopefully, getting banner 19.
00:10:15I forgot they already got 18.
00:10:17But first up, Joe Mazzulla, Gary's guy, his leadership, specifically, where are the areas
00:10:27of growth that you all think are most important for him this season?
00:10:30Go ahead, Gary.
00:10:31Start a bunch of guys.
00:10:32I'll jump at one.
00:10:33I'm not starting with this one.
00:10:34No, I'm not.
00:10:35He said, I'm not.
00:10:36Noah, as our guest, please start with your segment.
00:10:38Noah, Gary, then Sherrod.
00:10:39Sherrod's last.
00:10:40Now he's going to pass.
00:10:41Sandwich him in the middle.
00:10:42I don't know.
00:10:43I think it's tough.
00:10:44I always feel like it's hard, at least from the bead writer's perspective, to really evaluate
00:10:52coaches.
00:10:53Especially at my point in my career, I was on the bead for one year, I feel like it's
00:10:58really hard to be able to gauge what you're seeing on the court and how that's connected
00:11:02to the actual coach's performance.
00:11:03And it's really easy to things like timeouts and rotations, I feel like, are the things
00:11:07that we can see.
00:11:08But outside of that, we're kind of looking for clues, and I feel like I take a lot of
00:11:11what I concluded about Joe from what the player said, and just the way that they talked about
00:11:15him and things like that.
00:11:16So to that point, I think the one thing that I would love to see is maybe a little bit
00:11:24more in the earlier parts of the season of just taking risks on different players off
00:11:28the bench.
00:11:30And I think that they will, just because I do feel like getting rest for guys like
00:11:33Drew Holliday and Derek White and Jason Tatum and all those guys, getting them off nights,
00:11:38I think that'll happen.
00:11:39But I would love to see him take more chances and instill more confidence in some of those
00:11:43lower bench players.
00:11:44Because by the playoffs, there was a really fixed number of players that were for sure
00:11:49not going to be in the rotation.
00:11:50And then it stood out in some series, like against Indiana, where all of a sudden they
00:11:54have 10 guys that are ready to go.
00:11:56Boston really didn't.
00:11:58That was one of the few knocks I think that you can say on that team, because they were
00:12:00obviously very deep and the bench was very effective.
00:12:02So that's maybe a wishlist item, because behind the scenes, I don't know exactly where, I'm
00:12:08sure he has things that he needs to work on, but it would just be harder for me to pinpoint
00:12:11those.
00:12:12That's real.
00:12:13I'm going to say that Joe needs to be just as disciplined and locked in for this year
00:12:20as he was last year, because there's that natural lax that you're going to have.
00:12:25Now, who knows what Jason and Jalen will be like going into this season.
00:12:29They might be super motivated, but you come off a championship, you're going to take a
00:12:35step.
00:12:36Look at the Denver Nuggets.
00:12:37There hasn't been a repeat champion since the Warriors, and everyone's coming after
00:12:42you.
00:12:43The Knicks are going to try to send a message on that opening night game.
00:12:46The Sixers are going to try to do the same thing on Christmas.
00:12:49If you're Joe, you've got to motivate your guys, especially without Porzingis for the
00:12:52first two, three months of the season, to be ready for every challenge.
00:12:57Even Washington, Detroit, even the bad teams, because this is their Super Bowl, and so you've
00:13:03got to spend training camp instilling in these guys, okay, you've gotten over to the mountaintop.
00:13:08Let's try to make history.
00:13:10Let's try to be the first Celtics team to repeat since 68-69, right?
00:13:16Since Bill Russell was the coach, and Bill Russell was a player coach.
00:13:20Let's do something special here.
00:13:23Byrne and McHale and Parrish, those guys won three in five years.
00:13:27They didn't repeat.
00:13:29The big three with Garnett, Allen, and Pierce won one championship, went to game seven of
00:13:34another.
00:13:35Let's make history.
00:13:36If you're Joe, you try to push that on those guys, you try to be as intense, and try to
00:13:41think of different ways to motivate to get your guys to start punching first, because
00:13:47the one thing that we all kind of have a what if is that 08-09 season when I think they
00:13:53started out like 29-3, and they were knocking people out, and then Garnett got hurt in Utah,
00:13:59and they were never the same, and they lost to the magic.
00:14:02If that team had stayed healthy, Garnett had stayed healthy, that might have been a repeat.
00:14:08The Celtics came out with the right mindset, got those guys ready to come out saying, hey,
00:14:13they're all coming after you.
00:14:15You are on their ball.
00:14:17You're on their dartboard.
00:14:18You're on blue and two.
00:14:20Yes.
00:14:21Play like your hair's on fire.
00:14:24I think, also in referring to what Noah said, not necessarily playing everybody 43 minutes,
00:14:32like burning them out, but using your depth, but also having that motivation.
00:14:37I think Joe needs to be, and I'm sure he will be, I talked to him a week after the season
00:14:42ended, and he was already trying to figure out ways to keep the guys motivated and make
00:14:46sure they're ready for this season, because this will be more difficult than the last
00:14:51one.
00:14:52Getting back to the mountaintop with teams coming at them will be more difficult.
00:14:56I expect Joe, and understand Joe, he's going to be more intense.
00:15:00Now, how will that reflect with us?
00:15:02I don't know.
00:15:03Will we be a little bit more defensive and sensitive?
00:15:06We'll see, but I do think Joe's going to have some different ways to motivate his guys to
00:15:12punch first and get off to a good start and not be fourth in the East, because you just
00:15:18kind of chilled and then do that, try to flip the switch in April.
00:15:23He'll get those guys ready.
00:15:24That's what I expect.
00:15:25I think the effort to do that, Gary, is going to be there.
00:15:28I don't think there's any question that Joe understands that sense of urgency that they
00:15:32need to bring with a consistent basis, but these are NBA champions, and historically,
00:15:39NBA champions, whether it's a conscious or subconscious thing, they start playing the
00:15:43fat and happy game, where they feel that, you know, we won a championship.
00:15:47We didn't play perfect basketball last year, but ultimately, we got it done when we needed
00:15:51to.
00:15:52I worry that Joe is not going to get them to understand the need to have that urgency
00:15:57all season long.
00:15:58I worry that this team will lose a couple games and guys will be bothered by that, but
00:16:03they won't necessarily have that sense of urgency to flip things around and not wait
00:16:09until March or April to try and get things going.
00:16:12They need to play with the same level of focus and intensity, if not more so, this year than
00:16:17they did last year.
00:16:18I think Joe is going to do what he thinks will help that, but I don't know how his message
00:16:23is going to resonate this year.
00:16:25Last year, Joe had a captive audience because they all had the same goal, to win a championship,
00:16:31and while that same goal this year is to do the same, I'm not convinced that they're going
00:16:36to be able to hit the ground running and be on the same page from day one.
00:16:39I think Joe is going to go in thinking, this has to be a step-by-step, play with an edge,
00:16:45play with a sense of urgency, night in, night out thing.
00:16:48I think that there may be little subgroups on this roster who think, well, yeah, I'm
00:16:53going to try to play well, but I know that what I do in April and March, that's what
00:16:59this is really about.
00:17:01That's when it's time to start locking in and winning a championship.
00:17:05Gary, we've seen enough teams that play that way, but by the time you get to March, it's
00:17:09too late.
00:17:10It's too late.
00:17:11I've got a question for you, Sherrod.
00:17:12What's that?
00:17:13I've got a question for you.
00:17:14I've got a question.
00:17:15You covered the 0-4.
00:17:16Question for the peanut gallery.
00:17:17Let's go.
00:17:18No, no.
00:17:19This is actually your category.
00:17:21You covered the 0-4 Pistons.
00:17:23The 0-5 Pistons lost in Game 7.
00:17:26What was their approach?
00:17:27Because they damn near did it.
00:17:29If somebody had decided to guard Robert Horry in Game 7, they might have had back-to-back.
00:17:34Stop talking about my guy Rasheed Abdul-Wali.
00:17:37If somebody had figured out that Robert Horry is a shooter, like I don't know who, like
00:17:43Robert Horry hits big shots.
00:17:45That's what he does.
00:17:46And you do not leave him open.
00:17:48The only egregious thing worse you could do is leave Steph open in the gold medal game.
00:17:54But you left Robert Horry open.
00:17:56If you do, if you don't, you probably go back-to-back.
00:17:59But what was the 0-4-0-5 Pistons approach?
00:18:03Because they almost got there.
00:18:05You know, San Antonio was a great team and San Antonio deserved it, but the Pistons got
00:18:09this close.
00:18:10Well, part of what really fueled them was similar to what we're talking about with Jalen
00:18:16and Jason.
00:18:17That is, their best players came in with a different kind of edge based on things that
00:18:21had nothing to do with them and everything to do with circumstances around them.
00:18:25If you recall back then, Larry Brown, it wasn't clear whether Larry Brown was going to be
00:18:29coming back as a head coach.
00:18:31And the players took that personally, like, dude, we just won a championship with you
00:18:34and you're not sure you're going to be with us?
00:18:36You know what?
00:18:37We're just going to go out and ball out.
00:18:38And we're just going to get that second chip, whiff it without you.
00:18:41That was kind of their attitude.
00:18:43Chauncey was a big part of that, as you know, Ben Wallace, you know, my man Rasheed, Abdul
00:18:48Wallace.
00:18:49And the thing about it, also the other thing that they did that I thought was interesting
00:18:54was that they added a player who was even thirstier for a championship than they were
00:18:59when they added Antonio McDyess, who had never won a title.
00:19:02So they, and they did it similar to what the Celtics have done in the offseason, is that
00:19:06you add pieces that augment what you already have in place, because that Pistons team pretty
00:19:12much brought back the band the following year, similar to what Boston has done.
00:19:15Not everyone, but they brought back most of the guys, but they played with a different
00:19:19edge.
00:19:20And that's the thing that I think separates teams that are going to position themselves
00:19:24to do it from those who talk about positioning themselves.
00:19:27When you look at Denver, for example, the fact that you didn't bring back Bruce Brown,
00:19:31we all knew them getting back there would be difficult.
00:19:34But when you don't bring back the probably the most versatile and impactful player, not
00:19:38named Jokic on your squad, you're probably going to suffer.
00:19:43And you look at the Celtics this year, they have wisely brought back all the key contributors
00:19:48to them winning a championship.
00:19:50And one question that a lot of us had was that, man, it sure would be nice if they were
00:19:54able to get somebody who could get buckets off the bench.
00:19:57They re-signed Hauser, which I thought was a great deal.
00:20:00And now they got a guy in Lonnie Walker who is the insurance plan behind the insurance
00:20:04plan.
00:20:05Even though he's not that 15th guy, they can make that happen if they need to.
00:20:09They're in position to do that, but they're not totally committed to that.
00:20:13So I think the Celtics have done the things that you're supposed to do to position yourself
00:20:19to win another chip.
00:20:20But the big thing is, can your best players come back with the kind of motivation to repeat?
00:20:25And when you look at Tatum not playing, you know, the whole Olympic kerfuffle that he
00:20:31was involved with, where he hardly played, and then Jalen Brown not even being on the
00:20:35damn team after getting Eastern Conference Final MVP, NBA Finals MVP.
00:20:39They couldn't have sent him a text message.
00:20:41They couldn't have emailed him, man.
00:20:43They couldn't have done nothing like Jalen.
00:20:45I mean...
00:20:46You know, they couldn't have done nothing.
00:20:48Right.
00:20:49And, you know, the fact that...
00:20:50They could have paged him.
00:20:52You know, this was before your time, Noah.
00:20:54They could have paged him.
00:20:55They could have emailed him.
00:20:56We got music out of it.
00:20:57They could have sent him a telegraph.
00:20:58They could have sent him a telegram.
00:20:59They could have sent him a letter.
00:21:00Like, they just go...
00:21:01They just...
00:21:02Something.
00:21:03They ain't gonna even reach out to him.
00:21:04You're not on the team.
00:21:05Thank you, and have a good day.
00:21:06Derek White, what up, brother?
00:21:07Come on out.
00:21:08No, God, it was like, wait, hold on a second.
00:21:09Hold on.
00:21:10Hey, Derek, you're on the team.
00:21:11Hold up, I'm not on the team.
00:21:12I'm not on the team.
00:21:13I'm not on the team.
00:21:14I'm not on the team.
00:21:15I'm not on the team.
00:21:16No, wait, hold on a second.
00:21:17Hold on.
00:21:18Hey, Derek.
00:21:19You're on the team.
00:21:20Derek's on the team.
00:21:21Hold up.
00:21:22I got another call coming in.
00:21:23Jay...
00:21:24Oh, no, no.
00:21:25Hold up.
00:21:26Put him on hold.
00:21:27Put him on hold.
00:21:28I'll get back to him.
00:21:29So, that's...
00:21:30And to me, that's the thing that I think is scary about the Celtics is that they have
00:21:34legitimate beef, their top players, about playing with an attitude and attitude and
00:21:39an edge.
00:21:40And that's something that most NBA champions don't have.
00:21:42Because when you're at the top of the mountaintop, there really isn't a whole lot for you to
00:21:46be upset and angry about when that happens.
00:21:48But Jalen Brown being pissed?
00:21:50Yep.
00:21:51Kato being pissed?
00:21:52Yep.
00:21:53And the thing about it, because those guys are the leaders of your team, you know what's
00:21:57going to happen.
00:21:58If my leaders are pissed, what am I going to be?
00:22:01I'm going to be pissed, too.
00:22:02So you're going to have a team, I think, most of the season that is going to play with an
00:22:05edge.
00:22:06I would not be surprised.
00:22:07Last year, they beat like three teams by 50 or more points.
00:22:10I would not be surprised if that number goes to 60.
00:22:12I mean, it goes to six this year.
00:22:1360?
00:22:14I'm like, wow, Shiraz.
00:22:15No, 60.
00:22:16They ain't going to do that.
00:22:17Don't deal with it.
00:22:1882 games.
00:22:19They're going to do that.
00:22:20Look, they're going to play with a different edge.
00:22:22They are absolutely going to play with a much sharper blade.
00:22:25And I pity the teams they're going to face, because you're not getting a typical defending
00:22:30NBA champion.
00:22:31You're getting a team that's going to have that, we have not won a chip in 35 years thirst.
00:22:37And as talented as they are, go ahead, go to Philly.
00:22:44Go to New York.
00:22:45Uh-uh.
00:22:46Not happening.
00:22:47South is going to repeat.
00:22:50Wow.
00:22:51OK.
00:22:52Yeah, I said it.
00:22:53Yeah, you said it.
00:22:54Money's on it.
00:22:55I like it.
00:22:56I like to hear it.
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00:24:23All right, let's go home.
00:24:26This is a little unconventional turn from our usual topic, but we have to talk about
00:24:32the hottest name in pro basketball right now.
00:24:35Can you guess who I'm talking about?
00:24:37It ain't Gary Washburn.
00:24:39I'm crying.
00:24:40It's Kaylin Clark.
00:24:41Actually, if you're on X or Twitter, you probably...
00:24:44I know people have muted her name because she has become such a divisive figure in sports
00:24:50unintentionally.
00:24:51She seems like an unproblematic person, and yet her name has been dragged through the
00:24:55mud and beyond over the last, I mean, honestly, since the season began.
00:25:00The Indiana Fever, the hottest team in the WNBA since the All-Star break, right now,
00:25:06as we're reporting, they have won four straight games, eight out of the last 10.
00:25:10They're sixth in the league right now, where the top eight are the ones that make it to
00:25:14the playoffs.
00:25:15But rookie year, we're talking about her.
00:25:18We've been talking about her.
00:25:19And of course, also Angel Reese is another name that people have been talking about as
00:25:22well for the rookie of the year conversation.
00:25:26League MVP is a conversation that I think has made it even spicier.
00:25:31So I'll just, off the top, what do you all think about Kaylin's game and now being considered
00:25:37as one of the best in the league, or being talked about, at least?
00:25:41Get us started, Noah.
00:25:44Yeah.
00:25:45I mean, I'm a huge fan of Kaylin's game, and I think that there's a lot of, I mean, anytime
00:25:49you bring her up now, it's like there's like 400 layers to what I feel like.
00:25:53Like a political party.
00:25:54Yeah.
00:25:55No, seriously.
00:25:56I mean, it feels like there's Kaylin, the basketball player.
00:25:58There's how people respond to her in the media.
00:26:01There's how the fan base that she has, which is not necessarily a reflection of her.
00:26:05And even that, it's a whole thing of her actual fans and then people that have kind of latched
00:26:10on to her as a political figure for really confusing reason to me, at least.
00:26:15But I think that she has a game that it kind of reminds me of Steph Curry in the sense
00:26:19that like he came in with this game that was different than other NBA players.
00:26:24And everybody knows, you know, he revolutionized the game, but he really made like, he's the
00:26:28reason that I fell in love with basketball.
00:26:29Like Steph Curry was the reason that I fell in love to another level, I think, of, you
00:26:33know, just how aesthetically pleasing it was to watch in a way that I don't think like
00:26:38other great players have that same aesthetic.
00:26:40And a lot of what her successes and her popularity, I do think just comes down to the fact that
00:26:44she shoots threes farther than any NBA player.
00:26:47And she throws passes that are, you know, ridiculous.
00:26:50And that combination alongside the fact that she had such a great college career and came
00:26:56into the league and is now really meeting all expectations, if not surpassing them,
00:27:00has created a world where she's very, very popular.
00:27:04I don't think there's any competition anymore for rookie of the year, in my opinion.
00:27:07I think that that ended a long time ago, if there was ever really a close race.
00:27:11And I'm a big Angel Reese fan too, and I think that the way that her rebounding discourse
00:27:15has been diminished as a whole other discussion that we could have.
00:27:18But as far as best player in the world, though, Caitlin Clark might be the most fun player
00:27:24to watch, but I don't know that it would be fair at all to compare what she's accomplished
00:27:28this year to what Asia Wilson has accomplished this year.
00:27:30And it's just something that comes down to, there's a lot of reasons why that might be
00:27:34the case.
00:27:35And one of them, I think, is just the fact that post players in general are like, people
00:27:38get less excited about them.
00:27:39And then especially on the women's side, you're comparing it to the men's side.
00:27:42And it's like, she can't dunk, she can't do flashy things in the paint that men's players
00:27:46can do.
00:27:47Whereas Caitlin Clark, there's more carryover between the men's games.
00:27:50If you're watching women's basketball from the men's game lens, you're going to appreciate
00:27:54Asia's game less.
00:27:55But she has been by far, and it's not even close, the most dominant player in the WNBA
00:27:59this year.
00:28:00Yeah.
00:28:01I mean, here's the thing about just the whole Caitlin Clark discourse.
00:28:07The one thing that people who have been following the WNBA or people who are casually following
00:28:12don't seem to understand and embrace is the fact that she had one of the most difficult
00:28:17schedules at the start of the season than any superstar coming into the WNBA has ever
00:28:21had.
00:28:22You look at all the big dogs in the WNBA and Caitlin had, that was her baptism by fire.
00:28:29And so, of course, she put up big numbers and she put up bad big numbers like turnovers.
00:28:34But then as the schedule leveled out and she started playing and leading her team and becoming
00:28:39more familiar with them and her coach figuring out how to better utilize her skill set, because
00:28:45I thought early on they just wanted her to be a shooter.
00:28:47And I'm thinking like, did y'all watch her play in college?
00:28:49I mean, she was dropping some sweet and sick dimes, too.
00:28:53That's a big part of her game that she never gets enough credit for.
00:28:56Now you're starting to see more of that.
00:28:57But the bottom line is this.
00:28:59As the season progressed, her team started winning.
00:29:02They're one of the hottest teams, if not the hottest team.
00:29:04And that to me, more than anything else, locked up the Rookie of the Year award for her.
00:29:10The fact that she's putting up numbers, unprecedented numbers, and they're winning.
00:29:15There's five teams in the league that have a better record than them right now, whereas
00:29:19two or three weeks ago, they were near the bottom down with Dallas and teams like that.
00:29:24So she's winning, she's putting up big numbers, and she's making a difference, obviously from
00:29:30the jump on the league as a whole.
00:29:32But I still say Asia Wilson is the MVP this year.
00:29:36I've seen both of them play a ton of games.
00:29:39And the only way that I think that narrative could potentially change, and there's a chance
00:29:42that it could in a very tangible way, is if somehow between now and the end of the season,
00:29:48the Fever have a better record or as good a record as the Aces.
00:29:52Because that's very possible.
00:29:53Right now, Las Vegas has the fourth best record in the WNBA, and they're just two spots ahead
00:29:59of Indiana.
00:30:00So if that were to change, if all of a sudden Vegas went on a major slump, and the Fever
00:30:06and Indiana continue to surge, that gives, I think, those who are feeling, you know,
00:30:11Caitlyn is the best player, a legitimate case for that.
00:30:15But Asia Wilson is just different, yo.
00:30:19I mean, she's just ridiculously, ridiculously good.
00:30:27And so it's a toss-up in the minds of many people.
00:30:31But right now, I would give the edge to Asia just because I think that she's been consistently
00:30:35elite all year, even if her team hasn't necessarily been that.
00:30:39Whereas Caitlyn, I think, has gotten significantly better as the season has progressed and is
00:30:43trending in the right direction.
00:30:45But I can't ignore the fact that the first two, three, four weeks of the season, she
00:30:50wasn't very good.
00:30:51And to that extent, her schedule had a lot to do with it, the competition had a lot to
00:30:54do with that, her coach not knowing how to utilize her had a lot to do with that.
00:30:58But that being said, you still, at the end of the day, you have to be the one to make
00:31:03plays.
00:31:04And she didn't make as many good ones early on.
00:31:06She's doing a lot of that now.
00:31:08You've got to give her props.
00:31:09But Asia, to me, Asia is still the MVP.
00:31:12Yeah, I agree, totally.
00:31:17I just think this whole season is exposed with women's basketball.
00:31:23It's just a lot of issues in women's basketball that nobody, and hopefully, Noah, I read your
00:31:28story.
00:31:29It was a great story the other day.
00:31:30No one's taking on these issues because, unfortunately, I think people who cover the women's basketball
00:31:36in many cases feel like they have to promote the sport.
00:31:38And there's a lot of issues, and what Caitlin has done has brought a lot of race issues
00:31:43because it was kind of the underlying murmurs when Sabrina Inescu was kind of pushed as
00:31:49the face of the league, right?
00:31:51And people were like, well, why her?
00:31:52Why not Asia?
00:31:54Why not Jewel Lloyd?
00:31:57Why not Chelsea Gray?
00:31:59And I think that, unfortunately, to Caitlin's, it's not her fault.
00:32:05She is a player that people, I just think this is not a white girl thing.
00:32:09This is a Caitlin thing.
00:32:11Because when Breanna Stewart entered the league, Breanna Stewart didn't get this much attention.
00:32:17Not even Sabrina Inescu.
00:32:18And I've known, I follow Sabrina.
00:32:20Sabrina went to high school in the Bay Area.
00:32:23She like, Cal and Oregon were her final two schools.
00:32:26Unfortunately, she picked Oregon.
00:32:28Smart girl.
00:32:29Best decision she ever made.
00:32:31So I literally have known about Sabrina Inescu since she was in high school.
00:32:35And she went to Oregon, and people, oh, when she gets to the league, oh, she's gonna revolutionize
00:32:40the league.
00:32:41And she has.
00:32:42She's had a very good career, gold medalist.
00:32:44But she ain't Caitlin.
00:32:46Like this is a Caitlin Clark, and I don't know what it is besides, as Norton alluded
00:32:50to, the Steph factor, the 30-footers, the razzle-dazzle.
00:32:54So I just think, instead of the people pointing, oh, this is a white girl thing, or y'all are
00:32:59only supporting the straight white girl, it's just a Caitlin thing.
00:33:02And I think we have to kind of realize there's something special about her, that people are
00:33:07filling up 19,000-seat arenas in L.A. and places that don't have a huge W. They filled
00:33:16up the state.
00:33:17The Hawks don't fill up State Farm Arena in Atlanta.
00:33:20She filled up State Farm Arena last week in Atlanta for the Dream and Fever game.
00:33:26It's something there, and the WNBA needs to embrace it.
00:33:30That's the thing.
00:33:31Here it is.
00:33:32And you've got to give her her credit.
00:33:33And you've got to give Angel Reese her credit, because she is doing great things.
00:33:38And Camila Cardozo, it's an amazing class.
00:33:40The one great thing that, and I've written this before, that women's basketball finally
00:33:46did that men's haven is Mesh College in Pro.
00:33:52So by the time these gals, Paige Buckers, like, I don't know about you, Noah, I was
00:33:58like, when are you getting out of UConn?
00:34:00She is literally at the U.S. Open.
00:34:04She's everywhere.
00:34:05And it's like, wait a minute, she has a year left.
00:34:07Like, Juju Watkins, by the time she gets out of SC, we're going to be like, are you still
00:34:12there?
00:34:13Even though she'll go for four years.
00:34:14It was like Grant Hill.
00:34:15Remember when Grant Hill was at Duke, Sherrod, it was like, damn, Grant, because Grant went
00:34:20four years.
00:34:21Like, damn, Grant, you're still at Duke.
00:34:23And he was an all-time great player.
00:34:25But it's like, what the one thing we've done is women's basketball is meshed college and
00:34:31pro.
00:34:32So by the time these young ladies get out of college, we know who they are.
00:34:36We don't know none of the male draft class.
00:34:39We know, like, Alex Tsar, if I said name the top 10 drafted, you would be, I can't,
00:34:45I cannot name the-
00:34:46I just know that France had the number one pick, and that's crazy because-
00:34:48I cannot name the first 10 players drafted.
00:34:50I can throw the names out.
00:34:51I don't know where they're going, Reed Shepard, Dillingham, you know, but I don't know a lot
00:34:56of these guys.
00:34:57I've never seen them play with women, with Juju Watkins.
00:35:00We got at least two more years.
00:35:02Maybe she can come out after her junior year.
00:35:04Who knows what she's going to do?
00:35:06Paige Buckers, like, she's got one more year at UConn.
00:35:10Like, there are, like, by the time they get to the WNBA, they already have a personality.
00:35:15I think that's the great thing that helped this class is Angel already had, you know,
00:35:21she was Barbie, and Angel had marketing deals.
00:35:25Like Flo J. Johnson literally was in the All-Star game, as you saw Noah, at the Big Three.
00:35:30She's got two more years left at LSU.
00:35:32Like she is a celeb.
00:35:33She's a rapper.
00:35:35Like, we talked about this before, like, she's already a celeb and she's 20.
00:35:40Like we don't know any, what player, who's a top-ranked returning player in NCAA Basketball
00:35:47men's this year?
00:35:49Jesus.
00:35:50I don't, I don't, I have no idea, like, all the UConn players left, like, I have no idea
00:35:57who's like the number one, you know, Hooper Flagg, but he ain't played college yet.
00:36:02I'm talking about the returning, like, we don't know these people.
00:36:05In women's, we do, and that's enhanced the WNBA, and Caitlyn, and then the TV deal, showing
00:36:11the Final Four, like, like, all of that has come, and Caitlyn's been the top, and so has
00:36:19Angel Reese, and I think that's been good.
00:36:21I just think it's sad that some WNBA folks aren't embracing that, and they're picking
00:36:26sides, or, you don't, you don't give love, like, we, I think we all love Asia.
00:36:31Asia is unquestionably the MVP.
00:36:34She's the best player in the game.
00:36:35Will Caitlyn get votes, like, a fifth place, or, I don't know how many-
00:36:40Caitlyn gonna get votes.
00:36:41Yeah, she'll get a fifth place.
00:36:42That's what I think she's gonna get.
00:36:43Because I think Nicole here's gotta be second, right?
00:36:45And then, I don't know if you want Alyssa Thomas from the Connecticut, I don't know
00:36:50who'll be third.
00:36:51Three top, three top, four.
00:36:52Yeah, but Caitlyn's gonna get fourth, fifth place, or else, you know, somebody will vote
00:36:57her first, let's be honest, like, like, Asia ain't going unanimous.
00:37:02But for me, I just think it's sad, like, this whole thing with Cheryl Swoops and now
00:37:06Nancy Lieberman jumps in, like, like, we gotta embrace the, it's just, it's a Caitlyn thing.
00:37:13And she's great, Angel's great, everybody, there's a lot of great players.
00:37:18Let's love this, as opposed to, like, picking out who, well, you don't give her as much
00:37:22love as her, like, I think, like, like, Angel's just got a shoe deal, right?
00:37:26Like, Reebok?
00:37:27Yeah.
00:37:28Yeah, so, like, it's happening, and I just think this is great for the NBA, and next
00:37:34year Paige Buckers comes in, and then, you know, there's gonna be Hannah Hidalgo, I mean,
00:37:40there's gonna be, you know, Juju Watkins, they're coming, and I think this is great
00:37:45for the sport, but this, all this infighting and going on Twitter, and I read some people's
00:37:50Twitter accounts, and they're just literally duking it out about Caitlyn and who's this,
00:37:55and y'all don't give Angel no love, and y'all hate Kennedy Carter, and it's like, man, this
00:38:03is, it's hard to constantly love the sport, or want to do, the sport to do well, and then
00:38:10everybody's just fighting, no one's, like, this is the best season of all time, I'm gonna
00:38:15assume, right?
00:38:16One of the most popular seasons, I mean.
00:38:19So Gary, you're actually, you're cuing me up perfectly, so I'm gonna quickly read an
00:38:22excerpt out of your column, Noah, the title on SB Nation, the vitriol WNBA players face
00:38:30for fouling Caitlyn Clark is unacceptable and racist, and my favorite graph in it, obviously
00:38:36I would recommend people to go read the whole thing, but there's a point in the article
00:38:40where you say, but she isn't a savior because women's basketball doesn't need saving.
00:38:44The 2023 WNBA season already experienced record-breaking success and popularity in the league has proliferated
00:38:51since its inception in 1997.
00:38:53While Clark is obviously a part of expediting that growth, she is not single-handedly responsible
00:38:58for the WNBA popularity boom this season, but to your point, Gary, that was the next
00:39:02topic that we were gonna get into, the Nancy Lieberman and Cheryl Swoopes drama on X, and
00:39:09you know, it spilled into the Stephen A. Smith show, I mean, to kind of sum it up, basically,
00:39:14they agree very differently about Caitlyn Clark and what she's contributed to the league,
00:39:20and Nancy Lieberman basically was like, all right, it's okay to have these opinions, Cheryl,
00:39:25about Caitlyn Clark, but make sure you're getting the stats correct, which I do agree
00:39:28when you're talking about the stats of a player, even if you're trying to, you know, conflate
00:39:33what you're saying for a dramatic effect, you still have to make sure you're getting
00:39:37the numbers right, and that's necessarily, like, essentially what she didn't do, but
00:39:41Gary, I'll let you continue because I would love to hear, like, when you think about this
00:39:45story, it's not even just about women's basketball versus men's basketball, now it's become this
00:39:50racial issue as well, and it's spilled over into a nasty conversation, which we already
00:39:55have the political spectrum here in the U.S. that's divided our country, and now you have
00:39:58the world of basketball where people are evenly divided about whether or not she's worth being
00:40:04talked about, when, again, I'm pretty sure Caitlyn Clark, even though she's had a great
00:40:09season on the court, I'm sure she's frustrated off the court because of the way her name
00:40:14continuously is in the news, and she has barely said a thing about it.
00:40:18Yeah, I think what we're realizing, and this is an NBA thing, too, okay, like, not every
00:40:26great player is equipped to be an analyst. There's plenty of great players who are older
00:40:32who don't like any of the younger players. Like, they just don't, they don't like that
00:40:36they make more money, they don't like that they're quote-unquote softer, they don't like
00:40:40the jersey swaps after the game, they don't like that these guys pal around, they don't
00:40:44like that the guys have social media followings, they don't like, like, we saw Shaq go at
00:40:50Dwight Howard. I remember, and obviously I'm aging myself, I remember, like, the difference
00:40:54between, like, and this is, this is old, I'll get to where I'm getting to, just follow me.
00:41:00Bill Russell and Will Chamberlain. Bill Russell became, after his career, became a commentator.
00:41:05Eventually, after his coaching career, he started becoming a commentator, right? Then
00:41:10he became a coach a couple of times, but he went back to commentating. Over his last
00:41:14several years, Bill Russell embraced young players. Like, he joked with them, he laughed
00:41:20with them, he wore a Kobe jersey to the Kobe tribute. A lot of the young players, especially
00:41:26LeBron, when LeBron won the Finals MVP, like, they all embraced him. Bill jumped in and
00:41:32was like, hey, you guys, you young guys are good, you're okay. Will Chamberlain, before
00:41:37he passed in 99, Will Chamberlain was like, none of y'all young mofos can mess with me
00:41:43in my day. Like, y'all, y'all don't even compare to me. Get away from, like, Will was not very
00:41:50nice or embracing to the younger generation, especially the big men. He was, it was, remember,
00:41:57you might just want to try, remember Jim Brown? Jim Brown used to drag running back, current
00:42:01over, like, running backs, like, after his days. Oh, that dude's soft. He runs out of
00:42:07bounds, he don't take no tackles on, he don't run hard like I did. Like, Jim Brown didn't
00:42:12like none of the current, he liked three or four, right? Jim Brown, all-time great. Don't
00:42:19be an analyst, because you don't like half the league. And if you're Sheryl Swoops, you've
00:42:24got to understand that Caitlin is the future of the league. You can't just, you can't be
00:42:31like, I'm not got nothing to say about her. I'm talking about, like, you've got to understand
00:42:35that she's a great player. And then she posted that apology, which was, oh, it was COVID,
00:42:40girl. I forgot. Like, it was a screenshot of the apology that she texted Caitlin, who took
00:42:46it well. And that's what made it worse, because it's like three years ago. She dropped a COVID
00:42:51excuse. That's why I didn't have your, because she was saying on Pac, oh, she's 24. She put,
00:42:57you know, and let's be honest, like, with, and I'll let Noah go, like, with all these college
00:43:03records now, and people playing fifth, sixth, seventh seasons, that's how it is. You've got
00:43:09to look at games played, because there's going to be a lot of college records broken, because
00:43:13these fools is playing 200 college games, where people before were playing like 140, 150, because
00:43:21of the extra season, and a half, and medical red shirts, and all that. Some dude from Miami
00:43:28football, it's his ninth college season. Like, damn, you're talking about reruns.
00:43:33You're a grown man.
00:43:34Yeah, like.
00:43:35You're going to be in AARP before you get out of college.
00:43:37Exactly. He's like 21, it's his ninth season. And he's, he caught a touchdown pass. Like,
00:43:43he's still playing college ball. Like, I remember him being in college, and if you were like 23,
00:43:49people were like, man, you mad old. They was calling 23-year-olds grandpa. These fools is
00:43:5426, 27 on campus. So, to me, Cheryl's got some type of issue that she's got to, if you want to
00:44:02continue to be an analyst, a successful analyst, you've got to let that go. If not, just be an
00:44:08all-time great, and just kiss babies, and high-five fans, and make, sign autographs.
00:44:14But if you need to be an analyst, look at all the analysts we have. Most of them are like,
00:44:22they are fair. They might not like one dude or whatever, but most of them, you've got to kind
00:44:29of swallow your pride of like, I'm better than that dude, and just appreciate that these young
00:44:36people, it's like us as journalists. I can't hate on the young journalists coming out, well, y'all
00:44:41didn't have it. I'm glad they didn't have it as hard as I did. I'm glad the platform is different.
00:44:47I can't hate on that, because they were born 20-something years later. There's a sense of
00:44:54hateration there that Cheryl's got to let go, because it kind of taints her reputation as an
00:45:00all-time great, and she is. Nobody can deny, she was an amazing player, but this old, you're 52,
00:45:08and you're going at it with a 22-year-old. Beth, you ain't winning in that situation.
00:45:13Let that go, and figure out how you're going to approach your job if you're going to be an
00:45:18analyst. Sorry, I'm done. I have a lot of things to say on this topic, so I'll try to be brief.
00:45:29I think, first of all, Gary, I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't really care what
00:45:34Cheryl Swoops had to say. I don't know why Cheryl Swoops has become the big storyline,
00:45:41because I want to talk about why does Gilbert Arenas have a platform still?
00:45:46Former players have terrible takes every single day. Every time I hear Paul Pierce talk, I'm like,
00:45:51oh my gosh, I can't believe that was my favorite player growing up. I mean, we have guys that have
00:45:56made a career out of hating LeBron. I mean, seriously, there's guys in the media that that's
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00:47:23Game Time. Right. And Charles Barkley was on Bill Simmons' podcast today talking about embracing
00:47:29the new generation. Charles Barkley disrespects Anthony Davis every single time Anthony Davis winces
00:47:34when Anthony Davis has had a very good NBA career. So I just think that women are held to a standard
00:47:39where we're not supposed to be competitive with one another and we're not supposed to have
00:47:44any sort of regular human emotions that aren't just uplifting and cheering each other on
00:47:49and being supportive. And I love that the WNBA is tougher than the NBA. I'm an NBA fan first.
00:47:56That was the league that I fell in love with first. And watching the WNBA over the last few
00:48:00years, I'm like, they're so much tougher. They actually seem to hate each other, which is so fun
00:48:04to watch, that you see teams playing one another, that there's real rivalries and there's players
00:48:09that individually dislike each other. And a lot of the stuff that's been taken out of the WNBA
00:48:14and discussed through an NBA lens, I feel like is applying NBA politics to it. Diane Taurasi was
00:48:20roasted for her comments on Kaitlyn Clark last season about how it was going to be a hard
00:48:24transition. That's how Diane Taurasi just talks about literally everybody. And so I think that
00:48:29the problem that I have with the way that this idea has been pushed that the league hasn't
00:48:34embraced Kaitlyn Clark and that the veterans are salty and resentful and that they're just
00:48:38bitter people and they don't want to benefit from the growth of this league is that, A,
00:48:43I don't think that's true. I think there's been so many wonderful instances of veterans
00:48:46really embracing her and saying positive things about her, but those things just don't go viral.
00:48:50And instead, the one really well-known case right now of Cheryl Swoopes, who I don't know a lot
00:48:56about how her career as an analyst has been. She might have a ton of terrible takes under her
00:49:00wing, in which case I would say let's file her under, like you said, players who didn't make
00:49:05good analysts and that's it. But I feel like now she's been representing this idea that the entire
00:49:11WNBA and all of the older players and particularly players of color and a lot of queer athletes
00:49:16are anti-Kaitlyn Clark. And I just don't think that's true. What I do think is true is that
00:49:21Kaitlyn Clark, for some reason, has attracted a person that I have never seen in sports before.
00:49:27It is a very right-wing, very conservative, very hateful person. And that's not her whole
00:49:35fan base at all. She has lots of normal fans. We are all her fans, right? But she has unlocked
00:49:40a part of the population. Since writing that article, I have never ever received or seen,
00:49:47honestly, in real life, the type of hate that I've seen since then. And I found corners of
00:49:52the internet that I didn't know existed. I mean, I knew in theory, but I'd never seen them.
00:49:57Honestly, I don't want to get too personal or too... I know we've been going on for a while
00:50:01here, but I'm Jewish. It has not come up whatsoever in my life. I'm not religious.
00:50:07I would basically say it's not really a part of my identity much, but on paper, I'm Jewish.
00:50:11And the only time I hear about anti-Semitism or things is around the Israel-Palestine conflict.
00:50:16And I view all that with a grain of salt because I think it's a complex political issue. I will
00:50:22say up until a week ago, I had never faced any anti-Semitism. There are entire accounts right
00:50:27now on Twitter that are all photos of me and my mom and photoshops of people found from my old
00:50:34Facebook, people Venmoing me things, just all because I wrote that article. And I've talked
00:50:38to other people that have called light to the fact that this league has been disproportionately
00:50:43covered and everybody receives this kind of feedback. And so I've had players reach out
00:50:47to me and be like, this article is like, nobody wants to talk about the fact that there's something
00:50:52like sinister that's been brewing under the surface. And it's not her fault. And it's not
00:50:57the fever's fault. And I want her to win the championship this year, because I think that
00:51:01it would be great for women's basketball to see her succeed at the highest level.
00:51:04But I also think that we can't be diminishing the fact that there is a problem with the way
00:51:09she, you know, with what she's brought with her completely inadvertently and what she's attracted.
00:51:13I don't really understand it. I've asked some of these people firsthand, like,
00:51:16since when do you care about women's sports? Like, why do this? Like, I don't understand
00:51:19the psychology here. And there'll be books written about this in 10 years, in 20 years,
00:51:24in 30 years about what happened here. But I just think it's important because I keep seeing
00:51:29people say, like, the league has to embrace her. Like, there's resentment. I think there's
00:51:32resentment towards the fact that there's now a level of hatred that wasn't in the league in
00:51:36years prior, and that players are suffering. You know, people that are fouling her now are
00:51:41all of a sudden, I can't even imagine, because I wrote an article, and I'm like, a white person
00:51:46who lives in Boston. And so I can't even imagine what other people are experiencing. And I'm
00:51:49honestly glad that I've had this experience, because I feel like it's almost like firsthand
00:51:53journalism, where I'm getting a glimpse of like, what someone else's lived experience might look
00:51:57like. But I just want to say, like, I feel like that is the part of this that maybe people don't
00:52:02understand as much, because it just sounds like I've had a lot, and I'm not engaging with these
00:52:06commenters or anything anymore. But I've had people say, like, I don't believe you, like,
00:52:10show me screenshots. And I'm like, I'm not even going to go through these screenshots anymore,
00:52:14because it's been genuinely the most disturbing four days of my life, as far as anything I've
00:52:18ever seen online. And the other thing that I just wanted to add is that the important thing is,
00:52:24is that her rise and her popularity and her fame, it does benefit the league as a whole.
00:52:29And financially, it's inevitably going to do that, because financially, more eyes, more tickets,
00:52:34you know, ESPN games, like that's all going to be a positive. But I do think the media has a
00:52:39responsibility to also shine light on the fact that Kelsey Mitchell has actually been the leading
00:52:44score during the Fevers playoff run, during the last 10 games. I mean, she's the second leading
00:52:49score in the WNBA today. And if I put her name in a headline, nobody clicks about nobody clicks
00:52:54on it, because nobody knows that she's actually like the offensive driver on that team. So that's
00:52:59what I have an issue with. I want Kelsey Mitchell to get her flowers. And I want people to recognize
00:53:03that what Aliyah Boston has done as a post player, her evolution this season has been the best
00:53:07evolution as far as passing from a big that I've ever seen. And like, you know, there's so many
00:53:11different components to this. And instead, every time I turn on ESPN, or any sort of like mainstream
00:53:16basketball show, all they do is why do all the women in the WNBA hate Caitlyn Clark and why
00:53:21people calling out racism? This is just she's, she's just she just happens to be white. And I'm
00:53:25like, I get all that. But there's so many other layers to this that people are experiencing. And
00:53:30I think that's what I you know, and I'm just I'm slowly learning more and more about it. As I
00:53:34touched this topic. I mean, I'm on a I'm not writing about Caitlyn Clark for another two
00:53:37weeks, because I'm just honestly, like I can't do it. But I just wanted to share that because I do
00:53:42think there's like more to it than maybe meets the eye. Thanks for the vulnerability, but also
00:53:47again, the article because the fact that it spewed so much hate, I hate that you have had to deal
00:53:52with it. But it also just further magnifies the fact that like you said, there is an issue that
00:53:58needs to be addressed. Yeah, and then the issues plural, not singular, because I think there are
00:54:03lots of issues that are out there. And to your point about Kelsey Mitchell, I mean, when when
00:54:07the Fever, you know, finally got over 500 with direct with with their overall record, and it was
00:54:12the first time in a long time they'd been there. Kelsey Mitchell had like 36 points. I remember
00:54:18reading this story on a certain four letter network. And the mention of her being the leading
00:54:22score was like in the seventh, eighth paragraph. How in the hell does that happen? Her name wasn't
00:54:27in the headline wasn't in the lead. It wasn't like the seventh or eighth paragraph of the story.
00:54:32And to me, it speaks to how in the media, we're not as concerned about what the story is, but more
00:54:40so about the narrative that we can create based upon the event. And again, I understand the
00:54:46thinking behind that don't necessarily agree with it. But the whole Caitlin Clarke saga narrative,
00:54:53whatever you however you want to describe it, it comes down to something that's as basic and
00:54:58fundamental as things can be. What's the right thing to do? What's the right thing to do? Are we
00:55:05going to sit up here and talk about how there's, there's nothing to see here, when there's a lot
00:55:14to see here. The only positive that I see, well, I would say one of the biggest positives I see in
00:55:19all of this is that we're having conversations about this leak that don't necessarily involve
00:55:26lack of this, or they can't do that. Or a lot of the BS, frankly, that we're talking about in the
00:55:31WNBA is a lot of the BS that we've talked about in the NBA for a long time. The only difference is
00:55:37that now you're looking at it from a different lens, but you're still, you're wearing the same
00:55:42spectacles nonetheless. It's a different situation yet in many of the same issues are still prevalent.
00:55:49You know, and Gary, this was back in Gary's time. We had Larry Bird and Magic Johnson.
00:55:55There was a lot of divisiveness about those two. When you look at their time in college,
00:56:00then they go to like two very polarizing franchises in the NBA and how you either
00:56:05were a Lakers fan in Magic or you were a Celtics fan and you loved Larry Bird. And typically the
00:56:12fan that picked one or the other, if you're black, you go with Magic. If you're white,
00:56:16you go with Larry. And you don't necessarily have that per se with Kaitlyn and Angel Reese
00:56:21because both of them, I think are great players in different ways, but there's no denying the
00:56:26impact that Kaitlyn Clark has had on the league and women's basketball overall.
00:56:30You just can't get away from that. And when you have that type of reach, you're going to
00:56:36unfortunately find yourself being touted up by folks who you weren't trying to reach out to.
00:56:42And we see a lot of that with Kaitlyn Clark. And I, to me, she is the person who is most negatively
00:56:49impacted by her reach, because you can talk about the financial gains that she has and the
00:56:54attention that she's getting, but with that attention, there is a dark side to that. And
00:56:58that dark side is when you have folks who don't necessarily align with your own personal beliefs,
00:57:03who are now touting you as if you do have their same beliefs. That the fact that you are the
00:57:11example of what they've been talking about, that's wrong with this and wrong with that.
00:57:14And if you're Kaitlyn Clark, it's like, you know, I'm just trying to win games. I'm just
00:57:18trying to get buckets. I'm just trying to be the best player on the floor every night, like every
00:57:22single other, you know, person that I'm on the floor with, they're trying to do the same thing.
00:57:26And, you know, she's been, she's got caught in the crosshairs of a never ending societal battle
00:57:33that she didn't sign up for. She just wants to be a great basketball player.
00:57:38And I wish we would have more conversations about what she does beyond just being a scorer. I wish
00:57:43we'd talk more about just the way that her leadership has grown and evolved. I wish we'd
00:57:48talk more about how she's empowered folks, you know, like Boston, who is a much better player
00:57:53now with Kaitlyn Clark than she was without her last year. I wish more of those types of
00:57:57conversations and discourse were happening, but unfortunately they're not. And part of the,
00:58:01to me, the blessing and the burden of having an expanded base of fans is that you're going
00:58:07to get some bad seeds in there. You're going to get some bad characters, some bad actors
00:58:11who are going to utilize your talents and your skills and the platform that your talent has
00:58:16given you to their benefit, even though that benefit is not necessarily aligned with what
00:58:21you believe in and what your, you know, position on certain matters are. And Kaitlyn has been,
00:58:28I think the smartest thing that Kaitlyn has really done more than anything is she's tried her best
00:58:33to not move in any direction that the wind is blowing. Like when you have a certain segment
00:58:38of society that feels a certain way, Kaitlyn tries to stay as steady in the middle as possible.
00:58:44And I think for her own personal sanity, because one of the things I think a lot about with Kaitlyn
00:58:50Clark is, is she, does she have the kind of support system that's going to help her get
00:58:54through a lot of the mental health challenges that I know that she's battling? There's no way
00:58:59you can be dealing with all the stuff that she has is dealing with both intentionally,
00:59:03as far as basketball and commitments and things like that. And a lot of the bullshit
00:59:07that she has no control over that just finds its way into her life. Does she have a support system
00:59:12that's helping her navigate that space? And it looks from afar like she does. And that to me,
00:59:18that's the joy that I get in seeing her play. The fact that she can go out there and have
00:59:22all these things going on around her and still go out there and get you 28, 12,
00:59:27and five rebounds and a win by six. That's to me, that's the joy I get in watching her play.
00:59:32The fact that she's able to play relatively freely without a lot of the noise getting in the way.
00:59:38And I do think over time, that noise will quiet down because I do think over time,
00:59:42I think Kaitlyn is going to become more comfortable in her position and status
00:59:46in the WNBA and in her, her status as a global icon. I don't think she's there quite yet,
00:59:52but she is definitely trending in that direction. Similar to what we've seen with LeBron,
00:59:57similar to what we've seen with Kobe, who again, all great players, but there's something about
01:00:03them that was different. I mean, you look at a guy like Tim Duncan, who was a phenomenal player.
01:00:07I don't think any of us would consider him a global icon, but he was arguably one of the
01:00:11most talented players, if not the most talented player of his era. But then you look at guys
01:00:15like Kobe, who didn't win nearly as much individual accolades as a Tim Duncan. Kobe was a bigger deal
01:00:19globally. You look at LeBron, you know, Jokic and Giannis, they're right up there as well,
01:00:24but LeBron is different. And Kaitlyn in many respects is along those lines as far as being
01:00:30different in a good way. But again, like, like I said earlier, there are some bad actors that
01:00:35come with that global expansion of your reach. And unfortunately we hear more about them than
01:00:39we should have, or that we should, when it comes to Kaitlyn Clark discourse.
01:00:44I think honestly, I'll just add this real quick. One with Cheryl Swoopes, if it's Cheryl Swoopes
01:00:50and they put up on the screen, the players of the week are Nafisha Collier and Kaitlyn Clark,
01:00:56and you don't say anything and you just are like radio silence, that's a bad look.
01:01:02And then if you talk about how great the Indiana Fever are doing, and you mentioned everybody
01:01:05besides Kaitlyn Clark, why they're, why they're rising, that's, it's obviously an oversight.
01:01:11It's intentional. And I just think the pettiness, this is like, like, I think that's why people are
01:01:16like, you don't have to love like Kaitlyn Clark. But I also think a comparison is when
01:01:23Victor Wim Binyam, right? And this is a freak of nature. One, like they've come into the league
01:01:29around the same time. Victor, obviously seven, four, seven, four, whatever, right? But Victor's
01:01:35like a generational player. Victor is going to be the man in this league for a decade, probably in
01:01:42the next two to three years. And you see other people around the league being like, man, that
01:01:46dude is amazing. Like he, NBA players and former players have done nothing but kind of applaud him
01:01:53for his skill set and his potential. And I think when Kaitlyn got into the league,
01:01:58it just probably wasn't the same, maybe because no one knew that she was going to have this
01:02:03immediate impact. You know what it is, Gary? You know what I think it is though, not to cut you
01:02:07off. I think it's the fact that, and you just touched on it, the fact that there were physical
01:02:12eyeball tests told you he was going to be different. Seven foot four guy who could play
01:02:17like he could. And so it's easy to kind of fall in line with that. He's going to be great. Kaitlyn,
01:02:22if you saw Kaitlyn walking down the street and did not know her.
01:02:25We've seen NBA players like laud him. And then I think people expected that Kaitlyn Clark was
01:02:32going to get that. Then Tarazi, who, and Tarazi was Kaitlyn Clark 20 years ago, let's be honest.
01:02:39Kaitlyn Clark should have made the Olympic team. It's just like, I saw Kaitlyn Clark jersey in
01:02:45Paris. Like people wanted to see her. Dinah Tarazi scored two baskets in the Olympics.
01:02:51Like she probably, you know, it was like, it was great to see her to the six Olympics that she's
01:02:56done. She's retired. It was like for her to just kind of fill a spot and Kaitlyn would have brought
01:03:04more attention. And it was great attention. That gold medal game against France was exciting.
01:03:09Their run was exciting. A lot of great players, but I just think people were kind of looking
01:03:15for, I mean, I just remember when Jordan hit the league and now Jordan got a lot of hate,
01:03:22but when Jordan hit the league, people were like, yeah, like this dude is different.
01:03:25Like when great players hit the league, when LeBron hit the league, there were players,
01:03:30but they were players like, yeah, this dude, this dude is different. And there was kind of
01:03:35an adulation there. Then the hate came because LeBron didn't win right away or whatever. Then
01:03:42he made the decision. And so there's, people have been really hard on LeBron, but I just think,
01:03:47I think there was this perception that Kaitlyn was going to be embraced and she wasn't. And why she
01:03:53wasn't is that's many different reasons. Every player has a particular opinion. Do I think
01:03:59Katie Carter, when she was like, all she do is shoot threes, like, did that help? No. Because
01:04:04Katie Carter, no offense has been with like five different teams. She was with the Sparks.
01:04:09And there's a reason for that.
01:04:10Yeah. She got told to leave the Sparks. Like Kenny's had a checkered
01:04:13career and then now she's found her calling. I'm like, I'm happy that she's stuck in the league
01:04:19because like, she was kind of an afterthought. Like she literally bounced around and she had
01:04:25attitude problems or whatever. So you're pitting her against Kaitlyn. Kaitlyn's going to win that
01:04:30every time. Because people look at Carter's history and she looks like the angry woman
01:04:36mad at Kaitlyn. So I just think there's so many issues to address that Kaitlyn has nothing to do
01:04:42with, that Kaitlyn kind of walked into. Do white players get bigger advantages and sales in the
01:04:50WNBA than black players? Why is this player, why does everybody love Stewie, but everybody doesn't
01:04:57love Asia? Like there's all these, because it was Stewie against Asia a couple of years ago,
01:05:02where it was just like, why doesn't Asia get that love? Why does everybody think Stewie's
01:05:07the best? Like there was the same thing. And I think those are issues that need to be discussed
01:05:13that aren't discussed. And unfortunately what we have is we have this like, now like Noah alluded
01:05:19to, this nuke population of fans who are like, oh y'all just hate her because she's white. And
01:05:26y'all just hate her because she's good. And y'all are a bunch of jealous heifers. Like no,
01:05:29that's not it. It's unfortunate because that's what it's turned into. It turned
01:05:35to a very elementary argument where the argument and the issues in the league are very complex.
01:05:42Well, this has definitely been the most productive conversation I've
01:05:46witnessed about Katelyn Clark. So kudos to all of you, but we started this episode talking about
01:05:51the Celtics on the court. We'll close out with the ones that were in court over the last week.
01:05:57I know, I knew it. I knew the reaction was going to be cringe, but it's okay. This is what I'm here
01:06:02for. This is what I'm here for. So first off, we'll start with Big Baby. Big Baby is actually
01:06:08going to delay his prison time because he's working on a documentary about his life for
01:06:13those who may not have known he was convicted of defrauding the NBA, using the NBA insurance to
01:06:19basically pocket some money. And now as a result, he'll have to serve three years in prison. But
01:06:25again, the court of New York said that he can delay it so that he can finish his documentary,
01:06:31which I'm curious to see how that one will end. But then Rajon Rondo, the more
01:06:36prominent name for most, he pled guilty to misdemeanor gun charges. He was pulled over.
01:06:41The trooper smelled weed in his car and then did a search, found that he had drug paraphernalia as
01:06:46well. But he avoided jail sentencing and that was dismissed as well. But the O.A. Celtics,
01:06:54you two were there for that. So, I mean, were you surprised?
01:06:58I wasn't there for that. I was still in Detroit.
01:07:01Gary was here.
01:07:02I was not there for the O.A. Celtics.
01:07:04Oh, you weren't here?
01:07:05We both covered Big Baby.
01:07:08But you worked for Rondo.
01:07:10And I did cover the Celtics, you know, for the championship run from afar.
01:07:14Oh, yeah.
01:07:15National reporter. It's disappointing for both of them, obviously. I mean,
01:07:20having been around both of those guys, I mean, great personalities. Rondo, more times than not,
01:07:26is one of, if not the smartest basketball mind I've been around. The way that he thinks the game,
01:07:32he really, you hear coaches often talk about, I want my point guard to be an extension of me,
01:07:38Rondo is as good an example of that as you'll ever find. In fact, I would,
01:07:44and Rondo would back me up on this. He's probably better at navigating and managing the squad than
01:07:49some of the coaches he's had. Not all of them, but there's a couple that were a little suspect
01:07:53that Rondo was probably better at handling things than they were. But it's disappointing,
01:07:58obviously, for them to go through something like this. You know, for Rondo, I'm glad he's
01:08:02not going to get any time, but he's still going to be punished in some way, some capacity for what
01:08:07he did. But it's just a bad look for that team to have two guys who were so instrumental in you
01:08:12winning a championship, who were going through something like that, who are in the news right
01:08:16now for all the wrong reasons. So disappointed with that, obviously, but man, I'm curious what
01:08:24KG thinking about this, to be candid with you. That's what I want to hear from. What's Big
01:08:29Ticket saying about all this? I want to read his group chat messages for sure. But all right,
01:08:36well, did you have thoughts, Gary, before we wrap? Noah, Gary? The Rondo thing, you know,
01:08:42NBA players smoke weed, so that's not a shame. What? They were smoking before it was legal,
01:08:49so who are we talking about? NBA players have guns. I'm not as disappointed in Rondo. He's
01:08:56had some other situations that are a little bit more concerning. I know he wants to become an
01:09:01NBA coach, and this is not helping. No, it's not. You need to live free and clean for a while.
01:09:07I know his son is a rising prospect, Rajon Jr. He's nice. He's like 13 years old now.
01:09:15The one who was like with the champagne bottle, where they wanted to bubble him. Yeah. He's
01:09:20growing up. And so I'm not as concerned with Rondo. Rondo has enough savvy. He just needs
01:09:25to make better decisions. Big Baby's the one that it's really bothersome, because
01:09:31I think there's a lack of common sense, a lack of education, a lack of, you know, like Big Baby.
01:09:37Accountability, too. Yeah, I don't think Big Baby did really well with his money.
01:09:41You know, I know he signed that mid-level exception, I think four years, $24 million,
01:09:46with the magic. And I think that's the... Then he hurt his foot, and he started getting hurt.
01:09:52Then he didn't finish that. I think the magic waved him, and then all of a sudden he became
01:09:56kind of a journeyman. His weight got out of control. I know he had that little stint with
01:10:00the Clippers. And then he was out of the league, and he was like, he might have been 27, right?
01:10:06So I think it's... Big Baby is... 38, I want to say. And I think he last played in 2015.
01:10:18So he might... I think he was 29 when his last NBA game. And that's really young.
01:10:26I just feel bad that he got drawn into this thing. The hustle was that, because the league,
01:10:34and the guy did the book on Spencer Haywood, really fought with the Players Association to
01:10:40go in on getting a lot of these former players full health care. Because there was guys like
01:10:46Moses Malone died at 60, Daryl Dawkins. There was a great NBA center, Marvin Webster. They
01:10:56called him the human eraser because he blocked shots. They found him in a hotel bathtub. These
01:11:02guys were not healthy after their career. They didn't have enough medical insurance to really
01:11:06take care of themselves, get things like heart screenings, diabetes checks, things like that.
01:11:11And then I talked to a few former players who were like, we can't just go exercise anymore.
01:11:17Our hips are done. We need knee replacements. We need... We can't just go run six miles. We've got
01:11:23to swim. We've got to do special exercises to stay in shape, to keep our health. So the NBA,
01:11:31the Players Association all combined to have full health care for a lot of these former players,
01:11:36especially the ABA players who did not have a health care plan when the league folded. So you
01:11:42had a lot of these guys who played 10 years in the ABA, and they didn't have a pension.
01:11:47So for big baby in this crew, Terrence Williams, another former Southern Keon Dooling,
01:11:55they were literally filing false medical record statements saying they got a root canal.
01:12:01Fake procedures.
01:12:03Root canal. Some guy said he had two root canals in the same day.
01:12:08They got a crooked doctor to sign off on it, and they were collecting the money.
01:12:14So the league was like, oh, OK, so you paid $8,000. Well, here's $4,000, or here's the insurance side
01:12:21of it. You pay $2,000, we'll pay $6,000. So these guys were just collecting these checks as a way to
01:12:26make fast cash. And a lot of them got busted for it. And baby, I saw an interview, he did not,
01:12:34oh, my name got thrown in. I didn't know. He's, like you said, not quite accountability.
01:12:40And I just think there's a lack of education there. I feel bad for big baby. He was trying,
01:12:45because he was trying to make money. And I was told by people in the Celtics that, hey, man,
01:12:49he needs money. He was trying to do stand-up comedy.
01:12:53I interviewed him right before a show here in Boston to start really building up his comedy
01:12:58tour. And to your point, it's like, there were honest ways to do that. But he actually ended
01:13:03up getting indicted right before he was supposed to be in Massachusetts and ended up having to
01:13:07cancel the show as a result. So it's like, to your point, he needs wise counsel around him.
01:13:14So I feel bad, like that story. And then he was like, oh, I'm getting great shape in jail.
01:13:21Like, this ain't funny, Glenn. This ain't funny anymore. Like, the whole big baby, I think he kind
01:13:26of fed into that. Bad pun. But the whole thing of him, because we were around Sherrod, and Doc
01:13:36was hard on that dude. Doc was- He needed that, though.
01:13:4115 years, I don't know, 15 years ago, like the whole mental health thing and people being,
01:13:47that was mental health. Because Doc took a weight shot at him every opportunity about how heavy he
01:13:54was, thinking that was going to get him going. Obviously, it didn't. But now, if Doc would do
01:14:01that, it would be called fat shaming. But to me, it's just sad. I feel bad. I hope Glenn can get
01:14:08himself, shake the big baby, shake that reputation, get his mind right, his life right,
01:14:17because he's not even 40 yet, and get things together. And I don't know what this film is
01:14:23going to do. Hopefully, he gets out maybe a year and a half. Maybe this will be the change that he
01:14:29needs, because it's sad. The Rondo thing's different. This one, the lack of education,
01:14:35him not accountability, him getting his name drawn into this, and then getting the recitory.
01:14:42All right. Well, on that note, we will close this episode of the Big 3 NBA podcast. Again,
01:14:46thank you to our special guest, Noah, for bearing with us. It wasn't that bad, was it?
01:14:51Okay, we're kind of cool. Thank you to Noah, and of course, for H. Rob Lacey and Gary Washburn.
01:14:56This is the Big 3 NBA podcast. Thank you for listening.