🚨 MUST-SEE message on future of Democratic Party

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INTERVIEW - Brian interviews @thedavidpakmanshow about the future of the Democratic Party.  Buy THE ECHO MACHINE: https://davidpakman.com/echo  For more from Brian Tyler Cohen: Straight-news titled YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BrianTylerCohenNews YouTube (español): https://www.youtube.com/@briantylercohenespanol Order my #1 NYT bestselling book: https://www.harpercollins.com/pages/shameless Newsletter: https://plus.briantylercohen.com Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/briantylercohen Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/36UvEHs Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0066rKCBIycIMI4os6Ec5V Twitter: https://twitter.com/briantylercohen Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/briantylercohen Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/briantylercohen TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@briantylercohen Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/briantylercohen.bsky.social Threads: https://www.threads.net/@briantylercohen

Transcript

00:00I'm now joined by the host of The David Pakman Show on YouTube and the author of the new

00:04book, The Echo Machine, How Right-Wing Extremism Created a Post-Truth America.

00:09David Pakman.

00:10David, thanks for joining me.

00:12Thanks for having me.

00:13So we're in a moment right now where obviously the Democratic Party is dealing with a lot

00:17of issues within the party.

00:20New polling is showing that the party more broadly is as unpopular as a lot of polling

00:24has ever shown it to be.

00:26And so in a moment where, you know, your job is to talk to folks about what's happening

00:31in this country, especially as it relates to the worst excesses of the Trump administration,

00:36how do you kind of keep the faith when there really seems to be backsliding against what,

00:41you know, you've been advocating for?

00:44Couple different things.

00:45I mean, number one, when parties have lost everything and the robust opposition phase

00:51is only beginning, it's not a huge shock that support would be low.

00:56I think the continuing resolution fiasco probably did not help, certainly.

01:02But for me, the light at the end of the tunnel is that people do seem to be connecting now

01:07how policy leads to events in people's lives.

01:11And a couple of the stories were almost really gifts from Trump's deportation plan.

01:15You know, there was this man votes Trump, Trump deports his wife story.

01:20And then we had this other one man votes Trump, Trump's ice imprisons his wife story.

01:26And I do think that these stories are really starting to tell that the left needs to connect

01:32policy to real world consequences.

01:35So it seems less like sport and less about whether you like certain personalities.

01:40And then finally, the other thing that I've been talking about, and I think to some degree,

01:44you know, you and I have spoken about it, which is figuring out which candidates genuinely

01:51are what voters want, rather than taking a candidate and trying to change them into what

01:58voters want, which comes off as so disingenuous.

02:01I'm hoping that the search for 2028 and 2026 is going to focus more on finding someone

02:07that's the right person already.

02:10Are there any names that you've seen floated?

02:12And I know that, for example, before Barack Obama came onto the scene, nobody really knew

02:16who Barack Obama was, I mean, other than the folks who knew that he was a junior senator

02:19from Illinois.

02:21But right now, I mean, it does feel like we have the same cast of characters that just

02:25kind of get recycled into different spots.

02:29Is anybody who you're looking at, whether it's big names for 2026, or bigger names for

02:342028, somebody who already exists in the zeitgeist?

02:37Or do you presume that we're going to see folks come in that we don't even know necessarily

02:43yet?

02:44You know, I'm not big on predictions, because they're usually worth what you pay for them.

02:48But a couple things I will say is, I'm very interested in seeing how the future of folks

02:55like Josh Shapiro, and very separately, Congresswoman AOC develop over the next two years.

03:03And I don't say that because I think these are the leaders of the Democratic Party right

03:08now.

03:09But what I'm curious to see is how does public perception of their role on the political

03:14spectrum develop over the next couple of years, because there was a period where AOC was,

03:19oh, she's way too far left and extreme.

03:22And all of a sudden, she's become more politically savvy.

03:27She has become more familiar with the way politics works.

03:30Some don't like it, but she's much more seriously being thought of as someone who now understands

03:35how you get power.

03:37And I think that's what's been missing to a degree, Brian, which is, how do you actually

03:41win elections and get power has become secondary or tertiary,

03:46right?

03:47To to the the adoption of maximalist positions or purity politics, which I think is I mean,

03:53this is just my opinion, I think has has kind of taken over from the actual just politics,

03:59making sure to get the most people in your tent and just find, you know, I think there's

04:02this sense within the Democratic Party that we have to find people who really hit every

04:07single every single bucket, every single point that we need to hit.

04:12If not, we're perfectly content to attack them to the ends of the earth.

04:15But that's not going to help us win elections if we're just, you know, chasing people by

04:19virtue of of finding the politician who who most closely accedes to all of our individual

04:25positions.

04:27I am curious, though, as we talk about this, what your thoughts are on on left and right,

04:32like of the spectrum of progressive versus moderate versus whether whether you think

04:38that's going to be the main thing or something that I've been thinking about more, which

04:41is that it's not necessarily about progressive versus moderate, but more this idea of fighters

04:46versus non fighters.

04:47I'm curious your thoughts on that.

04:49Well, you're picking up on something I've been talking about, which is the political

04:54spectrum using the terms left and right to describe what it is.

04:58People believe their principles and their values is pretty broken and it's broken for

05:01a bunch of reasons.

05:02One, MAGA has totally broken it by taking these shape shifting positions that if you

05:09applied them to the political standards of 30 years ago, some of this stuff would kind

05:14of qualify as left.

05:16Some of it would qualify as right.

05:17You've got the populist angle where the populist rhetoric can be subverted by Republicans or

05:22Democrats.

05:23So the way of describing people's beliefs left and right just falls so short right now.

05:28And I think like a sort of matrix of where are you on economic populism and where are

05:35you on authoritarianism versus libertarianism in terms of how involved do you want government

05:40in different functions seems better and more dynamic in terms of describing people's beliefs.

05:46To your point, I don't think that there is really a world right now in which a list of

05:5440 policy positions is the way to figure out who's the right candidate, at least not for

05:59the democratic party.

06:01And you know, we go back and look at those first two weeks of Kamala Harris's campaign.

06:06The speeches had energy.

06:08It was a different speech every day.

06:10They were doing the, these guys are weird stuff, which was working well.

06:13They were attacking on all fronts.

06:16And all of a sudden it was either the consultants or the strategists or the focus groups or

06:20who knows what.

06:21And it became too generic of a campaign and that's where things went wrong.

06:27So I think that really needs to be a major area of focus.

06:29Yeah.

06:30I mean, well to that point, I mean that, that really does kind of just, there are a lot

06:34of voices I think that really don't have a ton to show for, show for themselves in the

06:40political era that we're living in right now.

06:42And those seem to be the people who have the ears of the folks who are working in politics.

06:47But again, you know, you and I have the luxury of being able to talk to people where we get

06:52instant feedback.

06:53And you spoke about this in the book as well.

06:57And I think that we're in a different era now where, where, you know, what's, what's

07:01worked in the past isn't necessarily working now in this social media era.

07:05So can you talk a little bit about what you've kind of, what you've seen from our democratic

07:09politics versus like what you've seen from your own channel online?

07:12Well, listen, there's been a major sea change, right?

07:15If we were, if we were talking six months ago, maybe even four months ago, we, I believe

07:21had a different situation with regard to the engagement on platforms like ours.

07:25I'm cautiously optimistic that the democratic party is now starting to see the value not

07:32of engaging with us October 20th or later of election years, right?

07:37But actually building an ecosystem, not that mirrors the disinformation that Trump's so

07:42successfully spread in the last six months of the election, but of creating a community

07:47people want to be a part of.

07:48And we T we've talked about this with a lot of our co-creators as well.

07:52There was something about seeing Trump in this unstructured hangout format with the

07:59Nelk boys, with Rogan, with whoever, where it didn't matter that he told a hundred lies

08:04an hour.

08:05It was more interesting as a community to be a part of than the hyper-structured nine

08:12minute and someone's off camera saying you got to wrap up format, which a lot on the

08:17left have taken to.

08:19So I'm glad we're having this conversation today because I do see a change happening.

08:24And I think Democrats are getting that the community media aspect has to be built to

08:30keep people engaged.

08:32So the Democrats are obviously seeing that it has to, that this has to be built.

08:36Have you seen some, a difference in how they are actually, in whether they're actually

08:41abiding by that?

08:42Like, have you seen the Democrats kind of embrace this or do you still think that there's

08:46a way to go to get to the point where they're willing to take that risk?

08:50Because I mean, this is a big problem that you can't fix.

08:53A lot of what we do see to your exact point is behavior that is safe, that is uncontroversial,

09:00that is, you know, maybe poll tested to reach the biggest swath of people while, while,

09:06you know, upsetting no one.

09:09And so, and so that kind of has been ingrained in Democrats thinking and Democrats behavior

09:14for as long as I can remember, Republicans left that, left that by the wayside back in

09:182016.

09:19And so we're almost a decade into this experiment on the right where they are willing to be,

09:25you know, controversial.

09:27And I mean, we've seen that to the nth degree, but Democrats largely won't.

09:31So I am curious then now I'll let you speak what you think about that.

09:35Listen, as you pointed out, the right's been dabbling in this for nearly a decade.

09:40Maybe since December, Democrats are trying a different approach.

09:42So no, it hasn't all been fixed.

09:44And you know, without naming names, some of my conversations with staffers still are,

09:50we want to talk to you three times before you do the interview.

09:52We're going to limit it to 10 and a half minutes.

09:55Here are the things we want you to talk about.

09:57Will you give us the questions in advance, which of course I never do.

10:00I'm being super upfront with these folks, Brian, and I noticed to a degree you are as

10:03well in saying, let it happen.

10:06Get out of the way.

10:07These are, these are professionals.

10:09These are elected officials.

10:10They're big boys and big girls.

10:12Allow them to just be part of the ecosystem.

10:16Allow them to actually have the freedom to say what's on their minds.

10:20Half of them are sort of acknowledging that this is what needs to happen, which listen,

10:24it's way better than where we were six months ago.

10:27But the risk aversion is very much still there.

10:29One of the first things that I read in your book was why you hate politics.

10:33Can you speak on that?

10:35Yeah.

10:36It's the introduction.

10:37It's a little tongue in cheek, but the point I make is when I think about engaging with

10:41politics, I think about the stuff that we talk about off air of how can we solve real

10:47problems.

10:48There are economic problems.

10:49There are issues with healthcare, there are infrastructure issues.

10:52These are the issues I would like to be grappling with when I say, hey, I care about what's

10:56happening politically in my community, in my country, because of the debasement of who

11:01we are up against here, politics has become something deplorable, which is we're arguing

11:07with people over facts.

11:09We're arguing with people over do human activities impact the climate?

11:14And I give a bunch of examples in the book and the, what I hate about it is that you

11:20have to engage on that level first to even have a shot at any progress.

11:26And it's a really depressing place to be.

11:28And so that's the aspect of it that I hate.

11:30And so how do you, how do you have the faith to keep on going knowing that, that, and this

11:37goes back to my first question a little bit, but rather than being able to engage with,

11:42with, you know, with everybody online on topics that actually matter, the fact that we're

11:46regressing, I mean, far from being able to have actually, you know, informed conversations

11:51about what's going on, obviously with a shared sense of reality, we're now regressing to

11:55the point where that the basic sense of reality, just, just truth, fact, reality doesn't even

12:01exist anymore.

12:02And so how do you move forward in an environment that seems to be pulling, pulling you backwards?

12:08My approach is to see the voters that have fallen for it really as victims.

12:15And when you see someone as a victim, you kind of feel bad for them, right?

12:18They have been victimized by a Republican party that has chosen to contrive issues on

12:24which they feel they can get the upper hand, you know, uh, men and women's sports, an issue

12:30that affects a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, which they've weaponized.

12:35And the left has been a little clumsy in dealing with it, right?

12:38They take that.

12:39And all of a sudden, no one's talking about the fact that there's a thing called medical

12:45bill bankruptcy in the United States that shouldn't exist.

12:48That there are kids who are hungry in the United States that doesn't need to exist.

12:52That's optional.

12:53So the way I remain engaged is by realizing that there's a lot of people who have completely

12:58fallen for this propaganda.

13:01And in order to get them back, we've just got to connect with them, how, what they vote

13:06for impacts what happens in their immediate communities.

13:11And that men and women's sports or CRT DEI, right?

13:15Who hears about CRT now?

13:16It's just DEI.

13:17This stuff is meant to pit us against each other and it puts not a single dollar in their

13:21pocket.

13:22Have you seen any difference in terms of the effectiveness of your message since you've

13:26been, you know, since you've been attempting this tack?

13:30I mean, I know, look, I know that you probably among everybody else has always been one of

13:34the most thoughtful people on the left in terms of what you're doing.

13:40And I think, I mean, look, when I first started, you were one of the only channels that I watched

13:46when I was first getting into political commentary on YouTube.

13:49So this is, you know, to your credit, you've always been consistently, I think, pushing

13:55a more measured, reasonable, nuanced take, which the Internet doesn't always reward.

14:01I don't know if the Internet is best known for nuance these days.

14:05But have you found that it's been effective, even in anecdotal dealings with folks, with

14:10viewers who consume your content, in terms of bringing people over who, you know, may

14:16be independent, may have voted for Trump himself?

14:20I think that anecdotally that's absolutely happening.

14:23And you know, one of the things that can be difficult is filtering out the noise for the

14:26signal.

14:27As your audience grows, the amount of feedback starts to go up and it becomes difficult to

14:32really figure out what's the signal here and what is the noise.

14:35But one of the things that I try to do is I really see the platform I've built.

14:40And I know, you know, with your platform, you see it the same way.

14:43There is a level of responsibility that comes with it.

14:47And so what I find myself doing is really thinking, zooming out a little bit and saying,

14:52what is the important message?

14:54You know, whenever I capture someone's attention, even if it's for 15 seconds on TikTok or a

14:58couple of minutes on YouTube or whatever it is.

15:01What's the really important takeaway here?

15:05And what is the takeaway that will get this person now to maybe take an action to improve

15:11their community?

15:13And really thinking about the platform I've built as a tool with which to affect that

15:17kind of change.

15:18That's not the way it was eight years ago, you know, when I was much earlier in doing

15:22this with a much smaller audience.

15:24What was what was the most what's the most memorable part of the book, in your opinion?

15:29Well, there's an entire section of countries that have figured out a lot of the things

15:34we struggle with here.

15:36And the cliche is always Scandinavia, right?

15:38Okay.

15:39Yeah.

15:40Denmark, things are fine in Denmark.

15:41Fine.

15:42But there's more stories in the book.

15:44We look at Uruguay in South America.

15:46We look at Portugal in Europe during the 2010s.

15:49We look at the Kerala state in India.

15:51And there's this idea that sometimes people fall for in the U.S. when Republicans go,

15:55we're too big of a country to use this sort of solution.

15:59We're too diverse of a country to use the solution that Sweden used.

16:03And I debunk each of those and basically tell people, worst case, as states, we can do all

16:11the stuff that these other countries are doing.

16:13Even if you fall for 340 million people, it's too big a country to do some of this stuff.

16:18Approach a lot of these things at the state level, and they are doable and they are solvable.

16:22And I think that's one of the strongest parts of the book.

16:25David, where can people who are watching right now grab the book?

16:28So a limited number of signed copies are available at Brookline Booksmith, where people

16:33can go to David Pakman dot com slash booksmith.

16:36But of course, the book as well as the audio book and the Kindle book are available everywhere.

16:40Any local bookstore can get it.

16:41Barnes and Noble, Amazon.

16:43Well, I highly, highly, highly recommend that everybody who is watching right now grab a

16:46copy of The Echo Machine.

16:48The book itself is fantastic.

16:50And also, look again, to my earlier point, David has been David is one of the reasons

16:54that I am doing what I do right now.

16:56I think one of the most important voices that we have on YouTube right now that we

17:00have in the on the left more broadly right now.

17:02So highly recommend that you support good people who are doing good work and and fearless

17:07journalism at a time when we need it most.

17:09David, thank you so much for taking the time.

17:11Thanks, Brian.

17:12Keep up the good work.

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