Ben Johnson or Mike Vrabel? + Coaching Search Updates | Patriots Daily - video Dailymotion

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Taylor Kyles and Mike Kadlick react to the recent news regarding the Patriots head coaching search, discussing the best direction for the franchise to go. After interviewing Byron Leftwich and Pep Hamilton, New England is set to interview Mike Vrabel on Thursday. Will he take over by the end of the week? Or will the Patriots wait to hear from Ben Johnson?   ************************************************ Patriots Content Brought to you by.... 💰 Prize Picks - https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/CLNS Download the app today and use Code CLNS at PrizePicks.com/CLNS & Get $50 instantly when you play $5!  🎫 Gametime - https://gametime.co Take the guesswork out of buying NFL tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. Terms apply. What time is it? Gametime!  Merch Store - https://shop.clnsmedia.com  Social Media!!!! 🏈 Patriots Twitter- https://twitter.com/patriotsclns 🏈 Patriots Instagram-  https://www.instagram.com/patriotsclns/ 🔵 Facebook- https://facebook.com/clnsmedia 🔵 LinkedIn- https://www.linkedin.com/company/clnsmedia/about/ 💟 Tik Tok - https://www.tiktok.com/@clnsmedia ********************************************************* 🏈 ABOUT PATRIOTS COVERAGE ON CLNS: 🏈  Welcome to the CLNS Media Network’s YouTube channel for New England Patriots 🏈 football.  CLNS Media is the leading online provider of audio/video coverage for the 6X Super Bowl Champions.  Get complete inside access to the New England Patriots at Gillette Stadium in Foxboro and everywhere on the road. CLNS Patriots credentialed insiders Greg Bedard, Andrew Callahan, Tayler Kyles, John Zannis, Alex Barth and Mike Kadlick provide instantaneous news and analysis all in real time, as well as full access to complete videos from the players, coaches, ownership and everyone else inside Patriots Place.  If you enjoy CLNS’ Celtics 🍀 All Access and are craving more Boston sports content, you head over to CLNS’ Patriots 🏈 Press Pass at  🔴 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqX7G3pEDTseNxtoDU27PEg?sub_confirmations=1 🔴  __________________________________________________________________________ 🍀 For Celtics Content:  🔴  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmp3kivpOg3lzoJC7yV7VjQ?sub_confirmations=1 🔴 🔴 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmp3kivpOg3lzoJC7yV7VjQ?sub_confirmations=1 🔴 🏀 🍀 Celtics Twitter - https://twitter.com/CelticsCLNS 📸 🏀 Celtics Instagram - https://instagram.com/celticsCLNS 🔵 Twitter Main- - https://twitter.com/clnsmediaCLNS 📸 Main Instagram - https://instagram.com/clnsmedia ******************************************************* Check out over dozens of sports podcasts from CLNS Media here: https://clnsmedia.com/ OR for all 200 shows, go to https://northstationmedia.com

Transcript

00:00I am joined by Robert Griffin III, James White, Field Yates Mena Kimes.

00:13All right.

00:14So first play, we're going to look at second into one of the Patriots first offensive plays.

00:21What's going on everyone?

00:22Mike Catholic, Taylor Kyle's here for CLNS media back with another episode of the Patriots

00:26daily podcast powered by prize picks, powered by game time.

00:30And now Taylor for the beginning of the off season, powered by a head coaching search

00:35for the Patriots, lower third reads breaking news, Patriots fired head coach, Gerard Mayo.

00:39It's not much of breaking news now.

00:41It happens Sunday night.

00:42We are now on to Wednesday, but they're getting right after it with this head coaching search.

00:48And that is exactly where I want to start.

00:50We're going to get into Mike Vrabel.

00:51We're going to get into Ben Johnson, that argument where they should go.

00:55Taylor's now leaning Ben Johnson.

00:57So I want to get his thoughts on that.

00:58We went after it on Twitter a little bit yesterday, but I want to articulate it in words instead

01:05of memes.

01:06So we'll get into all that, but first and foremost, what the Patriots have already done

01:11is interviewed two candidates, Byron Leftwich, former Jaguars quarterback, Tampa's offensive

01:16coordinator for several years down there with Tom Brady at the helm.

01:20I thought that was pretty notable.

01:21And then Pep Hamilton, a long time offensive guru in the league.

01:26He's been an O.C. twice.

01:27He was with Indy for a while, and he was the Houston Texans offensive coordinator in 2022.

01:31He was also the head coach of the D.C. Defenders in the XFL, and he was also their general

01:36manager.

01:37I thought that was an interesting note.

01:38I think the biggest note here as well is that he coached Bazooka Joe Milton, his quarterbacks

01:44coach.

01:45And he's also done some media.

01:46And I know you pulled up the clip yesterday where he ranked like, what, the top five quarterbacks

01:51under 25.

01:52Yeah.

01:53Let me see if I can find it for us real quick.

01:54Yeah.

01:55I'll pull it up real quick.

01:56It was pretty incredible.

01:57I saw it in the offseason and thought the guy was losing his mind.

01:59Was he already on the Patriots, or was this before the pre-draft process?

02:03This was, I think, that's a good question.

02:05I think this might have been after he was already taken by the Patriots.

02:09But yeah, Pep Hamilton had Joe Milton as one of the top five young quarterbacks in the

02:15NFL.

02:16No sign of Drake May.

02:17No sign of any of the quarterbacks that were drafted in the first round.

02:23That's so good.

02:24Stand up for your guy.

02:25I respect it.

02:26I was going to say, riding with your guy.

02:27But yeah.

02:28So I want to get into this.

02:30Well, let's do the Rooney Rule discussion on top of it as well, because it's no secret,

02:34they're two minority candidates.

02:35And look, I look at this, and I'll turn it over to you in a second.

02:39But I look at this sort of, yes, it's very fast.

02:44They did it quickly because both of these guys are also out of the league right now.

02:47They haven't coached.

02:48And so you can get them in the building right away.

02:51You don't have to wait because they're not in the postseason.

02:53Like Ben Johnson, which we'll get to, they couldn't interview him until today on Wednesday

02:57because of the rules around coaches that are currently with teams.

03:01So on one hand, it's speeding it up.

03:03And it's getting these guys in the building to basically get them out and check the box,

03:07which is too bad.

03:08And that's one of the reasons why a lot of people say the Rooney Rule is a sham.

03:11But on the other hand, it's two young offensive minds.

03:15And that's what the Patriots have lacked in this building, frankly, for quite some

03:21time.

03:22If you count Josh McDaniels in that conversation, sure.

03:24But they've sort of been archaic in their approach offensively.

03:27So on one hand, it sucks.

03:30On the other hand, fact-finding mission, bring these guys in, go through a head coaching

03:34search, and then maybe you bring them back around and keep them on the staff.

03:37But your thoughts on these two guys, as well as them, frankly, like I said, being offensive

03:43minds that could work with your young quarterback in Drake.

03:46Yeah.

03:47So to address the Rooney Rule first, because that's the big thing here, they've been criticized

03:51by I think Albert Breer, Jordan Schultz, because if this is truly a sham process, and they're

03:57only bringing these guys in because they need to satisfy the Rooney Rule, because that's

04:02what it looks like.

04:03Like we mentioned, they've been out of the league.

04:05So it is kind of an odd look.

04:07Two black coaches that you've interviewed so far haven't coached in a couple years.

04:09So what's going on?

04:12It's not like there's requests out for Aaron Glenn, or Anthony Weaver, or Brian Flores.

04:16Those aren't reported yet.

04:17It's just bringing in the guys that are off the street, which is-

04:20And Brian Flores even said, hey, if you want me, come and get me.

04:23I'll take the interview.

04:24But Flores' situation, I will say, is different specifically because he is currently suing

04:29the NFL.

04:30We talked about that.

04:31But either way, if this is a sham process, and we find out that as soon as the Patriots

04:35can possibly hire Mike Vrabel, they do it, I don't like it.

04:38That's rotten.

04:40Yeah, that is truly circumventing the Rooney rule in a very disrespectful way.

04:45And I think that's-

04:46After they just did that a year ago.

04:48Because yes, they did hire a black head coach, but another side of the Rooney rule is bringing

04:54in other external minority candidates to get them in front of owners as well.

04:59Exactly.

05:00And people can argue that Aaron Glenn's a better head coaching candidate than is Ben

05:04Johnson because Aaron Glenn has lost so many of his key players, like the Patriots did

05:08this year.

05:09And they are still one of the best defenses in the NFL.

05:11Aaron Glenn also more well-connected because he's been in the league for so long.

05:15So does it look suspicious?

05:16Absolutely.

05:17We've also had discussions about how, if we're being very honest, there aren't a lot of black

05:21head coaching candidates who come from the offensive side of the ball.

05:24You got Jarrod Johnson with the Texans, but it's a very, very short list.

05:29Now going even further into that, the Patriots process, look, if they have something that

05:35they want to look for, right or wrong, right?

05:37If they say it's Mike Vrabel or an offensive head coach who can connect with Drake May,

05:42be with Drake May throughout the rest of his career, what have you.

05:45I get that.

05:46Sure.

05:47Might be right.

05:48But you can also point to the fact that there are very few defensive coaches in the NFL

05:52right now that have had sustained success.

05:54You can point those things and say, you know what?

05:56That's fair if that's your criteria.

05:58So that kind of complicates things again.

06:00It should be the broadest search possible where like Robert Kraft kind of made it sound

06:03like they were going to exhaust all resources and bring in a bunch of different people kind

06:08of like what they did with their offensive coordinator search, bringing people from all

06:11these different brain trust to give you different ideas like, all right, I kind of understand

06:15your process even if I don't necessarily agree and think that you are hurting yourself by

06:19not entertaining any defensive coaches, but if you do just one offense, it's tough.

06:24The league is a bad.

06:25It's not great when it comes to hiring.

06:27We know the whole like equality thing is not really there right now for being very honest.

06:32I know people call it a DEI hire.

06:33That's not what DEI means.

06:35What Gerard Mayo was, if anything, was a nepotism hire because Kraft admittedly loved him and

06:40didn't want to lose him and decided, you know what?

06:42I'm going to lock him down for foreseeable future.

06:46Nepotism is rampant throughout the NFL, right?

06:48So these unfair hiring practices, they are what they are.

06:50I am not saying they are right.

06:51I am not saying I agree, but again, it's not just the Patriots that do it, I think is what

06:56you're getting at.

06:57And that's not to justify it, but it's to say that the Rooney rule doesn't stop the

07:01unfair practices as we know.

07:03And there are also other times where the way that the NFL hiring process works just

07:08kind of is unfair, no matter what race, you know, gender, creed or whatever you are.

07:12Again, this is such a sensitive topic and I'm not trying to undermine the very serious

07:17problem the NFL has in terms of diversity in its coaching circles.

07:22And I don't want to choose the Patriots if we do find out once again, this was a fake

07:25search of these guys were only brought in like not even with the offense coordinator

07:29search when they hired Bill O'Brien, right?

07:30They brought other guys in like Adrian Clem, which we were talking about before the show

07:33you brought up where Adrian Clem guess he was interviewed, was never going to get the

07:37offense coordinator job, but did ultimately was ultimately brought on, sorry, as the offensive

07:42line coach obviously didn't work out, but I feel like the only way to satisfy the Rooney

07:48rule without being completely condescending is to do it in a way where one, you're giving

07:52some coaches experience, you're getting their names back in the cycle where it's like, oh,

07:56all right, Pep Hamilton interviewed for a head coaching job.

07:59What did it sound like?

08:00You know, the NFL is connected to hear things, the owners talk, the owners talk, and that's

08:04what it does.

08:05It gets them back in front of somebody's face.

08:06It gets them in front of Elliot Wolfe's face where, look, I mean, Pep Hamilton, someone

08:10who I mentioned in the intro, but has been around the league.

08:13And so he's out for a year and people might forget about him.

08:18All the hot shots come back and you're Kevin O'Connell's of the world and I'm bringing

08:21up head coaches and Sean McVay, but the Clint Kubiak's and like these guys, right?

08:26All of a sudden Pep Hamilton's by the wayside where when there is a rule that you need to

08:31bring in minorities and in this situation, it's you can do it so early because he's not,

08:37you know, he's not actively coaching.

08:39It gets, like you said, it gets them back in the cycle.

08:40It gets them in front of not only Robert Kraft, but Elliot Wolfe, where another team's looking

08:44for an OC down the line, hey, Elliot, what did Pep sound like?

08:47What did his, or what is he bringing?

08:49How has he evolved?

08:50And so it ultimately, like you said, gets them back in that rotation.

08:54And then, so getting them in the rotation and like we mentioned, the whole aspect of,

08:58well, you could be interviewing them to potentially bring them up for another job.

09:01Like you mentioned, Leftwich has the Brady connection.

09:03I'm sure that's attractive to a degree and you do want someone who develops Drake May.

09:07So Pep Hamilton, Byron Leftwich, both guys who've had success in that vein.

09:10So again, I feel like I'm going in circles at this point, but if they did it, like, and

09:15it's a BS process and they have no intention of actually even seeing if these guys could

09:19play a role on the team, bad, gross, blech.

09:23If they at least did it to do these guys a solid and everybody who was involved in this

09:27understood exactly what was happening and Vrabel isn't just basically penciled in right

09:31now.

09:32I understand it, but really it's a problem with the rule because you force people to

09:36not interview one minority coach, but two.

09:39And the fact is a lot of these guys already have their minds made up and what exactly

09:42they're looking for.

09:43And when you shrink that down to offense for minority candidates, the unfortunate truth

09:47is there just aren't very many and it's hard to do the process justice.

09:51And the way we will find out Taylor, if it is a sham process is if by the end of the

09:56week, it's Mike Vrabel, it's an, it's a zoom interview with Ben Johnson.

10:00And then they, uh, they talked to Vrabel Thursday, they hire him Friday and we're back down in

10:04Foxborough for a press conference on brave.

10:07So we're going to get into that.

10:08I want to get into Vrabel.

10:09I want to get into Ben Johnson, but before we do a quick word from our sponsors, first

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12:47And Taylor, what time is it game time?

12:51It is game time.

12:52And it's also time to talk about this Mike Frabel, Ben Johnson debate that not just me

12:59and you, but the entire, uh, social media verse, uh, the TV, uh, I guess the TV world.

13:06Yeah.

13:07All that aspects.

13:09It's Ben Johnson.

13:10It feels like those are the top two candidates, not only in Foxborough, but really across

13:14the entire NFL.

13:15So there is still a request for Ben Johnson to interview with the Patriots.

13:19Uh, it has been widely reported that he will be taking that interview.

13:23Now it can only be on zoom this week.

13:25He can't come in person, uh, until the next round of the playoffs, essentially.

13:29So mentioned before in the last segment that if it is a, you know, a sham process that,

13:36um, it's basically what we'll find out if they bring in variable, they hire them and

13:40they don't even see Ben Johnson through and they get off that zoom call that they have

13:43and say, you know what?

13:44We're going with Brable.

13:46So it signs are pointing to Mike Brable being the guy and I'll say it right off the bat.

13:53I still think that is the right move is Mike variable.

13:56Now I do think you should see Ben Johnson through, but the fact that the Raiders have

14:01now let go of Antonio Pierce, there is a real Mike variable connection.

14:05Variable is meeting with the bears on Wednesday.

14:07Uh, the saints want to speak with him as well.

14:09So everybody wants variable just like you do.

14:12So both sides have a little leverage here because it's also been reported that Mike

14:16variable does want to come to new England.

14:19So it's going to be a little bit of a cat and mouse game over the next couple of weeks.

14:22But ultimately my argument against Ben Johnson right now, Taylor is it's still the unknown.

14:28We just went through the unknown with Gerard Mayo where he comes in and can he build a

14:34culture and can he build a vibe and is he going to be able to garner a room?

14:38And I know that Ben Johnson has done that for the offensive side of the football with

14:42the lions.

14:43I just think ultimately ownership is going to be nervous to hand over the keys to the

14:49franchise to this guy.

14:51But I want to hear your argument on it because over the last week or two, uh, on our shows

14:58and in our standups and when we've been talking down at Foxboro, me and you have been on the

15:02same page where go get Mike variable.

15:04He's the guy, he can, he can be that, but you've done some research now over the last

15:08couple of days and you've leaned Ben Johnson now.

15:11So I'm saying all this, I'm introing it all this because Ben Johnson is going to have

15:17the opportunity to zoom in and meet with Robert Kraft and the brain trust.

15:22What does he have to tell them?

15:23What's your argument on why he should be the head coach of the New England Patriots?

15:27So one, I just think comparing him to Mayo, the more I've kind of looked into it, it's

15:32just not fair.

15:33Even the Dan Campbell stuff.

15:34Like I didn't really remember this, but the fact that Dan Campbell had been an assistant

15:38head coach for the saints for several years after being the interim head coach for the

15:43Dolphins, like Dan Campbell, wasn't some guy who stumbled into a head coaching job.

15:48He was prepared for half a decade.

15:51Like, so I want to start off with that.

15:53Mayo was so grossly underprepared, which wasn't totally his fault.

15:58That was the case.

15:59I don't necessarily think there's a whole lot of candidates that are even put in the

16:02position that he was with his little qualifications, as few qualifications as he had.

16:07So first I want to kind of nip that in the bud.

16:09It's like Jeff Saturday and Gerard Mayo, like Jeff Saturday had none and then it's basically

16:14Mayo.

16:15Right?

16:16Like it's just, they're, they're in such different stratosphere.

16:17So I don't even think those comparisons are the same, but it obviously will still color

16:21the crafts decision-making because you just did have rookie head coach wanted to do one

16:26thing, had all the right ideas, but didn't know how to execute it with Ben Johnson.

16:30And I will say with Mike Brable, if he's hired, like I'm not going to be upset.

16:34He brings the same way, the reverse with Ben Johnson.

16:37So like it's, it's the two top candidates.

16:39If they get one of them, I'll be, I'll be happy.

16:41I just lean Brable and you lean Johnson, but on a percent, they're the top candidates for

16:45a reason.

16:46And it's, it's funny.

16:47Cause they are the opposites in so many ways where the thing one guy brings the other doesn't,

16:51but then he brings something else.

16:52If the other guy doesn't.

16:54With Ben Johnson.

16:55One, it was funny how many connections actually had, I was putting together a little like

16:58document to kind of get all the information together and understand their background stats,

17:03all those things.

17:04Ben Johnson has a ton of kind of overlaps with the Patriots, the new England area and

17:10Drake may specifically like he won, um, he won an award for playing football in North

17:15Carolina.

17:16He was a walk-on quarterback at UNC.

17:19His offense is influenced by Clyde Christensen, who was the guy who went on the Pat McAfee

17:22show and gushed about Drake maybe because they worked together when Drake was at UNC

17:27Chris, Clyde Christensen is a legendary, uh, quarterbacks coach and offensive mind.

17:31So there's all that stuff with Drake may.

17:33He also went to BC coached at BC.

17:35So that was pretty significant.

17:36So he's familiar with the Boston area, at least was hired by Matt Patricia.

17:40Like there's a ton of things you see where it's like, Oh yeah, like I see where this

17:44would make sense.

17:45The Patricia thing isn't huge, but it's kind of just one of the things that they're all

17:48on.

17:49They're like, Oh, that's ironic.

17:50So beyond that, like the fact that you have some overlap with Drake may the fact that

17:54you know, Boston does not mean that you were going to be an effective head coach.

17:57What really started to get my mind running was the fact that connections seem like the

18:02biggest red flag for Ben Johnson because he's a younger coach.

18:05He's the same age as Rod Mayo.

18:07So you're saying, all right, you don't want to have the same mistake, but Mayo was never

18:11outside of the Patriots organization in the football world.

18:13He wasn't the media world.

18:14He wasn't the business world, but his connections were pretty much just very tightly wound within

18:20the building in new England.

18:21And then obviously Burton bridges with bill Belichick, potentially with bill O'Brien because

18:25of how he was publicly calling out the offense back in 2023, Ben Johnson hasn't just been

18:30on the Detroit staff, which also won the fact that he has been a coordinator and play caller

18:36for not only a top five offense for three straight years, but one of the best cultures

18:41in the NFL.

18:42That's a resume you can't really point to in a lot of other places where when you think

18:45of some like young offensive, you know, wonder kids that have flamed out or aren't really

18:49what people maybe thought they would be.

18:51Might be.

18:52Daniel is kind of the poster child.

18:53I feel like, but with Mike McDaniel, he was the offensive coordinator for the 49ers, but

18:58it wasn't his offense.

18:59It was Kyle Shanahan's offense, similar with Alex Van Pelt.

19:02He was not the play caller.

19:03It was not his offense.

19:04There were a lot of principles that he obviously agreed with and connected with.

19:08That's been Ben Johnson's offense because Dan Campbell's a CEO head coach.

19:12He probably has input.

19:13He has final say, but that is Ben Johnson's offense.

19:16So one, he's going to come in and give you that innovative, fresh, forward thinking mindset.

19:21The guy was a mathematician, studied math in college.

19:24The whole analytics thing with him is not fugazi.

19:26He's actually a really smart guy where the analytics stuff is going to come with him.

19:30So the forward thinking ideas when it comes to hopefully, at least we don't know this

19:33for a fact, we don't know his pitch, but what you would think given his background is he

19:36would be analytically minded and willing to kind of build out that part of the staff.

19:41Obviously, the Lions have been one of the best personnel departments in the NFL.

19:44So if you could take something from there, the ideas that he has, they're also a very

19:48well-balanced offense.

19:49They actually run the ball quite a lot.

19:51If they can run the ball down your throat, similar to kind of Philly, because they have

19:54the tools, they will.

19:55Now, how much of that is Dan Campbell?

19:57I don't know.

19:58Maybe that's him wanting to lean into it.

19:59Maybe Ben Johnson will be more pass heavy.

20:01I don't really know.

20:02But the fact that the Lions are so tough, they're so well coached, that it is truly

20:07Ben Johnson's offense.

20:09And he has connections outside of Detroit because, oh my God, I went so off topic because

20:13I got to talk about Ben Johnson.

20:15But with the connections, not only has he been in Detroit, he was on Joe Philbin's Dolphin

20:19staff.

20:20Now, that's not going to excite a lot of people because that staff got fired.

20:24They were-

20:25They weren't great.

20:26It was very fast.

20:27It was hard knocks it out basically for Philbin in Miami.

20:29But they did have a lot of older coaches on that staff who've gone out to other places

20:33in the NFL and had success.

20:35Joe Philbin also, because if you're saying, okay, Ben Johnson, he needs to basically like

20:40when you're a kid and you get a credit card or a debit card or whatever, your parent has

20:43to co-sign with you.

20:44I think for any first year head coach, there should be a co-sign of, yes, I have this person

20:49who's going to join the staff with me.

20:50For Mayo, it was Ben McAdoo.

20:53But McAdoo was the only Wolf guy.

20:55I don't really know that Gerard Mayo ever truly bought into the Wolf guys.

20:59And that was where all the seniority on the staff was coming from.

21:02Joe Philbin has been a head coach.

21:05And he overlapped with Elliott Wolf as he was rising up the ranks in Green Bay.

21:09So it's somebody who's at least familiar with, and we know that Ben Johnson does respect

21:13Elliott Wolf.

21:14Maybe that's part of the reason why, because Philbin knows him and word gets around in

21:17the NFL, obviously.

21:18You also have a guy like Darren Rizzi, who was named the interim head coach for the Saints

21:22when they fired Dennis Allen and has been a special teams coordinator for a long time.

21:26He had stops in Rhode Island.

21:28He had stops at New Haven.

21:30So he's been a New England guy, overlaps with Philbin, has that assistant.

21:35He was assistant head coach under Sean Payton as well.

21:38If Ben Johnson is going to bring in staff full of veteran coaches, a nice mix, but a

21:42few former head coaches, former assistant head coaches, that answers a lot of questions

21:47for me.

21:48Because-

21:49That answers my question.

21:50That's my argument, is the inexperience and the idea that you can't go in and garner a

21:55room and be a leader of men.

21:56But if you bring in those guys and you give that pitch this week, it's going to give the

22:02crafts and the Patriots brass a real, okay, maybe we should actually see this thing through.

22:07A hundred percent.

22:08And if you do have that backing, like the leader of men stuff, you still can't prove

22:11it until you get in the building.

22:12Of course.

22:13Because, you know, Ben Johnson's probably great with the Lions, but what happens when

22:16you have a losing season?

22:18What happens if you have another, you know, you go five and 12 next year or whatever,

22:22can you sustain that?

22:23Can you be the kind of guy that keeps the ship going forward, keeps buy-in as players

22:27playing tough and disciplined and your preparation is always intact?

22:30Like all of those things, at least with more older veteran coaches who've been in those

22:35leadership positions, you have guardrails.

22:37So maybe he's not the guy early on, but he can learn from those other guys, lean on them

22:42and doesn't have to take on so much on his own.

22:44And he can truly be the offense's head coach.

22:46Like he's been in Detroit, maybe hires Lou Anna Rumo, another guy who was on that Dolphin

22:51staff Lou Anna Rumo.

22:52From what I've heard, I spoke to Joe Goodberry, friend of the show, which gave me a lot of

22:55insight into why Lou Anna Rumo was fired, apparently it was because they had such a

22:59young defense and he didn't adapt to that young talent, didn't like playing them.

23:03Sound kind of familiar?

23:04Sounds like the older Patriots, where it was, it was big on confusing quarterbacks doing

23:08a lot of complicated things.

23:10The Patriots have a pretty much veteran defense.

23:12They're probably going to sign some free agents, but it's highly unlikely they have any starters

23:16who haven't been in league for at least three seasons.

23:19That's pretty huge.

23:20So Lou Anna Rumo in a division with Josh Allen, in a division with Tua Tagovailoa, in a conference

23:26with some of the best quarterbacks in the NFL, having a guy like Lou Anna Rumo is a

23:29massive advantage.

23:30So Lou Anna Rumo can lead the defense.

23:33Ben Johnson can lead the offense.

23:35And then you have these other guys, once again, to kind of help them with the CEO things,

23:40because you know, he's still going to be involved in the offense like Kevin Stavansky, but take

23:43on other responsibilities.

23:44So that's why when I kind of looked into it, I'm saying it's, I feel like it makes Brable

23:51to me seem almost too safe because with Brable, obviously, you know what you're going to get

23:56from him.

23:57He's the CEO type.

23:58He's the leader, the culture.

23:59They're going to be tough.

24:00They're going to play above their, you know, their other grade, whatever the boxing terminology

24:05is.

24:06Like all of those things.

24:07Above their class.

24:08Above their class.

24:09Above their class.

24:10God, that was going to drive me crazy.

24:11But at the same time, he's going to have to hire new coordinators on a pretty consistent

24:15basis if they have success.

24:16If the offensive coordinator is great, that guy's going to get hired away within a year

24:19or two.

24:20Defensive coordinator is great.

24:22Less likely you'll get hired away, but always a risk.

24:23And there's constantly going to be turnover.

24:25That's the risk you run.

24:26And a good CEO head coach should be able to find more coaches to fill those voids.

24:30But with Ben Johnson, you could potentially have one of those forward thinking offensive

24:33minds to work with Drake May for his entire career.

24:37That's a huge advantage.

24:38And you flip potentially, obviously, they're not going to be top five next year.

24:41The Patriots have a long way to go, but you have the groundwork to say this could be one

24:46of the best offenses in the league within the next two or three years.

24:49With Vrabel, you don't really have those same assurances.

24:51We don't even know who his staff's going to be.

24:54So we don't know who Johnson's is either necessarily.

24:56I want to put that out there as well.

24:58A lot of this is up in the air.

24:59But if Ben Johnson did bring a veteran staff, I feel like he's the best coach for you.

25:04And there is a bit of risk there, but it's kind of like Drake May where, hey, if you

25:07get fired because you took a swing, different with ownership or head coach.

25:12I get that.

25:13It's not exactly the same thing, but I really do feel like Mike Vrabel, especially if you

25:17bring him in and hire him right away and Ben Johnson doesn't even get a chance to come

25:20in the building.

25:21I don't really love that kind of process.

25:23And that's why it's so tricky with where ownership is right now because of, again, I bring up

25:28the Raiders as a lurker here with Brady in that building where Vrabel could come in here

25:34and be like, hey, look, I want to have this conversation and I'm your guy, but I'm going

25:38to see this through.

25:39I deserve to see this through.

25:40I sat out a year.

25:41I went and I learned the analytics and I worked on the offense with Cleveland and I have this

25:46lined up where, hey, maybe I bring in Josh and he's not going to leave my side if we

25:49pay him right or vice versa.

25:51I know these, you know, I made these connections.

25:53I know these offensive coaches, I don't know them off the top of my head, but if he comes

25:57in with a certain argument, hey, but don't go interview Ben Johnson again.

26:03I'm your guy.

26:04Let's get this done.

26:05I want to come in here.

26:06I want the corner office by Monday and we're going to turn this thing around and that's

26:09going to be hard for the crafts to not, you know, to sort of give that up.

26:13But I think too, as you said, in the sort of sales pitch you gave for Johnson is the

26:17right one where he has that zoom meeting, whether it's today or tomorrow with them and

26:22be like, look, I understand you just went through X, Y, which those are the questions

26:26are going to be asked.

26:27They're going to be like, look, we just went through a nightmare scenario with a rookie

26:30head coach.

26:32What's different about you?

26:33What do you know?

26:34What have you learned and how are you going to sort of turn this thing around for us?

26:37And it's going to lean on, it's going to be those veteran head coaches that we just mentioned.

26:42So look, I like the pitch.

26:44I, it's a good argument and it makes me, I'm sort of still where I was, like, I'm still

26:52not leaning Johnson.

26:53I'm still on the Vrabel train.

26:55I do just like the connection.

26:57I like what he's done.

26:58And we had talked about it where his detriment in Tennessee was the quarterback position

27:05and the ultimate sort of get the hell out of here was, I don't agree with the front

27:09office and the, the hall of fame just fired the GM.

27:13They picked over him, by the way, maybe you should have kept Mike Vrabel all along.

27:17And that's the thing is everyone, I keep getting these, these, uh, these tweets and all this

27:21stuff where Vrabel wasn't a good head coach, like BS Vrabel was a really good head coach

27:25in Tennessee.

27:26They had a ton of success.

27:28And then he just kind of got hamstrung by the front office and the quarterback position.

27:32They had to pay Ryan Tannehill and the rest was history.

27:35So I still lean Vrabel.

27:37It's certainly enticing with Ben Johnson, the offensive connection.

27:40That's the thing that still scares me the most.

27:42But I do think with Drake may, whether it's Alex Van Pelt, whether it's somebody close

27:47to that system where Vrabel just Vrabel now has built connections in Cleveland, right?

27:53So you can bring in that same style of offense for year two of Drake may.

27:58And by that time, Drake may, he's already a stud after year two of the same system.

28:03He's going to be a stud even more.

28:04And you keep, even if you have to bring in somebody else, it's still his offense and

28:08it's still, he's going to be okay because now he's heading into year three and he's

28:12already a superstar, frankly.

28:13So it's on the side of the ball.

28:16Like Louie and a rumor might not leave.

28:18Like he's an older coach.

28:19There's not a whole lot of guys who were in their fifties.

28:21I don't know.

28:22Actually, let me see.

28:23How old is Louie?

28:24I feel like he's in his late fifties guessing fifties.

28:27Yeah.

28:28Oh, age 58, like not a lot of 60 year old defensive coordinators getting hired for head

28:34coaching jobs.

28:35So the same argument for frayable, he might have Josh McDaniels, which honestly I hope

28:38he doesn't settle for Josh.

28:39The more I've thought about it, the less I love the idea.

28:41I know he's adaptable, but it's just like, we haven't seen him really build a modern

28:45offense.

28:46So I had questions there significantly.

28:48I like the ability of the often with Josh.

28:51And I like the fact that it's probably a continuity plan as well, where he ain't going nowhere

28:55for a long time.

28:56But that might be the case.

28:57If you hire Ben Johnson and Louie in a room, Oh, the leader of the office, the leader of

29:00the defense might never leave.

29:02Right.

29:03That's, that's what's so enticing about the offensive coach.

29:06Like that's my argument with rabble and McDaniels is it's rabble.

29:11He's done it before.

29:12He's had success.

29:13He knows how to run a football team.

29:15And then Josh is, he's the OC and he's basically the offensive head coach.

29:20But if it's Ben Johnson, not that you get two in one, because you don't know for sure

29:24if Ben Johnson can leave the room, but you know that if he can, he's going to be the

29:28offense.

29:29And that's going to be the offense for the rest of the time, hopefully.

29:32So if that offense is good, it's going to be hard for him to lose the whole team.

29:36Like Kyle Shanahan's and everything.

29:38It's basically like, yeah, it's your offense.

29:39You're innovative.

29:40Like there's a level of respect for you automatically.

29:42If your offense is doing what it's supposed to be doing.

29:45So if he's able to do that and he can stay consistent, stay out of the curve.

29:49I mean, yeah, you need to still be a leader of men, but if you have a Louie in a room,

29:52Oh, who's done it on defense, like you can have kind of your own two little worlds and

29:56just to have a guy who can walk the line and like Sirianni Sirianni doesn't do, I keep

30:00coming back to him because he's like the poster child of like, what does this guy do exactly?

30:05I don't know.

30:06He just doesn't mess up and he stays out of the way and he hires good coaches.

30:09Like if you can just do your job and stay in your lane and not step on people's toes,

30:14still be able to build that coach, which we don't know if he can.

30:16But again, if you have the backing of other guys who've done it, it makes me feel better.

30:20I don't know.

30:21I just keep going back and forth on it.

30:23I feel like the Vrabel stuff is slipping for me because I am starting to like Ben Johnson

30:26so much.

30:27But at the end of the day, both these guys are great candidates.

30:30And I think personally, outside of just having a ready made roster, the Patriots are the

30:33best team that you could possibly go to the Patriots and the bears and the Patriots have

30:38more stable ownership.

30:39And I think you could just say which quarterback you'd like better.

30:42But if you're talking about a franchise quarterback, who's going to lead the locker room, sorry,

30:45I'm leaning Drake May.

30:46And I've said that before the draft right now, it's I mean, Drake's at least more proven

30:51already.

30:52And he seems like more of a sure thing.

30:53Caleb's still a mystery, but you can also obviously fall in love with that skill set.

30:57And he was in a nightmare scenario.

30:58And obviously, you know, the jury's not out on Caleb Williams in Chicago.

31:02But two very enticing head coach candidates for the Patriots, Mike Vrabel interviewing

31:07on Thursday, Ben Johnson set up for a potential virtual interview over the coming days.

31:13We will see what happens with the search and myself and Taylor Kyles will be here on Patriots

31:18daily for all of the updates along the way.

31:21So make sure you rate review and subscribe to the Patriots Press Pass channel here.

31:27Subscribe to the podcast as well on any audio feeds if you're there and keep it here.

31:31Keep it locked in.

31:32Comment.

31:33Let us know what you want to hear because we're going to be here every single day just

31:36about to take you through the offseason.

31:38So for Taylor, I'm Mike Kadlik.

31:40Take care of yourselves.

31:41Take care of each other.

31:42And we will see you all next time.

31:43Peace out, everyone.

Ben Johnson or Mike Vrabel? + Coaching Search Updates | Patriots Daily

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