Escaping the NAR: An Interview With Adam Short - Episode 152 Branham Podcast
Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
John invites Adam Short to talk about his experience escaping various NAR groups, about the IHOP scandal with Mike Bickle, and more.
Chapter List:
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Welcome and Guest Introduction
01:35 Adam’s Background and Initial Experiences
03:56 The Impact of IHOP and Bethel
08:00 Deconstructing Faith and Reconstruction Process
11:00 Encountering Spiritual Abuse
15:01 The Urgency Culture in Charismatic Movements
20:07 Reconstruction and Healing
24:03 The False God Concept
29:08 Financial Manipulation in Churches
32:17 Historical Roots of Pentecostalism
36:32 Espionage and Religious Movements
42:24 Experiences with IHOP
46:56 Personal Reflections and Moving Forward
53:32 Reevaluating Leaders and Memories
56:14 Closing Remarks
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
John invites Adam Short to talk about his experience escaping various NAR groups, about the IHOP scandal with Mike Bickle, and more.
Chapter List:
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Welcome and Guest Introduction
01:35 Adam’s Background and Initial Experiences
03:56 The Impact of IHOP and Bethel
08:00 Deconstructing Faith and Reconstruction Process
11:00 Encountering Spiritual Abuse
15:01 The Urgency Culture in Charismatic Movements
20:07 Reconstruction and Healing
24:03 The False God Concept
29:08 Financial Manipulation in Churches
32:17 Historical Roots of Pentecostalism
36:32 Espionage and Religious Movements
42:24 Experiences with IHOP
46:56 Personal Reflections and Moving Forward
53:32 Reevaluating Leaders and Memories
56:14 Closing Remarks
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Transcript
00:00You
00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research
00:35podcast. I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham
00:40historical research at william-branham.org and with me I have my very
00:45special guest Adam Short former member of the NAR. Adam it's so good to have you
00:51on here today we've talked about having you on to talk about all things NAR and
00:57you have some connections to all kinds of various groups that just fascinate me
01:02because as I begin to explore all these connections from what we call the NAR
01:08today back through the timeline into what I came out of I'm learning more and
01:13more and literally I'm seeing each movement seems to be like a replica of
01:18the former movement and they tweak it just a little bit to make it appealing
01:23to the itching ears and then a new concept is formed and a new you know new
01:28network in the NAR emerges so glad to have you on so you can talk through your
01:33experiences in all of these and I thought maybe it'd be good if you just
01:37told a little bit about yourself and your connection to all of this. Sure
01:42thanks John great to be here appreciate all you're doing and came across your
01:47podcast I think just through the IHOP scandal that a lot of us have been
01:52following so that's been hugely informative because I like many people
01:59was pumped full of William Branham I guess now you can call it indoctrination
02:07right from many years ago and so this is still very fresh news for me to learn
02:14the nasty history behind William Branham so I've learned a lot from your content
02:19and then others that have been on your show so just a little bit about me so my
02:26wife and I formally I guess you could say extricated or de-churchified about
02:3413 years ago and I could just say for me personally that was after having spent
02:38about gosh the bulk of my adult life in churches that are now called NAR which I
02:46honestly had not even heard that term until recently which is seemingly a
02:52common thing and I've heard other people say I don't even know what that the NAR
02:55or NAR is I was one of those people only to find out that 13 years later after
03:01leaving some of these movements that that's all lumped into the NAR
03:08movement and I actually had no idea so I'm learning a lot about what we were a
03:14part of what we belong to for many years ever since I got saved in a pretty
03:20dramatic encounter with the Lord back in 1998 that's when I met the Lord and so
03:26it's been a long long journey to say the least and so this IHOP scandal that hit
03:32back in October of 2023 became really personal to me because I did live in
03:38Kansas City in the early 2000s and was a part of Metro Christian Fellowship
03:44which is the church that Mike started used to be Kansas City Fellowship Kansas
03:49City Vineyard and then evolved to Metro Christian Fellowship so so there are a
03:56lot of common threads between Metro and IHOP because of the common
04:02foundership and then was informally connected to IHOP and very influenced by
04:08them for many years so there's a lot I can share about just other
04:13involvement with a couple other key churches there but but yeah that's a
04:18little bit about me very eager to continue learning but also we my wife
04:24and I are also very eager to share more about our story soon publicly awesome
04:29well I'd like to talk to her as well whenever we get a chance but what you
04:33said reminded me of myself so I grew up in the Branham cult and we were so
04:38isolated that we believed it was like all cults it was the elite you were the
04:43only ones but even further than that we were somewhat suppressed in our
04:49knowledge of how it formed to the extent we didn't realize that there were
04:53hundreds of ministers in this big revival and we thought that William
04:57Branham was the you know the central figure to reign above all of them not
05:02knowing he was just one of you know many but we also were not told like you say
05:09that you didn't recognize the the NAR until after you left I had no idea what
05:14Christian identity was even though this was a Christian identity movement based
05:19on British Israelism and other themes I just heard that term in the news and
05:24when you hear it in the news it's usually with the extremists that have
05:28had some sort of climactic event and so you picture guns and rifles and a
05:35standoff and not realize right no this was actually a doctrine that many of
05:39these guys believed and the doctrine was the foundation that bore the fruits
05:44that you see in the news and that concept was very very difficult in the
05:49same way that the NAR has a framework that bears some fruits that you see in
05:53the pseudo political realm today it's the similarities are are very close to
06:00each other but the NAR developed because of latter rain and they all reference
06:05William Branham is there yeah one of quote-unquote God's generals yeah oh
06:10yeah hundred percent I mean and you know to your point about God's generals I
06:14mean that's a pretty charged sort of label or moniker as it were especially
06:19having come from deep involvement in Bethel because you know I was I was
06:24actually parts not part-time staff at Bethel for a while went through all
06:28three years of the SSM which is this you know school supernatural ministry and
06:32one of them we actually still have these and I you know I've debated whether
06:35to throw them away the blue you know the blue you probably know these backwards
06:39in front but the blue books about William Branham they're like I could go
06:47grab some off the shelf if you'd like yeah we still have those in our house
06:51and you know flashing back to Bethel when and then also God's generals book
06:57where I mean literally this guy walked on water you know and you look at the
07:05threat the common thread we never I mean we heard he ended badly like we were
07:10told at Bethel that he ended badly but then we weren't to throw out all of the
07:15good stuff that that was sort of prior to that and and so you you look you look
07:22at that and then you look at let's watch how Bethel is handling the Bickel
07:29scandal let's watch how I hop is handling the Bickel scandal post Bickel
07:34supposedly separated from you know from I let's look at Morningstar how they
07:37handle it let's look at charisma magazine and so many other organizations
07:42and they're doing the same thing they're like let's let's keep the good stuff if
07:49there is any good stuff and I mean that's I don't even think if is it
07:52appropriate anymore I think we've all anybody with the brain can now the
07:57reason for themselves that like there's nothing good left like I mean we have to
08:02throw all of this out we can't even keep you know to the to compare to the
08:07William Branham thing we can't keep just because there were miracle signs of
08:10wonders that people point to and I know you debunk that in your podcast that
08:17doesn't substantiate or validate that God did any of it right and so those are
08:23the kinds of things that many of us are wrestling with on Twitter every day it's
08:27like how what do we keep what do we not keep what do we throw out and then how
08:33do I interpret that or I don't even know if that's the right word but how what do
08:39I do about my own experience with God right because I think a lot of people
08:43have said okay let's just throw the whole thing out I'm walking away from my
08:47faith completely I don't even believe that the Bible is true anymore I do
08:51personally I'm just saying there are a lot of people who have come to that
08:55conclusion which and I don't fault them for that right like when you've gone
09:00through something to that degree of severity yeah that probably sounds
09:05reasonable to just throw the whole thing out right and so anyway it's a it's a
09:13thread that you pull and you keep pulling and pretty soon it's like the
09:17whole the whole house is crashing down so yeah it's it's very difficult to go
09:23through the deconstruction and I remember going through it there's there's
09:27a part of your makeup your internal makeup that wants to cling to something
09:32and say well something I had was true and so you keep holding on to these
09:36things and you realize that those things were built upon other things that were
09:40false and so you wipe that layer off and you just keep wiping away layers
09:45until you know it really does feel a lot of people mistake what they've
09:50deconstructed as atheism because they have had a false God all of those years
09:55and at the end of it you have deconstructed a false God so you have no
09:59God and some people get stuck right there they don't reconstruct or they
10:04don't you know it's a lot of effort to rebuild your entire life that you have
10:09just washed away with fiction and I remember I came to the point there were
10:15things that William Branham said that were good I'm not going to discredit
10:18those but they all had this twist to them and if you took it for what he said
10:25it was usually a twist and towards some agenda and so if you kept that in your
10:29mind you're literally upholding the framework that's bad and I think one of
10:34there was just a handful of things I kept and one of them was he said over
10:38and over that he liked to baptize his pancakes and syrup I don't fault the man
10:43for that actually that's that's a that's the way you eat a pancake man and right
10:48yeah what was an example of something you decided to keep and that's it so
10:53that's your that's the that's the big punchline yeah that's pretty much it I
11:01mean you know there were some good religious things too but the problem is
11:05when you deconstruct from a religious cult if you hang on to any single thing
11:10that was religious there could be some deception embedded in it and yeah I kept
11:16my eye for years I tried to hold on to something that I had and and there were
11:21things like now after having started reconstruction I'm nowhere even close to
11:26ending it you know but having started to reconstruct my life there are things
11:32that he said that probably match where I am today but if I make the error of
11:38choosing what he said it could also bring some of that false foundation so
11:42there came a point it was about 2000 maybe 14 ish maybe 2015 I wiped a slate
11:49completely empty completely blank in my in my heart I said okay I'm going to
11:56pretend as of today that I've never heard the name Jesus I've never heard
12:01about Christianity tell me more and I started meeting with local pastors and
12:06we started talking through you know and other Christians too we started talking
12:10what are the basics the basic concept of Christianity and I'll admit fully that
12:17that's difficult because depending on which person you talk to and what is
12:21their background you're gonna get vastly different answers and so in the end I
12:27kind of ignored all that as well and okay what does the Bible say I just
12:31started there I read it over and over and probably 10 15 times lost count but
12:37cover to cover I just started over yeah yeah I hear you it's it's kind of where
12:42you come to and I'm so used to right I should say this way I'm so unused to or
12:48not used to going to church now like I only time I mean am I saying this
12:54publicly the only time that I go to church now is to go to our sons our son
12:59goes to a private Christian school and you know they do end-of-year you know
13:05programs right like beginning interview but it's a Presbyterian Church and you
13:10have to know how refreshing it is to actually step in as a as a as somebody
13:15like me who's a who is a recovering former hyper charismatic to step into a
13:21Presbyterian Church it's so refreshing because you get somebody up there that
13:27prays a 15-second prayer it's like oh wow you're not asking me to work up this
13:35manufactured faith of some sort and come in and like with blood sweat and tears
13:40and run down to the altar and oh by the way while we're at it let's heal a few
13:46people which I still believe in all that stuff I still believe in healing and
13:49miracles but like you you you go through so many years of watching this
13:55stuff getting hyped up and and then used as notches on the belt to sort of say
14:04that I've made it as a Christian like I've seen the book the deaf feel you
14:09know the deaf ears open the blind eyes open blah blah blah blah blah so that
14:14they see you step into like a regular plain Jane Presbyterian Church and
14:20somebody prays for five seconds it's so refreshing but I'm like of the opinion
14:25like put everything on the chopping block nothing is off the table and I'm
14:32with you like whatever the perspective is I want to hear it I want to hear
14:36somebody's perspective especially if it's a survivor of abuse what they have
14:41to say and I'll include myself in that because I'm a survivor whatever they or
14:46we have to say needs to be heard however that fits into somebody's theology
14:51because it's it's a real person's experience of how they were damaged yeah
14:56I assist like this yeah and that's really why I do the format that I do I
15:02don't care who you are I've had people who are atheist on here I've had all
15:06kinds of different faiths and some some actually pretty weird beliefs but I just
15:12don't focus on that because I can learn from everyone and they all have an
15:16experience and there's a reason why they have turned out the way that they have
15:20and people need to hear that reason so that's the reason for the format but I
15:25do tell the people who are in the support groups just you know same stage
15:31you're going through right now it's difficult to go to church there comes a
15:36point after you have been under spiritual abuse and religious abuse that
15:41you have to take a step away from the abusers yeah in the same way if you were
15:45if you were under spousal spousal abuse well if you go to a counselor they're
15:51not gonna tell you to immediately enter the dating scene because every if you're
15:55a female every man that you meet is a potential danger to you and you're gonna
15:58have that in the back of your head until you heal and there are people who get so
16:03triggered by church but they were whipped in the charismatic world to
16:07believe forsake yourself not together for to assemble together for the reading
16:13of Scripture for example they beat you in the head with that but they don't
16:17tell you the other half of that 99% of the people who that verse applied to
16:22couldn't read so if they didn't gather together they couldn't hear the Bible
16:27and and even as that verse was written the Bible didn't exist in the Bible form
16:32you know centuries later so I tell them to take it slowly the thing that the the
16:39really destructive thing that these charismatic movements have implanted in
16:43our heads is this false sense of urgency it has to happen now you're gonna miss
16:49it if it doesn't happen today it's gonna happen tomorrow yes the first thing you
16:54have to recover from when you escape because you have this urgency to get
16:59back in the church and you make mistakes and you some people get
17:02re-victimized because they'll join another cult have to get rid of the
17:06urgency oh 100% it's and you know and I have not done the deep dive I think that
17:12you have in this but you know looking at this now it's a now theology the the
17:19dominionism now like it has to happen now right there you know by this time
17:26tomorrow everything will change I mean I've heard that line more times I can
17:30count at Bethel so it's like you're standing in your spot you're hearing
17:36this message right now in this building and unless you make the decision to
17:41respond to this now word then it's FOMO fear of missing out you're gonna miss it
17:48you're gonna miss what are you gonna miss you're gonna miss you're gonna get
17:51derailed in your destiny right you're going to miss the next latest and
17:55greatest anointing you're going to miss a prophetic word oh and by the way
18:00you're not gonna impact the world like you were destined to do so it's like
18:03this compounding snowball that frickin just lambast you and you get that time
18:10and time and time again and I've been out of it for 13 years but as I talk
18:15about it it's just as fresh as it was yesterday like I mean my wife and I've
18:21been deconstructing since 20 what 2011 we started deconstructing in 2011 and
18:31so before it became a fad right right now it's like really popular
18:35deconstruct but we've been doing this for a while it's not you know we have
18:40we've been out of church for a long time and so but it's still like such a
18:43multi-layered long process it's intellectual it's emotional it's
18:50spiritual it's relational it's financial it covers the gamut the entire
18:55gamut so and so it's not a quick process as you know no it takes a while well I
19:02mean picture your average person who grew up in a quote-unquote normal church
19:06whatever that means to the listener who's listening you grew up under
19:12certain things that were concepts that you had to learn before you could learn
19:17the next concept and each similar to what the way the way you deconstruct you
19:22take off layer by layer by layer well these people have had some of them 30
19:27years to build up the layers of true foundation while we just tore down false
19:31foundation so you can't even really expect to be even close to them for 20
19:3730 years but because there's that sense of urgency people dive into it and they
19:42try to reconstruct quickly and in my opinion there's danger in doing that and
19:47there's a whole lot of spiritual leaders that see it as this open field or
19:52opportunity to gain new converts to Christianity I think they need to take a
19:58step back and understand what is deconstruction and reconstruction yeah I
20:02love that you know it seems like there are more people talking about
20:07reconstruction I think Blaise and Christina for a who and they've become
20:12one of the sort of you know influencers in the IHOP scandal they've really done
20:18a great job of speaking out and helping people walk through it but they've
20:21talked about reconstructing and I love what they've shared and that that is
20:27gonna look different for each person right I mean some people choose to
20:30deconstruct and they don't reconstruct and it's like look I'm throwing
20:34everything out and I just want to start a new life and believe something
20:38different and you know what that's the beauty of being a human is you can do
20:42that you can just make that decision I think for me personally it it's not
20:49quite as simple because the deconstruction process has been very
20:55very layered and long term but for me with that it's not just deconstruction
21:02it's I'm you know working with therapists working with other people
21:07that I trust to help me unpack and heal from this and like I'm pursuing that and
21:16it's you know it takes a while so it's not just a matter of hey I'm gonna throw
21:21out what I used to believe it's like no I have trauma I actually have trauma
21:25that I'm navigating through painful trauma and relational like you know
21:31relational breakups that you have and there's just a lot of loss that goes on
21:37behind the scenes I think that's that's more and more talked about now than it
21:41was before but it's still very much I think a nascent concept that there's a
21:48lot more going on than what meets the eye in the individual person's life
21:52yeah it's a lot of work to have to go through that because you have to
21:57relearn everything and you're starting from scratch at least I started from
22:01scratch and you know there's this the other problem that I see with the
22:06cares mania is that the God that they have presented like I said it's a false
22:10God so you're tearing down this false God but he's a very domineering
22:15narcissistic personality you know whip you into shape and whip you into shape
22:20right now or you're gonna be doomed to hell he's that kind of God and so when
22:25people reconstruct a lot of times they struggle to understand what is the God
22:31of the Bible and worse than that the God that the cares mania has taught you
22:36is really powerless because if you were an atheist and you go astray the
22:43salvation is on your shoulders not on God's whereas if you believe the
22:47Christian God and he's all-powerful all-knowing I'm close friends with
22:52several people who have left the cult and they have chosen to be atheist
22:56because who am I to say that 20 years from now 30 years from now God doesn't
23:01lead them back into God you know what I'm saying if God is a powerful God that
23:05the Bible speaks of we we have to believe that that's going to be the case
23:09yeah no absolutely and you know it's the age-old probably the oldest theological
23:16debate in the book right between you know is God sovereign or do we have
23:21free will and we're so binary in the way we look at things in Western culture you
23:26know it's either on or off one or zeros you know everything's digital zeros and
23:31ones and but but isn't it both don't we have a free will and isn't God also like
23:38if you believe in God isn't he also I don't know I don't know what your word
23:43is but isn't powerful yeah I mean I wonder that myself like what what what
23:50what are all the things that don't happen every day that could have
23:54happened that were bad like think about it like and I don't understand why some
24:00people get into a car accident in rush hour and other people don't like I'm
24:05thankful I didn't get one on the way to my office today but all that stuff comes
24:10in play when you try to figure out what life means because yeah we have a free
24:15will we think but then when you've been pumped with this belief like you said
24:19that it all rests on my shoulders like this is all about the the depth of the
24:25well of faith that I have to engage God to pull him down right so and we're
24:30gonna we're gonna release and manifest heaven on earth yeah but when you take
24:36that theology when you take that belief system to the nth degree you end up with
24:41what's going on at Reading right now Reading California where Bethel is they
24:46are literally infiltrating City Council and I'm all for you know being a light
24:54in the darkness but they've taken to the point where they're in City Council they
24:58use the Convention Center for their events in the school their their fingers
25:04are literally in everything real estate that just massive you know real estate
25:09investments they have a huge influence on the local real estate market so all
25:15these things are outwork is of believing that it's our responsibility to like
25:19bring this Dominion to earth and you know what it reminds me of John it
25:23reminds me of things I've read about the the Crusades back in you know back what
25:30was that like around a thousand AD or so ish it's very similar yeah I had the
25:37conversation the other day with a therapist and we were talking about the
25:41version of religion that these guys are touting is completely overturned by the
25:47thief on the cross this guy didn't believe Jesus his whole life he wasn't a
25:50convert he didn't have that sense of urgency and Jesus said today you'll be
25:54with me in paradise how can you apply that to the theology that comes out of
25:59cares mania you simply can't and to your point about the car wreck so there are
26:05things I don't share them often because I I strongly keep my personal journey
26:10away from the podcast I don't want the public I don't want them to follow me or
26:15my religion or anything I'm not a pastor anything like this but one of the things
26:20that I did overturn which I will say this publicly is that the car wreck
26:25thing so some people die in a car wreck and they're good Christians other people
26:29who are atheists drive the same street and they live through it how can you how
26:34can you answer this we'll see the cares mania and Latarania have taught such a
26:41false version of God that it became a rabbit's foot God if you stayed in the
26:48staying and you rubbed a little rabbit's foot God he's gonna protect you when you
26:52drive down the street or I was with one person and they they were trying to find
26:57a parking place and literally zoomed into the parking place and cut some
27:02family off that we're getting ready to turn in there and then bowed down and
27:06said oh lord thank you for giving me this parking place so close my back
27:10hurts and I'm like come on you just cut you cut that person off yeah they they
27:15have invented a new God and it is a rabbit's foot God and if you rub it then
27:19you get a sort of a miracle it's so true oh my gosh it's so true your analogy
27:25about the rabbit's foot you know what my wife and I've talked about is the the
27:30lottery God like yeah I was just actually it's funny I was on the phone
27:37two nights ago with the old friend of mine who used to be at Bethel we hadn't
27:42talked in years and we were kind of unpacking and talking through for like
27:47two hours about Bethel stuff and and that's one of the things we're talking
27:51about I was like like if you really boil it down like there's a slot machine I
27:55pull a slot machine for it to you know to get healed I pull a slot machine for
28:00financial blessing okay I'm gonna pull the slot machine for what else did I
28:05miss the perfect spouse like pull that slot machine like and so this ends up
28:13becoming this very me centered ecosystem where whatever I want out of the slot
28:22machine I pull it so here's the problem though what if you pull the slot machine
28:26and you don't get triple sevens yeah you know it's it's this big religion of a
28:34casino right but there is one difference you get an apostle there that's going to
28:38kick the slot machine and try to make it come out in your favor yeah or or maybe
28:45they tell you know you're reading the numbers wrong you're actually the
28:48numbers actually say triple seven it's just your vision bad so but but like
28:55it's true though like that's the that's that's really the practical outworking
29:01and I'm gonna count it and so now I I go back and I I think in my brain the
29:09offering deck I don't know have you ever heard of the Bethel offering
29:12declaration before I have not heard so there's a lot of financial language in
29:18there okay so in some of this stuff every Sunday you're saying you know
29:23raises and bonuses estates and inheritances rebates and returns checks
29:29in the mail gifts and surprises debts paid off less season increase these are
29:36the things that like I even remember today so well because it's ingrained in
29:40my in my head I'm gonna count it by profession and here's the here's the
29:47thing though here's my my objection to the offering declaration if you want to
29:52raise in a bonus you're probably gonna have to add more value to your employer
29:57to get a raise in a bonus it's not this slot machine that I pull or oh by the
30:05way estates and inheritance you know it has to happen for somebody to for you to
30:08have an estate and inheritance somebody has to die
30:13what we're doing is there you're offering you're declaring and hoping
30:17that people are gonna die so you inherit their money like think about it just
30:22brain for a second and think about that that's the kind of stuff that we're told
30:28is the gospel and I'm not saying God can't bless people and you know do
30:34financial miracles of course but like when that becomes the norm you're
30:38setting people up for a disaster have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal
30:44movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostal ism transition
30:48through the latter rain charismatic and other fringe movements into the new
30:53apostolic Reformation you can learn this and more on William Branham historical
30:58research's website William dash Branham org on the books page of the website you
31:04can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley Stephen
31:09Montgomery John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital
31:14versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation on various
31:20people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to
31:24the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the
31:29top and as always be sure to LIKE and subscribe to the audio or video version
31:34that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William Branham historical
31:38research we want to thank you for your support it's so wrong and whether it's
31:43the rabbit's foot God or the slot I'm gonna use that from now on the slot
31:47machine and the irony if you've studied my podcast the irony is that all of this
31:52started in a casino in Jeffersonville Indiana yeah Branham was he can go back
31:58I can't remember what episode it was but this whole thing started because Branham
32:02and his family lived on a casino and they on the grounds at a casino and they
32:08were producing liquor for Al Capone and the mob oh yes okay I did listen to that
32:13piece yeah yeah so the irony this is more of a slot machine religion than it
32:19was but see the faith healing aspect that was that was pure rabbit's foot
32:23because if you believe that you went into the staying you could rub the foot
32:26and you know I knew people who suffered tremendously through their life until
32:32they died believing that and confessing that they had been healed so they're
32:37rubbing a rabbit's foot that did nothing but still giving reverence to the
32:41rabbit's foot their whole lives and you know part of my journey out which I also
32:47talked very little about but I had a family member who was suffering very
32:53very much with cancer and the rabbit's foot God just simply did not work and
32:58it's it's horrific what they put in your heads and to the financial aspect
33:04you know that's a very sad story but you're right for the financial aspect
33:08they want you to give them money and pretend that you're gonna get some back
33:11by pulling the slot machine but who's the one who rakes in all the money it's
33:16the casinos totally it's so it's actuarial science you know if you want
33:22to go in and research that it's that's what it is there would be no viable
33:27business model for a casino or even an insurance company for example life
33:33insurance company the only reason that makes sense is because the probability
33:37of a payout is lower than the probability of a pay in and so you're
33:42absolutely right like the casinos most of the time probably what nine out of
33:47ten times I don't know what the statistic is they're they're gonna end
33:50up ahead because they're they're taking in more money than they are giving out
33:56and you're right it's like the churches are now structured where all the money
34:01flows to the top and the honor culture is a manifestation of that I think I
34:07think that and how much of that came from Branham I mean what me was there
34:13this honor culture in the Branham organizations where it's like all the
34:20deference all of the respect all of the really everything just flows up that
34:25pyramid at the top was that something that was pushed down from Branham into
34:32latter rain and then now into our charismatic movements or is that
34:35something that they added later well it was a collaboration so I'm I'm working
34:40on my manuscript for my next book which is on the NAR which does cover Branham
34:45history but remember there were hundreds of these men and there wasn't just one
34:49movement that combined to create the NAR some of these were the Christian
34:54businessmen so you being accountant you understand when you turn religion into a
34:59business there's a lot of money that can be made in it so you had a Christian
35:03businessman that formed you also had the chapter them working on right now I'm
35:09I'm talking through the or writing through the Fellowship International
35:14this is one of the most covert and deceptive espionage aspects of the NAR
35:22today there there was a gentleman who ran it I think until 2017 ish named Doug
35:29Coe he they referred to this as yeah so they referred to this as a family yeah
35:35the quote-unquote family about this mm-hmm well he was referred to as the
35:40godfather because their family literally controlled everything and not just
35:46simply in religion also in politics people like Hillary Clinton were
35:50involved in the family and they kept secrets so the congressman that they're
35:55grooming could go into these houses and sleep around with other women and they
36:00all kept it secret actually that's how the family became exposed so that they
36:05could have this this what is it 20 2022 documentary I think it's 2009 there were
36:11several congressmen that got caught going to the houses owned by the family
36:15sleeping around with with strange women and it all got exposed but the
36:21godfather kept it up as a secret and once you're part of the family you're
36:26part of the family we keep your secrets but the moment you leave you become at
36:31risk because just like the mafia we you have once you're a member you're always
36:36a member basically and so that's just one aspect there were numerous groups
36:41that merged to form the NAR some of them like this that had espionage
36:47networks globally into politics religion military everything else so and you know
36:53I've heard bits and pieces you know mainly on Twitter and I think you talked
36:56about it to one of your last episodes maybe with all and related to Paul Kane
37:03and his involvement with the CIA and I forgot the name of the program was a
37:07Stargate or something like that and I mean there are people who have
37:11firsthand knowledge about this on Twitter I won't name any names but who
37:16have actually spoken to Paul Kane about this and I know you spoke to Paul Kane
37:19too but like was that is that a part of this family or is that just kind of
37:26extension of it or you know what was that I mean how did he get into that how
37:36was he invited into that was he a part of the family too or was that some
37:39separate yes so this well first off I'll answer the first part of the question
37:44Stargate is one of my favorite movies of all time and it was this excellent TV
37:50series if you haven't seen it that's completely separate from Paul Kane but
37:55um anyway so this this edge is very close to conspiracy theory which I avoid
38:02and I don't put on my website had it not actually been documented I would
38:07never have put it on my website but there was a organization it was a black
38:13ops government organization and it was it was called MK ultra I believe was the
38:20official code name yeah so these guys working with the government they were
38:27trying to covertly stop outside of the public vote they were being commissioned
38:32to stop what they believed to be a uprising of people with black skin so
38:39when you consider the latter rain and all of the Christian identity folk that
38:43were in this that was their number one mission to stop the people with black
38:47skin so unfortunately we don't have a document linking them directly to Branham
38:53what we do have whenever this was discovered that the government was doing
38:58this they burned and destroyed every single document just shredded
39:03everything but they missed an entire room of 10,000 documents so that's how
39:09we know that this existed and they did things like they commissioned the
39:15sanctioning of people to go spread LSD on the streets to black people so the
39:21black people could get they believe that they would become so doped up that there
39:25wouldn't be the Civil War that they felt was imminent so anyway this there's
39:31a movie out there it's a terrible movie but it's called men who stare at goats
39:36George Clooney's in it Brad Pitt and has all the makings of a good movie but it
39:41will bore the heck out of you they had they had covert operatives within this
39:47organization who were doing things like staring at goats to see if they could
39:51control the goats mind so when you consider everything that they were doing
39:56even if we don't have documentation you had these faith healers that were
40:01claiming that they could see visions and prophesy and control people which the
40:06government noticed hey there's this whole group of cares mania that are
40:10actually controlling the minds can we weaponize this sort of invite some of
40:17those exactly you know influencers in like Paul Kane yeah I discovered it by
40:23accident because there was a claim that Jim Jones was in this thing which I've
40:28talked to the heads of the Jonestown Institute they say it's very unlikely so
40:32I have to I have to go by their assessment but I can assure you that
40:38naming the people that were connected to Branham that were also connected to the
40:43family that were connected to Nazi Germany and other things I can say that
40:49this is probably likely that Paul Kane was telling the truth but I can't prove
40:53it yeah well there are some people on Twitter talking publicly about it you
40:58know that they they were told very explicitly by Paul you know of the
41:03involvement that he claimed to have in that program you know the CIA but but
41:08yeah I mean it's it's like it's wild like that you get to your way out there
41:14and even spy land with this stuff like yeah that's how that's how pervasive and
41:23influential these movements are well and when you consider the the family the
41:29Fellowship International it was an international like the National Prayer
41:33Breakfast we have today they set this up globally and so I just in fact I'll
41:40try to pull it up for the podcast I don't know if I can find it again but I
41:42was reading an article where they were branded as one of the elite covert
41:47espionage operations that were spying on governments of not just the United States
41:52but other countries so when you consider the fact that Paul Kane William Branham
41:57I've got a photo of Branham at this prayer breakfast with Nixon so when you
42:01consider all these guys were connected to this thing and they're connected to
42:05international leaders you could you could make the leap to say that the
42:08family is what brought Paul Kane into contact with all of this yeah it makes
42:14sense I mean it's just about like a logical jump to conclude that so you
42:19have some experience with International House of Prayer or IHOP and right now
42:23it's it's the number one hottest topic on my website so be good if you just
42:28told a little bit about some of that experience yeah so kind of like I
42:32alluded to in the beginning so I moved to Kansas City in 2004 there's a whole
42:39story to how that happened but essentially moved out there to pursue a
42:45program that was affiliated with Metro Christian Fellowship indirectly related
42:51to church planning and missions and so through that process because of the
42:57affiliation with IHOP because IHOP was was kind of post Metro and Mike was
43:03pastor of Metro he left Metro I think in 2000 if I remember correctly because
43:10it's he started IHOP in 99 so I got to Kansas City in 2004 was very much
43:15involved in the prayer room I was not officially in their programs or anything
43:20but I you know went to the prayer room new people there and there were
43:24definitely overlaps of community that was a part of IHOP and then also the
43:30organization I was a part of so from that standpoint exposure to IHOP became
43:36pretty forefront you know the prayer movement the 24-7 prayer their worship
43:45that became very formative to me in my walk with the Lord and very influential
43:50and so I was only in Kansas City for two years but like I said knew a lot of the
43:57people at IHOP in Metro and so and then after that after spending some time on
44:04the mission field came back and actually moved to Bethel to Reading in 2007 so I
44:11was at Bethel from 2007 to 2011 and so it was like the IHOP slash Metro layer
44:19and then built on top of that the Bethel so all that stuff was like pumped
44:22into me I was net deep in it very influential and at the time you know I
44:27thought this was like the pinnacle of Christianity right like you're in the
44:31so many people said that you're in the elite special forces of Christianity
44:37where we see you know dreams visions miracles healings dead being raised and
44:44but it wasn't until we left Bethel we actually left Bethel in 2011 and I made
44:53a career change into the world of finance and accounting and through a
44:57whole series of circumstances after Bethel you know kind of started having
45:03eye-opening experience realizing that a lot of the stuff that we have been
45:09exposed to was probably not healthy and you know I have my whole story of going
45:15through some spiritual abuse a couple different times that also created more
45:20distance for me and I just I didn't want to have anything to do with the church
45:22at that point and so yeah we just we stopped going to church we started like
45:29peeling back the onion the layers of things that were that were that we felt
45:35were harmful and were hurtful and damaging and so that kind of started in
45:412011 and then up until last year when the IHOP thing hit I mean I have not
45:46been in the circles of church or really kept up with anything church wise in a
45:52long time so when the when the IHOP stuff hit in Bickel back in October of
45:5823 a lot of people who I had not talked to in 20 years started surfacing on
46:05Twitter and I'm like talking to people that I knew that were involved in the
46:11that were aware and very connected to the Bickel scandal because they knew the
46:17victims they knew the Jane Doe one they knew some of the other folks and I
46:22actually knew a couple of the people firsthand as well and so it became very
46:28personal to me and at that point I decided I have to speak out I've never
46:32spoken out before about anything that I've experienced in these movements and
46:36so that was really a big turning point for me to watch the victims and the
46:42survivors come forward mainly women in their bravery and courage and share
46:48their stories publicly it's like it's snowballed there were so many other
46:54people like myself who decided to come out and begin to share their experience
46:59begin to collectively try to hold IHOP and Mike Bickel accountable try to get
47:07Bethel to speak up to which this day they haven't done and so it's it's still
47:14very much an ongoing process there's a lot left to unpack but I think there's
47:20a groundswell of people who they're just saying enough's enough we're not going
47:25to pretend that this is not happening anymore and I would like to think that
47:31enough voice is speaking out and enough people that stop feeding the cash flow
47:37machine will make a difference so I my wife and I are like we plan to start a
47:42podcast to talk about this stuff not just this but a bunch of other life
47:47stuff business things like that but it's it's very convoluted John I've got a lot
47:53of stuff floating around in the head so if it seems disjointed it probably is I
47:59can only imagine you've been through a lot there's a lot of different things
48:05that would add to the spaghetti mess of trails of theology from all the various
48:10sources so I can't even imagine trying to reconcile some of that and people
48:16ask me you know what's going to happen because after the fall from grace of
48:20Mike Bickel he was an apostle and all these other apostles have lifted him up
48:24for decades now what how does all of that work and I just refer them back
48:30look at the latter rain movement these guys same exact thing has happened for
48:34century of our decades you know going through this and what happens is when
48:39one falls they they come back later and they lift them up as God's general so it
48:44Mike Bickel will be God's general for the for our children one day I'm sure I
48:50don't know I'm I'm only speculating but I could seriously I can look back at
48:55some very very bad people I mean Dowey was the con artist that really was the
49:01prototype for all of this stuff and he has been immortalized as God's general
49:05even though you could literally say that more deaths occurred from his quote
49:11unquote faith healing then small wars I mean there was a frequent occurrence to
49:17watch the hearse come in and stake you know take a body out of the quote-unquote
49:22healing homes so that's the part that you don't see in God's generals about
49:27no no they they leave look he he started his ministry by stealing a church and
49:34they don't you know they leave those kind of things out because if you only
49:38tell the good stuff you can make him look like a saint well that's the case
49:41with everybody that's the case with Mike Bickel if you take all of you know any
49:45of the negative out he's gonna look like a saint so he will probably be
49:48immortalized and I just I just take a step back from it and I I did a podcast
49:56recently and we're talking about the verse in the Bible about the super
50:00apostles and how wrong it was to focus on a man and that's another thing that I
50:06have taken I guess I probably won't go too far with this because it does delve
50:12into theology but the way in which we were taught even the figures in the
50:16Bible were incorrect because we saw them all as God's generals we saw them as
50:22people who were greater in status than other humans that whole framework is
50:27incorrect but I have to be careful who I say that to because there are so many
50:32people that were influenced by this that they want to look at all these humans as
50:37though they were generals and in the end who's in control the general or God and
50:41you have to just take a step back and realize that that whole framework is
50:45incorrect oh you hit such a that's such a million-dollar point because you know
50:52in the cares as you know in the charismatic and probably other movements
50:55but we have idolized we and I think so one of the things that I'm realizing my
51:02wife and I've talked about so many times is why did we find ourselves three
51:08different times in a cultish or cult-like organization okay yes there's
51:15a common thread of a narcissistic leader with grandiose and pompous visions and
51:21you know crazy you know ideas about what they want to do but you also have a
51:27lot of people who decide to come follow that person who probably had a weakness
51:34of some sort and maybe weakness isn't the right word but a need to be
51:38associated with a real influential person you know and and so that's been
51:44like a reflection point for myself is now knowing what I know I don't think I
51:50would find myself in a cult again because that that thing that I needed to
51:55be associated with a with a real famous idolized leader that like that I feel
52:02like that that thing died you know but we're so apt and so quick to put a
52:10person on a pedestal whether you call them a general whether you call them a
52:14you know a figure in the Bible or whoever they were a prophet Apostle
52:18fill-in-the-blank we won't somebody like that as humans we won't somebody
52:23like that in our life that we can idolize and so I think that the
52:27charismatic movement and some of these splinter movements capitalized on that
52:32and that's probably one of the factors that contributed to their to their
52:39growth and influence so it's like getting back what you said getting back
52:44to the Bible the strip away all this stuff that we've been fed let's go back
52:50to the simplicity like the guy on the crawl the thief you know like I mean the
52:55dude killed somebody or robbed somebody or did something really bad and there is
52:58the last second of his life and he's like hey I think I believe this guy to
53:03my left I think he's the real deal you know but he had done anything he didn't
53:08feed the poor he didn't go pray for healing for anybody he didn't give all
53:14of his money to help people it was literally his last minute and he had a
53:21change of heart and he was just as eligible as anybody else yeah so that
53:28throws a wrench into all of our all the stuff we've been told that like this is
53:33you know it's dependent upon what we do to prove that we're worthy of some kind
53:39of blessing so yeah I did a series of podcasts with my cousin who is a
53:46psychotherapist in Florida and we were talking about re-victimization and I
53:52call it rewiring I'm sure he has a much more technical term for the psychology
53:56but after you leave a cult you have to literally reprogram your brain because
54:01they have programmed your brain in a very bad way and it is dramatic and
54:06there are people that like yourself you leave one cult you go to the next you go
54:10to the next and I I have learned as I reevaluate my life and I reconstruct
54:17there's some memories that are excessively painful and there's some
54:22that I give undue fondness towards and especially the people a lot of my
54:29listeners don't get that but I grew up with some of these cult leaders that I
54:33escaped and they were you know I knew them as good people I realized that
54:37there were bad attributes but I knew them as really genuinely good people
54:41even William Branham's son I felt myself to be really close to him but there was
54:47a part of all of this that was evil and as I rewire my brain I'll take a painful
54:53memory and I'll instead try to find some attribute of that painful memory and
54:58think about something that is really enjoyable and rewire it take take the
55:04bad thought now I can replace it with a good thought and that's how I've yeah
55:07I've coped with the leaders that I have so many mixed emotions and when you
55:14leave you want to go find something just like it I have learned I'm a big Bugs
55:17Bunny fan and I've learned to just plug in a face from Looney Tunes to each one
55:21of these guys so I can tell you which leader is Daffy Duck and forever in my
55:26mind this guy is to me he is Daffy Duck and that's I do you know every every
55:38single one oh and I don't know if you know I know this in and out I've watched
55:42so many of these but there was there was the hillbilly Elvis bird and all of
55:46those guys I literally have you know all of these guys if you look at him like
55:51Looney Tunes and and in the end that's really what it is this is a Looney Tune
55:55religion and or a slot machine religion right so I'm definitely going to use
56:01that but thank you so much for for doing this and telling your story and like I
56:06said your wife is ready I'd like to have her on and when you start your podcast
56:11I'd like to help you launch it thank you so much John it's been a pleasure
56:14appreciate you having me on and learned a lot just continue to appreciate your
56:18research and what you're doing in your book and I know a lot of the other folks
56:23you've had on your on your show that's been super helpful for a lot of us just
56:27to kind of help unpack I hop things so keep up the good work appreciate you
56:31well if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information you can check us
56:34out on the web you can find us at William dash Branham org for an overview
56:39of the historical research of William Branham and the healing revivals read
56:43preacher behind the white hoods a critical examination of William Branham
56:47and his message available on Amazon Kindle and audible
57:17you
57:47you