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00:00:00They say, the harder the work, the greater the reward.
00:00:18This is our life's work.
00:00:21Good morning.
00:00:24It is 9.05, Wednesday, June 29th.
00:00:27This is the TDN Writer's Room presented by Keeneland.
00:00:30My name is Joe Bianca.
00:00:31I'm the associate editor of the Third Red Daily News.
00:00:34It's been a major bummer to live in America recently, but I hope everybody has a happy
00:00:38and safe Fourth anyway.
00:00:40You know, I'm kind of down too, Joe.
00:00:43Last night, my Red Sox lost in Toronto because our closer refused to get the vaccine and
00:00:48couldn't travel up there.
00:00:49And we had to pitch a scrub who got killed in the ninth inning.
00:00:52Personal freedoms, my, you know what?
00:00:55Do it for the team, fellas.
00:00:56God damn it.
00:00:58Wait, who is that that's talking?
00:01:00We didn't even get an intro.
00:01:02Oh yeah, that's me, Bill Finley.
00:01:04That's right.
00:01:05I'm just Red Sox guy now.
00:01:06Yeah, exactly.
00:01:07For those of you who are actually listening to the podcast as opposed to viewing it, we
00:01:11want to make sure that you get attributed to your quality work.
00:01:14You got it.
00:01:15Jonathan Green, general manager of DJ Stable, and guys, even though we've been doing this
00:01:19for over two years, according to the criteria posted by the American Graded Stakes Committee,
00:01:25we still wouldn't be eligible for a Graded Stakes promotion yet.
00:01:29The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:01:32Make plans to attend the Keeneland September Yearling Sale beginning Monday, September
00:01:3512th.
00:01:36You can learn more at theworldyearlingsale.com.
00:01:38All right, so we got some news to get to today, which we're going to get to a little bit later,
00:01:43including a resolution on the Bob Baffert-Nyra kerfuffle, finally, but we wanted to talk
00:01:48about this off the top because this was in Bill's Week in Review and it generated a lot
00:01:53of discussion, a lot of buzz, and honestly, Bill with his Week in Reviews has obviously
00:01:58seemed like he's...
00:01:59I'm his ghost writer recently because he's saying all of this stuff that I love and that
00:02:02just hits me right in the heart.
00:02:04I feel like kind of like...
00:02:05You remember the movie Ghost where Patrick Swayze is like moving the pen for the Goldman
00:02:10Charter?
00:02:11I feel like I'm Patrick Swayze in this instance, but no, he was writing about how there's too
00:02:16many Graded Stakes races, too many stakes races.
00:02:18We'll go to the glasses for this.
00:02:19I just wanted to quote him.
00:02:22They can only scrape together a field of four for Saturday's Mother Goose at Belmont, run
00:02:25two weeks after they had a field of four for the Acorn, and then Saturday's third race
00:02:30at Belmont Fair, no better.
00:02:31Only four went in the Wild Applause Stakes, three of them trained by Chad Brown.
00:02:35It's not just a Nyra problem.
00:02:37The number of stakes run across the country that have attracted five horses or fewer is
00:02:41alarming.
00:02:42Since May 7th, the Derby Day, there have been 21 Graded or enlisted races that had five
00:02:47horse fields.
00:02:48A list that includes some of the biggest races on the calendar, like the Met Mile, the Ogden
00:02:51Phipps, the Hollywood Gold Cup, six more Graded Stakes consisted of just four runners.
00:02:57It's a major problem and it's something that the industry does not seem like it's going
00:03:00to address anytime soon, but Bill is a thousand percent right.
00:03:03There's too many races, too many Graded Stakes races, and it's an unbettable product.
00:03:07Now, the problem is, to me at least, that people are still going to bet it because it's
00:03:11Belmont Park, it's Churchill Downs, it's the major tracks, and people are still going to
00:03:16line up and bet those horses.
00:03:18Unfortunately, I think this is a problem that is not going to get solved anytime soon, but
00:03:22that's why we're bringing it up on this very show to maybe try to gather some momentum
00:03:27and some buzz.
00:03:28Bill, would you care to expand on your article?
00:03:29Yeah, I mean, that's exactly it, Joe.
00:03:31The racing industry has not addressed this and has not addressed it at all.
00:03:35What I tried to do was put some numbers to back up what is going on here.
00:03:39I picked 2007 because that was, 15 years ago, a nice round number.
00:03:44There were 34,000 foals.
00:03:46This year, there'll be about 17,000.
00:03:48The foal crop is down 50%.
00:03:50I'm not saying that the number of stakes should be down 50%, but it certainly should be down
00:03:55significantly.
00:03:56I mean, you can't have half as many foals and run as many Stakes races.
00:03:59The amount of Graded Stakes races in the country and the number of Graded ones is down in both
00:04:03categories about 5%.
00:04:06This is the problem, and it's very obvious.
00:04:08There are too many Stakes races, and there are not enough horses to fill the races.
00:04:14As the foal crop continues to go down, horses run less and less, this is a problem that's
00:04:18only going to get worse all the time.
00:04:22There's two problems here and two areas that need to be addressed.
00:04:25One is the Graded Stakes Committee.
00:04:27They should have taken a bomb to this, blown it up, gotten rid of dozens, if not even a
00:04:35hundred or so Graded Stakes races.
00:04:37Threes go to listed, twos go to threes, ones go to two, et cetera.
00:04:41They haven't done a single thing.
00:04:42A Graded Stakes race today is not at all the equivalent of a Graded Stakes race of 15 years
00:04:49ago, especially when you get broodmares in there trying to get black type.
00:04:52You run third in a Grade 3 in a five-horse field.
00:04:54What if you really accomplish it, and you get that same black type?
00:04:58I went so far as also to say, what would be wrong with just getting rid of some of these
00:05:02races?
00:05:03Look, it would be a little bit of a tough love, but I brought up the mother goose.
00:05:08That race has no place on the NIRA calendar.
00:05:11Two weeks after the acorn comes on top of the coaching club at Saratoga, it's a recipe
00:05:18for disaster.
00:05:19It's a $250,000 Grade 2 race.
00:05:21Just get rid of it.
00:05:23Put the $250,000 into the acorn.
00:05:25Make that a $750,000 race, and make it a mile and eighth, and you've solved your problem
00:05:29right there.
00:05:30I realize that's a tough thing to suggest.
00:05:33Nobody's going to say, oh, boy, I can't wait to get rid of a bunch of stakes races, but
00:05:36don't we have to do something?
00:05:39Bill, I loved your article, and there were a lot of points in there that are indisputable
00:05:44and are just facts, quite frankly.
00:05:47You mentioned a lot of them as far as the way the trends are going for foals, the crop
00:05:52size is decreasing every year.
00:05:55You wonder at some points, and we've talked about it a lot, why are some of these races
00:06:00graded?
00:06:01Why wouldn't they downgrade it?
00:06:03There's a whole process and criteria where, if you ever wanted to look it up on TOBA.org,
00:06:09there's voluminous information as far as what the criteria is.
00:06:13They have a platform and a formula on how to do it.
00:06:18That being said, there are too many races.
00:06:20There are too many stake races.
00:06:21There are too many graded stake races.
00:06:23I think we can talk about that ad nauseum.
00:06:27It's not going to change, though, unfortunately, because from the breeding standpoint, the
00:06:31lifeblood of the breeding industry are black type.
00:06:34Whenever you look at a catalog page, the first thing that somebody's going to say is, well,
00:06:39where's the black type?
00:06:40How much black type does this family have?
00:06:41How many stake winners?
00:06:42How many stake runners?
00:06:43Et cetera.
00:06:44How many graded stake winners?
00:06:46That is putting the burden on people who are buying the horses now, where they actually
00:06:51have to do a little more homework.
00:06:53It used to be 15 years ago, Bill and Joe, where if a horse ran third in a grade three,
00:06:59that was legitimate.
00:07:00It was probably an eight or 10 horse field.
00:07:02The horse probably had to really work hard in order to place in a graded stake race,
00:07:06and it earned that grade three, grade two, grade one stamp.
00:07:11Nowadays, where we're talking about all these graded stake races, and there's four horse
00:07:17fields, you really just have to beat the ambulance in order to be graded stakes placed.
00:07:22Do a lot of people look at that when they look at the Keeneland September sale?
00:07:25Did they look to see how many horses were in the race?
00:07:27No.
00:07:28Did they look to see what kind of buyer number or sheet number the horse ran in order to
00:07:32finish first, second, or third?
00:07:33No.
00:07:34Why?
00:07:35Because it's too hard.
00:07:37It's extra work that they have to do.
00:07:38Shame on them for not doing the extra work.
00:07:43We talk about the Mother Goose in particular because the timing of the race is terrible
00:07:46in comparison to where some of these other races are.
00:07:49That being said, I'm just going to be a little contrarian.
00:07:51You look at the four horses that ran in the race, Gerrymander, who won the race, finished
00:07:56second in the grade one in the frisette as a two-year-old.
00:08:00Shahamab was a grade three winner, albeit overseas, but a grade three winner.
00:08:04Juju's Map finished, or excuse me, won the Alcibiades as a two-year-old.
00:08:10Venti Valentine was second by a neck in the Demoiselles in the grade two.
00:08:16Of the four horses that actually ran, I don't think you can make the case that these weren't
00:08:20legitimate graded stakes fillies.
00:08:23That's just a quinking in my estimation.
00:08:27If we looked at other races, you could find a lot of bad horses that are running in there
00:08:30that are hoping to get third place and hoping to get black tight.
00:08:34Again, to go back to the Mother Goose, Gerrymander ran a 95 buyer, which if you look at other
00:08:39... I know it's only one criteria, but if you look at other graded stake races for three-year-old
00:08:43fillies going long, a 95 buyer would put you in contention for the majority of them.
00:08:48This particular race, this particular group of horses in this particular race probably
00:08:53isn't a great example, but I can't argue against what you guys are saying as far as there are
00:08:59way too many.
00:09:00There are way too many.
00:09:01We don't need to have four horse fields in general.
00:09:03It doesn't do the public any good.
00:09:04It doesn't do the bettors any good.
00:09:05It certainly doesn't do the racetracks any good.
00:09:07Nobody wants to run these races with four or five horse fields.
00:09:11Until the membership of the American Graded Stakes Committee, until they're not composed
00:09:18of six breeders, most of them Kentucky breeders, none of this is ever going to change.
00:09:23Nobody's going to take away the graded status after they've earned it, even though we all
00:09:28agree and we've all talked about it ad nauseum that a lot of these graded stake races just
00:09:32are really glorified allowance races.
00:09:34Can I be the next campaign is to get John on the American Graded Stakes Committee after
00:09:40the breeders cut board?
00:09:41Oh, wait, he's a breeder too, so I don't think we can trust John to fix this thing either.
00:09:46Honestly, it's not so much that the mother goose had terrible horses, it's just that
00:09:51those horses should have been the acorn and we should have had a nine or 10 horse field
00:09:54in the acorn instead of the four horse field in the acorn and the four horse field and
00:09:59the mother goose.
00:10:00And that's the other thing.
00:10:01It's not just that, as Bill mentions, the fall crop is so far down, it's 50% when it
00:10:05was almost 15, 20 years ago.
00:10:08It's that the calendar is lined up with training methods that don't exist anymore.
00:10:14The calendar is such that you could have a horse running back in three, four weeks
00:10:19and actually make these fields a little bit bigger, but trainers aren't going to do that
00:10:22anymore.
00:10:23So not only are we misaligned with the fall crop size, we're misaligned with the way that
00:10:28trainers actually train and run their horses.
00:10:31So we're two in the hall, I think, in terms of trying to structure the schedule to line
00:10:35up with the modern day racing.
00:10:37And the other thing is like Bill says, you can put the $250,000 into the acorn purse
00:10:43or you can just put it into the overnight and beef up allowances and maiden races.
00:10:47Because those are the races that I think in general are going to get more field, get more
00:10:51field size and get more people to bet on them.
00:10:53I think the main issue is that these fields are unbettable.
00:10:56Like if you're just a fan and you're not really a racing better, you probably don't even care.
00:11:02You're probably like, why are these guys starting the show complaining about this problem that
00:11:07doesn't really affect me at all.
00:11:08But if you're a better and you open up the Saturday PPS at Belmont and there's a bunch
00:11:13of stakes races and you see four horses, five horses, six horses, they have an all winner
00:11:17at Santa Anita, same thing.
00:11:18It's depressing and it makes you not want to bet those cards.
00:11:21So I think that problem is going to come crashing in eventually, I think, you know, maybe like
00:11:27I kind of actually hope the handle goes down on some of these big cards where they just,
00:11:31they cannot get these fields bigger than five or six horses, because that's the only way
00:11:35I think it gets rectified is if people stop betting these cards and, you know, go bet
00:11:40like Canterbury or, you know, Indiana or one of these tracks that has full fields and low
00:11:44takeout.
00:11:45But it's, I understand obviously the allure of betting these star studded fields at Belmont
00:11:49and Saratoga.
00:11:50But I worry, I worry with Saratoga coming up, you know, we're all going to be excited
00:11:54for Saratoga.
00:11:55We're going to talk about it a bunch.
00:11:56We're going to bet it.
00:11:57But I just worry on some of these cards and some of these stakes races, the field sizes
00:12:00we're going to get.
00:12:03The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland.
00:12:05Graded stakes winning Keeneland sales grads from this past weekend include the grade two
00:12:09Mother Goose winner, Jerry Mander, grade three Ohio Derby winner, Tawny Port, and grade three
00:12:13Chicago handicap winner, Lady Rockets.
00:12:15That's a sweep.
00:12:16There were three graded stakes over the weekend, Keeneland sales grads swept them.
00:12:20Before Keeneland hosts the Breeders' Cup World Championships for the third time, the track's
00:12:23annual fall meet will offer 22 stakes worth a record $8.75 million.
00:12:28The 17-day season kicks off on October 7th, will open with 11 stakes, nine of which are
00:12:34part of the Breeders' Cup winning year-end series during its three-day fall stars weekend.
00:12:38Cannot wait for that.
00:12:39Fall meet public ticket sales will begin August 16th, and to learn more, you can go to tickets.keeneland.com.
00:12:45We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
00:12:59Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Keeneland September Year-End Sale.
00:13:03A terrific maternal pedigree, grade one winners, and champions across the base.
00:13:08Echoes of parties! Life is good! Let's go, superstars!
00:13:14Go to the back. Good luck.
00:13:19Spicetown
00:13:22Bunnings
00:13:26EchoTown
00:13:29It's EchoTown for Joe Palomo, and EchoTown breaks the wave.
00:13:34And EchoTown is drawing away in the stretch. EchoTown wins the Alan Turkin Stakes.
00:13:39A sire line so prolific, it repeats itself. EchoTown.
00:13:49The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Coolmore.
00:13:51Triple crown winner, Justify, had a Sunday double this weekend.
00:13:55First, he got his first stakes winner when Statuette won the Group 2 Early Stud Stakes at the Curragh.
00:13:59And then later at Churchill Downs, Prove Wright won a Maiden Specialweight.
00:14:03Justify now has two stakes performers and four winners from just eight starters.
00:14:06So, obviously off to a great start.
00:14:08And also this weekend, fellow triple crown winner, American Pharoah, had his 30th stakes winner
00:14:12when his daughter, Reframe, won the listed Paradise Stakes in Tokyo on Sunday.
00:14:16And then Uncle Mo scored his 11th TDN Rising Star with Summer Promise,
00:14:20who was a debut winner at Churchill for D. Wayne Lucas.
00:14:23I think American Pharoah has five Grade 1 winners now as well.
00:14:26So, he's obviously killing it.
00:14:28Him and Constitution are at the top of that star-studded fourth crop sire list.
00:14:32And American Pharoah, you know, you're expecting him to be, I think, to be a good sire
00:14:36because of the quality of mares he's gotten.
00:14:38But I think he's even exceeded the expectations,
00:14:40which is hard to do as the first triple crown winner to retire to stud in 30-some-odd years.
00:14:45It's honestly super impressive, I think, what he's been able to do on both turf and dirt.
00:14:50So, those Pharoah babies are going to keep running and keep running big.
00:14:53Hey, Joe, how about the fact that they just announced that American Pharoah and Justify
00:14:57have been bred to so many mares, they're so popular here in the States,
00:15:00that they're not sending them to Southern Hemisphere this year.
00:15:02They're not sending them to Australia because they want to make sure
00:15:04that those horses are really potent for next year's opening breeding season.
00:15:08I mean, if that doesn't, you know, scream how popular they are, I don't know what does.
00:15:12Yeah, and it was, honestly, when I read that news,
00:15:14I just was thinking back to when I was at Ashford,
00:15:18and they brought out one triple crown winner, and they brought out another triple crown winner.
00:15:21I was like, yo, this is special. This is a very special moment.
00:15:24Alright, so like I said, in the Open, we finally got a resolution to the whole Bob Baffert and Naira Scrum.
00:15:29If you remember, it goes all the way back to last May.
00:15:32It was around the time of the Preakness last year when Naira first suspended Bob Baffert indefinitely
00:15:36after the whole Medina Spirit controversy.
00:15:38There was a lot of legal back and forth.
00:15:40Eventually, the case went to a hearing officer who was a retired New York State Supreme Court Justice.
00:15:47He recommended a two-year suspension, and then last week, a three-member panel
00:15:51came back with a one-year suspension for Bob Baffert at Naira, 365 days.
00:15:57Now, he was given credit for time served for the suspensions that Naira gave him in the first place,
00:16:02which I think ended up being like two months before it got reversed by a judge,
00:16:05and then also the suspension that he's currently serving, which was handed down by the KHRC.
00:16:10So in the end, he's going to be eligible to run at Naira Tracks again next January,
00:16:16January 23rd, so in effect, it's only about six or seven months from now.
00:16:22There's not a ton to say about that.
00:16:24I really enjoyed the break.
00:16:26I enjoyed the reprieve from the Bob Baffert news that we've had for the last couple of months.
00:16:30We vowed.
00:16:31I vowed on this show that we weren't going to talk about him or any of the legal issues,
00:16:36but this time, the news came crashing through a little bit.
00:16:39I think we can all move on now, guys.
00:16:41Can Bob Baffert just accept his penalty, move on?
00:16:46He's going to come back this summer, probably win a bunch of stakes, probably going to win the Haskell again.
00:16:51In the end, it was a very limited interruption to his business.
00:16:54That was a Naira thing.
00:16:55It was a little bit of a bigger deal.
00:16:57But at the end of the day, how many racing days is he really going to miss in New York
00:17:01because of this punishment?
00:17:03Even if he comes back in January, he's not going to run a horse in New York for another four months after that.
00:17:08Bill reported on this story.
00:17:09I'll let him expand on it.
00:17:11It's interesting, Joe.
00:17:12Finally, all this Baffert stuff is starting to wind down.
00:17:15There's very little left that hasn't been adjudicated or resolved.
00:17:18I believe it's Sunday.
00:17:20His 90-day suspension is up.
00:17:22Come Sunday morning, he can roll through the gates of Santa Anita and be back in business as usual,
00:17:27at least in Southern California.
00:17:29You hit on all the points of the news, but what I thought was interesting here was that
00:17:35Baffert's team obviously wanted to be given a full exoneration.
00:17:39You get nothing.
00:17:40Sorry, sir.
00:17:41This was terrible.
00:17:42We never should have suspended you.
00:17:44Go on with the rest of your life, and you can come back to Naira tomorrow.
00:17:48That was never going to happen.
00:17:49But what was interesting here, this was the closest Baffert came to any victory in any one of these.
00:17:55I mean, he's over the world in all these lawsuits, appeals, etc.
00:18:00So Peter Sherwood, the hearing officer, I mean, he went crazy on Baffert in his report.
00:18:08He said, Baffert is engaged in a pattern and practice of unlawful contact
00:18:13that is no parallel in modern history of Thoroughbred Racing.
00:18:16He continually used the word doping, even though really these were overages of therapeutic medications.
00:18:23That in and of itself is not really the exact same thing as doping.
00:18:27So I give the panel, the three people that were assembled to give the final verdict on this,
00:18:33I give them credit for not rubber stamping what the judge, the hearing officer wanted,
00:18:39and presumably what Naira wanted, too.
00:18:42They cut the suspension down from two years to one year.
00:18:45And so far as that thing he said about the worst pattern of unlawful conduct,
00:18:51they said there is scant support in the record for such a statement.
00:18:55So they fought outside the box.
00:18:58They didn't rubber stamp it.
00:19:00And again, it's all said and done.
00:19:03What did Baffert really miss in New York?
00:19:05A couple of things coming up.
00:19:07I mean, he probably would have had a horse maybe in the Travers and something else in Saratoga.
00:19:11But that wasn't really nearly the suspension with the kind of teeth that the Derby suspension,
00:19:16the Churchill Downs suspension has, which will keep him out of next year's Derby as well.
00:19:20But yeah, we're getting close.
00:19:23I think we can look forward to circle a date on the calendar as of maybe September 1st.
00:19:28Never have to talk about this again.
00:19:33John doesn't even want to talk about it now.
00:19:37I'm just beside myself.
00:19:38We've spoken about this at nauseam.
00:19:40I'm disappointed that he's going to have horses in the Haskell.
00:19:44But I am glad that we are able to kind of move forward
00:19:47and now just focus on the summer of racing as opposed to the summer of scandal.
00:19:52Like I said, the Law and Order segment that we have been doing for the past year or so,
00:19:58thanks to Bob Baffert and his lawyers, is hopefully long gone.
00:20:01Well, that was the only interesting thing about the story.
00:20:04We're not done yet because right around the corner, Jason Service's trial, baby.
00:20:09But that's juicy.
00:20:11That's going to be juicy.
00:20:13We don't want to say juicy.
00:20:15You're a juice man.
00:20:17No pun intended.
00:20:18But that's going to be exciting and scandalous, I think.
00:20:22The Bob Baffert legal stuff was boring as shit.
00:20:24And I hated going back and forth about it every single week.
00:20:27That was the only interesting thing about the story to me
00:20:29is that Bob Baffert's lawyers were still complaining.
00:20:31The three-member panel reduced by half the recommended suspension
00:20:36and they still were like, he's getting railroaded.
00:20:39They're just jealous of all Bob Baffert's success.
00:20:42Just shut up.
00:20:43Just take your medicine for once.
00:20:46But thankfully, we won't have to talk about them for a long time.
00:20:50But if I don't hear Craig Robertson's name again for ever, I'll be pleased.
00:20:58This segment of Trainers Behaving Badly brought to you by Wyatt Tarrant & Combs.
00:21:01Oh, we've got more Trainers Behaving Badly.
00:21:03Don't you worry.
00:21:05Right around the corner.
00:21:07The TDN Writers Room was brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association.
00:21:11Last weekend, 2021 Pennsylvania—I've been waiting for this news.
00:21:14I've been waiting for this note.
00:21:16Pennsylvania Breed Horse of the Year of 2021, Chubb Wagon,
00:21:19kicked off her 2022 season with a win in the Power by Far stakes at Parks.
00:21:24Last year, the daughter of Hay Chubb won six Pennsylvania Breed Stakes races.
00:21:28I think she's got a big, big year ahead of her now,
00:21:31especially now that Gamine is in her way.
00:21:33She can take her mantle as the top sprinter in the land.
00:21:36It was great, great to see her back.
00:21:38Pennsylvania Day at the Races is Monday, August 22nd.
00:21:41The card features a full day of PA Breed racing,
00:21:45$100,000 stakes races, and the first two 2-Year-Old Stallion Series races,
00:21:49which we've talked about before on this show.
00:21:51Registered 2022 PHBEA members can enjoy a free day at the races,
00:21:55including lunch, giveaways, and raffles.
00:21:57So definitely make plans to head to Parks on Monday, August 22nd.
00:22:00It'll be a great day.
00:22:02You'll get the whole racing landscape to yourself.
00:22:04Dark day for Saratoga.
00:22:06Parks is the place to be on August 22nd.
00:22:08And yeah, definitely nominate, if you still can, for those PA Breed, PA Sired stakes.
00:22:13A lot of money given away to Pennsylvania Breeds.
00:22:15PHBEA always doing great initiatives like that.
00:22:18We'll be right back after this message from the PHBEA.
00:22:21Go Chub Wagon!
00:22:23The PA Horse Breeders Association introduces the Pennsylvania Stallion Series.
00:22:28Four brand new races to be run at Parks for PA Sired, PA Breed 2-Year-Olds.
00:22:33There are two $100,000 contests on August 22nd, PA Day at the Races.
00:22:38September 24th, PA Derby Day, has two more races, each with a $200,000 purse.
00:22:44The PA Stallion Series.
00:22:46Yet another reason why Pennsylvania is the premier place to breed and race.
00:22:50For more, please visit pabred.com.
00:22:53The Green Group Guest of the Week is sponsored by The Green Group,
00:22:56an accounting, tax, consulting, and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:23:00With over 500 clients in the horse business, they have proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:23:04You can learn more about how they can help you at www.greenco.com.
00:23:09So we're thrilled to bring on this week, all the way from Hong Kong.
00:23:12He's an executive at the Hong Kong Jockey Club,
00:23:14but he's leaving to become the CEO of the Thoroughbred Owners of California, Bill Nader.
00:23:18Thanks for coming on.
00:23:20Great to be here.
00:23:21Great to talk to you.
00:23:22We appreciate you making time in the middle of a race card.
00:23:25Very well-dressed for the occasion, as you would assume.
00:23:27All right, so you're a guy and used to be the CEO of Naira.
00:23:30You're a guy who's accomplished enough in the industry that I feel like you could basically write your own ticket
00:23:35and get any job you wanted.
00:23:36So basically, why did you choose to come back to America to head the TOC?
00:23:40Well, Joe, I was coming back anyway.
00:23:43I had made the decision to leave at some point this year.
00:23:48I was going to stay through December so I could get in the Hong Kong international races,
00:23:52you know, the flagship day, the big event here, which I really love.
00:23:56But when word trickled around that I was going to head home, you know, in Hong Kong,
00:24:02we've been pretty much locked down for the last three years.
00:24:05So I haven't been back for three years.
00:24:07My family would come over to visit from time to time, but they haven't been able to do that.
00:24:11So I was ready to wrap it up and head home.
00:24:13And then this opportunity presented itself.
00:24:16And, you know, through the process of getting to know the board at the TOC,
00:24:21I became very comfortable with their commitment, their dedication.
00:24:27And the fact that they've, you know, soldiered on without a CEO for a number of months now
00:24:35and kept it warm for me, I think, is something that I really appreciate,
00:24:40because I know it's not easy for them.
00:24:42And the compromise was that I would start in October so Hong Kong can find people
00:24:49that kind of come in and fill the void and I can leave here.
00:24:52You know, I've had a good run over here.
00:24:54I love it over here.
00:24:55You know, in Hong Kong, if you're anybody in horse racing, the one thing about Hong Kong is,
00:25:04in many ways, like Saratoga or maybe a Del Mar, it's relevant every single day.
00:25:10And it's not just that it's relevant.
00:25:12It's a way of life.
00:25:13So leaving here is never easy, because if you love the sport, you have to love it here.
00:25:18It's just horrific.
00:25:19But, again, when the opportunity presented itself and I got to know the board a little bit,
00:25:24and not that I'm a California guy, I'm certainly not, but I'm very familiar with the, you know,
00:25:32the rich history of racing in California.
00:25:35And if you look at recent years, now with Flightline, who may be the world number one
00:25:41when the world rankings come out next month, or they'll be close to it,
00:25:45when you think of horses like Arrowgate, Senata, California Chrome, Best Pal,
00:25:51all the way back to Seabiscuit, it's a rich, rich, rich history.
00:25:56And you have some of the world's most beautiful racetracks, great weather.
00:26:00So there's so much to build on there.
00:26:02And I'm excited for the opportunity.
00:26:05Hey, Bill.
00:26:06Welcome.
00:26:07It's good to talk to you, especially with our Red Sox now flourishing and on their way up
00:26:10into the standings, and everything is great at Red Sox Nation.
00:26:13Bill is a native of the Granite State, New Hampshire, and a longtime Red Sox fan.
00:26:18Issues in California.
00:26:20Purses are not great, especially when you compare them to New York, Arkansas, Kentucky.
00:26:25The racing schedules, there's less and less racing all the time.
00:26:29Short fields.
00:26:30Are those some of the things you want to tackle?
00:26:32What's on your laundry list of things that, you know, you want to roll up your sleeves
00:26:36and say, hey, what can I do to make things better here?
00:26:40Well, you know, it's something I'm going to really take a deep dive into when I get there.
00:26:43But just scratching the surface, when you look at purse money in California,
00:26:48they don't have the advantage in California of alternative gaming, you know,
00:26:53secondary support to the purse structure.
00:26:56So I think they've done a fairly good job of maintaining purses
00:26:59and keeping it at a level that's respectable.
00:27:03But maybe sports wagering is on the horizon there.
00:27:07That's something we'll have to look at.
00:27:09I know they've been looking at it for the last several months.
00:27:13Maybe that can be something new to help the prize money, the purse money.
00:27:19As far as field sizes, I mean, that's something that doesn't play just California.
00:27:23That's, you know, across the country.
00:27:27But certainly bigger field sizes, potentially more grass races.
00:27:33I think the two things in racing, and this isn't California, it's not America,
00:27:39the two segments you really want to make sure you take care of are horse owners and horse players.
00:27:45If you get those two things right, then the foundation is solid in the whole industry
00:27:51and all the stakeholders that depend on racing can flourish if those two segments are strong.
00:27:56So we'll look at it and we'll take a real deep look into it.
00:28:00I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on California racing because there's a lot going on there.
00:28:04And I've taken a look at it since we've been talking to the TLC and learned a little bit more and more.
00:28:10But once I get there and hit the ground, I'm sure I'll pick it up pretty quickly.
00:28:16But it's a big portfolio of groups and a lot going on that makes it tip.
00:28:23But certainly, field sizes, like anywhere else, is probably one of the core issues.
00:28:33And trying to identify ways to find cost efficiencies, trying to identify areas you can make improvements,
00:28:43really improve the value proposition for owners, but also for the industry at large.
00:28:49I think if you can make things better, it's not just for one segment, it's for everybody.
00:28:54And I think that those are the things that we're going to need to look at.
00:28:59And in typical fashion, Bill Finley is looking at a glass half empty.
00:29:03Bill, I'm going to look at a glass half full.
00:29:05And that is, let's talk a little bit about California's improved safety record.
00:29:10I know that animal welfare is near and dear to your heart.
00:29:14Let's talk a little bit about what you see as far as California and how they've improved their safety record
00:29:19and what other things you're going to implement or suggest to try to make things safer in California.
00:29:24Well, absolutely unbelievable.
00:29:26What a turnaround. And people at Santa Anita should be applauded for that winter-spring season.
00:29:32I mean, that is an incredible achievement.
00:29:37You know, we'll look at everything and we'll try to look at what we do here
00:29:42and maybe best practices around the world and really roll up our sleeves.
00:29:47But I think we're walking in now to a good situation in California
00:29:53because that is an absolutely remarkable achievement, what they did there.
00:29:59And I, you know, I think that, you know, reading in the TDN the other day,
00:30:04what Dr. Parkin had to say from the Bristol Veterinary School about Lasix.
00:30:10And, you know, when you talk about sudden death, that now there's enough of the sample size to compare,
00:30:17which is that we're using Lasix and those that were not in the big decline in sudden death.
00:30:23So I think we'll take a look at everything.
00:30:27But I think that the nucleus is already in place there because what they've achieved in really in 2022,
00:30:36there's nothing short of remarkable.
00:30:38I wanted to broaden the conversation out a little bit because, as you talked about before,
00:30:42Hong Kong is an incredibly successful racing jurisdiction.
00:30:45And you've had a big part in that.
00:30:47I read that when you first started in 2006, Hong Kong handle was $60 billion.
00:30:52Last year was $133 billion.
00:30:55So basically, how did you guys do it?
00:30:57And what lessons, if any, can be drawn from that for increasing handle in American racing?
00:31:03Well, I think it comes down, Joe, to quality control, number one.
00:31:06I mean, you want to have what I had said earlier, keep horse owners happy and keep horse players happy.
00:31:12Then you're on your way. Here we've made tremendous investment in increasing prize money,
00:31:19along with the increase in handle, which has helped to drive that.
00:31:23But one of the things here that's probably unique to Hong Kong is, and this predates me, so I take no credit for this.
00:31:32The illegal market was quite strong and the Chucky Club instituted a rebate strategy for big customers that bet into the Hong Kong pools here in Hong Kong.
00:31:42As long as you're a Hong Kong resident and have a Hong Kong bank account,
00:31:46if you were to make a bet of $10,000 or more in Hong Kong dollars per race on a win place, Quinella or Quinella place bet.
00:31:55And if it was a losing bet only, not a winning bet, but a losing bet only, you're entitled to a 10 or 12% rebate.
00:32:02And that helped drive money back from the legal market to bet responsibly through Hong Kong.
00:32:07And that's important for all of Hong Kong, because Hong Kong Chucky Club is the biggest single taxpayer in Hong Kong.
00:32:15So biggest employer, biggest taxpayer. And it helps keep the tax rate low in Hong Kong.
00:32:22So channeling that money responsibly through the club not only gives back to the community and keeping the tax rate low,
00:32:30but it also helps in that Hong Kong Chucky Club is one of the top 10 charity donors in the world.
00:32:36So as you look around Hong Kong at education, hospitals, arts,
00:32:42you can see the incredible mark that Hong Kong Chucky Club has on society here in the community.
00:32:52But I mean, that was one thing. You know, we talked about prize money, field size.
00:32:56When you look at the fundamentals of what makes a good horse racing is in the sporting and wagering entertainment business.
00:33:05And when you look at really what makes it attractive to the horse player,
00:33:10and this is really where it all comes down when you know you have that engine cranked up and you're really moving along at 100%,
00:33:17is you want to have good field sizes, quality racing, great liquidity, and then you want to have integrity.
00:33:25And with the integrity, you know, we have our own racing lab right at Sha Tin, one of the world's best racing labs.
00:33:32Our stipend stewards, our racing stewards are very good and they're vigilant in protecting not only the integrity of the sport, but the integrity of the wager.
00:33:44So and there's also a vertical integration here within the Chucky Club framework and the structure where everything is under our roof.
00:33:53So there's no outside interference.
00:33:56I mean, we not only put on the racing, but the government has no say really in anything we do in terms of regulation.
00:34:04They trust it all to the Chucky Club. We make application, of course, for our race dates and what races we will bring in for simulcast.
00:34:13And I'll do that with Home Affairs. But we have a very good working relationship on that level.
00:34:19Everything else they leave to us in terms of regulating the sport. So we're not only the operator, we're the regulator.
00:34:26We do our own food and beverage. We do our own tow. We do our own broadcasting.
00:34:31Everything is Chucky. There's no outside vendors and no freelancers coming in to help us in the conduct of putting on a race meeting.
00:34:39And we've got the people. I mean, the people who work here in the key positions are among the best in the world.
00:34:48And so everything structurally is in a great spot.
00:34:53So when we look at transitioning to California, I think there's going to be a lot of strengths to build on there, too.
00:35:03I can see it mainly through the quality of the racetracks, what they've done in safety.
00:35:11They've got some skilled players there, too. So we'll build on that, try to bring people together.
00:35:16And as always, anything you do to try to go forward, you've got to do it as a unit.
00:35:22So we'll try to build consensus, get people on the right page and try to find and identify areas that we can improve the sport, not only for the horse owners, but for the entire industry.
00:35:36Bill, I don't know if this is the case or not, but are there any parallels between how racing is run in Hong Kong and what we're getting towards the end of this week with the beginning of the Horse Racing Integrity and Safety Authority,
00:35:47Horse Racing Integrity and Safety Act, any lessons that the ASA people can look at Hong Kong as a template, say, hey, this is things they're doing right there.
00:35:59We want to be able to bring those practices to the US.
00:36:03Well, one of the things and I haven't really read a lot in TDN about what ICE has been doing, but I think, you know, international harmonization is a big thing.
00:36:12I would think that especially when it comes to the wagering component, I think it's great if the sport can agree on, you know, policies that would impact the outcome of the race with rules that are universal.
00:36:31But I think that some of the things here, like the lab here is just tremendous.
00:36:38We do screening of all horses the day of the race day.
00:36:44So literally right at the last minute, we have a screening to know if there's anything that we should be aware of.
00:36:51And then, of course, we do the post-race testing.
00:36:54We do a lot of competition testing.
00:36:55So a lot of those things are similar.
00:36:58I think the difference would be the pre-race testing here.
00:37:01But that's something where the Jockey Club probably has the resources to do that.
00:37:05I think in terms of things that we've talked about, even with California, I'm not sure that this can work, but there's a pharmacy on the race course here.
00:37:16So for a veterinarian to get any medication that he or she will administer on a horse, and we have our own veterinarians, no outside veterinarians, they have to get it from the pharmacy, Jockey Club pharmacy.
00:37:29So we're controlling everything as much as we can.
00:37:32I'm not sure how much of this can be duplicated, but not just Hong Kong.
00:37:38Really, you know, the different countries, everyone taking best practices and coming together.
00:37:45And maybe HISA can be a catalyst for that.
00:37:49But it would be good with HISA.
00:37:52I'm not sure if HISA is doing this, but to reach out beyond America and maybe look at, you know, other countries within the umbrella of the IFHA to really understand best practices.
00:38:03And maybe that could help with the policy setting.
00:38:06I think, you know, this is the last question for me, but I think that's something else that could be drawn from the Hong Kong Jockey Club and from some other racing jurisdictions around the world is marketing and how well the sport is marketed.
00:38:17Now, you mentioned that Hong Kong is big.
00:38:19You're basically centralized.
00:38:20The Hong Kong Jockey Club runs everything.
00:38:22So I assume that helps.
00:38:23But you also talked about doing charity work and promotion in that way.
00:38:27What are some of the things right now that racing is doing well, you think, in America and marketing wise?
00:38:32And what are some of the things that are not being done well and that can be done better?
00:38:38Well, I'm not really sure, Joe.
00:38:39I mean, I would have to come back and really see what's going on.
00:38:43You know, in marketing, the big days and the big events, certainly, you know, big events like the Kentucky Derby and the Breeders' Cup, you know, they're pretty much on cruise control.
00:38:54But here, the difference here, I think, is and this is the advantage of being relevant, is there's 88 race days a year and every day is important and every day gets super coverage in the media, which is something you don't see as much as you used to in the States.
00:39:12So, for example, tonight, it's a Tuesday night in Hong Kong.
00:39:16There's eight races and total wagering will be over 160 million US.
00:39:23So with that, you know, all of the newspapers in Hong Kong, circulation goes up on a race day.
00:39:32With that, I think what we tried to do here in the last decade or so is try to pull away from racing as a wagering activity and more as a sporting activity.
00:39:44And we've hooked up with World Horse Racing, along with Goodwood, Ascot, Breeders' Cup and the VRC, Victoria Racing Club, and tried to really position racing at the elite level as a sport and really get away from the wagering side, but build up, you know, the athletes, whether it be horses, jockeys, trainers, whoever it might be, even grooms, to tell the story of what makes racing so great.
00:40:13Without the angle of wagering.
00:40:16Here, look, we do a lot of different things.
00:40:20You know, there are many big race days.
00:40:24You know, one of the things I guess is always debated now is how much do you bundle up to have a big day?
00:40:33Bill just wrote about it, I think, the other day about Belmont Stakes Day.
00:40:38Do you need that many races?
00:40:40Now, in Japan, they would never have more than one Group 1 race on any race day.
00:40:45They'll have 12 races, but never have more than a Group 1.
00:40:48That's the Japanese way.
00:40:50Here, we'll have four Group 1 races on Hong Kong International Race Day and three Group 1s on Champions Day, but that's as far as we go.
00:40:59Otherwise, there's really just one or two main events.
00:41:03Things like Ladies' Day, Gentlemen's Bowtie Day, these are big days that we've been able to put together to get more into fashion, lifestyle, and really make sure that we can capture everybody.
00:41:17Happy Wednesday, you know, before COVID was such a happening event here on a Wednesday night where Happy Valley Racecourse owned Wednesday night in Hong Kong.
00:41:29It's not doing it the way they do it in England and have music after the races, which we don't like.
00:41:35We like the idea of taking that short window of eight minutes before the horses really get in the parade ring and take that time so the race goes official before the horses really assemble in the paddock.
00:41:50Take that eight minutes, have live music, and have a vibe and an atmosphere where casual people who really may not even be interested in horse racing will get interested only because the environment is so contagious.
00:42:03You're right on top of it at Happy Valley.
00:42:05You're right on top of the action, so you can't help but get drawn in.
00:42:09That's brought in an entirely different crowd, something we can't do at Sha Tin, but we can do at Happy Valley because of the location.
00:42:16I think the main thing is everybody to kind of think a little bit out of the box, but also don't forget the main audience along the way and try to find that balance because you're not going to grow unless you reach out and bring more people in.
00:42:32That also has to do with owners.
00:42:34I mean, we're careful about that.
00:42:36We have a very unique setup here where there's only so many permits that are awarded each year.
00:42:43A permit means you have a right to bring in a horse, and there might be 400 a year, but we'll have nearly 1,000 applications.
00:42:52We're looking to make sure that we don't take that for granted and we make sure that the next generation is coming in and showing interest in horse ownership.
00:43:01We do everything we can to bring them along and educate them and hold their hand along the way.
00:43:07I think there's no magic in it.
00:43:11I think it's hard in the States to say, how do we really market a weekday of racing?
00:43:18Obviously, gravitate to the big days, but it's something that really, again, best practices.
00:43:27Open your eyes.
00:43:28It's not a domestic game anymore.
00:43:29It's a global game.
00:43:30It's a global sport.
00:43:32Take a look at something that might be happening in Australia or Hong Kong or Japan or Europe and see if maybe there's something that triggers a thought that might work in the United States of America.
00:43:44I think everybody needs to keep an open mind to it and try to find the right medicine that might work.
00:43:51Well, Bill, congratulations on an incredible job at Hong Kong all these years.
00:43:55America's racing can only be better.
00:43:57Bringing you back.
00:43:58Thanks for joining us, Bill.
00:43:59We appreciate the time.
00:44:01Thanks very much.
00:44:03The Green Group Guest of the Week is sponsored by The Green Group, an accounting, tax, consulting, and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:44:10As this week's Green Group Guest of the Week, Bill Nader, will receive a free one-hour tax consultation.
00:44:15Learn more at GreenCo.com.
00:44:17We'll be right back with this message from The Green Group.
00:44:20Why do the most successful owners, breeders, and horsemen select The Green Group as their tax advisor?
00:44:25We simply save them money and know how to make them more successful.
00:44:28Over the past 40 years, founder Leonard Green has owned and bred some of the best racehorses in the history of the sport.
00:44:33His in-depth, hands-on industry knowledge combined with cutting-edge tax-saving strategies has produced positive results for his clientele and has made The Green Group the top-rated accounting and tax firm in the business.
00:44:43For a confidential and complimentary consultation, contact us at 732-634-5100 or visit our website at www.greenco.com.
00:44:53The Green Group, proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:45:03The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by XBTV.
00:45:29This week's XBTV Workout of the Week features Smooth Like Straight.
00:45:32You're seeing right now, if you're watching the video portion, worked four-for-longs in 48-4 last week at Santa Anita.
00:45:38A Michael McCarthy trainee was third in this year's Grade 1 Maker's Mark mile stakes and second in his last start in the Grade 1 Shoemaker mile.
00:45:46This was his first work back since that start.
00:45:48Very admirable.
00:45:50You know, I think he's five now, getting a little up there.
00:45:52But hard-knocking turf horse, Turf Miler, shows up every time.
00:45:56I don't think he's ever run out of the money, or at least he hasn't since his first couple of starts.
00:46:00Maybe at the Breeders' Cup he did.
00:46:01Either way, he shows up basically every single time and runs first, second, or third.
00:46:05Big check collector for the Michael McCarthy barn.
00:46:08Admirable horse.
00:46:09And also, we got Saratoga right around the corner.
00:46:11We're less than three weeks away now from Saratoga, if you can believe that.
00:46:15If you want to see all those works at the Oklahoma track, all those babies starting to get going for Saratoga, go to xbtv.com.
00:46:22Just type in the search bar.
00:46:23You can definitely find most of those horses, most of those babies, most of those stars that are pointing towards Saratoga.
00:46:28We cannot wait for that Saratoga meet just a couple weeks away.
00:46:31As we teased in the last segment, it wouldn't be a Writer's Room without a Trainers Behaving Badly segment.
00:46:36And we're just going to talk about this real quick.
00:46:38But there was just a little bit of follow-up from the whole fallout with Peter Miller and Ruben Alvarado program training for Peter Miller over the winter at San Luis Rey.
00:46:47We talked about how ridiculous it was that Peter Miller only got a seven-day suspension by the Santa Anita Stewards.
00:46:52They get a $10,000 fine.
00:46:54This week, Ruben Alvarado was suspended 14 days.
00:46:58And also Peter Miller got another fine, a fine on top of that, which was a separate incidence for disorderly conduct because he apparently was cursing out one of the vets at San Luis Rey who didn't want to take his horse off of the vets list, which is a very classy thing to do.
00:47:13You know, just curse out the vet who's trying to protect the horse.
00:47:16You know, it's just one of those things where what does this suspension do?
00:47:20Like, what does the Ruben Alvarado suspension do?
00:47:23He's 14 days at Los Alamitos when they're not really running horses anyway.
00:47:27And presumably he's going to go right back to assisting Peter Miller, who's I think kind of now at this point a proven toxic person and a danger to horses based on his drug and his breakdown record.
00:47:38And the two of them will make hundreds of thousands of dollars this summer at Del Mar with the help of people like Gary Barber and Rockingham Ranch and whoever else funds Peter Miller's endeavors.
00:47:48And the wheels on the bus will continue to go round and round.
00:47:51And I have no idea if Haiza or any kind of enforcement is going to do anything about this kind of shit.
00:47:56But, you know, if you can't if you can't get these kind of guys out of here, what really is the purpose of having, you know, any kind of uniform program?
00:48:05Because this is this is gross to me that Peter Miller and Ruben Alvarado did this, you know, basically deceive the betting public over months at a time.
00:48:14And it's just going to be business as usual for them this summer at Del Mar.
00:48:16Am I wrong, guys? Well, no.
00:48:19And I'll just say what I said when the Miller suspension came out.
00:48:22You know, I don't know what the right number is for these guys.
00:48:25But for Ruben Alvarado, it's not 14 days.
00:48:28I mean, start talking about a year or something like that.
00:48:30And then, you know, I think the punishment will fit the crime.
00:48:33And, Joe, I think you've mentioned we're talking about Miller.
00:48:36And I'll repeat that is that, you know, what what incentive does this get?
00:48:40Give these guys to behave when you know that you do something fairly egregious here and you get a slap on the wrist.
00:48:46You know, where is the deterrent? You know, I'll just leave it at that.
00:48:50You know, I'm not going to go into Peter Miller's whole record and his history and everything.
00:48:53But, you know, and the California Board surprised me because I think usually they're pretty they can be fairly tough.
00:48:59I mean, not always, but they can be.
00:49:01I don't know how they came up with just 14 days for these guys.
00:49:04That that is a slap in the face to, you know, the better is more so than anybody else.
00:49:08You know, look, I mean, probably, you know, probably the better is raw.
00:49:11We know Miller's really training behind the scenes.
00:49:13But nonetheless, you know, you're telling the betters that Ruben Alvarado is a trainer of these horses and he wasn't.
00:49:19It was Peter Miller. You know, that's pretty serious stuff.
00:49:22So, you know, 14 days. I'll just say he should have been suspended.
00:49:26Both of them should have been suspended at least a year.
00:49:29And, you know, when you look up the term classless trainer in the dictionary, you see Peter Miller's face.
00:49:35And that's actually a really tough call because there's a lot of trainers that could be the poster child for classless trainers.
00:49:41But here's a guy who time and time again has been verbally abusive, not only to vets, but to other trainers, to officials.
00:49:49I remember correctly, guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't.
00:49:52Wasn't there a horse that he that he campaigned in a number of Breeders' Cup races?
00:49:55And then he got into a fight with the owner because one of them wanted him to continue to campaign the horse and the other one.
00:50:00And the other one didn't. And there was, you know, like public verbal, you know, barrages going back and forth.
00:50:07Was that Stormy Liberal was the horse?
00:50:10Right, right. All the horse did was make seven figures for everyone involved and kind of got in the middle of all this kind of public nonsense.
00:50:18But, you know, you just you look at a guy like that and and you say, why?
00:50:23Why are we allowing to continue to have people like that represent our sport or be involved in the industry?
00:50:30When you know that they just can't help themselves, that they're going to do the wrong thing?
00:50:34And look, I know like Charles Barkley was famous about saying, I'm an athlete, I'm not a role model.
00:50:39And certainly we shouldn't be having our children look at a lot of these trainers and say, that's what I want you to be like,
00:50:45because they're just not it's not a good fit for a lot of people.
00:50:48There are a lot of great trainers, don't get me wrong, and they're quality people.
00:50:51But in this case, that's he's not one of them.
00:50:54Peter Miller has shown time and time again that he's just not a good guy.
00:50:58And I'm sure that I'll get confronted by him, you know, the next time I see him at a sale or anything like that.
00:51:03And that'll just play right into it.
00:51:04But but the bottom line is, like, is it that we have a toothless system where 14 days is the max that we can give somebody like that?
00:51:12I honestly don't know, because, as we just alluded to in the backward segment,
00:51:17somebody can do something egregiously wrong against the system and can continue to get a plea down and get time served,
00:51:25you know, as as we get the hearings, you know, going further and further down the chain.
00:51:30So I'm really hoping and maybe maybe I'm just being Pollyanna,
00:51:34but I'm really hoping that that HISA is going to continue to rectify our industry in the long run,
00:51:40because in the short run, it's a it's a it's a cluster crap right now.
00:51:43You know, as far as what's going on on the on the edge of of having HISA be implemented on in a couple of days.
00:51:50But, man, I would love to see again, I'm not an attorney.
00:51:52I would love to see, though, just how much how many days or the extent of the fines and suspensions that can be given for a situation like this,
00:52:02because this is not a one off. This is not a one off.
00:52:05And I think if I remember correctly, the reason why the guy didn't get Peter Miller didn't get a harsher penalty prior to this is because he, quote unquote,
00:52:13retired for six months. Obviously, his retirement didn't didn't relax him at all.
00:52:18Yeah, right. Yeah. Just did not enough time to pursue his his personal well-being and his mental health or whatever the fuck he said that got that let him,
00:52:29you know, skate for six months and then come while he was training, train for six months, you know, in secret for Ruben Alvarado and then come back and serve seven days
00:52:38and just have everything be back to normal for this summer and this fall.
00:52:42But, yeah, like that's the point, John, is he's representing our industry.
00:52:45He is a top trainer. He's a top five trainer in California.
00:52:48He's not a nobody. He's a guy that is a high profile trainer.
00:52:51Like you said, is trained Breeders' Cup winners, is trained champions.
00:52:54And he just has proven time and time again he is not the kind of person that should be one of the standard bearers for horse racing.
00:53:01And I don't know how people in racing and especially his owners reconcile that.
00:53:06I get that he wins a lot of races for you.
00:53:08But, you know, over and over again, he's proven that he's he's incapable of, you know, honestly and forthrightly and, you know, being a classy representative of the sport.
00:53:18He just he doesn't do it. And he's like I said, forgetting even the drug in the breakdown record.
00:53:23He's dangerous to horses. Just his his personal behavior, you know, cursing out a bet.
00:53:29And there's been a bunch of stuff like that with him in the past.
00:53:32Why is he one of the top representatives of our sport?
00:53:35And why is you know, why don't we have the wherewithal to get guys like that out of here?
00:53:39What would racing be that worse off if Peter Miller were replaced by some honest trainer in the standings?
00:53:45No, I think it would be much better. But, you know, there's just either no appetite or no wherewithal, like I said, to go after guys like this.
00:53:52Unfortunately, I promise I promise after this commercial, we're going to talk about racing again.
00:53:57It's not just going to be us bitching and moaning about trainers that we don't think are representing the sport.
00:54:02Well, we got some racing to talk about. It's a big racing weekend.
00:54:05Stephen Foster got a couple of races at Belmont. So that's coming up after this break.
00:54:09But in the meantime, the TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds.
00:54:12Earlier this month, West Point's Stone Silent was the first two-year-old winner this year for West Point with an exciting debut victory in the Basic Tipton debutant stakes.
00:54:20This year's group of West Point two-year-olds includes 39 Colts and 23 Phillies.
00:54:25Thirty nine. That's 62 two-year-olds. We saw them buying up big at the Keeneland September sale.
00:54:31We saw them at the two-year-old sales, obviously.
00:54:33So tons of action coming this summer for West Point with the babies.
00:54:36And the countdown is on right now for West Point's 1,000th win.
00:54:39Right now, they're at 993. They have several entries in for this weekend.
00:54:44So best of luck to the West Point partners this weekend and the rest of the summer.
00:54:48Really looking forward to seeing all those babies on the track.
00:54:50Saratoga and maybe a little bit of Delaware.
00:54:52So we'll be right back after this message from West Point Thoroughbreds.
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00:55:27Being a small family business, I guess we're part of a dying breed.
00:55:30We're really grateful for the people that entrust us.
00:55:33We know it's a huge responsibility.
00:55:35We're always with your horse, every step of the way.
00:55:39When it comes to being at the sales ground, showing your horses, we are with your horse.
00:55:43Just driving up and down the road every day,
00:55:45there's not a time that I don't look out and feel a responsibility to the sport, the animal,
00:55:49the people that come to invest in the game.
00:55:51I want to see as many people enjoy this sport as they possibly can
00:55:54because we do have the most beautiful sport in the world.
00:55:59The TDN Riders Room is brought to you by Legacy Bloodstock.
00:56:01If you think that 50 years combined experience in the horse business can benefit your program,
00:56:05give Tommy or Wendy a call.
00:56:07They personally advise on each horse as if they were their own.
00:56:10Last week, Legacy Bloodstock reached $140 million in sales grad earnings.
00:56:15That's a pretty damn big number for a small shop,
00:56:18so congratulations to Tommy and Wendy and all of their sales grads.
00:56:21Entry deadline for the Fasig-Tipton October sale is July 15th.
00:56:24Legacy has exceeded the sales average at 11 past Fasig-Tipton October sales.
00:56:30Also, obviously, the Fasig-Tipton July sale is right around the corner.
00:56:32We're getting into yearling sales season, so definitely hit up Tommy or Wendy.
00:56:35We will do right by your horse.
00:56:37Best of luck to you guys coming up this summer.
00:56:41We promised a little bit of racing talk.
00:56:43I'm a man of my word.
00:56:44We took a little while to get to it,
00:56:46but this is kind of the last big weekend before Saratoga comes up.
00:56:51Actually, no, that's not true.
00:56:52Don't we have the Belmont turf races the weekend after?
00:56:55Yeah, so we actually have some good action the next two weekends.
00:56:59But this weekend, we have the Stephen Foster Card on Saturday at Churchill.
00:57:02This is closing weekend at Churchill Downs.
00:57:04It runs through July 4th, which is Monday.
00:57:06And then we also have the John Nehru and a couple of stakes at Belmont.
00:57:10That's interesting because it's going to be a matchup of life is good against Speaker's Corner.
00:57:14Other than Flightline, I think those are the two best one-turn horses in America right now.
00:57:20So it's going to be interesting to see those two clash.
00:57:22And we have a good field in the Stephen Foster.
00:57:24It's honestly a pretty star-studded field.
00:57:26Now, it's no longer a grade one.
00:57:28It used to be a grade one for a long time.
00:57:30It's a grade two now.
00:57:31We've got Olympiad, who's my boy, obviously, facing off with Mandaloon.
00:57:35And American Revolution is supposed to be in there as well,
00:57:38who I think we haven't seen since last year.
00:57:39But he was an up-and-coming, very, very nice horse for Todd Pletcher and Windstar.
00:57:43So that's what I'm looking forward to.
00:57:45We got the Stephen Foster Card and the John Nehru.
00:57:48But also, one of the subplots of this weekend is they were supposed to have turf racing for this weekend at Churchill Downs.
00:57:55If you know that, Churchill has had problems with this turf course.
00:57:58It's an all-new turf course for this year.
00:58:00They've had issues where they haven't been able to run on it for the last couple weeks.
00:58:03They were supposed to be able to run on it for this weekend.
00:58:06They had the grade two Wise Dan scheduled for the turf.
00:58:09That race has been canceled.
00:58:10And the other turf stakes for the weekend are going to have been moved to the main track.
00:58:14So that's an ongoing subplot, whether or not this Churchill Downs turf course is ever going to be ready.
00:58:19That, to me, is something to watch, I think, for the fall meet.
00:58:23I assume it's going to be ready by then.
00:58:25They spent a lot of money on this turf course.
00:58:27If they don't get it right by then, we might have to rip the whole thing up.
00:58:30That's my thoughts.
00:58:31What are you guys looking forward to this weekend?
00:58:33I mean, life is good.
00:58:34And, Joe, you know, we forget, after he just thrashed Nick's go in the Pegasus, we were talking about him like we kind of talk about Fightline now.
00:58:42He stubbed his toe since then, running fourth in the Dubai World Cup.
00:58:45You know, maybe the trip over there got to him.
00:58:47Maybe the mile and a quarter was a little bit beyond his range.
00:58:50But, you know, if he comes back, beats Speaker's Corner, and looks like the life is good that, you know, was just sensational in that race back in January at Gulfstream.
00:59:02You know, by the way, here we go again.
00:59:03You know, we're getting into July, and he's making his third start of the year.
00:59:08You know, and in what is, by modern standards, pretty full campaign, actually.
00:59:14That's what I'm looking forward to.
00:59:15And, you know, and you're not going to have him go against a bunch of tomato cans because you do have Speaker's Corner in there.
00:59:21So, you know, it's going to be he's going to be tested.
00:59:24I'm really looking forward to see what he does.
00:59:26I guess the Whitney would be next.
00:59:28But this is going to be, you know, a race to see where he comes back.
00:59:31You know, it's a shame with the Churchill Turf Course, but they had to take the wise Dan.
00:59:35They couldn't move it to the dirt because it's the same race as Stephen Foster.
00:59:38Right.
00:59:39The exact same races.
00:59:40But run.
00:59:41So they did take the other turf races and move them to the dirt.
00:59:43But you can see why they weren't able to run the wise Dan.
00:59:47But what would you consider your definition of a tomato can would be in a race like this?
00:59:57A not very good horse.
00:59:58What kind of question?
01:00:01It's called a leading question.
01:00:02It's a leading question.
01:00:04And it's because, you know, there's there's three other horses that are proposed to be in the race.
01:00:08One was a forty thousand dollar claim or one to two other than.
01:00:11And one's a horse that you're right.
01:00:13St.
01:00:14Louis, God bless him, is bringing in because he always has a horse running in these races because he actually does, you know, fill the fourth or fifth spot in the majority races.
01:00:21And every now and then he does jump up and win one.
01:00:24So I would say that the majority of horses in the in the Nehru are tomato cans in accordance with what you were saying.
01:00:30But the match race is really, you know, if you take those out, it's your speaker's corner against life.
01:00:35It's good, which is awesome, which is going to be really.
01:00:37So what you're telling me is they're not going to have an 11 horse field.
01:00:39I'm not going to look.
01:00:40We're all great at stakes horse.
01:00:41And the majority of them are going to be tomato cans to use.
01:00:44Yeah.
01:00:45Which would be a great name for a horse if we hadn't just tainted it by by saying how that really is bad.
01:00:50The Stephen Foster looks like it's going to be a great race.
01:00:52You guys have already gone through that.
01:00:53But lest we forget, lest we forget the baby races that are being run at Churchill Downs, not on the turf, obviously.
01:01:01But we have, you know, the debutante stake with our horse Wonder Wheel.
01:01:05And most importantly, and we'll finish on this.
01:01:07Most importantly, we have standard good side.
01:01:10Yes.
01:01:11Our our favorite horse here, other than writer's room, standard good side will be running in the bashful manner.
01:01:17And I have it on very, very good information that superfan Skip Anderson is actually going to be flying in and making a debut and an appearance to represent us in those stake races.
01:01:30So skip where you're lucky underwear, because if you don't win one of these two races, you're never allowed to come back, buddy.
01:01:36But we look forward to seeing you there.
01:01:38And also superfan Stephanie said that she was actually going to try to get there as well.
01:01:41So we are going to be well represented, well represented for the bashful manner.
01:01:45And hopefully, though, we'll see their smiling faces in the winner's circle picture.
01:01:48Oh, yeah. Yeah. Skip hit me up and said that he would be there this weekend.
01:01:52Yeah. Shout out to Skip and Steph. And yes, hopefully Skip is a good luck charm, because I don't think he's gonna be at Saratoga this summer because of this.
01:01:59So so have fun skipping. Best of luck to stay on our good side.
01:02:02And John mentioned her. And I just I don't want to wrap before we say that writer's room, I thought, had an encouraging debut.
01:02:10I thought she, you know, she dropped back early and she was lagging towards the back of the field.
01:02:13I don't know if we have the video, but we can show of her her flying down the track to have the have the most consequential electric fourth place finish in racing history.
01:02:22I think I don't think that's hyperbole, frankly. But no, she she finished up well.
01:02:26She just missed second. She like a couple of jumps away from getting up for second.
01:02:29She completed the super. She was fourth going to be interesting to see.
01:02:32I think she'll stretch out next. John was saying it's Saratoga this summer.
01:02:35So hopefully maybe there'll be a New York bred to turn Saratoga made in special weight on the turf for when I'm there.
01:02:42July, July 16th, July 16th is going to be New York bred and made special.
01:02:46No, there going on my own 16th on the turf.
01:02:49And that's that's where writer's room is going to hopefully make her next race.
01:02:53So so just like you mentioned, Joe, like like like our show together, like our chemistry together.
01:02:58It was clunky and a little, you know, a little nervous and not that great in the beginning.
01:03:03But, man, when we started getting it going, we came flying down the lane and and and looked like we're going to be a success.
01:03:09So writer's room is basically, you know, embodying our relationship between the three of us over the past two plus years.
01:03:17Yeah. Once we figured out how our legs worked, we really got cooking.
01:03:21Twenty three point oh five. And I will be there that Saturday at Saratoga, July 16th.
01:03:26So, yes, yes, please. Linda, do not scratch. Please run the horse.
01:03:30I know how you love to scratch. But yeah, I can't I can't wait to see her.
01:03:33And it was really, really exciting seeing her on Saturday.
01:03:36So thanks to everybody who sent good wishes and good luck and all that stuff.
01:03:40And we're we're looking forward to staying on our good side on Monday.
01:03:43Maybe, maybe if he wins the race, John will learn that the name of the race is the Bashford Manor.
01:03:49What do I call it? Bashful Manor for weeks now.
01:03:52We haven't corrected. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
01:03:55That makes more sense. That makes more sense.
01:03:57When you send you the trophy, you would stay on our good side wins.
01:04:00I don't want you to be surprised. Yes.
01:04:03I would send it back. I'd be like, no, it's the Bashful Manor.
01:04:06Obviously. Yes. It's where it's where all the seven dwarfs live in the Bashful Manor.
01:04:11Right. It's sleepy and dopey and doc and bashful.
01:04:14And, you know, that makes that makes much more sense. I'm sorry.
01:04:17I've been slandering the Bashford Manor for months and months and months.
01:04:21And I appreciate either you guys didn't want to correct me or didn't even care.
01:04:25Didn't even want to listen to me at this point.
01:04:29Exactly. A little known secret that when Joe Bianca actually watches the podcast,
01:04:33he actually fast forwards the only when he actually is talking.
01:04:36He doesn't listen to what Joe and Bill and I say, you know, and I don't blame him.
01:04:40I can't argue with that. But but that's a little known fact.
01:04:43I mean, I have to I have to hear you once, John.
01:04:45Why would I go back to the same day? Come on.
01:04:50Holy human. Before we get out of here, of course, we got this week's Remy cartoon.
01:04:56It's a UFO coming down with a horse saying, I'll make you a deal.
01:05:00I won't destroy your planet and you give me a season to Curlin.
01:05:04I don't know. Would Hill and Dale really give up that season to save the planet?
01:05:08Yeah, I mean, probably, probably would. I mean, that's how valuable Curlin is these days.
01:05:12He's just he's just an absolute monster. But, you know, yeah, shout out.
01:05:15Shout out to Remy. Not a bad deal. All right.
01:05:17So that's going to do it for this week's edition of the TDN Writer's Room presented by Kino.
01:05:20And this was fun, guys. I enjoyed this one. Kino September sale begins Monday, September 12th.
01:05:25You can learn more at the world's yearling sale dot com.
01:05:28I want to thank Bill Finley, John Green, our Green Group guest of the week, Bill Nader,
01:05:32our producer, Patty Wolf, our associate producer, Katie Petruniak, and our editors, Anthony LaRocca,
01:05:37Aaliyah LaRocca, Nathan Wilkinson. Thank you so much for watching.
01:05:40Have a happy fourth. We'll see you next week.