The Boston Sports Journal's Mike Giardi returns to the show to share what he heard from Patriots players and staffers after Jerod Mayo's firing. The guys also cover what they learned from Robert Kraft's press conference Monday, the latest on the team's coaching search and pursuit of Mike Vrabel.
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00:00So this is the last place I like to start with this particular guest, but there's there's
00:18no choice about it.
00:21I was wrong.
00:22He was right.
00:23It is Tuesday midday.
00:25First of all, that needs to be said, because news and nuggets and rumors and interviews,
00:30everything's flying around.
00:31We're here today back with Mike Giardi, the Boston Sports Journal, someone who, unlike
00:35yours truly, Saturday saying, I think they'll fire ABP will be the fall guy, Gerard Mayo
00:41will come back.
00:42And I was completely wrong.
00:43Mike was not only saying that the Crafts would fire Gerard Mayo, as he was less than two
00:47hours after Sunday's game, but that they should do it.
00:51And here's why.
00:52Since then, he has beaten me again, dropping a story this morning with coachbook players
00:57calling out their former head coach, which we will get to later.
01:01But because of all of the news and the rumors and the nuggets and the interviews swirling
01:04around right now, again, it is 1212 on Tuesday afternoon.
01:07We are going to work backwards and start with the latest news concerning Mike Rabel, the
01:11odds on favor to become the head coach of the Patriots.
01:14Have I gotten anything wrong so far?
01:15It's been a habit as of late.
01:16I want to stop it.
01:17And I guess you're the guy I got to turn to.
01:19No, I think I think you nailed it.
01:21I thought you could have been a little bit more over the top with your praise of me.
01:24You know, there could have been a few more flowers.
01:26You know, why is the when's the beer delivery truck coming to my house?
01:30Like these are things that you got to think about here going forward.
01:33But but in the moment off the cuff as things are changing out, you know, it was a decent
01:38decent effort by you.
01:39Yeah, look, I think we're all overdue for a few beers given the state of this franchise
01:43and for the last five seasons.
01:45I had a I did my best not to come off as like, you know, whiny in the last episode, but it
01:50just OK, you correct me if I'm wrong here.
01:53The whole season was as disconnected and disorganized and dis put in positive things there that
02:01you could find.
02:02Like this was not about anything that we like about sports.
02:05And the losing was honestly the least troubling part of it.
02:09Yeah.
02:10You know, it's funny because I think there are the perception of the media sometimes
02:14is that like we're rooting for like misery and and being able to rip people.
02:18And we've witnessed a lot of bad football after, you know, I was fortunate enough, obviously,
02:23to be here for the entire run of success of Brady and Belichick.
02:26And so I know I'm sorry, but like so you expect eventually that, you know, that wasn't going
02:34to continue forever and you're eventually going to fall back into sort of a hole.
02:39I just don't think you thought it was going to happen like this and to be as rudderless
02:43and dysfunctional when, you know, you still have the same ownership group and you still
02:47have some of it, or at least you're trying to live by some of the tenants that helped
02:50you be successful for 20 years.
02:52Like it's hard to watch like they're there.
02:55I mean, I think there were multiple times this year where I might have texted you and
02:59others before the game being like, I mean, I know we're not digging ditches here, but
03:03I don't really want to go to this game because I know what I'm going to see is not going
03:08to be good.
03:09And then I'm gonna have to write again.
03:11This is this is bad.
03:12This is dysfunctional.
03:14I think we all got to the point where late in the year, especially it was like, man,
03:17I could just take last week's story, change some names and the opponent and the location
03:21and it's but it's the same thing.
03:23And so, yeah, it just it was a slog.
03:27It's been a slog for the last couple of years.
03:28Good news.
03:29Change is coming.
03:30Who knows if that is Mike Rable, as we expect, but as I said, we're going to work backwards
03:34today.
03:35OK, so right now, 12-14, as of this moment, this is what we know.
03:38Mike Rable, according to my guy, Doug Kide, broke this news.
03:42He will interview with the Bears tomorrow, according to our guy, shared guy, Mark Daniels,
03:46Matt Slyve.
03:47He will also interview with the Patriots this week.
03:49And our former guy, former Patriots field writer Nick Underhill, of the famed Swamp
03:55Ass story in the NFL in 2019, the greatest piece of journalism ever produced, how Tom
04:00Brady manages Swamp Ass when taking snaps from his centers, a little bit of extra butter
04:04on the fingers.
04:05That line always stuck with me.
04:06Reports that Rable is expected to interview with the Saints.
04:08So what that means is Mike Rable is going to interview with every single team with a
04:12head coaching vacancy since the Jaguars, who just released their list, but says, hey, Trent
04:16Baalke, the guy mostly responsible for this, he's going to stick around.
04:19So there you are.
04:21DeMarcus Covington, news just broke, according to Tom Pellicero, NFL Network, is going to
04:25interview for the Bengals defensive coordinator job, OK, and the Patriots have requested.
04:29I can confirm the one thing I've done correct in the last 48 hours, can't confirm they've
04:34requested an interview with Ben Johnson, everyone's favorite offensive coordinator, Lions maestro
04:39who's currently on a bye week that can happen as soon as Wednesday.
04:43No other known candidates.
04:44Now, let's get this out of the way first, because the question of who is starting to
04:49be answered, when is the next part?
04:51And here's the framework for this search per league rules.
04:55The Patriots cannot hire a head coach until they satisfy the NFL's Rooney rule.
04:59What does that mean?
05:01Two in-person interviews, two in-person interviews with minority and or female candidates.
05:07In-person interviews with coaches who are currently employed by the NFL, any team in
05:12the playoffs or not, cannot begin until January 20th.
05:16However, the Patriots can conduct an interview in person with Mike Vrabel if they wanted
05:21to, because, of course, he's not employed by an NFL team right now.
05:24They can also do this with guys in the college ranks.
05:26I don't know if they have any interest.
05:27Ron Rivera is walking around getting interviews.
05:28He would qualify.
05:29Otherwise, they're limited to virtual interviews this week with all coaches, again, currently
05:33employed.
05:34The general rule is, without getting into the playoff versus non-playoff, candidates
05:38got to wait three days until after their season ends to interview, except Ben Johnson, who
05:44can interview as soon as Wednesday.
05:47And Vrabel, as I said, is free to interview as soon as possible.
05:49So January 20th is a big deal, unless the Patriots get two in-person interviews with
05:54minority candidates who are not employed by the NFL, regardless of whether their teams
05:58are in the playoffs or not.
05:59Obviously, they're not in the playoffs, because they're not in the NFL.
06:02That's the timeline here, okay?
06:05What else have I not picked up from this Tuesday morning?
06:07Have you heard anything about Mike Vrabel as it stands right now?
06:11No.
06:12I mean, just reaffirming what I talked to people around the league yesterday, a half
06:18dozen front office execs from around the league, just sort of texting, no phone calls, just
06:21texting and being like, what do you hear?
06:23What do you know?
06:24And they were all like, Vrabel.
06:26And whether I pushed a little bit, is that inside information or whatnot?
06:30I think it's just the vibe around the league is that Mike Vrabel wants the Patriots and
06:34the Patriots want Mike Vrabel.
06:35So that's not earth shattering.
06:37I think a lot of people have sort of pointed the ship in that direction.
06:40But I just thought it was interesting that going around the league, being like, no, no,
06:44this is going to be this or this, or hey, watch out for this person.
06:47And most everyone felt like Vrabel is the clear front runner, and it would take something
06:52dramatic to move the Patriots off their spot.
06:55The other thing that I will say when talking about that, and I keep bringing this up, because
06:59I think it's just instructional of like, if you have an open mind, if you're the Crafts,
07:03and maybe you are saying to yourself, yeah, Mike's the guy we want, but you know, we didn't
07:07go through the process last year.
07:08We set ourselves back another year.
07:10Now we're back doing this again.
07:12And like, who knows how it will go with the roster and the coach and et cetera.
07:16So let's make sure we talk to six, eight, 10 people and sort of get a feel for what's
07:21around the league and put it in the back of our brain.
07:24Hey, remember that time we interviewed so-and-so and he was pretty awesome.
07:27And if we ever decide to move on from this guy, he might be someone we want to talk to.
07:32And I go back to the Steelers.
07:34When Bill Cowher was retiring, Ken Wisenhunt was the coach.
07:37Like it was everybody and his brother thought that was the thing that was going to happen.
07:41He had paid his dues.
07:43He had done a nice job.
07:44He was well-respected throughout the organization, but they went through the process and they
07:48brought in a guy by the name of Mike Tomlin and they interviewed Mike Tomlin.
07:52And when Mike Tomlin walked out of the room, they looked at each other and said, holy crap,
07:58that's the guy.
07:59And he's been their guy for what, 15, 16 years now.
08:02And you can argue, have they had enough success with some of the rosters he had early in his
08:06tenure there?
08:08Probably not.
08:09Then again, they had to go through Bill Belichick and Tom Brady in the AFC and that proved to
08:13be difficult for everybody, including Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy, et cetera.
08:17So I just think I'm hopeful, I'm not confident, but I'm hopeful that the crafts will at least
08:25go into this with an open mind and say, Larry, show me what you got.
08:29And if you've got something that blows us away, then we're not afraid to pivot.
08:34I agree with you.
08:35I feel like that's become kind of the default take of like, the crafts have to take the
08:39search seriously.
08:40They've got to do this.
08:41They've got to talk to a bunch of people.
08:42But I'm like, I agree, but yeah, you know, like this year they have to do a search.
08:48The reason they didn't last year is because they had put that clause into Mayo's contract
08:52saying you're the successor.
08:53Now to your point about, could this be a sham search, a la the Bill O'Brien hire before
08:58he was the offensive coordinator?
08:59Well, Bill is just not going to abide by league rules.
09:02He'll do so, doing the bare minimum whenever possible.
09:05He's going to do it his way.
09:06That's going to be his, to steal a phrase, North Star.
09:10Okay.
09:12Now, I think it not only behooves them, as you said, kind of keep guys on the list, be
09:17open to a surprise and pivot.
09:19Ultimately, Mike Rabel is not only the best head coach for the New England Patriots, in
09:22my opinion, because of the fit and his experience, he's the best head coaching candidate, period,
09:27in this cycle.
09:28Okay.
09:29It's not exclusive or unique to New England, but in the course of this process, you get
09:34to pick the brains of some of the best coaches in the league.
09:36And not just about who do you like, who do you hire?
09:40What do you think of our team?
09:41What are our blind spots?
09:42Like, what's your process for play calling?
09:44How do you incorporate analytics?
09:45Who are the other coaches that you lean on?
09:47What about some techniques that are new?
09:48Like, you got to pitch me, we're in an okay spot right now.
09:52Okay.
09:53Let us know.
09:54And then we'll steal that.
09:55Because all the best coaches are the best thieves.
09:57So I'm with you.
09:59The interesting part is though, Robert, as we now pivot, going back in time, Monday afternoon,
10:04spoke for like 15 minutes, solid press conference, answered a lot of questions, and this is not
10:08giving him flowers for this.
10:09Again, I've said they don't deserve credit for firing a guy who shouldn't have been there
10:13in the first place based on stuff we now know, which again, at the time I was wrong, called
10:16it a worthy gamble.
10:17This gamble busted completely.
10:20Says Stacey James, head of PR for the Patriots, we'll fill you in on all those candidates.
10:26We know one.
10:27Well, now two, thanks to our guy, Mark Daniels, I'm sure it will be confirmed elsewhere.
10:33That doesn't seem like they're interviewing as many people as they think can give them
10:38the best chance to win, which is what Kraft committed to doing on Monday.
10:43Right.
10:44Which makes you think like the six people that I texted around the league yesterday
10:47in front offices, that it's a foregone conclusion that it's going to be Mike and it would have
10:51to take something from a negotiation structure standpoint that would lead Mike to say, actually,
10:59you know what?
11:00I'm not taking the job for 5 million less than these people, or I'm not going to take
11:04you because you want to force this front office guy on me, or I don't want to have to report
11:08to this person or whatever.
11:10Those are the things that need to be ironed out.
11:12Although I suspect, as I'm sure you do, that many of these things have already been backchanneled
11:17and discussed.
11:18Like, hey, I would only do this if this, and I will do this if that.
11:22So look, for me, Rabel makes a lot of sense because you don't even have an erosion of
11:31culture.
11:32You don't have a culture right now.
11:33And I'm not, I still believe winning is the thing that gives you culture, but I think
11:37he gives you, he will set a standard, which they love to talk about over the last few
11:43years that hasn't existed, an expectation for the players, for the coaches of what needs
11:49to be done and what has to be done in order to get this.
11:53And if you're not willing to do it, then we will quickly pivot and find someone else.
11:57I think there will be a consistency in the messaging, not only with us, which again is
12:02a very small part of the, but with the team.
12:07And I think the messaging this year was not only a complete cluster when it came to Gerard
12:13at the podium, but I think it was a cluster when it came to what happened behind the scenes
12:17as well.
12:19There are a lot of pivots from one day to the next, sometimes in the same day that people
12:23are like, whoa, wait, what happened?
12:25I don't, didn't you just say, and now we're doing this.
12:29So I think from that perspective, if you want to get back to respectability quickly,
12:35Mike Vrabel is the perfect antidote or perfect solution to get you there.
12:40Well, and I've said this too, like he's a floor raiser, you know, like the simple stuff
12:44is not going to trip you up anymore.
12:46It doesn't mean it's going to vault you, you know, into the Superbowl all of a sudden.
12:50He's not a top five coach in league.
12:51I think it was generally around the top 10 when he was here.
12:54But the point is you don't get to be picky.
12:56Your basement keeps, they keep redefining the phrase rock bottom for themselves.
13:01And again, this is not too pylon.
13:02Yeah.
13:03The basement doesn't get flooded when it rains, they'll keep it dry, you know, and that's
13:10something that Bill struggled to do at the end.
13:13And it's obviously something that Gerard and his staff are incapable of this past season.
13:18Right.
13:19I think Vrabel has played this perfectly.
13:21I think his position when they're negotiating or already have negotiated is as strong as
13:26it could be.
13:27You need me.
13:28I'm the best coach in the market.
13:29I've got all of this interest.
13:31You've lost four of the last five seasons.
13:33You just fired back to back head coaches, the greatest of all time and your handpicked
13:36successor.
13:37This is complete embarrassment for you.
13:39I'm good enough.
13:40I'm the best fit.
13:41I'm the best guy.
13:42Give me what I want.
13:43Now, the interesting part about that is not the craft saying, oh, we pay him enough.
13:46That doesn't interest me.
13:47I think they will.
13:48Okay.
13:49And if they don't go on the record that they will.
13:50And that's another medium of step.
13:51And this is just completely beyond repair.
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15:38Where does he draw the line with Elliot Wolfe?
15:40And Wolfe's place in this came up in the press conference, not once, but twice.
15:45First, when I asked Robert, Hey, who's involved in the coaching search?
15:48Who do you want?
15:49He says, Elliot Wolfe, Lonzo Highsmith, and of course, Robert and Jonathan.
15:53Later, our guy, Tommy Curran, got a lot of guys on the show, a lot of references, asked,
15:59Hey, personal department, not so hot the last few years.
16:01What have they done to show you that things are actually turning around?
16:04Why do they get to stick around?
16:05So whether you want to start there or a different topic, or even just dry mayo, we haven't talked
16:12a whole lot about yet.
16:13That guy got fired.
16:14We're going to cover all of it, but what was the most interesting part of that press conference
16:18to you, Monday?
16:19So I am in the camp of I'm not at all concerned about Elliot's involvement going forward because
16:26I think, and I think Robert told you it, that the head coach is going to have a huge say
16:34on who he works with.
16:35And if that means Mike Vrabel comes in and he says, you know what?
16:39I'm cool to work with Elliot this year, but my guy, Ryan Cowden, who was his interim GM
16:45in Tennessee, he's coming too.
16:48And Ryan's going to, this is, this is Elliot's title and Ryan's title, but really I'm going
16:54to be answering to Ryan and Ryan's going to be overseeing Elliot and like, we're going
16:57to see how this all works or whether it's simply like, he's not a guy and you can keep
17:03him until the draft.
17:04And then once the draft is over, you do what's, we've seen it happen in the league all the
17:09time.
17:10Guys, contracts run through the draft and then they get blown out.
17:12So I know some, that makes some people, they get angst about that, but Mike doesn't have
17:19a full staff together.
17:20They haven't been, the staff hasn't been working fully on the draft together.
17:24So I don't know how you can expect to just blow Elliot out, bring someone in, hit the
17:29ground running and be ready for not only free agency and whatever it is, seven weeks, eight
17:34weeks, but also the draft in three and a half months.
17:36I think it's a, that's a tough timetable to gather.
17:40And I would add to like the idea of just knocking Elliot out, regardless of whatever you think
17:46about the last month, I'm not here to say you should feel encouraged about what he's
17:49done or give him more time or anything like this.
17:52It's not an either or, like I believe based on information I gathered and learning about
17:56who he is as a person, executive and long profile spoke to multiple current GMs on and
18:01off the record, ex GMs, his high school teachers, all of these different people who have worked
18:05with him in New England and other places.
18:07Oh, you're so thorough.
18:09But I do accept this one thing I did, right.
18:11It was the last day.
18:12Oh, stop.
18:13It's not you.
18:14You've done a fantastic job covering the team.
18:15I'm not just saying this because I'm on your podcast and I consider you a friend.
18:18You've done a, you've done a great job.
18:19You helped you push.
18:22Now you push me to do more.
18:25You push other people to do more.
18:26There's competition on the beat and I appreciate that.
18:29All right.
18:30I'm muting you.
18:31Um, no one's hearing you laughing.
18:33You just look like a psycho on YouTube.
18:35Let me finish this.
18:36So the idea that you need to knock out Elliot Wolfe in order to bring in Ryan Cowden, which
18:40I'm glad you said his name first because I was going to blow it.
18:43I think is, is a, it is false.
18:46Okay.
18:47He is someone is I was getting to before you rudely interrupted with this nonsense flowers
18:51is to say you're still muted.
18:52Don't keep making faces.
18:54That's fine.
18:55He is happiest when he is in a room scouting players, watching film, breaking this down.
19:01It doesn't mean he can't connect people or lead a front office, but that's what he's
19:07happiest doing.
19:08That's what he's known.
19:09That's why he got into the business.
19:10It's what he was.
19:11Father was so good at before he made the hall of fame as a general manager, evaluating talent.
19:15If he's content staying here as opposed to making a fourth move in the last 10 years
19:20with his family and be high up in a front office, understanding I'm in my early forties.
19:25If we rebuild, I'm the guy that drafted Drake may, and I can build a resume in the next
19:29couple of years to get more head coaching interviews because the respect around the
19:32league is there.
19:33And that's also something I will defer to more than my own opinion.
19:36That's doable.
19:37I don't know if he wants to do that, but between that and being put out on the street, I think
19:41he would say, look, I'll step down.
19:43I'll ease your transition.
19:44Let me stay.
19:45And I think that would be a good move for the Patriots.
19:47If Mike Brayboy now you can speak is allowed to make that call in a way that I think Mike
19:53could knowing his personality and again, his position in this negotiation, which is the
19:58thing that I think both parties are kind of navigating right now.
20:01Okay.
20:02Where can we find that middle ground?
20:03And if Rabel says, there's no middle ground, it's the way that I want it.
20:06I don't know that the crafts have much recourse.
20:09No, I would think that they wouldn't.
20:11They made a move.
20:12They have a vacancy as you elocuted.
20:14He's the best candidate for the job for any team at this point.
20:18So is that going to be the thing that you draw the line at and say, I'm, we're not going
20:23to move off of Elliot Wolf and we'll take the second best candidate or the third best
20:27candidate because we're, we're unwilling to do that, then you better be damn sure that
20:31Elliot Wolf is going to be in the hall of fame 20 years from now too.
20:34You know what I mean?
20:35Like that's, that just, that's a pretty bold proclamation to stick with a, with a personnel
20:40front office type over the guy that can really impact change on the football field on a day
20:45to day basis.
20:46And, and as I mentioned, build up your culture.
20:49I'm not, I'm not saying I, I, I'm not in the like, go, you gotta, you gotta burn it all
20:54to the ground.
20:55Like probably that's, what's going to end up happening is my feeling is that it will
20:59get reset, but it could be that the reset, the full reset beyond the coaching staff doesn't
21:05happen with the front office until next year.
21:08Right?
21:09Like, Hey, let's try this.
21:10And like I said, bring in my people to help sort of oversee all this stuff or be in different
21:14positions of power and you know, what's their feedback on these guys versus what's my feedback
21:18and can we work, do we want to work for work forward with these guys or do we want to just
21:22say, Nope, you, you, you, you're all with me in Tennessee or Cleveland or other places.
21:27I met you at a coach's meeting and we were best buddies and I want you in here cause
21:30I like your vision.
21:32Then that's real, really possible.
21:34I just look, they, they have, and this is another place where you can kind of sort of
21:39point the finger at the crafts where they hired the guy who was not, the job was way
21:44too big for him and not equipped to do the job.
21:47But also, and Bert's been, Bert Breer's been on this for a long time and I've definitely
21:52talked to people over the course of time, particularly in this last couple of years
21:56about the structure of the front office and they're just, they're behind the times on
22:02so many things.
22:03They, they don't have enough bodies up there.
22:05They don't have a proper system.
22:07They, you know, as, as has been pointed out, Elliot's now, Robert said it yesterday, they
22:11changed the scouting, the grading system, which they didn't even get to really put into
22:16full use last year.
22:18So they're, they're trying to transition, but that's, that's like the smallest, there's
22:23so many more things that need to be done.
22:25I look at other front offices that have had success for, you know, going on a long time
22:31now, Baltimore certainly being one where it's just like they built their own systems.
22:35They have so many checks and balances in place, guardrails, yet they also trust their football
22:41people to make the, well, you know what, he doesn't necessarily fit in this box that we
22:47normally fit, but we talked to this guy or we had an interview or he does something on
22:51the field that we just, we can't, you know what, we're going to, we're going to roll
22:55the dice on this one.
22:56Whereas you look at the Patriot situation, I'll bring up Javon Baker.
22:59And I think, I don't know if we've had this conversation on a podcast before.
23:03I know we probably had it in person, but they were at a point in their build where rolling
23:08the dice on someone like Javon Baker, who had been multiple college stops, a lot of
23:14red flags in his background, like nothing like horrible, horrible, but a lot of inconsistencies
23:19and stuff that you don't want.
23:21And you can point to, oh, it's immature and it's young, you know, the, the, the hangers
23:25on that he has all these different things.
23:27Well, let's put it like this.
23:28When he goes on Instagram live, the moment after he's drafted in the middle of a Saturday
23:32saying where the mother at, yeah, that was not a surprise to people who had studied his
23:37background.
23:38No.
23:39And then when it continued, like not to that extent, but it continued during the course
23:43of the season where truculent and moody and like, it's like you, you brought him into
23:49a room and into a, just into a locker room period, not just a wide receiver room, but
23:54a locker room period that wasn't equipped to handle him.
23:56You're not far enough along in your, in your build or your culture that you could plunk
24:01him in here and think that there's 50 guys in the locker room that are going to steer
24:05him in the right direction.
24:06No, there's a lot of different people pulling in a lot of different directions regardless.
24:10But then when you're losing on top of that and you bring in this sort of attitude, it
24:13just, what did you expect was going to happen?
24:15So I think those other places I bring up Baltimore, cause I just consistently have been for what
24:2220 years now are really one well-run organization beyond that, that they just seem to get it
24:28right.
24:29Not always, but they seem to get it right.
24:31And they seem sometimes when they do step out of their comfort zone for a player, it's
24:35cause they have a plan for the player.
24:37And oh, by the way, if the player doesn't fit and even just that acquisition, Deontay
24:41Johnson, right.
24:42Came in here, didn't like what was going on, made his opinions felt and they were like,
24:47could we still use him?
24:48Yeah, but screw him.
24:49Get out.
24:50We're not doing it.
24:51They're also not to do a Ravens thing, and we're going to come back to Ellie Wolfe and
24:55Alonzo Heisman because as Robert Kraft said, they're staying put.
24:58Okay.
24:59They're here.
25:00They're going to conduct the searches and sit in on those.
25:02I think that's wise given two guys who have combined five decades of experience in the
25:06NFL and are also just around, I don't know who else you would trust more within that
25:10team unless you feel comfortable at home, which is Robert and Jonathan Kraft, maybe
25:14with Robin Glazer doing those interviews.
25:16I don't.
25:17That's me personally.
25:18But to the point about the Ravens, they're also an organization on the cutting edge of
25:22sports science, of analytics, okay.
25:26And risk management.
25:28And you look at a player like you just mentioned, we're going to bring someone in, we're going
25:31to have a plan form and we're going to commit to that.
25:34Lamar Jackson.
25:35Okay.
25:36That was a wholesale pivot from the drop back passing game and Joe Flacco and that whole
25:41offense and they committed to it and they did the right thing and he goes on to win
25:44two MVPs and everything.
25:45No.
25:46So it's as much about having an identity as an organization, building out and committing
25:52to those resources and constantly adapting and upgrading in a way that this is on the
25:56Krafts the same way that Mayo's hiring was and the decay of the franchise post Brady,
26:01right.
26:02But it even goes back further than that.
26:03So there's a lot more work to be done, which I wrote about today.
26:05Hey, it's great.
26:06You fired drive bail.
26:07The job's not done.
26:08You need to stick the landing with Brable.
26:09Wolf will be in there.
26:10Highsmith will be in there.
26:11Well, we spent all this time talking about all this, the cap space and like, well, you
26:14know, will you, I know Bidart asked the question that was floating around yesterday about like
26:20if you spend money on the coaching staff and you have to buy out this coaching staff, is
26:23that going to impact what you spend on the roster?
26:25There's also a whole other part of this that we're not talking about where they're not
26:29spending their money in the front office.
26:31And I'm building these systems up and having more eyes and like, you don't just trust one
26:36guy.
26:37Give me four guys like build up a department there that gives you the idea that, again,
26:41we're we're sharing ideas.
26:43We're working on how to build things better.
26:46And we're having debate, healthy debate about what works, what doesn't work.
26:51And here's the evidence that I say it works.
26:53And here's your evidence that says it doesn't.
26:55What direction do we want to go?
26:56They haven't they haven't done nearly enough with that.
26:59And that's, again, just sort of something that gets sort of lost in the shuffle that
27:03it shouldn't be.
27:04Yeah.
27:05Diversity of ideas, in addition to the ability and interest in spending to do that.
27:08Now, I think the reason they may or may not have put the cheap conversation aside, that
27:13might be the whole conversation.
27:14I don't know.
27:15But for now, tabling.
27:17They won without that.
27:19They won doing it this way.
27:20And the guy powering that obviously is gone in Belichick in his last four years, twenty
27:24nine and thirty nine says all that you need to know.
27:26But they're going, why would we do more when we're doing more with less?
27:29Well, that guy's gone.
27:30So is the quarterback.
27:31Now it's all on you.
27:32And whatever happens next will be a total and accurate and fair reflection representation
27:36of who the craps have been, just as the last four years have been as they fall behind the
27:39times as a franchise.
27:40And that's on them.
27:41OK, so I know most of you still remember it's only been about five years.
27:45The Patriots playing playoff football, the best of the best going head to head.
27:49That's what January and February is all about.
27:51I don't know when the Patriots will be back.
27:52But I know if you want to make lifetime memories, whether it's the NFL playoffs or later on
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29:16Drive mail also is someone who they just kind of promote it from within.
29:19And Kraft says they're committed to talking outside Canada.
29:21We've heard these wonderful things about all these people.
29:24But when we look back at Gerrard and the decision to fire him, something that I did not come
29:31around to as a possibility in tools too late, Kraft says it was the last month.
29:35I've heard the same thing from one or two people who were close to them that like the
29:41line is as thin as this.
29:43Had the blowout losses at Arizona and against the Chargers not been that bad, Gerrard Mayo
29:48might still be the head coach.
29:50That's crazy to me as I continue to learn more things about what happened behind the
29:54scenes and how they got there.
29:55Because I always said losing is the symptom.
29:57Those losses started Monday through Saturday and the culture and the habits and yes, the
30:01talent, but also the coaching.
30:05They got here anyway.
30:07And I'm glad that they did.
30:09But what about the situation aside from what Robert said, the losing and regressing over
30:16the course of the season made it untenable because I think that was an appropriate word
30:19he used untenable.
30:20You saw it.
30:21I felt it.
30:23What were we seeing and feeling aside from the losing and the regression that said this
30:27can't continue anymore?
30:28So I wrote a story today that was posted today on Boston Sports Journal where I talked to
30:35a bunch of people behind the scenes and as always, you'd like these people to put their
30:40names on it.
30:41But I did offer them anonymity if they chose and a lot of people chose that.
30:46And I think what I found was a locker room that likes Gerard Mayo, thinks that he is
30:56a decent human being, thinks that he did what he could, but that he didn't have nearly enough
31:06of the things that you need a head coach to be able to do from an X's and O's standpoint,
31:12from an organizational standpoint, and even from a leadership standpoint that would allow
31:17them to be successful.
31:19And one of the most damning things that I put it right at the beginning of after the
31:23first graph, you know, I was talking to a veteran, a player who's been around and seen
31:27a lot.
31:28And I said, you know, he said, I quote, I lost faith we were headed in the right direction.
31:34Simple response.
31:35When?
31:36In the spring.
31:38So, you know, already I'm like, oh, wow, like you knew that, like, even I wasn't willing
31:44to judge that that early, right?
31:46Like, but these guys have been around and seen different things and what works, what
31:51doesn't work.
31:52And then I said, OK, well, why?
31:55And the quote was felt like he, they were making it up as they went along.
31:59It was amazing how one day it would be this and then the next something completely different,
32:04which I was sort of referencing before, where as part of the the messaging and even part
32:09of the planning at times was so inconsistent that look, I think there's a lot of people
32:16in the room or a lot of veteran people in the room that knew they weren't a talented
32:21football team, but there are ways that we could be better and their coaching staff is
32:26not helping us be better.
32:29And then, of course, as it starts to devolve and you're losing five in a row or whatever
32:36at the beginning of the season, six in a row, it's like now the the immaturity of the team
32:42and even some of the immaturity of the coaching staff in positions that they'd never been
32:45in before really start to come into play.
32:48And it's really hard at that point then to sort of get everybody back and pulling in
32:52the same direction.
32:54And so, you know, another player told me is like, eventually came to the point where
33:00I just had to look myself in the mirror and say, am I doing everything that I can do?
33:04And as long as I know that I'm doing everything and I'm going the extra mile, I'm studying
33:07more tape, I'm getting in that extra lift, I'm getting treatment sometimes when I don't
33:11even need it just to make sure I feel my freshest for the game.
33:15And then I can at least look at my guys in my room or the guys in my huddle and say.
33:21That's what I'm about.
33:22Are you going to be about that, too?
33:24Then I could be at least proud of the effort that I put forth.
33:26But knowing it was like we're not going to get an edge on the sideline.
33:30It's just not going to happen.
33:32So it becomes on us to make special plays.
33:35And we didn't have enough special talent to make special plays.
33:37So that's part of it.
33:40I'll give you this.
33:41I kind of go on here that I think there was a definite pull and pull between.
33:45And we saw some cracks about this publicly.
33:48Wolf made a comment to our friend Henry McKenna from Fox Sports about sort of like, you know,
33:53we thought, for instance, Jalen Polk was a plug and play guy.
33:56But I think we all thought that.
33:57We watched him in August.
33:58He looked like, yeah, the speed was going to be a little bit of a problem at times.
34:02But like, he looks like he's going to be one of your two or three best receivers, and he's
34:05not going to come off the field in passing situations.
34:08And then he looked like that in training camp, by the way.
34:10Yeah, yeah.
34:11We saw it.
34:12And then for whatever reason, week one, week two, week two, it just it fell off.
34:18And they never got that kid back.
34:19Now, I think that says something about the kid, too.
34:22Yeah.
34:23However, like you're a coach, I think the front office looks at and says there are better
34:29players there that you just didn't develop.
34:33And the coaching staff looks at him and says, you gave us chicken shit and want us to make
34:38chicken salad.
34:39And quite frankly, like there was another quote in there, like we're we're asking the
34:43guys to do the basic things.
34:46And it's actually asking them to play above their level, that they're not capable of it.
34:50So it becomes like this.
34:51All right, well, this is how we play.
34:54And we've really stripped it down and he still can't do it.
34:58And we don't have anyone else.
35:00So then what like how do we how do we do it?
35:02You know, so that push and pull certainly didn't help, you know, Gerard and the coaching
35:06staff's cause as the season played out.
35:10We have some breaking news.
35:11Oh, you ready?
35:14Byron Lefkowitz, currently an unemployed coach, is interviewing for the Patriots head coaching
35:20job today, according to Mike Jones of The Athletic.
35:25That says to me, the Patriots are going to move fast on Mike Frabel, as promised.
35:30And this search, based on the little information that we have, which might not be the complete
35:35picture, are ready to hire him maybe by the end of this week.
35:39That's how I read into this.
35:41The key will be, of course, if this interview with Byron Lefkowitz is in person, like we
35:45talked about the beginning.
35:46If it is, they just satisfied half of the room.
35:49Yeah, I mean, so it brings me back to the word of sham, right?
35:53Like Byron Lefkowitz has been out of football.
35:56I know like Todd Bowles is and there was just a story on him, I believe, in the last week
36:00or so, sort of like reannouncing his candidacy to come back into the league.
36:04And Bruce Arians, who was his mentor, quoted like this is ridiculous.
36:08It doesn't have a head coaching job.
36:09It's just ridiculous that he's not in the league.
36:11But this is an easy way to check a box.
36:16Because I don't, I mean, I just, you're going to hire someone who's never been a head coach.
36:21You just did that.
36:22Not only that, but the guy's been out of the league for at least, I think, two seasons,
36:25right?
36:26So.
36:27Yeah.
36:28Also, I would say probably close to Tom Brady, who might have, again, purely reckless, reckless
36:34called in a favor for his pal, Robert.
36:38So look.
36:39And maybe, hey, look, and maybe Byron Lefwish says some things that make them think, ooh,
36:47if what's Mike's, what's Rabel's plan as an offensive coordinator?
36:51And maybe, hey, Mike, you might want to talk to Byron before we finalize things.
36:54Maybe, you know, Byron showed you some things.
36:58He was on a staff that won the Super Bowl, right?
37:01Like it had a big, big role in that.
37:03Like this is this is not discounting Byron Lefwish, again, currently unemployed as a
37:07football coach or a football mind, like worked very well with Brady and a lot of talent.
37:11And Mike Rabel can pick up the phone and talk to Tom Brady about him.
37:13So there's.
37:14Yes.
37:15It's just a way of saying this is moving fast.
37:17Like if you wanted this search simply to be a means to a very specific end, not open minded,
37:24not open ended.
37:25You want to get this done.
37:27This is a step you would take.
37:29That's what this says to me.
37:30A couple more items Monday morning before we get to Robert, who a couple more actually
37:35Let's go back to the press conference.
37:37He deflects on Rabel specifically, says, oh, we're talking about the people I don't really
37:41know anything about.
37:42So I want to meet them before I comment on Mike, OK?
37:45No input, he says, in the season finale.
37:47I took that as one of two things.
37:49He doesn't want to give any kind of voice to what was an obvious tank job by the Patriots,
37:53just not as effective as the Bills.
37:55Or he was told by Gerard and Elliott ahead of time, hey, we're going to do this because
37:59that's how the communication goes, right?
38:00You tell everyone up above what you're going to do, OK?
38:04And it sounds like that conversation was had.
38:07He also said status quo.
38:09So coaching staff right now is in place.
38:12Front office is in place.
38:14Alex Van Pelt, not fired.
38:16Again, Alex Van Pelt, not fired.
38:20And that was it.
38:21Did I miss anything?
38:22Alex Van Pelt's not fired.
38:24Oh, OK.
38:25Yeah.
38:26Did you say that?
38:27Back to the locker room.
38:28Monday morning.
38:29Mixed.
38:30Again, you wrote about it.
38:32Really great quotes, insightful quotes that were off the record.
38:34David Andrews goes for 15, 20 minutes as the guy you want, the kind of leaders that they
38:38need in the locker room.
38:39Devon Gotchow talking about culture, guys admitted that's what it is.
38:43Christian Gonzalez had the smile on his face while talking about Gerard Mayo being fired
38:46even though he was saying good things.
38:48I don't really want to read into that.
38:49I will say this because I don't like this to become public.
38:52Jelani Tavai, as he was packing up his things and all the guys had these big trash bags
38:56and the stuff that, you know, obviously you're throwing away or stuff you want to take home
38:59and you leave the team stuff in the locker room.
39:01Generally, sometimes he'd pick and choose who's being, who's being, um, how would you
39:09put it?
39:10Babysat?
39:11Yeah.
39:12Monitored.
39:13There was a human buffer.
39:14If you wanted to talk to Jelani Tavai on the last day of availability.
39:17I don't know if this is because ownership didn't trust him to speak for himself or if
39:21they didn't want the reporters just talking to him, period.
39:24Is it more about us or is it more about him?
39:25Whatever the case was, I had never seen this before.
39:28I never heard of it, but one and at times two security guards parked by him.
39:32Well, everyone else goes in and out of the locker room, coaches, players, too many media.
39:37We're both there.
39:38No one got a word into him.
39:39A couple of people tried.
39:40Oh, he's busy.
39:41He's packing.
39:42He's packing.
39:43Leave him alone.
39:44Whew.
39:45Yep.
39:46Pretty, pretty absurd.
39:47Um, and interesting.
39:49So I'll reference my article again.
39:50That's in Boston sports journal today.
39:52Uh, I was talking to a coach and the Tavai blasting the fans came up and he said he called
40:01it crazy.
40:02The coach did.
40:03And he said that, you know, I understand he had his heart in the right place, but he turned
40:07an unsuccessful team into, and this was his words into an unlikable one.
40:11And they might've been unlikable before that, but that certainly just sort of encapsulated
40:17what had been, uh, you know, just a horrific ending.
40:21He'd lost six straight coming into the finale against Buffalo and, um, you know, any hopes
40:26and dreams of, of, you know, being better than what Belichick put out the year before
40:31or showing signs of life had, you know, clearly gone out the window.
40:35And I just thought it was, it was interesting that like, look, I think guys have Jelani's
40:38back in terms of he's a warrior.
40:41He goes out there, he plays hard, you know, the toughest guy on the team earlier this
40:45year.
40:46Yeah.
40:47He, I mean, he, he, I commend him.
40:49He played hard all year long.
40:50Didn't lose draw, didn't play well, particularly at times, but played hard all year long.
40:56But it was sort of just kind of like the bow on, on this, on this wonderful present of
41:02a season that we had.
41:03Yeah.
41:04All right.
41:05Sunday night.
41:06Uh, you and I, and a lot of other people are writing in the press box.
41:08Um, I found out walking from the concourse underneath the stands to go back to the press
41:13box.
41:14News pops up.
41:15Adam Schefter, boom, fire Schefter's report pregame certainly set off alarm bells for
41:20me.
41:21And in speaking with some people within the team set off alarm bells for them being like
41:25Schefter doesn't lean.
41:27And that's how he put it.
41:28Like it's definitive.
41:29And he's in, he's with, and he's had reports that are very transparently a favor to an
41:32agent or this coach, whatever, and reporters in various spots dabble here and there.
41:37I say, this is someone who has obviously the utmost respect for his general work and will
41:40break more news, uh, in the future than I will or ever have.
41:45So when that set off alarm bells in the building, I don't know how it affected, if at all the
41:50staff, but that was the most definitive, Hey, this is more likely to happen than not that
41:56we got from any kind of reporting.
41:59And we saw what the game was, but what, how did from the time his first report to the
42:04last one kind of shift what you were expecting or thinking and anything that you heard in
42:07between?
42:08Yeah.
42:09So to me, I thought it was going to happen.
42:11I just didn't expect it to happen 90 minutes after the football game.
42:14I think that was sort of, and even with that being put out there, like when I first read
42:19it, I'm like, is he, is he just, I mean, he's just saying what we know is going to happen,
42:25but it's still going to not going to happen until Tuesday or Wednesday.
42:27And that was my vibe with my feeling was that he wouldn't quite get the Bella check treatment
42:32and drag it out for several days out of sort of respect for bill.
42:35And they obviously had to negotiate some things behind the scenes, but like, Oh, I made this
42:40so personal.
42:42I'm just not going to pop them right away.
42:44I'm going to pretend like I'm giving him a chance to save himself and, and save this
42:50coaching staff or come up with other plans and sort of feed it to the media in that regard.
42:55And then do what I was going to do all along, which was say, thanks for your service, but
43:01it's not working.
43:02So I guess that that sort of pushed it more like, Oh, this could happen a little bit sooner
43:08than I thought.
43:09But again, I did not, I still did not think it was going to happen 90 minutes after the
43:13game.
43:15I, I don't go back up into the press box post-game after I come down, I go locker room, you're
43:21bounced between the locker room and the press conference room where the players come and
43:23Mayo comes with head coaches.
43:25And then I write in there.
43:26I just tend to, it's Dan Roach is doing TV.
43:29It's Dan Roach.
43:30It's three other people, you know, his crew members and it's me in that room generally.
43:34And it's just sort of my habit.
43:36I don't, this is going to sound, I don't like to hear other people's like pounding on their
43:41keyboards.
43:42It drives me, it drives me nuts.
43:45I like to just sort of be in my own world and listen to Roachie say dumb things to me
43:48while I have my headphones on.
43:50Legitimately, all of a sudden, I just happened to look down and I was like, Oh, and I, I
43:58called, I called Bedard and I was like, it happened.
44:02He's like, get out.
44:03I was like, no, you know, he was obviously doing his thing and, and not looking at Twitter
44:06and you know, then it was sort of, okay, I'm going to, I've already written 700 words
44:11here.
44:12I'm going to have to, you know, sort of pivot and try to get something out quicker.
44:17But yeah, just, just and look, I think we, you know, we've seen here in the last 24 hours
44:24or so, just the player reaction of being just a shock.
44:27Like we didn't get to say goodbye, you know, that he went, you know, by all accounts, Mayo
44:32went to the, to his coaches in the sort of in the, the area where they're having food
44:37after the game.
44:38And he was like, let's get fired.
44:39And it was like, Oh, like, not that they didn't necessarily think it was coming, but yeah,
44:46it just didn't think it was going to happen in that moment.
44:49So before then Patriots, but balls out highest pass rating, any Patriots quarterback produced
44:58all season at the bazooka Joe Patriots also lost out in the number one overall pick.
45:03And we'll get a final thought after this.
45:06It's a big loss.
45:07I don't think there was much more you could have done reasonably to tank that game.
45:12Playing a quarterback would never played before on when he was sitting after one drive, same
45:15with Drake may reminder, Steven Hunter Henry, don't even play.
45:18You go on the defensive side, Duggar gotcha.
45:20I was sitting at halftime.
45:21It was just that the bills were playing for incentives for their punter, Josh Allen's
45:26personal streak, James Cook gets another touchdown and they're passing up field goals again to
45:31give their punter a hundred thousand dollar incentive.
45:33So you tanked worse than them.
45:34Joe Milton plays better than anyone expected.
45:38The fourth pick is worth a lot less.
45:40And by the old Jimmy Johnson chart is worth that drop off is worth the 12th overall pick.
45:44Like that's how many points in the trade value chart, the modern ones say a little bit less,
45:47but the point is, and it one or two quarterback draft class, you lost the potential to add.
45:52I would say at least a future first round pick.
45:57How devastating it's a bit strong damning is that for the future or how, how does that
46:05limit the rebuild in the way that keeping the number one overall pick would help?
46:08I mean, obviously slows your potential to get better, better, faster with cost controlled
46:13players.
46:14Even as you mentioned, picking 12th is it's still significantly you're paying that guy
46:18significantly more money than you would pay a second, third round pick or whatever.
46:23But I think I was one of the few people, if not the only one, and I know people yelled
46:26at me and I get it.
46:28I did not want them to tank the game.
46:31I think he, to your point, he managed the game about as well as he could.
46:35You can't tell the guys we're trying to lose, or you can't even necessarily like, okay,
46:41yeah, we're benching guys.
46:42We're sitting guys.
46:43We're not going to play these guys.
46:44So you kind of know like, Hey, we're not all in, but the 53 guff, whatever the number that's
46:50out there, the players that are out there, I'm out here.
46:53I'm putting out my tape.
46:55Like you can't tell Joe Milton, like what's Joe Milton going to do if you say on third
46:59and eight, we're just going to run, you know, first and second, third down, we're just going
47:01to run full back dives.
47:03You have to call the game with some sort of integrity.
47:07And they did.
47:08And I think, as you said, I think Joe played a lot better than anybody could have imagined.
47:12So I think it became apparent early on, like, Oh, he's in a good groove.
47:17And there was probably not enough talk going into it about bills.
47:23We knew the bills didn't give a crap, but I don't know that we knew the extent that
47:27they wouldn't give a crap.
47:30And yeah, they out tanked you.
47:33When you're passing up points, which they put in Mike White, who they signed off the
47:38street or to their practice squad, whatever it was like two weeks ago, they were like,
47:43Mitch Trubisky is too good for us to tank right now.
47:46That's how they were tanked.
47:47By the way, Mitch Trubisky is still the quarterback after all these years that on third and 15,
47:51he throws the ball seven yards, on third and eight he throws it four yards, on third and
47:55four he throws it two yards.
47:57Anyway, neither here nor there, they did a better job of out tanking you.
48:01I didn't think they'd want to win the game.
48:04I didn't realize how much they wanted you to win the game.
48:09And it makes sense, right?
48:11I don't want to give you the number one pick.
48:13I just didn't know that they would go to the lengths that they did to ensure that you ended
48:17up with that falling from one to four.
48:20Yeah, me neither.
48:21All right.
48:22In the process of doing this podcast, I have now two things to write up as soon as we're
48:25done.
48:26So we're going to wrap here.
48:27Again, we said it earlier, Byron Lefkowitz is going to interview with the Patriots today.
48:31Not clear yet if it's in person or if it's virtual.
48:33You might find out by the time you listen to this.
48:35Marcus Covington interviewing for the Bengals, defensive coordinator job, as well as Patrick
48:39Graham, who's more qualified and just a better coach right now.
48:42And Mike Vrabel interviewing tomorrow with the Bears for the Patriots sometime this week.
48:47Anything we didn't cover or didn't spend enough time on about just what's happened in the
48:50last 72 hours with this franchise?
48:53I'm trying to think if we missed anything.
48:57I feel like we had a good, good long talk.
49:01No, I don't think.
49:03I think we kind of, I think we covered it.
49:05I think we nailed it.
49:06That's what I was hoping to hear.
49:09I have to go.
49:10All right.
49:11Well, go right.
49:12Go right.
49:13Where can we listen and read you and anything else coming up?
49:18So we did the All-32 pod yesterday on the Mayo firing and other happenings around the
49:21league.
49:22We'll have another one later in the week.
49:23I had the article today on Boston Sports Journal, sort of the behind the scenes commentary
49:29on what happened.
49:30Then we'll just be all over the, like you, I have to write now too.
49:34I just wasn't complaining about it, about things that are happening.
49:38And I do expect it quickly, right?
49:41Do you think, you said Friday, like Monday feels like?
49:46Vrabel?
49:47Yeah, it feels like that might be the day.
49:49Just a feeling.
49:50End of the week.
49:51So again, the timeline can be expedited as soon as you meet the criteria for the Rooney
49:55rule and all this different stuff.
49:58They could be halfway there, but if Byron Lefkowitz only interviews virtually, it doesn't
50:02count.
50:03So that's a big thing here.
50:05Again, it's just, if you wanted to expedite this as quickly as possible and get your guy
50:08and get rebuilding, which I don't understand.
50:11This is how you would act as far as we know, but there's a lot more information still to
50:14come out.
50:15Granted, also, we'll see what Vrabel demands or already has demanded and whether or not
50:19they're willing to meet that.
50:20There's still a long way to go, but today has gone faster than I would expect.
50:25I want to caution anyone just tempted to pull a tiny piece of this podcast out there.
50:31Just drag a little context there with it.
50:33That's all.
50:34Yeah.
50:35Good luck with that.
50:36All right.
50:37Good luck to you.
50:38Thanks, man.
50:39Thanks, bud.