A special Pats Interference-Pats Chat joint episode launches into Andrew and Doug's deep dive on the Patriots' lost 2024 season for the Boston Herald, with sources speaking to them from all levels of the organization. Pats Chat co-host Mike Hurley also joins, and together the guys finish on Mike Vrabel's interview in New England.
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00:00:00Well, here we are, Pat's interference, Pat's chat, special joint episode, first of all,
00:00:14I hope we do more. I'll say that on the front end, I don't know how this is going to go,
00:00:17but I hope we do more. The Patriots, of course, hope they're not going to repeat anything
00:00:21anytime soon, not because of what Doug and I reported today, inside story you can find
00:00:24at the Boston Herald, or anything that Michael Hurley's done to them by showing up for their
00:00:28last game when they won and they were supposed to lose. But we're here to break it down.
00:00:32And of course, talking about Mike Vrabel, who might be the Patriots head coach by the
00:00:36time we wrap here today. Simple question, Doug, because you and I have talked more than
00:00:39I think we've talked to anyone else on planet Earth over the last two or three days. The
00:00:44story's out. Everything we know is out. Everyone's read it. I haven't asked you this question.
00:00:50From all the things that we learned talking to people in the front office and on the staff
00:00:53and in the locker room and other places around the team, what stood out most when we finally
00:00:57answered the question to you of like, hey, what the hell happened here?
00:01:03I think my number one takeaway is that there really was a divide within the building about
00:01:06how people felt about John Mayo. There was people who were fully supportive. I think
00:01:11the players really liked him a lot. I think, you know, some coaches in front off and then
00:01:18basically like the coaches in front office were essentially split on how they felt about
00:01:24him and the job they did. You know, the the performance that he did, how he prepared himself,
00:01:29how he interacted with other people. So I think that that's why maybe there was some
00:01:36questions by the end of the season of how the Patriots would handle this, what the crafts
00:01:41would do, how they would move forward, if they would go with Drodd, Mayor, if they would
00:01:45fire him. So did seem like opinions really changed by the winter, like November, December
00:01:54that's when it seems to really sway towards firing Drodd Mayo. But that was really the
00:01:58number one takeaway. Like there were people that we talked to who were 100 percent supportive
00:02:02of the job that he did, felt like he deserved another year, felt like he needed more time.
00:02:06And there were others that were straight up, I would say, relieved over the decision that
00:02:12Robert Kraft made.
00:02:13Early, what stood out to you? Yeah, I would say, I mean, you guys clearly now first is
00:02:17cool because you have Herald journalist, Andrew Callahan, Herald journalist, Doug Hyde, and
00:02:23guy, just random guy, Mike Hurley. So this is like, it's like I won a contest. So thank
00:02:28you, guys.
00:02:29Pat's chat host, but also basement man. And judging by the lack of light in your house
00:02:32might have recently converted to being Amish. Yes.
00:02:35Yes. Dude, the basement was too cold. I had to move upstairs. I don't know. So dark. We're
00:02:39going to move on. I would say I read your story. It was clear how much legwork went
00:02:43into it, how you tried to turn over every stone. And my takeaway was sort of there was
00:02:48no massive incident or a huge scandal or certain things that just where it had to
00:02:56be done. It felt like more you painted a picture of a head coach who wasn't very good and didn't
00:03:03offer much inspiration to the powers that be that it would improve as quickly as it
00:03:08needed to.
00:03:10Maybe I took some of my own estimations into that, but that was that was my main takeaway.
00:03:15And then the other one was that probably for the first time. And maybe I mean, it's
00:03:22happened on like radio and things like that. In the building, it feels like some eyes are
00:03:26looking up at the owner's box saying, what the hell? What's going on here? Whether that's
00:03:32coaches, whether that's players, whether it's whatever, because the shield is gone in Bill
00:03:36Belichick. And I think this being Robert Kraft's hire and it not working out, there's more
00:03:41skepticism and leery eyes looking up there than I think I was probably thinking of this
00:03:47week. So, I mean, I know that's where the story ended, but there was a quote in there
00:03:50early on, you know, decisions are made by guys in their 80s who don't know really much
00:03:55about football. It stood out to me. So those are my two my two takeaways.
00:03:59Yeah, it's always the 80 year old white dude. It's just in this instance, the the offense
00:04:03is not knowing the football, which is what you're presiding over. Look, I don't know.
00:04:07It feels like at the best, self-involved, at the worst, douchey to be like, oh, my take is
00:04:12big away from this story. I co-authored with my colleague.
00:04:14Take it away.
00:04:16Yeah. But I just think someone's tired.
00:04:20Is, you know, what you mentioned at the end, Hurley, is also kind of a reflection of the fan
00:04:26base, right? Like everyone's been crying and looking at the Krafts being like, how could you
00:04:30let this happen? Why is this so dysfunctional?
00:04:33Brady's gone. Belichick's gone.
00:04:34There's no more shield now.
00:04:35There are no more people to fire unless you just truly want to commit to this bit of being the
00:04:40AFC Panthers, right?
00:04:41Like, Gerard Mayo's gone.
00:04:42That was the plan for years.
00:04:43So what are you going to do next?
00:04:45And in the same way that people on the outside are mad, media members included, pointing out
00:04:48all the flaws and bad decisions, like it is inside the building.
00:04:51So it doesn't inspire a ton of confidence moving forward.
00:04:54But when you look at Gerard, it was consistently bad in the media.
00:04:57It was consistently bad behind the scenes.
00:04:58We knew that. How it manifested, though, in like all these different corners of the building,
00:05:02you go, he's in charge of most of it.
00:05:04And it is his fault, as people told us.
00:05:06But like this was bigger than him, bigger than any one person.
00:05:10And if it was going to be one person, you would start at the top with ownership.
00:05:14Yeah. And I do think that, you know, the quote that Michael was talking about earlier, even the
00:05:19second part of it, of there's no board to answer to anything.
00:05:22We're in a unique business. Like unless you hire a hiring consultant firm like the Jets have
00:05:29done with the 33rd team, it it genuinely is like obviously people who own NFL teams for
00:05:3530 years know a lot about the business, know a decent amount about football just by being
00:05:42around it for 30 years.
00:05:43But it is kind of wild that those are the guys who are making these ultimate decisions of
00:05:48like, oh, I like that.
00:05:50I like the way he handled himself on a flight back to Israel.
00:05:53He's going to be our head coach in five years.
00:05:55And like, and that's, I think, part of the reason why that didn't work out is that he there was
00:06:01trusting the instincts on it and maybe not, you know, Robert Kraft like to say that he likes to
00:06:07measure nine times and and cut once.
00:06:10And maybe that wasn't the best example of him doing that with Gerard Mayo, especially since it's
00:06:15come out since then, that they kind of rushed this a year early, that they wanted Bill Belichick to
00:06:20coach for one more year and then have Gerard Mayo take over.
00:06:24And in order to rush it like that, and it really did seem like that was a lot of Gerard Mayo's
00:06:31problem is that he wasn't always, didn't always have the confidence of everyone within the
00:06:37building. And there were a couple of different quotes on that.
00:06:39And one where like, you know, Gerard was the highest of the highs after wins, lowest of the
00:06:44lows after losses.
00:06:46Someone shot his dog.
00:06:48That's how he, that's how it worked.
00:06:49Bouncing off the walls.
00:06:50Does he have a dog?
00:06:51And not anymore, not after losses, but but then like the quote basically being like after the
00:06:59after the Bengals game that, OK, you know, we were all sitting inside the building watching the
00:07:05tape and being like, oh, my God, we got lucky like that.
00:07:08This is this is not sustainable.
00:07:11This is not going to work for the rest of the year.
00:07:13And I mean, that that was a major takeaway, I think, even for Andrew and I this season of just
00:07:17listening Gerard after that win over the Bengals and being like, I don't know if this is going to
00:07:21keep happening. Like, I guess, get all the excitement out now.
00:07:25But then also just the quote about like talking about all the North Stars and people inside the
00:07:29building being like, what are they?
00:07:31Are you going to share them with us?
00:07:32Like, what what what are these North Stars?
00:07:36And you've got to look out the front windshield as we've established.
00:07:39Yes. And I mean, we've kind of joked that I think that Gerard said that like or someone said the
00:07:44North Star is always moving or something like that.
00:07:46And it doesn't matter what you did in an NFL network piece that like, look, the league owns the
00:07:52network employees, the reporter who wrote it.
00:07:54So when I say puff piece, this is not like slamming that particular person.
00:07:58It's just how those things go. Oh, come to the building.
00:07:59We'll tell you. And we understand if certain things you are supposed to see, you're not going to
00:08:04write about it. That's not what we're doing here.
00:08:05Right. But that in that piece in April, that's how it was put of like Robin Glazer.
00:08:09Oh, it's the thing that's always moving.
00:08:11But it's the one thing that we're chasing.
00:08:12The North Star famously fixated in the northern direction.
00:08:17There are two things you kind of likely hit on there.
00:08:19I want to throw you to Hurley, like pick one, because related to this is the idea that early on we
00:08:25were told, hey, if they beat the Chargers or they hold on in Arizona or even those games are
00:08:29close, the Crafts might just run this back.
00:08:31That's that's that's how close this was.
00:08:34This big sweeping decision came down to really just kind of two games.
00:08:38Number two is there was someone and this didn't make the story.
00:08:41So this is for everyone hanging out here in a special past interference podcast had shared with me
00:08:47someone I would describe as pro male.
00:08:49Look, the Crafts had been around less this year than really the last 20 years or so team
00:08:54meetings. And they felt whether this person was right or wrong, that the issues that we all talked
00:09:00about in the media, his flubs, inconsistencies, et cetera, the football was bad.
00:09:03Don't get me wrong. Were issues not to the football team, but impressed upon ownership.
00:09:08And they were worried about like, hey, like, yeah, it's annoying and distracting for players, but that's a
00:09:12losing season. And they felt issues as we portrayed them that might have related to ownership
00:09:17fueled the decision that he thought was different from the football, even as bad as it was.
00:09:20So like which which of those two, the Crafts making a decision based on fan and media impressions
00:09:26versus even if they did decide on the football, this could have been flipped by six, eight
00:09:31quarters. I mean, it's all kind of together because I'm thinking there if they came out and lost in
00:09:38Arizona but looked competent and if they lost 30 to seven instead of 40 to seven of the
00:09:43Chargers, are we having this podcast?
00:09:45And that's I don't know.
00:09:47That's where you have to wonder about the decision making and why it's happening and why this
00:09:53was we were live, Doug, when the statement went out like Gerard Mayo is staying with the
00:09:59Patriots. It was that weirdest statement of all time.
00:10:02And it was clearly decided like this is going to be our guy.
00:10:05And that's years ago now that it could all come down to this was a game and they won four
00:10:12games. I think optimistically we were looking at seven at best, worst three.
00:10:18And they're like still in that range.
00:10:20So to me, it was more about everything going on in there.
00:10:23And Doug, you mentioned the comment I wanted to get on that one, the Bengals game and how he
00:10:28was basically saying, like, we can run on anyone.
00:10:30You can't stop. I haven't watched that game in months.
00:10:34I remember Mike Kosicki fumbling one inch from the goal line.
00:10:38And I remember Joe Cardona sticking his helmet through the football on a punt.
00:10:42And it's like they won that game by three.
00:10:45Was it fifteen, twelve?
00:10:45Was that the score or something like that?
00:10:47Sixteen, ten, sixteen, ten.
00:10:48Yeah, same thing.
00:10:50The point is that game in it, remember a year ago, I think it was a Wickersham story when it
00:10:56was like the end of Belichick and all that.
00:10:58And it got into Mayo carried himself a certain way.
00:11:00And I credit you guys for not going full drama the way our friend Seth does, because he's really
00:11:06good at it. But sometimes it's a little dramatic.
00:11:09But that comment there kind of like the way Gerard carried himself was noticed not just by
00:11:15whoever was talking, but coaches on this year's staff, it feels like where it's just sort of
00:11:20like, guy, we barely won that game.
00:11:22Where were you at the game?
00:11:24And it just it's just kind of jarring that that was the culture.
00:11:28So to me, to get answer your question, the culture wasn't what was expected.
00:11:33But man, it's a little scary to think if they played better in those two losses, you wouldn't
00:11:38even have this conversation because you're supposed to be doing what's best for the franchise,
00:11:41not what happened last week.
00:11:44I'll also say that, you know, I think that some of the concerns over Mayo predated him even
00:11:50becoming a head coach of people that I talked to of like you were like, all right, I mean, we'll
00:11:55see how this goes, because we wrote in the piece that like sometimes you wouldn't
00:12:00necessarily he like ask for advice, but not necessarily listen to it.
00:12:04And that wasn't unique to him being a head coach.
00:12:07And I don't want to pile on Mayo on this or whatever, but I think it does speak ultimately
00:12:13to ownership, giving him the job before he was ready for it.
00:12:16And maybe once he took the job, not changing and adjusting as much.
00:12:21But I did want to bring up one other thing where one of my other main takeaways was talking
00:12:25to people. It still feels like some people on the team in the organization are like thinking
00:12:33that everything went fine almost.
00:12:35And maybe that's like maybe that's over exaggerating.
00:12:37But like one person I talked to, like the first words out of their mouth were basically
00:12:41like, what did you think was going to happen this year?
00:12:43Like, what was your expectations?
00:12:45I was like, I mean, honestly, I expect you guys to win about four games, but I also expected
00:12:50you guys to start getting better over the course of the season.
00:12:54And it seemed like things were worse by the end.
00:12:56But then something that that same person said by the end was like, yeah, you know, in the
00:13:01last four games, we played well in two of them.
00:13:04We didn't play well in the other two.
00:13:06And you would like to be better than 50-50 in those games.
00:13:10And like, it's true, but they also lost three of the games.
00:13:14So it's like I think that was more kind of comparing it to like the Dan Campbell situation
00:13:18with the Lions.
00:13:19Oh, God, like, like, oh, you know, they they won three of their last three.
00:13:23Well, we played well in two of our last four and we won the game.
00:13:27We should have lost ultimately the franchise backups.
00:13:31And you still lost the game that you guys, you know, like and I it seems like maybe it'll
00:13:36take a while, but maybe there's not full accountability from everyone within the building at this
00:13:40point.
00:13:41No, there's not.
00:13:42And that goes for players who were specifically called out in the quote in the story.
00:13:47It goes for coaches whom a player called out saying, I think discipline was the big deal
00:13:52here, right?
00:13:53Like we're cutting corners.
00:13:54And that was kind of the story of what happened with Mayo and then even some of the front
00:13:56office where Elliot Wolfe tells me on the record in September, kind of a throwaway question
00:14:00for me.
00:14:01Hey, I'm going to ask you about taking what you think about the roster, where things are
00:14:03going next, you know, state of the union kind of stuff before the season.
00:14:07And the throwaway was, hey, where do you think you could improve?
00:14:09Like, this is a new job for you, but you've been around forever.
00:14:12And he's like, I think I could be more assertive, like I could, you know, be more aggressive
00:14:15was the word he used.
00:14:17And someone in the team goes, he's got to put his foot down more, like not listen to
00:14:21the coaches as much.
00:14:22And so inconsistency happens, losing happens.
00:14:25It is curious to me, though, that Doug, and I don't know what you're going to say to this.
00:14:27We need to take a break.
00:14:28And then your answer on the other side.
00:14:31We experienced a culture day to day in the locker room, talking to people off record
00:14:35during the season.
00:14:36We knew it was bad.
00:14:38From what we've gleaned the last 72 to 96 hours, was this worse than we even knew being
00:14:44in the building almost as much as anyone who is a part of the team?
00:14:48Your answer next.
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00:15:53So I didn't realize my voice cracked at the end there.
00:15:56So we need seasons over.
00:16:02So I would say worse, um, and because we, we talked to a lot of these people throughout
00:16:08the season, obviously, like we're not just like, Oh, let's talk to everyone at the end
00:16:12of the season.
00:16:13But I do think that people hide some of their true feelings when you're talking to them
00:16:17during the season because they don't want to paint the team in a bad light.
00:16:21They don't want to, they, they, yeah, they don't want like a negative story around the
00:16:25team when it's still ongoing.
00:16:27But then after the season, when things happen and things change, then you get the real story
00:16:33of how people feel.
00:16:34So that's why I would say it was worse.
00:16:37I mean, I would also say that just like simply the device situation at the end of the year
00:16:43illustrated more than anything that the culture was worse than we thought.
00:16:47Just because it's like, how do you not get this under control?
00:16:50Like how, how is he speaking three times on this manner and never apologizing and continuing
00:16:56to double and triple down?
00:16:57So that's another aspect that I would just say, like they really needed to rein in the
00:17:01control of the players.
00:17:02It never happened, even though I think there might've been some attempts to do it, but
00:17:08in the long, in the long run, like it just never happened.
00:17:12Can I tell you guys when it was over for me when I knew it'd be over?
00:17:15I just, I quickly Googled it was earlier than I thought it was, it was September 27th.
00:17:24I'm trying, that might be it.
00:17:25I thought I felt it was a little bit later, but there was a press conference and it had
00:17:28become clear that Gerard Mayo during games didn't do a lot of talking.
00:17:33Had the headset on, as we know, had a lot of channels going on, which he was flicking
00:17:37back and forth on, but was not really coaching the football team.
00:17:41And it was a press conference like midweek, maybe Friday.
00:17:44And I think it was Taylor Kyle's who might've asked him, I forget who was like, Hey, um,
00:17:48you know, do you talk during the game?
00:17:50And it was, I think an honest question, but I was just like, well, that's not, that's
00:17:54not good for the coach.
00:17:55Um, that's not a good sign when you're drawing Jim Caldwell, uh, comparisons right off the
00:18:02bat.
00:18:03And that's, that's where I think Mayo messed up when he said he should be more aggressive.
00:18:06It's like you have to have a vision and then impress upon people what that vision may be.
00:18:11And as you guys mentioned, I don't think anyone knew what that vision was.
00:18:14And so how could he impress it on, upon people if he didn't know what it was himself?
00:18:19Yeah.
00:18:20And I've said this before, like the less talent you have, the more coaching matters.
00:18:25So even within, you know, the margin of error of like, Oh, he's a rookie and he'll excuse
00:18:28this and that, and he'll learn like the most damning part about this was the regression
00:18:33in the middle of the season, not just with the on-field product where that supposedly
00:18:36crossed the line for the crafts, but in the fact that Mayo himself became an error repeater
00:18:41in the process.
00:18:42And that was something that in talking to people, it was sometimes a little bit jarring
00:18:46being like, Oh, what did you expect?
00:18:47Of course it was going to go bad.
00:18:48I'm like, well, you can not botch an end of season clock management against the Dolphins
00:18:53in week five, which was the first, like, Whoa, you got out coached and they pivot to
00:18:57Drake and that covers them for a little bit.
00:18:59Jacksonville, the culture comes up, Jayvon Baker.
00:19:01Yes.
00:19:02Miss curfew, miss bed check down there, Taekwon Thornton later in the season, just doesn't
00:19:05show up to the facility gets cut two days later and Mayo's giving cover to those guys.
00:19:09And someone else in the locker room was like, why, why are we doing this?
00:19:13Like if it's bad behavior, we can, we can call that out.
00:19:15Like that's very fundamental, easy stuff.
00:19:17And we're like, it wasn't just the on-field product, but Mayo's messaging to Doug's point
00:19:21at the end, like you're not getting through your players and sometimes just shut up like
00:19:24that.
00:19:25That's what this needs to be because he wanted to see so much to them eye to eye, but sometimes
00:19:30with other people in the organization kind of look down upon them, which lost the message
00:19:33with other people within the team.
00:19:35But with players, it was like, well, if I'm always seeing eye to eye with you, I feel
00:19:38like I don't need to explain as much.
00:19:40Yeah.
00:19:41And I think that some of the, the loss of a overall vision was just the fact that he
00:19:45did want this to be a player led team that he wanted to put the players in charge.
00:19:51I mean, there are people within the building who still think that was a good idea for him
00:19:55to do, but ultimately, and someone said this, like Gerard should have known better than
00:20:02anyone that they didn't necessarily have the leaders to do that.
00:20:05Like, and especially that was the case when Juwan Bentley went down for the season and
00:20:08David Andrews went down for the season.
00:20:10But even with those guys healthy, yeah, it helps to have, you know, one or two really
00:20:17strong leaders on your team.
00:20:19But like in 2014, let's say like when you had like Tom Brady, you had Gerard Mayo, you
00:20:25had a Devin McCourty, you had like five or six of these types of guys.
00:20:31And then this year you're like trying to fill gaps by throwing guys a captain's patch and
00:20:36like, Hey, you get to be a captain.
00:20:38Oh, this guy's out for the season.
00:20:39Now you get to be a captain.
00:20:40It's like, and even still, I think guys who never even reached captaincy for probably
00:20:45a good reason, still wound up being the most vocal ones on the team and wound up kind of
00:20:51taking over, maybe not leadership, but as someone said in the story, like they wound
00:20:55up being influencers in the locker room and those wound up being overall like selfish
00:21:01players who were kind of thinking out for themselves, but they're among the eldest players
00:21:08on the team.
00:21:09So they almost automatically become leaders at that point.
00:21:12So, you know, obviously some people think that it was a good idea at first to be that
00:21:18player led organization, player led team.
00:21:21But it did feel like at a certain point, Gerard probably should have said like, Hey, this
00:21:26isn't working.
00:21:27I've got to step in and be that leader and have this be, I guess, a coach led team rather
00:21:32than a player led team.
00:21:33Is, can you guys help me out?
00:21:35Is there a team in the NFL that's player led?
00:21:38Because I think of like players, coaches, like guys that aren't hard, like Sean McVay,
00:21:42Mike McDaniel, but the team very much follows their instruction.
00:21:46You know, they are almost sort of anal about every detail and facet of the X's and O's.
00:21:52Is there a team where it's like, Oh, the players got this.
00:21:55I can't imagine that working.
00:21:58Well, I think what that means is, Hey, when the coaches aren't in the room, we're not,
00:22:02you know, if you're the coach running the meeting, how are the players acting when they're
00:22:06on their own?
00:22:07Like, do you have that enforcer?
00:22:08And the Patriots very intentionally have that locker that's next to the exit passed
00:22:13down Dante Hightower now to Juwan Bentley.
00:22:15And I think maybe Willie McGinnis before it, I might be screwing up ex-Patriots veteran.
00:22:18Junior Seau too, I think had it.
00:22:19Yeah, there you go.
00:22:20And that is to say, if you want to leave early, you got to go by that guy.
00:22:24And he's going to tell you exactly why this is an issue, because that's what the coach
00:22:29would say.
00:22:30So I think it's more of just, you know, like any organization, like the people below are
00:22:33a reflection on the leader.
00:22:34In this case, sometimes, um, some of, you know, Gerard's more, uh, immature and selfish
00:22:39impulses.
00:22:40Oh, Hey, we just gave up 40 points to the chargers, but Hey, the run defense, run defense
00:22:43is good.
00:22:44But in that case, like player led, once you hand the power over or empower them, like
00:22:49you lose a little bit of control.
00:22:51So that trust, I think was just unearned to Doug's point.
00:22:53In addition to some bad luck, we were like, well, we trust David Andrews, he's been a
00:22:57captain forever.
00:22:58We trust Juwan Bentley, even Jabril Peppers, Jacoby Brissett.
00:23:00All four of them were gone for very different reasons.
00:23:03By week six.
00:23:04What did you do after that?
00:23:05Well, not much.
00:23:06And that's when we all started to realize, yeah, this culture is falling apart.
00:23:09Yeah.
00:23:10I don't think he had the, the, the roster to have that sort of mentality toward his
00:23:14first time.
00:23:15It's your first chance coaching and you're like, oh, well, I can lean on some of these
00:23:19guys.
00:23:20You just don't have the locker room for it.
00:23:21One thing while you just mentioned there, I'm disappointed in you guys, if you don't
00:23:25mind me.
00:23:26Uh, and it's not your fault.
00:23:27It's not your fault because no one said it, but I would have liked to hear some people,
00:23:31uh, Doug and I spent many hours on this, on our podcast here saying, well, if you take
00:23:36away the 73 yard run and if you take away the 75 yard pass, we actually did pretty good.
00:23:41I wish there were some people on the staff that were like, I hated when he did that.
00:23:44That's all.
00:23:45I just wish, I just wish someone in the building, uh, was as bothered by that as we were.
00:23:50I mean, there probably was, maybe we just didn't specifically ask about it, but, um,
00:23:56yeah, I, I, I mean, even by the end of the season, people were telling me like, we, we
00:24:01just can't get out of our own way.
00:24:03Like we just, they felt like they just kept shooting themselves in the foot and that was
00:24:06related to the defy thing.
00:24:08But I mean, I think that they're very aware inside the building of like what people are
00:24:13saying to the media, what, like what missteps they're making and how it continues to embarrass
00:24:19the organization.
00:24:20Like I actually would even say, I, I do think that some people on staff, maybe not a hundred
00:24:27percent, but do feel like the media is partially to blame for what went down.
00:24:34And I mean, I think, I don't even know how to respond to it fully, but I do think that
00:24:41there reached a point this season where like, we could no longer ignore what was happening,
00:24:47that it would have been a disservice to be like, no, everything's fine.
00:24:50Let's give them another year because as Andrew said, it was repeated errors over and over
00:24:54and over again.
00:24:55At a certain point, you just have to address those.
00:24:58Well, it was one thing for me to highlight in March at the owners meetings, Hey, there's
00:25:03some media messaging here that's not great, but he'll learn from it.
00:25:07Okay.
00:25:08And that's all we had to go from in March.
00:25:10When you get to September and October and you're going, you're screwing up the easy
00:25:14part.
00:25:15Like there are people in that room every Wednesday, every Friday when the head coach speaks that
00:25:18in their hearts, let's be honest, are really pulling for a win that Sunday.
00:25:22That's fine.
00:25:23But if you can't sway them, if you're screwing up in front of them, why do I trust you as
00:25:26a head coach leader of men to be able to deliver a clear and concise message and expectations
00:25:33for what's going on?
00:25:34Because his expectations as delivered to us always went back and forth a little bit.
00:25:39And I think that got to be the issue now on the media side.
00:25:41Yes.
00:25:42I think there was a detachment, especially if you had that first win, which in retrospect,
00:25:45tell me if I'm wrong.
00:25:46Either of you might've been the worst thing to happen to this team because it changed
00:25:51expectations.
00:25:52They won in an unsustainable way.
00:25:54That was obvious to everyone except for Gerard initially.
00:25:55Then he came around once.
00:25:56And Robert Kraft, you remember his comment in the locker room?
00:26:00Right.
00:26:01And Kraft too, even in the off season is talking about like, Oh, I just, I hope we win some
00:26:05games.
00:26:06I just don't want us to struggle.
00:26:07Hey pal, you're headed for the number one overall pick.
00:26:09Most people knew it.
00:26:10If not that top five, top 10.
00:26:11And so everything goes, well, they just play smart.
00:26:14They're back to Patriot football, but it's modern.
00:26:16And yeah, I got on board with some of that, but I had a quote from someone and we had
00:26:19in the story, it kind of eroded after week two, right?
00:26:23Like you can't run the ball when you're down as they were double digits to Seattle or all
00:26:27these other teams.
00:26:28So I, I think it might've been the worst thing, but expectations, everything just got exaggerated
00:26:33and louder a little bit with the media.
00:26:35So I think that's fair, but everything, culture, messaging, mail, whatever starts with the
00:26:39football in the field.
00:26:41And that wasn't good enough.
00:26:42And it started with the best game of the season being the first, and I would argue in retrospect
00:26:48for the long-term vision, the worst.
00:26:50I think the media thing too, is more than just like what you guys write in the paper
00:26:54or what they say on the radio or whatever.
00:26:56It's the larger scale of things.
00:26:58Did Sunday night football come calling?
00:27:00Did Monday night football come calling?
00:27:01They were not a draw.
00:27:02I'd love to see the weekly ratings and compare it to even last year or the year before, because
00:27:08the game, the Miami game in Miami was maybe the worst Patriots game.
00:27:13I can remember where it was just, I left to bring my daughter to a birthday party in the
00:27:17second quarter.
00:27:18Cause I was like, I would like to watch this with a skip 30 button because of how painful
00:27:22it is to sit here.
00:27:23And I'm, I'm sure I'm not alone.
00:27:25Like there's this cultural change where things that were happening in the region on Sundays
00:27:31were not happening for 20 years.
00:27:33You know, schools are planning outings with their kids, like, you know, fairs or whatever,
00:27:39you know, whatever, three o'clock on Sunday, these things were never happening forever.
00:27:42And it's just, it's part of the Patriots.
00:27:44They're not falling out of favor or whatever, but they're not nearly as important to everyone
00:27:51as they used to be.
00:27:52And I think that is a factor too, where last year, I mean, it got made fun of a million
00:27:56times like the, the Sunday night promo Belichick versus Von Miller or whatever they did.
00:28:02But it's, it's, they didn't even have that.
00:28:04So I think it's like, yeah, you know, the, the daily coverage is going to reflect what
00:28:08they're doing on the field.
00:28:09But the fact that they've dropped into a sort of irrelevance, I think probably shocks them
00:28:14a little more.
00:28:15Yeah.
00:28:16I mean, my, my daughter has like a school pajama day on Sunday this year.
00:28:21And it's like, I feel like in the past they might've been like, ah, that might be a Patriots
00:28:25playoff game.
00:28:26Let's not plan that on a Sunday.
00:28:27And now, and like, obviously that's a small example, but you're, you're right.
00:28:31Like it does seem like interest was waning.
00:28:34We saw that for sure with the attendance in the last two weeks of the season and you were
00:28:40probably there, Michael.
00:28:41Yeah.
00:28:42Not you.
00:28:43You're not to blame.
00:28:44I paid 50 American dollars to sit on the 20 in the 22nd row, which is like 30 more than
00:28:48I wanted.
00:28:49But what are you going to do?
00:28:50Were you cheering or booing?
00:28:52I was observing Andrew.
00:28:54Um, I wanted to know, I wanted to get a vibe of, of what everyone was feeling in there.
00:28:59And you know what it was complete and utter indifference.
00:29:02It was just people hanging out with their friends and families and talking.
00:29:06And there was like these random football players doing random things.
00:29:10It really was like even the touchdown, Joe Milton did a backflip.
00:29:13I'm like, that was cool.
00:29:15And I don't know how many people were even watching.
00:29:16They were, it was, it was a sad scene.
00:29:18Yeah.
00:29:19So, I mean, I, I think that that obviously ownership is going to see that because if
00:29:24first of all, like they get the money anyway, because of season three, like the game was
00:29:28technically sold out.
00:29:29So they get the money anyway for that.
00:29:30But like concessions, merchandise, like when you go to a Patriots game, you don't see the
00:29:37jerseys of many current players.
00:29:39You see a lot of Jones with a piece of tape above it that says, or you see Brady or you
00:29:46see Edelman or you see Gronk, you see jerseys that were bought 10 years ago.
00:29:51So that's not money coming in for, for ownership as well.
00:29:54So I think like that, I guess it all plays into outside factors that would be like fans,
00:30:00media, all these things.
00:30:01But ultimately it is the product on the field.
00:30:03And like we were talking about earlier, I do think that winning that week one game was
00:30:07probably the worst thing that could have happened, but I mean, what's the alternative that they
00:30:11go three and 14 and one of their three wins is against backups.
00:30:16Like I'm still not sure if that cures the issue of, of Mayo getting fired at the end
00:30:20of the year.
00:30:21I think, I think if they lose that game.
00:30:22Let's flip that with not blowing a lead to Jacksonville when they were on the verge of
00:30:25firing their coach and like, maybe things progress a little more normally.
00:30:29I don't know.
00:30:30Yeah.
00:30:31Well, and what happened in between, or I should say what, what didn't happen in between is
00:30:34also the story of the season.
00:30:36Like it's one thing to regret regress.
00:30:38It's another to have a rookie head coach and defensive coordinator and offensive plate
00:30:41caller and GM.
00:30:42They didn't develop the rookie players on the field.
00:30:44Like Jalen Paul got two catches after that Jacksonville game.
00:30:48And we had someone we spoke to who pushed back against, well, they weren't that good.
00:30:51It's not that he wasn't developing.
00:30:52He just, he just wasn't as good as Kendrick Bourne and Keisha Mbuti.
00:30:55I'm like, that's not, it's not high bar to clear, but he did start week one.
00:30:59And so I think when you look at the state of the organization, it's not just saying,
00:31:03you know, as players told the world last year, you're 29th out of 32 ownership gets a D it's
00:31:08the worst weight room in the league.
00:31:09And as we know from talking to people, there are basically no sports science.
00:31:12There's no analytics.
00:31:13Like they need an upgrade here, but to paper over, carry them over in the meantime, this
00:31:17new facility supposedly coming in 2026, like get your players better, get better coaches
00:31:23to develop them.
00:31:24And that got to be an issue, obviously with the receivers in the offensive line, as we
00:31:27highlighted where veterans were complaining to me in the locker room, be like, man, we
00:31:31just need an offensive line.
00:31:33And then people in on staff are going, I don't know how our coaches aren't getting more out
00:31:38of these players because it's not that they're great, but they're good enough and they should
00:31:42have playing time.
00:31:43And they, they didn't earn it.
00:31:45I mean, one thing that I heard late in the season was that a complaint from the front
00:31:51office was that coaches were focusing too much on short-term.
00:31:57And I think that like the, the one big example was that DeMontre Jacobs was starting over
00:32:02kid and Wallace and week 18.
00:32:04But I think that you can also point to, let's say like Kendrick Bourne starting over Jalen
00:32:10Polk, like the Patriots wanted to win.
00:32:12They wanted to win.
00:32:13Obviously like we're focused too much on these short-term things where I do think that you
00:32:16probably could develop young players a little bit more by playing them when the opportunity
00:32:21is there and essentially benching Jalen Polk.
00:32:24Like he kind of barely played over the last, I don't know, four or five weeks of the season.
00:32:30That's obviously not going to help his confidence and help his development.
00:32:33And in the story, we had someone go to saying that, like, I think his frustration stem from
00:32:38not playing and not feeling like not knowing a way, a path onto the field.
00:32:44And you don't want to reward players for being bad or for complaining or being frustrated
00:32:48or anything like that.
00:32:49But like when you do draft a guy in the second round, you'd kind of like to know a little
00:32:53bit more about what you have by the end of the season.
00:32:55And I'm not trying to like make an excuse for the front office or Jalen Polk or anything
00:32:59like that.
00:33:00I do think that you got to make it work.
00:33:02Like whatever you're working with, you have to make it work better than it did.
00:33:05And it just didn't.
00:33:06And like people around, I've said this too many times at this point, but like Jalen Polk
00:33:10was a projected second round pick.
00:33:12It's not as if he was a six rounder who was taken in the second round, like people around
00:33:17the league like Jalen Polk.
00:33:20So why didn't it work?
00:33:21And then like, and I think that some of it is scouting.
00:33:24Some of it is, is drafting.
00:33:25Some of it is the front office.
00:33:27But I also do think that a large part of it is player development and not putting the
00:33:31players in position to develop as well.
00:33:34So Hurley, I'm going to ask you a question and then we got to take a break.
00:33:36But I think it's notable as we kind of like turn the page a little bit to Mike Grable.
00:33:41He's going to interview today.
00:33:42We're going to talk about their here in a second.
00:33:43Like you get full power over the organization.
00:33:46Robert watches this and goes, Hurley, like forget the guys who wrote that, F them.
00:33:50We look bad.
00:33:51You know better.
00:33:52And I want you to give me a to-do list for this organization to kind of get us up and
00:33:56out of here.
00:33:57And I think the starting point would be you let go of coaches who were probably gone soon
00:34:00enough.
00:34:01And some of them we identified.
00:34:02And it sucks.
00:34:03Tyler Hughes or Scott Peters or named defensive assistant didn't do a good enough job.
00:34:07Fire them.
00:34:08But that's the reality of the league.
00:34:10So if you get that call and the answer is how do we fix this before we get to talk to
00:34:14Mike Grable and he comes in with his own ideas?
00:34:17How do you get the organizational rot out of here?
00:34:19Michael Hurley, his answer after this break.
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00:35:14What time is it?
00:35:15Game time.
00:35:16Okay.
00:35:17Um, it's funny you mentioned before we, before I end, I like to do other stuff before I answer
00:35:22your questions.
00:35:23It's very intriguing.
00:35:24It keeps people on their toes.
00:35:25Um, but you mentioned like the assistance, they're not doing enough, Tyler Hughes being
00:35:28one of them.
00:35:29And I was thinking it speaks to the overall program when you're, when you get hyper focused
00:35:34on certain individual position coaches.
00:35:36Like if we think back, I mean you guys were all in intimately following, I don't know
00:35:41if that's too personal.
00:35:42You were closely following the Patriots during the second dynastic run.
00:35:44And there was guys like, you know, Josh Boyer and Chad O'Shea, guys that you knew had had
00:35:50roles, but you never were like, you know what?
00:35:53The Patriots are winning Super Bowls because of Chad O'Shea.
00:35:56It was just sort of part of Belichick's program.
00:35:59And I went back, I had to look up, do you guys know who the 2004 wide receivers coach
00:36:02was on the Patriots?
00:36:03Trivia time.
00:36:042004.
00:36:05No, I know in 2007 it was Nick Casario.
00:36:09I did have to look this up.
00:36:10So I'm not trying to play smart guy, but it was interesting.
00:36:13His name was Brian D'Abel and he was a young up and coming assistant who did that point.
00:36:18He had worked at William and Mary Michigan state and two years on defense.
00:36:21Uh, was he the tight ends coach too early?
00:36:23Cause I was going to say D'Abel and I was like, later on when he came back and like
00:36:29the teams, he was the tight ends coach when they started the second dynasty, but whatever.
00:36:33So I just feel like I agree, like, and we talked about Scott Peters more than I anticipated
00:36:38this year where you're like, I don't know what he's doing at practice, but I know that
00:36:42there aren't any results.
00:36:43And I know that there's not a lot of creativity, but anyways, when it comes to the organization
00:36:48and this stuck out to me with craft talking the other day is he feels, and I may be wrong.
00:36:54He feels a little, he feels married to Elliot Wolf.
00:36:57And to me, Elliot Wolf is someone when Belichick got, you know, when that ended last year,
00:37:04Elliot Wolf was there, you know, he was the guy that was there in macro who I didn't expect
00:37:09to stick.
00:37:10He's, he's still there.
00:37:11You know, and it's just kind of like, you need to establish a vision in a, in a culture
00:37:17of what you want in the way that's going to happen is with a great football mind to run
00:37:21it.
00:37:22And so now you're in a tricky spot where if the head coach has something else, it's not
00:37:27ideal.
00:37:28I just think you want a, a vision from a president of football operations that works hand in
00:37:34hand with the head coach and can move forward.
00:37:37Could that happen with Elliot Wolf and Mike Vrabel or whoever gets the head coach?
00:37:42Sure it could, but I just don't think it's ideal when you're just still sort of saying,
00:37:46well, he's, he's here.
00:37:47So we're going to keep him.
00:37:49I do think that there's room, like even with Elliot Wolf's title, I know other people have
00:37:53this up, but like, I do feel like there's room for, let's say like Vrabel to come in
00:37:59and be like, all right, but I want this guy to be my GM to then name that guy, like president
00:38:05of football operations, and then keep Elliot Wolf as executive vice president of probably
00:38:09a player personnel and like have someone come up over Wolf.
00:38:15And I don't know how Wolf would feel about that.
00:38:18Certainly would.
00:38:19Yeah.
00:38:20It would, it would cost some money, but I don't know.
00:38:21Wolf I would assume is also under a contract that the Patriots would have to pay him for
00:38:25regardless of what happens to him.
00:38:28So I don't know.
00:38:29I mean, that's immediately when this happened, when I reached out to someone about Wolf,
00:38:34it was like, yeah, let's see what happens.
00:38:35Like, let's see what happens when the head coach comes in, because like there, there
00:38:39was a feeling that like, this might not be the longterm thing for, for Wolf to be safe
00:38:44here.
00:38:45So I don't know what happens with it.
00:38:46I do think that there are like, there's, there's a lot of qualms to be had about how
00:38:51the Patriots handled the off season.
00:38:54And I do think it was smart to keep as much cap space as possible.
00:38:59But as I've mentioned recently, like even a lot of the re-signings have not panned out
00:39:05very well for the Patriots.
00:39:06Like you look at some of the guys that whose contracts haven't even kicked in yet, we got
00:39:11Ramondre Stevenson who had a bet, who's had two down years in a row now July to vice extension
00:39:17is not kicked in yet.
00:39:18That kicks in this year.
00:39:19And Devon Godshaw extension kicks in this year that has not kicked in yet.
00:39:23So like, those are three guys who maybe you wouldn't want to move on from this year because
00:39:29quite honestly, the Patriots need all of the NFL caliber players that they can get right
00:39:33now, but they're also not necessarily the players that you want to be tied to where
00:39:39like it's years down the line before you can even release them without get it with
00:39:44getting any cap savings.
00:39:45So at the time it was pretty much universally liked that the Patriots were extending all
00:39:52of their own guys.
00:39:54But even some of those guys like Duggar hasn't worked out drill peppers that had extenuating
00:39:58circumstances.
00:39:59The biggest extenuating circumstances obviously were Christian Barmore, but even the ones
00:40:03that were supposed to be the safest re-signings haven't panned out the way that I think the
00:40:09front office would have hoped that they did.
00:40:10Well, a couple of things on Wolf and someone who profiled him last spring and even heard
00:40:15more recently from executives who had worked with him or otherwise were around the league.
00:40:21There's a sense that I've gotten that he might be open to keeping the title, but essentially
00:40:25being demoted because at his heart, he's a scout like that.
00:40:29That's who he is more than I want to come in a room more than I want to be the face
00:40:33of this known for that.
00:40:34Like the man loves to evaluate football players, find good ones, put together a team, be part
00:40:38of a team.
00:40:39It's what he grew up in.
00:40:40That's what he wants to do.
00:40:41Is it something I would guarantee?
00:40:42No.
00:40:43But if I'm the Patriot, it's not out of a loyalty to Elliott Wolf or look at his resume
00:40:47over the last 11 months and be like, man, this was killer.
00:40:50It's just to say that I think that's a department in the front office, like the analytics staff,
00:40:55like the sports science staff, and probably the defensive staff coaching.
00:40:58You need more NFL caliber players, yes.
00:41:00You need more NFL caliber minds in there.
00:41:03This front office needs to build out.
00:41:04So I don't think a swap of whomever Mike Vrabel theoretically wants to bring in, just replace
00:41:09him.
00:41:10Keep a guy who's been in NFL front offices for two decades, who's been an assistant GM,
00:41:14who's got connections that filled out a coaching staff, a great one granted.
00:41:17But I don't think getting him out of there is some sort of net positive.
00:41:21Not to mention Doug, as you and I have talked before, the offensive line was a mess, a mistake,
00:41:26full stop in real time, calling them out.
00:41:28You need better players in this.
00:41:30The draft questionable, looks bad, disastrous around Drake May.
00:41:34I still don't think it's fair, like a quarterback and a head coach in most instances, to judge
00:41:37GM in one year, especially when the goal is not to win.
00:41:41So I would say whether he stays or goes, whatever his role is, that front office needs to build
00:41:46out in a way.
00:41:47And I think there's an opening to do that pending whatever Mike Vrabel says or doesn't
00:41:50say in his interview today and to ownership later on.
00:41:53Lad McConkie day though was a tough one for that day.
00:41:57The NFL network just loved putting it on the screen.
00:41:59Here's the trade.
00:42:00Here's what the Patriots got in that trade.
00:42:03Here's what Lad McConkie's done, but I don't know.
00:42:06I wasn't saying get rid of them just for the sake of getting rid of them, but I just think
00:42:09it speaks to sort of going with what's there.
00:42:13And that's what they did.
00:42:14And they need to plan something.
00:42:16And I just, I don't know.
00:42:17You don't have the freedom and time to do it right now that you might want otherwise.
00:42:22But I think there's less urgency than if they did get the number one pick, because that
00:42:27number one pick would be now the most important draft this franchise might ever have, where
00:42:31you're going to trade it and you need to nail it and you need to negotiate with guys
00:42:35that have done these things before and you haven't now at four, I think they're going
00:42:38to pick and move along.
00:42:41So you got to get the pick right, but it's much less intricate than had they needed to
00:42:44make that deal.
00:42:45For sure.
00:42:46Uh, we were talking about future of the franchise earlier.
00:42:48I just want to mention that I'm, I'm looking at the comments and we have multiple people
00:42:52saying that they want Joe Milton to be the starter over Drake may.
00:42:54So that's where we're at with the future of the franchise right now.
00:42:57Yeah.
00:42:58The kids are all right.
00:42:59They got Milton.
00:43:00They'll be fine.
00:43:02Hey, Robert Kraft.
00:43:03We got two quarterbacks.
00:43:04See, that's where I don't have any issue with that comment.
00:43:09And I think people who do pods, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I know you're not doing this,
00:43:14but it's happened.
00:43:15I'm like, give me a break.
00:43:18There was an amusing comment, clearly a joke for a guy who did not play any kind of snaps.
00:43:22If you are doing this big, Oh my God, how could Robert say this?
00:43:25Oh my God.
00:43:26Is he starting a controversy?
00:43:27Get the hell all the way out of here.
00:43:30And then it's directed at fellow media members.
00:43:31It's amusing comment and otherwise was a like tail between his legs press conference as
00:43:35he deserved.
00:43:36And they need to do a lot of upgrades.
00:43:38As we've talked about this whole podcast.
00:43:40Okay.
00:43:41Mike Rabel's interviewing today.
00:43:42It is still widely expected people around the league inside the team.
00:43:45He probably gets the job.
00:43:46A couple of key points.
00:43:49How much money does he want?
00:43:50How does he want to rearrange the front office?
00:43:52Is he willing to flex leverage and potential interest from Las Vegas where Tom Brady, I'm
00:43:55sure would love to hire his old pal because the Patriots have cleared the decks.
00:43:59They have satisfied the Rooney rule.
00:44:00They could do this as soon as they want, assuming they want to hire Mike Rabel and is it possible
00:44:05today?
00:44:06How much of that solves their problems?
00:44:09And what do you think the next 48 hours look like?
00:44:12I think it would be big.
00:44:14I think that people who compare Gerard Mayo to Mike Rabel, I think it's first of all,
00:44:21people who would just rather have an offensive minded head coach, which is fine to say in
00:44:24itself.
00:44:26I think that Rabel and Mayo are just such completely different personalities.
00:44:30And the experience is so different.
00:44:32The ability to bring in staff is so different.
00:44:36The ability to attract staff is so different that to boil it all down to, oh, these are
00:44:41two former Patriots linebackers.
00:44:46I don't want to use too strong of words, but it's silly, I would say.
00:44:49And it's probably in some cases in bad faith.
00:44:53So I think that as far as a culture change goes, the Patriots would endure a major culture
00:45:02change with Mike Rabel coming in.
00:45:05But I do still think the Patriots 100% need to go through this process and talk to other
00:45:10people and take those other interviews seriously.
00:45:13And I don't want to harp on it too much because everyone's already done a better job of me
00:45:17so far.
00:45:19But bringing in Byron Leftwich and Pep Hamilton and seemingly trying to skirt the Rooney rule
00:45:28obviously it was a bad book.
00:45:30And I didn't love the way they did that.
00:45:33I think even if they had just saved those interviews for next week, it would have looked
00:45:36a little bit better.
00:45:37And I would even say that people saying, oh, now that they've requested Aaron Glenn, it
00:45:41doesn't look as bad.
00:45:43I kind of disagree because I think it was Albert Brewer said this, they're trying to
00:45:47skip the line for Mike Rabel by doing this.
00:45:51And by being like, okay, well, we brought in two guys for in-person interviews.
00:45:53Now we can make the hire whenever we want.
00:45:56So it really is not taking the Rooney rule seriously.
00:45:59So I just want to get that out of the way while we're talking.
00:46:00Well, Aaron might not take that interview, by the way.
00:46:01Was it?
00:46:02Like last I heard last night, that wasn't on the books yet.
00:46:04So they might be too late.
00:46:05Glenn?
00:46:06Yeah, I think.
00:46:07Because he's so busy.
00:46:08Yeah, I think someone said that.
00:46:09And like, yeah, because he's been requested by six different people.
00:46:12And I was listening to Zoe and Bertrand today.
00:46:18And I think it was Bertrand who was saying that, like, it's a little odd for the Patriots
00:46:22to request Ben Johnson and then a few days later be like, oh, no, we're also requesting
00:46:29Aaron Glenn.
00:46:30Like if it had been, you know, it does feel a little bit like it was in reaction to what
00:46:36people were saying about Leftwich and Hamilton.
00:46:38And I don't want to insult Leftwich and Hamilton by saying that, like, they were only brought
00:46:43in for this reason, but like they're both out of the league and neither one of them
00:46:47has ever been higher than an offensive coordinator.
00:46:50That's another.
00:46:51I heard Bert on the radio today, and I even thought about it because they changed the
00:46:55interviewing rules.
00:46:56As we know, that's why Ben Johnson is a virtual thing.
00:46:58You can't interview a coach on any team until after the divisional round.
00:47:03So basically, to skirt the Rooney rule, you have to find someone who's out of football.
00:47:08Yes.
00:47:09And yeah, like they're like Rabel.
00:47:12Rabel is technically out of football because his contract expired.
00:47:14I don't know.
00:47:15Bill Belichick is technically out of football.
00:47:16But generally speaking, there aren't a ton of people out of football that you're going
00:47:22to be like.
00:47:23I identify him as a real head coaching candidate.
00:47:25So that's what I mean.
00:47:28Every year there's something about this that just sucks and is dehumanizing about the whole
00:47:32process.
00:47:33And I never have come up with the solution other than to say, man, that sucks for everybody
00:47:39involved.
00:47:40I will.
00:47:41I will say one more thing about this before we get off the topic.
00:47:44Is this now this kind of feels like it's like three straight years of this to some degree
00:47:48for the Patriots, because with the OC hire of Bill O'Brien, it seemed like Bill Belichick
00:47:53was just bringing in position coaches to see if they would want to join his staff like
00:47:57Adrian was one of those guys he was.
00:47:59So it was basically like bringing these guys that we want to see if they want to join the
00:48:02staff and then we'll bring in Bill O'Brien, we'll hire Bill O'Brien and see if these other
00:48:06guys want to join.
00:48:07Then last year, everyone knew that Elliott Wolfe was going to be the GM.
00:48:11And then they're like, they're like floundering to try to find people to bring in for interviews
00:48:16to try to fulfill the.
00:48:17So now this is like, it really does feel like this is three straight years of this.
00:48:20And that really is just a bad look.
00:48:24And obviously the crafts want to do what they want to do.
00:48:26And in 2022 or whoever it was, Bill or the crafts wanted to bring a Bill O'Brien and
00:48:31figure out the best way to do that.
00:48:33But I don't know.
00:48:35Every other team plays by the rules.
00:48:36And it seems like for the last three years, the Patriots haven't done.
00:48:38So I want to set aside the Rooney rule conversation and whether it's perfect or not or anything
00:48:44implications in there.
00:48:45It's not because I disagree with it.
00:48:47It's just, I think you can have a conversation about the Patriots process and be upset about
00:48:52other things than, oh, they're skipping the line or they're flat.
00:48:55The rules are there.
00:48:56You make them work for you.
00:48:57You don't abide by it.
00:48:58It's the attitude I would take.
00:49:00If you want to go get your guy, go get him.
00:49:01But in the process of doing this, they've hurt themselves in two ways.
00:49:04Separate again from optics, from anything, you know, diversity hiring practices related.
00:49:10Number one is when you conduct a search this way and you fire Gerard Mayo immediately after
00:49:15the game, don't bother to do it Monday.
00:49:17You signal to Mike Rabel a kind of desperation.
00:49:20And when you bring in those coaches on Tuesday to say, yeah, we're just checking boxes.
00:49:24We want to get this done.
00:49:25We want to do it quickly.
00:49:26You weaken your bargaining position, your negotiating stance with Mike Rabel, who is
00:49:30not the type of guy who, as Kraft has suffered from occasionally, to be blinded by sentiment.
00:49:36He's going to go in there.
00:49:37He's going to kick your ass.
00:49:38He's going to say, this is what I want.
00:49:39This is how we're going to do it.
00:49:40And you're going to like it or I'm going to walk.
00:49:42That's his type of approach.
00:49:44Number two, in addition to weakening your bargaining position, as they talk probably
00:49:47right now, is you decline the opportunity to gather intel on yourselves.
00:49:52How do good coaches from good organizations not only run themselves, tell us your secrets.
00:49:58What do you think of us?
00:49:59Because they don't have that outside perspective.
00:50:00Elliot Wolf was a personification of splitting the baby last year.
00:50:04The outsider, Green Bay Grone, who's actually now on the inside, will have a new system.
00:50:09That's great.
00:50:10He was still here.
00:50:11Okay.
00:50:12You don't have that perspective that any of the GM candidates would had they been interviewed
00:50:15in good faith or other head coaching candidates that you're declining to interview.
00:50:19So you're shutting the door to more information and perspective and an organization that needs
00:50:24it in the worst way, because this has been a mom and pop shop and franchise for 25 years.
00:50:29I just want to say real quick, it's actually four years in a row because Matt Patricia
00:50:33was the pseudo offensive coordinator that they didn't name offensive coordinator.
00:50:36So they never had to go through an interview process.
00:50:38So actually four years in a row.
00:50:39Just wanted to correct myself real quick.
00:50:41But he was super qualified though.
00:50:43So like that was, that would have been unnecessary to make him an interview.
00:50:45He also was a rocket scientist.
00:50:46This is not a Matt Patricia podcast.
00:50:47He also kept me up at night two nights ago thinking he still had the best offense here
00:50:52over the last three years.
00:50:53How did that happen?
00:50:56Let's not talk about that.
00:50:57You're also being an error, error repeater.
00:51:00If you do that, you mentioned Gerard Mayo.
00:51:01That was something that he had done poorly.
00:51:04You Robert Kraft multiple times said, I knew years ago, Gerard Mayo would be my head coach.
00:51:09And then sure enough, you, you send bill packing and you just implant Mayo in there.
00:51:13It didn't work.
00:51:15Vrabel's our guy.
00:51:17We want Vrabel.
00:51:18Go through the process.
00:51:19See, it's, it's, it's more, there's more out there than what you know.
00:51:23And there are people you've never met that could be very good at the job that might impress
00:51:28you.
00:51:29That might wow you.
00:51:30And Andrew, you mentioned it where, where Vrabel could go in and sort of have demands
00:51:32and like sort of play hardball.
00:51:34He might have legitimate questions that the group in front of him might not have the right
00:51:39answers to.
00:51:41And he might be like, all right, well, I got some other interviews I'm going to go.
00:51:45But he might not be in love with this just because it's new England.
00:51:48Like there's probably five legitimate concerns he's going to want to ask them about.
00:51:54And if they don't have good answers, he might not totally be it.
00:51:57He might, he might have a better time in Chicago or wherever else he might be interviewing.
00:52:01So I think that's another factor too, where it's like, if you put all your eggs in that
00:52:04basket and he turns you down, oof, yeah, then you might be scrambling.
00:52:09I do still think, so there's six jobs available right now.
00:52:13I do still think the Patriots are the most appealing of the bunch.
00:52:16And I think that you can debate back and forth between the Patriots and Bears.
00:52:19And this might just be me being like a new England or by saying this, by, by having Drake
00:52:23may $130 million in cap space, number four overall pick and the record that they had
00:52:30last year.
00:52:31And the, you know, I think you've got a serious chance to improve moving forward.
00:52:35I do think the Patriots are atop that list, but like Mike Vrabel interviewing with the
00:52:39week was certainly definitely very interesting because that is what I would put as probably
00:52:43the number two best job right now.
00:52:46Just having Caleb Williams and having a better roster than the Patriots have right now, maybe
00:52:50not the same level of draft capital or cap space, but they do have cap space.
00:52:53They do have draft capital and the Raiders thing is very interesting to me as well.
00:52:57And like, that's not necessarily the most appealing job for most people.
00:53:00I think most people would probably put the Jaguars as number three, but like just Tom
00:53:04Brady being the minority owner there, like he's got familiarity with Brady.
00:53:09I think Brady's probably going to be recruiting him hard if he really wants Vrabel.
00:53:11So that one's interesting to me too, where like, yeah, I think everyone does expect this
00:53:17job to be Vrabel's for it to be determined within the next four or five days, whatever
00:53:22it is.
00:53:23But I don't know.
00:53:24I don't know if it's a foregone conclusion.
00:53:25And like you guys were saying, there is a lot of questions that Vrabel would have to
00:53:28have.
00:53:30And I think also him coming in and being like, oh, well, everyone thinks that they want me
00:53:34to take this job.
00:53:36He can have like some very specific demands that then the Patriots would have to fulfill
00:53:40with him knowing like, yeah, I'm the front runner.
00:53:42I'm the guy that they want.
00:53:43I don't even know how seriously they're taking this process.
00:53:46And I'm really curious where the line is for the Crafts, if there's a line at all, because
00:53:50someone I talked to last night said, I'd expect this to go another 20, 48 hours at least,
00:53:56but we don't know how this conversation is going to go or if the Crafts desperation is
00:54:02as it looks.
00:54:03And in that case, it might be, here's a blank check.
00:54:06Sure, Elliott's gone.
00:54:07But where do they draw the line, if at all?
00:54:09Because if it is at Wolfe, you could argue whether that's a mistake or not, and it probably
00:54:12would be.
00:54:13I say, just give Mike Vrabel the keys, give him whatever he wants.
00:54:15Because you can say this too, like, oh, he's not a perfect coach.
00:54:18He's the best head coach in Canada on the market.
00:54:19Like the guy's got a winning record.
00:54:21He's got experience in this job.
00:54:22There will be no learning curve.
00:54:23He will be better than what you saw in Tennessee.
00:54:25And what you saw in Tennessee was pretty good, not just from a record standpoint, but the
00:54:28way he raised the floor.
00:54:29And you're not going to have issues like week 17, your defense going, our tackling
00:54:33is not so good.
00:54:34And we can't really fit the run.
00:54:36Like, what a bummer.
00:54:37No, no, no.
00:54:38It's not going to happen here.
00:54:39So you want the best head coaching candidate.
00:54:41It's just, I'm fascinated by the negotiation and how I think the Patriots have blown it
00:54:46to this point, at least publicly, and not even like, oh, these are bad PR optics.
00:54:50Like, no, the messages you sent to him, the way you've acted and gone about this, only
00:54:56emboldened a guy who doesn't need to be emboldened to try and get what he wants.
00:54:59And look, if he gets the job, which is what he wants, and they hire him, everyone's happier
00:55:03and we'll be better off for it, move forward, and then it's on to his staff, which is a
00:55:06big question mark.
00:55:07Because Drake May is in his second year, rookie contract, all that.
00:55:09They need to nail the OC hire almost as much as the head coaching hire.
00:55:14I will say at least it's not the Raiders situation, because I was thinking about Tom Brady and
00:55:19Bill Belichick.
00:55:20They have this conversation that was reported on yesterday.
00:55:23You know that neither guy had no reason to tell anyone about it.
00:55:28You know, they could have that.
00:55:29But you know, Mark Davis was like, hey, Tom Pellicero, guess what's going on here?
00:55:34Well, can you believe it?
00:55:36Bill and Brady.
00:55:37And it's just like, oh, my God.
00:55:38And then they had to walk it back like immediately.
00:55:40So I do think, can I bring up my red flag on Brable, which I know I've brought up.
00:55:46The year was 2020.
00:55:47The Titans were coming off an excellent season where Derrick Henry ascended to an otherworldly
00:55:52level.
00:55:53They beat the Patriots in the playoffs.
00:55:55They go to Kansas City.
00:55:56They probably should have won, but they blew it.
00:55:59They had an opportunity to bring in Tom Brady instead, presumably with a strong influence
00:56:06by the head coach.
00:56:07They said, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:56:08We want Ryan Tannehill.
00:56:10We're going to give him a new deal at 20.
00:56:12Tom Brady.
00:56:13We don't want him to throw to A.J. Brown and hand the ball to Derrick Henry.
00:56:16That's stupid.
00:56:18And do you know what?
00:56:19Lo and behold, it didn't work out.
00:56:22The offense got worse because Ryan Daniel, it wasn't very good.
00:56:26I know every team in the league did that, but that, to me, stood out like Brable.
00:56:31You know, Tom, you know what he can do to it.
00:56:33I think no matter, to a certain degree, no matter where Brady went that year, they were
00:56:38going to win.
00:56:40And the Titans were just as ready to win as the Bucks were.
00:56:42I mean, they may be more because they went to the playoffs.
00:56:45They were a good team.
00:56:46So I don't know his offensive philosophy, I guess, is what I'm getting at.
00:56:50I'm kind of joking, but also not because you went with Tannehill over Brady.
00:56:55And that, to me, I would need to understand why, other than Tannehill had a good year.
00:57:01I think that's fair.
00:57:02I think, fortunately, the Patriots don't have that decision to make this offseason, unless
00:57:08you think that he's going to be deciding between Drake May and Joe Milton, which, who knows?
00:57:12That's what the comments are saying.
00:57:15Non-zero chance, though, that the Crafts call Tom Brady and are like, hey, you want to come
00:57:18back just for a game?
00:57:19Like, we really need the win here, optically.
00:57:21Like, you're still losing, plenty pliable, week 18 next year.
00:57:24Come on, let's go.
00:57:25I think he could have three jobs.
00:57:26I think he could do Fox, he could be a Raiders minority owner, and then also the Patriots
00:57:30quarterback.
00:57:31I think, like, if he can handle two, he can handle, what's a third job, you know, really,
00:57:35in the grand scheme of things?
00:57:37But I will say, obviously, there's the concern of bringing in a defensive head coach and
00:57:43going through the offensive coordinator cycle.
00:57:47But Mike Vrabel did have a decent track record of hiring offensive coordinators during his
00:57:52time.
00:57:53Mike Miller, good offensive coordinator, gets hired by the Packers.
00:57:56Almost too good.
00:57:57Arthur Smith, good, decent offensive coordinator for the Titans.
00:58:01He gets hired away by the Falcons.
00:58:03Then when you're on your third choice, it doesn't go as well with Todd Downing.
00:58:07But I think that that does show, to some degree, that he's got, you know, a decent mind for
00:58:13what he wants in an offensive coordinator.
00:58:15We'll see what that means here.
00:58:17There's been the rumors about Josh McDaniels.
00:58:20Ultimately, though, like with this head coaching search, it does feel like maybe ownership
00:58:26sees that they need the highest floor candidate possible right now in order to get fans back,
00:58:33in order to get their franchise back in order.
00:58:36Like, I do think in some ways Ben Johnson might be the higher ceiling guy.
00:58:42But I also think that there's a much lower floor with him.
00:58:46And I know that there's a lot of conversation with Patriots fans about which one you want
00:58:49more.
00:58:50But I don't think you can really deny that Vrabel does bring that higher floor for the
00:58:55team this season.
00:58:57And honestly, like that, like the franchise wants to win a Super Bowl, but they also need
00:59:01to get fans back.
00:59:02They need to get fan support back.
00:59:03They need to get everything back in the building.
00:59:06And I think that that's one major thing that Vrabel would provide.
00:59:09Right where that 16 and 0 banner used to be, they can hang one next year that just says
00:59:13higher floor.
00:59:14And everyone would be like, yeah, we did it.
00:59:18Nine wins.
00:59:20Ben Johnson is going to interview.
00:59:22We expect it's been reported virtually on Friday.
00:59:26And then TBD after that, Penning and Ferenglen actually accepted it.
00:59:29Maybe it did since we've been talking.
00:59:30I have confirmed, by the way, that Ben Johnson will interview on Friday.
00:59:34Oh, good.
00:59:35There we go.
00:59:36So there's a plan.
00:59:37I still would choose Vrabel.
00:59:39I don't think Ben Johnson is some sort of consolation prize.
00:59:42It's just more of a mystery.
00:59:43And after going through a first year head coach and seeing all the pitfalls there, granted
00:59:48Jarrod Mayo is very different than Ben Johnson, who has more than twice the coaching experience
00:59:51in his entire life than Jarrod does.
00:59:53I just think you take the best guy available.
00:59:56And Josh McDaniels, it should be noted too, not a flight risk because no one is calling
01:00:00for him to come be their head coach anymore after the way things went with Denver.
01:00:05Another guy who's out of football, by the way.
01:00:07Yeah.
01:00:08Another guy who's out of football.
01:00:09Exactly.
01:00:10And I think the Crafts would welcome to come back.
01:00:11Let's end on this.
01:00:13You get one message that you get to deliver personally.
01:00:16Maybe Doug, you can do this.
01:00:18It could be to anyone in the organization based on what we heard, based on the coaching
01:00:22search.
01:00:23It could be Mike Vrabel.
01:00:24It could be Ben Johnson.
01:00:25Please take this advice.
01:00:26Who is that person?
01:00:28What is that advice?
01:00:30And if you've got any thoughts on how you think this will wrap up the next, I don't
01:00:33know, few days of the coaching search, feel free to drop those as well.
01:00:36Wow.
01:00:37You're really putting me on the spot here.
01:00:39We can go with early though.
01:00:40I'll go first with a quick one.
01:00:41Yeah, sure.
01:00:42Really quick.
01:00:43And it's a, what's it called?
01:00:44When you have a bias of recency bias.
01:00:46Yeah.
01:00:47I would go to Cole Strange.
01:00:48I'd be like, dude, when you snap in the shotgun, it's just a quick movement.
01:00:51You want the ball to just go in a straight line, not, not like a lollipop.
01:00:55So I would, I would, I didn't there.
01:00:57I'm going to coach.
01:00:58We did it.
01:00:59I, I mean, I guess it would be to ownership and just to take this job search seriously.
01:01:03Like, I know that that's a generic answer and it's one that we've already discussed,
01:01:07but like, I do think that as you're saying, Andrew, like you need to look at outside choices.
01:01:13You can't just always hire the guy that, you know, and ultimately we've made the case that
01:01:18like variable could very much still be the best option.
01:01:24But you also know at this point that other teams haven't accelerated through the Rooney
01:01:31rule by bringing in the, so like you do also have time, like you don't need to rush this
01:01:36so much because you actually are aware of what other teams are doing out there.
01:01:41So even if you have to wait a week or whatever it is to talk to Aaron Glenn, they might be
01:01:46too.
01:01:47I don't know how long it would be at this point, but like go through the process, talk
01:01:50to everyone, see what they have to say, see what their vision is, see if it, if it aligns
01:01:54with yours and then just make the best choice.
01:01:58My real answer, my real answer real quick.
01:02:00And it doesn't sound like, well, I mean, he should learn how to shotgun snap.
01:02:03That was ridiculous.
01:02:04Um, and it's, this was reported a month or so ago.
01:02:08I forget who did.
01:02:09I don't know if anyone's present.
01:02:10It was that the, the crafts were kind of calling around asking about how to nurture this offensive,
01:02:14uh, whiz kid and they have in Drake may.
01:02:17And I would say continue that because this league, you are nothing without that quarterback.
01:02:22If you have another dysfunctional season and that's why you mentioned Ben Johnson having
01:02:26more of a lower floor, like let's say Ben Johnson ends up being a great coach.
01:02:30He still could go three and 14 next year and it could create more sort of muck here that
01:02:35you don't want.
01:02:36Nurture that quarterback.
01:02:38Don't kowtow to him.
01:02:39I don't think he's a diva.
01:02:40He is like sort of like a, a one in a million shot where he has the talent and not the ego
01:02:45yet at least make sure that that's okay.
01:02:49Because if you screw it up again, I know Mack Jones had a lot to do with that himself, but
01:02:54if you go through another cycle, it's just, you're just constantly spinning your wheels.
01:02:57So I'm not saying coddle the kid, but like make sure it works with Drake may here.
01:03:03Michael, that just reminded me that you posted, someone got hit in the nuts in a college basketball
01:03:07game the other day.
01:03:08Yeah.
01:03:09It was a Duke player got hit.
01:03:11So I think it was just karmic retribution for all of the nut shots.
01:03:15Yeah.
01:03:16Single person was wild though.
01:03:17Not a single person shed a tear for that said said Duke player.
01:03:21Can we call it the Mac tap?
01:03:22Is it, is it, is it too far gone?
01:03:24Is it not relevant enough if we change it from the sack tap to the Mac tap?
01:03:27We never got the right angle on the Mac sack tap of sauce Gardner to like have it become
01:03:33a meme.
01:03:34You know, it just sort of, it was, there was too many bodies and arms and it's like, damn,
01:03:38we'll never get the full footage.
01:03:39So I don't know.
01:03:40It was, it was, um, I think he missed also in this one.
01:03:44I think he only got like a piece of the package.
01:03:47So it wasn't a full on, you sunk my battleship situation.
01:03:51That was beautifully put by you.
01:03:54That was, that was poetry on the pod.
01:03:57Look, I'm telling Mike Fable walk away today.
01:04:00You know, like if you, if you want to do this the right way, if you want to have your second
01:04:03shot at head coaching job and you know, you're probably going to get this, make those demands.
01:04:08Don't agree to anything right now.
01:04:10You know, they're desperate.
01:04:11Put the screws to the crafts a little bit.
01:04:12Like there needs to be fundamental elemental change for this organization.
01:04:18And that it's can be true as well as the fact that Gerard failed miserably this year as
01:04:22a head coach who was put in a no end situation.
01:04:25But if you don't want to fail, if you want to maximize whatever the future is, the Patriots
01:04:28need to catch up to the modern league and they're not there right now.
01:04:32So if you're Mike Vrabel, you can come in with those demands and maybe the acquiesce.
01:04:35Okay, great.
01:04:36Well, now I want more and I'm going to walk away and I'll let you know over the weekend
01:04:39that would be my message in these negotiations, which I just still just so fascinated by also
01:04:44self-esteem.
01:04:45Are you sure you're not just saying that because you don't want to write about a new head coach
01:04:48tonight?
01:04:49I was getting there at a bar and watch Penn state Notre Dame and just relax.
01:04:54Granted, I will have my backpack in case something happens and you and I need to go
01:04:57looking for our make calls, more texts, but it's been a long few days.
01:05:01If you haven't read the story, it's in the bostonherald.com Doug and I have tweeted about
01:05:04it and sent it out there.
01:05:05Everything you would want to know about the 2024 season, Gerard Mayo, culture stuff, crafts,
01:05:10everything is in there.
01:05:11Everything that we've learned and where can they find you guys for Pat's chat?
01:05:16Just go to Pat's chat.
01:05:17Just, just search Pat's chat.
01:05:18You'll find it.
01:05:19No, you too.
01:05:20I should have put my Twitter name in.
01:05:22What a clown.
01:05:23Yeah, I lost out bad.
01:05:26Um, Patriots fans can also watch Abdul Carter tonight, future Patriots pass rusher off the
01:05:31edge.
01:05:32No, that's big.
01:05:33Oh, there you go.
01:05:34Now you got your name in there.
01:05:35You're my bad.
01:05:36Um, but yeah, no, I had Doug caught on Twitter, uh, Pat's chat and then Andrew for Pat's chat
01:05:44listeners where people find Pat's interference.
01:05:47Yeah.
01:05:48Uh, YouTube, my Twitter, Spotify, Apple, and I don't know, like I've got a YouTube channel
01:05:54that I don't really do a whole lot with, but this podcast will be there too.
01:05:56So Pat's P A T S interference twice a week in the off season, Doug very often.
01:06:02So if you like this, um, you're going to love a lot more of that coming forward and early.
01:06:05We'll, we'll do this again.
01:06:06Yeah.
01:06:07Do you ever do it solo?
01:06:08Oh yeah.
01:06:09It's Monday nights and it's a lot of self-loathing.
01:06:12We have a segment where Andrew talks to himself and drinks alone just to get through some
01:06:15of the film.
01:06:16Cause it's like, I've done that before.
01:06:18It's got to like, yeah, you got to take a shower after and just pretend it never happened.
01:06:24It gets better.
01:06:25And this is not like any kind of suffering, but you really like at the end or just like,
01:06:30what did I just do?
01:06:31But granted, it's like you watch the film, write about it.
01:06:34You might as well share it, answer some mailbag questions and get in and out of there.
01:06:36But these are a lot more fun.
01:06:37Like I feel like you have to take a lot of pregnant pauses when you're, when you're doing
01:06:40it on your own, just leave a lot of space.
01:06:43You've got to do the John Oliver thing too, where like you're delivering real information
01:06:48in the monologue, but unless you just interject with some like toucan reference or some obscure
01:06:53thing that you say just to change the pace and keep it up with like your tone or the
01:06:56information.
01:06:57Yeah.
01:06:58Or you get a little parched and you're like, and now as you see, I'm going to take a sip
01:07:01of water.
01:07:02Yes, it's definitely always water.
01:07:06Now I can continue speaking.
01:07:07Yeah.
01:07:08No, solo hosting, a little bit different.
01:07:10All right.
01:07:11Thank you guys.
01:07:12For everyone who listened and watched, hope you enjoyed.
01:07:14Please give Pat's chat, five-star rating, reviews, everywhere you can find them.
01:07:18And Pat's interference, whatever you feel like.
01:07:20We earn what we get.
01:07:21See you guys.
01:07:22Transcribed by https://otter.ai