Joe Nicholson and Phil Smith assess Sunderland's squad ahead of the 2024/25 season
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00:00Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo. My name is
00:26Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writer at the Echo, Phil Smith.
00:32Phil, how's things? How's the summer going?
00:35Well, not great from a Sunderland perspective, is it? Obviously still somehow waiting for
00:42news on the new head coach after I think it's come up to 120 days, isn't it? But yeah, it's
00:49not been a great summer so far from a Sunderland perspective with pre-season only a couple
00:53of weeks away. And I think, like all fans really, I think we're just quite concerned,
00:57aren't we? That we still haven't had a resolution. But hopefully that's something that has to
01:03happen this week, surely, doesn't it? To allow a new candidate to have some time before pre-season
01:09actually begins. But we wait with bated breath on that one.
01:12Yeah, as you say there, at the time of recording, Sunderland are still looking for a new head
01:18coach. We're not going to be talking about that today because obviously that news and
01:23that conversation could age and date quite quickly. So what we're going to be doing
01:27today is we're going to be looking at Sunderland's current squad, the senior players who are
01:33under contract for the 2024-25 season. Of course, when a new head coach is appointed,
01:38we will be doing another podcast with full analysis of that and can discuss that appointment.
01:44But we're going to be looking at the senior squad today and we've gone through the list
01:48of the first team players listed on the club website. There are also a number of players
01:53coming back from loan spells at other clubs. So on this list, Sunderland have 29 players
02:00in total, which is quite a lot with the club looking to make new signings this summer as
02:06well. So we can probably also expect some exits. So we're going to break it down into each
02:11position, starting with goalkeepers, full-backs, centre-backs, central midfielders, wide players,
02:17attacking midfielders and forwards. So we'll start with the goalkeepers, Phil. The senior
02:23goalkeepers on Sunderland's books, Anthony Patterson, Nathan Bishop and also Alex Bass
02:29coming back from a good season on loan at AFC Wimbledon. We know there's been Premier League
02:35interest in Patterson. For me, it would still be a big surprise if he did leave this summer.
02:41He's under contract until 2028. Out of the other two, Bass and Bishop,
02:48probably expect at least one of them to leave in search of more senior football. Is that kind of
02:52what you'd expect if Patterson stays and then maybe promote one of the younger goalkeepers
02:56to third choice? Yeah, I think so. I wouldn't be surprised if both those players went,
03:02to be honest with you, Joe. I think certainly Bass has got one year left on his contract.
03:07Sunderland do, I think, have the option to trigger a third year, but I'd be surprised if
03:11they did that. I think, obviously, Bass has had a really good loan to his credit at AFC Wimbledon
03:16League 2. I think he's done well and they really like him. I imagine there'll be EFL interest in
03:22him this summer and I think it's probably time for him to make a permanent move, I think, because
03:27he's at an age where he'll want to play. I think he'll be aware as well that his stock's high,
03:31having had a decent season playing regularly. Not really sure what coming back to Sunderland,
03:36what purpose that would serve him at this stage in his career. And to be honest, I think it's
03:41probably a fairly similar situation with Nathan Bishop. I know he came to the club knowing that
03:46he was going to be behind Anthony Patterson in the pecking order. I think that was fairly obvious
03:50that he was coming in as a number two, if you like. But I still think he would have liked to
03:54have pushed a bit harder and had more football. I know he played the final game of the season
03:58against Sheffield Wednesday, which Mike Dodds said at the time was a chance to take a closer
04:03look at him. But I think even though we all knew Patterson was going to be number one, I think
04:06Bishop would have been a little bit disappointed because, of course, the reality of the FA Cup
04:10draw against Newcastle meant Patterson played. And I don't really get the sense at the moment
04:15that he's seen as a viable number one. And at the age he's at, similar to Bass, I imagine he'll want
04:20to go and play. The obvious caveat to that is that Sunderland aren't going to leave themselves
04:23without a back-up senior goalkeeper. So I could only see Bishop going if they felt comfortable
04:28that they were bringing in a sort of dependable back-up. So if you're asking me what I'd expect
04:33to happen, I think there's a good chance both of those will go and someone else will come in
04:37as that sort of support to Patterson, if you like. I don't see Patterson going at this point.
04:42You definitely can't rule it out because there is 100 per cent Premier League interest.
04:47Patterson has played, I'd be amazed if there's an English goalkeeper his age who's played as
04:51many AFL games as he has already at this stage in his career. He's obviously home-grown,
04:56which makes him even more attractive to those top clubs because of the home-grown quarters in
05:00their squads. But I think Patterson also understands that at the moment he's playing
05:05every week in the Championship and that's given his career a huge sort of boost, if you like.
05:11And I don't see him going to a Premier League club and just sitting on the bench.
05:15If it's a club where there's a really good development plan, he's going to play the Cups,
05:18he might play in European games, get the odds. Yeah, maybe, possibly. But he's under a very
05:23long-term contract. I think he's fairly happy. So I'd be amazed if Patterson went.
05:28And as you said, obviously one thing to watch, certainly over pre-season, will be how these
05:32young goalkeepers fare. Matty Young, I expect to go on loan, probably to League Two, maybe the
05:36National League next season. But we'll definitely see more of him pre-season because he's done
05:40outstandingly well at Darlington. So, yeah, my guess at this point would be two out, one in,
05:47and possibly a loan for one or two of the young goalkeepers. You've got Adam Richardson as well,
05:51who's another really talented young goalkeeper. So, yeah, I don't think it will be the most
05:55high-profile transfers in that position this summer, but I definitely expect at least two
06:00deals to happen at some point. Could you see Sunderland spending money on another
06:05second-choice goal? You're in the scenario that, as you mentioned there, Bishop and Bass potentially
06:09go. We saw last summer that Bass left out on loan, they brought in Bishop. But would Sunderland be
06:15willing to pay another fee or do you think that could be a loan? It's quite a difficult position
06:19to address, isn't it, second choice when you're coming in and you know Patterson's going to
06:22probably play every game. Yeah, for that reason, I think you almost rule out a loan, don't you,
06:28because it's very difficult to see what kind of player a loan would work for. I could see
06:34Sunderland paying a fee, but a fairly nominal one. I think I don't see Sunderland invested in
06:37a significant portion of the budget. I know there's been a debate among supporters, which I
06:42understand for a while, in terms of getting somebody in who can really challenge Patterson
06:46and chew and he doesn't get too comfortable. But the reality is he's one of the biggest assets in
06:50the squad and then they want him playing week in, week out. And goalkeepers, it's just not a
06:54position where you see a huge amount of rotation. There was a huge amount of debate at Arsenal,
06:58wasn't there, about Rear and Ramsdale and Arteta saying, I'm going to rotate. And it was blatantly
07:03obvious within a few weeks, wasn't it, that that wasn't actually going to be the case. So,
07:08I could see Sunderland paying a fee, yes, but a nominal one. I expect,
07:14there's some time we'll tell, but I expect it, to be honest, if someone comes in,
07:18to be someone in the mould of Basil Bishop, who's happy to work with Patterson for a period of time
07:24before maybe going off elsewhere to find more regular football. Or, theoretically, could it be
07:30someone at the later end of the career, with really good experience, who's happy to potentially get
07:35some cup games, but also be a bit of a mentor. That would be a possibility as well. So, I don't
07:40see them investing a significant amount in that position, no. I don't think so.
07:46Well, at least with Patterson, you've got someone there who kind of gives that stability there in
07:51quite an uncertain time at the minute with the head coach and with a lot of other areas that
07:54we're going to come on to address. At least, I think that gives that stability that you can
07:58play every game, hopefully, providing he stays injury-free. But we'll move on to the full-backs.
08:04Obviously, there are a few that can play at full-back and centre-back, but the players
08:09I've got listed down for full-back here are Dennis Sirkin, Timothy Pembele, Trae Hulme,
08:13Adjei Alisse and Niall Huggins. Now, obviously, Huggins, we don't expect to play again this year
08:19after that significant knee injury, unfortunately, for him. And it looks like having Alisse and
08:26Sirkin back, we've spoken about the left-back position on this podcast before, what an issue
08:31that's been. But hopefully, having two players there for the left-back spot and then having Hulme
08:36and Pembele in the right-back, it looks like Sunderland are in a decent position at full-back
08:39with two options for both right-back and left-back. Would you agree with that, Phil?
08:45Yeah, I would. It's a funny one. We talked about the left-back position loads as being a position
08:49of... Obviously, the striker, for obvious reasons, was the one that got most of the headlines and
08:53that sort of holding midfield position was the other. But left-back was a huge issue last season,
08:58but it was a strange one, wasn't it? Because we were looking at going, in theory, this is one of
09:01Sunderland's strongest positions. Because actually, in Sirkin and Alisse, you've got players who
09:05we all felt could actually be not just good Championship left-backs, but had the potential
09:10to be some of the best left-backs in the division. So, if all four of those players are fit,
09:16Pembele, I suppose, is the one with the biggest question marks over. Because ultimately, even
09:20though we saw some fairly promising signs from him towards the end of last season when he finally
09:24brought into the team, it was in quite a controlled environment, wasn't it? And obviously, Leeds are
09:29an excellent team, but he was playing at wing-back. You had Hulme inside of him, sort of
09:33marking Somerville 1v1. So, I still think Pembele is the one with the most question marks over. Will
09:40he be happy potentially being second fiddle to Hulme? If Sunderland don't trust him to play
09:45in a back four and that's the formation that the new head coach wants to play, is that going to
09:49squeeze his game time? That's the one where I can potentially see some movement. The other three,
09:54I think, are pretty rock-solid, even if there may be some Premier League interest in Trey Hulme.
09:58Sunderland are in a really strong position there. I'd be surprised if he went in this window. I
10:02think he's one of the few where you think another year could really see his value go up. A bit like
10:08what happened with Clark last year when we all said we felt it was a bit of a year too soon,
10:12probably. I think Hulme is one of the three or four in that category. And then it's just down to
10:16fitness, isn't it? It's certain in the Lycee, you know, when we saw Lycee came back at the end of
10:20last season, which was a huge boost. If they're fit and firing in pre-season, it's no problem.
10:25You know, you've got Leo Hielder who can cover there. I think he would like to push for centre
10:29half next season. But, you know, ultimately he's another option in that position. Those two are fit.
10:34You know, I think those positions are sewn up. But, you know, we have to say with a caveat that
10:39it's a bit of an if, isn't it? Because their injury record over the last 18 months has been really poor.
10:45I think that's an area as well, hopefully, like the goalkeeper position, where
10:48Sunderland can have a bit of stability there in terms of not having to make one signing
10:54as cover. But they've kind of got their options already sorted there.
10:57Try Hewman, I know there's been kind of reported Premier League interest in him,
11:00but he's come out and said that he's happy to stay at Sunderland. And as you said,
11:04probably another year probably suits him playing in the championship. And then if
11:07at least they can stay fit, Sunderland do look pretty okay in the fullback positions as well
11:13as the goalkeeper position as well. And certainly kind of, as we'll come on to later in the podcast,
11:17the priority seems to be further up the pitch. But moving on to centre back, and you mentioned
11:22Leo Yelda there as well. I've got him down as a centre back on this list because he has said that
11:27he prefers playing centre back. So we've got Luke O'Neill, Dan Ballard, Leo Yelda, Jenson Sealt,
11:34Nectaris Triantis, and Joe Anderson as well, who's come back from a loan spell at Shrewsbury. Now it
11:40looks like first choice is going to be O'Neill and Ballard. It was for much of last season.
11:47Do you see Sunderland looking to bring in another player to strengthen or do you think they will be
11:51happy with O'Neill and Ballard as a first choice pairing? We should also mention as well Jenson
11:56Sealt. Probably seems unlikely as well for him that he's going to play again this year as well,
12:00following that lengthy knee injury. So perhaps they could go for a bit of cover there as well
12:04as centre back. Yeah, I think they might need it. I think you're right. I think Sealt's injury is
12:10the big one, isn't it? Because I think to be honest, the impression I obviously everyone
12:14have their own opinions, but the impression I get internally is sometimes I think they see
12:18a Ballard and O'Neill partnership as one of the strengths last season. One of the
12:22things that worked pretty well. One of the things that I think they'd be quite happy
12:27taking into next season. That's not to say they want more competition. Yeah, so I don't think
12:35that's something that they're looking at going. Is that something where we need improvement?
12:38The question you raise is last year, you sort of had no, we're in an okay position,
12:42weren't you? And Sealt was fairly dependable. Obviously he was adjusting to the level,
12:46but by and large, when he came into the team, he did okay. And so I think that gives some security.
12:51I think at the moment, the other players, there's a huge amount of uncertainty over
12:56Joe Anderson. I think it would be time for a permanent move for him. I don't know what you
13:00think, but I think obviously he's had a decent loan at Shrewsbury, but he hasn't played every
13:04single week. And I think that makes it hard to see him pushing on it. Some of them can get on
13:09the first team, albeit you never know what will happen in pre-season. Treant has played mostly
13:13in midfield, from what I can gather, on loan at Hibbs. It's not to say he can't come back and
13:18compete at centre half. He did well in that Birmingham game, didn't he, when he had to play
13:22alongside Sealt when O9 and Ballard were suspended. But again, if Ballard or O9 was to get a relatively
13:29serious injury, is Treant ready to go in and play for, fingers crossed it doesn't happen,
13:34but for two, three months while the others recover? I'm not 100% sure. I guess the big
13:39unknown in this position is Yelder. As we talked about there, I don't think he made a fantastic
13:46first impression on fans in terms of his first few months at the club. I thought he started okay
13:49and then struggled. But as we've said all along, he was very clear with you, wasn't he Joe, when
13:54you first interviewed him that he saw himself as a centre half first and then maybe a full-back
13:58sort of his cover. So I guess in pre-season there's going to be a focus on him. I know there's
14:04certainly some people within Sunderland who agree that they think he's a centre half first and very
14:08much a full-back second. So will they be looking in pre-season to look at him in training, look at
14:13him in games and see what he can actually do in that position? We'll have to wait and see.
14:18Alise is obviously an option at centre half. I think if you've got Serkin and Alise fit,
14:23is there an argument that you could get both in the team, whether it be with a back three or a back
14:27four? There definitely is. So I'm a little bit, I'm not sure about this one, which is because
14:32there's a number of players who can play in that position. I'm tempted to say it's not a priority.
14:37I don't think it is, especially when 0-9 and Ballard, in my opinion, did pretty well.
14:41But I think there are so many uncertainties over the players who aren't 0-9 and Ballard
14:46that I think if they brought in some competition, brought in another player, especially with
14:51seal's injury, I think that would be a little bit of a relief for everyone. So I think it's going to
14:54be really interesting to see how that one develops. But my suspicion is, at this stage sitting right
14:59here, is that they might have a look at those players in pre-season. Yelder, Triantis, Anderson,
15:04probably to a lesser extent, see how they're developing and then maybe make a decision from
15:10there. So definitely not one that stands out to me as a priority, albeit I think in every position
15:15you're always going to see a little bit of movement in any transfer window. I think like
15:20the goalkeeper position, it's difficult to look at the profile of player you're bringing in,
15:24because if you've got Luko Ney and Dan Ballard are your first choice pairing, similar to Patterson
15:29in goal, then are you going to attract a top Championship centre-half to come in when you
15:34know that them two are going to be the first pairing? So it's probably going to have to be
15:37another younger player. You've already invested in Triantis, in Yelder, who are younger players.
15:43So yeah, I think you're right. I think we'll have a look at those players a bit more in pre-season.
15:48I think you're right with Joe Anderson. I think it's quite clear that he's probably not going to
15:51get a look in at this stage when he came in the season before, last season. Suddenly we're
15:56desperately short of the back and he still wasn't getting any game time. I know he's
16:00now had another year to develop, but seems quite far away from the first team. So I think probably
16:04a permanent move away for him. And again, he's a player that he's at an age where he
16:08will want to be playing regularly, don't he? So I think with him, probably a move away would
16:13suit him. Triantis, potentially another loan move. Yelder, I think will be kind of seen as
16:18the back-up, won't he, to Ballard and O-9. But a difficult area to predict with Alisse potentially
16:25could come in at centre-back, as you said as well. So we'll probably get a much more clearer
16:29picture after pre-season. And as we've seen in the past, you can have it all planned out. You can
16:34have O-9 and Ballard paired as your kind of first choice centre-back pairing. And then one of them
16:39could get injured in the first few weeks. We saw it with Ballard two seasons back, didn't we? He
16:43was kind of Sunderland's big centre-back signing, expected him to play every game and then he got
16:47injured. I think it was the third game and then he was out for four months. So it can change quite
16:51quickly. And an injury like that can change your transfer plan. So that'll be one to watch in
16:57pre-season. But hopefully with O-9 and Ballard, Sunderland do have a settled pairing there.
17:03We'll move on to central midfield, which I think has been an area where Sunderland have looked
17:08quite light for a while. We've got Dan Neal, Pierre Ecouart, we've got Jay Matete coming
17:13back from a loan spell at Oxford. I've put Elliot Embleton in this position as well,
17:19although he can play further forward. And Chris Rigg as well, although we've seen him play
17:23further forward, particularly at the end of last season. There's Joe Bellingham as well,
17:27can play in central midfield. Sunderland also have an option to sign Callum Styles on a permanent
17:33deal, although at the minute he is still a Barnsley player and he can play in central
17:38midfield as well. So I think we saw last season, Phil, didn't we? Neal and Ecouart was the first
17:43choice pairing. But behind that, Sunderland didn't seem to have that depth in central midfield,
17:49didn't seem to have a natural hold in midfield. Now we've seen Corey Evans move on.
17:55So it's probably an area where you would expect to see Sunderland strengthen this summer, isn't it?
18:01For me, it's a massive priority, I think, off the back of Evans leaving. Right now,
18:07I think you would be concerned if Neal and Ecouart were the first choice
18:12central midfield partnership again at the start of next season. It's not really a slight on either
18:16player. It was just the evidence of last season was that the balance wasn't quite right.
18:21Neither of those players looked at their best in that more holding midfield role.
18:26And when both of them were sort of pushing forward, Sunderland were very exposed on the counter.
18:31So for me, I think it's the balance needs readdressing and it's not a slight on Neal
18:35and Ecouart. I thought Ecouart had an indifferent year last year, but I think sometimes he gets a
18:41little bit lost that it was still his first full season of senior professional football. I think
18:45it's easy to forget that he actually hadn't played a senior game when he arrived at Sunderland only
18:50six months earlier. At that stage of the career and at that level of an experience, players,
18:54especially young players, are going to have big dips and they're going to have moments where
18:59they really kick on, especially in that part of the pitch. So I'm not writing Ecouart off by any
19:04stretch of the imagination. Maybe a break in the pre-season will be really good for him and we'll
19:07see him back to his best. But I just think that blend wasn't right last season. There are obviously
19:13some uncertainties at the moment over Dan Neal in terms of, I think everybody knows, he's obviously
19:18in contract talks with the club. He's got two years left, so he's in the same boat as Jack Clark and
19:23he's knocked back the initial offer. It's probably not panic stations on that front yet because I
19:29think there's a scenario at Sunderland, you know, touch wood, everything else, get a good head
19:33coaching, you know, ahead of pre-season. I think Neal still has ambitions to take Sunderland back
19:39to the Premier League and I think he would like to stay as long as everything's sort of right and
19:43the level of ambitions there. I'd be very worried if Neal went because I thought he was one of, if
19:48not Sunderland's most dependable performer last season. Obviously Clark took the headlines for
19:51what he did and rightly so. But I thought Neal was outstanding and for me, you know, he's one
19:56of the few players in the squad who you can absolutely now depend on a certain level of
20:00consistency from. So I think he has to stay but I think someone has to come in who can, who's
20:08played a lot of Championship football, who's got experience, who is comfortable protecting the
20:14back four as Evans was, who can move the ball forwards quickly into those players who then
20:19have that little bit of magic. I think for me it's, you know, we'll go on to strikers and what
20:24have you later. For me a proper experienced centre midfielder is absolutely top of my list. I think
20:29it's vital for Sunderland next season and then hopefully, you know, there may be the odd game
20:34where you don't need that holding midfielder and you can play Neal and Ekwer and they can both
20:39push forward and turn and sort of show off their best skills on the ball and breaking into the box.
20:45But I think for me, I think it's absolutely vital and I think getting that player will, over the
20:51course of the season, increase your chances of getting the best out of Neal and Ekwer as well.
20:58What do you think about some of the other players that I mentioned before? Jay Matete,
21:01Elliott Embleton, both coming back obviously from quite, well, they've had a lot of bad luck
21:06with injuries, both of them, haven't they? I think Embleton's got a year left on his contract,
21:11Matete I think has got two years left on his contract. Is it just a case of we'll see how
21:15they go in pre-season and then potentially loan them out again for six months or where do you
21:20kind of see those two and their situations? Yeah, exactly that I think. I think that Matete
21:27one is, again, I think there's another player who for me is not a holding midfielder. I think
21:36from what we've seen of him, he's best when he can get in the opposition's faces, he can press
21:40high up the pitch, he's a really good dribbler, he's really good at sort of twisting away from
21:44players and carrying the ball 20, 30 yards, getting into the box, maybe winning you a free
21:48kick in a dangerous area. I don't see him as the answer to that holding midfield player.
21:53That to me means he's got fairly significant competition with Neil, Ekwer, maybe anybody else
21:58who comes in and so I think he's got the talent but we just don't know what level of fitness he's
22:04going to be at. Embleton, for me, a huge asset to any squad because he can play in five or six
22:09different positions and you know he can do a good job in it and he's also got a goal in him,
22:13you know, and especially from what we saw last season, some and any player who you feel has
22:17definitely got a goal in them and can get in the box and get decent areas is going to be hugely
22:21valuable. At the moment, because they've played so little football, it's hard to see them being
22:26sort of first team, strong, starting XI contenders and so at that point you're sitting here now
22:32thinking, yeah, there's got to be a possibility of a loan, you know, with a view to seeing what
22:36the situation is in January or even a permanent exit. I don't think that could be ruled out in
22:39either scenario. However, there's loads of players and we're going to go on, especially in the
22:44attacking midfield and wide players last season, who there is huge uncertainty over, have shown
22:49flashes of talent but haven't quite delivered on it yet and so I absolutely think, you know, there's
22:55a possibility for either of those players, if they're fully fit, that they can force their way
22:58in pre-season. Albeit right now, you know, I think there's big question marks over where
23:04they're going to be at with their fitness after so long away from football. The other thing with
23:08Mateta is obviously the rigged conundrum, isn't it? Because if I'm right in saying that, I don't really
23:13see Mateta as a holding midfielder, if someone had also seen it that way. If Chris Rigg is to stay,
23:18and obviously we don't know whether that's going to be the case. For me, that's another player in
23:21front of Mateta, potentially, in terms of I think they'll be operating in a similar position in the
23:26pitch. So, I think there's huge uncertainty over both of those two players' futures. But I also
23:32think that, especially in Edmonton's case, I think, I think that fully fit, I think, is a place for them
23:38in the squad. So, that's a little bit like what we talked about with Centre-Half. I think they're
23:42two players where we'll have a much stronger sense of that, probably after the trip to Spain, when
23:46Sunderland have played sort of three or four games. I think we'll have a much better sense
23:50of their futures then. Yeah, I don't know if I mentioned Chris Rigg there on the list of players
23:55we read out for central midfielders, because he played as, he played on the right, didn't he,
23:59towards the end of last season. He's also played more centrally as like a number 10. He has played
24:04in central midfield as well, but it looks like he's set to be part of the first-team squad now.
24:08Obviously, as you mentioned with his kind of contract situation, that he can't sign a
24:12professional deal until his 17th birthday. So, Sunderland would hope that they can agree
24:17a professional contract with him. But, I'm assuming now you see him part of the first-team
24:21squad and a player that will be pushing for significant minutes in the upcoming campaign,
24:26assuming that he stays at Sunderland. Yeah, I definitely think if he stays,
24:31it'll be because there is going to be playing opportunities for him. My gut tells me whether
24:37we'll see him back on the right wing next season, I think is unlikely. I think it's going to be a
24:42big pre-season for Patrick Roberts and I still think he's kind of the one really where I think
24:46he'll probably have the chance to start the season. Rigg, I don't see playing his light in
24:51a midfield two yet. I think that's ultimately probably where we'll end up. But, I think at
24:56the moment, that's a huge responsibility for someone who'll be 17 at the start of the season.
25:00So, I see Rigg when he's used as being one of the players behind the straighter,
25:05whether that's coming off the flank or playing more as that sort of really high energy number 10.
25:10So, I don't at the moment see him as part of that sort of midfield blend, if you like,
25:16even though I think that's going to be his long-term position and potentially he could
25:19go and play for England there or whatever. I think next season, I think we'll see a lot of him,
25:23but I think it'll still be in really attacking positions where he'll have the license to really
25:29go and press the opposition, show that energy and try and get into the box. I think we'll see
25:35less of him on the right wing than we did in the final weeks of last season, but I do think if he
25:40plays, it will be very much as an attacking midfielder rather than as a central midfielder.
25:46We'll move on to those attacking positions and quite a lot of
25:50options really, but as you say, a few kind of players that you could say with a point to prove
25:54maybe. In terms of some of those options in wide areas, the list I've got here, Jack Clark,
25:59Patrick Roberts, Abdullah Barre, Romain Mundell and Dewis and Bennett as well,
26:03coming back from a loan spell at Greek side, Aris FC. I suppose in terms of Sunderland needing
26:10to strengthen, a lot is going to depend on Jack Clark and it seems probably likely for a while
26:15that he's going to move on this summer after multiple bids over the last two transfer windows
26:21and that would leave a big void to fill, wouldn't it, Phil, with those other players,
26:26for any of them to step up and score the goals that Jack Clark has, 15 championship goals last
26:30season? That's going to be a big ask if Clark does leave this summer.
26:36I think it's probably the position on the pitch where there is the most uncertainty for me
26:41and what I mean by that is you've got a large number of players, Sunderland are not short of
26:46players in the wide areas, but there are huge question marks over pretty much everyone going
26:50into this pre-season period. So all of those players at some point have been outstanding or
26:56shown flashes of real potential. I thought Barr started last season really strongly but then had
27:02a really difficult second half of the season and again, huge question marks of what his best
27:08position is. Is he ready to be a starter in the championship side that's pushing for the top six?
27:13Pirate Roberts, the end of the previous season under Tony Mowbray was exceptional.
27:18I actually thought he started this season okay, but when he had those injuries over the festive
27:22period it seemed to really knock his progress and if we're honest he was nowhere near as
27:27best in the final weeks of the campaign. Romain Mundell, incredibly early days, there's no way
27:32you could judge him on what we've seen so far. I thought there were times where you could see he's
27:37got some really good attributes, scored a good goal didn't he at Southampton, but again we haven't
27:41seen consistent performances from him just because he hasn't had that game time yet and he's been
27:47adjusting to his new role. Clark is the one who you can hang your hat on but it still feels
27:53most likely that he will leave this summer because he's got two years left on his contract as I
27:58mentioned earlier with Neil. The difference with Clark to Neil is with Neil I think realistically
28:04there is a chance that the gaps that exist at the moment could be bridged. With Clark,
28:09those negotiations have been on off for the best part of a year now and there's been no sign that
28:16the bridge is going to be gapped and that means that Sunderland are probably in a position where
28:21this window is going to be the one where they can recoup a huge fee for Clark. Every window moving
28:25forward now, that valuation is going to go down isn't it? So I think that ultimately this is a
28:32position where Sunderland don't need bodies in terms of they've got a lot of players but there
28:39is I think a great amount of uncertainty on this position and as you mentioned what happens with
28:44Clark is going to have a huge knock-on effect because I don't think at the moment we've seen
28:47enough from the other players to suggest that they're ready to step up and take some of that
28:51burden. So for me if Clark goes I think Sunderland will have to go back into the market and I think
28:56they'll have to get some level of proven experience and that potentially means that you're squeezing
29:02the game time of Dewis and Bennetts, an obvious one, Barr potentially moving forward could be
29:08another one if Roberts has a good pre-season. So I think this is one where there's going to be loads
29:13of moving parts moving through the pre-season period. I actually envisage quite a bit of transfer
29:18movement in this position but at the moment it's very difficult to predict who it's going to
29:24actually be. This is a position where there's a lot to play for in pre-season because I think right
29:29now if we assume that Clark's going to go I think both positions are up for grabs and I think anybody
29:35could potentially put their hand up and take them. But for me you know Sunderland's succession plan
29:40is to try and get players ready for when a big player leaves so they don't have to go out and
29:44spend you know they've already got that option in the building. I don't see that right now with Clark.
29:49Yeah it's just a big step up isn't it for someone like Amundel who came in in January as you say
29:54very early days for him to kind of come into Clark's position and then he's not really a
30:00direct replacement for Clark but he's taking Clark's position but you can't expect him to be
30:03scoring 15 goals the way that Clark did last season so that's very difficult for him. Do you think
30:09as you say a lot to play for in pre-season but kind of when those slots are settled potentially
30:14one or two strikers or one or two wingers come in to fill those positions that then maybe another
30:19loan move could happen for a Bennett or Amundel or someone like that. The players that perhaps
30:25they're not going to get as much first team football and that becomes clear towards the end
30:28of the window maybe another loan move because they've signed quite long-term contracts as well
30:31these young players. Yeah yeah because my gut is with some like the other players we've talked
30:37about like Johannes or something that you know with Bennett if you're not going to get in the
30:41first team then you know how long do you keep going out and loan for which point do you look
30:44for a permanent move but the thing is you forget how young Bennett still is if he was a homegrown
30:49player you wouldn't be worried at all would you really you'd just be looking at going when he came
30:53into the team showed some promise and as quite often happens he's sort of you know now trying
30:58to find that consistency. The difference with Bennett is obviously how will he feel personally
31:04about the potentially not being a first team player will he want to go back on loan again?
31:08We know that his international career is something that is incredibly important to him something that
31:12really drives him he wants to be in the Costa Rica squad and I think after a really difficult
31:17loan in Greece albeit one that was impacted by injury not just by form you know will he be willing
31:24to to go back on loan again or will if he's not going to play for something regularly this season
31:28will he be looking at and going well I need to to move somewhere where I can sort of find a home
31:33and settle and sort of really boost my international prospects which are at risk probably
31:37falling a little bit by the wayside so my gut is that if you know if Clarke goes and someone
31:42strengthen again then yeah Bennett and Mundell would be two contenders potentially for a loan
31:47but you know I think the one caveat with that is that is that what either player is actually
31:52looking for at this stage of their career I'm not so sure so Mundell I think it would make sense to
31:57keep in the building because I think ultimately you've brought someone in who you think can make
32:02an impact there will be opportunities from the bench there will be the cup games where you think
32:07he'd be nailed on the start and then you can sort of have a good look at him in a competitive
32:11environment and hopefully he'll really show quick progress because obviously he's a player with huge
32:16pedigree and then you can look at whether he's ready to sort of become more of a regular starter
32:20so Bennett is probably the one that I see the most question marks over even though as you've
32:24rightly said he's got a lot of years in his contract he's still very young Barr is potentially
32:29the other one really because Barr is the one where I think he'll be expected now to play regularly
32:34we've seen that he's definitely got the promise to do that at Sunderland his goal output has been
32:40in terms of goals and assists has been okay at times but if Roberts recaptures his very best form
32:46which let's hope he does during pre-season then I think it's you you wonder how regularly Barr's
32:51going to get in the team will he be happy with that at this stage of his career I'm not so sure
32:56so yeah I mean I really do think I do think both of these positions are all to play for in pre-season
33:01I think it's going to be one of the most interesting things to watch as those games start
33:06things we mentioned earlier as well the other one Embleton is potentially could come into one of
33:09those positions he's started on the left of course in the in the playoff final with four of all those
33:13those injury setbacks he's a player who can use both feet very well and if he has a good pre-season
33:18perhaps he could break into the side but half of the year he's had with the injury setbacks
33:23it's going to obviously be challenging for him to come back and find the level he he was at but
33:27hopefully he can can do that and I suppose the other one is Tom Watson I suppose fans might be
33:32wondering about him as well still only 17 so still very raw had a very good season for the under 21
33:37side but speaking to Graeme Murthy the under 21's boss full of praise for Tom Watson but he was kind
33:43of when I spoke to him last season was kind of suggesting there's still a long way to go before
33:47he kind of breaks into the first team and kind of does what Chris Rigg has been doing recently so I
33:52expect with him he's still probably be regularly playing for the under 21's and kind of just be
33:57kind of getting more exposure in the first team perhaps he'll be on the bench a couple of times
34:02now you can name more substitutes you can name nine substitutes now so I'd expect that'll be
34:06kind of the case with with Tom Watson next season because as we've said he's still only 17 so still
34:12incredibly young but moving on to the kind of attacking midfield positions
34:18assuming kind of Sunderland play with the 4-2-3-1 as they did last season when the new coach comes
34:23in it could be completely different they could play a different system but in terms of options
34:27in that number 10 position I've only got written down Adelo Shish, Joe Bellingham, potentially
34:33Elliott Embleton could play in there as well but certainly since January when Alex Pritchard left
34:38I think that was an area where Sunderland didn't bring in a replacement for him one of the most
34:43creative attacking midfield players Bradley Deck I know that he only made I think he only made 12
34:48appearances in the championship for Sunderland but that's another experienced player coming out
34:53of the squad so I think potentially as well Phil that's another area where Sunderland do look quite
34:58light depending on where Bellingham kind of plays but it's it's another area I think where potentially
35:03we could see another signing come in in that role. Yeah I agree for me Bellingham is the key
35:10conundrum in this position this is obviously the position he started in last season and he sort of
35:15got dragged around out of because of other issues in the squad the striker issues he obviously ended
35:23up playing a little bit deeper didn't he because of some issues in that position at times.
35:29Bellingham for me right now my guess would be that he'll come back and play this position
35:34I think he's obviously got an eye for goal he's good on the ball he's got huge athleticism which
35:40means he can sort of go from box to box my gut is that right now they'll be viewing Bellingham as
35:46playing in this position I think because of his goal threat but there's a couple of obviously big
35:51ifs there we know that there's genuine interest in Bellingham this summer Crystal Palace are one
35:56of the teams have a strong interest in him do I see him going this summer no I don't I think he's
36:01another year I think the championship then week in week out is obviously the best thing for him
36:05I think someone know that if he plays another year his value could really explode and so I
36:10think they'd be reluctant to sell him now because I think they'd feel that although
36:13they'd make a huge profit on what they paid last summer they could potentially get a lot
36:16more from down the line so I don't see it happening but we can't rule it out because
36:19the Premier League is the Premier League and there's always a chance one of those clubs will
36:23put in a bid that's very difficult to turn down if I'm right that I think Bellingham will come
36:28back and get a real run in this position it probably doesn't become a huge priority because
36:32I think Aushish should promise at times he's another one on a very long-term contract I think
36:37someone would be loathed to let go of at this stage I think if next summer you know he hasn't
36:42been playing regularly or even if January you don't feel he's any further forward then definitely
36:47you can look at making a switch but Dodds invested quite a lot of time in Aushish in the second half
36:52of last season and I think although we didn't get the goals and assists you would have liked to see
36:57at times there was promise and I like Aushish's work rate that's what makes me think he's got
37:00a real chance of making it at Sunderland he is obviously a technical player he'll try things on
37:04the ball but I never actually felt that his work rate was an issue and I think that gives him a
37:10chance so I think in theory I'm happy-ish with Bellingham, Aushish and Rigg hopefully sort of
37:16crashing in as the kind of joker in the pack in this position a young player who could really
37:21kick on maybe and put a real marker down in this position but that depends on Sunderland's sort of
37:27striker situation because right now you know I know everyone will have their opinions but when
37:31we're talking about the current players contracted to the club right now for next season for me Job's
37:36still the best striker and that that means that this position there's definitely some weaknesses
37:41because I don't think you can guarantee that Aushish is going to give you what you need
37:44over a 46 game championship season at this point so if Sunderland sort their striker situation out
37:52I'm a little bit less concerned about this position because I do think with a break
37:55with a full season of championship football under his belt I think Joe Bellingham could be
37:59a pretty effective player in this position and I definitely think Aushish has promise, Rigg obviously
38:04has promise and I think this will be his probably the position where we see him most so this is one
38:09where throwing it a little bit forward I think the striker situation holds holds the key to this
38:14position. We'll quickly come on to the striker situation there and three strikers contracted to
38:23the club for next season Nasri, Roosin, Hamir and Eliza Mayenda coming back from a loan spell
38:30at Hibernium. Out of the three that Sunderland signed last summer obviously they signed Mason
38:35Burstow on loan as well who will go back to Chelsea and I'd be extremely surprised if that
38:40deal was revisited just didn't work out for him at Sunderland but Roosin was the one out of the
38:45four that showed the most promise obviously a little bit older as well obviously there were
38:50that kind of the kind of challenges that he faced coming over from Ukraine there was the language
38:55barrier and but he did kind of show kind of glimpses of that he could kind of do it at
38:59championship level. The other two I think I thought Mayenda showed again in flashes I thought he was
39:04very raw but it looked like he had something about him. Hamir I think I think he struggled
39:09and didn't look up to kind of making the impact at championship level so out of those three I
39:15think probably Roosin you're looking at being a part of the first team squad next season
39:19possibly the other two could they go back out on loan again or could Mayenda go back out on loan?
39:24Hamir I think looks like he needs a loan move because Sunderland have given him a long-term
39:27contract invested some money on him but it doesn't look like he was up to the championship level so
39:33potentially loans for those two and then clearly Sunderland I think need to bring at least one
39:37this summer possibly two new strikers would you agree with that Phil?
39:42Yeah 100% I thought that Mayenda loan was a really strange decision at the end of January
39:47it completely contradicted what Michael Bale had told us about a week before where he said
39:51Hamir maybe would be one for a loan but with Mayenda it made sense to keep him in the building
39:56so you know he could keep learning the language so he could keep adjusting the environment. Mayenda's
40:01so young I think he's a little bit like Bennett you can actually forget how young he really is.
40:06I really like Mayenda I thought he looked really exciting when I saw him but obviously he looked
40:12like the inexperienced player that he is. I would be tempted to keep him around the building to do
40:18exactly what Sunderland said they were going to do for the second half of last season
40:23to allow him to acclimatise to the area to get to know the coaching staff to get to know his
40:26teammates to sort of settle that's what I would do whether that happens whether he goes back on
40:31loan we'll wait and see. What I would say is that I don't see him as a centre forward next season if
40:36I think if he plays he'll be an impact player from the wide areas I think you can see that
40:40he's going to be a real threat running behind from the left cutting in from the left onto that
40:44left foot which we've seen he's got a huge amount of power in. I remember that one goal he nearly
40:48scored didn't he where he came off the bench where I can't remember who it was against but
40:55yeah yeah could well have been and so I think there's definitely a lot to work with with Mayenda
41:00but I think maybe in the interim it'll be from the wide areas rather than up front and maybe
41:05a little bit like Rigue where we're talking about how he's going to develop into a position
41:09and he develops into his best position over a period of time I think Mayenda is probably similar.
41:14Mia for me unless there's a huge improvement at the start of pre-season which you can never
41:18rule out I think he has to go back out on loan because I think he needs to rebuild his confidence
41:23and I think he needs to build his match sharpness as you say someone invested in him last summer
41:27gave him a long-term contract I think it's way too early to cut their losses because they obviously
41:31saw something into investing him however I think at the moment it takes a huge stretch to think
41:37that he's going to suddenly transform into a championship ready striker I think I would look
41:41to maybe loan him possibly abroad somewhere where he can rebuild his confidence where he's going to
41:46get regular minutes and play a lot of football and that clearly that leaves you with Rooson and that
41:52means that you need yeah two strikers I would say I would be looking at using the loan market I think
41:57that's the easiest way to solve this issue because you can invest more money but not necessarily be
42:03tied to a long-term contract so if you're worried about bringing in a player of a certain age and
42:07you're worried about tying them to a long-term contract that could drain your resources I think
42:12a loan is probably the best way around that albeit you know that competition is going to be fierce
42:16for those players. Rooson I know you know Mike Dodds spoke very openly at the end of last season
42:20didn't he saying that someone to expect more from him last year and they think we'll get more from
42:24him you know his personal situation is much improved in that you know his language has
42:28improved and he has his family with him now he's had time to settle into the area and you know
42:33he's definitely someone who if you can you know the language is improving and you can understand
42:38the press and better can understand the system better we saw that his pressing his athleticism
42:43his work which was really really good last year and so that definitely gives him a chance so
42:48yeah I think someone need two strikers I think you should probably look to use the loan market
42:54better than they did last season I would like to see Mienda stay around for the year but I don't
42:58see him as a starting contender for the centre forward role I think he'll be an impact player
43:02from wide areas maybe occasionally up front with a partner but I would definitely right now I think
43:09him is the one way I would you know unless someone came in with a really good bid I'd be looking to
43:14loan him out for you go and play your football go and rebuild your confidence and we'll sort of see
43:18where we are in a year's time and yeah and like I say if someone can get those strikers in I think
43:24that eases other positions a little bit because presuming Job stays which I think you know right
43:29now I would guess that he will then I think that frees him up to play a little bit deeper which I
43:34suspect is is probably going to be his position but yeah I saw a lot of promise from Job up front
43:39at times I thought that performance at Cardiff was outstanding he wasn't at that level every time
43:43he played there but there's definitely something there and and this is why you know hopefully by
43:49the time most people listen to this there is a new head coach and so this doesn't seem like
43:52much of an issue but that's where it's really important that the head coach isn't seen because
43:57there's these big decisions I know obviously things will evolve over the course of pre-season
44:01and you'll see how players do but these are conversations that need to be happening soon
44:06where is Job going to play because as we've just discussed over the last five minutes that has
44:10huge implications on the transfer business that you need to do so yeah it's a huge amount of
44:16moving parts but you know I think I do think two strikers minimum is going to be what happens
44:22has to have has to happen this summer maybe Emiya or somebody else goes out on loan first and then
44:27that gives you the freedom to bring someone else in but if that didn't happen going into the start
44:31of the season I'd be very concerned indeed. I suppose with loans the challenge in there is that
44:38the players you're looking to sign on loan potentially from Premier League clubs are not
44:41going to let players go we've seen in the past don't tend to let players go until later in the
44:46window so potentially you're going to be looking at towards the season will have already started
44:50when Sunderland are going to the better players are going to be made available on loan are going
44:55to start becoming available we saw last season as you mentioned Sunderland probably didn't make the
44:59most of the loan market as they had done the previous season it didn't work out for Mason
45:04Burstow but what sort of profile striker do you think they could bring in do you think it could
45:08be another young player like someone like Burstow or we saw in January that there was interest in
45:14Kiefer Moore a more experienced striker that can come in and was a proven championship goal
45:19scorer where do you think Sunderland will be be looking could it be one loan one permanent
45:23kind of how do you see that playing out in the strike situation? Yeah potentially I don't think
45:28they can take a chance on another inexperienced loanee I know that the point is always made by
45:32Sunderland and rightly so that a man had come off the back of a pool loan at Rangers but he was a
45:37player who played a fair amount of senior football you know he'd broken through Atlanta that is why
45:42he'd got that move to Manchester United I know he hadn't played hundreds of games but you know
45:46there was a certain level of stature and experience there and I think we saw last season
45:50that you know even though he had a huge reputation in youth football and maybe he'll go and have a
45:54fantastic career you know Burstow didn't have that experience that he needed for the championship I
46:00don't think Sunderland can afford to take that risk again if they bring in an experienced player
46:05and I'm you know someone who has that sort of championship pedigree or pedigree from another
46:10league in Europe and is ready to hit the ground running a little bit more then that does give
46:14them the freedom to maybe go and invest in a younger player on a permanent the key is is that
46:20you aren't exposing those players too soon and too regularly that was the issue last season wasn't it
46:25and we saw that some of those players you know Burstow was one of them and maybe probably to
46:29an extent as well that when the pressure was on you know that confidence ebbed away quickly maybe
46:34if one of them had got an early goal it would have been really different but you definitely
46:38need somebody who can carry the the the mental burden really of being Sunderland's sort of number
46:45one striker if you like because it is a there's a tricky challenge not easy to do you know we
46:51say it all the time Sunderland are not the only club that have issues with strikers most if you
46:56listen to all of the pods that championship clubs are doing they will all pretty much I reckon be
47:02saying that they want and need an experienced striker with a you know proven track record
47:06there's a reason why it's difficult to do but you know I think from what we saw in last season
47:10it's vital and I don't think Sunderland can afford to take more chances and they've already got sort
47:16of a stock of young strikers now to develop over time I think they need someone to take over the
47:22kind of the main burden in the interim period if they can't afford to do that on a permanent basis
47:27and it has to be the loan then and so be it but as you rightly say it's not as easy as going out
47:32and getting that deal done now so yeah it's going to be really interesting to see how that develops
47:38yeah definitely a lot of moving parts that can can happen over the summer but just to
47:43finish off Phil just to summarize two biggest priorities for you this transfer window central
47:47midfield and up front yeah 100% I would go as far as to say by quite a long distance actually
47:55as we sort of hopefully sort of pick through as well when we're going through those positions
48:00the wide areas is one where I'm really interested to see how that develops because I do think that
48:05could become a priority if Clark goes but sitting right now with the players under contract I put
48:11the striker and the holder midfielder if you like certainly experienced centre midfielder
48:15is the two major priorities that's the two big big warning lights for me off the back of this
48:21past season and going into the new one yeah definitely a lot of decisions to be made at
48:27sundown over the next few weeks and months with the head coach situation as we said at the start
48:31we will be doing another podcast with full analysis when that is announced we've got news on that
48:38in the meantime do leave us a review and subscribe to the raw podcast on youtube spotify or wherever
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48:52thanks a lot for listening to the raw podcast