Phil and James' 23-24 season review (so far) after Sunderland beat Birmingham
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00:35 Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:40 James and Phil here to discuss Sunderland's win against Birmingham City at the Stadium of Light,
00:46 but we're also going to give you our season review so far. We'll come on to that. We're heading into
00:51 an international break though, Phil, and I haven't actually asked you this yet, but is the football
00:55 manager career developing now the 2024 game's out? How's that going? Yes, it is, yeah. So I'm at
01:01 Atherton Stanley. We won the League Two title in our first year, won the Pizza Cup in our second
01:09 year, and we've just won League One in our third year. So I'm a match to the Premier League as
01:13 well in Truvia Underway. I'm loving it, to be fair. It's a great addition this year.
01:17 Can you manage Sunderland or is it too close to home for you?
01:20 No, no, because it feels a bit too much like work and also I feel bad if I drop myself there or
01:30 something. So, yeah, no, I can't do it. I get no joy from managing Sunderland, unfortunately.
01:36 See, I can't manage anybody else until I have completed Sunderland and restored them to their
01:44 former glories in the English First Division and have had them win a Champions League. I can't do
01:48 anything else until I've done that and I'm miles off that at the moment. It is. The good thing
01:53 about Sunderland is it is fun at the moment, isn't it? You've got all the young players and stuff.
01:58 It's a good football. Even for the neutrals, I imagine Sunderland would be a good save.
02:02 But, yeah, that's probably enough football manager chat. There'll be a lot of people
02:05 absolutely... Rolling their eyes.
02:06 Right, Birmingham City. Sunderland went 1-0 up, then there was an equaliser and then Sunderland
02:14 ended up winning 3-1. A bit of a shaky sort of 20 minutes in the first half, but Sunderland
02:20 rallied. There was lots of disruption before the match as well with Surgun pulling out with an
02:25 injury. Nectar, Treantis and Jenson Sealed both coming in for their first starts in the Championship.
02:31 Less than ideal situation, but Sunderland coped well, I thought, by the end of the game and an
02:37 important three points on the board, Phil. Yeah, it was a really good win when you put it into
02:41 context, like you say. I think if you'd said, because of 09 and Bard's suspension, I think if
02:47 you'd said to any Sunderland fan before the game, it might not be convincing, but you'll get the
02:52 three points. I think you would have snapped the hand off for it because to lose your two centre
02:58 halves is a big thing. And then to lose, because we all thought Surgun was going to come in and
03:02 that gave us some comfort because we know how good a player he is. So, to then lose Surgun a couple
03:06 of minutes before kick-off, you would have said before the game, just get the job done. So, it was
03:12 a big win for Sunderland that they did that. A really good game and a really interesting game
03:16 because it was just completely unlike what we're used to seeing at the Stadium of Light.
03:20 Wayne Rooney's obviously been appointed and been told that he has to implement this
03:24 no-fear, front-foot approach. That's the reason why the sack, John used to say, even though the
03:29 results were pretty good. But of course, what we've seen is that's not the way to play against
03:34 the Sunderland side because if you leave them space and it becomes a basketball game, more often
03:39 than not, Sunderland will come out on top. And even though Birmingham threatened throughout and could
03:43 have scored more goals, you always felt that no matter how many goals ended up going in,
03:47 Sunderland were always going to come out on the right side. How many teams leave Jack Clark,
03:51 how much space at the Stadium of Light? Very few. And even though it's painful...
03:55 It was insane, the amount of space he had at times.
03:58 Yeah, it was borderline crazy. And I sort of respected it and enjoyed it. But Rooney spoke
04:03 well. He's a very good talker and a very interesting fella. After the game, and I think
04:08 he'll get some good results there because I liked a lot of what they saw. But unfortunately for us,
04:13 to go and watch Sunderland supporters and journalists and what have you, there's a reason
04:16 why teams come and take time out of the game to defend the nice space for the wingers. Because
04:22 unfortunately, it's the best way to play against Sunderland. And so I wish every game at the Stadium
04:27 of Light was like that. But it ain't going to be the case because we saw, ultimately, I think we saw
04:33 why more teams don't do that. But I don't want to sound like I'm taking away from Sunderland
04:40 because especially with the disruption in defence, it was a really important win and a really good
04:45 win because Birmingham have got good players and they will take points off teams this season. So,
04:50 yeah, always nice to win before the international break and I think especially go back into the
04:55 playoffs. Because if you think that this block of fixtures started with the Stoke defeat,
05:00 off the back of the Middlesbrough defeat, it felt like a bit of momentum had lost. So I think a lot
05:04 of credit to Mo Bria and the players. They've really steadied the ship and ultimately they're
05:10 where they need to be right now.
05:12 We'll quickly whiz through a few talking points from the game. What did you make of Sunderland's
05:18 centre-back pairing of Silt and Trentis? Obviously Trentis, a late addition to the side. Silt was
05:23 expecting to play with Sergen, they'll have trained for that scenario all week. I thought,
05:29 to be honest, that they grew into the game in the second half. It was by no means a perfect
05:34 performance from either of them. You could tell that both were sort of learning on the job.
05:39 But it was a bizarre game in a sense that I felt like Sunderland's midfield of Neal and Ekwer
05:44 gave the ball away fairly often and that caused a little bit of pressure on Sunderland's centre-back
05:49 sometimes, which ultimately they did deal okay with in the end. But it sort of felt like that
05:55 centre-back to midfield combination was a little bit disjointed, as you'd expect maybe.
06:01 Didn't really have somebody bringing the ball out like a Lugo 9 and that caused a few issues in
06:06 that little gap between.
06:09 Yeah, definitely. I think it was disjointed at times and you could tell that that natural
06:13 link-up that's developed between O9 and Neal, O9 and Ekwer and Ballard was disjointed. I think
06:19 partially that may have been why Birmingham decided to take the approach that they did as
06:24 well. I think they would have played like that anyway, but maybe Rooney sensing that possible
06:27 disruption was doubly aggressive and saying there might be opportunities here. I actually thought
06:32 Silt and Trentis, you saw from both of them, there's quality there, especially in possession.
06:37 Silt played a couple of gorgeous big switches and immediately you can go, okay, this guy can
06:41 handle the ball, this guy's going to fit in this team. Where he probably struggled was that sometimes
06:47 he thought he had a second more than he actually had. I think that's fair to say. And that's just
06:51 a process, isn't it? Ideally, you would never, ever want to put them both in the team together
06:58 for their debuts for that exact reason that they're both going through that learning process.
07:02 And Mo Bray was speaking to us afterwards, wasn't he, and saying that Silt,
07:05 he is obviously centre-half, but when Ballard and O9 are both fit and available,
07:10 there's a chance Silt will play a little bit and hold the midfield, maybe a right-back and roll
07:15 into midfield, as Hulme does. And I think you can definitely see that, can't you? You can definitely
07:19 see that he's got a lot of calm on the ball. He's willing to be brave. Listen, I don't think there's
07:24 any doubt it's going to be O9 and Ballard for the plenum of the wait, isn't it, on the 25th of
07:27 November? They're clearly, at this point in their careers, further ahead. But that was a big game
07:32 for both of them because I think next time there's an injury or a suspension, we won't be talking
07:36 about playing players sort of half out of position. I think Mo Bray knows he can trust those guys now
07:41 and that's really good for them. Other end of the pitch, Roosen looked really impressive,
07:46 worked really hard, gets the assist for the first goal and hits the outside of the post as well.
07:53 It's great to see a striker sort of claiming that space but, at the same volition, it's so sort of
08:00 infuriating is the wrong word, but frustrating because we just want a striker to sort of take
08:05 hold at the Stadium of Light and catch fire. He has to a degree but we just want that goal, don't we?
08:10 Yeah, and I thought Meander and Berstow both looked excellent when they came on as well.
08:16 They did. Berstow, unlucky double score.
08:18 Yeah, it was interesting seeing Berstow was a lot more involved attacking-wise, playing out wide.
08:23 And I wonder if that's something that Mo Bray will sort of go away and take forward because
08:27 maybe that's when he's going to be his most destructive at this stage in his career when
08:30 he's not fighting to centre-ask his back to goal. I wonder if Mo Bray will kind of think about that
08:36 in terms of, 'alright, maybe I'll let somebody else do that part of the job and see if we get
08:40 a bit more out of Berstow in terms of in front of goal.' Meander looked really exciting, didn't he?
08:45 You don't want to get carried away from five, ten minutes but, my word, he didn't half-strike
08:49 that ball powerfully. It hit Ruddy in the face. I don't think Ruddy knew anything about it.
08:53 Yeah, I think there's a lot at stake but I suppose the other side of it is it reinforces as well what
09:00 we said for a while, which is that these strikers all benefit from open games and there's a lot of
09:05 space. And we saw that again and it was such a different task to what we saw at Swansea when we
09:11 were all a bit frustrated when it's all about finding that half-yard in the box. So, I do think
09:16 it was a game that suited some of those strikers but, hopefully, there were definitely good signs
09:22 and I think, yeah, Roosan has definitely secured his place for after the international break for
09:27 a little while longer, hasn't he? I think he did more than enough in the game. Obviously, he got
09:30 the assist didn't he for Job's goal. Yeah, I think there was more than enough to warrant persisting
09:36 with him for a little while longer after the international break. I think he did really well
09:40 and he deserves at least another start or two. Absolutely pleasing signs from Roosan. Obviously,
09:45 Maendo coming on for a pretty impressive cameo as well. That was a little mini review of the
09:51 Birmingham City matchup and now we're going to look at a sort of season review so far. We're
09:57 about a quarter into the season now, second international break, so we're going to run
10:01 through the following categories. We're going to go through our highlight of the season,
10:04 then our biggest frustration, our favourite goal, our player of the season so far, our young player
10:11 of the season so far, a player who we want to see more of and our overall mark for the season so
10:17 far out of 10. Phil, we will start with you, which is the highlight of Sunderland's season so far.
10:23 Yeah, I think this is a pretty simple one. It's Southampton's home, isn't it? I think,
10:30 not just to beat a team of that stature, to beat them so comfortably, but I think the manner of so
10:37 many different aspects of the performance, and if I'm thinking specifically, it had already been a
10:42 pretty much perfect afternoon and then with a minute or two left on the clock, Bennett does
10:48 sort of three pirouettes, sticks his absolutely inch-perfect cross onto Chris Riggs' head and
10:53 the 16-year-old scores his first ever Championship goal. That was just one of those ways you go,
11:00 'This is a ridiculous day. This is a real pinch-yourself moment.' I think it was massive
11:05 for the team as well in terms of obviously the season started with two okay performances,
11:11 but two defeats. Off the back of what we talked about being a little bit of an unsettling summer
11:16 with some of the transfer stuff, with not an amazing pre-season, and I think Sunderland did
11:21 well after those first two defeats to steady the ship, and I think Southampton was the game
11:26 where it then felt like it was going into another gear and you started to think, 'You actually know
11:30 what? Yeah, we have got a playoff contender here. We have got a side here.' It is developing its
11:35 identity without Stewart, without Ahmad. There's plenty here and that was a really great afternoon.
11:42 That Southampton game as well, Phil, was the first after the transfer window had shut
11:47 and there'd been questions on social media from various outlets about Jack Clarke's attitude and
11:54 also there'd been the questions over Roberts. Southampton had bid for him, Stewart had left
11:57 for Southampton, so in the context of that as well, to turn in that performance, it was a real
12:01 sort of marker, wasn't it? Yeah, and that's kind of what I mean about it being the moment of which
12:06 I think we moved on from the summer and some of the difficulties from it. They are so right to
12:13 bring up that Clarke example he scored in the first minute, didn't he? That little header,
12:18 big celebration which, whether or not it is actually true, felt really pointed, felt really,
12:25 you know, 'It's okay, I'm happy here. I like playing for this team.' Maybe it wasn't that,
12:31 maybe it was just how he scored a goal, but I think we all felt that, right? We all felt that
12:34 it was kind of the team moving forward. It's not all been playing sailing since then, by any
12:40 stretch of the imagination. Of course, one aspect of it as well is someone clearly caught Southampton
12:44 at a good moment. They look a lot stronger now, their results have improved, their defensive
12:50 records have improved considerably. So, that's obviously part of it. But yeah, I think that was
12:54 the day in which we left some of that summer concern behind us and it felt like we'd moved
12:59 into a little bit of a new era. So, yeah, that's definitely the one that sticks out for me.
13:04 See, I knew you were going to go for the low-hanging fruit, so I've had to get creative
13:08 here. I'm sort of rewriting the rulebook on what the highlight is really, but I thought I'd go a
13:14 bit left field, throw you a bit of a curveball. But the Leicester City performance off the back
13:18 of two defeats to go there, top of the league. I felt watching that game at that moment that,
13:26 right, okay, I believe in this team still and I believe in Tony Mulberry's coaching ability still
13:30 as well because they were superb. Arguably should have got something out of the game. Arguably
13:34 could have got something out of the game had the referee awarded a penalty. We seem to be getting
13:39 sort of iffy refereeing decisions every week at that point and still are to a degree. But yeah,
13:44 similar actually in a way to Middlesbrough last season where things didn't go Sunderland's way at
13:49 all, but they just kept on plugging away and kept on working and kept on trying to play.
13:54 And it's that attitude when things aren't going so well for Sunderland that really shines through,
14:00 I think, whereas in previous seasons in League 1 and the Premier League, we've seen Sunderland
14:05 fold like a deck of cards at the first sight of any obscurity. Yeah, I like that. It's a really
14:10 good, sharp game. And I think I said this at the time, the game that reminded me a lot of was
14:14 Fulham away in the FA Cup earlier this year where Sunderland, I think it was a 1-1 draw in the end,
14:20 wasn't it? Someone might correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, in that game, Sunderland could have lost
14:23 Paterson, made some fantastic saves. But generally speaking, Sunderland went toe-to-toe and more than
14:28 held their own and not doing it by putting 10 men behind the ball and defending for their lives and
14:33 hoping for the best by being really aggressive. And the players and the staff spoke about that
14:37 Fulham game a lot in the final months of the season, about how it gave them that belief that
14:41 they could go anywhere, impose their style and get a result. And I think I said this at the time,
14:46 the wins at West Bromaway, for example, last year, I think a lot of that was rooted in that
14:50 Fulham game. And I say that because hopefully the Leicester game has a similar impact this season,
14:54 because you're absolutely right. Leicester could have got another couple of goals, but Sunderland
14:58 absolutely could have got something out of that game. And I think as a team and individually,
15:01 they could all come away and say, you know what, if people are talking about those players as
15:06 Premier League players and players with big futures, then we should be in that bracket as
15:10 well. So, yeah, it's a really good shout. I enjoyed that game so much, the whole occasion.
15:14 Leicester's a great stadium to go to, real Premier League feel, and there was a real
15:17 Premier League feel about the game. So, yeah, I'm fully behind you on that shout.
15:22 So, moving on, biggest frustration. I've got a few contenders for this.
15:27 Not winning against 10-man Swansea still feels a little bit raw, because I feel like Sunderland
15:32 could have got something from that game. The Strikers have been frustrating, but that seems
15:36 to be sort of ironing itself out now. I mean, refereeing decisions this season, Phil, really
15:41 feel like they've gone against Sunderland, but the Middlesbrough game stands out as a big
15:45 frustration, losing that 4-0, but Dan Neil being sent off for descent. And to keep things on
15:50 current affairs, Bakuna not getting a yellow card for Birmingham City against Sunderland,
15:55 and Patrick Roberts at the weekend just was completely baffling. So, there's a lot to go
15:59 off of. Yeah, I think I agree with the referee. I don't really like talking about refereeing,
16:04 but there is a massive inconsistency this year. I'm not talking about big decisions. Big decisions
16:11 can go against you off the ready. I don't think, to be fair, referees is not something we generally
16:15 talk about on this podcast, but they have cropped up this year. I think there's an inconsistency
16:20 about how things are being applied that is really frustrating. And it's not a sudden thing either.
16:25 So, you mentioned Bakuna. Bakuna makes three fouls that are exactly, to me, the same level
16:31 of severity and cynicism as Charlie Pitino's two the week before. Charlie Pitino gets two
16:37 yellow cards and is sent off. Bakuna makes three and doesn't even get a yellow card.
16:41 And it's just... And then also the descent. Some weeks we see very, very minor descents,
16:46 getting an immediate yellow card. Other weeks we see outrageous descents just go totally unpunished.
16:52 Sometimes you get a yellow card for kicking the ball away. Sometimes players don't get a yellow
16:56 card even though they clearly kicked the ball away. It's not free kicks being taken short.
16:58 The time wasting stuff sometimes. That's unfortunate.
17:00 It's just... It's total inconsistency. That's what the frustration has been this year. I'm
17:06 not going into confidence or incompetence because referees are human. It's a fast-paced game.
17:11 Big decisions will sometimes go your way and sometimes won't go your way. It's not about that.
17:15 It's about the fact that we seem to have got completely confused on certain elements.
17:19 And that is the most frustrating part for me. I'm going to chuck in another couple of frustrations.
17:26 Cardiff at home because that felt like a terrible flashback to last season.
17:29 Fair play. Cardiff are a good side. They're doing really well this year.
17:34 But they weren't very good on that day. They're loads better than them. But couldn't break them
17:39 down. Picked off by a set-piece. That felt like so many games last year. Thankfully,
17:43 and the reason I don't want to dwell on it too much, is because someone's home form has
17:46 improved this year. There have been some frustrations, but generally speaking,
17:49 some have been much better. So we shouldn't dwell on that too much.
17:52 The other one I'm going to chuck in is the biggest frustration for me. It's just Denis
17:57 Erkin's rotten luck. Whether it's hamstring injuries, whether it's concussion because
18:01 he puts his head on his line for the team. It just feels like you can't get 10, 15 games in a row.
18:07 And if there's one thing I would love to see moving forward, because he's a fantastic player.
18:13 And even in the flashes we've had him this season, you see what he brings to the side. Left-footed,
18:17 aggressive. He's actually really good in the air, so teams can't target him.
18:21 Gives a lot of Clark on the overlap. Yeah, it's been really frustrating for me.
18:27 I'd put Alissa in that category as well, but obviously we knew coming into the season that
18:31 Alissa had a fairly serious injury and that was going to take time to develop.
18:34 Yeah, that's the position of the pitch, which I think ordinarily
18:38 is a position of real strength for Sunderland. And yeah, Erkin's rotten luck has been a big
18:44 frustration for me this season. It has indeed. Good shots, Phil. The next
18:49 category is favourite goal. I will let you bat first on this.
18:53 Go on, I'll let you go first this time, in case I'm nicked.
18:57 Well, I've got a few. So, obviously Rigg's first goal against Crew Alexander in the Cup was good,
19:03 becoming Sunderland's youngest ever goal scorer. His goal against Southampton was brilliant,
19:09 obviously 16-year-old scoring in the Championship. Huggins against Watford was a superb goal.
19:13 Massive shout.
19:15 Yeah, the story of that. And from a personal perspective, just because it's complete
19:19 vindication for me, Ek was two goals against Southampton as well with decent strikes.
19:23 And he did have a poor game against Birmingham City, to be fair, by his standards
19:27 in terms of losing the ball. I do think he did other aspects of the game quite well against
19:31 Birmingham City, but he did let himself down slightly. But, you know, that aside,
19:36 that Southampton game felt like a sort of 'what a player we've got on our hands here'.
19:41 But the Huggins story, which I'm sure you'll come to, Phil, you mentioned on our post-match video
19:45 after Birmingham City, it is one of the stories of the season, how well he's done.
19:48 Yeah, and I think it's something we've talked about. The amazing thing with Huggins is not just
19:55 that he's playing regularly, but he's actually recaptured the dynamism of his game. Because
20:01 you never know after the amount of time he's out injured whether that's going to come back.
20:05 And at the start of the season, we were praising him and rightly so, because he was playing
20:09 regularly, he was contributing. But you did feel like he was getting through the games,
20:14 as you would expect. Whereas now he's in the team on merit. It's not because other players
20:19 are injured. He's in the team because he is fantastic going forward. He gets up and down
20:26 the pitch, he supports attacks, he can recover quickly and defend well. And that was the goal,
20:32 embodied that really. Getting it out of the way now, we're both going to pick Jack Clark as Player
20:37 of the Season so far, because he is obviously the Player of the Season so far. But I'm pleased we've
20:42 given Huggins some love, because he is absolutely, if it wasn't for Clark's ridiculous form, we'd
20:49 have Huggins right in the conversation as well. And yeah, we should have put 'story of the season'
20:54 category on, we haven't. But it would either be, I think, Riggs' goal or Niall Huggins' resurgence,
20:59 because it's been a real treat. My favourite goal actually, for this one, I just went purely on
21:05 the one that got the biggest reaction out of me in the press box. And that was actually
21:09 Abdullah Barraway at QPR.
21:11 Nice, nice.
21:13 You reacted in the press box, you shouldn't have missed a stuff like that.
21:19 Do you know what it was? Because I think one of the things about this team is that
21:23 the pace and the ingenuity with which they play, it can catch your breath sometimes. And this is
21:28 just such a beautiful goal, because it's the reverse pass from Pritchard, which nobody sees
21:33 coming. And then it's Ausheshi, we've not seen anything of up until this point, with his gorgeous
21:39 cross into the box. And then what a hit from Bar on his weaker foot. And it was just one of those
21:44 goals that you can't help but just be a little bit breathless. And Bar's had a really good season so
21:51 far. I think we were all a bit unsure when we saw him pre-season, he was going to be playing on the
21:55 wing. And we weren't sure about that decision. But I think Mo Green's coaching staff have been
21:59 totally vindicated on that, because I know he's not in the team right now, but he's emerged as a
22:05 real viable alternative to Patrick Roberts. And in the absence of Ahmad, that was something we
22:09 were concerned about this year. Obviously, I'm not saying he's on Ahmad's level. But his
22:14 output's been pretty good. And that goal, I just thought that was just such a classic Mo Green
22:18 something goal. It was just quality, speed, and thumping volleys are great. They're objectively
22:25 great goals, everybody loves them. And that was just a great one, because it was a throw in where
22:30 there seemed to be no threat. And then it's in the roof of the net before you know it, right in front
22:34 of the away fans, which is always the perfect optics. And especially because it's a cute yard
22:39 on those grounds where the away fans are right on top of the goal as well. So yeah, great scenes,
22:44 really, really great scenes. Yeah, that's probably my favourite goal in of itself.
22:50 No, absolutely. And just quickly to go back to Huggins and his story arc at Sunderland.
22:55 He signed for Sunderland in 2021. He played twice in that late one season, twice, only twice. And
23:01 then last season, he played once in the Championship. He's already played 12 times
23:05 this season in the Championship, obviously with his injury issues. So for him to be doing as
23:09 well as he is after the injury issues and the lack of football, as we mentioned earlier, is
23:15 mightily impressive. Yeah, player of the season so far, pretty easy for me. I said Jack Clark,
23:21 but you could give shout outs to Paterson, probably Dan Neal and Tre Hulme as well, I think would run
23:28 Clark closest for me. I think Tre Hulme over the course of this season has been sublime.
23:33 Yeah, there's only Ballard I think that I would add to that conversation as well,
23:37 to the ones you've said. I think Ballard and Tre Hulme are pretty similar. It's sort of really
23:42 from very good years last year, they've become the established players that you wanted them to be,
23:47 and they found a real level of consistency. But it has to be Clark, right? It's just,
23:52 you know, it's been a joke. It's been an absolute joke what he's done this season.
23:58 You know, but I know people, you know, some people from the outside might say,
24:01 well, he scored four penalties. Well, yeah, but he won three of them.
24:04 You've got to score them.
24:05 Yeah, you've got to score them. And if you're the one who's getting fouled because they can't
24:10 defend against you in the box, then, you know, that's kind of on you as well, you know. He's
24:15 just such a... I don't think... he's barely had a bad game, you know, in his games.
24:21 He's already matched his goal tally from last season, this season. He's got ninth,
24:25 which is scandalous, really.
24:27 Yeah, and the fact that he's developed his game so much. You think when he arrived,
24:30 he used to get a lot of criticism for being predictable because he was always cutting
24:33 inside on his right foot. And, you know, that developed pretty quickly. If you think to that
24:39 famous goal, as I do very often, where he tees up Pat McRoberts, you know, and he takes the
24:43 defender by surprise by shimmying down the left. You know, we saw him do that again for
24:47 Aushish's goal on Saturday. We're kind of out... we probably shouldn't dwell too long about it
24:53 because we're kind of out of things to say about Jack Light, aren't we, other than he's brilliant
24:57 and it's been an absolute joy to watch him just explode, I think is the right word, this season.
25:01 And leave him alone in January, basically.
25:04 Yeah, yeah. If anyone's listening, he's not that good.
25:06 That's all that's left to say, really, on Jack Clark. Yeah, definitely my player of the season.
25:10 Young player of the season so far. I imagine we've both got the same on this, but I'll let you go
25:16 first again, Phil.
25:17 Yeah, well, this is a really hard one to do, isn't it? Because it's like watching your class
25:21 as a young player because some men during life...
25:23 Well, I was thinking this, actually. Is Jack Clark qualified? Because Luco Nymone,
25:27 young player of the season at 24 a couple of years ago.
25:29 Yeah, yeah.
25:29 25 years ago.
25:30 You know, technically, Patterson and Neil would, at any other club, be in this conversation.
25:34 But, right, I think we both say it's a joke, right?
25:36 Yeah, absolutely.
25:37 I'm guessing, yeah. I mean, we all understood the job signing and that, yeah, he's a really
25:43 talented young player. That's what someone would do. But we were looking at it, kind of thinking,
25:47 well, it doesn't look like it really serves the needs of the team. Well, I mean, you know,
25:53 Joe's performances have spoken for themselves. If you need someone to go up front and try and
25:57 win headers and stretch the game, he does that. When he's being asked to operate a little bit
26:01 deeper and show a lot more discipline, he does that. What a fantastic signing he's been.
26:06 I think there's a few things that stand out with Joe. One, which is just I've kind of referred to,
26:11 his tactical awareness for an 18-year-old is incredible. And to be able to play a number
26:17 of different positions in one game tells you that you can take on a huge amount of tactical
26:22 information and understand it. His strength for an 18-year-old is insane.
26:26 It is insane. It is absolutely insane. What is the thing we always say about 18-year-olds?
26:31 He looks like a full-blown man, doesn't he? He looks like a full-blown man.
26:35 Unbelievable. You know, what we always say, often say about 18-year-olds,
26:38 sentimentally, is, 'Oh, technically he's lovely, but he's got a lot of work to do.'
26:41 Joe goes into challenges with three, four players and comes out still holding the ball.
26:45 It's absolutely insane. And that's not to suggest he hasn't got technical ability,
26:50 because he clearly has a lot of it. But to be physically where he's at now at 18,
26:56 you are really thinking, 'Where on earth is he going to be in four years' time?'
27:00 It is an unbelievable prospect. And I think that, you know,
27:05 Job is in the team every week and no-one backs him out of it.
27:09 I was going to make this point that he's become an 18-year-old first-team
27:16 regular in the middle for Tony Mowbray, and it's just sort of accepted now, isn't it,
27:22 that he's a starter? It's almost like he's a senior player. Nobody talks about Job's naivety,
27:27 you know, probably after his debut, that talk died down. And let's not forget as well that
27:32 were those that maybe thought, like, that this was a slight PR signing with the Bellingham name.
27:37 Is he going to be as good as his brother? You know, there's not many footballers that are as
27:42 good as two Bellingham sorts, perhaps. Kraster sort of compared the two. But there was talk that,
27:47 you know, as you say, did it serve us the needs of the team? Do we really need Job Bellingham? Is it
27:52 just a bit of a sort of fantasy football manager signing? And pretty much instantly he's put all
27:57 that to bed. And the exciting thing is, as you mentioned, he's still got some growing and some
28:02 learning to do, and he already looks this good. It's a very exciting prospect. I guess the question,
28:09 Phil, which I think we've spoken about in this podcast and has been written about on the Echo
28:14 website, is that will he need a break at some point? And how does someone cope with that?
28:18 Yeah, I'm looking at, you know, the under-18s England call-up last week. And, you know,
28:24 we should give a shout out. Was it under-19s? Sorry. No, it is under-18s, isn't it? Sorry,
28:30 listener. I should have written it down. Right. So I wanted to give a shout out to Matt Young,
28:36 who's got his first call-up to that England under-19s. A 16-year-old goalkeeper who's going
28:40 away with Job, which is an incredible achievement. It tells you how talented Young is. But with Job,
28:46 yeah, they're playing three games over this international break. And you're just thinking,
28:49 my God, like, is that what he needs? Three more games of football? Now, I'm sure he'll be managed
28:54 closely. But I think because we all remember, you know, it was a season that ended very,
28:58 very happily at Wembley. But we saw Dan Neil, Dennis Sirkin, Callum Doyle especially,
29:04 you know, these players did burn out. And we are seeing someone bring Job off pretty much every
29:09 game after an hour and 65, 70 minutes. And I think at some point he's definitely going to need to
29:13 come out of the team and have a rest. Because, yeah, we don't want to get to... If you look at
29:19 the schedule for December, it is insane. Sunderland play so much football, so much travelling.
29:25 And unfortunately, at some point, Job is going to have to sit out one or two of these games.
29:29 But yeah, the long-term, he's got to see this future.
29:33 He has indeed, and it looks like a bit of a bargain really for what Sunderland actually
29:38 paid for him. Player we would like to see more of, I have got four players filled for this category.
29:44 The first is Maienda, just based off that little cameo we saw against Birmingham City. I thought
29:49 he was hugely impressive and I'm keen to see more. Chris Rigg, obviously we've seen a fair bit of,
29:56 but I'm really keen to see him start. I'm really looking forward to seeing him start. Obviously,
30:02 that has to be managed. He's only 16 years old. I'm not expecting, you know, five or six starts
30:07 to come anytime soon. But when that does happen, I am keen to see what he does on the pitch with
30:12 more minutes and more responsibility. Roosen as well, I'm enjoying what he is doing and I'm
30:18 looking forward to see if he can get on the score sheet and how he develops. And the other, scored
30:24 against Birmingham City, looks a real handful. I said on social media afterwards that he was
30:28 absolutely chomping at the bit to get on and he absolutely loved it as well. Whereas Aushish,
30:34 I thought, in terms of a substitute performance, he really, really took the game by the scruff
30:40 of the neck. Yeah, Aushish is mine. Aushish is the one for me. I think, you know, like keep the eye
30:46 game I've already referenced, but I was going straight away, you know, the guy's never played
30:50 with any of these players and he's just bouncing off them. He's playing little one-twos with
30:54 Pritchard. Pritchard's been drawn to him on the pitch because he knows he can play these little
30:59 combinations with him. Straight away, you're thinking, okay, this is a really good footballer.
31:03 And he's an interesting one as well, because I think for obvious reasons, because quite often
31:07 Sunderland do sign a lot of players at the end of the window and we sort of put them all in this
31:12 one category of really, really, really young untested players. Actually, Aushish has got a
31:16 huge amount of Ligue 1 experience. You know, he's played a lot of football and clearly he wasn't...
31:23 In France, that is, not in England.
31:26 Yeah, yeah. Although I wouldn't hold that against him if it was Ligue 1. I spent a lot of time
31:31 there. I've got a lot of respect for it. But no, I think straight away you could just see this was
31:36 a player of serious calibre. And Mowbray has said that he was going to start at Leicester.
31:44 Unfortunately, he picked up a little injury, which meant he didn't start that game. But that tells
31:47 you that he feels he's a really high-level technical player. And it's a position where
31:52 there's a lot of competition, you know, when you put Dak Pritchard and also Rigg coming off the
31:56 bench as well, when you consider Job as well, as we've just talked about. But I'm really excited
32:02 to see more of Aushish. He's just one of those players you want to watch. I think it's something
32:07 to find a really good player there and it's going to be exciting to see how he goes.
32:10 Yes, absolutely looking forward to seeing a bit more of him. Overall, mark out a 10 for the season.
32:16 Phil, I've put a pretty optimistic 8. I've enjoyed it so far. There was a little bit of a dip,
32:21 obviously. I think Son had lost three on the spin, which was unfortunate. But again, I'm really
32:28 enjoying the development of this team. As you mentioned, players like Neil and Ballard and Hulme
32:36 who are that year older, who've come to the fore. Huggins obviously breaking out. You know, the Job
32:42 story has been good to watch. Jack Clarke's been electric. I'm hoping that Patrick Roberts can
32:48 sort of catch fire as well soon because I think in terms of his output in terms of goal contributions,
32:55 he's been a bit below par. But he's definitely the same player. I'm looking forward to seeing
32:59 what he can do. So I think, yes, it remains to be seen where Sunderland will finish, obviously. But
33:05 I do feel like this group under Tony Mowbray and this club in general actually are on the right
33:10 track. Yes, I went for 7.5. I actually started with a 7 and then that felt really harsh. And then
33:18 an 8 felt just maybe a little bit too positive because I think, you know, we discussed it. You
33:24 think back to the Stoke away, which was really disappointing, such a flat performance. Swansea,
33:29 Cardiff at home. You do feel like Sunderland have missed some opportunities, but then at the same
33:35 time, you have to step back. And especially when you consider that uncertainty we had on sort of
33:41 very eve of the season. And actually look at it and go, well, we've lost the two key players from
33:46 last year, Adam Ross Stewart. And I know people say Stewart only played 13 games or whatever.
33:50 He scored 11 goals and that was responsible for a huge portion of Sunderland's points
33:55 hold last season. And to have lost those players, and I actually think the team's got better,
34:00 it might have lost that little bit of stardust. But I think the general structure of the team's
34:04 improved. And I know we're frustrated about the strikers, that they haven't got a goal, but I
34:08 actually, I can see the promise in these players. And I'm really excited that we're less dependent
34:13 on lone players this season and that we've actually got some assets that you can grow over time.
34:18 And so I feel really positive about the general direction of the team. I think it's really
34:23 refreshing when you follow a team to see that it's getting stronger and that certain areas
34:27 have been addressed over time. And so, yeah, I feel really positive about it. But in the context
34:33 of this actual season, I think there have been a couple of probably a couple of missed opportunities.
34:37 And also, it's not all about Sunderland, it's about the other teams as well. And I do think
34:41 some of the teams in this division this year are seriously strong. And that's kind of, you know,
34:45 I think it's going to be difficult for Sunderland to compete higher. But, you know, 16 games in,
34:51 if you said to us on the eve of the season, the team would be looking good, they'd be in sixth
34:55 position. Six points better off than this stage last season. Well, there you go, that sums it up.
35:02 You would have snapped the hand off for it. So I'm going for a very, very good seven and a half.
35:07 Some frustrations along the way. But yeah, pretty exciting times.
35:11 Absolutely. Well, 35 minutes there, a nicely lengthed podcast. We'll probably bring it to
35:18 an end. Phil, thank you for joining us. I hope you achieve your goals with Accra and Stanley
35:22 on Football Manager 2024. We are not sponsored by Football Manager 2024, and we haven't received
35:27 any sort of any royalties. But if somebody does want to get in touch...
35:31 Yeah, we will be very interested in that one. So anyone touch them.
35:35 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. Cheers, Phil. Thank you to the listener for listening once again.
35:40 We are all over everything Sunderland at the Sunderland Echo website. Thank you for listening.