Joe Nicholson and Phil Smith look back on the highs and lows of Sunderland's 2023/24 season
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00:00Hello and welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo. My name is
00:27Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writer at the Echo, Phil Smith,
00:32and we're going to be talking about the latest goings on at the club, the season as a whole,
00:37looking back at some of the highs and lows from the last 12 months or so. Phil, how are you doing
00:43this afternoon? We're recording this on a Friday afternoon with no game this weekend. Yeah, looking
00:48forward to being back on the cricket field tomorrow, I have to say. Disappointed not to
00:52have a playoff campaign. It's really strange, isn't it? We've got like, it's almost become the
00:56norm for Sunderland to be in the playoffs and for the season to sort of end, you know, positively
01:01or negatively, on a really sort of exciting, in an exciting fashion. So I thought the last month
01:06of the season was quite tough for everyone, wasn't it? We're obviously fortunate that it's our job,
01:10but I think if you were a fan going to watch, it was pretty tough to take. I think, you know,
01:14nothing to play for and the football not being great. So yeah, I think like everyone kind of
01:20enjoying having a bit of a break from that, but also sort of anxious to see what comes next.
01:25It feels like there's a lot in limbo, doesn't it? And so, yeah, eagerly sort of anticipating
01:30some developments and hopefully some positivity for supporters and then going and having a proper
01:36summer break. But I guess time will tell. Well, hopefully there's no developments when you're
01:40playing cricket tomorrow afternoon. It has been known to happen in the past, so I wouldn't be too
01:48surprised. Well, we'll come on to the head coach. Sunderland's season, of course, came to an end,
01:54losing 2-0 against Sheffield Wednesday last weekend. And the head coach situation now,
02:00it's a really important appointment, isn't it, Phil? Sunderland have had a bit of time now.
02:04They've appointed Mike Dodds until the end of the season to kind of assess their options and
02:09try and make the right appointments after making the wrong appointment with Michael
02:13Beale, and that didn't turn out well at all. And you reported this week that nothing is
02:18imminent at the minute. So can we read anything into that? Does that mean Sunderland are looking
02:23at people who are still in work, their seasons haven't finished, or are they still assessing
02:27their options? Kind of what's your understanding of the situation? Yeah, I think there's an element
02:32of both to that. I think the decision not to appoint somebody straight after Michael
02:37Beale's departure was very much informed, I think, in part, I suppose, as a recognition
02:42of the fact that the process and the comments had gone badly wrong last time. So therefore,
02:48you need to kind of stop and assess that process. If you're like, what was it that you got wrong?
02:52What do we need to change next time? And the other aspect of it is that I think one of the most
02:56difficult things they found when they were looking for Tony Mowbray's replacement was that they found
03:01it very, very difficult to get candidates in during the season. And I think most clubs generally
03:07would find that because it's just obvious, isn't it, that you're less likely to leave wherever you
03:12are at that stage of the season. And as we said repeatedly at the time, that was one of the reasons
03:18why the timing of when they got rid of Mowbray was completely wrong. Whatever you thought of
03:22the actual decision, it was the timing that just didn't work out for anybody, really. So I think
03:29that's been a big part of the thinking, is that there'd be sort of a wide pool of candidates,
03:33if you like, in the summer. And I think that's probably the reason, by and large, why we haven't
03:38sort of had an immediate announcement at the end of the campaign, because I think that process
03:42is still running, if you like. As you said, I think it was on possibly Monday or maybe Tuesday
03:49that I reported at that stage, you know, nothing was imminent. That has sort of been my understanding
03:55since then. I personally kind of was expecting, you know, something more towards, you know, maybe
04:01towards the end of next week or the start of the week after. But the reality is, you know, obviously
04:05these things can change very, very quickly. And if you have a breakthrough or you reach an
04:09agreement, it can accelerate. So, you know, I haven't expected anything this week, but obviously
04:13that can change quickly. But I do think sort of the key thing has been that being patient,
04:20they felt, would lead to a better calibre of candidate. And maybe that means, you know,
04:24everyone will have to be a bit more patient. But it also raises the stakes, doesn't it?
04:28Because if you wait for such a long period to bring someone in, what it essentially did,
04:33if we're honest, was write off the previous season. It always seemed unlikely that someone
04:38were going to get to the playoffs after that decision. So, while I can understand why they
04:42did it, and I don't necessarily disagree with that, I do think it has made this appointment
04:47a lot more pressurised, if you like, and certainly raised the stakes. And it's one that clearly they
04:52have to get right. I think even in the last few weeks, we've seen just how the picture
04:57can change by waiting till the end of the season. For example, Will Stiller's high profile,
05:01he's left RONs already. So he's someone that's suddenly looked at before. So now he's out of
05:07work. You've got Liam Rossini left. Hold this wig, I'm not saying that these people are going to
05:11to get this job, but already the pool of candidates that are out there out of work has
05:15changed from when Michael Bale left the club in February. But now there's going to be a spell
05:20where kind of not a lot is really going on. There will be the announcement of the players that are
05:25going to be staying and leaving next season, and then the squad will return around kind of
05:31June, July time for pre-season. But when can we kind of expect an appointment? When would be the
05:36ideal time to probably make an appointment? It's going to be before the players come back
05:39for pre-season, wouldn't it? Yeah, I think so. I suppose you could argue that there isn't a huge
05:45amount of time pressure at this stage. And as you mentioned, the players will now be gone until
05:49probably the back end of June, I think, sort of certainly mid to late June. So in theory,
05:54you know, there's not a huge sort of amount that bringing in the head coach sort of immediately
05:59actually offers you. The flip side of that is that what is happening at the moment sort of
06:03in the academy is the summer recruitment planning is sort of underway. And the sooner you get a
06:09head coach appointment in, obviously, the sooner they can start feeding into that recruitment
06:13process, which is obviously the ideal scenario, because although obviously the club has a specific
06:19style that they recruit to, and the idea is that you have continuity, no matter who the head coach
06:23is, at the end of the day, the head coach picks a team, don't they? So you want them to be involved
06:28in that process and to have an opinion. The sooner they're in, the sooner they can also
06:33give their own thoughts on what they want pre-season to look like. Again, that's in terms
06:36of the fixtures and the schedule, that's mostly being mapped out. But in terms of training and
06:41all those kind of things, you know, the new head coach will have their own ideas. So I don't think
06:46there's a sort of an urgent time pressure. And I don't think at this stage, someone necessarily
06:51massively losing out by not having a new head coach in place. But I think realistically,
06:56you would like them to be in place over the next couple of weeks. So they can start to be involved
07:01in those recruitment meetings that are going to be happening in the academy. Like what we've had
07:05already is the initial recruitment meetings where, I guess you'd call like squad audit.
07:10So reflecting on how the season has gone, which positions you think you've got some issues,
07:14which positions you think might be losing players. And obviously what begins to happen now is you
07:18take that to the obvious next step. You start talking about targets, who might be available,
07:23what your budget might be, who might fit in within that budget. My feeling is that it would be even
07:27if the head coach isn't in charge of transfers, it would be really, really useful to have them
07:32involved in that process. So while I think I don't have a sort of panic or a stress, if you like,
07:37and the fact that there's no one through the door right now, I do think it's something that ideally
07:41you would like to happen this month, because although the players will be away and they won't
07:45be able to sort of be having that day-to-day contact with the players, I do think it would
07:49be a big, it would make the sort of recruitment a lot more seamless if they're in place. So we'll
07:55wait and see, I guess. Yeah, definitely. Well, as you mentioned there, decisions are already
08:00being made on players' futures. You reported this week that Corey Evans and Bradley Dack
08:06are set to leave the club at the end of their contract. Sunderland had an option on both of
08:11those deals to extend it by an extra year. Also, there's Callum Styles, who Sunderland signed on
08:17an initial loan deal with an option to make that deal permanent. We're still not sure what's going
08:21to happen with him. And then you've got Mason Burster going back to Chelsea following his loan
08:26spell. I suppose on those two, Evans and Dackville, I think it seems pretty obvious that Sunderland
08:32weren't going to trigger that options for Dack's contract. I think he clearly hadn't played enough
08:36football in the year that he'd been at Sunderland. With Evans, I think over the last few months, it
08:42seemed kind of inevitable that he would probably leave at the end of his contract. But given
08:47Sunderland's lack of options in central midfield, I just think over the last kind of few weeks with
08:53him coming back into the fold as well, you could have kind of made a case for giving him an extra
08:57year just because Sunderland don't have that natural holding midfield player. What do you kind
09:02of make of that decision to let him go? Yeah, I can totally understand the decision because of how
09:08little football he's played over a period of time. And so it's always a gamble in terms of can you be
09:13sure that they're going to be able to play a large number of games next season. But I was like you,
09:18like by the end of the season, I kind of came to the point where I thought it might be worth giving
09:23him another year. There's two reasons for that. One is that Sunderland basically had like three
09:29windows since Corey Evans got injured, that ACL injury against Middlesbrough. And they've been
09:34really, really reluctant to bring in someone of his ilk. And in my opinion, I think it's really
09:39damaged the team. I think the balance of midfield hasn't quite been right all year. And the other
09:45factor, and so I guess I kind of like the idea of having Evans as an insurance policy, because in
09:49certain games where you need that kind of player, he will be there. And my fear is that if he goes
09:54and when he goes, which is what we expect to happen, then that player just won't be there and
09:59Sunderland won't have that option. And I think that was revealed in, there was more than one
10:04press conference that we sat in, wasn't there Joe, after games, where Mike Dodds basically said,
10:09oh, well, I didn't really envisage giving Corey Evans that much time, or I wasn't planning to
10:12bring Corey Evans on. But the game situation kind of demanded his qualities. And I think that kind
10:18of tells you something, if you keep having to turn to someone, then it means they've got someone to
10:21offer, doesn't it? So my view on it is a really clear one. I think that if they're going to go out
10:28and get somebody, then I've got no problems with the decision. If it's because they feel they don't
10:33need that player, then my fear is that will prove to be a mistake again next season. But listen,
10:39either way, I think Corey Evans has been a really fine sort of servant for Sunderland. I think that
10:44an absolutely integral player in that run under Alex Neil, if you think about that long and beaten
10:49run at the time, he got some of that lead one. He also did something very, very sort of impressive.
10:55I always think he totally won the crowd round. He wasn't always a crowd favourite, let's be honest,
10:59after coming from Blackburn. And to sort of show his experience and his maturity and his calm,
11:05sort of keep playing and to win everybody round, you know, all of us included,
11:09I think was really impressive. So I, you know, I think he's been a fine player for Sunderland.
11:13While I don't have a problem with a decision in principle, I can see the sort of football
11:17business case for it. I think if he's not replaced, I think he'll be a miss again next season. But I
11:23guess we'll wait and see. Maybe there has been a change of sort of stance behind the scenes.
11:27Maybe they do think they need someone of that player and we'll see someone come in.
11:32The other interesting thing about both of them, again, I don't disagree with the decision on Dak
11:36either. But from what I'm thinking, I don't think it means there's a player over 30, does it,
11:42in the squad contracted for next season? And I'm not saying that...
11:4809 would be the oldest, wouldn't he? Which is incredible really, isn't it? And while,
11:52like, you know, I absolutely of the view that, you know, experience doesn't necessarily mean age,
11:56it can mean appearances and what have you. I think that level of experience and maturity
12:04and sort of understanding the Championship, understanding the highs and lows of a season,
12:07managing that, I think that would be a big miss in the dressing room. So
12:11while I don't disagree with either of the decisions per se, I really, really hope that
12:16there's a bit of a recognition that that balance needs to be addressed, if you like, and those
12:22players have to be recruited. I think someone needs another 10 as well. I don't know what
12:26you think, but I think Pritchard's been a big miss in the second half of the season.
12:30I think actually she's very talented and I think he's got a role to play, but he hasn't got
12:35Pritchard's consistency yet. Joe obviously is an option to play that role if someone bring in a
12:40striker, but I think he's a very different type of player to Pritchard or Dakwa and Aushish. I
12:45think it's probably a bit more dynamic, a bit more box-to-box. So, yeah, no problem with the
12:49decisions, but I think both need replacing in terms of their attributes, if you like,
12:53and also their experience. Yeah, I'd agree with having to bring in another number 10. I think
12:58the other thing with Evans, obviously you're recruiting from a playing side and non-playing
13:02ability, but his influence in the dressing room as well. A lot of the players you speak to,
13:06the younger players, a couple of weeks back we spoke to Harrison Jones and one of the players
13:10who's done well in the 21 side, and he was saying how big an influence Evans has been for the
13:16younger players and as the captain of the group. I just think as well, positionally as well,
13:21we've seen this season that Dan Neal has had to play in that number six role in front of the back
13:25four because there's been no one else to do it. I think a few of us agree that Dan Neal would
13:30like to see him a bit further forward, arriving in the box and being able to provide that goal
13:34threat, but he's just not been allowed to do that because Sunderland have not had that
13:38hold in midfield. So I agree. I think if you let Evans go, you've got to bring in
13:42somebody else who can play in that number six role and kind of give Sunderland a different
13:47option. But what do you think about Styles? He's someone that's come in. He's played predominantly
13:52as a left back. For Barnsley, he's played more of a central midfielder, but we haven't really seen
13:57him in that role apart from really the final day of the season against Sheffield Wednesday,
14:01when he got substituted at half time. So what do you think about his situation?
14:06Yeah, I honestly got no idea which way that was going to go. Do I think from what we've
14:10seen on the pitch over the last few months, do I think Sunderland would go and trigger the deal?
14:15I think probably not. However, I think we have to put it into context. I don't think he'd ever
14:19really played left back before. He'd obviously played left wing back quite a lot, but you know,
14:23that defensive side of the game. So that was a very, very difficult situation for him to come
14:28into. He'd obviously had surgery on his appendix before he'd come into the club. So he was still
14:32fine on his feet after that. So I think to come into a team that, if we're brutally honest,
14:37was unravelling after that of an injury, out of position, I think you've got to put those
14:44performances into context. I also think he looked a lot more solid when he went to wing
14:47back. I thought he looked like he was something to offer. The other aspect of it is that,
14:52you know, Sunderland, from my understanding, have been tracking him over quite a few transfer
14:56windows. So they obviously, you know, it wasn't just like a stopgap signing. Obviously they had
15:01some issues on the left of defence with the Leeds Saints circuit, and that's partially why they
15:04signed him. But they obviously feel he's got the attributes to be part of the team going forward.
15:09So I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you might otherwise think it would be,
15:13given that he probably hasn't had a huge impact on the team. From my understanding,
15:17the option can be triggered. It's basically got a few, kind of good few weeks to run yet.
15:24So my assumption is probably that hopefully the head coach might be able to sort of have some
15:29feedback into that process. If you're bringing someone in who's never going to play with the
15:33back three, does that mean that, you know, it's difficult for Stiles to bring into the team?
15:38You know, maybe it does. And therefore, maybe you say, actually, it's probably not worth the
15:42investment. If you bring in someone who is going to play with the back three, then you might think,
15:45oh, what a great sort of player in terms of he can fill three or four positions in that system.
15:50So I genuinely think it's too early to say on that one. I'm not sure which way it will go.
15:56And if all goes well in terms of getting a head coaching over the next couple of weeks,
16:00then maybe they'll be able to sort of feed into that process. And that might
16:04sort of have an impact either way.
16:07Just finally, before we come on to our highs and lows of the season, our kind of season review,
16:13just it was announced this week that Sunderland have appointed David Bruce as the Chief Business
16:19Officer at the club. Bruce has been at the club since last year, kind of stepping up roles now. So
16:27just on that, Phil, kind of what will that mean in terms of
16:30his involvement with the club away from the pitch?
16:35Well, I suppose it doesn't make a huge difference in that he's obviously been
16:40working as Chief Branding Commercial Officer since he came in earlier in the season. So the
16:44only real difference it makes is his responsibilities are greater because obviously he'll be taking on
16:48a large amount of what has been Steve Davison's workload for the last couple of years. I think
16:53we've already kind of seen what Sunderland want from David Bruce, both in his previous role and
16:58moving forward. Obviously the announcement that Hummel are taking over the kits and that Fanatics
17:03are going to be running a sort of rebuild club store and a new online store. You can see, and it
17:09was actually referenced in the accounts last week, that they feel that commercially the club isn't
17:14getting the kind of revenues that they feel they can because of the fan base. And I think it's also
17:20fair to say the fan base has been really disappointed with the sort of retail and ticketing and customer
17:25service offering that's been in place for the last few years. So I think basically we will see a lot
17:30more of what we've seen around the improved kit offering. I think that's where Bruce's,
17:35you know, a lot of his work is going to be done in trying to increase that revenue, if you like.
17:40And I imagine that obviously there's a lot of investment going into the Stadium of Light at the
17:43moment to try and refresh that. I think it's coming up 20-25 years, isn't it, since that opened?
17:50So I think we'll see more on that front over the next year or so. So yeah, I suppose that day
17:55to day it won't change a huge amount, but what we're definitely going to see is we're going to see a big
17:59push, I think, for Sunderland to try and drive those commercial revenues because obviously
18:04they're pushing to be sustainable against teams and compete with teams and parachute payments. We
18:09know that one way they feel they can bridge that gap is either by developing young players
18:13to play them in the team or sell them on. And obviously they see the commercial side of the club
18:18as an absolutely vital part of building that income, if you like. And that's going to be,
18:22I think, what Bruce's kind of key task is going to be. And yeah, the kit announcements
18:27and what have you, we've already had, I think, from the start of that process.
18:32Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're going to come on to now our season review. We sent a tweet out earlier
18:38this week asking fans for some of their highs, lows, goal of the season, player of the season.
18:43So we're going to go through ours now. We'll start with the highlights of the season, which
18:49probably comes from the first half of the season for many fans. I think the obvious one and the
18:54one we had most in the comments was the 5-0 win over Southampton Phil. Seems like a different
18:59season ago, really. Like so much has happened since that day back in September, at the start
19:05of September. It was right after the transfer window closed. There was this kind of questions
19:11asked, are Southampton going to sign another striker? Are players going to go? And then they
19:14went and thumped Southampton 5-0, a team that had just come down from the Premier League. So
19:19I say that was probably my highlight. Would you share that view? And are there any other
19:23highlights that stick out from the campaign? Yeah, I had to think long and hard about this
19:28one, which told its own kind of story. As you said, the Southampton game, it just feels so
19:32long ago. But yeah, I think that was definitely my highlight. There was a few factors
19:36to it. One was that, you know, the season had actually started really disappointingly, and that
19:42some of them were playing okay, but obviously had those two really bad defeats, didn't they,
19:45against Ipswich and Preston, even though I didn't think they played that badly. Knocked out of the
19:49Carabao Cup. And it all felt, because of the uncertainty that had been around Tony Mowby's
19:54future over the summer, it all felt very unsettled, didn't it? As you say, and then a very difficult
19:58end to the window where there was a huge amount of speculation about Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts,
20:03I think even Dan Neil was being linked with a move away at one stage, wasn't he?
20:06Yeah, Ekwer, I think as well.
20:07And so for Sunderland to go out, yeah, Ekwer as well, that's right. And Sunderland to go out
20:13next day and play that well against, you know, a team that had been in the Premier League the
20:17previous season, it almost felt as if Sunderland had kind of drawn a line under a very, very
20:23difficult few months. And it felt like, okay, we've got them back on an even key and we can
20:28kick on now. That's obviously absolutely not what happened and it proved to be a bit of a false
20:33dorm. But I think it's a bit of a reminder, to be honest, that for most of the first half of
20:37the season, like Sunderland weren't a bad team and they played decent football. They were very, very,
20:42very competitive. This was one of the few days where they were able to take their chances
20:47consistently. So to be honest, I, by and large, enjoyed the first half of the season. It was
20:54very frustrating at times, obviously with the striker issue and someone not always getting what
20:59their performance has deserved. But the first half of the season, I thought in the main was okay.
21:03And obviously the Southampton game, you know, that brilliant fifth goal with Bennett doing about
21:07three twists and turns and Chris Riggs scoring. Yeah, I think that was definitely the highlight
21:12of the season. And like I say, just a real shame that actually it proved to be a false dorm really
21:17rather than more of a turning point. I was just having a look back at the highlights from that
21:23game before and there was, I remember in the first minute, I think it was Sirkin giving the ball away,
21:26Sunderland had conceded a corner and then from the corner Sunderland broke and then
21:31Hulme crossed the ball for Clarke and then he headed it in and then within a few minutes later,
21:35Ecuador had made it 2-0. It was just one of those days where everything went right for Sunderland.
21:41The other one I had written down as a highlight was the 1-0 win over Leeds in December when Mike
21:46Dodds had charged us. There was two massive clubs playing. It was a night game, wasn't it? And then
21:52Bellingham getting that goal, I think it was just a big occasion. They obviously came with
21:55a big backing as well. And that was another game that stood out, backing up that win over
22:00West Brom when Mike Dodds was in charge. So they were probably the two for me that stood out.
22:06Yeah, I think so. That's a really good shout for Leeds games. I think off the back of the West Brom
22:09one, obviously it gave us the feeling that actually there was a bit of continuity there in terms of,
22:15yes, Tony Mowbray gone, but this was still a talented squad and hopefully it won't be
22:21too much of an impact. Obviously, they then made some bad decisions off the back of that,
22:25but yeah, that's a really good shout. I think especially that Leeds game and that joke goal,
22:30it did feel like things were, you know, maybe things will still go in the right direction.
22:34But yeah, unfortunately, I think the next home game after Leeds would have been Coventry at home,
22:39wouldn't it? Which leads us, I guess, into our lowlights really because that was sort of the
22:45beginning of the end of the season, really, wasn't it? You know, a lot of fan disappointment
22:50and anger in the stadium. Now Huggins' injury, which would be right up there for a lowlight of
22:55the season for me, given how brilliant he'd been through the first half of the campaign and what a
22:58good story that had been. And although there were the odd really good results under Michael Bale,
23:03I'm thinking specifically Hull away at Boxing Day was obviously a good win. You know, nothing was
23:07ever really the same in the season after that Coventry game. It felt like a huge turning point
23:13in the season, you know, the manner of the defeat and also the way things seemed to be unravelling.
23:18Yeah, we'll come on to lowlights there. You mentioned a few there. You could also throw
23:23in the Blackburn game, the 5-1, but I think probably the biggest lowlight and biggest
23:27frustration will come around that kind of December, January time where the season did kind of all
23:33unravel. I remember we were travelling down to Bristol City in that kind of evening.
23:37We were travelling down on the Friday night and it was Dodds' last game in his first spell
23:42of interim boss and the news came out that Bale was going to get the job.
23:46There was then also that ticketing stuff about the Derby and then just the way the season
23:51unravelled. I think that was kind of, for me, the biggest kind of lowlight and frustration is just
23:56how quickly it did unravel after those two impressive wins against, as we mentioned,
24:01Leeds and West Brom. And then even when Michael Bale came in, there was a big backlash. There
24:06was the reaction and clearly a lot of fans were very underwhelmed by the appointment. And we said
24:11at the time that the Derby game could either make or break him if he went and won that Derby
24:16game against Newcastle in the FA Cup. Then that would get him a lot of credit in the bank,
24:20whereas actually it worked the other way and that almost kind of put the nail in the coffin.
24:27As you mentioned, that Hull game had actually had a few decent results after the Coventry game,
24:32which was obviously there was a backlash in the stadium. They got a win over Hull,
24:36they got a win over Preston on New Year's Day and I think they were kind of building
24:39a little bit of momentum. And then the Derby game came at a bad time and then it was the game
24:44against Hull on the Friday night where the fans were chanting against Bale and that's where you
24:49thought there's no way back for him from there, was there? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
24:56I mean, I wrote down my low light was the Newcastle game and it was just everything around
25:00that which just felt completely wrong. And I think it was a huge turning point for a lot of
25:06supporters in terms of it really damaged how they felt about the ownership, I think, with what
25:11happened with the Black Cats bar. I think obviously we'd been through a period where something
25:18generally had been progressing, I think, under the current ownership. And although there were
25:22a lot of debates and a lot of frustrations at certain times within that, you know,
25:25not signing strikers on deadline day, all these kinds of things, I think generally there was a
25:30sense of progress and I think the appointment of Bale and things starting to go wrong and then
25:34the Derby game, I think, undid a lot of that from which I still don't think something recovered at
25:39all. And I thought Sunderland on the pitch that day were a mirror of Sunderland off the pitch.
25:44Obviously, we knew that the most likely result was for Newcastle to win and it was obvious that
25:49they were probably going to win that game because of the golfing quality. But I just thought Sunderland's
25:52approach was so meek that they almost made it inevitable. And although you expected Newcastle
26:00to go on and win the game, however Sunderland settled, it was just such a disappointing performance.
26:04I think when you actually saw, you know, Blackburn, for example, in the next round,
26:08gave it a real good go, didn't they? And nearly got a result. I think that just underlined how on
26:12and off the pitch, you know, Sunderland's approach had been all wrong. And I did sympathise with
26:16Bale and like what you said in that, you know, it wasn't his fault he was an underwhelming candidate.
26:20It wasn't his fault that the club made such a mess of the Derby arrangements, which clearly,
26:25you know, helped sort of damage the mood and that impacted him. But I do think my overall biggest
26:31frustration from the season is the way that Sunderland went from one of the most enjoyable
26:35teams in the country to watch, to what we saw at the end of the season, where to be honest,
26:39it was pretty painful viewing at times. Even when Sunderland lost games for a long period of time,
26:45I came away feeling as if I'd enjoyed watching what they were doing and felt really good about it.
26:49And the reality is that, you know, the appointment of Michael Bale was the moment in which
26:54pretty much they stopped being that vibrant front foot fearless team that we loved watching.
26:59And that's something which has just accelerated since. So that's probably my biggest frustration,
27:03really. It's so long we'd wanted this young, vibrant front foot Sunderland team, finally got it
27:10and then almost just kind of totally self-inflicted, moved away from it. That's, yeah, that's something
27:14which still really, really, really frustrates me at the end of the season. And for me, it's like the
27:18biggest thing I want to see change this summer. I want that Sunderland back because, you know,
27:23you can accept your defeat, you know, if you sort of feel as if you're moving in the right direction.
27:28And with the players in the squad, I don't think there's any reason why it shouldn't be that,
27:31you know, shouldn't be good to watch.
27:34Yeah, I think just as well that one of the biggest disappointments for me was just the way
27:38kind of it ended for Tony Mowbray. I think just speak for you as well, kind of just one of the
27:43kind of nicest guys, had time for everybody. Obviously, did a great job last season,
27:47incredible job last season, really, to get Sunderland into the playoffs. And of course,
27:51he's had to step away now from Birmingham. We still wish him well and pass on our thoughts.
27:56But just the way it kind of ended for him. And as you said before, like Sunderland,
28:01they weren't in incredible form when Mowbray left. I think it was two wins in nine,
28:05but just the way that they went from a team that was very dynamic on the front foot and
28:10then the season just unraveled so quickly was a big disappointment for a lot of fans and us
28:16covering the team. But we'll move on to goal of the season. I have to look back at a few of these.
28:22Conveniently, the club put out a video just before we, about an hour before we came on,
28:25of all the goals this season. So I was having to look back at some of those. The one that got
28:29mentioned quite a lot on our post on social media was Niall Huggins' goal against Watford, where he
28:34beat a couple of players and then hit one into the top corner. I think that was his first goal in
28:39senior football as well. And as you mentioned before, a big disappointment for him to get
28:43injured in that Coventry game and now be out for a long time. But just kind of the emotion he showed
28:48as well. We spoke to him after the game as well, and he was saying how tough it had been to come
28:52back from the injury that he's had, which makes the injury he's got now kind of very disappointing
28:57as well for him. So that was one that stood out. I don't know if you had any others that
29:01kind of stood out for you this season? No, I mean, that was the obvious one for me.
29:07The other one that I thought was just an unbelievable goal was Jack Clarke's Ipswich,
29:13where I think it was a corner that sort of broke to him. And I still don't really understand
29:18how he managed to strike it that cleanly. And the reason I picked out that goal was at the time,
29:23you know, the best goals are always the ones that are just so unexpected. And when the ball
29:28came to Clarke, we just didn't see how he was going to score that quickly, how he was going to
29:32get to that part of the goal. I don't even remember the goalkeeper move. It all happened in such a flash.
29:37It's hard to say that's a goal of the season because at the end of the season, he'd lost the game.
29:42But I remember thinking that strike was just absolutely unbelievable. So in terms of the
29:47actual quality of goal, I think that one would be up there. Jobes at Southampton, an amazing goal,
29:54the one that he placed in the far corner. Again, you're sort of biased against that one because
29:59at the end of the day, it didn't end up with a win. So that's why I think I would give it a
30:03Huggins. But those are the two strikes that I remember at the time. So my jaw actually dropped
30:07because you just didn't expect them to score from there. So yeah, those are the two that
30:13sprung to mind as well.
30:15Yeah, the Jobe one, at the time when he went in, obviously suddenly come back from 2-0 down,
30:19you're thinking this could be a really special away day against a side that were fighting for
30:23promotion. If someone had gone on to win, for example, unfortunately, they'd go and lose it 4-2.
30:27The other one I had written down was Pritchard's goal against Preston on New Year's Day, where he
30:31kind of cut across the ball and it kind of swerved away from the goalkeeper. That was the other one I
30:37had in terms of just a strike. The other one was Dan Neal against Norwich, where I think Jack
30:43Clarke beat a couple of players and then slipped it through to Neal, who then beat the goalkeeper
30:48and then roosted his movement and kind of created some space in between. So that was a good one as
30:53well. That was the West Brom one. That was the other one I had. That made it 2-0. Yeah,
31:01we went through and he chipped the goalkeeper. So a few good goals, but most of them from the
31:06first half of the season we have more fond memories of. We'll come on to player of the
31:12season. I think it's going to be pretty obvious in most people's eyes that it's going to be Jack
31:17Clarke. Definitely. I don't think you can say otherwise really when you just look at his goal
31:26output. I think the other thing about Clarke is it's not as if he just picked up where he left
31:33off. Actually, there was a huge improvement. Last season he was a really good player for
31:37Sunderland. But I don't think we were looking, coming into the season, going this is the guy
31:41who's going to carry Sunderland's attack. I think last season it had mostly been about Ahmad
31:46Hadnett and even Roberts to an extent. Again, that's not saying Clarke hadn't been very good.
31:50He'd been excellent. He'd scored some really important goals. But I think the way he took
31:54on that burden from Ahmad and became pretty much the best player in the Championship. Obviously,
31:59he had some of the other players in his position for Leeds who won the award in Smodic. But I think
32:04Clarke, up until his injury, was right up there. I think that was an incredible achievement. So,
32:09for me, I don't think there's really much of a debate. I think it has to be Clarke. I think you
32:13could pick out a few of the players who I think took a big step forward this season and deserve
32:18credit for their consistency in a difficult season. I would say Dan Neil, Trey Hulme and Dan
32:23Ballard, I would all put in the same category of they'd had a pretty solid previous season and
32:28shown they could play at the level. I think they really stepped up and became leaders despite their
32:34age, which I think is really to their credit. And I think, for the most part, they all performed at
32:39a really consistent level. So, I think they all deserve sort of a mention and some credit. But,
32:44yeah, Clarke's the clear player of the season and the young player of the season. I would probably
32:50say Dan Neil, but I would definitely put Trey Hulme in that category because I think sometimes
32:54it's easy to forget that it's only 18 months ago that he barely played a game for Sunderland.
32:59You know, and again, the fact that he's performing so consistently now,
33:03and I think also the fact that he's played 55 games, including internationals, this season.
33:09Actually, I haven't seen much of a drop-off from him recently and I think that's really
33:13credible. And I think Joe would have to go into that conversation as well. I think to get seven
33:17goals in pretty much his first season, I think that's really impressive as well. So, yeah, I
33:24do think, although there aren't loads of candidates, I do think there are a few players who have
33:28sort of deserved some credit for their consistency in a really difficult season.
33:33Yeah, as you say, I think the way Clarke has stepped up and kind of, at the start of the
33:37season, was almost replacing those goals that Ahmad had scored as well, kind of single-handedly
33:41as well. Whereas last year, you had Clarke, you had Roberts, was in better form, you had Ahmad
33:45as well. You kind of had three of them kind of chipping in, whereas at the start of the season,
33:49a lot of it was going through Clarke. And it was a shame he did pick up that ankle injury and then
33:53quite rediscover that form that he had in the start of the season towards the end of the season.
33:57But by that stage, Sunderland's season was fizzing out. And as you mentioned, I think Dan
34:01Neal deserved a big mention as well. I think that's a position, going back to kind of Corey
34:06Evans playing that holding midfield role. I think if anything had happened to Dan Neal midway through
34:10the season, I think Sunderland would have been in real trouble because there was not a natural
34:14replacement to come into that holding midfield role. And as I said before, I'd like to see him
34:18play further forward as that player that can arrive late in the box and maybe get up to 10
34:23goals a season and chip in more. But I think the way that he adapted and played in that
34:29holding midfield role and was disciplined enough to play there was huge for Sunderland.
34:33And if he had picked up the injury that he had towards the end of the season,
34:37if that had happened in December, I think Sunderland would have been in real trouble
34:41because I think there was not a natural replacement to come into that position. So
34:46big credit to him. And as you mentioned, try him as well and a very good season from him. I think
34:50up until, was it the Watford game where he didn't play? I think he was the only outfield player that
34:55had started every game. So, and I remember speaking to him a couple of times and asking him,
35:02well, is there going to be a time where you're going to get taken out the side just because
35:05they track their numbers and their minutes so closely now? And he was just saying like,
35:09why would I come out the side? I love playing. I love competing for Sunderland and just wouldn't
35:15want that rest, even though he was playing every week for Sunderland, every week for Northern
35:19Ireland. I think it was credit to him that his standards didn't really drop significantly
35:23towards the end of the season. So yeah, put him in that category as well. The next one we've got,
35:29because we've kind of covered a young player of the season there,
35:32player you want to see more of next season? Yeah, the one I put down was Dennis Irvine. I think
35:39it's obviously a very obvious one, but I think that one of the, obviously the two positions we
35:44spoke most about being a problem for Sunderland this season were, as you mentioned, of all the
35:48midfield and strikers, they were the two obvious ones. But I do think left-back has been a massive
35:53issue all season. So for much of the season, you know, Sunderland have either had to put one of
35:58their right-backs at left-back and Trehearne was fine whenever he was there. He was very good in
36:03fact, but Cooley is better at right-back. Or as we've seen recently, they've had to put a player
36:09there who would probably rather play in a different position, but can do it. So Yelder and Styles are
36:14the two obvious ones. Yelder, who I think I've told you, had me actually sign that he was a
36:17centre-back first. Styles, who's obviously a midfielder or a wing-back rather than a left-back.
36:22I do feel like that was a massive issue for Sunderland all season. I think it took away
36:27sort of in attack and in defence. I thought Alise when he first came back, which was around the sort
36:32of Preston game, the Newcastle game, I thought he was one of Sunderland's best players. I think
36:36he's made a solid comeback recently and so that gives me a lot of optimism for next season.
36:41I think Serkin has two aspects to it. One, he's a very good defender and two, I think he is
36:46excellent in terms of getting forward and supporting Jack Clarke. He overlaps him,
36:51he makes it really hard for the defenders to sort of double up on Clarke because Serkin
36:55obviously gives that option to either go outside or inside. I just think he's such a huge talent.
37:00I think he's been such a massive miss for Sunderland this season and I think if he can get
37:04fit in pre-season and stay fit, I think what has been one of Sunderland's weakest positions this
37:09season becomes one of their absolute strongest positions without having to spend a penny.
37:14So yeah, for me, if there was one kind of player I could push a button and say you're going to get
37:18sort of 40 games out from next year, for me it would be Serkin because I think that if him and
37:23Alise stay fit, then I think that's going to be, I wouldn't go as far as to say transformative,
37:27but I think that's going to make a massive impact on Sunderland.
37:31Yeah, I'd add your Alise written down and kind of going back to the biggest disappointments
37:35obviously and frustrations. I think the head coach is obviously the biggest one,
37:38but you mentioned Niall Huggins' injury. I think Dennis Serkin's injury as well. I think
37:41he actually started the season well. I think the first few games, he was one of Sunderland's
37:45better players and then he picked up an injury and then there was another injury setback when
37:49he came back and it was just a shame to not have him because he would have been such a big boost
37:53and to not have him and Alise there, it did really take away from that centre-back position.
37:58And Alise as well, a player who had his injury setback last season and then had surgery in the
38:03summer and then came back in January and had another setback. And as you say, when he came
38:07back towards the end of the season, he looked like he gave Sunderland a lot, whether he was
38:11playing as a left-back, whether he was playing on the left of a three like he did at Watford,
38:16I think he looked very comfortable there and gave Sunderland that natural left-footed option.
38:20So I'd like to see a lot more of him next season. He signed a new contract as well, Alise,
38:26this season, I think until about 2027. So a player who's in it for the long-term and two
38:30young players there that if they can stay fit, Sunderland have got two excellent players there
38:35on their hands in kind of the same position as well. Maybe Alise could even move into
38:39a centre-back position as that left-footed centre-back. He brings a lot of options there.
38:44The other one I had written down as played, maybe we'll see more of, and you could kind of put him
38:49in the young player of the season category from the second half of the season is Chris Rigg and
38:54still quite hard to believe that he's still only 16, the way that he played in the second half
38:59of the season, wasn't it? Yeah, he was exceptional really. And I think we reached the point,
39:04didn't we, by the end of the season where he was in the team on Barrett. I think obviously
39:10the big question is whether he decides to sort of stay and sign a pro deal next month. We obviously
39:15still don't know which way that's going to go. He'd be very hopeful he's going to stay. We know
39:19he loves it here and Sunderland have kind of shown that they're willing to give him opportunities.
39:24I think you can look at Joe this year and see that there's potentially the chance for him to
39:28be a regular starter next year in his first sort of full season, if you like. And I suppose the
39:32interesting question then becomes, does he stay out wide or does he move into the middle? He's
39:37obviously going to be a centre midfielder in the long run. As Mike Dodds has explained, it's
39:41something that's very common with young centre midfielders to start on that wide where there's
39:44a bit more time and space and there's a little bit less pressure. So if he does stay, which hopefully
39:49he will, I do think he'll be a regular next season or a relatively regular next season.
39:54And what's going to be interesting is how quickly he matures and develops and does Sunderland move
39:58him in field, potentially going somewhere to address some of the issues we've talked about
40:03earlier in the podcast, or does he kind of stay out there and compete with Barr and Roberts?
40:08Yeah, I think he's potentially a player with a big part to play next season. What we're hoping
40:13is that Sunderland are going to get back to this front foot, aggressive style. And I think
40:17Riggs' energy certainly is pressing. I think there's definitely a chance he plays regularly,
40:21so that would be something really exciting to see. And like I say, we've all got a long wish
40:25list for the summer, haven't we, in terms of things we'd like to see. But I imagine for a
40:29lot of supporters, seeing the picture of Riggs signing a pro contract would be right up there,
40:34and that's testament to how well he did. It'll be interesting to see where he does fit in because
40:39in pre-season, like last summer, he was kind of played in that number 10 position, wasn't he,
40:44in Sunderland's tour of America. And then in the last few weeks, he's been playing on this right
40:49hand side ahead of Patrick Roberts as well, who hopefully with a good pre-season can get back to
40:53the levels that he showed last season. But it'll be interesting to see how Riggs fits in. Still not
40:58kind of sure where his best position will be, which is understandable when he's only 16. I
41:03suppose similar with Joe Bellingham as well, still not quite sure where he's going to fit in. Is he
41:07going to be a boxer box midfielder? Is he going to be a 10? Is he going to be a striker? There's a
41:11lot of the younger players where you're not quite sure where they're going to fit in, and it's going
41:15to be interesting to see how they do develop, how much game time they get. And I think one thing is
41:20we still have to be patient with these players as well. We've seen that it is natural when
41:25you're that young, you're going to have dips in form. It happened to Dan Neil a couple of
41:28seasons ago that there will be times where maybe if they're overplayed or kind of hectic schedules
41:36in the Championship where they will have dips in form, but it doesn't mean they're a bad player
41:39and doesn't mean that they can't come back. So I think that's something to remember next season
41:44as well. But we'll come on to the last category that we had, which is overall mark out of 10. Now,
41:51quite difficult considering, as we've mentioned, the first half of the season was so promising,
41:55and then it tailed off quite dramatically in the second half of the season. But
41:59Sunderland finished 16th in the Championship, still easy to forget that it's still only their
42:04second season back following that promotion from League One. And I think if they hadn't
42:09finished sixth last year and got in the playoffs, would we view this quite differently? Because
42:1516th does seem quite underwhelming, but it is easy to forget that the club have, you know,
42:20it's only their second season back in the Championship. But equally, the aim at the
42:24start of the season, as Christian Spiegman said, it was to get in the playoffs again,
42:27and they've fallen well short of that. Yeah, I think to be honest, at the start of the season,
42:31if you'd said 16th, I would have been bitterly disappointed. And you're right in terms of the
42:36context and in terms of the division, the fact that it was still only their second, they had
42:41overachieved the previous year. But I still think 16th would have been seen as a big step backwards.
42:46So I've ended up going with four out of 10, because I marked the first half as probably about a seven.
42:51And then the second half, I think you could go as low as a two, not just because of the results,
42:55but because the football has been so bad to watch. And I think that's been so disappointing,
43:00certainly over the last sort of six weeks or so. And I think the fact is that as well,
43:06it's not just been the results and the style of play and stuff. I think it wasn't,
43:10it stopped being fun following Sunderland for everyone, because of what happened with Michael
43:15Beale, what happened with the Derby. It just became, I think Sunderland had worked so hard
43:20and done so well to sort of shake off this image they had of being a bit of a basket case,
43:26impossible to manage, always some drama. And although it means there's always something
43:30right about for us, I actually think it made the whole experience a lot less fun than it'd
43:34been the previous year. So I think the second half of the season for me is like a two at most,
43:39really. So I've kind of gone somewhere in the middle, because as you say, and as we've talked
43:43a lot on this podcast, there was some good football play and some good positives in the
43:47first half of the season. So I'll end up with a four and very much must do better next time around.
43:54Yeah, I'd probably agree with the four. I think, as you said, the football at the start of the
43:58season, where Sunderland were, there was still that excitement kind of carried over from last
44:02season under Mowbray, the fact that they'd been in the playoffs the last season and it felt like
44:07they could be a challenge, they could challenge again. And I think based on the kind of squad,
44:12you look at it, was Sunderland that far off kind of West Brom Norwich towards that fifth,
44:16sixth spot? I don't think so. If they had kind of a natural goal scorer, a reliable goal scorer,
44:21I think that would kind of be the realistically where they should be finishing around those kind
44:26of competing for the playoff spots. But the way that they did fall away in the second half of
44:29the season was extremely disappointing. But Phil, that kind of brings us to the end of today's
44:35podcast. Best of luck tomorrow with your cricket match. What's the weather looking like for
44:40tomorrow? Yeah, glorious, glorious. Yeah, it should be good. And then hopefully we'll be back next
44:46week with some more significant sort of updates. I think that's what we're hoping for. Maybe we
44:51can do some special podcasts on retained lists and new head coaches and all that stuff next week.
44:56But we'll see. You never know with Sunderland. Yeah, there's still certainly plenty of stuff for
45:01us to write about with the head coach, with players. So even though Sunderland aren't
45:05playing over the next few weeks, there's still going to be a lot going on. And you can find
45:10all of the latest news over on the SAFC section of the Sunderland Echo website. And as Phil said,
45:15we will still be recording regular Raw podcasts. So keep an eye out for those. So once again,
45:21thanks a lot for listening to the Raw podcast.