Phil Smith and James Copley take you through Sunderland's retained list, head coach hunt and the under-21s brilliant win in the Premier League 2 to set up a final against Tottenham.
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00:29 - Technical difficulties there.
00:31 Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast.
00:33 James Copley here with Phil Smith.
00:36 Phil, how are you doing?
00:39 - Yeah, not bad, thank you.
00:40 I've managed to pick up a cold, which probably sums up
00:43 the weather in the Northeast.
00:45 But never mind.
00:46 We're all good.
00:47 We'll power on.
00:49 - Oh, dear.
00:50 Sorry to hear that.
00:51 We'll start with a couple of news items
00:54 from the world of Sunland.
00:55 Phil, sad to hear that Tony Mowbray has stepped down
00:58 from Birmingham City as his health issues remain ongoing.
01:03 A massive shame.
01:04 We'd all like to wish him well.
01:07 - Yeah, definitely.
01:09 Really sad news this morning.
01:11 So I think the hope had been that after a bit of time,
01:14 he'd be able to lead Birmingham next season.
01:16 And clearly, I think he would have done an unbelievable job.
01:19 I think they would have been favourites for promotion
01:21 when they've told him to be in charge.
01:23 But clearly, his health is the most important thing.
01:27 And it seems like a sensible decision has been made.
01:29 And obviously, nice to see that Tony very much intends
01:33 to return to management.
01:35 So hopefully, this is a sign that the recovery is progressing,
01:38 that he is doing well.
01:39 It's just a bit too soon to come back.
01:42 So really sad news, but also hopeful
01:44 that we'll see Tony back in the game,
01:46 maybe sometime in the future.
01:48 Because it would be an absolutely huge loss
01:50 if this was the end of his management career.
01:52 But it seems like that's not going
01:54 to be the case, which is good news.
01:56 And of course, we were really lucky to work with him,
01:59 really lucky to watch his football teams.
02:01 So very much wishing him and his family all the best.
02:05 Absolutely.
02:06 Also like to wish Marco Gabbiadini all the best as well.
02:09 He announced on BBC Red and Newcastle's Total Sport
02:13 that he's going to undergo a triple heart bypass, which
02:15 appears to have come pretty out of the blue from what
02:17 he was saying last night.
02:19 He wants to raise awareness, which is extremely admirable.
02:21 Phil, we're both around the 30-year-old mark,
02:24 so we don't remember Marco Gabbiadini.
02:26 But when you speak to the 40-year-olds and the 45-year-olds,
02:29 it tends to be that Marco Gabbiadini was their first hero.
02:34 Yeah, I've seen plenty of clips of him.
02:36 So although I never watched him live,
02:38 I can see what a good player he was.
02:40 And yeah, as you mentioned, a really good interview
02:43 that he did with BBC Red and Newcastle, where he was a pundit
02:46 last night, sort of outlining what he's been through
02:49 and how he found out about it.
02:50 And I think a really important lesson for anyone, really,
02:52 in terms of raising awareness and fair play to him
02:56 for doing that as well.
02:58 So wishing Marco all the best with his surgery.
03:01 And we genuinely want to go and listen to that
03:04 and consider that as well.
03:10 Absolutely right.
03:11 We will move on to the title of this podcast.
03:13 So we're going to be having a look at Sunderland's head coach search.
03:17 We'll also take a look at the retained list and Sunderland's
03:20 under-21s through to the Premier League Two final as well.
03:22 So we're also going to link that in to the show as well.
03:27 We'll start with Sunderland's head coach search, though, Phil.
03:31 I see a lot of fans who are frustrated by the delay.
03:34 I also see a number of other fans stating that there's not really much of a rush,
03:39 in a sense that the right candidate might not have become available yet.
03:42 And it's such a crucial appointment that Sunderland do need to take the time
03:47 and get it right.
03:48 The flip side to that is that they have had since January to sort of identify
03:54 targets. Where are Sunderland at the moment, Phil?
03:58 Yeah, well, I mean, ultimately, there's only a couple of people
04:01 who can fully answer that question, aren't there?
04:03 And it's absolute radio silence on that front, which is maybe as much the problem
04:07 as anything else.
04:09 What we can do is piece together a little bit of a picture,
04:13 given everything that we know.
04:15 The first thing being that there are a few reasons why Sunderland didn't appoint
04:19 anybody immediately after Michael Bale left.
04:22 One was they wanted to take some time to reflect on what got wrong last time,
04:26 because clearly they didn't get the right appointment after Tony Mowbray's departure.
04:30 The other was probably that they thought the squad or the team was in better shape
04:33 than it was.
04:34 And maybe they overestimated what Mike Dodds would be able to do off the back of
04:38 his previous interim spell.
04:40 So that was certainly a factor in it.
04:41 But the biggest one really was the reason why I think they made the wrong appointment
04:45 when Tony Mowbray left was because the succession planning clearly wasn't strong
04:50 enough, and they found it pretty much impossible to hire their top candidates
04:54 in the middle of the season.
04:56 They either found that the circumstances of the contracts around those people were
04:59 impossible to navigate during the middle of the season, or they found that people
05:03 who they really liked were really reluctant to leave in the middle of the season.
05:07 So that's essentially still the case now in terms of you've got a lot of campaigns
05:12 that are only just finishing over the last weekend.
05:15 A lot of those people who may be taking the next steps this summer and weighing up
05:18 their decisions are still doing that.
05:22 And Sunderland's view is essentially that it's better to be patient and wait for the
05:27 right sort of candidate than rush into one that's the wrong one,
05:33 which you could maybe argue is what they ended up doing with Michael Bale.
05:36 So I think people can see the logic.
05:39 There's two aspects to it.
05:41 I think one is that it's obviously very high risk, because if you then don't get
05:44 that candidate or one of those candidates that you're waiting for, you've potentially
05:48 let the other pool get much smaller because the other clubs are potentially going to be
05:52 coming in for those other candidates who might be a little bit further down your
05:54 list, but you still think you could do a good job.
05:58 And the other thing, obviously, is just the fact that it leaves us still in a real
06:01 sense of limbo.
06:03 We've not heard from anyone really on the football side of the club since the season
06:07 ended.
06:08 So we've obviously had some good insight from David Bruce, the new Chief Business Officer,
06:11 into the club's plans and what fans can see moving forward.
06:15 There hasn't really been anything from the football side.
06:17 And I think that is at risk of sending a really bad message because it either looks like,
06:22 A, what happened last season wasn't that big of a deal, or that, B, there doesn't
06:26 really need to be any accountability for it.
06:28 Now, I don't think that's the reason why there hasn't been any talk.
06:31 I think the idea is, you know, action speaks louder than words.
06:35 Let's go and get the new head coach in and then that will kind of show fans what we're
06:38 all about.
06:39 But at the moment, it just leaves the disappointment of last season really hanging in the air,
06:46 I think, because there hasn't really been any acknowledgement or accountability for
06:49 just how badly things went wrong in the second half of the season.
06:51 So there's a logic to why let's wait to the delay.
06:56 But the reality is that it does have consequences.
06:58 And I think it does leave some of that ill feeling from last season lingering.
07:03 You've touched upon it there, Phil, but the lack of communication perhaps becoming an
07:08 issue around the sort of head coach debacle.
07:11 Who do you think that message should come from?
07:14 Obviously, you know, Christian Speakman as the Sporting Director, but, you know, we've
07:18 maybe seen with Tony Mowbray-Saccan and Sunderland's previous flirtations with other head coaches
07:23 that there is a big influence from Sunderland's co-owners as well.
07:28 Who would that message best be coming from and what should it say?
07:32 It's a tough one to judge, isn't it?
07:34 Yeah, in my view, I think something from the ownership would have been the most powerful
07:38 thing at the end of the season.
07:40 I kind of understand to an extent why we haven't heard much from Christian Speakman and that
07:45 in reality, what Sunderland fans want from Christian Speakman is to appoint a really
07:50 good coach.
07:51 So until he does that, I think you could probably make an argument that there isn't a lot for
07:55 him to say until he kind of gets that job done, if you like.
07:59 That's not to say that he shouldn't speak at some point, because I do think Christian
08:02 Speakman has to be accountable for A) the January window and B) the Michael Bale appointment,
08:07 because although we know sort of the ownership sets the strategy, you know, he is responsible
08:11 for football and decisions.
08:12 And I don't think that's something that supporters and people who follow the club have really
08:16 had a chance to sort of hold the club to account on and sort of really get a grip of what lessons
08:20 have actually been learned from that and why it unfolded the way it did.
08:24 So I do think it's important that Speakman speaks at some point, but I think what I would
08:28 have liked to see at the end of the season is just an acknowledgement from the ownership
08:32 that what had happened last year had fallen short, you know, and that's on the pitch where
08:37 bad decisions were made, off the pitch where some really, really bad decisions were made,
08:42 especially around that Newcastle game.
08:43 I know Kyrill posted a statement on his Instagram, didn't he, at the time with the Blackhats
08:46 bar stuff.
08:47 But yeah, I would have liked to see the ownership sort of speak, address fans, you know, nothing
08:54 sort of, I'm not saying like anything particularly major, but just to acknowledge the hurt really
09:01 and acknowledge the frustration and acknowledge that some mistakes have been made.
09:04 I think that would have been a really positive step.
09:07 I know obviously the appointment of David Breeson, there's been quite a lot of communication
09:11 hasn't there around the off the pitch stuff.
09:12 So that has to an extent sort of shown that there's been some listening done and some
09:17 action being taken.
09:18 But yeah, for me, like I can totally understand why there's a delay to appointing the head
09:22 coach.
09:23 I mean, if you've waited this long, you might as well wait a bit longer and try and get
09:27 the people that you really want.
09:29 I can totally understand that logic.
09:30 But I do think there's a risk of letting that bad feeling linger.
09:36 I think that ultimately, I suppose the important question which we'll come on to is, you know,
09:43 does it impact someone for next season waiting?
09:45 Well, at this stage, it probably doesn't, does it?
09:48 Because players aren't moving anywhere yet.
09:51 The players are away, you're at the club for another month.
09:55 So at the moment, you're probably not losing a lot by not having a head coach in place.
09:58 But that probably starts to change once you move into next month and your recruitment
10:03 should really be stepping up.
10:05 Players potentially coming in are going to want to know who the new head coach is, aren't
10:07 they?
10:08 That's obvious.
10:09 Similarly, players at the club might want to know who the new head coach is if they're
10:11 getting interest from elsewhere.
10:13 So at the moment, I don't think the club have lost a huge amount because of the delay.
10:17 But there's definitely a point at which that starts to change, I think, over the next few
10:20 weeks.
10:21 Michael Bowers on YouTube touches upon it, but there's an argument, Phil, isn't there,
10:27 that it would be really good to have a head coach come in just so we can have something
10:34 to look forward to, a bit of a clean break in terms of last season as well.
10:38 Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.
10:41 And that's why I also felt something from the ownership would have been really constructive,
10:46 really important, just to draw a line into the season and say, yeah, we get it.
10:50 I didn't go how we wanted to go.
10:52 It's not good enough for someone to finish 16th in the Championship.
10:56 It's not good enough to leave you all feeling the way you did around the Newcastle game.
10:59 Do you know what I mean?
11:01 I think that would have been a really important part of the process of, like Michael says,
11:05 not drawing a line into last season because that frustration would have lingered, but
11:08 like you say, creating a little bit of a buzz and creating a little bit of a sense of, right,
11:12 OK, we've drawn a line into that to an extent, let's move on.
11:16 And that's the problem we're all in at the moment.
11:17 So that limbo has been allowed to continue, really.
11:21 It does feel like we're a little bit in purgatory, doesn't it?
11:23 It's like, you know, you want to be excited for the future, but how can you?
11:27 Because we don't know anything about the plans, really.
11:30 Nobody's outlined it.
11:31 We want to be excited about the new head coach, but we don't know who that's going to be.
11:36 So yeah, I do think it's a bit of a frustrating period.
11:39 And while I can accept and understand some of the reasons behind that, you know, I think
11:45 that there's a point at which it can become a little bit destructive towards next season.
11:52 I don't necessarily think we're there yet.
11:53 I think most supporters can acknowledge that, you know, these things do take a bit of time.
11:58 But yeah, my fear is that it starts to impact the unity around the club and also the time
12:03 which they've got to prepare properly for next season.
12:05 But we're probably not quite at that stage yet, to be fair.
12:11 Yeah, purgatory is a very apt word to describe it.
12:13 I feel like I've been in purgatory as a Sunderland fan since about 2003.
12:18 But yeah, onwards.
12:20 In terms of transfers, Phil, you did touch upon it there slightly.
12:25 It's important for new signings to know who the head coach is, what the style of football is going to be.
12:30 It's important for the players at the club, just general stability.
12:34 A head coach is clearly hugely still important at a football club.
12:37 But in terms of Sunderland's recruitment, it isn't necessarily really crucial and integral.
12:43 It's sort of halfway in between, isn't it?
12:45 Where, yes, you do need a good, strong head coach who will attract, you know, hopefully attract good football players.
12:51 But Sunderland have the plans regardless of the head coach, don't they?
12:54 Obviously, the head coach has an input, but it's very up in the air, isn't it?
13:01 I definitely, yeah, I agree with you to a large point.
13:04 The way Sunderland, although this is kind of the problem with the club at the moment,
13:07 though, because what we would say is, oh, well, the club has a way of playing regardless of the head coach.
13:12 And so that shouldn't change.
13:13 And so you should be able to spell that out to potential new signings.
13:16 But actually, that's not what happened at all in the second half of last season, was it?
13:19 I mean, Sunderland were one of the most negative teams in the championship to watch.
13:22 So actually, you don't necessarily have that strength of thread anymore.
13:26 That was one of the big frustrations in the second half of last season.
13:29 But your point, excuse me, your point is absolutely right on principle in that,
13:34 generally speaking, Sunderland are going to be the same club next year.
13:37 Opportunities to young players in theory, the playing style and stuff.
13:40 But I do still think the head coach, like, we would be making a huge mistake to assume that that's not important to the feel of the club,
13:48 to the team, to the players. And the switch away from Tony Mowbray underlined that.
13:52 And maybe the club got a little bit complacent with that.
13:55 Maybe the club underestimated the importance of that stuff.
13:58 And I do think there's two sides of it.
14:00 Even if you have a defined playing identity, which doesn't change from head coach to head coach,
14:05 they are going to have specifics about how they want to set the team up.
14:08 They are going to have some specifics about the shape, what they want in certain positions.
14:13 And so while it doesn't change your initial identifying of targets, right,
14:17 because you have an idea of what you're looking for, young players, resale value, athletic, technically good.
14:23 So you can draw your huge pool of players that you might sign without input from a head coach.
14:28 But I do think you need a head coach to start drilling down into the detail.
14:33 OK, here's six really talented, young, you know, centre midfielders that I've identified.
14:38 You know, you need the head coach to be drilling into exactly what they want from those players and how they want to play.
14:44 So I agree with you in that I don't think up until this point,
14:46 the lack of a head coach has made any real difference to Solon's recruitment planning.
14:51 But we are starting to approach the stage at which you would expect the head coach to be feeding into that.
14:57 Which is why I think it's really important that, you know, all right, this week we'll probably pass about an appointment.
15:04 But you don't really want to be going beyond the next fortnight, I don't think, because there's a lot of work to do.
15:07 And even if you have a really strong club model, players are going to know who their boss is.
15:11 I'm not going to join another company not knowing who my boss is and not having a conversation with him
15:15 and having a sense of what my working relationship is going to be like.
15:18 You're just not going to do it, are you?
15:19 There's no reason why a footballer making one of the biggest decisions in their careers is going to be any different.
15:24 So, yeah, I think your point is absolutely right to an extent, but only to an extent.
15:32 Maybe we've been a little bit guilty.
15:34 You know, we got a little bit complacent about someone's model, if you like,
15:37 and actually underestimate the significance of a head coach.
15:40 Do you think because of that, Phil, that Sunderland really know what they want?
15:46 I'm just thinking in terms of, you know, Sunderland employ a head coach,
15:51 but then they got two managers really in Alex Neil and Tony Mowbray.
15:54 They then went to a head coach in terms of Michael Beale,
15:58 then pivoted towards Mike Dodds and interim appointment until the end of the season.
16:02 Do you think there's maybe been a little bit of soul searching in terms of the direction of the club,
16:06 that model, the strategy, or do you think it's double down time now?
16:10 Well, a little bit of both, I think.
16:15 I think my gut feeling is that there was, I think a lot of things were taken for granted
16:23 or underestimated in the appointment of Michael Beale.
16:25 That to me, you know, we all saw, I was in that press conference when Christian Spinkman talked about,
16:31 you know, how the first couple of days of Michael Beale being some of the best coach he'd ever seen.
16:35 We all remember the statement when Tony Mowbray was sacked and Kierill O'Driff talked about high performance culture.
16:41 There was this real sense of like elite coaching environment and the comments were quite pointed,
16:48 but clearly they didn't think that was in place.
16:50 My gut instinct tells me that that process or that sort of journey that they went on,
16:58 in that they totally underestimated the importance of maybe what we might say,
17:02 a more traditional management skills, you know, communication, man management, all those sorts of things.
17:11 And I think maybe there's been a bit of a learning journey that at a club of this size,
17:16 those more traditional leadership skills are actually incredibly important.
17:19 And so I wonder if to an extent that is going to be more of a factor in this appointment
17:23 than it was in the last one, where I think maybe they got a little bit complacent.
17:27 Maybe they underestimated the strength of a lot of what Tony Mowbray and Alex Neil had done before him.
17:33 Because while they were both incredibly different characters,
17:36 the one thing they both had was a real strength of communication in their own way.
17:40 And they weren't overawed by the supporters and they were impervious to the outside noise.
17:45 They were able to speak to fans without being in any way dictated to by the reaction.
17:50 And that was obviously an incredibly powerful thing that I did with the greatest respect
17:55 I don't think Michael Beale had, certainly not when he was here.
17:59 So I do think there will be a slight change,
18:01 but fundamentally they are still trying to make the appointment they wanted to make when Tony Mowbray left.
18:06 So I would be amazed if the person didn't come in,
18:08 didn't have what would be described as an elite coaching background,
18:12 you know, from a top team in Europe or something of those ends.
18:16 That is still very definitely what they want to appoint.
18:19 I still expect it to be more of an 'up and coming' coach,
18:22 rather than what we would describe as a traditional championship manager.
18:26 But I would like to think, and I get the feeling that there's a recognition that
18:30 maybe the focus was a little bit too much on that last time.
18:33 And it didn't, you know, they sort of neglected some of the other areas that for Sunderland,
18:38 even if it's a head coach and not a manager, for a Sunderland head coach,
18:42 it's super, super important.
18:44 At least that's certainly my hope.
18:46 But I suspect that's probably the case, at least to an extent.
18:50 - No, we've definitely come full circle in this discussion.
18:53 We've talked about wider delay.
18:55 We've talked about the ins and outs, what Sunderland are looking for.
18:59 I guess what people really want to know is how far along down the road are Sunderland and is anything close?
19:06 It doesn't feel like it at the moment.
19:08 There's a little bit of noise here and there, but you don't get the impression that
19:11 the next head coach of Sunderland AFC is going to be announced even this week.
19:16 I'm well aware that I could very quickly eat my words on that,
19:19 and these things can move rather rapidly when the wheels fall into motion and into place.
19:25 But at the moment, it just doesn't feel like anything's near, does it?
19:29 - No, and it's not always particularly helpful to try and put time frames on it,
19:34 because I don't know if you're necessarily doing anyone any favours,
19:37 because like you say, things can accelerate incredibly quickly.
19:41 And if things drag on a bit, it doesn't necessarily mean something's gone wrong either.
19:45 So I'm quite reluctant to go down that road to an extent,
19:48 other than to say that it certainly doesn't appear or feel as if anything is imminent.
19:52 I would, at this stage, be surprised if there was a new Sunderland head coach this week.
19:56 That's just my view.
19:58 I still feel as if we're probably a couple of weeks away.
20:01 But what we also know is clearly is that the reason why an appointment hasn't happened yet
20:06 is because there are people at Sunderland who want,
20:08 who are still making up their minds and are still weighing up their options.
20:12 It follows that if somebody they really like decides quite quickly that they want Sunderland,
20:17 then the whole thing can go through the gears unbelievably quickly.
20:21 So yeah, at this stage, I feel like it's got a bit of time to run,
20:24 and that we're still in a little bit of a holding pattern,
20:26 with the caveat that if somebody decides that they really want it
20:30 and Sunderland are happy, then it can accelerate really quickly.
20:33 So really hard to put a timescale on.
20:34 But I do think it's fair for us to say,
20:37 from what we know and the conversations we have and our feelings,
20:41 that it doesn't feel as if it's imminent yet.
20:43 It feels like we've got a little bit of left to run on this.
20:46 And that's why, going back to my initial point,
20:48 I do feel quite strongly that someone somewhere
20:52 has got to speak to fans a little bit on the football side.
20:56 I think it's a long time to head into June,
20:58 a full month potentially after the end of a rotten season in the end,
21:02 without anybody really speaking to the fans or showing any accountability.
21:05 I think that's going to become an issue.
21:08 But we'll see how that develops.
21:13 For sure. Well, moving swiftly on from Sunderland's head coach Hunt,
21:17 last week the retained list was announced, Phil.
21:20 The main headlines, Corey Evans and Bradley Dack have left the club.
21:24 Obviously, Dack, he had just a season.
21:26 Corey Evans joined Sunderland in League One,
21:28 captained the club at Wembley against Wickham Wanderers,
21:31 as Sunderland won promotion.
21:33 Just on Evans, a good servant,
21:36 but a real lack of football over the past 18 months.
21:40 33 years old, probably made that decision for Sunderland.
21:43 What you would say is that his experience, his position,
21:46 his technical ability will need replacing,
21:48 because Sunderland are now seriously light in that midfield spot.
21:52 And something you said on the podcast, actually, a couple of weeks ago,
21:55 made me think that Mike Dodds in those latter Sunderland games last season,
21:59 when he had a problem in the midfield,
22:01 he was bringing Corey Evans on, which was quite telling.
22:04 Yes, that's exactly it.
22:06 I don't think anyone really could look at the sort of logic of the decision
22:10 and really quibble with it.
22:12 You know, Evans has not played much football at all over the last 18 months.
22:18 That obviously takes up a portion of your budget on a player
22:21 who you can't be sure how much football they're going to play next season.
22:25 It's a totally understandable decision.
22:26 However, it's one that, even if it's totally sensible,
22:30 I think loads of Sunderland supporters and I have a bit of an anxiety about,
22:35 because there's been three transfer windows
22:37 since Corey Evans suffered that ACL injury,
22:40 and the club have made next to no attempt to directly replace him.
22:44 Why is that?
22:45 It's a question we've asked loads of people, tonnes of times,
22:48 and never really got a straight answer back on.
22:50 So it's quite hard to sort of get across to fans.
22:54 The answer that I've sort of been able to piece together
22:57 from what I've had back from Christian Spiegel
22:59 and various head coaches and stuff is that basically they're trying to move
23:02 the team away from having a specialist holding midfielder, if you like.
23:06 They want to be a really front foot, aggressive team.
23:09 In some games, they'll play a holding midfielder,
23:11 but they want the young players in the squad to be able to execute that role.
23:17 To be fair, we have seen Dan Neal do that really well at times,
23:20 but if he's having to do it in more games than not,
23:22 then I just feel like it takes away from the team in the final third.
23:24 So I can understand the decision to lose Evans,
23:28 but I do think that he has been massively missed.
23:31 I don't think the balance in midfield has been right all season.
23:33 You know, how many counter-tackles does someone concede,
23:35 especially at the stadium of light? It's ridiculous.
23:38 So, you know, if someone go out and replace Corey Evans
23:41 with a good holding midfielder,
23:43 or even a slightly more defensive mid-centre midfielder,
23:47 then, you know, no quibbles from me.
23:49 I just have a bit of a concern about it
23:50 because it's something that we've kind of repeatedly decided not to do
23:54 for whatever reason.
23:55 And the other aspect of it is that, you know,
23:57 I'm not one who thinks the answer is to go out and get a load of 30-plus players.
24:01 I do think that, you know, experience, a young player can be experienced.
24:05 Like, it's about playing loads of games.
24:07 It's about, you know, championship experience rather than age.
24:11 Having said that, you know, Sunderland's squad,
24:13 I think we saw in the last few months of the season,
24:16 was way too inexperienced at championship level.
24:18 So, yeah, I think at least kind of two gaps, really, on and off the pitch.
24:22 That Sunderland just have to address that, to me, seems fairly obvious.
24:28 But there's obviously a reason that it's not happened up until now.
24:31 So, that's going to be a really interesting kind of storyline
24:34 to watch over the summer.
24:38 - Yeah, it's interesting.
24:39 Obviously, Corey Evans turning 34 this summer.
24:41 Bradley Dack leaving as well.
24:43 He's now 30.
24:44 That leaves Luke O'Neill as Sunderland's oldest player at 29.
24:48 Now, it's not always about age, as you mentioned, Phil.
24:51 You know, championship experience and AFL experience does play a massive part.
24:55 But O'Neill takes that leadership burden now,
24:58 with some other players sort of stepping up.
25:01 But in terms of O'Neill, you sort of think he's only been in the championship two seasons as well.
25:06 Yes, hugely experienced in the AFL.
25:07 But it's bizarre, I think, really, that that sort of fresh-faced 23-, 24-year-old
25:12 we saw come to the club all those years ago is now the most experienced player
25:16 in terms of age and championship appearances,
25:18 barring maybe a Patrick Roberts or something like that.
25:20 It's bizarre how this situation sort of crept upon us.
25:26 - Yeah, but I think, like, and I think, ultimately, what you look for,
25:30 I think a measure of experience for me is, like, consistency.
25:34 So, I think when a player reaches a certain level of experience,
25:36 they have an understanding of the highs and lows of the game.
25:39 They know their game, their strengths and their weaknesses pretty well.
25:42 They obviously have a really good sort of attitude to training and professionalism.
25:46 What you start to see is you get a base level of performance from them every week.
25:50 And I think, to be fair, at Sunderland, you have players who are young, or not,
25:55 certainly not old, but who are now producing a level of consistency.
25:58 So, Dan Neil's now had two full championship seasons, you know,
26:02 a year and a half in League One development.
26:04 You know what you're going to get from Dan Neil every week.
26:06 Some weeks, better.
26:07 Some weeks, maybe not quite at his best, but generally speaking,
26:10 there's a level of consistency.
26:12 09 is an obvious example of that.
26:14 I know sometimes he divides opinion, but let's be honest, he's a solid player,
26:18 and you know what you're going to get from him.
26:19 Dan Ballard is another one who absolutely has that now.
26:23 Trey Hulme is probably not far off that.
26:25 So, I agree with the level that, you know, like, age doesn't always equal
26:29 experience and consistency.
26:31 But I do think that what we saw was that Sunderland were always one or two injuries
26:35 last season away from putting aside, they just had too many unknowns in it.
26:39 Players whose performance level just fluctuates and varies too much.
26:43 And it's not necessarily their fault.
26:45 They're young.
26:46 They're either adjusting to a new league or they're just breaking into senior football.
26:50 You can't expect them to have that knowledge of how to ride the highs and the lows.
26:56 And that, for me, is the thing I want to see this summer.
26:58 I'm not so fussed about the player being 30, 31, 32, but I would like to see some
27:04 players come in who have experienced full championship campaigns, who know how
27:09 difficult it can get, who knows how good it can get, who knows how to manage the
27:12 highs and the lows.
27:13 So, for me, it's about seeing someone coming in with experience of the level,
27:17 who understands what a season looks like.
27:19 And you can kind of go straight away.
27:21 There's no guarantees in football and transfers, but you can say, yeah,
27:24 I feel like we know what we're going to get from them all season.
27:27 And for me, that was a big issue last year.
27:29 I do think a lot of experience was an issue.
27:31 I think it's important you have that in the dressing room.
27:35 But for me, it was more just that I think there were too many players who,
27:38 for understandable reasons, you just didn't know what you were going to get
27:41 from game to game.
27:42 And I think that was on the club because they put too many players in the squad at
27:45 once, where it was obvious that you weren't necessarily going to get that level
27:49 of consistency.
27:50 - Yeah, Bradley Dack leaving as well.
27:55 17 appearances, one goal coming against Southampton in all competitions.
28:00 Probably more of a Tony Mowbray sign, and last summer hasn't set the world alight,
28:03 been unlucky with injuries as well.
28:05 But one of those where you can sort of, well, you can absolutely understand the
28:10 logic, freeze wages up and get somebody else in.
28:12 - Yeah, I think that one's a no-brainer.
28:17 It just didn't work, did it?
28:19 You know, essentially, you know, Dack was really brought in with the view that
28:22 Pritchard might be going at some point.
28:24 And by bringing in Dack, you gave Mowbray that experience playing in the dressing
28:27 room, you gave him that sort of championship-proven quality, if you like.
28:31 The hope, obviously, was that, you know, that his injuries were pretty much behind him.
28:37 I remember earlier in the season, Mowbray saying he was hoping he would get sort of
28:40 25, 30 games out of him.
28:43 I don't know how many appearances he made in the end, but he certainly didn't make 25
28:47 to 30 starts or, you know, meaningful contributions.
28:50 So that one, to be honest, it was just a miss.
28:53 They just got it wrong.
28:54 You know, Dack couldn't be the player that they needed him to be, really.
28:58 He was supposed to carry some of the burden that losing Bart, Pritchard and
29:03 Gooch would leave, and so some of the things we've talked about,
29:06 consistency and experience.
29:08 So I just think that was the only decision, really, to be made.
29:12 Wouldn't surprise me.
29:13 I thought he was, when he was on the pitch, I rated him a lot higher than a lot of
29:18 Sunderland supporters.
29:18 I think there were times where he looked like a decent player and added a bit of
29:22 class and a bit of experience.
29:23 So I wouldn't be surprised if he goes and does all right for someone.
29:26 I just think that's where Sunderland are now.
29:29 I don't think there was any way you could take up that option.
29:31 You need those funds to bring in players who are, like I say, ready to hit the ground
29:36 running, who you know you're going to get, you know, touch wood, a certain level and
29:41 a number of appearances from.
29:44 Absolutely.
29:45 I'll quickly run through some of the other headlines as well.
29:48 Sunderland confirmed that Mesut BoÅŸdoÄŸan would be going back to Chelsea and that
29:52 Callum Styles would be going back to Barnsley.
29:54 Sunderland did add that they have the option to retain Styles permanently.
29:59 Phil, what's your sort of personal take on Callum Styles?
30:03 And that option doesn't feel like that's necessarily going to happen, but, you know,
30:08 there is an expiry date on that clause as well.
30:11 Yeah, I think it's unlikely.
30:15 I feel a bit for Styles, really, because it was just a rubbish situation.
30:18 He ended up walking into, really.
30:19 Head coach changed.
30:21 Team was going backwards.
30:22 He was just coming back from appendix surgery.
30:25 You know, his first game, he ended up on the right wing, didn't he, which I don't think
30:27 is a position he's ever played in his life.
30:29 So we didn't see the best of Callum Styles.
30:31 It would be wrong to suggest otherwise.
30:33 But there were reasons for that.
30:35 My instinct is that I think it's probably unlikely that Sunderland would sign him.
30:38 However, from my understanding, it's not a huge fee.
30:42 He has a release clause in his contract, but the fee that Sunderland agreed in January
30:47 is significantly lower than that.
30:49 So I think the argument is they don't have to make a decision yet.
30:52 So why would you?
30:53 Because you might appoint a new head coach who looks at Callum Styles and goes,
30:56 I actually really like him.
30:57 I think he would suit my team and ultimately he can play in three or four positions.
31:02 So I get the impression that it's just sort of keeping that option open in case a new
31:06 head coach potentially comes in and really wants to do it.
31:09 But it does feel quite unlikely, I would suggest.
31:13 But yeah, I feel for him because I don't know the environment.
31:17 One of the things that Sunderland used to be really good at before the second half of
31:20 last season was creating a really stable environment for players to get some consistency and recover
31:25 from potentially bad loans or bad moves elsewhere in their career.
31:30 It was the opposite of that for Styles.
31:31 So yeah, I feel a bit harsher for him.
31:34 I would be surprised if they triggered that option.
31:35 I'd be really surprised.
31:37 I think if it happens, it'll be because, like I say, a new head coach has come in and said,
31:41 actually, do you know what?
31:42 This is a good deal and I will get some good use out of him.
31:49 Ellis Taylor announced his leaving the club as well, Phil.
31:52 I think he's been at the club since around the age of 11.
31:54 I think he's 21, 22 now.
31:57 He then went and scored a hat-trick against Reading in the Premier League Two semi-final last night after it had been revealed that he was leaving the club.
32:06 Consummate professional.
32:07 I have a lot of thoughts on this, actually.
32:10 Great grafter, hard worker, but I'll let you go first, Phil.
32:14 I still ultimately think that despite the hat-trick, it's probably best that Ellis Taylor does actually go elsewhere and play senior men's football.
32:22 I think he'd struggle to break into the Championship as it stands with Sunderland,
32:28 but I really do think that he's got a career in the EFL and perhaps could make it to the Championship at some point.
32:33 Just needs to drop down.
32:35 He needs to play every week in the league in a senior environment.
32:38 He showed against Reading that there's a lot of quality there.
32:43 Yeah, I agree with you.
32:44 I think sometimes we always view these decisions as really binary, as in a club makes a decision about whether a player is good enough or not.
32:52 Actually, the reality is there's a lot of other things going on.
32:56 One of the things about Sunderland is we all have our thoughts on the model and the strategy and stuff,
33:00 but I think we can all agree that there's people with a lot of youth development experience in there,
33:05 and there is a genuine will to push young players into the team if they're ready for it.
33:11 I think with Taylor, I just think it's the right time to move on and have a fresh start.
33:18 Ultimately, he's 21 and he hasn't played enough senior football.
33:22 A player of his age should have more senior appearances than he does.
33:26 Now, there are reasons why that hasn't happened that aren't his fault.
33:29 He went to Hartlepool at an absolutely terrible time.
33:32 The club was in a bit of a mess.
33:34 The manager changed, they brought in someone, Keith Curl, who changed the system.
33:38 I don't think he was ever really going to lean on young players and give them a chance to iron out their flaws in senior football and develop.
33:45 I think he just got a little bit lost in that period.
33:47 I think everyone knows that he had some tough times off the pitch as well.
33:52 Triggering, giving him an extra year last year has turned out to be an amazing decision for everyone
33:56 because it's given him the environment to bounce back and find some consistency.
34:02 He has done unbelievably well.
34:04 He has just smashed it this year and I've got so much respect for him because he's shown real mental resilience.
34:09 But the reality is, his three main positions are right wing, left back or right back.
34:15 You've got to be honest and say that at the moment, he's not going to be pushing anybody out of the team in those positions at the start of next season.
34:21 So, if you keep him, you risk him then getting to 22, 23 again without having any real senior appearances.
34:29 What he needs is to go somewhere on a contract where they depend on him and he needs to be a leader in that team.
34:34 I think we've seen now from the leadership skills he's shown this season that he's ready to do that.
34:39 So, I just think it's one of those where it's the best thing.
34:42 Ellis needs to go to a club now where they depend on him and where he's going to be a senior player rather than just another loony who comes in and out of the side.
34:50 So, I have mixed feelings on it because he's a talented player and everyone speaks unbelievably well of him.
34:56 I think supporters have seen in this run that the U21s have had, they've seen that character because it's been obvious in his performance that people speak about.
35:03 But I do just feel it's one of those where genuinely you shake hands and say, 'Right, go on, go and do it now'.
35:08 I think he's got the perfect platform and hopefully what he's done over the last few weeks and months is the difference between a National League or a National League North move and maybe an AFL move.
35:19 Maybe he can go and get an AFL move and who knows where he'll be in two years' time.
35:23 But the reality is that at 21, it's time for him to go and do it his own way now.
35:31 And hopefully he's in a really good position to do that.
35:33 But what he's done this year has been amazing.
35:35 You really cannot praise him enough for it.
35:38 I think we're of one mind on that Phil and Ellis Taylor situation, but just to play devil's advocate, in terms of if you're a fan or a layman looking at the U21s,
35:47 you've been up to Ebbleton a couple of times this year.
35:49 You're watching Ellis Taylor, captain of a good Sunderland side.
35:52 He scored 17 goals.
35:53 He's versatile.
35:54 Can play in the three positions that you mentioned.
35:57 Yes, there's a couple of players in front of him, but given what he's shown, there might be some Sunderland fans sitting there thinking, 'Hang on, he's actually performed really well for us and we should be retaining Ellis Taylor'.
36:06 And he could come back to bite us one day.
36:10 Yeah, he could always come back to bite you.
36:11 That's always the risk you take.
36:13 I totally get that.
36:15 I'm not saying it's definitely the right decision.
36:16 We might be sitting there in six months just thinking, 'What on earth have we done?'
36:20 But I also think that we shouldn't necessarily only have the view that Sunderland releasing Ellis Taylor is a bad thing for Ellis Taylor.
36:28 I think that's my point, is we shouldn't view it in that simple, binary terms.
36:33 There is a world in which this is the best thing by Ellis Taylor to help him go out and actually forge a senior career.
36:42 So I totally get it.
36:43 And it might prove to be the wrong decision.
36:45 There's no exact science, but I think it's a really good time for him to go and build on what he's been able to do over the last year.
36:52 Yeah, and I think he'll be an asset for whichever club picks him up.
36:55 I think he's reliable, he's dependable, he's got that attitude.
37:00 He's very understated and will come onto the U21s game last night.
37:04 But his three finishes, particularly the first two with his left foot.
37:07 I mean, a left-footed hat-trick in a semi-final against really good opposition, just brilliant.
37:12 Those first two goals were lovely.
37:13 Captain this side.
37:15 And just on that game against Reading more generally, Phil, Sunderland won the game.
37:22 It was topsy-turvy.
37:23 It was mad.
37:24 It had everything that you wanted.
37:27 And Sunderland are now in a final against Tottenham Hotspur of the Premier League, too.
37:30 For those that don't know, you have your league standings and then it splits off into a play-off.
37:34 So Sunderland have come all the way through, I think, a last-16 of quarters.
37:39 A semi and now they're in the final.
37:41 But for me, when I'm watching that team, they never give up.
37:44 It was the same against West Ham.
37:46 Last-minute equalisers, last-minute winners, resilience in penalties.
37:51 Obviously, Trey Ogunsui getting the winning goal against Reading last night.
37:56 I look at that team and I just think there's five or six players in there that could definitely make it.
38:01 And it's hugely exciting.
38:02 Tommy Watson on the left, Oli Bainbridge just behind him.
38:05 They've created a good little partnership.
38:08 Ogunsui, I mentioned the goalscorer, Taylor there at right-back.
38:11 Brilliant middle-mass knitting things together.
38:13 Harrison Jones, I've been impressed by.
38:15 Adam Richardson, I think, looks like he's got great stature for a keeper.
38:19 There's just so much there, isn't there?
38:20 And it's really, really pleasing to see.
38:22 And what an achievement, really.
38:24 It's been the light at the end of a pretty crap season.
38:28 Yeah, it's a really exciting generation of players.
38:33 And obviously, they're not involved in this team, but you would absolutely chuck Mattie Young and Chris Rigg into that mix.
38:38 It's sort of that team that nearly won the Under-18s.
38:42 And obviously, it doesn't overlap entirely, but sort of close enough,
38:46 that nearly won the Under-18s league last year against Man City.
38:50 Obviously, Mason Kottu was the one who kind of got away from that group, really, at the end of last season.
38:56 But it's a really exciting sort of generation of talent.
38:59 And like you say, the reality is, is that only a few of them are going to make it at Sunderland,
39:03 because that's, you know, just kind of how it goes.
39:06 But you've definitely got a crop of players here
39:08 who are going to go and sort of make it, I think, in the EFL, which is really exciting.
39:12 And the other thing we have to say as well is, like, there's two sides to this.
39:16 One is which it's so exciting that the talent continues to come through the North East.
39:22 And that's ultimately, obviously, these players, the progress they've made isn't necessarily just the impact of the coaches
39:31 and the support and director they've had in the last year or two.
39:33 This is years and years and years of work that's gone into these players.
39:37 And some people won't be at the club anymore.
39:39 Some people who definitely are, what we would say is the current regime for any criticism or flaws that you want to level on them, which is fine.
39:46 They've convinced these players that there could be a pathway to the Sunderland team.
39:50 And they've done that by being really brave and creating the team that they have.
39:53 And that has undoubtedly encouraged some of these lads to stay when they could have gone to a Premier League academy.
39:59 So the club sort of hierarchy, if you like, definitely deserves a bit of credit in what's happened here,
40:03 because this team wouldn't still be together if it wasn't for the player development pathway that's been set out,
40:08 because they would have gone elsewhere.
40:11 Having said that, it's also important that we separate that.
40:14 And it's absolutely a testament to not just the players, but the academy coaching staff who were there,
40:19 no matter who's in charge of ownership or managers or support and directors or anything like that.
40:24 It's an amazing achievement.
40:25 I was actually just thinking, because they've qualified for the Premier League International Cup, haven't they?
40:31 And I was just thinking that the last time I remember Sunderland playing in that tournament
40:37 was when they got beaten heavily by Porto in the final in 2017.
40:43 But if you go back, that was still a brilliant achievement to get there.
40:46 And I'm just getting the team of the players that night.
40:49 - I'm adding a snore up in memory of them.
40:53 - Yeah, but you also had Ethan Robson, Elliot Embelton.
40:56 So it was a really, you know, when you go and look, it was incredible, actually,
41:00 how many players from that generation, if you like, went on to have really good AFL careers.
41:06 And I'm quite hopeful, you know, that we have another generation here
41:10 where some of them are making it at Sunderland, some of them not,
41:13 but they'll leave a real legacy in the game.
41:14 That's a testament to the academy.
41:16 A few of those Porto players have gone on to make it for Porto as well.
41:19 I think Galliano plays regularly for them.
41:22 So that's, you know, yeah, kind of incredible, really.
41:25 And Lyndon Gooch was in that side.
41:26 I'm just looking now.
41:28 Max Stryjec, Donald Love did play.
41:31 Andy Nelson, obviously, was unlucky with injuries,
41:33 but he's kind of rebuilding his career as well.
41:35 So, yeah, that was a really strong team.
41:37 And I'm hopeful that, yeah, yeah, I'm hoping that in, you know, six, seven years,
41:43 we'll look back at this team like that.
41:44 And some of them will have gone on to do what Lyndon Gooch, Elliot Embelton have done.
41:48 Some of them won't, but they'll be forging their careers in the game.
41:51 So it's going to be really exciting, I think, watching the journey of this team.
41:54 And I'm really looking forward to the International Cup,
41:56 because obviously Sunderland are going to be back in that next year
41:59 because of how well they've done this season,
42:00 which is an absolutely amazing achievement.
42:02 So that's going to be something for everyone to look forward to.
42:06 Yeah, they've been a joy to watch.
42:07 And just in terms of that pathway field,
42:09 throwing it forward slightly to next season,
42:12 which players could you see possibly being in and around the squad,
42:15 maybe even making a first-team impact?
42:17 We've seen Tommy Watson make the bench and play for Sunderland, actually, last season.
42:22 Caden Kelly, I think, has made the bench.
42:24 Harrison Jones has made the bench.
42:26 Ollie Bainbridge.
42:27 All of these players could maybe do with a loan at some point,
42:30 but I think, you know, Kelly last night in the No. 10 position
42:34 was absolutely mesmeric in running the game,
42:37 especially in the first sort of 60 minutes.
42:38 It's the first time I've seen him play there.
42:40 Usually plays as a right winger,
42:42 but he really surprised me by how comfortable he looked in that No. 10 position.
42:46 There's definitely quality there in those players that I mentioned.
42:50 Yeah, and, you know, we could well see some of them feature for Sunderland.
42:53 Maybe he's not regularly, but in and out of the side
42:56 with a view to maybe going on loan at some point as well.
43:00 Yeah, I think there definitely will be sort of an evolution of this team
43:04 and that some of these players will have to go on loan next year.
43:07 What will probably happen is that while the squad's still coming together
43:10 at the start of pre-season,
43:11 I think you'll see most, if not all, of these players start pre-season with the first team.
43:17 You know, there's that doubleheader happening again this year, isn't it,
43:20 with Southshields and Gateshead.
43:22 So you need a big squad for the start of pre-season.
43:24 And then it's an open competition, really.
43:26 It's up to any of these players to put their hand up and push themselves from,
43:30 you know, doing what Chris Rigg did basically last year
43:32 and going from being potential, you know, future player
43:35 to actually let's just keep this guy in the squad.
43:38 The ones who do really well on that will probably then go to Spain
43:40 because the squad will still be getting built at that point.
43:43 And then who knows?
43:45 But I do think a lot of these players will have to go out on loan
43:48 because that's the best thing for their future.
43:49 So, like, Cain Kelly maybe has an amazing pre-season
43:53 and plays his way into contention possibly.
43:55 But I also think, like, he's similar to Alice Taylor in that he's an age now
43:58 where he needs senior appearances under his belt.
44:00 He needs to do it in men's football as well.
44:02 So he's someone who I'd be looking at saying, right, OK,
44:05 you know, do pre-season with the first team.
44:08 Let's see what you've got.
44:09 And if you're not fully forcing your way in,
44:11 if Elliot Emberton's made a good comeback from injury,
44:13 if Aushish looks really strong,
44:15 let's get you out on loan to Leipzig or the National League.
44:17 And after six months, you know, we'll reassess.
44:20 But I definitely think there's a few who could potentially be part of the squad
44:23 who are maybe not quite ready for a loan,
44:25 but could have an impact.
44:25 Like, surely Tommy Watson's going to be in and around it in pre-season.
44:29 Olly Bainbridge, I think as well.
44:31 Left-back's obviously a position of real strength if Alisson's certain of it,
44:35 but over the course of pre-season, you know, why not?
44:39 So I definitely think there's a core of these players who I think need to go out on loan.
44:42 Possibly Harrison Jones would be another one who I think is at an age
44:45 where you'll probably want to prove it in men's football.
44:47 So maybe a loan for him as well as Kane and Kelly,
44:49 I think, could be really beneficial.
44:51 But I think you've got a core of players, Ogunseyi, Watson, Bainbridge,
44:57 who I think potentially will stay part of that team next year
45:00 and hopefully push for some senior minutes.
45:02 Maybe we'll see them in a Carabao Cup campaign, things like that.
45:05 So, yeah, I definitely think we'll see two or three of these next season.
45:09 Some will go out on loan, but we shouldn't take that as a reflection of their ability.
45:13 It's just that it'll be the right time for them to actually play regularly in senior football.
45:19 - And the thing is as well about the youth system and the way loans work
45:22 is that if they do come in and impress during pre-season,
45:25 then they're around for the sort of first half of the season.
45:27 There is the opportunity to loan them out in January,
45:29 but there's also the opportunity to loan them to non-league clubs at any time,
45:34 which is always an avenue worth exploring.
45:38 In terms of the goalkeeping situation at the club as well, Phil,
45:40 I find the situations around Adam Richardson and Matty Young really interesting as well.
45:45 Matty Young coming off a brilliant loan at Darlington.
45:48 Richardson was due to go out on loan, but picked up an injury.
45:52 You would think that Sunderland's first team, number two,
45:56 would play for the under-21s predominantly next season.
45:59 They've also retained Kelechi Chibuetsi, the ex-Leicester City goalkeeper.
46:04 He was confirmed as staying in the retained list.
46:06 So there's a lot of goalkeepers at the club that would hint towards maybe Young
46:10 or Richardson going out on loan.
46:12 The flip side to that is a lot will depend on Anthony Patterson,
46:16 whether he stays or goes.
46:17 It's not looking massively likely that he goes at the moment.
46:20 Teams would have to pay a premium.
46:22 There's then Alex Bass and Nathan Bishop,
46:24 which one of them is going to stay and be number two.
46:26 They might both leave.
46:27 Sunderland would then have to bring another number two in.
46:30 So there's a lot of moving parts in that goalkeeping circle at Sunderland.
46:35 It's very interesting to see how that develops,
46:37 because there's nothing set in stone yet.
46:38 You've mentioned on this podcast before,
46:40 Matty Young could be involved in pre-season.
46:42 He could come in and have a blinder.
46:43 He's got that pedigree and then you never know, do you?
46:46 Well, I think the plan at the moment would be for Young and Richardson to both go out on loan.
46:50 Both of them have had a taste of it, and I think they've done well.
46:53 And they're both probably of an age now where,
46:56 do you really want them playing regular under-21s football?
46:59 Probably not. It's probably time to get them out playing National League,
47:02 National League North, wherever it is.
47:05 You know, Alan Nixon reported on the weekend that Matty Young's been linked
47:08 with Notts County, hasn't he?
47:09 Which potentially to me seems like a brilliant move.
47:12 You know, it's obviously following in Anthony Patterson's footsteps,
47:15 League Two level, but in a team that plays pretty good football,
47:18 that's the kind of thing where you just go,
47:19 yeah, that's the right one for Matty Young where he is now.
47:23 And I think it's similar with Richardson.
47:25 So what I think you're probably seeing when you mentioned there's a number of goalkeepers at the club,
47:29 you're probably seeing an expectation that Young and Richardson both aren't going to be around next year
47:34 and that they're going to be out on loan.
47:36 And they're sort of making sure there's enough goalkeepers in the club to keep all the sides strong.
47:41 I suspect Bas will go. He's had a really good year at AFC Wimbledon.
47:44 So I think there'll be teams, probably AFC Wimbledon themselves, who are really keen to sign him.
47:50 And then it will be down to, as you say, whether Bishop wants to push for first-team football and leave,
47:54 or whether he's happy developing under Patterson for another year.
47:58 So, yeah, there are a lot of moving parts to this one.
48:01 But as I'm sitting here now, if you forced me to make a prediction,
48:04 I would guess that Bas would depart permanently from the AFL and Young and Richardson will both go out on loan.
48:12 Yeah, that would be my guess, but we'll see what transpires.
48:16 A very quick aside, Norwich City releasing Danny Bartfield.
48:20 He's going to be 34 this summer.
48:23 He's gone there and it hasn't really worked out for him.
48:25 So 17 appearances, I think, for Norwich City or something like that.
48:30 You always get these comments when a much-liked former Sunderland player leaves another club,
48:36 the 'one last dance' comments.
48:38 But, you know, just a sort of reminder, really, that Sunderland could maybe do with a little bit more depth.
48:43 Obviously, Dan Ballard and O9 have nailed that Jenson Seal to come back from injury.
48:47 Nectar Trinus as well. He's played a midfield for Hibbs.
48:50 We don't know what the future holds for him.
48:51 But, yeah, it's telling, isn't it, that Danny Bath's name is still on the name of...
48:56 It's still on Sunderland fans' lips, you know, sort of a year after his departure.
49:02 Yeah, I feel for him a bit, really, because it just...
49:05 I don't think he was in any great rush to leave Sunderland, really.
49:07 I think he would have liked to have stayed.
49:09 Sunderland's view is obviously like, you know, you're not going to be a first-choice starter,
49:13 so why don't you try and go and get a longer contract elsewhere?
49:16 But in reality, he's kind of just ended up back where he started,
49:19 because it's obviously not really worked out in Norwich now they've released him.
49:21 So I think by overriding the motion there, I think it's a bit of a shame, really,
49:24 because I just don't think it's worked out for Bart, really.
49:27 I'm not sure, in the end, although I could understand some of the logic,
49:31 I'm not sure the club have particularly done brilliantly well by him in the end either,
49:35 because, like I say, it's not as if he's now got greater security than he would have had at Sunderland.
49:39 But I think the reality is, like, to be fair, I don't think you can massively quibble with the decision
49:44 to go with Ondaer and Ballard this season.
49:46 I thought that was one of the areas of the pitch where, for the most part,
49:49 Sunderland were fine, if not pretty strong.
49:51 You've also got Leo Gjelda to add into that.
49:55 Forgot about him.
49:56 He very much says that he's a centre-half rather than a full-back.
50:00 Sunderland recruited him knowing that he was primarily a centre-half.
50:03 It just so happened at the time, obviously, both the left-backs were injured.
50:06 So I expect we'll see a bit of him in pre-season.
50:09 I do think it's a position where Sunderland will recruit, potentially,
50:13 depending on how Triantis and Gjelda do in pre-season,
50:15 because you could make an argument that if they don't look to have progressed hugely,
50:20 you need more cover in case Ondaer and Ballard get injured or suspended.
50:24 But if they did that, I would expect them to go out and recruit another young up-and-coming player.
50:29 Do you know what I mean? I don't think they're going to go out and get
50:32 a 30-year-old plus player for that position.
50:35 No, and I suppose Sealt could be...
50:36 Well, he's going to be out for quite a little bit of time longer now, isn't he?
50:40 Because that was quite a serious injury just casting him in line back.
50:44 Yeah, that's going to be in the new year, but it's not as severe as the Huggins, I don't think.
50:48 So, yeah, you need cover for this season, but you also don't want to pack the squad
50:53 because you very much expect towards the second half of the season or the final quarter of the season
50:58 that Sealt will be back and pushing and even investing in Sealt.
51:00 So you've got to give an opportunity as well to get back up.
51:03 So I have to say that, although I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the window,
51:07 Sunderland had signed one central defender and maybe loaned out a Triantis or something like that.
51:14 My gut tells me that at the moment that's not going to be seen by them as a huge priority position.
51:19 I think they'll be looking at Ballard and O'Neill as the two for next year.
51:23 And I think they're pretty happy with that part of the pitch.
51:27 Brilliant. Well, we've done 52 minutes nearly there, covered a lot of ground.
51:32 So we'll probably wrap it up there.
51:33 You can watch this podcast over on YouTube, over on Shots TV as well.
51:37 It'll be available on all podcast platforms.
51:40 Thank you for tuning in.
51:41 Head over to the Sunderland Echo website for all of the latest transfer news
51:45 ahead of the window opening next month.
51:47 And of course, the latest on Sunderland's next head coach, Hunt.
51:52 Thank you once again for listening.
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