Jordan Henderson to Sunderland reports plus season so far verdict
Jordan Henderson to Sunderland reports plus season so far verdict
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00:00Hello, welcome to The Royal Podcast.
00:29I'm James Copley here from the Sunderland Echo, joined by my colleague Phil Smith.
00:34During this international break, Phil, what have you been up to?
00:37I feel like I ask you this every international break and it's getting more difficult to come
00:41up with fresh answers.
00:42Yeah, what have I been up to?
00:45Not a lot actually.
00:47I am re-watching all the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings films, which I do every year.
00:52So that's a bit of a tradition in our house, which has been good.
00:56And took a greyhound to the lakes, my new greyhound, so that was absolutely glorious
01:01to be fair.
01:02No, I've actually quite enjoyed it.
01:03And obviously yesterday I was at the Derby at the Stadium of Light, which was a, well,
01:08it was really frustrating in the end.
01:11Fantastic to see 15,000 in the Stadium of Light, obviously.
01:13I think, I'm hoping this is the start of a really positive chapter in terms of women's
01:19football in Sunderland, because it was a great atmosphere, frustrated that Sunderland, I
01:25think they probably deserved a point.
01:27And it's not been the start of the season that we were hoping for, but I think we'll
01:30be OK.
01:31I still have a lot of belief in the quality of that squad and it's been a pretty tough,
01:35fixture-wise it's been a really tough start of the season.
01:37So I'm certainly not panicking yet.
01:40I still think it could be a good season for the lasses.
01:43But yeah, so I've been busy, to be fair.
01:46I don't think you were expecting an answer that long.
01:47I think I've done well, though.
01:50Yeah, you have done well.
01:52Just on the women's side of things, Phil, what do you put this slow start to the season
01:56down to?
01:57Because there was a couple of exits in the summer, obviously Claudia Moan, high profile,
02:02going to Newcastle.
02:03She played yesterday against her childhood club, but it wasn't really an off-season of
02:10flux like it was the season before.
02:13I think we all feared the summer before last that Sunderland might struggle.
02:16It actually turned out to be the opposite.
02:18There was a real sort of re-energisation of Sunderland and they obviously went on to
02:23do really well in the Championship.
02:25This season, it just feels like it's stalled a little bit.
02:29I've got full faith in Mel Rae, by the way, who was a ridiculously good operator at this
02:33level.
02:34I'm sure Sunderland will be fine, but it just feels like that momentum has just stalled
02:37a little bit.
02:38Yeah, I think that's a fair point.
02:42I think there's two elements to it.
02:44One is from the Sunderland perspective, and one is, as we always say when we discuss men's-women's
02:49academy football, it's about what your rivals are doing as well.
02:53And I think what we've seen this summer is, I think we've seen an absolute huge amount
02:56of investment into the top six clubs, probably, in the division.
03:02And I think already the table is pretty much, apart from one or two exceptions, shout out
03:07to Derham who started the season unbelievably well, I think the table reflects that.
03:11And I think that it is difficult at the moment for Sunderland to keep pace with teams like
03:16Newcastle, who we all know have invested incredibly heavily in their side.
03:20I think Demi Stokes, playing at left-back, I thought she was the best player on the pitch
03:24yesterday.
03:25And that's just where the reality of where Newcastle are at and where Sunderland are at.
03:29You look at London City's takeover, who Sunderland actually beat the other week, which was an
03:33incredible result, the investment and the calibre of play they're signing.
03:37I do think there's an element of concern about Sunderland competing with these teams.
03:42The other side of it is not to panic.
03:43It has been a really, really, really tough fixture list to start.
03:46And I think if you look at the fixtures around November and December, I expect Sunderland
03:50to pick up points.
03:51I think that quite a few of the players in the team at the moment just aren't quite yet
03:56at the level that they were last season.
03:58I think that's a fair comment.
04:00But I've genuinely not got any huge concerns.
04:03I expect Sunderland to pull away from the bottom.
04:05I expect them to pick up results.
04:06I think they've got a decent squad.
04:08I don't think at the moment they're a top four or five team in this league because of
04:12the money that's being spent by the clubs.
04:15In the long run, that's a big question and a task for the ownership, really, as to whether
04:21they can find the resource or whether they'll commit the resource to push them.
04:25And obviously, we want both sides of the club to be sustainable.
04:28But there is obviously going to be a challenge competing with these teams in the long run.
04:31But I'm not panicking about the results so far.
04:32It's been a tough fixture list.
04:34But apart from the opening day of the season, which by the team's own admission was going
04:38to be shambles, they've been competitive in most games.
04:41I do think they'll finish mid-table.
04:44Absolutely.
04:45Full coverage of the women's side of things over at the Sunderland Echo website.
04:49Phil was at the game and produced a live blog, if you want to catch up with anything, and
04:54also some player ratings as well and reactions from Mel Rae.
04:57So head over to the website for all that good stuff.
04:59We're going to have a little look at Sunderland's nine-game championship season so far.
05:05We're going to do things as we always do this time of year, our highlights, our lowlights,
05:09biggest frustrations, best player, best young player, player we'd like to see more of, all
05:15of that good stuff.
05:16But we're going to start on a couple of newsy items first as well.
05:20Jordan Henderson, Phil, being linked with a return to Sunderland or the championship
05:26or the Premier League, depending on which reports you read.
05:31He's over in Ajax at the moment, obviously had that high-profile move to Saudi Arabia.
05:37I think there's a lot to say about this.
05:39Where are you with it at the moment in terms of Jordan Henderson to Sunderland?
05:47Yeah, I pleaded with you not to discuss this on the podcast this morning because I think
05:52it's such a big topic and one that I have very mixed emotions on, I think.
05:58Listen, two years ago, it would have been like a dream for all of us, I think, as Sunderland
06:02fans, wouldn't it?
06:05I think that ultimately, from my perspective, I do think from a footballing perspective,
06:11this is basically, it's still a bit of a no-brainer for me.
06:14I do genuinely think that.
06:16I don't put it in the same category, for example, as Jermaine Defoe, who Defoe hadn't played.
06:21He'd been pretty much out in the cold at ranges.
06:25We saw very quickly when he arrived here that it was going to take a long time to get up
06:30to full fitness.
06:32As it happened, he didn't feel that was going to be possible, and so he retired, and that
06:35all ended up being a bit of a shambles.
06:36Henderson, ultimately, has been playing at a pretty decent level.
06:39I know he's not in Ajax, he's starting XI every week, which is why these reports, it's
06:44kind of been floated, I think, to see if there's interest to bring him back to the Premier
06:48League or the top of the Championship.
06:51I think that physically, he will be at a decent level.
06:54I think we all know the way he looks after himself as well and the professionalism he
06:57has, so I think he can contribute.
07:00Honestly, I have to say, hand on heart, I think it would be unbelievable for players
07:04like Dan Neil, Joe Bellingham, Chris Raig to have Jordan Henderson around.
07:09I don't think he's the kind of player where it's going to be an issue if he's not playing
07:1390 minutes three times a week.
07:15I think he would have that maturity and that professionalism to accept the role that he
07:20would have in the side and the squad.
07:21I think the players would learn so much off him and I think it would be good.
07:24I strongly imagine he has coaching slash management ambitions himself and I think that would be
07:30a natural sort of halfway house, if you like.
07:33So, personally, I think from a football perspective, I think it would be a good thing.
07:39The big thing that's changed from when I started making my point there from a couple of years
07:42ago is that I think people would be uncomfortable about it because some of the fans will be
07:48listening to this saying they don't care that he went and played in Saudi Arabia.
07:51They're not bothered.
07:53His decision, his career, which I respect.
07:57And a lot of fans will probably be saying, well, hang on, I've criticised what's happened
08:02up the road at my local rivals and so I don't think that's right.
08:06And therefore, I have to say that I disagree with the decision that Jordan Henderson made.
08:12Personally, I'll never be able to understand that decision to go and play in Saudi Arabia
08:17at that stage of his career.
08:19It'll never make sense to me.
08:22And so that leaves me with, you know, I would share the sort of the reservations of some
08:28Sunderland supporters while respecting that, you know, everyone has the right to do what
08:31they want with their life and their career.
08:34I suspect that won't be an issue for Sunderland.
08:36Remember that they played a friendly against the Saudi Arabian team during the winter break
08:41when the World Cup was held in winter.
08:43So I really don't think that the ownership will be having any reservations about that
08:47side of things if they feel a deal is possible.
08:48So I think, and from a footballing perspective, I would say that I do, I can see, I think
08:54this would be more beneficial and problematic.
08:56But I do think that the whole mood has changed a lot, really, from when we may have been
09:02discussing this two years ago, saying it was a dream scenario.
09:04And I certainly understand why some Sunderland fans aren't sure about it.
09:08We ran a poll, didn't we, a couple of weeks ago on the Echo site.
09:12I think it was about 60% in favour.
09:15And that seems about right.
09:16I think there will be a lot of people who feel uncomfortable with it, but still respect
09:19what Henderson's done in his career.
09:22A lot of people who are just in favour of it and aren't really bothered by the decision
09:25he made to go and play in Saudi Arabia.
09:26Some people who, footballing reasons, will have concerns.
09:29Yeah, it's a really, really tricky one, really.
09:31A lot of mixed emotions, I think.
09:34It's a really tough landscape and a really tough argument, isn't it?
09:37Just that general topic of Saudi influence in sport, because we've just had Riyadh season
09:47in boxing.
09:48There's Live Golf.
09:50There's Saudi Arabian dealings with the United Kingdom government.
09:54There's links to the British royal family, all of that sort of stuff.
09:58So it doesn't feel like any aspect of life is immune to it.
10:01Whether or not you agree with it is another matter.
10:05I think what stung really about Jordan Henderson's move to Saudi Arabia was that he had himself
10:12put himself out there as a champion for gay rights.
10:17That move was sort of very much at odds with that, and that's coming from somebody who's
10:22not a member of that community.
10:24So I can't imagine really what that would have felt like for some people.
10:29I think he was badly advised.
10:30I think he made a bad decision.
10:31The interviews afterwards that he did, I think there was an excellent one in The Athletic
10:35with Adam Craft, and I think it did start to dawn on him what had occurred, and perhaps
10:42that he'd let a lot of people down.
10:44It almost feels, Phil, a little bit like, in terms of Jordan Henderson, the man, Jordan
10:50Henderson, the player, that this potential move to Sunderland, I mean, God knows whether
10:56it'll happen or not, almost like he needs it to rehabilitate his career, in a sense,
11:02and rehabilitate his image, to just go somewhere for the love of it.
11:06I'm sure he would be paid by Sunderland quite well, obviously, but let's not beat around
11:11the bush.
11:11It would likely be a pay cut from Ajax, and it would likely definitely be a pay cut from
11:16what he was receiving at Liverpool and Saudi Arabia, to go somewhere, to finish his career
11:21at the club where it started, to potentially help lift him to the Premier League, to become
11:25that sort of ambassador to Chris Rigg or Joe Bellingham and Dan Neal as well.
11:31It feels like he could really use that, whether you agree that should happen or not is a different
11:36matter, but in terms of Jordan Henderson, it feels like he could really do with that
11:41in terms of his career.
11:44Yeah, I think it works better than the Defoe thing did, for all the reasons that I said.
11:49I think it would be, I can see the real positives for Henderson in this, in terms of maybe his
11:54future coaching, managerial career.
11:57I still suspect he would be able to contribute a fair amount on the pitch at this level.
12:02We've talked for about 18 months, two years about someone not having enough experience
12:06and depth, so we probably can't sit here and say, oh, don't go out and get Jordan Henderson
12:11with the titles he's won and what have you.
12:14So I definitely, I think if you were just saying from a pure football perspective, I
12:20suspect it would be very difficult for someone to do for the financial reasons you've just
12:23outlined.
12:24I think if he was available, would there be a Premier League side towards the bottom
12:28who would think, what an opportunity to get a player of his professionalism and attitude
12:32in to boost morale around the place.
12:33I find it very difficult to see someone actually getting it over the line, to be honest.
12:38From a football perspective, I'm in favour.
12:41I still think that decision you made to go to Saudi Arabia, while I respect it, it's
12:46not my place to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't do with their lives and it's
12:49a short career for a footballer.
12:51I still feel ultimately that's unresolved, if you like, and so I can understand why some
12:59Sunderland fans have reservations about it and I think realistically it would be something
13:03that maybe would have to be resolved if he did come back.
13:09So that's kind of where I feel about it.
13:10I'm not as comfortable with it as I would have been once upon a time when I would have
13:13been very excited about it.
13:14I do think if Sunderland were able to pull it off, and that's a huge if, I can't stress
13:19that enough really.
13:20I think football-wise it would be beneficial that I would do it, but I do still think that
13:26decision has left a sour taste for a lot of people, which I completely understand, and
13:31I think that would leave some...
13:33Yeah, I think that's still unresolved.
13:34I think that's the best way to put it.
13:36We won't dwell on this topic too much longer because we want to get into the season review,
13:41but you mentioned comparisons to Defoe there, and this is me strictly playing Devil's advocate,
13:49I was going to say there, but we'll use that.
13:52We'll start coining that term.
13:53Actually, that's better than the original.
13:55So just to present the flip side to the argument in terms of the football side, and I'm not
13:59saying I necessarily agree with this, but you mentioned the comparison with Defoe.
14:04The comparison my mind would go back to would maybe be Grant Ledbetter.
14:09Obviously, Jordan Henderson, undoubtedly a better player than Grant Ledbetter, but Grant
14:13Ledbetter came to Sunderland, and yes, the landscape has shifted slightly at Sunderland.
14:17They're in a different division.
14:18He came at around 34-35 from memory, and I was over the moon with that signing, but in
14:27hindsight, which is always 20-20, is that the sort of signing that Sunderland needed?
14:32Sunderland's midfield seemed to do a little bit better after Grant Ledbetter left, and
14:36I'm loath to present that point of view because I'm a massive, huge Grant Ledbetter fan, and
14:41I got caught up in the emotion of that move like everybody else, and he undoubtedly contributed
14:46for Sunderland on the field as well.
14:48The respect I have towards him for playing so soon after a bereavement in the play-off
14:53semi-final against Portsmouth is incredible, but the point I'm making is, from a football
14:59perspective, does Henderson signing slightly block Sunderland's exciting midfield options,
15:06and is there a comparison maybe to Ledbetter in terms of, yes, hindsight's always 20-20,
15:11but it does fill your squad up as well?
15:13Yeah, I think, well, the one thing it says, we have no idea by the time January rolls
15:18around where Salih Samed is going to be, so he's yet to kick a ball.
15:22All the indications from before the international break from Regis Lebris were that he wasn't
15:27going to be ready for this weekend.
15:29You know, if he's not ready to return this weekend, there has to be a question about
15:33how many games he's going to play before the November international break.
15:36Now, if he comes back after the November international break, and he's been regularly
15:40in contribute over the festive period, and there is a precedent for that, because if
15:45you remember, Michoud barely kicked a ball before kind of November, December time, and
15:50then was a really good player.
15:51So, but I think that's a big question, because if Samed's playing regularly in contribute,
15:55and if Rigg, Bellingham, Brown and Neal are all still fit, then there probably isn't a
15:59huge gap for a player of Henderson's sort of profile.
16:03Now, if Samed cannot get fit for whatever reason, if he can't get past these injury
16:06issues, I'm not saying that will happen, you just don't know, then there's definitely
16:10a role for Henderson, isn't there?
16:11Because we've seen at the moment that the four players are playing a huge amount of
16:14minutes, and there's not a lot of variety for an alternative to Dan in that forward
16:18midfield position.
16:19So, I think that's one thing to watch.
16:21The difference with Ledbetter, I actually think Ledbetter, in a lot of ways, was a good
16:24signing.
16:25I think he contributed a lot.
16:26I thought his performances were good.
16:27He scored a lot of important goals, and he played a part.
16:31Ledbetter could have been a brilliant signing if someone's other midfield option had been
16:35if someone's other midfield options were like Joe or Dan.
16:39If he had legs around him, if he had the players who could do the things that Saviour's
16:43career couldn't do, I think probably the argument you could make at the time when
16:47Ledbetter came back was that you already had Catamoula, and so maybe he didn't have the
16:52right blend in midfield, rather than necessarily it being an issue with Ledbetter.
16:56I think Ledbetter showed in his performances, and what he brought off the pitch on and off,
17:01as well as on it, that he still had a lot to contribute.
17:04That's why Ledbetter and Defoe, I think this is slightly different, because what you're
17:07doing is you're adding something different to a successful formula, and I think that
17:14should be a positive, whereas Defoe and Ledbetter were used as the answer, really, to parts
17:20of the pitch where, at the time, some of them were failing, and they were realistically
17:23never going to be dancing by themselves if Henderson wouldn't be coming as the Saviour
17:28of someone who's midfield.
17:30So that's where I view it slightly differently on that point.
17:32I do think a lot would rest on Sam Edd.
17:35If Sam Edd's playing fit and he's in form, then you start looking a little bit more and
17:40go, well, hang on, do we need Henderson?
17:42Is he going to play much at all?
17:44In which case, is that going to be a good thing to bring him back?
17:46So I do think there's a lot of time between now and January, personally, and I think one
17:52of the interesting things moving forward is going to be Sam Edd.
17:56Nicely put, Phil, nicely put.
17:57We're going to move on from the Jordan Henderson chatter, and we're going to look at our little
18:04mini review of Sunderland's season so far.
18:06Obviously, nine games in, Sunderland top of the league.
18:08We're going to run through our highlight of the season so far, our biggest frustration,
18:13our favourite goal, our player of the season so far, our young player of the season so
18:17far, the player or players we would like to see more of, and mark out of ten.
18:23We'll run through Phil, we'll run through yourself, and then we'll also get some
18:27of your thoughts from social media.
18:29So, Phil, we will start on the highlight for you during Sunderland's season so far.
18:38Yeah, it was funny doing this because initially, because it was the most recent one, my head
18:43went straight to obviously Melia's error in the scenes inside the stadium, but I can't
18:48put that one forward because obviously my experience as a journalist is completely
18:51different to the fans, and the Wi-Fi wasn't working very well that night in the stadium,
18:55and that was just absolute chaos.
18:57I couldn't get connected.
18:59I was trying to, obviously, a goal that late meant that I had to rewrite my match report.
19:04I was trying to work out what actually happened so you can sort of report accurately.
19:07It was just total chaos.
19:09Actually, it wasn't until I got home and I poured a little whiskey and I actually sat
19:12and watched it back, and I saw all the limbs in the stadium, and I saw the celebration
19:16of the players and the fans.
19:17It actually took me that bit of time to sort of actually appreciate what had happened and
19:21sort of enjoy it, really.
19:23So I don't think I can put that one forward.
19:25So I think I would probably have to go for the Sheffield Wednesday game, I think, you
19:29know, the first half there where someone just completely ran them up.
19:31Because I think it's easy now to, in hindsight, you know, you remember that it hadn't been
19:36very long ago that Sheffield had completely turned Sunderland over on the final day of
19:40the season.
19:41We all came into that game thinking Sheffield were going to be a really, really tough opponent.
19:44Sunderland had won their opening day of the season against Cardiff, which was a great
19:47result, but they hadn't played brilliantly.
19:49So I don't think we came away thinking, wow, we've really seen the start of something here.
19:53So for Sunderland to go toe-to-toe, be really brave with how they're pressed in that game
19:58against a side who we all thought were going to be a really tough opponent and just completely
20:01blow them away in the first half an hour, really, was absolutely just exhilarating.
20:07And I still think that was kind of the most exciting sort of part, thing I've seen this
20:13season.
20:13I think the other thing I would chuck in there would be Mundell's goal against Burnley,
20:17in terms of a highlight, just because I think we'd fretted for the best part of the year,
20:23really, about Jack Clark going.
20:25And the fact that he would go and then the next day, pretty much, the young lad could
20:30just take his place and just score this brilliant goal and just put in a brilliant performance
20:34against Burnley.
20:35I thought that was amazing.
20:36But I think on balance, I would go for that first half an hour against Sheffield because
20:40it just felt like we were turning the page on what had been a pretty rubbish sort of
20:442024 until that point.
20:48Yeah, that Meslier howler was good.
20:50I was sharing your frustrations with the Wi-Fi around that time.
20:55I didn't have as much to do on the final whistle as you, and as such, sort of nearly
20:59broke the golden rule of the press box, which is don't celebrate because it was so unexpected
21:05that it was like, ah, and I sort of had to catch myself and return to work.
21:10I actually had, for this one, Phil, Burnley, I was really, really pleased with the Burnley
21:16performance.
21:17And I think the way Sunderland ground that out towards the end, obviously, with Dan Neal
21:21getting sent off late on, you sort of feared that there could be a late equaliser coming
21:25after that moment.
21:25But Sunderland controlled that really well.
21:28And that was the first time during the season so far, Phil, that we sort of looked at each
21:32other and went, hang on a minute, I think there might be a team here.
21:35So that, for me, was a hugely pleasing sort of moment was that final whistle against Burnley.
21:42Yeah, definitely.
21:43And I think, you know, as I was saying, the Mundell thing was a big part of that, wasn't
21:47it?
21:48And what he's done this season has just been incredible so far.
21:50So, yeah, I think generally you could expand that and just say the home form has been a
21:55real tonic this season.
21:57I think it's something that we've kind of been frustrated with for a long time, really,
22:01with Sunderland is they haven't really made the stadium that kind of focus, if you think
22:05of it.
22:05It hasn't been the asset that it should be to the team, really.
22:09And I think that, you know, what Lebris has done has been really impressive in that he's
22:13harnessed the crowd in that, you know, that first half an hour against Sheffield Wednesday,
22:18just completely blown away.
22:19At times we've been really aggressive, pressed really high and really got the crowd behind
22:22the team.
22:23But he's been flexible about it as well.
22:26And he hasn't maybe fallen into the traps of the past of, you know, he's been happy
22:30at times to say, well, look, one of the things we've had, problems we've had at times is
22:33breaking down the low block at home.
22:35You know, and there's been times where he's invited the opposition onto Sunderland, hasn't
22:38he, and sort of added another string to Sunderland's attacking bow that way.
22:43So, I think more broadly, the fact that you turn up at the Stadium Alliance and kind of
22:47Sunderland have consistently produced some good performances, I think that's a big,
22:50big turnaround from where we were last year.
22:54Absolutely.
22:55Let's head to social media.
22:56Jordan Ramsey says his highlight was the first 25 minutes against Sheffield Wednesday.
23:01I mean, that was superb, being three in a loop.
23:03It was brilliant, as you mentioned, Phil.
23:05Stuart Tench says Sheffield Wednesday first half battering as well.
23:10Michael Bowers agrees with us both.
23:12He says Burnley, Clarksdale happened around that game, obviously with Mundell's goals
23:16as well.
23:17Ethan Todd references the Sheffield Wednesday first half as well.
23:22Nick Wilson says the Burnley performance.
23:23Michael Dunn agrees, and he says that the home form generally.
23:28And Matthew Powell says the overall team performance generally during this season as
23:33well.
23:34So, we will move on to the second category, Phil.
23:36Biggest frustration.
23:38I have a couple for this.
23:39I think, obviously, the Plymouth and Watford games sort of, given the performance levels,
23:43feel like Sunderland could have got something out of both of those games.
23:47And then for me as well, the big one, the injuries to Ballard and Alisi in particular
23:54as well, who had started the season so brightly.
23:56That's been sort of offset by the arrival of Chris Meppam in his form and the form of
24:01Luke O'Neill actually as well, who I'm sure we'll come on to later on.
24:04But I really felt like something good was starting to happen with Alisi as well.
24:08To be ruled out until the November international break is a shame.
24:11You know, credit to Sunderland for planning around that, and obviously Meppam's come in.
24:17But no less gutting for him as well.
24:18And I think he's a player we all like as well.
24:20I think he's a person we all like as well.
24:23Yeah, I think that's a great shout.
24:25And I would go with Alisi's injury as well, because I think that, you know, it was really,
24:30it was actually exciting to see how quickly he was developing, because we hadn't really
24:33seen him play much at centre-half.
24:34And I think in pre-season, it was like he was doing OK, but, you know, he didn't look
24:38100% comfortable.
24:39And then he was just getting better and better.
24:41And by the time he got his injury, he was playing at like an incredibly exciting high
24:45level, I think.
24:45And Labreece even, you know, he remarked in one of his press conferences about how much
24:50Alisi was developing from game to game and how much he was beginning to understand what
24:53Labreece wanted for him.
24:54I think you could chuck, although it's very different to Alisi, I think you could chuck
24:57Pavada in there.
24:59Like, we all knew it was a bit of a gamble because he'd missed a lot of football in the
25:02past.
25:03And at the same time, he'd finished the season really well with Sheffield.
25:06And he seemed like quite an exciting signing in a lot of ways.
25:09So I think his persistent injuries have been a real frustration.
25:12And the fact that realistically, I don't think we're going to see him until after the November
25:15international break, certainly not in a significant way.
25:17I would chuck that in there.
25:18But I think probably the main one I would go for is the Watford game, because I just
25:22thought by and large, that was such a rubbish performance.
25:25And Plymouth 1 was frustrating, but Plymouth played well.
25:29They had a real goal.
25:30Sissoko was brilliant for them.
25:32And if you actually look at what Plymouth have done since, they've been really good
25:35at home.
25:35So that one is kind of one of those where on another day, someone would have won it
25:383-2.
25:39On this day, they lost it 3-2.
25:40I was kind of at peace with that one.
25:42Watford, I just didn't think they turned up.
25:43And I know that, yes, OK, it was 1-1 when Daniel gave the foul away, and that's what
25:47drew the headlines.
25:48But someone didn't turn up in that game.
25:50They could have been 2-3-0 behind in the first half an hour.
25:53They did rally a bit to equalise and then play quite well in the second half.
25:57But I just thought that was a game they totally let pass them by.
26:00And that was a real frustration for me.
26:02That's the one, like, when I was doing these categories, I think that just came straight
26:05in my head, because that was just such a disappointing afternoon.
26:07I think you can, away from home, I think you can lose games like the Plymouth one.
26:10I think it happens.
26:11The Watford one was just such a, yeah, just for me, like, just such an all-round sort
26:16of disappointing performance.
26:18Absolutely.
26:19Matthew Powell agrees on social media.
26:21His biggest frustration is dropping silly points away from home.
26:25Michael Dunn says his was conceding late at Plymouth and Watford agree with that.
26:30Nick Wilson dropping points late in two away games.
26:36An account called Savory Dip, which is a great name for a Twitter account, says his biggest
26:43frustration was losing to Plymouth.
26:44Ethan Todd agrees, says the Plymouth loss.
26:47Michael Bowers concurs, says late errors against Plymouth and Watford.
26:53Stu Tench as well, switching off against Plymouth.
26:55So, yeah, a lot of frustration around those Plymouth and Watford games, but probably actually
26:59a sort of a testament to how high Sunderland have set the standards in these opening nine
27:05games as well, I would say.
27:08But let's move on to the next category, favourite goal, Phil.
27:13There are a couple of contenders, but mine's pretty set in stone.
27:16I'll let you go first on this one.
27:19Well, I know which one you're going to go for, and it's totally fair, so I'll go for
27:22the other one.
27:22I'm going to go with Job against Derby, because I just thought that was such a sweet.
27:27I love those goals where the moment it leaves his foot, it's just not going anywhere other
27:32than the top corner.
27:34And I just thought, and that was exactly as well, because that was exactly shaping up
27:37kind of the kind of game where sometimes Sunderland have come up short in the last couple
27:41of years, where they've dropped points midweek at home to teams who, you know, inverted
27:46commas, Sunderland should be beating, you know.
27:48And actually, Sunderland started that game quite poorly, didn't they?
27:51And you're just kind of going, oh, is this going to be one of those nights?
27:53And I think for him just to produce a goal of that quality, and it was just aesthetically
27:58so pleasing.
27:59Picks it up and, you know, you have that little moment, go on, go on then, and then he hits
28:03it and it's just...
28:04Well, I think the most pleasing thing for me about that goal, obviously the strike was
28:09class, but it was the shoot from the stadium of like crowd as well.
28:13That seldom goes right, does it?
28:16When you tell a player to shoot and he doesn't, it flies in the top corner.
28:20Yeah, that was just great, that.
28:21So, I know I'll let you take over because I know what you're going to say, and that
28:25is obviously, that is obviously the shout, but I wanted to show some love to that goal
28:29because I thought that was just, I just thought that was glorious.
28:33Yeah, I think you could split it off into two categories, could you?
28:35You could have best screamer and then best goal generally.
28:38But for me, the best goal generally, in terms of feeling, it was pretty aesthetically
28:43pleasing as well.
28:44The audacity, the skill, the stage on which he did it as well, it was a big game.
28:48It's got to be Chris Ring against Middlesbrough, 17 years old, to do that in a local rivalry,
28:54I'll say, not a derby because we'll get told off for that, but just magnificent and a real
28:59sort of...
29:01Is it a coming of age moment?
29:02He's probably already come of age, hasn't he?
29:04Over the recent seasons, but yeah, really, really breathtaking and I don't think television
29:13actually did it justice of how tight that angle was.
29:17It was superb, a great moment and great to beat Middlesbrough at the Stadium Night as
29:21well, just for fans generally.
29:23Yeah, I think so.
29:26I think that is the goal of the season so far.
29:28I think we can box that one off.
29:31I think that would be a 99% winner, but I thought I would show Job some love as well
29:36for that goal.
29:37No, absolutely.
29:38Jordan Ramsey says Rigg versus Burra, Stu Tench says Job versus Derby, Michael Bauer says
29:45Rigg's audacious backheel, Ethan Todd agrees with the backheel as well.
29:52Savory Dip says Bellingham versus Derby, Nick Wilson says Mundell versus Burnley, which
29:58we covered a little bit, which is a great shout as well.
30:03Matthew Powell comes up with a little bit of a different one, Phil, and probably a little
30:06bit under the radar, but Maienda versus Sheffield Wednesday as well.
30:09To see him get that goal after his performances in pre-season, to see a Sunderland striker
30:15scoring at the Stadium of Light, and I guess actually you could combine that with a little
30:19bit of a disappointment that Maienda's momentum was halted by that injury as well, could be
30:27a bit of a low light.
30:30Yeah, I think so.
30:31I really like that shout actually, it's a really good point because, and I think credit
30:34to Maienda and Isidor that we didn't do a 20 minute thing in the low light section about
30:39strikers, because actually Sunderland have got the right amount of goals really from
30:44the centre forwards that you would expect, and I think that Maienda did an excellent
30:49job really in the opening weeks of the season.
30:51I'm not too concerned, I think the realistic, if you look at his workload in the opening
30:56weeks of the season, compared to what it was in the past 18 months, I think little
31:00injuries were inevitable because the surge in his workload is through the roof really.
31:06And actually, to be honest, I think even if he hadn't picked up a little injury, I think
31:10it might have been time to rotate a little bit anyway.
31:12I don't see any harm in that, and you've got to remember that Maienda's, I don't
31:14think, is he 20 yet?
31:16I'm not sure he is.
31:18So he's never going to play 46 games anyway, and I think to be in a position where you
31:21can roll Isidor in and what he's done, I think is a really exciting one.
31:25But yeah, I'm really pleased someone's shown a little bit of love to Maienda because that
31:29was probably one of the biggest positives the first three, four weeks of the season.
31:33Testament to Lebris for the work he did with him in pre-season and for trusting him as
31:38well, not looking at what had happened in the previous year, but just going on what
31:41he'd seen in training and going with what he was kind of seeing from Maienda, but also
31:46clearly to Maienda because a huge improvement in a very short space of time.
31:50Yeah, Maienda isn't 20 until the 8th of May, which is quite frankly ridiculous.
31:56That's incredible, it's incredible.
31:58If he was a Sunderland Academy product, you know, we'd be over ourselves in excitement.
32:04So yeah, that's amazing.
32:07Yeah, that is crazy.
32:08That's blown my mind a bit actually.
32:09Right, we'll move on to the next category.
32:11Let me just find my notes here.
32:14So yes, we're looking at player of the season so far.
32:18I'll start on this if you don't mind, Phil.
32:20I'm going to go for the very obvious shout, I think anyway, of Luke09.
32:25I think he's reacted really well.
32:27Obviously, Dan Neal's had the team captaincy, so he's sort of had the armband taken off
32:31him, but hasn't really.
32:32He's still club captain.
32:33He's played, I think, 90 minutes in all of Sunderland's games.
32:36He's got two goals, one assist.
32:37I think Sunderland have kept five clean sheets, is it, in the Open and nine games of the season?
32:44I think his levels at centre-back have improved again this season to what they were last season.
32:53I just think without Luke09, I'm not sure Sunderland would go on that run.
32:57I think his experience is invaluable.
32:59I think he's proved a lot of the doubt that was wrong, and I think he's the obvious pick
33:04for me.
33:04I think there are some other players as well, because obviously Sunderland have had a good
33:08start of the season, but him being that constant at centre-back as well, there's been a little
33:12bit of churn and change.
33:14He's had to play with Mepham.
33:15He's had to play with Ballard.
33:16He's had to play with Alissi.
33:17I say I had to play with him as if it's sort of a bad thing, because they're three quality
33:23centre-backs as well.
33:23But he's had that little inconsistency as well in terms of the personnel next to him.
33:28So, I think 09 is the obvious shout.
33:33Yes, I don't disagree with any of that.
33:35This was one of the easiest categories where I wrote the answer down straight away, and
33:39it wasn't 09.
33:40I put Dennis Serkin without even thinking.
33:46I think the left-back was arguably, other than the strike, is Sunderland's weakest position
33:50last season.
33:51I think that Serkin has been outstanding in just about every single game, defence and
33:55attack.
33:56And I think also the thing with Serkin is, you know, sometimes we've talked about this
33:59on the pod, haven't we, when valuing players and stuff, and that we live in a bit of a
34:02Sunderland bubble and we have rose-tinted glasses for Sunderland players.
34:05But with Serkin, it's not just that he looks like he's playing well to us.
34:08If you look at the sort of statistics, he is, you know, interceptions, tackles, dribbles.
34:13He is right up, I think he's the most, he's up there with the most fouled players across
34:17the entire division.
34:18I think he's been outstanding.
34:20You know, and we're right to praise Mundell, who's been unbelievable, but to play in front
34:26of a defender, in front of a left-back who has been so much in both phases of the game,
34:30makes a massive difference.
34:32I honestly think he's been, I think he's been exceptional.
34:35And he was the one who my mind went straight to because it's gone from Sunderland's, in
34:39my opinion, arguably Sunderland's weakest position last season, maybe other than the
34:43striker, to probably their strongest position so far this season.
34:47I love watching him play.
34:48I love his attitude.
34:49I think his personality is great.
34:51And yeah, for me, like, I think that's been, I think he's been exceptional.
34:56Yeah, no, absolutely.
34:570-9 in Serkin, probably the standout candidates.
35:00Perhaps Serkin, just nicking it as I think about it.
35:03I think for me, Phil, the third player in that player of the season conversation, but
35:07he could also drop in a young player just based on the consistency of his performances
35:12would actually be Romain Mundell as well.
35:15I think he's a contender.
35:16Yeah, I think there's two other players who I think would also be considered for young
35:22player of the season as well.
35:23Job, yeah, I think Job's been amazing.
35:26I will just fall straight into it because it's easiest.
35:28I would give Job my young player of the season so far.
35:30I think that obviously Rigg would be a strong contender for that because he's been brilliant.
35:34But I think Job has been one of the best midfielders in the championship so far this season.
35:39I think you forget that he's still only 18 and in his second full season of professional
35:43football.
35:44I think just because he looks and moves and talks like a 25-year-old doesn't change the
35:49fact that he's not, that he's actually 18.
35:52And I think if you're looking sort of, you know, for the player who I think has been
35:55most important to the side, you know, a young player, I think Job would be the one for me.
36:00I think Mundell's a really good shout because I think, as I said, we kind of talked about
36:03earlier in the podcast, but, you know, Mundell is, that was the thing that we were most worried
36:07about coming into the season when we were making our predictions and stuff.
36:10We were all saying, well, I think the squad's, you know, I think there's a lot of positives,
36:13but what if, what if Clark goes?
36:14What if, what if, what if?
36:15And we've barely mentioned Clark's name since he left.
36:18That's absolutely no disrespect to Clark.
36:20He was an amazing player for some and we loved watching him.
36:22We wish him all the best in the Premier League.
36:24But we all kind of thought we'd be talking every week about going, ah, you know, no Clark
36:29which has not happened because Mundell is, he's produced consistently in the final third.
36:36He's a real grafter as well, which obviously we didn't know much about Mundell's game before
36:39he arrived.
36:40So we didn't know what he was going to be like as a player, but he puts in such a shift.
36:44He scraps a bit as well, which let's be honest, we all love him as a young player.
36:48We like to see it.
36:49I think he's been fantastic.
36:51But yeah, I think Job is performing with a quite incredible level of consistency for
36:56his age.
36:56And I think just because, you know, I don't know, maybe we don't always remember how young
37:03he actually is just because he feels like he's been around for a little bit longer.
37:06But I think to me, he would be my favourite player of the season so far.
37:10Yeah.
37:10Good shots again.
37:11Matthew Powell, young player of the season says Rigg.
37:13His player of the season is Job.
37:16Michael Dunne has exactly the same and so does Nick Wilson on social media as well,
37:23as does Savory Dip.
37:25So that is a very, yeah, there's a bit of a consensus there developing.
37:31Let's have a look.
37:32What does Michael Bowers say?
37:33His player of the season is Mundell, young player of the season.
37:36Bellingham, Stu Tench, player of the season so far, Job, young player of Rigg.
37:44Jordan Ramsey goes with a Job-Rigg double as well.
37:48And yeah, again, testament to the levels that Solon have set that there are multiple options
37:53for both of those nine-game season awards, if that's what we're calling it.
37:58Right, what's the next?
37:59This is my favourite category, actually.
38:01I always like talking about this one.
38:02Player you would want to see more of, Phil?
38:05Fire away.
38:08Yeah, I actually put three down for this.
38:12The one I'll go with is Tommy Watson just because I think we've obviously watched him
38:15a lot in the Under-21s and just a bit of a cheat code, a bit like Klarko's last season.
38:20Picks up the ball, beats two players, sticks it in the bottom corner.
38:23Just seems to be able to do it every time.
38:25And actually, what was really exciting is we haven't seen loads of him in the first team
38:28and he hasn't got that big sort of headline in terms of goal or an assist yet.
38:31But he looks like he can do pretty much the same at Championship level.
38:34You know, he just glides at the ball and he just goes past players.
38:38And I really think he's the next big Sunderland Academy graduate.
38:42I think he can do what Rigg has done.
38:45I think he, especially now with Provader's injury, I think the door is a little bit open
38:48for him and I expect him to take it.
38:50And I'm just incredibly excited about what he's going to do.
38:52The other two obvious ones are Sanez, because we've talked for years about wanting to see
38:57that sort of midfield player, that different midfield player.
39:00I'm hoping it can be him.
39:02It's incredibly frustrating at the moment.
39:04He can't even get out on the pitch.
39:05Hopefully that'll change.
39:07And I'm increasingly intrigued, excited, hopeful about Aaron Connolly, I think.
39:13I think, obviously, in the interview that he did with the club last week,
39:17which everyone was saying I thought was remarkable, really, in how honest he was,
39:22how accountable he was and how driven he came across as well.
39:25And, you know, by all indications, he produced a very good performance in the 21s last week.
39:29Lebris has been talking a lot about what excellent shape he's in and how impressed he is.
39:36If Sunderland are getting the player who came through at Brighton, and that could be a game
39:41changer for this squad, really, in terms of his goal record and his pressing as well.
39:44So I've chucked three in there.
39:46I'll go with Watson.
39:47But, you know, it's going to be one of the interesting things over the next few weeks
39:51is to see Connolly.
39:52I think people are rightly starting to get excited about what he might be able to bring
39:56to the table now.
39:58Yeah, I can't disagree with any of that.
40:00I had four written down.
40:01I had Connolly, Samed, Watson and, obviously, Abdullahi as well.
40:06Obviously, we haven't seen anything of him yet.
40:08And then just thinking as well, Aleksic is a really bright, bright talent.
40:12Yeah, that's a good shout, yeah.
40:15And one of the ones, actually, which came through on social media was sort of Alan Brown
40:20starting for a good five, ten games in a row.
40:22He's sort of been in and out due to injury.
40:24But what I've seen of Brown has been really impressive, actually.
40:30Yeah, I think that's a really good shout.
40:32The only reason I didn't really think of Brown was because he's had a contribution, hasn't
40:35he, you know, credits and stuff like that.
40:36But I think it's a really good shout.
40:38Aleksic is a really interesting one because the kind of the problem, I say problem, it's
40:46not really a problem.
40:47Obviously, he's going on international duty, which is really exciting for a player of his
40:50age to be playing for a very, very good international side and going away regularly.
40:55But it is definitely stopping him sort of really kicking on here at Sunderland because,
41:00obviously, he's trying to learn a new language.
41:02He's trying to settle into training.
41:04He's trying to understand the new philosophy.
41:06It kind of, these would be the moments where he was getting a two-week solid training block
41:10where he can really make some headway.
41:12And obviously, he goes off on international duty.
41:14So it's a bit of a conundrum that, I think, a little bit.
41:17I'm not saying it's the wrong thing to do because you can't not have a player, especially
41:22at his age, go and represent his country.
41:23It's an amazing honour and it'll be good for his development in the long run.
41:26But I do feel like that's going to be stop-start for a little bit longer.
41:29Like, I don't think he's going to be ready to start at Hull or anything like that.
41:32Do you know what I mean?
41:32I think that's a little bit more of a slow burner.
41:35But yeah, I think it's a really good shout that.
41:39I think he is a real unknown, isn't he?
41:42And it's going to be exciting to see what he can bring when the time does come.
41:46I would actually throw into that as well, my end of starting again.
41:49When he comes back, I've seen enough from him now to be quite excited to see more.
41:54You know, Wilson Isidor's two performances as well, where he's got those two goals.
41:59Looking forward to seeing more of him.
42:01Let's move on to the tail end of the podcast.
42:03We're going to do a mark out of 10.
42:06Nice and simple fill for Sunderland's season so far.
42:09I went with a nine.
42:11So deducting 0.5 for the performances against Watford and Plymouth,
42:16or should I say the result against Plymouth rather.
42:18That for me really has been the only sort of mitigating factor
42:22in what's been a decent start of the season so far.
42:27Yeah, I think that's fair.
42:27I went with an eight.
42:29Just because I think that, yeah, not just because of Plymouth and Watford,
42:34I've got a bit of analysis, which will be up on the website fairly soon actually,
42:38just about performance levels.
42:40And I don't think Sunderland have been as good in the last five games
42:43as they were in the opening four.
42:46That's not like major criticism.
42:47They've got seven points, which is a decent return.
42:50But I do think we've seen a little bit of a drop off
42:52and a little bit more inconsistency in the performance levels.
42:56It's going to be really interesting to see how Le Bris kind of adapts.
42:59I think we've definitely seen signs in the last few games, Plymouth, Watford,
43:03Leeds, even Derby at times, teams are starting to find and adapt
43:08and find ways to sort of hurt Sunderland a little bit,
43:11which is to be expected.
43:12That's how football works.
43:14So I'm really excited and interested to see how Le Bris tries to adapt to that
43:17and what kind of Sunderland side we see in the next five to six games.
43:21It's also been a little bit of a frustration that I think that,
43:24you know, consistently in games,
43:25Le Bris hasn't really had the option to turn to the bench.
43:28I think for all those players that we've just listed that we want to see more of,
43:31you know, there's been different factors in each one,
43:34but it does feel like opposition has the advantage in the last 15,
43:3820 minutes of games consistently at the moment
43:40because Le Bris just doesn't really have those options to change it.
43:44That all sounds really negative.
43:45I don't mean to be, it's been a better start of the season
43:48that I could possibly have envisaged or possibly have hoped for.
43:51I think this loads of really, really good signs, really encouraging.
43:54I think the way that Le Bris has managed to sort of,
43:56in his own way, connect with the supporters,
43:58I think it's been really, really good.
44:00I've enjoyed watching the vast majority of the game,
44:03so 8 out of 10 for me.
44:05Excellent.
44:06Surpassed my expectations and hopefully now can sort of kick on from here.
44:12But I do think, you know,
44:13I do think there's a lot of work to be done
44:14before we can start talking about Sunderland as the finished article.
44:19Yeah, absolutely.
44:21Crack and Phil, thank you for that.
44:23Thank you to the listener for listening to the Raw podcast.
44:27We will be back for the Hull City game
44:29and then Luton following that as well.
44:31Full coverage, full build-up.
44:32Reduce the Breezes press conference will be at some point as well,
44:35I'm guessing Thursday.
44:37So keep in touch with Phil's social media
44:40and the Sunderland Echo social media
44:41for all of the latest team news and injury updates.
44:45Thank you for joining us.
44:46We'll see you next time.