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00:00:00For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:00:28Welcome to another edition of the Thoroughbred Daily News Writer's Room podcast, my name
00:00:32is Bill Finley, I'm a correspondent for the Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:00:36Happy holidays everyone, I'm Randy Moss with NBC Sports and the Buyer's Speed Figure team.
00:00:43Zoe Cabman here with XBTV and First Racing.
00:00:46If I'd known we were going all Christmassy, I'd have worn my Christmas jumper.
00:00:51So this is a special edition of the Thoroughbred Daily News Writer's Room.
00:00:55It is our best of, of 2024, we're trying to give some of our employees a couple weeks
00:01:01off and a little bit of rest time as the holiday's coming up.
00:01:04So we hope you enjoy this because we're going to give you the, what we thought were some
00:01:09of the best interviews that we compiled this year in 2024.
00:01:13So sit back and enjoy, this should be fun.
00:01:15So back in June, just prior to the first ever Belmont Stakes at Saratoga, we interviewed
00:01:21Richard Migliore, the former jockey and now racing analyst for Fox Sports.
00:01:25We asked Richie about his expectations for that historic four-day meet and about his
00:01:31opinions on the Belmont Stakes in particular.
00:01:35Welcome in now, the Green Group Guest of the Week, and it's an old favorite of mine, Richard
00:01:39Migliore, a guy who'd had a great career as a jockey and is doing, I say, just as well
00:01:44as a TV commentator now as he's part of the Fox program that will be airing the Belmont
00:01:50Stakes on Saturday.
00:01:51Richie, welcome and thanks for joining us here on the TDN Writer's Room Podcast.
00:01:56I always wondered about this, you are a New York guy, New York through and through.
00:02:01You root for all the New York sports teams, you were born and raised in New York.
00:02:05How would you compare, you were never lucky enough to win the Belmont or the Derby, but
00:02:09would you have rather won the Belmont than the Derby?
00:02:11Wow, that's a great question.
00:02:13I mean, you know, the easy answer would be the Derby because that's the first thing people
00:02:17ask you.
00:02:18I would have won the Kentucky Derby and I was fortunate.
00:02:22I won a lot of Derbys and I would have traded them all for one Kentucky Derby.
00:02:26But honestly, the Belmont and the Travers probably held more allure to me.
00:02:32The Kentucky Derby for me growing up could have been, you know, on Mars.
00:02:36I was going to Aqueduct for races like the Sport Page Handicap and the Toboggan.
00:02:41Those were tangible to me, but it would have been nice to win any one of them.
00:02:46Unfortunately, it wasn't in the cards.
00:02:49So Richie, what are you expecting the scene to be like with the Belmont Stakes run at
00:02:56Saratoga for the very first time?
00:03:00I can already feel the energy that's been in town.
00:03:04I got up here Saturday morning, I ran back home for one day, but Saratoga always holds
00:03:12that kind of energy and you feel the charm of it.
00:03:15The mystique of Saratoga, but it's amped up even more here.
00:03:20I don't want to say it's going to be a madhouse, but it's going to be on the edge of chaos.
00:03:27I'm excited about it.
00:03:28Listen, Saratoga to me is America's classic racetrack, obviously home to the National
00:03:34Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame.
00:03:36So much history here and you could feel the history, it's palpable.
00:03:41And now we're having an American classic and I know a lot of people are upset, oh, it's
00:03:44not a mile and a half.
00:03:47The Belmont Stakes have been run at five different distances at five different locales already.
00:03:52So yes, in the modern era, there's tradition about it, but the more things stay the same,
00:03:57the more things change.
00:03:58Meg, where are you right now?
00:04:01It looks like you're in a very green place.
00:04:04Would you happen to be on a picnic table somewhere?
00:04:07I am on a picnic table right outside the paddock.
00:04:10I bombed in here, bees are buzzing me.
00:04:13And I just felt bad.
00:04:14I hate telling somebody I'll be ready at 12 and not be ready until after.
00:04:20I hate being late.
00:04:22I'm a very punctual kind of guy.
00:04:24That being said, is it possible to still get a reservation in Saratoga?
00:04:28Because this weekend to me seems like, is it a little bit busier than Traverse weekend?
00:04:34Because that's the only thing I compare it to.
00:04:37Yeah, it's even busier.
00:04:39You have to go as far away as Albany or up towards Lake George to find a hotel room that
00:04:45you could get for any one of the days.
00:04:47There's still tickets for Thursday, Friday, Sunday here in Saratoga.
00:04:52Saturday is completely sold out.
00:04:55But yeah, even dinner reservations.
00:04:58Luckily, Zoe, I have friends that are in the restaurant business up here and I will be
00:05:03picking up takeout every night.
00:05:08Richie, one of the biggest differences, not only that the race is being run in Saratoga
00:05:13as opposed to Belmont, but is the difference on the distance of the race, which you mentioned
00:05:18earlier from a mile and a half to a mile and a quarter.
00:05:21There's no way they could have run this thing at a mile and a half at Saratoga.
00:05:23That would have made no sense and anybody thinks it should be a mile and a half race.
00:05:27No, you're just wrong about that.
00:05:29But how about from a jockey's perspective?
00:05:32Will the riders ride this race any differently because it's a mile and a quarter at Saratoga
00:05:38versus a mile and a half at Belmont?
00:05:41I do believe, Bill, they'll ride it differently.
00:05:43I think going a mile and a half, which is not a distance that is common in North America,
00:05:48particularly on the dirt, riders ride it much more carefully.
00:05:53They're much more inclined to worry about a horse getting the distance.
00:05:58A mile and a quarter, a lot of these horses obviously have run in the Derby.
00:06:04They're not going to be as concerned about the mile and a quarter, so I do believe they'll
00:06:08ride them a bit differently.
00:06:09I do think you'll see more of a legitimate pace, particularly in this Belmont because
00:06:14there are three or four that I think are confirmed, not front runners, but forward type horses.
00:06:21So yeah, I do think it'll be ridden considerably different in that respect.
00:06:27I'm one of those people who do think it should be run at a mile and a half, and I don't think
00:06:30I'm wrong about it, but I do understand why they're not because it would be started on
00:06:35the turn.
00:06:37But let's talk about Sierra Leone, first of all, Richie.
00:06:40I mean, he's the horse that is going to be the favorite, probably a pretty solid favorite,
00:06:43I think.
00:06:44And a lot of the talk about Sierra Leone is obviously his Kentucky Derby and the lugging
00:06:49in and now the jockey change and the bit change.
00:06:54Give us your opinion about all that.
00:06:56Well, this is a horse, Sierra Leone, that has always shown that propensity to want to
00:07:01lug in.
00:07:02He did it in his first start.
00:07:03I think it cost him the Remsen stakes because he lugged in on top of Dornach and it emboldened
00:07:09Dornach.
00:07:11Every one of his starts, if you go back and look at his bluegrass, he's not running straight
00:07:16on his own volition.
00:07:17He's having to be corrected.
00:07:20And if you look at some of the still shots of the Derby, he has a snaffle bit, which
00:07:25Zoe will attest to is a very mild bit in the horse's mouth.
00:07:29And it's basically pulled all the way through his mouth by Tyler Gafleon trying to keep
00:07:34him straight off of Forever Young and go forward.
00:07:38Now they said they had experimented previous with that bit and Chad Brown, his conditioner,
00:07:45wasn't thrilled with how he reacted to it.
00:07:48But since the Derby, he's worked in it three times.
00:07:50I was here for the last work and it looks like it's having the desired effect.
00:07:55So obviously most people are too young to remember when cars didn't have power steering.
00:08:03Basically he's outfitted with power steering now as opposed to with that snaffle bit where
00:08:08he wasn't.
00:08:09I feel bad for Tyler Gafleon and let me couch this by saying, jockeys take off horses all
00:08:18the time to ride a horse they perceive as a better horse.
00:08:21Everybody's looking out for their best opportunity.
00:08:23So I'm never going to criticize an owner or trainer for doing what they think they need
00:08:30to do to see success.
00:08:33But I feel for Tyler Gafleon in this instance because he rode the horse when it was more
00:08:39difficult to ride him and now with this change of equipment, he doesn't get that opportunity.
00:08:45And as a former rider, I guess I'm a little sensitive to that.
00:08:47It just doesn't feel like it's 100% fair.
00:08:49Now that being said, if he could have rode a better one, he might have taken off.
00:08:53That's the nature of the business.
00:08:56I will say I'm a little bit, I question why he's never worked outside of horses with the
00:09:02new equipment.
00:09:03Every time he works, he works on the rail.
00:09:06And as Zoe knows, a lot of these bigger, tougher kind of colts, a lot of the lugging is about
00:09:11getting over on top of a horse.
00:09:13They want to bully them.
00:09:14They're not as interested in running by them as they are to assert their dominance physically.
00:09:20And I really felt like Forever Young actually facilitated or started that contact and gave
00:09:29him probably 10% and then he gave back 90%.
00:09:33But I think it kind of set him off a little bit.
00:09:36Like a horse came out into, you know, there's a guy in the bar, somebody brushes them and
00:09:39they're ready to jump and fight, right?
00:09:41I felt like that was a little bit what was going on with Sierra Leone.
00:09:47And I really do think he would have won the Derby if he could have been ridden properly.
00:09:50So you can make the case, I mean, he's two noses away from being undefeated and you can
00:09:54make the case he should be undefeated.
00:09:58So I do think the bit will help a great deal, but I still would have liked to have seen
00:10:02him work outside of a horse that you would have gotten even a better idea of its effectiveness.
00:10:08Couldn't agree with you more, Richie.
00:10:09I've been banging on about that for weeks, like work him on the outside.
00:10:13I believe he's trying to get to the rail as well.
00:10:16All right, Richie, put on your beret and put on your Frenchman's accent.
00:10:22I want you to take me through the race aboard Sierra Leone as if you are riding him.
00:10:28What does Flavian need to do?
00:10:31Well, you know, a lot has been made of the trip beyond the bumping that, you know, he
00:10:36had to come wide.
00:10:38He saved ground all the first turn and I'm a great believer in ground, saving ground.
00:10:43And if you're going to be wide, know you're going to be wide on one turn, you've got to
00:10:47make a conscious effort to be inside as much as possible on the other turn.
00:10:52So obviously you're on a closer the first turn, you want to save as much ground as possible.
00:10:58He's also not a horse that you can stop and start, you know, much different than Mystic
00:11:02Dan, who is a ballet dancer, right?
00:11:05He can get up in a spot, idle, be asked, pick it up again.
00:11:10He can make multiple moves, which helps a rider out immensely.
00:11:15And it's going to lend himself to getting ground saving trips and taking advantage of
00:11:19when opportunities present themselves.
00:11:22Sierra Leone is a completely different kind of horse and he's a horse that runs with his
00:11:26head out and down.
00:11:28He's gotten bigger and stronger since the Derby, guys, I will tell you that.
00:11:32He's actually matured a great deal in these five weeks.
00:11:35And you think about it, they're like children, you know, they start to have growth spurts
00:11:40and develop at different stages.
00:11:43For a three-year-old Colt, usually from the middle of January, end of January through
00:11:47this period of time, they change a great deal.
00:11:49I've seen the most physical change in him than anybody else since the Kentucky Derby.
00:11:56But again, getting back to, you can't stop and start him.
00:11:58So you've got to save as much ground on the first turn, in my estimation, if I'm riding
00:12:03Sierra Leone and start to find my way to a clear path, whether that's inside or outside.
00:12:09But I want to put myself in a position where I don't have to stop him because I don't think
00:12:14you're going to get him started again.
00:12:16You know, you think about driving, you know, a trail of my daughter to a horse show, right?
00:12:21And I've got horses on the back and I got my truck.
00:12:23If I hit the brakes, it takes me a long time to get my momentum going again.
00:12:27If I'm driving a Porsche, I can hit the brakes, stop, start, accelerate again.
00:12:32I think that would be the best way to describe the difference between Mystic Dan, who's a
00:12:37Porsche, and Sierra Leone, who's just more of a truck that once you get that momentum,
00:12:43you don't want to lose it.
00:12:44So I would be looking to get him as clear a trip as possible.
00:12:48I also, if I was riding him, I would have begged to work him.
00:12:50I would have drove up here from anywhere to get on him so I had a better idea of exactly
00:12:54what I was dealing with.
00:12:57So if you're riding him now and you're headed toward the stretch and you know his background,
00:13:02what's in the back of your mind?
00:13:04Well, hopefully by then I'll have a better feel of how much control I have of him and
00:13:10make the decision to put him in the clear.
00:13:12I would prefer to be in the clear with a horse like that, but not if I'm having to fight
00:13:18him or correct him constantly.
00:13:20Because the more you're correcting, the less you're going forward, right?
00:13:23The finish line, the bag of money's up there.
00:13:26If I'm going sideways, I'm inhibiting my ability to get to that bag of money.
00:13:31You'll go to the Migliori patented left-hand crop.
00:13:36Well, let's back to the sin, guys.
00:13:39We have different crop rules than we used to.
00:13:43My contention with that has always been that, yes, I do think that riders need to be regulated
00:13:48and have a better education.
00:13:52Sometimes riders get caught up in going to the crop because they think that's what people
00:13:57need to see as opposed to that it's actually being effective.
00:14:01But the limited amount of times you've got horses with short attention spans, you've
00:14:04got horses that lug in or lug out, you're limited by what you can do.
00:14:10And I think when you limit riders or you inhibit riders from reacting naturally to situations,
00:14:19you're not being fair to them.
00:14:22I've seen horses win by five lengths and get hit once that I think the rider should
00:14:26have been called in.
00:14:27I've seen horses stopping that a rider hits three or four times that should be called
00:14:31in.
00:14:32You are not allowing people to do their jobs in the moment.
00:14:39And it's not like you have a lot of time to think about it.
00:14:42You have to be able to react and allow your instincts to take over.
00:14:46And I think it inhibits instinct.
00:14:48So I think Flavian has to be aware of that too.
00:14:53I have six times that I could really get at this horse and how do I meet that out?
00:14:59Do I save it for crunch time?
00:15:01Do I get them early so I can get them away from horses and go forward?
00:15:06I think that's where sometimes I have trouble with some of these restrictions.
00:15:11Richard Migliore, thank you so much for being our Green Group guest of the week.
00:15:15We'll be following you on the broadcast on Fox on Saturday for the Belmont Stakes at
00:15:21Saratoga.
00:15:22It's going to be a great event in the history of horse racing.
00:15:25No matter who wins, you're going into this knowing this is going to be something extremely
00:15:29special.
00:15:29And Richie, I'll be home watching you and I'm sure you'll be telling the listeners all
00:15:34the good things that are going on.
00:15:35I want to thank you for being our Green Group guest of the week and good luck on Saturday
00:15:39with your broadcast.
00:15:40Thank you guys.
00:15:41This is a lot of fun.
00:15:42I'm obviously friends with all of you, but a big fan of all of you as well.
00:16:12For the love of the horse, for generations to come.
00:16:17You're seeing him on a skyrocket to success.
00:16:20He's really stamping his progeny, getting big, scopey, really good moving horses.
00:16:26He moves your mares up so much.
00:16:27I think that reflects back on his versatility.
00:16:29They do everything.
00:16:30They've got enough speed and then they'll go two turns.
00:16:33They can sprint, they can route, they can run on the turf.
00:16:36I think he excels at a mile on the dirt and beyond.
00:16:38It's all culminated into when they show up here, we all want them.
00:16:42When you're at the barn and you walk out of the office, you see a shed row full of
00:16:45constitutions.
00:16:46It's always a good thing.
00:16:48We also interviewed one of my favorite people in horse racing and his name is Flavian Pratt.
00:16:55Flavian, Flavian, however you want to say it.
00:16:58In 2022, Flavian decided to make the decision, one that Bill didn't agree with, but he went
00:17:05anyway.
00:17:05He made the decision to leave Southern California to come east.
00:17:09And boy, did that decision pay off.
00:17:11In 2024 in Saratoga, he smashed the meet record with 16 stakes wins.
00:17:18We talked to him on the eve of the Saratoga meeting, which he would go on to dominate.
00:17:24Now we're joined by our Green Group guest of the week.
00:17:26It's one of the hottest jockeys on the globe, Flavian Pratt.
00:17:29Flavian, thanks so much for joining us.
00:17:31And first question I have for you is about the three-year-olds, which we're going to
00:17:34be talking a lot today, and the new shooter.
00:17:37You rode him for Chad Brown in an allowance victory Saturday at Aqueduct.
00:17:40He won very easily for the second straight time.
00:17:43What do you like about him?
00:17:44What is his future?
00:17:46What I like about him, he's running fast.
00:17:50Now he has done everything right.
00:17:57He was, before his first race, everybody liked him and he was training well,
00:18:03going into his first race.
00:18:04He ran well and came back even better and then ran a good race in Aqueduct.
00:18:12Follow-up question for you on that.
00:18:14It was interesting.
00:18:14That was the same day that Catching Freedom ran as the favorite in the Ohio Derby.
00:18:18You had been riding him.
00:18:19What were the circumstances?
00:18:21Did you actually choose to stay in New York to ride Ultimate Wisdom,
00:18:24or was there more to the story than that?
00:18:26No, it was one of those situations where it was either I was going to the Ohio Derby,
00:18:34or I was staying in New York and give a chance to see what Unmatched Wisdom could do.
00:18:44I don't know.
00:18:45I just felt like I was going to try to see what Unmatched Wisdom could do.
00:18:53He ran a good race, so I was very pleased with that.
00:18:56Flav, before we dive into some of the other stuff, let's keep it with the three-year-olds
00:19:01and talk Sierra Leone for a second.
00:19:03Going into the Belmont, everybody knew about his lugging in situation, his habits,
00:19:12the bit change, and things like that.
00:19:15Watching the Belmont stakes, at one point, at about the three-eighths pole maybe, I'm like,
00:19:20my God, he's going to get B20 links.
00:19:23He's going absolutely nowhere.
00:19:26Then all of a sudden, belatedly, here he comes.
00:19:29What were your thoughts on the kind of race that he ran in the Belmont stakes?
00:19:35Well, I had pretty much the same thought as you.
00:19:40It seems like that day, the track was pretty fast, and it was very hard to make ground.
00:19:48I was not traveling at all down the backside.
00:19:51It felt like the first quarter was quick, and I was okay where I was.
00:19:59I was trying to get him into a rhythm, and I figured once I get down the backside, I'll
00:20:05pick up a few horses.
00:20:08As it goes, he'll start building momentum, but that was not the case.
00:20:14I was struggling to get some momentum, and he finally turning for me, finally made a
00:20:25good run.
00:20:28Yeah, it was not as expected, but the last part of the race was good, and so hopefully
00:20:35we can build something up for the future.
00:20:38He's obviously got a huge amount of talent locked in there.
00:20:42I mean, what's the solution?
00:20:44Not that he's running poorly.
00:20:45Is it just going to be maturity?
00:20:47I mean, what else can be done at this point?
00:20:52Well, I think, like I said, I don't think the track suited him that day.
00:20:58I don't feel like he was very comfortable on the track.
00:21:03So hopefully, he'll go back to Saratoga.
00:21:07Usually, in the summer, the track is a bit slower, and we'll go from there.
00:21:11I mean, we'll see what happens.
00:21:14Have you spoken to Chad Brown about a commitment for the ride back?
00:21:17Are you going to be riding him back in the Jim Dandier Travers, or has that yet to be
00:21:21decided?
00:21:23I don't know what Chad is going to do with him, but obviously, he has a few options,
00:21:29and I'm sure I'll pick the right one.
00:21:32Flavien, I want to switch subjects for a minute, but there's something that's so
00:21:35interesting to me.
00:21:36I want you to talk to us and give us a feeling of what it's like to ride Flightline, and
00:21:41how does that feeling aboard him feel different than virtually any other horse you've ever
00:21:46ridden?
00:21:50Very small individual.
00:21:54It's very strange.
00:21:55It felt like he knew he was the star.
00:21:58He was obviously very fast and could carry the speed forever, I mean, for a mile and
00:22:04quarter, at least.
00:22:06Yeah, he was very powerful.
00:22:09He had a great way of moving, well-balanced, and he was very good in the turns.
00:22:14It felt like when he hit the turn, it was, for whatever reason, I never moved on him
00:22:22on the turn, but for whatever reason, every time he swapped lead, he would pick up a length
00:22:27or two on everybody else.
00:22:29And what was going through your mind in the Pacific Classic when you almost did a Ron
00:22:33Turcotte on Secretariat, where it looked like you looked behind you and almost couldn't
00:22:37believe that he was so far in front?
00:22:39Was that your reaction at the time?
00:22:43Yeah.
00:22:45So if I recall, he ran the mate mile, and we're going from a mile to a mile and quarter.
00:22:51He was running, I think, country grammar at the time.
00:22:54He was running against in the Classic.
00:22:56So I felt that country grammar couldn't maybe make a run on us.
00:23:04So I'm down the backside, and we get to the turn.
00:23:08So from there, I kind of let him run, and then I took a peek behind and realized that
00:23:16all of a sudden, we're 20 lengths in front.
00:23:18So yeah, it was shocking.
00:23:20It was a very good feeling.
00:23:22Well, without flight line, Flavien, you've certainly kept the ball rolling.
00:23:26We're taping this on June 25th.
00:23:29Right now, you've made just a touch under $13.4 million in purse money.
00:23:34That's a record for your career at this stage of any year.
00:23:40You're practically riding first call for Chad Brown.
00:23:42You're in the Charlie Appleby barn.
00:23:45You're riding the best horse in the Bob Baffert barn.
00:23:47You're in with Brad Cox.
00:23:49Things seemingly couldn't be going better.
00:23:51I know in 2022, when you made the decision to relocate from Southern California to New York
00:23:57and Kentucky, it raised a lot of eyebrows.
00:23:59Looking back on that decision now, what do you think about it?
00:24:05Yeah.
00:24:05I mean, gratefully, as you say, I'm riding for great connection, very fortunate.
00:24:11My agent's doing a great job, and so everything is going well right now.
00:24:17Yeah, I thought it felt like it was the right move at the right time.
00:24:22You know, it was a time where I was in California for probably six or seven years, and it just
00:24:31felt like it was time to try to do something else and explore a little bit the East Coast.
00:24:39I had the opportunity to ride for some trainer on the East Coast.
00:24:46Yeah, I thought it was just the right time to do it.
00:24:49That did seem like a very natural progression for you, Flavien.
00:24:53Let's maybe roll the clock back a little further.
00:24:56You started riding at age 16 in your home country of France.
00:25:01You were a champion apprentice the year later, and you only began riding in winters in Southern
00:25:07California in around 2009.
00:25:10And we look at the way your career has taken off and just blasted off since then.
00:25:18What do you know now with the experience that you've gained here in North America that you
00:25:22wish you knew when you were starting out?
00:25:24That was quite a bold move to be able to switch your tack from France to Southern California.
00:25:30What do you know now that you wish you knew then?
00:25:34That's a good question.
00:25:35Now, when I was riding in France, everything happened very quickly.
00:25:43So I rode the first, I think, the last three or four months of the season.
00:25:49And then I had a full season as an apprentice, and I was best apprentice.
00:25:55But it happened very quickly.
00:25:57I was very young.
00:25:58I don't think I was ready for that.
00:26:02You know, I was putting in a position where a lot was expected from me, and I don't think
00:26:09I was ready for that.
00:26:14But it was good because then I went to a smaller racetrack.
00:26:18I was riding less quality horses, and I had to fight on my way.
00:26:27And it was hard.
00:26:30But it was a good thing because then I came here, and I was starving.
00:26:37So I wanted to do well.
00:26:40And I think at that time, then I was ready to do better.
00:26:45Flavien, you have won a Kentucky Derby, of course, officially 2019 with Country House.
00:26:50But I've read that you really don't look at it that way, that it's sort of what we
00:26:53would call a hollow victory, of course, because he was put up through disqualifications.
00:26:57Do you feel that you're a Kentucky Derby winner already, or do you feel,
00:27:01I still need to get my first real Derby win?
00:27:05Well, I did win the Kentucky Derby, but obviously not in...
00:27:13I mean, it's not how you want to win it.
00:27:17You don't cross the finish line first and all that thing.
00:27:20And hopefully, I would be very fortunate if we can do that again.
00:27:27But regardless, yeah, I won the Kentucky Derby.
00:27:32One of the things that we horseplayers have noticed, Flavien, is that more than you would
00:27:39expect, I think, for riders coming from Europe, particularly from France, you and in particular
00:27:49also Florent Giroux have mastered the art in this country of being aggressive early
00:27:58in races when the situation calls for it.
00:28:02How long did it take you to adjust that way to American racing, and do you see that as
00:28:09an advantage?
00:28:13I don't know how long, and I'm probably still learning anyway.
00:28:19But yeah, I came here and I didn't want to have that tag of a turf rider.
00:28:27That was the main...
00:28:30I didn't want that.
00:28:32I love dirt races.
00:28:33I think I'm a big fan of dirt races, and I didn't want to have that tag.
00:28:38So I did everything to make sure I was able to perform on the dirt.
00:28:45And so yeah, I mean, obviously, dirt races, you need to be aggressive at some point, and
00:28:51you need to put yourself in a good position going into the first term.
00:28:58So yeah, it's something that I always try to improve, that's for sure.
00:29:06Flavien, as you continue to learn, you said you're always learning, take a look back at
00:29:11the earlier stages of your career when you were trying to cement those habits and get
00:29:16them part of your routine and your makeup.
00:29:19Who was a jockey that was a great influence on you, and maybe what was the best piece
00:29:23of advice you ever got from a veteran rider?
00:29:27I don't think there was one run rider that I picked, but obviously, you look at when
00:29:36I was in California, obviously, Mike Smith, it's one of the riders that is one of the
00:29:42best palmares, and it was somebody that I like to look at and very easy to talk to,
00:29:51and can give you advice.
00:29:54But no, there's been a lot of riders that I've watched, but there's not one in particular.
00:30:04Flavien, it's interesting to me that, and maybe people don't all know this, going way
00:30:09back in your career, you're the son of, and from a family of standard bred trotting trainers.
00:30:14And that was where you originally stood out.
00:30:16Two part question, why did you make the switch to thoroughbreds?
00:30:19And did you ever dream of winning the Prix de l'Amérique more so than the Kentucky Derby?
00:30:26No, so I love trotters.
00:30:30I've been around trotters as a kid, but I was very small, very light, and I felt like
00:30:43it could be good.
00:30:46I always liked thoroughbred as a kid, and I thought if I can make it as a thoroughbred
00:30:51rider, I would like to try.
00:30:54So before I went to the school, the jockey school, I went to two different trainers,
00:31:01and I spent two weeks with each, just to make sure I liked it, and I did.
00:31:08And so then after that, I went to the jockey school, and that's about it.
00:31:12I just didn't want to, the harness business, it's a lot of family related.
00:31:19A lot of people work with their parents and all that thing.
00:31:23I just want to do my own thing.
00:31:25I want to do something different and be able to do my own thing.
00:31:30Well, since things are going so well for you right now, Flavien, if you're ever tempted
00:31:33to ride in a charity harness race, ask around about what happened to Lafitte Pincaille
00:31:39when he did that 34 years ago in 1990, and got thrown into the air like a rag doll and
00:31:46wound up breaking his collarbone and all sorts of other injuries.
00:31:49Be careful if you ever decide to do that.
00:31:51I heard the story, but actually I did it last year in Saratoga, but I think Lafitte, when
00:31:59he drove, he drove a Pacer, and they have their four legs tied up, so I don't do that.
00:32:08I'll just stay with the harness, the trotters.
00:32:12Flavien, you're riding right now in a very competitive time as far as the North American
00:32:17jockey colony is concerned, and you're riding in New York, also spending some time shipping
00:32:23out to bigger races at other prominent tracks, wherever the grade one races are.
00:32:29Talk to us a little bit about your fellow riders, your rivals, your friends.
00:32:33Who is the one jockey that when you're going down, setting down a horse in the stretch,
00:32:39you don't want to either see coming after you or you don't want to see that you have
00:32:43to reel in?
00:32:45No, I think, as you said, there's a very good group of riders right now.
00:32:56I mean, when you ride a race and you have Johnny Velasquez, Javier Castellano, you
00:33:02get the Ortiz brothers, Tyler Gap.
00:33:05I mean, there's so many good riders, but it's fun.
00:33:08I think it makes all of us better.
00:33:10And it's fun to ride with all those great riders.
00:33:17PA Bread, I think we've built a brand at this point.
00:33:21It's excitement at every step.
00:33:25Roses for Deborah just set a new track record.
00:33:28On average, for the past decade, Pennsylvania paid over $28 million a year in breeders awards,
00:33:34restricted races, and owner bonuses.
00:33:37Plus, PA Bread shine on the world's biggest stage.
00:33:40Just three states have bred more Breeders' Cup winners.
00:33:43Learn more at pabread.com.
00:33:47Be a smarter better with XBTV.
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00:34:00All at your fingertips and delivered right into your inbox.
00:34:05Everything you need to be informed.
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00:34:09That's smart with XBTV.
00:34:15Our next interview subject, you may love him and agree with him, or you may find him annoying
00:34:22and disagreeable.
00:34:24But without question, Mike Rapole is passionate about the sport.
00:34:29He is never shy about expressing his opinions on anything.
00:34:34And like him or not, Mike is always interesting.
00:34:38We talked to Mike about fierceness after fierceness beat Torpedo Anna in that famous Traverse
00:34:43Stakes.
00:34:44We also talked to Mike about some of the changes he's looking to affect with his newly created
00:34:50National Thoroughbred Association.
00:34:53Welcome in now our green group guest of the week.
00:34:55And you know this fellow because he wins an awful lot of races and is found in the winner
00:34:59circle an awful lot of times.
00:35:00That's Mike Rapole, the owner of, among others, Fierceness, who won the Traverse Stakes.
00:35:05Mike, welcome to the show.
00:35:06And thanks for joining us.
00:35:08You have had so much success in your career in racing, but 96, 97% of those horses were
00:35:16horses you bought at sales.
00:35:18How did it feel different that a homebred won?
00:35:21And instead, then, are you a little bit more proud of this accomplishment than maybe the
00:35:25one that wins that you went out and spent a million bucks for at Keeneland?
00:35:28Well, Bill, I hope you okay if I say hello to Randy first because he's also on.
00:35:32Randy, how you doing, Bill?
00:35:34How are you?
00:35:37So yeah, I mean, you know, Bill, it's, you know, first of all, you know, winning the
00:35:44Traverse is probably top five race for anybody that is in this racing game.
00:35:49And, you know, I have done it in 2011 with State Thirsty.
00:35:52And now again this weekend, you know, I'm just I'm still on cloud nine.
00:35:57As far as it being a homebred versus a yelling purchase or a two-year-old purchase, you know,
00:36:03there was a lot of reflection prior to the race and a little reflection post-race.
00:36:09You know, Nonna Mia was a horse that I bought, one of my first horses I bought in a sale
00:36:15in 2000, I think seven for like 200,000.
00:36:19She's named after my grandmother, my grandmother in Italian.
00:36:23And I bred her, you know, I bred Nonna Mia to State Thirsty.
00:36:27And I got this filly called Nonna Bella.
00:36:29And what's your beautiful grandmother.
00:36:32So you're talking about the first stage being 2007.
00:36:36State Thirsty was a 2008.
00:36:38Nonna Bella probably was a 2014.
00:36:41And now to come here and breed Nonna Bella to City of Light, which I have a 10% stake.
00:36:47I mean, this is, you know, 17, 18 years in the creation or making of Fierceness.
00:36:53So when you start to think about starting the game when it first starts in 2004 and 2005,
00:36:59probably didn't win a race until 2006.
00:37:02And now you fast forward 20 years and there's, you know, not only do you own the mare,
00:37:09you own the grand mare and you race them both and State Thirsty when you're her first traverse
00:37:13and he's the grand sire, you know, kind of big reflection of, you know,
00:37:18being in my early 30s to now mid 50s and my grandmother being around for the races.
00:37:23And, you know, I told my daughter, Joya, she asked me if I, you know, on Friday,
00:37:28dad, did we ever win the Travers?
00:37:30And I said, no, I won the Travers in 2011, but you weren't here.
00:37:33So you haven't won the Travers.
00:37:35So I got two.
00:37:36She's got one.
00:37:37And it feels great.
00:37:39I mean, it really does have a lot more meaning, you know, over the last week,
00:37:43Bill and Randy, than I kind of really thought about it, you know, say six months ago.
00:37:48So given that emotional involvement, more so with this particular horse,
00:37:54how difficult was it for you, all the slings and arrows that Fierceness took
00:38:00after the Kentucky Derby and even the skepticism?
00:38:04I mean, he was, you know, he was almost what he was seven to two
00:38:06or something like that in the Travers.
00:38:08The skepticism that he'd be able to put two races together back to back the way he did.
00:38:14How tough was that for you to listen to all that?
00:38:16You know, Randy, listen, as far as tough, very tough.
00:38:19But, you know, I pride myself on, I bought a sneaker company,
00:38:23apparel company called Noble.
00:38:25You know what that stands for?
00:38:26And it's about mental toughness and a tough mentality.
00:38:30So, you know, listen, life is about adversity and life is about ups and downs.
00:38:35I mean, I scratched two Derby favorites.
00:38:38I don't know what can be tougher than Uncle Mo or Forte,
00:38:40you know, winning and losing a race.
00:38:42I mean, that happens every single day.
00:38:44But this horse probably was more baffling for Todd.
00:38:48You know, Todd has never had a horse this talented one race.
00:38:52And then all of a sudden you go from 110 buyer to an 80 buyer and it's in every other stock thing.
00:38:58So, you know, listen, I mean, you and Bill have been around this game a long time
00:39:03and we know there's a lot more lows than there are highs.
00:39:06So anytime you're having a high in this game,
00:39:10you know, it's hard to feel better about having lows.
00:39:12But, you know, I really feel great for Todd, who really put a lot of effort into every horse.
00:39:18And he's been around for over 25 years.
00:39:20But this horse in particular, you know, I mean, you know, I joked with him the other day,
00:39:25he's going to go down in history as the trainer who got fierceness beat three times.
00:39:29That's going to be his legacy.
00:39:30So, I mean, you did an amazing job and the horse ran super.
00:39:35I was a little worried about you after the race when the Fox camera
00:39:37showed the box and I didn't see you.
00:39:39You were like collapsed back into a chair.
00:39:43You know what?
00:39:44At the quarter pole, I thought we were going to win by three.
00:39:48At the eighth pole, I thought we were going to win by two and a half.
00:39:52At the 16th pole, I thought we're going to win by one and a half.
00:39:55At the 132nd pole, I thought we're going to lose by a length.
00:39:59So, it seems like once, I mean, you know, to Peter Anner, you know,
00:40:04let's just give her all the praise out there.
00:40:05I mean, Philly against boys.
00:40:07This was Zenyatta, Blame.
00:40:09When Uncle Mo won his two-year-old juvenile, that was the Blame Zenyatta year.
00:40:15And to watch Blame and Zenyatta, Blame, Zenyatta,
00:40:18it gave me a little bit of a feeling of 2010 with these two.
00:40:22What a great Philly three-year-old colt, three-year-old Philly champions.
00:40:27It was an unbelievable race.
00:40:29But honestly, there was a time I really thought Torpedo Anna had him.
00:40:34And I think fierceness dug in just a little bit more right before the wire
00:40:38and said, you're not going to get by me.
00:40:40And it was, you know, for a race to have all the hype that this has had
00:40:44and people were talking, you know, it really is why we love the sport so much.
00:40:49I mean, it lived up to the hype, man.
00:40:51It was special.
00:40:53Mike, and I'm glad you brought that up about Torpedo Anna,
00:40:56because I know you love the history of the game and you're a sportsman.
00:41:01You know, she almost beat you on a day where your horse ran the race of his life.
00:41:06And I saw you and Kenny McPeak, both of you were all smiles after the race.
00:41:10I can't blame Kenny for being happy with a loss because she ran so well.
00:41:17You know, what did you say to one another?
00:41:19And what impressions did you come away with?
00:41:23You know, I've been in that position and to be as, you know,
00:41:30to take a loss like that, as well as Kenny and Team Torpedo Anna took it,
00:41:35I was, I just, I congratulated them.
00:41:38But in a way, it's, I feel so uncomfortable to say, you know, hey, we won.
00:41:43Congratulations.
00:41:43And hey, you ran a great race.
00:41:45And, you know, I mean, the one, the biggest compliment I could give him,
00:41:49I said to him, I said, please keep this filly with the girls.
00:41:53I don't want to do this again.
00:41:55I mean, that's the biggest compliment I can give him.
00:41:57I was like, I don't want to face her anymore.
00:41:59I mean, she is, she ran an amazing race.
00:42:03I mean, I've tried Nest in the Belmont, ran second to Moldagano.
00:42:08That second, I didn't take too hard because I also own Moldagano.
00:42:12So it wasn't that bad.
00:42:13But I've watched Todd at Rags to Riches before this.
00:42:17You know, I mean, it's done once in a while and applaud the connections for taking a chance.
00:42:24And she did nothing.
00:42:25But, you know, I mean, she could have won the Alabama by seven.
00:42:29And, you know, she was second by a head to two-year-old champ and possibly three-year-old champ.
00:42:35And now it's, if all goes well, it's in Todd, you trust to map out a plan going forward.
00:42:41And I guess that plan is to train him up to the Breeders' Cup Classic.
00:42:46Is that kind of set in stone?
00:42:47Yeah.
00:42:48I mean, you know, Randy, if you would ask this after the Jim Dandy,
00:42:51we were telling you that he won't race until the Pennsylvania Derby.
00:42:54So that lasted for 12 hours.
00:42:56But this one, we're sure.
00:42:59I mean, he's probably not going to work for like, you know,
00:43:02probably six weeks before the Classic.
00:43:04He'll get some time off, came out of the race great.
00:43:07You know, that was a big surprise for Todd.
00:43:10Fierce has took the Derby, probably lost 75 to 100 pounds.
00:43:16Wasn't himself for about two or three weeks.
00:43:19Just needed to, you know, have that mid-year, you know, rest.
00:43:23And I think, you know, everybody knows me as only aggressive.
00:43:27I mean, I have a term out there, patiently aggressive.
00:43:30And, you know, I knew we couldn't run him in the Preakness and not even the Belmont.
00:43:34So we gave him time and Todd and, you know, did what he had to do.
00:43:39And Fierceness just responded.
00:43:41And, you know, I really believe we have a horse that's, you know,
00:43:46I really believe this is the best race he's ever run in his career.
00:43:49And I really believe there's a chance that his next one might be even better.
00:43:55Mike, if we're talking about this race next year at this time,
00:43:59maybe we're talking about Menti winning the Travers.
00:44:02That, of course, is the full brother to Fierceness.
00:44:04Ran the one time at Saratoga and we haven't seen him since.
00:44:07What's the update on him?
00:44:09He's he's worked the last two weeks incredibly.
00:44:12He had a fever and and when he got his fever, it was from a puncture wound.
00:44:19And it wound up that he he Todd caught this early.
00:44:25He had acute laminitis and he was he was in he was away for about 10 days.
00:44:33And, you know, Todd did.
00:44:36Thank God Todd and the doctors got him there quickly.
00:44:40Danielle Bricker, who's on my team, she went to visit him three times a day.
00:44:46And it got a little nerve wracking.
00:44:48And that this horse rebounded really incredibly well to come back and work three times.
00:44:57I mean, this is the behind the scenes story that a lot of people don't see.
00:45:02And, you know, you know, they say, oh, you know, sometimes you're going to retire a horse
00:45:06too early or come on, just do it for the fans.
00:45:09But they don't understand the stress and anxiety that Todd Pletcher or my team or even I wake up
00:45:17to every day with.
00:45:19All right.
00:45:19You know, I mean, you know, I got I would ask Todd.
00:45:21I'd wake up and ask Todd how Fierceness was before I would check on Joyer and Maria.
00:45:27And no disrespect to my wife, Maria.
00:45:29They'd be sleeping.
00:45:29So they were OK.
00:45:30Me and Fierceness weren't.
00:45:32So there is a lot of that stress that goes in between.
00:45:35And, you know, when you care as much as we do and most owners and trainers do about the horses,
00:45:40their family.
00:45:41And, you know, there's this you feel the pressure for them, you know, to perform, you know, like
00:45:47so, you know, like this happens like this is a tough part of the game that people don't see
00:45:54or don't understand.
00:45:55And you know what?
00:45:57We're lucky he's alive because this could have went one way or the other.
00:46:01That's what Lemonize does.
00:46:02And for him to rebound like this, like, you know, I mean, we feel great.
00:46:07And he was up at Saratoga, spent 10 days in the clinic, got back, galloped for two weeks.
00:46:13And, you know, and shout out to Danielle, who is amazing.
00:46:18And she slept with the horse for in his stall for a couple of couple of weeks.
00:46:22So maybe that helped a little bit getting him back to, you know, where he is today.
00:46:28Maybe this will be another Lady Eli story.
00:46:30That's really that's really something.
00:46:33So the last time we had you on the podcast, we not only talked about fierceness and about
00:46:36your horses, we talked about your new initiative, the National Thoroughbred Association.
00:46:41Give us an update.
00:46:42What's the we haven't read much about it lately.
00:46:44What's what's percolating with you?
00:46:47You know, it's probably nine months in right now, maybe 10.
00:46:50Pat Cummings is in Japan right now for an event out there.
00:46:55And, you know, I've learned a lot, Bill and Randy, about this game.
00:47:00I've dug in as deep as I can on, you know, not only the ownership side, but, you know,
00:47:07the track side, the the ABC committees that we have out there, stallions, the sales end,
00:47:15thoroughbred aftercare, the two year old sales.
00:47:18And, you know, I mean, Bill and I speak once in a while, just like me and you, Randy.
00:47:23And, you know, although I asked Bill, honestly, what he thought, you know, he was rooting for
00:47:29me, but he thought there's a low percent change chance that I can make a difference.
00:47:33And he said it was nothing against me.
00:47:35It's just the way the industry is, you know, is formed and shaped.
00:47:39But I think we're making a lot more progress than people think.
00:47:43First of all, there's more talk over the last 10 months than there's ever been.
00:47:48You know, many people agree with what I'm saying.
00:47:53The only negative feedback I get is they don't like the style.
00:47:57And you know what?
00:48:00Other styles haven't worked for 40 years.
00:48:03If you can show me a style that works where you just come in and you hold hands and you
00:48:08sing Kumbaya and I'll do it.
00:48:11That was my first option.
00:48:13But this is a game where 90 percent of the people want changes, but not the 10 percent
00:48:19that they do.
00:48:19Please, let's start with the other 90 percent.
00:48:21And it's become pretty selfish.
00:48:24And and and I have to look myself in the mirror.
00:48:28You know, if I want to be in this game three years, five years, 10 years, 25 years from
00:48:33now, I have to feel good about the sport that I'm in.
00:48:36And right now, I don't feel good about things like
00:48:40horse aftercare.
00:48:42I don't feel good about two year old sales.
00:48:44I don't feel good about how the sport is undermined by people inside our industry.
00:48:51I don't feel good about the committees that are making the calls.
00:48:55And I don't feel good about the selfishness.
00:48:58So listen, as much as I love winning races, I've been in the game for 20 years.
00:49:05To me, it's more important over the next five years that I have a lead role in helping
00:49:13change the game for the better, for not the next five months, but the next five to 25
00:49:18years.
00:49:19And I really believe that's my I'd rather do that than win a third drivers.
00:49:24And the first initiative that Pat and I are taking on, which you would have thought was
00:49:29a simple one to conquer was horse aftercare.
00:49:31Oh, come on.
00:49:32Everyone loves aftercare.
00:49:35Of course, when I dig in and see that the TAA, it's been around for 10 years, only raises
00:49:403.5 million a year.
00:49:42And that most of these agencies and horse rescue and aftercare facilities have to beg
00:49:49and plead, you know, for money, like, like, like, you know, and all these millions are
00:49:54being traded back and forth at the sales races, $10 million race, $6 million race, $20 million
00:50:01race Dubai.
00:50:02And we can't the day that horse is born, you know, doesn't matter if it changes hands once
00:50:09or 20 times in its career.
00:50:11We have to know that that horse is taken care of for the next 25 years of its life.
00:50:15And until somebody puts a system and process in place.
00:50:19And honestly, the things that I'm asking for Bill and Randy are really about little
00:50:24breakage, you know, 0.0025%.
00:50:29If you buy or sell a horse at an auction, which would raise $9 million.
00:50:35Okay.
00:50:36So if you buy a horse for 100,000, you pay $250.
00:50:41If you sell a horse for 100,000, you pay $250.
00:50:45And then the sales center chips in 0.001, which is $100.
00:50:51So you're talking about 600,000 on every 100,000 transaction on a million dollar transaction.
00:50:58It's $6,000.
00:51:00And I still haven't had FASIG sign on.
00:51:03I still don't have human sign on.
00:51:05And I still don't have OBS.
00:51:07I'm not saying that Boyd and Shannon are not going to do this because I'm initiating this
00:51:11on January 1st.
00:51:13You know, I'm going to say this.
00:51:14This is where people don't like me at times with or without him.
00:51:17I'm going to, this is going to happen.
00:51:18You know, the stallion farms, you know, Uncle Mo gets spread 200 times.
00:51:24We have to donate one breeding of Uncle Mo a year for over 100 breedings.
00:51:28So that's $150,000.
00:51:30Justify 300.
00:51:31Intermissive 250.
00:51:33You know, stallion farm, that would come out to another $4 million.
00:51:38That's $10 million.
00:51:40Justin's stallion fees, one out of 200.
00:51:43Randy, let's do the math.
00:51:44200 times 150,000, that's $30 million.
00:51:49I think $150,000 is okay, right?
00:51:52You know, so we can't do this anymore.
00:51:54And that nobody, and this is where I've been brutally tough and deserving on the Jockey Club.
00:52:01You're here to make the game better and move it forward.
00:52:05These are simple initiatives.
00:52:06If we can't do it after care, you know what, then this game has no chance.
00:52:12You know what, it's unfortunate, but I feel like I have to almost force change.
00:52:19And I hope that doesn't sound arrogant or cocky, but listen, if we care about this game
00:52:25five to 25 years from now, someone's going to have to be the bad guy or the disruptor.
00:52:31And you know what?
00:52:33If someone has to be the asshole, sign me up.
00:52:36I'm actually pretty good at it.
00:52:38I can actually play very well.
00:52:40And I'll enjoy doing it.
00:52:42You know, so that's it.
00:52:43And I feel that's my focus right now for 18 to 40 year old.
00:52:48I'm 55.
00:52:49I fell in love with this game when I was 13, 14 years old.
00:52:52You know, like, is it going to be around for the 15 year old?
00:52:55Is it going to be around for the 25 year old, the 35 year old?
00:52:58I got a lot of concerns.
00:52:59So that's what I'm doing right now.
00:53:01Well, we want to thank Mike Rapoli so much for joining us here as a Green Group guest
00:53:05of the week on the Thoroughbred Daily News Writers Room podcast.
00:53:08Congratulations, Mark, on a brilliant win by Fierceness.
00:53:11And what is absolutely the race of the year so far.
00:53:14Well done.
00:53:14And we'll see Fierceness in the Breeders' Goblet.
00:53:16Thank you, guys.
00:53:20All the thrills.
00:53:24Fraction of the bills.
00:53:28Experience the power of the partnership.
00:53:31Change your life, make new friends and compete at the highest level of Thoroughbred racing.
00:53:41West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
00:53:45Visit WestPointTV.com.
00:53:49Perhaps one of the most interesting stories, and Randy can agree or disagree,
00:53:55but one of the most interesting stories of 2024 was City of Troy's
00:53:59foray to the Breeders' Cup to have a tilt at the Breeders' Cup Classic on dirt.
00:54:04And one of our most interesting interviews was with his trainer, Aiden O'Brien.
00:54:09And he sat down with us in October to talk about how he was prepping his superstar
00:54:15three-year-old for the race of a lifetime.
00:54:18And Randy, we're so glad you're still here, even after Cormore tried to sniper you.
00:54:24Well, we're delighted on this week's Thoroughbred Daily News
00:54:27Writers' Room podcast.
00:54:28A very special guest, none other than Aiden O'Brien,
00:54:31one of the greatest trainers of all time and somebody who's going to probably
00:54:35make a lot of noise in the U.S. in the Breeders' Cup races coming up.
00:54:39Aiden, thanks for joining us.
00:54:40And all the buzz for City of Troy has reached our shores.
00:54:44We've heard about how good he is.
00:54:45We've heard about what you think of him.
00:54:47But when did you start thinking about the Breeders' Cup Classic for him
00:54:51and why the dirt instead of turf?
00:54:54Yeah, I suppose it was always on our mind.
00:54:55Obviously, Bill, we've never won a Classic.
00:54:58We've been placed in it a good few times.
00:55:01It's obviously a race that we'd love to win.
00:55:04But we know that you need an exceptional horse to do it, really.
00:55:07Obviously, he's by Justify, which makes it very exciting
00:55:11and always made it look like he could be very special for us.
00:55:15So he's pacey.
00:55:17He's hardy.
00:55:19He stays.
00:55:20He's determined.
00:55:21He has all the things we think he could have to make it happen.
00:55:27But obviously, it's a big ask to run on the dirt first time
00:55:31and a horse that's not trained on it.
00:55:34But we've went close with horses before, obviously,
00:55:37like a Giant's Pawsway and those horses.
00:55:40So you say he's not trained on it yet.
00:55:42Yet.
00:55:43This is pretty interesting, I think.
00:55:45We find it over here fascinating.
00:55:47The plans going forward, the immediate future for City of Troy,
00:55:51the September 20th workout at Southwell
00:55:54with an American Starting Gate.
00:55:57Explain to us the thoughts behind that
00:56:00and the logistics involved in getting it done.
00:56:03Yeah.
00:56:04I suppose, Randy, he'll fly over.
00:56:06It'll be like a race day farm.
00:56:07It'll be an artificial surface.
00:56:10Obviously, it's not dirt,
00:56:12but it's as close as probably we can get from here.
00:56:15And we don't want too big a change too quickly either.
00:56:18So it's a little bit of a change off of what he is used to.
00:56:23So yeah, obviously, to be out of American Gates with horses,
00:56:27we'd probably go a mile.
00:56:29And we probably do as much as we can to have him as ready as we can
00:56:32without changing his whole regime every day, I suppose.
00:56:38That's what we're trying to do.
00:56:39We're trying to do a little gently, really,
00:56:41rather than one big shock.
00:56:42And obviously, then the next one would be more severe for him.
00:56:46How many horses do you anticipate working with him?
00:56:50I suppose between five and eight, we think.
00:56:54Yeah, so it'll depend on what way it'll be.
00:56:58But we think we'd probably need at least five.
00:57:01So, Aidan, let me get this straight.
00:57:03You're going to load five or eight horses onto the Ballydoyle plane,
00:57:08take them to Southall,
00:57:09and you're also taking your American Starting Gate.
00:57:13When did you get an American Starting Gate at Ballydoyle?
00:57:16And can you just explain to everybody the difference
00:57:20between the English and the American ones and why?
00:57:24Yeah, they're bigger, they're stronger, they're closer.
00:57:26They go more to the ground and obviously the bell.
00:57:28And there is a different feel to them.
00:57:30We've had them a long time now,
00:57:31but it has made a big difference to us
00:57:33when we go to America with the horses.
00:57:36It's a whole different feel.
00:57:38The stalls look bigger, but they're not.
00:57:40They're tighter because the sides come in closer
00:57:42than our stalls do here.
00:57:44So, yeah, I suppose we're always trying to improve.
00:57:49When we do go over to try to have as much practice done
00:57:53for whatever situation we have to deal with, I suppose.
00:57:57Yeah, Zoe.
00:57:58Will you use a handler?
00:58:00Because I know that's been problematic in the past
00:58:02because you might not have one,
00:58:04but there'll be a guy next door that could spook your horse.
00:58:07Yeah, we probably will.
00:58:09And our horses are very used to it all the time.
00:58:14Now, from the time they start going into stalls,
00:58:16we treat them like the way you treat your horses in America
00:58:19with a handler that goes in there, sits with them.
00:58:21And like all the horses, we do that all the time
00:58:23so that if or when we go to America,
00:58:26there's no real change.
00:58:29Would the plan be to expose him to kickback?
00:58:33Yeah, I think so.
00:58:34Well, the surface we're going to work on,
00:58:37Ryan said there's not much kickback anyway.
00:58:40I'm not sure.
00:58:41My experience of kickback,
00:58:42either they either take it or they don't.
00:58:44And obviously you do your best not to be in kickback.
00:58:47I think that's the way I think all trainers
00:58:51approach it in America.
00:58:52If you have to, if you're in the situation,
00:58:53you're getting it, you can't do anything about it.
00:58:55But in an ideal world, you don't want to be getting it,
00:58:57really, sure you don't.
00:59:00Now, still several weeks to go,
00:59:01but Aidan, City of Troy will be the headliner.
00:59:03Can you just, at this point in time,
00:59:05can you tell us of other horses
00:59:07you're thinking of bringing to the Breeders' Cup?
00:59:09Yeah, oh, I suppose it's early,
00:59:13but we would have a lot of horses.
00:59:14Obviously, we have the filly, Content.
00:59:16She won the Yorkshire Oaks.
00:59:18And then we obviously would have two-year-olds, Bill.
00:59:21We always like to take a colt and a filly.
00:59:23And I suppose Whistlejacket is another one as a possible.
00:59:26He won the Marnie.
00:59:28He's going to run in the middle park next.
00:59:31So all those type of horses, really.
00:59:33Obviously, come that time of the year, who's well?
00:59:36But one thing we have learned,
00:59:38the horses have to be very good,
00:59:39have to be top class to go there.
00:59:40So it's like, obviously, we approach all group ones
00:59:44that if they're good enough, we'll take them and try.
00:59:47And if they're not, we won't.
00:59:49So another question I have on the City of Troy topic,
00:59:54we've seen over the years, you've seen over the years,
00:59:58the late, unfortunate late Super Sire Galileo.
01:00:03The form of Galileo sired horses
01:00:06typically didn't translate that well from grass to dirt, right?
01:00:11Yes.
01:00:11The dam of City of Troy, together forever,
01:00:15is a daughter of Galileo with theatrical also in that pedigree.
01:00:21So it's almost exclusively turf.
01:00:23And you've got Justify, obviously, as the sire.
01:00:25Does this horse remind you physically the way he runs?
01:00:30A little bit more of Justify, maybe, than together forever?
01:00:34I think he's always been a Randy.
01:00:37That way he goes forward.
01:00:40He went forward in all his runs as a two-year-old,
01:00:42and then he kind of blew up on us in the guineas.
01:00:45His first run, I probably had him too fresh.
01:00:48And after that, we kind of had to take our time with him here.
01:00:50Obviously, the style of racing is a little bit slower here.
01:00:53But I think naturally, he's aggressive, if you let him be.
01:00:57We haven't, after the first day, we didn't leave him be.
01:01:01But obviously, we had it in our minds,
01:01:03if everything went well the last day, he would be going here next.
01:01:06So Ryan went forward on him, and he did latch on.
01:01:10And I know, knowing the horse, he'd want to go forward more the next day.
01:01:14And if that was the case, that would suit your race, we think.
01:01:19How good do you feel the sons of Justify are worldwide?
01:01:23Because it seems like he's got it all.
01:01:25We see him running on dirt and turf over here.
01:01:28He's done well in Australia.
01:01:30He seems to be flying over in Ireland.
01:01:32What is it about him?
01:01:33Because physically, looking at him,
01:01:35and I spent a lot of time with him in Southern California,
01:01:37he just looks like your big, burly dirt horse.
01:01:41But he's got that.
01:01:43Yeah, like when we saw him first,
01:01:45like he looked a different breed of turbot altogether.
01:01:47Like, he looked like a big quarter horse, really.
01:01:49Right.
01:01:50Yeah, that's when we saw him as the first.
01:01:52Like, we could not believe the amount of muscle,
01:01:53and the power, and the scope, and the strength that he had.
01:01:57And then to be able to go get a mile and a half in the Belmont,
01:02:00like, it was just, it was freaky, really.
01:02:02So really, like, he's a different kind of a breed of turbot
01:02:05than we've seen ever before, we think.
01:02:07He's stock of a lot of class.
01:02:09They're very high cruisers.
01:02:11They're very genuine.
01:02:13They're very like Galileos, but they have more speed.
01:02:16You know, but I suppose what he did as a racehorse
01:02:18was just out of this world,
01:02:20like a horse that didn't run a two to win the Triple Crown
01:02:23and be that size, you know.
01:02:24So we just, we hoped, like, obviously,
01:02:28the boss obviously saw him, and he wanted him.
01:02:30And that's why he wanted the, like,
01:02:31he was just a different breed of turbot altogether.
01:02:34And that's what we're so excited about him,
01:02:36the way he's working here on the grass.
01:02:39And like, he looks like a massive, big, powerful dirt horse,
01:02:41doesn't he, really?
01:02:43So, you know, you're absolutely right.
01:02:45We always look forward here to seeing the Coolmore horses
01:02:48for the Breeders' Cup.
01:02:49The Breeders' Cup would not even be close
01:02:52to what it is right now without John Magner
01:02:55and the rest of Coolmore and the horses that you've trained
01:02:57coming over here, such sporting gestures,
01:03:00year after year after year.
01:03:03How much do you enjoy Del Mar as a site
01:03:05for the Breeders' Cup?
01:03:07Yeah, no, we love it.
01:03:08Obviously, we love walking on the beach.
01:03:11It's unique, isn't it, really?
01:03:13Like, obviously, when we go to the Breeders' Cup,
01:03:15it's a big, it's great for us to go over
01:03:19and experience it.
01:03:19I think you have to go and experience it
01:03:21to really believe it, the atmosphere and the hype.
01:03:25And, you know, it's just very special, really,
01:03:27that time of the year, and all the best horses are there.
01:03:30And it's the ultimate test, really.
01:03:34And it's interesting because when you come to America,
01:03:37you think, you know, you kind of go in
01:03:39and just mind your own business.
01:03:41But you've talked about how much you've learned
01:03:43from American trainers,
01:03:45in particularly Bob Baffert and Wesley Ward.
01:03:47What lessons, have you talked to them,
01:03:51or you just follow them from afar?
01:03:53And what have you learned from them?
01:03:54I'm not sure.
01:03:55Obviously, we've learned a lot from them,
01:03:56and always do, and try, and obviously weigh in as well.
01:04:00You know, so, like, every time we go,
01:04:02we learn a lot.
01:04:03And like, obviously, we would be friendly
01:04:05with all the American trainers.
01:04:07And like, they're always very forthcoming
01:04:11with information, what we should be doing
01:04:13and what they do.
01:04:14And obviously, we see everything that they do as well.
01:04:16And everything now is very public anyway.
01:04:18And it's broadcasted to everybody,
01:04:22which is a big help, I think, to everybody.
01:04:24Information kind of is all the key,
01:04:26is always the key.
01:04:27And experience of watching what they do
01:04:30and what we should do if we want to be successful
01:04:32or over there with you, really.
01:04:36What's left for Aidan O'Brien?
01:04:39You have won just about everything,
01:04:41aside from the Breeders' Cup Classic.
01:04:43Like, what are one of your goals that you're like,
01:04:46I really would love to win this race?
01:04:49Yeah, not really.
01:04:50We never approach anything like that.
01:04:52So we always try to do our best with every horse,
01:04:54take it as it comes.
01:04:55And I think if you start doing that,
01:04:57it just becomes too difficult and too much pressure,
01:04:59you know?
01:04:59So we try and do our best with every horse
01:05:02to get the best out of them
01:05:04and try and win whatever races we would like to win.
01:05:07But some races are very difficult.
01:05:09And like, obviously, like, it's the Classic,
01:05:11we haven't won.
01:05:11We've never won a Classic, you know?
01:05:13And we've ran very good horses in it.
01:05:14So it's very, very difficult.
01:05:17And we've tried very hard.
01:05:19But yeah, so all we can do is try again, really.
01:05:23Would you try the Kentucky Derby?
01:05:25Would you?
01:05:26Yeah, well, we have, and we have had runners.
01:05:28It's very tough in this part of the world,
01:05:30because maybe the preparation isn't as tough
01:05:34to get into it.
01:05:35I think a lot of the horses in the Kentucky Derby,
01:05:37it's a tough preparation,
01:05:38and they're really ready for it when it does come.
01:05:40We wouldn't be able to probably give them
01:05:42that preparation over here.
01:05:43But like everything, it's not impossible, we think.
01:05:46But you just have to have the right horse,
01:05:48and you don't win it with a second racer, really.
01:05:51So on that same general topic, Aidan,
01:05:54one of the big stories of American racing this year,
01:05:58especially this summer,
01:06:00has been that Godolphin and Charlie Appleby
01:06:03have sent basically a full-time string to stay
01:06:06in the United States.
01:06:07I think they've run 19 different horses this year.
01:06:10They've made almost $5 million in purses.
01:06:12Is that something you think that your bosses,
01:06:14the Mr. Magner and Tabor and Smith,
01:06:17might possibly be looking at for the future?
01:06:20Yeah, I'm not sure.
01:06:21Like, obviously, we have Valley Dial here,
01:06:23and we have all kinds of gallops,
01:06:24and it's not a plain journey away, really.
01:06:31That's all.
01:06:32So it's a very safe environment here.
01:06:36And I don't know whether the lads have looked at that,
01:06:39and I don't know whether they will or they won't,
01:06:41but it's not a long trip across the sea, really.
01:06:49Being the hard-hitting journalist that I am,
01:06:51I'm gonna ask you a real tough question,
01:06:53if you don't mind, Aidan.
01:06:54What's the story with the dog?
01:06:57We're minding her for Anna,
01:06:58and Anna is in America at the moment.
01:07:00It's San Francisco, and she's missing Anna.
01:07:02There's two of them there, so that's what's going on.
01:07:06And anybody who goes by the door,
01:07:07they think it's Anna, so.
01:07:09We're all dog fans.
01:07:11We enjoy the sound effect.
01:07:12It's really nice.
01:07:13Well done, well done, well done.
01:07:17I've got one more question.
01:07:18No problem.
01:07:19Aside, let's get off horses.
01:07:22Does Aidan O'Brien have a bucket list
01:07:24of a place he'd like to see, like to go?
01:07:27Would you want to jump out of an airplane?
01:07:30Is there something that you want to do other than horseback?
01:07:33Like, obviously, there's a lot of stuff,
01:07:35and I don't do much, ever.
01:07:36I go racing, and I go to the tracks,
01:07:38and I don't get time, really, to do anything, really.
01:07:41That's just the way my life is.
01:07:43It's seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
01:07:45And if we fail, we've done our best, and we can accept it.
01:07:53But if we fail and we haven't, it's just harder, you know?
01:07:57So the time will come, I presume, when that will happen.
01:07:59But at the moment, it's full on, and it
01:08:02has been for 25, 30 years, you know?
01:08:06But listen, hopefully, there's a...
01:08:08I see those places on telly at the moment.
01:08:10We hear that from trainers all the time over here, also.
01:08:14I remember talking to Bob Baffert,
01:08:16and when he had his unfortunate suspension
01:08:19a couple of years ago, a couple of summers ago,
01:08:21he took his family on a big vacation,
01:08:23and he said it was the first time he'd ever been able to do it.
01:08:26When's the last time you just went on a vacation,
01:08:30left it all behind?
01:08:32Yes.
01:08:33A week, two weeks?
01:08:35Yes.
01:08:36When?
01:08:36No, so we've never done it, really.
01:08:38We go to the Breeders' Cup every year,
01:08:40and that's our...
01:08:41And then we go from Breeders' Cup,
01:08:42we usually go to Barbados for a week
01:08:44to meet the lads in Barbados.
01:08:46And...
01:08:46But this year, we won't be because we have Augustus Rodin.
01:08:50The plan is for him to go to Japan after his next run.
01:08:54So we'll be trying to get back here as quick as we can.
01:08:56So hopefully, sometime we'll see those places.
01:08:59I think the Sandy Lane Hotel in Barbados qualifies as a nice vacation.
01:09:03Exactly, exactly, exactly.
01:09:06Before we let you go, I have one last question for you.
01:09:08This is the first time, I believe,
01:09:10that you've run horses at Kentucky Downs this year.
01:09:12And what are your plans in the future going forward?
01:09:16Will we see you participate even more?
01:09:18And how much of a buzz is it creating in Europe
01:09:21with these just unbelievable purses?
01:09:23Yeah, no, I think it's unbelievable, really.
01:09:26And that's what will bring horses.
01:09:28The purses will bring horses, and that's what's happening.
01:09:30And I think everybody's talking about it.
01:09:32And I think it's only going to become more popular and more popular.
01:09:36Everybody wants to be there.
01:09:39And listen, obviously, everyone knows training horses
01:09:41is an expensive operation and has to be funded.
01:09:46And for maybe horses that, especially Geldons or Coles,
01:09:49that maybe are not good enough to go to stud, it's a big outlet.
01:09:52And I think everyone is talking about it all over the world, you know?
01:09:55So, and I think it's going to get more and more popular, really.
01:09:59Very good.
01:10:00Meanwhile, I volunteer to take your place at Sandy Lane Hotel next year
01:10:04when you can't make it.
01:10:05Maybe we can do the podcast from Sandy Lane.
01:10:11That's on my bucket list, actually.
01:10:14All right.
01:10:14Well, Aidan, we want to thank you for joining us today
01:10:16on the TDN Writers' Room podcast.
01:10:18Best of luck with City of Troy.
01:10:19Keep up the good work.
01:10:21You're having a typical great year.
01:10:23And it was a joy to talk to you.
01:10:24And we'll see you at the Breeders' Cup.
01:10:26Look forward to it, Bill.
01:10:27Thanks.
01:10:30Thanks, everybody.
01:10:32Well, that's a wrap on this special edition
01:10:34the best of the TDN Writers' Room.
01:10:36Happy holidays to everybody.
01:10:38I want to thank my cohorts, Randy Moss, Zoe Cadman.
01:10:42I want to thank Sue Finley, our executive producer,
01:10:44and also our producers and editors, Katie Petruniak,
01:10:47Anthony LaRocca, and Aaliyah LaRocca.
01:10:49It's been a fun year, and we're going to have a great 2025.
01:10:53Happy holidays, everybody.
01:10:54Enjoy.