Category
😹
FunTranscript
00:00Alan Morgan found his wife's body in the back storeroom of their shop when he and their
00:09two children returned from the cinema on Thursday night.
00:13This is the position that she was left in.
00:16Yeah, I mean, it's horrific, isn't it?
00:20Carol's life was taken away from her at the age of 36.
00:25She deserves for the police to find who killed her.
00:35Carol should still be alive today and enjoying her children and her grandchildren, and somebody's
00:41robbed that of her.
00:43In over 40 years of investigative work, nobody had been charged with Carol's murder.
00:55The attack that was sustained on Carol was so ferocious and so brittle.
01:08We're investigating the murder that happened at the shop back in 1981.
01:12Everyone that loved her deserves to know what happened to Carol.
01:22The tragic element of this case is simply that it's not been solved.
01:34My case, if we ever get it there, is going to be circumstantial.
01:37Yeah, it is.
01:38So that's my overview.
01:40It's a bloody tough case.
01:42This is one last attempt to try and get justice for Carol.
01:58First and foremost, thanks all for attending this afternoon.
02:01I know it's a bit of a pain traveling here, but this case is really quite complex.
02:06There's a lot of ground to cover.
02:08There's a lot of information to talk about, and I thought it was really, really important
02:11that we're all in one room together for this briefing, rather than trying to do it at a distance.
02:18There are no forensic opportunities on this job.
02:20Unfortunately, all of the exhibits were destroyed, so I think it would be fair to say we've got
02:25nothing forensically.
02:27I'm Carl Foster.
02:28I'm the Detective Superintendent and Senior Investigating Officer for the investigation
02:33into the 1981 murder of Carol Morgan, known as Operation Markdown.
02:41So first and foremost, this is our victim, Carol Morgan.
02:46The scene of our offence is Finch Crescent in Linslade, and Carol and her husband, Alan
02:53Morgan, ran this business.
02:55And this window is actually the storeroom at the shop, and that is where Carol was murdered.
03:03Carol was alone in the store at the time of the attack as her husband, Alan, and her two
03:07children, Dean and Jane, not Alan Morgan's biological children, were out at the cinema.
03:13This is a picture of the scene with Carol's body still in situ.
03:18This was a pretty horrific and ferocious attack.
03:21Interestingly, no sign of a struggle at the scene.
03:27Carol was quite a simple person, you know.
03:32She'd been married previously and divorced.
03:35I mean, Carol's place in the community was based around the shop.
03:40It was the type of corner shop where, you know, kids would go in before school and buy
03:46their snacks or they might go on their lunch break.
03:50Often these shops are the hub of the community when there isn't an awful lot else round about.
03:56So Carol would have been really well known.
04:00She was the face of the corner shop.
04:06You know, she worked hard and she was a mother to two young children.
04:15These are the injuries that are caused to the head.
04:18You can see the huge laceration there.
04:22You can actually see a bit of the skull in that.
04:26And the second one here is just showing the tissue that's exposed as a result of the attack.
04:35That weapon that was used must have been a really sharp bladed article to have caused
04:42such brutal injuries, you know, and the images that these are taken from, what you don't
04:50see is that Carol had a load of hair in her hands from where she had obviously put her
04:56hands up to her head to protect her head.
05:00And we saw some hair left, hair residue left in her hands here.
05:07That's an injury on her finger that's potentially a defensive injury where she's been holding
05:13her hands up and that's been cut as a result of trying to protect herself.
05:19And these injuries, notably on her cheek, there's five parallel wounds.
05:30Carol didn't have anybody fighting for her to get justice.
05:36So that's our job, to get justice for her, to find who did this.
05:43This had a huge impact on the community and there was a lot of unanswered questions in
05:50the original investigation.
06:00Alan Morgan found his wife's body in the back storeroom of their shop when he and their
06:05two children returned from the cinema on Thursday night.
06:08Carol Morgan had been brutally battered to death and her skull was fractured.
06:13£500 cash and cigarettes worth £120 were missing.
06:18There could be relatives or friends shielding him out of loyalty.
06:22What would you say to them?
06:23Well, if he's done it once, he's going to do it again.
06:27And it was terrible.
06:29She got no idea what it was like when I walked in that stockroom.
06:32No idea at all what she looked like.
06:38I just hope they don't shield him too long or they don't shield him at all.
06:44Police want to interview a man seen getting into a car parked by this phone box 500 yards
06:50from the murder scene at 7 o'clock that evening.
06:53The attack can only be described as extremely violent.
06:56The motive is now quite clear, was one of theft.
07:00Cash and cigarettes are missing.
07:02But the form of attack was extremely vicious.
07:04You in fact have a description of the killer.
07:07Yes, a man was seen to leave the premises and we've now established that he drove away
07:12from the shop in a motor car.
07:14He's described as somewhere between 17 and 21 years of age, about 5 foot 7, 5 foot 8,
07:20slim build with fair brownish mousy hair.
07:24And the most peculiar thing that was noticed about him was that he had got rather piggy
07:28style nostrils.
07:30Was he carrying anything?
07:31At the time he was seen to be clutching to his chest two plastic bags which we will believe
07:37were both white.
07:38And do you think he was hiding anything?
07:40It would appear at this stage that the bags contained the stolen money and the cigarettes
07:44from the shop.
07:46In 1981, the original SIO focused very much on a burglary or a robbery that had gone wrong
07:53and that Carol had unfortunately been murdered as a consequence of the commission of that
08:01burglary or robbery offence.
08:07The main line of inquiry did focus around the sighting of this male and the witness
08:12that had seen him worked with the police to produce an image of that individual and this
08:18was a significant focus of the investigation at that time.
08:24Along with a vehicle that this individual had allegedly got into and travelled away
08:31from the scene in.
08:36A significant amount of work was focused around tracing that vehicle.
08:43A significant amount of work was focused around tracing that individual and we are talking
08:49about thousands and thousands of inquiries.
08:53In respect to the vehicle alone, there were 30,000 vehicles that the investigation team
08:59had to trace or eliminate.
09:05However, despite all of that effort, that individual was never positively identified
09:10and neither was the vehicle.
09:12Doesn't she look beautiful?
09:25Such a lovely photo.
09:28This is my favourite because look at her, she just looks so happy.
09:31Yeah, that's her smile.
09:33My auntie Carol was married to my uncle Richard.
09:37She had a wonderful relationship with my mum and they were sister-in-laws.
09:44My auntie Carol and uncle Richard had two wonderful children, Dean and Jane, who are
09:51my cousins and I have many fond memories of us growing up as children.
10:02So, this is the gingerbread group all dressed up for a party.
10:09Oh yeah, definitely.
10:12Aren't they lovely?
10:14Yeah, that's me and that's Carol.
10:22It's quite incredible that both of you end up divorced and go to this gingerbread group.
10:31That's where you met Eric and that's where she met Alan.
10:39Hearing about my auntie's murder was the worst shock in the world.
10:50Everything just stops and you think, well, that can't have happened.
10:55She went off happy and newly married with her children, start a new life
11:03and then suddenly everything has just changed in a moment.
11:11Why would someone murder a defenceless, innocent woman working in her shop?
11:23It's never made any sense to me.
11:26Why do something so grotesque, so brutal to anyone for a small reward, as it seems?
11:42Carol was a big part of our life back then.
11:45They all were.
11:46Just something you don't get over.
11:49No.
11:50Because it was so horrible.
11:53Yeah.
11:56Yeah, I'm okay.
11:59Just bringing back memories.
12:09Morning.
12:09Morning.
12:10You all right?
12:11Yeah, you?
12:11Not bad, thank you.
12:12Alan left here about five o'clock on the 13th of August with the children to head into Luton.
12:27That left Carol alone running the shop.
12:31It's usually shut at six.
12:32Six.
12:32But it was shut a bit earlier that night.
12:34Yeah, we think 5.55 because people tried to get in and couldn't get access
12:37and the doors were shut and locked.
12:39So, the next event after that is the sighting of the guy with the bags in a green,
12:46getting into the green car, isn't it?
12:48So, two ladies going to bingo, both see him, 10 past seven.
12:54So, the car was parked here and the phone box was here?
12:57Yep.
12:59Carol Bristow was in the phone box.
13:02She saw the man drop the bags, collect some coins and put them into the car.
13:07Right, the sighting by the telephone box is around 10 past seven.
13:09Yep.
13:11And then one of these bungalows…
13:12It's this low wall here.
13:14Yep.
13:15So, Christian and Valerie were sitting on this wall here.
13:19They're local kids, so they recognise Carol as the local shopkeeper,
13:22where they go and buy their sweets.
13:24Christian sees her walking back towards the shop, which is on the corner down there, with the dog.
13:30They tie him up and they go to the shop.
13:32So, if their account is to be believed, then Carol is still alive between half past eight and 9pm.
13:41And therefore, the man seen going to the green car with the bags
13:48could not have been Carol's killer.
13:50Correct.
13:54So, the man is still alive.
13:55Yep.
13:57So, the man is still alive.
13:59Correct.
14:03This male was hugely significant to the original investigation
14:07because he was the main line of inquiry that was pursued.
14:12But in pursuing that, they were absolutely focused on catching the murderer
14:18at the expense of other lines of inquiry or other hypotheses.
14:29The main issues we've got in this case is that, as a result of a mistake a long time ago,
14:40many of the original exhibits were destroyed.
14:44There's nothing we can do about it.
14:46There's nothing we can do to regenerate that material.
14:49So, let's get on with it and just work with what we've got.
14:55Afternoon.
14:56How you doing?
14:57I'm good, thank you.
14:58How are you?
14:59I'm all right.
15:00I've just prepared a couple of crime scene images from the original investigation.
15:09So, that's in the room that Carol was attacked in.
15:14So, that's the door in.
15:16And if you came in through that door,
15:18Carol would have been laying to your right-hand side in that corner, yeah?
15:20Yeah.
15:21Okay.
15:22And there's blood spatter up there.
15:25Up that door.
15:26Yeah.
15:27It's still quite heavy as well, isn't it?
15:28Yeah.
15:29Because it's got the tails where it's run down the door.
15:33Okay.
15:34So, this is how Carol was found.
15:37This is the position that she was left in by her killer.
15:42Yeah, I mean, it's horrific, isn't it?
15:44You can actually see parts of her skull.
15:48Yeah.
15:48And brain matter in what is a huge pool of blood.
15:57Yeah.
15:58I mean, it's overkill, isn't it?
16:00It is overkill.
16:01Yeah.
16:02And that's clearly something that we'll need expert opinion on in respect of those injuries.
16:09Yeah.
16:09Yeah, I don't think I've ever been to a crime scene quite as horrific as that.
16:15And interesting, actually.
16:16Carol's still got her wedding ring on.
16:19And this was supposed to be made to look like a robbery.
16:23And if it was a robbery, why did they not take this stuff that would have been valuable?
16:35I always find this image quite sad, really, because this is just a basket.
16:39So, we know Carol had a routine, don't we?
16:42That every day when she shut the shop up,
16:44she would get her milk and her eggs and her shopping to take up.
16:48And her keys are in there as well.
16:52So, you know, she was ready to go upstairs.
16:54But whatever happened, she never made it up there.
17:01Looking at the original scene images took my breath away
17:07and still continue to be embedded in my memory.
17:13And makes you determined to do everything that you can to get to the bottom of
17:22what happened to her.
17:27Some people might say,
17:29well, what's the point in investigating a murder that happened 40 years ago?
17:33When you look at the crime scene images and you see how she was brutally murdered,
17:40I would ask any member of the public,
17:44why is this crime any less serious just because it happened 40 years ago?
17:52WHISPERING
18:12Well, these are just a sample and a snapshot of the original statements
18:18from the investigation dating back to 1981.
18:20We've got, in total, around 500 witness statements.
18:25This was a huge investigation.
18:28There's over 5,000 documents, 6,000 documents in total,
18:32all of which have got information, evidence, intelligence
18:36that relates to the original investigation.
18:38So we need to go through all of that and understand all of it
18:41before we start making decisions about what we're going to do today.
18:45OK, so this is the witness statement from a neighbour
18:49and it's a statement that we would describe as a statement of early complaint.
18:53So he is the first person whom Alan Morgan goes and speaks to
18:59on discovery of Carol's body.
19:02So it's significant in that respect.
19:07I saw Alan Morgan come hurrying across the road.
19:11Then Alan came up to me and said,
19:13can I use the phone quick?
19:16I noticed that his voice was shaking, quivering
19:18and he appeared to be in a shocked state.
19:21Alan dialled a number and I heard him ask for the police.
19:24I heard him say, get somebody up to 61 Finch Crescent,
19:28my wife's laying in a pool of blood.
19:32I remember Alan saying at some stage that Carol, his wife, had been battered.
19:39Alan walked back into the house and I followed him.
19:42He opened the door of the stockroom,
19:44which is situated on the right-hand side of the passage.
19:48He turned on the light.
19:51He stood to one side and I looked in.
19:55I could see blood on the floor.
19:58I then stepped into the room and looked around the door
20:02and I saw Carol lying in a pool of blood in the corner.
20:08I made an exclamation and came immediately out of the room.
20:14Alan and I walked back outside.
20:16He broke down crying and I put my arm around him to comfort him.
20:21He was mumbling and I couldn't understand what he was saying.
20:26He did say, oh God, several times.
20:33For us, the interesting factors are that Alan goes across the road
20:37to use this individual's phone,
20:39despite the fact that there is a functioning telephone at his home address.
20:45It seems an odd thing to do.
20:48And then when this neighbour goes across to speak to Alan
20:52and is invited into the house,
20:54it's almost as if Alan opens the door of the stockroom
20:58to invite the neighbour to go in and view his dead wife.
21:06There are many, many reasons why that behaviour could happen.
21:10Sometimes that's down to shock.
21:13But through dealing with major crime on a regular, day-to-day basis,
21:19those reactions are the sorts of things that start to make us think,
21:23that doesn't look right.
21:26On their own, they're not anything that's significant,
21:29but what you've got right at the outset
21:31are a number of concerns around Alan Morgan
21:34and his behaviour towards this horrific event,
21:38which just don't ring true.
21:43BIRDS CHIRP
21:48On the night of Carol's murder,
21:50Alan was at the cinema at a double show
21:53and he had taken Carol's children with him.
21:59Dad was out.
22:01He came in about 12.15.
22:04He told us that we were going out to the pictures that evening.
22:08We both got ready and, with my dad and Jane,
22:11went to Luton in Dad's car.
22:14We went inside the cinema and waited until 6.25 to get our tickets.
22:20Then we went into screen three to see Sinbad,
22:23The Eye Of The Tiger and Super Snooper.
22:27We eventually came out at ten past ten.
22:31Alan's alibi has been checked.
22:33His alibi is concrete.
22:35There is nothing evidentially
22:38to disprove that Alan was at the cinema.
22:44So I have to accept that that's where he was.
22:53Clearly, we have original scene photography
22:57and we also have the post-mortem report made back in 1981.
23:04What we're able to do today is ask a forensic pathologist
23:09to review all of that evidence
23:12to give me an up-to-date interpretation
23:16about the way Carol was murdered.
23:19The injuries are in keeping with a severe head injury.
23:23Multiple blows indicate something heavy like an axe.
23:27You could also consider a cleaver, a machete.
23:31It's important to mention the heaviness
23:34and also either sharp or very sharp for the blows to the head
23:38because you've got some quite neatly cut bits of scalp there
23:42without any bruised or braided margins.
23:45It's been heavy enough to basically shatter the skull.
23:49This is when an excessive overkill...
23:53You probably only need to hit someone in the head once or twice
23:55with whatever weapon caused all that head injury
23:57and it has gone on and on and on.
24:01You could make a very clear case that there is intention to kill.
24:05This is way in excess of intention to cause serious harm.
24:08This is really bad from the outset and I think that's important.
24:12Because it's a funny old robbery to go there
24:14with the intention to kill someone as well.
24:19I have slight difficulty with some of what appear to be stab wounds
24:23on the trunk in relation to the same weapon
24:26that caused the chopping-type injuries.
24:29To me, that raises the possibility of a knife in addition.
24:33Yeah, so are you suggesting that could potentially lend itself
24:37to more than one assailant, then?
24:39Yes, I mean, it's always a very difficult question to answer,
24:42especially on pathology alone.
24:44But either change of weapon or more than one assailant.
24:49Did you mention, Nat, about the injuries to the face?
24:53Those we think were likely caused?
24:56Yeah, I think it's extremely unlikely that could happen first.
24:59I think these are much more likely to be either around the time of death
25:03or even after death.
25:04Right.
25:05Yes, I agree with that.
25:08Are you able to comment at all on why somebody might do that?
25:18It's almost like a disrespect to the individual.
25:21It's almost vindictive?
25:23Yes. Yeah. OK.
25:26In light of evidence provided by the pathologists,
25:30you have to move away from the original hypothesis
25:35and start looking at, well, if there's a personal connection
25:39between the murderer and Carol,
25:42what is the motive for murdering Carol
25:47and who is close to her that would want her to be murdered?
25:54It's seven months now since Carol Morgan died
25:57and police still haven't caught her killer.
26:00Mrs Morgan was alone in the shop she ran with her husband
26:03when the murderer struck.
26:05He killed her with an axe and robbed the till.
26:08Around the shop are neat rows of council houses.
26:11It's a well-cared-for area, unused to trouble of any kind.
26:15It's the only place in the world where a murderer
26:18can be found without a warrant.
26:20It's a well-cared-for area, unused to trouble of any kind.
26:24But since the killing, the tongues have been wagging.
26:27They're saying that Alan Morgan, Carol's husband, is the murderer.
26:31Despite having an alibi checked and accepted by the police,
26:35Mr Morgan can't convince some of his neighbours that he's innocent.
26:39So he's leaving.
26:41The shop has been sold at a big loss
26:43and everything Alan Morgan had is gone,
26:45apart from his two teenage children.
26:50There's quite a few other people who want the shop here
26:53because they're afraid of being caught up in the gossip.
26:56What are they saying about you now?
26:58It's a bit offhand that I killed my wife.
27:01As the police know themselves and you yourselves know,
27:04well, I was in Luton taking the kids to the pictures.
27:08What grounds do they think they've got for saying that?
27:11Well, because I was happy-go-lucky, I suppose, and...
27:16I was a bit of a womaniser, but that's all.
27:20That's the only reason.
27:26I live at Linslade, late and buzzard,
27:28with my wife Margaret and two children.
27:31Up until about two and a half months ago,
27:34I was not aware that my wife was having an affair with another man.
27:38She told me on a Friday night
27:41and she named the other man as Alan Morgan.
27:45I do anticipate that now Mrs Morgan has died,
27:48my wife and Alan will live together.
27:55As you know, it's been my view that our motive
27:59is essentially the classic love story.
28:02There's an ongoing affair between Alan and Margaret
28:06and that the motive is essentially embedded in that affair.
28:10One of the things I want to look at is what evidence have we got
28:13that demonstrates that love triangle existed,
28:16that that affair was ongoing in 1981.
28:19There was a fairly prolonged relationship, I think,
28:21between Alan and Margaret. Yeah.
28:23The suggestion is that they were calling it off
28:27or at the brink of calling it off,
28:29but actually the evidence flies in the face of that.
28:32There's anecdotal evidence that it was even found in bed
28:35the very next morning. Yeah.
28:40I moved to Leighton Buzzard in May 1980.
28:44I visited the shop quite often
28:46and I spoke to Alan Morgan and his wife, Carol.
28:50As time went on, I realised that Alan Morgan
28:53was seeing rather a lot of Margaret Spooner.
28:57We started the canal trip to London about mid-morning on that Sunday.
29:02Margaret left me on the barge and went off to meet Alan Morgan.
29:07The next day, about 9pm, I looked out and there was Morgan,
29:11sitting on the locked gate.
29:14Tuesday night, Morgan was not due to come to visit Margaret.
29:18We were both surprised to see him when he arrived.
29:21Margaret and Alan went off, apparently to get fish and chips.
29:27On the Thursday, I noticed that Margaret was crying or had been crying.
29:31She explained that this was the last day and then it was back to reality.
29:37There's very definitely a question about what was happening
29:41every night they were meeting up.
29:43Why were those meetings so intense?
29:45Why was it every night and why was it every night
29:50leading up to the night that Carol is murdered?
29:58At about 6.20 the next morning, Friday,
30:02I answered the door to Alan Morgan.
30:05He said, I've been robbed and Carol's dead.
30:10Alan was visibly upset but I had the feeling that he was play-acting.
30:14His grief seemed unreal.
30:18I did phone Margaret Spooner.
30:20She came inside the house to Alan.
30:22She put her arm around his shoulder and held his hand.
30:26He said, it won't be long now, darling.
30:30He went on to say, I'm sorry, I've had to tell them all about us.
30:35I was feeling physically sick and frightened at Morgan's words to Margaret.
30:42What won't be long? What won't be long?
30:46Your wife's laying dead on the floor in the shop that you run with her.
30:52It's within six weeks of Carol's murder
30:57that Margaret actually moves into the shop with Alan and Carol's two children.
31:05So when you look at all of that put together,
31:08of course it raises suspicions
31:11because all of that activity suggests
31:14that's what Alan and Margaret wanted to happen
31:19or planned to happen or made happen.
31:36You know, we've talked extensively around the affair
31:40but let's hone in on that now.
31:43What have we got, what are we in possession of
31:46that would enable us to demonstrate that that affair was ongoing?
31:51This is when he was in Malta in March 1982.
31:56Alan's been quite a saying, I don't feel any guilt.
31:59I know people are saying now that Carol has only been dead for a little while
32:02and I shouldn't be sunning myself on a beach with Margaret
32:04but my marriage was as good as over.
32:06Although Carol and I were going to have another go at it when she was murdered.
32:10I can't go on mourning forever.
32:11Bearing in mind this is six months later, seven months later.
32:15I think the interesting thing on Alan Morgan's comment in the national press
32:21that he says I can't go on mourning forever,
32:23well you didn't mourn at all
32:25because the morning after your wife was murdered
32:28you were in bed with your mistress.
32:29So if you cared one jot about Carol
32:35then surely any normal human being under those circumstances
32:40would not be flaunting their life in that way
32:47and disrespecting Carol's memory
32:51quite as openly as Alan and Margaret seem to.
33:00How did the death of your wife affect you?
33:02Affect me?
33:03Well I closed the business for seven weeks
33:05while the police were investigating it.
33:08I lost a lot of stock throughout
33:11and I've had to sell the business now at a loss.
33:15The kids are alright
33:17but I think myself and the kids think that it would be better to get away
33:20because it's their future.
33:22They've got to live with the shadow over them all the time.
33:25Well that quote just says it all.
33:27Very cold and a very selfish statement.
33:32It's all about me.
33:34And yes it raises my suspicion about
33:39it's just not a natural response.
33:42It's not a natural response to somebody having just been murdered.
33:48Are the police any nearer in fact catching the person that did kill your wife?
33:51Well they're saying they are
33:54because they're eliminating people all the time.
33:56So they must be nearer to catching the person.
33:59If ever they do catch the killer will you come back here?
34:03I don't know. It all depends.
34:05I'd like to get hold of the killer though.
34:07That's what I'd come back for.
34:13So what are we able to evidence
34:16that there would have been a financial motive for Carol's murder?
34:22And straight away I'm thinking well we know the shop was failing.
34:27That's about right isn't it?
34:29Yeah they had two accountants
34:31and both have provided statements to the effect that
34:34they were effectively living hand to mouth.
34:36They were eating their own stock.
34:38Cheques were bouncing.
34:39They couldn't afford to carry on as they were.
34:42They were particularly worried about the small amount of profit they were making
34:45and were seeking my advice on selling that business
34:48in order to buy a more profitable one.
34:52I did look over the books of a similar shop
34:55but I advised them against the purchasing of that particular shop.
34:59Carol became very upset and began crying.
35:03She told me that they had built their hopes on the shop
35:05as they wanted to get away as they were so unhappy.
35:09Before I knew the Morgans they had negotiated a loan.
35:13There was an insurance policy payable on first death.
35:19The significance of the life insurance.
35:23It was a £6,000 loan originally taken out
35:25and this was cleared on the payment of that insurance to Alan
35:28so the shop was effectively paid for.
35:30And I seem to recollect that that was also paid off very, very quickly.
35:35Yeah, that was within a couple of weeks.
35:37And we know he's lied to the press when he said to the Observer
35:41my wife wasn't insured, I had nothing to gain.
35:44We know at that point he's already been paid off.
35:47So clearly the only people that stood to gain anything by Carol being murdered
35:52were Alan and Margaret
35:54because effectively it cleared the way for them to be together.
35:58They couldn't just walk away and be together
36:01because of the financial implications of doing that.
36:04However, with Carol dead, those financial burdens didn't exist
36:10because they'd been wiped off.
36:14So this is Alan and Margaret after they'd moved away from Linslade
36:18and they'd bought a new shop together.
36:20Remind me of the time together that day.
36:22This was later in 1982.
36:24After Malta.
36:25Yeah.
36:26So Malta was March.
36:28Yeah.
36:29So that's seven months after Carol's murder.
36:32And I think not long after that they've then moved up north
36:35and then they've gone on to get married.
36:38There's more than enough there, I think, in the motive
36:41to get Carol out of the way so that they could carry on
36:44but doing it in such a way that left them financially sound and viable
36:48to be able to carry on.
36:50Motive-wise, I'm quite satisfied that that's the basis of the problem
36:53which we should be moving forward with the investigation
36:56and ultimately if we ever get to the prosecution stage
36:59presenting our case on the basis that there's your motive.
37:04My decision is to bring both Alan and Margaret in under arrest
37:09to interview them about the circumstantial case that we have.
37:14We're going to see if either of them want to say anything
37:17that may help us prove or disprove
37:21who's responsible for Carol's murder.
37:30BEEPING
37:44The life!
37:51Morning.
37:52Morning, please.
37:53Hiya.
37:54Can we come in?
37:55Yes, can I help you, please?
37:58OK, well, can you wait here, then?
38:00Is it Margaret?
38:01Yeah.
38:02Let's go in there.
38:04Morning, Margaret. Hello.
38:06I've just come in here with my colleagues.
38:08It's good to see you, Margaret.
38:11What's this here? Is Alan upstairs?
38:13Alan's upstairs.
38:14OK, I'll pop him to you, then.
38:23Morning. Are you Alan?
38:25Hello, Alan, I'm from the police.
38:27I've come to arrest you this morning
38:29on suspicion of the murder of Carol Morgan
38:32on the 13th of August, 1981, at Linslade,
38:36Lynch Crescent, OK?
38:37OK.
38:38You don't have to say anything, but may I have your defence?
38:41Do not mention or question something which may lay out in a reliant court.
38:44Anything you do say may be given in evidence, OK?
38:47Mm-hm.
38:48I'm arresting you on suspicion of conspiracy to murder...
38:51What?!
38:52..and the murder of Carol Patricia Morgan
38:54on Thursday, the 13th of August, 1981,
38:57at 61 Lynch Crescent, Linslade, in Bedfordshire.
39:03How come I'm getting arrested for this?
39:06It'll all be explained when we get to the station.
39:08We can't talk about it any further at the minute, OK?
39:14Two people have been arrested for the murder of a woman in Bedfordshire
39:17nearly 40 years ago.
39:19Carol Morgan was found dead in the storm...
39:21A man aged 69 and a woman aged 70 from Brighton
39:24were arrested on suspicion of her murder.
39:27Detectives say they're currently being held for questioning
39:30and additional work will be carried out in the Brighton area.
39:37Alan and Margaret have escaped any questioning for 38 years.
39:44This will be the first time that they've been asked for an account
39:48under caution.
39:49Anything could be said.
39:51We've no idea what they're going to say.
39:55The nurse said he was extremely nervous.
39:58He's physically changed colour.
40:00He's visibly shaken and anxious.
40:04No doubt he's contemplating whether he ought to be telling us the truth or not.
40:09Well, yeah.
40:11I mean, you wouldn't be nervous, would you,
40:13if you had nothing to worry about?
40:16No.
40:17Interesting.
40:18Yeah.
40:19OK, see how the day pans out.
40:26Are you responsible for the murder of Carol?
40:29No.
40:34I'm going to ask you, are you responsible for the murder of Carol Morgan?
40:37No.
40:39Did you have any involvement in the planning, arranging
40:42or encouraging any person to murder Carol?
40:44No.
40:45Right.
40:47You understand that the murder of your wife was never solved?
40:53Yes.
40:54And we were still looking for the person responsible?
40:57Yes.
40:59Do you have any information about who is responsible?
41:04No.
41:05Not at all.
41:18Oh, well, I'm a police officer, there's nothing to worry about.
41:21We're investigating the murder that happened at the shop back in 1981.
41:25Yeah.
41:26Yeah.
41:27When Alan tells you about what's happened to Carol,
41:31how did you feel, Margaret?
41:33I was just shocked, horrified.
41:38I don't know.
41:39It's one of those sort of, you know...
41:41What?
41:42Yeah, completely horrified, completely shocked.
41:46The last thing you expect to hear.
41:51We don't have any forensic evidence.
41:53We don't have any eyewitness accounts.
41:57Because of the timescale, we haven't got any technical evidence
42:01like CCTV, mobile phone technology.
42:03You know, those things didn't exist in 1981.
42:06I've heard that her husband done it,
42:08that he took the kids to the pictures and come home.
42:10Yeah.
42:11That's what I heard.
42:13I'm not saying he did, but when you hear these things...
42:18The common thought was it was her husband.
42:20Yeah.
42:21But, I mean, that's all I know.
42:24OK, and where's that come from, sort of?
42:26Just general chatter round the neighbourhood.
42:29The older members of the family,
42:31the younger members of the family,
42:33chat around the neighbourhood.
42:35The older members of the sort of community seem to think...
42:46So you're quite clear that the children never saw their mother?
42:49No.
42:50They never went into the stockroom?
42:52No.
42:53You didn't touch your wife at that point?
42:55I never touched her.
43:00No, I didn't.
43:02Did you think she was dead at that point?
43:08Were you sure she was dead at that point?
43:23Didn't look like a genuine response to me at all.
43:26Seemed to recover very, very quickly from being close to tears,
43:30but I didn't see any tears at all.
43:36But it doesn't strike me as a genuine response.
43:40From what you're telling us, you didn't even see Alan that week
43:43because you were on the boat?
43:45Yeah.
43:46And you didn't see him the last time?
43:48No.
43:49The time you saw him before Carol, or after Carol was murdered,
43:53time for that was the weekend before you went away?
43:56Probably, yeah.
43:58If that?
43:59If that, yeah.
44:02So Margaret's saying that she never saw Alan on the lead-up to the murder,
44:07but we know that that's a lie.
44:10So you hadn't seen him for a good few days?
44:13No.
44:14So you didn't know what he was up to in those days?
44:16No.
44:17No?
44:18No.
44:21It would have been quite legitimate for her to say,
44:23oh, my God, I can't remember.
44:24I know I was on a boat trip, but I can't remember when I saw Alan.
44:27She doesn't say that.
44:28She says, I was away for a week, I didn't see him.
44:43We are allowed to hold somebody in custody for 24 hours.
44:47However, there are circumstances where I can have that custody time
44:52extended by a further 12 hours to 36.
44:57Which will then, hopefully, get me to a point
45:00where I could be approaching the Crown Prosecution Service for a charge.
45:07Yeah, everybody in, everybody happy?
45:16The level of violence is well in excess of overkill.
45:19Mainly in the results of the head, made with a heavy weapon.
45:22Potentially an axe, machete, cleaver, or the edge of a spade.
45:27Facial injuries are personal to the offender and the victim.
45:30They're disrespectful and they're mutilation.
45:33Therefore, it must be personal.
45:35He said, it's over the subject of robbery,
45:37and there's a clear intent to cause serious harm and clear intent to kill.
45:40From what I've told you of those reports,
45:43is there anything you want to tell me about any of that?
45:46They sound terrible.
45:48It's far more than sounds terrible.
45:52It is direct, expert witness evidence
45:55that the person who's responsible for Carol's murder
45:59is very, very close to her.
46:13We know from a number of witness accounts
46:18that there was a machete present in the shop.
46:49I believe that the machete that was described by numerous people
46:53that used that shop and saw Alan using it
46:57is the item that was used to murder Carol,
47:01and that Alan knows that,
47:04and that's why he is distancing himself from its existence.
47:09Now...
47:12..obviously, you're in here for conspiracy.
47:15Is this because that was all part of the plan,
47:17that you knew what the plan was, how he was going to do this?
47:20I had no idea... OK.
47:23..that anything like this was going to occur.
47:26OK.
47:28You said to me about, that you had a loan for the purchase of the shop.
47:32Yes.
47:33And that was a loan rather than a mortgage?
47:35Yes.
47:38So, after Carol's death, did you have to carry on paying that loan?
47:42I did.
47:43When I sold the shop, you know, paid it off.
47:46Well, we know that's not true.
47:48We know that the loan was paid out on Carol's death,
47:51so we never had to make another payment on that loan
47:54because it didn't exist after Carol was murdered.
48:05Our police records show that you've got a conviction on that date.
48:09Oh.
48:10It doesn't normally come as a surprise to people.
48:12It does to me.
48:14What's it all about?
48:15Insurance fraud.
48:19I don't know.
48:20What was it for?
48:22Insurance fraud? Yeah.
48:24Did that all happen without you realising?
48:26I don't know, though.
48:28I don't know that I've got a criminal conviction,
48:31where I would have been arrested, interviewed,
48:34where I went to court and I was convicted.
48:37It's just such a bizarre thing to say.
48:39It's almost like over the course of the last 40 years
48:42he's tried to reinvent himself
48:44and doesn't want to admit that he has got a chequered past,
48:47but he has.
48:49We're obviously aware that he had a previous wife named Sandra.
48:52Yeah.
48:53And had children.
48:55Yeah.
48:56I think it's fair to say that it was quite a volatile relationship.
49:01A volatile marriage and also with the children.
49:04Yes. Yeah?
49:07Exactly two weeks after marriage, our relationship began to change.
49:12I was informed by a colleague of Alan's at the bus station
49:15that he was having an affair with a woman at work.
49:18I challenged Alan about the affair
49:21and he became violent towards me.
49:25In November 1971, Sandra told Alan she was pregnant
49:28and Alan punched her in the stomach, saying he didn't want kids.
49:32Pushed her down the stairs with him in further assaults.
49:37Which could have been, and this is her words, not mine,
49:40a contributory factor to one twin dying at birth.
49:47I would describe Alan as a selfish, moody person,
49:51prone to violent outbursts of temper.
49:54His fits of temper would occur for no apparent reason.
49:57He was particularly violent when drunk.
50:00And thought nothing of hitting.
50:03Your ex-wife, she's given a statement, Sandra, this is,
50:07where she's detailed an abusive relationship
50:09where you're subject to extreme violence.
50:12She states that you punched her in the stomach
50:15and this may have been the cause of the loss of your twins.
50:20Paula was the surviving twin.
50:23So she was pregnant at the time with two kids
50:26and she's saying you punched her in the stomach
50:29No. Paula was a single baby because I brought her into life.
50:35Right.
50:36Simply on the balance of probabilities,
50:38with all of these people giving all of this information
50:42about what a nasty, abusive, violent man Alan is...
50:52..what they're all making it up.
50:54She says he used belts and other weapons to assault her.
50:57Which one? Oh, that's nice.
50:59Alan, deny it if you...
51:01No, I'll do it.
51:04And you're also violent towards children.
51:06No, I was not.
51:07Tell me about how you're violent towards children.
51:10Smacking them or doing something wrong.
51:13It's important to understand someone's character.
51:17We call it bad character.
51:19So it just paints a full picture of that person
51:22and their propensity to commit these types of offences.
51:26So in the case of Alan, for instance,
51:28we know he's got a history of violence
51:30and he's got a history of dishonesty.
51:34She's got here as well that you were violent towards children
51:37and on one occasion you tied Paula to a chair
51:40and then you beat her to the extent
51:42that she needed to get medical treatment.
51:44Pardon? I don't think so.
51:46Do you want to ring Paula up now and find out?
51:48So you're denying that here? I am. OK.
51:52My dad would come into the room that I shared with Kristen
51:55and invariably I'd wet the bed,
51:58which would make my dad really angry.
52:01And he would get me out of bed,
52:03make me sit on the chair in the middle of the room in my wet clothes.
52:07I called this the punishment chair.
52:11He would then make me stand, bent over the chair
52:15and he would take a belt and hit me with it.
52:18Dave said to you about your daughter
52:21and you said you could go and ask her?
52:23Yes.
52:24We went and spoke to her and spoke to her again yesterday.
52:27Paula? Yes.
52:29Paula's given us details that you were physically abusive
52:32towards her as a child, is that correct?
52:34I'd be telling her off and whatever.
52:37The question is, were you physically abusive towards her?
52:40No. Did you hit her?
52:42Yes.
52:44Did you hit her so it would leave a mark?
52:46It would leave a bruise?
52:48Not that I know of.
52:50Not that I know of.
52:51Did you use any implements to hit her, any belts?
52:54No.
52:55Not that I know of.
52:56Or anything else?
52:57Not that I know of.
53:00I don't know whether I've blocked out other hurtful memories.
53:04I wish I could remember them.
53:06I had a fear of my dad.
53:09I do not recall hugging my dad or him hugging me.
53:14The only physical contact between us was violence.
53:20And it's a completely different man to the one
53:22that you're telling us about.
53:24So if there's any information, Margaret, that you've got...
53:26Honestly, this is such a big shock.
53:28Sorry. It's all right.
53:30If there is anything...
53:32It's a totally different man that I know to that.
53:35Yeah.
53:39Two people arrested yesterday on suspicion of committing murder
53:4338 years ago in Bedfordshire have been released on bail.
53:46Police say inquiries are continuing...
53:48Police are appealing for anyone with information,
53:50no matter how small, to get in touch
53:52and speak to the dedicated incident room.
53:56A decision has been made to release Alan and Margaret
54:00because, based on the information that we've gathered
54:05during this interview phase,
54:07there isn't enough evidence to charge them yet.
54:10So the investigation will carry on.
54:14My thanks to all of you for everything you've done so far.
54:17There's still a long way to go and a lot more to do,
54:20but I'm grateful for everybody's investment so far, so thank you.
54:23So I'll start with Gerry, if that's all right, mate.
54:26So I covered off Lambuzzard and, um...
54:31..the searches there, which revealed nothing, in essence.
54:36OK. Denise, is there anything significant in that investigation
54:41or is there anything significant in those interviews
54:44that raises actions and things that we need to go away and investigate?
54:47Not massively. No.
54:49That was my view as well. Yeah.
54:51With Margaret, I mean, she took everything in her stride.
54:55I mean, she didn't have a huge amount to say.
54:57We couldn't really test her on... No.
54:59..on an awful lot.
55:01I think it's interesting that he couldn't even admit
55:04that he's got a criminal conviction.
55:06It almost supports this kind of the clean slate
55:09when Carol's murdered, manipulating everybody, brainwashing everybody
55:12about what a wonderful people and what a wonderful family they are,
55:15and he's almost convinced himself that that's the case,
55:18that he now can't go back and accept that he had a criminal conviction.
55:22So it's bizarre.
55:25I don't think there was a great deal came out of either interview,
55:29so, you know, we kind of are where we are evidentially around that.
55:33I feel frustrated and feel like we're just not getting the break we need.
55:41I believe that we have a very, very strong circumstantial case,
55:46but what we're missing is that piece of direct evidence
55:51to hang all of the circumstantial evidence off of.
55:57A new witness has come forward with new evidence
56:01that calls into question Morgan's so-called alibi.
56:07Were you involved in any way of arranging Carol's murder?
56:11No.
56:12Did you murder your wife, Carol Morgan?
56:15No.
56:31No, I didn't.