Sisters for Life?!? Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

In this podcast episode, we explore family dynamics, discussing conflicts, health challenges, and religious influences. Speakers share personal stories on loyalty, honesty, and navigating family judgments. The importance of open communication, setting boundaries, and breaking unhealthy cycles in familial relationships is highlighted for fostering genuine connections and stronger bonds.  GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND AUDIOBOOK!  https://peacefulparenting.com/  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00I've listened to you for a long time. So it's a little surreal to talk to you.

00:00:05Hopefully, it doesn't stay too surreal. It doesn't get weirder and weirder. Hopefully,

00:00:10I'm sure we'll, we'll avoid that. But yeah, go ahead.

00:00:15I think that the first there's like kind of two things I think I'd like to get out of this call

00:00:22as much as we're able is I want to be like a better wife and a better mother. And I feel like

00:00:32there's conflicts in my husband and my relationship that are often due to outside us factors. But then

00:00:45they're affecting our kids and our family. Because yeah, sometimes we're fighting and that's not

00:00:54helpful for our family.

00:00:57I get that. And what are you guys fighting about?

00:01:06There's a lot of it is driven by I think, our extended families.

00:01:10Um, sorry, and I'm sorry, I was completely imprecise in my question. My apologies.

00:01:17What's the surface level stuff that you're fighting about? You know, like people fight

00:01:20about dishes or money or sex or like, what's what's the surface level stuff that you guys

00:01:24are fighting about? How do the topics manifest?

00:01:27I would say it's often like, I got really hungry and wanted to go like, through the

00:01:36Taco Bell drive through to have something to eat like immediately. And then he I like I made I like

00:01:43said it multiple times. And then one of the kids said they wanted to go to a different restaurant

00:01:49for lunch. And then he was like, Oh, great, let's go to the Taco Bell drive through. And then he

00:01:54was like, Oh, great, let's go head up this other restaurant. And then we had to wait too long to

00:01:59get our food. And then I got really upset. And it has a recent example. Okay, no, that's good.

00:02:05No, that's, that's good. And I appreciate it's amazing how small these things are. But then how

00:02:10big how big they can deep right? How big they can big they can dig. So you are hungry, and

00:02:18you wanted Taco Bell, your husband didn't want Taco Bell. And you ended up going to some other

00:02:23restaurant where it took too long to get your food. Is that right? Yeah, hearing the kids,

00:02:28so it's, it's usually something else, like someone else, whether it be our kids or extended.

00:02:38I mean, it's mentioned a different restaurant. Oh, I like that one. And then end up going that

00:02:41direction, not realizing, wait, that one takes a little bit longer. And my wife actually needs

00:02:45something now. And then she gets hurt by that. She needed something now. And her voice was not

00:02:51heard. I mean, I did not care. I think that's a good way of summarizing.

00:02:55Okay, so I mean, there's the words, and then I mean, I'm sure you guys know all this stuff,

00:02:59right? So I'll just touch on it briefly. There's the words, and then there's the meaning, right?

00:03:04So yeah, if it's like, well, we're not going to Taco Bell is the words. And the feeling is,

00:03:12you don't care about me. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was like, I just want

00:03:19a quick taco from the drive through. And then I want to go home and have an actual meal.

00:03:25Ah, so you you just wanted a tide me over. They call it or something like that, right?

00:03:29Yeah, that I was just destined for I'm like, you know, nine months pregnant,

00:03:32and I just needed some food. We spent too long at the beach because you're

00:03:36food to a woman nine months pregnant, you monster.

00:03:41Eating for three and a half. It could be twins in their triplets. Who knows your whole village?

00:03:46Okay, just kidding. All right. All right. All right. Yeah. Sorry, you did hear your wife

00:03:53say she want to talk about right? Yes. And what was your thought processes? Do you the husband?

00:03:59What is your thought process? About? Yeah, that. Yeah, so my thought process, I don't mind Taco

00:04:06Bell, we could have gone there. But I was immediately thinking, well, for going when

00:04:10to go out to eat, might as well do something better. And then when a kid mentioned a different

00:04:16restaurant, and that sounded better. So then I mentioned that one to her. And I think part of

00:04:23the problem can be sometimes where I mentioned something to her, and then she agrees with it,

00:04:28but doesn't really agree with it, because she feels like she needs to agree with it.

00:04:32And it might stem a little bit from her family. Well, I mean, to be fair, all of the kids then

00:04:38hopped on board and wanted that restaurant instead of just doing a taco drive through.

00:04:44That's probably hard. It's hard for her then to be the only person when everyone else wants the

00:04:48other thing. But then that's where I as the husband should be saying, Nope, she needs this. Let's do

00:04:52this. Okay, sorry, I'm a little confused, because I thought it was just a snack so you could eat at

00:04:59home. So what's the other restaurant? It doesn't matter what the restaurant is, I don't understand.

00:05:08So if, you know, if the wife is just like, I need something to eat, because I'm crashing here,

00:05:13and you know, then we'll have a proper meal at home. Where does the other restaurant thing come

00:05:18into it? Because that's not what she wants, right? She wants like a snack at Taco Bell, right?

00:05:23Yeah. And so, yeah, we're going to eat at home. So I think then that

00:05:28the idea of a different restaurant, all of us eating together sounded better.

00:05:33I think you wanted to be here.

00:05:34Let me just, sorry, just make sure I understand. So sounded better to who?

00:05:39To me. Now, was it partly that you wanted your wife to have a better experience

00:05:47by having a proper dinner in a restaurant with the family?

00:05:52No, I think it was to have like, a meal together as a family in the restaurant versus just my wife

00:05:59picking up something. And that's probably where the problem. She wanted just a quick

00:06:04nap. I was thinking about as more of a family meal. But that directly opposes what she wants,

00:06:11essentially. Well, what's wrong with a quick snack, and then you go for a meal? I'm sort

00:06:17of trying to figure out where the disagreements came from here. So your wife wants a quick snack,

00:06:23and you want to eat at a restaurant. So she grabs a quick snack, and then you go to a restaurant.

00:06:27Is it something like that?

00:06:31That could have been a good solution.

00:06:34I mean, that is, you know, because there's this typical thing. And I remember, of course,

00:06:38when my wife was pregnant, you know, like, I want dill-pickered flavored potato chips and some

00:06:44ice cream. And it's like, okay, I don't know what weird alchemy is going on down

00:06:48to that little furnace of a belly there. Or that not so little furnace of a belly.

00:06:53But you know, you run over hell's half-acre to get what your wife wants,

00:06:57particularly when she's pregnant, right?

00:07:00Well, I think I just spent most of the last six years pregnant.

00:07:04So it doesn't really seem like anything special.

00:07:09I don't know what was mentioned, but we have four kids, six and under, and then the fifth on the

00:07:14way, that'll be under seven. So five under seven. So it's just been like a constant baby.

00:07:23She's kind of a baby factory. So you get her a snack.

00:07:26I almost said that. Yes, I almost said that.

00:07:27So you get her a snack. She's a conveyor belt. My gosh.

00:07:34Okay, so I'm trying to figure out, so the communication thing is, I need a snack,

00:07:39and then you transform that into, let's all sit down for a meal at a restaurant,

00:07:44and then she ends up not getting any food because the restaurant is going to take,

00:07:47is it like one of these places, like, we might be able to suit you in 45 minutes kind of thing?

00:07:52No, it was probably took 15 extra minutes to get food than if we had gone to the other place.

00:08:01But it's also like a drive-through versus sitting in a really crowded space.

00:08:07And when I am really, really hungry, I get anxious around a lot of people.

00:08:13And it was super crowded in there.

00:08:13Why do you get anxious around people when you're hungry?

00:08:16Did you come from a predatory family?

00:08:20Well, I was going to go there a little bit earlier. I think she does have a history of

00:08:27not having her voice heard in her family growing up, right? You would agree with that?

00:08:33Well, yeah, I was much more introverted, and all of them were just

00:08:36super, wanted to do things all the time, go places all the time.

00:08:42Okay, so you as the husband know that your wife has an issue with her voice not being heard?

00:08:47Yes, and I need to factor that in.

00:08:50Well, how long have you guys been together?

00:08:54Yeah.

00:08:56And over that eight-year period, my friend,

00:08:59when did you find out that your wife had a history of not being listened to?

00:09:05When was that, like year two, three? What would you say?

00:09:11Yeah, maybe year, I don't know.

00:09:12It was a couple of years in, but not a lot.

00:09:15So you guys were together for a couple of years before you found out about basic childhood stuff?

00:09:22You've been listening to my show for eight years.

00:09:25How could you miss the childhood stuff?

00:09:27We've learned a lot.

00:09:29We did talk about a lot of childhood stuff, but I don't think I realized the voice not being heard

00:09:35saying as much at that point in time.

00:09:39Sorry, when did you notice conflict over the wife's voice not being heard?

00:09:44Fairly early, I guess, but I don't think we realized that that was why.

00:09:49We've learned a lot about both of our childhoods and how that's been

00:09:55factoring into our marriage over the past two years, maybe.

00:10:00Yeah, because it's a funny thing, and it's complicated.

00:10:04So, I mean, I can understand, I'm sort of joking with this error, right?

00:10:07But I can understand why it's a challenge, right?

00:10:09So we want to be sensitive to our partner's deficiencies,

00:10:14like what happened to them in childhood, the sort of old pain and old wounds.

00:10:18We want to be sensitive to that stuff, but at the same time,

00:10:21we don't want to be dictated to and dominated by it.

00:10:26And that's a tightrope.

00:10:28That is a big challenge, and there's no obvious answer.

00:10:32It's sort of like a gut instinct, because if it's like, well, you know,

00:10:36my wife was never listened to, so I've always got to listen to her and accommodate her,

00:10:40then that goes from a deficiency of power as a child to an excess of power as a partner.

00:10:46And so it is a challenging thing to navigate or to balance, if that makes sense.

00:10:54Yeah, and I think with the baby factory, as we were discussing,

00:11:01I think I've just felt most of our marriage has just been trying to serve her,

00:11:08because she needs it, rightly so, it should be.

00:11:11But then I feel selfish at times, like wanting to get my way, I guess.

00:11:17Serve her, because of the pregnancies?

00:11:21Yeah, and like help her.

00:11:24I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here.

00:11:26Whose sperm is it?

00:11:30Did she trip on the water, or did she get in a swimming pool?

00:11:36So what do you mean, help her?

00:11:37You guys have chosen to make these babies together.

00:11:40You're one flesh, you can't help your wife.

00:11:42Yes.

00:11:44Right?

00:11:45Right, it's helping me, yes.

00:11:46Well, you're helping the family, you're helping the plan that you both have signed up for,

00:11:50which is to have a lot of kids, right?

00:11:53Yes, yes, we both want that, yes.

00:11:55Okay, so what do you mean by help her?

00:11:58It seems like there's a distance, like you feel like

00:12:01somehow you're a servant to a decision that you both made?

00:12:04Yeah, I think that's how I spent the first, I don't know how many years of our marriage,

00:12:10I think, and slowly, partially, a little bit getting over that, maybe, but yeah.

00:12:21Were you both on board with this many kids?

00:12:24Yes.

00:12:25Not as quickly as they came, maybe we didn't realize how quickly they would come.

00:12:34Sorry, you didn't realize how quickly women could get pregnant.

00:12:41Did I hear something about an Irish background there?

00:12:45You can't share a cup of coffee with Irish women.

00:12:49Yeah.

00:12:50I didn't know about that, actually.

00:12:53The reason why so many people had to flee when the price of potatoes went up five pennies.

00:12:57Anyway, okay, so.

00:13:01And the other piece of it is, I got chronically ill the week before our wedding,

00:13:07and it lasted the first two years of our marriage.

00:13:11Oh gosh, what happened?

00:13:16We didn't actually know what it was until a year and a half into it.

00:13:24It turned out to be chronic mono or Epstein-Barr virus.

00:13:28And it was seven doctors before they could figure out what in the world was wrong with me.

00:13:32And they kept just telling me, oh, it's just because you're newly married,

00:13:35or because you moved, or because you just had a child.

00:13:38Yeah, heaven forbid you go to socialist doctors with anything complicated,

00:13:42they don't want to have anything to do with you.

00:13:44Strep throat, easy antibiotics, they're good.

00:13:47But anything like, I have an odd pain in my stomach, they're just like, yeah, it's anxiety,

00:13:52here's some pills, go for it.

00:13:53They're just like, yeah, it's anxiety, here's some pills, go away.

00:13:59So what was the solution to this Epstein-Barr?

00:14:05Well, they told me that there was really nothing they could do about it, because it was viral,

00:14:09and antivirals don't often work on this specific one when it's chronic.

00:14:15So I had a friend who told me all about a specific natural modality to try.

00:14:23So I went full force into that, and it worked.

00:14:26And what is the natural modality?

00:14:28High-dose vitamin C.

00:14:30Wow.

00:14:31I was literally buying it by the pound.

00:14:34It was a lot.

00:14:36Wow.

00:14:36But it worked.

00:14:37Yeah, most people can take like 10 to 15 grams before you get very strongly.

00:14:43I was taking 100 grams at a time.

00:14:48Holy crap.

00:14:50You're like mainlining an orange tree grove.

00:14:54And what were the symptoms before?

00:14:56Do you know how you got it?

00:14:57And what were the symptoms before, and how quickly did they lift?

00:15:02It like hit me the week before our wedding.

00:15:05It was like that whole week, I was just like, what is wrong with me?

00:15:08I just felt so exhausted and dragging.

00:15:12Um, and then it just, yeah, it kind of hit all at once.

00:15:17Just suddenly I woke up and I was exhausted all the time and just slept.

00:15:22Um, that's, we got married in like the spring.

00:15:25And then that summer I actually had to quit my job because I couldn't do it.

00:15:30I was too tired.

00:15:31And my husband would come home from work and he'd be like, so what'd you do today?

00:15:34And I'm like, I was too tired to go on my phone.

00:15:36So I just laid here and stared at the ceiling.

00:15:39Wow.

00:15:40Now, I'm not an expert on any of this, so forgive me for my lack of knowledge.

00:15:47Is it something that they described to you as like, this matches this cluster of symptoms?

00:15:55Or is it that they can actually see the viruses squiggling around in a microscope or something?

00:16:01Um, I eventually, the seventh doctor I went to

00:16:04did a titer test for all sorts of viruses and other things.

00:16:10And my Epstein-Barr virus titers were like through the roots.

00:16:15Okay.

00:16:16It said anything over like 30 was positive for the virus and mine was over 800.

00:16:21Okay.

00:16:22Okay.

00:16:22Which is why you went on the very high dose vitamin C.

00:16:25Okay.

00:16:26Yes.

00:16:26And that was a couple of years?

00:16:29Yeah, that was the first two years of our marriage.

00:16:31I didn't know what was wrong with me until a year and a half into it.

00:16:35And then once I knew what it was and I could start like

00:16:38dealing with it, knowing what I was fighting, it was like six more months.

00:16:43Until you get back to normal?

00:16:45Yes.

00:16:46Wow.

00:16:46We had one kid through that and then she was pregnant with a second,

00:16:48then I guess as you were recovering.

00:16:50So it probably wore her immune system down too, I would imagine.

00:16:55Sorry, she's chronically viral infected and you had two kids?

00:17:02Right, I think?

00:17:03Yes, it was stupid.

00:17:06Well, no, I mean, you're obviously very intelligent people.

00:17:09So I don't, I'm not sure I quite follow the logic here.

00:17:16You know, I'm not criticizing you for having kids.

00:17:18I think that's wonderful.

00:17:19I'm just, you know, if she can't get out of bed and she doesn't know what's wrong,

00:17:24like you don't know what's wrong with you and you don't know if there's going to be

00:17:27cure and all the doctors are saying whatever it's in your head or whatever they're saying.

00:17:30How does that work with having a kid before the health issue is resolved?

00:17:34Or two, really?

00:17:36It didn't work very well, but we made it, kind of.

00:17:42Like I was able to...

00:17:44No, but what if you hadn't found a cure, right?

00:17:49I mean, you're kind of locked out with doctor number seven, right?

00:17:54Yeah, yeah.

00:17:55So I'm trying to sort of follow the reasoning here.

00:17:59I know this sounds all kinds of critical.

00:18:01I don't mean it that way.

00:18:02I'm a little surprised.

00:18:03I think it was partly religious.

00:18:06Okay.

00:18:07Where neither of us were entirely comfortable with like hormonal birth control.

00:18:11Right.

00:18:13But then due to...

00:18:15I'm pretty sure that he had like a botched circumcision or something when he was a baby.

00:18:21So barrier, like standard condoms, like don't work.

00:18:26And so we were doing like the diaphragm and that's not a hundred percent effective.

00:18:36So that's how that happened.

00:18:39Okay, sorry, go ahead.

00:18:41We would take measures, but they would reduce probabilities.

00:18:44But we found out that our thing by 90% is not 100%.

00:18:50And ours always seemed to be like the 1% chance.

00:18:52The math checks out, yeah, the math checks out.

00:18:56Yeah.

00:18:57We would also like abstain on days to almost ovulation and that didn't seem to matter either.

00:19:02Right, right.

00:19:03Get the perma eggs, right.

00:19:05Okay.

00:19:06It appears so.

00:19:07Right.

00:19:08Well, I mean, obviously it's thrilling to have that many kids and I envy that.

00:19:12So good for you.

00:19:14So when you first met, what were the virtues or values that drew you to each other?

00:19:23We both lived in or near D.C.

00:19:30The city that we lived near just didn't have a lot of Christians and conservative Christians.

00:19:38Yeah, you could say that.

00:19:39So we were trying to find like-minded believers and just not able to find that.

00:19:49So we actually found each other on a very unique religious dating site.

00:19:57Yeah, and he was from the state next to mine.

00:20:01Okay.

00:20:01And then as we began getting to know each other, we realized we actually share

00:20:06a lot in common, belief-wise.

00:20:08Of course, we enjoyed each other's company.

00:20:11Yeah.

00:20:11Both like intellectual conversations, all that stuff.

00:20:14Mm-hmm.

00:20:16I would joke in the past that he was the only guy in the entire state that

00:20:21fit my religious requirements.

00:20:24Right, okay.

00:20:26Mine, too, for the most part, because I would most have to compromise probably on something.

00:20:31I wasn't able to find someone that actually believed all the things.

00:20:34Yeah.

00:20:35Okay, got it, got it.

00:20:37And your cultural backgrounds, are they similar?

00:20:41Kind of, but not really.

00:20:44Ambiguous, I like it.

00:20:46We're both.

00:20:48We both grew up conservative Christian, but in very different ways.

00:20:55Go on.

00:20:59Well, he comes from Dutch ancestry, and they're very rules-oriented,

00:21:08and you do things because that's how you do them.

00:21:11Or tradition, or yeah.

00:21:13Yeah.

00:21:14Just don't question.

00:21:15You went to the same church your entire childhood, super stability kind of thing.

00:21:24And then my family was not that way, but also conservative Christian in a lot of ways.

00:21:34But they hopped from church to church all the time because they were looking for

00:21:40something more pure, I guess.

00:21:44And so, yeah, there wasn't much stability there.

00:21:47And they had really strong beliefs, but I just, I feel like I'm in suit.

00:21:54I don't know.

00:21:55Well, yeah, I think different style.

00:21:59Yeah.

00:22:02My family was a lot more reserved.

00:22:03Hers was a lot more just Irish, Italian, right?

00:22:06Boisterous and speak your mind a little bit as well.

00:22:11Yeah.

00:22:14Two Catholic bastions of fertility.

00:22:17Got it.

00:22:17Okay.

00:22:18Just checking.

00:22:19Just checking.

00:22:20All right.

00:22:21That was just dad's side.

00:22:23The other side was Scandinavian.

00:22:26Okay.

00:22:29But they were all-

00:22:29Drunken, hot-blooded, and emotionally distant.

00:22:31Okay.

00:22:31Got it.

00:22:33All right.

00:22:34Actually describes it quite well.

00:22:36Yeah.

00:22:36The stereotypes exist for a reason.

00:22:38I'm not saying you judge everyone that way, but it's not an inaccurate after when you zoom out,

00:22:43right?

00:22:44The beliefs, very similar growing up even, but styles, behaviors-

00:22:51And reasons.

00:22:52Reasoning.

00:22:53Had a lot of reasons for why they would do things.

00:22:56Right.

00:22:58That's the way you did it.

00:22:59That's the way we were taught.

00:23:00It makes sense to me.

00:23:01Don't question that kind of thing.

00:23:03Right.

00:23:03A conservatism to the point of almost rigidity, right?

00:23:07Yes.

00:23:07Right.

00:23:08Okay.

00:23:09And then mine was, if that rule doesn't make sense, why in the world would we follow it?

00:23:14Right.

00:23:15Okay.

00:23:15Now, of course, all couples have their disagreements, and I'm sure that it started

00:23:19at some point where you had disagreements.

00:23:22So, had you discussed much, I guess, before or after marriage, how you were going to resolve

00:23:28disagreements?

00:23:29What was going to be the process or the procedure to resolve disagreements?

00:23:35No.

00:23:36We were committed, like, divorce was not an option, but I don't think we ever discussed,

00:23:40like, right?

00:23:42Or am I missing something?

00:23:43I don't think so.

00:23:47I think we talked about what do we do if we disagree, and then it was like, well, we'll

00:23:50try to come to an agreement together, and then if we can't, then I just go with whatever

00:23:56he decides.

00:23:59Okay.

00:24:00So, can you remember an early disagreement where you had to try and bring that rather

00:24:05abstract theory into practical use?

00:24:09Yeah.

00:24:10So, the first one had to do with my sister, right?

00:24:12I think that'd be the first.

00:24:13Yeah.

00:24:15So, my younger sister and I were very close growing up, and then through college, and

00:24:25then when, and learning since then, I guess, I think I served as kind of like a substitute.

00:24:34We had a father, but he wasn't, he was too wishy-washy to provide the emotional support

00:24:40for her, is that a good way of describing it?

00:24:43But so, I think I served, I realize now that I served as like a substitute father for her,

00:24:49not realizing at the time, and provide a lot of emotional support for her, I think.

00:24:54So, then when she met, sorry, when she met my wife, then I think there was some,

00:25:08jealousy is the right word, but like, she felt threatened.

00:25:14I'm sorry, what's the age difference between you and your sister?

00:25:19One and a half years, one and nine months.

00:25:21That's a narrow age gap to be a father figure.

00:25:27Yeah.

00:25:30Okay, that's, I just bookmarked that in my brain, but sorry, so you felt that when you

00:25:34met your wife, your sister got jealous?

00:25:38Yeah, and like, threatened almost that I was taking her, yeah, or like, I was then not

00:25:48able to be there for her when she was going through her own hard, very hard times,

00:25:53hard relationships and such.

00:25:55And how old were you when you met your wife?

00:25:5926.

00:26:01Okay, so she was like 24 and change or something like that, right?

00:26:04Yep, yep.

00:26:05So, you had tried to raise her, and because you were also a kid, you hadn't done a super

00:26:12great job, right?

00:26:13Because she wasn't independent in her mid-twenties.

00:26:17Yeah.

00:26:18Now, I mean, obviously, you're a kid, right?

00:26:19So, kids can't raise kids, right?

00:26:22Otherwise, we wouldn't have parents, right?

00:26:23So...

00:26:24Yep.

00:26:25So, was she aware that your pretend fatherhood or your pseudo-fatherhood hadn't been what

00:26:33she needed?

00:26:33Did she know that?

00:26:34Did she get any therapy or do self-work and say, okay, well, I need to figure out what

00:26:38I was missing that, obviously, my brother tried to provide, but couldn't do a great

00:26:41job because he's a kid.

00:26:42So, I need to backfill that somehow?

00:26:45No.

00:26:46I don't know if becoming a therapist counts.

00:26:49Yeah, she's a therapist social worker now.

00:26:52Really?

00:26:54Okay.

00:26:55But she wasn't, I guess, back then, right?

00:26:58Oh, yeah, she was.

00:27:00And what kind of relationship issues was she dealing with?

00:27:04Had a 10-year relationship with a guy, was waiting for her, for him to commit, essentially,

00:27:14and it never happened.

00:27:22Oh, okay, sorry.

00:27:23I thought the story was going to go a little longer than that.

00:27:25All right.

00:27:26Okay.

00:27:26So, he never committed, and she was kind of tortured by that?

00:27:30Yeah.

00:27:31And yet, felt the need to continue.

00:27:35Well, that's a fallacy of sunk costs, right?

00:27:38It's tough to walk if you wait for the bus for three days, right?

00:27:42So, okay.

00:27:42Yeah.

00:27:44While we were dating, she decided to move multiple states away to where he was, to try

00:27:53to salvage it.

00:27:54What advice did she get from family and friends regarding this guy?

00:28:00Yeah, so, we liked him the first year, but then, after that, then, myself and my entire

00:28:09family did not like him, and gave that feedback to her concerns, I guess, with, you know,

00:28:18various things, but...

00:28:20So, basically, you said, he's not the guy, it's not going to work, you're wasting your

00:28:23time, and she didn't listen?

00:28:26Correct.

00:28:26Okay.

00:28:27And this kind of went on, yeah, and then, she didn't want to hear it anymore, so then

00:28:31we kind of just stopped giving that feedback.

00:28:34And what was it that finally blew this scheme apart?

00:28:40I don't know.

00:28:41I don't know.

00:28:42I don't know.

00:28:43I don't know.

00:28:44I don't know.

00:28:45I don't know.

00:28:46I don't know.

00:28:48Blew the scheme, or what do you mean?

00:28:49Like, broke up?

00:28:50Sorry, I'm being a bit abstract there.

00:28:51Sorry, go ahead.

00:28:54Like, what ended there?

00:28:56Oh.

00:28:57Oh, well, she found out that he got engaged to someone else, randomly.

00:29:04What?

00:29:0610 years in.

00:29:08What have I heard?

00:29:09He met some girl, and then, three months later, they were engaged, and then, they were married.

00:29:15Well...

00:29:15After 10 years, with her, kind of concurrently.

00:29:18Yeah.

00:29:19I mean, I've been down that road.

00:29:21I was in a relationship for a good chunk of my 20s.

00:29:25But, you know, I broke up.

00:29:26I did some time later.

00:29:27I met my wife, and we got married within 11 months.

00:29:31Okay.

00:29:31So, I get that.

00:29:32So, how did she handle this breakup?

00:29:40Not well.

00:29:41It was just an emotional wreck.

00:29:48And so, this was the first, yeah, roughly first year of...

00:29:52Well, the salvaging attempt was the first date.

00:29:56We were dating while we were dating, and then, our first year of marriage.

00:30:00And then, it was like, the second year, I think, is when it had blown up.

00:30:04Yeah.

00:30:04So, then, there would be frequent calls, semi-frequent calls.

00:30:08I don't know how frequent.

00:30:09But, where she was distressed, of course.

00:30:13And then, I would try to be there for her.

00:30:15But then, it began to...

00:30:17That was also the same time that my wife was going through her mono, and having...

00:30:22And pregnancy, and you're trying to adjust to marriage, and illness, and babies.

00:30:26And yeah, yeah, that's a lot.

00:30:28Yeah, all this stuff.

00:30:29So, you can see, kind of, how both sides began to feel.

00:30:34So, my sister thought my wife should be more caring, and care about her problem.

00:30:39Not realizing, and appreciating the fact that we are now husband-wife, and that takes precedent.

00:30:47And then, her illness, and all that stuff, too.

00:30:49But then, I think my wife then started to feel like I was...

00:30:54My sister was coming in between us, and I felt caught in the middle.

00:30:58Sorry, but she was, wasn't she?

00:31:00I mean, she was taking a lot of time, energy, and resources from you,

00:31:03when you're trying to adjust to a new wife, a new kid, an illness,

00:31:07that you don't even know when it's going to end, or if, right?

00:31:10Yep.

00:31:10So, I did not handle that well the first couple years, because,

00:31:14yeah, partially due to the closeness with my sister.

00:31:17It was hard to see her go through what she was going through.

00:31:19Then, it was also hard to see my wife.

00:31:22Sorry, I'm still trying to understand the closeness with your sister.

00:31:25It sounds a little claustrophobic to me.

00:31:27I don't know.

00:31:27That's not close.

00:31:29That's, kind of, codependent, right?

00:31:30Which is...

00:31:31Yeah.

00:31:33Because I'm trying to figure out the whole...

00:31:36When did the family first say,

00:31:38this is not the guy for you, probably not a good idea?

00:31:44I think it was after either six months or a year.

00:31:48Okay.

00:31:48So, basically, she went on for almost a decade, nine years or nine years plus,

00:31:53not listening to her family saying,

00:31:55I got this, you're all wrong, I'm right, he is the guy for me.

00:32:00Yeah.

00:32:01So, I'm trying to figure out why you'd have

00:32:04a shred of sympathy for somebody who ignored your advice, did the wrong thing,

00:32:10kind of insulted you by saying you were totally wrong,

00:32:13and maybe you just don't want her to be happy or something like that,

00:32:16and then waits a decade of her life.

00:32:20Yeah.

00:32:20I mean, this is literally like saying,

00:32:23you know, you really shouldn't be part of that criminal gang.

00:32:25Oh, no, that criminal gang is really, really bad.

00:32:27No, you're wrong, man.

00:32:28It's criminal.

00:32:28It's not a criminal gang.

00:32:29And then, they go to jail for five years.

00:32:32For five years, they come out, and then they're crying about how you got to help them.

00:32:37Yeah.

00:32:39So, that's a dynamic that's interesting.

00:32:41And I think, I know that this sounds a bit like we're off the beaten track, but

00:32:45I think this fits into Taco Bell.

00:32:48I know this sounds odd, but I think it does.

00:32:51Yeah.

00:32:51So, your sister calls up, and she's like, uh-huh-huh, he broke up with me,

00:33:00he's getting married to someone else, right?

00:33:03And what was your response or reaction to all of this?

00:33:10I think, I'm trying to remember now, to feel bad.

00:33:15It was a huge amount of sympathy, because otherwise, you wouldn't have kept calling,

00:33:19right?

00:33:20Yeah, yep.

00:33:21And I wanted to say, you always want to say, I told you so, right?

00:33:26But I didn't say that.

00:33:28And sorry, why not?

00:33:30Because you did.

00:33:33Did what?

00:33:34Well, you did tell her so, for nine plus years.

00:33:37Oh, yes, yes.

00:33:39So, what's wrong with saying, I told you so?

00:33:41I mean, because I know people have this weird reaction of, oh, I don't want to just say,

00:33:44I told you so, and it's like, well, why not?

00:33:46It's important, because you've got to remind the person that you had credibility, and you

00:33:50were right.

00:33:50Otherwise, they just won't listen next time.

00:33:53I finally, I told her that, I think it was, I forget how long after, six months, I don't

00:34:03know, sometime after, within the first year, and I could barely get the words out of my

00:34:08mouth, and she stopped me and said, I know, I know, don't say.

00:34:14And that's just kind of the dynamic, I guess.

00:34:16And from there, our relationship kind of, I don't know, lessened.

00:34:26Deteriorated, right?

00:34:28Yeah.

00:34:29Of course it did.

00:34:32And do you know why?

00:34:36And it should have happened much sooner, to your point.

00:34:38No.

00:34:39Why did your relationship with your sister deteriorate after the breakup?

00:34:43Because I tried to put, tried to speak truth, like, be honest, and then she didn't want

00:34:52to hear it.

00:34:55That's a nice way of saying you lied.

00:34:59Right?

00:35:00You lied.

00:35:00You had thoughts and feelings about this.

00:35:03I assume some exasperation, some impatience, some, like, and she probably blamed him,

00:35:07didn't she?

00:35:11Yeah.

00:35:11Well, that's retarded.

00:35:13I mean, it's understandable.

00:35:14People do that all the time.

00:35:16But it's wrong.

00:35:17She chose to be in the relationship.

00:35:19She chose to ignore the advice of the people who cared about her the most.

00:35:23I mean, you may have heard this little Bible saying, you reap what you sow, right?

00:35:27Yeah.

00:35:28So, I'm sure you weren't just like, oh, it's just tragic how this complete terrible thing

00:35:36happened out of nowhere.

00:35:37There must have been some impatience.

00:35:44I think I was always known, and I used to have endless patience, too much, maybe.

00:35:52No, you didn't have endless patience.

00:35:54You lied.

00:35:55Come on.

00:35:56Thou shalt not bear false witness.

00:35:57What does that mean?

00:35:58That means in matters that are important, I mean, in general, we should tell the truth,

00:36:01but certainly in matters that are important for a relationship, we should tell the truth.

00:36:05Certainly in matters that are important for a person's moral development, we should tell

00:36:08the truth, right?

00:36:11Yes.

00:36:13So, you had a moral lesson to impart to your sister, right?

00:36:18Yes.

00:36:19And you didn't, because she said, no, no, no, don't tell me.

00:36:23I mean, there's no asterisk on that commandment, thou shalt not bear false witness, unless

00:36:28it's your sister and she doesn't want you to.

00:36:30What did you want to say to your sister if she had listened and you could speak without

00:36:39blowback or repercussions?

00:36:40What did you want to say to your sister?

00:36:44That I told her so, and I wish she would have listened.

00:36:52Okay, that's like 0.01% of what you want to say to your sister about this 10-year disaster.

00:36:59What else?

00:37:12Maybe we can turn to your wife.

00:37:14She might have a few words about this.

00:37:15Hmm, um, I just…

00:37:28Because it cost you, right?

00:37:29It cost you that she's having these meltdowns while you're pregnant and you guys are trying

00:37:33to navigate.

00:37:34I mean, was this sister, was she aware that she was imposing on a new marriage where there

00:37:40were babies and sickness?

00:37:45Somewhat, but she just didn't care.

00:37:49Right.

00:37:50So she's selfish.

00:37:52Yeah, for sure.

00:37:53Okay, well, that's why he didn't marry her.

00:37:59Probably true.

00:38:01So she caused the not marrying, and then she's crying victim?

00:38:09She chose the guy.

00:38:10Okay, has anyone ever talked to her about her selfishness?

00:38:16And look, I'm not saying all she is is selfish.

00:38:18I'm just saying in this particular area.

00:38:25I mean, did you ever at any point over the, what, year, you got a sick wife, you've got

00:38:29a pregnant wife, you're trying to navigate married life, and it's terrifying to have

00:38:32that kind of undiagnosed medical ailment, right?

00:38:36That's terrifying because you don't know what the heck is going on.

00:38:39You don't know how on earth it might be solved or whether.

00:38:43And at some point, don't you say to your sister, hello, there's somebody else in the

00:38:48world here called me.

00:38:50How about you ask me about how I'm doing?

00:38:52You know, it doesn't have to be all the time, but once in a while might be a good start.

00:38:57And maybe this is why the guy didn't want to marry you because you're kind of self-absorbed

00:39:01and selfish.

00:39:02It's all I, Mimi, I.

00:39:04You don't ask me anything about how my life is going.

00:39:07That was a, yeah, I had some calls with her where she was, she just kept going on and

00:39:16on, and I stopped her at some point, just, I can't do this anymore.

00:39:23Okay, but that is saying that it's your issue or problem to some degree, rather than you're

00:39:29kind of a black hole of attention that never gets filled and it's draining me dry, you

00:39:32vampire.

00:39:33Sorry.

00:39:33I'm not saying you'd say it like that, but something like that, right?

00:39:37Yeah, I get your point, yeah.

00:39:38So why are you withholding moral correction from your sister?

00:39:41You say you're close, obviously you care about her, you love her.

00:39:44Why are you withholding honesty and moral correction from her?

00:39:47We've got to look out for each other, right?

00:39:49We all have our blind spots.

00:39:52Yeah.

00:39:53Because I mean, I've, I mean, it's not my sister, so I'm not in the same situation,

00:39:56but I've certainly had friends who absolutely are dating the wrong girl.

00:39:59They're absolutely dating the wrong girl.

00:40:01Absolutely are dating the wrong girl.

00:40:02They're absolutely dating the wrong girl.

00:40:04I say my case, and if they, and I say, listen, obviously I can't tell you what to do.

00:40:09Here's the red flags I see, and they go on like a Chinese communist parade.

00:40:12So here are all the red flags I see.

00:40:14You are obviously perfectly free to do whatever you want, date whoever you want.

00:40:17I'm just telling you, when it ends, I don't want to hear a thing.

00:40:23It will end, and it'll end badly.

00:40:25I know that.

00:40:26I don't, I'm, no, like, I, the price of you not listening to my good advice,

00:40:32is I don't want to hear about it when it ends.

00:40:33Now, if I'm totally wrong, which I could be,

00:40:36then I will be the first one to chip in for your wedding,

00:40:38and I'll give you a great speech, and I'll apologize publicly for doubting it.

00:40:41That'll be my punishment, I suppose, being publicly admitting I was wrong.

00:40:45But if it ends, no sympathy.

00:40:51Yeah.

00:40:52I think having tried to do that one time to her six months in,

00:40:56or whatever it was in a year, up to a year,

00:40:59and then her not, and continuing to not listen,

00:41:05I think I just lost the will to be doing that more.

00:41:12That's not very Christian of you, my friend.

00:41:15Because, you know, I'm not going to lecture you guys on Christianity,

00:41:19the last thing you'd want from me, but I will say that,

00:41:22whether it's Christianity or philosophy,

00:41:25withholding moral correction from those we love is an act of sabotage,

00:41:29and it's actually quite selfish on your part.

00:41:32Because y'all should have had a significant intervention,

00:41:35I have no idea how this crap lasted for a decade

00:41:39with a family around her who claims to care about her.

00:41:42Why on earth didn't somebody sit down with the two of them and say,

00:41:46okay, it's been 18 months, or 16 months, or 14 months, or wherever,

00:41:50where is this going, what is happening?

00:41:52This woman needs her 20s, if she wants to have kids,

00:41:55she can't just waste all of these years.

00:41:58What is happening, what is going on?

00:42:00I mean, I don't quite understand the family structure here,

00:42:03where this woman, through whatever weird addiction she's got,

00:42:08loses a decade of her most precious fertile years.

00:42:11I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble understanding

00:42:13why the family wouldn't do something about this.

00:42:17Yeah, I think, so my dad was kind of non-existent with the relationship,

00:42:22which feeds a little bit why I think I...

00:42:24But you know that!

00:42:25You told me that at the very beginning,

00:42:27that's why you had to parent your sister, so why didn't you?

00:42:30Well, I don't think I fully realized what I was...

00:42:34I knew I had a close relationship with her, or I thought I did, I should say,

00:42:39but I didn't realize what the relationship was at the time.

00:42:42It was only afterwards, I think, that I realized...

00:42:45Sorry, which relationship?

00:42:46It was because...

00:42:47Your sister?

00:42:48Yeah, it'd be like semi-fathering, if you want to call it that.

00:42:54Okay, that's fine, but in your 20s,

00:42:56you knew that she was wasting year after year with this guy, so why did that go on?

00:43:03There were multiple times where I tried to tell her...

00:43:07No, him, him.

00:43:09There's no point telling her, she's the addict, right?

00:43:12Yeah.

00:43:13So, you sit down with him, say, listen, man-to-man,

00:43:15come on, like, stop it.

00:43:17Like, marry her or leave.

00:43:21Never saw much of him.

00:43:22That was part of the problem, too.

00:43:25In different states for 9 out of 10 years, but...

00:43:29Oh, no, no, no, no, no, please, don't do that.

00:43:33Don't embarrass us all by saying there was a distance problem

00:43:36when you and I are talking across a country

00:43:39and talking about some serious and deep things.

00:43:43It's not...

00:43:44And also, you would fly out if you care about her, right?

00:43:50Yeah, I mean, yeah.

00:43:53Because she was making terrible decisions for 10 years.

00:43:57Now, how many daughters do you have?

00:44:01Two.

00:44:01Okay, so you know why I'm talking to you about this, right?

00:44:03It's not much to do with your sister, because that's all in the past.

00:44:08Yeah.

00:44:08You're a father.

00:44:10Now, and as a father to a daughter myself, you have to watch out for bad guys.

00:44:18And this guy was a bad guy.

00:44:20You don't burn up 10 years of a woman's young life

00:44:23and then go marry someone else right away.

00:44:24Like, that's just being a total asterisk, question mark, hashtag asterisk guy, right?

00:44:32Yeah.

00:44:32So how did he get away with it?

00:44:34He only did it because he knew the family wasn't going to lift a finger

00:44:38and sort it out.

00:44:40Yeah.

00:44:43And I've learned...

00:44:45So my wife's father, my father-in-law, took a much more active approach to our

00:44:52dating than my dad did to his daughter.

00:44:56You know, I keep trying to give you some responsibility, and who do you turn to?

00:44:59This is the third time now.

00:45:04Who do you turn to?

00:45:05Whenever I say, right, you or the family as a whole, right, there's lots of people

00:45:09in the family, lots of males, aunts, uncles, brothers, whoever, right?

00:45:12Lots of males.

00:45:12Who do you turn to?

00:45:16Who do you hold up as a human shield?

00:45:22Matt.

00:45:23I'm sorry?

00:45:25Not sure what you're saying.

00:45:26Well, I keep saying, right, why didn't you do this?

00:45:29And you say, well, my father was passive.

00:45:30And I say, well, why did the family deal with this?

00:45:34And you say, well, my father didn't take, like, I'm not talking about your dad.

00:45:37And you already know this about your dad, that he's passive.

00:45:39So you can't blame passivity on your dad, who you already know is passive,

00:45:42because that's a bad thing, and you've already identified it.

00:45:51If you know your dad's passive, then you know you have to be more active, right?

00:45:57Yeah.

00:45:59So you can't blame your passivity on your dad, when the first thing you told me about

00:46:03your dad was that he was passive and absent, and you had to raise your sister.

00:46:08So you already know that about your dad.

00:46:13Yeah, I was.

00:46:14I can't say there's no lifeguard, but I expect the lifeguard to save the drowning kid.

00:46:22I can't say, well, there's no lifeguard at the beach, but I didn't go save the kid, because,

00:46:26hey, there's no lifeguard at the beach.

00:46:28It's like, well, if you know there's no lifeguard at the beach,

00:46:29you didn't go in and save the kid?

00:46:30So if your dad's passive, that means it's up to you.

00:46:36Yeah.

00:46:37Or the other males, right?

00:46:39I don't know if you're the oldest.

00:46:40I don't know where you are in the birth order.

00:46:41But all the other males, how many brothers does she have?

00:46:45Just me.

00:46:46Just you.

00:46:46Well, one other one.

00:46:47He's much younger, and yeah.

00:46:51I've learned, what I was trying to say is, I've learned since then, but I should have known then.

00:46:59But I should have known then.

00:47:03My eyes have been opened, what I should have done.

00:47:07And so, when did you get that revelation?

00:47:13Well, like I was saying, my father-in-law took a much more active approach to our relationship.

00:47:20And that was the first time I've seen that.

00:47:23And I want to model somewhat of that to my daughters.

00:47:31Right.

00:47:32Is your relationship, what's your relationship like with your sister now?

00:47:41Mostly surface level.

00:47:45And have you ever apologized to her?

00:47:53Um, I don't think so, no.

00:47:57I mean, do you regret not being more...

00:48:00Yeah.

00:48:01...or even remotely firm or decisive with regards to her losing a decade of her life?

00:48:07Yeah.

00:48:08Because you all just let it happen, right?

00:48:09Now, again, she's an adult, I get all of that.

00:48:11But, you know, we all have our weaknesses.

00:48:13And clearly, she was addicted to this guy in some manner.

00:48:15And now, do you know why you didn't do it?

00:48:18And saying that your father is passive doesn't answer anything.

00:48:21Because you saw your father's passivity.

00:48:23You already backfilled it by trying to half-raise your sister.

00:48:26So you already know about the passivity.

00:48:27So why didn't the family act to save her from herself?

00:48:44It's probably fear of losing the relationship, maybe, with her.

00:48:49Right, because she's volatile.

00:48:51And if you try to stand up, like if you went to talk to this guy,

00:48:54and he broke up with her, she'd blow up at you, right?

00:48:57Yeah.

00:48:57Okay.

00:48:59So?

00:49:02I mean, you know, there's a guy who got literally nailed to a cross to do the right thing.

00:49:06Nobody's asking you to do that.

00:49:07Just, you know, endure your sister's ill temper until her head clears, right?

00:49:14Yeah.

00:49:15So, in the family, that level of love where you can put up with a negative in order to

00:49:24achieve a positive, right?

00:49:28Like, you know this old meme, it's sort of between men and women, right?

00:49:31There's a meme which is like, the woman who's fat says to her friends,

00:49:35Am I fat?

00:49:36No, you're beautiful, blah, blah, blah, right?

00:49:37And the guy says to his friends, Am I fat?

00:49:39And the guys are like, Hey man, I know five fat guys, and you're four of them.

00:49:45Right?

00:49:45Which is, you know, guys could be blunt with each other and say

00:49:50the things that need to be said.

00:49:53And for a lot of women, a lot of sort of female interactions, it tends to be a little bit

00:49:59more claustrophobic.

00:49:59Like, you see all this positivity stuff, and it doesn't matter how you look, and it's like,

00:50:03well, no, it does.

00:50:04It's kind of like a weird kind of sabotage thing that happens.

00:50:07So, in the family, is there not that dedication to say and do the right thing?

00:50:14And if people are upset, you know, you can sympathize, but that doesn't stop you.

00:50:20No, that was not present, really.

00:50:24Right.

00:50:26So, doesn't this mean that it's kind of tough for you to be a kind of leader in your current

00:50:34family?

00:50:35Because the leader has to make tough decisions, and a leader has to be blunt and honest.

00:50:42And not only if it upsets people, but especially when it upsets people.

00:50:48I mean, I say this as a guy who has occasionally upset a few people in the world by being blunt

00:50:52and honest.

00:50:53So, maybe you guys do.

00:50:55But that's what it takes to be a leader, doesn't it?

00:51:00Yeah.

00:51:00And certainly, that's what it takes for your wife to trust you.

00:51:07Yeah.

00:51:11So, what's the barrier to that leadership, or if we don't want to say leadership, to that

00:51:20honesty and directness?

00:51:24And I say this with no criticism.

00:51:25You know, we all struggle with it, so I'm not trying to be any kind of superior here,

00:51:29but I'm just genuinely curious.

00:51:31In your case, because we all have our own different blocks, but in your case, what is

00:51:34the block to that kind of honesty and directness?

00:51:39Probably fear of losing relationships, whatever relationship it might be.

00:51:44And I think, I don't know.

00:51:48And where does that come from?

00:51:50It can't come from your sister, because you're older, right?

00:51:54And it has to come from some other template.

00:51:58Is that why your father's so cucked?

00:51:59Is that why he's so flaccid?

00:52:01Because he's afraid of your mom dumping him, or something like that?

00:52:08He's not been able to...

00:52:14They have their marriage issues, and she won't listen to that.

00:52:24If you could do me a favor, you have this...

00:52:26They have their...

00:52:29It's like this staccato thing, and it sounds like you're wrestling with some demon in your

00:52:33throat, or something like that.

00:52:34I feel like there's a huge amount of self-censorship going on, which just makes the conversation

00:52:38kind of slow and a little spacey.

00:52:40So, if you could just try and push through that, and just communicate directly, that

00:52:43would be excellent.

00:52:45Please.

00:52:48Yeah, I'm just thinking through it more, but...

00:52:52No, no, don't, don't, because thinking through it is a way of not communicating.

00:52:55You're sort of trying to pick your words and be diplomatic, and this is a time for

00:52:59directness, right?

00:53:00So, I don't need you to be diplomatic, or hesitant, or what if this is wrong, or...

00:53:06Like, you just need to speak from the heart, right?

00:53:08Otherwise, it just feels very censorious, and I have to try and puzzle out what's in

00:53:12the spaces between the words.

00:53:14So, why do you fear losing relationships if you tell the truth?

00:53:21Where does that come from?

00:53:25It's not natural, we're not born that way, right?

00:53:28We're only...

00:53:29Sorry to interrupt right off your bat, but you understand, we're all born with the absolute

00:53:35need to make other people incredibly uncomfortable in order to survive, right?

00:53:39I don't have to tell you guys this, you have 14,000 babies under the age of two months,

00:53:44if I remember my math correctly.

00:53:46So, babies cry, and they scream, and they, you know, wail, and gnash their teeth, and

00:53:52so on, so that you can help them, right?

00:53:54So, we all, our foundational relationships are based on survival through discomfort,

00:54:00right?

00:54:00So, we start off with this template of, yes, you absolutely have to cause discomfort in

00:54:07order to survive.

00:54:08So, that has to change, if that makes...

00:54:11Like, that has to be reversed, and that's not a peaceful reversal, that's usually a

00:54:15threatened reversal, if that makes sense.

00:54:18So, just so you know, we're starting from the template of, you tell the truth, though

00:54:23the skies fall, you tell the truth and shame the devil, you tell the truth and it doesn't

00:54:27matter if it's uncomfortable to other people, but you have to tell the truth, because if

00:54:30you don't tell the truth, there is no relationship.

00:54:34It's a pretend relationship, it's a pseudo relationship, but you can't have a relationship

00:54:41without the truth.

00:54:42So, somewhere, the principle of, be direct and honest, which babies and toddlers have,

00:54:49was reversed, and I guess that's my question, is how did that happen?

00:54:54And that, I think it gets back to your question of our family.

00:55:00Well, my family never had that.

00:55:04There wasn't that level of directness.

00:55:11Yeah.

00:55:15Now, again, I hate to be a nag, but I'm going to, because I'm just talking about the virtue

00:55:19of directness.

00:55:20What you said is not true.

00:55:22So, it's not that your family did not have that directness.

00:55:28It's not that your family did not have that directness.

00:55:30It had to be, in order to reverse the directness of infancy and toddlerhood into this mishmash

00:55:38of avoidance and self-erasure, there has to be massive pressure and threats applied.

00:55:43Right.

00:55:47So, it's not that they didn't have it.

00:55:49It's that it was actively attacked and punished and threatened.

00:55:53It had to be that, because how on earth could you reverse it from the directness of infancy

00:55:59and toddlerhood into this spacey avoidance that has to be the result of, well, it didn't

00:56:05just fade away.

00:56:08You know, it's like a hugely broken arm.

00:56:10It didn't just happen.

00:56:11Something had to break it.

00:56:13So, what happened to punish honesty and directness?

00:56:17How was it threatened and punished?

00:56:24I don't know.

00:56:25I guess a couple things that come to mind is my mom would not listen to my dad when

00:56:33he would try to leave.

00:56:40Whenever someone would try to assert themselves, I guess whoever it might be,

00:56:48it would shut down.

00:56:49And I don't really know what the cause.

00:56:53There was a weird one time we were on, I think it was the first vacation I ever went on with

00:57:01you guys, right after we got married.

00:57:03With your whole family.

00:57:05And they were like, what should we do today?

00:57:07And I said what I wanted to do that day.

00:57:10And they all got upset that I was ruling what we did that day by stating what I wanted and

00:57:18that that wasn't fair and that we were supposed to all kind of skirt around the issues until

00:57:25we could figure out subliminally what people wanted to do.

00:57:30That's a good example.

00:57:31Yeah, that's great.

00:57:32That's a great description.

00:57:34It's like these psychic mosquitoes need to pass between everyone and coalesce into some

00:57:38kind of plan.

00:57:39So that's fascinating.

00:57:40That's how my family works, yeah.

00:57:41Well, it doesn't work, obviously, right?

00:57:44Yeah, I know.

00:57:45So that's fascinating.

00:57:46So this is to your wife, right?

00:57:50So his family says to you, what do you want to do?

00:57:56And you, crazy fool that you are, think that they're actually asking you what you want

00:58:01to do.

00:58:02Because you come from a more direct family, right?

00:58:06Yes.

00:58:06So what do you want to do?

00:58:08Oh, okay.

00:58:09So they must know what I want to do.

00:58:11I want to go to the beach.

00:58:12And then they're like, oh, which is weird, right?

00:58:16Well, they're like, why are you making us go to the beach?

00:58:20No, did she did they literally say, why are you making us go to the beach?

00:58:24I was basically like,

00:58:25That was the feeling.

00:58:26Because it's almost like by saying something there, they feel forced to do it.

00:58:33Yeah.

00:58:35Okay, so where does that come from?

00:58:37Who does that come from?

00:58:38I don't know.

00:58:43Yeah, that was because he was transplanted many states away while we were dating.

00:58:52He saw me with my family all the time.

00:58:56And I didn't really see him with his family much.

00:59:00Wow.

00:59:02Excuse make much.

00:59:04That's a good one.

00:59:06Well, I just couldn't really because I hadn't seen you had seen him with his family,

00:59:09because you'd seen him and he's an effect of his family.

00:59:12So his personality had to have been formed by them.

00:59:14So you met them before you met them by through him and his behavior, right?

00:59:20He must have been over solicitous with you, right?

00:59:25What do you want to do?

00:59:26I don't know.

00:59:26What do you want to like?

00:59:27It must have been that sort of stuff.

00:59:29He kind of been super assertive from that kind of family, and then it just vanished

00:59:33and then vanished again.

00:59:36That's true.

00:59:37I probably just told him to figure out what he wanted and do that.

00:59:43Sorry, I don't know what you mean.

00:59:50So how did you see your husband when you were dating before you met his family?

00:59:54How did you see the effects of this bizarre, though, though, not uncommon family structure?

01:00:12No, I, the camping trip with her while we were dating.

01:00:17With who?

01:00:17We left it.

01:00:18We left while we were dating.

01:00:19We did a camping trip with his sister.

01:00:22And so that was the first family member of his I met.

01:00:25Sorry, I thought she was camping on this guy's lawn.

01:00:27Okay, so she went to a different kind of camping.

01:00:29Sorry, just kidding.

01:00:29Go on.

01:00:31Yeah, and I, we were driving home after like the weekend camping trip.

01:00:38And I was like, oh, I thought that went well.

01:00:42And then apparently he looked at me horrified and said that it went terribly and that she

01:00:49couldn't stand me.

01:00:52What?

01:00:54Interesting.

01:00:55Okay, go on.

01:00:58And I, it was, it was, it was very bizarre because I thought it was fine.

01:01:08I thought she was like, not particularly friendly.

01:01:10And like, I didn't really like her, but I thought that considering the very low opinion

01:01:18I had of her, that it went fine because I thought that the 10 year relationship thing

01:01:23was insane.

01:01:24And that.

01:01:25But it wasn't 10 years at that point, was it?

01:01:27Well, it was like eight years or something at that point.

01:01:31Okay, so you turned to your wife.

01:01:34No, was she a wife yet?

01:01:36No, we were dating.

01:01:37Dating.

01:01:37Okay.

01:01:38And how long into the relationship?

01:01:40Six months.

01:01:43Five months.

01:01:44All right.

01:01:44So, I mean, obviously, how long were you guys dating before you got married?

01:01:48Like 12 months, 13 months.

01:01:51You know, it's so nice to hear a sane answer.

01:01:53I got to tell you, you know, these shows run the gamut and either it's like 72 hours or

01:02:0012 years.

01:02:01Yeah, it's nice to hear a sane, a sane answer.

01:02:03Like a year seems about right.

01:02:04Okay, so this is your husband.

01:02:07You go camping with your sister.

01:02:08How did you know your sister hated your, she wasn't your fiancé yet, though I assume that

01:02:12was coming pretty quickly.

01:02:13No, yeah.

01:02:15But you knew, did you have, I think you wanted to marry her?

01:02:19No.

01:02:20So at that point we were, at that point, definitely liked her and could see her as

01:02:30the one, but I don't think I decided at that point.

01:02:33You could see it, right?

01:02:35Yes.

01:02:35Yep.

01:02:35It was, it was on the path towards it.

01:02:37Yes.

01:02:37Okay.

01:02:37So, I mean, had you fallen in love, had you said the, I love you kind of stuff?

01:02:44No, not at that point.

01:02:46Okay.

01:02:47But it's serious enough that you're going camping with a family member, right?

01:02:50And this was the first family member.

01:02:51Yeah, beginning of the year.

01:02:52This is the first family member that she'd met, is that right?

01:02:56Yes.

01:02:57You met my parents before, I mean, maybe not.

01:02:59I don't think so.

01:03:00I don't think you met your parents until like seven or eight months in.

01:03:05Oh, that's wrong.

01:03:07I'm really wrong on that.

01:03:08I forgot about that.

01:03:09We did do a trip.

01:03:10It was like two months into dating up to where he's from.

01:03:14And I did stay with his parents and him that weekend before we flew back.

01:03:22And it was a couple of months later that we went camping with my sister, I think.

01:03:25Okay.

01:03:26Let's just go to the camping thing, because I think that's really fascinating.

01:03:29I mean, it's all really fascinating.

01:03:31I don't mean to divide it into interesting and not, it's all really fascinating.

01:03:34Okay.

01:03:34So, five months in, obviously you care about her because she's met your family

01:03:40and she's now going camping with your sister.

01:03:42So, this is to the husband.

01:03:43Why, I'm just going to call you guys Bob and Alice, because the husband all sounds

01:03:47too abstract, if that's all right.

01:03:49Okay.

01:03:49So, to Bob, why did you think that your sister hated Alice?

01:03:58I think it was afterwards she had told me, I'm trying to remember now, because I don't-

01:04:04Well, you and her, I think you and her went off on some long walk

01:04:09the last night of the weekend camping trip.

01:04:13Okay.

01:04:14And I think, and I didn't think too much of it, I don't know.

01:04:19Apparently, it was her spilling all the reasons that she didn't like me and thought-

01:04:24So, sorry, Bob, why is it hard, you were actually in that conversation,

01:04:27why is it hard to answer this question?

01:04:31What did your sister say, what did she say that she disliked?

01:04:35What did she say that she disliked about my wife?

01:04:38Scalding tactic, we're only talking about one person here, so, go ahead.

01:04:44Now, you don't have to give me all the details if it's really unpleasant or whatever,

01:04:47and obviously not true, because you're married and happy.

01:04:50But-

01:04:51I think she was surprised by, she didn't like the directness, number one, but interesting

01:04:57given what we talked about earlier, right?

01:05:00What we talked about earlier, right?

01:05:01But she didn't like the directness, she felt that she wasn't being included, even though-

01:05:12She wasn't being what?

01:05:12She didn't feel she was being included because she had to take a work call.

01:05:19My wife and I, at the time, girlfriend, we walked around the lake, I think it was,

01:05:24and then we came back too late for her.

01:05:28So, she got upset at that point because we were not including her, right?

01:05:32Something done like that.

01:05:34Oh my god, how old was your sister at this point?

01:05:3724, 25?

01:05:39Well, you're 27, because she would have been 25.

01:05:42Yeah.

01:05:43No, she would have just turned 26.

01:05:45Oh, so she'd been in this relationship with this guy at this point since she was 18?

01:05:50Yeah.

01:05:51Okay, what is, that's so bizarre.

01:05:54She's on a work call, you walk around the lake, and you come back a little too late for her tastes.

01:05:58Yeah.

01:06:00And when your sister said, I don't like your girlfriend because you walked around the lake,

01:06:05I know there was obviously other stuff too, what did you say?

01:06:13I don't remember.

01:06:15Okay, what did you think about that as a criticism of-

01:06:18Yeah, I thought it was unreasonable, and I thought it was-

01:06:24I think I told her something to the effect of,

01:06:28we didn't know when you were going to be done, so we just kept walking around.

01:06:30We were waiting to get a call from you.

01:06:32Oh, so you tried to defend the details.

01:06:39Yeah.

01:06:40As opposed to saying, you know, this is why the guy won't marry you, right?

01:06:45This crazy neediness, or like, this is nuts.

01:06:47Right.

01:06:48You took a work call, we could say, well, you excluded us.

01:06:51No, you took a work call, we walked around the lake.

01:06:54I don't care when we came back.

01:06:56It's completely irrelevant.

01:06:58Yeah, that's true.

01:07:01So why did you go to your girlfriend and say, my sister hates you?

01:07:08Well, I don't think he said it that way at the time.

01:07:12Okay, we can massage it however we want, but isn't that- that's what I was told was

01:07:18transmitted.

01:07:19Now, again, we can say, oh, my sister has some issues or whatever.

01:07:22So you expressed your sister's dislike of Alice.

01:07:26Is that right, Bob?

01:07:27To- to- to Alice.

01:07:32I think so.

01:07:32Or I said, like, she didn't have a good time.

01:07:34I don't know.

01:07:35Something like that.

01:07:36Okay, Alice, you remember this because women are- are sticky vaults with this kind of stuff,

01:07:41right?

01:07:41So what did he say?

01:07:45If I am remembering it rightly, it was something like,

01:07:49that's not how she felt about it.

01:07:52Okay.

01:07:54Now, what was your impression-

01:07:55It went pretty well.

01:07:56I'm sorry, you- so you said you thought you had a good time,

01:07:59and- and the reason you said that is your family's direct.

01:08:03Right?

01:08:04So if she didn't say she had a problem with you, then you'd assume that there's no problem

01:08:07because your family's more direct.

01:08:09So she complains about Alice to Bob, and then Bob go- you go to Alice and say,

01:08:17in response to your sister saying I had a good time, or think that pretty well, saying,

01:08:21no, she doesn't like you, or something like that, right?

01:08:25I think he said she doesn't feel the same way.

01:08:29Yeah.

01:08:30So he wasn't even direct about that.

01:08:35I'm sorry, what did you say?

01:08:37He wasn't even direct about that.

01:08:40That's true, yes.

01:08:41Okay.

01:08:43So, why would you- so, when you said that, what was your sort of thought or feeling about

01:08:53the conflict between your sister and your girlfriend?

01:09:00Or put it another way, who was in the wrong?

01:09:03So, my sister, or- I'm not sure what you're asking, I guess I'm confused, but my sister-

01:09:08Okay, so when you're saying my sister doesn't like you, who was wrong?

01:09:13Was your sister right to not like your girlfriend?

01:09:15Oh, no, yeah, my sister was wrong.

01:09:17Okay, so Alice, did he communicate that my sister doesn't like you for completely insane

01:09:23reasons, I can't believe it, she's totally in the wrong?

01:09:26Okay, so why not?

01:09:29Again, this is- I'm telling you, Bob, I'm not trying to pick on you, because, don't

01:09:32worry, we'll get to Alice, right?

01:09:33But I'm just trying to point out that this bearing false witness is you're lying.

01:09:38And I'm not saying you're some big liar, and I'm like, I'm just- but in terms of- it's

01:09:42false.

01:09:42If you think your sister's crazy for the criticism she has of Alice, and then you tell her that

01:09:48she's wrong, and then you tell her that she's wrong, and then you tell her that she's wrong,

01:09:53for the criticism she has of Alice, and then you tell Alice your sister doesn't like her,

01:09:58and don't take Alice's side, and disavow your sister's crazy problems, then you have a loyalty

01:10:06to Alice, at the expense of your sister, that you genuinely believe, but you're not saying

01:10:11to Alice.

01:10:16Yeah.

01:10:19I don't know why.

01:10:21I mean, I'm sorry to just keep harping on the faith.

01:10:24See, get it?

01:10:24Faith and harp?

01:10:25Anyway.

01:10:26But- and Ireland, come to think of it.

01:10:28So- but this is honesty, isn't it?

01:10:31This is- I mean, whether you say it's just be honest, or thou shall not bear false witness,

01:10:36isn't this-

01:10:37Yeah, it's being forthright and truthful, yeah.

01:10:40Right.

01:10:41So if you say- and listen, this- I don't want to speak for Alice here, but for women,

01:10:48it's kind of a big deal if his sister, who he's very close to, doesn't like you, right?

01:10:56Yes, except that I already didn't like her.

01:11:01I get that.

01:11:01From what I'd heard about her.

01:11:02It's also a big deal that you didn't like her.

01:11:06Yes, it is.

01:11:06Because you're marrying into this family, and your husband says,

01:11:10I'm super close to my sister, and you don't like each other.

01:11:14This is very obvious when you say it that way.

01:11:19But it wasn't at the time?

01:11:22It was in some ways, but not to the extent once you've lived it.

01:11:28Well, and it certainly did turn out to be a big problem when you had babies and sickness,

01:11:32and a pathologically needy co-dependent sister leading in your ear like Iago every night.

01:11:39Yeah.

01:11:41So it kind of did.

01:11:42So it kind of did.

01:11:43We almost did break up right after getting engaged over his sister.

01:11:49Well, so that's what I'm trying to sort of figure out, because this is a very big deal.

01:11:54This is a very big deal, because when two women, and this can happen with men too,

01:11:58but when two women are facing each other as enemies, right?

01:12:04Then you, Bob, as the man, are caught in the middle, right?

01:12:07Yeah.

01:12:08Okay.

01:12:09Now, which side was right?

01:12:21My wife, which is why I married her, because she said we almost broke up.

01:12:27No, no, no.

01:12:28It's not enough to marry her.

01:12:31Right.

01:12:32What should you have done?

01:12:36I should have silenced my sister.

01:12:38That's what I was getting to, is that before the engagement, before the wedding, I think,

01:12:50my sister then said additional things that she didn't like about my fiance at the time.

01:12:58And I then stopped talking to my sister.

01:13:04I don't know if I said it.

01:13:05I'm trying to remember the conversation with her.

01:13:07At that point, I said I disagree, and then I went forward with

01:13:15getting engaged and or the wedding.

01:13:17I forget the sequence there, but then that made her all the more upset that I

01:13:24chose to ignore her feelings over the matter.

01:13:28You chose to ignore her feelings, and she's insulting the woman you love and want to marry.

01:13:33But apparently, her feelings are all that matter.

01:13:35Oh, she's toxic.

01:13:36Yeah.

01:13:37Yeah.

01:13:38Okay, so then you stopped talking to her for some period of time?

01:13:44No, then it came.

01:13:45That's the problem.

01:13:45That's when it came.

01:13:46So I stopped talking to her until getting married then, because it's like, okay, I've

01:13:52heard your opinion, but I disagree.

01:13:54So I'm just going to get married, but then—

01:13:58Okay, so everything—

01:13:59Sorry, Bob.

01:14:00Everything there is false, except for the getting married part.

01:14:03Everything there is false.

01:14:05Your sister did not put this forward as an opinion, did she?

01:14:12What do you mean?

01:14:13Well, an opinion is something that is subjective, right?

01:14:18As opposed to a fact, right?

01:14:21Okay, yeah.

01:14:22I'm sure she probably presented it as a fact.

01:14:24Yeah, yeah.

01:14:25She is this way.

01:14:26She's insensitive.

01:14:27She doesn't do this.

01:14:28She didn't—she walked around the lake, and she's—so when you say that's your

01:14:33opinion, that's not the case, because it wasn't her opinion.

01:14:36It was a fact for her, right?

01:14:38Or a series of facts.

01:14:39And a series of pretty damning facts, right?

01:14:43She was condemning the personality of the woman you love, right?

01:14:47And the character and the morals of the woman you love, right?

01:14:52Okay, so it was not an opinion.

01:14:54It was an absolute fact and condemnation and judgment, right?

01:15:00Yeah.

01:15:01And it was not the case that you disagree.

01:15:07You know, if somebody says to me, I don't know, Paul McCartney is a better singer than

01:15:11Freddie Mercury, right?

01:15:12It's like, well, yeah, I disagree.

01:15:13This is an opinion, right?

01:15:14This is not—but if somebody says, if somebody says two and two make five, I don't just disagree

01:15:20with them.

01:15:21They're wrong.

01:15:23Yep, she's wrong.

01:15:23Yes, I should—I did not say that, though, but you're right.

01:15:27So, no, no, no, but this is important because this is about loyalty.

01:15:31This is about loyalty.

01:15:37Yeah.

01:15:39Anyone who condemns the woman you love—oof, I mean, I have to say this from my own personal

01:15:46experience.

01:15:46I had a very close family member say to me that he wasn't going to bother to get to know

01:15:51my wife because we were just going to get divorced anyway.

01:15:57And I didn't even debate.

01:15:58Oh, I disagree, and—like, sorry, I don't mean to mock you, but it's like, no, it's

01:16:02just like, you're done.

01:16:03Like, we're done.

01:16:04We're done.

01:16:06Don't you step between my heart and its objects, right, and what I love and what I

01:16:12treasure.

01:16:13If you don't see the immense beauty that is my bride-to-be, we have nothing in common,

01:16:20and I want to have nothing to do with it.

01:16:24Yep.

01:16:25Yep.

01:16:27So, you are way too diplomatic and not decisive enough, right?

01:16:34And there is, I think, a certain amount of honesty—sorry, dishonesty in that, right?

01:16:38It must have been pretty appalling for you, for your sister, to condemn the morals and

01:16:42character of the woman you love.

01:16:49So, when your sister says that, how long before the wedding did she say that?

01:16:56I don't remember.

01:17:02It was probably within a few weeks.

01:17:04Yeah, not—

01:17:05So, a few weeks before—oh, my gosh.

01:17:08So, a few weeks before the wedding, she's kind of trashing your bride-to-be?

01:17:15Yeah.

01:17:17So, why would she be at the wedding, which is a celebration of love, with a woman who

01:17:24hates the bride?

01:17:25And not just hates her, but judges her morally as bad in terrible ways, right?

01:17:30Significant ways.

01:17:33I knew at the time I shouldn't have done it, but I changed the wedding date for her, too.

01:17:37Oh, my gosh!

01:17:40Honey, are you kidding me?

01:17:44I wish I was.

01:17:45I wonder if this is maybe helpful.

01:17:48I don't know how this is helpful, but like—

01:17:49What's going on?

01:17:50It's almost—

01:17:51Family structure!

01:17:52Come on.

01:17:53Yeah.

01:17:54Well, maybe just connect this back to the Taco Bell story, right?

01:17:57It's almost a similar thing where I didn't do what was right and I should have done for

01:18:05my wife, for us, but then she ends up like, not giving in, but—I don't know.

01:18:14Giving in, I guess, for lack of a better term.

01:18:15Giving in, at least marginally.

01:18:17Well, do you remember how I said I was going to turn like a rabid dog on Alice?

01:18:23I had a little bit of a grip.

01:18:25Hold up that pet-a-dog, sister.

01:18:26It's coming.

01:18:29I'm not ready.

01:18:30There's some connection there.

01:18:32You've had 19 babies in three weeks.

01:18:34You can handle it.

01:18:37All right.

01:18:38Alice, my good friend, are you ready?

01:18:42Okay.

01:18:43Okay.

01:18:45Okay.

01:18:45This absolute wretch of a sister who won't take even the slightest criticism of her own

01:18:52relationship is perfectly happy to trash an engagement.

01:18:57I mean, you understand the hypocrisy here is demonic, almost.

01:19:02Yeah.

01:19:03She later called our wedding the worst day of her life.

01:19:07Oh my gosh, you guys.

01:19:09I'm trying not to have an end.

01:19:10I'm just massaging my temple here to try and clear the aneurysm.

01:19:14We both feel it gathering.

01:19:16Sorry, go ahead.

01:19:17Yeah.

01:19:17No, no, don't tell me anymore.

01:19:19Let me get rid of this bulge first.

01:19:20Okay, go ahead.

01:19:22We both come from very messed up families, just in different ways.

01:19:25No, no, I'm focusing on Alice now.

01:19:28You've had your turn.

01:19:28I'll stop talking, maybe.

01:19:29I'll stop talking.

01:19:30When you said the divided loyalties thing and that I married somebody who wasn't loyal,

01:19:35I was like, holy crap, my mom did that.

01:19:40Oh, okay.

01:19:41Well, yeah, nice way to distract me with your childhood, and we'll get to that in a sec.

01:19:45Let's focus on the chomp chomp first.

01:19:49Okay.

01:19:50So, Bob is not honest and direct, and Alice, neither are you in some areas.

01:20:02So, when your sister squared off against you, you knew it was a big deal, right?

01:20:10Is this the sibling he claimed to be closest to?

01:20:15Yes, I knew it was a big deal.

01:20:17That's a big deal, right?

01:20:18Did you say to him, this is a very big deal, this is going to be a big issue,

01:20:23we're going to have to figure this one out?

01:20:27I think I basically said that, yeah.

01:20:29Okay, and Bob, what do you remember of that?

01:20:33You said that first before we got married, and that was when we almost broke up.

01:20:37And then, I'm sure you said it afterwards, but multiple times, probably.

01:20:44Okay.

01:20:44Well, sorry, but so, sorry, so this is a big deal.

01:20:48You've got this woman who dislikes you for, it sounds like, pretty petty and terrible

01:20:54reasons, and who herself cannot manage any kind of relationship, and, God help the planet,

01:20:59is now a therapist.

01:21:01But.

01:21:03Right.

01:21:05Right.

01:21:07You moved the wedding, and you did not demand that your husband take your side, no matter

01:21:14what.

01:21:14And what does the Bible say?

01:21:16A man and his wife, a husband and a wife become what?

01:21:22Flesh.

01:21:22One flesh.

01:21:26If you have a problem with my wife, you have a problem with me.

01:21:31Not just like, well, I disagree with your opinion.

01:21:34If you hate her, you hate me, because we're one flesh.

01:21:40I mean, my dad did say that stuff to you about your sister.

01:21:45What did he say?

01:21:48When it got, it kind of was blowing up, I think, I don't know if it was right before

01:21:53we got engaged or after, and I was talking about it with my parents, and some with my

01:22:01husband, Bob.

01:22:03And my dad met with him and told him that he had to do something about the thing, or

01:22:13he didn't support us getting married.

01:22:15Okay.

01:22:18And?

01:22:21Was that when you stopped talking to her for a time?

01:22:25I don't remember now.

01:22:26What was the kid?

01:22:27When was the first year?

01:22:28Um, what happened after that was before engagement?

01:22:38Because then we met together after that, and I was prepared to break it off.

01:22:45Even though, yeah, I think we were like half an hour from engagement almost at that point.

01:22:52But then.

01:22:56We didn't, and I don't remember why.

01:22:59But at some point, things not got better, but like.

01:23:05Somehow you got more okay with it, but probably just looked past it or something, because

01:23:10at some point, then you communicate to your dad that.

01:23:15It was okay or something, because then he then told me, okay, you have my blessing again.

01:23:20But it wasn't resolved.

01:23:24It may be a way, so sorry, your father in law, Bob, your father in law gave a big speech

01:23:28about this has to be resolved.

01:23:29It wasn't resolved and he just went ahead with anything with everything anyway.

01:23:38I'm assuming there must have been some type of.

01:23:44I won't let her come between us and what she said was wrong.

01:23:49Yeah, I think I sided with something I said, I said, or did some things to make you feel

01:23:56assured and then you shared that with your dad.

01:24:00Sorry, say that again.

01:24:01I didn't quite follow that.

01:24:02My apologies.

01:24:06Yeah, I must have said some things, something to my wife now.

01:24:12About like.

01:24:15She's wrong.

01:24:16I.

01:24:17I decided, like, I want to marry you, but like.

01:24:21Somehow, I assured her that it would.

01:24:27Not happening again, my loyalties were with her.

01:24:32And that got her comfortable enough somehow.

01:24:34I think we're both fuzzy in the details there.

01:24:38Yeah, and I, like, truly cannot remember.

01:24:41Yeah, how it must not have really gotten resolved because I know it wouldn't have been because

01:24:47then it came up after.

01:24:48Okay, so Bob, what did your family think about your sister and all of this stuff?

01:24:58It.

01:24:59Trying to remember now, did they?

01:25:03No, they were supportive of us.

01:25:08They didn't spend a lot of time with.

01:25:11My wife before we got married, because they had different states, but they were supportive.

01:25:16I don't know how much they knew.

01:25:18You remember at all about you.

01:25:23I don't think they like, like, me because of my personality.

01:25:30It was you were very different, but they didn't like, dislike me at the time.

01:25:36Yeah, so it wasn't like, are we talking here?

01:25:38Well, like, in the dating early marriage phase,

01:25:42I assume, I assume that the sister would have vented her dislike of you, Alice, to the family,

01:25:48to Bob's family, because their family, right?

01:25:52Yeah, probably.

01:25:54But my sister was also a little bit, not a strange, that's a little bit too strong.

01:26:00Definitely strange for my mom at the time.

01:26:03And still is.

01:26:04Yeah.

01:26:05Yeah.

01:26:06Um, definitely strange for my mom at the time.

01:26:10And still is.

01:26:11Still is, yeah.

01:26:13Somewhat, I don't know, close is the right word with my dad, but like,

01:26:17so I don't, I don't know how much she would have shared,

01:26:20but to your point, she probably did share something, just not sure.

01:26:24I feel like she would have shared a fairly significant amount with her dad.

01:26:28I would imagine, yeah.

01:26:30Because he does, he kind of does the, the like, nods along to the feelings until,

01:26:38and then says something else to someone else later.

01:26:41Yeah.

01:26:44But I never heard anything, I don't think, from them about that.

01:26:49So they never said, look, you've got a conflict between your fiance and your sister,

01:26:56so we need to sit down and work this stuff out.

01:27:00Right.

01:27:01And I, I don't think so.

01:27:02And I think that the part of the problems of the family I grew up with,

01:27:07now that I carry in now, I guess.

01:27:10Okay.

01:27:11We didn't work through conflicts.

01:27:13Yeah, we didn't really work through conflicts.

01:27:17My dad would try to as a family, but it just never worked.

01:27:21And we weren't able to, there's a lot of

01:27:24interpersonal conflicts between different members of the family.

01:27:27And just, we learned to all not learn to get along with fake relationships.

01:27:35Is that a fair way?

01:27:38Yeah, probably.

01:27:40So you like my family?

01:27:41Probably.

01:27:41I mean, there's a lot, this is a lot of words.

01:27:43So you like, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of dishonesty and like,

01:27:48and we both do it with both of our families.

01:27:51I'm sorry.

01:27:51I thought Alice, I thought your family was more.

01:27:53Oh, just in different ways?

01:27:55Yeah.

01:27:57There is a lot of directness in some ways,

01:28:00but then not in some of the most fundamental ways.

01:28:04Okay.

01:28:05So in what is their directness?

01:28:07And I don't count the sister crabbing about you as directness.

01:28:12I just view that as discontented sabotage.

01:28:16Yeah.

01:28:18So where is the directness showing up?

01:28:20From.

01:28:22You said the family to direct in some ways and indirect in others.

01:28:25And I'm not doubting you, of course, I just want to know where does the directness show up?

01:28:28I was saying, well, my family's directness showed up in how my dad, like actually sat my husband down

01:28:35when we were just before engagement with the sister.

01:28:39Yes, but it didn't matter.

01:28:41Yeah.

01:28:42Right.

01:28:42I think that's because my side, which is a lot more direct,

01:28:46my side, which is a lot more direct, is not fundamentally honest.

01:28:51And what are they not honest about?

01:28:55Oh, boy.

01:28:56Where do you even start with that?

01:28:58Well, I was going to make a general comment, I guess.

01:29:00I think that does.

01:29:02There's the like boldness and directness up front, but then it's not like carried through,

01:29:07which is kind of the same way of saying it's not honest.

01:29:10So it's like some sort of honesty, but without any consequences.

01:29:15Yeah.

01:29:15Yes, that's a good way.

01:29:16No follow through, it doesn't really mean anything.

01:29:19Right.

01:29:20Like there were issues, significant issues in my family, my parents' marriage,

01:29:24as when I was a child, and it came to a head when I was like 13.

01:29:29And at that point, my dad decided to go no contact with his family.

01:29:34Sorry, which family?

01:29:37His parents and siblings.

01:29:40Ah, and do you know why he did that?

01:29:41Um, because his whole family, like his immediate family was like splitting apart at the time.

01:29:48That doesn't really answer anything, because I don't really know what any of that means.

01:29:55So many rabbit trails, important stuff.

01:29:59Let me see if I can just sort of make it a bit clearer.

01:30:03So, from what you know of your dad's conflict with his family,

01:30:06did you agree with his decision to go no contact?

01:30:09I did agree with it, but I was extremely upset in how it happened.

01:30:22And like, I felt like it should have been done far, far sooner.

01:30:27And what were the major issues?

01:30:28Was it about dishonesty?

01:30:31Was it about abuse?

01:30:32Was it about neglect?

01:30:33Was it about, um, was it about, um,

01:30:39lack of loyalty?

01:30:40What was the major issue or issues that your father had with his parents?

01:30:46They didn't like my mom.

01:30:49Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but you see the pattern.

01:30:52Yeah, I saw that like half an hour ago.

01:30:54Oh, I know what you mentioned it.

01:30:56I'm not, I'm not trying to claim any prize here for, for restating what you said about

01:30:59half an hour ago.

01:31:00So yeah, okay.

01:31:01So the pattern is, is clear and it says like, but, but your father did cut off his parents

01:31:08because they disapproved of your mother, right?

01:31:12Only once it went past him and her.

01:31:18Because I had gone on a sleepover with my grandparents, which we used to do occasionally,

01:31:24they'd like, you know, take us out to dinner or like they'd pick a grandkid, take you out

01:31:28to dinner, and then you could go shopping and buy some clothes and then spend the night

01:31:32and have a leisurely breakfast and go home.

01:31:34It was usually kind of like a nice time.

01:31:38But, um, my grandmother, my dad's mother used that time to explain to me all of the ways

01:31:45in which my mother was a terrible mother and did not love me or my father.

01:31:50Oh my gosh.

01:31:52That's absolutely appalling.

01:31:58That's absolutely appalling.

01:32:01Okay.

01:32:01So my mother, sorry, go ahead.

01:32:03And my mother was the more emotionally distant of my parents.

01:32:08And, uh, she, she and I are the opposite.

01:32:14I'm much more like my dad and not like her.

01:32:18Like we don't really get each other on a wavelength like she does with my sister.

01:32:23So we always had more conflict between us.

01:32:27Right.

01:32:28And this was the grandmother that I like felt an identity with.

01:32:32And like, so like, I like believed her on a lot of things.

01:32:38And then my parents like never really addressed it with me.

01:32:41So you believed her about how bad your mother was?

01:32:45Because in some ways, you're right.

01:32:48Right.

01:32:48Like my mother isn't perfect.

01:32:50Perfect.

01:32:51Not even close.

01:32:54It's kind of come up since then at different times where I can see it.

01:32:58She maybe tries to care about my wife, but there's a lot of selfishness there, I think.

01:33:06So there's some elements of truth, but it's not something you tell.

01:33:12Your granddaughter, of course.

01:33:14Yes, of course.

01:33:15But it's believable, if that makes sense.

01:33:19Right.

01:33:19It's easy for my wife to believe.

01:33:21Well, and it is absolutely.

01:33:23How old were you when your grandmother was telling you all this terrible stuff?

01:33:2713.

01:33:28Oh, my gosh.

01:33:29That's I mean, that's just poison, right?

01:33:31That's just pure poison.

01:33:33And it wrecked her next three years, like massive depression.

01:33:39Yeah.

01:33:40And my parents were like, well, since our daughter is a disaster now,

01:33:44um, and we think you did it.

01:33:47So my mom, you know, was like, if you don't do something about them, then I'm, you know,

01:33:55I don't know.

01:33:57I don't think she ever threatened to leave.

01:33:59But your mother to your dad?

01:34:03Yeah.

01:34:03Gosh, oh, gosh, that's that's I'm so sorry.

01:34:06That's just wretched.

01:34:07Well, and this is this is the lack of decisiveness, right?

01:34:09How did you how did your parents know?

01:34:11Or when did your parents find out that their parents were poisoning you?

01:34:17Well, it was because I treated my mom differently after that.

01:34:24And so mom like wanted to pry into it because it hurt her feelings that I wasn't being nice

01:34:33to her, like, I was short with her.

01:34:36I was being disrespectful to her.

01:34:44So you were acting out your grandmother's dislike of your mother against your mother

01:34:48and your parents sort of figured this out, like sort of reverse engineered it?

01:34:54Yes.

01:34:55Okay.

01:34:56And you were 13.

01:34:58So I assume that this had been going on for years, or did it only start at 13?

01:35:02Um, she always my grandmother always favored me over my siblings.

01:35:11I was the oldest grandchild.

01:35:13And I was the most personality wise.

01:35:19I mean, it's kind of horrifying to think about that.

01:35:23I was the most likely.

01:35:24But very, yeah.

01:35:28And there was a lot of favoritism.

01:35:33So my two younger siblings would often like she would bring me a president, not them.

01:35:40Well, and of course, that is also sabotage, right?

01:35:44Yeah.

01:35:47And there would be a reason because like, well, she's had an illness and you guys don't.

01:35:52Right.

01:35:52But still, I mean, it's just it's pointless, right?

01:35:55I mean, it just doesn't work.

01:35:56It's just terrible.

01:35:58And of course, there's a lot of conflict within the family.

01:36:00And then they get to leave with a bunch of discontented, upset kids and sort of

01:36:04roll back to their lair.

01:36:07Okay.

01:36:10And my dad's sibling lived down the street with their several kids about our ages.

01:36:15And they would be at their house and we'd see their car there all the time.

01:36:21And they would visit us like two or three times a year.

01:36:24Okay.

01:36:25And they'd be at my cousin's like three times a week.

01:36:29Sorry, who would be?

01:36:32My grandparents.

01:36:33They would visit you?

01:36:35You mean when you were a kid?

01:36:38No, they would visit my cousin's, my dad's sister's kids three times a week or so.

01:36:46And they would stop at our house down the street, you know, like twice a year.

01:36:52Right.

01:36:53Okay.

01:36:54My dad was always the least favorite kid for sure.

01:36:58Well, I mean, he obviously had the most capacity to tell the truth because he didn't end up

01:37:02calling them out and then split, right?

01:37:04And so how old were you when he split with his parents?

01:37:10I would have been 13.

01:37:12Okay.

01:37:12And when your grandmother over the years had said all these terrible things about your

01:37:16mother, right?

01:37:18Yes.

01:37:19Right.

01:37:19Not to me as much over the years.

01:37:22It was mostly at that one sleepover.

01:37:25Okay.

01:37:26But she definitely did all that poison, right?

01:37:28But she was complaining in my dad's ear about my mother since the beginning.

01:37:36Right.

01:37:36So in the same way that Bob's sister is complaining about you and you all have

01:37:40trouble with the toxic femininity, right?

01:37:43Yeah.

01:37:43It's exactly that.

01:37:44Yeah.

01:37:45Okay.

01:37:46Yeah, that makes sense.

01:37:48So why did you move the wedding date?

01:37:52Why?

01:37:53And I know this sounds like I'm like yelling at you, like, why?

01:37:56I mean, but why?

01:37:57I mean, she's a horrible person.

01:37:59She's making everybody's, well, she's making your life difficult.

01:38:02She doesn't like it.

01:38:03And she can't honestly say, right, you know, this is the big question and this is where,

01:38:07you know, you all are Christians, which is lovely in many ways, but I don't think you

01:38:11got the, if anybody knows any reason why this marriage should not continue, speak now or

01:38:16what?

01:38:18Forever hold your peace.

01:38:19Shut up!

01:38:21Forever hold your peace.

01:38:22There's a reason for that.

01:38:23It doesn't come out of nowhere.

01:38:25It's so people don't poison a marriage with children in it.

01:38:29Yeah.

01:38:30Yeah.

01:38:30Right?

01:38:31Yeah, my parents' marriage was a nightmare for my entire childhood and a lot of it was

01:38:35due to poisoning.

01:38:37Well, no, sorry to be annoying and correct you about your own family, but it's not.

01:38:44It's not.

01:38:45Because your dad chose to have that in his life.

01:38:50Mm-hmm.

01:38:51Right?

01:38:52No, it's not.

01:38:53Not the parents.

01:38:55Yeah.

01:38:56Right?

01:38:56I mean, I don't mean to quote our good buddy Jay, but he says, I have come to set mother

01:39:02against father, brother against sister, which means that when you do the right thing, a

01:39:05lot of times your family will hit the roof.

01:39:08It's right there.

01:39:09Jesus says it.

01:39:11That says if you do the right thing, your family's going to have meltdowns on a regular

01:39:14basis.

01:39:14That's I don't, I don't want to jump us too far, but that's kind of what we're dealing

01:39:24with now with various members of both families.

01:39:29Yeah, no, but let's get back.

01:39:31We'll get there.

01:39:32So let's get back to the sister and the wedding, right?

01:39:34Sorry.

01:39:36Yeah, I moved it.

01:39:38Sorry.

01:39:38No, but did you want her at your wedding?

01:39:40This is too, too.

01:39:41No, I didn't want her there.

01:39:42Okay.

01:39:43So why wasn't that just a condition of getting married?

01:39:46This woman doesn't like me.

01:39:47She trash talks me.

01:39:48She says I shouldn't get married.

01:39:49I don't want her at my wedding.

01:39:50That's a reasonable thing to say, isn't it?

01:39:54Yes.

01:39:54I don't think Jason would have cried.

01:39:56Yeah.

01:39:56I don't think my husband would have married me if I had made that condition.

01:40:00Really?

01:40:01And I, and I wanted to get married.

01:40:05And so this is to Bob.

01:40:07Is that true?

01:40:13You would have chosen toxic, dysfunctional sister over the woman you love.

01:40:29I don't mean to sound appalled.

01:40:31I'm a little surprised.

01:40:33So I'm, I'm, I'm certainly happy to hear the case, but this is a woman who can't,

01:40:38who couldn't run a popsicle stand and can't run her marriage and is negative and gets mad at you

01:40:43guys for taking a walk around the lake and trashes the woman you love.

01:40:46And my God, like, help me understand.

01:40:48You wouldn't have married her if your sister couldn't come to the wedding.

01:40:54I'm trying to put myself.

01:40:55No, I was able to tell my sister, no, like I'm going forward with this, no matter what you say.

01:41:03But then if, if the condition or the boundary would have been put in place by my wife, then.

01:41:10And push them.

01:41:11What I'm sorry, sorry, again, I don't know where your Christianity is,

01:41:15but the boundary is not in put in place by your wife.

01:41:19Right now.

01:41:20Yeah.

01:41:20Who puts the boundary?

01:41:23It should have been me.

01:41:24No, who puts the boundary in where does don't have people who oppose the marriage at the

01:41:31marriage?

01:41:32Who puts that in?

01:41:33Who puts that in as a requirement for marriage for getting married?

01:41:38God.

01:41:38Exactly.

01:41:39God says, this is a celebration of love.

01:41:43Thou shalt not bear false witness means that your sister would have to say, I know of a

01:41:47reason why this marriage shouldn't continue.

01:41:49The wife is horrible.

01:41:51And here's why.

01:41:52And like, it would have been a complete disaster, right?

01:41:55Yep.

01:41:55So there's a reason why, and it's not coming from you.

01:42:00It should come from your faith.

01:42:03Yep.

01:42:04And I think it's the, it's the hypocrisy maybe of the hypocrisy.

01:42:16I was believing that it wouldn't be loving to do that, but that's obviously wrong.

01:42:24It wouldn't be loving to do that.

01:42:27I don't know where, is there, thou shalt not bear false witness and don't have people at

01:42:32your wedding who hate your wife and think she's immoral and selfish and mean or whatever

01:42:37other things she said.

01:42:40Loving is telling the truth.

01:42:42Loving is serving God.

01:42:43Loving is serving virtue.

01:42:44Loving is keeping the 10 commandments.

01:42:46You must love God and virtue, not crazy dysfunctional sisters who are trying to sabotage

01:42:52your life.

01:42:53And that's, no, and I, that's why I'm ashamed to think about that now back then, because

01:42:57that's, it's essentially what I grew up with and what I believed at the time, and it was

01:43:03messed up and what contributed to some problems.

01:43:05Okay, so why, what came between you and God?

01:43:08Because you have to know what the shadow is, right?

01:43:11There's something, because, you know, have, she said, she said that your marriage was

01:43:16the worst day of her life.

01:43:18Now that's, I've heard some ugly stuff over like doing these calls for like, I don't

01:43:22know, coming on for 20 years now, right?

01:43:24So I've heard some ugly stuff.

01:43:26I got to tell you, that's probably in the top five of ugly, ugly, ugly things that I've

01:43:33heard.

01:43:35And I've gone to some pretty seriously deep caves, and this is like 14 layers below that.

01:43:41Yeah.

01:43:42So the level of vitriol and hatred and contempt and ugliness there, it's off the charts, right?

01:43:52Yeah.

01:43:54Totally agree.

01:43:55So what came between you and your faith?

01:43:58What is eclipsing you and your faith?

01:44:01There's something, and this is virtue, right?

01:44:05At the time, I think it was family.

01:44:07Yeah.

01:44:07Okay, so how is your family coming between you and God?

01:44:10They raised you Christian, right?

01:44:12Yeah, I don't, that's the piece I don't know what the answer is.

01:44:16I just think it was, right, clearly it's family that's coming between me and God, but why?

01:44:23Okay, so you know that the biggest devil is the desire for appearance, right?

01:44:28Yeah.

01:44:29To have the appearance of virtue rather than actually being virtuous is the biggest temptation,

01:44:35right?

01:44:37I mean, the devil literally offers you the appearance of success when he takes your soul,

01:44:42I'll make you famous, beautiful, rich, popular, successful, talented,

01:44:47and everybody envies you, and they think you've got it made, and then you lose your soul, right?

01:44:53And of course, I'm not saying this is a direct reference, I'm just talking about a general

01:44:58principle, right?

01:44:59So the appearance, right?

01:45:01The appearance, right?

01:45:03Jesus obviously looked like he was losing everything, but he gained most of the world,

01:45:07right?

01:45:08So the appearance, is it the focus that, well,

01:45:12we don't want to have the appearance of conflict or problems?

01:45:20Yeah, and that's how I was, getting back to your question on the culture of families,

01:45:25that's how I was raised, and that's the mindset I had, I think, was

01:45:30appearance, and family must stick together, it's a phrase my mom always says, like,

01:45:35why can't we just fix our problems in our family?

01:45:36And people, there's lots of big issues, but...

01:45:40Family must stick together, okay, so let's say that that's a principle that you and your

01:45:44father agree on, that family must stick together, right?

01:45:48Okay, so what do you do with people who are attacking the family?

01:45:54Because, I mean, the grandmother, right?

01:45:58Oh, sorry, that was on the other side, but no, so with the sister, right?

01:46:01So what do you do with the sister?

01:46:03She's attacking, family must stick together,

01:46:05she's attacking you, so what, you then just suppress and say that...

01:46:09Because this is just, it's just fueling the bullying, it's like,

01:46:13why is your sister the way she is?

01:46:14Well, in part, because your family supports it, because she holds your reputation hostage,

01:46:20it could be an ugly scene at the wedding, she could be difficult, she might make things

01:46:24unpleasant, she might spill the beans, she might say things that are...

01:46:27Right, so she holds the entire reputation of the family hostage, and I'm telling you,

01:46:31brother and sister, you cannot be good if you're over-concerned with your reputation.

01:46:37Because otherwise, it's used to control you.

01:46:40We, I grew up by...

01:46:42Sorry, go ahead.

01:46:44I grew up with people within my family attacking each other, but the mindset was,

01:46:52family sticks together.

01:46:54So how did the two co-exist?

01:46:55What does that mean?

01:46:56Where's that in the Bible?

01:46:58No, I agree with you, it's just, that's what I was, the mindset, I think...

01:47:03But what does it mean?

01:47:07We, it's the appearance, family appears, probably, it appears to look like we're fine.

01:47:14Okay, so it's more important to look good than to be good.

01:47:19I think that is a good summary of my

01:47:25upbringing.

01:47:26Would you agree with that?

01:47:28Yes, I would.

01:47:30Yeah, I think that's probably a good way of summarizing the culture of my

01:47:36immediate family growing up.

01:47:38Right.

01:47:39So that means that you embolden and enable and empower bullies,

01:47:44and good people have to shrink into nothingness and ghostliness.

01:47:49It's the, you know, if you're afraid of people causing a scene, then those people

01:47:58will just threaten to cause a scene to get their way.

01:48:00If you're afraid of emotional discomfort or the family looking dysfunctional,

01:48:04then people just threaten to make a scene or cause a problem or embarrass you and you're,

01:48:08okay, okay, right?

01:48:09It's literally like parents with toddlers having tantrums, oh, here's the candy, okay, shush,

01:48:13no, it's okay, have the candy.

01:48:16Yeah.

01:48:17It's a culture of fear.

01:48:18It's like living under this shadow of emotional terrorism and having to obey

01:48:23the craziest people in the environment.

01:48:27My family, yeah.

01:48:28And we keep doing it every holiday.

01:48:31Yeah, so.

01:48:37And after all of this, okay, when did your sister say,

01:48:40sorry, Bob, when did your sister say your wedding was the worst day of her life?

01:48:48Um, a couple of years, a year, a couple of years after, I don't remember.

01:48:52Yeah, my instinct would say about a year after.

01:48:55Okay.

01:48:55It's probably been, yeah, somewhere there.

01:48:58So this is, that's just venomous, right?

01:48:59It's absolutely horrible and venomous.

01:49:01And to me, that would just be a total relationship ender.

01:49:04Like, I'm just like, good luck, kid.

01:49:06You know, that's just like, that's just so horrible, I couldn't.

01:49:09And it's not, it's not loving to continue a relationship when people do that, right?

01:49:16Loving is holding people accountable to virtue and holding them responsible for their lives.

01:49:21So what you're saying is that years after she said that your wedding was the worst

01:49:26day of her life, she's calling you up in tears because you didn't listen to her advice.

01:49:30And you're pouring time, effort and energy into this little witch.

01:49:36Because she had a breakup, which was entirely predictable.

01:49:39And you know why she broke up because she's pretty, she's pretty nasty, right?

01:49:43She's verbally abusive.

01:49:46Yeah.

01:49:46So even after she insulted the very foundation of your marriage and the love of your life

01:49:51and the happiest day of your life, you're still like, oh yeah, no, hey, whatever you

01:49:55need, I'm here for you, sis.

01:50:00Bro.

01:50:02Where are you?

01:50:02Yeah, that was the first couple of years.

01:50:04Yeah, I agree.

01:50:05And yeah, that's, yeah.

01:50:14Well, you, uh, you took a big giant dump on my wedding cake, but let me see what I

01:50:19can do to help you out.

01:50:20And you've never apologized or taken any responsibility for the hurt you caused me

01:50:24over the course of my dating and engagement and marriage.

01:50:29But I'm just here for you, sis.

01:50:31Let me help you.

01:50:36That was childhood.

01:50:38I was, I was, yeah, I guess my, my dad would come to me when, with his problems with my

01:50:45mom and then my mom would do the same.

01:50:48I'm sorry, at what age were you being dumped marital problems on?

01:50:53Um, probably starting for sure college.

01:51:00I don't know how much in high school, definitely in college a lot.

01:51:04Um, but I know still living at home in early college.

01:51:08Okay.

01:51:09But not as like a kid kid.

01:51:12Right.

01:51:13No, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm just checking.

01:51:16Yeah, I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember myself for like when it started.

01:51:18Um, cause they had issues for a while, but when did the actual,

01:51:27maybe late high school, but yeah, definitely late high school or early college.

01:51:31And then it just kind of continued from there for a while.

01:51:33It's reduced some.

01:51:37Oh, it's still going on.

01:51:40It's largely cause I have stopped.

01:51:48I I've, I've started telling them like, that's not my place.

01:51:54And my wife has helped me with that.

01:51:57Do you know that your sister referred to your wedding day as the worst day of her life?

01:52:03I don't know.

01:52:06So she just said it to you and you don't think she said it to them?

01:52:11That's she probably did say it to them.

01:52:13I would imagine.

01:52:13So yeah, I did not hear her tell them, but I did not tell them.

01:52:16But why wouldn't you tell your parents?

01:52:18I mean, they're coming to you with all their problems.

01:52:20Why wouldn't you come to them with this saying, this is a big problem.

01:52:25And this is a problem, by the way, mom and dad that come out of the woman you raised.

01:52:29So you fix it.

01:52:30Yeah.

01:52:30I don't.

01:52:32I don't really take problem.

01:52:32And my wife just said this to me.

01:52:34I don't really take problems to them.

01:52:35No, no, you're not taking your problem.

01:52:38You're identifying their problem.

01:52:40You raised a really nasty daughter.

01:52:42You need to fix this.

01:52:45Yeah.

01:52:45Right.

01:52:45You need to get her to apologize and you need to get her to shape up.

01:52:49And I don't know where she gets off thinking she can say this absolutely

01:52:52appalling stuff to people, but you got to fix this.

01:52:56You're the parents.

01:52:57It's your job.

01:52:57You raised her.

01:52:58You're the parents.

01:52:59It's your job.

01:53:00You raised her.

01:53:02So go to it.

01:53:05What would happen if you said that?

01:53:09My dad, he would see the problem, but probably not, not do anything about it.

01:53:23As in, he would know he, it's his life where he hasn't been able to do anything

01:53:31about it or hasn't done anything about things.

01:53:35Okay.

01:53:35But you enable that.

01:53:38Yeah.

01:53:39By withholding problems from him.

01:53:40So you're saying to him, dad, I don't have any faith that you can be a halfway decent parent.

01:53:46Because a halfway decent parent, A, would not raise a daughter like that.

01:53:49And B, the moment he caught whiff of something like that, he would absolutely sit down and

01:53:53have it all worked out one way or another.

01:53:59Yeah.

01:54:05Yeah, I fully agree.

01:54:07So, do you recognize how different a parent you need to be than your father?

01:54:16Yeah, for sure.

01:54:18And have you sat down ever with him and talked to him about the absence of

01:54:21parenting that you experienced?

01:54:23The absence of fatherhood?

01:54:27Yeah, I've sat down with him and talked to him about the absence of

01:54:31parenting that you experienced.

01:54:32The absence of fatherhood.

01:54:37I don't think so.

01:54:39I think you'd remember.

01:54:40Don't hedge me now, bro.

01:54:42I think you'd remember that conversation, wouldn't you?

01:54:46I've talked to him about how my sister felt, she did not have a father.

01:54:53I did not talk about myself.

01:54:55We've had it.

01:54:56Why not?

01:54:56Just not directly me.

01:54:58Why not?

01:55:00Yes, I should.

01:55:01It's the same thing where I don't.

01:55:03I don't.

01:55:04No, I'm not criticizing you.

01:55:06I'm genuinely curious.

01:55:07Why not?

01:55:10I mean, it's honest.

01:55:11I've never felt like I...

01:55:12Yeah, yeah.

01:55:13I've never felt like people would care about my problems, maybe.

01:55:23Maybe, maybe it's just like you're guessing, but it's your motivation,

01:55:26so only you can tell the truth about it.

01:55:28Yeah, I don't really know.

01:55:30I'm trying to...

01:55:31No, you do know.

01:55:32It may not be obvious to you, but you certainly know.

01:55:36Yeah.

01:55:42So why don't you talk to your mother or your father?

01:55:44I assume that your sister's probably kind of beyond hope at this point,

01:55:47but why wouldn't you talk to your mother and your father and say,

01:55:51I don't feel like I got much parenting?

01:55:53If that's...

01:55:53It sounds like that's what it was.

01:55:57Yeah.

01:55:58Um, I don't know.

01:56:07All right, let's turn to Alice.

01:56:09Alice, why does Bob not talk to his parents about deficiencies in their parenting?

01:56:15I mean, listen, you guys have kids.

01:56:17I assume that like me, if there's some issue with your parenting,

01:56:20you want your kids to say so, right?

01:56:23Yes.

01:56:25Okay, so why would you withhold that information from your parents

01:56:29when it's what you would most need to hear as a parent?

01:56:37I mean, it's uncomfortable.

01:56:39Yeah, so?

01:56:44His mom would always tell me, like, what a great baby and child my husband was.

01:56:51He never cried.

01:56:53He didn't need anything.

01:56:55That's kind of depressing.

01:57:00Yeah.

01:57:03Oh, he was just so easy.

01:57:06Yeah, he gave up on getting what he wants.

01:57:09And what about you, Alice?

01:57:10Have you had any conversations with your parents about issues or deficiencies?

01:57:17I have.

01:57:18And how did that go?

01:57:21Poorly.

01:57:22In what way?

01:57:24And then, like, it'll go, like, really horribly.

01:57:29And then there will be some type of,

01:57:33I'm sorry, commitment to do better, to try harder.

01:57:41And then?

01:57:43And then it just is the way it was before.

01:57:46That's mostly your mom, not your dad, right?

01:57:52It's both.

01:57:53I don't really have it with my dad so much, partly because he's an intimidating guy.

01:58:00Sorry, what do you mean?

01:58:03My dad.

01:58:06No, I know what you're talking about, but what do you mean by intimidating?

01:58:09Nobody really wants to go up to my dad and tell him what they don't like about him.

01:58:15Sorry, but what do you mean?

01:58:17Is he, he'll yell at you?

01:58:19He'll, like, is he a bully?

01:58:20What do you mean?

01:58:23He can definitely be aggressive.

01:58:26So he bullies his children?

01:58:29Yeah, he definitely did.

01:58:31Well, no, still does, if you're still afraid to talk to him.

01:58:39Yes, then, I guess, I guess I didn't.

01:58:43Because it's different, because it's, because I'm an adult.

01:58:47Yes, and it's physical.

01:58:49I didn't say physical.

01:58:50I said yell, intimidates, but he's still bullying if you can't talk to him.

01:58:57Yeah, that's.

01:58:59And what do you think would happen if you went up and say, you know, I've got a couple of issues

01:59:02with the parenting, you know, I'm, I didn't really think about them as much until I became a parent,

01:59:07but now I'm obviously parenting kind of differently.

01:59:09And, you know, there's some things that I'd like to talk about.

01:59:11And, you know, whatever.

01:59:14He shuts it down.

01:59:15Because you did, you tried.

01:59:17But then you just open it up again.

01:59:18And you say, Dad, I really, I don't want you to shut this down.

01:59:21I really do want to talk about this.

01:59:23Well, then it's.

01:59:28What was it?

01:59:35Then he gets like really depressed.

01:59:37And like, wow.

01:59:39Yeah.

01:59:39And then you say, Dad, Dad, hang on, snap out of it.

01:59:41I'm right here.

01:59:42Like, don't fall into yourself, right?

01:59:43This is about me.

01:59:44Don't make it about you.

01:59:46Right.

01:59:46I already had enough of that.

01:59:47Right.

01:59:47You make it about you.

01:59:48So focus on me.

01:59:49Come on.

01:59:49Look at, look at me in the eye.

01:59:50Take a deep breath.

01:59:51You'll be fine.

01:59:52It's not the end of the world.

01:59:53We just got a couple of criticisms here.

01:59:55So focus on me.

01:59:58I think it's stuff he can't come back from.

02:00:03There isn't any, there isn't any making it better.

02:00:06I think both of us think you can apologize.

02:00:11You can make restitution.

02:00:13You can get some therapy.

02:00:14You can like, there's tons of things you can do.

02:00:18That's true.

02:00:22I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have these conversations.

02:00:27I'm just saying that you need to know why you haven't.

02:00:32Yeah.

02:00:33Like I've started down them and then it's obviously a no-go zone with him completely,

02:00:39unless it's about my mom.

02:00:40And then, and then he'll entertain it to an extent.

02:00:43Oh, so he's fine if you complain about your mom, just not if you have any criticisms of him.

02:00:49Yes.

02:00:49And your mom, I assume, is the same way.

02:00:53Oh, yeah.

02:00:53Okay.

02:00:54So that's, that's pretty childish, right?

02:00:57Yes.

02:00:58Okay.

02:00:59So you have people in your life who oppose deeply and strongly and aggressively oppose

02:01:12honesty.

02:01:15Yes.

02:01:16Yeah.

02:01:17And they strongly, deeply and vehemently oppose listening to you.

02:01:24Yes.

02:01:25Both of us.

02:01:25Yeah.

02:01:26Yeah.

02:01:26No, you're absolutely right.

02:01:27Both of you, right?

02:01:29So what was the big complaint?

02:01:32Look at that full circle we've come.

02:01:34What was the big complaint at Taco Bell?

02:01:38You didn't listen.

02:01:40Yeah.

02:01:41Yeah.

02:01:43Are you aware that that's where it's coming from?

02:01:49Yes.

02:01:50Well, partially, partially not.

02:01:52I mean, this is all fleshed out.

02:01:53I didn't say recently.

02:01:54I think it, my wife gets triggered by that because she wasn't listened to or cared about.

02:02:00But I then should know that.

02:02:02No, but it's still now.

02:02:05Yeah, it is still now.

02:02:06You have opposite principles in your life, which is going to tear us all apart.

02:02:10I'm not kidding about that.

02:02:11That's serious stuff.

02:02:12This will tear us all apart.

02:02:16A man cannot love two monsters, right?

02:02:21So what are the opposing principles?

02:02:25It's loving family if they really oppose you talking and telling the truth.

02:02:29It's loving family if they don't listen and if you tell the truth, they get upset.

02:02:35And it's loving family if you listen to people and take their concerns seriously.

02:02:41You can't have both.

02:02:43Yeah.

02:02:44You cannot have both.

02:02:45If the principle of the family of origin lasts, then you can't listen to each other.

02:02:54Because the family of origin is defined as a loving, happy family and honesty is attacked.

02:03:01Honesty is attacked, scorned, rejected, and to some degree terrorized

02:03:05in that you would be terrified to bring this up, right?

02:03:07Yes.

02:03:08So, you have to have a principle.

02:03:10I've recently been bringing some things up.

02:03:13Yeah, I've recently been bringing some things up.

02:03:16More with my mom because I see her more.

02:03:19My dad's still working and not retired.

02:03:22No, come on, come on.

02:03:23That's not, I'm not, I'm not going with you at that level.

02:03:26You already told me you're frightened to tell your dad.

02:03:28Yeah.

02:03:29So let's not talk about him still working.

02:03:30Yeah.

02:03:31You can have on, and listen, you guys are working.

02:03:34I have a job.

02:03:35We're still having honest conversations.

02:03:36Honest conversations, right?

02:03:39It's not about working.

02:03:40Yes.

02:03:41No.

02:03:42It's about fear.

02:03:43And listen, I'm not saying you're wrong to be, I mean, I understand that.

02:03:46I sympathize.

02:03:46I really do.

02:03:48Yeah.

02:03:49But this is why, this is why-

02:03:50I think it's really-

02:03:51Sorry, go ahead.

02:03:53It's so painful though, like when they don't care because it's like it hurts them.

02:03:59Yeah, I don't care that it hurts them.

02:04:01They're the parents.

02:04:02It hurts you though.

02:04:03I care that it hurts you.

02:04:05And I care, I care that your children grow up with some kind of consistency.

02:04:12Yes.

02:04:13Because they're going to see these empty, avoidant, non-existent pretend relationships

02:04:19in your families of origin.

02:04:21They're going to be surrounded by it.

02:04:22They're going to be in there, even if the people aren't over that much.

02:04:27Yeah.

02:04:27It's in your head.

02:04:28It's in your mind.

02:04:29It's in your heart.

02:04:29It's in your soul.

02:04:35Yeah.

02:04:35And they're going to see-

02:04:37What do you do?

02:04:37Mom and dad have the expectation that we listen in this family,

02:04:42but they're embedded in extended families which do the exact opposite of listen,

02:04:47which is punish honesty.

02:04:50Yeah.

02:04:51Yeah.

02:04:51A man cannot serve, and a woman cannot serve, two masters.

02:04:56You have to make a choice.

02:04:58If it's totally fine for your parents to not listen to you,

02:05:02and your sisters and siblings and all, then you can't blame each other for not listening.

02:05:08Because it's confusing as heck, right?

02:05:11But if listening is a value, and you've got to listen,

02:05:14you have to be aware of the people who attack you for telling the truth.

02:05:17If you want to be honest with each other, you have to recognize the damage done

02:05:21by the people who attack you for telling the truth.

02:05:24I think we're surrounded by-

02:05:25Trying to serve two masters, and it's going to be a volatile, bumpy, difficult, unpleasant ride.

02:05:34Yeah.

02:05:35And it has been.

02:05:36Right.

02:05:37And there's a war.

02:05:39There's a war between the liars and the truth tellers.

02:05:44Between those who are direct, and those who punish directness.

02:05:47Between those who listen, and those who attack listening,

02:05:50and are hostile to the very active connection.

02:05:53There's a war.

02:05:54You've got an angel on one side saying, tell the truth, be honest, be direct, and listen.

02:05:58And you've got a devil on the other side saying, to heck with all of that.

02:06:01Avoidance and appearance is all that matters.

02:06:06I've literally been telling, I've told one of my complaints has been to my husband,

02:06:11that I struggle to connect with our kids emotionally.

02:06:15Sure.

02:06:15And it's painful to be connected to them.

02:06:19Because you have to reach through the icy ghosts of your parents' indifference.

02:06:23And your kids are on the other side of that.

02:06:26And it burns your arms.

02:06:27It scalds your arms with ice.

02:06:31I don't mean to get overly poetic, but if you haven't confronted the-

02:06:35I try really hard to do it anyway, but it's hard.

02:06:39It is.

02:06:40It doesn't feel like it should be this hard to connect with them when they want it and they need it.

02:06:47Right.

02:06:47But here's the thing.

02:06:49Do you know why you can't connect with them?

02:06:51Other than my silly poetry, right?

02:06:53Do you know why you can't connect with them?

02:06:57No, not fundamentally.

02:06:59Okay, I'll tell you why.

02:07:00And I'm absolutely certain of this, right?

02:07:03Doesn't mean I'm right.

02:07:04I'm just telling you I'm certain.

02:07:05The reason you can't connect with them is, okay,

02:07:08would it benefit your children for you to connect with them better?

02:07:13Absolutely.

02:07:13Okay.

02:07:14Would it benefit you to connect with your children better?

02:07:18Absolutely.

02:07:19Would it benefit you as a married couple to connect with each other better?

02:07:23A hundred percent.

02:07:25Okay.

02:07:25So much.

02:07:25So if you're not doing something that benefits everyone in the immediate environment,

02:07:30it must be to the negative of someone else.

02:07:35So who suffers if you genuinely connect with your children and each other?

02:07:41Our extended families.

02:07:42Yeah.

02:07:43And why?

02:07:44Started with my sister before we got married, right?

02:07:49And then just continue on.

02:07:50All my family members, the rest of yours.

02:07:53Yeah.

02:07:54So what happens if you genuinely connect with each other and you get through that ice war?

02:08:00What happens if you genuinely connect with your children?

02:08:02What happens to your relationship with your parents?

02:08:07Well, it's just hollow and awful.

02:08:12Well, you will finally realize everything they withheld from you.

02:08:18Once you give it to your children, this is why it's so hard to improve.

02:08:21Once you give everything in your heart to your children,

02:08:25you realize everything in your parents' heart that was withheld from you, and it hurts.

02:08:30And it makes you angry because it's actually fun and great and easy.

02:08:34I get mad at my parents because, I mean, you guys have heard, I'm sure shows with my daughter,

02:08:39like she's so much fun.

02:08:40We get along so well.

02:08:41We enjoy each other's company so much.

02:08:44And it's so easy and so enjoyable.

02:08:46And it's just like, why?

02:08:48Why overcomplicate things with all this distance and mess and deception and appearance and

02:08:53like just enjoy each other's company and do good.

02:08:57So once you realize how pleasant and easy and positive it is to genuinely connect with

02:09:02your children, there will be both anger and sorrow.

02:09:05Sorrow at everything that was missing from you.

02:09:07And it's avoiding that sorrow that has you avoid your children.

02:09:09But you don't have the, you don't have the right to avoid that sorrow.

02:09:14Like you have to just embrace it.

02:09:16You connect with your children.

02:09:17It will, it will, it will cost the illusion of connection with your parents.

02:09:23Because once you genuinely connect, once you genuinely connect with your children, you

02:09:28realize how little you're connected to others.

02:09:33And how ridiculous and shallow and nonsense and ridiculous it is to connect with your

02:09:38ridiculous and shallow and nonsense and who cares that stuff is.

02:09:41I mean, I hate to say it, but it is.

02:09:43It is a fact.

02:09:44Yeah.

02:09:46I'd have to let the illusion of what I wish we had.

02:09:51Right.

02:09:52And because you've chosen to have children, you owe them your whole hearts.

02:09:57Yes.

02:09:58No reservation.

02:09:59And if it makes you burst into tears, you know, mom's just got a bit of an old ache

02:10:05in her heart.

02:10:05Nothing to do with you.

02:10:07Right.

02:10:07It's fine.

02:10:09Yes.

02:10:10It's fine.

02:10:11Yes.

02:10:12You owe them your whole hearts and whatever has to be sacrificed in order to connect with

02:10:17each other and your children and God, by the way, whatever has to be sacrificed to connect

02:10:26with love, connection and virtue must be sacrificed.

02:10:31Because the alternative is just a massive net loss to humanity as a whole, to your

02:10:36marriage and to your innocent children who did not choose any of this and are relying

02:10:42upon you to break through that wall.

02:10:45We would have the same problems as we do if we don't.

02:10:49Well, yeah, I mean, they'll be better.

02:10:51Obviously, you're having these conversations and this is to your immense and enormous.

02:10:55I mean, I can't tell you guys how much I admire you for what it's worth.

02:10:59Like, I mean, the honor and the nobility of having this kind of conversation is

02:11:06a treasure of the ages.

02:11:08Honestly, it's a treasure of the universe to have this kind of conversation.

02:11:12So, your kids will be far better off than you were, but why not make them perfect?

02:11:18Why not leap?

02:11:20Why should it take five generations when it only has to take one?

02:11:24Yeah.

02:11:27So, we press on and we connect.

02:11:30And that means also connecting, you know, with the anger.

02:11:33Your sister has treated you abominably.

02:11:37Yeah.

02:11:37And you have every right to be angry at that.

02:11:40And the anger is what will keep you safe.

02:11:45Not from her, but just from people like that.

02:11:46And also, your just anger at those who do deep wrongs to you, your children need to see it.

02:11:57Because that's what will protect them from predators in the future.

02:12:01You know, the ball rocks need to see that none shall pass bridge thing, right?

02:12:07And your kids need to see that you don't sacrifice your integrity for the sake of the approval

02:12:15of people who are kind of bullies.

02:12:16You don't flinch before corruption.

02:12:19You don't appease.

02:12:20You don't, like, I mean, you make irrational compromises with the world because we all

02:12:23have to live in a place that does seem a little bit like hell from time to time.

02:12:27But you don't voluntarily sacrifice your integrity, your virtue, your connection and

02:12:32your love.

02:12:33And when you are connected with each other, everything is so easy in the family.

02:12:41Stuff like the Taco Bell thing doesn't come up because you're connected and you trust

02:12:47and you are not isolated, right?

02:12:50This kind of upset and resentment comes from a feeling of deep isolation.

02:12:54And a feeling of not being protected and a feeling of not being considered and a feeling

02:12:59of not being defended and that loyalty is missing.

02:13:01It's a kind of isolation that arises from neglect.

02:13:05And it seems to me that that was one of the main things that you both experienced as children.

02:13:08It was a kind of emotional neglect, the lack of connection.

02:13:12And so these things swell and grow because they hit these very deep wounds and cords

02:13:18of, oh, people don't care about me.

02:13:20Oh, my kids don't care about me.

02:13:22People don't care about me.

02:13:23Oh, my feelings never get taken into consideration.

02:13:26Oh, you know, and that's just a huge lack of trust.

02:13:29Sorry, go ahead.

02:13:31Yeah, yeah, we both had very emotionally disconnected mothers, for sure.

02:13:37Right, right, right, right.

02:13:39And so it's easy to feel that nobody's taking care of you emotionally because

02:13:45nobody took care of you emotionally.

02:13:48Yeah.

02:13:49I mean, that's not a fantasy, but it's not differentiated between past and present.

02:13:54And the only thing that differentiates the past and the present is virtue,

02:13:58is that commitment to virtue, connect with each other, right?

02:14:02So, and the real-time relationship stuff, right?

02:14:04That's why it's so powerful.

02:14:06If you're upset because you don't go to Taco Bell, you say,

02:14:10I feel upset that we didn't go to Taco Bell, as opposed to, well, you never listened to me.

02:14:13I'm not saying that's what you said, but some escalating language or whatever,

02:14:16just to kind of cover up the hurt.

02:14:18Yes.

02:14:19And I say, I feel hurt that we didn't go to Taco Bell, which doesn't make sense.

02:14:24My level of hurt doesn't match.

02:14:26I didn't get food.

02:14:27I only got food 15 minutes later, right?

02:14:29But I am really upset about it.

02:14:30I'm not saying it's your fault.

02:14:31I'm just saying that I am upset, and I don't know why, and I'm curious.

02:14:34What do you think, right?

02:14:35That's a connecting conversation, right?

02:14:37How could you not take me?

02:14:38I'm hungry, and you knew I was hungry.

02:14:40That's all an avoidant conversation.

02:14:43Wow.

02:14:45Yeah.

02:14:47You're just covering up the wound and lurching along, like you're not bleeding out.

02:14:52Yeah.

02:14:53Yeah.

02:14:54That's very helpful.

02:14:56All right.

02:14:57How are we doing?

02:14:58Are we someplace useful?

02:15:01I think so.

02:15:05Do you think we should start with connecting with our children, no matter how much it hurts?

02:15:13So, you know, I don't tell people what to do, right?

02:15:15That's true.

02:15:16Everyone tries.

02:15:17I do feel like we're kind of, like, drowning.

02:15:22Well, I mean, certainly your children are owed your whole heart.

02:15:27I mean, you owe that to your children by having them, right?

02:15:30Absolutely.

02:15:31I would certainly, you know, if your children are upsetting you, you say,

02:15:35I'm upset.

02:15:36It's not your fault, right?

02:15:37This is bothering me, but it's nothing to do with you, probably, or whatever it is, right?

02:15:40So just focus on that relentless honesty with people.

02:15:45Because you guys, and I understand this, I'm the same way, right?

02:15:48Like, we were so punished for honesty.

02:15:50It's like, hey, why don't you just stick your hand in that giant furnace, right?

02:15:54It feels like crazy.

02:15:56It feels almost suicidal to be honest and direct.

02:16:00But if you just work on the honesty and directness, that's the best way to banish these ghosts,

02:16:05I think.

02:16:05Yes.

02:16:07Yes.

02:16:08Well, I've been really trying to be more honest and direct.

02:16:13And I feel like life's gotten harder with my family in some ways,

02:16:16which has then been impacting our family.

02:16:19You're the more honest.

02:16:20Like, yeah.

02:16:23Well, you can't be honest and direct with your family,

02:16:26because they'll attack and punish and ostracize you for it, won't they?

02:16:31How do we do?

02:16:32Kind of.

02:16:33I think that's not a great question.

02:16:35Right now, my mom's at the point where she's like,

02:16:38I'm so sorry that you feel like I don't listen to you.

02:16:42And then she'll be like, oh, that's bad, I don't listen to you.

02:16:43No, no, that's not an apology.

02:16:45But yeah, then she'll self-correct it and she'll be like,

02:16:48oh, I'm sorry that I don't listen to you.

02:16:51Okay, so then she needs to tell you why she doesn't listen to you, right?

02:16:54So, you know, mom, your homework assignment is go figure out why,

02:16:58figure out what happened in your childhood, come back and talk to me.

02:17:00You could talk to this guy in Canada.

02:17:02He's not too bad at this kind of stuff, right?

02:17:03So, right, but she's got to then...

02:17:06If you thought our conversation had some terrifying things in it,

02:17:09you did not even want to go there.

02:17:12I never flinch from going there.

02:17:14It's a blessing and a curse.

02:17:16So, no, but she then owes you some understanding as to why.

02:17:22Because if she doesn't understand why she doesn't listen to you,

02:17:25how can she possibly commit to listening to you?

02:17:28Yeah.

02:17:29I mean, we just did two hours on Taco Bell.

02:17:32Yeah.

02:17:34Right? No, because why is this coming up?

02:17:37Because we need to go deep into the roots.

02:17:38And your mom says, well, I don't know how to do it.

02:17:41Well, then therapy is, you know, she's not even working.

02:17:44She's got time for therapy.

02:17:45She can work on that kind of stuff.

02:17:46She can do, you know, workbooks.

02:17:48There's tons of stuff she can do to try and dig into the roots of what the issues are.

02:17:52And, you know, your dad can do the same thing.

02:17:55And, you know, like your parents on Bob's side,

02:17:58your parents need to deal with the sister stuff.

02:18:00And, you know, I don't you'd say you don't have much of a relationship with your sister.

02:18:06I just telling you for myself,

02:18:09and maybe this is just because I'm a couple of decades older.

02:18:12I don't do pretend relationships.

02:18:15I don't.

02:18:16I don't do it like you get me or go somewhere else.

02:18:21Like I'm direct and honest, or I just don't do pretend relationships.

02:18:26Because to me, that's like stealing from the great gift of life.

02:18:30To pantomime, to mime, to pretend, to lie, to self-erase.

02:18:34You know, God has given us this great gift of existence.

02:18:36And to me, like, you know, how suicide is such a sin,

02:18:40because it's rejecting God's gift of existence.

02:18:42Well, so is lying.

02:18:43So is dishonesty.

02:18:44So is pretend relationships.

02:18:45You are denying God's great gift or the universe's great gift of existence to self-erase

02:18:51in order to conform with what?

02:18:52With nothing.

02:18:53With bullying.

02:18:53With emptiness.

02:18:54With avoidance.

02:18:56With rejection.

02:18:57With a lack of love.

02:18:59That's a sin, in my view.

02:19:02We've got this great gift of existence.

02:19:03We must use it to connect and be honest and fulfill the commandments.

02:19:10Thou shalt not bear false witness.

02:19:12Well, you were witnesses to your childhood.

02:19:14And you were witnesses to your parents' deficiencies.

02:19:16And you are withholding correction from them.

02:19:20It is a sin to withhold correction from people who've done wrong.

02:19:27Yeah, they fight it.

02:19:28So what?

02:19:28We all know that.

02:19:29Everybody fights correction from sin.

02:19:31That's human nature.

02:19:34But you're not doing anything loving by withholding the truth from those around you.

02:19:38Now, maybe they will get mad.

02:19:40Maybe they'll storm off.

02:19:41Maybe they'll storm off for a year or 10 years or forever.

02:19:45But joining them in their sin by falsifying your entire history does not make the world

02:19:55a better place.

02:19:56Not for your children.

02:19:57Not for your marriage.

02:19:57Not for the future.

02:20:03Yeah.

02:20:03Yep.

02:20:05All right.

02:20:05Will you guys keep me posted about how it's going?

02:20:08Yeah.

02:20:09Thank you very much.

02:20:10Will you take a big hug and a bow for the majesty of this conversation?

02:20:13I really do appreciate it.

02:20:14You guys did fantastically.

02:20:16Thank you.

02:20:17Thank you.

02:20:18You're very welcome.

02:20:19And keep me posted, all right?

02:20:21Definitely.

02:20:22Thank you for your time.

02:20:23Good night.

02:20:23Yep.

02:20:24Yep.

02:20:24Good night.

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