Freedomain FLASH Listener Q&A Livestream 10 September 2024
In this episode, I delve into the complexities of personal relationships, highlighting a listener's struggles with anger and postpartum depression. We discuss how early experiences shape current interactions and the vital role of empathy and curiosity in overcoming defensiveness and fostering connection.
I explore the challenges of parenting with emotional wounds, emphasizing the need for supportive bonds that counteract past traumas. We also examine broader themes of self-worth and the impact of trauma on identity. My goal is to guide the listener toward emotional healing and growth, underscoring the importance of introspection and empathy for healthier family dynamics.
GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND AUDIOBOOK!
https://peacefulparenting.com/
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
In this episode, I delve into the complexities of personal relationships, highlighting a listener's struggles with anger and postpartum depression. We discuss how early experiences shape current interactions and the vital role of empathy and curiosity in overcoming defensiveness and fostering connection.
I explore the challenges of parenting with emotional wounds, emphasizing the need for supportive bonds that counteract past traumas. We also examine broader themes of self-worth and the impact of trauma on identity. My goal is to guide the listener toward emotional healing and growth, underscoring the importance of introspection and empathy for healthier family dynamics.
GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND AUDIOBOOK!
https://peacefulparenting.com/
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00Yes, hello, good evening. Well, I...
00:05What can I tell you? I have some questions. I was going to answer them,
00:09figured I might as well get some feedback and thoughts from ye olde listeners,
00:14or ye younge listeners, as you want to be called.
00:18So this is from freedomain.locals.com, or Facebook, or whatever, I'm not sure exactly what.
00:23Hey, Steph, firstly, thank you for your work. I am a Locals donor and hope you can help.
00:28Well, for donors, well, I'll watch you shave everything. Watch me shave everything.
00:35Apologies for the long question. I tried to get my story as short as possible, but it's hard.
00:40Me and my wife called in over a year ago to help with our anger and defensiveness.
00:44We were expecting it at the time, and our son is now 11 months old.
00:48Massive congratulations. Born on a very glorious day on a glorious month
00:52that a man you know was born on. Hint, that's you.
00:5524th of September, a time when gods among men and women are created.
01:01We've made massive strides on our anger and defensiveness since the call,
01:05but lately we've been struggling with empathy towards each other again.
01:09This is not good for my son to be around, or good for my wife, or me.
01:17She's dealing with postpartum depression, and we are both dealing with lack of sleep
01:21as to be expected with a baby. We are not at the same level of aggression slash defensiveness as before,
01:27but we are still getting into heated and upsetting disagreements.
01:30We are dedicated to peaceful parenting, and our son is bright, happy, and loves to laugh and explore.
01:34As parents, we don't want to damage that development with our issues that had nothing to do with him.
01:40I often fall for the trap of attempting to manage my wife's emotions,
01:44as I get deeply hurt when I feel I'm going unhurt.
01:47That was my childhood experience, due to my mom's obsession with micromanaging
01:51and her inability to process emotions external to her.
01:55My mom would quite often have some big emotional upset over everyday things,
01:59like making the dinner, or God forbid I left my clothes lying around.
02:03My dad was very indifferent to much of family life, and he never felt emotionally present.
02:10He cheated on my mom when I was about eight, and was eventually caught when I was 13 with a divorce.
02:16Soon after, pretty bad stuff.
02:18Alongside all this, I was essentially raised by my family's live-in babysitter,
02:22and as my parents traveled to work constantly.
02:26On my wife's side, she will feel backed into a corner and silenced during our disagreements,
02:30hence her defensiveness.
02:32She can also feel a bit like I come at her with a thousand things all at once.
02:37Her childhood was not great, her dad was physically violent to her mom,
02:40and emotionally abusive to her.
02:45She also got abused emotionally from her mom.
02:47Given her histories, I understand her emotional reactions,
02:50and I know due to her current postpartum depression,
02:52it's me that needs to do more of the emotional heavy lifting, as she is in a very difficult place.
02:58For extra context, I did bring up my childhood with my parents, but...
03:03it was heated, and I unfortunately got angry during the conversation.
03:07I'm not sure why that's unfortunate, but it's what she said.
03:09I was bringing up the topic of my alcoholic uncle,
03:11and how his actions were evil, as he chose alcohol over his kids.
03:14My mom and dad shut me down in that convo, and I just lost it,
03:17and within seconds I was saying everything I'd wanted to say for years, but was too scared to.
03:23Good for you.
03:24After that day, I did continue talking, but was way more rational and calm.
03:28I tried to bridge the gap and laid out my emotions, but my parents wouldn't listen,
03:32and took little responsibility.
03:34Since then, I have not spoken with my parents.
03:36I'm sorry to hear that.
03:39My wife also had a difficult talk with her parents.
03:41She did get a rare, we are sorry.
03:43Her parents have been better behaved since, but my wife keeps her distance,
03:49but has said she doesn't want to cut them off entirely.
03:52They don't have a major role in her life anymore.
03:54I want to break this last bit of the cycle of anger and defense for my son, myself, and my wife.
03:58We have used RTR, the RTR bot, and it helps, but your advice would be much needed and welcome.
04:05Well, listen, detail is good.
04:07I appreciate your thoughts.
04:09I appreciate your comments.
04:10I, of course, massively appreciate your support.
04:15So, let's see what we can do.
04:18So, the opposite of abuse is curiosity.
04:26There's a sort of very specific reason why I put curiosity right at the center of my book,
04:31Real Time Relationships, and that is because curiosity says what is in you will not harm me.
04:39Curiosity says I want to learn more about you.
04:43I want to find out what makes you tick, and what is in you is not a threat to me, right?
04:51You don't poke a bear.
04:53In other words, but you can poke, in a sense, you can tickle a friend.
04:58I think that was the original title of the Billie Eilish song, Tickle a Friend.
05:02So, curiosity is very powerful.
05:05Now, why is your wife going through postpartum depression?
05:08Obviously, as an internet philosopher, I don't know.
05:13If I had to guess, from a completely amateur, non-medical, non-psychological standpoint,
05:18if I had to guess, the reason why I think a lot of people go through postpartum depression
05:23is because their body, deep down, remembers everything that was withheld from them as babies.
05:30We have sort of very strong memory and consciousness that goes down very deep into our brains,
05:35and I think that a lot of people, if they had neglected and abused,
05:41two sides of the same coin, neglected and abused infancies,
05:44what happens is when they hold the baby, and they become a parent,
05:50they remember because you want to provide everything that is wonderful and beautiful to your son,
05:56good for you, your baby, and what happens is, deep down, you get to recognize,
06:02you remember, and you re-feel all of the distance and absence,
06:05absence that was occurring over the course of your infancy.
06:11We don't consciously remember infancy, but I really believe there are sort of layers,
06:16like tree rings, sort of layers of what goes on in the body and how deep the loss goes.
06:22We are born to snuggle, we are born to be caressed, we are born for eye contact,
06:27we are born to receive smiles and joy.
06:31I mean, I remember when my daughter learned to stand on her crib, right?
06:37She learned to stand on her crib, and I would come in in the morning
06:40when I'd hear her sort of burbling and be up, and she'd just be up,
06:43and she'd, like, big smile and reach for me,
06:46and it was just an absolutely fantastic and beautiful way to start the day.
06:51And she has always known that I take enormous pleasure in her company,
06:58that I treasure my time with her, that I will always take her side,
07:05that I will never blame her for things as a child.
07:09As an adult, you know, maybe I'll give her some advice, I mean, as I do as a kid,
07:12but I can't blame her for anything foundational,
07:15because I was instrumental in creating her.
07:18Obviously, I chose to create her in who I chose to have a child with,
07:24my wonderful wife, and I chose to influence her and parent her in the way that I did.
07:33So, if you have that kind of infancy where you have the eye contact,
07:37you have the skin contact, you have the breastfeeding,
07:40people take deep delight in your presence,
07:42they look forward to seeing you over the course of the day.
07:47You know, like, I would sit there sometimes,
07:49if I was reading something or working on something,
07:51if I could work quietly, I would sit in the room with my daughter,
07:55and I would wait for her to wake up,
07:57because I wanted the fun sort of to begin,
08:00the energy to flow between us and all of that wonderful stuff.
08:05So, if you had parents, and this tends to daisy-chain or domino down through the generations,
08:13if you had parents who were not emotionally available for you,
08:17because of their own traumas and the fact that they hadn't dealt with them probably,
08:21then when you have a baby, all that was missing for you gets reopened.
08:36Those wounds that you don't even have words for,
08:39wounds that are pre-language can rarely be processed or solved with language.
08:47So, if you receive verbal abuse and somebody said,
08:50oh, you're lazy, you're bad, you're selfish, you're mean, you're whatever, right?
08:53Then these are words, and because they're language-based,
08:57you can challenge them and impose them on the grounds of language.
09:01But if the wounds are pre-verbal,
09:06then they have to be re-experienced in an emotional way, I believe,
09:11and you can't fight them with language.
09:14Wounds that are inflicted in isolation can't be solved in isolation.
09:19Wounds that are inflicted with verbal abuse can't be solved with verbal abuse.
09:23And wounds that are inflicted pre-verbal cannot be solved with language.
09:29They have to be solved with experience.
09:31And this is why, you know, if you had an infancy that was short of affection and joy
09:41and pleasure and skin contact and perhaps, then for me,
09:45things like, you know, massages and body work,
09:48I mean, I was very fortunate at the National Theatre School
09:51to do a lot of physical work, a lot of movement work,
09:55and that really helped sort of get that connection between the mind and the body
10:00re-established in a much better way.
10:05So, if your wife is going through a pre-verbal re-wounding
10:13because she is experiencing the difference between your commitment to your son
10:18and her parents' lack of commitment and lack of availability for her,
10:23people, I mean, I remember seeing this when I was working in a daycare, man.
10:29People can be incredibly petty towards babies.
10:33Like I just did a critique, I don't think it's out yet,
10:35but I did a critique a little while back about parents who gave up on this sort of
10:41very permissive parenting approach and said,
10:43I'm an authoritarian parent, and they said, you know,
10:46our kid was whining and complaining and slamming doors and rolling her eyes,
10:49like all of this contempt.
10:51It's really bad towards babies.
10:54It's really bad.
10:55Babies, to some people, and of course I'm not putting you guys in this category,
10:59but maybe others who raised you,
11:01babies can bring out some real devils in people.
11:04Babies can bring out some really cold cruelty because it's pre-verbal.
11:10The baby can't complain.
11:12The baby can't respond.
11:13The baby can't get away.
11:14The baby is so utterly dependent.
11:16And for a lot of people who have experienced, you know,
11:20brutal hierarchical power inflicted upon them,
11:23when they have a baby under their care, custody, and control,
11:26and again, I'm not putting you guys in this category,
11:28maybe it's your parents or something else,
11:30but when you have a baby in your control,
11:32the baby can't complain, can't say anything, is pre-verbal,
11:36can't get away, is utterly dependent, has no choice,
11:39you will have no more power over anyone else in your life
11:44than you have over a baby.
11:46And, you know, if you've not been around babies a lot,
11:49it's really hard to kind of process, because it's pre-verbal for us too, right?
11:52It's really hard to kind of process just how unbelievably dependent babies are,
11:57and, you know, they can't phone and complain.
12:00They can't describe to your spouse when your spouse comes home,
12:05oh, mommy did this, or daddy did that, right?
12:08So they're pre-verbal.
12:09So that level of power that people have over babies
12:15brings out a pretty devilish side in some really damaged and disturbed people.
12:20Again, not you guys, right?
12:22And so it may be that your wife has stumbled over
12:30an old graveyard of rampant cruelty.
12:34Obviously, just an amateur, ridiculous theory,
12:37so take it for what it's worth.
12:39But it could be that if your wife was seriously neglected or mistreated,
12:47people, when you are in the,
12:51and I'll give you a little example from the show,
12:53just so it's a little easier to follow,
12:55and I'm sorry, I don't mean to be so hard to follow,
12:59but it is, for me at least, this was hard to follow.
13:01It might be easier for you.
13:03But I'll give you sort of an example.
13:05When you want things from people, a lot of people handle it badly, right?
13:10So a lot of women who dress provocatively,
13:12or a lot of guys who sort of flash their wealth and so on,
13:15they're trying to provoke envy in people.
13:18I mean, you see this with the Tates a little bit.
13:20And sometimes even Kiffin Samuels would do this kind of stuff with,
13:23oh, I just got a woman engaged to a guy who's a multimillionaire lawyer
13:26in my private group.
13:27Oh, can I join the group?
13:29And I mean, there's nothing wrong with sales and marketing and so on.
13:33But when people can generate a desire or a want in you
13:40for something that they have,
13:42then you express that desire and want to them.
13:46There's like, now I got you, right?
13:48Now I got control of you.
13:50And you can see this.
13:52I mean, there was this sort of minor controversy
13:54which occasionally still erupts regarding me asking for donations, right?
13:59So when I ask for donations, I'm in a vulnerable position,
14:03freedomain.com slash donate,
14:05but I'm in a vulnerable position because I need the donations
14:08and want the donations and so on.
14:10And I'm in a vulnerable position,
14:15and how do people handle that power over me?
14:18Well, of course, some people will handle it well,
14:20and some people, it doesn't mean whether they donate or not,
14:22but they may be like, hey, you're providing service,
14:24you're providing value, but I'll donate when I can
14:26or I can't donate right now, and that's fine, right?
14:28There's no pursuit there.
14:29I know if people don't have a lot of money, enjoy the show,
14:32donate later on in life when things get better for you,
14:34and that's totally fine.
14:36But when I got a $2 donation years ago,
14:40and I posted and said, well, I don't mean to sound ungrateful,
14:42but because I had a negative experience with that $2 donation,
14:45so I'm expressing a preference.
14:48And when you express a preference, people are like,
14:50oh, he wants something.
14:53And there are some people, like it brings out a real devil in them
14:57when you want something from them
14:59because now they can dangle it, they have control, they have power,
15:04and it is tough, man.
15:06You know this in the world, right?
15:08You know, like the women who dress very attractive
15:10and then scorn the guys who come up to them, right?
15:12Or the guys who dress and drive the Bugattis and stuff like that
15:17and then just scorn the people who aren't them
15:20and then create this like, well, you want to be like me,
15:24and because you want to be like me, I can sell you stuff
15:27and generate in desire.
15:29Well, I want to be a top G or whatever nonsense goes on, right?
15:33So babies, of course, desperately need their parents.
15:38There's no greater need because even as a kid,
15:41you can find something to do, like you can go over to a friend's place
15:44and get food or whatever, right?
15:46But a baby, you just need, need, need from your parents all the time.
15:50And people experience that need in two ways.
15:54If you've got unprocessed infancy stuff,
15:56which means that you are badly treated as an infant,
15:58which is the worst, really, it's the worst thing around.
16:01So on the one hand, they feel the pain that they felt
16:07as an infant who needed things and didn't get, right?
16:10Was rejected or didn't get what they wanted.
16:13So they feel that pain.
16:15I really, really want my parents to come.
16:17I need my diaper changed. I'm hungry. I'm thirsty.
16:19I want to play. I'm bored. I'm uncomfortable. I'm gassy.
16:22I need someone to pat my back and get me to burp.
16:25Like you're just completely, absolutely, totally helpless, right?
16:29And so seeing that level of being around,
16:35that level of like all-consuming, voracious need that babies have,
16:41a lot of people will experience two things if they had a bad infancy.
16:45The first thing that they will experience is the sorrow and the loss, right?
16:51Sorrow and the loss of what was withheld from them as babies.
16:56The reaching and falling, right?
16:58Babies reach for people and sometimes they just fall into
17:00what feels like a bottomless pit if their needs aren't met.
17:02That's number one.
17:03And number two, they feel their parents' coldness
17:07at holding power over them and rejecting what the baby needs.
17:14So they feel both the great loss of what was withheld
17:17and they feel the great coldness of the people who withheld.
17:20And it's really, really difficult.
17:22So I hope that, I'm sure you do,
17:24but I hope that you have patience with that.
17:26Don't take it personally.
17:28Don't take it personally.
17:30Be there for your wife.
17:32And it could be good to dig out pictures of your wife as a baby
17:37and hold them up next to your son.
17:39And everything that you guys are beautifully providing to your son
17:43should have been provided to all of us
17:45and should have been provided to your wife.
17:47And if she can get in touch with both so many complex emotions
17:52as a baby when you are neglected or mistreated,
17:55you know, like significant proportions of parents hit babies.
18:01They hit babies.
18:02It's completely psychotic.
18:03It's absolutely evil beyond words.
18:05They hit babies.
18:07And so if you put the pictures and say,
18:12well, this is what I was deserved.
18:14This is what I deserved.
18:15All that complicated feelings, the sorrow at the loss,
18:17the grieving, the frustration, the anger, the anger.
18:22Babies get angry.
18:23Babies get an angry cry.
18:24Babies get angry because they get frustrated
18:26if their needs aren't taken care of,
18:27which is completely understandable and so on, right?
18:31So if you look at all of that, I think it's, you know,
18:35at least for me, it's fairly clear to see that sometimes
18:42you can't deal with these things.
18:44I mean, if you haven't spent time around babies.
18:46But sometimes you can't really experience the sorrow
18:52of a neglected or abused infancy until you have a baby.
18:55And I think that's what a lot of postpartum is.
18:57Again, obviously there's medical issues,
18:59which I can't speak to, hormonal issues.
19:01I don't know what psychological issues.
19:03I'm not a psychologist or a doctor or anything like that.
19:05But as far as the experience goes and the sorrow goes,
19:12I was, I mean, I was very lucky as a baby
19:15because I had an aunt who just really, really bonded with me.
19:20I was very lucky, unlike my brother who was not lucky at all.
19:23And so the body does remember.
19:29And when you hold that baby and you see that,
19:32those beautiful eyes, beautiful skin, that curiosity,
19:37that little pink mouth and the absolute vulnerability
19:40and dependence and attachment and need, need,
19:44babies need you.
19:45And how do people do with need?
19:46A lot of people, when they experience somebody
19:49is needing something from them, they dangle.
19:51They get a little cruel, a little cold,
19:53sometimes a little sadistic.
19:54Not everyone, obviously, but a lot of people.
19:57And when you see that baby's need and that helplessness
19:59and that dependence, the little baby within you,
20:02the little core in you, we all grow from this nothing,
20:05this little Pac-Man in the ultrasound.
20:07This little baby within you recognizes a sibling in spirit
20:12and all of the pre-verbal memories come back.
20:15And I think that has a lot to do with it.
20:17So hopefully that helps.
20:18Hopefully that helps.
20:21Yeah, body knows the score.
20:22That's Gabber Mate, right?
20:23Really, really good stuff.
20:24That's really good stuff.
20:25All right.
20:28If you were to use a person for sex, hypothetically,
20:32because the person who'd agree to that only agrees
20:34because of a damaged self-esteem, most likely from childhood trauma,
20:37is it a form of abuse?
20:42I mean, I'm going to assume that you're a bro here, right?
20:49So hopefully this makes some sense and is not too offensive to people.
20:54Listen, sometimes lovemaking is a beautiful, soul-connected thing,
20:58and sometimes it's just raw physical need, raw physical desire.
21:04So as a man, I wouldn't necessarily focus overly on –
21:12and this is true for men and women, right?
21:13So don't focus overly on the sort of hallmark sentimental union of souls
21:18staring deeply into each other's eyes.
21:19And there are times when it's wonderful and it's absolutely that,
21:22and that's most times.
21:23And there are times where you're just kind of horny, right?
21:27And hopefully you can get the other person to meet you in the middle,
21:31so to speak, right?
21:34So – oh, Van der Kolk?
21:37Body knows the score is Van der Kolk, thank you.
21:41So, I mean, that's not using a person for sex,
21:43but sometimes you sit down for a nice meal
21:47and sometimes you just grab a burrito on the run, so to speak, right?
21:51So obviously if you're lying about it, right,
21:55if you're saying to a woman, like some woman you meet,
21:58I really, really care about you, and one about that.
22:04The song One was about, I think, the guitarist's divorce.
22:07I think it was about his divorce.
22:09He ended up marrying one of the belly dancers from the Mysterious Ways tour
22:16or something like that.
22:17So if you're lying, if you're manipulating,
22:21and if the sex is like completely cold
22:23and you're just treating the person as a piece of meat,
22:26that's not great.
22:28And it's going to rob you of that, you know,
22:30real connection that makes sex loving, right?
22:34So, The Edge, yeah, yeah.
22:37The Edge, so funny.
22:39Bono Vox, good voice.
22:41The Edge, pretension pays.
22:43I don't know any other good musicians.
22:44All right.
22:45I need to ask you something that's quite significant.
22:47Are you still an atheist?
22:48Well, I answered that this morning.
22:50I answered that this morning.
22:54So that will get out in the next couple of days.
22:57So this is a long question, and it was a great question,
23:00and I really, really, really enjoyed the depth of the answer.
23:05So thank you, thank you, thank you for the long question.
23:08Okay, somebody else asks,
23:10Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
23:12Does this mean that humans are inherently evil?
23:14If so, where does the good exist?
23:18The quote is, if you can give good people power until they turn evil,
23:23it means that they were never good to begin with.
23:25Therefore, there is no good, no good people.
23:28Well, I'm asking this from an argument with an amoral person.
23:34Understanding the story of Jesus, does corruption seek power instead?
23:38Great streams, and you're the best.
23:40Well, I mean, I personally,
23:43don't want to make this sort of exclusively about me,
23:45but I personally reject and resist power over people.
23:49I don't want power over people.
23:51I don't tell listeners what to do.
23:53Well, maybe a little bit in private call-ins.
23:56Freedomain.com slash call-in.
23:58Freedomain.com slash call-in.
24:00Get yourself in the queue.
24:01It's an amazing experience,
24:03and we've got tons of testimonials about how amazing the private calls are.
24:06Reasonably priced, at least for now.
24:08Freedomain.com slash call.
24:11So yeah, I specifically resist power over people.
24:14I don't want people to do anything because I say it.
24:17I don't want people to copy me.
24:20I want them to be themselves and think for themselves,
24:22and that's the good stuff in life as a whole.
24:30And so, it's not that power corrupts people.
24:36It is that power is a great temptation for people,
24:40because we as a species,
24:42and I guess most species,
24:43but we in particular are very, very keen on getting more resources for less effort.
24:54We're very, very keen on getting more resources for less effort,
24:58and that efficiency is really, really good.
25:00It's why we prefer hunting to just waiting things to show up.
25:05It's why we prefer farming often to hunting.
25:08It's why we prefer fishing to hunting.
25:11It's why we have swords and slingshots and bows and all of this.
25:17And so, because we prefer to get more for less.
25:22And power is a great way to get resources from people.
25:29And there's always been this tension in history,
25:31in that the owners want slaves,
25:33but the more slaves they have,
25:35the more they get conquered by people who have fewer slaves.
25:38Fewer slaves down to virtually zero slaves with the Industrial Revolution creates modern wealth.
25:43So, the more slavery you have,
25:45the more it feels like you're going to win.
25:47For a little while you can,
25:48but then the cultures and civilizations that have less slavery tend to win over those that have more slavery.
25:56So, the North wins against the South in the American Civil War.
26:00The European nations are successful with regards to imperialism,
26:07because they have fewer slaves and they don't have a caste system,
26:11at least as harsh as, say, the ones in India and other places.
26:16So, power is something that we want, of course, right?
26:20Unless we're wise.
26:22But power destroys the productivity of our civilization as a whole.
26:28Because power demotivates, right?
26:30If you get to choose your life course,
26:32you will have more motivation than if somebody just assigns your life course to you.
26:35If somebody had told me,
26:36you have to do this, that, and the other,
26:38I'd be like, oh, really?
26:39Okay, so you just don't have that much energy.
26:41But if you get to choose your own life course,
26:43then you have a lot more energy in the pursuit of that life course, right?
26:48So, power will extract resources from people,
26:51but at the expense of their enthusiasm,
26:53at the expense of their joie de vivre,
26:55their entrepreneurial spirit, and so on.
26:57If you get a chance to define your own goals,
26:59that is much better.
27:01Which is why it's so terrible in schools,
27:02that you don't get to define your own goals,
27:05but you're just told what you have to do.
27:07So, power will transfer resources at the expense of the further creation of resources.
27:15So, power will, like, if you go and steal from a farmer,
27:18then you get the crops from the farmer,
27:20but the farmer doesn't have any particular incentive to get better at farming, right?
27:25So, it was when the land was really finally privatized in the enclosure movement,
27:28in sort of 18th century.
27:29I've got a whole novel about this.
27:30You can get it at JustPoorNovel.com.
27:32JustPoorNovel.com.
27:33You should really read that or listen to that.
27:36So, when you reduce the power that you have over people,
27:39in the short run, you reduce your income,
27:42but in the long run, you get much more.
27:45So, it's just having to understand that wisdom can be tough for people.
27:49So, no, people are not evil.
27:50There's just an efficiency metric.
27:52That's short-term gain, long-term pain.
27:56All right, let's see here.
27:59Let's check either timey.
28:01Oh, yeah, we got some time.
28:03Let me check the questions.
28:05Can infidelity be forgiven?
28:10Can infidelity be forgiven?
28:12Well, I would say that if there is,
28:19if restitution is made to the point where people are relatively okay with the infidelity,
28:24because infidelity has a lot of different metrics and characteristics to it, right?
28:28So, infidelity can mean having a second family,
28:33or it could mean having a sort of short-run emotional affair with someone, right?
28:45Now, if it's a second family, okay,
28:49how much restitution would it take for a wife to accept the man has a second family
28:53and be okay with it?
28:54That probably wouldn't happen.
28:55If somebody is in a marriage and then they start having more time and emotional affair with someone else,
29:01then what happens is that can be an indication that something is really not working in the family itself,
29:11that something's not working in the marriage itself.
29:14Now, what you can do, and the ideal behind apologies is you look back and you say,
29:18I'm glad that happened because I got to a better place because of it, right?
29:24So, I mean, there are people who say, you know, I had a health scare, man,
29:30and that health scare got me to lose weight.
29:34It got me to exercise.
29:36It got me to eat better.
29:38And so that health scare was like the best thing that ever happened to me.
29:42And there's people who say, with regards to, you know, hitting rock bottom in the realm of an addiction,
29:47they say, I hit rock bottom.
29:50I had nothing left.
29:52Face down in a ditch with my underwear over my head.
29:56It was the best thing that ever happened to me because that's where I had to be in order to bounce back up, right?
30:01So a bad thing, you want to extract the maximum good out of a negative thing, right?
30:06So I had, I don't know, 12 years ago or whatever, I had like cancer.
30:10And so, you know, I lost weight.
30:12I was fairly healthy before, but I lost some weight and I exercise even more now
30:16and make sure, like I don't do standing in front of a camera for two and a half hours at call-in shows.
30:21I do sort of brisk walking around.
30:23I think it's better for the call-in shows as a whole and certainly better for my health.
30:26So, you know, I make sure that I get my checkups regularly.
30:30I get blood work done, right?
30:32So hopefully that the cancer will have me live longer, right?
30:37So I won't look back and say, yay, but it's the maximum good I can get out of something like that.
30:42So an affair can, and again, there's a very big variability in the words,
30:49but an affair can lead to a better marriage.
30:53In the same way that a health scare can lead to better health and longevity, right?
30:58So it can be forgiven as long as you look back and you say,
31:03I'm glad that happened because look at what it brought me.
31:06Look at all of the wisdom and happiness and closeness it brought me.
31:10And that is really the maximum good I think that you can take out of those situations.
31:17Donations, of course, are welcome.
31:19If you like, freedomain.com slash donate to help out.
31:24How did I show, what is that on my face?
31:27You know, I'm at the age where like there's something weird on my face, right?
31:30And I'm like, no, that's okay.
31:32If I can pinch it off, that's good.
31:35If I can't pinch it off, what is that thing?
31:37Oh, I know what it is.
31:39I was working out earlier and I have these workout gloves because, you know,
31:43I'm doing a lot of sort of serrated stuff.
31:45I have these workout gloves and they're just falling apart.
31:48They're really terrible.
31:49So I think that's what it is, right?
31:50I've got something on my face like, ah, can I scratch it off?
31:53And your day is good or bad depending on whether that can happen or work.
31:58All right.
31:59Let's do, I see another question.
32:01Let me do that, right?
32:04Hi, Steph.
32:05What is the difference between wanting to give because you want to show love
32:09versus doing it because it's the right thing to do and what friends do?
32:13Context, my friends have a loving, nurturing mindset slash heart and love to give
32:18and be generous.
32:20I think I do things because I know I should and it's the right thing to do
32:24rather than having that innate desire to show love and generosity.
32:28How can one go from the latter to the former?
32:30Wanting to give out of love rather than because it's the right thing to do.
32:35Oh, I saw a switch.
32:36I mean, you would like to love helping people rather than just doing it out of an
32:40obligation, right?
32:43Well, I mean, some things we do just because they're the right thing to do, right?
32:46So there's this whole shopping cart test.
32:48I'm sure you've heard of it.
32:49You know, one of the tests of sort of social trust is, you know, you're alone,
32:55all alone at the end of the evening.
32:57You're alone in a parking lot and you take your groceries from the grocery
33:03store that's just closed or whatever.
33:04You go to your car.
33:07You empty your groceries into your car.
33:10Do you take the grocery cart back to the row of grocery carts, right?
33:15Sort of the question, right?
33:16Now, nobody, I don't think, I don't do that for the love of social trust.
33:22It's just like, you know, I do it for a mixture of things.
33:25I mean, I do think it's the right thing to do.
33:26I think there's an obligation.
33:28I think that when society sees people doing that kind of stuff, it's a little
33:31bit of the broken window stuff, right?
33:33But when society sees people doing that kind of stuff, I think it does raise
33:36other people's obligation and social trust as a whole.
33:39But also, I mean, a friend of mine many years ago, that was part of his job,
33:44was roaming around getting the shopping carts, right?
33:46And you have to pay for that guy, right?
33:49So it also, there's an economic benefit to returning the shopping carts,
33:56which is that your groceries will end up being cheaper over time.
33:59I mean, I remember, you know, my friends and I, of course, if we'd find a
34:02shopping cart somewhere, we'd like go down hills and ride it and all that
34:05kind of stuff.
34:06And I remember somebody telling me, it's like, it was like $800, you know,
34:10back in the 80s for like a shopping cart, right?
34:12Probably be a couple of grand now.
34:14But it's like, that's really, really expensive.
34:15And I was like, oh, well then that's why they can't afford to fix the
34:19wobbly wheels, right?
34:21So you're wanting to give because you want to show love versus doing it
34:29because it's the right thing to do and what friends do, right?
34:34Right.
34:35So I think you have to, that's a good question.
34:44Sorry, my mind is just going down all these avenues, you know, like,
34:48like lava coming, trying to go this way and trying to go that way,
34:51but they all get blocked.
34:52They all get blocked by great answers and oppositions.
34:58Because I mean, this is the question of Immanuel Kant, like,
35:01why do you do good things, right?
35:03If you take pleasure out of doing a good thing,
35:05you're doing the good thing for the pleasure,
35:07not for the thing itself, right?
35:10So I'm going to see,
35:11do you have wanting to give out of love rather than because it's the right
35:17thing to do?
35:23I mean, I very much love making my wife happy.
35:27I don't do it out of obligation because it's the right thing to do because
35:30she's so amazingly generous and kind and thoughtful that it is a great
35:37pleasure for me.
35:38Like she takes a coffee at three o'clock and like 2 57,
35:41I'm like, I get to get you a coffee.
35:43I sort of run up and jump to get her her coffee.
35:45Right.
35:46And that's like, if she gets her own coffee, I'm,
35:48I'm offended and I throw it out, throw the cup against the wall.
35:51I'm kidding.
35:52Of course I don't do that.
35:53But you know, I'm like, there's one thing that I do that helps you.
35:55Let me help.
35:56So if you're doing it out of obligation,
36:01it could be that you don't feel your friends have been generous enough with
36:03you or that maybe they're doing it out of obligation.
36:06So when you face,
36:08and there's only been a very,
36:10very small number of people over the course of my life who've just been
36:14wildly relentlessly generous and positive.
36:17Like it's a wild thing.
36:18And I was a bit, you know, grinchy, stingy hearted a little.
36:21I mean, for reasons that are somewhat understandable,
36:24but not entirely excusable.
36:26But when you meet someone who is just wildly generous and incredibly
36:33thoughtful and all of that, you meet someone like that.
36:37There's a little bit of a shock, like, is this a scam?
36:42What's going on?
36:44And then eventually, at least for me, it just, I mean,
36:47that level of just blazing generosity, it just, it melts your heart.
36:51And then you just want to provide back.
36:53So maybe that is the way.
36:55Another question that is sort of linked.
36:57There's part of me that is in denial to believe that I care about people and
37:00I am a good friend.
37:02I know my parents used to call me selfish and I used to think I was a
37:05monster and a terrible friend a couple of years ago.
37:09Me believing I'm selfish makes me think I'm not worthy of friendship and
37:14that I'm using them, using people, right?
37:20This may create guilt and the slave mentality.
37:24So I am less able to connect with them since I don't think I deserve it.
37:29What do you mean you don't think you deserve it?
37:31What kind of nonsense are you talking here?
37:33You just gave me the answer to this.
37:35God almighty, you've got to be kidding me.
37:40You've got to be kidding me.
37:43Okay, sorry.
37:45I just lose the right page.
37:46There we go.
37:47Okay.
37:48My parents used to call me selfish.
37:51I don't think I deserve it.
37:52You're going to have to pick a lane there, brother,
37:54because you cannot have both.
37:55I will not let you have both in any way, shape or form.
37:58So if your parents called you selfish and mean and undeserving and a loser,
38:02whatever horrible things they said to you,
38:07then don't say I don't think I deserve it.
38:11I had to conform to my parents trashing me.
38:13Otherwise, they would get worse, right?
38:19When my parents verbally abused me,
38:23if I turned around to them and said, okay, I'm your kid.
38:26You chose to make me and you're raising me.
38:28If I have bad moral characteristics, that's on you, kid.
38:31That's on you, mom and dad.
38:33That is not on me.
38:34And it's really, you want to know somebody who's really selfish and pathetic?
38:37It's someone who blames their kid for their own parenting.
38:40That is absolutely pathetic.
38:42I can't believe how embarrassing that is for you.
38:45And I can't believe that you would say to me, you're a kid,
38:48you would say to me with a straight face, you would say,
38:51oh, you're just mean and selfish.
38:53Like you had nothing to do with raising me.
38:55You had nothing to do with my infancy.
38:57Who I am has absolutely nothing to do.
38:59You're just some distant observer, like somebody who just stumbled into the art gallery
39:02and is judging the art while having nothing to do with holding the canvas
39:05or buying the paint or the paintbrush or anything.
39:08Pathetic.
39:10This is cringe.
39:12I can't believe that you would try and pull this nonsense on me.
39:15You, who I created from my flesh with the partner that I chose voluntarily,
39:21and I raised you and I instilled values and I instilled in morals,
39:24and I'm responsible for all of your environment and all of the people in your life
39:28and the school you go to.
39:29I'm responsible for everything.
39:30Everything you've been taught, everything you've learned is me.
39:34And you're just bad.
39:35I mean, mom, dad, that is really embarrassing to hear.
39:40You've got to be kidding me.
39:42The fact that you could say that with a straight face is testament
39:45to just what absolute losers you are.
39:50So if you were to say that, what would happen?
39:53Krakatoa, right?
39:54Vesuvius.
39:56Nagasaki.
39:57So, yeah, you had to be like, yeah, I guess I'm selfish, right,
40:00because otherwise they just escalate, you get abandoned.
40:02So kids who push back rationally against their parents didn't generally make it
40:06over the course of a revolution, so you have to shut up and not to some degree.
40:09And they might yell back or whatever, but you have to shut up and not.
40:12So your parents don't think you deserve it
40:15because your parents don't want quality people in your life
40:17because quality people will say, your parents are weird.
40:20I don't know why you hang out with them, right?
40:22Do you have any tips for extinguishing this belief that is still affecting
40:26my ability to connect since I still believe myself to be an incredibly selfish person,
40:30together but not caring about other people?
40:32Happy to send a donation as this is something really deeply rooted
40:36and I have no idea how to conquer and vanquish this belief.
40:42Okay, so your parents, if your parents were verbally abusive,
40:46I can guarantee you one fucking thing for sure.
40:49I can guarantee you one fucking thing for sure.
40:51Your parents' verbal abuse was in no way, shape or form at all, at all,
41:02rooted in any objective, moral evaluation of your character
41:08relative to any universal values whatsoever.
41:11So your parents don't have this wonderful ideal of selfless and noble
41:17and kind and wonderful and benevolent and loving.
41:21They don't have this platonic standard of ideals and then despite the fact
41:26that they have really been so wonderfully kind and generous
41:29and modeled all this behavior for you,
41:31that you just have mysteriously turned out to be mean and bad and selfish and wrong,
41:35they don't have that at all.
41:40There are assholes with verbal whipsaw tongues
41:43who put you down because they're sadists.
41:46Because they have power over you, they have control over you.
41:49You can't get away, so they just shit on you because you can't get away.
41:53Now, they'll say, well, there's some objective...
41:56The reason that they make you believe this is they make you believe it's a judgment.
42:00It's not a judgment. It's not a judgment at all.
42:05It's just you happen to be there, they happen to have power over you,
42:11so they can shit on you verbally, they can attack you, put you down,
42:14but it's got nothing to do, you know, wrong place, wrong time.
42:17You know, like there was this kid who got kidnapped by this pedophile
42:20and the pedophile kept him like for 10 years.
42:24And the pedophile would say regularly, it's like, hey, kid, don't blame yourself, man.
42:27You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not personal.
42:31It's not personal. They didn't judge you. They didn't evaluate you.
42:35They're not comparing you to some big ideal, wonderful standard.
42:38Nothing like that is occurring. Nothing like that is occurring.
42:43I mean, look, the people who verbally abuse me all over the Internet,
42:46this, that, and the other, right?
42:48Do you think that they have some objective, rational, moral standard of virtue
42:53and excellence and moral quality?
42:55And Aristotle's deep studying of the Nicomachean ethics and eudaimonia,
42:59the pursuit of excellence in moral categories is the best use of your
43:03spiritual time on this planet.
43:05And they have these lofty platonic ideals and I just don't, it's all bullshit.
43:09They're just like words are weapons, sharpen the knives,
43:11makes you wonder how the other half dies. That's all it is.
43:14They are just trying to figure out what hurts you the most.
43:18It's all they're trying to do.
43:19Verbal abuses, I just try, and they try all these different words.
43:23Oh, does the word mean hurt him that much?
43:26You know, that's a 6 out of 10, gets him a little bit,
43:28but he's not bleeding in the gums, right?
43:30So it's not that.
43:33What about the word asshole?
43:36Does that get him? No.
43:38White supremacist? No.
43:40White nationalist? No.
43:43Selfish? Ooh.
43:45Oh, hang on, hang on.
43:47Oh, that drew some blood.
43:49Yeah. Ooh.
43:50That's the good stuff.
43:52That's the good.
43:53Oh yes.
43:54The word selfish.
43:57That gets him.
43:58Why? Because you value not being selfish.
44:00So they're just trying all these different verbal combos to figure out
44:03what gets through, where the hole in your armor is.
44:06They're just like blind men feeling for the hole in the armor, right?
44:09So the reason that you were called selfish is because you care
44:17about being not selfish.
44:19And so it's not that they evaluated you as selfish relative
44:25to an ideal standard of selfless.
44:27Let's just say altruistic, whatever, selfless.
44:29They didn't evaluate you.
44:30In fact, they're just like, oh, he cares about being selfless.
44:33So when we call him selfish, that really hurts him.
44:37And because we're cruel bastards, we want to do that which hurts him the most.
44:41So you understand the verbal abuse that people shower upon you
44:46or inflict upon you, the verbal abuse that their tongues,
44:50spears skewer you with is a compliment.
44:55So you care about being generous, kind, and loving.
44:58So you were called selfish because that hurts you most
45:00because what you most want to do is this.
45:03So you have a yearning for altruism, so you're called selfish
45:06because it hurts you the most, right?
45:09I mean, I have a yearning for all the races to get along with facts,
45:11reason, and evidence, so calling me some bigot or racist
45:14or white supremacist is designed to hurt me the most because it goes
45:18against what it is that we can all get together with reason and evidence
45:21and have rational, helpful, and productive discussions
45:23about these issues.
45:26I want people to think for themselves, to reason for themselves,
45:30and I absolutely resist having power over people,
45:32so what do they call me? A cult leader, right?
45:34Because that's the opposite of what...
45:37Like the moment I said, if you have a goal, if you state a goal
45:40and you state a preference and you state a desire,
45:42so many people will just use that to grind your gears to,
45:46oh, there's a hole in the armor, oh, that hurts him the most, right?
45:50So people, by knowing what I value and treasure,
45:56people will call me the opposite, you know,
45:59they'll call me a Nazi even though my family suffered
46:03unbelievably badly under the Nazis in the war.
46:09My grandmother was killed under the Nazis,
46:11my relatives who were generally writers and poets
46:15were all chased over hell's half acre,
46:17my mother was probably abysmally treated by the Nazis
46:23and the Russians after the war.
46:25My Polish ancestors, you know, I talked about this
46:27in my documentary on Poland, which you should check out,
46:29freedomain.com slash documentaries,
46:31but, you know, the Nazis came in and slaughtered
46:34half the people in glasses, then the communists came in
46:36and slaughtered the other half of the people in glasses,
46:39and it was just monstrous, right?
46:41So, you know, calling me a Nazi is knowing my history
46:45and how much my family suffered under various
46:48totalitarian regimes of Nazism and communism.
46:51So it's not that people have judged me relative to any standard,
46:55they just, ah, this is what's going to hurt him the most
46:57based upon his stated goals.
46:59When you state goals implicitly or explicitly in society,
47:03some people will come to help you support those goals
47:06and some people will be like, oh, he's now revealed to us
47:10what will probably hurt him the most
47:12if we use these verbal abuse terms.
47:14That is actually kind of a compliment.
47:19It is a compliment to the virtue that you yearn for
47:22when people use your desire for virtue to try to harm you.
47:26So the fact that you want to be generous, kind, and loving
47:29in your actions towards others, they call you selfish
47:35because that's what hurts you the most.
47:37It is a compliment, it is not an insult.
47:39All right, I think it's debate time.
47:41I'm going to go, I might post a couple of things about it
47:44at freedomain.locals.com.
47:48That was an excellent one.
47:49Poland visit was inspired.
47:51Yes, yes, yes, I think so.
47:52I think it was a very good documentary.
47:54All right.
47:55Thanks, everyone.
47:56We'll see you tomorrow night.
47:57I really appreciate you dropping by tonight.
47:58If you're listening to this later and find this to be of value,
48:01freedomain.com slash donate to help out the show.
48:04You get the History of Philosophers series all this month.
48:07Lots of love.
48:08It's my birthday month, don't forget, too.
48:09Dropping a little kindness would be much appreciated.
48:12Take care, my friends.
48:13Have a lovely, lovely evening.
48:14I'll talk to you soon.
48:15Bye.