Self-Destructive Wife... Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

In this heartfelt conversation, I delve into the caller's poignant struggles within his marriage, focusing on his wife's aggression and mental health challenges. We explore the complexities of their relationship dynamics, past traumas, and the impact on their children. Through discussions on emotional detachment, forgiveness, and personal responsibility, I provide guidance on navigating through challenging family circumstances with empathy and understanding. Together, we address the importance of self-awareness, setting boundaries, and managing emotions amidst difficult situations, fostering a sense of resilience and compassion in relationships.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00Hey Steph, can you hear me? Uh, yes, you can hear me all right.

00:00:04All right. Are you both here? Uh, it's just me right now. Okay, no problem at all. No problem at all. So

00:00:10Gosh, sorry to hear about all that's going on. Uh,

00:00:13Break it down for me, brother. Sure. Would you like me to start by reading my email?

00:00:19Sure. Hello Steph. We've talked twice before and you've also spoken with my wife.

00:00:24Last time we've spoke you pointed out that due to

00:00:26Appeasing for much of our relationship in the early going. It's the general unhappiness that my wife and I are experiencing due to subsidy

00:00:34I've employed more assertiveness

00:00:36At your suggestion and found my wife a therapist in many ways

00:00:40Things have destabilized to the point where we can barely enjoy each other's company

00:00:43Both of our inner parents are in full force now

00:00:46Which has given way to me feeling extremely angry which has led to some fights between us

00:00:51One of these got physical with both of us shoving one another something

00:00:54I've never done before and feel disgusted about

00:00:58I'm angry all the time

00:01:00Working out does help some but without a methodology that we both adhere to

00:01:04Things devolve rather rapidly. I feel helpless and hopeless

00:01:09I haven't been dreaming much lately, which also concerns me

00:01:12I feel like both of our parents must be laughing at how things have turned out

00:01:16I want to improve our situation, but also feel angry that I always

00:01:20That I feel like I always have to be the one to take initiative in improving our situation

00:01:24As this leans back into my prior appeasement

00:01:27Sometimes I daydream of being alone. But since we have kids this is not an option

00:01:32I don't want to be violent, especially around our children

00:01:35This feels like an emergency

00:01:37I can use your clarity and always appreciate your time

00:01:41Yeah, i'm sorry to hear that remind me how old your kids again

00:01:45They're six months now they're twins six. Oh twins six months, right?

00:01:50Yeah, and uh, yeah, tell me

00:01:53What what led to the the pushing match

00:01:57Well

00:02:03I haven't been sleeping really well lately. Um

00:02:06I took a job recently and I worked nights. It's only three nights a week, but

00:02:11you know usually on my day off I sleep in a little bit just to kind of try to

00:02:15recover a little bit and

00:02:17oftentimes, you know, we're

00:02:20Rural cabin and my wife will be kind of in the cabin just sort of

00:02:26um

00:02:29Just yelling, um, not directly at the children but just yelling like how

00:02:34Bad things have gotten and how she regrets a lot of the things that she's done

00:02:39Sort of just gets into these repetitive loops where she just keeps repeating the same thing over and over again

00:02:44Which will wake me up from my sleep and then i'll go out there

00:02:47Try to manage the situation to

00:02:50No effect and then after experiencing this for weeks

00:02:54actually months

00:02:56You know, I I told her

00:02:58pretty curtly to stop

00:03:01Yelling in front of the kids, you know, the children are going to internalize this stuff

00:03:04they're starting to get really vocal and

00:03:07It really upsets me that you know, they're hearing a lot of this stuff

00:03:11and you know, she got in my face and

00:03:14Said she doesn't know what else she can do and you know, just kind of you know

00:03:17she's screaming at me and i'm you know, I start screaming at her and she shoves me and I

00:03:21shove her back and

00:03:23She went back a couple feet and you know, she just fell down on her butt, you know, I didn't injure her

00:03:29As soon as I did that I realized

00:03:31Like oh my god

00:03:34I can't believe I just did that. You know, she's she starts crying and I start crying and

00:03:39Yeah, well there hasn't been any more of that this was probably

00:03:46Probably a month ago or so maybe a little longer

00:03:49I wouldn't say things have improved

00:03:52it's just now it's just the

00:03:56Quick to shout quick to anger kind of stuff and i'm

00:04:01I'm very angry these days. I'm very angry at the way things have kind of turned out

00:04:05These days i'm very angry at the way things have kind of turned out i'm very angry that in many ways

00:04:11seems like we're kind of

00:04:12acting out to some degree some of the stuff that we saw in our own childhood and

00:04:17The thought of my children absorbing any of this and acting this out, you know when they have children or before that

00:04:24Sickens me and

00:04:27Yeah, and what do you hope to get out of the call with me?

00:04:35You

00:04:39Just some things that I must you know things that i'm not seeing clearly I suppose just

00:04:46Sorry, it seems like you're seeing some things really clearly

00:04:48I don't know if they're accurate or not, but it seems that you're saying well my wife keeps repeating these

00:04:53Statements about how she is unhappy and regrets everything she's done and so on and this goes on for weeks

00:04:59Or months until you lose your temper

00:05:05I mean that that's the causality as far as I understand it from your perspective

00:05:10Yeah, it seems to be the case it's i've thought about it some

00:05:16It seems that being more assertive has

00:05:20I've used that this in our last conversation that you know

00:05:23Something to the effect of you know, be prepared

00:05:26now that she doesn't maybe

00:05:28Respond well to your assertion, but obviously for the best and we've had some conversations relating relating to that and

00:05:35You know all she agrees in the moment, you know, then when I start to be a little more strong I get a lot of pushback

00:05:44So i'm still not sure what it is that I mean if it's if it's all her and she's just repeatedly

00:05:51Talking about how regretful she is of her life and this goes on for weeks or months

00:05:55I mean that would drive anybody crazy, right? So i'm not saying violent, but it would drive everybody it would push you

00:06:01you know

00:06:02It would push you pretty hard right push all your buttons pretty hard. So if she's making all the mistakes and you're just reacting to her

00:06:10meanness or cruelty or self-pity or whatever she's she's doing then

00:06:15I'm, not sure

00:06:17What I can do if if she's making all the mistakes and she's just angry because you're more assertive

00:06:22And then she's just bitter about her life as a whole

00:06:25then

00:06:27And you're not doing anything wrong

00:06:29Then i'm not sure what we

00:06:31What we would be talking about. I mean, I guess I could say grit your teeth and endure it or whatever, but

00:06:35Again, i'm sorry to sound dense and i'm sure i'm missing something, but i'm not sure what I would

00:06:40What advice I would give or what I would say if that makes sense

00:06:45No, that makes perfect sense

00:06:55Surely in these in these, you know in these terse moments, uh, I guess it's just

00:07:02I mean nothing you said here should have anyone crazy yet

00:07:05Well, why don't you tell me what I mean? You've heard these statements for months about how

00:07:10She regrets everything and how whatever I mean, but i'm not sure exactly

00:07:13So what you know, give me give me the speech you've been hearing for a couple of months. What does she say?

00:07:19Sure

00:07:25If only after the twins were born I just

00:07:28Listened to some of the things my therapist was saying and some of the things that I had learned from

00:07:34Stefan molyneux and you know some you know, daniel brandon

00:07:37If only I did that this wouldn't be so bad. If only I wasn't suicidal

00:07:41This would have been so bad. If only I you know, never called my mom a couple months ago

00:07:45This wouldn't be so bad. If only

00:07:48You know it goes on and on but those are like the main things that she kind of

00:07:52Constantly refrains to if only she had listened to you and some other authors

00:07:56If only she never called her mom and if only she had not been

00:08:00Suicidal after our children were born things would be a lot better

00:08:04Yeah, I mean that's kind of tautological, right?

00:08:06I mean if only I hadn't been suicidal things would be a lot better. It's like well

00:08:10Yeah, I mean by definition that would be the case

00:08:13and so

00:08:14Sorry, if we had talked about this, I know we talked in march, but what was it that uh,

00:08:19Uh, did she talk to her mom after

00:08:23We talked or was it some other time

00:08:28Um

00:08:30Yeah, so so we you know last time me and you spoke was in march she had

00:08:34Yeah, she had reached out to her mother maybe like a week or two before me and you had spoke

00:08:39and had asked her

00:08:41something to the effect of like

00:08:43mom, i'm having a

00:08:45Bit of a break. I need to know that I have a safe place to land

00:08:49In case things don't work out, you know with my husband and kids

00:08:53and

00:08:54We thought this was a big break in the trust and a big betrayal and we had some conversations related to that

00:09:00Okay, so your wife has regret about contacting her mother

00:09:04Right and what is her regret

00:09:09He thinks she she says that if I had not called my mother

00:09:14You know, I wouldn't be acting as crazy as i'm acting by calling my mother

00:09:19I'm, sorry. You're sorry. She's referring to herself

00:09:22So your wife says that I as in your wife would not be acting as crazy, right?

00:09:28Yes, okay

00:09:31So

00:09:33Did she then sort of resolve to not call her mother again if calling her mother made her crazy?

00:09:39Yes, she would not call her mother and she

00:09:42You know, she claims and she and I believe her that she's never going to call her again

00:09:45Okay, so I mean if calling her mother made her crazy and then she's realized that and she's not going to call her mother again

00:09:53Then she's solved the problem

00:09:55that she didn't

00:09:56I mean, she she has to call the mother because she thought there'd be a positive outcome

00:09:59And if there was a negative outcome, then she's learned something and solved her her problem, right?

00:10:04I mean, she's not going to call her mother, right?

00:10:07And i've said as much to her. No, i'm sure you have so what's what's her response to that?

00:10:12Well, now I you know, well, I just wish I never called her because I feel terrible

00:10:20Well, but and then she's she doesn't feel terrible because she called her mother

00:10:26That's not causal

00:10:28Because like I mean you feel terrible if somebody pounds your hand with a rock that's common to everyone

00:10:32I guess maybe unless you're some kind of

00:10:35masochist, right?

00:10:37Masochist, right?

00:10:40So she doesn't feel terrible because she calls her mom, right? I mean, that's not causal. That's not logical

00:10:46She feels terrible because of some thought she has in her head, right?

00:10:49It's not an objective thing

00:10:52You know, my my daughter calls her mom my wife my daughter calls her mom, but she doesn't feel terrible

00:10:58Right, so it's not it's not because she calls her mom. I mean, you know that right? It's it's some other thought

00:11:04She has about it all

00:11:05So what's the thought that she has about calling her mom that makes her feel terrible?

00:11:16I'm after this and she said that

00:11:20It was like a grave betrayal of the family

00:11:24And okay, so there's no way so let's say she did this grave betrayal of the family

00:11:28And then she learned that it was a bad idea and she won't do it again, right?

00:11:32Right

00:11:34So are you grinding her about this? Are you grinding her gears about this?

00:11:37Are you telling her what a grave betrayal it was?

00:11:39Are you the voice in her head that's making her feel terrible or is it something else?

00:11:44I

00:11:45I mean

00:11:47I can't I how i've responded every single time that she brought this up is I tell her pretty honestly like

00:11:54I'm not bringing this stuff up. I don't talk about your mom with you or i'm not

00:11:59You know

00:12:01Okay, so you're handling it you're handling it. Well, right i'm i'm obviously gonna I

00:12:06I don't have any other source of information. So i'm not gonna doubt you

00:12:09So you're handling it well, and that's not your perspective. You don't consider it a grave betrayal

00:12:14I mean it was a lesson learned, you know

00:12:15Sometimes you have to stick the fork in the socket to to learn not to stick the fork in the socket

00:12:19And I guess she learned that with her mother

00:12:22Yeah, okay. Oh, I see it. Okay, so so

00:12:26If if it's not coming from you

00:12:28Then what what is the thought?

00:12:31That does she think that like she's a piece of trash because she did this

00:12:35grave betrayal or something

00:12:37Yeah, that seems to be the case, okay, so does she feel that the grave betrayal is causing you to suffer

00:12:47Is that is it guilt about causing you to suffer

00:12:51It seems to be more it's causing her to suffer but why why is it causing her to suffer

00:12:56What's the thought that she has in her head that is causing her to suffer? I know

00:13:03That she didn't meet her the whatever sort of expectations she had about being a mother I think

00:13:09Okay, I don't know what that means. I mean did she did she betray the six-year-old?

00:13:14Sorry, did she did did she betray the six-month-old kids? I mean they don't even know what's going on

00:13:19And I and she'll and it's interesting that you say that because she'll start saying that like I feel like i've also betrayed the kids

00:13:25by

00:13:26Trying my mom. I'm like they they don't know any of this don't you know, they've never met her

00:13:30They're never gonna meet her. Okay, but that's all this is also foundationally ridiculous. I'm sorry to be annoying, right?

00:13:37Yeah, but I mean

00:13:38her

00:13:39lacerating herself is a bigger betrayal of the family than

00:13:44Calling her mom right

00:13:46Calling her mom is like a 5 or 10 or 20 minute thing that's been going on as you say for months, right?

00:13:51Yeah, so this is like her self-attacking for calling her mother is

00:13:56Causing more suffering to the family

00:13:59Than this big betrayal thing, right?

00:14:03Bravely more and I pointed this out as well

00:14:05Okay

00:14:05so again

00:14:06If you're handling it perfectly then I don't know why we're talking like why are you and I talking and you i'm not talking with your

00:14:11wife

00:14:16Because if you're handling it perfectly then I I don't have any advice for you, right

00:14:21Right

00:14:23If you're a if you're a perfectly healthy weight and you call the nutritionist, they're gonna say well, yeah, but my wife is obese

00:14:28It's like well, then I should talk to her, right?

00:14:33Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't say i'm you know

00:14:37Getting physical would

00:14:39Wouldn't wouldn't be handling things perfectly, but you were you said she pushed you and you pushed her back. So, you know

00:14:45I mean it was to some degree

00:14:47It was a responsive action which doesn't make it ideal but you're not clocking her out of nowhere, right

00:14:55Right so

00:14:59So if there's if there's nothing for you to do to improve then i'm not sure what advice I can give you

00:15:13I guess I just felt like there has to be something I can do to improve

00:15:17But if the problem it's all coming from your wife, which is what you're telling me then

00:15:23How how can you improve?

00:15:29I don't know because we're even doing group therapy and we have a therapist, you know helping, you know, bring us through all this and

00:15:39Okay, so

00:15:43You're doing everything right and and

00:15:45So again, i'm i'm not sure what advice to give you

00:15:49I mean we can talk about your anger if you like, but I mean I can understand the anger

00:15:53It's kind of frustration at her continuing to self-attack months after

00:15:56She calls her mom, right? Is that the basic issue?

00:16:00That is the basic issue, okay

00:16:02so

00:16:04I mean if you're not doing anything wrong and and I can understand the anger, I mean we can talk about the anger

00:16:08but if the basic behavior of self-attack on the part of your wife is still continuing then

00:16:15Well, I mean I could we talk about I mean do you want to talk about anger management strategies or

00:16:21What what do you want to talk about?

00:16:25Yeah, I suppose like you're thinking on your question I suppose anger management strategies and or

00:16:31I guess at this point i'm just trying to do a little bit of um

00:16:35damage control with the children and

00:16:38What's what's the best thing I can do? I know you can't tell me what to do. But like what?

00:16:43Makes the most sense

00:16:45For them

00:16:47Like, you know, what what would be the best thing I could possibly do for them at this point?

00:16:51If this is more or less kind of all

00:16:56I can expect

00:16:59And

00:17:00Are you I mean i've given you a couple of outs here now and I I just want to be up front

00:17:05Are you genuinely sure that you're doing everything just right?

00:17:08I mean you're talking about how to improve upon a difficult situation

00:17:13Yeah, are you convinced in your conscience that you're doing everything just right

00:17:20Because that would be an amazing thing given the dysfunction that you've had in your marriage, you know, I

00:17:25No, i'm not convinced. So why are you telling me that you're doing everything just right?

00:17:31Well, there's something I think i'm missing

00:17:33Well, there's something I think i'm missing

00:17:36I'm, no, no, no, you're that's not what you're telling me. You're telling me

00:17:40That you're doing everything just right

00:17:45Right, I mean you can listen back to this

00:17:48After the recording like you can listen back and and i'm doing this just right and my wife is the problem and i'm doing

00:17:54I'm handling this right and I couldn't do any better with that and right that's that's what's going on, right?

00:18:00That's what you're telling me if that was the

00:18:03Right, but if that was the case, then surely things couldn't be this bad

00:18:08Well, then and then you'd have the you know, not insubstantial challenge

00:18:13of explaining

00:18:16How you married a crazy woman when you're wonderful in everything you do

00:18:26Well in our

00:18:27In our last, you know conversation, you know, you you had pointed out that in the early

00:18:33Beginnings I had been very

00:18:36appeasing

00:18:37um, which is

00:18:39kind of

00:18:40so the ground

00:18:43You know, I

00:18:44Whenever, you know, she would get aggressive. I would just sort of not the sort of I would you know capitulate often

00:18:52This went on for

00:18:54for years

00:18:55So in many ways I imagined a lot of you know, this course correction stuff i'm doing

00:19:01It's you know

00:19:03Goes back to the you know ounce of prevention being better than pound of carrot thing

00:19:06I find myself just kind of coming up against I imagine a lot of resentment maybe not having

00:19:12you know

00:19:13Not a piece or sooner

00:19:15Make that make sense

00:19:16Sorry, the the resentment is it within you?

00:19:19for

00:19:21Sorry, it's the resentment within you or within your wife

00:19:23Yeah

00:19:27I'd say both of us, you know, I can definitely I feel like i'm definitely brushing against resentment with her and these like, you know

00:19:35Conversations i'm having there even just putting her in therapy. It's almost like there's like this underlying thing going on where it's like

00:19:40Like why are you you know?

00:19:42Why did it take you so long to stop the peasing econ thing?

00:19:46Sorry, she's angry because you appeased her

00:19:51In the past yes, okay

00:19:53Okay

00:19:55So

00:19:58She's not saying i'm sorry I was a bully she's saying i'm angry at you for letting me bully you

00:20:06That's right, okay

00:20:09So has she apologized for being a bully

00:20:13No, she's not okay, so again you're doing everything perfectly and she's the one at fault

00:20:19I don't know if you stop if you stop if you stop appeasing someone and they just get angry at you

00:20:26Because you were appeasing them in the past without recognizing

00:20:31That they bullied you and that that was you know, and that they picked you to appease them, right

00:20:35I mean if if she's she picked you because you appeased her and that's what she wanted or that's what her

00:20:40You know parents wanted or whatever, right? So she picked you

00:20:44For

00:20:45Appeasing her and then it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to get angry at you

00:20:49For doing exactly what she picked you to do, right?

00:20:52That's like be me hiring a doctor and then getting really angry that he's a doctor

00:21:00It's logical that makes perfect sense

00:21:03And you hired her. Oh, sorry you I guess right you

00:21:07You you married her to bully you, right?

00:21:09I mean, is that is that way off the mark?

00:21:11I mean because that's what you were used to and Simon the boxer and repetition compulsion

00:21:16That's not way off the mark. That's yeah, that's right. I mean, that's just the you know, the tragic

00:21:21History repeating itself stuff that that we all understand

00:21:27So

00:21:29If you picked her because she was aggressive

00:21:33Then

00:21:34Why are you shocked that she's or why are you upset that she's aggressive?

00:21:39You

00:21:52I mean how long have you sorry just remind me how long have you guys been together?

00:21:57Um

00:21:59Married for going on two years

00:22:01Together about six years altogether about six years. And when did you first notice that she was aggressive?

00:22:09Um

00:22:12It had to have been year one

00:22:14Had to be year one. Okay, probably within the first

00:22:17Few months I imagine the first time. I'm sorry the first

00:22:22Probably for six months

00:22:24So for the first six months until she became aggressive. She was sweet as sugar and pleasant and compliant and there were no problems

00:22:33And then

00:22:35Go ahead. No you go ahead

00:22:38I was just gonna say she had recently gotten on. I mean, that's super recent, but she had

00:22:43Recently gotten on antidepressants. So I think

00:22:46A lot of that, you know feel good

00:22:49Happy stuff. I think a lot of that was just like the serotonin she was getting from her medication

00:22:54well, yeah, I mean I I

00:22:56My understanding is they can't find any link between serotonin and depression. So I I don't know that they're happy happy joy pills or anything like that

00:23:04But so she showed no signs of aggression for the first six months

00:23:08You

00:23:13Not that I can not that I can remember it right at the top of my hand right now

00:23:18um

00:23:20it was like a lot of just

00:23:22like jovial laughing

00:23:26Instrument playing joke telling movie watching. We didn't I didn't

00:23:31It really wasn't until I started like really

00:23:33You know probing about some of the parental stuff and her childhood is when things started to you know escalate a little bit

00:23:40So what do you mean by escalate a little bit?

00:23:46Well at that point, you know

00:23:48very christian and she had you know, she had told me to some degree that she had forgiven her father for

00:23:55all the abuses he had

00:23:56inflicted upon her and her sisters and

00:23:59you know, I probed and I

00:24:01you know, I

00:24:03I wasn't honestly I probably was pretty

00:24:06Brutish about it at that time compared to now, but I essentially just said like, you know

00:24:09I don't know if that's actual forgiveness, you know, you can't like will yourself to forgive, you know someone who's

00:24:15You know caused you like a physical and mental damage

00:24:18I don't know if it's a great idea for you to you know to see this person

00:24:22Just things like that and she like kind of lashed out at me

00:24:25That was like the first time I actually saw some real aggression from her. I remember us actually

00:24:29I think it was around like christmas time or something and us being like watching christmas lights in a car and

00:24:34we kind of like talking about how

00:24:36I just don't think that it could be true that

00:24:38She had this real coming to jesus moment to forgive her father because you know, he's he's a monster

00:24:45She got remember I don't remember what she said it was something like essentially like how dare you like try to

00:24:51Say that how dare you undermine this religious experience I had or wow something to that effect so she could forgive her father

00:24:57But not you

00:25:00Right, so she could forgive her father who brutalized her but not you

00:25:05Who questioned this sentimental forgiveness?

00:25:11Yeah, okay

00:25:13And I never she wouldn't get angry at you

00:25:15Sorry, she wouldn't get angry at her father, but she'd get angry at you. So

00:25:18She's not really that much into forgiveness, right?

00:25:21And also if she's so much into forgiveness, why doesn't she forgive herself for calling her mother?

00:25:29You know all the you know to be frank during this whole situation all the

00:25:35Fake christianity stuff that she had, you know imbibed or you know regurgitated. It's all out the window. There's no

00:25:42There's no tent commitments

00:25:44There's no tent commitments anything going on here, but here's no submission to the husband, right?

00:25:52No, none of that's going on

00:25:56Okay

00:25:58So, uh, and i'm sorry if we talked about this before but just to refresh me

00:26:02So when she lashed out at you for questioning this fake forgiveness and it does seem like it was fake forgiveness and it certainly was

00:26:09Right. So if somebody's really into forgiveness and they say well I forgive

00:26:13My father who brutalized me as a child and then you say well i'm not sure that's real forgiveness or

00:26:19that they would say well I

00:26:21I'm upset by your question, but I forgive you for asking it like they would really be committed to forgiveness, right?

00:26:27Right, okay, so she lashes out at you, uh aggressively, right?

00:26:33And i'm just remind me why aggressive yeah, why did you continue

00:26:43You

00:26:51I thought I could you know, I thought I could

00:26:55Since she would you know

00:26:56Claiming to be christian. I wasn't christian at that time mind you, you know

00:26:59I I'd known enough about christianity to know that there's some brickless and seemed to be some

00:27:04Some virtues in it. I kind of figured this was a person I could work with over time, you know, and

00:27:10You know, maybe slowly chip away at some of rice wall

00:27:13No, but why would you even want to and you'd say like sorry?

00:27:16Why why would why wouldn't you just choose someone who wasn't aggressive?

00:27:19And is she abusive when she's aggressive? I think she is, right?

00:27:25Sorry is she

00:27:28She is okay to answer your question, I you know, I'm not like it wasn't you know, I I dated

00:27:34In a state where I was in the process of sorting myself out

00:27:36But I should have just sorted myself out before dating doesn't answer the question saying I was messed up doesn't say

00:27:43I mean you could have been so messed up that you would have just dumped her at the first sign of trouble, right?

00:27:46But you chose to dig in and keep going and then years later you gave her babies, right?

00:27:53So just remind me to understand i'm sure we talked about this before but why keep going when she's lashing out at you

00:28:00Yeah

00:28:04But what's the plus was she super pretty was like what what's what's the plus for you

00:28:11She was pretty and she was

00:28:13She was you know, I know it's funny because I just told you of like this lashing out thing

00:28:17but she was generally pretty sweet on me and

00:28:22Sing songs to me and we would talk about you know religion and talk about like, you know her childhood

00:28:28And how long

00:28:30How long have you been listening to what I did

00:28:34Um, seriously, uh, no, no, no, no, I don't know what seriously means just just give me the when you first hear what I do

00:28:43It must have been

00:28:472015 2016. Oh, so long before you got involved with this woman, right?

00:28:52Yes, at least two or three years before okay

00:28:55Okay, okay and so did you just keep going because she sang songs and was pretty

00:29:04No, I kept going because

00:29:07She did eventually, you know, she did become amenable to

00:29:11You know questioning the way that she was raised and raising these questions and objections to her parents and she did ultimately

00:29:18Confront them and break from them

00:29:20Then

00:29:22You know after a tragedy happened in her family, I think that really opened her eyes to just

00:29:28how fucked up things were for her and

00:29:30she couldn't keep making these sort of excuses and I kept you know, I kept

00:29:35You know, I would essentially like, you know

00:29:36Live to fight another day kind of thing where I would like, you know, like when she would get really aggressive

00:29:40No, no, but why sorry but why?

00:29:42Why wouldn't you I mean you can do all of that stuff without lashing out at your partner, right?

00:29:50Yeah, of course, so why would you take the I mean you said it's your parents thing, right?

00:29:55so why why would you

00:29:58pursue this when she was

00:30:00abusive

00:30:03I mean she was already I mean she I assume she had some mental health issues if she was already on antidepressants, right?

00:30:10That's correct. Okay, so she has mental health issues and she's abusive and aggressive

00:30:15So why plow on is it I mean was it mostly the looks I mean if she had been

00:30:21unpleasant looking or

00:30:23Overweight or like would you have stopped or like when she's yelling at you or abusing you?

00:30:30Probably not probably definitely like if she was in sight we are overweight. Okay, so you

00:30:37Chose her for her looks not her virtues

00:30:41It doesn't feel quite right

00:30:44I'm happy to hear the counter-argument

00:30:46I mean if you say I wouldn't have continued if she wasn't as attractive then you chose her for her looks

00:30:51Because if you say well her behavior was so negative that if she was average-looking or you know ugly or or overweight

00:30:58Then I wouldn't have continued then you continued for her looks

00:31:02Because that's a variable that swung the decision tree, right?

00:31:07Yeah

00:31:09Yeah

00:31:14And you certainly had been listening to me for some years by that point

00:31:18and of course

00:31:18I've always emphasized that love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous and I wrote a whole book called real-time

00:31:24Relationships about how to choose people and all of that, right?

00:31:28Yes

00:31:30So she regrets

00:31:32Sorry

00:31:34Well, I was just gonna say it at that time. I was

00:31:37Just really digging into like some of your you know political stuff and some of the stuff you were doing like the truth

00:31:42You know the truth about trademark, you know

00:31:44I didn't really start getting into like the bottom of the brain stuff and some of like your more self-knowledge stuff

00:31:49Maybe a little later

00:31:50Right, but still before you got married, right?

00:31:54Right. Oh, absolutely before I got married. Okay

00:31:58So

00:32:00Why are we talking about?

00:32:02I mean, let me ask you this just bluntly right? Do you regret the marriage?

00:32:06No

00:32:10Assuming that there's no magic solution right that she's just she is who she is. How old is she?

00:32:16No 29 29, okay, and how old are you?

00:32:21Uh 32 boy man, you sound old beyond your years. Holy crap

00:32:26Uh when you're carrying a real burden here, right?

00:32:28So do you I mean if you could go back to when she was snapping at you or yelling at you in the car

00:32:36Under the fireworks about your father, would you say keep going or would you say turn back?

00:32:45I'd say turn back. Okay, so you regret the marriage

00:32:49I do. All right. So why are we talking about your wife's regrets?

00:33:00That's a good question because you really want me to focus on her, right

00:33:06Yeah

00:33:09Is she is she better or worse is she better or worse than when you met her

00:33:20I'd say she's a little better in a lot of ways

00:33:24That's absolutely not true. Sorry, man

00:33:27Absolutely not true. I said when you met her

00:33:30And you said for the first six months. She was as sweet as sugar and as right as rain

00:33:36Right

00:33:38So she's way worse than when you met her, right?

00:33:40I mean for the first I mean you compare now to the first six months, right?

00:33:44Oh, yeah, you're right like these last i'll say it's interesting that this has been going on for six months like all of this now

00:33:53To the to the day this is like the babies are six months old and for six months to these last six months it's

00:34:00a thousand times worse, right

00:34:03And I assume she's had a i'm sure I asked this before she's had a health check up her hormone levels and all of that

00:34:08Because you know that stuff can get pretty wild after a bit after birth all

00:34:12All the things I've seen i've covered all basis. Okay, and she's allowed to find

00:34:17Yes

00:34:18Uh, was she did she go off? I mean was there a birth control thing because sometimes that can affect women's stability as well

00:34:25Like if you're a hormonal birth control

00:34:28I got her on birth control like year two or three of our dating

00:34:33Honestly, she just started to find me more attractive. Oh, okay. Good. Good. All right

00:34:43I'm sorry, I got her off of antidepressants and birth control

00:34:47at the second or third year of our dating

00:34:50Around the same time actually, okay

00:34:53Okay

00:34:54And sorry you uh be married sorry if i'm married for a couple of years and together for six, is that right?

00:35:01Okay. Yeah, we've been married almost two years now almost two years and together for six, right?

00:35:06That's correct. Okay

00:35:09Now when did her behavior over the sort of six years that you've known her when did her behavior slip from occasionally

00:35:17Aggressive to I mean where she's at right now, which sounds

00:35:22You know pretty messed up

00:35:24What was the sort of arc there?

00:35:26Was it a sudden drop off you said since the babies or was it before that since the babies since the babies honestly

00:35:33like the interestingly enough like

00:35:35they were born, you know around november the

00:35:38Four or five months leading into you know while she was pregnant

00:35:42for some of the best months of our

00:35:44entire relationship

00:35:48Right, she was starting to read a lot of philosophy she was starting to read a lot

00:35:52She was having a lot of doubts about her

00:35:55Christianity and she had even renounced it

00:35:58she had

00:35:58she was

00:35:59Calling me at work, you know sharing some interesting tidbit or insight

00:36:03she got from like one of your shows and we talk about these things for hours and

00:36:10You know, we were trying oh, do you know what her own infancy was like

00:36:15Can you repeat that do you know what her infancy was like when she was a baby

00:36:19I have I have um my predictions. Um, we talked about it. She doesn't have a lot of

00:36:27memories, but

00:36:28I mean just based off of like the outcomes of her sisters and

00:36:33Kind of just like the way because i've met her parents and i've seen them like it must have been

00:36:38absolutely wretched

00:36:40I think she may have seen her father. I'm just

00:36:43this is just based off of things I could be wrong about this, but I think she's

00:36:47Seen her father suicidal or maybe even homicidal towards her

00:36:55One of her sisters and she's seen her mom like, you know screaming and them fighting

00:37:01And getting physical with each other

00:37:05It must have been really bad she was born her mom was in her 40s

00:37:09when she had

00:37:10my wife and

00:37:12There was like a 10 year gap between her and her older sister and she had been told I think at a really young age

00:37:18That she was a see baby an accident. Mm-hmm

00:37:22So what do you mean by the homicidal stuff her father homicidal towards his children

00:37:31Yeah, um

00:37:33I I think so maybe not like maybe in just like his the looks I think he would kind of like shoot daggers into their

00:37:40eyes

00:37:40because my wife has struggled with eye contact in the past and

00:37:43through therapy they've kind of discovered that it's probably come from just a kind of

00:37:49Murder like the murderous glares that she's gotten from her parents

00:37:53but

00:37:54you know, I

00:37:56It could be even worse than that. But whenever

00:37:59Needless to say as of late whenever we try to speak on these things. It doesn't really go anywhere

00:38:04But before the kids were born we were starting to make a little bit of headway

00:38:09These things are sorry just give me the greatest hits of her parents mistreatment of her when she was young

00:38:16Sure, uh, the worst thing I think I can think of is

00:38:20Of her father and a family friend when she was four

00:38:24Years old they were at a public swimming pool

00:38:27And her father and her friend had held her down

00:38:31And she's like drowning and like gasping for air

00:38:34and

00:38:35You know, she thought she was gonna die and then, you know, eventually one of them, you know

00:38:40released her

00:38:42And she you know, she's coughing she had swallowed water and she ran to her mother

00:38:47was you know

00:38:49by the patio screaming and crying like

00:38:52And her mom told her something like it's just a joke

00:38:57Don't don't be something

00:38:59I think that's like

00:39:01Okay, and what else I mean there was the spanking beatings

00:39:06Uh neglect. Yeah

00:39:08Yeah, there was spanking there was daycare. There was

00:39:11nine, um nine daily spankings for the first

00:39:16seven eight years

00:39:17Sorry daily spankings

00:39:19That's what yeah, that's right with a paddle

00:39:22Oh with implements, so beat you get beaten every day for the first seven years of her life. Yeah beating. Yeah

00:39:28Yeah

00:39:30Bro, sometimes it would be her hand would be her hand that but oftentimes I think she would use

00:39:35I think she used the paddle when my wife started to get older and the hand wouldn't

00:39:40Hurt as much if that makes sense

00:39:42Okay, so she was beaten virtually daily

00:39:45At some point starting we don't know when but for the more or less the first seven years of her life

00:39:51Yeah, and she perceived that her father and his friend tried to kill her

00:39:55right

00:39:57And you thought you were gonna talk your way out of these issues

00:40:11I did

00:40:16If you had a friend who was dating someone with this history, what would you say?

00:40:25I'd say

00:40:28It's probably too much this is too this is more than you can probably handle

00:40:33That's what you would say more maybe more than you can probably handle

00:40:37It's more than you can handle

00:40:39I mean, you can't I try not to do my own appendix

00:40:43You know if my appendix ruptures, I don't do it with a spork, right?

00:40:46I don't do my dentist's work, right? This isn't that a job for professionals

00:40:51Yeah, it's a specialty

00:40:57Because I mean is is she triggered because she's getting her early traumas reactivated because of her babies

00:41:05That's right, you know her therapist refers to it as like, you know, it burns going down it burns going on

00:41:13It seems to be the case

00:41:16And were you expecting that or prepared for that or did you work that into your calculations

00:41:22She'd done some therapy before the

00:41:26Leading up to you know the kids and

00:41:31She had

00:41:32Done a lot of like crying and journaling like for a couple years as well during our you know

00:41:37Last year's kids were born and I thought

00:41:41That well, she may experience some

00:41:45Whether you believe in postpartum depression or not baby blues would happen

00:41:48Whether you believe in postpartum depression or not baby blues would happen

00:41:51Well, I thought that like and we had both of us had discussed like, you know, if that happens, you know

00:41:56I'll stop working and we'll

00:41:58you know

00:41:59Work this out and take some time to just work and work through that

00:42:04I wouldn't if she were on the line and i'm sorry that she's not what would she say about you? Um these days

00:42:10Oh

00:42:15I've let him down. No, no, that's that's that's her. No, I don't mean her you what she say about you

00:42:37Why didn't you why didn't you tell me not to do those things

00:42:40Sorry to do what things

00:42:47Acting suicidal, you know

00:42:49Acting suicidal after the babies were born

00:42:52And what did she um?

00:42:54What did she do that was when you say acting suicidal?

00:42:59Well, what prompted me to

00:43:02You know quit my previous job and to just focus on

00:43:07Helping her was initially in our old apartment where we lived in six months ago

00:43:14She had

00:43:15I'd woken up and she had told me that she was holding and looking at a firearm that I owned

00:43:22I asked her

00:43:24You know

00:43:25Why why were you doing that? Are you is there what's going on with that?

00:43:30She's like i'm

00:43:31Thinking about killing myself

00:43:34And this was sorry how long after the babies were born this must have been

00:43:40A month a month and a half after the babies were born

00:43:44And what was her affect or mood after the babies were born as a whole?

00:43:49Um the first two three weeks they were they were though my job had let me take uh, three weeks off for

00:43:58It was an unpaid paternity leave but you know, they I could keep my job those three weeks where I was with her

00:44:04She was really happy

00:44:06And we were going we were doing a lot of things together with babies and stuff

00:44:10But as soon as I went back to work at around christmas time

00:44:15Her affect had start started to

00:44:19To wane a little bit

00:44:21Okay, so I thought I thought that the idea if I remember this rightly the idea was

00:44:26That if she starts to get really down you'll quit your job and is that what you did

00:44:31That's what I ended up doing. And how long into that like how long?

00:44:36After the babies were born. Did you quit your job?

00:44:42Well, I'd only when I went back to work at around christmas I had only worked maybe a

00:44:47week or two about two

00:44:50weeks or so

00:44:51Before she brandished the firearm and then I quit

00:44:54As soon as she told me that so i'd

00:44:56No, and I hadn't I haven't worked. So I only recently started working again, but I hadn't worked for like about

00:45:02Since then for almost half the year

00:45:05Okay, so like a week or two after you head back to work. She's

00:45:09Staring down a gun barrel, right?

00:45:12Right, and then I yeah, I quit immediately. Okay, and did that help at all?

00:45:21Not really

00:45:24Because you know the next thing we did was we

00:45:31Because her parents knew where we were living and they were showing up unannounced and which was making things worse

00:45:36so I moved us out of there to

00:45:38somewhere

00:45:39more rural and more healing and got her in with a therapist and all of this and

00:45:45actually

00:45:46And you would point this out too. Like oftentimes when you start therapy things actually get really

00:45:52Get actually worse before they start to get better. So well, it's like physio, right? I mean it hurts and then it heals, right?

00:45:58But while as before she was brandishing a firearm, you know back where we lived like during the time

00:46:07When she had began therapy and it was just kind of me and her and the babies and a you know a cabin

00:46:13she started to

00:46:17I mean one time she you know, she had you know, she'd gone on a run

00:46:22And she had been gone for quite some time

00:46:24So I get in the car, you know to see where she had been

00:46:29she's like, you know, she's walking back and she's like looking down and

00:46:34I ask her, you know if everything's okay and she just doesn't answer me

00:46:40I'll ask him like what's going on and she shows me

00:46:44um

00:46:45Like a burn mark around her neck where I guess she had found an abandoned shack

00:46:50Somewhere around there and tried to hang herself

00:46:54well, the story is or initially was that she had tried to hang herself, but then

00:46:58when me and her, you know talked about it more she had said that she had only just put the rope on her neck because

00:47:06she had thought about it, but had actually didn't actually kick the

00:47:10You know the flooring out from underneath her to hang herself

00:47:14She was just showing me kind of sorry. How old were the babies at this point?

00:47:18um

00:47:21Three months

00:47:23so

00:47:24And was there is there any family friend or a relative that you care about or anyone who could take the babies?

00:47:33Yes, and have you talked about that with your wife I have and what does she say

00:47:41We can't you know, we can't abandon we can't abandon them. Well, that's just a lie. She's talking about killing herself. Wouldn't that be abandoning them?

00:47:49Right, so I don't understand

00:47:58I don't either it's no I mean, what's what's her reasoning?

00:48:02I mean

00:48:03It's not obviously. I mean it's too obvious to say that it's profoundly

00:48:07It's too obvious to say that it's profoundly destructive for children to be around a suicidal mother, right?

00:48:13Yeah

00:48:15so

00:48:16Wouldn't she give the babies up for their own good?

00:48:20Or at least wouldn't that be on the table?

00:48:21I don't know if it's the right or wrong thing to do but wouldn't that at least be on the table?

00:48:24I

00:48:36Mean maybe it's somebody she could visit the babies or something. I mean

00:48:40Is her sleep really badly disrupted? I assume that has something to do with you know, maybe what might be going on for her mentally

00:48:47It was during you know, the early goings, but she's been getting a consistent eight nine hours of sleep for the last

00:48:54Two three months the babies actually they sleep the entire night both of them. Wow

00:48:59Six months. Holy crap

00:49:02All right, they wake up maybe one time at like two in the morning just because they're a little hungry

00:49:06But they immediately go back to sleep. Okay

00:49:09So

00:49:12Uh, why why wouldn't she have somebody no, I mean again, I don't know if it's the right or wrong thing to do but

00:49:18if the babies are

00:49:19contributing to this

00:49:21mental crisis

00:49:23Wouldn't it be better for everyone if she took a break from the babies?

00:49:27If she took a break from the babies, yeah

00:49:34Well, the individual question would be you know my younger brother back in my home state

00:49:41Well, I forget about where they land. I've just is it on the table? Like is it even a possibility?

00:49:47Sure, it would be and is it for her?

00:49:50No

00:49:51Okay, so that's an impossible situation

00:49:59And it it seems a little selfish to me

00:50:01if

00:50:02The babies are giving you a mental health crisis. That's very bad for the babies to be around and could result in genuine catastrophe

00:50:10I mean wouldn't you I mean isn't that kind of clinging on to the babies while you drown rather than handing them to safety?

00:50:22You

00:50:39Yeah, I mean

00:50:44When did she last uh, when was the rope thing

00:50:46Like

00:50:51This must have been

00:50:55Early

00:50:57Maybe mid-february or so

00:50:59Okay, and did we talk talk about this last time?

00:51:02We did. Okay

00:51:03And I can't recall what conclusion we came to or not conclusion, but what approach

00:51:08we talked about

00:51:10I think it was mostly just

00:51:12it kind of

00:51:13Leaned back to like why did you you know, pick this person to begin with after listening to

00:51:20My stuff it's kind of the approach, okay

00:51:25I mean, do you think she is in significant danger of killing herself?

00:51:30Or is it uh

00:51:32Somewhat, you know women will sometimes a little bit more than men will threaten more than execute

00:51:37Her therapist seems to think that that's all

00:51:41kind of past her

00:51:43He's a very very good therapist and

00:51:46you know, he he believes that

00:51:49it's his professional opinion that she's past that but now she's just lamenting non-stop, which in many ways is

00:51:56Destructive for different reasons, but

00:51:59She's you know, she hasn't done anything extreme or said anything extreme or anything. Now. It's just regret endless regret. I go

00:52:06That phase well in like three months or whatever right three months four months

00:52:11Right

00:52:12and then like lately she'll even say like I was never gonna do that I just

00:52:17you know, it's almost like that stereotype like

00:52:20Attention-seeking and some trauma and has she apologized for terrifying you in this way?

00:52:28She has but it immediately there's no time spent on it. It's just like i'm sorry I did that

00:52:33I can't believe that this hurt me. It's not like

00:52:37It doesn't seem very genuine she can't believe that this hurt i'm sorry, I don't quite understand

00:52:44Like she'll say like, you know

00:52:46I'm, sorry. I did that

00:52:48but not like

00:52:49I can't imagine what tell me tell me how you felt and you know, what has this done to you and right?

00:52:54No, it's just a bullshit on apology. Okay

00:52:58And have you thought of separation?

00:53:03I have and what are your thoughts on that?

00:53:07My thoughts are

00:53:14As a single, you know as a single father with two little girls

00:53:23Probably a

00:53:26Really difficult situation to navigate it would be difficult for sure

00:53:29I mean you could end up getting remarried and right there are people who marry into

00:53:33You know, there are women who can't have kids who would love to help raise them some twins or babies or a baby

00:53:39So, I mean that's you know, you could you could get remarried at some point

00:53:47And I guess like, you know just thinking about the remarriage thing and like in the interim, how would I

00:53:54I think I figured

00:53:56I'll just say this I kind of figure I know what you'll say though. It's like

00:53:59Obviously i'm against daycare and stuff like that, but like I don't know what options I

00:54:03Didn't have a brother. You have a brother, don't you?

00:54:06I do. I'm, sorry. Wasn't that the brother who might take the babies?

00:54:10He would absolutely help me with that. I would probably have to move. So that would be a solution, right?

00:54:17That would be a solution. Yes. Okay

00:54:23And what percentage of you is leaning towards that or what

00:54:28Percentage of that is in your option list

00:54:33It seems split 50 50 because

00:54:36the therapist that you know

00:54:39She's working with who i'm also working with

00:54:43Or at least is really confident that she can

00:54:47Help improve the situation so it doesn't get to that point

00:54:50And how long have you been seeing this therapist?

00:54:53How long has she no you I sorry I it was in a couples or is she just seeing

00:54:58The therapist alone. She's seeing him alone and we're doing couples with him and I I he was my original therapist from a couple years

00:55:05ago

00:55:06Okay. So how long have you as a family been seeing this therapist?

00:55:11Um was group only for the last four weeks like doing group session and how long have you been seeing him

00:55:19Um

00:55:22She originally saw him, um about two years ago for about a year on and off and

00:55:32So, hang on so she saw this very confident therapist for a year and she ended up suicidal after having babies

00:55:41Right, he seems very confident

00:55:48I mean wouldn't if he was so amazing wouldn't he have seen this coming?

00:55:52And worked to help her ameliorate that

00:55:55issue, I mean, I don't know i'm not a therapist, but

00:55:59He seems very confident

00:56:01For somebody who has already treated the patient and she was suicidal

00:56:12Yeah, is that why you're calling me do you do you have doubts about his confidence

00:56:18I suppose I do

00:56:20Well, I don't know. I mean i'm not trying to put i'm not trying to put thoughts in your head

00:56:24It just that's a that's a pretty that's a pretty bold level of confidence

00:56:28in my view

00:56:30for someone who's I mean

00:56:32If if he was new to the situation, maybe but he's already treated her for a year in the past, right?

00:56:38Yeah

00:56:40Let's let's say let's say just for a career. Let's say about six months. It doesn't change much about it doesn't change much

00:56:47I mean, did did she stop going of her own accord or did he say she was done?

00:56:53She stopped going with her own accord and why why did she she felt she was done

00:56:57He thought she was done and did he disagree?

00:57:02You may not know right because that's a private thing between her and her therapist, right

00:57:07You can ask her. I don't

00:57:08I don't know. Yeah

00:57:11Did you think she was done

00:57:14I

00:57:16So what I told her at the time is

00:57:19She had said like I have so much

00:57:21Like material to work with i'm gonna take a break

00:57:25because

00:57:26Really overwhelming i'm gonna need some time to just kind of work through some stuff before

00:57:31Because it was overwhelming

00:57:33Yeah, okay. That's not a great sign, right?

00:57:39I'm not going to see my therapist

00:57:41Because too much stuff is being uncovered and it's like isn't that kind of why you need to see a therapist

00:57:50That's the exact reason why I think so, okay

00:57:57So

00:58:00How can I help you

00:58:06Can't undo the marriage can't undo the babies

00:58:08I can't tell you whether you should or shouldn't get a divorce. I don't know

00:58:11I'm glad that you're both in therapy

00:58:16So what can I do to help you

00:58:18I mean i'm happy to be a sounding board if that helps and you just want to get things off your chest

00:58:22I'm happy to listen

00:58:25But I you know the the helplessness and the sadness that is kind of radiating off you right

00:58:32I mean, this is obviously not how you want it to be a father and this is a

00:58:36god-awful mess

00:58:41You said the helplessness is radiating off me. Oh, yeah. Yeah for sure

00:58:44You've had your voice is just empty of life and hope and all all things

00:58:50shiny

00:58:53Yeah, it feels that way

00:58:55Mm-hmm

00:59:08Be honest stuff I I guess I don't know I but you wanted to talk and what was your impulse

00:59:14To to I mean i'm i'm happy to respond to your impulse

00:59:20I mean, I never want to deny whoever I can accommodate who reaches out. So

00:59:24Uh, what was the impulse

00:59:29The impulse was I suppose like the helplessness and the

00:59:32despair had gotten to the point where I just

00:59:35Was like I wonder if there's something i'm there has to be something i'm missing there has to be something i'm not

00:59:40Seeing you know, well the helplessness of course comes from feeling like you're doing everything perfectly because if you're doing everything perfectly

00:59:47And it's not working despair is the natural result

00:59:51Does that make sense?

00:59:53It makes perfect sense. Yeah, okay. So so when you

00:59:55Tell me at the beginning of the call

00:59:57Well, i'm doing everything just right and we went over that a couple of times then I understand

01:00:01Why you feel helpless because if you feel like you're doing everything just right

01:00:06Then she's just crazy and bad or whatever we'd say and that's it, right, right

01:00:15I mean, you're not helpless, right?

01:00:17No, of course. I have options. Yeah, I mean you can you can separate

01:00:23You could try to convince her to let your brother take care of the babies for no obviously never see them or anything

01:00:28But you know give her a break from the motherhood that is obviously I mean it seems to me. It's kind of

01:00:33triggering her

01:00:37And you can also

01:00:40Emotionally detach from the marriage

01:00:43Which might be a good self-protective armadillo move at the moment

01:00:48Can you say that last part again you broke up, oh, yeah emotionally detached from the marriage

01:00:53I mean not permanently but for a while

01:00:58What what do you mean by this like well she's

01:01:03She's pushing buttons and you're responding like it has something to do with you

01:01:09Right you take it personally, right

01:01:12I do okay. It's not personal because it's triggered by the babies. It's about her own infancy. I would assume right

01:01:22And this is the great lie of forgiveness forgiveness is just this tiny band-aid you put over a giant wound and pretend that you're healed, right

01:01:31So she was wrong about all the forgiveness stuff

01:01:34and her body knows she's wrong and it's rebelling against all of that saying

01:01:39We were so cruelly violated and you wallpapered it over with forgiveness, but the fire still rages and the acid still burns

01:01:49Wow

01:01:53Well, I hate this forgiveness stuff with a

01:01:55Burning burning old testament passion

01:01:58I do it's it's uh, it's self-congratulatory. It's shallow. It's pointless. It's often. Um

01:02:04A holier-than-thou superior, but I forgive and I don't know why you have such a tough time forgiving

01:02:08You have to forgive to let go and move on and you know

01:02:11It only hurts you and but it's like all of this pompous windbagry and it's like, okay

01:02:16Well, let's see what happens when you hit a crisis. Let's see what happens to all of this

01:02:20Amazing self-knowledge and forgiveness and depth

01:02:23I mean she couldn't even hold up forgiveness when you annoyed her by asking her about her forgiveness, right? It's all such shallow

01:02:31Nonsense and it's a drug that's just handed out so people don't deal with shit and then the babies pay

01:02:37God, I hate fucking fear

01:02:39Fucking virulent. Oh, it is. It's a brain virus and it's the forgiveness shit is all planted by evil people

01:02:47So that you don't feel how much evil they did to you

01:02:51So that you're rendered helpless and then the next generation pays the price. I I hate the forgiveness stuff with like a deep

01:02:57deep passion

01:03:00Because every single person i've ever talked to

01:03:03Who parades around this forgiveness windbaggery is just the most pompous and wrong person around

01:03:09And so self-congratulatory, you know, i'm so wise and i'm not talking about your wife here

01:03:13Just people i've met like oh i'm so wise and i'm so mature and I can't believe you haven't forgiven people

01:03:18Forgiveness is wonderful. You you just you've released and you move and say oh my god. It's just such lies

01:03:24It's just

01:03:27Oh, yeah, no, i'm i'm sure you have and it's like okay, where's all your wisdom now

01:03:32Right, you got a gun in your hand a rope around your neck. Where's all this wisdom now

01:03:36Where's all of this growth? Where's all though? I'm so forget. No, it just it has people not deal with stuff

01:03:42It's fake it's a

01:03:45It's a pill for a toothache

01:03:49It just makes the ache and the wisdom

01:03:52It just makes the ache and the rot worse

01:03:55so yeah, it is and and this is

01:03:58She knew all of that deep down her father didn't want you to poke around whether she had actually forgiven him

01:04:05And so the father lashed out at you and took a hostage and now is taking two more kids hostage

01:04:13Yeah, that's accurate

01:04:17So

01:04:19This is not personal

01:04:24You know, I I bought a rumba once I know this sounds like a bit of a whiplash

01:04:28So I bought a rumba once because I thought it was cool, right robot

01:04:33Sweep things up neat. I mean I love toys, right?

01:04:37So I got the rumba I put it down

01:04:40And within about three minutes it had found a pair of headphones and sucked them into its guts

01:04:47Nice headphones, too

01:04:49I guess they were somewhere down on the ground or whatever, right?

01:04:53Now that was annoying, right?

01:04:56right

01:04:58Uh, because

01:04:59I gotta untangle the headphones which takes forever

01:05:02They're probably broken and then i'm not sure if I want to use the rumba again

01:05:06Like, you know, it's just from yay to ah, right within three minutes, right?

01:05:13Now

01:05:14Did I take it personally was the rumba just trying to annoy me was the rumba just aha i'm gonna get him

01:05:19Oh, I bet you he likes these headphones

01:05:22Slurp slurp, right

01:05:24All right. Absolutely. No, no

01:05:27It was just a bit of bad luck a minor annoyance nothing major

01:05:35It's not personal to you

01:05:38It's just an old wound erupting

01:05:44You know sometimes, uh

01:05:48Have you ever gone on vacation and you know, you have a late night and you're at some resort, right?

01:05:54And they're doing some leaf blowing or some lawn mowing or something like that

01:06:00You know not crack of dawn, but you know, like eight in the morning and you want to sleep till ten, right?

01:06:06Yeah, I think most people have had it's not personal they're not like aha

01:06:09I bet you he's having a good night's sleep. I'm gonna rev this right. It's not personal

01:06:14Yeah

01:06:16So she's just making annoying noises it's not personal

01:06:23She's going through a crisis she's making noises and you're taking them personally

01:06:29This is like somebody going through epilepsy they elbow you in the chest and you spring up ready to box because they

01:06:36They violated the nap, right? It's not that's not the case

01:06:40Well, she's having a crisis

01:06:42I mean

01:06:45She didn't see it coming, right?

01:06:48You didn't see it coming her therapist

01:06:51Of six months who is such an expert. He's got this in the bag man. He's got it sorted

01:06:57Right her therapist didn't see it coming, right?

01:07:00No, so she got side swiped by a giant iceberg of unknown history

01:07:08And you're taking it personally it's got nothing to do with you

01:07:12You

01:07:17You're engaging you're engaging with this and you're emotionally invested in this like you're involved

01:07:25Like if she if she was if she was holding a picture of herself as a baby and weeping bitterly would you take it personally

01:07:33Hey, man that reflects badly on me, I can't believe you're exalting me

01:07:37Of course not because it'd be kind of selfish be a little narcissistic to make that about you, right

01:07:43It would be so this isn't about you

01:07:47This is about her her fucked-up family and her babyhood

01:07:53You were a quarter century in the future

01:07:57Right

01:07:59I mean you were a baby to give or take right

01:08:02Yeah

01:08:05So she's having this kind of crisis or this meltdown or whatever

01:08:08And you're taking it personally you're emotionally engaging as if it's to do with you

01:08:15Because you're panicking and you want to control her panic you want to control her crisis because it's making you feel terrified

01:08:22Which I understand I don't nothing. I mean that's perfectly natural feeling

01:08:28So you're trying to control her crisis and the best way you can do that

01:08:32Is to take it personally because if it's about you, then maybe you can affect it somehow

01:08:37You can fix it. You can solve it. You can change something you can do something, right?

01:08:42Wow

01:08:43always

01:08:45Which i'm sure is a habit you picked up from

01:08:47Having to manage your own parents emotions because they were volatile and like this is all stuff. We've we know right?

01:08:54Right, right

01:08:55So it's not personal. That's what I mean emotionally detached from the marriage because there's no marriage right now. She's an infant

01:09:01She's

01:09:03Re-experiencing infancy

01:09:05She's not your wife. She's a baby and I know that sounds derogatory. I don't mean it that way

01:09:10No, Steph. I thought

01:09:12i'm

01:09:13i'm in chills because I

01:09:15I thought of that like within the last week not nearly as precise as you were but like

01:09:21My wife an infant right now and not my wife. It's just interesting hearing you say that. Yeah

01:09:27I mean babies cry

01:09:29It's not personal they're not trying to annoy you they're trying to help you right you want your baby to cry otherwise they die

01:09:37So she is re-experiencing

01:09:40Catastrophic neglect and abuse because of her babies

01:09:47She's got a skilled therapist who's confident

01:09:50You know

01:09:51The fact that I don't hugely share his confidence is completely meaningless because i'm not competent to judge his competence because i'm not a therapist

01:09:57Right, that'd be like me me judging an oncologist confidence. Like I don't know

01:10:02I'm, just that's my gut but that doesn't mean anything because i'm not an expert

01:10:05That's just done in kruger all over the place, right? So that that means nothing just absolutely nothing

01:10:10I just want to be be clear about that because I you know, I haven't treated her. I'm not a therapist. So I don't know

01:10:17Um, I can't judge that i'm just telling you seems like a lot of confidence to me. But again, what do I know? So

01:10:22But yeah, it's not i'm emotionally detached from the marriage because you you're thinking this is a marriage right now, but it's not

01:10:30You got a toddler

01:10:32And you know what stuff you know just to lean in yeah i've been

01:10:36because needless to say like

01:10:38Not there hasn't been any cook like there's been minimal

01:10:42If any like cooking or cleaning or any of that stuff

01:10:44So I work and i'm also doing these things too and I am taking that very personally you have three babies

01:10:50three babies

01:10:53Yeah

01:10:54Like i'm sorry about that. I really am

01:10:56I'm, sorry about that, but you're not a victim

01:10:59You knew she had a fucked up childhood when you gave her babies

01:11:03And listen, I hope she's super pretty man. I really do

01:11:08I hope that's worth it and i'm not I know and that sounds snarky. I don't right being pretty is nice a pretty girl

01:11:14A pretty woman is nice

01:11:17but you

01:11:19You walked right into this, right?

01:11:22I mean, she didn't hide that. She had a completely screwed up childhood, right?

01:11:27No

01:11:29so

01:11:30It's worth it for you. And listen, i'm not saying she's only pretty you say she have you have great conversations deep conversations

01:11:35She's into philosophy god love her. I think that's great, right? So

01:11:39Maybe she's just right

01:11:41In the long run, right?

01:11:43And so don't you but you can't feel like a victim

01:11:49I mean, I understand it's easier to do that and it's this but that's your childhood, right?

01:11:53So you can't say to her you need to overcome your childhood when you feel trapped and helpless like a victim like you were

01:11:59A child, but you didn't you chose all of this

01:12:01You didn't choose your parents. You sure as hell chose her though, right?

01:12:06And you chose her

01:12:07With knowledge and you also chose her knowing that I was one phone call away

01:12:12Right and you chose not to make that phone call and i'm not blaming you for that

01:12:15Maybe this is the right thing for you in the long run

01:12:20But

01:12:22You knew

01:12:25That her bad childhood

01:12:28Was gonna pop up to put it mildly

01:12:32From time to time and it has right

01:12:34It has okay

01:12:36And she's to her credit. She's taken some, you know responsible work

01:12:40in

01:12:42Going to therapy and and dealing with stuff and working on stuff and all kinds of good stuff, right?

01:12:48You know taking distance from her parents, yeah

01:12:51Even like so this was a surprise to her therapist. It was a surprise to you. It was a surprise

01:13:00To everyone

01:13:03Unguessed right because and that's the problem with infancy is you don't remember it. So it just shows up in the body, right?

01:13:10All right, if this is what's happening I would guess that it is I mean nobody knows for sure maybe

01:13:15Figure it out in time, but I really feel like that's what it is

01:13:22Okay, so she's got some real pluses yeah, she's got some real pluses and i'm

01:13:26Sorry that I was just saying I didn't mean to indicate only pretty right?

01:13:29I mean you talked about some other good qualities that she has

01:13:33But it was the prettiness that kept you going. So so she's got some very positive qualities and

01:13:38the childhood thing

01:13:40Is hitting real hard at the moment

01:13:43And you're taking it personally she's just crying over her infancy and you're making it about you

01:13:49I mean i'm not saying that's all you're doing and I know you're resisting it and all of that

01:13:52so I don't want to minimize that but

01:13:54That's a lot of it, isn't it?

01:13:56It is a lot of it. That's right

01:13:59So, you know try to minimize it but you know, oftentimes, you know, I do take it personally as you pointed out

01:14:05yes, and and I understand that too you're a young man and and

01:14:09It's a it's a hard load to bear and it is not what you want when you have

01:14:13New babies, but you have the babies. They're not going there's no no, uh, no amazon package to send them back, right? So

01:14:20But yeah, I mean to emotionally detach

01:14:25Is to know when to emotionally detach is absolutely essential in life

01:14:30I mean, do you think i'm reading my wikipedia page every day going? Oh my god

01:14:34I've got to fix all of this i'm tortured right to know when

01:14:38Yeah to know when to emotionally detach

01:14:40In life is absolutely essential. It's an absolutely essential survival skill now

01:14:44We always think oh, but i'm dissociating and i'm suppressing and yes. Yes. Absolutely. You should

01:14:52There's a reason we can do that, I mean, yeah, it's essential

01:14:56I mean, yeah, you know the dog thing is like show no fear. It's like yeah

01:15:00We know we know how to do the opposite of our emotions

01:15:04Can't treat these things like they're just bad. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm never gonna do that. It's like of course you're gonna do that

01:15:12Yeah

01:15:16I mean

01:15:17You don't think I faked a bit a bit of bravado sometimes when i'm going up for a speech and there have been bomb threats

01:15:23And death threats. Yeah, it's a little bit of bravado there

01:15:26Hope I don't die

01:15:27right

01:15:29so

01:15:30That's natural that's healthy. It's so knowing when to emotionally detach which is which is really emotional self-control

01:15:37Which is not rejecting your emotions but not accepting them as real

01:15:43You know, it's kind of like you have a nightmare

01:15:46Like I know you haven't dreamed much lately, but it'll come back right so you have a nightmare

01:15:50And you're terrified and then you wake up

01:15:55And you realize it's not real

01:15:57And your emotions fade away

01:15:59Because you now realize oh

01:16:02It's not real

01:16:06Right

01:16:08So that's it. You've got to wake up from this nightmare

01:16:11And that doesn't mean leaving the marriage or anything. I don't know what that means, but it does mean in terms of practical things

01:16:17but

01:16:19You need to wake up from the nightmare and recognize

01:16:23That the emotions she's thrown around are not personal to you

01:16:27It's not real

01:16:30It's not directed at you you're not part of the equation

01:16:35It's she's going through like everything she's doing is driving people away is that fair to say

01:16:40It is definitely. Yeah

01:16:42So the reason that she's been landmined to drive everyone away is so that her parents can continue to abuse her at least that's what

01:16:50When she was a kid, right she would have been programmed by her parents

01:16:54To drive everyone away so that her parents could continue to abuse her and she would never tell

01:16:59So right now what's she doing? She's driving everyone away because she's re-experiencing early childhood trauma

01:17:06I'm not you gotta you gotta rise above that man. I know it's tough. I know it's tough

01:17:13But this has to be like it's one thing to be in a world war one battle

01:17:16It's another thing to read about it a hundred years later

01:17:18A hundred years later and this has to be like with the emotional distance of i'm reading about this a hundred years later

01:17:28Stop taking it personally because that's why you end up shoving each other

01:17:33Because you think it's about you

01:17:35Or as I said before you are managing your own fear of her breakdown

01:17:40by trying to control her which

01:17:42inflames her aggression

01:17:45Because she's frustrated that you're making it all about you she's crying over a picture of her

01:17:50As a baby and you're being really offended by that and saying oh you just don't care about me then and she's like

01:17:55No, it's not about you. That's the frustration, right?

01:18:06That all makes perfect sense at all

01:18:09It all completely lines up even with like the pushing people away thing like yeah, don't fall for that

01:18:14Don't don't fall for her father and her mother and whoever harmed her as a baby. This is the

01:18:20Uncle, right? Don't don't fall for all of that pushing away stuff

01:18:23I mean, you don't you can't fake it and say, you know, like I love you when she's snarling at you

01:18:28I mean, that would be kind of weird, right?

01:18:30But you know, just yeah, tell me more. Yeah. Uh-huh. Mm. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, tell me more

01:18:35Yeah

01:18:37Oh, yeah. No, I can that would be tough. Yeah, i'm happy to hear more. You don't take it personally

01:18:42Oh, you're just you you're just you know, you never you never you never stop me from doing bad things

01:18:47Wow, that must be really frustrating. Yeah, tell me more about that

01:18:51Well now you're just doing this it's like yeah, yeah, no, I get it i'm i'm here for you tell me more

01:18:57It's not personal

01:18:59Wow

01:19:04At that point is when I you know

01:19:06Because I'll do the tell me more thing but I I don't see it through I I

01:19:10Do lose patience after maybe an hour. So I guess I can okay. So then you say then you say

01:19:16Uh, sorry, i'm i'm at a point like i'm not able to listen. So i'm just i'm gonna go for a walk

01:19:21i'm gonna go listen to some music, you know, i'm i'm sorry to be rude, but

01:19:25You know, I i've been listening and uh, um at this point i'm it's it's really becoming quite frustrating and annoying

01:19:32So care about you. Love you, but uh, i'm gonna have to take a break

01:19:36now she may follow you or whatever it is and

01:19:38You know, she may be really kind of clingy and codependent or whatever is going on and just have to find a way to get

01:19:43your space

01:19:48It's still not personal

01:19:58Because if you're terrified of her

01:20:03Mental issues

01:20:05She's really gonna spiral

01:20:12Yeah, I can see can you explain why I because

01:20:19Then she can't feel like secure or safe

01:20:23Well, it's kind of like uh

01:20:26If you go to the dermatologist and you say you can have a look at my back and he says holy shit

01:20:31What the hell is that?

01:20:33Right that would you're gonna

01:20:35Freak out, right? Yeah, you like what the hell is in my back, you know? Yeah, if it's just like oh, okay

01:20:40That's interesting. That's you know, it looks a little odd. Let's just take a little biopsy here. I'm sure it's fine

01:20:44you know, you just want him to

01:20:47Not freak out, right

01:20:55You know those medics in war right hey man, you're fine you can get your pants right up

01:21:01Yeah

01:21:02Always where's your leg? You know, whatever. I mean i'm saying that's that bad, but you know, right? No freaking out, right?

01:21:10Of course not. Yeah

01:21:11Definitely not going to help your situation by any by any stretch

01:21:20I mean if if her father was murderous as you say a homicidal or

01:21:24Then the suicidal stuff is just her father saying. Yep. I can still wipe wipe her out anytime

01:21:32You

01:21:35And if this is kind of like i'm not saying it is all a strategy but if it's a kind of strategy then um

01:21:44The more you react the more the strategies will replicate

01:21:51And you're just gonna have to you know

01:21:54Just grit your teeth then. Yeah. Tell me more. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah, though. That's tough. I understand

01:22:00Yeah, I get you're really mad at me tell me more right and you just don't respond as if it's real

01:22:09That's the emotional detachment that you're describing absolutely absolutely essential

01:22:18I like that

01:22:19I mean, we all have to know how to do that, right? I mean, I remember crossing from

01:22:25oh, mexico to guatemala or something like that and

01:22:28My visa had expired and you know, you hear all these nightmares about like

01:22:33Central american prisons or whatever it is and you're like just gotta brazen your way through man

01:22:39Show no fear

01:22:45You know you ask some girl if your dream's out and she says no you don't just curl into a ball right

01:22:50Hey, no problem. I appreciate that

01:22:53and off you go and you know, maybe you bite your thumb later, but

01:22:56Right

01:22:57You're desperate for a job. You don't show that desperation. You don't grab the guy's lapels and say man. Give me this job

01:23:02I gotta eat right

01:23:04right

01:23:06You suppress that shit

01:23:10We do it all the time we do it do it all the time. Yeah

01:23:15This year I am here not doing

01:23:17Well, of course listen, I mean, I hope you forgive yourself for that, right?

01:23:20I mean you had an emotionally reactive family of your own. You're a young man. It's a highly stressful situation

01:23:25you've got a

01:23:26Pretty unstable new mom on your hands like cut yourself some slack. This is that's this is some this is some serious black belt

01:23:33emotional ninja shit, right

01:23:36You have to navigate this and need to get a jedi master, isn't it?

01:23:39Yeah, this is like, you know, this is this is some serious

01:23:42serious emotional self-control

01:23:44But and but it's not like the reason I say detach emotionally is because it's not about you

01:23:51right

01:23:52Right, so so your emotions are reacting as if it's about you and i'm not saying oh your emotions are

01:23:58You're bad and you've got to suppress them. It's like but it's not about you

01:24:03And you know what steph and you're saying that it makes me realize that

01:24:07in these moments where I

01:24:09Try to control it and make it about me

01:24:12She'll only want to make it more about her and then in these moments

01:24:15I've had i'll betray these little thoughts that she's being a narcissist, but clearly i'm the one who's

01:24:20Well, I mean narcissist is a pretty technical term I guess but and we all fall into this

01:24:24She's trying to make it about you

01:24:26So she doesn't have to deal with it because if she can fight with you she can avoid what's going on inside her and so

01:24:31She's trying to provoke you so that you'll react and then she can fight with you rather than deal with what's bubbling up inside

01:24:38Right, and then I own it

01:24:40Yeah, and then it becomes about something other than

01:24:44What's going on inside, right?

01:24:46Which is she's realizing how bad

01:24:50Her childhood was deep down right? It's a full-body revolt against the lies of forgiveness, right?

01:24:56yeah, she's having such a bad bad time at it because she'll even say things like

01:25:03My childhood couldn't have been that bad and she'll say things like that. Well, it's also it's also it's also a crisis of faith

01:25:13You know, it's really really tough

01:25:16To maintain a belief in a loving god when you finally get how fucking bad your childhood was

01:25:24It's existential

01:25:29Well, but it's not a church thing that's an existential god thing

01:25:36Like once once I got how bad my childhood was i'm like

01:25:39Yeah, sorry god. It's not a thing

01:25:42I can't I can't like I can't go there. You're either powerless or sadistic and either way I can't worship. Yeah, exactly

01:25:53Oh, but I gave human beings free will they just chose wrong it's like no

01:25:57Human beings seem to really enjoy hurting their children because it's a universal phenomenon. They really seem to get off on hurting their kids

01:26:04They seem to like it a lot because just about everybody does it

01:26:07So if you wired us up to hate our children or to dislike our children or to enjoy hurting our children or to prefer hurting

01:26:13our children

01:26:14Sorry, if that's the way you're wired

01:26:17You know if I if you program a robot

01:26:20To seek out and hurt children

01:26:22Don't tell me about the robot and the programmer has nothing to do with it

01:26:27Correct

01:26:29So yeah, she sounds like she was just raised by some

01:26:32Pretty horrible sadistic people, which is a lot of people in the world

01:26:36And it's a battle

01:26:38for her soul in a way right her children are trying to draw her to the future and

01:26:42Her family is trying to draw her

01:26:44to the past and

01:26:50You have to be

01:26:52Accurate in your emotions

01:26:55You didn't do something wrong. You didn't offend her. You didn't upset her. She's like, oh, I can't believe I called my mother

01:27:00Yeah, I know but you did right? I mean, so

01:27:03Yeah, that's that's tough it's tough I mean

01:27:07Oh, I betrayed you. I I let you down. It's like actually you're you know, if you want to be technical

01:27:12You're letting me down more by continuing to obsess about it in a way than if like actually doing it, right?

01:27:19Like that that's more harmful like the fact that you called your mother months ago is mostly in the past

01:27:23But the fact that you keep talking about it now is tougher for me in the present

01:27:26So if you do want to do something that helps me if we could drop that as a topic i'd really appreciate it

01:27:31it's not essential, but i'm happy to talk about it, but

01:27:33it's not

01:27:35You know

01:27:36It doesn't make sense to say I feel bad

01:27:39For hurting you when I called my mother when it's actually you continuing to talk about calling your mother that hurts me more

01:27:43if you care about not hurting me then

01:27:45Stop talking about it

01:27:54But it's yeah, I mean it's not about you know, you're pushing a toddler man

01:27:59And

01:28:00Your toddler pushes like, you know, your babies get bigger they're gonna

01:28:04Aggress they might hit you they might you know, whatever right there's going to experiment with aggression

01:28:08They're going to experiment with lying. So your toddler pushes you to push her back

01:28:13Are you saying that because they're seeing aggression now or they no, no, it's all children all children will experiment with aggression and lying

01:28:20All children so it's wired into us

01:28:23So your toddlers your babies are going to experiment with aggression and lying

01:28:29Right. So your toddler is going to push you might hit you might bite you

01:28:34Are you going to bite your toddler back?

01:28:37Of course. Well, why are you doing it with your wife? She's a toddler at the way at the moment

01:28:44Yeah, I you know oftentimes I

01:28:46I try to I i'm not seeing her that way. I'm still trying to see her as my wife

01:28:50And of course that makes total sense. I mean and you're not crazy. She is your wife

01:28:54Obviously, we're just talking in an analogy here, but mentally right we all go through sometimes we feel younger. Sometimes we feel older, right? So

01:29:04Um, yeah, she is your wife obviously, but you know, she seems like she's going through a

01:29:08regression crisis at the moment and uh

01:29:11You it's long before yeah. So what she's dealing with was around decades before you even showed up

01:29:17So you can't make it about you because you weren't even there

01:29:20correct

01:29:25You

01:29:28And maybe that's the piece that you felt was missing

01:29:31That is the piece that I felt was missing. Oh good. Well, i'm glad we we stumbled over it then i'm i'm glad for that

01:29:37Me too. Stefan. Thank you

01:29:39You're absolutely welcome. And i'm really really, you know, you have my

01:29:42Massive massive and deep sympathies for this situation

01:29:46It's tough, you know parenthood

01:29:47It doesn't usually shake out quite the way that we anticipate and some of it's better and some of it's worse and you're going

01:29:52Through a very tough patch and I wish I could give you a big hug brother because it's really it's really tough

01:29:56I mean, obviously you'll get through it and your kids will be fine

01:29:59And i'm, you know, you've got a skilled therapist, uh on uh, who's working and you know

01:30:03Again, take his confidence as meaning a thousand times more than any skepticism. I have

01:30:08And uh, you're doing all the right things and that's the best thing you can do to to have things work out

01:30:15And just a little more emotional detachment a lot more

01:30:20Oh a lot more

01:30:22Because it's a little more emotional detachment is like okay instead of making it 80 about me i'll make it 60 about me

01:30:28It's like no, it's not at all. No

01:30:31Zero percent. Yeah

01:30:33Will you keep me posted about how it's going?

01:30:35Absolutely. Stefan. Thank you. Once again, you're very welcome brother. Take care and keep in touch. All right

01:30:40I will bye now

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