Stefan Molyneux
Stefan Molyneux
  • 6 months ago
In this episode, we discussed a caller's concerns about accountability and communication within their marriage, particularly during challenging family events like a funeral. We explored specific instances of arguments and interactions, offering guidance on addressing these issues and modeling positive behavior for their children. The conversation also touched on the impact of parenting styles on family dynamics, focusing on the caller's struggles with anger and yelling. Reflecting on childhood experiences, we delved into the influence of past behaviors on current parenting practices, emphasizing the importance of breaking harmful cycles for healthier family relationships.

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Transcript
00:00:00Okay, it was I need some marriage advice said we spoke back in November when my marriage was on the verge of collapse and I need some follow up advice for the last six months I've been trying to hold myself to higher accountability stop blaming be more patient and just overall take the lead is the man of the household things have improved but my wife and I still have had some significant arguments between then and now things culminated when her
00:00:30grandfather passed away we attended his funeral last week and do a big fight in
00:00:35front of our kids and I went downhill from there this was on Mother's Day the
00:00:3912th I don't want to lose her or the family but I fear that she's on the
00:00:43verge of collapse our kids are having a mental health crisis need your
00:00:48assistance is out to save this because I'm at a total loss
00:00:50well okay well do you want to remind me what we talked about last time let's see
00:00:56okay so it was back in November oh gosh I'm gonna call this performance anxiety
00:01:05trying to remember that's no it's it's totally fine it's totally fine if you
00:01:12don't remember it's just six months ago and of course I do hundreds of these
00:01:14calls so that's totally fine we can just pick it up from what happened at the
00:01:20funeral sure well I can I can give like a broad paintbrush the bottom line was
00:01:31we were having some my wife and I were having some significant arguments a lot
00:01:36of back-and-forth and I did a lot of blaming the the mother of my children
00:01:43and not taking accountability for my own action so I would like hold her to a
00:01:48high standard or I would put on a face or I would act a certain way in front
00:01:53of other people but then when I'm sorry this is the part where I ask you for
00:01:57facts not opinions because you're giving me descriptions I'm older to this and I
00:02:01do this I don't know what any of that means like I need the actual facts if
00:02:05you are very kind I just need to know just so we can start with the facts I'd
00:02:09be thrilled beyond words yeah yeah okay so like for instance if my wife and I
00:02:18would have an argument over something and like a couple times we would get
00:02:23into an argument like before church or a social gathering and then you know we
00:02:30would arrive at the place and it was immediately like a flick of light switch
00:02:33and you know put on this great face and would be mr. nice guy and like nothing
00:02:40had ever happened so it was like I could put on this great face for everybody
00:02:46else but when it came to arguing or trying to deal with things with my wife
00:02:49like she would get the absolute worst of me and so it's like why couldn't I oh
00:02:56you know if I can flip my switch for these people who I don't even really
00:03:00know and who are like maybe distant friends why can't my wife get the
00:03:04absolute best of me especially since she's the mother of my children right
00:03:09yeah I mean she's just completely it's gonna hate you for being mean cruel and
00:03:15vicious to her and then turning your sunny side on when there are strangers
00:03:19around you're treating the mother of your children worse the complete
00:03:24strangers right I mean and you know I'm sure she'd maybe she does that with you
00:03:27as well but you know she's just gonna you're gonna hate you for that right
00:03:31because it's right right then you're angry and fake yeah right right it's
00:03:36like you know when you have a kid and they pretend to have a stomachache to
00:03:39stay home from school and then they stay home from school and they suddenly
00:03:42magically get better like you just you've been played right right anyway
00:03:46sorry go ahead
00:03:48um let me say it'll probably all like come back to me but I would also blame
00:03:58her well like so we would get into an argument over something and she would
00:04:02say well you did this and then I would blame then I would turn around say well
00:04:05you did this too and you never take responsibility but then I wouldn't take
00:04:08responsibility myself so it was like I would get mad at her for not taking
00:04:12responsibility you never like really to myself come on man this this is
00:04:15relationship 101 you don't do the you always and you never stuff right right
00:04:19because it's so petty it's so easy to disprove and you're lying because it's
00:04:25never the case that she always or never like you're just putting yourself from a
00:04:28negotiating standpoint you're just putting yourself in a ridiculously weak
00:04:32and vulnerable position right right right right well
00:04:38yeah yeah that's okay so give me what was the what were the issues what were
00:04:47the surface issues that you were fighting about at the funeral like what
00:04:50were you fighting about what was the conversation give me a soul okay so so
00:05:01my wife's grandfather passed away like two weeks ago we went to the the funeral
00:05:06last weekend try to be supportive try to be you know loving and caring for
00:05:12God's sakes man try to be supportive tried I don't know what any of that
00:05:15means this just a narrative I I tried to no no no what did you fight about what
00:05:22were the words what were you fighting about at the surface level what what
00:05:25provoked the conflict and what was actually said and what were you fighting
00:05:28about at the surface level at the language level like if I was reading a
00:05:32transcript of your fight what would I read right okay so we were driving back
00:05:37from the funeral we were in the car and it's like a seven-hour drive from where
00:05:43we were coming from and coming through New York City really bad traffic and my
00:05:49wife's like hey it's gonna be really bad it could be really stressful and we need
00:05:54to you know stay calm I need you guys to like stop jumping out of the back seats
00:05:57so the kids you know like 15 minutes in they start like getting up out of the
00:06:01seats they start like moving around we're driving a van I'm sorry I had the
00:06:04kids so 13 10 and almost 5 so are you expecting a four-year-old to sit quietly
00:06:15for seven hours straight I'm not quite sure I understand no no no like totally
00:06:20understand it but they were they were kind of like you know rambunctious up to
00:06:23New York City and like the traffic there's really bad we just said hey look
00:06:27now we need you guys to kind of focus so that we can get through there but
00:06:33that's that's what my wife said so and then my daughter's was it because the
00:06:38traffic was dangerous I'm like isn't normally isn't bad traffic really slow
00:06:42traffic how does it how does it in danger well yeah it's I think it was
00:06:50really just asking the kids not to like because they'll jump right we're not
00:06:54they won't jump they'll just be really loud they'll like scream or ignore you
00:06:57because they're just messing around right it's just it's just kids but you
00:07:00know when you're like trying to dodge other cars and all of a sudden like you
00:07:03hear like one of your kids like screaming like a blood-curdling scream
00:07:06and but they're playing around in the backseat it can be a little distracting
00:07:10and nerve-wracking what is the age of the kid who screams 13 or why why is
00:07:17your why is your 13 or 14 year old screaming in a car I'm not quite sure I
00:07:21understand that they're just messing around no I understand that but I mean
00:07:28isn't there kind of an agreement that screaming can get the family killed yes
00:07:33like we we have explained that to them okay so you've got a son who's screaming
00:07:39in the car which is very dangerous right because you can't hear the traffic you
00:07:42can't hear a horn you're right right and it makes you panic right because you
00:07:46think right it's starting right so you lose your concentration okay I understand
00:07:49that so have you had the conversation saying like that's the deal you can't do
00:07:56it and has the child agreed yes that has happened and it still happens so then
00:08:04the child hasn't agreed right okay so a 14 year old 13 or 14 year old should be
00:08:11able to sit in a car without screaming right so is it the case that your eldest
00:08:20child it's a boy right well we've got a 15 year old she wasn't there with us but
00:08:27it was the 13 year old okay 13 year old and that's a boy right yeah it is a girl
00:08:32that's a girl okay got it in the place then yeah okay so the 13 year old girl
00:08:36is still screaming in the car even though she knows it's startling and
00:08:41dangerous right right and then she was getting up and like dancing because we
00:08:45had one of the seats down and they said we're like hey like stop doing it my man
00:08:49my wife yelled at her and well hang on hang on sorry sorry to interrupt let's
00:08:54just back up a sec so the girl
00:08:58has she agreed to not scream in the car because it's dangerous yes and so why
00:09:07doesn't she hang on hang on so why doesn't she respect her agreements now I
00:09:11mean kids can forget right and then you say no no no remember we don't scream in
00:09:15the car because it's dangerous and she's okay sorry sorry whatever right so does
00:09:20she say she's not gonna scream in the car and then what's her story when she
00:09:24screams in the car and you say no no no hang on we we talked about this you
00:09:27can't scream in the car it's dangerous right so what does she say when you
00:09:32remind her okay hey I'm sorry
00:09:39I'm sorry or she'll say that she's sorry or she'll say okay fine I won't do it
00:09:45again and and then you know a while we'll go but it the ball kind of and I'm
00:09:51just using the proverbial ball like you know it may be my son who's like
00:09:54rambunctious for a little while and then the other two are kind of calmed
00:09:57down and then my daughter will be kind of wild and the other two are calm and
00:10:01then you know just kind of goes in cycles sometimes most of the time
00:10:05they're pretty good but you know in seven hours there's gonna be some some
00:10:09some head bumping okay okay now why why would the I think this is just questions
00:10:17there I'm sure there are great answers so there's nothing none of this criticism
00:10:20why why were the kids coming to the funeral
00:10:25um then I wanted to go for emotional support for my wife because I did not go
00:10:31to her grandmother who passed away the previous year so I said I want to go to
00:10:34this one I wanted to pay my respects and be there for her because I knew she was
00:10:38gonna be a tough time for her I wanted to go this time and then our 13 year old
00:10:44wanted to go the 15 year old did not want to she stayed home with them my
00:10:50brother-in-law and and he took care of her that we have a good relationship is
00:10:54fine there then obviously the five-year-old couldn't go and then our
00:10:59ten-year-old was like well I want to go with you guys too he wanted to go and so
00:11:03we were like okay well sorry that you're coming back from the funeral right it's
00:11:07that the next day or the same day of the funeral so we left on a we left on a
00:11:14Thursday this the funeral was on or the wake was on a Friday and then the burial
00:11:21was on a Saturday and we were driving back Saturday so you know emotional
00:11:24events Friday and Saturday driving back immediately after the internment on the
00:11:31road in New York City three in the afternoon after grandpa's just been
00:11:35buried okay so the kids weren't somber right
00:11:40like that because they just literally came out of a funeral oh that rights
00:11:47right it had been you know four or five hours or so maybe three or four
00:11:53something like that okay so they knew that their mom was sad right assume that
00:11:58your wife was sad about her yeah grandfather yeah right right so I'm not
00:12:05saying that they have to sit quietly but their hands folded but wouldn't they
00:12:08have some sensitivity to your wife being sad and also that they were just
00:12:12at a funeral like there's a good time to talk about death it's a good time to
00:12:15talk about mortality you know like I mean there's a certain amount I'm trying
00:12:19to figure out where they're screaming coming out of a funeral right because
00:12:27they're not taking it seriously now I get that their kids and all of that so
00:12:30there's probably a certain amount that they just don't particularly process
00:12:33very well but I guess I'm just curious why the kids would come to a funeral if
00:12:37they don't take it particularly seriously and that's not a criticism
00:12:40I'm just sort of pointing it out right I think I don't think that the mourning
00:12:46aspect was necessarily stressed we talked about you know going to the wake
00:12:54and the service and then the internment and then I think it's kind of like you
00:12:59know when you come home from church on Sunday you toss your clothes off and
00:13:02it's like oh now I can send it you know I can relax okay well the funerals over
00:13:06so now it's all right back in the car and you know another onto the onto the
00:13:12next thing and what's your wife sorry to interrupt was your wife close to her
00:13:17father to her grandfather yeah relatively relatively okay so she was
00:13:23Tom I think that for growing up yeah yeah so she was there and did you
00:13:27explain what the funeral meant and the fact that mom would be sad and and all
00:13:32of that yeah we we did and we explained to me
00:13:36look you know you people are gonna be crying and that's okay to cry you know
00:13:40sometimes people don't cry at the funeral it's times afterwards and so we
00:13:44tried to kind of walk them through like maybe some of the emotions that they
00:13:47might be feeling and you know we tried doing like I think you know preparing
00:13:55them for it and I think it went pretty well in terms of their respects at the
00:14:00funeral and afterwards so they didn't scream and act up at the funeral but
00:14:06just in the car on the way home
00:14:14you I mean there's a little acting up on the way there but it wasn't so bad at
00:14:20the funeral right no not not a tear now a caveat between after the service in
00:14:27the afternoon we got done at like noon we went back to this family restaurant
00:14:32whole bunch of family there like a hundred some odd people all hanging out
00:14:36people having drinks and we went back to the the grandparents house where they
00:14:41used to live and now it's empty but like all the family members were there and
00:14:44people were hanging out and drinking and and and talking and it was a lot of you
00:14:50know family time together so it was loud and rambunctious so if you know if
00:14:53you're talking about well there's kind of a precedent set you so the kids you
00:15:00know I could see where they might also get confused about the environment
00:15:04because it's like okay very somber now it's like hey everybody's back here the
00:15:06party and there's a bunch of people drinking and talking and being loud and
00:15:09then people staying up late and then it's in the next morning it's burying
00:15:13grandpa and then we're you know we're at the cemetery and then all right now
00:15:16we're off on the road again so it's like okay but so but from the from the the
00:15:21sadness of the funeral you then got in the car and drove and they weren't
00:15:26acting up at the funeral right? No they were they were pretty good so. Well
00:15:32weren't they perfect? I would say they were perfect what what they did like
00:15:37didn't necessarily you know cause me to be upset or anything like that so. Right
00:15:43so you see the pattern right and the pattern is you behave well until you're
00:15:49with family alone because then you model too right? Right right right. So
00:15:56they're taking your modeling which is we have to behave properly and well when in
00:16:01the presence of other people but it turns into Lord of the Flies when the
00:16:04family's alone right? Yeah yeah that is I would say that's true yeah the typical
00:16:10mask that you see a lot of people do. Well like you know I mean you could you
00:16:16can put it on a lot of people but we're not talking about a lot of people
00:16:19aren't calling me you're calling me right? Right right I guess I'm just gotta say
00:16:24like you know you see like Hollywood couples in this or you know people that you know in your life. Okay do we really want to spend time talking about Hollywood couples and blending your behavior into what other people do? Right right right. I cheated on my wife but then so did Brad Pitt or
00:16:37whoever right? It's like well yeah but we're not talking about that right? I guess I
00:16:42was just trying to draw the good comparison that you know hey I'm not so
00:16:47different from those people who you know they have all the nice fancy photos
00:16:51on Facebook and then behind the scenes. Yeah they get divorced. Right. But you don't
00:16:57want to get divorced right? No. Okay so you don't want to get divorced so let's
00:17:01not talk about how similar you are to people who end up getting divorced. Right.
00:17:05Because then there's no point having the conversation you might as well go get
00:17:07divorced right? Yeah right. Okay so let's not blend it in with others. I understand
00:17:12the impulse but let's not blend it in with others. Okay now was it you driving
00:17:15or your wife? My wife was driving. And she was upset right? Yeah she was upset.
00:17:24So given that your wife and again just curious no criticism given that your
00:17:28wife had just buried her grandfather who she was quite close to why would she be
00:17:32driving? Wouldn't she be a little upset? I had driven to the the internment and
00:17:38then we got to we like did a bathroom stop like five minutes and then she's
00:17:43like no I'm gonna drive and I was like actually she's like no no I'm gonna
00:17:46drive. Okay that's what you want to do. So I let her do that I think because
00:17:54usually sometimes what happens is I deal with the kids and she'll she'll drive
00:18:00and I think she I think that was she was trying to like occupy her mind I could
00:18:04be wrong. Oh was she trying to distract herself from her sadness? I think so
00:18:10yeah. But why is that that's not teaching good emotional habits to your
00:18:14children is it? If you feel sad distract yourself with New York traffic. Right
00:18:19yeah but I well I know also she she kind of didn't want to bring the kids along
00:18:30and I know my wife's gonna listen to this and so please I know I'm probably
00:18:34butchering some of it somewhere but she wanted to originally just go up her and
00:18:40our 13 year old and just those two and I said you know I really want to go there
00:18:46I really want to be and I want to be able to support you and be loving and
00:18:49caring and she was kind of reluctant because she's like I don't want to play
00:18:52babysitter with the the four-year-old while I'm trying to like mourn and I'm
00:18:55like all right hey I'm gonna try to help with that and and try to distract and I
00:18:59and I I tried to and but I think there was still like some stress from from
00:19:07having to deal with the kids even in the oh that's right the yeah we we shared an
00:19:17Airbnb with her sister and that whole family was just that's a whole other
00:19:22call-in show just on them and there so there was tension there yeah so what's
00:19:36your wife right to not want particularly the four-year-old along I mean 14 hours
00:19:42in the car is pretty tough for a four-year-old and right you know they
00:19:45don't really get the funeral death thing and they certainly wouldn't have much
00:19:48history with the relationship right yeah yeah so well I guess what I wanted
00:19:53to do is like hey despite you know I wanted to show family support I wanted
00:19:58to be a loving husband I wanted to be there and I knew like the daughter and
00:20:01my son we're gonna be like a little much but I was like hey look let me like kind
00:20:04of help manage them but sorry and I know you mentioned this earlier just remind
00:20:09me why would the youngest kids come along
00:20:16they they wanted to go we didn't have anybody else who could watch them well
00:20:21sorry wasn't your brother-in-law did I get that right yeah he but he like he's
00:20:2730 something but I wouldn't really leave my ten-year-old and our almost five-year-
00:20:33old there with him not that there's anything wrong but I just didn't want to
00:20:38he was already kind of like like we were already kind of burdening him to come up
00:20:42to her ass because we have like chickens and stuff we're like hey can you watch
00:20:45them and then also can you take our other daughter so it was like he had to
00:20:47like change a whole bunch of plans I didn't want to burden him I'm sorry I
00:20:51thought I thought you were big into family support what's right it's not a
00:20:55burden to spend time with his nieces and nephews is it yeah no and no he does
00:21:02enjoy them but I guess I feel like it would have it might have overwhelmed him
00:21:07or something and is there nobody else like no friends family friend like like
00:21:13other people with kids that you know or any I guess a lot of the extended family
00:21:17was at least on your side or like no there's nobody else you could leave your
00:21:21kids with yeah not I we probably could have I probably if we if we had Tetris
00:21:28that if I had planned a little better I probably could have found some other
00:21:31people but I guess I'd kind of acquiesced to yeah okay let's bring them
00:21:35and we'll make it work and I'll I'll shoulder the burden of watching the kids
00:21:39so that you can you know mourn and then I can also be there and be your you know
00:21:45supportive husband right I'm not sure how supportive you can be when you're
00:21:49wrangling the kids but okay so you're driving in New York and what at what
00:21:55point in the seven hours like three hours five hours where are you in the
00:21:58seven hour drive we're like I guess maybe three hours in the traffic was
00:22:03no okay so the the trip got off to a bad start because we were supposed to leave
00:22:08it like 12 and we didn't get up there till 730 and like we had stopped a
00:22:11couple times like when we were like what you were seven and a half hours late to
00:22:14leave no no we were supposed to leave at 12 and it normally takes like six six
00:22:19and a half hours and we didn't get up there till like 738 or eight some
00:22:24somewhere so like 80 so it took like eight hours and that oh you only got
00:22:28home at eight or whatever sorry it was it was traffic both ways to like to get
00:22:34like to drive up to the funeral like to Massachusetts and then to drive home
00:22:39okay no I'm sorry I understand that I had to drive both ways I can follow that
00:22:44so did you leave late or was it just bad traffic
00:22:49um we had left a little later that I wanted to leave at like 12 she wanted to
00:22:58leave it like 11 30 11 45 and I was like no let's just spend a little bit longer
00:23:03we'll play with you know what my daughter wanted to ride the bike and
00:23:05whatever so we got off late and that was my fault so like right off the bat we
00:23:09left like maybe 30 minutes later than we she wanted to and so like most of the
00:23:14drive up there she was very upset because we got caught in a little bit of
00:23:17traffic well no I don't know was it we got set back like I don't know maybe
00:23:20like an hour or so and so we like kind of got caught up in that and so then
00:23:26that was like you know if we just left when I wanted to I don't know why I let
00:23:29you tell me this and it's so like I'm sitting there like like listening to her
00:23:32tell me how I like you know kind of like flat-tired everything and I'm like hey
00:23:36I'm really sorry well don't worry we're gonna make it up like you know like
00:23:40we're gonna get there so I'm trying sorry you know I'm gonna make it up so
00:23:44she's wrong she's saying she's saying we're gonna be delayed because we left
00:23:49later and you're saying no we're not gonna be delayed you're wrong and it
00:23:53turned out she was right is that is that I understand that right well well no I
00:24:00didn't say we were gonna be like maybe you said we're gonna make it up well I
00:24:06guess I don't like I like it's just a little I tried to reach her like hey
00:24:09look it's just a little bit of traffic I know it's really annoying but like hey
00:24:12we're gonna get through it and we're still gonna make it up there in good
00:24:15time like sorry get up there or make it back home like like make it up to
00:24:20Massachusetts oh that and that's back home right I know we're from further
00:24:26south okay sorry are we talking about the way out or the way back
00:24:31both of the rides there no no this one my god man you left at noon you didn't
00:24:36get home till 8 is that the way out all the way back I guess the way back cuz
00:24:40home right that was no that was the way to the funeral in Massachusetts when we
00:24:45look at so the way to the funeral you were supposed to leave at noon you left
00:24:48later and you got caught in traffic well we were supposed to leave at noon she
00:24:52wanted to leave at 1130 I said let's leave no no no don't be fine if so you
00:24:57left late you left later and it was bad traffic and is that the case on the way
00:25:00home or um we made like a couple of pit stops and that kind of push things back
00:25:07well no you have to make pit stops right come at a four-year-old the car
00:25:11for seven hours straight they'll get deep vein thrombosis or something I'm
00:25:14kidding right but but okay so so on the way back you didn't leave late is that
00:25:21on the way back we left it in all right time but traffic kept piling up okay got
00:25:26it yeah okay so what's your wife right about the kids coming and you coming
00:25:34like it was not a good idea yeah I would say in the end yeah I wound up
00:25:39being disastrous for her okay well I mean so she was right about that right
00:25:44yeah okay so you are in the unenviable position of being a husband who's
00:25:49completely in the wrong and it's kind of messed up a funeral emotion for his wife
00:25:53right right and that you know that happens right we certainly make
00:25:57recommendations that turn out to be completely wrong so that happens in in
00:26:01every relationship so okay so so you're driving back and New York is bad you're
00:26:06a couple hours into the drive got a long way to go and your kid is your 13 year
00:26:11old daughter is screaming and intermittently or whatever right and
00:26:14what happens with your wife she's driving and what happens with her
00:26:20she got mad and yelled at her
00:26:25to stop screaming and there had already been like some yelling before and I've
00:26:35tried to get I've been trying to work on the peaceful parenting thing by not
00:26:39yelling and say like hey come on guys let's bring it down like you can't do
00:26:44this in the car and so then like she like screamed stop screaming right which
00:26:51is like you're like why are you guys screaming why are you guys yelling like
00:26:53you know but like it's like screaming it's like well hey like in my mind I'm
00:26:59thinking well you're yelling like why are you yelling right and it's like well
00:27:03hey we got to like change the tone and I'm thinking
00:27:08and so I'm like hey you know maybe we bring it down a little bit she remembers
00:27:12it as I was like like very rude to her or yelled at her about it's like scolded
00:27:18her and so instead of like defending her in front of the kids and saying yeah
00:27:21guys stop yelling I went after her and it went downhill from there so instead
00:27:28of defending my wife I told her that she shouldn't be raising because it was
00:27:35already going to make it more chaotic than it already so what would that mean
00:27:38to defend your wife would that mean to say it's okay to scream at your kids
00:27:42that they should stop screaming
00:27:46it would be me not quote-unquote you know correcting or telling her that she
00:27:53can't say that now if this is a part of the phone call where she's gonna say I
00:27:57said everything was wrong and she's like listening back to this thing like that's
00:28:00how I'm remembering it so I'm not trying to spin it or tell a lie but sorry we're
00:28:05in the car if she's if she's here what does she mean by supporting her does
00:28:09that mean not correcting her in front of the kids bingo but so I can't get kids
00:28:14in front of each other she's correcting the older kid in front of the younger
00:28:16kids so what does that mean nobody in the family can correct anybody else in
00:28:20front of anybody else because that's not what she's doing right but I think she
00:28:24thinks of it as is you know we're unified and if we have something to
00:28:29dissent about then we go off in private and we discuss it in private but we
00:28:33don't know but she's not doing she's not doing that with her daughter she's not
00:28:36taking the daughter she's not saying okay let's pull the car over at the next
00:28:40coffee shop I'm gonna go and have a chat like you guys go get a coffee I want to
00:28:43chat with my daughter in private so right she's not saying that it's good to
00:28:48talk about people you have big issues with in private because she's correcting
00:28:51her daughter in in front of everyone else right which can be considered a
00:28:55little humiliating right yeah I mean that's the rule if you want to
00:29:00rule then you've got a model the rule right and of course if you have a rule
00:29:03called don't scream then don't scream and if you have a rule called don't
00:29:06correct people in front of others then you shouldn't do that with your kids
00:29:09either right because that's the rule that they'll internalize right well I
00:29:13think we thought that because I was on the same page as her for for for the
00:29:20most part that like hey you know if there's like something big like hey we
00:29:25should you know probably talk about it kind of behind the scenes but like
00:29:30there there are times when it's like hey well you know if I was like throttling
00:29:33our son or doing something that was like really bad I wouldn't wait for you to
00:29:36like you know I beat him up not that I've ever done that and then yeah and
00:29:42then be like after like well you know I really didn't think you should have done
00:29:44that but I didn't want to you know stop you in front of the blue the kid turning
00:29:48blue all right now do you have do you have a rule as a whole is she on board
00:29:53with the peaceful parenting stuff like don't yell at your kids
00:30:00my understanding of where like I think she's hung on what do you mean have you
00:30:05had the conversation with her I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't
00:30:07have right I'm just curious have you had the conversation with her saying we
00:30:11shouldn't yell at the kids yes and has she agreed to that or not she thinks
00:30:18that okay they already don't listen to me anyway and if you take away the tools
00:30:25that I'm already using then they really won't listen to me so if I can't even
00:30:28getting them to listen to me by not yelling at them and they certainly won't
00:30:32listen to be like oh so sorry sorry her argument is I'm yelling at them they
00:30:37don't listen so I really shouldn't change anything I do
00:30:42um I don't want to put words in her mouth but I think no no but that's a
00:30:47logical consequence right I'm doing this thing which isn't working how dare you
00:30:50ask me to change what's not working
00:30:54yeah yes okay so she is not on board with don't yell at the kids right she
00:31:04she says it's legitimate and right and good parenting to yell at this is scream
00:31:11I guess you said you said scream right to scream or yell at the kids right yeah I
00:31:14think she thinks that there are certain times when it's okay to no no hey it's
00:31:19good parenting it's the only way they'll listen right right because if you speak
00:31:23softly then they won't want to listen to you okay so for her it's good
00:31:27parenting to scream at the kids at times yes there are times when it's necessary
00:31:32no no not necessary good right right I mean it's necessary to get a cavity
00:31:39filled but it's not good to have a cavity to get filled right but she thinks
00:31:43it's good like because it's the only way they'll listen and obviously kids have
00:31:46to listen right I think she would like to not have to do that but I think she
00:31:52feels the need like she asked she would like to not have to do that I don't
00:31:57understand what that means but she did it I mean if you know if some guy has an
00:32:01affair and his wife and he said well I'd really like to not have to do that it's
00:32:04like but you did it right I think she would like to not have to yell but I
00:32:08think that she feels as though maybe she's tried that in the past and it
00:32:11didn't work so she resorted back to yeah right have you seen that that she's
00:32:17tried consistently for a while to not yell at her kids and it doesn't work
00:32:25I mean she's had a program said I'm not gonna yell at the kids I'm gonna give
00:32:28give it six months or whatever and then she didn't yell at the kids consistently
00:32:32and it never worked and so now she's back to yelling is that is that because
00:32:36I don't believe that I mean but is that the theory yeah no she she's not tried
00:32:42that and truth be told like I have not tried that I just tried the principle of
00:32:46like trying to yell the least amount as possible because I already know that I'm
00:32:50scared I'm sorry so you I'm sorry don't mean a lot so you're into peaceful
00:32:55parenting as well but you still yell at your kids I I know that it's wrong and I
00:33:01should not do it and so I try not to like I try to restrain myself I like
00:33:07what I guess what I'm saying is like I know you and your wife failed to
00:33:11restrain your hang on you and your wife okay that's all right don't be laughing
00:33:14serious stuff but it's kind of funny in a way like dark comedy so you and your
00:33:17wife and I don't see this with any hostility or anything I'm just sort of
00:33:20pointing out the facts right so you and your wife fail to restrain yourself and
00:33:25raise your voice and you get mad at your 13 year old who fails to restrain
00:33:29herself and raises her voice and like I see the irony in that like like I see
00:33:34like a hypocrisy right right yeah exactly like I like I'll see like it's
00:33:39like sometimes I'll hear so like I don't know why the kids are acting like this
00:33:42I'm like I can point exactly where this like why is our son punched self in the
00:33:46head and like super angry like all the time oh I don't know like that came from
00:33:50me years ago from like all this bad stuff that I did like or like why is our
00:33:54daughter acting like that like hey have you not like you've done these certain
00:33:57things before like I see absolutely like where this stuff comes from your wife
00:34:02says how dare you lose control the raise your voice while losing control and
00:34:05raising her voice right yeah you you at 13 should have all the self-restraint
00:34:10that me at 35 just doesn't have or 40 or whatever right right okay right all
00:34:16right and so like I realized that like as the head of the household I have
00:34:19absolutely like completely failed in this like completely failed I guess my
00:34:24curiosity is why do you have permission to intimidate your children like to yell
00:34:29at your children what's what's the story with that like I mean no because you
00:34:33have it like you do it right so there has to be some reason behind why why
00:34:37it's okay to do like I mean you don't rob banks right you don't break into
00:34:40cars you don't assault people for their wallets because you like absolutely won't
00:34:44do that right so you have on the table intimidating like yelling at and
00:34:50intimidating your kids and what's the thinking and again I know this sounds
00:34:54like all kinds of condemned condemnatory I don't mean that I'm just genuinely
00:34:58curious what you're thinking is that this is behavior that you can do it's
00:35:04it's not okay not work with me I'm asking you the reasons why you think it
00:35:09it's okay enough to do
00:35:13well you know like family of origin childhood no no no that's that doesn't
00:35:20explain anything right because if you if it if it was done to you and you know
00:35:23it's bad and painful you've also had the theory you've talked to me I don't know
00:35:26if you've read or heard of any of the peaceful parenting book but like you
00:35:30know it's it's it's not good to do right so you give yourself permission in
00:35:35some context to do it and and then you give yourself no permission to do it
00:35:42right because if I understand this correctly you don't yell at your kids
00:35:47you don't scream at your kids at church or in company or at a funeral or with
00:35:51friends or with family or in a restaurant so they see you continually
00:35:56with perfect self-restraint right right and then when you can get away with it
00:36:01and you're alone and you don't have anyone shooting you dirty or shocked
00:36:04looks you let loose right so you give yourself permission to do it at times
00:36:10and then you give yourself no permission to do it at times so what's the
00:36:14difference
00:36:18the hypocrisy well no that's a description of the results but what is
00:36:23going on in your mind where if you're in public you'd never dream of screaming
00:36:27at your kids and then when you're in a car in private it's fine or good I guess
00:36:33I'm trying to maintain an image don't know these are all guesses it's an
00:36:38emotional thing somewhere in there right because you you have you have really
00:36:43different standards when in private than in public right yeah yeah now I mean
00:36:52some of that is necessary right I mean we we go to the bathroom in private not
00:36:56in public right I mean some of that you know we make out with their wives in in
00:37:00in private not at the funeral right so I understand appropriate behavior and so
00:37:04on but as far as the morals go your kids see you with perfect self-restraint in
00:37:10public and then you let loose in private and there's got to be a thought about
00:37:15that so either it's a if it's a good thing to do you should do it in public
00:37:19right you know like it's it's good to feed your children so I'm sure you don't
00:37:24like if your kids are hungry and you're in public you'll feed them I said buffet
00:37:28or something go eat right it's good to play a game with your kids so if you're
00:37:32in a public situation in a park you'll play a game the tag or ball or something
00:37:36like that right so so if it's good to yell at your kids why wouldn't you yell
00:37:43at them all the time in well in public or whenever you felt like it right so
00:37:48there's something where it's this is bad and then this is good and the
00:37:53difference between public and private so what what's that thinking
00:38:00that stuff you do away from people and good stuff you do
00:38:08out in the open
00:38:11well I mean you're just describing the two different behaviors but the why
00:38:14if you don't yell at your kids in public and it's good to get your kids
00:38:19then you're allowing being in public to make you a bad parents right if you
00:38:25get your kid but you don't yelled at the kids in public
00:38:28then you're letting the position of being in public you into a bad parent
00:38:33does that make sense
00:38:34yeah
00:38:36whereas if it's bad to yell at your kids then you're a better parent in public
00:38:40but then you turn into not such a better parent in private. So you've got two different sets
00:38:50of rules, and they're kind of opposing, depending on public or private, right?
00:38:53Right, right, right.
00:38:55So I think intellectually, you probably say, it's not great to yell at your kids, right?
00:39:02Right.
00:39:03So what's the difference in private? Why is it okay in private? I assume your wife is
00:39:11the same way. She doesn't yell at her kids in public, but yells at them in private. Is
00:39:16it something like, well, yelling is discipline, discipline is necessary, but you don't yell
00:39:20in public because it's a private matter and you don't want to humiliate the kids in public,
00:39:25or I don't know, like something like that?
00:39:28Yeah, I guess it's probably wrong, or to embarrass yourself.
00:39:33Well, no, you shouldn't be embarrassed by being a good parent, should you?
00:39:40Well, if you quit yelling with being a good parent, then...
00:39:44No, but you do. Your wife certainly does. I mean, and so your wife says,
00:39:48they don't listen to me unless I yell, so I'm going to keep yelling, and they have to listen
00:39:52to me, so this is good parenting, right? That's her justification. I'm curious what yours is.
00:39:58I lose my temper.
00:40:03Okay, but you listen. There's times when you... Sorry to be annoying. There's times when you
00:40:06lose your temper in public, too, but you don't yell at them, so it's not a matter of losing
00:40:11your temper, right? So your wife has a justification. They have to listen to
00:40:17me yelling. It's the only way they listen. What's yours?
00:40:27Asserting dominance, I guess, maybe? I don't even know if that's necessarily it.
00:40:33Well, it can't be really asserting dominance, because if you want to assert dominance with
00:40:37your children, and then you're super nice to them in public, then you're just saying,
00:40:43I'm a bully, kind of bullying in private, and then I'm being bullied in public, right? So
00:40:49it doesn't really assert dominance if your kids see you do bad parenting when you're around other
00:40:54people, because then you're just succumbing to peer pressure, which your children won't respect,
00:40:57right?
00:40:58Yeah. Well, sometimes what they do doesn't necessarily bother me, but I know it will
00:41:04bother my wife, so I'll tell them, in her defense, like, hey, guys, come on, let's keep it down.
00:41:11But I won't be like, well, you know, your mom's going to get really mad. I'll just say, hey,
00:41:15you know, I'll try to like, hey, guys, it's really disruptive, can you? And I'll kind of
00:41:19take like a more of a, like, wee tone.
00:41:22Okay, I've got it. So then the principle that goes across to your kids is, don't do things
00:41:28that are upsetting to your mother, right?
00:41:32Yeah.
00:41:33Okay, so do your kids see you do things that are upsetting to your mother?
00:41:38Or to their mother, sorry, to their mother, to your wife?
00:41:41Yeah, yeah.
00:41:42Okay, so if the rule is, don't do things that are upsetting
00:41:46to your mother or my wife, then if your kids see you do things that are upsetting
00:41:51to their mother or your wife, then that's kind of confusing, right? So one of the things that
00:41:57sort of popped into my head is, you're saying to the kids, don't do things that are upsetting
00:42:01to your mother, don't yell, scream, or whatever, because she's upsetting to your mother.
00:42:04But then your wife gets mad at you for correcting her in front of the kids, which clearly is
00:42:08upsetting to her. So you're saying to your kids, don't upset your mother, while at the
00:42:12same time upsetting your mother.
00:42:14Right.
00:42:15Upsetting their mother, sorry.
00:42:17Right, yeah.
00:42:20So let's get back to the rule. What is the rule that gives you permission?
00:42:24You know, like, I don't imagine there's any circumstances under which you would rob a
00:42:28bank, right?
00:42:30Right.
00:42:30Okay, so why is not robbing a bank 100%, but not yelling at your kids 50-50, depending
00:42:37if you're in public or private, you're upset, or like, what's the difference? Like, I mean,
00:42:42because your kids see you do all of this stuff, like you pay your taxes, you stop when the
00:42:46cop pulls you over, you don't yell at them in public. So you have all these standards
00:42:49and rules that are 100%, right? You don't, like, just occasionally scream at them in
00:42:52public, like you just don't do it at all.
00:42:55Right.
00:42:55So what's the rule? Or what's the, maybe exception to the rule? Because I don't know if
00:43:02the rule is yelling at your kids, and then you don't do it in public, or if the rule
00:43:05is don't yell at your kids, but you do it in private. I don't know what side of the
00:43:09fence the rule falls on, but what gives the permission to you? What makes it okay? For
00:43:16your wife, it's like, well, they have to listen, and they only listen when I yell,
00:43:18so I have to yell. So what is it for you?
00:43:30Like when it's okay for me to yell?
00:43:32Well, you give yourself permission to yell at your kids. So when you're in public,
00:43:37the impulse, you're mad at your kids about something, the impulse comes out to yell at
00:43:40your kids, and then you don't succumb to that impulse, right?
00:43:45I will correct them. I will, like, pull them aside.
00:43:48No, no, no, I get that, but they're yelling.
00:43:54So you get mad at your kids, you want to yell at them, or if you were in private,
00:43:57you would yell at them, but because you're in public, you don't yell at them, right?
00:44:01I don't know that I really yell like my wife does. I will raise my voice, but I won't, like,
00:44:07get over here right now! Like, I don't do anything, like, I don't, like, yeah. So I'll be like,
00:44:16like, hey, guys, you were supposed to do blah, but you did blah, and so, yeah, you know, like,
00:44:21I'll, like, take a stern tone, but...
00:44:24Okay, I mean, a stern tone is fine. I mean, that's part of parenting, right?
00:44:27Yeah, like, I'll, like, I'll, yeah, like, but I will not, I don't know that I, like,
00:44:39like, scream and get in their faces. Like, I may...
00:44:44That's fine. Yeah, I mean, so if it's just a stern tone, then okay, that's,
00:44:49that's fine, but then the challenge is that you and your wife have very different parenting
00:44:53styles, right? Because you're a stern tone, and she's, like, yelling or screaming, right?
00:44:56I mean, I'm not saying all the time, of course, right, but even if it's occasion.
00:45:01And I can take a stern tone, yeah, like, I won't need to yell, because my voice is deeper,
00:45:06and, you know, I'll be a little bit, you know, like, average build, you know, so, and, you know,
00:45:11when you're a kid, everybody's bigger than you, so it's like, I don't necessarily, like, flex,
00:45:16like, you know, like, maybe my wife might have to.
00:45:19Okay, so has your wife noticed that you don't yell, but, so then why would she need to yell?
00:45:24Um, well, she'll say they won't, they don't even listen to you, kind of like.
00:45:30Oh, so she thinks that your tone doesn't work either, like,
00:45:33she says that your tone of the stern voice.
00:45:36Well, they're, they're still, they're still doing it, and you're not being firm with them,
00:45:41and so that's, like, I kind of take that as, like, a, like, you know.
00:45:46And what does she mean by firm with them? And I apologize for talking about you yelling at
00:45:51your kids, if you just use the stern tone, like, I certainly, I misunderstood or got something
00:45:56wrong, that's totally on me, so I really do apologize, that was unfair to grill you about
00:46:00that when that's not what's happening, but what does your wife mean by listening, or they don't,
00:46:07like, what was the phrase?
00:46:10So I won't yell at my kids, but I will, um, I will get angry at them, and, uh, I have,
00:46:17like, kind of intimidated them, like, bullied them in the past.
00:46:20Okay, sorry, I'm a little confused now, so what do you mean by bullying?
00:46:24Okay, so, like, um, like, my son, he would get really mad, like, he would get upset over
00:46:29something, and I would, like, pick him up, and, like, bring him into another room, and I'd be,
00:46:32hey, man, like, I could spank you, like, I could spank you, but I'm, I'm not going to, because
00:46:37I'm trying to talk with you, and, like, work things out with you, but it's, like,
00:46:41Oh, so you would threaten to hit him?
00:46:43Right, and then I, I, I was, like, I, and so I would maybe do that,
00:46:50like, maybe twice a year.
00:46:51Okay.
00:46:51Like, where things would get.
00:46:53And this is your, uh, how old is your son?
00:46:56Uh, he was 10. I would not do this with any of the girls. He was, like, the only one,
00:47:00but, like, but this was, like,
00:47:01Ah, sexist too, okay. All right, so you would threaten to hit your son,
00:47:07uh, if he didn't do, and can you think of a time or a circumstance where
00:47:13you ended up in, in making that threat or doing that?
00:47:17Right, um, maybe the last time was, like, maybe a year ago.
00:47:22Okay, but what, what did he do that, that you ended up in that situation?
00:47:29I, I couldn't, I couldn't tell you, I just, I just can't remember.
00:47:32I did spank my one daughter probably five, six years ago.
00:47:38Okay, so, sorry, let's, let's go back to you, so we'll get your daughter in a sec,
00:47:41but I just want to understand, uh, uh, the, the sort of aggression that you would display
00:47:44towards your son, uh, you, can you remember any instance that led up to that or,
00:47:49or what you were upset about?
00:47:54Usually it's, you know, uh, very broadly, like, not following directions, which,
00:48:00um, I myself am terrible at, so, um, more hypocrisy.
00:48:04Okay, so, so why, I mean, you, we can all empathize with people who don't follow directions,
00:48:12right? I mean, I, I'm the kind of guy, like, I'll, I'll assemble something barely looking
00:48:16at the instruction manual and sometimes it works and sometimes it really doesn't.
00:48:21Um, so if you, you can empathize with a 10-year-olds, especially if you don't
00:48:26particularly follow directions, including, you know, the peaceful parenting thing a little,
00:48:29uh, you could empathize, you can empathize with your son for not following directions, right?
00:48:35Right, yeah.
00:48:36So why the aggression? What's that, what's going on for you?
00:48:43I, like, I, I, I have full ownership over this, so this is my, my feelings and I'm not,
00:48:50I'm going to explain it here in just a second.
00:48:52So I don't mean to keep grilling you, so yeah, go ahead.
00:48:55Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm explaining to the cabinet, like, sometimes, like, my, my daughters will be,
00:48:59like, uh, you know, you don't discipline your son and you need to do dah, dah, dah, dah.
00:49:03And then, like, my wife has kind of, you know, said those things, like, well,
00:49:07he's just doing it and he's just treating me like this because, you know, you treat,
00:49:11he's, oh, you get, yeah, I was, I was suspecting that, right?
00:49:13So you get goaded into aggressing against your son by the females.
00:49:19That has happened in the past and, well, that probably
00:49:23still does happen and I have total ownership and then I.
00:49:28Uh, no, no, I mean, no, total ownership would be, hey, like,
00:49:32I understand that you're frustrated with him, but intimidation is not going to be the answer.
00:49:37Uh, there have been many times where I've, I've bucked against it.
00:49:40And then many times where I'm like, okay, buddy, hey, you were definitely in the wrong.
00:49:44Like, you're in trouble.
00:49:46Okay.
00:49:46So what does it mean for a 10 year old to be in the wrong?
00:49:50Um, like maybe he would have antagonized his sisters or been rude or mean and,
00:49:56and done something inconsiderate.
00:49:58Um, I surprised that's, that's right.
00:50:03Right.
00:50:03And well, he was even younger when, when these like things had happened on.
00:50:07Oh, so when, when did you sort of the, the threatening to hit the dragon or pull him
00:50:11into a room and threatened to hit him when, what was that age that that started?
00:50:20Six.
00:50:21Six.
00:50:21Okay.
00:50:22And that's because he was bad and doing something mean or wrong or whatever, right?
00:50:27Yeah.
00:50:27Probably before then, maybe, maybe it's probably like five ish.
00:50:30Yeah, I know.
00:50:30There were times when I was rough from before I'm freaking like, I'm such.
00:50:34I'm sorry.
00:50:35I didn't catch that.
00:50:37Sorry.
00:50:37It's probably been, he was probably like, you know, five ish, five, six, somewhere around
00:50:41there.
00:50:42Yeah.
00:50:42Okay.
00:50:43Just think back of all the, so like all the, like I see his anger issues and I'm like,
00:50:47I'm just shaking my head now.
00:50:48And I, I see him at 10 and it's like, it's like programmed in him now.
00:50:52And, uh, my brother's 46 and has all these anger issues and everything too.
00:50:55And he got it from, from our dad.
00:50:58And now it's like, I just see it replicating my, and I'm just, I feel so bad for the, for
00:51:05it because I just completely effed it up.
00:51:08Well, not completely.
00:51:09Hang on.
00:51:10Let's not, let's go from one extreme to another.
00:51:12It's a complete disaster, right?
00:51:13I mean, no, I'm sure you're a pretty good parent, right?
00:51:15So let's not, you know, I mean, you haven't sold them into slavery or there's lots of
00:51:19things, you know, beating them senseless every week.
00:51:22Um, and, um, your father was, uh, aggressive in this way as well.
00:51:28He was aggressive towards my brother.
00:51:30I was the golden child.
00:51:31I could make it maybe like one time where maybe or twice where I got yelled at.
00:51:35So like, yeah, so I got like special treatment and my brother, like got the worst of it.
00:51:42Oh gosh.
00:51:43And how often would he aggress against your brother?
00:51:47They got into it a lot.
00:51:48My brother to this day is a jerk.
00:51:52Um, but wait, hang on.
00:51:55I'm not talking about your brother at 46.
00:51:56We're talking about your brother at four or six.
00:51:59Right.
00:51:59So I mean, uh, I, well, he's five years older than, um, uh, so, you know, there's a lot
00:52:09of stuff that happened that I wasn't necessarily like aware of or things that I saw that, you
00:52:15know, uh, but he, he had always told me like how my dad had like, like hit him or stuff.
00:52:21And like, he and my dad got into like a couple of fights here and there.
00:52:24And then like, no, no, no, he didn't get into a couple of fights with your dad.
00:52:28Your dad's in charge of the entire relationship.
00:52:31Right.
00:52:32I mean, they're not boxers, right?
00:52:35Right.
00:52:35Exactly.
00:52:37No, they're not.
00:52:38Yeah.
00:52:39And so he would get like the slugfest, you know, your dad would assault him or he'd fight
00:52:43back or whatever.
00:52:45Right.
00:52:45Yes.
00:52:46Yeah.
00:52:47And how often did you, um, know this was happening or witness it?
00:52:52Or how often did it happen to your knowledge?
00:52:56I don't know.
00:52:57Maybe I couldn't put maybe every like few months, six months, something like that as
00:53:03a kid growing up.
00:53:04So, I mean, maybe more sparse than that.
00:53:07I can only think of like a handful of times, but it's, it's possible that it happened way
00:53:12more often.
00:53:14Um, yeah.
00:53:15When did you know when that tapered off?
00:53:17Was it like the usual mid-teens?
00:53:20No, like, like it's, well, it tapered off.
00:53:24Yeah.
00:53:25Like, cause then, cause then my brother like started to get into it.
00:53:27Like when he was in his late teens, early twenties, like he was still living at home,
00:53:31he would get into it with like my mom and my dad.
00:53:33And then I fought him.
00:53:34And that was the last time I ever saw him like do that, uh, to my parents.
00:53:41Um, oh, you attacked your brother because he was attacking your parents.
00:53:45Is that right?
00:53:46Yeah.
00:53:46Yeah, exactly.
00:53:47So I came to my parents to that, but my, yeah, my brother was like, yeah.
00:53:51And even to this day, like, I don't, I stopped talking to him a few months ago, uh, just
00:53:56because he's just, it's so tumultuous.
00:53:59You know, it's a mixed bag.
00:54:00You never know what you're going to get when you talk to the guy.
00:54:02And what's your relationship like with your parents?
00:54:04Um, it's okay.
00:54:13It's okay.
00:54:14I, I do care about them, but there's, and I guess I've kind of come to terms with,
00:54:20with certain things, but, uh, um, like stuff.
00:54:27I, I think, I think my dad's at the age of his life where he's just trying to like, keep
00:54:32things together.
00:54:33And so when he, when he passes on, he wants things to just kind of like be okay.
00:54:38And so he's just trying to like, keep the peace or like, you know, and, and go out with
00:54:45stopping.
00:54:45Okay.
00:54:46So it's like, there's been like no real rocking the boats with stuff, but sorry.
00:54:50That's just a bunch of stuff.
00:54:50I don't really understand.
00:54:51Sorry.
00:54:52Cause again, this whole narrative.
00:54:53So what's, uh, what happened with your, uh, your brother's life again?
00:54:57I'm sorry.
00:54:58I know he's not on the call, so we don't have to get into the detail, but sort of big
00:55:00picture stuff.
00:55:02Yeah.
00:55:02A big picture.
00:55:03Um, okay.
00:55:04So he had all these behavioral health issues.
00:55:07Uh, it turns out late teens, he had a brain tumor.
00:55:09We have no idea how much that affected his, you know, ability to, to reason, negotiate,
00:55:14whatever, but he has virtually no friends.
00:55:17He has an it job from home, does help desk jobs.
00:55:19He has virtually no friends.
00:55:21He has an it job from home, does help desk stuff online.
00:55:23Sorry.
00:55:25Sorry.
00:55:25I know I said be brief, maybe not that brief.
00:55:27So your brother, when did they discover the brain tumor?
00:55:33He was, let's see, this is a 90.
00:55:35He was, he was probably just shy of 20 ish, maybe 18 ish.
00:55:39Okay.
00:55:39So your parents might've been assaulting him because of behavior that came from a brain
00:55:43tumor.
00:55:45Right.
00:55:46Yeah.
00:55:47I mean, what do you think of that?
00:55:49Um, that's like calling a kid lazy because he's going through chemo.
00:55:53Right.
00:55:55Right.
00:55:55Right.
00:55:56That's the thing is like, we've never known how much, because it was like, he's been on
00:55:59this medicine.
00:55:59That's like shrunk it to like non-existent, but he has to continue to take the medicine.
00:56:04Um, but we had no idea how long that, uh, a plate.
00:56:08And so everyone's tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.
00:56:11And no matter how like violent or bad or things have gotten, we've always like, like a cooling
00:56:16off period of a few months.
00:56:17And then it's like, okay, Hey, don't worry.
00:56:19We still love you.
00:56:21You know, like we bring it back into all of our lives.
00:56:23And then a few months later, everything falls out of like kind of self-sabotaging behavior.
00:56:28And then everything falls to pieces and then, uh, wash, rinse, repeat the cycle.
00:56:35Like it's cooling off.
00:56:36You mean it's violent, is that right?
00:56:42Violent.
00:56:42And you know, if you want to talk about verbally abusive, like this guy is the textbook definition
00:56:49of that.
00:56:49And does he have to have an operation for his tumor or did they shrink it using radiation
00:56:54or chemo or some other method?
00:56:56He's been taking some meds for years that have, that have shrunk it.
00:56:58He did not want to have the, the operation.
00:57:00Oh, shrunk the tumor.
00:57:02Right.
00:57:03Yeah.
00:57:03Oh, but it's still there.
00:57:04Is that right?
00:57:07We don't know what the size of it is, but I think it's from like what he has told us
00:57:11is that it's under control, whatever that means.
00:57:14Okay.
00:57:15Yeah.
00:57:15They have a sort of weight to the approach to it, as far as I understand it.
00:57:19Okay.
00:57:21Um, and how are your parents when, when you were growing up, how were they with each other?
00:57:26Oh, they fought all the time.
00:57:28They were an unhappy couple.
00:57:30Even, even to this day, my dad did not want to be in that relationship.
00:57:34And I always was like, well, I've just kind of been along for the ride.
00:57:38I'm like, well, where were you pop?
00:57:39Like what?
00:57:41Why didn't you work?
00:57:41Oh, sorry.
00:57:43I didn't quite understand.
00:57:44He says he's along for the ride.
00:57:45What would you mean with the marriage?
00:57:48He, he, he didn't say that, but that's an essence, his attitude, right?
00:57:53Like my mom wanted all the kids.
00:57:55He didn't want to have any kids.
00:57:56She did.
00:57:57So he gave her the kids.
00:57:59They keep her busy.
00:58:00Oh, so he appeases the women in his life.
00:58:03Like you do.
00:58:04Right.
00:58:04That's right.
00:58:05Yeah.
00:58:05Okay.
00:58:06All right.
00:58:07So does he claim to be a victim?
00:58:10I wouldn't say that he claims to be a victim out like just along for the ride.
00:58:17She wanted kids.
00:58:18I didn't.
00:58:18So I gave her a kiss.
00:58:20I don't have the life I want because I was appeasing my wife.
00:58:23That sounds like a victim to me.
00:58:24I could be wrong.
00:58:25Of course.
00:58:26Yeah, it's, it's the passive aggressive kind of thing.
00:58:30Like, yeah, he, he, he is like an essence of victim, um, without saying he's a victim,
00:58:36you know, like just the, the things that are like, well, I gave up such and such.
00:58:39I didn't do that.
00:58:40I don't know.
00:58:41You know, sorry.
00:58:42Did your brothers, how was your brother's tumor discovered?
00:58:44Just sorry to jump back for a second.
00:58:47He went in for a vision test and he couldn't get to the docs.
00:58:50Like, oh, we can't get the vision, right.
00:58:52And whatever this, you know, he kept not focusing or something like that.
00:58:56And the doc was like, um, need to scan.
00:58:59Yeah.
00:59:00Yeah.
00:59:00And so, yeah.
00:59:02And then something, something after like the, the vision test, like he just couldn't get
00:59:05there, but a glass prescription, right.
00:59:07Or something.
00:59:07And then they took him in and they did the scan.
00:59:09I guess there was something pressing on his nerve, his vision nerves, right.
00:59:13Okay.
00:59:14Right.
00:59:15Okay.
00:59:16And did, uh, did your brother ever done any talk therapy or anything like that?
00:59:22Yeah, he has.
00:59:23Yep.
00:59:23He, he like continues to see a shrink.
00:59:25Oh, okay.
00:59:27And, and it's like, he, he's quote unquote, putting in the work, you know, popular phrase,
00:59:32but he's not dating or he doesn't date or get been married or.
00:59:36No, like it, it's just, yeah.
00:59:39Every, it's very, just a very sad situation.
00:59:41It's subjective.
00:59:42Like this.
00:59:44Yeah.
00:59:44No, no social skills whatsoever.
00:59:46Just, um, like he flies to Amsterdam.
00:59:50Um, did he, did he have social skills when he was younger?
00:59:55I know he's older than you.
00:59:56I don't know if you remember much of that.
00:59:58Yeah.
00:59:58Like he had a few friends, but he was all like, he would get into fights with people
01:00:03and it was always, oh, so-and-so, you know, he'd be a friend with somebody and then,
01:00:07oh, so-and-so's a jerk.
01:00:07I don't like him.
01:00:08And so he would just like fall out of friendships with, with people a lot.
01:00:12And then, yeah.
01:00:14And then, uh, you know, out of high school, like, uh, he didn't even attend his own,
01:00:17like high school graduation.
01:00:18Like he's like, oh, this is stupid.
01:00:19I don't know why, you know, always very bitter.
01:00:23Now, how often did you see your parents fighting or not getting along?
01:00:28Pretty, pretty often.
01:00:29Like, and my mom was very dramatic about stuff.
01:00:32Um, yeah, it was very like out in the open.
01:00:34Like, like she would leave a phone book open, like, oh, for attorneys or like,
01:00:41I know.
01:00:41So she would threaten divorce, like almost like the way you threaten your son.
01:00:47Yeah.
01:00:47Okay.
01:00:48And, uh, she would, um, I remember one time she was like trying to, she was like writing
01:00:54a story of like all of the stuff that she had been through and all of the stuff that
01:00:57my dad had put her through.
01:00:58And then like, she's like, oh, all the stuff your dad had put her through.
01:01:01So she's also a victim.
01:01:03Right.
01:01:03Right.
01:01:03Exactly.
01:01:04Yeah.
01:01:05And what, what are her major complaints?
01:01:06Like, what does she consider that your dad has put her through?
01:01:12Um, well, he never helps out.
01:01:15Uh, he, well, uh, you know, that, that, well, that, that he was lazy.
01:01:22He never loved her, which is true.
01:01:23You know, like never wore a ring and he like never said, I love you.
01:01:26I don't think I've ever heard him like say that.
01:01:28Yeah.
01:01:28But she accepted that, right.
01:01:29She chose to date him, to get engaged, to marry, to have kids.
01:01:32So she, she got blamed.
01:01:33She can't blame, can't blame people for something that you accept.
01:01:36Does it?
01:01:37I mean, if I accept to work for 10 bucks an hour, I mean, how do I get to blame people
01:01:41for paying 10 bucks an hour?
01:01:42It's even kind of odd to me.
01:01:43Anyway, go on.
01:01:44Yeah.
01:01:45Um, uh, he had been married before and had a kid and he kept that from her and she didn't
01:01:49find that out until like they were engaged.
01:01:51And then, um, he also cheated on her in the eighties.
01:01:54Um, and like almost left her, but then didn't leave her.
01:02:00Um, so they're codependent and blame each other.
01:02:02It's the usual sad story.
01:02:03Right.
01:02:03Okay.
01:02:04Yeah.
01:02:04Got it.
01:02:05Yeah.
01:02:05Addicted to each other and blame each other.
01:02:08Yeah.
01:02:10Would you have, sorry, go ahead.
01:02:11Sorry, go ahead.
01:02:12Uh, yeah, yeah.
01:02:13Then, uh, um, uh, she chased him around the house with a knife one time.
01:02:17I think that was probably the time that she found out that he was cheating.
01:02:20Uh, and then she would like allude to that like numerous times, like, uh, like,
01:02:24so, so he wanted to like bury that.
01:02:25And so like us older ones didn't, or the younger ones,
01:02:31he wanted to like bury the affair and like never talk about it again.
01:02:34Like, I guess they moved on past that, but, um, she would like.
01:02:38Occasionally when fights would get really heated, she would be like, oh, you don't
01:02:41want me to tell the kids about so-and-so do you, you know?
01:02:44And then that would just, just, she would just go to him.
01:02:47And how often would they, I mean, I know you said quite often, but was it like weekly daily?
01:02:55I would probably something monthly weeklies, you know, I, I, again, I can't remember, but I just
01:03:01know that the tension is pretty continuous, right?
01:03:03Yeah.
01:03:04Yeah, exactly.
01:03:05I guess that's probably the, he would bury himself in solitaire.
01:03:08He would go to work and they would come home and he would just play, play solitaire.
01:03:12I knew he loved me.
01:03:13I knew he cared about me.
01:03:14We just didn't, I didn't have a whole lot of memories of stuff that we did together.
01:03:17And how, how did you know that he left you?
01:03:20Um, well, I, I was the golden child, so I kind of got like whatever I want.
01:03:23And he was like, no, no, sorry, sorry.
01:03:25Hang on.
01:03:26Did you say that you didn't spend much time with your dad?
01:03:29Well, yeah, but I didn't realize that I wanted it at the time when, when I got older, he spent
01:03:33time with me.
01:03:34Hang on, hang on.
01:03:36What do you mean?
01:03:36You didn't realize you wanted time with your dad?
01:03:39What do you, what are you talking about?
01:03:41As a kid, like, um, so I was put on Ritalin because I was, uh, rambunctious and I, that's
01:03:49not an excuse, but that's just like, you know, like, I couldn't concentrate.
01:03:52And how old were you when you were drugged?
01:03:53Seven, eight.
01:03:57Okay.
01:03:57So your parents put you on that, right?
01:03:59They, they took the, I mean, I assume that they're the ones who have to say yes or no.
01:04:02Right.
01:04:03Yeah.
01:04:03And it was the same thing.
01:04:04Like my dad, my dad was like, well, I never, I didn't think that you should have, uh,
01:04:08been put on that anyway, but I didn't really have a choice in that.
01:04:11I was like, well, where the hell were you pop?
01:04:12Like, sorry, why wouldn't you have a choice?
01:04:14Right.
01:04:15Exactly.
01:04:15That, this is like kind of more along that, that theme of like, along for the ride, like,
01:04:19well, I oppose things, but no one really listened to me.
01:04:21So, oh yeah.
01:04:23Yeah.
01:04:23And then you marry a woman who doesn't feel the kids listen to her.
01:04:26She has no control.
01:04:27Okay.
01:04:28All right.
01:04:30So, so what do you mean when you say that you didn't know that you wanted time with
01:04:35I mean, if you had had time with your dad, that was enjoyable, you would, you would do
01:04:39that, right?
01:04:40Yeah.
01:04:40Yeah.
01:04:40It'd be like, I guess maybe I thought it was sufficient or I was just getting by doing
01:04:48all right.
01:04:49Like I kept myself busy, you know, and like, I, I think I kind of met the Victorian era
01:04:54definition of kids, which is they shouldn't be seen or heard.
01:04:56So I played video games a lot and I played with Legos.
01:04:59Uh-huh.
01:04:59So I was just kind of like out of this.
01:05:01And then like, you know, when I was on my riddle and I was just kind of like, well,
01:05:04you know, kind of tucked away and did my thing.
01:05:06And so you've been neglected to enjoy your company.
01:05:09Did she want to play board games with you or go for walks with you or play with you?
01:05:15Like when we were younger, but like, so we moved to Russia in 91.
01:05:19My dad worked for the state department.
01:05:20We were, we moved to Russia in 91 and we were there for a couple of years.
01:05:23And then like, like when we moved there and then when we moved to the United States,
01:05:27there for a couple of years.
01:05:27And then like, like when we moved there and then when we moved back, like,
01:05:30like life was just totally different.
01:05:32Sorry.
01:05:33How long were you in Russia?
01:05:35Uh, two years, two years.
01:05:36Okay.
01:05:37Uh, and how old were you?
01:05:40Uh, I was 91.
01:05:42I was nine.
01:05:44So what the hell are you?
01:05:45What, what, what, what the hell did you do in Russia for two years?
01:05:48Uh, so we lived on the embassy and English school or whatever, right?
01:05:54Yeah.
01:05:54And so when you're on the embassy, like, there's like,
01:05:58it's literally like a couple of acres and like the outer perimeter wall
01:06:02and then housing on the inside.
01:06:04And they were just kids everywhere all the time.
01:06:06There was always something to do.
01:06:07So like, it was always, always playing with it, but not my parents, but not my parents.
01:06:13No, no, no, no.
01:06:13Like my dad was always like, we went out and we went to like the marketplaces and things
01:06:18like we did like those things.
01:06:19So I learned how to speak Russian and, and I kind of get around.
01:06:22We were there when the wall came down.
01:06:23So that was really cool.
01:06:25It's kind of funny how your dad is.
01:06:27I don't know.
01:06:27I'm not saying what he exactly did, but you know, state department, he's really into
01:06:31managing relationships and he can't even manage the relationship with his wife and kids.
01:06:35Right.
01:06:36Yeah.
01:06:37Yeah.
01:06:38Yeah.
01:06:38Well, it's interesting.
01:06:40You talk with some men and they'll, they'll tell you like how great their careers are.
01:06:43And then, you know, you ask about their home life and it's like absolutely terrible.
01:06:46It's like, I feel like I'm a diplomat.
01:06:48Can you be diplomatic with your wife and kids?
01:06:49Oh, hell no.
01:06:51But Russians, yes.
01:06:51Wife and kids.
01:06:52No.
01:06:53Okay.
01:06:53Right.
01:06:54Got it.
01:06:55All right.
01:06:55So, um, when you were young, I mean, how much do you remember your parents seeking out your
01:07:02company, uh, wanting to enjoy your company, spend time with you, play with you?
01:07:12Not a whole lot.
01:07:14Um, I mean, you know, like just from time to time we would, we didn't do a whole lot
01:07:20of family.
01:07:23We, we had, we went on a couple of family vacations as a kid.
01:07:27I think twice we went to the beach before we moved to Moscow.
01:07:30And then in Moscow, like twice you went to the beach.
01:07:34Yeah.
01:07:34Only twice.
01:07:36Yeah.
01:07:37Dad works for the state department.
01:07:39You're not broke.
01:07:40Um, yeah, we didn't do a whole lot.
01:07:44Um, um, yeah.
01:07:48Yeah.
01:07:50That's terrible.
01:07:50I'm so sorry.
01:07:52Yeah.
01:07:54I mean, what do you think it did to your mind that your parents didn't really seem to enjoy
01:07:59your company or want to spend time with you?
01:08:02I, I, I think I, I managed all right from there, but what I realized was just how far
01:08:12behind I was in kind of like life skills and managing things.
01:08:16Okay.
01:08:16So that's very intellectual.
01:08:17I'm talking about how did you feel?
01:08:24I think at the time it really didn't bother me and I, and I'm not trying to defend them.
01:08:29I just, well, you, I mean, you must've given up then.
01:08:33Yeah.
01:08:33I think that's, that's probably what it was is I just kind of like, like, okay, well,
01:08:38so you could have no effect, right?
01:08:40You could have no effect.
01:08:41You couldn't win.
01:08:42You couldn't get their interest.
01:08:44They were too selfish.
01:08:45They were too self-absorbed.
01:08:46They were too fighting with each other or some career shit or something.
01:08:49So you gave up, you retreated to your room, your computer, right?
01:08:56Yeah.
01:08:56And played video games.
01:08:57Yeah.
01:08:58So that's, that's a kind of despair, right?
01:09:01Yeah.
01:09:02Is that fair to say?
01:09:05Yeah.
01:09:06I'm so sorry.
01:09:07That's very, it's very sad.
01:09:10It's very sad.
01:09:12I mean, I, I just by the by, I mean, my daughter's
01:09:1415 and a half and I did my show this morning and then we, my wife's got some stuff to do.
01:09:20So my daughter and I had lunch and then we went out for a nice long hike in nature.
01:09:26And then we went to a bookstore and then we went to get some frozen yogurt and then,
01:09:30you know, just, you know, the delightful couple of hours.
01:09:33And, you know, I'm aware that she's getting older and, you know,
01:09:37other things are going to overtake before long.
01:09:39So I'm just drinking deep at the Oasis while it's still around.
01:09:42And I mean, I just, and I tell her,
01:09:44you know, at least once a week, sometimes to her occasional embarrassment, just how much
01:09:50I appreciate her and enjoy her company and feel really privileged to, to have her in my life.
01:09:56And that's.
01:09:58I feel the same way with my kids.
01:10:01Like I see my 15 year old and, but things have gotten so bad with like the, the fighting and
01:10:05stuff.
01:10:06Like I try to tell like my kids, like, Oh, I love them and stuff.
01:10:11Yeah.
01:10:12Okay.
01:10:12Yeah.
01:10:13We'll, we'll get to that and I will get to that, but I'm trying to sort of figure out
01:10:17how, you know, your father loves you when he doesn't really want to seem,
01:10:20seem to want to spend much, if any time with you.
01:10:23Yeah.
01:10:23When you were a kid.
01:10:25Yeah.
01:10:31Well, I know he always wanted to see me succeed.
01:10:35And that could be for status.
01:10:37That could be for, I mean, if you really want to see your kids succeed, don't you
01:10:40tell them you love them and want to spend time with them and enjoy their company?
01:10:43Cause that's going to help your kids succeed.
01:10:44Isn't it?
01:10:46Okay.
01:10:47So, so the bare minimum time that he did spend with me.
01:10:56You know, he, he did want me to do well and he encouraged me to do better.
01:11:01And so, so there wasn't anything discouraging, like maybe I would do it to my son.
01:11:05Right.
01:11:05Like, so like I'll, I I've been rude and mean to my son before, like a total jerk.
01:11:10And my dad never really did any of that stuff to me.
01:11:16Which means you pay more attention to your son than he did to you.
01:11:21Right.
01:11:23Okay.
01:11:23So let's go back to how do you know, or how did you know that your father loved you when
01:11:30you were a kid?
01:11:32Or what made you think that?
01:11:35I guess he wasn't necessarily mean to me.
01:11:40Okay.
01:11:40That's pretty thin fucking gruel.
01:11:42Isn't it?
01:11:44Yeah.
01:11:45That's like really some really watery porridge you got got on the table there.
01:11:49Yeah.
01:11:51Okay.
01:11:52And you, did you say, if I understood this correctly, he got a little better as you got
01:11:55older.
01:11:57Yeah.
01:11:57Like, so now that I've gotten older.
01:11:59No, no.
01:11:59I mean, as a teenager.
01:12:01Oh yeah.
01:12:02Yeah.
01:12:02As a teenager, like, yeah.
01:12:03Then it was like, Hey, let's go like do some bike rides and things.
01:12:06And, uh, we like did a cross country, uh, trip and, um, I think what happened was my
01:12:14sister had a lot of medical problems.
01:12:16And so my mom was like, kind of.
01:12:21Um, it would like, was caught up in taking care of her a lot.
01:12:26And my older brother.
01:12:30Yeah.
01:12:30Yeah.
01:12:31So, so my brother, like, like was full functioning, except, you know, he had his
01:12:36anger issues.
01:12:37Um, and he, he was like, he was doing really well during the tech boom.
01:12:41So he had like a lot of money.
01:12:43Um, and this is, you know, late, uh, late nineties, early 2000.
01:12:46Oh, I remember the tech boom very well.
01:12:48It was good times.
01:12:49Yeah.
01:12:50So he was, he was doing all right there.
01:12:52And then, uh, uh, but my sister had a lot of medical problems.
01:12:55So my mom was busy helping her.
01:12:57And then I was kind of like coming of age in my mid teens.
01:13:00And so my dad was like, oh, okay.
01:13:01Yeah.
01:13:01You know, let's hang out.
01:13:02Let's go do stuff.
01:13:03And so it was like, you know, I was the only one left to really kind of like, okay.
01:13:06So when he, when he kind of ran out of everyone else, he took up with you.
01:13:13I was fine with, I'm sorry.
01:13:16No, no, I'm, uh, I'm making light of it, but I shouldn't be.
01:13:20All right.
01:13:23And so what's your, were your, were your parents, uh, good, good parents?
01:13:31Oh, heck.
01:13:33Uh, no.
01:13:45Okay.
01:13:45And have you talked to them?
01:13:47I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, right.
01:13:49I'm just curious.
01:13:49Have you talked to them about the limitations that you perceived in their parenting or the
01:13:55things that hurt you or made you feel alone?
01:13:58Yes.
01:13:59And, uh, my, uh,
01:14:05yeah, yes.
01:14:05My father has come to the defense of my mother.
01:14:08Um, and my mother has, uh, defended her actions and like, well, you know, the, the, the, the
01:14:13usual thing.
01:14:14And you've said it many times, you said, well, we did this.
01:14:15We did what we had.
01:14:17Um, and, uh, yeah, so there's, there's been, uh, but no real progress.
01:14:25Um, you know, and I, I've, I've had it out with them.
01:14:27Uh, like I've, I've had it out with them.
01:14:30What do you mean?
01:14:32Well, like, you know, I, I really told like, Hey, you know, well, you know, my, my brother
01:14:36suffered because of like these things that you did and, you know, you, uh, you know,
01:14:40because of like you guys fighting and yada, yada, yada.
01:14:43Um, you know, that, that really helped me.
01:14:45So did you?
01:14:47Yeah.
01:14:47Yeah.
01:14:47Like, we, like, we all suffered and then like, because you guys fought, like you guys
01:14:50never gave us like any relationship advice.
01:14:53And so like, look at like, you know, uh, yeah, if you could say the names, I'd appreciate
01:14:57it, but sorry.
01:14:57Go ahead.
01:14:58Yeah.
01:14:58Okay.
01:15:00Like that, you know, you look, look at my brother, you looked at me and, you know, like
01:15:04I had a difficult time, like navigating relationships and such.
01:15:07And, um, and you're like, well, you know, but you know, no one really showed us.
01:15:12And so, you know, but we did all right.
01:15:13And, you know, you guys, you know, but it's like, wait, are they, are they putting your
01:15:18brother in the category of people who did all right?
01:15:21Right.
01:15:21Like, well, you know, but just some people are the way they are.
01:15:23And some, you know, and it's, it's all just excuses.
01:15:26Okay.
01:15:28All right.
01:15:28So they've not taken any responsibility for any of their actions, right?
01:15:33Right.
01:15:34And what's the value do they bring to your life as a whole?
01:15:40Um, I mean, they did great harm, right.
01:15:43And they have not taken any ownership or apologize for anything.
01:15:46So what, uh, I mean, do you, do you expect your kids,
01:15:51uh, I mean, you said that, you know, if your, your, your son was mean, right.
01:15:55You'd get really upset, right.
01:15:57Even when he was five years old, right.
01:16:00Right.
01:16:00Right.
01:16:01So hang on, hang on.
01:16:02So your son at five really has to take responsibility for the mean things he does, right.
01:16:09But your parents in their seventies or eighties or however old they are, apparently don't.
01:16:16Right.
01:16:17So you're fine imposing massive free will and moral standards on your five-year-old,
01:16:25just not on your parents.
01:16:29Well, uh, yeah, I guess to that end, right.
01:16:36I mean, wasn't your five-year-old doing the best he could with the knowledge he had?
01:16:41Right.
01:16:41Right.
01:16:42And that wasn't good enough, right.
01:16:44Right.
01:16:45Right.
01:16:46How dare you hit this on your kid and not your parents.
01:16:52Which is why I've tried to kind of like ease up and say, you know, and not be as,
01:16:59as harsh on him because I realized like, uh,
01:17:07like, Hey, like, I, like, I, I've, I've recognized that all these things are wrong.
01:17:10And at some point he's going to like be bigger than me and like, okay.
01:17:14So that's, that's why I've like, I tried.
01:17:18No, no.
01:17:18It means you don't have any moral standards as far as this stuff goes.
01:17:21I'm not saying you're an immoral person in general.
01:17:23Right.
01:17:25But if you say, well, I have to hold my five-year-old or my 10-year-old or my 50-year-old,
01:17:30they're morally responsible for the mean things they do.
01:17:32But my parents, you know, they've never apologized.
01:17:34Never take any ownership and the, but that's okay.
01:17:36They still love me.
01:17:38So does that mean like cutting them out?
01:17:40Like, I don't know like how to deal with.
01:17:42Cause like, we already don't, don't see them a lot.
01:17:44Like maybe once every couple of months and like, you know,
01:17:47I talked to him like maybe once a month, maybe every couple of weeks,
01:17:51you know, like, but like, I, I just don't know how to handle,
01:17:57you know, cause I already kind of keep them at arm's length.
01:17:59I mean, they, they love, like, they're very good around our children.
01:18:02Like my, my dad is very good around our kids.
01:18:07Right.
01:18:08So it's like, why, why do they get, right.
01:18:09And I've seen this with plenty of grandparents.
01:18:11That's sadistic in my view.
01:18:13Uh-huh.
01:18:14Like, why are you so good with your grandkids?
01:18:16But it's saying, Hey man, you know, we're great with kids.
01:18:18It must've been you.
01:18:23Well, great with kids.
01:18:26Yeah.
01:18:30My concern is the aggression that you have.
01:18:33I'm trying to figure out the cause of the aggression.
01:18:36Yeah.
01:18:36Now your father was aggressive with your mother, right?
01:18:39Right.
01:18:40And then my brother, sorry, go ahead.
01:18:42Yeah.
01:18:43And my brother was also aggressive as well.
01:18:44So there's plenty of,
01:18:45No, but your father was aggressive to your brother too.
01:18:48Right.
01:18:49Right.
01:18:50And, uh, he's, and you say he's, he's both capable of being incredibly abusive
01:18:56towards your brother and of great love.
01:19:00Right.
01:19:01Right.
01:19:02Like, I think you might have to pick a lane there.
01:19:06Right.
01:19:06Right.
01:19:07Yeah.
01:19:07Yeah.
01:19:08Can you be incredibly abusive or at least abusive and also loving?
01:19:17That would be.
01:19:20Cause you're, you're trying to do the two to some degree.
01:19:22Right.
01:19:23I'm not saying incredibly abusive, right.
01:19:24But you know, threatening your son and, and all of that,
01:19:28but I would turn out more in the past, right.
01:19:30More in the past.
01:19:31Yeah.
01:19:32But.
01:19:33That would be abusive.
01:19:35Well, I mean, it's pretty scary, right.
01:19:37Where's this level of aggression coming from?
01:19:39It comes from not condemning aggression.
01:19:44Right.
01:19:44Whatever we condemn, we just don't do.
01:19:46You condemn robbing banks, right?
01:19:48I mean, Hey, we all know in the modern system, it's the bank's job to rob us.
01:19:51We don't want to interfere with that predation.
01:19:54Right.
01:19:55But there are things that you just won't do because you morally condemn them.
01:19:59So the only reason you'd be aggressive is you haven't condemned it.
01:20:04So then the question is why haven't you condemned it?
01:20:06Well, because that would be to really judge your parents, right?
01:20:12Right.
01:20:13And if you're like, well, you know, they still, they're great with the kids.
01:20:16They, they still showed love when I was a kid and, and, you know, blah, blah, blah,
01:20:20blah, blah.
01:20:21Well, then you haven't condemned the aggression.
01:20:23You haven't held them accountable and you can't hold them accountable, except in your
01:20:26own mind, right?
01:20:27Cause you can't hold other people accountable.
01:20:28We're not judge juries.
01:20:29Right, right.
01:20:31Right.
01:20:32So in your mind though, it's kind of okay.
01:20:35And so if aggression is kind of okay, then you're going to be aggressive because it's
01:20:40kind of okay.
01:20:41Right.
01:20:42The only way that we stop behavior is absolutely unacceptable.
01:20:47It's absolutely unacceptable.
01:20:49And that's a universal thing.
01:20:51It's not just absolutely unacceptable for you, but okay for your parents, right?
01:20:56Cause that's not absolute, right?
01:20:58Absolute is universal, right?
01:21:00You don't say, well, I'm not going to rob a bank in this town, but one town and over
01:21:03is totally fine.
01:21:05Right, right, right.
01:21:06So it's absolutely unacceptable to aggress against children.
01:21:09Absolutely unacceptable.
01:21:11Okay.
01:21:11So that way you stop aggressing against your own children, but then you have the problem
01:21:15of your judgment of your father and your mother.
01:21:19Right, right.
01:21:21So that's the hole through which the aggression comes pouring through is you have not judged.
01:21:28Now people say, oh, but if I judge my parents, what do I do?
01:21:31I don't know.
01:21:32I don't care because that's not philosophy.
01:21:35That's pragmatism.
01:21:36Philosophy is, is it okay to abuse children, to neglect them, to use aggression against
01:21:43them and so on?
01:21:44Well, no, of course it's absolutely unacceptable.
01:21:46It's unacceptable for you.
01:21:47It's unacceptable for me.
01:21:48It's unacceptable for Bob in Alaska.
01:21:51And it's unacceptable for your mother and your father.
01:21:53Now say, ah, yes, but if I make this judgment, what do I do about it?
01:21:56It's like, I don't care.
01:21:58I do care that it becomes absolutely unacceptable for you to be aggressive.
01:22:05Because, and we will get into your wife here.
01:22:06The whole point of this, I understand is about your wife, right?
01:22:08But we need to sort of, where's the, where's the aggression permission coming from?
01:22:14Right, right.
01:22:15And it comes from, my parents are, you know, not, not ideal, but you know, it's okay.
01:22:20And right.
01:22:21You haven't gotten to that place where it's like, no, they did some really terrible things
01:22:25and they're not taking any ownership.
01:22:27And that's unacceptable.
01:22:28Now, whether you call them every couple, I don't, I don't know.
01:22:31I don't care.
01:22:31That's not the important thing.
01:22:32The important thing is the line that's drawn in your head.
01:22:34Like this shit does not happen.
01:22:36This is not okay.
01:22:37It never was, never will be, never is.
01:22:42Never, never, never.
01:22:44Right?
01:22:45Not in public versus private, not here, there, near the car, out at the funeral, never.
01:22:50Right.
01:22:51And it never was right.
01:22:53Right.
01:22:54And my parents' bullshit excuses don't change a goddamn thing.
01:22:58It was never right.
01:22:59And they know it and they knew it.
01:23:01They didn't do it in public either.
01:23:02Right.
01:23:08Did they constantly yell at each other and bicker and in public?
01:23:19Sorry, I'm not sure if you heard the question.
01:23:21Uh, yeah, no, I'm, uh, I'm trying to remember.
01:23:25I just think they did.
01:23:28Oh, so they were like Bickerton's, uh, even in, in dinner parties and at restaurants and
01:23:33they would just yell at each other or.
01:23:35Um, yeah, they, like,
01:23:38you think that might cost your, your, your, your dad a little bit of his career, but all
01:23:42right, that's what they did.
01:23:43That's what they did.
01:23:44We never went out anywhere, but there were a couple of times we had gone out and they
01:23:50like did get into like these small little spats and stuff.
01:23:54Okay.
01:23:54But not as big as at home.
01:23:57No.
01:23:57Okay.
01:23:58So they could manage to control their behavior.
01:24:00Okay.
01:24:01Yeah.
01:24:01For the most part.
01:24:02Okay.
01:24:03Got it.
01:24:04Got it.
01:24:09Was it ever acceptable to be neglected and aggressed against by your parents?
01:24:21What do you mean?
01:24:23Was it ever okay?
01:24:23Was it ever acceptable?
01:24:25Do you give them excuses?
01:24:26Do you accept their excuses?
01:24:30No, no, no.
01:24:32Okay.
01:24:33So if you don't accept their excuses.
01:24:36Then I can't do it for myself.
01:24:38Well, hang on.
01:24:39Yes, that's true.
01:24:40But there's one step before that.
01:24:43So their excuses are false, right?
01:24:46Because they didn't give you those excuses when you were a kid, right?
01:24:49So your dad said to you as a kid, you said this a little while ago.
01:24:52I'm not trying to catch you out.
01:24:53I'm just sort of pointing out these contradictions, right?
01:24:55So you said that your dad told you like he was really committed to you being better,
01:25:00to you improving, getting better marks, getting better grades and so on, right?
01:25:05Is that right?
01:25:06Yes.
01:25:07Okay.
01:25:07So your dad was all about improvement.
01:25:09Like you've got to do better, kid.
01:25:10You got to step it up.
01:25:11You got to, right?
01:25:13You got to do better, right?
01:25:14Okay.
01:25:15Fantastic.
01:25:16Okay.
01:25:18So your dad is all about studying to improve things, right?
01:25:24And spent zero time self-improvement himself.
01:25:27Well, I mean, he didn't.
01:25:28Did he ever crack a book on parenting?
01:25:29Because he's all about improve, right?
01:25:32No, I think he expected my mom to do all that.
01:25:36Well, I don't know what he thought or didn't think, but he didn't do what he told you was
01:25:41the most important thing or a very important thing, which was to continually read, study
01:25:45and improve, right?
01:25:47Right.
01:25:48If you had said to your dad when he was saying, kid, you got to read, study and improve.
01:25:52If you were to say, hey, you know, the important thing is I'll just do the best with whatever
01:25:56knowledge I have, right?
01:25:58I mean, if I don't study for an exam, I'll just write the exam and I'll just do the best
01:26:04that I can with the knowledge I have or I don't have with regards to the exam.
01:26:09If you were to say that, you know, maybe I'll study, maybe I won't, but I'll take the exam
01:26:12and I'll just do the best I can with the knowledge I have, what would he say?
01:26:19No.
01:26:20No, no, I'm just doing the best I can.
01:26:22I mean, this is your parenting, right?
01:26:23This is your parenting, dad.
01:26:25Your parenting is you just do the best you can with the knowledge you have and, you know,
01:26:29fuck it, just see what happens, right?
01:26:31Don't study, just, you know, go on your gut instinct or go on whatever, right?
01:26:36You don't study, you don't learn, you don't improve, right?
01:26:39So, if you were to say that to him, he'd say, no, you got to study, kid, right?
01:26:43That's just lazy, right?
01:26:46And that's not productive, that's not going to work.
01:26:48You can't just not study and then just do the best you can with the knowledge you have,
01:26:52what are you, some kind of idiot?
01:26:57Isn't that what he would say?
01:26:59Yeah.
01:27:00So, he's totally full of shit.
01:27:02Yeah.
01:27:03So, he's a complete hypocrite because he imposed rules upon you when you were five and seven
01:27:08and ten that he wasn't studying at a far more important thing, which is parenting,
01:27:13than a fucking spelling bee when you're a kid or a test, a grammar test or whatever math test.
01:27:19So, he's saying you should never be content with the knowledge you have, you should always
01:27:23work to seek and improve your knowledge and it's really, really important for a geometry test
01:27:27when you're eight but not my entire fucking parenting.
01:27:31Right.
01:27:31So, he's a total hypocrite.
01:27:33Yeah.
01:27:34And then, because he commanded you or encouraged you or exhorted you to improve your knowledge,
01:27:41right?
01:27:43To get better, to get more knowledgeable and you would never have as an excuse,
01:27:47I did the best I could with the knowledge I had, but that's the excuse he uses
01:27:51for 25 years of parenting or 20 years of parenting, right?
01:27:56Right, right.
01:27:56So, it's a total lie.
01:28:00He's got no, I mean, you tell people to improve, you can't say
01:28:03improvement is not necessary.
01:28:05You tell a kid to improve, you can't say as an adult,
01:28:08improvement is not necessary.
01:28:09I'm sure he studied things for his career, right?
01:28:11I'm sure he studied Russian or whatever culture or history or whatever to go and
01:28:14get the post in Russia.
01:28:14So, yeah, I mean, he just, he's got no excuse.
01:28:18Yeah.
01:28:19So, what this means is that he's completely and totally happy, happy, I tell you, happy
01:28:27to gaslight you and lie to you about the central pain in your life,
01:28:31which is causing a lot of problems with your kids and in particular with your wife.
01:28:36So, he won't give you any relief.
01:28:38He won't put aside his own comfort to help you by accepting his responsibility for what he did.
01:28:45He won't model any self-ownership.
01:28:48He'll just make excuses and watch your marriage slide into the shitter rather than be honest
01:28:54and take some responsibility for how he was as a father.
01:28:57And you call this love?
01:28:59He's sacrificing your marriage in part to preserve his own immediate comfort
01:29:05so that he doesn't have to say or do anything uncomfortable or take any responsibility.
01:29:09And he's also modeling that the patriarch doesn't take responsibility.
01:29:14Right, right.
01:29:15I mean, does he know how?
01:29:16He knows.
01:29:17He would know exactly how damaging that is to you, right?
01:29:20Right.
01:29:20And yet he's doing it and he's got no problem doing it.
01:29:24When did you confront him?
01:29:26About a year ago.
01:29:27Right.
01:29:27So, a year, you've said, you know, things were pretty agonizing in some ways.
01:29:31I need to just start taking responsibility.
01:29:33It would really help me.
01:29:34And he's like, no, fuck that.
01:29:35I'm not taking any goddamn responsibility.
01:29:37Thank you very much.
01:29:38I'm going to give you a bunch of platitudes and send you off to go fight with your wife.
01:29:43I mean, Jesus, man, you've got to be kidding me about love, right?
01:29:56Shouldn't he?
01:29:57I mean, you sacrifice for your kids, right?
01:29:59You sacrifice your comfort and all of that sometimes for your kids.
01:30:02And yet he won't even tell the truth and take responsibility
01:30:06when he knows how painful and destructive it is.
01:30:08When he doesn't, he's still that selfish.
01:30:11Well, he ran away from the responsibility from like his first wife and kid and like never,
01:30:16you know, never kept in touch with the kid.
01:30:19So, I don't know what ever happened to the girl.
01:30:22This was in the 60s.
01:30:24Uh, and then, you know, cheating on my mom with someone else that,
01:30:28and I know that's like, just, yeah, but anyway,
01:30:32like, uh, yeah, in terms of talking about taking responsibility and hypocritical and
01:30:39there's plenty of other indicators there that are pointing to the exact same thing.
01:30:43So, so does he love you?
01:30:54Um,
01:31:02I think it meets his definition of love, but no.
01:31:05Why on earth would I care about his definition of love?
01:31:08I think he, if he doesn't act in a loving manner towards his own offspring,
01:31:13why on earth would I care what his definition of love is, right?
01:31:16Yeah.
01:31:20And when I talk about this with you,
01:31:23well, we make this case or I make this case.
01:31:25Um, how do you feel?
01:31:29Don't give me theory.
01:31:30How do you feel?
01:31:36Sad because I see myself headed for the same thing with my kids.
01:31:39Well, that's what I'm really trying to block here.
01:31:42We can't do anything about your childhood,
01:31:43but we sure as heck can do something about your kids' childhood, right?
01:31:46Right.
01:31:48I, so, uh, just, uh, as a side, uh, I see myself spending a lot more,
01:31:54like exponentially more time with, with my kids than like my dad did and telling them constantly
01:32:00how much I care and love about them.
01:32:02And I still feel like I'm, I'm falling hellishly short.
01:32:06Oh, and sure.
01:32:07How do you feel sure?
01:32:08I just, just because, uh, my, I think the, the relationship with my wife and I
01:32:15just fighting so much has just tainted everything so that they can be like,
01:32:22uh, how could you, like, you have just so soured everything dad and they didn't seven say,
01:32:29said this, but if I were to guess their words, it's like, you've soured everything so much that
01:32:35yeah.
01:32:35Like we can't even take the fact that you like, say you love us seriously because things have
01:32:44just gotten so bad between my wife and I, like, that's how I, that's how I perceive it.
01:32:48You know, sometimes, you know, maybe I'm a little more harsh in my judgment, but
01:32:52no, I listen.
01:32:53I mean, so how often are you and your wife fighting?
01:32:56And I don't just mean like a little disagreement here and there,
01:32:59like which way to turn on the street, but how often, and you,
01:33:01are you and your wife engaged in not insignificant conflict?
01:33:08Not insignificant.
01:33:10So probably once a month, there's probably some kind of issue.
01:33:16Or like, I think we've handled some of them better in the last six months.
01:33:24But usually it's about once a month there.
01:33:26And there's probably like some small disagreements or something where I'm
01:33:31like, uh, and probably maybe like once a week where there's something like more minor,
01:33:37say once a week to once a month.
01:33:43I mean, that's a significant improvement over your own parents, right?
01:33:52It may, it may be the same amount as my parents.
01:33:56That same amount.
01:33:56Okay.
01:33:57And so I'm obviously pleasantly surprised that it's only once a month that there's,
01:34:02and so when I say not insignificant disagreement, what do you interpret that as?
01:34:07Or what are you answering that as?
01:34:09So if I say insignificant, and were you saying that?
01:34:14No, like if I say, you say once a month, there's like a not insignificant disagreement.
01:34:18So what does that look like?
01:34:23For the kids maybe, or for you?
01:34:25We, I've tried to keep things like quiet.
01:34:29I'm trying to think the last time we had something was like last month.
01:34:40Um, so when we had our big blow up back in like November, when I called you the first
01:34:44time, one of the things that really kind of like took things off was, um,
01:34:48my daughters had told my wife that I was looking at women, like when we were driving, you know,
01:34:55if there's like, you know, someone who is dressed inappropriately or something like
01:34:59that, they would say like, oh, yeah, you know, dad stares at women or something like that.
01:35:03So they told my wife, and that really kind of like set things off.
01:35:09One of the accusations that came out of there was that, like, because of, you know,
01:35:14one of the accusations that came out of there was that, like, because I did that,
01:35:18it like made my daughters uncomfortable.
01:35:21Because they're like, well, you know, if you're doing that, like, we feel and say, like,
01:35:29how do we know you're not doing those things like looking at us inappropriately?
01:35:34Also, that was like a mind blowing thing.
01:35:36Like, holy crap, like I'm being accused by my kids of this, of like, staring at them
01:35:42inappropriately, because I'm staring at other, like, driving by women, or whatever,
01:35:48you know, the context is.
01:35:49And did your daughters talk about that with you at the time?
01:35:56Like, did they go to your wife or did they?
01:35:59They went to my wife, and then like, she brought it up to me.
01:36:02But because, like, my wife knew that, like, that I was, like,
01:36:11having a long look, whatever you want to call it, because she knew that was happening.
01:36:16I think there was, I think she tried to defend me, but she was also kind of like,
01:36:23upset that that it was happening.
01:36:24So I think there was kind of like a mixed signal there, like the kids.
01:36:29And so I felt like I was kind of like left to defend myself.
01:36:33Sorry, and your daughters were, sorry, how old, like, last year?
01:36:3815 and 13-ish.
01:36:41When would they get the idea, let's say that you, I don't know,
01:36:44threw a second glance at some hot woman on the street or something like that, right?
01:36:49So where would they get the idea, though, that that would be something that might be
01:36:51inappropriate between you and your daughter?
01:36:53So that's a bit of an odd jump to me.
01:36:55I don't know why, but I have mentioned to them, like,
01:37:03you know, girls who dress scantily clad on, like, TikTok and other places, like,
01:37:07hey, well, you know, they're kind of doing it for attention and you want to make sure that,
01:37:10you know, you have a good personality and you could talk to people and, you know,
01:37:13don't just have somebody be around you for your looks, be around, like, you know,
01:37:18but all these women are doing it for attention.
01:37:20When, you know, the looks, they, you want to have a personality, something that's going to,
01:37:26like, make the person, like, stay around so they don't get caught up in, like, all the looks.
01:37:29So I, like, kind of would emphasize that.
01:37:32But, you know, but then they would also be like, well, dad's, like, staring at these women.
01:37:35So it's like, but, like, I wouldn't, like, we wouldn't let our daughter,
01:37:39like, my wife was on the same page, like, hey, like, you guys can't dress,
01:37:41like, inappropriately.
01:37:42And then they would also-
01:37:43No, but where did they, sorry, but I'm still not sure what they would get from you looking at
01:37:47women on the street to looking at them in some kind of way like that.
01:37:52I mean, I'm not sure where that would come.
01:37:55I mean, obviously that's not the case, right?
01:37:56So I'm not sure where that would come from.
01:37:59Yeah, I don't know where it came from.
01:38:04Is it school?
01:38:05Could it come from your wife?
01:38:06Is there, like, where, I'm trying to figure out,
01:38:08because that's a huge divide to put between a father and his daughters, right?
01:38:15Yeah, I think she-
01:38:16A crazy one.
01:38:18I think she did try to defend me, but there was still tension between us.
01:38:21And so it was, like, maybe, I don't know if the kids felt like,
01:38:25oh, well, mom's just defending dad, but they're still fighting.
01:38:29So-
01:38:30So they talked about this with your mom,
01:38:32and they come out with the idea that you might be looking at them inappropriately.
01:38:39Yeah, I don't know where it came.
01:38:40I know, like, we could possibly say my wife, but I think she said, like,
01:38:44she didn't mention anything like that to her, and I'm going to trust her.
01:38:46And so I don't know if it's just kids
01:38:49doing some kind of analytical leap or something like that.
01:38:52So I'm going to take my wife at her word and say that, like, okay, I hope-
01:38:55And that was last November, right?
01:38:59Yeah, that was, like, yeah, in the fall time frame.
01:39:01And then this last month, April, same issue came up with my oldest daughter.
01:39:09And she was like, oh, I saw you looking at women.
01:39:12I was like, I have not done any dog gone.
01:39:14Like, I have, like, nailed this thing down as best I could.
01:39:18Like, if you want to, well, I saw you look at so-and-so.
01:39:21I was like, she was like, we were at a restaurant in Massachusetts,
01:39:24and I saw you looking at, because we were there at the beginning of April, again,
01:39:27like, visiting the grandfather before he died.
01:39:29She's like, I saw you looking at such-
01:39:31I was like, I don't even remember who that was.
01:39:33And I was like, I'm going to defend this one adamantly, because I was not,
01:39:35like, I don't even care.
01:39:37Like, I, like, tried my absolute damndest to, like, change this and, like, listen to it.
01:39:44So I was like, this is baloney.
01:39:46She's like, well, you know, I don't even know if you're still, like, you know, looking at this.
01:39:49I was like, that is total garbage.
01:39:51I was like, to stand there and, like, it's in the middle of the night.
01:39:56So it's, like, 10, 11 at night that, like, you know, this thing was brought up at, like,
01:40:00nine at night.
01:40:01My wife's like, oh, you know, your daughter, she needs to talk to you.
01:40:03There's, like, something really going on.
01:40:04Like, I think you need, don't, you know, you need to discuss something.
01:40:08So then I, like, talk with her.
01:40:10And then it, like, escalates from, like, nine until, like, late.
01:40:12So, like, discussing anything past 9pm, I'd, like, put a moratorium on that.
01:40:16I don't want to do that anymore, because all it does is just two people exhausted
01:40:20and nothing gets accomplished.
01:40:21And you just, like, wake up super cranky.
01:40:23Wait, so your daughter is still saying that you might be looking at her inappropriately,
01:40:26because she thinks you're looking at women as a whole inappropriately,
01:40:29or looking at scantily-clothed women?
01:40:32It was, she was still convinced that I was looking at women inappropriately,
01:40:35and then still wasn't sure whether I was looking at her inappropriately.
01:40:40I was like, that's a total lie.
01:40:41That is not true.
01:40:42Like, I totally changed, like, that.
01:40:45I don't believe that whatsoever.
01:40:47And then my wife was like, hey, like, another kind of,
01:40:54like, hey, like, you know, so-and-so, like, telling our daughter, like,
01:40:58your dad, like, but, but, you know, there were, like, phrases that were said, like,
01:41:02well, I don't, I don't know.
01:41:03What did your wife say to your daughter?
01:41:05She's hearing these crazy accusations.
01:41:06And what, what, what did she say?
01:41:09My wife and my daughter were in the living room with me downstairs, and it was late at night.
01:41:14And I was like, I'm telling, I was like, like, I'm telling my wife, like, hey, look,
01:41:17I've been with you for 23, like, you know, like, this has never even been an issue.
01:41:24Like, we, like, no adult material, like, nothing.
01:41:26Like, there's not anything like that.
01:41:30And she's like, well, I don't know.
01:41:35Because, you know, you also told me that you didn't look at women.
01:41:37I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
01:41:38You're not even going to, like, throw this.
01:41:40So your daughter is saying, well, what if you're looking at me inappropriately,
01:41:43and your wife is there, right?
01:41:46Right.
01:41:46And what does your wife say to this crazy accusation?
01:41:49It was, like, kind of a, not a, it was a, what I would consider not a very firm defense of me.
01:42:00What does she say?
01:42:01Does she say that's absolutely outrageous?
01:42:03You can't think that about your father.
01:42:05That's absolutely false.
01:42:06My gosh.
01:42:07Like, he's your father.
01:42:09This is like, come on, this is like crazy.
01:42:13Let's say he does, let's say there's some woman with, I don't know, some crazy tight skirt,
01:42:17and he glances, yes, he's a man, you know, whatever, right?
01:42:20But you're his daughter.
01:42:21This is completely not even remotely in the same, like, where was the full-throated defense of this,
01:42:27and making sure that the daughter didn't go down this crazy path?
01:42:31No, so that, even that mindset of, like, oh, let's say there's a girl who's walking by,
01:42:38like, even if I look, it's automatic adultery, which, like, hey, I guess, you know,
01:42:43it says that in the Bible, and I'm Christian, and it's like, okay, hey, look, I realize I've sinned,
01:42:50but I'm asking for your forgiveness, like, if this stuff happens, you know, like, I—
01:42:56I'm sorry, is your wife also, I mean, serious Christian, right?
01:43:03I mean, which, obviously, respect and all of that.
01:43:05So your wife is also quite, quite down with Christian theology, right?
01:43:12So I'm going to be held to an even harder standard, because I'm trying to be a pastor, and—
01:43:19Okay, let's go back to— I appreciate that.
01:43:20I'm sorry to interrupt, but let's go back to your wife.
01:43:23Sure.
01:43:23She also goes to church, and she takes Christianity very seriously, right?
01:43:27Yes.
01:43:29So does she submit?
01:43:34For the most part, yes.
01:43:36Really?
01:43:36Then why are you fighting?
01:43:38Um, because then she would say that, well, she's not allowed to have an opinion, and so she just—
01:43:46Okay, so she doesn't submit.
01:43:49I mean, you're supposed to be the head of the household, right?
01:43:52We have had discussions, like, hey, if I'm supposed to lead, she's like,
01:43:55well, you're not leading, you're not doing it, I'm like—
01:43:56No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not her choice.
01:44:00If I understand the theology, and I'm no theologian, right?
01:44:02But if I understand this, then she's supposed to submit, right?
01:44:06Yes.
01:44:07Okay, so why is she concerned about you glancing at some
01:44:12woman on the streets when she's fighting in the household?
01:44:20Maybe I'm missing something, and again, I'm no expert on this, but
01:44:27she shouldn't be fighting with you, right?
01:44:29Right, right.
01:44:30But it's like, well, oh, so I, you know, the wife, have to submit, but then you don't have to
01:44:41adhere to these rules.
01:44:44That's what—
01:44:44Sorry, and which are the rules?
01:44:45Like, you can't—like, you have to have—fucking, excuse me—you have to have built-in pixels in
01:44:51your brain that translate every female form into, like, Gaussian blurs or something?
01:44:57I don't understand.
01:44:58I mean, you can't see women?
01:45:01Now, it's one thing if you see an attractive woman as a—I mean, my understanding of the
01:45:07theology is something like this.
01:45:08Look, if you see an attractive woman, you will notice that she's attractive.
01:45:12You may even appreciate her form a little bit, but that's not saying, I'm going to plan to
01:45:17meet her, and I want to undress her, and fantasizing about having sex with her.
01:45:21That's the difference, right?
01:45:22I mean, the Bible doesn't say you have to be functionally blind as a husband.
01:45:29It's, in essence, if you've already thought about a woman in your mind, then you've
01:45:34basically already cheated.
01:45:36So, like, even if I look at her—
01:45:38No, no, with lust in your heart.
01:45:41If you look at a woman with lust in your heart, which means it's something to do with love and
01:45:46attachment, and it's saying that it is a sin against your wife to start lusting after other
01:45:53women, because, I mean, A, it's a sin against the vows, and also B, it's going to lead you
01:45:58down the path of infidelity.
01:46:01Right, and well, that's what I was accused of lusting after other women when—
01:46:06Because you glanced at them in the street?
01:46:09Yes.
01:46:10Okay, that's just plain bullying.
01:46:11Like, I'm just going to be frank with you.
01:46:13Like, okay, for instance, are you allowed to go to a museum where there may be sculptures
01:46:20of topless women, right?
01:46:21The sort of Greco-Roman stuff or the, you know, Michelangelo stuff.
01:46:24Are you allowed to admire the female form and say, that is a beautiful carving?
01:46:30Probably, yeah.
01:46:31Okay.
01:46:32Are you allowed to acknowledge that there is an attractive woman on the street?
01:46:40That may or may not get me in trouble.
01:46:44Well, let me ask you this.
01:46:47Are you allowed to look around the street?
01:46:50Okay.
01:46:50If you look at a woman and you—
01:46:54Don't look too long.
01:46:55I'm sorry?
01:46:56Don't look too long.
01:46:59Well, okay, I don't know what that means, because I don't know that there's a countdown.
01:47:02So if you look at a woman, are you allowed to go through the automatic process of noticing
01:47:08whether she's attractive or not?
01:47:11That's an automatic process.
01:47:12We don't control that, right?
01:47:14Right, right.
01:47:16So you are allowed to look around the street, and if your glance happens to fall upon a woman
01:47:22who is attractive, you are allowed to register that, right?
01:47:28Mentally, yes.
01:47:30What do you mean mentally?
01:47:31The whole thing is a bodily process.
01:47:33I mean, the bodily process of seeing, the bodily process of processing the information,
01:47:37that's an automatic process.
01:47:39The bodily process of evaluating attractiveness.
01:47:42And the reason that men have to evaluate attractiveness, I mean, is to some degree
01:47:47to know who to steer clear of.
01:47:48So if a woman is really putting out a highly sexual vibe as a married man—I mean, I would
01:47:54say as a man as a whole, but certainly as a married man—we have to steer clear of her,
01:47:57right?
01:47:58Right.
01:47:59I mean, it's like saying you have to drive without hitting any potholes, but you're not
01:48:02allowed to look and see if there are any potholes.
01:48:04Like, that wouldn't make any sense, right?
01:48:06Right.
01:48:07But if, like, where you might get in trouble would be a double-take, right?
01:48:12Like, you see an attractive woman, and then you look back and you're like, wait, did I—you
01:48:15know, that would be inappropriate behavior.
01:48:21Or considered—that would be considered lusting.
01:48:25That would be considered lust if you look again?
01:48:28Right.
01:48:28Like, yeah, so let's say I'm driving, or, like, you're at a beach, and there's an
01:48:33attractive woman, and you stare too long, or you look again, that would fall into the
01:48:42category, from my understanding, for my wife, that I would much rather be with that than
01:48:51my wife.
01:48:52Well, but when she fights with you, when she fights with you, she's saying that you're
01:48:56not doing the right thing, you're not good enough for her, there's something negative
01:48:59about you.
01:49:00That's infidelity as well, right?
01:49:02Like, you understand, fighting with your spouse is a form of infidelity, because you're
01:49:06saying, I wish you were different.
01:49:08And it's a much, much more serious form of infidelity than looking twice at a butt-thong
01:49:13bikini.
01:49:14Right.
01:49:16I mean, am I wrong?
01:49:18Yeah, because that's way more destructive, I think.
01:49:21Oh, absolutely.
01:49:24I mean, if I'm at the beach, and there's some woman—I'll do a double-take if I literally
01:49:29think she's not wearing anything.
01:49:32No, I'm not kidding.
01:49:33Like, you know, some of these women, they have these bikinis, you can't even see them,
01:49:36it's like two giant, wobbly butt-cheeks.
01:49:40And I'm like, I need to—I do a double-take, because I'm like, is she wearing nothing?
01:49:43Or, you know, out of the corner of my eye, I glance at a woman, and she's wearing one
01:49:47of these, like, tiny, flesh-colored bikinis, I'm like, is she naked?
01:49:50And I need to—I look back to check, right?
01:49:55Have I now lusted and sinned?
01:49:56I'm actually just, you know, I want to know if there's somebody crazy on the beach who's
01:49:59naked, right?
01:50:01Right.
01:50:02I'm—I guess I'm just trying to do, at least from my side, since I can't control anybody
01:50:09else, try and do the right thing, and not—
01:50:15Okay, how is appeasing going?
01:50:19Not—no, not well.
01:50:20It doesn't work, right?
01:50:22So, listen, Scripture—I'm telling you this from the bottom of my heart—I'm not a pastor.
01:50:28So, take this with all the grains of salt in you want.
01:50:30Plus, I apologize for cussing earlier.
01:50:32But, Scripture is not for bullying.
01:50:38Right.
01:50:38It should never, ever, ever be used for bullying.
01:50:43It should never be used to control others.
01:50:45It should never be used to put others down.
01:50:47It should never be used to hound others or win points.
01:50:50That's not what Scripture is for.
01:50:53Scripture is for the idealistic perfection of your own soul in preparation for heaven.
01:50:57It is not to nag your husband for a double take.
01:51:02That is misusing Scripture to score points in a stupid marital battle,
01:51:08which would make Jesus weep rivers of tears.
01:51:13That his sacrifice on the cross, on Calvary, bleeding to death for days,
01:51:20was so your wife could nag you for looking twice.
01:51:24I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done it for that.
01:51:27And you know the old thing, right?
01:51:31Why are you so concerned with the speck of dust in your brother's eye
01:51:34and ignore the giant beam in your own?
01:51:37Yeah.
01:51:37Is your wife so godly and Christian and virtuous and perfect that she can nag you?
01:51:47Well, she's never lusted over another man.
01:51:52That's what she would say.
01:51:52She's like, I've never looked at anybody else.
01:51:54I've never cheated.
01:51:56I've never cheated.
01:51:57What, she's never looked at other men and noticed if they're attractive?
01:52:00Then she's lying.
01:52:01Never.
01:52:02No, she's lying.
01:52:02Come on.
01:52:03I mean, this is ridiculous.
01:52:05She's never looked at Ryan Gosling and said, hey, he's an attractive guy.
01:52:10Of course she has.
01:52:11I mean, that's not the same as cheating.
01:52:14Right.
01:52:14We had a discussion about this.
01:52:15She does not think he's attractive.
01:52:17I think he's very attractive.
01:52:18Okay, whoever she thinks is attractive.
01:52:22But yeah.
01:52:23No, that's, look, come on.
01:52:24Thou shalt not bear false witness.
01:52:25She wants to, it sounds like she wants to nag and bully you on this point.
01:52:30And so she's holding this as a standard and she's seeing if she can get away with it.
01:52:34And you're letting her get away with it.
01:52:36So if somebody would say, anybody would say to me, I'm, I don't know, what are you in your 40s
01:52:42or whatever, 50s, whatever.
01:52:43Somebody said, you said you'd be married over 20 years, right?
01:52:45So if somebody would say to me, I have been married over 20 years.
01:52:48I've never looked and ever noticed that another man was attractive.
01:52:52I would just say, oh, come on.
01:52:53Like, this is ridiculous.
01:52:55Right.
01:52:55Right.
01:52:56Right.
01:52:57This is like the guy on the live stream the other day.
01:52:59He was like, I've achieved every single one of my dreams.
01:53:02It's like, really?
01:53:03You don't have a dream of world peace.
01:53:04You don't have a dream of like, you know, no abuse for children.
01:53:07I mean, come on.
01:53:08Right.
01:53:08This is ridiculous.
01:53:09It's just a lie.
01:53:11It's a, it's a lie.
01:53:12And it's an embarrassing lie because it's so obvious.
01:53:14Now she, she of course can complain.
01:53:15Oh, I've never, ever noticed whether any man is attractive.
01:53:19It's like, oh, come on.
01:53:20I mean, well, I think he's like, you know, say that she, yeah.
01:53:24Notices them, that they're attractive, but not in like a lusting after,
01:53:29but it's different for her versus me looking.
01:53:35And I'm, I, please don't answer anything you're uncomfortable with,
01:53:39but just in general, are, are you content and happy with the physical
01:53:42side of your marriage or has that fallen prey to conflicts?
01:53:47Uh, yeah.
01:53:50You mean like, uh, intimacy and all that, like that's yeah.
01:53:54Like that has never like, everything's fine.
01:53:57Like, like sexually, like plenty more than I could ask for.
01:54:01Okay.
01:54:02Good.
01:54:02Good.
01:54:02All right.
01:54:03So like, and she, she's very attractive.
01:54:06You know, I, like she, after four kids, like she has a great body.
01:54:12She's, you know, that's wonderful to hear.
01:54:15That's wonderful to hear.
01:54:16Now, would she also, would she say that.
01:54:20In general, to be Christian is to focus on improving yourself
01:54:24rather than correcting others.
01:54:29Focus on improving yourself, but.
01:54:31Right.
01:54:31And so I guess my question would be, has, is she morally perfect to the
01:54:37point where she can nag you for something as minor as a double take?
01:54:41Well, no.
01:54:42Okay.
01:54:42So then she's kind of sinning a little, isn't she by nagging you?
01:54:47Mm-hmm.
01:54:49Because the time, effort, and energy that she's putting into nagging you,
01:54:53she could put towards the improvement of her own soul, right?
01:54:58Yeah.
01:54:59She told me on numerous occasions that she was worried about the
01:55:02endangerment of my soul, that I would go to hell for the sinning
01:55:06that I had done through lusting after.
01:55:09With the double takes on the street?
01:55:11Yeah.
01:55:12Right.
01:55:14Okay.
01:55:14And she's fully comfortable that her soul is in a state of such
01:55:19perfection that she's really concerned about your double takes on the street.
01:55:24Well, she was also concerned for herself because I'm supposed to be
01:55:28spiritually leading this household and here I am committing a mortal sin.
01:55:34I'm sorry, a mortal sin?
01:55:36Sorry, a double take on the street is a mortal sin now?
01:55:40Well, because I've already lusted in my heart.
01:55:43So, therefore.
01:55:45Okay, so then you're just going to hell, is that right?
01:55:49Like, there's no escape.
01:55:51Right.
01:55:52Does this seem a little extreme to you?
01:55:57Yes, but once the conversation gets to a point where there's almost,
01:56:07there's no like, hey, maybe can we dial this back?
01:56:10Like, maybe can we talk about this a little bit more reasonably?
01:56:13It's, you know, like once people dig in, it's like, there's no room for trying to
01:56:23win people over to change their minds.
01:56:24No, no, but she's not supposed to nag you.
01:56:27You're supposed to love the sinner, hate the sin, but she's not supposed to nag you, right?
01:56:33Well.
01:56:34I mean, nagging is a sin.
01:56:36I mean, doesn't the Bible say it's better to live on the corner of a roof than in a
01:56:39house with a quarrelsome woman?
01:56:41Um, but it's, um, it's, it's, if I was her, I would be saying, well, I would, I'm, I'm not,
01:56:51I'm trying to save you, I, because I want you to go to heaven, and I'm trying to tell
01:56:55you that you have to stop doing this thing because it's so bad, and I don't want you to
01:57:01be at risk of losing your soul.
01:57:05Okay, but do you lust after other women?
01:57:09No, I'm not thinking about that.
01:57:11Okay, so then you're not sinning.
01:57:13I, I gave up adult material eight years ago.
01:57:18Okay, so you're, so, and I appreciate that, so you're not sinning, right?
01:57:24Right.
01:57:25I'm trying not to, like, like, I'm not.
01:57:29You're not looking and fantasizing about sex with other women and trying to figure out
01:57:34how to meet them and stalking them on Instagram, right?
01:57:38No, I'm not.
01:57:39Okay, so it's sinning in your heart, not in your eyes, right?
01:57:43Right.
01:57:46Lusts after them in their heart.
01:57:49So, as far as I understand, you're not sinning, but you're being Gestapo-ed into near-oblivion,
01:57:57because you're out in public, and she's staring at you, and your daughter's staring at you
01:58:02about where your eyes are going.
01:58:05That's, that's insane.
01:58:07Like, I'm sorry, that's exhausting.
01:58:10Well, I guess my actions were noticeable enough that made them think that I was lusting, so.
01:58:20No, but, but you're not lusting.
01:58:24You're noticing, right?
01:58:25As a friend of mine said, I'm married, I'm not blind, right?
01:58:28So you're noticing, right?
01:58:30Right.
01:58:32But you're not lusting, right?
01:58:33Yeah, but I'm not like, I'm not like, oh, I would, I would hit that or.
01:58:36Right, right, right.
01:58:37So you're not lusting.
01:58:38So when you say to them, I'm noticing, I'm not lusting, what do they say?
01:58:45Um.
01:58:54I, I don't think that I've articulated that, but I, because I, I think.
01:59:01No, but they say you're lusting after women in your heart, and you say, I'm not.
01:59:06My, my, my.
01:59:16I think my wife has.
01:59:19Her defense of me in that has not.
01:59:23No, no, when you, when they say, oh, let's just talk about your wife.
01:59:27The fact that your daughters are involved is beyond disturbing to me.
01:59:30We'll get to that in a sec.
01:59:31But your wife says you're lusting after women in your heart because you noticed or did a
01:59:35double take on this attractive woman.
01:59:38And you say, no, I noticed that she's attractive, but I'm not lusting after her in my heart.
01:59:44She wouldn't believe me.
01:59:46So she's now calling you a liar.
01:59:51Well, then why would you look?
01:59:52And now you're.
01:59:53Okay, let's do this.
01:59:54Let's do this role play, right?
01:59:55Okay, sure.
01:59:56So she says you look twice.
01:59:58And okay, so tell me you look at a woman and then you glance back.
02:00:01Is that something like that?
02:00:04And caveat before we do the role play months before a while before she'd asked me, like,
02:00:10oh, are you looking at other?
02:00:11I was like, no, no, I'm not.
02:00:13But then, like, I'd be in the car and, you know, that situation would happen.
02:00:16Then my daughters told her and they'd be like, she was like, I thought you said you didn't do
02:00:20that.
02:00:20And I trusted you first.
02:00:21And now your daughters are telling me that you're doing that in front of them.
02:00:25And now I can't trust you because you told me this.
02:00:28How did your daughters know that this private quasi sexual matter between you and your wife
02:00:36was a thing?
02:00:37Who told your daughters that this was a thing?
02:00:41This is wildly inappropriate.
02:00:46I guess maybe because my actions were so blatant, but I don't know.
02:00:51Come on.
02:00:52Who told them?
02:00:53Oh, I think they were like, no, they were like in the car.
02:00:58They were in the car with my wife and a friend.
02:01:01And they were like, the girls were like my wife and some other lady were talking about
02:01:07something.
02:01:08And I'm probably butchering it, but I think it was something along the lines.
02:01:10Like they were talking about that and they were like, oh, yeah, you know, no, no, dad,
02:01:14dad, he looks at he looks at other women, too.
02:01:17And it was like, I said that for my wife, my daughters.
02:01:20My daughters.
02:01:22OK, but how did your daughters know to even check on this with you or?
02:01:27I have no idea.
02:01:29But you didn't tell them.
02:01:31No.
02:01:32So who told them?
02:01:35Keep an eye out on dad looking at women.
02:01:39Yeah, I don't know.
02:01:41Did it come from I mean, I assume that you're with them in church.
02:01:45Was it some did like.
02:01:48Some priests say that you got to be like little Gestapo girls about your like.
02:01:54So where would they have even heard about this as a thing?
02:01:58I don't think they would have.
02:02:01OK, so didn't it come from your wife?
02:02:06I don't think she would have told them anything like that.
02:02:09Then the mystery remains, where would they learn to start policing this stuff with you?
02:02:15And there's there may be a piece of the conversation that I'm
02:02:19finger is out of context.
02:02:21I'm sorry.
02:02:22Say again.
02:02:22I'm not sure what you mean.
02:02:25Like there may be another.
02:02:30There might be some more information that I'm just don't remember
02:02:33from what my wife or my daughters have said, but I could have sworn that like.
02:02:37One of my daughters was in a car with my wife and my wife and her friend were
02:02:41talking about something along this line and like attractive women and like.
02:02:46Then one of my daughters was like, oh, dad would have stared at that or looked at
02:02:50their dad or something along those lines.
02:02:54OK, so so then your daughter says something that's very disrespectful to you, right?
02:02:59Right.
02:02:59And what does your wife say?
02:03:02And then my wife was like, oh, no, he he doesn't do that.
02:03:06And she's like, oh, yeah, no, I saw him.
02:03:08He did it recently or something like that.
02:03:10And then my wife confronted me about it.
02:03:12OK, hang on, hang on, hang on.
02:03:14And how old was your daughter at this point?
02:03:17Twelve or something.
02:03:18So why is she doing that?
02:03:21Why is she causing this kind of trouble?
02:03:24I don't know.
02:03:25Yeah, you do.
02:03:30Strife between me and my wife.
02:03:32Why is she?
02:03:32She's absolutely stirring up a whole bunch of crap here and setting you and your wife
02:03:39against each other.
02:03:40And this has been happening now for months, right?
02:03:43Yeah.
02:03:44So what's she doing?
02:03:46Well, so so that's the twelve and a half year old.
02:03:48And then the other one, the 15 year old.
02:03:52Well, I hopped on board with this after.
02:03:55So this is a rebellion, right?
02:03:57This is a rebellion against authority, right?
02:04:01I don't mean your authority as like the man of the house.
02:04:03I mean, just as a parent, right?
02:04:06Right.
02:04:07Like you, you don't, you don't talk about me like that.
02:04:10What are you, what are you doing?
02:04:13Well, dad, we saw you this, that, the other.
02:04:14It's like, you can ask me.
02:04:18You can talk to me about things.
02:04:20Don't you dare dump to conclusions about my sin.
02:04:24Yeah.
02:04:25Like that is unacceptable.
02:04:28Yeah, no, my, my, like.
02:04:33This also happened again this morning when we were coming home from church
02:04:36and my wife did.
02:04:41And your wife did what?
02:04:50Um, all my kids were, were talking about.
02:04:53Just how bad I was and how terrible it is.
02:04:57Like, because, because of this whole second take.
02:05:01No, no, no, no, no.
02:05:02Because of like all the fighting that's been going on and it's like,
02:05:05how can you make mom cry?
02:05:06And then you get up there and during church, like you'll read the prayers
02:05:09and you'll lead a sermon and then you'll be so nice to everybody.
02:05:12I'm like, I'm nice to everybody anyway.
02:05:16Oh, so you said that they were wrong?
02:05:22Yeah, I would defend myself for that.
02:05:23Okay.
02:05:24But you need to be curious.
02:05:26Tell me what you mean.
02:05:27Tell me what you've seen.
02:05:28Tell me what you feel.
02:05:29Tell me what you think.
02:05:30Otherwise it just comes back in this passive aggressive dad staring.
02:05:34Right.
02:05:35Well, no, no, no.
02:05:36So, um, this was, well, the, um, the, the adultery there,
02:05:42the staring thing also like, oh, just like, uh, so like I was,
02:05:45we were in the car as my wife on our four kids were driving home,
02:05:49like a 10 minute drive.
02:05:51And it was like, oh dad, like dad, why are you so fake when you're there at church?
02:05:56And like, you make mom cry at home when you guys are,
02:05:58cause we've been fighting for like this last week.
02:05:59And if it's just been really terrible and it's like, oh,
02:06:02but then you were at your church.
02:06:03Like you wear your collar and all this other stuff.
02:06:06And then you put on this face here.
02:06:07Then when you go home, I'm like, I try to act the same,
02:06:10whether I'm at church or at home.
02:06:11So there's no, like, there's no like fakeness.
02:06:14Like, like I'll pray with your mom and we'll pray.
02:06:16And let's see, bro, bro.
02:06:18You're just telling them that they're wrong.
02:06:21They have a criticism and you're like, nope, you're wrong.
02:06:25Right.
02:06:26Has that solved it?
02:06:30You said, has that solved anything?
02:06:32Has it solved it?
02:06:32Has it solved the problem?
02:06:33Of course not.
02:06:35No, no, no.
02:06:35But like you go to your parents, you go to your parents a year ago
02:06:40and you see if your parents, you had, you were not greatest parents.
02:06:43And they're like, no, you're wrong.
02:06:46Right.
02:06:46Did that solve everything?
02:06:49No.
02:06:51Um, I, I, I, I told the kids as I hate, look, if you want to talk about it,
02:06:56let's wait until we get home because there's all four of them in the car.
02:07:00No, you said, sorry.
02:07:01You just, I mean, unless I've misunderstood something, they brought up a criticism and
02:07:05you said, no, I'm no different at church.
02:07:07It's not hypocritical, blah, blah, blah.
02:07:09Right.
02:07:10I, I, I started to kind of like try to defend myself.
02:07:13And then I just listened to them, like say everything.
02:07:15I said, guys, let's wait till we get home, please.
02:07:18Can we just try and like, let's not make this car ride chaotic.
02:07:22Cause it's too much.
02:07:22If you guys want to sit down and talk there, because when we get in the car,
02:07:25like then all of a sudden it's just like everything, but it just starts yelling.
02:07:28And it's just like super crazy hectic.
02:07:30And it's like, at least if we get home, it's like, let's sit down and we can talk.
02:07:35And so that's where I was trying to kind of like steer it towards, but like,
02:07:39there wasn't like the very like tepid defensive, like, Hey guys, we shouldn't like,
02:07:47like my wife tried to kind of help bring things in.
02:07:51But I never felt they have a point that you and your wife are fighting, as you say,
02:07:57for the last week or so.
02:07:59Yeah, absolutely.
02:08:00So what are you fighting?
02:08:02Is this to do with the, uh, the drive back from your grandfather's funeral?
02:08:06Yeah.
02:08:06Yeah.
02:08:07Okay.
02:08:08So did that drive get worse and worse?
02:08:10Or I know we never quite finished the story.
02:08:14From the, uh, the funeral from.
02:08:16Yeah.
02:08:16Yeah.
02:08:17Yes.
02:08:18It got exponentially worse.
02:08:19Okay.
02:08:21And what was the basis of the conflict?
02:08:23I mean, I know the immediate things that your, your daughter was screaming and your
02:08:26wife was getting upset and she was yelling at them and you were saying, don't yell.
02:08:29And she says, how dare you not support me or whatever it is.
02:08:32But what happened from there?
02:08:35Um, just to tie up the loose end, you had asked me about what were some of the small
02:08:39things and the big things that we fought about.
02:08:41And that was like one of the big things that we, we fought about.
02:08:44Like, those are the significant things.
02:08:45The other things are like, you don't spend enough time with me.
02:08:48You're not, you don't pay attention.
02:08:49You don't love me.
02:08:50Like you haven't mentioned that you think that I'm attractive or that I've lost weight.
02:08:54Your wife says that you don't love her.
02:08:56She thinks that you don't love her.
02:09:00Um, or that I'm not really attracted to her.
02:09:03I'm like, sorry, which, which one?
02:09:05It's, uh, that if I truly loved her, I wouldn't treat, I wouldn't have treated her the way that I
02:09:12did in the past.
02:09:15And she's had a real hard time of like letting go and forgiving me and she's wanted to forgive
02:09:20me, but she was just like waiting for me to like blow up and do something bad.
02:09:24And this last argument, like that was it.
02:09:27And so, and so what is, what is her complaint about the way you've treated her in the past?
02:09:30What's her big complaint or complaints?
02:09:36Um, that I'm nasty and vindictive that all, um, that I've, I've just broken her and I'm
02:09:48just manipulating her.
02:09:49I mean, there's a very, very serious accusations, right?
02:09:52Yeah, absolutely.
02:09:53And, um, what percentage do you think she has merit in these accusations?
02:10:05I think in the past.
02:10:20Um, I think in the past I've,
02:10:25I've said, yeah, I've, I've, I've definitely said some like really harsh things.
02:10:28Like probably eight years ago, like we got into a fight and this is where she talks about
02:10:36like the light switch and turning things on and off.
02:10:39Um, I said, I said like, you're the worst person I've ever met.
02:10:43I also said like, why can't you be a better mother?
02:10:46Um, she, she's had some, she's had quite a few miscarriages.
02:10:50She's had 16 to be, uh, there in, in fact, 16 miscarriages, 16 miscarriages.
02:10:57And, um, uh, many of them, I was not there or, uh, was not like, I, I, I missed them
02:11:06for like one other reason or another.
02:11:09Um, or I was not really emotionally supportive the way I should have been.
02:11:16Okay.
02:11:17That's, let's go back to you saying to your wife, you're the worst person I've ever met.
02:11:22Yeah.
02:11:23Why would you say that?
02:11:28Well, there's no reason.
02:11:29No, no, no.
02:11:30I didn't ask for the excuse, but why, why did you say that?
02:11:33Why would you say that to her?
02:11:35We, we got into a huge fight and I think she like shoved me up against the walls.
02:11:53She like pushed me.
02:11:56She's like yelling at me.
02:11:57What do you think?
02:11:59I can't remember whether it was like, I said that to her first, like I said that to her.
02:12:03And then like, we were fighting and then she like pushed me or whether like she pushed me
02:12:07first.
02:12:07Like I got really mad and like, I was yelling back at her and then like said that to her.
02:12:12And when your kids, when this was happening.
02:12:14Oh, they were watching this whole stupid thing.
02:12:18Super shitty.
02:12:19Oh my gosh.
02:12:21Yeah.
02:12:22So your kids are watching.
02:12:24You're the worst person, manhandling, physical aggression.
02:12:27They were watching all of that.
02:12:29Yeah.
02:12:30Oh brother.
02:12:34Yeah.
02:12:36Yeah.
02:12:36That's where all this, uh, my kids with the, like my son has PTSD.
02:12:40I'm like a hundred percent convinced.
02:12:46Like he absolutely has to like see somebody, my, uh, my other daughters too.
02:12:54So like, when we talk about like trying to save a marriage, it's like, uh, like my wife is,
02:12:59is crying and I'm like crying.
02:13:02And it's like, what, uh, yeah.
02:13:05And there's, there's so much more stuff on.
02:13:07There's so much more.
02:13:08It's you talk about a codependent relationship with like my parents.
02:13:11It's like, well, here I am.
02:13:16And more, you mean like in terms of name calling or ugly language and physical aggression?
02:13:21It's like, uh, just like, uh, I really tried to tamp it down over the years, but it's still.
02:13:30Um, it's still been, it's been, it's been bad.
02:13:37Just whether it's name calling or like the aggression and stuff like this is stuff that
02:13:42like probably should have gone to a counselor a long time ago, but every time you think,
02:13:51okay, well, I'm going to do this differently.
02:13:52I'm going to try this differently.
02:13:54I'm going to act like this and I've tried to like change my ways and, uh,
02:14:05I'm sorry.
02:14:06Yeah.
02:14:06I mean, that's a, that's a heck of a burden for the marriage to carry for sure.
02:14:10And that, that's like not exactly a mortal wound to a woman's heart, but it's pretty
02:14:14close.
02:14:14Right.
02:14:15Well, I can understand.
02:14:17So when we talk about like looking right, like I can understand why she would, you know,
02:14:22whether you want to call it a jump to a conclusion or something like that, you know,
02:14:25why she would know.
02:14:26Cause it's not an infidelity.
02:14:27That's a distraction.
02:14:28I think probably the tough thing.
02:14:30What does your wife think of your parents?
02:14:33Uh, well, she's, she's like, I mean, I get reminded all the time that like all the red
02:14:38flags that she saw that she chose to ignore and now she's paying the price for them.
02:14:42And I've just been like absolutely terrible for her.
02:14:46And so, yeah, you're not answering my question.
02:14:48What does your wife think of your parents?
02:14:50She thinks they're absolutely terrible.
02:14:53Okay.
02:14:53So, so I want you to get into your wife's perspective here, right?
02:14:57Sure.
02:14:58Cause it's no, no, no problem.
02:15:01It's hard to see this kind of stuff, right?
02:15:03Sure.
02:15:04So she sees you forgiving your parents who did you immeasurable harm, right?
02:15:14Is that fair to say?
02:15:17Yeah.
02:15:17You don't hold them to account.
02:15:18You don't yell at them.
02:15:19You don't get mad at them.
02:15:20You don't threaten them.
02:15:21You don't cut them off.
02:15:23You don't like you forgive your parents, right?
02:15:28That you never chose to have in your life, who did you immeasurable harm?
02:15:32Right.
02:15:33And did your brother immeasurable harm?
02:15:37So she sees you forgive your parents, but not her.
02:15:47I forgive her.
02:15:48No.
02:15:49No, you can't possibly say to someone, you're the worst person I ever met.
02:15:56When you have parents like yours.
02:16:00Right.
02:16:01She sees you not getting angry at your parents, right?
02:16:06To them, but only to her and the kids.
02:16:12Right.
02:16:13And that's the price of not getting angry at your parents.
02:16:19The price.
02:16:20See, this is my view.
02:16:22Do you mind if I go straight up Christian here?
02:16:25Sure.
02:16:25Okay.
02:16:26Your parents did you great harm and were very terrible parents, in my opinion.
02:16:31And I think there's pretty objective reasons for that, which we've sort of talked about.
02:16:36Thou shalt not bear false witness, right?
02:16:39Don't lie about important matters of morality.
02:16:43Thou shalt not bear false witness.
02:16:46You've had one conversation with your parents where they totally gaslit you and lied to you
02:16:51at your expense and at the expense of your family, right?
02:16:55Is that fair to say?
02:17:00So thou shalt not bear false witness.
02:17:02I think you're angry at your parents.
02:17:03You were neglected by your parents.
02:17:05You saw your parents brutalize your brother for what turned out to be a brain tumor, probably,
02:17:10right?
02:17:11Completely unfair.
02:17:12And you're angry at them, but you won't express it to them because it's very painful and because
02:17:20it's hard to look at your parents and say, well, they'd rather lie to me and gaslight
02:17:24me than take any responsibility.
02:17:26And that's a complete lack of love, right?
02:17:28You're still telling me at this particular age of your life when you should know better
02:17:32that your father loves you, right?
02:17:34This is why I was spending time on that issue.
02:17:36Does that make sense?
02:17:38Yeah.
02:17:39Yeah.
02:17:39Okay.
02:17:40Okay.
02:17:40So you're angry at your parents and rightly so.
02:17:44And to me, not expressing anger, and you don't have to express it directly to them, but not
02:17:48acknowledging that anger in your heart is lying.
02:17:50It's bearing false witness.
02:17:53Right.
02:17:54So then your wife says, oh, so he forgives people who treat him really badly and he's
02:18:04really nice to them, but I, who treats him well, get treated like shit by him.
02:18:10Right.
02:18:11Do you understand how maddening and frustrating that is?
02:18:14Oh, absolutely.
02:18:15Yeah.
02:18:16If only I could find a way to do as much harm to him as his parents did, he'd treat me
02:18:20really well.
02:18:23Right.
02:18:24Right.
02:18:27So you treat the people who did you great harm very well, and you treat the woman who
02:18:33had 17 miscarriages and gave you four children often quite badly.
02:18:39Right.
02:18:41Right.
02:18:41Which is why-
02:18:42You don't say to your parents, you're really bad parents, you say to your wife, you're
02:18:46the worst person I've ever met.
02:18:48No, the worst person you've ever met is your parents.
02:18:51Right.
02:18:53But they get all sugar and spice and all things nice from you, right?
02:18:58Yeah.
02:19:00And then because you're humiliated and won't be honest with your parents and you lie to
02:19:06your parents and to yourself about your parents, where does that anger go?
02:19:13To my wife.
02:19:14That's right, and your kids.
02:19:26So from her perspective, you're a coward with your parents and a bully with your kids.
02:19:34Now, this may be the case with her as well, but I'm talking to you, not her, right?
02:19:38So if she was on the call, I may be saying similar things.
02:19:42Right, right.
02:19:43But our children in particular will not think us any stronger than our weakest position.
02:19:54Right.
02:19:55And your weakest position, my friend, if I understand this correctly, is with your parents.
02:20:00Right.
02:20:01Right.
02:20:02So how can they have respect for your authority?
02:20:06If you lie about your parents and treat them well without demanding any accountability or
02:20:13honor or truth from them.
02:20:16Right, right.
02:20:17And if you still claim to be loved by those who gaslight you and lie to you and won't
02:20:22take responsibility and destroyed your brother, by the way, if you claim that's love,
02:20:31but you claim that the wife who married you almost a quarter century ago, well,
02:20:38it's just the worst person you've ever met, then you can't be held in high moral esteem.
02:20:45And, you know, we don't have to be perfect to be held in high moral esteem,
02:20:48but we can't be this contradictory.
02:20:50Does that make sense?
02:20:51Right.
02:20:52Yeah.
02:21:01Sorry, you're messing with your microphone quite a bit.
02:21:04I can hear a lot of background noise.
02:21:06Oh, sorry.
02:21:10I'm trying to figure out.
02:21:12Well, sorry, there's a fox outside.
02:21:15I'm outside in my garage and there's a fox outside.
02:21:17See, that's it.
02:21:17You're just talking about a hot woman, aren't you?
02:21:19That's it right there.
02:21:21Don't look at that fox twice.
02:21:22You'll turn to stone.
02:21:23I'll be forced to tell your wife.
02:21:25He looked at a fox, a foxy female.
02:21:29Anyway, sorry, go on.
02:21:30Twice, I tell you.
02:21:31Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
02:21:35My dog is sitting here, like, keeping watch over.
02:21:37And I've got my sniper rifle here in case it gets rowdy because we have chickens.
02:21:42Anyway, so but I don't know what's so like, in my mind, I feel like I have dealt with
02:21:48and like, like, have them at a distance.
02:21:53But clearly I do not.
02:21:55So other than like, cutting them out.
02:21:57So what I did, like, I cut my brother out entirely.
02:22:00And that was the most like, that was the best thing I could have done.
02:22:03I feel absolutely terrible.
02:22:04So I forgive him.
02:22:05But I also realized because of his level of toxicity as a person, couldn't have him in
02:22:10my life.
02:22:11Right.
02:22:11Who's primarily who's primarily responsible?
02:22:15Who's primarily responsible?
02:22:19For your brother turning out the way he turned out?
02:22:21I didn't know.
02:22:22We can say your brother and this and that.
02:22:23The other guy did have a brain tumor.
02:22:26Right.
02:22:26So who's primarily responsible?
02:22:30My parents.
02:22:31Yeah.
02:22:33I mean, they raised him.
02:22:35Your father fought with him and aggressed against him continually from what you said,
02:22:40if I remember rightly.
02:22:42Right.
02:22:45So they kind of broke him.
02:22:47Right.
02:22:48So how can you?
02:22:52Ostracize the effect, but not the cause.
02:22:57Right.
02:22:58Well, he's right.
02:23:00Well, in return, he's also done that to me.
02:23:03But then, like, no, but your parents have done it anyway, because they won't tell you
02:23:08the truth about the childhood, won't take responsibility.
02:23:12Won't say here's what we did wrong.
02:23:13You're right.
02:23:13You know, let's talk about it more.
02:23:15Let's let's hear more.
02:23:15You know, we, you know.
02:23:17We don't want you to be carrying this burden.
02:23:20I mean, you're carrying this burden called a bad childhood, and your parents could lift
02:23:24that burden off you anytime they wanted.
02:23:26Anytime they wanted, they could call you up and say, you know what?
02:23:29You're not responsible.
02:23:30It was our fault.
02:23:31We did this wrong.
02:23:31We did that wrong.
02:23:32We we made these choices.
02:23:33We made those choices.
02:23:34It wasn't your fault.
02:23:36You were just a kid.
02:23:37And we're really, really sorry.
02:23:38And that would lift a huge burden from you, wouldn't it?
02:23:41Yeah.
02:23:41But no, no, they just got ladening more and more and more burdens on you.
02:23:47And you come to them for comfort, for truth, for relief, for support.
02:23:53And they just pile more burdens on you.
02:23:55More lies, more gaslighting, more hypocrisy, more blaming you.
02:24:02How dare you criticize us?
02:24:04We just did the very best we could with the knowledge we had.
02:24:06That means that you're unjust for judging us badly.
02:24:09I mean, we did the very best we could.
02:24:13Right.
02:24:13So they're continuing to gaslight and undermine and harm you.
02:24:20Could you hold on for just a second?
02:24:23Just like 10 seconds.
02:24:24Sure.
02:24:27I'm on the phone with the guy who I told you I was talking to to work through this stuff with.
02:24:38I'm a hot woman.
02:24:39I'm on the phone with a hot woman.
02:24:45So sexy.
02:24:46Very British.
02:24:49Wait, say that again, Stefan.
02:24:51So sexy.
02:24:52Very, very British.
02:24:54Oops, my top fell off.
02:25:00Thank you.
02:25:01Is that something meme-worthy?
02:25:04Something meme-worthy, yeah.
02:25:05Only Stefan Hans is my channel.
02:25:08Anyway, sorry.
02:25:10Yeah, we had a fox kill like a dozen of our chickens a couple weeks ago, and we killed one,
02:25:17but now they're back.
02:25:18I'm surprised.
02:25:19They do return, like minks.
02:25:21Yes.
02:25:29Yeah, with my brother, it was so easy because it was just so...
02:25:35The vitriol was just so blatant.
02:25:38Yeah, with your parents.
02:25:39And listen, we've been talking for a long time, so I have to be a bit more efficient.
02:25:41So with your parents, absolutely.
02:25:43It's more subtle, which in many ways makes it more destructive.
02:25:46Right.
02:25:47Right, right, right.
02:25:48Yeah, it's death by a thousand paper cuts over an entire lifetime.
02:25:51Oh yeah, like give me a fair fight, not like gas in the vents, right?
02:25:55Right, right, right.
02:25:57Yeah, exactly.
02:25:58So that's why.
02:26:00Yeah, but the thought of like ostracizing my parents, but it's...
02:26:06Oof, like my mom has just said...
02:26:08No, just, I mean, you don't, I don't...
02:26:11It's what you do in your mind that matters.
02:26:14It's not what you do on the phone.
02:26:16I mean, maybe you talk to them again.
02:26:17I don't know this.
02:26:17And then philosophy, morality, it doesn't give you prescriptions, right?
02:26:22Right, right.
02:26:23It says, but honesty is the important thing.
02:26:26And of course you're angry at your parents.
02:26:29Yeah.
02:26:30Of course you're angry.
02:26:32I mean, in a sense, they robbed you of a brother.
02:26:34They, you were isolated over the course of your childhood.
02:26:37You saw them fighting continuously, right?
02:26:40And that's not good.
02:26:41Everybody knows that's not good parenting.
02:26:43You don't fight in front of your kids.
02:26:45I mean, you can have disagreements, but you don't fight, right?
02:26:47You certainly don't name call and you certainly don't shove each other into walls and say,
02:26:50you're the worst person I've ever met.
02:26:52So I think that your kids have reasonable criticisms of you.
02:27:01Asked us your wife and you have reasonable criticisms of your wife.
02:27:04But trading criticisms doesn't achieve anything.
02:27:08No.
02:27:09Right.
02:27:10Right.
02:27:10So you have to model, in my view, you have to model all the stuff you did that was wrong and
02:27:15bad.
02:27:15And some of it was based upon, you know, just not recognize the connection between your
02:27:20anger at your parents and what was going on in your family.
02:27:24Because your parents betrayed you, have betrayed you and continue to betray you.
02:27:27In my view, by not taking responsibility for your childhood and blaming you for having
02:27:31any criticism, then it's very petty and very vicious.
02:27:34And in particular, because they know how to treat children well.
02:27:37Right.
02:27:37They're demonstrating every time they're with your kids.
02:27:39Oh, we know how to treat children.
02:27:41Well, look at that.
02:27:41How nice.
02:27:42Right.
02:27:43That's really cruel.
02:27:44Right.
02:27:45They're not, they're not saying, man, this is way easier as grandparents.
02:27:47I mean, we really, now that we see how well we can deal with children, I feel really ashamed
02:27:52about how I dealt with you and your brother and your sister.
02:27:54Right.
02:27:55Are they saying anything like that?
02:27:57My dad said, well, you guys really like figured out the formula.
02:28:00You guys really did a good job.
02:28:02Like you guys.
02:28:03Yeah, but they didn't.
02:28:06Yeah.
02:28:08My dad's kind of alluded to like having done some things wrong, but.
02:28:13But then when you talk to them directly, he wouldn't take any responsibility.
02:28:17I'll tell you, if I were to sit there and talk with him directly, he would probably.
02:28:23I would think that he would admit like, hey, yeah, you know, I really screwed the pooch on this.
02:28:29But if it's with him and my mom at the same time.
02:28:33Like they're like, we've had those discussions.
02:28:35My dad's like, Hey, look, you can't talk to your mom like this.
02:28:37Like you're like, this is like, you really upset her.
02:28:39Like you need to call and apologize.
02:28:41And they added on.
02:28:43And so, you know, but like if I sit with him separately, like we, we would have these like
02:28:49very candid chats.
02:28:50Like, yeah.
02:28:51I mean, maybe he'd say I screwed the pooch on it, but then you'd have to sort of ask why.
02:28:54And also why is it your job to bring it up when he's the parent?
02:28:57And like all of that.
02:28:58I mean, did your, did your father give you useful advice that you follow to this day
02:29:02about life and relationships and work?
02:29:04And I mean, were you even parented?
02:29:10Uh, the best dating advice was don't date a girl with thick ankles.
02:29:13Okay.
02:29:14So no, not parented yet.
02:29:15Anything else?
02:29:17Uh, no.
02:29:19Not like they're not your parents, right?
02:29:23They're just bill payers and roommates, right?
02:29:26Because if they don't give you moral or helpful or useful, they don't parent.
02:29:30Parenting isn't paying the bills and taking you to the dentist every six months.
02:29:33Parenting is getting involved in your kid's life and helping shape and guide them.
02:29:39Right.
02:29:39The spare the rod, spoil the child.
02:29:40The rod being, the rod being, as you know, moral instruction.
02:29:45Yeah.
02:29:46So where was the moral instruction?
02:29:49Yeah, there wasn't really.
02:29:50Well, they couldn't give you any because they couldn't model any.
02:29:53What are they going to tell you?
02:29:53It's important to get along with people now.
02:29:55Got to go back and fight for four more hours with your mom.
02:29:58Right, right, right, right.
02:30:00Okay.
02:30:00So my, I don't know what to do with your parents other than I think you need to sort of acknowledge
02:30:04the harm that they did and the fact that you've modeled, you forgive people you're scared of and
02:30:09you bully people who are dependent on you a little bit, right?
02:30:12Right.
02:30:13So I think it's just beg for forgiveness and don't expect reciprocity because we don't,
02:30:17we don't, you know, like you've, you've done some wrong to your wife, right?
02:30:21We acknowledge that, right?
02:30:22That's not a big, right?
02:30:23And okay, she's done some wrong to you, but trading your fault, my fault, like just you
02:30:29have to model self-ownership and that self-ownership is here's all the things I'm absolutely wretched
02:30:34about.
02:30:34Here's all the things I'm incredibly sorry about.
02:30:36Here's all the things I would literally give one of my kidneys, maybe even both of them
02:30:39to take back.
02:30:41I've done wrong.
02:30:42And you talk about that with your wife.
02:30:43You guys sit down and talk about it with your kids where the age appropriate level is there
02:30:48and you don't do it so that your wife then says, well, here's the things I'm sorry
02:30:53about.
02:30:53You just keep modeling that, you know, you can say, look, I don't appreciate the eyeball
02:31:00policing every time I'm out there and who I look at and who I don't look at, because
02:31:03these are not the biggest issues facing our family.
02:31:06The biggest issues for me that I have control over, it's been my behavior in this family
02:31:11and I've done, I've done some things, right?
02:31:13I acknowledge that.
02:31:13And you have, and I'm not trying to throw you under the bus here, but the things that
02:31:17I've done wrong, I've really made mistakes.
02:31:19And I, I don't have any excuse because I knew it was wrong when I did it.
02:31:24I knew it was wrong afterwards.
02:31:25And I apologize with every fiber of my being for the things that I've done to hurt you.
02:31:32And I am now going to work my very, very best to make amends.
02:31:37And the apology is just the beginning of the conversation.
02:31:41Right.
02:31:42And so I tried that months ago and I worked really hard at it.
02:31:47And we had this blow up after the funeral and there was fighting, hitting, screaming.
02:31:55Oh, you and your wife hitting each other?
02:31:58Uh, I was, she was walking away from me.
02:32:03I was trying to block her from leaving so that we could talk and she walked up the steps.
02:32:17I walked up the stairwell with her.
02:32:19I tried to block her from the way she pushed past me.
02:32:23We got into the room.
02:32:25I tried to hold her and obviously we're both very heated at this point, but I tried to
02:32:31hold her and she hit me and slap me and punched me.
02:32:39And then my son saw that.
02:32:41And that was just, he was just punching himself in the head.
02:32:44It was absolutely the worst thing.
02:32:47Right.
02:32:47So you know that you're, you led me down a little bit of a garden path here, right?
02:32:51Because I was asking you about significant conflicts in your wife.
02:32:53You're like, well, maybe once a month, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
02:32:55Right.
02:32:56And it's really only two, two and a half hours or like William, I mean, two, two, two hours,
02:33:0140 minutes or whatever into the conversation where it's like, you did allude to your son
02:33:05hitting himself earlier.
02:33:07But it's like, yeah.
02:33:09So you're punching and hitting each other, you and your wife, right?
02:33:13I was not hitting her.
02:33:14I was trying to keep her from, oh, you were physically blocking her.
02:33:19I was blocking her.
02:33:20Yes.
02:33:20Right.
02:33:21Right.
02:33:21So that is a form of physical aggression because I also assume you're larger than your wife.
02:33:24Right.
02:33:25I'm not, I'm not downplaying that as, okay.
02:33:29So you're, you're blocking your wife's exit and she's hitting you to get away.
02:33:33Right.
02:33:34Right.
02:33:35So when you say you tried taking self-ownership and apologizing, it's not something you try.
02:33:40It's not like a strategy or a chess move.
02:33:43We were okay.
02:33:49It's a continual process.
02:33:52Right.
02:33:52Right.
02:33:52So for, for six months, I've, I've been trying to, when, whenever there's a fight,
02:33:58I wouldn't even say, well, you did this.
02:34:01I just say, look, I, I, I'm sorry.
02:34:03I shouldn't have, I'm not even looking for her to apologize.
02:34:07I'm just, Hey, I really, you know, I should have set a better example.
02:34:10I should have led.
02:34:11Like, there's no finger pointing for me.
02:34:15Well, well, what about your side of the thing?
02:34:17It's just completely, I'm just like, put it all on me.
02:34:20I'll just take the entire thing.
02:34:22And I'll just say, okay.
02:34:23So you're modeling self-ownership and your wife is using that to what increase
02:34:27her aggression towards you.
02:34:32I'm not being sarcastic or anything.
02:34:34I'm genuinely curious because sometimes when we model self-ownership and you say,
02:34:37okay, like, here's all the things I did wrong.
02:34:39The other person gets a certain sense of relief and says, okay.
02:34:42And, and the things I did, like they model, they, they, they mirror that.
02:34:46Does that make sense?
02:34:47Yeah.
02:34:49That does not happen.
02:34:50Like, well, you know, I shouldn't have done this.
02:34:52And I shouldn't have done that.
02:34:53It's like, well, you, you did this to me and this is why we did it.
02:34:56It's always you, you, you, you, you.
02:34:58Okay.
02:34:58So she liked your mom.
02:35:02Cause you said your mom plays the victim too, right?
02:35:04Yeah.
02:35:08She heard that I was saying that she was playing the victim.
02:35:13I'm sorry, who, who heard?
02:35:15If my wife heard me saying that I thought she was playing the victim.
02:35:22Well, no, my, my question is, is she a little bit like your mom?
02:35:25Cause you said that your mom was playing the victim.
02:35:27Not whether you would say that to your wife, but is that somewhat accurate?
02:35:32It may not be accurate.
02:35:33I'm just curious.
02:35:35When there is a fight,
02:35:41she will say, she, she will point out all of the things that I did and there's never.
02:35:48And if I point out, if I've tried to point out something, Hey, well, you know,
02:35:52I didn't like the way you handled this.
02:35:54No, but even if you model, even if you bottle self-ownership,
02:35:58she won't take self-ownership.
02:36:01No.
02:36:02Okay.
02:36:02So then that comes back to your parents, right?
02:36:04So the reason why, the reason why you accept her not taking self-ownership is you accept
02:36:09your parents, not taking self-ownership.
02:36:13Your parents haven't taken any responsibility for any of the wrongs they've done.
02:36:16Have they?
02:36:18Right.
02:36:18Okay.
02:36:19So that's your template.
02:36:20Your template is the people who love you never have to take any responsibility for anything.
02:36:26So that's the, again, that's the price.
02:36:28And I'm not saying that your marriage is the price, but your wife's attitude is,
02:36:31she looks at you and she says, okay, so yeah, his parents have never taken any responsibility
02:36:36and he's great with them.
02:36:37He never yells at them.
02:36:39So of course I should be like his parents because he treats them the best.
02:36:43Right.
02:36:45You hold your parents accountable.
02:36:47Right.
02:36:48Right.
02:36:48You hold your parents accountable and then your wife may change.
02:36:53But right now you have this template called, Oh yeah, people don't have to,
02:36:57they can treat me like terribly and I'll never hold them accountable and I'll treat
02:37:01them very well.
02:37:01And even if I try to hold them accountable and they say, no, I'm not, we're not accountable
02:37:05at all.
02:37:06We're not responsible for anything.
02:37:07Like your parents said, you're fine.
02:37:09You just keep going.
02:37:09Right.
02:37:11Right.
02:37:12Right.
02:37:16If your wife sees you holding your parents accountable, it may give her pause.
02:37:22Well, she, she hasn't said I love you for the last week and she's ready to leave.
02:37:27She's like, like absolutely done.
02:37:31She doesn't want to, but you can't be, you can't be violent in front of your kids.
02:37:35Like that's an absolute no, no, obviously.
02:37:37Right.
02:37:37Well, right.
02:37:39Right.
02:37:39But that's, I mean, it's not even, it's just the entire situation and everything.
02:37:43No, no.
02:37:44But your son is hitting himself, right?
02:37:47Correct.
02:37:48So you can't be violent in front of your children.
02:37:51Right.
02:37:51Yeah.
02:37:55So, I mean, the marriage in its current state is bad for the kids, isn't it?
02:38:02Yeah.
02:38:06And so if you choose to block your wife leaving and you guys choose to fight with this kind of
02:38:11aggression, both eight years ago, and I'm sure in the intervening time in front of your kids,
02:38:16then you're taking an ax to the base of the marriage and you're harming your children
02:38:20in very serious ways.
02:38:22Right.
02:38:23Right.
02:38:30And so when your wife chooses to hit you in front of the kids, when you choose to block your wife's
02:38:34exit in front of the kids, then you are choosing for the marriage to become, I think, isn't it
02:38:39fair to say you're just both voluntarily choosing for the marriage to be unsustainable?
02:38:45Because you can't be doing that with your kids.
02:38:47And if you can't stop from doing that and you've been married, did you say 23 years?
02:38:54Been together for 23, married for less.
02:38:58Okay, so you've been together for almost a quarter century and this is where you are,
02:39:02which is not good for the kids, right?
02:39:09Yeah.
02:39:10And these are choices based upon escalation, right?
02:39:13If you'd have let your wife go, she might not have hit you.
02:39:15If she hadn't hit you, it wouldn't have been as traumatic for your son.
02:39:18But you both make these choices, right?
02:39:22And they're on the list of things that you can do.
02:39:30Right.
02:39:30You guys have these things on the list of things that you can do.
02:39:34And whenever I see people who have, you know, obviously some pretty bad behavior on the list
02:39:39of things that they can do, then what I do is I look for, okay, where is this allowed
02:39:44in their relationships?
02:39:46Right.
02:39:47It's precedent.
02:39:48You know, like if you have in your life people who aggress against you,
02:39:57then you can't say, I won't be aggressive.
02:40:01Or if you have people in your life who've modeled that, who it's okay,
02:40:04then you can't say no to it.
02:40:07Right, right.
02:40:09If you have somebody in your life who's a drug addict, you can't say, well,
02:40:12I'm never going to have anything to do with drugs or drug addicts,
02:40:14because you've already broken that precedent.
02:40:16Right.
02:40:18So if your parents don't take responsibility, then it's hard for you to impose responsibility
02:40:22either on yourself or on your wife, because you already say it's fine.
02:40:27You know, love, love involves not taking any responsibility, because you said,
02:40:32you know, at least as a kid, you felt like your father loved you and so on.
02:40:34Right.
02:40:35So love means you act out, you sacrifice the other person, you harm the other person,
02:40:41you don't take accountability, you don't take responsibility,
02:40:44and aggression is totally fine.
02:40:46I mean, you said your parents are still bickering with each other, right?
02:40:49Yeah.
02:40:50Okay, so you're fine to be around and care about and expose your children
02:40:54to people who bickered through your childhood and have bickered through your adulthood.
02:40:58Right.
02:40:59So how are you going to say no to bickering?
02:41:01How are you going to say no to aggression when you have these people in your life?
02:41:07Yeah.
02:41:08It's like, well, I'm not going to have any organized crime in my life.
02:41:12My father is Tony Soprano, but I'm not going to say no.
02:41:15Well, then you have, right?
02:41:16So if you're going to have this kind of aggression in your life,
02:41:19if your parents are doing it, it's fine with you.
02:41:21How are you going to say no to it with your wife?
02:41:24Yeah.
02:41:25Yeah.
02:41:32And your parents are also going to end up turning you against your kids.
02:41:35Like, you know that, right?
02:41:36Because if your parents are super nice to your kids,
02:41:39then when your kids get older and they ask you about your parents and you say,
02:41:43well, they did this wrong and this wrong and this wrong and this bad and this bad
02:41:45and this bad, what are your kids going to say?
02:41:48You're crazy.
02:41:49They were great.
02:41:50You're wrong.
02:41:51Right.
02:41:52So this is more sabotage, right?
02:42:00You can't have better relationships than your worst relationship.
02:42:06You can't have higher standards than your lower standards, right?
02:42:08Lowest standards.
02:42:10Mm-hmm.
02:42:12I mean, if you're at a garage sale and there's something there for five bucks,
02:42:16you don't pay $500 for it, do you?
02:42:20No.
02:42:20That's the lowest price.
02:42:21So that's what you pay.
02:42:23And integrity means that, you know, the chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
02:42:28And you can't have higher standards in your relationship
02:42:31than the relationship that has the lowest standards.
02:42:34And I think that's your parents, isn't it?
02:42:38Yeah.
02:42:38They can bicker, fight, ignore you, destroy your brother,
02:42:41and they're still welcome in your life.
02:42:43And you say, well, there's a distance.
02:42:45I don't care.
02:42:46The principle doesn't matter.
02:42:48Like saying there's a distance, like to take an extreme example,
02:42:51if you killed a guy 20 years ago, you're still a murderer.
02:42:55All right.
02:42:55Well, it's a lot of distance.
02:42:56You know, I haven't killed a guy in 20 years.
02:42:58It's like, yeah, but you're still a murderer.
02:43:00So you keep them at a distance.
02:43:01Well, first of all, that's going to change.
02:43:02When they get older, they're going to start hoovering in resources.
02:43:05Maybe that comes from your sister, probably not your brother,
02:43:08but they're going to start demanding more and more resources
02:43:10as they age out and need more support and all of that.
02:43:12So that's coming, right?
02:43:13So the fact that you keep them at arm's length
02:43:15when they're still relatively healthy is one thing.
02:43:17Because I'm at the age now, I think I'm a little older than you,
02:43:20where, you know, decaying parents are like dominant in a lot of people's lives.
02:43:25So, yeah, so that's coming.
02:43:27And that's why you need to have the boundaries right now.
02:43:30But yeah, I mean, so that would be my, like, why is that on the table as things to do?
02:43:34Well, did your parents ever, were they ever violent with each other in these kinds of ways?
02:43:39Yeah.
02:43:40Okay.
02:43:41So your parents were physically aggressive and they're still part of your life
02:43:44and they're welcome in your life and they don't have to take responsibility.
02:43:47So how on earth are you going to stop the behavior if you can donate in your parents?
02:43:52Right, right.
02:43:59And if you don't accept it in your parents, it gets off, it's off the table for you.
02:44:02Now, what happens with your wife, I don't know.
02:44:05But you just have to have an absolute standard.
02:44:08No, physical aggression is really bad.
02:44:10People who do it are really destructive.
02:44:12My parents have done it, I assume, for four plus decades, right?
02:44:17Yeah.
02:44:17Okay.
02:44:18So it's unacceptable.
02:44:20And it can't be undone and it can't be fixed.
02:44:23And you don't want to see it and you don't want to be around it
02:44:25and you will not have it as a standard.
02:44:27Right.
02:44:28Right.
02:44:32I mean, that's why Jesus, I come to set parents against children, fathers against sons.
02:44:38Because there's a new standard which people have to rise to.
02:44:42And the new standard is no physical aggression, no violence, no abuse.
02:44:46And the people rise to it or they don't.
02:44:49And everyone in my life follows that.
02:44:52And there's nobody in my life who doesn't.
02:44:55Right.
02:44:55Yeah.
02:44:56There's nobody in my life who yells at their kids.
02:44:58There's nobody in my life who is aggressive in that kind of way.
02:45:02Yeah.
02:45:04Because that's off the table.
02:45:06That's a universal standard.
02:45:08Right.
02:45:10So I hope this makes some kind of sense.
02:45:12I'm sure it does.
02:45:12I'm a very smart guy and all of that.
02:45:14But I hope that this follows or tracks for you.
02:45:18It does.
02:45:18I'm just, I don't know what to do about my marriage right now.
02:45:22I don't either.
02:45:23I mean, you know, I mean, anchor management courses would be great and so on.
02:45:28But I don't know.
02:45:30I mean, there's a lot of scarring on the whole, right?
02:45:34For sure.
02:45:34There's much.
02:45:36Well, I mean, I can forgive, right?
02:45:39Like me, I have a little bit more of a light switch, right?
02:45:41I'm like, okay, look, forgive us for trespassing.
02:45:43Stop forgiving.
02:45:46Stop forgiving where it's not earned.
02:45:50No, no, no.
02:45:50I mean, like between my wife and I.
02:45:52No, no.
02:45:52I'm talking about you and your parents.
02:45:53Because your forgiveness of your parents where they have not earned it is the problem.
02:45:57It's the whole thing I've been hammering at for three hours almost.
02:46:00Right, right, right.
02:46:02Like I can.
02:46:04It would be hard for me, but I feel like I could
02:46:09keep them far enough away where I would be all right with it.
02:46:12No, no, it's, oh my God, it's not how far they are away.
02:46:15And it's not how often you talk to them.
02:46:17It's the 10th time.
02:46:18It's what goes on in your mind.
02:46:20Is it absolutely unacceptable what they did
02:46:22and what they continue to do with their aggression
02:46:25and their violence in their marriage?
02:46:27Yes.
02:46:28Is it absolutely unacceptable?
02:46:30Then don't have that shit around your kids.
02:46:32Right.
02:46:33And don't have it around you and don't have it around your marriage.
02:46:36Right.
02:46:37Which is why I'm saying I can't physically have them be around.
02:46:41Okay, so if that's right, if that's absolutely unacceptable,
02:46:46then you've started the path of it being unacceptable to you.
02:46:49Because now you have a universal standard called, I don't do that.
02:46:53I don't countenance.
02:46:54I don't allow it.
02:46:55I don't accept it.
02:46:58No matter what.
02:47:00Right.
02:47:02And then you will have the resolution to not do it yourself.
02:47:06Right.
02:47:06But if you have a big gaping hole called, it's fine if my parents do it,
02:47:10you can't stop the behavior in yourself.
02:47:11You can't.
02:47:13How could you?
02:47:14Because if it's unacceptable for you to do,
02:47:16how can it be acceptable for your parents to never stop and still continue to do it?
02:47:22Right.
02:47:22Well, my wife has the exact same problem on her side.
02:47:25So, and she, but we're both kind of...
02:47:28I'm sure you do.
02:47:29And you have to have that as an absolute rule.
02:47:33Right.
02:47:34It is unacceptable to use aggression, abuse, and violence in a relationship.
02:47:40And if people do it, it's unacceptable.
02:47:44I don't, again, I can't tell you what to do.
02:47:46I just, I wouldn't have people like that around.
02:47:47It's gross.
02:47:49It's vile.
02:47:49And I certainly don't want my children exposed to it.
02:47:51I wouldn't.
02:47:52I just wouldn't.
02:47:54I can't, I can't honestly tell you.
02:47:56It's probably been about 30 years since I spent time with a Bickerton couple.
02:48:00I can just don't do it.
02:48:02Right, right.
02:48:03I don't want my daughter to see it.
02:48:04I don't want that around.
02:48:05I have no respect for it.
02:48:06I think it's contemptible.
02:48:08So, it's just got to be off the table.
02:48:11Like, no, I don't live like that.
02:48:12It's disrespectful to the glory of our souls.
02:48:15It's disrespectful to the capacity of our minds.
02:48:17It's petty.
02:48:18It's mean.
02:48:19It's vicious.
02:48:19It's nasty.
02:48:20And you got to have an absolute line, a big fiery line saying thou shall not pass.
02:48:24None shall pass.
02:48:25It doesn't, it's never acceptable.
02:48:28And whoever gets caught up in that, it's like, well, too bad.
02:48:30You should have been better.
02:48:35And you work on that with your parents.
02:48:38You'd be amazed when that behavior becomes truly unacceptable.
02:48:44Even for your parents, you'd be amazed at what changes in your heart.
02:48:48Then it becomes like bank robbery, right?
02:48:51If you forget your bank card, you don't just say, well, I'll go rob a bank.
02:48:54It's just not on the table.
02:48:55Go back and get your bank card.
02:48:57It's not like you don't sit there at the bank, oh, maybe, maybe, right?
02:48:59You don't.
02:48:59You're just not tempted, right?
02:49:00Does that make sense?
02:49:02Yeah.
02:49:03It's an absolute standard.
02:49:04So, it's temptation is off the table.
02:49:08So, anyway, I hope that makes sense.
02:49:12It does.
02:49:13I'm just...
02:49:16So, I see what you're...
02:49:18So, I'm trying to project in the future.
02:49:20Let's just say I defoo, right?
02:49:24Just sit for, you know, easy.
02:49:27Because that's how...
02:49:27Well, I don't look at it that way.
02:49:29The way I look at it is you have an absolute standard and you say to your parents, listen,
02:49:32you guys have been bickering and violent my whole life.
02:49:35Will you make a commitment to deal with this, to get therapy, to couples therapy,
02:49:39anger management?
02:49:39Like, I cannot have this in my life ever.
02:49:41It's infecting my marriage.
02:49:44What you do, like you wouldn't have people coughing up blood on your children, would you?
02:49:49So, you say to your parents, I can't have this in my life.
02:49:52I can't have this fighting.
02:49:53I can't have this bickering.
02:49:54I can't have this violence.
02:49:57So, I really, really hope that you guys deal with it, but I'm not having it around.
02:50:02Now, if they say, well, you know, we'd rather fight with each other and poison your marriage
02:50:07than it's like, okay, I'm sorry you're making...
02:50:09It's not just, oh, separate from people, right?
02:50:11It's you have standards.
02:50:13And if people rise to meet those standards, fantastic.
02:50:16And if they don't rise to meet those standards, that's a shame.
02:50:18But you don't just...
02:50:19Do you know what I mean?
02:50:20It's not just separation, if that makes sense.
02:50:22Right.
02:50:25I can't watch people.
02:50:27I can't watch you guys fight.
02:50:28That's been 45 years.
02:50:29I can't watch you fight anymore.
02:50:31I'm done.
02:50:32Right.
02:50:32You fix it or I'm just not seeing it anymore.
02:50:36I'm not watching it and I'm not having it get in my head.
02:50:38I'm not...
02:50:38It's infecting my marriage.
02:50:41And it is, right?
02:50:42Yeah.
02:50:43And your wife's parents who fight and do your wife's parents use violence as well?
02:50:47No, they did.
02:50:50Yeah.
02:50:51Okay.
02:50:51So she grew up with that.
02:50:53Okay.
02:50:53So that's infecting your marriage too.
02:50:54And you guys realize that you're puppets of your parents because of the lack of clear
02:50:59standards of acceptable and unacceptable behavior.
02:51:02So you guys are continuing your parents' battles.
02:51:07And your kids will continue it too, if you don't fix it.
02:51:10Yeah.
02:51:11Yeah, yeah.
02:51:15Now, as far as what you do tomorrow with your marriage, I'm not that guy, right?
02:51:21Right?
02:51:21I mean, you called me last year.
02:51:24I mean, I guess it took for six months or so, then it didn't.
02:51:28But I can't tell you what to do with your marriage tomorrow because I'm a prevention,
02:51:33not a cure guy, right?
02:51:35Right.
02:51:36But I think the thing that's most affecting your marriage is your parents.
02:51:41Right.
02:51:41And the lowering of the standards is the crack through which bad behavior gets through.
02:51:48With that understanding, I hope that you can forgive yourself a little and your wife too.
02:51:55Well, I'm
02:52:03never short on forgiveness, or at least I'd like to think that I'm not.
02:52:07Well, have you made this connection before?
02:52:10No.
02:52:15Yeah, we talked about it the last phone call, but it seemed to me,
02:52:20that would seem to be a piece of it, like they weren't necessarily helping.
02:52:25But it seemed more like you need, for me, I needed to take more responsibility in the
02:52:30lead as the husband and father.
02:52:31Oh, so we talked about the toxicity of your parents last time, right?
02:52:35Yeah.
02:52:35Okay.
02:52:36So hopefully, given that you didn't take my advice last time, maybe you'll take it now.
02:52:43Okay.
02:52:44Yeah.
02:52:45All right, bro.
02:52:45It's been almost three hours, so I'm going to wind things down.
02:52:49But you know, sometimes it takes a couple of runs at things, right?
02:52:52If I gave you this advice last time and it didn't particularly take, maybe it'll take now.
02:52:57Again, maybe it's not the right advice for you, but I certainly think that anger management would
02:53:02be a good thing to at least stop the behaviors immediately.
02:53:04But I think real down at the root, I think, is the parental stuff.
02:53:09Right.
02:53:10And would therapy for kids at this age?
02:53:15I couldn't tell you.
02:53:16I'm not a therapist, and I don't have any experience or knowledge on that.
02:53:20But if you talk to a therapist, I'm sure a therapist will help.
02:53:23But I certainly think that the best thing for your kids would be vastly improved behavior,
02:53:28which maybe my advice will help with.
02:53:31But yeah, I couldn't tell you that answer.
02:53:34Now, Stefan, I'll help wrap this up for you.
02:53:42What really clicked for me was when I didn't talk to my brother anymore.
02:53:47That really changed a lot of things in my life.
02:53:51And I know you said you don't necessarily have to just completely cut them out.
02:53:54You can say, hey, these are the standards, because it's poisoning my marriage.
02:53:58But I can see how that would affect how my wife and I would both act if we were to
02:54:05tell the people that were the cause of this that get the help change or like,
02:54:14hey, sorry, we can't be in the same relationship together.
02:54:18And I think that would be a start for a big change.
02:54:24Thank you so much for taking the last three hours and helping me with all this.
02:54:31You're very welcome.
02:54:32And I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
02:54:34Big hug to your wife.
02:54:35Big hug to you.
02:54:36Big hug to your kids.
02:54:37And I certainly wish you the very best.
02:54:38And I absolutely admire where your heart is heading.
02:54:41And thank you for the call tonight.
02:54:44Thank you, Stefan.
02:54:45Thank you for the call.
02:54:47God bless you.
02:54:48I really appreciate it.
02:54:48You're welcome.
02:54:49Thanks, man.
02:54:49Bye.

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