Why Daddy Wasn't Home... Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

In this profound discussion, I delve into the personal struggles of a married woman as she navigates conflicts with her husband and confronts unresolved issues stemming from her upbringing. We explore the impact of familial dynamics on her current challenges, particularly dissecting her brother's behavior and the parental influences that shaped it. By unraveling past traumas and evaluating the role of parental support, we uncover the deep-seated roots of her struggles and highlight the importance of self-reflection in understanding and overcoming familial complexities. Ultimately, we encourage introspection towards fostering healthier relationships and confronting the lingering effects of early-life experiences on her journey towards healing.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00Basically, to give you some background, I'm a 44-year-old married woman.

00:00:03My husband's 46, and we have two daughters aged two and a half years and four months.

00:00:09We've been married for three years, going out for about six in total.

00:00:15So although I love my husband very much, at the moment I'm struggling.

00:00:19We have a few areas of constant and continuous conflict, and in addition to that, my husband

00:00:25will directly address whenever he has an issue.

00:00:28I find this constant criticism awful and very difficult to take, and I have a tendency

00:00:37of taking innocuous remarks, such as the kitchen is cluttered, as a personal attack.

00:00:44I'm also not very good at directly addressing my issues.

00:00:46I tend to not be honest here, and then I tend to get more and more resentful as time goes

00:00:52on, and then I get irritated, and then we have a big blowout.

00:00:57Taking snippy, saying hurtful remarks, which leads to more and more arguments.

00:01:01Basically, I want this to get this sorted.

00:01:06It's not fun for me, but particularly I don't want my kids growing up in an environment

00:01:10like this.

00:01:11So basically, I was just hoping you could help.

00:01:15Yes, I'm certainly happy.

00:01:18I'm certainly happy to help.

00:01:20Is this a relatively new phenomenon?

00:01:23Has this been part of your relationship forever, end and on, or how's that been?

00:01:29It's been more or less there from the start, and to be honest, it is over time actually

00:01:37getting better.

00:01:38We've both been working on it, and rather than progressing, it's regressing.

00:01:48Having listened to you, you say very similar things to what my husband says, but I find

00:01:53it a lot less painful to hear it from you.

00:01:56So I thought that you might be able to point me in the right direction as to understanding

00:02:04exactly what it is that's going wrong with my style, because right at the beginning,

00:02:08I had just absolutely no clue what was going on.

00:02:12To me, it was like he was blowing up out of nowhere, and I'd be sitting there going,

00:02:16what's going on?

00:02:18Am I in an abusive relationship?

00:02:20He seems really nice most of the time.

00:02:22I knew he was trying to explain to me, but I just couldn't hear him.

00:02:25From there, it's got a lot better, but it would be nice if I could just understand it

00:02:30straight away and then fix it.

00:02:32That would be my best outcome.

00:02:36Right.

00:02:37Okay.

00:02:38Can you think of – well, I'm sure you can.

00:02:40Women tend to have a rather special memory for these things, Lord love you – but can

00:02:44you think of the last significant conflict you had?

00:02:48You mentioned something, the kitchen is messy or whatever.

00:02:51Can you think of the last significant conflict that you had and step me through what happened

00:02:56and how it escalated?

00:02:59Well, the last significant we had wasn't awful, but basically, we were chatting in

00:03:08the morning, and he said that he was going to – yeah, he's working on losing some

00:03:17weight, and he said he wasn't going to have any breakfast because he wasn't hungry.

00:03:21And I said, oh, that's funny, because you never believed me when I said I wasn't hungry

00:03:25in the morning.

00:03:26And then he got quite upset that I'd said, you never believed me.

00:03:29And I was going, well, no, it's fine, because that's not what I meant.

00:03:33I just meant you found it a bit unusual.

00:03:35And he went, well, you said it, you can't take it back.

00:03:40And I was going, but it's fine, because I didn't mean it that way, it was just a mistake.

00:03:46And then he got upset.

00:03:47And I said, well, I'm sorry that you're upset, along the lines of, I'm really sorry you're

00:03:53overreacting, that must be painful for you to overreact so badly.

00:03:57So that didn't go so well, really.

00:04:00Yeah.

00:04:01Right.

00:04:02Okay.

00:04:03Yeah.

00:04:04Okay, so let's go back to, and yeah, I know all this stuff, of course, I know it sounds

00:04:09ridiculously small, but there's, you know, big stuff involved, which is why it's good

00:04:13to get some feedback.

00:04:15So he says, I'm not going to eat any breakfast, because I'm not hungry, right?

00:04:21And he's trying to lose weight, right?

00:04:22And then, what was your feeling when he said that?

00:04:28I guess I sort of felt, I thought, sort of felt smug, or sort of, how would I describe

00:04:36it?

00:04:37Sort of vindicated.

00:04:38I don't know if that's a feeling, particularly.

00:04:41No, you felt annoyed, there's a little bit of pettiness, and well, when's the best?

00:04:45Yeah, petty about it.

00:04:46Right.

00:04:47No, I get that.

00:04:48And, you know, we all have these issues.

00:04:49So I'm not preaching from any high mountain here.

00:04:52So it was just like, you immediately switched to something that had annoyed you, which is

00:04:56in the past, when you said that you weren't hungry.

00:04:59So what would he say if you said you weren't hungry in the morning?

00:05:02He wouldn't have believed me, and would have wanted me to have breakfast.

00:05:06He was always very keen on me having breakfast.

00:05:09So why wouldn't he believe you?

00:05:11And why was he keen on you having breakfast?

00:05:14Well, I mean, you've actually hit the nail on the head, I'm quite impressed.

00:05:20Yeah, so when we first met, I was sort of under-fueling quite badly.

00:05:25Sorry, under-fueling, did you say?

00:05:27Yeah, I was quite addicted to running.

00:05:32So I would run like a half marathon a week.

00:05:35Wow.

00:05:37How are your knees?

00:05:39Absolutely fine.

00:05:40It's nice to be five foot four.

00:05:41Ah, good.

00:05:42Okay.

00:05:43I'm only little.

00:05:45My dad is six foot four and has had two knee replacements, so yeah.

00:05:52Yeah, so I wasn't great for that.

00:05:55And previously to that, I had suffered from anorexia as well.

00:05:59So that possibly has something to do with, I mean, it actually seems to have resolved

00:06:05since I met my husband.

00:06:07I haven't really thought about it for years.

00:06:09So I'm surprised you brought that up, actually.

00:06:11That's interesting.

00:06:13Okay, so tell me a little bit about the anorexia.

00:06:17Or a lot, if you like.

00:06:19Well, it wasn't really anorexia.

00:06:22I never got down below nine stone-ish, which I guess is quite heavy still for someone my size.

00:06:30But it did mean that I was sort of passing out.

00:06:34So I think it's too light for me, basically.

00:06:38It sort of all started out when I wasn't really be giving much pocket money, but my parents

00:06:44would give me money for lunch.

00:06:47So I just would keep the money for lunch and not eat.

00:06:53Sorry, your microphone is kind of coming in and out quite a bit, like you get out of the

00:06:58choir.

00:06:59Sorry about that.

00:07:00No, that's fine.

00:07:01I don't know if there's anything we could do about it, but if there is, that would be

00:07:04helpful.

00:07:04I am jumping my knee up and down because I have got my baby on my knee.

00:07:07So maybe if I start from the other side, that would help.

00:07:08Okay, well, listen, don't worry, we'll be fine.

00:07:10I don't want the baby to be a problem that way, so that's no problem.

00:07:14So, okay.

00:07:16So how old were you when you decided to use your lunch money for saving?

00:07:21Probably about 16.

00:07:2316, okay.

00:07:24Yeah.

00:07:25So why did you not have any money when you were 16?

00:07:35I guess my parents didn't give me any, really.

00:07:38Or they didn't give me much.

00:07:39I'm aware your parents didn't give you any, but why didn't you have a job?

00:07:44I wasn't allowed to get a job.

00:07:47My dad didn't want me to interfere with my studies, so I wasn't able to get a job.

00:07:53I was able to do ironing and things, as I remember, to get some money that way.

00:08:00But I guess it was, I've always been, I don't know, quite keen on saving money.

00:08:07So I guess when-

00:08:08Okay, you're going to have to slow down a little here.

00:08:10There's so much of what you're saying, and it feels like a bit of a gish-gallop.

00:08:14No, no problem.

00:08:15I just need to slow you down.

00:08:17Okay, because you said, well, my dad wouldn't let me get a job because of my studies, right?

00:08:22Yeah.

00:08:22Okay.

00:08:23So why were your studies so important that you couldn't even work?

00:08:29Because, I mean, working is pretty essential for teenagers, right?

00:08:33I mean, my daughter's 15.

00:08:34She just got her first job, and she's very keen to work.

00:08:38You know, you've got to, I mean, education is good too, but you have to have work experience

00:08:42and understand how the working world works.

00:08:44Otherwise, your education doesn't do you a whole lot of good, right?

00:08:48Well, that wasn't the way my dad saw it, definitely.

00:08:51I think this is probably because he didn't ever get much of an education or a degree.

00:08:58Possibly he felt like he wanted to give me that so that I could get ahead.

00:09:05I'm not sure.

00:09:05Let me ask you this.

00:09:07Was it a negotiation?

00:09:09In other words, did your dad say, well, I'm concerned about your studies?

00:09:13And you say, well, let me at least just get a job for, you know, eight hours a week, right?

00:09:17Something on a Saturday, scoop an ice cream or something, because I need some pocket money.

00:09:21You know, I have a social life.

00:09:22I want to be able to do things.

00:09:23So, I mean, I assume, or maybe it's not the case, but your father would say, I want this.

00:09:28And, you know, you're 16.

00:09:30You're not five, right?

00:09:31So you would have some comment, some...

00:09:34No, no, it wasn't a negotiation, which is actually quite unusual for him.

00:09:39Sorry, was it ever a negotiation with your father?

00:09:43Yeah, usually.

00:09:46My dad was usually very reasonable, but occasionally he just wasn't on certain subjects.

00:09:53But this is a big one, though, right?

00:09:56Yeah.

00:09:58I mean, it didn't help your studies that you didn't have enough food, right?

00:10:04Yeah, but I don't think they knew about that one.

00:10:06No, no, no, I know.

00:10:08But if you were to say, well, Dad, I need money so much that I'm actually willing to

00:10:13forego lunch.

00:10:14And because I'm willing to forego lunch, you know, I find it hard to concentrate in the

00:10:19afternoon.

00:10:19So, like, I need some money or I need a job or something.

00:10:24I need some way to get money.

00:10:25I'm a 16-year-old girl and I need some money.

00:10:28My friends are doing stuff, right?

00:10:31Well, I did get pocket money.

00:10:33I guess it just wasn't as much as I wanted.

00:10:36I'm sorry.

00:10:37I thought you said earlier you didn't get pocket money.

00:10:39Maybe I misheard.

00:10:40No, no, I did get pocket money.

00:10:42And how much pocket money did you get?

00:10:45Oh, it's a long time ago.

00:10:46I don't remember.

00:10:49But, I mean, not enough.

00:10:50Something like £7 a week or something.

00:10:52OK, so it wasn't enough?

00:10:55No.

00:10:56OK.

00:10:57So, would you go to your mother and say, I have a problem with Dad because I don't have

00:11:02enough money and can you talk to him or can we reason all together or, like, because this

00:11:08is a problem and so on, right?

00:11:10Did you talk to your mother about the issues you were having with your father?

00:11:14No, I did not.

00:11:17Generally, I had more issues with my mum than my dad, so I don't think I would have done

00:11:21that back then.

00:11:24And when I say why not, I don't mean, like, well, you should have or I'm just curious

00:11:28why you wouldn't, like, what were the issues with your mother?

00:11:33She was very tidy to the point where I'd be, like, eating a meal in front of the television

00:11:42and I'd finished the meal but the TV, the programme was still on and she would basically

00:11:48want me to tidy it up.

00:11:53But at that point, I missed half the programme.

00:11:56Um, so I think she just had a lot of anxiety around mess and I was a very messy person.

00:12:03You were a very messy person.

00:12:05I'm not sure what that means.

00:12:07I mean, you're a teenager.

00:12:10Yeah, I was also quite a sick teenager.

00:12:16So, um, yeah, I guess I was just a teenager.

00:12:22And what were you sick with?

00:12:24Um, we didn't know for a long time.

00:12:28I think I got diagnosed with stomach migraines because my stomach was hurting so much.

00:12:33We discovered, I think it was in my late 20s or 30s, that both my mum and I have gluten

00:12:39intolerances.

00:12:41So, um, basically severe abdominal pains.

00:12:46And the gluten, uh, being gluten free has helped with that?

00:12:49Yeah, and it's given me a huge amount more energy.

00:12:53Okay, got it, got it.

00:12:55All right.

00:12:56So, you said that your father could be reasonable, but not about some things and your mother

00:13:02was not generally reasonable at all, is that right?

00:13:04No, no, she thought I was melodramatic for getting upset about things most of the time.

00:13:10So what does, what does she mean by melodramatic?

00:13:13Oh, um, I get very upset whenever things didn't go the way I planned them.

00:13:26Can you give me an example?

00:13:28Yeah, I can.

00:13:29It's from when I was tiny, but, um, my grandparents decided to give my older brother this

00:13:38pump-up spider.

00:13:39Pump-up spider.

00:13:41So it was basically, uh, a big spider the size of your hand with an air pump in it.

00:13:48And he'd pump it and it would jump out at me.

00:13:50And I absolutely freaked out.

00:13:52I'd like scream and cry.

00:13:54And I had nightmares for years about there being spiders in my bed.

00:13:59And sorry, how old were you when you were frightened in this way?

00:14:04Must have been about five or six.

00:14:07And I, of course, your brother, um, knew that you were that young and how old is your brother?

00:14:14He's, how old is he?

00:14:16He's two and a half years older than me.

00:14:19So why would he, I mean, that's not a particularly wise thing to do.

00:14:25And I'm just sort of trying to figure out why that would be something, A, that he would do

00:14:30and B, that your parents would sort of allow.

00:14:33Well, he, yeah, he didn't, he did like to torment me when I was a kid and my parents just,

00:14:42he liked to torment me and like tease me and wind me up.

00:14:47And my parents didn't really do anything until I got basically hysterical.

00:14:54And then I'd be told off for being hysterical about just a small thing.

00:15:02So why would your parents not protect you from this?

00:15:11And why would your brother want to do this?

00:15:13I mean, and I say this just because, I mean, obviously I've had difficulties with my own

00:15:18family of origin, but I now have known enough families where there are a lot of siblings,

00:15:26where the siblings all get along famously and don't torture and torment each other in this

00:15:31sort of uniquely British Isles kind of manner.

00:15:35It's a strange one, actually, because I absolutely thought it was completely normal that siblings

00:15:42hated each other until very recently.

00:15:46So I've never really thought about why he did that.

00:15:51I just thought that was what siblings did.

00:15:55I suspect that because my mom is quite anxious.

00:16:01When I came on the scene, it was very much, don't go near your sister because

00:16:10she's fragile or something.

00:16:12And they didn't include him.

00:16:14I know my mom was having a hard time when she had me because she was living in a hotel

00:16:21at the time because they'd just moved to a new city.

00:16:24And my brother was quite wild, I believe.

00:16:30She used to go and sit in a department store to have food, and by the time she'd finish,

00:16:35he'd race off into the furniture part of the store and things.

00:16:39She had trouble reading his energy.

00:16:48Yeah, I'm still not sure why he was cruel, though.

00:16:55Well, I mean, I guess we were physically hit, so maybe he's acting that out.

00:17:07Okay, and how often were you hit?

00:17:10I really don't remember.

00:17:12I've thought about this.

00:17:13I can't remember how often my mom hit us.

00:17:15I remember that my dad hit me three times growing up, and those I remember.

00:17:21But my mom, I think, was more frequent.

00:17:23I think it probably was a couple of times a month or something like that.

00:17:32What sort of hitting would it be?

00:17:35A spanking.

00:17:36No, no, I get that.

00:17:37But I mean, is it bare bottom?

00:17:40Is it through clothing?

00:17:41Is it with implements or bare hand?

00:17:45I can't remember if it was bare bottom or through clothes, but it was just the hand

00:17:50on the bottom, yeah.

00:17:52And was it painful or was it mostly startling?

00:17:57I remember it just pissing me off, to be honest, Stefan.

00:18:04I remember it making not a blind bit of difference to me.

00:18:07I just got really annoyed that my parents would do that to me.

00:18:14So I don't think it kind of hurt that much.

00:18:17And what about raised voices yelling, name calling?

00:18:20Was there any of that going on?

00:18:22No, no, they actually don't really do any of that.

00:18:28So it really literally was just spanking without any sort of name calling or things.

00:18:35I mean, my mom lost her temper a couple of times.

00:18:39And as I said, my dad, I think about three times or something.

00:18:43But on the whole, they didn't shout and certainly wouldn't call me names.

00:18:49So then I'm still trying to figure out why your brother would be cruel.

00:18:52I mean, the spanking is intermittent and not particularly

00:18:56violent and so on, and there's no name calling.

00:18:58So, I mean, was he ever, I mean, I'm sure he was like warm,

00:19:03affectionate, enjoyed your company, enjoyed playing games with you.

00:19:08Never, never, never, never.

00:19:14Gosh, and your only sibling, is that right?

00:19:17Yeah, yeah.

00:19:18He's my only older sibling.

00:19:23I suspect it was because I was a very good,

00:19:27well, what people would call a very good child.

00:19:29I sat quietly and played with beads for most of my childhood.

00:19:35And as I say, my brother got a really hard time

00:19:40because he had an awful lot of energy and did what people didn't want him to.

00:19:44My mom would take him around people's houses and he'd be climbing the bookshelves.

00:19:49Apparently she took him to a nursery and

00:19:54he went straight out the front door, out the back door and into the road.

00:20:00So I think he got told off so much and then I came

00:20:04and everybody said, why can't you be more like your sister?

00:20:07And I think he just got unbelievably resentful about that.

00:20:11No, look, I appreciate that.

00:20:12There's a certain sort of plausibility to that.

00:20:15But to me, and again, I'm just trying to sort of feel my way through the family structure.

00:20:19To me, it doesn't make sense.

00:20:21I mean, do you have uncles?

00:20:28I have an uncle.

00:20:30Okay, so your mother has a brother, right?

00:20:33No, my mom has a sister.

00:20:36Well, I guess I have two uncles, actually.

00:20:37My mom has...

00:20:39Okay, no, I've forgotten half the family.

00:20:41Okay, so my mom has two sisters, one of which is married.

00:20:47And my dad has two siblings, an elder brother and an elder sister.

00:20:53Okay, so although your mother didn't grow up with brothers, your father has brothers.

00:20:59Your father was a male.

00:21:01So if your brother is rambunctious, as little boys tend to be,

00:21:06I mean, it would be all within the norm, right?

00:21:08I mean, and also, I'm always concerned about these convenient family narratives.

00:21:13Oh, he climbed the bookshelf, he ran onto the road.

00:21:16Because the question is, why was he doing that?

00:21:20Why was he...

00:21:20Like, I'm not saying he's going to necessarily sit quietly with his beads, right?

00:21:24He's a boy, right?

00:21:25So they're a little bit of a death magnet and so on.

00:21:27But this Loki chaos agent, it just seems unbelievable to me.

00:21:32Because then the question is, why is he that way?

00:21:35Why is he so out of control?

00:21:37Why is he running away?

00:21:38Because, you know, little boys can be extremely affectionate.

00:21:41They can stay close to their mothers.

00:21:42They can take really good care of their younger sisters and brothers.

00:21:46And I've seen this directly in families.

00:21:48So I think she's saying, well, he was just a demon child in a way,

00:21:52and we just had to try and manage him.

00:21:53And that, to me, is not believable.

00:21:56The question is, why?

00:21:59And he was never kind to you.

00:22:01And you say, well, you know, but maybe he resented me.

00:22:03Well, that's not true, actually.

00:22:05He has done some things in my life that I consider...

00:22:09My brother has done the one thing in my life that I consider to be

00:22:13the best thing that anyone has ever done.

00:22:15So saying that he wasn't ever kind is not true.

00:22:18Okay.

00:22:19You know you said that, right?

00:22:21Yeah.

00:22:21I mean, I didn't extrapolate that.

00:22:23And obviously, I'm glad that you're giving me more detail.

00:22:25And what was the thing that he did that was the most kind?

00:22:29Okay, this is going to add more complexity to this.

00:22:31But when I was at boarding school, we weren't allowed to have outside contact

00:22:40because it upset us.

00:22:42And my brother would phone up.

00:22:45He was at a different boarding school and would say that

00:22:49there'd been a family emergency and he had to talk to me.

00:22:52And I'd get on the phone and go, well, what's the family emergency?

00:22:56No, I just knew you needed to talk to me.

00:23:02Oh, okay.

00:23:03And sorry, what age did you go to boarding school?

00:23:06I only went for a year.

00:23:07I went 11.

00:23:08Okay.

00:23:09And did your brother go at all?

00:23:12Yeah, he went...

00:23:13I think he went about the same time because we were living in the Far East at the time

00:23:17and they didn't have...

00:23:18Sorry.

00:23:19And they didn't have much of a secondary education.

00:23:22And he also has dyslexia.

00:23:25So they wanted to make sure his schooling was okay.

00:23:32And he went the whole way through.

00:23:34I was meant to, but I hated it so much.

00:23:37And eventually, after begging, my parents took me back after a year.

00:23:42Okay, got it.

00:23:43And where were you in the Far East?

00:23:46Malaysia.

00:23:47Okay.

00:23:48And what were you there for?

00:23:50My dad's work.

00:23:51Oh, no, I'm aware of that.

00:23:52But what was his work?

00:23:57He was in the oil industry.

00:23:59Okay, good.

00:24:02And was your mother was a stay-at-home mother?

00:24:05No, she was a teacher.

00:24:07Oh, oh, come on.

00:24:09No, she wasn't.

00:24:10You're trolling me.

00:24:11Yes, she was.

00:24:12No, no, I refuse to believe it.

00:24:14Now you're just trolling me.

00:24:16No, nice try.

00:24:18Nice try.

00:24:19She was the...

00:24:19No, no, I won't accept it.

00:24:21She cannot have been a teacher and claim to be ignorant of the nature of boys.

00:24:24No, that's not...

00:24:26That's not a thing.

00:24:26Well, that's the other thing.

00:24:27She went to boarding school as well from age 10 or 11.

00:24:31So she would have known them for that age as well.

00:24:33Well, you know, she's a teacher.

00:24:35Half her class is boys, and boys are rambunctious.

00:24:39I mean, she's literally...

00:24:40What she said is he was extra.

00:24:41She's taught and instructed hundreds or thousands of boys.

00:24:44And what, is she surprised by your brother?

00:24:47I don't understand.

00:24:48Well, I don't know.

00:24:51She just says that he was worse than the average, or way worse.

00:24:56And does she at all take any ownership for anything to do with that?

00:25:03You know, I don't think she does, now you mention it.

00:25:05I've never thought of that.

00:25:07Well, I mean, so if it's innate to your brother, then he should never be punished for it, right?

00:25:14That's true.

00:25:15And if it's not innate, then your parents should take responsibility.

00:25:20Indeed.

00:25:21So, was he punished for these things?

00:25:26Honestly, I'm not sure.

00:25:28Yes, you are.

00:25:29Come on, come on.

00:25:30We can't have this much fog about your childhood.

00:25:33Was your brother punished for being rambunctious, for running in the road,

00:25:36for climbing the bookshelves, for not listening, for not paying attention?

00:25:40Yeah, he would have been.

00:25:41Of course he was.

00:25:42Of course.

00:25:42So he was punished, and then your children say it's his innate nature.

00:25:46So they were punishing his innate nature, which is like punishing a child for being

00:25:50short or having brown eyes instead of blue eyes.

00:25:52It's punishing a child for something they have no control over.

00:25:56Is that right?

00:25:58Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:00So that's completely unjust, and it's terrible parenting.

00:26:03I'm not saying they're terrible parents as a whole, but it's terrible parenting

00:26:06to punish a child for the child's innate nature, right?

00:26:10I would definitely agree with that.

00:26:12Now, do you believe that it was your brother's innate nature, or was there some

00:26:17issue in the environment that may have exacerbated these tendencies?

00:26:23Well, the only thing I can think of, which is a bit of a stretch, but

00:26:27my mum always said that he couldn't cope with anything being changed in his environment,

00:26:39and they just moved cities.

00:26:42I'm sorry, is your mother saying that your brother is a little controlling of his environment

00:26:48when you have to get up with the TV show half done to clean up your dinner?

00:26:54It does seem a little bit hypocritical now you mention it.

00:26:56My gosh, that's a special kind of blindness to criticise.

00:27:01Well, my son is just a bit hyper-controlling.

00:27:04Get up and clean up those dishes, even though the show's halfway done,

00:27:07because I'm anxious and the environment is messy.

00:27:09You see why I need you, Stefan.

00:27:12Wow, that's something, man.

00:27:16That's like a force of nature, that level of hypocrisy.

00:27:19To be fair, she never actually told him off for wanting the environment in a particular way.

00:27:29She just said it was like that.

00:27:31So, I think she is actually being sympathetic in this case.

00:27:35Well, okay, but then what was hypocritical?

00:27:37Certainly, he was being punished for being overly excitable, I guess.

00:27:47So, if he likes predictability in the environment or a lack of change in the environment,

00:27:53which is common to most children, in my experience.

00:27:55I've had a lot of experience with kids.

00:27:56Of course, I worked in a daycare and all.

00:27:58I've been a stay-at-home dad now for almost 16 years.

00:28:01So, children like some predictability in their environment.

00:28:07Was there a lot of movement for your dad's work?

00:28:09Was there a lot of changes in friends and environment and schools and so on?

00:28:14Well, yes, but I guess it hadn't happened then.

00:28:17Sorry, it happened then.

00:28:19I'm not sure when then is there.

00:28:21Sorry, but at that point when my mum was struggling with him,

00:28:26I mean, I think she struggled basically from the beginning with him.

00:28:29Okay, let me ask you this then.

00:28:33So, how long did your mother stay home before going back to work

00:28:36after she gave birth to your brother?

00:28:39I think it was four or five years.

00:28:41Oh, so she was a stay-at-home mum for the beginning.

00:28:44For a fair while, yeah.

00:28:45Oh, no, that's a long time, right?

00:28:48I don't remember really her.

00:28:51I don't have very many memories of my childhood for some reason,

00:28:55and I don't remember her being at home.

00:28:56I remember being at the childminders.

00:29:01I remember running across the road and the childminder absolutely freaking

00:29:06and getting really upset with me and getting hit for that.

00:29:09I don't really, I don't remember my mum being at home.

00:29:13She does tell a story of me going to nursery,

00:29:16so it's possible that she said she was stayed at home for that long,

00:29:20but also sent us to nursery a few days a week.

00:29:22I'm not sure.

00:29:24Um, does your brother remember her being at home?

00:29:29You know, I haven't asked him, Stephen.

00:29:31No, that's fine. I mean, I get that.

00:29:33So, but you don't remember.

00:29:35I mean, you remember being in a childminders or a nursery from early, right?

00:29:41Yeah.

00:29:41Okay.

00:29:43Um, so she, according to what she says, she stayed at home with your brother,

00:29:50and I guess then you, when you were very young,

00:29:52she stayed at home to raise her kids for five, four or five years.

00:29:55Is that right?

00:29:56Yeah.

00:29:56And then she went back to work.

00:29:58Yeah.

00:29:59Okay.

00:30:00And who took care of you when she went back to work?

00:30:03Or did you, you know, because you would be too young.

00:30:04I guess we were at school by then.

00:30:06No, no, I went to school at four.

00:30:08Um, so I guess she, yeah, so she probably stayed.

00:30:13I mean, that, that would sort of line up.

00:30:15So maybe she underestimated slightly,

00:30:17but I would imagine that she stayed at home until I went to school.

00:30:20Okay.

00:30:21So wildness in boys is often associated with a lack of connection to the father.

00:30:27And...

00:30:27Oh, that's definitely true.

00:30:29Sorry?

00:30:30That's definitely true.

00:30:31Yeah.

00:30:31And so what happens is, uh, boys resent being managed by a mother.

00:30:39Because it, I mean, for whatever reason, it feels like, no, no, no, I'll listen to dad.

00:30:44And, you know, everybody knows this in families that the mom shrieks and the dad speaks calmly

00:30:48and the kids all listen to the dad, right?

00:30:50It's kind of a cliche, but there's some, some real truth in it, right?

00:30:53So he would be wild and not listen to your mother and not want to obey your mother

00:30:58because he would find it humiliating to be controlled by a woman

00:31:04rather than instructed and guided and raised by a man.

00:31:09Okay.

00:31:10And the women's style in general of parental authority is based on stress and upset and

00:31:23all of that.

00:31:24And it's basically like, obey me because mommy's upset.

00:31:29And boys in general resist conforming to female anxieties and upsets and so on.

00:31:39Like, so a typical example would be, uh, the boy doesn't want to kiss his Aunt Edna

00:31:44because she smells like whiskey and has a hairy mole on her lip.

00:31:48Right?

00:31:48And the mom is like, well, you have to because it's polite and it's nice.

00:31:52And the mom basically feels anxiety if the boy doesn't want to kiss his Aunt Edna.

00:31:57But the boy, for reasons we can get into if you want, but the boy does not want to

00:32:02obey the upset of the mother because that just feels like being a slave to her emotions.

00:32:10And, and then the, but the mother can't say, do it because I'm anxious.

00:32:15She says, do it because it's polite.

00:32:16And the boy detects that falseness, right?

00:32:20Because she's saying, no, no, it's polite.

00:32:22It's nice.

00:32:22You got to think of the feelings of others and so on, rather than being honest and saying,

00:32:26I feel really bad if you don't kiss Aunt Edna and I'll be criticized for it.

00:32:30So do it for, you know, do it because I, so she has to make up these morals to cover up

00:32:35a lot of the emotion-based rules.

00:32:40And the boy detects that hypocrisy and does not want to obey it.

00:32:43And there's evolutionary reasons for that.

00:32:45That if, if the man becomes a slave to female emotions, if the boy becomes a slave to female

00:32:50emotions, he's going to end up with a very bossy and domineering wife, which is going

00:32:53to make his life miserable.

00:32:54Right?

00:32:54So the boy fights, yeah, the boy fights and resists being dominated by female anxieties

00:33:00and emotions.

00:33:01Otherwise he can never be any kind of leader in his own household.

00:33:04And he's a cuck.

00:33:05And like, so, so boys, and I, and I remember my mother would, would say this to, to my

00:33:11brother on a regular basis that when we would stay at my aunt and uncle's house, that when

00:33:19my uncle said to my brother, who left the toothpaste cap off the toothpaste tube, my

00:33:25brother literally flew up the stairs to fix it and was eager and happy to do that.

00:33:29But every time my mother told him to do something, he'd roll his eyes.

00:33:32And like, it, it, it's just the nature of, of boys and moms.

00:33:37And I'm sure, sure.

00:33:38That makes everything very happy in the household.

00:33:41Oh, well, because you know, my, my mother would be frustrated by this.

00:33:45Like, why do you listen to him and not to me?

00:33:47And it was very unjust and unfair.

00:33:51And, and, but, you know, I mean, that is what it is.

00:33:54I mean, we, we can, we can find evolution unjust and unfair, but I don't really think

00:33:57that does, that does as much good.

00:34:00So, if your brother was wild, he's distant from his father.

00:34:06He's untrained, untutored, not close to his father.

00:34:08And you're saying that was the case, right?

00:34:11We didn't really see my father at that point.

00:34:15He was working so hard.

00:34:16He never, like, came home until after eight.

00:34:19We only ever saw him at the weekends.

00:34:21Um, and when...

00:34:22Okay, that's nonsense.

00:34:26Sorry, I'm sorry to be so annoying.

00:34:28I really am.

00:34:28I'm so sorry to ask you for your memories and then say that's nonsense.

00:34:32So, you're saying you didn't see your father because he was working so hard?

00:34:37Well, I think, did I say hard?

00:34:39Late, I think, would be more accurate.

00:34:41Okay, late or hard, it doesn't matter.

00:34:43Yeah.

00:34:45Um, that's not why you didn't see your father.

00:34:49Right.

00:34:50Your father was a big shot, right?

00:34:52Not at that point, no.

00:34:55Um, so, because, you know, normally if they're flying people around to various countries,

00:35:00it's because they're more than, you know, they're doing more than manual labor, right?

00:35:04Oh, okay.

00:35:05Well, I guess, um, he was in finance, um, but

00:35:11he, he, I guess he worked his way up on that, so he worked quite late and hard, I guess.

00:35:24But that's a choice.

00:35:28Well, yes.

00:35:30So, he didn't have work like you have an epileptic attack, right?

00:35:35Mm-hmm.

00:35:35I mean, I...

00:35:36Oh, that is definitely true.

00:35:38Yeah, I have, I have been an entrepreneur and, and worked my way up in the corporate

00:35:43world and all these kinds of things.

00:35:45The level of work that you take on is, to a large degree, voluntary.

00:35:50Mm-hmm.

00:35:53So, your father did not have to work late.

00:35:57He chose to work late, and the question is, why?

00:36:01Why did he not come home?

00:36:02Why did he not parent?

00:36:05Why did he have children and not be much of a parent and not be much of a father,

00:36:10particularly when that's harmful for both of his children, but in particular his son?

00:36:15Well, apparently, he used to bath me every night, um, so I guess when we were very little,

00:36:20he spent more time at home, um, but later on, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,

00:36:30but later on, I certainly don't remember seeing him through the week because he was working late.

00:36:35Okay.

00:36:36So, he actually worked harder later, right?

00:36:40Yeah.

00:36:41So, why did he work late?

00:36:44It's not a job requirement.

00:36:45It's not absolute.

00:36:46You don't have to, right?

00:36:49You just say, no, I'm, I'm going home.

00:36:52So, why didn't he come home?

00:36:54Because that put an additional burden on your mother and made your son wilder, and he was

00:37:00missing something very important, right?

00:37:03I mean, I, I, I couldn't work that late with children at home because I would miss my children

00:37:10too much.

00:37:13Yeah, um, well, he obviously chose to, um.

00:37:18So, why?

00:37:19So, why?

00:37:21I suspect it was because he wanted to give my mum the sort of life her parents had given her.

00:37:31Well, that's not it, though.

00:37:33No?

00:37:34Sorry to, I'm really apologizing.

00:37:36I'm so, this almost feels rude, and I, I do apologize.

00:37:39No, the reason I say that.

00:37:40I love it.

00:37:41No, no, the reason, the reason I say that is, uh, I don't know, let's say that I said to my wife,

00:37:47um, I'm now going to work 12 to 14 hours a day so I can make a lot more money, right?

00:37:54What would my wife say?

00:37:55Yep.

00:37:56No.

00:37:57Well, why not?

00:37:58It's more money.

00:38:00She doesn't care about the money.

00:38:01She wants to be home with her and the kids.

00:38:03Right.

00:38:03So, it's not, it's not that your, your father wanted to provide these things, it's that

00:38:09your mother either wanted him to and would reject him otherwise, or he was avoiding the kids,

00:38:18or his wife, or something like that.

00:38:21But it, it's not causal that because your mother came for money,

00:38:25your father couldn't see his children.

00:38:28It depended on what she wanted out of that.

00:38:30Well, it, it depends on the two of them.

00:38:33Because if your father is working late, right?

00:38:37I mean, you have a husband, you have kids.

00:38:38I mean, if your, if your husband was working 12, 14 hours a day,

00:38:41week after week, month after month, year after year, you'd never let it get to that point.

00:38:46You'd say, whoa, whoa, buddy, what's going on here?

00:38:49Like, you gotta be home.

00:38:51Like, I miss you.

00:38:52Let's, let, you know, you wanted to become a father.

00:38:54Let's, let's, let's parents.

00:38:55Like, I, I feel like I have a, an ATM who, who snores on the other side of the bed.

00:39:02Like, this is not right.

00:39:04Like, what's going on?

00:39:05Why, why would, why would it be like this?

00:39:08We can't live like this.

00:39:09This is not right.

00:39:10I miss you.

00:39:10I'm lonely.

00:39:11This is sad and tragic.

00:39:12And the kids miss you.

00:39:13And, you know, you're, you're not connected with them.

00:39:16And this is going to be terrible for over the course of their life.

00:39:18And like, it would be, it would be gentle, I suppose, but it would be pretty insistent, right?

00:39:24Yeah.

00:39:29You know, if, if my wife, I'm just making, if my wife had gotten really into karate competitions

00:39:34for some reason when, when my daughter was very little and it's like, well, I'll, I'll be gone

00:39:38most of the week on karate competitions.

00:39:40I'd be like, I think not.

00:39:44I think we need to talk about that.

00:39:45I don't think that's the right approach.

00:39:48Right.

00:39:48And, and I would recognize, and you would recognize, and everybody, I guess, except

00:39:52your mom and dad would recognize that this would be a sign of some severe dysfunction

00:39:56that needed to be addressed, right?

00:39:59Yep.

00:39:59Absolutely.

00:40:00So what the heck was going on with your parents that your mom didn't insist that your father

00:40:04be home and make sure he knew he was welcome and say, I don't care about the money as much

00:40:08as I care about you.

00:40:10And we've decided to have kids and the kids don't need money.

00:40:13They need their father.

00:40:18She did say that she was very lonely when they moved because she didn't see him.

00:40:26So I'm not convinced it completely came from her.

00:40:30I'm not convinced either.

00:40:32It's a team, right?

00:40:33I mean, there's no, there's never one position in a marriage, right?

00:40:36You know that you're one flesh, right?

00:40:38Absolutely.

00:40:39So, so what the heck was going on that he chose to stay in some fluorescent office,

00:40:46grinding away on a spreadsheet rather than come home to his family?

00:40:51Well, I know my mom had quite severe mood swings at the time.

00:40:59We've got a family history of basically suffering from our cycles quite badly.

00:41:08Both.

00:41:09I think my mom's generation is the first generation.

00:41:10You mean like blue madness, menstruation?

00:41:14Yeah, well, she's the first generation that hasn't had to have hysterectomies.

00:41:18Hysterectomies.

00:41:20Like endometriosis or?

00:41:23No, more heavy periods.

00:41:27Okay, so she's got hormonal issues, right?

00:41:30Yeah, yeah.

00:41:32And I mean, obviously she sought medical attention.

00:41:34Was she put on any supplements?

00:41:36Was she put on the pill or any other hormonal?

00:41:39I don't think she did.

00:41:40Well, she went on the pill once and then said it almost killed her.

00:41:43And then.

00:41:44I'm sorry.

00:41:46Oh, you're back.

00:41:47Hang on a second here.

00:41:49Hold on.

00:41:50My hypocrisy antennae is twitching a little.

00:41:54I'm sure it's unfair and unjust.

00:41:56I'm sure we will get back to worshipping the stone goddess image of your mother.

00:42:01Your mother said that the pill almost killed her?

00:42:04Yeah.

00:42:05And then she complained that you were overdramatic.

00:42:09Wasn't that the word?

00:42:14Yes, she did.

00:42:15Now you mention it.

00:42:16Overdramatic.

00:42:17The pill almost killed me.

00:42:19I can't believe how overdramatic you are.

00:42:24I can't think where it comes from.

00:42:26No, it's a mystery.

00:42:27You know, we just have to chalk that up to ineffability.

00:42:31Now, of course, I don't know.

00:42:32Maybe it did.

00:42:32But my gosh, that seems like a rather strong way to put it.

00:42:36It does, doesn't it?

00:42:37But that is exactly the way she does it.

00:42:39I'll say it.

00:42:40It's not me this time.

00:42:41Right.

00:42:42Okay.

00:42:43So, tell me a little bit about these mood swings.

00:42:50Well, I think she just got very, I think they're just like standard female mood swings, but more.

00:43:01So she'd get miserable and overdramatic and crying and things like that.

00:43:10And did she ever try and figure out, I mean, did she didn't go for hormone replacement therapy

00:43:17or anything like that?

00:43:18And did she ever try psychotherapy just to find out if maybe there were other things

00:43:21going on other than hormones?

00:43:24Eventually, she was agnus castus and my dad called them her happy pills.

00:43:34So I don't know what you're referring to.

00:43:37It's a vitamin type thing.

00:43:43It's just like over the counter.

00:43:45I'm sorry, the solution to vitamins?

00:43:48Yeah, pretty much.

00:43:50And ironically, the solution to my brother was also vitamins.

00:43:54Sorry, I'm not obviously any kind of nutritional expert, but I've not heard much of a relationship

00:44:00between vitamins and hormones.

00:44:02I'm not sure how hormonal stuff can be dealt with through vitamins.

00:44:05Again, I don't know, I'm just a bit surprised.

00:44:07Well, I mean, they are.

00:44:10I mean, I've looked into them and they are supposed to do things to the female cycle.

00:44:16They're a bit like, you know, how soy.

00:44:19Oh, like the soy with the estrogen and all that, right?

00:44:22Yeah.

00:44:23Yeah, it's sort of that sort of stuff.

00:44:25So I think it's basically plausible in this case.

00:44:29I meant, no, no, they're not vitamins.

00:44:32They're just, I don't know why I'm saying vitamins.

00:44:34They're not vitamins.

00:44:34They're just similar, sort of supplements.

00:44:39That's the word I was looking for.

00:44:40They're supplements.

00:44:42Interesting.

00:44:43OK, so supplements did something to her hormones.

00:44:47Well, she believed they did.

00:44:49And whether that had more to do with it or...

00:44:51But she never measured anything.

00:44:53She never got the blood work.

00:44:54She never, is that right?

00:44:56She's not very scientific, no.

00:44:58Well, OK, but your dad is.

00:45:04Yes.

00:45:04I mean, he's in the oil industry.

00:45:06You're going to have to be kind of empirical, right?

00:45:11Interesting.

00:45:11I don't think she ever went for blood workups or anything.

00:45:15So how?

00:45:16Tell me more about these mood swings, like from what to what?

00:45:20I never really saw them because by the time she'd solved them,

00:45:29by the time that I was around, pretty much.

00:45:32But I guess she just got unbelievably anxious and stressed out.

00:45:38Sorry, I'm skidding around the timeline here like a greased up Andrani.

00:45:44Sorry, so she'd solved the hormonal issues by the time you were born?

00:45:49I think so, yeah.

00:45:50OK, so then this has nothing to do with why your dad wasn't home,

00:45:53because she'd already solved the hormonal issues.

00:45:55We're talking about why your dad didn't come home to the kids.

00:45:59That's true.

00:45:59I'd forgotten about that.

00:46:01Seems important.

00:46:02So why did your dad not come home to the kids?

00:46:04Wasn't hormone issues, wasn't mood swings, because these were solved.

00:46:12I'm supposed to know this, aren't I?

00:46:13I'm not going to get away with saying I don't know.

00:46:16Well, I mean, it may not be in your conscious mind, but it's there somewhere.

00:46:20I mean, if you can't understand your father, we can't understand anyone, right?

00:46:23Because you were with him, we've been around him for decades, right?

00:46:27Well, maybe he's very much an introvert, so maybe the whole family thing just stressed him out too

00:46:37much to be there.

00:46:41Well, but if he's there, the whole family situation is calmer.

00:46:47I mean, your brother would calm down.

00:46:48I mean, kids who have, and I remember this from a novel research like over a quarter

00:46:53century ago, the kids who are supposed to have this ADHD, the symptoms often almost

00:47:01completely vanish when they're in the presence of their father.

00:47:04Okay.

00:47:06So saying, well, family life is so chaotic it can't be there is like it's chaotic because

00:47:10you're not there.

00:47:16And honestly, I don't care.

00:47:18Fundamentally, I don't care.

00:47:20Like if I buy a dog and then I lock my dog in the basement and refuse to take the dog

00:47:25for a walk because I say, I'm agoraphobic, it's like, okay, then don't get a dog.

00:47:32Introverts don't get a big get out of jail free card so they can be neglectful parents.

00:47:39If you're an introvert, don't have kids.

00:47:41But if you have kids, you owe them time, care, love, attention, and guidance.

00:47:46It's not optional based upon your personality type.

00:47:51No, definitely not.

00:47:54So let's try again, right?

00:47:58Why didn't he want to come home?

00:48:08Was he having affairs?

00:48:11Definitely not.

00:48:11No.

00:48:12Okay.

00:48:12So it wasn't fair to anyone but my mom.

00:48:15Okay.

00:48:15It wasn't affairs.

00:48:19I mean, I can tell you the answer, but it's sad.

00:48:25Go ahead.

00:48:26It's because he's not in love.

00:48:33That doesn't seem right though.

00:48:35No.

00:48:35Because they absolutely adore each other.

00:48:37It is right.

00:48:39It is right.

00:48:39Because if your wife says she's lonely, you come the fuck home.

00:48:50So if she says I'm lonely, you don't just keep working.

00:48:55That's not love.

00:48:58Love is, you know, these stories of men who cross deserts and oceans to be with the woman

00:49:03they loved and your dad can't even cut out of work two hours early.

00:49:08And it's not even two hours early.

00:49:09He just can't come home from work on time.

00:49:13Even though his wife is lonely and his house is chaotic and his kids miss him and his son's

00:49:17going half nuts from father absence.

00:49:20It's a lack of love.

00:49:22If you love your wife, you help her with the parenting.

00:49:25You co-parent.

00:49:27Otherwise, you put an absolutely unfair burden on her.

00:49:32If you love your wife, working for a couple of extra hours in some fluorescent ass office

00:49:37wrestling with Excel is not what you'll take instead of your wife's lovely company.

00:49:46It's a lack of love.

00:49:48It has to be.

00:49:48There's no other answer.

00:49:50If he loved your wife more or you kids more, he'd be home.

00:49:57Okay.

00:49:59I'm happy to hear our counter arguments, but I can't think of anything else that would fit.

00:50:04It just seems strange.

00:50:06My dad always hugs my mom before he goes up to bed.

00:50:11Maybe they weren't in love then, but I would certainly say that they are now.

00:50:18She did say they had some difficult times in their relationship, and she also said that

00:50:24they used to have fights, but all she really wanted was a cuddle.

00:50:30But all she wanted was a cuddle?

00:50:31Maybe they were…

00:50:33I'm not sure what that means.

00:50:36They had fights, but all she wanted was a cuddle.

00:50:39I'm sorry.

00:50:40Sorry if I'm being obtuse.

00:50:41I'm trying to follow, but I don't follow that.

00:50:43Maybe I'm not explaining it well.

00:50:46They'd basically be fighting and all she'd want was some closeness from him.

00:50:52Okay.

00:50:53So she's saying that…

00:50:55Now he's very cuddly.

00:50:56Sorry.

00:50:57She's saying that she fought with him when she just wanted to cuddle him.

00:51:01Why wouldn't she say, let's stop fighting, just give me a cuddle?

00:51:06Yeah.

00:51:08It sounds like she's blaming him entirely.

00:51:10Okay.

00:51:12Yeah.

00:51:12Yeah, she is.

00:51:15Yeah, my mom doesn't discuss negative emotions, really.

00:51:20Okay, so if your father learned more about love later on in life, right, there's one

00:51:27way you'd know about that.

00:51:31Okay.

00:51:32The way you'd know about that is your father…

00:51:36Does he live at all close to you?

00:51:38Yes.

00:51:39So your father would come over and he would say, listen, lovely daughter of mine,

00:51:46oh, you know, I've really been thinking about your childhood and all of the work that I

00:51:51did.

00:51:51For what?

00:51:52For money that's come and gone, for spreadsheets nobody cares about, for PowerPoints and

00:51:58presentations and business cases and business plans that are long, have been landfill for

00:52:0230 years.

00:52:03And I just think about all the time that I wasn't home and it's just breaking my heart.

00:52:07All the time that you went to bed on your own, all the times, the whole, all the weekdays

00:52:11that you, I moved you to a whole new country and then just abandoned you for the office.

00:52:15And I'm just, I don't know if it's because I heard that stupid Harry Chapin song or in

00:52:19the living, like the Mike and the Mechanics song, but I just, I'm wretched.

00:52:25I'm wretched at the choices I made when you kids were growing up, move you to a new

00:52:30country, abandon you and your mother, by the way, and spend all my time at the office.

00:52:35I think of how much I missed because I'm seeing my grandkids now and I'm thinking about

00:52:39how much time I missed and it's just breaking my heart.

00:52:42And I, I'm really sorry.

00:52:44And I just wanted to know what your thoughts are about it.

00:52:49Well, that certainly hasn't happened.

00:52:50Right.

00:52:51So, so he has not processed that he wasn't home.

00:52:55No.

00:52:56Okay.

00:52:56So then he doesn't, nothing much has changed.

00:53:11I mean, that does seem strange to me because my, my dad was always, whenever I'd have a,

00:53:17whenever my brother would wind me up and I get sent up to my room, my dad was always

00:53:22the one who came up and talked to me and said it was all right and put me down.

00:53:27Sorry, but why was he talking to you?

00:53:30I mean, obviously it's good that he was talking to you, but wouldn't, wouldn't he need to

00:53:35solve the problem with your brother?

00:53:39I mean, it's fine talking to the victim.

00:53:41I think that's nice, but I mean, that doesn't prevent the victimization from continuing

00:53:44ad infinitum, right?

00:53:47I don't know.

00:53:48It's like my parents really took the sticks and stones can hurt your bones, but words

00:53:53will never hurt you to heart.

00:53:56They didn't really seem to think that being sarcastic or snippy was, was a problem.

00:54:05If he ever raised his hand to me or anything, he'd get in trouble.

00:54:10But as long as it was just verbal, I don't think he really did.

00:54:15Oh, so you, so if, if you guys were said horrible things to your parents, that was fine.

00:54:23Or if you did that now, they'd be fine.

00:54:25Oh, no, that would, that was definitely not fine.

00:54:27No, but sorry.

00:54:29I thought it was sticks and stones.

00:54:30So as long as you don't hit your parents with sticks and stones, then you can say anything

00:54:34you want to them and it's totally fine, right?

00:54:37That would be more hypocrisy, I think.

00:54:39Yes.

00:54:40Okay.

00:54:41So they do believe that sticks and stones are very important.

00:54:44Right?

00:54:46Sorry, that sticks and stones are important, but words can also harm, right?

00:54:51Yes.

00:54:52Right.

00:54:52So if, if you, if you said to your teacher at school, uh, you, you malevolent, maleficent

00:54:59bitch, and then the teacher called in outrage to your parents, your parents would say, no,

00:55:05it's just words.

00:55:06She didn't hit you with a stick.

00:55:07She didn't hit you with a stone.

00:55:08So suck it up and be, and who cares?

00:55:11And I think as well, I wasn't really allowed to retaliate in the same way.

00:55:21Um, yeah, it would just seem that it was just in this case, specific case that it was okay.

00:55:30Okay.

00:55:30So why was it okay for your brother to verbally abuse you?

00:55:34And, and I don't want to overuse the phrase, right?

00:55:36I mean, uh, so what would he, what would he say or what would he do that was verbal?

00:55:40I mean, obviously I assume there was physical stuff at times, but what was the verbal stuff?

00:55:43Yeah.

00:55:44Um, he, he told me I was adopted.

00:55:48Um, he called me wobble bottom for years.

00:55:54Sorry.

00:55:55Yeah.

00:55:56Something from, um, Blackadder show.

00:56:01Are you pleased to see me or is that just a canoe in your card piece?

00:56:03No, I understand.

00:56:04And the other thing too, is that, uh, it is a funny thing about siblings and the fat thing,

00:56:09right?

00:56:11You know, so your brother calls you wobble bottom for years, and then you end up being

00:56:14a feverish runner and dieter, right?

00:56:17And he's a beast.

00:56:18So there we go.

00:56:19And he's a beast.

00:56:20What do you mean?

00:56:22He's a beast.

00:56:23Oh, he's a beast.

00:56:24Sorry.

00:56:25I thought you said he's a beast.

00:56:25Yeah.

00:56:26So he's a beast.

00:56:27Okay.

00:56:27So, uh, yeah, I, I, that's, uh, my, my brother used to call me fatty all the time, which was,

00:56:31I was not, I was like on the swim team, water polo team, the cross country team.

00:56:36I was lean as a whippet, but it's just, it's just a funny thing, right?

00:56:39And it's sort of an impossible situation, right?

00:56:41So he'd say, hey, fatty.

00:56:43And it's like, don't call me that, you know?

00:56:46And it's like, well, then you can't take a joke, you know, like you can't win.

00:56:49Right.

00:56:49And so, so he was nasty saying that you were adopted, terrifying you with spiders,

00:56:55calling you wobble bottom, which I know it sounds funny, but in particular for women, right?

00:57:01Um, girls, right.

00:57:02For girls, your, your butt is important, right?

00:57:04I was, there was an old British show where this woman was like, uh, I'm not even eating

00:57:08and my butt's getting bigger.

00:57:09I can, I can hear it back there snacking.

00:57:12So it is, and this was before a big, big butt was allowed.

00:57:16You say, oh no, I get it.

00:57:18Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:57:20For sure.

00:57:20I mean, you've got to have that princess Anne non-existent, uh, seat seat magnet.

00:57:25So, so, uh, it's, it's, it's not in the adopted thing.

00:57:29That's like, that's an existential attack on identity.

00:57:33And how old were you when he said that you were adopted?

00:57:37That was in Malaysia.

00:57:38So I'll have been not much older than eight.

00:57:42Right.

00:57:43So he's very skilled.

00:57:44So where does he get his skill and verbal abuse?

00:57:57I don't know.

00:57:58I, none of my, my family don't do this and we weren't with anyone else.

00:58:02Okay.

00:58:03Well, I mean, you don't know, right?

00:58:05No, you don't know what caregiver he may or may not have had when he was younger,

00:58:12when you were younger, or maybe even before you were there.

00:58:14Right.

00:58:16Okay.

00:58:17So, uh, and of course your parents were aware of this, you know, just this absolute

00:58:23viper tongue that your, your brother had.

00:58:25Right.

00:58:26And what did they do?

00:58:35I don't remember them doing much about it.

00:58:38I mean, some of this was because when I was at boarding school and came back and then

00:58:44he was still at boarding school.

00:58:46Oh, and he was pretty much, you got away.

00:58:50I think everybody felt that way.

00:58:51So he'd come home for holidays and absolutely.

00:58:56It was like the, the red carpet show for him.

00:58:59They do all this stuff and make all this effort.

00:59:02And as an adult, I can understand why you would do that because you only see him that

00:59:05often, but it really made me feel.

00:59:07But it makes it horrible to go back.

00:59:08That's cruel.

00:59:11Right.

00:59:11Right. Because I mean, then it's like home is paradise and I've got to go back to prison,

00:59:14right?

00:59:16You know, I never thought of it from that point of view.

00:59:18That's almost sadistic.

00:59:20Look how great we have it here.

00:59:21And then of course he imagines that that's your life.

00:59:25Yeah.

00:59:25And he's got to go back to, you know, cold gray boarding school and, and you get, you

00:59:30know, cakes, tea, crumpets and clowns every weekend.

00:59:33Yeah.

00:59:35All right.

00:59:36So, I mean, your, your, your parents couldn't have been driving more division and hostility

00:59:39if they tried, right?

00:59:42It does seem to have been quite impressive.

00:59:44Yeah.

00:59:44Okay.

00:59:45So they knew that he was verbally abusive in absolutely horrible ways and did nothing.

00:59:56Well, I never wanted to get my brother into trouble, so it's entirely possible I didn't

01:00:00really tell them.

01:00:00No, it's not your job.

01:00:01No, it's their job to know.

01:00:02It's their job to know.

01:00:03Right.

01:00:04Okay.

01:00:04This is occurring, right?

01:00:05It's not your job to tell them.

01:00:07It's their job to know.

01:00:09Agreed?

01:00:11Yeah, that, that makes sense.

01:00:12Okay.

01:00:13And the question is, why didn't they do anything?

01:00:20Why didn't they do anything to protect you?

01:00:26Because, I mean, this, this level of sort of verbal attack and assault and abuse, I

01:00:40mean, it has a big effect.

01:00:41Yeah.

01:00:44I'm sure I don't need to tell you that, right?

01:00:45It's a big effect.

01:00:47Right?

01:00:48It's hard to trust, it's hard to feel secure, you know, having a malevolent presence in

01:00:54your own home that you're unprotected from is really, really disturbing.

01:01:00And I absolutely idolized him.

01:01:02I just desperately wanted him to like me.

01:01:04Well, of course you did, but it's not idolizing, it's fear.

01:01:08Right.

01:01:08You didn't idolize him because he was such a wonderful guy who protected you, but you

01:01:12didn't idolize him because he was such a wonderful guy who protected you.

01:01:14You didn't idolize him because he was such a wonderful guy who protected you from bullying

01:01:17and loved you and cared for you and played with you and supported you.

01:01:21I mean, you had to get him to like you because when he didn't like you, he, like, tore your

01:01:25soul half apart with his blade tongue.

01:01:29And also, he was really good with people and I could never work them out.

01:01:35Sorry, he was very good with people, like, you mean charismatic and people liked him

01:01:39and all?

01:01:40Yeah, he was charismatic, people liked him.

01:01:42Well, you know what, that's a sign off, right?

01:01:50Superficial public charm and private cruelty, you know what that's a sign off, right?

01:01:55No.

01:01:56Sociopathy.

01:02:00I'm not saying he's a sociopath, I don't know, right?

01:02:02I'm not a diagnostician, but, I mean, if you look up

01:02:07the embarkers of sociopathy, it can be helpful to get this kind of information,

01:02:16not obviously as a diagnosis, but as a guidepost, as a set of signs that are probably worth

01:02:25looking into.

01:02:26And the superficial charm is very common in this personality structure.

01:02:33Like con men, you think of con men, right?

01:02:37They're very cruel and they kind of eviscerate people and destroy their life savings and

01:02:41pillage them and so on, but they're immensely charming and they have to be likable because

01:02:46you have to attract people in order to exploit them, right?

01:02:50And he could lie and I just never could.

01:02:54He always used to say I was horribly gullible because I'd believe anything he said.

01:02:57Right.

01:02:59And he lied without a conscience?

01:03:01He think, yeah, he thought, he just didn't seem to, like, he'd think it was funny to

01:03:10pretend that he believed in flat earth theory just to wind people up.

01:03:14Right, okay.

01:03:16Okay, so, this is, right, just a little check mark here, we're not diagnosing, just out

01:03:21of curiosity, right?

01:03:23Okay, let's see here.

01:03:27Difficulty appreciating the negative aspects of their behavior.

01:03:32Sure.

01:03:33Obviously, he was cruel to you, right?

01:03:36I think most people have that, though, to be fair.

01:03:38No, no, this is, it's not, no.

01:03:42No, most people can recognize the negative aspects of their behavior.

01:03:44Sociopathy is not super common.

01:03:47Risk-taking.

01:03:49Takes risks.

01:03:50Now, as a kid, the sort of running into roads and climbing the bookshelves and so on, I

01:03:55mean, obviously, there's some level of risk that you should take as a kid to learn how

01:03:59to manage risk, but when he was younger, in particular, was there risks that he took that

01:04:04didn't seem to make much sense?

01:04:07Well, I mean, when he was at boarding school, he seemed to get a broken limb every term.

01:04:14Okay, so, the risk-taking is a yes.

01:04:16What about impulsivity?

01:04:18Doesn't seem to control emotions and acts on impulse.

01:04:21Well, that would explain the obesity, and he was bad with money, originally, as well.

01:04:28Yeah, violating the rights of others through dishonest actions.

01:04:36I mean, to me, you do have some right to peace and security in your own home, and if he lies

01:04:41to you and says that you're adopted and frightens you with spiders and all this kinds of stuff,

01:04:46you know, that's in that realm.

01:04:49Okay.

01:04:52Okay.

01:04:53Arrogance.

01:04:56Well, he used to have that.

01:04:58Okay.

01:04:59Manipulation.

01:05:06Well, I guess being my parents thought he was wonderful for a very long time.

01:05:12Right.

01:05:13Okay.

01:05:14Difficulty recognising emotion.

01:05:16Yeah, he never used to understand why people were upset.

01:05:21Okay.

01:05:22Being callous.

01:05:25Well, yeah.

01:05:26Of course.

01:05:28Constant lying or deception.

01:05:31Yep.

01:05:32Okay.

01:05:32Not understanding the difference between right and wrong, moral and immoral.

01:05:39Oh, I think so, yeah.

01:05:41Yeah.

01:05:42Okay.

01:05:42So, I mean, he hits just about everything on the checklist, which, again, it's a checklist,

01:05:47right?

01:05:47It's not like some formal diagnostic, but that's important, right?

01:05:55So, you know, when you say, well, he was charming, and that certainly is the trait sometimes,

01:06:02for sure.

01:06:03But so,

01:06:12but definitely the charm.

01:06:17Yeah.

01:06:18Superficial charm and powers of persuasion.

01:06:20Sociopaths can be charming, cunning, and highly persuasive people who easily get people

01:06:24to like, agree with, and help them.

01:06:27These traits are superficial in nature and tend to wear off the more often a person has

01:06:31contact with them.

01:06:34For example, you start dating a sociopath and they drop the charm once they, quote,

01:06:37have you.

01:06:38Over time, it will become clear that the sociopath is not an honest or trustworthy person, and

01:06:42most people will distance themselves from them.

01:06:44Still, they can be very good at making a first impression, captivating others, and persuading

01:06:47people to do things for them.

01:06:48Yeah.

01:06:50Anyway, you can, of course, look at these things yourself.

01:06:53And again, I say this with all caution that, you know, we're not psychologists and we can't

01:06:57diagnose, but I do think, yeah, I do think that it's important to look at these kinds

01:07:02of, because there are these kinds of patterns as a whole that whether, no,

01:07:08no matter what we call them, it is sort of important to understand how these patterns

01:07:12might be informing someone's behavior, if that makes sense.

01:07:15Yep.

01:07:16Okay.

01:07:17So, then the question is, where might all this be coming from?

01:07:24So, I take it these things aren't biological, then?

01:07:41I mean, I don't know if anyone knows for sure, but I find it impossible to believe that a

01:07:50child who's truly loved and empathized with would grow up with no capacity to empathize

01:07:54with anyone.

01:07:56I can't believe that a child who would be raised with kindness, love, and connection

01:08:02would then turn around and torture his sister mentally for years and years and years.

01:08:08I mean, to me, that would be as crazy as a kid growing up in Japan to Japanese parents

01:08:15being taught Japanese and then suddenly being fluent in ancient Aramaic.

01:08:20Yeah.

01:08:20Like, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

01:08:22I mean, it's kind of like, okay, if the brain is like a bone and the bone gets broken,

01:08:27it doesn't just break on its own.

01:08:29You're not just born with the bone broken.

01:08:30Like, I mean, something had to break it.

01:08:32Well, my mom said that he used to tell them everything, but I don't know.

01:08:50But my parents are very, I mean, they're very boomer.

01:08:55They're very closed off.

01:08:58We were latchkey kids at one point.

01:09:01Sorry, how old were you then?

01:09:05Well, it must just be me, actually, because I'm pretty sure it was after boarding school.

01:09:09So my brother, I mean, he wouldn't be given a key at 11, would he?

01:09:12That would be ridiculous.

01:09:14Oh, no, I was a latchkey kid earlier than that.

01:09:20Could happen.

01:09:20I mean, yeah.

01:09:24I remember walking home on our own before we went to Malaysia.

01:09:30So yeah, I did that.

01:09:33I mean, from the age of sort of eight onwards, I would walk home and be a latchkey kid.

01:09:37And you don't have any particular details because, of course, he's not on the call.

01:09:41But how has your brother's life turned out as a whole?

01:09:46Well, not too badly.

01:09:47He's married with two kids.

01:09:51They don't seem particularly happy, his wife and him.

01:09:57Has he ever had a conversation with you?

01:09:58Have you ever had a conversation with him about his cruelty to you as a child?

01:10:10And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have.

01:10:11I don't know, right?

01:10:12I'm just curious if you have.

01:10:15I have.

01:10:18But he still just thinks it was a joke and I was overreacting.

01:10:23Oh, so he hasn't in particular gotten any better with regards to empathy?

01:10:31No.

01:10:34No.

01:10:35And I think maybe I should do something about that.

01:10:39I don't know.

01:10:39I mean, it may be impossible, right?

01:10:43Yeah, but I should talk to his kids.

01:10:47Yeah, I wonder.

01:10:48I wonder.

01:10:49I wonder.

01:10:50Okay.

01:10:52All right.

01:10:53So, we still don't know exactly why your father didn't come home, other than my theory is that

01:11:02and this is like, this is just empirically the case.

01:11:05This is almost like a tautology or almost praxeological.

01:11:08Like, it just has to be true.

01:11:10That if someone prefers to stay at work rather than spend time with his wife and children,

01:11:17he lacks love for his wife and children.

01:11:22I remember when my mum had myocarditis when I was about 16.

01:11:34And she, I came home and she wasn't there because she'd gone to hospital.

01:11:40She'd gone to see the doctor and they'd had to take her straight to the hospital.

01:11:45And dad's boss told them that they didn't think his mind was in the job and that he

01:11:56should work harder and he told them to f themselves and walked out.

01:12:03Sorry, your dad told them that?

01:12:05Yeah.

01:12:05Okay.

01:12:05Yeah.

01:12:06Okay, so that's a good thing.

01:12:07My wife's in hospital and I'm almost dying.

01:12:09That means that he can absolutely work less anytime he wants.

01:12:15Okay, so then the question is why didn't he?

01:12:18Well, he had to lack love.

01:12:25Now, of course, some people could say that, well, you know, he did love his family but

01:12:31he just didn't know how to deal with all of the chaos and the problems.

01:12:38I mean, it doesn't sound like a very happy home to me.

01:12:41Again, I'm sure you can correct me if I go astray.

01:12:45But it doesn't sound like a very happy home insofar as your brother's cruel and you're,

01:12:52what did you say, you were playing with beads in your room or something like that?

01:12:57Yeah.

01:12:58Yeah.

01:12:58You're kind of isolated.

01:12:59Your brother's roaming around dissatisfied and contentious and difficult and your mom's,

01:13:05I guess she's recovered from the hormonal swings or something like that.

01:13:09But I mean, did your parents, did they set up board games?

01:13:12Did they enjoy playing with you?

01:13:13Did they enjoy teaching you things?

01:13:15Did they enjoy your company?

01:13:16Did they seek you out?

01:13:17Did they make sure you were included?

01:13:19Did you feel like you were treasured by them?

01:13:21I mean, how did that go?

01:13:25Not so much.

01:13:26I remember when we visited my aunt and uncle, I used to like sitting down with the adults

01:13:36because they'd talk to me.

01:13:38So I suspect that my parents didn't really, I don't really remember them interacting with me.

01:13:49Oh, so they didn't really play with you?

01:13:57Sorry, if you said something, I missed it.

01:13:58Sorry, go ahead.

01:13:59No, no, I was just thinking we'd go walking with my dad at the weekends, all of us,

01:14:06but he'd like traipse off off ahead and we'd all be like...

01:14:10Oh, I've been there.

01:14:11I remember going to Africa with my father and he took me climbing these mountains

01:14:15and he, you know, he hiked for a living, right?

01:14:17And he was just plowing on up ahead and he just called back on me that if I was thirsty,

01:14:22I should suck on a rock.

01:14:23I'm like, like your heart?

01:14:24Okay, got it.

01:14:27All right.

01:14:28Okay, so that's not playing with you, obviously.

01:14:30In fact, that's just, that's being, sorry, a bit of an a-hole.

01:14:34Yeah, it's not as fun.

01:14:36If you kids can't keep up, I've got a pace to keep.

01:14:38It's like, you a-hole.

01:14:41He did eventually just do it by himself, which I think probably was the better idea.

01:14:45No, that was not the better idea.

01:14:47The better idea was to stop being an a-hole and spend some time with your children.

01:14:56Oh, but he kept up a good pace and I guess that's what matters.

01:14:59It's bizarre because he's so good with my kids, but he never did any of this stuff with me.

01:15:05You want me to read those descriptions again about charm and all that?

01:15:10You want me to go through that?

01:15:11I can do that again if you like.

01:15:15But also, I mean, that's cruel, right?

01:15:17Because if he's really good with your kids and he doesn't ever reference the fact that

01:15:21he wasn't good with you, then he's just kind of messing with your head.

01:15:24Oh, this is where your brother's cruelty comes from.

01:15:29Yeah, okay, got it.

01:15:32It comes from your dad.

01:15:32Well, I have a cousin.

01:15:33No, it comes from your dad.

01:15:37Because if your dad is really good with your kids, right, then he would notice the difference

01:15:42and he'd say, wow, you know, I'm really enjoying your kids and yet I spent a lot of time not

01:15:48spending time with you and your brother and now I realize how much I missed.

01:15:51I'm so sorry.

01:15:54No, what he's doing is he's coming over and he's saying, hey, I'm really great with kids.

01:15:57Boy, there must have been something wrong with you guys when we were younger because

01:16:00look how good with kids I am.

01:16:04It does seem that way, doesn't it?

01:16:06Because, I mean, he's got little watering cans for the kids.

01:16:09I don't remember ever little bits for them.

01:16:20Okay, did your parents give you, or can you think of a piece of advice or wisdom that

01:16:27your parents gave you when you were growing up that you still find value in today, that

01:16:31you still use today?

01:16:33No, I don't remember them ever talking about anything like that.

01:16:38So, were you parented?

01:16:41I mean, they didn't play with you.

01:16:42They didn't talk with you.

01:16:42They didn't interact with you.

01:16:43They didn't give you advice.

01:16:44They didn't give you wisdom.

01:16:45They didn't transfer knowledge.

01:16:46They didn't prepare you for adulthood.

01:16:48Were you, in fact, parented?

01:16:50I think the plan was for me to go to boarding school, and I sort of scuppered that on them.

01:16:57No, because that was when you were older, right?

01:17:02Yeah.

01:17:05I mean, were you parented?

01:17:09Not really, no.

01:17:11Okay, so not really.

01:17:13In what way?

01:17:13I mean, I don't count, like, they gave you food and shelter.

01:17:15I mean, you can get that in a concentration camp or jail, right?

01:17:18So, they didn't give you advice.

01:17:21They didn't play with you.

01:17:22They didn't enjoy your company.

01:17:23They didn't talk much with you.

01:17:24Certainly not about anything important.

01:17:26When you go for a walk, your dad's powering on ahead, which is weird and horrible, horrible

01:17:34to do, because it tells your kids that, hey, you're not interesting.

01:17:37I don't want to walk with you.

01:17:38I don't care to show you the flowers.

01:17:39I don't care to describe to you what the bees are doing.

01:17:42I don't want to ask you what you think of this, that, and the other.

01:17:45I mean, there's a real rage in that, which is, I'm going ahead.

01:17:49You kids are too slow.

01:17:51I mean, there's real coldness and anger in all of that.

01:18:01No, that's definitely true.

01:18:03I mean, I'm sort of, huh, well, enough about you.

01:18:06Let's make it about me now, right?

01:18:08So, no, the reason I'm sort of thinking about all of this stuff is that, you know, my daughter's

01:18:12going out into the world, right?

01:18:13So, she's going to be 16 this year, and she recently got her first job.

01:18:19Now, she is so good at this job, it's crazy, right?

01:18:23And, I mean, first couple of days, everyone's like, wow, you're so efficient, and you really

01:18:28understand the business, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

01:18:30So, she's making business cases, and why?

01:18:33Why?

01:18:33Well, because I've been an entrepreneur for like 30 years or whatever, and we've been

01:18:38talking about business and what it means to make money and how to provide value and, you

01:18:43know, who pays your salary as the customer, not the boss, and like all of this kind of

01:18:46stuff, since she was knee-high to a grasshopper.

01:18:50So, when she goes out into the world, and I'm really aware of this now in a way that,

01:18:55you know, you kind of live in this kind of half cocoon of the family, and then your kid's

01:18:58supposed to go out in the world.

01:18:59She's gone out, she's made friends, she's got a great group of friends, and these aren't

01:19:05people she grew up with as a little kid, right?

01:19:07So, she made a great group of friends, she's going out into the world, she's, you know,

01:19:12she's doing shows with me that go out into the world, even live streams, and she does

01:19:15a great job, and she's just doing really well in her work and so on.

01:19:20And that's because she's been well prepared for these things.

01:19:25I mean, I remember when I got jobs, I just had to figure everything out for myself, because

01:19:28it wasn't like my mom was going to help me understand how to work well.

01:19:34So, that's sort of what I'm, that's why I'm sort of asking, I've been asking people these

01:19:37days, right?

01:19:38Okay, because if you were to say to my daughter, you know, what advice if your parents give

01:19:43you that you still use to this day, she'd think, she would say, probably, I can think

01:19:46of 10 things I use this morning.

01:19:50So, you weren't close to your parents, and your mother didn't teach you, despite the

01:20:00insane fact that it was her job to teach children.

01:20:09So, what the fuck was going on in your house?

01:20:14I do remember that we went back from Malaysia to the UK for an extended trip once, and she

01:20:23was meant to teach me at the time, and it just went appallingly.

01:20:29Sorry, like homeschooling?

01:20:31Yeah, yeah, she was meant to homeschool me.

01:20:35I wouldn't do anything she said, and she just got really irate.

01:20:41I do remember saying to her that I didn't understand why she had so much patience for

01:20:47her pupils when she had none for me.

01:20:49Well, and that's like your dad being nice to your grandkids, but not to you.

01:20:55Because, you know, these types of personality structures are really impressed with, are

01:21:00really interested in impressing strangers, but they don't care about their own kids that

01:21:06much.

01:21:13So, when I say that your dad was deficient in love, and you go on a hike, you go on a

01:21:19hike with your kids so that you can talk to them, right?

01:21:26You know, my daughter and I will go on these, like, two-hour hikes just to chat, because,

01:21:29you know, we're away from the home, and the phone, and the, you know, work, and right,

01:21:33so it's off, right?

01:21:34I mean, just chat.

01:21:36That's what you go on hikes for.

01:21:38I don't go on hikes to make time, right?

01:21:41It's an exercise in conversation, not lung power.

01:21:45I mean, I chat to my daughter when I go on walks with her, and she can't talk yet.

01:21:49Right, right.

01:21:50Now, can you imagine when your daughter gets older that you're just powering on half a

01:21:54kilometre ahead of her?

01:21:55No, I mean, we spend all the time going, look, doggie, at the moment.

01:22:00Yeah, of course.

01:22:01I'm sure I could.

01:22:02Look, I mean, the amount of time that my daughter and I have spent looking for clouds that look

01:22:06like dragons or ducks is insane.

01:22:09I mean, she was fascinated by the slugs this evening.

01:22:12Right, right.

01:22:14So, here's the thing, right?

01:22:16So, what I think is important to get is how alien your parents' mindset is to yours, in

01:22:24that you couldn't imagine doing to your kids what they did to you, or didn't do in terms

01:22:30of neglect.

01:22:32No.

01:22:34So, that's really foreign to your mindset, right?

01:22:37And you certainly couldn't imagine, you know, you have a, sorry, how many kids do you have?

01:22:46Two.

01:22:47Two, right.

01:22:48Boy and a girl?

01:22:49Two girls.

01:22:50Okay, two girls.

01:22:51Well, lucky you, no force-disruptor boys.

01:22:55But you can't imagine them.

01:22:59They'd have loved a boy as well.

01:23:00No, but yeah, I mean, but you can't imagine your kids torturing each other verbally, right?

01:23:07Well, I sort of expected it to happen when I got them, but they adore each other.

01:23:11Right.

01:23:13I mean, the younger one was getting upset when I was sorting out the older one's breakfast,

01:23:23and I found out the solution for that was to put the younger one in a chair facing the

01:23:27older one, and they just sit and grin at each other.

01:23:29Right, right.

01:23:30Yeah, this whole competition stuff, this whole, oh, they resent you spending time with the

01:23:36new baby, and they get mad.

01:23:37That's all nonsense.

01:23:38And that's all lies told by parents who've screwed up their parenting to the point where

01:23:43the siblings are fighting, and they say, well, it's natural.

01:23:47It's sibling rivalry.

01:23:48It's all invented to cover up really dysfunctional parenting.

01:23:57It's really tragic.

01:23:59It's really sad, and it's absolutely not standard operating behavior.

01:24:04So, I mean, just, I mean, evolutionarily speaking, we're a clan-based species, right?

01:24:09We have clans and families, and so if families fought with each other, they could never ally

01:24:13against outsiders.

01:24:14And what are families supposed to do?

01:24:16Well, we have to ally.

01:24:17I mean, just think about genetic preference.

01:24:19Proximate genetics should get our preferred treatment.

01:24:22So, the idea that somehow we have massive outgroup preferences and hate our own genetics

01:24:29is so completely counter to evolution that only an insane person would have come up with

01:24:33that as an idea.

01:24:36Yeah, I mean, that's a good point.

01:24:39So, I know that we've done a deep dive into your history, which I find very helpful and

01:24:45informative.

01:24:49So, let's go back to your husband.

01:24:55So, the amount of hypocrisy that is going on in your family, which we've, I think, hit

01:25:02about six or seven landmines of massive hypocrisy over the course of us talking for a little

01:25:07over an hour.

01:25:09We've hit massive amounts of hypocrisy in your family, right?

01:25:13Yeah.

01:25:13Okay.

01:25:14So, what were you very sensitive in the conversation with your husband about breakfast?

01:25:19What were you most sensitive to?

01:25:29Hypocrisy.

01:25:30That's right.

01:25:31So, if you can't see the hypocrisy in your family of origin, then you're going to be

01:25:36hyper-vigilant for hypocrisy in the present, and you're going to react to that hypocrisy

01:25:42as if it's your family.

01:25:45You know, hypocrisy is the thing that bugs me the most.

01:25:48Well, not really.

01:25:49I hate it.

01:25:50Not really, because you haven't confronted your family of origin about any of this stuff.

01:25:55I did.

01:25:56Well, some of the stuff I knew.

01:25:58I didn't talk to my parents for years.

01:26:01And what did they do when you didn't talk to them for years?

01:26:06They apologised.

01:26:08For what?

01:26:15I guess for sending me to boarding school.

01:26:17That was the bit I was really upset about, that they'd sent me there.

01:26:19I didn't know any of this other stuff.

01:26:22Sorry, you didn't know that your brother was cruel to you, and your parents were in

01:26:25charge of the whole family?

01:26:28Somehow, it never occurred to me.

01:26:31Sorry, there's two thoughts there.

01:26:32Your brother was cruel to you, and your parents were in charge of the whole situation.

01:26:37Which one didn't occur to you, or both?

01:26:42Well, I knew my parents were in charge of the whole situation.

01:26:43I didn't think my brother was particularly cruel.

01:26:47I thought that was just the way siblings are.

01:26:50I thought that was just the way siblings were.

01:26:51I mean, everybody's always told me that's the way siblings are.

01:26:56Most siblings I know are like that.

01:26:58And your father has never acknowledged that his absence was destructive to the family

01:27:03environment?

01:27:04Because his absence meant that your brother couldn't respect rules, couldn't bond, and

01:27:15didn't learn how to restrain his behaviour.

01:27:19No, he's never acknowledged that.

01:27:23Okay.

01:27:24So, they apologised for sending you to boarding school, but they could say, of course, well,

01:27:29there were no good schools in Malaysia, and we brought you back after a year.

01:27:32So, they had reasonable answers for these things, right?

01:27:35I mean, the reasonable answer was that they moved house so many times that year, and they

01:27:41were coming back from Malaysia.

01:27:43So, yeah, that was quite reasonable.

01:27:45Okay.

01:27:46So, you've not talked to them about, and again, if you hadn't really thought about these

01:27:52things.

01:27:52So, the one thing you did talk to them about, they apologised for, but they also had some

01:27:57reasons behind it, right?

01:27:59Yeah.

01:28:00That we could accept to some degree, right?

01:28:06I did talk to them about the spider thing the other day, because I had this feeling

01:28:13it might come up.

01:28:16Oh, you mean in the convo with me?

01:28:18Yes.

01:28:22And they just said that he liked to torment me with it.

01:28:28It didn't seem to have occurred to them that they could have taken it off him, even, or

01:28:35done something else like that.

01:28:36Well, he liked to torment you as a whole, right?

01:28:40Yeah.

01:28:44Okay.

01:28:45And would they say, well, that's just the way he was, or that's just the way brothers

01:28:50are, there's not only so much you can do, or we did comfort you, or stuff like that?

01:28:56No, they just say I was melodramatic, I think, actually.

01:28:59Right.

01:28:59Okay.

01:29:01Your mother, who's almost killed by the pill.

01:29:03Okay.

01:29:05Got it?

01:29:07Yeah.

01:29:09All right.

01:29:10So, they haven't apologised for neglect, they haven't apologised for any of the hittings,

01:29:17they haven't apologised for failing to protect you from your brother, they haven't apologised

01:29:21for the hypocrisy, they haven't apologised for failing to train or instruct or play with

01:29:24you in any meaningful way, they haven't apologised for being largely absent parents, your mother

01:29:29hasn't apologised to you for failing to instruct you, even though she was apparently a great

01:29:33teacher to other kids, none of that.

01:29:35It was just like, well, boarding school, we were kind of in a corner and we took you

01:29:39out after a year.

01:29:41Yeah, pretty much.

01:29:44So, you didn't talk to them for years, and then what changed that?

01:29:52They came home, I guess.

01:29:54I'm sorry?

01:29:56Well, they were abroad, and I just didn't really contact them much when they were abroad.

01:30:02I mean, when I said I didn't speak to them for years, it's not like, I guess I didn't

01:30:08speak to them much for years.

01:30:09Okay, I think technically, what we've just got here is, I've just noticed that that's

01:30:14not true at all.

01:30:17So, I'm just going to say that-

01:30:18Sorry, what's not true at all?

01:30:19I'm spinning.

01:30:20Sorry, I did talk to them.

01:30:23I just didn't talk to them much.

01:30:24I talked to them a few times a year, but I spent Christmas with them every year.

01:30:28Okay, but sorry, did they not contact you?

01:30:38I didn't like to be contacted.

01:30:41Sorry, that doesn't answer my question.

01:30:43Did they contact you more?

01:30:45No.

01:30:47And sorry, you don't have to tell me the exact age for the years that you didn't talk to

01:30:53them.

01:30:54Was it your 20s, 30s?

01:30:5820s.

01:30:5920s, so mid-20s, late-20s?

01:31:05Yeah, mid.

01:31:07And how long ago was that?

01:31:10About 20 years ago.

01:31:11Okay, so 20 years ago, they barely talked to you for a couple of years, right?

01:31:17Now, you have two daughters.

01:31:18Can you imagine not talking to them more than a couple of times a year at any point in the

01:31:24future?

01:31:26No.

01:31:26Right.

01:31:29Right.

01:31:34It is incomprehensible.

01:31:35It's a boomer thing, right?

01:31:37Just like massive selfish void.

01:31:40It's just wild to me.

01:31:43They don't care.

01:31:46They don't care how your life is going in particular.

01:31:49They don't say, is there anything we can do to help?

01:31:51They don't say, any troubles we can listen to you about, any feedback we can give you,

01:31:55any wisdom we can impart, how are things going, what's new?

01:31:58They don't care.

01:32:02Well, I mean, they did give me money for my house deposit.

01:32:06Okay.

01:32:08And just to put another bombshell in the conversation, they did let me stay at their

01:32:18flat when I blew up with my first husband.

01:32:23While they were there?

01:32:25No, they were living abroad.

01:32:27Okay.

01:32:28And they had a flat.

01:32:29Come on.

01:32:31They got a house sitter for free.

01:32:33Oh, dear.

01:32:36And then my mom came back and cried because the place wasn't clean enough.

01:32:41Right.

01:32:42And did they, how many hours did they spend talking with you and helping you process your

01:32:47divorce?

01:32:51I don't remember that.

01:32:53They didn't help you much with that at all, right?

01:32:55I don't remember that happening at all.

01:32:57Okay.

01:32:58So why are they back?

01:33:01They're in your life now, right?

01:33:03Yeah.

01:33:04Why?

01:33:06Well, they came back to their grandkids, as far as I can tell.

01:33:11But it's agony to watch them be nice to your grandkids, isn't it?

01:33:16No.

01:33:17Really?

01:33:18No, it's not.

01:33:19Of course it is.

01:33:21Are you saying that the fact that they kind of ignored you and failed to protect you and

01:33:26failed to connect with you and failed to instruct you and play with you and teach you and enjoy

01:33:30your company, the fact that that was a void for decades in your life and now they're great

01:33:36with your grandkids, that doesn't bother you at all?

01:33:41Yeah, it's almost like I don't connect them with the people that were my parents when

01:33:45I grew up.

01:33:46Yeah.

01:33:47Spoiler, they're the same people.

01:33:49I know.

01:33:50Okay, so what damage is it doing to your consciousness to split yourself up like this?

01:33:57I don't know.

01:33:58It's not good!

01:34:01It's dangerous to split yourself up like this!

01:34:09It's not good for your kids!

01:34:13I thought I forgave them.

01:34:15I knew I was really angry with them up until a certain point, and then I stopped being

01:34:21angry with them.

01:34:22Okay, so outside of how they treat your kids, what are the pluses?

01:34:27And I'm obviously happy to hear, and I don't know whether they should or shouldn't be in

01:34:30your life, I'm just trying to figure out why they are.

01:34:34So what are the pluses of having your parents in your life?

01:34:38Well, they're a very nice company, but not deep company.

01:34:45You can't really have a deep conversation with them.

01:34:48So as long as you pretend nothing happened and there's no past, they're fine to hang

01:34:51out with?

01:34:52Yeah, pretty much.

01:34:54Okay, so as long as you erase the first 20 years of your life, things are fine?

01:34:58Yes, yes, that would be true.

01:35:00Okay, do you think there's a caste to regularly erase the first 20 years of your life?

01:35:05I would suspect so, yes.

01:35:07And the caste is battling with your husband, just so you know.

01:35:10Right.

01:35:12Yeah, I mean, that sort of makes sense, because I honestly thought my dad was perfect, until

01:35:23my husband started saying he wasn't.

01:35:26Well, you never thought your dad was perfect, come on.

01:35:29How long have you been listening to what I said, and how many times have you not been

01:35:32listening to what I said?

01:35:34Oh, a lot.

01:35:35Well, you never thought your dad was perfect. Come on, how long have you been listening

01:35:41to what I do?

01:35:42A month and a half.

01:35:44Oh, okay. Sorry. My apologies then. Okay. So, sorry. I thought I'd been longer. No problem.

01:35:50By the way, how was your experience of the conversation given that you're a little less

01:35:54tutored than some?

01:35:55Oh, it's brilliant. I love it. It's very refreshing.

01:36:00You absolutely did not think your dad was brilliant at all and perfect and wonderful.

01:36:05It is a requirement to spend time with your father that you think that. That's just the

01:36:13requirement. Because if you have... Okay, how does your father handle any foundational

01:36:19criticisms of his character?

01:36:36I don't think I've ever done that.

01:36:39Well, why not? We all need feedback, right? I mean, we all need feedback. I regularly

01:36:46canvass both friends and family saying, hey, how am I doing? Anything I could do better?

01:36:51Anything that's annoying? Anything that I can improve? Particularly my daughter because

01:36:54she's not here by choice and my relationship with her is constantly changing, as you know,

01:36:58being a mom, because your kids are constantly changing, right? My relationship with my wife

01:37:01is more stable because we met in our thirties, right? But my daughter...

01:37:05It's growing from like a Pac-Man blob on an ultrasound machine to like a lovely young

01:37:09woman. And so there's constant changes and you need to adapt, right? And I don't have

01:37:13any model for doing this because my parents were crap on a stick. So you need feedback,

01:37:19right? And she's given me some feedback that's been very helpful. My wife gives me feedback,

01:37:22which is very helpful, you know? And so it's important to get these kinds of criticisms

01:37:26or feedback. So you stay on the right course, particularly when you're doing new stuff,

01:37:31like being a good parent, right?

01:37:32So are you saying that you can't say anything to your father about, yeah, this wasn't great

01:37:40or this could have been improved or this wasn't ideal or... Okay, so in your mind, how would

01:37:45he react, right? If you said to him something like, Dad, I think you were a workaholic and

01:37:54I think that really affected the family negatively, what would he say?

01:37:59He'd be really upset.

01:38:01Okay, but what would he say?

01:38:03What would he say? Probably just that he wanted to provide for my mum and us.

01:38:16Okay, so you pretend to be him, I'll pretend to be you because I just need to get a sense

01:38:20of this personality structure.

01:38:21I'm being him, am I? Okay.

01:38:23Yeah, you're being him. Okay, so Dad, you were gone all the time and we barely saw you

01:38:28and we missed you and I think it was actually pretty negative to the family as a whole and

01:38:33I think it was really, really negative for your son, right? For my brother and I just

01:38:40would like to understand, like, what was the thinking there? Like, you were gone all the

01:38:44time?

01:38:45Yeah, there's no way we'd have this conversation. He'd absolutely shut it down and walk out.

01:38:49So he would just shut it down and walk out? Why?

01:38:55He's never been able to talk about his feelings.

01:38:57I'm not asking him to talk about his feelings. I said, what is the thinking there?

01:39:00Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

01:39:04I said, what's the thinking there? Or what was the thinking there? Like, what was the,

01:39:07like, why? I didn't ask about feelings, I just asked what was the thinking behind working

01:39:11all the time?

01:39:20I guess he doesn't like to be criticised.

01:39:24Well, this is more of a question than a criticism, right?

01:39:31I mean...

01:39:32Like, what was the thinking behind working all the time? Because I think there were some

01:39:36negative aspects to it. That's not a big criticism, that's just a question.

01:39:42Yeah, but the conversation wouldn't happen.

01:39:48So would he literally just get up and walk out of the room?

01:39:51Possibly, yeah.

01:39:53Okay, so then you'd follow him and you'd say, sorry, Dad, I don't know what's happening

01:39:57here. Like, I'm just asking a question and I don't know why you're walking out of the

01:40:01room. What would he say?

01:40:02Probably, I don't want to have this conversation. It was a long time ago.

01:40:23Well, I appreciate that. Now, I mean, you obviously didn't want to work late, but you

01:40:29worked late, right? So you're perfectly capable of doing things that you don't want to do

01:40:33and it's important to me, so I really would appreciate it if you'd sort of come back,

01:40:37you know, sit down, I can make you a cuppa and we'll have the conversation. I mean, I

01:40:40know that you can do things that you don't want to do, right? I mean, I assume you didn't

01:40:44want to work 12 hours a day when we were in Malaysia and you did that. So you can do a

01:40:47bunch of stuff that you don't want to do and I really do, I would really appreciate it

01:40:51as a favour if you could just have this conversation. It would be really important to me. You know,

01:40:55these are things that I'm thinking about now that I'm a mother too and all of that. So,

01:40:59just come back and I know you can handle it. You're a big, strong guy and you've had a big

01:41:03career and all of that. So just come back, pretend I'm your boss or something telling

01:41:07you to work late, which you did all the time. So, you know, just come back and let's have the chat.

01:41:11Yeah, I think that might actually work. I think he'd say that he thought it was the

01:41:18best thing for his family.

01:41:19Well, okay, I appreciate that. But mom said she was lonely and we missed you terribly. So I'm a

01:41:26little confused, right? So I mean, you're a businessman, you've worked in the business

01:41:31world. Your customer is who you ask whether the product's any good, right? You have to ask your

01:41:37customer. You don't just build a bunch of stuff and then deliver it to people and charge them an

01:41:41arm and a leg without ever getting their feedback, right? You've got customer surveys, you've got

01:41:45marketing, you've got salespeople, you've got lots of feedback on what you should build. So as a

01:41:49businessman, you know that you've got to ask, right? You don't just do a bunch of stuff and

01:41:53then say to your boss, hey, I'm really productive because you have to ask your boss, what should I

01:41:57be working on? Is this a good job? So, you know, to get feedback, right? So, you know, in a way,

01:42:03you were delivering a service called fatherhood, right? To your family, and I guess being a

01:42:08husband to your wife. So, you know, just help me understand. It's not a criticism. I'm just

01:42:13genuinely curious. If you say you thought it was best for us, why were we never asked about that?

01:42:20Like, because you could have come to us and you could have said, hey, kids, you have a choice,

01:42:26right? So I can either never be around, and maybe you'll get a few less toys, maybe you won't get

01:42:32new bikes next year or whatever. Maybe the house is a little smaller. So I can be around or we can

01:42:38have a little bit more money. Which would you prefer? Because I remember saying in Malaysia,

01:42:44she was very lonely, right? So, sorry, go ahead. I interrupted you. Sorry.

01:42:48I think he'd probably say that he thought he knew what was best at the time, but

01:42:58that he's sorry that he didn't actually ask us now.

01:43:02No, but why didn't you ask? I mean, again, it's not a big criticism. I mean, because this is the

01:43:07exact principle you use in the business world is to ask for feedback and make sure that you're

01:43:12supplying value, right? So you had a job called fatherhood. And you made all these decisions

01:43:22without ever asking us kids what we wanted. And it doesn't seem really, I mean, did you ask mom?

01:43:26Did you ask? I'm just out of curiosity. I'm not asking you to, you know, unpack all the

01:43:30secrets of your marriage. I'm just kind of curious. Did you ask mom if she wanted more

01:43:36money or more time with you? Because it seems to me that she wanted more time with you because

01:43:41she's talked about how lonely she was. I thought I was meant to be the head of the family and make

01:43:49those decisions. No, but there were decisions for us. You're saying you did it for us, but you

01:43:57didn't ask us. And you certainly, like, did you just say to mom, I don't care that you're lonely.

01:44:04I'm deciding for you that you need more money rather than more time with me and more help with

01:44:08parenting. I mean, I'm just curious because I think that she was a bit more egalitarian than that.

01:44:13I could be wrong. So did you just go to mom and say, I've decided that you want more money,

01:44:19not more time with me. And that's just the way that it is. Is that what happened with mom?

01:44:25I mean, I find that hard to imagine. Of course, I don't know the depths of the marriage, but I'm

01:44:29just curious if, is that what you decided for her? No, we decided together that this would be best

01:44:36for you guys. Sorry. So mom said, I would rather you make more money for the family than be home

01:44:45to help me parent and make sure I didn't feel too lonely. So she said, I want money, not your time

01:44:52and presence as a husband and a father in the household. Is that right? Yes. Okay. That's

01:44:59interesting. Why do you think she wanted money, not you at home? Why do you think she wanted more

01:45:05money and yet you not being at home? Because I mean, I'm married. I'm obviously a wife and

01:45:11I can't imagine saying to my husband, I don't want to see you, but show me the money.

01:45:15I'd rather have money than you at home.

01:45:25We thought it would be better for your future. Right.

01:45:28And did you, why did, but why wouldn't, so mom was fine with that. Mom said,

01:45:35mom said the kids would rather have money than time with their father. Is that right?

01:45:40That was the decision you both made, right? The kids would rather have more money for the

01:45:43household rather than actual time with their father. Yeah. Okay. Why, I mean, but why wouldn't

01:45:50you ask us? Because you were kids. Well, yeah, but we, we, we, we know if we want,

01:46:01we know if we want time with our father, don't we?

01:46:07I didn't realize that at the time. Didn't realize what? That you would know what you wanted.

01:46:14So you don't think that we had any preference as to whether we spent time with you or not? Do you

01:46:18not think that, I mean, ducklings follow their mother for heaven's sakes. I mean,

01:46:21this is common in the animal kingdom to want to spend time with parents. Right.

01:46:25You see, I didn't want you to be able to weigh up the pros and cons. You wouldn't be able to

01:46:31realize what you were giving up in the future to have my presence now.

01:46:37Well, what do you mean in the future? I mean, we're talking when we were very little.

01:46:40I mean, you could have made more money later, I guess. Right. But, but wouldn't,

01:46:46I mean, do you think we wanted money, not you? I guess like, is that, that was your theory that,

01:46:50that we wanted more money in the family rather than spending time with our father?

01:46:55Yeah. Do you, do you, I'm looking back, do you regret that decision at all? Do you think that

01:47:01maybe you worked too, too much? And because, you know, weekdays, we, we barely saw you at all.

01:47:08Right. And, and that, I know that was tough on mom because she did complain about

01:47:11feeling, feeling overwhelmed and stressed and lonely. And did she, she never came to you and

01:47:16said, I think I need you to be home more because I'm basically a single mother.

01:47:21That was just the way it was back then. No, no, this is not what it was. These are all choices.

01:47:26What do you mean? It's not like physics. I'm not, I'm not saying be immune to gravity. Like,

01:47:30these are all choices. Did mom ever come to you and say,

01:47:33I think less money and more time with you at home would be better?

01:47:42Because she certainly complained to us about being lonely.

01:47:52I don't know. Steph, I don't think I have parents at all.

01:47:56I'm sorry? I don't know what he'd say to that. I just have no idea.

01:48:01Well, he's lying. Sorry. I mean, he's like, right. I mean, because if your wife is lonely

01:48:07and is complaining about feeling lonely, then clearly she wants you home more, right?

01:48:11And I'm sure she felt overwhelmed with your brother.

01:48:14Yeah. So she absolutely needed help with parenting. Of course she did.

01:48:19Mothers and fathers are supposed to raise children. That's how we're wired.

01:48:26So if he's, I mean, honestly, I personally think, I don't know, right? It's just a role play.

01:48:32I think he's lying through his teeth. I think he's absolutely lying through his teeth.

01:48:36Because I bet if your father had said, well, a little bit less money, but I'll be home and I will

01:48:43absolutely calm that crazy boy down and make him a lot nicer to his sister. Your mom would have been

01:48:48like, yes, absolutely. Now, if your mother would be like, no, no, no, I want more money,

01:48:52even though my daughter is being tortured. Well, that's insane. Like morally, that's,

01:48:56I don't even know how to express how corrupt that is. That you would take more money

01:49:02at the expense of your daughter being tortured. Because that's, that was the equation, right?

01:49:07If your dad's not home, your brother goes wild, it becomes cruel.

01:49:13Right. And so, so if your mother were to say, oh, absolutely, you go make another 10,000 quid a year

01:49:20or 20,000 quid a year. And the price of that is that my daughter's going to get mentally tortured

01:49:26for 15 years or however long it was. Well, that's, that's sick, right?

01:49:41So I'm sure that your wife said, I'm sorry, I'm sure that his wife,

01:49:45your mother said, I'm overwhelmed. This is not fun for me. I'm lonely. I'm stressed.

01:49:50Right. I mean, she had health issues, right? In your mid teens. Right. I mean,

01:49:57I don't know if that's stress related or whatever, but you know, I mean, she was,

01:50:00she was, it was tough. New country, no help, no in-laws, no friends, no relatives, no

01:50:06support system. And your dad's working all the time. I mean, that's crazy. Of course she said,

01:50:11I'm overwhelmed. Of course she said, this isn't working for me in the way that I want it to.

01:50:15Of course she did. Right. Yeah. And what, and he, he, so, so the idea that you, that,

01:50:23that his wife was like a hundred percent on board with a few extra quid a year at the

01:50:26expense of her mental health and her children's piece of mind is crazy.

01:50:33So I think, I personally, I think he's lying through his teeth in that role play.

01:50:40I used to think it was crazy that my parents never had anything in common,

01:50:44never seemed to do anything together apart from go on holiday.

01:50:50Great. Great. I mean, there's a coldness, right? There's a coldness. I mean, there's a functional

01:51:00British iciness, right? I mean, I grew up in England, as you know, right? Or maybe you don't,

01:51:04right? I know a lot about these, these kinds of family structures, right? These sort of

01:51:08hyper-competent men who just are like workhorses and have hearts of ice and, uh, and then pretend,

01:51:15they pretend it's all for other people. That's a total lie. You, you cannot possibly say I did

01:51:20it all for the kids when it's the exact opposite of what the kids wanted. Like, that's insane.

01:51:26Like, honestly, I, I, I mean, that, that's just, that's an absolute lie. Well, I didn't know.

01:51:30I didn't know that you might prefer my company. I mean, that's literally where he got to. And

01:51:34that's where the role play broke down, where I was saying like, even ducklings prefer to hang

01:51:37out with their parents. Yeah. I went to school in the South of England, very quite wealthy school.

01:51:46All the, it was an all girls' school and all the, all the kids were like on antidepressants.

01:51:51Yeah. Oh no, I went to boarding school. I, I went to boarding school in England,

01:51:55probably in the same neighborhood. So I understand. I understand for sure.

01:52:00Oh, it's for you kids. It's like, don't lie to me. No, it's not. It's for you.

01:52:04I mean, that's the foundational lie. And it's actually very insulting to the children.

01:52:12Right. Because it's, it's the lie to say,

01:52:17well, no, your dad did what he wanted. And then he says it was for you guys, but it's the exact

01:52:23opposite of what you wanted. You and your brother would have been way better having your father home

01:52:28having your father home and being involved in the family. Your mother would have been less

01:52:34stressed. Your, your brother would have been way calmer. You would have been way more protected.

01:52:38You would have developed more social skills rather than learning how to play with beads for 15 years.

01:52:43Right. And so it would have been way better and the money doesn't matter.

01:52:50I mean, it, maybe it would have taken your family income down by 20%.

01:52:55Right. Who cares?

01:53:01You wouldn't have starved.

01:53:04I guess people who care to the people who are going to retire on at the end of it.

01:53:09Well, that's not a great equation either. That's not a great equation either, because you don't

01:53:17save any money by not parenting your children. And do you know why?

01:53:25No. Well, because your parents are going to get old and you guys aren't connected enough

01:53:32to give up what's needed to take care of them. So they're just going to have to pay strangers to do

01:53:37it and they won't save a goddamn penny. In fact, it'll cost them more.

01:53:48Also, also your children don't accumulate as many assets if they keep getting divorced.

01:53:56And because you weren't close to your parents, it's tough for you to negotiate relationships.

01:54:01And because it's tough for you to negotiate relationships, a lot of the wealth you

01:54:05accumulate gets dissipated in divorce, right?

01:54:12So it's absolutely a terrible deal. It doesn't make any money. To take all this money and not

01:54:17connect to your kids means that the family wealth just disintegrates and dissipates and gets wasted

01:54:22on divorce lawyers and old age care homes and nurses and all the stuff that needs to be paid

01:54:27for because your family is not close enough for you guys to want to do it with your parents to

01:54:31take care of them. You then have to pay for an old age home rather than moving in with your kids.

01:54:35You have to pay nurses rather than your kids take care of you. You have to do all of that.

01:54:39It doesn't save you anything. It costs you money. It makes no sense from an economic standpoint.

01:54:46I mean, it makes no sense from a moral standpoint, but the idea that, well,

01:54:50I had to work hard because I need to retire. It's like, no, you just gave up on your kids

01:54:54so you can give money to Jamaican nannies. It's no benefit. It doesn't make you any money.

01:55:01So why did they do it?

01:55:13I mean, sorry, is that rhetorical? I can answer the question, but I wasn't sure if that was

01:55:16rhetorical. No, I'm honestly curious. Well, why does any parent or anyone do anything? Because

01:55:22they prefer to. Because your father felt more effective at work and felt awkward at home.

01:55:30Your father was better as an engineer of inanimate objects than he was connecting with an actual

01:55:36human heart. So he cowardly gravitated to that which was immediately easier to him,

01:55:43no matter the expense to his family. He felt more competent at work than he did at home,

01:55:50so he gravitated towards being at work. He felt more confident

01:55:54making money than he did connecting with his wife and children, and so he just gravitated to that

01:56:00which came easiest to him, rather than that which had actual value in his children's hearts. So he

01:56:07worked for him because his boss gave him his approval. His boss gave him money and approval

01:56:13and status and raises, and his children, well, he had to work a little harder to capture their

01:56:19hearts and to be a good father. Being a good father did not come naturally to him.

01:56:23Being a good worker did, so he just did what was easier and more rewarded in the moment.

01:56:30It's hedonism, pure and simple.

01:56:43He didn't know how to fix his family and he wasn't willing to learn. He wasn't willing

01:56:47to go to therapy. He wasn't willing to read books on parenting. He wasn't willing to do

01:56:51any counseling or work on himself or figure out how to open his heart.

01:56:54He just lazily avoided all of that and gravitated towards being a giant economic working brain

01:57:00of status and job satisfaction. He pleased his boss, not his children.

01:57:06He wanted the approval of his boss, not the love of his children, because that was easier,

01:57:11because self-work is hard, and becoming a good parent, if you were raised not well,

01:57:16it's hard, right? I'm not telling you anything that you don't know, right?

01:57:21So he took the easy path. He took the lazy path.

01:57:23I found being a parent very easy, actually.

01:57:30And your kids are how old?

01:57:32Two and a half and four months.

01:57:34Okay. And this may be the case, right? This may be the case. However, being a parent,

01:57:40being a good parent is also being a happy wife and not having conflict with your husband.

01:57:45Yeah, that's definitely true.

01:57:47And also, you know, your kids, they're very much bonded with you. There's no peer stuff. There's

01:57:53no, you know, what they call the terrible twos may kick in in a bit where there's a lot of

01:57:57resistance and disagreement and so on. And it's where the conflicts occur that the parenting

01:58:01kicks in. And the conflicts may occur, of course, to some degree or another if you're

01:58:05staying home with them, which I assume you are. That's obviously so much the better.

01:58:09So I'm not saying, yeah, so far, because, you know, I get all of that. You know,

01:58:13I did this whole radical peaceful parenting stuff. I started talking about it like 20 years ago.

01:58:18And then my daughter is almost 16. And everyone was like, oh, it's fine. You wait till the

01:58:22teenage years. It's like, yeah, well, the teenage years are here and everything's great.

01:58:25So yeah, all this fear. I'm not trying to be that guy. But so it's coming easier for you,

01:58:31which is great. It did not come easy to your father.

01:58:34No.

01:58:35He didn't know what to do. Your mother didn't know what to do.

01:58:38And rather than learn what to do, they just avoided doing it. Rather than learn how to

01:58:43connect with their children, they just didn't bother to connect with their children. Rather

01:58:47than learning how to truly love and protect their children, they just blamed and insulted

01:58:53their children. And I say this very, I want to be clear about this, like just saying,

01:58:57oh, your brother's got, he's just wild and crazy and stuff, you know, like that's just

01:59:01a huge insult. And it doesn't answer anything.

01:59:04Now, where you have difficulty is getting along with your husband.

01:59:08Yeah.

01:59:09Because to go back to the breakfast thing, right?

01:59:16So he doesn't believe you when you say you're not hungry, because of your history of

01:59:21eating disorders or under eating, as you said, right?

01:59:26Mm-hmm.

01:59:26Okay. So you do have a history of lying about being hungry, right?

01:59:42Yeah.

01:59:43And I don't mean this in any critical way, right? I mean, but I assume that you lied

01:59:48about eating, right?

01:59:54I've already eaten. I ate at school. I did this.

01:59:56Yeah, I must have said things like that. Yeah, I believe so.

02:00:00Yeah, of course, there's that movie, this woman who says, well, I'm on a particular

02:00:04kind of diet. When I'm about to faint, I eat a cube of cheese. I'm just one stomach flew

02:00:09away from my ideal weight. I mean, I'm not saying it was that bad, but you lied about

02:00:15eating.

02:00:15No, that's pretty accurate, actually, yeah.

02:00:18Oh, is it? That was kind of accurate. Okay. So I say this with sympathy, right? I mean,

02:00:22I really do, right? So the anorexic stuff had to do with compulsively lying about eating,

02:00:29right? And so, since you had a history of compulsively lying about eating, your husband

02:00:36would have some skepticism as to whether you're hungry or not, right?

02:00:41Yeah.

02:00:41And I don't think he handled it in the right way, for what it's worth, but nonetheless,

02:00:46you wouldn't have high credibility, right?

02:00:49But also, the eating disorder stuff was a long time ago, right? When you were mid-teens,

02:00:55right?

02:00:57No, it only finished, really. I mean, it went right the way through until I met my husband.

02:01:04Ah, okay. And that was five years ago?

02:01:08Six, yeah.

02:01:09Six years ago, sorry. I was so close. I should never guess these things. I should never guess

02:01:14these things, but I did. I thought, I'll do it. And then I'm like, well, that's close,

02:01:17you know? All right. So for, you know, what, a decade and a half or whatever it was, you had

02:01:26this sort of lying about food, right?

02:01:30Yeah.

02:01:32So then, your husband decides to go on a diet, and he doesn't have a history of a decade and

02:01:40a half worth of eating disorders, right?

02:01:44No, not at all.

02:01:44So he doesn't have a history of compulsively lying about food. So then when he says,

02:01:50I'm not hungry, is it fair, is it fair to compare you compulsively lying for a year

02:01:56and a half about something, and your husband having no history of lying about it?

02:02:01No.

02:02:02So, that's clear, right?

02:02:04Yeah, absolutely.

02:02:05So why is it not clear in the moment?

02:02:07Well, I certainly have never admitted to myself I was compulsively lying about eating for so long.

02:02:16Oh, please, don't even try with me, sister. Don't even try. I can't give you that. I can't

02:02:22give you that.

02:02:23No?

02:02:24Oh, come on. You had an eating disorder, which is a kind of addiction,

02:02:29and are you saying that you had no idea that addicts tend to lie?

02:02:34Well, you addicts tend to lie.

02:02:36But you're addicted to not eating. You're addicted to managing your emotions by

02:02:42controlling your food intake. You're managing anxiety by not eating. You're managing whatever,

02:02:47self-worth for attractiveness or whatever it is, right? But

02:02:51people lie when they're addicted to things, right? You know that.

02:02:54No, that absolutely makes sense. Oh, he used to call me a liar and I got so offended.

02:03:00Well, no, because that's why I said he didn't talk about it in the right way.

02:03:04Just calling you a liar is cruel in my view. I'm not saying he's a cruel guy or anything,

02:03:08right? But I said you compulsively lied. Liar is like a moral judgment. Compulsive lying is,

02:03:15okay, there's a severe deficiency in some sort of self-image or some sort of self-worth,

02:03:20and all you can think of to do is lie. And of course, you were raised by families. You were

02:03:25raised by a family, to me, that was lying a lot, which is all the hypocrisy stuff we talked about.

02:03:31Yeah. I don't think he would have called me a liar, actually. He probably would have said

02:03:35I've been lying in the past. I want to be fair to him, too, right? Yeah, I want to be fair to him,

02:03:38too. Yeah, I do. So, you lied about something compulsively. And compulsively doesn't mean

02:03:45to bad. It just means it was kind of out of your control, right? So, compulsive is not a moral

02:03:51judgment. It's kind of almost like an epileptic attack or an automatic thing like breathing,

02:03:56right? Oh, questions about food? Just lie. Because nobody's going to understand. Nobody's

02:04:00going to sympathize. So, just lie. Yeah, just say you've eaten. Yeah, oh, I ate at school. Oh,

02:04:06I'm full. I already had something, blah, blah, blah. I understand. And so, it's not a moral

02:04:10judgment, but you were falsifying things for a long time. And that's fine, right? So, then

02:04:16your husband says, I'm not hungry. And you go to anger. Yeah, that's not a criticism. I'm just

02:04:27trying to trace the steps, right? Right? Yep, that's true. Okay. So, you go to anger and you're

02:04:34like, oh, well, I guess what you're saying is the truth, even though you accused me of lying

02:04:38about this in the past, right? Yeah. I'm caricaturing a bit. I'm sure it wasn't quite

02:04:44that snarky, but that's sort of the impulse. No, no, that sounds pretty accurate, actually.

02:04:50Right. Okay. It's a little bitchy, right? And it's not a gender thing, because men can be a

02:04:55little bitchy. So can I, actually, by the by. So, none of this is like me looking down from any great

02:05:01height, right? I struggle with this stuff, too, from time to time. So, the question is, why go to

02:05:08anger? And I'm not saying there's anything crazy about it. We don't feel or act without a cause,

02:05:17right? Why go to anger? Because there's a lot of pain in there, right? Pain at having to lie.

02:05:27The under eating is great pain, right? Because it's like, I'm not worth anything if I don't

02:05:32look better or perfect or something like that, right? Yeah. There's a lot of pain there, right?

02:05:38So, if he says, I'm not going to eat this morning because I'm dieting,

02:05:43that brings up pain in you, right? Yeah.

02:05:49So, from pain to anger. Because rather than inviting him in and saying,

02:05:55phew, you know, well, first of all, he could be a bit sensitive about it. I mean,

02:05:59towards you about it, which again, would be very high standards of behavior, but it could be done,

02:06:03right? So, he could say, you know, listen, I'm going on a diet. When did he decide to go on a

02:06:08diet? A few days ago. Okay, a few days ago. So, then he'd say, listen, Miss Under Eater is

02:06:16anonymous. I am going to go on a diet and this is going to be upsetting to you, right? I mean,

02:06:24I know you love me and I know you care about me, but you have a history of an eating disorder

02:06:31for 15 years. So, we need to talk about me going on a diet because that's going to be tough for

02:06:36you, right? Yeah, and I'm breastfeeding at the moment, so I really can't lose any weight.

02:06:41Right, right. Now, did you guys have a conversation about your history of an eating disorder

02:06:47being potentially triggered by your husband dieting? No, it didn't even occur to me.

02:06:54What? Oh, no, sorry, of course. Yeah, because you erased the first 20 years of your life in

02:06:57order to spend time with your parents. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, sorry, I was like,

02:07:01right, okay, got it. So, that's the price of erasing the first 20 years is you're constantly

02:07:06surprised by things that are blindingly obvious, right? Is this why he keeps saying you should

02:07:11know this? Well, yes, because so in order to spend time with your parents, you have to self-erase.

02:07:20Now, self-erasing your history means that you don't understand your triggers

02:07:24and then you react without knowing why. Yeah, that's exactly what happens. Okay, yeah, so that's

02:07:31the price of not being honest with your parents is you have no control of your emotions with your

02:07:36husband. Because like when I point this out, and this is why we all need to talk about these things

02:07:43with other people, myself too, right? So, when I point out, well, you had a 15-year eating disorder,

02:07:49so you'd be triggered by your husband dieting, right? Or could be, right? But that's,

02:07:54it is blindingly obvious, right? Yeah, absolutely. Right, but the reason it's not blindingly obvious

02:08:01is in order to spend time with your family, you have to self-erase. And therefore, you have no

02:08:07past, you're like some odd person who sprang full-grown into life about eight minutes ago.

02:08:12And so, you don't have history, you don't have triggers, and that self-erasure means that you're

02:08:17just going to react in an automatic fashion rather than process things according to self-knowledge,

02:08:22right? Is this why I find it so strange when he brings up things from the past?

02:08:31That's a bit of a vague question. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

02:08:34Right. So, he'll bring up, not particularly in an angry way, arguments that we've had in the past

02:08:45just as sort of statements. And I sort of feel like that's cheating.

02:08:50Sorry, that's what?

02:08:52Like, it's cheating. Like, you shouldn't talk about anything bad that happened in the past.

02:08:57Oh, right. Yeah, I would imagine so. But the problem is if you don't talk about anything

02:09:01bad that's happened in the past, you can't learn from it and you can't avoid it, right?

02:09:06So, if you can imagine, like, you know, like every kid, right? You put your hand on something hot,

02:09:12right? You put your hand in the fire or there's a hot knife on the stove or you put your hand on

02:09:16something hot and you're like, ow, that hurts, right? And the reason it hurts is it's your

02:09:22body's way, obviously, of saying, let's not do that because it's damaging to our body, right?

02:09:28Yes.

02:09:28Now, of course, if you can imagine if somebody did that and then forgot about it every night,

02:09:36every night they went to bed and they woke up with no knowledge of how hot things could damage you,

02:09:40what would happen? Well, you just keep touching hot things, right?

02:09:46So, you just keep getting burnt because you're not accumulating wisdom.

02:09:53And so, if you self-erase your past, you just keep taking the same damage, right?

02:10:03That's why I keep doing the same things over and over and over again.

02:10:06Well, I assume that there's a kind of repetition in these conflicts, right?

02:10:09Well, yeah. One of the major ones we have is I interrupt him when he's talking or

02:10:18don't listen to the end and phase out halfway through.

02:10:23Sorry, what do you mean by don't interrupt? So, you interrupt him when he's talking?

02:10:27Yeah. Yeah, he'll be talking on one subject and I'll interrupt him with something that's

02:10:34completely different. I don't even notice I'm going to do it, really.

02:10:41And is there any pattern to the topics you interrupt?

02:10:55No, not really. I mean, he does talk about personal stuff, but it also can be just his hobbies.

02:11:04As well. It's more that there's something I should be doing and I'm getting really,

02:11:10really anxious that he's still talking.

02:11:16Sorry. So, you feel that there's chores or other things that you should be doing

02:11:20and so you get anxious, right?

02:11:22Yes.

02:11:22So, you want to stop. You end the car. Okay, we can finish the story. I've got dishes to do.

02:11:26I mean, is it something like that?

02:11:28Yeah, pretty much.

02:11:29Okay. So, I've got a whole book, which is free,

02:11:32called Real-Time Relationships, about this kind of stuff.

02:11:34Yeah, I've read it.

02:11:35Oh, okay. So, what's the most honest thing that you can say

02:11:38when your husband is story and you're feeling anxious?

02:11:44I'm feeling anxious.

02:11:45Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm having trouble. I have trouble listening because I'm feeling anxious.

02:11:52Yeah, I tried that. It works really well, actually.

02:11:54Oh, good. Okay. But you have to be aware that you're anxious and you also have to have

02:11:58pattern recognition based on the past. But if you self-erase the past,

02:12:01or if you erase yourself, then you don't have pattern recognition based on the past.

02:12:05Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem. I sometimes don't spot I'm feeling anxious and I'll just

02:12:10walk off halfway through a conversation.

02:12:13Ah, and what did your father do in the role play?

02:12:16He walked off halfway through the conversation.

02:12:18There you go. Right.

02:12:21When it's pointed out, it's bizarre behaviour.

02:12:24Uh, it's not bizarre behaviour if you have a really guilty conscience and if criticism

02:12:31is intolerant to you because you're vain. Does your father suffer from vanity at all?

02:12:41I think he probably, yeah, possibly.

02:12:44Well, I can tell you why I think he does, is that you thought he was perfect.

02:12:50Yes.

02:12:51Now, if my daughter, I can't imagine this, but if my daughter were to come to me and say,

02:12:55Dad, you're perfect. You never do anything ever wrong. You're perfect. Right. What would I say?

02:13:03I'm not perfect.

02:13:04Well, I would say, first of all, I appreciate the compliment, but I mean, I think it's important

02:13:09to be realistic. Right. I have good traits. I have a few bad traits and so on. Now, one of

02:13:14the reasons why, like what would be the main reason why I would want to correct my daughter

02:13:20if she came to me at the age of 13 or 14 or whatever and said, Dad, you're perfect. Why

02:13:26would I want to correct her on that so much? I mean, other than the fact that it's not true,

02:13:30I'm not perfect, but why would it be particularly important for my daughter to not think her father

02:13:36is perfect?

02:13:38Because you don't want her to expect other men in her life to be perfect.

02:13:45Yeah, because then she'll just be a nag to her husband.

02:13:51She'll constantly criticize her husband.

02:13:54Because she'll be comparing him to a fantasy man who doesn't exist, which is called perfect me.

02:14:01Yeah.

02:14:02So I would never, ever want her to think I was perfect because I want her to have a happy

02:14:09marriage. Now, if your father lets you continue to think that he's perfect, even though that

02:14:15comes at the expense of your marriage, then he's getting, that's vain, that's vanity, right?

02:14:19Because he'd rather think that he's perfect than you have a happy marriage or a happier marriage.

02:14:24So I'm not saying you don't have a happy marriage at all, right? But a happier marriage.

02:14:28Yeah.

02:14:30So that's what I mean by vanity, right?

02:14:34Like, if my daughter comes to me and says, Dad, you're perfect. Yes, I am. Yes, you're absolutely

02:14:39right, darling. I'm perfect. No man will ever, come on, that's wretched and vaguely gay, but

02:14:44it's, I don't know why that accent came in. I played a little bit of Baldur's Gate.

02:14:47It was a lovely voice.

02:14:48It was a lovely voice while I went to boarding school. What can I tell you? Right. So, but it

02:14:53would be pretty toxic for me to encourage that in my daughter or even countenance that in my daughter.

02:14:58And it also would mean that my daughter had never seen me self-criticise.

02:15:03Right. Has your dad ever said, Ooh, you know, I really,

02:15:06Ooh, I could have done that a bit better. Oh, that wasn't quite right.

02:15:10Not that I remember, no.

02:15:12Okay. So he's, then this is why you kind of criticise him because he's too vain.

02:15:16And he's incredibly competitive as well, or he used to be.

02:15:19Yeah. Well, he wasn't competitive with being a good parent.

02:15:24He wasn't competitive with improving his parenting.

02:15:28No.

02:15:29I've no problem with competitiveness. Just make sure it's in morality, not just money grubbing.

02:15:35Yeah.

02:15:36So, last thing is the kitchen. The kitchen of doom, right? Things are messy.

02:15:44Things are messy.

02:15:46Yeah.

02:15:47And so when you say, you said your husband interprets this as a criticism, right?

02:15:53No, I interpret this as a criticism.

02:15:56So, sorry, your husband says the kitchen is messy and you interpret this as a criticism, right?

02:16:02Yes.

02:16:02Okay. How do you know you're not correct?

02:16:08Because when I ask him, he says it's not a criticism.

02:16:12Well, again, I'm not trying to drive any wedges between you and your husband,

02:16:16but I'm a sceptic, right? And that doesn't mean that I'm right,

02:16:20but maybe you are accurately perceiving his tone, right?

02:16:25So, you're the stay-at-home mom, is that right?

02:16:30No, I am considering that quite heavily after looking at your work though.

02:16:35Oh, good. Okay. So who takes care of your kids during the day? You're working, is that right?

02:16:38I'm on maternity leave at the moment.

02:16:40Oh, okay. Okay. So you're home and I would beg and implore you to stay home. Honestly,

02:16:45it's a bad deal to go back to work. It's a very bad deal. And really, it's up to your kids. I mean,

02:16:51when you become a parent, you just have to do what's best for your kids, right?

02:16:54Yeah.

02:16:55So, right now, you're the stay-at-home mom?

02:17:02Yeah.

02:17:03Okay. And over the last two and a half years,

02:17:07and since your first daughter was born, have you been the stay-at-home

02:17:11mom for the most part of that time?

02:17:15No, probably for about a quarter of that time.

02:17:19About a quarter of that time. And who's been taking care of your kids when you were at work?

02:17:25My parents and a nursery.

02:17:30Right. Right. Well, that explains the value that they have in your life, right?

02:17:37Yes.

02:17:38Because if they weren't around, you would have had to stay home, right?

02:17:42Yeah.

02:17:43And what's the reason for going back to work? Or what was the reason for going back to work?

02:17:50To pay for the house.

02:17:52Well, you can get a smaller house, you can, right? I mean, there's costs to going back to work,

02:17:59and then you have to pay for daycare as well. So, I mean, have you done the math? Like,

02:18:02what's your actual take-home on an hourly basis after all of the costs and expenses are rolled in?

02:18:07I'm on six figures.

02:18:10Oh, okay. And have you been on six figures for a while?

02:18:14Yeah.

02:18:15Oh, fantastic. So, you should have some good savings that allow you to be a stay-at-home mom.

02:18:19No, because we only just bought the house.

02:18:23Well, but you've been on six figures for how long?

02:18:28Oh, probably about... Actually, when I say been on six figures for a while, that's not true. Before

02:18:35I met my husband, I was on under half what I'm making now. So, that was only six years ago.

02:18:42Okay. So, but just, you know,

02:18:44So, that was only six years ago.

02:18:46Okay. So, but just, you know, six figures is pounds, right? So, that's

02:18:51infinity Canadian dollars or something like that. Okay. So, if you'd bought a smaller house,

02:18:58you'd be able to stay home, right?

02:19:01Yeah.

02:19:02Okay. So, is it worth having a... I mean, do your kids want a bigger house,

02:19:06or do they want a stay-at-home mom?

02:19:08I would suspect they probably would want a stay-at-home mom if they're anything like me.

02:19:13Of course they would. I mean, we evolved in caves, for heaven's sakes. Go back and

02:19:18look at what the blue Britain Picts lived in, and mud huts and stuff. Like,

02:19:22they'd rather have you home than another bedroom or two in the house.

02:19:28Right?

02:19:30Yeah.

02:19:31Because you're their mother. And strangers can't do the job. Even grandparents can't

02:19:35do the job, particularly if their parenting style is going to be quite different from yours.

02:19:43Right? In other words, they don't have the experience of how to play with children and

02:19:46interact with children in the way that you do.

02:19:52No.

02:19:55So,

02:19:55when your husband comes home, or your husband says,

02:20:04the kitchen is a mess, what is he trying to communicate to you? And I don't mean, like,

02:20:09what's your paranoia or your fantasy? Like, why do you think he's saying that?

02:20:21He...

02:20:25Well, I mean, I would really like this to be tidy.

02:20:34Okay, I would really like this to be tidy. So, why is he saying it, rather than tidying up?

02:20:44I mean, if he was home alone, let's say that you and your daughters, for some reason,

02:20:47were away for a couple of weeks, and he was home alone, do you think he'd just sit there

02:20:52and look at a messy kitchen and say, boy, that kitchen is a really messy kitchen?

02:20:58He might. He does talk to himself.

02:21:00Okay, but then what would he do?

02:21:07Either swear at it a lot or tidy it up. I mean, I think that's what he did

02:21:12actually do. He said that, and then he went and tidied it up afterwards.

02:21:16Okay, so if he comes home and he says, that kitchen is really messy,

02:21:19then he'd go and tidy it up, right? Okay, so is he saying the kitchen is really messy

02:21:27because he is chuffed at you not tidying it up, or it not being tidy already?

02:21:33No, because I don't really do... I mean, he's cooking all the meals at the moment.

02:21:37He works from home, so I don't really do much in the kitchen.

02:21:42Okay, so it's not a criticism of you that the kitchen is messy,

02:21:45but rather a notation for him to tidy it up, is that right?

02:21:49I would think so, yeah. He does tend to share all these things, and I'm not used to that.

02:21:54His dream of consciousness husband, yeah. It's funny because for women it's like,

02:21:59he's not emotionally available, and for some women it's like, he's way too emotionally available.

02:22:07I could stand a life without constant subtitles, but that's just not the way it is.

02:22:11All right, okay, so then if you get tense or frustrated or upset because he's making a comment

02:22:21about how he's messed up the kitchen, and I assume that to some degree it's his job to

02:22:25clean it up, right? Okay, so there's something that goes on to you though,

02:22:31which is different from what he's saying, right? So what is it that you're hearing that is upsetting

02:22:37to you? You're messy. Right, and of course we know where that comes from, right? My mom.

02:22:48Good old mom, right? Now are you aware that when your husband says,

02:22:53this kitchen's a mess, are you aware that that brings up all kinds of mom scars with you?

02:22:59Yes. Okay, so then is your husband aware that him saying that is a triggering event for you?

02:23:11No, I wouldn't have thought so. Now, why wouldn't he know that? Because I assume he

02:23:15knows that your mom is a bit of a neat freak, right? Yes.

02:23:23And that's annoying. Do you know why your mom being a neat freak is annoying to you?

02:23:29Or was? No.

02:23:33So the reason why neat freaks are annoying is because they're saying I want the house to look

02:23:39perfect, but they don't say it's really important that my husband is home to help me raise the

02:23:43children. So it's all about appearance. The house has to look nice and tidy, but I don't care who's

02:23:51unhappy in it. Right. It's a little psycho in my view. I'm not saying your mom's a psycho,

02:23:57I'm just saying it's a little psycho to say the only thing that matters is whether the plates are

02:24:02put away in the right place. It doesn't matter whether my children are actually happy in the

02:24:07household. Yes. It doesn't matter whether I play with them. It doesn't matter whether I teach them

02:24:13or instruct them or take delight in their company or enjoy spending time with them or seek them out.

02:24:17It doesn't matter. That doesn't matter at all. What matters is, is the dishwasher stacked in the

02:24:24efficient and correct manner. It's a complete set of insane priorities.

02:24:34Yes. Yes. I don't think I'd have chosen that quite the same way.

02:24:41But that's what's so annoying about it. It's like, well, you care more about the location

02:24:47of the cutlery than you do about the happiness of your children. That's crazy.

02:24:54Yeah. Right. As a mother, she should care more about her children than the house, right?

02:25:04Yes. Now, that of course doesn't mean that everyone lives in a pigsty because children

02:25:07can't be happy if they're constantly getting eye infections from the cutlery. But it does mean that

02:25:14parents should focus more on the happiness of their children

02:25:18than the precision of the household tidiness, right?

02:25:24Now, of course, you couldn't say to your mother at any point, I assume,

02:25:28Mom, it doesn't matter how tidy the house is. It matters how happy your children are,

02:25:32and we're not happy. I'm hiding in my room. Your son is kind of on a rampage. He's incredibly cruel.

02:25:38He told me that I was adopted. He frightens me with spiders. He's just mean and cruel all over

02:25:42the place. Why don't you deal with that, Mom, rather than where my plate is and whether I've

02:25:48got a coaster under my cup? No, that never came up. Well, it couldn't, right? Because that would

02:25:57completely short-circuit your mom's brain, wouldn't it? Yes. Because your mom, like your dad,

02:26:03focused on fairly inconsequential material things rather than the happiness

02:26:07and closeness of the entire family unit. Yes. Your mom liked to tidy things because the family

02:26:16was a mess, and she didn't want to deal with the mess of the family, so she dealt with the

02:26:23mess of the household, which only made the mess of the family even worse, because you kept seeing

02:26:30your mother caring about inconsequential things rather than your happiness, which makes you

02:26:36resentful, and in my view, rightly so. Yeah. So, when your husband says,

02:26:47this is a mess, he knows your history, and so, you know, it's not like our history should

02:26:57dominate and dictate everything that everyone does around us, but it is the case that we need

02:27:02to be sensitive about our partner's history, right? So, he knows that you had a materially

02:27:12controlling mother with entirely deranged priorities. You know, it's like the…

02:27:21It's possible I haven't told him as much about that as I probably should have done.

02:27:25Well, I think it's… but that's a self-knowledge thing too, right? Because if you didn't have to

02:27:29erase yourself to be around your parents, you'd say, oh, well, yeah, you know, I mean,

02:27:34yeah, the place is a mess, and, you know, I get a little triggered by this, it's not your fault,

02:27:37but, you know, I get a little triggered by this because my mom spent my entire childhood nagging

02:27:41me about stupid things without protecting me from my crazy brother or, you know, absent father or

02:27:48like bringing him home or anything like that, right? So, my mom had all the wrong priorities,

02:27:53right? You know, like I've seen parents more upset about a tiny ding in the car than a truly

02:28:02traumatized and wounded child. I mean, it's crazy, crazy stuff. It's this weird material

02:28:06fetish for things to look perfect rather than for people to be happy. I don't get it really,

02:28:11but I know that it's sort of very common. So, because you don't have the past as much as you

02:28:20could because you have to self-erase to be around your parents, then you don't notice the triggers

02:28:26as much, you haven't talked to your husband about the triggers as much, and so he doesn't know enough

02:28:31to help you not be triggered. Yeah. But if the past becomes real, then it's like, oh,

02:28:41yeah, every time you put your hand there, you get burned, so I will stop putting my hand there,

02:28:45right? Because, I mean, your husband doesn't want to trigger you. Of course not right now.

02:28:48Of course, we don't want to sit there and say, well, this upsets me, therefore you can never do

02:28:52this, and you don't want your past to then end up dominating and he can't do anything, or, you know.

02:28:56But, you know, obviously, if there's things that you're sensitive to, which is the case for all of

02:29:00us, right? There are things that you're sensitive to, then your husband should do his best to try

02:29:05and avoid that, right? And, you know, you need to be cognizant of that as well. He's been pretty

02:29:11good when I've actually told him things have upset me. I just sort of expect him to know things upset

02:29:16me without telling him. Well, that's because you grew up in a family which doesn't communicate

02:29:20about thoughts and feelings, and so it goes against the grain for you to talk about thoughts and

02:29:25feelings, right? But then what happens is you end up imagining that somehow he can inhabit your brain

02:29:31and know things that are even invisible to you. Well, that's not reasonable, right?

02:29:35No.

02:29:36It's not reasonable. We're men. We need it skywritten. We need it tattooed on your cleavage

02:29:41or something like that. I don't know what we need, but we need something that's pretty clear, right?

02:29:45I thought you didn't like tattoos.

02:29:48Yes, maybe henna or something like that. But yeah, see that? See, you're good at hypocrisy,

02:29:54right? You're good at catching hypocrisy. That's a superpower, man. That's good stuff.

02:29:59Man, you're like my daughter, but better. So, no, that's great. See, that was instantaneous. I could

02:30:04see why you get the six figures, man. Don't tell me your job, but I bet you it has something to

02:30:08do with detecting inconsistencies. All right.

02:30:11I can tell you my job. There's thousands of people who do it. It's software engineer.

02:30:15Oh, okay. So, that's all about logical consistency, right? Because bugs are inconsistencies. Okay.

02:30:20All right. So, listen, we've been talking for a good old time. Does that give you a place

02:30:24to start from? I really appreciate this because I always find it fascinating to

02:30:29root around in the cellars of people's lives. But has this been relatively helpful for you?

02:30:33Oh, it's been brilliant. It's great. I just didn't see any of this. It's so unusual to

02:30:39have a conversation with someone where they bring out stuff you haven't seen before.

02:30:44Well, you're going to see it all now, man, because once we've unleashed that software

02:30:47engineer consistency brain on your family, no stone will be left unturned. None shall pass.

02:30:53All right. Well, listen, will you keep me posted about how it's going?

02:30:57Yeah, I definitely will.

02:30:58Fantastic. Well, I appreciate that and do say hi to your husband for me. I'm glad that he's a

02:31:01listener and I'm sure he'll... He's not a listener, actually.

02:31:06Really? Oh, I thought he was.

02:31:08You come up in conversations quite often at the moment.

02:31:11Excellent. Well, you know, I'm sure he'll send me an angry email. No, I'm kidding,

02:31:14right, because I'm on his side, too. So, all right, well, keep me posted about how it's going.

02:31:17I really do appreciate the conversation today, all right?

02:31:20Thank you very much.

02:31:21All the best. Bye.

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