Death by Distracted Dad! Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

In this heartfelt conversation, we delve into the caller's challenging upbringing shaped by divorce, neglect, and emotional struggles. The host provides nuanced insights on neglect as a form of abuse, while personal anecdotes and discussions on self-confidence and coping mechanisms add depth to the dialogue. The caller bravely shares struggles with identity and self-worth, leading to introspection and growth with the host's compassionate guidance. The conversation emphasizes the importance of positive social connections and personal responsibility in the caller's journey towards self-improvement and well-being.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00 Hello Stefan, I'm a fairly new local subscriber and new to your work in general.

00:00:03 As of late I've become more aware of just how much my poor upbringing has affected me.

00:00:07 My parents divorced when I was 13 years old and I am now 23. I am the youngest child of three and

00:00:12 throughout my childhood I was neglected, verbally abused, and most of the time not taken seriously.

00:00:16 My older brother and I didn't have an actual relationship until a few years ago due to our

00:00:21 poor parenting. We weren't very close in childhood in our teen years and would often not get along

00:00:26 as kids. As a result of my parents' abuse and neglect I've been struggling with my identity,

00:00:31 social connections, confrontation, and various coping mechanisms that I built up for myself

00:00:35 when I was a child. From the ages of 13 to 21 I struggled heavily with anxiety and began to use

00:00:42 weed, alcohol, nicotine, food, pornography, humor, nihilism, and sex as coping mechanisms.

00:00:50 And for a long time I would create fantasies in my mind as if I were someone else.

00:00:54 And if I am remembering correctly that was one of my first coping mechanisms.

00:00:57 For around two years now I've been struggling with a so far undiagnosed chronic bladder issue

00:01:02 and I'm also wondering if the stress from my adolescence has anything to do with my condition.

00:01:06 I only began to fully try and better myself in 2022 but I've found there are still so many

00:01:12 stumbling blocks in front of me. I feel exhausted from the trauma and the result of it as well as

00:01:16 my poor health. I feel that I'm constantly failing to be the person I want to/need to be

00:01:21 and instead I am being the person my parents set me up to be.

00:01:23 Yeah, that's a tough tale and I sympathize. Do you want to start with childhood stuff?

00:01:33 Um, yeah, I could start from there for sure.

00:01:39 So I think, you know, my memory is a bit shoddy and I apologize in advance for this.

00:01:48 There's a lot of stuff I'm sure that I've blocked out intentionally and some things that are just

00:01:52 maybe unrecoverable because of how many years I was using weed but

00:01:57 I'll try my best here to recollect things.

00:02:00 I remember when I was younger one of the things that constantly comes up in my mind is just how

00:02:08 my parents just weren't really there. It was a constant,

00:02:18 you know, it was a constant, like, it felt like they were...

00:02:23 Sorry, I'm just getting a lot of creaking and clicking and banging and sounds.

00:02:29 Oh, I'm sorry.

00:02:31 I don't know if you've got a creaky chair or something like that but it's a little distracting.

00:02:34 Yeah, I think that was my chair there.

00:02:39 No, no worries. Just if you could, I mean, if you need to move to a comfier chair or something,

00:02:42 just if you can keep the background noise to a minimum, I would appreciate it.

00:02:46 Absolutely.

00:02:47 So I just found that my parents never showed interest in any curiosity in anything that I

00:02:58 wanted to do and anytime that there was anything going on, we were told to take it outside or we

00:03:07 would just get my siblings and I, specifically my older brother and I, would be just punished

00:03:15 for trying to have fun or we were... I was always deemed as hyper and I talked too much.

00:03:21 Things like that where I was just trying to connect to my parents but

00:03:26 they pushed me away by saying I was hyper, I was too talkative.

00:03:31 There were nicknames they would give me because I would talk so much.

00:03:36 And it was very frustrating for me because I didn't really understand

00:03:42 what any of that was about. My father never showed interest in any of my hobbies.

00:03:48 Mine are my brother's hobbies. He was big into fishing, but he took us fishing maybe a handful

00:03:56 of times. He never taught us to fish. He never taught us any life skills aside from

00:04:00 maybe manners. That was probably the one thing that stuck with me from childhood.

00:04:08 Yeah, manners is mostly just bullying kids and being afraid of being judged negatively

00:04:15 on the part of the parents. It usually doesn't have anything to do with caring

00:04:18 about the kids, just caring about appearances and usually anyway.

00:04:20 Right, no, you're spot on about that too because it was like, before we would go out,

00:04:29 maybe we're going to family, friends' places or something, it was like the drill sergeant,

00:04:36 don't act up, blah, blah, blah, sit up straight, say thank you, say yes, please.

00:04:41 And whenever they would get feedback about our manners, which they would often, if I went to a

00:04:48 friend's house or something, the parents would be like, "Oh, he's so polite." It's because he was

00:04:53 ingraining that in my mind that I had to be overly polite about everything.

00:04:58 Oh yeah, no, I find the so polite kids kind of terrifying because it's like,

00:05:04 why? What's the matter? What's the matter with the kid is so polite? That's not right.

00:05:07 Yeah, that was really tough. I thought about it and I don't think anything except manners,

00:05:18 I don't think I was taught. My father didn't teach me to shave, he didn't teach me how to

00:05:24 change a tire. It was just simple, surface level stuff. I wasn't really taught and I wasn't...

00:05:34 I was just... He was like a TV dad pretty much. My mom wasn't really...

00:05:38 Was pretty much dissociated for as long as I can remember.

00:05:43 Oh, TV dad, you mean like you watch TV a lot?

00:05:45 Yeah, he'd get home from work and he'd be in front of the TV. He would eat dinner back in

00:05:52 front of the TV. Can't talk to him while he's watching TV. He's watching hockey or football

00:05:58 or whatever and I'm the one bugging him because I want to talk to him or maybe my brother and I are

00:06:04 fooling around in the living room and he's getting mad at us because we're making too much noise and

00:06:11 we're too hyper and a lot of stuff like that. From both of my parents, there was a constant threat

00:06:17 of... They would say consequences, which was essentially just taking things away from us if

00:06:21 we acted up. So, "Oh, don't do that. You're going to have consequences." It was a lot of...

00:06:26 There was never any physical abuse, but it was always heavy, heavy verbal abuse, yelling,

00:06:31 giving us the silent treatment, very, very childish stuff like that.

00:06:35 So, we knew we did something wrong. They wouldn't talk to us. They'd be very short with us after

00:06:41 they'd finished yelling at us. And my dad would threaten violence sometimes for sure as well.

00:06:47 I was very scared of him and I always was... It was just very terrifying for me whenever I had

00:06:55 done something wrong because I could just hear his voice in my head. I could imagine his face.

00:07:00 I could imagine him standing over me, the things that he would say. That was always

00:07:07 really difficult for me. And so, keeping up with the manners, that's why.

00:07:13 Yeah. The manners people, it's always like, it's rude to ignore your kids and just sit in front of

00:07:19 the TV like a freaking zucchini, right? That's pretty rude. But it's all about others and looking

00:07:25 good. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's when it seemed like it was... They cared very much about the

00:07:33 image. But as soon as we got home, it was just... It was chaotic. It was like every man for himself.

00:07:40 My parents, before they got divorced, we had a nice house. They both worked. They did well enough

00:07:48 that they were able to get us things. We had a nice house. It was a nice neighborhood. But I mean,

00:07:54 the way they treated us and the way that I was raised, I would have traded all that in just

00:07:59 to have had loving parents, essentially. What do you mean, every man for himself?

00:08:06 I'm not quite sure I follow that phrase. Yeah, I guess that's not very specific. Well,

00:08:15 they just left us to our own devices. There was never any instruction in anything. At least,

00:08:20 I think it was more so for me since I'm the youngest child of three. And I don't think...

00:08:26 We can get into this more as well. But I was an accident, essentially. I don't think I was

00:08:33 meant to be born. And so I think by the time I was growing up, my parents had both

00:08:40 fully lost interest in parenting in general. And so I tried to be close with my brother because

00:08:46 I wasn't very... Sorry, fully. I'm not sure what you mean when you say fully lost interest in

00:08:50 parenting. What do you mean? It just seemed like they had given up by the time I was around. It

00:08:58 seemed like my brother and sister had more instruction in things than I. Even then,

00:09:02 they didn't have a lot of guidance. But when it came to me, it just seemed like I was

00:09:09 left out and everything. I didn't have...

00:09:13 Okay. And the reason I'm questioning this is that's an interpretation, right? They'd just

00:09:19 kind of given up. They'd worn out. Yeah, that's true.

00:09:21 I mean, there's lots of other reasons that could be the case. I'm just

00:09:26 curious why you would settle on that one because that's the nicest one.

00:09:29 Right.

00:09:31 You know, "Well, Dad just ran a marathon. He doesn't want to come and play tag with me because

00:09:36 he's just tired." That's the nicest possible... Maybe it's true. I don't know. We're just talking

00:09:43 for the first time, but I'm always a little suspicious when people have the nicest possible

00:09:47 interpretation for pretty crappy parenting. Right, yeah, you're right.

00:09:53 Maybe they would just stop. Maybe they would do jerks. Maybe they would just...

00:09:57 They have kids and it turns out that it's easier to watch TV than to deal with your kids because

00:10:04 you're lazy. It could be any number of things, but you give this tiredness thing like that's just

00:10:12 the answer. Maybe, I don't know. I don't even know what it means to be tired, right? I mean,

00:10:16 did your dad go to work when he was tired?

00:10:19 Yeah.

00:10:19 Of course he did.

00:10:20 Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

00:10:23 So, did he expect you to be... Did you get to say, "Well, I'm kind of tired, Dad, so I don't

00:10:30 think I'm going to be able to be polite"?

00:10:35 No, absolutely not.

00:10:36 So, your dad did not accept tiredness as an excuse, did he?

00:10:41 Not that I could think of, no.

00:10:46 No, of course not. You didn't get to say that, right?

00:10:48 So, if your dad doesn't accept tiredness as an excuse for you,

00:10:54 why would you give tiredness as an excuse to your dad?

00:11:00 Right, yeah, I never... Yeah, I was just going with that narrative without really thinking about it.

00:11:06 You know, I mean, I don't think it's fair to say, "Look, there's times when you're tired, right?

00:11:10 And your quality of... I mean, I'm a parent, right? So, there's times where you're tired,

00:11:16 and yeah, the quality of your parenting is not going to be quite as good. Okay, that's fine."

00:11:19 But, you know, at least then don't be the person who's like, "Well, kid, you're not allowed to be

00:11:24 tired. You don't get tiredness as an excuse. I, as a grown-ass adult, chose to have children.

00:11:28 Well, I get this excuse called tiredness, but man, you don't get this excuse."

00:11:32 Right.

00:11:35 And he didn't give you that excuse, did he?

00:11:37 "Oh, son, you're tired. Oh, never mind. Yeah, you don't have to be polite."

00:11:42 Yeah, there's never any leeway.

00:11:48 There's no excuse for rudeness. Okay, all right. Then there's no excuse for

00:11:52 crappy dissociated parenting then, right? Isn't that the deal?

00:11:56 I mean, parenting's slightly more important than minor politeness when you're a kid, right?

00:12:00 Yeah, definitely.

00:12:05 So, yeah, that was sort of... Sorry to be jumping in there, but I was just like,

00:12:08 "Wait a minute, why is tiredness now a thing?"

00:12:12 That's very true. Yeah. The best way I could describe my father is that he...

00:12:24 I don't know how else to explain. It was like he was always cranky. There was always something

00:12:28 wrong. He couldn't be happy with anything. And there were times where he was happy and where

00:12:35 he was present with us emotionally and mentally, but that was not often. And so, it was mostly

00:12:44 what I think of him in my childhood. It was just him telling us that we were too hyper,

00:12:52 that I was too talkative, that we needed to calm down. Just him reprimanding me for things that I

00:12:58 didn't really understand why I was in trouble.

00:13:02 And I just wanted attention from my parents. And maybe I was talkative, but I mean,

00:13:07 I wanted to talk to my parents, but I never really felt that I had that. I never really felt that I

00:13:14 could talk to them. I never really felt that... I don't think I ever really spent time with...

00:13:18 quality time with them. It was maybe on holidays or something like that. But I felt like I was

00:13:24 being blamed for wanting to have parents. That's just how it felt. And so, those are the memories

00:13:33 I have of my father. Watching TV and shushing me because I wanted to talk to him or because

00:13:39 I was asking him questions about things that I had seen. But it was like, "Oh, go outside."

00:13:45 Yeah. You wanted to be parented.

00:13:46 Play with your brother, whatever. Yeah, absolutely.

00:13:51 You wanted to be parented and you wanted to...

00:13:52 That was really hard.

00:13:53 Yeah, you wanted to be parented and you wanted to believe that the guy who decided to give birth to

00:14:00 you might actually enjoy your company.

00:14:01 Exactly, yeah.

00:14:05 Now, listen, I say this with all sympathy. I really do. But you're like a terrible liar.

00:14:15 I'm sorry to be rude. I really am.

00:14:17 In what way? No, I'm interested.

00:14:21 I'm sorry?

00:14:21 I'm interested to hear.

00:14:22 And I don't say this with any negativity at all. I'm sure you believe the lies and so on. But

00:14:27 yeah, it's pretty bad. Okay, so you're trying to sell me the story like, "Well,

00:14:34 dad, he's just always grumpy, right?"

00:14:36 Yeah, I don't mean to make excuses for them. I just mean that's like...

00:14:44 No, no, but it's not true.

00:14:46 Essentially, that's what it seemed like to me.

00:14:48 No, but it's not true.

00:14:48 Okay.

00:14:51 And that's what I mean when I say, "God love you for a liar." But this is not even close to true.

00:14:56 And how do I know that?

00:14:57 Okay.

00:14:58 How do I know that?

00:15:00 Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm interested to hear.

00:15:09 Well, wasn't he really big on politeness?

00:15:14 Oh, yes. Yeah.

00:15:18 Right. So was he rude when you were out there with other people in company or out about town

00:15:22 or where he could be judged or were you socializing? Was he just rude all the time?

00:15:27 No, never.

00:15:31 Oh, look at that. Look at that. He's got tons of energy. He's not rude at all. He's not tired.

00:15:35 He's not grumpy. He's not grouchy. He's not anything, right? He's perfectly civilized.

00:15:40 Right.

00:15:42 So, you know, I appreciate the attempt to snow job me. Like, I really do. Like,

00:15:47 I think that's impressive. It's actually impressive that you would think I'd fall for

00:15:50 that. Like, that's really, that's kind of cool. Like, good for you, man. Like, the optimism

00:15:56 that you have in that story is like so impressive. I can't even tell you. Like, I don't, you know,

00:16:03 like, good for you, man. I think I've now met your father.

00:16:06 Yeah. Yeah, no, that's, wow, that's like-

00:16:11 I say this with all affection and no, like, it's fine. It's, but you know, you see what I'm coming

00:16:15 from, right?

00:16:16 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's, yeah, that's mind-blowing to me. It

00:16:22 really is.

00:16:22 Yeah. Guy had tons of energy for strangers, right? I bet you he was great with waiters and,

00:16:29 you know, or whoever, right?

00:16:30 His own children.

00:16:31 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Strangers.

00:16:32 Yeah, absolutely.

00:16:33 We're all, we're all-

00:16:34 Had all the charisma with people like that.

00:16:36 Sorry?

00:16:38 Yeah, definitely.

00:16:39 Yeah, I was just saying, you had all the charisma with people like waiters and out in public.

00:16:44 Oh, yeah, yeah. Best guy ever, right?

00:16:46 You know, all that.

00:16:47 You're probably like, "Man, your dad's great!"

00:16:49 Yeah, absolutely.

00:16:50 Yeah, yeah. Now, do you know what they call people who are, do you know what they call

00:16:56 people who are really kind of rude to their own family members, but really nice to strangers and

00:17:00 really charming with strangers?

00:17:01 Uh, no, I don't.

00:17:06 Well, I mean, I don't know for sure, but it seems like sociopathy to me.

00:17:10 Because it's a superficial charm, right? That's one of the characteristics of a sociopath.

00:17:15 And I'm not calling him a sociopath, I'm just saying that that's, you know,

00:17:18 one of the minor characteristics, right?

00:17:20 Yeah, definitely.

00:17:24 But yeah, so then the other question is, well, why is he giving you this indication that he's

00:17:33 so tired and exasperated all the time when he has tons of energy for strangers?

00:17:36 Because it's, I mean, he's lying, right? Like, there's this concept.

00:17:46 I'm not really.

00:17:47 It's a marker of, it's a display, like a marker. It's a sort of a threat gesture almost, right?

00:17:54 But so why would he, why would he want to give you this impression that he was just so tired

00:17:59 and grumpy all the time when it's not true? Because, you know, I'm sure the phone rings,

00:18:02 the doorbell rings, and he's like all kinds of pleasant, right?

00:18:04 Yeah, definitely.

00:18:08 So what's going on? What's he doing?

00:18:10 I'm not, I think he was like, the whole marriage to me, when I look back on it,

00:18:23 it seemed like he just kind of settled and did something he didn't want to do,

00:18:29 and then he was stuck in it. And so he was just unhappy, but didn't want to give that impression

00:18:35 to people, I guess. He wanted to lie about it so he would still look good. So his image wouldn't

00:18:43 be, wouldn't be tainted. I mean, that's what it seemed like to me.

00:18:47 You're a very nice young man.

00:18:53 Oh, so charitable.

00:18:57 I'm not trying to be.

00:18:58 No, no, I mean, I get the survival mechanism and all that, but you're a very nice young man.

00:19:02 And, you know, I appreciate that, you know, that's going to serve you well in life.

00:19:06 I don't think it serves you particularly well with understanding your family,

00:19:08 which is probably why we're talking, but you are a very nice young man, very charitable,

00:19:13 very, very kind, very thoughtful, very best, you know, think the best of people, right?

00:19:17 Right, yeah. I don't want to be in this case, but I'm,

00:19:26 yeah, it's just, it's hard for me to, to, to wrap my head around a lot of that and to,

00:19:31 to go deep. And that's what, you know, that's why I wanted to call, but it's like,

00:19:37 yeah, I mean, just, yeah, that's the, that's the impression I got was that he's just kind of

00:19:44 settled with my, with my mom and then. Okay, no, but with regards to you, hang on.

00:19:48 I just don't know. I really don't know.

00:19:49 Sorry, with regards to you.

00:19:50 Yeah.

00:19:51 Why would he give you the impression that he was just so tired and grumpy and all of that?

00:20:00 Well, I just, I think he didn't want to be around me for some reason of which I'm not sure.

00:20:10 Well, you're taking it personally, right? It wasn't personal to you, right?

00:20:15 Because it was everyone. It was his wife, the whole family, wasn't it?

00:20:21 I mean, unless he had some sort of family.

00:20:23 Yeah. Yeah. Especially later on. No, I don't, well, maybe my, maybe my older sister, I think.

00:20:31 Yeah. I think she was probably the, I think she was probably his, his favorite for sure.

00:20:35 Right.

00:20:36 But I never really noticed that in, until I was older, I think that was, there was a lot that was

00:20:44 not, not obvious to me when I was younger. I didn't pick up on, on a lot of the things.

00:20:50 Right.

00:20:51 Yeah.

00:20:52 Okay. So the general reason why parents, you know, I know all these tricks, like I've been a parent,

00:21:00 I've been a parent now for almost 16 years, right? So, and so the reason why your father would

00:21:05 constantly give you the impression of irritation is so he didn't have to provide you resources as

00:21:11 a father to warn you away from, from wanting things from him.

00:21:19 Right.

00:21:20 And it comes out of an insecurity to some degree, which is, I really, I don't, I don't really want

00:21:27 to give anything. So I'm going to pretend like, I don't know if you've ever had this where you've

00:21:32 been at a job and some guy is just like, man, I'm just, I'm so overworked. I'm so busy. I'm so this,

00:21:37 I'm so that, right. And you know, maybe he's not really right. But so why does he do that?

00:21:41 Why does he constantly give the boss the impression that he's just so overworked?

00:21:46 Right. He wants, he wants less work. He doesn't want to do the job.

00:21:52 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so busy. I'm so this, I'm so that,

00:21:55 and all of this is just so that the boss doesn't give him work, right?

00:22:00 So your dad didn't want you to bother him. So he put out this general sense of grumpiness

00:22:12 so that you would not bother him. If that makes sense.

00:22:18 Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

00:22:22 So it's not personal to you, right? It's not like, like the guy doesn't hate the boss who

00:22:29 does that with his boss, right? He just doesn't want the work, right? Just doesn't want to do

00:22:33 the work. Now as to why he didn't want to do the work, I don't know. I mean, I don't know,

00:22:41 and it doesn't really matter because what we're dealing with, and we can theorize about your

00:22:46 father all we want or your mother, right? But you know, the fact is that he didn't do a job.

00:22:52 He didn't, it sounds like he didn't do the job of parenting, right? Now, of course, you know,

00:22:56 I can say, well, gee, that's a real shame because, you know, parenting is actually a lot of fun,

00:22:59 right? It's a great thing to do. And you know, boy, did he ever miss out on a lot, right? Like

00:23:06 somebody asked me the other day, you know, do you, do you feel, did you ever have a thing with

00:23:09 your daughter where you're like, you're so sad because your mom didn't have this much fun with

00:23:13 you and so on? And, and you say, you know, and I'm like, I think it is really sad. You know,

00:23:18 I think my mom, you know, and your dad or whatever, like the parents who didn't really do

00:23:21 much parenting because they were kind of lazy and they preferred the TV. Like my mom was a big TV

00:23:26 person too. And it's like, well, gee, that's really, that's really sad. You know, what a,

00:23:29 what a sad situation, right? How tragic that somebody would make those choices, right?

00:23:36 And say, well, gee, but why would they do that? It's like, well, why would that matter? Right?

00:23:39 That's the fact is that they did do that, right? The why, I mean, you'll never find out, right?

00:23:44 Because lazy, like, he's not going to be honest about it, right? He's not going to say, well,

00:23:47 my childhood and this, that, because he just acted it all out or, you know, but it's just lazy,

00:23:51 right? I mean, you, you've got kids and, you know, if, and you've got, when you've got kids,

00:23:56 you've got responsibilities. And, you know, one of the big responsibilities is, gee, you know,

00:24:01 you're really going to have to spend some time with your kids. You like, you, you owe them time,

00:24:05 right? I mean, you've got to spend time with them. This is not an option, right? You know,

00:24:11 like it's, if, if you had some guy, like he's got a dog, right? And he's like, well, screw this dog,

00:24:18 man, I'm going to take this dog for any walks. It's like, you know, that's not an option, right?

00:24:22 You got, you got to take the dog for the walks, man. That's like the deal, right? Because the

00:24:29 dogs go insane if they don't get walks, right? You know, I got these goldfish, but you know,

00:24:34 I don't want to feed them. It's like, that's not really an option. Like you've got to feed you.

00:24:40 And so like this thing where it's like, yeah, you know, I got kids, but I'd rather watch TV.

00:24:44 It's like, that's not a practice. Like that's, I mean, you can do it, I guess, right? But it's

00:24:48 really bad. It's really toxic. And I guess that's my sort of big, big, big sort of observation is

00:24:58 that like, okay, so your dad did all of this sort of stuff, but you know, he didn't have the right

00:25:02 to do it. And it's not an option. Like there's no option called. And especially because, you know,

00:25:06 guys, you know, we, we go to work when we're tired, right? You know, like my daughter knows

00:25:12 I've done shows when I've got a headache. You know, when we were doing our tour in Australia,

00:25:18 man, that, that time switch was killer. And you know, I did it, right? So what am I going to do?

00:25:22 Say to her, well, you know, I was too tired to parent. It's like, you were, you weren't too

00:25:26 tired to do shows in Australia. Like you just did it, right? So I don't have that excuse. This is

00:25:32 sort of makes, I'm sorry to labor the point, but like, he doesn't like, it's just a lie.

00:25:37 No, no, that's like, that's huge for me. Yeah.

00:25:40 It was just, it was just false.

00:25:41 Yeah. I really, I really appreciate that. Definitely.

00:25:45 So, yeah. So I'm, I'm sorry about that, but yeah, it all was just not, it's none of it's true.

00:25:55 Right. Right. Yeah. That, that makes, makes much more sense. Yeah.

00:25:58 But you know, of course he prefers for you to think that it's true

00:26:02 because then you're like, you have sympathy for him, right? And you know, sympathy for,

00:26:08 sympathy is the big thing that lazy people always strip mine. Right.

00:26:11 Well, I provided, I was tired of it working all day, right?

00:26:15 Yeah. And that's what they want to give that image of that. They're actually doing something. Yeah.

00:26:22 Right. And, and of course he's, you know, by teaching you politeness, he's all about the,

00:26:26 you know, good, good social standards and this is the right thing to do. And you got to do what's

00:26:30 right. And it's like, okay, well then spend some time with your children. Don't spend time fishing

00:26:35 without them. Don't spend time watching TV and ignoring them. And right. Cause he knows what

00:26:42 the right thing to do is apparently. Right. So now the challenge of course then becomes

00:26:52 if this is the way your father was, of course, this is the way your father was,

00:26:55 how do you handle that as a kid? Like what, what narrative do you create as a kid

00:26:59 when this is who your dad is and this is what he's doing? So what do you say to yourself?

00:27:03 Well, for me, once it started happening more and more, and I noticed this pattern of being pushed

00:27:13 away by my father and my mother, not really, you know, she was doing the same thing to a lesser

00:27:18 extent. And she, you know, I remember my father doing it more, but she didn't really seem to care

00:27:23 about it. The narrative I built up was that I was annoying. That's what I built up in my mind. I

00:27:30 realized I'm annoying. I talk too much. I'm too hyper. I have a problem because I'm upsetting my

00:27:37 parents. I'm doing these things that are causing them this grief that are, you know, it's causing

00:27:42 them to yell at me. You know, they're verbally abusing me because I'm, you know, maybe they're

00:27:46 trying to watch a movie together or something. And then here I am trying to talk to them and it's,

00:27:50 it's my fault for, for trying to get their attention. And so that, that was the first

00:27:54 big thing in my mind was like, Oh, it's my fault. All of this is my fault. And when,

00:27:58 when I would try to, you know, connect with my, with my older brother as well, I mean, his,

00:28:04 he had, you know, the same, the same things being pushed onto him as well. And so he pushed me away

00:28:10 and that was hard for me to not have really anybody in the family to be able to connect to.

00:28:15 And so in my mind, it was just my fault. I'm annoying. I'm hyper. All of that, that was,

00:28:20 that was the first, you know, that was the narrative that I, that I built up.

00:28:23 Yeah. And do you know why? I mean, obviously you had some help with your parents saying

00:28:27 you're annoying and hyper, right? So they, but, but why do you think that you would

00:28:31 believe that? And it makes perfect sense to me that you would, but why would you believe that?

00:28:39 Just because of how, I think because of how,

00:28:43 how big of a deal it was and how, well, how big of a deal they made it rather and how, how much,

00:28:51 how much grief it, it seemed to cause them that I was trying to be near them. I mean, all of this,

00:28:58 all of this yelling and all of these consequences being grounded, all of this stuff, I,

00:29:01 I couldn't really think past that. And so I felt like I had no,

00:29:07 no reason to not believe it at that point.

00:29:10 Right. That's an elegant way of, of saying one thing. So the reason that you believed

00:29:19 that you were annoying rather than that your parents were lazy and inattentive,

00:29:22 the abuse and the abuse is called neglect, right? And it's one of the worst forms of

00:29:28 abuse that there is. In my view, the only form of abuse that's worse than neglect is sexual abuse.

00:29:36 So the reason why you had to believe not that your parents were abusing you through neglect,

00:29:44 but that you were annoying, it's because you have no choice but to believe that.

00:29:49 Right.

00:29:52 Because if you had said to your parents, so imagine this, right? You're eight years old

00:29:56 or whatever. And your dad's like, you're being annoying. You say, dad, I'm not being annoying.

00:30:01 You're a lazy parent. You barely spend any time with me. You come home, you watch TV,

00:30:09 you go fishing without me. You don't pay attention to your relationships. You put all your effort

00:30:13 into work and strangers. You're indistinguishable from a piece of furniture when you're home,

00:30:18 except a piece of furniture doesn't yell at me. So dad, you need to step the hell up and start

00:30:25 parenting. I don't like, why bother having kids if all you want to do is ignore them?

00:30:28 Right. If you want to give us up, but like, if you don't like us for whatever weird reason,

00:30:32 you decided to have kids and then I don't know, not like them, then you need to find

00:30:36 some other place for us to go because you suck right now. Yeah. What would he do?

00:30:42 Oh, it would be, it would be just, um, it would be the same thing over and over again. Just like,

00:30:49 just yelling at me for, for speaking up. Cause that's.

00:30:52 No, no, but what, what would he do? Cause that, that's, that's a pretty core thing,

00:30:58 right? To say dad, you're lazy and you suck and it's not my fault.

00:31:01 That, that I'm, I'm lonely. Like I miss you. I want a father. I don't want some

00:31:07 back of a head watching a TV stuffed mannequin, empty headed guy. Right. So if you, if you say

00:31:13 to him, uh, dad, it's you, it's not me. It's you want to see you like how angry does he get?

00:31:19 I think he would have lashed out and you know, maybe there would have been some,

00:31:25 some sympathy afterwards because sometimes when they would lash out, I would get some

00:31:31 sympathy afterwards to make up for, to try to make up for how much they'd yell at me.

00:31:34 But I think he would have just lashed out at me and told me, you know,

00:31:37 told me that I was, uh, you know, just saying inappropriate things or something. I mean, I,

00:31:45 okay, let's take it. Let's take it for a spin. Okay. Let's take it. Let's take it for a spin.

00:31:48 If you can play your dad. Sure. All right. So I come up to you, you, you've been watching TV for

00:31:57 an hour, right? You watched the game or something. And I'm like, dad, I need you to turn the TV off.

00:32:02 Like we need to talk because this is, this is pretty terrible situation. Like I don't get any

00:32:07 attention from you. You don't spend any time with me. You don't seem to want to spend any time with

00:32:12 me. It's upsetting. It's painful. And I need you to step up and I don't know, parent me in some

00:32:18 kind of way. No, no. What are you talking about? Go, go play with your brother. Go to your room,

00:32:29 go outside. You're bugging me. The TV's on. And then you turn the TV up or something like that.

00:32:33 Okay. Then I would go over, I go over and I unplug the TV and say, dad, you've got an addiction.

00:32:39 Like I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you've got an addiction to screens. Like you come

00:32:43 home and you spend most of your time watching TV. It's just how you want your life to be a bunch of

00:32:48 stupid sports ball games rather than spending actual time with your children. Like you got an

00:32:52 addiction. You got to break this shit, man. You got to, you got to spend time with your kids.

00:32:57 You got to parent, got to be a father, not just a piece of furniture watching TV.

00:33:03 Come on, snap out of it.

00:33:05 Yeah, that's where, that's where the yelling would come.

00:33:11 Okay. So what would he say?

00:33:12 That's where I'd be pushed away.

00:33:13 What would he say?

00:33:15 Um, I'm trying to think of like exactly what he would say if he was yelling.

00:33:22 Not exactly.

00:33:22 Things he would say when he was yelling.

00:33:23 Exactly, just approximately.

00:33:24 He would yell at me, go to, go to your room. What, you know, what's wrong with you?

00:33:33 Um.

00:33:35 Okay. And I'd say what's wrong with me is you don't spend time with me.

00:33:38 Be quiet.

00:33:38 You're not parenting me. Why, why do I, why do I have to tell you this? You know that you're not

00:33:43 parenting me. You've only taken me fishing a handful of times. You spend all your time in

00:33:47 front of TV. You're just telling me to go away all at the time. Well, I won't. Because you're my

00:33:51 father and you owe me time and attention. That's the deal. You know that's the deal, right? I

00:33:55 shouldn't have to tell you this either. So step away from the TV and do some parenting.

00:34:00 He would, he would lash out. He would just deny it. And he would, he would call me,

00:34:07 he would, you know, he would say I'm being silly. That was a big one. He'd say, oh,

00:34:10 you're being silly. Why are you being silly? And you'd push it all on me and deflect everything.

00:34:15 That's what he would do.

00:34:16 Right. And I would say, okay, dad, if I'm being silly, okay, dad, I'm being silly.

00:34:22 What was the last thing that you and I did together? What was the last time that you

00:34:31 came knocked on my door and said, I want to do, let's play a board game. Let's play some

00:34:35 monopoly. Let's go for a walk. Let's go for a bike ride. Let's go throw the ball around.

00:34:39 When was the last time you did that with me, dad?

00:34:41 Yeah, I honestly don't know what he'd say to that because he wouldn't,

00:34:49 I don't think he'd have much to say really. He would name something like

00:34:53 something insignificant. Like, oh, we did that like, oh, last week we remember blah,

00:34:58 blah, blah. And we did that like something just, you know, something insignificant that wasn't

00:35:03 really, uh, right. Yeah. I don't know.

00:35:07 Okay. And then I would say, so I'd say, well, that doesn't really matter. Let's talk about

00:35:11 something quality, something that I enjoyed, something that was meaningful, something that

00:35:14 was memorable. Okay. Let me ask you this dad, when was the last time you gave me advice other

00:35:20 than go away and don't be annoying. Like gave me some actual advice. Like you say, I'm hyper or

00:35:26 whatever, which basically just means I'm standing between you and the TV. I mean, you think I'm

00:35:32 hyper. You think I have HDAD. You can't, you can't function in this household without a 72 inch

00:35:36 screen up your nose. That's kind of hyper and ADHD, isn't it? Like, why is it that actually

00:35:43 human interaction isn't enough for you? Why isn't it actually spending time with your kids and

00:35:47 enjoying their company? Why isn't that enough? You think I've got ADHD. You can't concentrate

00:35:53 on anything if there aren't 14 guys running around throwing balls.

00:35:56 Yeah, I don't think, I don't know what he would say that. I think you would just,

00:36:05 there were times where he would, he would probably explode at something like that,

00:36:08 where he would just freak out and pretend to feel bad.

00:36:12 Yeah. So when someone's dissociated, which means they're out of contact with their emotions and

00:36:18 those around them, then when you try to close that gap and you actually have a complaint and you don't,

00:36:23 then they explode with violence. Right. Right. And it's really dangerous, actually.

00:36:32 I'm not kidding about that. That's really dangerous. People can explode. Like when you,

00:36:38 when you try to break through someone's dissociative defenses, what's on the other

00:36:46 side is almost always blind rage. Now, I don't mean he'd strangle you or something like that,

00:36:50 but I mean, there could be very much physical violence that could be harmful, even if by accident.

00:36:56 Or it's not just the physical violence, it's also the emotional violence.

00:37:02 Which is, you know, he, I'm not saying he would, but I'm sort of trying to give you a category

00:37:07 of the kind of things that people say when you push through their defenses and you try to make

00:37:13 yourself real to them because you weren't real to your father. Otherwise he would have empathized

00:37:17 with you and tried to be a good father. Right. So when you depersonalize other people and then

00:37:22 they become real to you, you explode with rage because your conscience, right. The way that you

00:37:26 treat people badly, especially children, is you dehumanize them. You turn them into a category

00:37:30 into just annoyances and you're self-righteous and everything's their fault, which is really

00:37:34 the opposite of parenting. Parenting is taking responsibility, not giving it all to your kids.

00:37:39 It's kind of weird. Right. So, you know, it's like if you're late to work and you say to your

00:37:46 boss, "Well, I'm not here because my eight-year-old wouldn't drive me." Your boss would be like,

00:37:52 "What? What are you blaming your kid for? You're the one with the car." And it's even more insane

00:37:57 than that. So when you push through people's defenses, what happens is that even if there's

00:38:07 not physical violence, and there often is, even if there's not physical violence, they say stuff

00:38:13 that they can't come back from. So they say shit like, "Man, you were just an accident. I didn't

00:38:20 even want you here in the first place." Or, "I never wanted to become a father. I hate being

00:38:26 a father. You kids are just little shits and you don't give me a moment's peace.

00:38:28 You know, I hate you guys, really." I don't know. I'm not saying what he would say. I'm

00:38:34 just saying that when you push through people's defenses in an assertive manner,

00:38:40 they blow up. And whether it's physical or verbal or both,

00:38:44 it's like the mask is ripped off and you can't make up stuff anymore.

00:38:55 Like when you see that level of rage, you can't just sit there and say, "Well,

00:38:57 the problem is I'm slightly insistent. It's like the problem is my dad's seriously disturbed."

00:39:02 That was what was most terrifying for me, was that point we would get to where it seemed like

00:39:14 there was going to be physical violence. And I'm now remembering, there were some times where you

00:39:20 would... I don't know the exact circumstance, but maybe I was doing something you didn't want me to

00:39:25 do and you'd grab me by the wrist and yank me into another room or something. And he would say things

00:39:33 like what you were saying. He never came out and said, "I wish you weren't born." But he would say

00:39:43 things almost on the same level as that. And I'm trying to think of an example, but it was like,

00:39:48 "You guys are a handful," really, really hurtful things like that. And

00:39:53 it was always leading up to that. It had to be more than, "You guys are a handful."

00:39:58 Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure how you'd get to that point.

00:40:14 [silence]

00:40:25 Yeah, because bad people can almost never forgive you for making them confront their own conscience.

00:40:29 So you had to say, "Well, the problem is that I'm annoying. The problem is that I'm hyper,"

00:40:39 that's the problem. Because you had to take that on, otherwise you would have seen

00:40:43 an ugly side to your father that you couldn't recover from, if that makes sense.

00:40:50 Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:52 Like, how the hell do you live in the house with someone like that, right?

00:40:56 Yeah. Would have been hard to wrap my head around it to be able to cope with that,

00:41:02 if that was the case.

00:41:03 Yeah, and I mean, it's not just at home, right? It's the same thing at school.

00:41:06 You can't say to your teacher,

00:41:09 "You're boring and this stuff is irrelevant. Why the hell should I care about any of this?"

00:41:12 Yeah.

00:41:14 I mean, you take your paycheck from my parents by force. Why should I look at you as a moral

00:41:20 authority about anything? You can't say anything as a kid about the society you live in, right?

00:41:25 That's true. Yeah, it was always like, any pushback like that, it was just branded as

00:41:37 me being silly or something like that. Anytime I would question anything.

00:41:40 There was one time where I had my mouth washed out with soap. I must have been trying to get

00:41:46 my father's attention. I don't remember exactly what I was doing, but he didn't like it.

00:41:52 He was telling me to stop doing it. I kept doing it and he took me into the bathroom,

00:41:58 grabbed me by the wrist, and he was washing my mouth out with liquid soap. I think I was

00:42:03 cussed or something like that. He was trying to get me to stop. I thought it was funny. He'd

00:42:09 drag me into the bathroom. I think my siblings were watching me as well,

00:42:13 maybe even my mom. They watched him do that to me.

00:42:16 What was your mother? You said she was also a bit avoidant, right?

00:42:23 What was she like in all of this or on her own?

00:42:27 It seemed like she would yell too. She would yell at us. Not to the degree that our father

00:42:34 would yell, but she would yell. She'd have her outbursts too in the same sense as our father

00:42:39 would. When he would get really angry, she would just let him take the reins. She wouldn't intervene.

00:42:45 It was like he was the... It was his way, but she was the exact same. I don't see why she wouldn't

00:42:56 intervene because she was almost as bad as him anyways.

00:43:00 Did she goad him and wind him up sometimes? Like, "The kids are so bad," and let him take over?

00:43:07 Yeah, I think, yeah. Or she would just let him handle it. Like, "Oh, you have to go tell your

00:43:14 father what you did so he can deal with it," because she didn't want to be a parent either,

00:43:19 so she would just pass it off to him and let him deal with it. But she would definitely goad him,

00:43:24 for sure. Not often, but I can remember instances where that was the case, for sure.

00:43:30 Right, right. And physical discipline?

00:43:32 I don't think any physical... Aside from my father grabbing me and washing my mouth with soap,

00:43:40 I think I was never hit or anything like that. I think just grabbed, I mean,

00:43:46 yanked out of rooms a few times when I was a small... I don't know how old I would have been,

00:43:53 maybe 10 or 11, where he'd grab me and kind of have his way, "Oh, you're not doing that," and

00:44:00 grab me and move me to another area or something. But it didn't get any worse than that physically.

00:44:07 And how often would you get, I don't know, yelled at or insulted with your parents? How often would

00:44:14 that happen? I would say probably most weekends, if not every weekend, because that's when everybody

00:44:22 was home. That's when they weren't distracting themselves with work or with surrogate activities.

00:44:28 And so they were forced to all be in the home. My mom, she would distract. She would keep busy

00:44:36 with housework, crazy amount of housework, cleaning and all that. And my dad, he would try

00:44:44 to escape on fishing trips or mow the lawn, do yard work for half the day or most of the day.

00:44:51 But it was usually on the weekend when everybody was home and they had to be forced to be around us,

00:44:58 essentially. And were your grandparents in the picture much?

00:45:04 So my parents lived in a different province, and so all my family on my mom's and dad's side

00:45:12 were in another province. So I didn't see them. I saw my extended family maybe once

00:45:19 in the summer. We'd go over to another province and stay for a couple of weeks,

00:45:23 which my dad didn't like my mom's family. He didn't really seem to like his own family.

00:45:28 It was an appalling experience.

00:45:30 I'm sorry, he did seem to like his own family?

00:45:32 No, he had a very strange relationship with... He was close with a couple of his brothers,

00:45:39 but his youngest brother was... He didn't really know his youngest brother that well.

00:45:47 He was always talking bad about people when they weren't around, even his own family.

00:45:53 Sorry, he was talking what?

00:45:55 Talking bad about them. Like, "Oh, did you see the way his kids were doing this?" He always had

00:46:02 something to say about somebody when they weren't around.

00:46:04 Right, okay. And his own parents, how did he get along with them?

00:46:13 I know small things about his childhood. His dad, my grandfather, passed away before I was born,

00:46:19 so I don't know too much about him. But I remember... This has always stuck with me,

00:46:24 because he told me this when I was really young, but I remember he told me that his parents said

00:46:28 to him when he was 18 that they couldn't afford to feed him. He was an athlete, and they basically

00:46:35 told him that they couldn't afford to feed him. He might have been 16 years old when they said that,

00:46:40 so I just... That's one of the only things I know about his upbringing, was that it was

00:46:44 not very positive.

00:46:46 Sorry, does that mean they couldn't afford to feed him as an athlete? Like,

00:46:50 they couldn't afford to feed him the extra food an athlete requires?

00:46:53 I think that was part of it, but I think just in general, because he was growing,

00:47:00 and it was at that point where he was...

00:47:01 Oh, yeah, teenage boys, you might as well go to the grocery store and just

00:47:05 load up the cart and throw it down a well. Yeah, no, it's great. Well, you know, right?

00:47:08 You're a teenage boy too, right?

00:47:09 Yeah.

00:47:10 Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. And, you know, my friends I know who have teenage boys, it's like,

00:47:16 "Dinner will be in half an hour. I'm hungry. I need two slices of pizza first. That's my

00:47:19 appetizer." Yeah, it's crazy.

00:47:21 Yeah, exactly.

00:47:22 But then they're all spiraling up, past six, three, six, four, so it kind of makes sense.

00:47:26 Yeah.

00:47:26 Yeah, that's just the deal, right?

00:47:27 Yeah.

00:47:28 That's the deal. Teenage boys are just... They're just like Pac-Man, just like, never stop eating.

00:47:33 Okay, so you didn't have much to do. And what about any other extended family,

00:47:39 aunts, uncles, or I guess your father had brothers, didn't hear much about your mom, though?

00:47:43 Yeah, my mom's family is mainly who you would see. My mom was the youngest of six siblings,

00:47:51 and the situation when we would go to the other province and visit, we would always stay with her

00:48:00 family at her mom and dad's place. And her mom, my grandma, was a very negative person. Since my mom

00:48:10 had moved out of the province, she didn't want to accept us as her grandchildren. Very negative

00:48:16 person. She was nice sometimes, but you just got that feeling you could not...

00:48:21 The lines for grandchildren stop at the provincial edge, I quite follow that.

00:48:26 Yeah. I never understood that either, but I think she viewed it as some sort of betrayal that

00:48:32 she moved to a different province. I really have no idea what that was about.

00:48:38 I only heard that... I didn't hear that directly from my grandmother, but I think through my mom

00:48:45 when I was a bit older, maybe after my grandmother had died. And my grandfather was...

00:48:53 He had actually... I didn't learn this about my grandfather until a year ago, but he had fallen

00:48:59 off of a ladder or fallen off an apple tree or something like this, and it got brain damage.

00:49:04 I didn't know this for my whole childhood and all of my adolescence. So he was essentially

00:49:10 not operating at full brain function. He was like, I don't know what you'd call it,

00:49:15 like a simpleton. And I didn't know this for my whole life until around a year ago.

00:49:20 And it was just a very strange dynamic. I liked going to the other province. I liked

00:49:27 spending the summer there, but I didn't really like being around any of the family,

00:49:32 because it was all gossip. It was all very negative for the most part.

00:49:38 And did you notice that your grandfather was odd as a kid,

00:49:40 or was it something you only really picked up on later?

00:49:42 No, I noticed he was odd, but I just assumed maybe he... It was just because he was older.

00:49:49 Right, right, right.

00:49:50 Because I'm 23 and he's 95 now. And my parents had me when they were older, so I was just like,

00:49:58 "Oh, he's an older guy. It's probably something to do with that." But no, that wasn't it at all.

00:50:04 All right. So how was your daily life when you were a teenager?

00:50:16 It was non-existent. I was very interested in girls, but there were so many... I never had

00:50:23 any instructions. Oh, they do smell good. I'll certainly give you that. They are very pretty.

00:50:28 Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you were interested in girls, but what was going on?

00:50:33 Well, it was really difficult for me. I didn't understand it, but I was interested in girls,

00:50:41 I think, since I was 11 is when I started noticing all that. But I would get up to the point of where

00:50:49 you would ask a girl out, you would go through that sort of courtship stage, I guess.

00:50:54 But I could never get past that. It was like there was something blocking me. I didn't know.

00:50:58 I just felt like I was shy or something, but I was always outgoing and funny and all that.

00:51:05 But up until that point, it's like I didn't know what to do. And then I would just let things

00:51:09 fizzle out. And that was the case until I was about to...

00:51:12 Okay, so sorry. So you'd go up and talk to girls. Did you do any sports as a teenager?

00:51:16 When I was young, maybe around 10, I played football, but nothing when I was a teenager, no.

00:51:24 Why not? I mean, your father's an athlete, right? So he was an athlete.

00:51:28 Yeah, I think it was because I'd been pushed into playing football when I was younger by my father,

00:51:36 and I didn't really have an interest in it. It was more something he was interested in.

00:51:39 And so that kind of turned me off from sports as a whole.

00:51:42 I think I would have liked to play baseball. I would have liked to play...

00:51:48 I even would have liked to... I would have liked... Yeah, I probably would have liked to play

00:51:55 baseball. I liked a lot of the outdoor stuff, though. I would have liked to learn to fish.

00:51:59 I would have liked to go hiking, camping all the time. I was really,

00:52:04 really into that, but it was never nurtured.

00:52:06 Masochist camping. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, in my 50s, camping is like, "Ah,

00:52:12 excellent. Three flies in the tent and a mosquito, and I have a tree root up my ass. This is great."

00:52:17 But no, I get it when we go camping. It's a lot of fun. That's in the rearview for me. But anyway,

00:52:23 okay.

00:52:23 Yeah, I hear you.

00:52:24 So you would go and you'd talk to girls, right? You'd sort of chat with girls,

00:52:31 and you would... Sorry, did you get round to asking them out, or was that the bridge too far?

00:52:34 That was the bridge too far. It was always like...

00:52:37 Oh, so you're like a fly-by flirty guy and can't get it happening, right?

00:52:44 You must have driven girls completely mental.

00:52:45 Yeah, I drove myself pretty mental, too, but I think it was...

00:52:49 No, no, I was talking about the girls. I'm enough of you.

00:52:51 Yes.

00:52:52 No, because the girls are like, "Well, he seems to like me, but maybe I'm unattractive. Did my

00:52:56 breath smell? Did I not wear deodorant today? Why isn't he asking me out?"

00:53:01 Yeah, I'm sure, yeah.

00:53:04 Okay, so you were like Mr. Friend Zone guy?

00:53:07 It wasn't even friend zone. It was just like...

00:53:11 I guess, yeah, I guess it was kind of like friend zone, but I wouldn't...

00:53:16 He would just sort of get up to that point of where I should have asked them out,

00:53:22 and then it would be the bridge too far, and then I wouldn't really continue talking with

00:53:27 them. It would just sort of die off. That relationship would just sort of die off.

00:53:31 Okay, and why?

00:53:36 I was scared for some reason. It was...

00:53:43 No, come on. You're a guy. Of course, you're scared. I mean, we're all scared of girls,

00:53:48 but we're teenagers. It's terrifying. I get that, but why? So you go, but you do it, right?

00:53:53 I just meant saying I was scared more in the... Because you will have like, "Oh,

00:54:00 I'm nervous to go talk to her," but it was more than that. It was like I shouldn't do it. It was

00:54:06 like I felt like I... Not that I shouldn't do it. I felt like I couldn't do it. It wasn't possible

00:54:10 for me to do it, and I really, really wanted to. I really wanted to have a connection with somebody,

00:54:16 with a girl, but I just felt like I physically and mentally just couldn't get past that point.

00:54:22 To asking them out and to being in a relationship. But why? I don't know. I just felt like...

00:54:29 Well, you do. No, you do. You just don't know consciously. You do, right? I mean,

00:54:32 I don't because I'm not you. So if you don't and I don't, then we can't get it, right?

00:54:36 I think it was just... I don't think I knew how to relate. No, that's not it.

00:54:50 I just... I don't know. I think it was the...

00:54:52 Just the connection, I think, was... Oh, come on. Okay. So... I'm trying to work... Sorry to be

00:55:01 annoying. I'm sorry to be annoying. No, you're not. You already told me. That's why I'm gone.

00:55:05 So the way it works, of course, is that we're terrified of girls, and so what does God or

00:55:14 nature do to have us push through? Lust! Yeah, the hormones of the attraction, the lust. Yeah.

00:55:31 So when did you start using pornography?

00:55:33 I would say 12 years old, maybe when I was 11, but I would... For sure, when I was 12 years old.

00:55:42 And I assume that your parents didn't

00:55:44 talk to you about this or warn you if the risks are dangerous or all of that, right?

00:55:51 No, they didn't even talk to me about girls at all.

00:55:55 Okay. So that's sabotage, right?

00:55:58 Yeah.

00:55:59 No, but you really get that? Like, that's absolute sabotage?

00:56:04 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

00:56:09 And so you have the fork in the road, right? And the fork in the road is, I can

00:56:16 continue talking to girls, maybe I get rejected, maybe I flame out or whatever,

00:56:20 or there's pornography, right?

00:56:22 Yeah.

00:56:23 Sorry, that's why I was like, "Oh, come on," because it's like,

00:56:26 didn't you say that in your email, right?

00:56:28 Yeah, you're right. Yeah, that was the... Once I got older, that was like, that took away

00:56:34 most of my motivation, for sure.

00:56:37 Well, no, hang on. But what about as a teen?

00:56:39 Yeah, as a teen, I think it was just the same. But even in... Because there was one case in

00:56:49 elementary school before I had discovered pornography, where I just had the same

00:56:54 feeling where I didn't know how to get over that bridge. And maybe once I discovered it...

00:57:01 Okay, so what's the bridge?

00:57:06 Getting to the point of asking them out...

00:57:08 No, no, I understand what that is. But what is the bridge, like, in your mind?

00:57:11 What can you not get beyond?

00:57:13 I think just talking to them and...

00:57:18 Sorry, I thought you could talk to them.

00:57:21 But in that way of... I could talk to them up until it became...

00:57:26 Until it meant that it was like to build a relationship to be in a...

00:57:32 To be their boyfriend, until it got to that point. That's when the fear came in, because

00:57:38 I was able to make them laugh. I was able to be charismatic up until that point when I realized

00:57:47 what I had to do.

00:57:48 Obviously, you're a decent-looking guy, right?

00:57:49 I was scared.

00:57:50 You're a decent-looking guy?

00:57:51 Yeah, I was a good-looking guy, for sure.

00:57:54 Okay. So what's the barrier?

00:58:02 I think it was the physical connection.

00:58:04 Go on.

00:58:06 I think it was the physical connection with somebody, because I didn't...

00:58:11 It was like that was the unknown to me, and it was...

00:58:13 Wait, you've been watching pornography since you were 12,

00:58:18 but the physical connection is unknown?

00:58:19 I don't think you were very good at that, then.

00:58:22 Yeah.

00:58:24 Yeah, just...

00:58:30 Just thinking of like...

00:58:34 I don't know. It was very fearful for me, thinking of the physical

00:58:42 affection, thinking of that. But I wanted that. That was what I wanted.

00:58:48 What do you mean by physical affection? Hugging, cuddling, kissing, sex? I'm not sure what you mean.

00:58:52 Well, when I was younger, it was like, yeah, holding hands, hugging, kissing,

00:58:56 stuff like that. That's what I was afraid of. But at the same time, that's what I wanted.

00:59:03 I wanted to have a girlfriend, but I was afraid of that, even though that's what I wanted.

00:59:08 So you were scared of even holding hands, kissing stuff, right?

00:59:14 Yeah, absolutely.

00:59:16 Okay, and why? What was...

00:59:18 Saying I'm scared of something is not saying it, right? Like if I say,

00:59:22 "I'm scared of wolves," well, I'm not scared of wolves. I'm scared of having my ass chewed off.

00:59:26 Right? If I say, "I'm frightened of heights," I'm not frightened of heights. I'm frightened of

00:59:30 falling, or rather, the impact, right?

00:59:32 Yeah.

00:59:34 So one, I used to be scared of.

00:59:35 Yeah, that's true.

00:59:35 And sorry, have you had a relationship since, or are we still in a...

00:59:42 I was in...

00:59:42 ...slight of a dry spell?

00:59:43 No, I was in a relationship for around two years that I got out of in 2022.

00:59:52 Okay. Okay, so...

00:59:55 Maybe just maybe a year and a half.

00:59:56 ...let's get back to the teens. So what are you scared of?

00:59:58 And I don't mean, "What are you scared of?" like, "What are you scared of?" That doesn't

01:00:05 make any sense. I'm genuinely curious.

01:00:07 Yeah.

01:00:07 You had a fear?

01:00:08 Yeah, I'm just trying to...

01:00:09 ...of what it was of?

01:00:09 I'm trying to... I just have never thought about what it actually was that caused me to feel that.

01:00:19 Would you like a theory?

01:00:20 Yes, please.

01:00:23 Okay. So you bring a girl home. You like her a lot. She likes you. She looks up to you. She

01:00:28 respects you. She thinks you're the man, right? You bring her home and she sees you. I mean,

01:00:35 I know your parents are divorced when you're 13 or whatever, right? But let's just say,

01:00:38 right, you bring the girl home and how is your dad with you?

01:00:42 Not good at all.

01:00:50 He's going to undermine you, right?

01:00:51 Yeah.

01:00:52 He's going to...

01:00:53 Yeah, that's true.

01:00:53 ...alpha male it and put you down, right? And you're going to be put in this really

01:00:57 awkward situation. He's going to make jokes at your expense. He's going to poke fun. He's going

01:01:00 to like, whatever, right? You're going to be in a screwed up position. Am I wrong? I don't know

01:01:04 your dad. I'm just guessing.

01:01:05 No, and I think you're spot on because just a small thing about that is something that stuck

01:01:15 with me too that my dad said was one of our family friends was joking like, "Oh, you're

01:01:22 chasing girls?" I was probably like maybe 13 and he kind of like asked me that. And my dad

01:01:28 actually burst out laughing at the thought of me being with girls. He's like, "Oh, this guy? No,

01:01:35 no." And he was laughing. He was laughing at me and laughing at that question. So I think you're

01:01:40 spot on with that.

01:01:41 I'm trying not to think the worst of your dad, but it's really not... This kind of shit does

01:01:45 not help.

01:01:46 Yeah, that's true.

01:01:48 I'm trying to have some understanding and all of that. And it's just like, "Oh God,

01:01:53 maybe he's just an a-hole."

01:01:54 Yeah, pretty much. I mean, that killed me right there. Yeah.

01:02:00 Oh, if your dad thinks that you're a loser with the girls, I mean, that's really tough.

01:02:05 Yeah.

01:02:07 That's really tough. I'm so sorry, man. That's just... Oh God.

01:02:11 I'm so sorry. That's awful. Absolutely terrible. Absolutely terrible.

01:02:17 No, I appreciate it.

01:02:20 Yeah. So you can't date girls if your dad's going to put you down?

01:02:24 Yeah.

01:02:27 Because you're going to end up losing the girl and hating your dad.

01:02:29 Yeah. That's, yeah, absolutely.

01:02:34 Okay. So tell me about the relationship that just ended in 2022, the two-year.

01:02:40 Were you still on drugs?

01:02:47 Yeah, actually. Well, I think at that time I'd started, I think before that I'd started

01:02:53 drinking a little bit, experimenting with that. And once I got into the relationship

01:02:59 with her again, I had been sort of on and off weed as well, because I had thrown myself into

01:03:06 this relationship because I was lonely. It wasn't because I liked her as a person. I just found her

01:03:11 physically attractive. And I was in a spot where...

01:03:17 So you were acting like your dad, like your mom.

01:03:19 Yeah.

01:03:21 Yeah. Got it. Actually, my mom was quite pretty, but not a very nice person and all that, right?

01:03:25 Yeah, definitely.

01:03:27 All right.

01:03:28 And so, yeah, I'd gotten... I was working at a grocery store at this time, and I was working

01:03:35 in grocery stocking shelves. She was a cashier. And we started working the same shift, and

01:03:43 I had come out of being overweight. I'd lost a bunch of weight and I had a lot of confidence

01:03:50 in myself again.

01:03:51 What was your history with weight?

01:03:53 Oh, I had... Right after my parents' divorce, I started gaining weight. I started stress eating

01:04:04 and all of that. When I was 14, I really gained a lot of weight. And then from then on, I was just

01:04:08 slowly...

01:04:09 How much?

01:04:09 ...gaining weight. Oh, I got up to 233 pounds was the last time I remember weighing myself.

01:04:18 How tall are you?

01:04:19 I'm 5'11".

01:04:20 233. Yeah, I'm 5'11 and a half or whatever. So I'm thinking I'm like 187. So yeah, that's like

01:04:27 a good 50 pounds. Okay.

01:04:29 Yeah.

01:04:30 45. Okay. So yeah, you got pretty heavy, right?

01:04:34 Yeah. I was really... When I was 14, I remember I was around... I think I was like 200 pounds or

01:04:41 something like that. And I had a big... It killed me to look at it, but in my yearbook photo, I had

01:04:45 a huge double chin and everything. It was really hard for me. Once I grew a bit, I lost a little

01:04:52 bit of weight in high school. But after high school, I gained... I'd broken my foot in 2019.

01:04:58 And so I was just sitting and eating...

01:05:00 How did you break your foot? I just talked to somebody yesterday about that. How did

01:05:03 you break your foot?

01:05:04 Really? I was just skateboarding just on flat ground and I fell forward while the board was

01:05:12 tilted up and I just fell and twisted my foot and all the weight kind of went on.

01:05:16 One stressed one bone in my foot and snapped it pretty much.

01:05:20 And so after I broke my foot, I gained 20 more pounds on top of already being

01:05:30 overweight. So I probably got up to 210 at that point. And then by 2020, that's when I'd been

01:05:37 continuing my eating. So I was about 233 pounds by that point.

01:05:42 Right. And you were a gamer too, right?

01:05:47 Yeah. I would play video games, watch movies, no physical activity really.

01:05:57 Right. Okay.

01:05:59 And yeah, so once I... And this is one of the things that I think could be a contributor to

01:06:06 the bladder problems I have because I got really... I essentially went on a crash diet

01:06:11 and I got... Because I was really self-conscious. I hated looking at myself. I just didn't...

01:06:15 Well, and you're limited, right? You can't go to pool parties and there's a whole bunch of

01:06:20 things that are really stressful.

01:06:22 Yeah, absolutely. And it was... I kind of just decided one day, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm just going

01:06:30 to go and I'm just going to lose all this weight as soon as possible." And so I was pretty much

01:06:36 in the minimum of those.

01:06:37 So you've got gaming, you've got pornography, you've got weight. And I think... I'm no doctor,

01:06:42 right? But my understanding is that all of those things would contribute to low testosterone.

01:06:46 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:06:49 All right.

01:06:50 And yeah, from then on, when I was around 235 pounds, I pretty much had this breaking point

01:06:59 where I was like, "I got to... This has to stop." And so I was eating the minimum amount,

01:07:05 healthy amount of calories that a male can eat. Not even for my weight, just a male,

01:07:12 just generic. So I was starving myself and just dropping pounds off weekly. And so

01:07:21 eventually I got down to 175 is where I'm at now.

01:07:26 Oh, good for you.

01:07:27 Around 170, 175, just through diet alone, because I just couldn't take it anymore. It was really...

01:07:36 And I tried to lose weight before.

01:07:38 Sorry, did you do it young enough that you didn't get that sort of excess skin problem

01:07:41 that hits some people?

01:07:42 Yeah, I had some stretch marks that aren't really noticeable, like in my armpit area,

01:07:48 where my armpit meets my pec, but in some of my thighs, but I didn't have loose skin or anything

01:07:54 like that. And so I was really... Once I lost all the weight, I had a lot of energy. I was definitely

01:08:02 more higher T. I had a lot of self-confidence. I was really happy with how I looked for once in

01:08:09 my life, since I was like... I hadn't been happy with how I looked since I was maybe like 12 or 13

01:08:14 years old. And so that was a huge confidence booster for me.

01:08:17 And did... Well done, congratulations.

01:08:21 Did your parents notice anything about your weight or were they just too

01:08:26 self-involved with the divorce and all that?

01:08:28 No, they didn't really know. I'm sure maybe they did, because I mean, I had to be eating quite a

01:08:36 lot to get to the point where I had a big double channel of that. And my dad definitely noticed.

01:08:43 Well, your parents were buying you the food, right?

01:08:45 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't think my mom ever said anything, but she had to have noticed.

01:08:52 I remember my dad making jokes about comparing me to Chris Farley, because I was funny and I

01:09:00 was overweight. And so he would make jokes to me when I was like 14 or 15 about how I looked like,

01:09:05 how I reminded him of Chris Farley. He was very amused by that. He thought that was really funny.

01:09:10 And that was really hard on me. And I didn't say any... I didn't know what to say, but I kind of

01:09:15 just laughed it off, brushed it off. But he said that multiple times. He thought it was really,

01:09:19 really funny, but that was extremely, extremely hard on me and my self-esteem.

01:09:24 Absolutely. And I'm sorry to bounce around in time. What happened with your

01:09:34 parents' divorce? Why did that happen?

01:09:39 No, it's okay. I think my mom wanted to stay in it, but my dad was so unhappy at that point that he,

01:09:49 I think, had just fallen completely out of love with her and he was just done.

01:09:55 And from what I gathered, it was him that initiated it. And there was gossip about how

01:10:02 my mom supposedly... My mom's friend supposedly saw him holding hands with another woman at the mall,

01:10:08 which was... That was never confirmed to be true or false, but it just seemed like he was done and

01:10:19 there was nothing my mom could do about it. And so that was it. They had tried to... They'd gotten

01:10:24 a dog a couple years before they got divorced. They surprised us with a German shepherd. I think

01:10:31 that was supposed to bring the family together more. But all I did was gave my dad more of an

01:10:37 excuse to get out of the house to go spend time with the dog rather than his own children. And so

01:10:42 the dog died when she was two years old. And so a week after that is when they got divorced,

01:10:51 if I remember correctly. Do you know what the dog died of?

01:10:59 No, I think it was just some sketchiness in regards to the breeder. My dad was walking

01:11:04 her one day and she just collapsed in the cul-de-sac at the end of our street and

01:11:09 just died right there. Yeah.

01:11:12 Interesting. Okay. And then your parents...

01:11:15 And that was really hard. Yeah.

01:11:17 Were they fighting a lot or just different from each other before?

01:11:20 They would definitely fight and I didn't notice it a lot of the time, but they would fight.

01:11:27 Towards the end, it was just they were very distant. It wasn't really fighting towards the

01:11:31 end. They were just very, very distant. There wasn't really much arguing at that point. They

01:11:35 were just done with each other, I think. Right. And do you know what it was as a whole?

01:11:42 I mean, do you know anything in particular that might have happened, do you think?

01:11:53 Other than... I think what they told us was that they didn't love each other anymore.

01:11:58 And other than the gospel of my dad supposedly being with another woman, I'm not too sure.

01:12:03 I don't really know anything else other than that.

01:12:06 And do you think that they left each other before?

01:12:09 What do you mean by that? Well, you said they don't love each other anymore.

01:12:19 I'm trying to figure out when they would have left each other.

01:12:23 Oh, sorry. I thought you said left. I apologize. I think at the beginning they did. And I think

01:12:30 when we were young, when all of the kids were young, they did. But it seemed by the time I was

01:12:36 old enough to know what was going on, it didn't seem like they really loved each other. Because

01:12:41 after we had grown up a little bit, before I started hitting puberty, they didn't really go

01:12:46 out together or really do anything together at all. There were some family outings, like going

01:12:53 to dinner at family friends' houses, but I don't think they spent any time together, really. It

01:12:58 didn't seem like they were that close. Right. Yeah, I mean, and you said your father was

01:13:04 the TV guy and all of that. And your mom, you said, was like, it was all about the housework

01:13:11 and all of that. Was that the way that she mainly stayed distant from people?

01:13:16 Yeah, that was how she stayed distant. And it just seemed like she just wanted to keep busy

01:13:22 always. She always had to be doing something. She always had to keep busy with something.

01:13:26 And that was really tough on weekends because that was like, oh, I want to relax. And it was

01:13:36 like the vacuum bending up against the door, her trying to get all the kids to clean the house,

01:13:40 like waking us up. Oh, yeah. That manic stuff is pretty funny, right? And then they say you have.

01:13:45 Yeah. They say that you're high maintenance with your,

01:13:48 not ADHD, but the phrase, I can't remember what they've said about you,

01:13:54 annoying. Yeah, that I was hyper. Hyper, yeah, that's it. Your mom's manic with cleaning,

01:13:59 but you're hyper, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's the best description of my mom,

01:14:03 and even as far as I know to this day, just manic with cleaning. Oh, it's Saturday morning at 7am,

01:14:12 time to clean the entire house, even though I did it last week and there's not a speck of dust,

01:14:17 just constantly, it seemed like. Right. Okay. All right. So, the grocery store girl.

01:14:32 Yeah. Yeah. So, that started because I had a lot of... I found her physically attractive. I had a

01:14:42 lot more self-confidence in myself than I think I had ever. And so, I was talking to her and it was

01:14:50 just flirting. And it's very easy to see her all the time because we worked the same shifts,

01:15:01 usually closing shifts, like four days a week. And so, I would see her a lot at work and

01:15:05 make sure I went up and talked to her and would joke around. She thought I was really funny.

01:15:09 Sorry, yeah, I don't necessarily mean all the flirty stuff that happened at the beginning.

01:15:14 I mean, how the relationship goes on. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, sorry about that.

01:15:18 The relationship as a whole was, for the first few months, it was just like constant sex. That's

01:15:25 what it was for the first few months of the honeymoon stage, so to speak. And after that,

01:15:30 that's when it set in that... Well, I shouldn't say that's when it set in, but we didn't have

01:15:36 anything in common. I wasn't dating her because I thought she was virtuous or anything like that.

01:15:42 It was just because I was lonely and I wanted to have physical touch that I'd never experienced.

01:15:47 And so, it was... Sorry, was this your virginity relationship?

01:15:52 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And did she knew that?

01:15:56 No, I was self-conscious about it. And so, I'd lied to her about it because I didn't want her

01:16:01 to think that I was less of a man or weird or anything like that. And so, I'd actually lied

01:16:08 to her about it. So, after the first few months, I think it was two or three months after that,

01:16:16 it was okay for a while. We'd go out and do things together. And I actually didn't have my

01:16:23 driver's license at first. And I was surprised that... Because I was 21, I think. And I was

01:16:31 kind of surprised that that wasn't... I think it struck her as kind of interesting that I didn't

01:16:38 have a driver's license at that time, but I was in the process of doing it. And so, that was kind

01:16:44 of like, "Oh, she doesn't really care about something that I'm greatly insecure about.

01:16:48 So, that's good. So, I can pursue this," because that was a fear of mine. And eventually, once I

01:16:56 got a car and everything, I was going over to her place a lot, and the sex started to die down a

01:17:02 bit, and more arguing came up. It just became... Yeah, you had a bond without the trust and the

01:17:07 virtue, so you then panic, right? Yeah, exactly. There was no bond aside from physical.

01:17:18 And this was then within a couple months?

01:17:19 This was probably after... The first few months were fine, and then it was, I would say, after

01:17:27 in the fourth month, maybe.

01:17:29 How the hell do you stretch this shit out for two years then, brother?

01:17:32 I think it was... Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of lying to myself.

01:17:38 But I think it was maybe a year and a half, but it was a lot of lying to myself,

01:17:44 to answer your question. Stretching it that long, I was just really lying to myself for all

01:17:52 of the relationship, essentially. Right, okay. So, how did it go so long?

01:17:58 Well, it was mostly because I just wanted to be close to somebody. I wanted to feel physical

01:18:09 affection. And I... No, but you weren't feeling that as much after the first

01:18:14 couple of months, right?

01:18:16 Yeah, but I... Yeah, it's true. And even though that was the case, I still pursued it just so

01:18:22 that I could be with her. And it was like... It just turned into me simping, essentially,

01:18:34 for lack of a better word. And she came from a very dysfunctional family, and so...

01:18:42 Well, no, I get that.

01:18:43 Yeah, I mean, that's obvious, of course. And so, I was like, I don't know, I had this idea in my

01:18:52 mind, I could somehow save her. That was my crazy mindset for some reason. And I let all of the

01:19:03 arguments and all of the bad times with her slide just so that I could be...

01:19:10 Just so that I could be close to somebody physically, basically.

01:19:15 And what happened to end it?

01:19:17 Well, I had broken up with her after an argument, and then we got back together after a month

01:19:24 of being broken up.

01:19:26 And how did you get back together?

01:19:26 Because I finally... I caved in, and I was like, I can't try to live the truth because I'm too

01:19:33 weak. And so, I just wanted to go back...

01:19:34 I'm sorry, you caved in. Was she trying to get back together with you and you caved,

01:19:37 or you initiated the getting back?

01:19:39 Well, she was trying to get back together with me for a few weeks, and then she stopped,

01:19:45 and then I came back and was like, "Hey, let's talk." And then she was reluctant,

01:19:49 very reluctant because of how long it took me to try to get back together with her,

01:19:55 to agree to it, I guess.

01:19:56 Right. Okay.

01:19:58 And then after that, it was just the same decline. And then eventually, she messaged me,

01:20:04 she texted me and was like, "I knew it was going to be the breakup talk, and I was just so

01:20:10 I was done with it, but for some reason, I didn't want to be the one to end it."

01:20:13 Because I don't know, I felt like I still wanted to try, and then she kind of texted me and was

01:20:21 like, "Hey..." And I was like, "No, just say it." And once we had the discussion over text about

01:20:28 breaking up, then I just was... I felt like I was set free. I was finally out of it, and that was

01:20:34 a big relief for me.

01:20:36 Okay. Got it.

01:20:38 Got it. All right. And since then, you haven't dated, right?

01:20:42 No, after... I'd say about four months after we broke up, I became Christian after her and I

01:20:53 broke up, which was... When I say I was living in... lying to myself for the whole relationship

01:20:59 was because I'd slowly been looking into philosophy and into what I believe is the truth,

01:21:04 and then I just threw that all away because I realized I could have physical affection with

01:21:07 somebody. And I went against that rule.

01:21:10 I'm not sure about physical affection, but yeah, you can have sex.

01:21:12 Yeah, yeah. And I heavily went against... I betrayed my brother because he was really

01:21:20 trying to help me and I. And him and I have been... had made up and... what's the word?

01:21:29 We had sort of resolved the childhood issues, and so I was really close to him, and I kind of

01:21:34 spit in his face by going into this, and that was really hard for me.

01:21:39 Sorry, but what do you mean? Spit in his face? Seems pretty dramatic when I'm putting it,

01:21:44 but what do you mean?

01:21:44 Yeah, yeah. I just mean because he had introduced me to a lot of things that were

01:21:50 for my benefit, like, "Hey, he really motivated me to lose weight. He really motivated me to

01:21:56 lose weight. He really motivated me to quit smoking weed, to stop watching porn, to..."

01:22:03 He really motivated me into all this self-help stuff because he got into this way before I did,

01:22:08 and he's a very smart guy. And so it was really... I don't think I would have come out of it if it

01:22:14 weren't for him. I don't think I would have come out of being overweight or stoned 24/7

01:22:20 if it weren't for him. And so when I just...

01:22:23 How much weed were you using?

01:22:27 Oh, man. So I started when I was 16, and by the time I was 17, it was pretty much a daily thing.

01:22:36 Before I quit, when I was 20, I was probably smoking... If I wasn't at work,

01:22:41 because I worked nights, dishwashing, if I wasn't working, any time in between, I was high. I was

01:22:47 smoking over five times a day. I was high...

01:22:51 35 times a day?

01:22:52 As often as I could be. Yeah.

01:22:54 Right. Okay.

01:22:55 At least. Minimum, probably.

01:22:57 Okay. Got it. And so good for you, getting off that. That's your court in psychosis or something,

01:23:04 I don't know. Okay. All right. So, and listen, I appreciate the update. I'm sorry if we spent too

01:23:10 long in the past, but it's usually good to have the old foundation, Doug, before we look at the

01:23:13 future. All right. So let me just look here.

01:23:21 So you say, "Fantasy is reminded for someone else, coping mechanisms, two years been struggling,

01:23:26 undiagnosed chronic bladder issue." And, "How can I best help you in the time that we have?"

01:23:35 Because, you know, the stuff you've been talking about is for me, and so it doesn't really count.

01:23:39 It's good for me to know the history, but how can I best help you with the time that we have?

01:23:48 Well, I think a big thing has been just struggling with my identity. The whole

01:23:56 fantasies in my mind thing is that I wrote in the email that it was me. I've never really,

01:24:04 I guess, felt like, I've never really known how to be myself, I guess. I've always,

01:24:08 maybe except through humor, but I've always sort of-

01:24:12 What do you mean by, "I felt like I was-" Sorry, to interrupt. I apologize,

01:24:16 you just start talking about yourself and I interrupt. What do you mean though by, "Be

01:24:19 yourself?" I've never been quite sure what that means, so I'm happy to have it explained, but I

01:24:25 don't really know what it means. Yeah, absolutely. So I have just,

01:24:30 I have just, since I was maybe nine, I've just gone through, I guess, phases, for lack of a

01:24:41 better word, of sort of, and at this point I'm fighting against it more than I ever have, but

01:24:46 just phases of being influenced by other people rather than doing what I think is right by like-

01:24:53 Sorry, how would you know, sorry, you're unparented, how would you know what was right?

01:24:58 Right, yeah. I mean, it's like me saying, you know, like,

01:25:01 "I'm learning Japanese from other people rather than inventing Japanese on my own."

01:25:07 Right, yeah. That's- I mean, how are you supposed to have integrity without knowledge, right?

01:25:15 It's like, how can you be a good engineer without studying engineering?

01:25:17 "Oh, you know, I'm studying engineering, I don't feel like I'm my own engineer yet." It's like,

01:25:21 well, yeah, of course you're not. Please don't be your own engineer, because you're gonna have

01:25:27 things fall apart, right? So bending the knee to other people is essential. That's not a loss of

01:25:35 identity, that's your only chance of having integrity, isn't it? I mean, you didn't learn

01:25:40 virtue from school, you didn't learn it from home, you didn't learn it from your brothers,

01:25:44 you didn't learn it from your girlfriend, you didn't learn it from drugs, you didn't learn

01:25:47 it from pornography, you didn't learn it from, right, the bad habits, food, right?

01:25:51 So how would you have learned it? You can't invent it on your own, neither can I, nobody can,

01:25:56 right? It's like trying to invent a whole language on your own. So what do you mean to be yourself?

01:26:03 You gotta study stuff.

01:26:04 I just felt like, yeah, but I just felt like I was trying to be other people, like I would see,

01:26:10 like I'd watch movies when I was a kid and I would just pretend to be that person.

01:26:14 Okay, that's called being a kid, right? I was Superman, like I get all that, right? You see

01:26:22 those things, Luke Skywalker, and you pick up a stick and you have a lightsaber, right? So

01:26:28 I'm not sure what you mean by that, this big negative thing.

01:26:32 Well, it wasn't so much negative when I was a child, but when I got older, it sort of

01:26:39 stuck with me, all of that. I didn't really come out of that.

01:26:43 Okay, so what do you mean by that? So what is it now that you feel is interfering with

01:26:48 your identity? And I'm not saying this like you're not right, I just want to make sure I understand.

01:26:54 Um, well, at this point, I've just set, uh, I've just, I don't know, it feels like I've

01:27:02 just come out of it now and I've set these really high standards for myself.

01:27:06 What are you talking about? Come out of the sewer? Your mother? What do you mean? I don't know.

01:27:10 Yeah, I've, I came out of, um, you know, pretending to be other people or acting like other people,

01:27:18 getting, getting influenced by, by everything else, you know, media, movies, all of that.

01:27:24 Okay, so give me a concrete example, if you can, just so I know what you mean, rather than

01:27:28 abstracting. Okay. Um, well, like when I would be alone, I would pretend, I would pretend that I was

01:27:35 somebody important, that I was, you know, famous or that, you know, if I was listening to music,

01:27:40 I would, I would pretend to be the person, you know, playing the music and I would just imagine

01:27:45 myself as that person and I never really felt like I've had my own personality. Yeah, but in a,

01:27:51 in like out loud though, and I would act, and I would act that out in my own time.

01:27:58 Yeah. So like you'd pretend to be a singer or a rock star, right?

01:28:02 Yeah. Okay. So I'm still trying, I'm trying to see the dysfunction here.

01:28:08 I mean, you're not psychotic, you're not waking up thinking I'm Freddie Mercury,

01:28:14 I'm late for live aid, right? But you, I mean, you knew it was fantasy, but you, you were,

01:28:19 you were all playing or fantasizing or daydreaming about being somebody more famous or bigger or

01:28:25 better or more skilled or like better in some way, right? Yeah. And, and, but, uh, and talking to

01:28:31 myself and, you know, fully pretending and acting it out, not just as a child, but when I, when I

01:28:36 was, you know, in my adolescence too, when I was, you know, into adolescence is still a child,

01:28:42 technically. So, so, I mean, you know, when girls get together for sleepovers,

01:28:46 they grab their hair dryers and pretend that they're Taylor Swift, right?

01:28:49 Yeah. Yeah. That's true. So I'm still trying to figure out.

01:28:53 I was doing that up until I was probably like, uh, until I was 22, I was doing that. And so it

01:29:00 was, okay. So give me an example, like, I have an example from 22 of what you would do. And I,

01:29:06 yeah, I'm not skeptical of the, you know, all of this is, I just, I don't know what you mean by it.

01:29:10 So I just want to make sure I understand. Right. So things that I would do is like,

01:29:14 talk to myself as if I was, as if I was somebody else. And so what would that mean?

01:29:20 You're mumbling to yourself on the subway? Like, what do you, what do you mean?

01:29:23 Well, if I'd be driving or if I'd be in the bathroom, I pretend I would be being interviewed

01:29:28 by somebody or I pretend I would be in, you know, like a famous person in these different situations

01:29:33 where I'm, uh, where I'm important and where, you know, I'm, uh, where I'm, where I'm famous.

01:29:40 And that, that would be acted out pretty much like constantly every day, whether I, whenever I had

01:29:45 alone time, really, that would be something I would do. Okay. So you have alone time, you're

01:29:49 walking around your apartment. And so give me an example of who you would pretend to be.

01:29:55 Um, Oh, I would pretend I can't think specifically. No, you can, you're just

01:30:03 embarrassed. Come on. You did this two years ago. You can remember, you said you did it constantly.

01:30:08 You've got to remember someone. Well, sometimes it wasn't a specific person, but maybe I would

01:30:13 see somebody getting interviewed online and I would just act it out as if I were that person,

01:30:18 like, as if I were, um, like a famous actor, I'm trying to think of somebody specifically.

01:30:24 Um, um, like as if I were like walking Phoenix, for example,

01:30:31 like being, like being interviewed. The Joker guy.

01:30:34 Yeah. Like just from an interview, Oh, this is a really cool interview of him. I wish I was like

01:30:40 that constantly doing that with people. Okay. I wish I was like that. And then, so, but

01:30:44 then how would you, uh, how would you act it out? What would happen?

01:30:49 I would, um, I would pretend to be the person interviewing myself and then I would reply

01:30:56 as if I were, you know, the famous person that would, I would do that back and forth.

01:31:01 Okay. So it'd be like, Hey, I'm Jimmy Fallon. I have with me Joaquin Phoenix, uh, who's just

01:31:07 starring in the movie Joker, Joaquin Phoenix, boy, you're skinny and you look terrible in a

01:31:11 pair of tidy whities to tell me how you prepared for the role. Well, thank you for having me on

01:31:15 Jimmy. Well, let me tell you what I did. I got those tidy whities and I lost about 4,000 pounds.

01:31:20 And I turned into a two dimensional flatland creature that I scaled at the camera and

01:31:23 strangled the dwarf. Is it like, I mean, I'm joking of course, but so you would do it out loud.

01:31:29 Yeah. Like out loud, kind of, kind of under my breath to myself. And I would, you know,

01:31:34 I wouldn't use, I wouldn't use other people's names. I would just use, you know, my, my name

01:31:38 is if I were that person or in that person's position. Um, you know, looking in the mirror,

01:31:44 a lot of the time doing that to myself. Um, yeah, the old, uh, you talking to me,

01:31:50 talking to me for a test. So, so did you feel like that was, did you feel like that was crazy

01:31:56 or something or, or what was your thought about that? I'm not saying it was, I'm just curious

01:32:00 what you think about it. I mean, just so you know, like I, I was rehearsing speeches for podcasting

01:32:06 before there was even such a thing as podcasting. Like I didn't come into this just out of nowhere.

01:32:11 Right. I mean, I w I would be in the car and I would practice great speeches having no idea

01:32:16 where on earth I'd ever be able to do them. So anyway, go on. Yeah, I would, um, a lot older.

01:32:22 Yeah. I'm sorry. What was your question? I apologize.

01:32:26 So, no, no, I'm sorry. I asked a question then totally interrupted. It's more, much more on me

01:32:30 than on you. So did you feel like this was like, I'm crazy. I shouldn't be doing this. This is

01:32:38 madness. Or was it just like, I'm using myself. I'm just, you know, fantasy play or whatever.

01:32:43 Um, I did for a long time. I didn't notice it for most of my life. I didn't really notice it. And

01:32:49 when I did, I definitely felt that it was, you didn't notice that you were mumbling under your

01:32:53 breath and pretending to be someone else. Well, I know, I, not that I didn't notice it, but I wasn't

01:32:58 aware, um, that I was doing it, I guess I wasn't really, okay. That's kind of the same thing.

01:33:04 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's fair. But I, I didn't, uh, I didn't ever really think about it. And then

01:33:09 when I did, I knew it was, I felt that it was very crazy. Um, but I just, I can pray to do it.

01:33:14 Um, because I just didn't, because just, you know, it's me, me talking to myself,

01:33:24 me acting out these scenarios. I didn't know why I was doing it and I didn't know, um,

01:33:32 if I was ever going to stop doing it. And I just would kind of, you know, spend a lot of time

01:33:37 doing this, especially when I was on, when I was on drugs and I'd realize, like, sometimes I'd

01:33:41 reflect upon how long I was doing it for some of the things that I would say. And then all of a

01:33:46 sudden I would just stop doing it and walk out of the bathroom and walk out of my room and just go

01:33:50 back to my, my everyday life. And so that kind of- And do you know why, do you know why you were

01:33:54 doing it? From, from what I reflected on it, I thought it was because I'd never got attention

01:34:02 when I was a child. And so I was in my mind sort of simulating me, me getting attention from other

01:34:08 people as if I was- Yeah, you were lonely, right? Right. Yeah. I mean, the drugs isolate you,

01:34:13 the pornography isolates you, the obesity isolates you. Um, sorry, when, remind me when you lost the

01:34:18 weight again? I know your brother was helpful in that, but what age were you? Um, it was,

01:34:23 I was between 20 and 21 years old. So through, from 2020 to 2021, I was shedding off all the,

01:34:30 all the weight. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you were isolated as a child, right? Yeah. You were lonely.

01:34:37 I mean, you said you had some issues with your brother. You had two siblings,

01:34:42 is that right? You have a sister and a brother, right? Yeah. An older sister who's five years

01:34:47 older than me and my brother who's just under two years older than me. And were you and your

01:34:51 brother close at all when you were growing up? I would imagine not with your father as an example,

01:34:54 but maybe. No, um, sometimes we were, but most of the time he would, um, he was,

01:35:01 he was almost like my father, you know, I would be pushed away from, from him. He would push me away

01:35:06 when we were children. He was younger, right? We did become close. No, he's, he's older. He's

01:35:11 older. Okay. All right. Right. Okay. Yeah. So the father, the older brother often imitates the

01:35:15 father and, and, uh, recreates that with the younger brother. Okay. All right. So, uh, and

01:35:22 you said that you've worked, tamped back on that, talk to yourself habit. Is that right?

01:35:26 Yeah. I haven't done that for, for quite some time, but at this point in my mind, I'm just still,

01:35:32 still fighting against a lot of that. Just trying to fighting against, you know, thinking,

01:35:38 thinking for my, trying to think for myself rather, it's just.

01:35:43 Sorry. How would you know how to think for yourself if you don't yet know how to think?

01:35:46 I mean, knowing how to think is a pretty skilled thing. Most of the world can't do it. Most people

01:35:50 can't do it and never will. So that's, I mean, that's pretty, it's like, it's like, I just,

01:35:57 I need to learn how to, I need to play the P I need to play the piano really well. It's like,

01:36:01 okay, well, that's a lot of practice and scales and training and right.

01:36:04 Right. Yeah.

01:36:06 Like you can't just be yourself. You can't just think

01:36:09 because what does it mean to be yourself? Well, you don't want to just be authentic.

01:36:15 The serial killer is authentic. He really wants to kill people.

01:36:18 Right.

01:36:20 You want to be virtuous, right? And that to be virtuous is hard as hell.

01:36:23 Right. To be, I mean, sorry, it's hard as heck. And you know, uh, our good friend,

01:36:31 Jesus himself might, uh, might testify to that as well, that it's not, not a super duper amount

01:36:36 of fun being good in a corrupt and decadent world. Right.

01:36:42 Right. And, um, a big thing that I'm struggling with is that I've said, I've been told that my

01:36:50 brother, this is how he, he sees it. And I think he's right in a lot of the sense, but I've,

01:36:56 I've said like, you know, high standards for myself and I'm expecting that from everybody

01:37:02 that I come across and, and sorry, what are the high standards that you've set for yourself?

01:37:06 Um, just like the, like the, like the politeness that my father imposed upon,

01:37:15 upon us. Like an abusive standard. So that's an abusive standard. What's

01:37:18 a high standard you set for yourself? Um,

01:37:25 I'm not saying you don't have any, please understand. I just, I get, I just want,

01:37:28 I was cute. Right. And say, well, why high standards? It makes me sound like I don't

01:37:31 think you have any, I accept that you do. I just don't know what they are.

01:37:35 And because people say high standards, I don't know what that means. High standards for coming

01:37:39 out, high standards for cooking, high standards for your exercise or, or virtue. I don't know.

01:37:44 I guess just standards in a, in a social sense, like,

01:37:50 I just find, uh, I'm expecting a lot of people like regarding like trying to emphasize with them

01:37:59 or, um, give me my God, you're going to abstract me into distraction. Like, I feel like I'm

01:38:05 vaporizing in your mind. What the hell are you talking about? In practical terms, please God,

01:38:10 just give me something practical. I'm dying in vapor here.

01:38:13 I apologize. It's all right. It's all right. I just have to be emphatic about it.

01:38:19 Yeah. I'm I'm, I have trouble with trying to say what I'm.

01:38:22 No, I just, I don't want the narrative. I just want the facts because the narrative is not

01:38:26 working for you. So if you tell me all the things that aren't working for you, I know we're wasting

01:38:30 time. So I just want to get to the facts. Right. I appreciate that. Um, like one thing that's

01:38:37 happened is I expect people to be, to not talk about me behind my back and to not gossip and to

01:38:42 not, you know, betray me in that sense. And that seems to constantly happen.

01:38:50 Sorry. Sorry. That's your fault though.

01:38:53 Like that's on you. I don't know. Like, why would you have that for other people?

01:38:58 Because if you choose to have people in your life who are going to betray you, that's your fault.

01:39:03 That's yeah. That's what I'm struggling with.

01:39:05 Am I wrong about that?

01:39:06 Because I expect that.

01:39:06 Just don't have people in your life who betray you. And if they, if they betray you,

01:39:11 talk to them about it. You know, the Jesus thing, the Christ thing, you talk to them about it maybe

01:39:14 once, twice. And if they don't admit fault, you dump them. Like who's in your life is your choice,

01:39:20 isn't it?

01:39:20 Yeah, absolutely.

01:39:22 So maybe I'm missing something here, but it's like,

01:39:25 I want people in my life who, who don't betray me. It's like, yeah, I think that's a good thing.

01:39:31 Yeah.

01:39:33 But why would you blame them? You have them in your life.

01:39:38 No, I don't, I don't blame them. Well, I do. I shouldn't say that.

01:39:41 You just said, I want people to not betray me. It's their fault.

01:39:44 Yeah. Yeah. I surround myself with these people and I have high standards of them,

01:39:50 even though I'm going against my instinct and thinking like, oh yeah, this person will be,

01:39:55 this person isn't good to be around.

01:39:58 Sorry. You have high standards for the people in your life,

01:40:01 or in order to be in your life, people have to meet your high standards.

01:40:06 Yeah, that's probably.

01:40:07 Like, you're not just picking random people and trying to turn them into a great singer, right?

01:40:11 You want to pick a good singer and try and turn them into a great singer, right? You just pick

01:40:15 random people and want them to be virtuous. You pick virtuous people and hope they stick to it.

01:40:20 Right. Right. Yeah.

01:40:22 Okay. So what else? Yeah. Your high stand.

01:40:26 Cause you don't have high standards for yourself then saying, well, I have to choose

01:40:30 good and virtuous and trustworthy people, right? You just try and impose these high standards on

01:40:34 others in the same way that your dad imposed these high standards on you.

01:40:37 Yeah, I think that's more accurate to the problem I'm having then because I just,

01:40:44 I, it's like, I'm expecting everybody to act the way that I act basically.

01:40:51 That people should be doing.

01:40:51 Oh no, no, no. Oh my gosh. Please don't. You've got to get off that cross, brother.

01:40:55 You really do have to get off that cross because you're saying, well, you're a wonderful,

01:40:59 virtuous person, right? And other people just aren't meeting your lofty standards. Is that right?

01:41:04 Like you're, you're just so good and virtuous and yet other people are just disappointing you

01:41:10 because they're just not as noble and virtuous as you. Right?

01:41:13 Yeah. It's like, that's what I'm fighting against.

01:41:16 Okay. But no, but if you're noble and virtuous,

01:41:18 then you should have noble and virtuous people around you. And if you don't, the question is,

01:41:24 well, why, why if you're noble and virtuous, why would you want corrupt people around you?

01:41:30 Why would you accept that?

01:41:33 Right.

01:41:33 It's not, it's not virtuous to have corrupt people around you and then feel superior to them. Is it?

01:41:40 No, no, no.

01:41:42 I mean, that's a little pathetic, isn't it?

01:41:44 Yeah. It's completely pathetic. Yeah.

01:41:46 And feeling superior is your dad's gig to some degree, right?

01:41:53 Yeah, absolutely.

01:41:56 Okay. So what are the other standards?

01:41:59 Um,

01:42:00 I mean, I agree with you about having high standards for the people around you,

01:42:07 but you don't just pick random people and then apply those high standards.

01:42:11 Like if you're in a choir, it's great to have other great singers around you,

01:42:14 but you don't just pick random people and then nag them for being bad singers.

01:42:18 Yeah. I think that's what I'm doing is I'm just picking everybody and expecting them to,

01:42:26 to hold to these standards and then.

01:42:30 Well, and you know, I don't know. I mean, how long have you been listening to my show?

01:42:34 Um, not, not, not too long. Not too long.

01:42:39 Okay. So how frank do you want me to be?

01:42:42 No, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be offended at you, at you being frank.

01:42:47 Okay. Listen.

01:42:47 The more frank, the better.

01:42:49 I have a lot of sympathy for what you went through as a child. I really do. Like

01:42:52 absolutely terrible stuff. You're a young man and I have great admiration for where you've gotten to

01:42:57 in life. Like really great. I mean, fantastic job. I mean, you're further ahead in many ways than I

01:43:03 was at your age. So I, you know what I'm about to say, it doesn't detract from that. I just want to

01:43:07 be really clear about my admiration, but, uh, you, you were a drug addict until like two years ago.

01:43:15 Right. Yeah, absolutely.

01:43:18 You were a food addict before that. You've been addicted to pornography.

01:43:22 And you were having, you know, sleazy corrupt sex with a woman you didn't even like

01:43:28 for a year and a half to two years. Right.

01:43:31 Yeah.

01:43:33 And then you tried to get back together with her. Right.

01:43:35 And how long ago did that final breakup happen?

01:43:39 Um, about two years ago now.

01:43:44 Okay. So as far as your resume goes, I think it's important to have some humility about your moral

01:43:53 status. Right. Right. And again, you're not a bad guy. I'm not trying to say that at all.

01:43:59 No, I needed to hear that though. Yeah. I appreciate that.

01:44:03 Look, I mean, you always hear me say, well, I guess you haven't heard the show that much. Like

01:44:06 I make mistakes. I have, I've been studying philosophy and morality and virtue for like 40

01:44:12 years. Right. Pretty good. Pretty good. But you know, there's always new temptations. There's

01:44:17 always new problems. And I mean, as far as Christianity goes, isn't pride a bit of a sin?

01:44:23 I mean, I think it's the sin. If I remember my Lucifer backstory correctly, my Lucifer lore.

01:44:29 Yeah. It's the root of all passions. Absolutely.

01:44:33 Well, it's not the root of all passions. It's the backdrop for all sins. Right.

01:44:36 Yeah. Well, the passions in the sense of...

01:44:40 Well, no, because I think passions for virtue in Jesus are good, right?

01:44:44 Yeah. There's the meaning of, in the Orthodox Church, there's a meaning of

01:44:51 passions as in like, you know, gluttony, lust, avarice, anger, dejection.

01:44:55 The material, essential. Okay.

01:44:58 Yeah. Yeah.

01:44:59 Now what's been going on in your life over the last two years? Because we kind of dropped off,

01:45:04 for my fault, not yours, but we kind of dropped off your narrative with the breakup with the

01:45:08 Rosarito.

01:45:08 Yes. After her breakup, or after the breakup with her, that was a very freeing thing for me because

01:45:19 I felt like I had a clean slate from her. I was ready to start fresh. And then I just slowly

01:45:29 started looking into the truth. And that's how I came to the church. And that's how I

01:45:38 started looking into philosophy a little bit. And I got a better job. I was less anxious about

01:45:47 things. I was a bit more honest with myself and what my situation was regarding my childhood

01:45:56 and things like that. And it's been positive. But since then, I just, yeah, I mean,

01:46:03 one of the walls I was hitting was that, just thinking I'm superior over everybody like my

01:46:09 father was. That was a huge thing for me. And I think that set me back a lot because

01:46:18 one of the things that happened when I started, when I got sober was the people that I was

01:46:25 surrounded with were just, they were all similar to how I was. And so that was a bad influence on

01:46:32 me. And so once I started separating from those people, or before I started separating from them,

01:46:38 I started noticing how these people, and I'm not trying to blame them in this sense,

01:46:44 but just how bad of an influence those people were on me. And-

01:46:50 Oh my gosh.

01:46:51 It was-

01:46:53 Oh, hang on, hang on. Oh my gosh.

01:46:55 Why?

01:46:55 Oh gosh.

01:46:57 All right. When you were into taking drugs, did you ever get drugs for other people?

01:47:06 Did I ever get them for other people?

01:47:11 Yeah. Answer, of course you did.

01:47:15 Yeah, yeah, sure.

01:47:18 I mean, right, you would offer people your drugs or maybe pick up a little extra for others, right?

01:47:24 Yeah.

01:47:26 Okay. Did you offer people drugs?

01:47:29 If I knew that they were drug users, I would, yeah.

01:47:34 What do you mean? How would you know if they're drug users?

01:47:38 Oh, you mean if you'd seen them smoking drugs before?

01:47:41 Yeah, if I'd seen somebody smoking weed before and they were with my friends and I would offer them.

01:47:48 Okay. And so did your girlfriend, your ex-girlfriend, did she smoke drugs or did she use drugs?

01:47:56 Oh, no. No, she didn't.

01:47:59 Okay. And did you ever offer her drugs?

01:48:00 No.

01:48:03 Really? All right.

01:48:06 No, when I was with her, I-

01:48:08 So you were stoned and you were baking up four to five times a day. Did I have that right?

01:48:15 Yeah, not while I was dating her. When I was with her, it was like an occasional thing, on and off.

01:48:21 Oh, okay. So in the year and a half to two years that you were dating her,

01:48:25 you didn't really use drugs much at all?

01:48:26 No, maybe like for a month, maybe. But it wasn't really-

01:48:35 I'm not sure what you mean by-

01:48:36 It was on and off. Well, I guess, yeah, altogether, I guess, like,

01:48:42 maybe, you know, there are times where I'd go to her place where I would be high without her knowing

01:48:49 it. And I did that quite a few times, but I stopped after a little while.

01:48:55 Okay. And how long did you drink for?

01:48:58 Probably a month.

01:49:02 Oh, so you got into alcohol, but it was only for a month, right?

01:49:07 Yeah, that was an on and off thing too, but I was doing it really consistently for about a month.

01:49:13 Okay. And how long were you a heavy marijuana user, for how many years?

01:49:19 About five years.

01:49:22 About five years you were a heavy marijuana user. And are you really going to tell me,

01:49:26 and, you know, maybe it's right, I don't know the scene or anything like that,

01:49:29 are you really going to tell me that you knew for sure every time you got drugs for someone

01:49:34 or offered drugs to someone that they were already a habitual user?

01:49:37 Yeah, I mean, in my friend group, I wasn't really, the people that I was friends with,

01:49:44 we were only, the only bond was that we were all drug users, essentially. Like, I just,

01:49:49 I hung out with that crowd.

01:49:50 Okay, so you didn't do drugs with people you didn't know?

01:49:52 No, no.

01:49:54 Over five years, you never went to a party, you never?

01:49:56 No, yeah.

01:49:57 Sorry?

01:49:58 Yeah, maybe I, maybe I, yeah, maybe in like,

01:50:01 like if I was with my friend and we would drive somewhere, did he do a friend test,

01:50:05 do a friend that he had that I didn't know, but most of the time people had their own,

01:50:12 had their own weed, they had their own drugs, and so there wasn't a lot of…

01:50:16 I'm not trying to say you were a drug dealer, I'm just saying that when you say, like,

01:50:21 you were a heavy drug addict for half a decade, which would have had a corrupting influence on

01:50:28 others as well, right? So, right? Because you would, might have used more than other people,

01:50:34 and that might have been a path for them to follow.

01:50:36 Yeah, that's true. I used more than any of the people that I was around.

01:50:42 Right, so that may have had an effect on increasing

01:50:45 their drug use, you know, like, I mean, if you talk to people who are smokers, they say, well,

01:50:50 you know, if there are people around smoking at the party, you know, like just regular,

01:50:54 not marijuana smokers, although I'm sure that's true with that as well,

01:50:57 but when you talk to smokers, right, then they'll say, well, you know, if there's smoking at the

01:51:03 party, like, I'll have cigarettes, but if there isn't, you know, I'll bum a cigarette or whatever

01:51:07 it is, but if there's not any smoking going on, like, I'm fine with that, right?

01:51:11 Right.

01:51:13 So, it's possible that you contributed to the corruption of others,

01:51:18 but all you're talking about is other people corrupting you.

01:51:26 Yeah, I didn't, yeah, you're right. I just meant, I was trying to say how, like, once I sobered up,

01:51:32 I didn't think I should be around, continue to be around that crowd, but—

01:51:36 No, that's not what you said. You talked about people corrupting you.

01:51:39 Yeah.

01:51:41 That didn't happen, sure, but did you also do it? Absolutely.

01:51:44 Yeah, you're right.

01:51:46 And that's, again, part of the humility thing, right? Which is, you're capable of sin,

01:51:50 I'm capable of sin, and we all have to, if we all, we focus on the people who sin against us,

01:51:57 we end up vain and prideful, right? And we feel like victims, and we have a higher sense of our

01:52:05 own virtues than maybe totally accurate. Whereas if we say, yeah, I mean, people did bad things to

01:52:10 me, and I did bad things to others.

01:52:12 Right.

01:52:14 Yeah, I think that's pretty much spot on as to where I was, I think, at that point.

01:52:20 No, no, not where you were. I mean, where you were then, it's what you were saying now.

01:52:23 Yeah. Yeah, where I am is just being, oh, I did all that, but now I'm better than everybody,

01:52:30 and now I'm better, I'm above that.

01:52:32 That's not going to be—

01:52:34 You're spot on.

01:52:34 Yeah, that's not going to be realistic, because here's the thing, like, I want you to have great

01:52:38 people in your life, right?

01:52:39 Yeah, I appreciate that.

01:52:41 And the way that you get great people in your life is you don't play the victim. Because people

01:52:45 who are high-quality people, they do not like being around victims.

01:52:49 Right.

01:52:51 Heart done by people, people who pretend that they're superior to others, right?

01:52:56 Right, yeah.

01:52:59 I mean, you lied to your girlfriend.

01:53:03 Yeah.

01:53:06 Right? I mean, you pretended to be sober when you were, in fact, high.

01:53:09 Yeah, I lied to my brother about that as well.

01:53:14 Right, and I'm not trying to make you feel like a bad guy, of course not. I'm just saying that,

01:53:18 you know, maybe the giant flag of "I'm perfect and everybody else disappoints me and betrays me"

01:53:24 might not be the most comprehensive statement in the known universe, if that makes sense.

01:53:29 You know, I mean this with great affection, right, because we all do this, but—

01:53:32 No, I'm—yeah.

01:53:33 No, I totally agree, and I appreciate that, because—

01:53:38 You know, hollow, hypocritical self-righteousness, which we all have,

01:53:41 and I'm not, you know, but it's not the most attractive trait in the known universe.

01:53:44 No, and that's probably like the most prominent trait that I've had, you know, as of late,

01:53:51 or it's just been once I came out of that, I just immediately adopted that.

01:53:54 Well, it's one extreme to the other, right, which is often happening. So when you don't have a bond

01:53:59 with your parents as a kid, and in fact, your parents seem to take fairly significant delight

01:54:04 in shredding that bond on a regular basis, but when you don't have a bond with kids,

01:54:08 you tend to swing from one extreme to the other. I mean, we all do, right? I mean,

01:54:11 I didn't have a bond with my parents as a kid, and you know, Lord knows I've had my

01:54:16 own share of extremes here and there. So it just tends to go from one extreme to the other.

01:54:23 And so going from, you know, being an addict to being the perfect guy that everyone disappoints,

01:54:30 I think that has a lot more to do with not feeling necessarily your identity,

01:54:37 if you're reacting, like you're reacting to your childhood, and now you're reacting

01:54:41 to some of the negative things that you did. And I think if you're in a state of reaction,

01:54:45 it's really tough to feel genuinely yourself, because you're bouncing off history, if that

01:54:51 makes sense.

01:54:51 No, absolutely.

01:54:55 And what's your relationship like with your parents at the moment?

01:54:59 I haven't talked to my dad in probably like, I think he texted me once, like before,

01:55:14 like after the new year, but I'm not really in contact with him at this point. And my mom is,

01:55:21 I don't live with them. I don't live in the same province as them.

01:55:27 And my mom is, at this point, I'm just trying to completely like cut off ties with her and

01:55:35 with my father as well.

01:55:38 Sorry, A, I'm sorry to hear that, but I understand. And B, have you had any conversations

01:55:44 with them? I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, I'm just curious if you've had

01:55:47 conversations with them about what happened in your childhood and things that you have issues

01:55:54 with.

01:55:55 No, it's been really like just a confrontation in general. Like trying to RTR with somebody is

01:56:03 like extremely difficult for me, especially my parents. Like when I was reading real-time

01:56:12 relationships, the part about seeing your mom pop up on the call display and telling her how

01:56:18 you feel like that was terrifying to me, thinking about saying that to my mom. And so any confrontation

01:56:24 about my childhood has been, I haven't had any of that. And it's been very-

01:56:29 And it doesn't sound like that's something you think would go well, right?

01:56:33 No, not at all. I think it would be, my mom would get very emotional, my dad would deny it.

01:56:39 It would be-

01:56:39 She wouldn't get emotional, she'd just get manipulative.

01:56:42 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:56:44 She'd have pretend emotions to control others.

01:56:47 Yes.

01:56:47 Well, I'm really sorry about all of that, of course. That's very tough. That's very

01:56:52 tough. And in general, if you are going through significant family challenges like this, I've

01:56:57 always had a strong recommendation to see a counselor or at least, you're part of a church,

01:57:02 right?

01:57:02 Yeah.

01:57:04 Okay, so maybe talk to, I would certainly talk to a trusted spiritual advisor, priest or a guidance,

01:57:10 a person of spiritual or psychological guidance. I would strongly recommend doing that process.

01:57:17 And when I was going through these kind of family paroxysms, I was definitely in therapy and I've

01:57:21 always recommended that to the people. I'm just putting that out for you as a recommendation,

01:57:26 because it's a tough thing to go through alone.

01:57:30 Yeah, I really appreciate that, Stefan. I mean, I've gone to therapy a few times. At this point,

01:57:36 I'm not sure if the therapist is a good fit for me, but I've noticed it's helped a little bit.

01:57:40 But a priest, maybe a priest. If you have a good priest, he might help a lot.

01:57:43 Definitely.

01:57:45 And how is your brother's relationship with your parents?

01:57:49 He's a defoo. He's been into your content before I have, and he is not in contact with them at all.

01:57:56 And has that given them any pause or any reflection or any, has it slowed them down at all?

01:58:04 No, well, I think my brother could explain everything to my mom and she still wouldn't

01:58:14 get it. My dad, I don't know the extent of what he said to my dad. I think they know deep down,

01:58:22 but they probably just don't want to think about it.

01:58:29 Right. And is there any dating on the horizon for you?

01:58:33 Not at the moment. I've got some ideas of what I want to do for my future, but right now with

01:58:42 the way my health is and with the way the state of my self-knowledge, I'm just trying to get

01:58:46 healthy and to build myself back up again at this point.

01:58:52 Correct. And what, the bladder issue, is it a series of infections? Is it,

01:58:56 I mean, I guess you don't know to some degree.

01:58:59 I didn't put this in the email. This is a big fault on my part, and I apologize for that. But

01:59:07 part of the bladder, I think maybe it could either be from the weight loss, it could be from stress,

01:59:13 but I'm most certain it's from, and I'm sorry I didn't put this in the email, but it was

01:59:21 around 2021, I got a one dose of the vaccine because I was being pushed out of the home

01:59:28 because my sister had a young child and my mom-

01:59:32 Oh, and she thought without the vaccine, her child's life was at risk.

01:59:37 And my brother and I were with my mom, living with my mom, and it was a lot of emotional

01:59:43 manipulation. I just became really nihilistic and just gave in.

01:59:48 Did you not want to take it?

01:59:50 And it didn't even matter. I didn't want to take it. My brother was trying to do everything he

01:59:56 could to steer me in the right direction. I broke down in tears and I just told him,

02:00:01 "I can't do it." And I just totally dissociated and just went and did it. And I'm sure that

02:00:12 could be the cause of it. That to me is most likely, but that was-

02:00:17 And so you took one dose of the, one of the two dose ones?

02:00:21 Yeah, one of the two dose ones, I think it was Moderna. I took a shot of, I got a shot of Moderna.

02:00:28 Did you have any negative effects right away or why didn't you get the second shot?

02:00:33 I didn't get the second shot just because I realized what I did and it didn't even matter.

02:00:41 Once I got the second shot, they were pretty much over the whole thing. They were over the

02:00:46 whole COVID buzz and so it didn't really- It's wild how that all just evaporated, right?

02:00:50 Yeah, and that's what it was. It evaporated.

02:00:52 It's the worst pandemic in human history. It's ceased to exist. It's just wild.

02:00:58 This complete amnesia, it's just, it's mad. I feel like I'm living in this medical madhouse these

02:01:03 days, except of course among the people I know. Yeah, nobody thought of that.

02:01:09 Yeah, it was, that kind of made me, it was just the influence by the emotional manipulation from

02:01:16 my sister, using her kids to manipulate us to our wellbeing.

02:01:22 Well, I'm sure she backs them too and all that, so.

02:01:25 Yeah, I'm not even, I'm sure she did. I'm not even, I haven't talked to her in a long time, but.

02:01:30 Geez, so you got the max for someone you're not even talking to anymore.

02:01:34 Yeah, for essentially no reason other than just because I didn't want to face hardship.

02:01:40 That was the reason.

02:01:41 No, no, no, come on. Be kinder to yourself for that. There was

02:01:44 industrial grade stuff going on there to influence the whole population, so.

02:01:48 Okay. Yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't, of course I have no idea. I mean, I'm not a doctor and all of

02:01:54 that, but is it something that can get resolved? Is there hope for resolution? And how long have

02:02:01 you been dealing with it? I've been dealing with it since 2000, probably early 2022. I think March

02:02:08 of 2022, I've been dealing with this. Wow, two plus years. That's tough. Is it a constant ache

02:02:14 or constant pain or? Yeah, it's the, there's no pain, but it's the constant feeling like your

02:02:19 bladder, like your bladder's full. And at this point it's, I don't want to be gross, but my

02:02:25 urethra feels very weak. It feels like it's getting worse.

02:02:30 Your urethra feels weak, what do you mean?

02:02:32 Well, just like going to the bathroom, it's like I can't fully empty my bladder.

02:02:41 Oh, right.

02:02:41 And it's the feeling of, like I constantly have to pee essentially.

02:02:44 Oh, gosh.

02:02:45 Some days it's worse than others. Some days I'll go once every hour. Some days I won't,

02:02:50 but it'll feel more inflamed.

02:02:52 And then of course you feel nervous and all of that. And

02:02:56 has the medical system or the doctors, have they said anything in particular?

02:03:01 No, it's, when I got ultrasounds done and urine tests, nothing came back out of the ordinary.

02:03:08 When I was living in a different province, I was in line to see a urologist. And by the

02:03:15 time I was able after a four month wait to see the urologist, I wasn't taking it seriously

02:03:20 at the time. And so I was like, "Oh, no," because I was going to get a procedure.

02:03:24 I don't know the medical name, but where they put a camera in your urethra and look at your

02:03:28 bladder wall to see if there's anything wrong with it. I was going to get that done, but I

02:03:32 was like, "Oh, I'm fine. So that'll be, I don't need that." And then it started bothering me again.

02:03:38 And where I'm at now, I'm basically just going to have to go. I was in another waiting list to

02:03:46 see a urologist before I moved. And then once I moved into this province where I am now,

02:03:50 I'm just going to have to go and start from the beginning, get ultrasounds done and able to be

02:03:56 on the wait for a urologist. So it's just a lot of work.

02:03:59 Well, you can always, I mean, I know it can be costly, but you can always get to the States.

02:04:02 Yeah, that's true. I never really thought about that.

02:04:08 No, I mean, there are people who facilitate this for you. I only know this because I had

02:04:12 to basically flee the Canadian healthcare system when I had a tumour and go to the States.

02:04:18 And so there's places, you just call them up and say, "Listen, I need this, that and the other."

02:04:21 And you can just look it up, just do a search and say, "Canadian seeking healthcare US." There

02:04:28 are places that will hook you up with the right people and make sure it all works out well.

02:04:32 Again, I mean, whether you can or can't financially, that's another matter, but

02:04:38 it's certainly worth looking into, I would suggest.

02:04:39 Yeah, no, that's a huge help. I really appreciate that. I didn't know that that was as possible.

02:04:47 Yeah, yeah. I was not too certain about it until I was just like, "My God,

02:04:50 this place is going to get me killed." Not that that's you, you got a bladder thing,

02:04:55 I had a giant tumour, so it was a bit of a different situation. But yeah,

02:04:58 you're not necessarily trapped into just waiting.

02:05:00 Yeah, that's good to know. That's good to know for sure.

02:05:05 All right. So, okay, I mean, we're sort of getting to the end, and I certainly do appreciate all the

02:05:10 information. Is there anything else that I can help you with as we sort of wind things down?

02:05:16 No, I think you told me a lot of things that I needed to hear and that I wouldn't have

02:05:24 come to these conclusions. There's no way I would have come to these conclusions on my own.

02:05:33 I have a lot to reflect upon. I can't tell you how grateful I am for this.

02:05:39 This really means a lot to me, Stephan. I really appreciate this.

02:05:44 Oh, brother, you're totally welcome. It's my absolute pleasure and my admiration for

02:05:48 where you are in life, given your origin story and your empirical history. I won't say it's a

02:05:55 miracle because that makes it sound half impossible and doesn't give you enough credit.

02:05:58 Right.

02:06:00 Good for you. Please pass along my best wishes to your brother for the work that he's doing.

02:06:03 I mean, you guys are really, you're killing it out there in terms of progress and absolutely

02:06:10 guaranteed you're not going to be like your father to your kids. And that's, in one generation,

02:06:15 to make that kind of progress is just fantastic. I can't tell you how thrilled I am at what you

02:06:20 guys are doing and how much in almost awe, but definitely admiration I am for what you guys

02:06:25 are up to. It's a beautiful thing to see and fantastic, fantastic stuff. And I'm really glad

02:06:30 that Christianity is clicking well for you because that can be a great source of strength. But yeah,

02:06:36 don't worry about not feeling who you are. I mean, not feeling authentic. The thing that matters,

02:06:41 this is the last thing I'll say, the thing that matters in my humble opinion, and it's very

02:06:45 humble, so I don't know if this is going to work for you, but the thing that matters is not to be

02:06:50 yourself, because I'm not really sure what that means, but to be good.

02:06:52 Okay.

02:06:54 Right. Authenticity is a circle. It's like a snake eating its own tail.

02:06:59 Right? I am what I feel is a lot to do with what people call authenticity or being yourself. I

02:07:08 don't care about being yourself. And by the way, neither does Jesus. What does Jesus care about

02:07:12 you being good? And being good often means not feeling like yourself, right? You like to eat.

02:07:20 Right.

02:07:20 When you stopped eating as much, did you feel like yourself?

02:07:23 Yeah, not in a technical sense.

02:07:27 No, because you like to eat.

02:07:29 I was eating, yeah.

02:07:30 Yeah, you like to smoke marijuana. When you stopped smoking marijuana, did you feel like

02:07:34 yourself? When you quit porn, did you feel like yourself? No, of course you didn't. You were

02:07:37 actually going against what you wanted. You were going against what yourself was used to, right?

02:07:43 Right.

02:07:43 So what matters is to be good. This authenticity stuff is demonic. I mean,

02:07:47 I don't want to get overly strong, but it's straight up satanic. It is. Do what

02:07:50 they will, though that harm no other. So it's hedonistic, this indulgence of the self, and I

02:07:56 just want to be myself. And like this, it's a be yourself, no matter what they say is a song.

02:08:00 It's just, no, I don't want to be myself, whatever that is, because yourself is the past,

02:08:07 and virtue is the future. Right? Yourself is your habits and your emotional preferences, usually

02:08:12 baked in pretty early on in your life, either through trauma or nature or whatever, right?

02:08:16 And there's nothing wrong with your instincts and your feelings, but

02:08:18 virtualizing the present habits are chains from the past. And so be yourself or be authentic or

02:08:26 be who you are. I don't care about, I don't personally care about any of that stuff.

02:08:30 What I care about is being honest, not bearing false witness and trying to be as virtuous as

02:08:37 possible and spread as much virtue as possible with compassion and some strength and some

02:08:42 standards and all the things that I have with myself and I try to have with others as well.

02:08:46 So, to hell with authenticity, and literally to hell. You go to hell with authenticity,

02:08:51 but you get to heaven through virtue, and that's what I would recommend.

02:08:54 - Right. Yeah, that's, wow. Yeah, I mean, that's like, you said everything I needed to hear,

02:09:02 essentially. I mean, that's, yeah.

02:09:03 - Beautiful. Well, then I'll quit while I'm ahead, and I really do thank you for the conversation.

02:09:07 I really do appreciate it, and I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going with you.

02:09:10 - I absolutely will, Stefan. Thank you again so much. Thank you.

02:09:15 - You're welcome, my friend. Take care. Bye-bye.

02:09:17 - You as well. Bye.

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