When to Fight a Philosopher! Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

The caller shares updates on personal life, including relationship progress, therapy, finances, and career and romance concerns. The caller discusses struggles with bisexuality, forming connections, and recent dating experiences, focusing on communication and relationship perspectives. They explore family dynamics, past traumas, and childhood wounds' impact on relationships. Stefan guides the caller on trust, vulnerability, and communication skills for healthier relationships and personal growth. The conversation concludes with well-wishes and gratitude for honest reflection and growth opportunities.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00I'll just start then.

00:00:01We did the call in September of 21, Society Sides with Abusers, and much has happened

00:00:07since then.

00:00:09In many ways, life has improved.

00:00:12The topics we spoke about, such as my relationship with my brother, my weed addiction, and my

00:00:18academic and professional prospects have improved.

00:00:22And most importantly, I did a year in therapy and made some significant progress and gained

00:00:27a greater understanding of myself.

00:00:31I have also been doing well financially, as I have been able to invest in a year of private

00:00:38high-quality therapy, as well as having a savings pot of approximately £6,000.

00:00:45And I'm using that as a deposit to get a mortgage on a flat.

00:00:49There are two things that trouble me, however, that is what I would like to discuss with

00:00:52you.

00:00:53The first thing is my future career path.

00:00:57I have a law degree, and I'm about to start the final stage of qualifying as a solicitor.

00:01:02I am worried about my first choice of field, criminal law, specifically prosecution, and

00:01:07whether it is moral, realistic, and desirable.

00:01:12Secondly, my romantic life has been far from ideal.

00:01:18I am bisexual and have had a string of one-night stands and short relationships, four women

00:01:24and eight guys, but when I look at my future, I wonder whether if I will be able to achieve

00:01:30marriage and a family, especially since there are some cultural, religious, and racial considerations

00:01:37that make the UK not so optimal for me when it comes to dating and marriage.

00:01:43Would it otherwise, I look ahead and see the potential to be an upper-middle-class prosecutor

00:01:47in the UK with a happy family, but then I look ahead and see a future in which I abandon

00:01:53this plan, don't meet the love of my life, and end up professionally and romantically

00:01:59lost, stuck in my soul-crushing nine-to-five working in finance with no partner and no

00:02:05kids in my forties.

00:02:08I'm also an agriculturalist.

00:02:09I have several allotments that I use to grow vegetables for myself and for selling to local

00:02:14businesses, and I have been able to modestly supplement my income.

00:02:19It is this that I would like to do for the rest of my life, and it is the one thing I

00:02:23would happily do for free, as I love working the land and growing vegetables.

00:02:28My father was also a farmer, and he failed at running a farm, so he had to leave Egypt

00:02:32to go to Eastern Europe for a new start.

00:02:35The reason his failure and fleeing from Egypt are stuck in my mind is because he died on

00:02:40the 6th of March this year, and he died alone, and miserable, with no family, no friends,

00:02:46and not a penny to his name.

00:02:49Despite being exceptionally good at it, I wonder if my gravitation towards agriculture

00:02:54is me repeating a generational cycle that will end the same way.

00:02:59Since our initial call, I have been in one two-month long relationship that ended badly,

00:03:04and it was my fault, and as a result, have been unable to live it down, and I am tortured

00:03:10daily by the thought of what could have been.

00:03:13I feel like there is a sword hanging over my head, that I will do nothing and become

00:03:19nothing.

00:03:21Sometimes my chest feels tight, and I get a real sense of anxiety and impending doom

00:03:26when I think of my life three years from now, despite the fact that I have a three-year

00:03:30plan which is realistically achievable, ambitious, and positive for myself and my community.

00:03:37Would you be able to help someone who feels lost and scared, and is unsure what to do

00:03:42about it?

00:03:44We did discuss my relationship with my parents in the last call, and just to confirm, I am

00:03:49still not in contact with my mother, and have not been since March of 21.

00:03:55She has since tried to re-establish contact, and I have refused because of the violent,

00:04:01verbally abusive, and neglectful nature of my childhood, and her refusal to make any

00:04:06form of restitution.

00:04:09Please let me know if you need any additional context or information, and I hope we are

00:04:13able to have another equally productive call.

00:04:17Thank you.

00:04:18I appreciate the message, and congratulations, of course, on progress.

00:04:22Good, good.

00:04:23I mean, I'm thrilled to hear that.

00:04:26Is the major issue, I mean, the solicitor staff, the lawyer staff, and the dating staff,

00:04:32is that the major stuff?

00:04:33Yeah.

00:04:35Yeah, those are the main two.

00:04:37It's only work and love.

00:04:38What do they matter?

00:04:39Of course, in DeFroy, that's the only thing that matters, but, all right, no, I get it.

00:04:43I get it.

00:04:44Okay.

00:04:45Now, did we talk about your dating preferences in the last show?

00:04:48No, it didn't come up.

00:04:50It didn't come up.

00:04:51All right.

00:04:52It did very, very briefly.

00:04:54I didn't want to.

00:04:55Which do you want to focus on first, work or love?

00:04:58Work, because we're about an hour into a call, so.

00:05:02You want to focus on work more, or love?

00:05:05No, love, because that's more important.

00:05:07I can make money anyway, but love is love.

00:05:10Okay.

00:05:11It matters more, I would say.

00:05:13Wouldn't you agree?

00:05:14Well, if I had to choose one, I'd certainly choose love.

00:05:17All right.

00:05:18So, tell me a little bit about the evolution of the bisexuality and that kind of stuff.

00:05:27Well, I don't really know how it evolved.

00:05:30I just went through my puberty and noticed that I like both, and I'm not turned off by

00:05:40the thought of masculine company, but I'm equally not turned off by the thought of feminine

00:05:45company.

00:05:46So, therefore, it's a conventional label one would slap on such a state of affairs would

00:05:51be bisexual.

00:05:52Even though I don't like the label, I have been very promiscuous.

00:05:59I have not achieved what I would hope to achieve.

00:06:04Since our last call, the body count has not increased drastically.

00:06:09It was 10 when you and I spoke.

00:06:11It's 12 now, so that's two in three years.

00:06:15Both of them short term, but it's certainly not as bad as it was in the past, but obviously

00:06:21there is a lot of progress to make.

00:06:24Okay.

00:06:25So, yeah, so you've only slept with two people in the last three years?

00:06:29Yeah.

00:06:30Okay.

00:06:31I mean, I think for bisexuality, that's pretty much celibate, isn't it?

00:06:38To be honest, when it comes to the gay side, not always the most sexually restrained community

00:06:45on the planet, right?

00:06:48That's putting it mildly.

00:06:49There's no way to put it non-mildly, so yeah, okay, I get it.

00:06:57And did you have any untoward sexual experiences as a child, inappropriate sexual experiences

00:07:06as a child?

00:07:08No.

00:07:09No, we covered childhood in depth in the last call, and the sexual assault was never a part

00:07:15of it.

00:07:16I anticipated the question, so I did think about it.

00:07:19The most sexual thing, I would say, that happened would be hitting on the behind, whether with

00:07:26a hand or implement, but I was never actually molested or anything.

00:07:32Got it.

00:07:33Okay.

00:07:34It's just sometimes that is a factor.

00:07:36So pair bonding.

00:07:41Pair bonding.

00:07:42Let's talk about these two relationships that you had over the last three years.

00:07:50Do I have that right?

00:07:51Math, right?

00:07:52Yeah.

00:07:53Three years since our last call, right?

00:07:54Yeah, but they're not relationships.

00:07:55They're religious.

00:07:56Okay, so yeah.

00:07:57Tell me about these relationships.

00:07:58What happened?

00:07:59They are not relationships, just a night's entertainment.

00:08:06Oh, I'm so sorry.

00:08:09The two-month was in the prior two, three years?

00:08:14Yes, that was actually ongoing at the time of our previous call.

00:08:19It's since ended, but that was the only serious thing.

00:08:23The rest were just fun.

00:08:25Okay, now, are you looking for a relationship and failing to find it or not looking for

00:08:33a relationship?

00:08:36I would say I'm looking again.

00:08:38I think once I start to expand, you're going to say, well, your actions don't exactly match

00:08:42your words, but I'm not going to try and put words in your mouth.

00:08:45So short of it, yes, I have asked people out since I have asked people out with the intention

00:08:53of seriously taking them on a date and treating them seriously.

00:08:56I was texting back and forth with someone about two weeks ago that didn't end well.

00:09:03I tried, I am out there, trying to put myself out there.

00:09:10So what happened two weeks ago?

00:09:11I've spoken to people, I've been on dating apps.

00:09:13Yeah, what happened two weeks ago?

00:09:14Two weeks ago, I was talking to a guy and we were getting on very well, but I was at

00:09:22work and at the gym and in my garden and in church and very busy, and I didn't respond

00:09:30to his messages in a very timely manner, or I responded with some short emoji reactions

00:09:36and didn't flesh out the conversation.

00:09:41And again, not out of a dislike for the individual.

00:09:43I wouldn't have spoken to him if I didn't like him.

00:09:46It's just, I was a bit short.

00:09:49And because we had been texting for a week, I said, I can't keep texting all day with

00:09:53the phone in my hand.

00:09:54So I kept it short and he canceled and said, well, since you're not interested, screw you.

00:09:59I said, all right, your choice, but I didn't have anything wrong with you until you threw

00:10:04a hissy fit, but whatever, I'm not going to chase you up.

00:10:08A lot of pride there, right, for you?

00:10:12On my end?

00:10:13Yeah.

00:10:14No, I disagree.

00:10:15Your loss, hissy fits, there's a lot of pride there, a lot of screw you stuff, right?

00:10:22I disagree.

00:10:23I was perfectly in good faith and reasonable and ethical and engaging and everything until

00:10:32he decided I had no choice but to say, why should I run after you, especially when I

00:10:43take this?

00:10:44It's a bit of a deal breaker and a red flag.

00:10:47Why should I have a thing with someone that's going to be temperamental whenever he doesn't

00:10:53get attention?

00:10:54But, I mean, you're temperamental in his cancellation, right?

00:11:01Not really.

00:11:02Um, don't carry it away.

00:11:05You want to cancel, cancel.

00:11:06You don't, don't.

00:11:07We hadn't met.

00:11:09So I don't feel I've lost a whole lot.

00:11:12I'm not angry at the guy.

00:11:13I'm not out to get him, but yeah, once you, once you say, you know, since you're not interested,

00:11:19I'm not going to talk to you.

00:11:21What can I do?

00:11:23I wouldn't say I was prideful.

00:11:24I would say I handled that quite well, actually.

00:11:25What can you do?

00:11:26I established some...

00:11:27Hang on.

00:11:28Hang on.

00:11:29Hang on.

00:11:30If, if someone, if you're giving emojis back to someone that doesn't indicate interest,

00:11:35right?

00:11:36Well, it doesn't initially.

00:11:39If they message you and you start reacting with emojis immediately, then obviously not.

00:11:45But if you've been texting all day, every day for multiple days in a row, and you have

00:11:50a job where you shouldn't be on your phone at work, and you're at the gym and you're

00:11:55gardening and you've got your hands in the mud, you can't be expected to be on someone's

00:11:59beck and call all day, every day.

00:12:02I wouldn't say I did anything wrong by reacting with emojis.

00:12:05I would not have taken it personally.

00:12:08If someone's still willing to meet, but they're responding, I apologize for not understanding

00:12:14the subculture.

00:12:16But did you say to him, I can't, I don't have enough time to text, I'm quite busy, but let's

00:12:23meet up.

00:12:24But like, did you explain to him why you were doing brief responses?

00:12:29I didn't flesh out the whole thing, but I did say, yeah, I can't have my phone in my

00:12:32hand all day.

00:12:34And he said it was fine.

00:12:37But apparently it wasn't later on.

00:12:39Okay.

00:12:40So, so you were texting back and forth.

00:12:42How long were you texting back and forth?

00:12:44Four or five days at the very most.

00:12:48Four probably.

00:12:49Okay.

00:12:50And then you were supposed to meet up.

00:12:52And what happened before the meetup that had him canceled?

00:12:59My reactions to his texts, just not engaging enough, apparently.

00:13:06And he said, since you're not interested, let's just forget tomorrow.

00:13:11And I said, okay, forget it.

00:13:14Okay.

00:13:15So you said, how else could I have handled it?

00:13:16There's tons of other ways to handle it.

00:13:18I don't know which one is right, obviously, but there's options, right?

00:13:22Okay.

00:13:23Give me a few.

00:13:24Okay.

00:13:25So one would be, you know, I'm, I'm really sorry.

00:13:28Yeah.

00:13:29I can completely understand.

00:13:30You know, I've, I've been giving you kind of brief responses and I haven't really explained

00:13:33the details, but, you know, I, I do like you and I'm sorry that I was, I was brief.

00:13:38Let's meet up and see if we connect better in person.

00:13:41If you don't mind, I apologize, like whatever, right?

00:13:43You could apologize and say something like that.

00:13:49That's, that's one possibility, right?

00:13:53Yes.

00:13:54Could have been done that way.

00:13:56And did that cross your mind or no?

00:13:58Oh, not really.

00:14:01As soon as he canceled, I just said, this probably isn't meant to be.

00:14:06If it's this stressful before I even meet him, I don't want to chance this.

00:14:11I'm just going to accept him canceling and move on with my life because yeah, if you're

00:14:16canceling over not getting enough attention and imagine what it's going to be like if

00:14:20we're actually, you know, together for six months.

00:14:23Okay.

00:14:24So, so the longest really, sorry, let me understand this.

00:14:27So the longest relationship you've had is two months.

00:14:30Yes.

00:14:32And you, you're in your late twenties, early thirties, 24, 24.

00:14:38Okay.

00:14:39So you're 24 years old.

00:14:40So you've been on the dating market for like eight years or whatever, right?

00:14:44You know, mid, mid late teens, often we sort of start dating or whatever, right?

00:14:47So you've been on the dating market, let's just say for seven or eight years.

00:14:51And the longest relationship you've had is two months and you have no doubt about how

00:14:57you handle things.

00:15:01I mean, you gotta be kidding me, brother.

00:15:03Like no doubt at all.

00:15:04You're absolutely certain you did the right thing.

00:15:06But if you're so good at doing these things, why can't you have a relationship?

00:15:10Well, I didn't generalize the principle though.

00:15:12I never said I was good at handling things.

00:15:15I said, I'm good at handling that one thing.

00:15:17If you read my message back, you'll see that I take full responsibility for how the two

00:15:21months thing ended.

00:15:23And I'll be the first to admit that I really fumbled the bag on that one.

00:15:27I'm not someone who shies away from personal responsibility, but I am someone who will

00:15:31stand up for what he thinks is right.

00:15:33And in this instance, yeah, if someone cancels because you're not sending back and forth

00:15:38texts all day, it's a bit of a red flag.

00:15:40Come on, man.

00:15:41You're, you're, this is not accurate.

00:15:43Again, I, I don't think, I can't imagine that he canceled because you weren't sending him

00:15:52texts all day.

00:15:55That's what he said.

00:15:56He said, you clearly don't seem interested, so let's just leave tomorrow.

00:15:59Okay.

00:16:00So that's what he said.

00:16:01Now, you've characterized that as, I'm not available to send texts back and forth all

00:16:08day.

00:16:09Yes.

00:16:10The all day is my bit.

00:16:11Yes.

00:16:12I've added that.

00:16:13Okay.

00:16:14So, so you understand that's, that's adding your twist on what happened.

00:16:17Because I can't imagine, unless he's genuinely insane, in which case, why would you be interested

00:16:21in him in the first place?

00:16:22knows that other people have lives and that there'll be times where there's not much,

00:16:27there's a gap between sending a message and getting a response, right?

00:16:31Or, you know, there are times when if he texts you in the middle of a work day, that you're

00:16:36busy and you're, you're going to have to be brief.

00:16:38And then, you know, later you can say, I'm sorry, I was brief earlier, I was stuck in

00:16:41a meeting or, you know, so, so is it the case that he expected you to spend all day texting

00:16:48with him?

00:16:49Well, no, he didn't communicate that.

00:16:52So it would be unreasonable to assume it exists.

00:16:55Okay.

00:16:56So when you characterize it, and it may sound nitpicky, but I think it's important.

00:17:00So when you characterize it as, well, I just wasn't available to send texts back with him

00:17:05all day, that was not his expectation.

00:17:08And that's not why he canceled because, because you weren't texting with him all day, every

00:17:11day.

00:17:12Yes, that would be fair to say that the all day bit is my own addition.

00:17:18So why, what were the, what were the, what were the interactions that caused him to feel

00:17:23that you weren't interested?

00:17:27Him sending a message around, usually something complimentary, like, it'll be nice to meet

00:17:33you.

00:17:34You look good in this picture.

00:17:35You know, it's nice that you have this hobby, this interest.

00:17:39And I would just see the message and give a quick emoji, a thumbs up or a heart and

00:17:43get back to work or get back to the gym or the garden or whatever.

00:17:48And did you provide him any complimentary texts or longer texts after he'd sent you

00:17:53the stuff that you just emojied?

00:17:55Yes, I did follow up several times.

00:17:57Yes, there were times where I got home from the gym and texted him first after leaving

00:18:01him on an emoji.

00:18:02Yes, there were.

00:18:03Okay.

00:18:04And so what was the interaction?

00:18:06Do you think, well, I guess you would have a record of it.

00:18:08What was the interaction wherein he said, it doesn't seem like you're interested.

00:18:13Let's not bother meeting up.

00:18:15What was the interaction that occurred before that, that you think had him cancel?

00:18:21I reacted to something he said with an emoji, but I don't remember what I said, what he

00:18:25said or what I reacted was something he said, and I thumbs it up.

00:18:30And a few minutes later he texts and says, well, you're not interested.

00:18:34Okay.

00:18:36And had you had a lot of interactions with the emoji responses before, or had you been

00:18:44texting him before that?

00:18:49Mostly texting.

00:18:50The emojis became more and more towards the end.

00:18:54Okay, so he's giving you compliments, trying to engage, and to some degree you're giving

00:19:00him emojis back, right?

00:19:02I mean, not obviously, not a hundred percent, but more than he is, right?

00:19:07Yes.

00:19:08Okay.

00:19:09Now, I mean, I don't agree with his volatility, of course, right?

00:19:12But you could understand why somebody might feel that you're less interested.

00:19:17Yes, absolutely.

00:19:19And not only would I understand him feeling it from a distant empathy level, but I've

00:19:24also been in those shoes where you're texting someone, usually a woman, and she responds

00:19:29with emojis and you say, okay, I'll move on because she's not interested.

00:19:33So I've been in his shoes.

00:19:34So yes, I understand.

00:19:36Now if you were getting emojis back from a woman, and then you decided to move on, and

00:19:44then she said, I'm so sorry, I've just been emojiing, X, Y, and Z happened, I really would

00:19:49like to meet.

00:19:50And would you have appreciated a message like that?

00:19:54Absolutely.

00:19:55So you understand why I'm asking this, right?

00:20:00Yes, I do.

00:20:01I didn't expect to be called out so early in the call.

00:20:04I was hoping it would wait till later.

00:20:06But yes, you have.

00:20:07Well, that's why I said there's a pride element here, right?

00:20:08Which is this guy gets upset a bit because he feels like you're not responding.

00:20:13And listen, even if you don't want to meet up with the guy, you can say, like, even if

00:20:17you say, you were to say to yourself, look, he's too volatile, he's too reactive and all,

00:20:21he's too emotional.

00:20:22Then you can at least say, like, I'm really sorry, you know, it wasn't a matter of not

00:20:27being interested, just X, Y, and Z or whatever, right?

00:20:30But yeah, we, I think in general, I mean, this is a basic, you know, ethics thing, right?

00:20:34I mean, not that you're an unethical person or anything, but, you know, we try to provide

00:20:38to other people what we would appreciate ourselves.

00:20:40Yes, I agree.

00:20:43So that is one thing we should do.

00:20:46Right.

00:20:47Yeah.

00:20:48So, I mean, that's, that's why I sort of pointed out that there's a kind of like, he gets upset

00:20:51and feels hurt and then you just like, you just kick him to the curb and drive on, right?

00:20:55As opposed to, you know, you obviously like this guy, right?

00:20:57I mean, you were texting back and forth for a couple of days.

00:21:00Yeah.

00:21:01I did like him.

00:21:02So, so then, like, the moment he's upset, you're like, get lost, too bad, move on, kick

00:21:08to the curb kind of thing, right?

00:21:10Now, if, if the moment that somebody else gets upset in a relationship, you kick him

00:21:15to the curb, you can't have a relationship.

00:21:17I mean, that's just a basic fact because people are going to get upset in relationships, obviously,

00:21:23right?

00:21:24Yes.

00:21:26So if you say, well, the moment someone's upset, I just kick him to the curb and move

00:21:30on and to hell with them and screw them and, right?

00:21:32I'm not interested.

00:21:33And they, they have insane requests.

00:21:35Like if you make up all of this stuff and his, his request wasn't insane, right?

00:21:39Because you've had that same request yourself and you're not insane.

00:21:42Now maybe it was a little needy, we can say, but you know, whatever, right?

00:21:45So if you want to have a relationship, you can't just kick people to the curb if they

00:21:50get upset.

00:21:51Now, did he handle it super well?

00:21:53No, I don't think so.

00:21:54Did you handle it super well?

00:21:55I don't think so.

00:21:57But the price of being in a relationship is you can't just write people off the moment

00:22:01they bother you.

00:22:02You're right.

00:22:03So, I mean, that's sort of my, my first question.

00:22:12My second question is you say that you want to get married and have children, right?

00:22:19Isn't that going to be a little tricky dating a man?

00:22:23Eh, possibly, but I'm sorry, possibly, well, there, I do live in a Western country that

00:22:32I've stated, so it's possible to have kids through other means, surrogacies and adoption.

00:22:38Don't you want your own kids?

00:22:41I would like to have my own kids, but the priority is having them.

00:22:47If they could be my own, the traditional way through a woman, great.

00:22:52But if not, and I was to run into the perfect male partner that I thought I couldn't live

00:22:58without, then I obviously wouldn't let the practical infrastructural difficulties get

00:23:04in my way.

00:23:05But wouldn't it be, I mean, in terms of breastfeeding and stuff like that, could we not consider

00:23:09it mildly advantageous to the child to have a biological mother?

00:23:15Not just mildly advantageous, stupendously advantageous, but what can I do if I'm bisexual

00:23:23and I run into a perfect partner, I can't, I couldn't bring myself to just exclude half

00:23:32the dating market because they don't have tits.

00:23:34That's not what I'm wired for.

00:23:41It would be for the best to the child, though, you just said it would be stupendously advantageous

00:23:45to the child, right?

00:23:47Yes.

00:23:48So if you were to act in ways that according to your metrics would be stupendously better

00:23:54for the child, wouldn't that be then what you would do in terms of approaching a partner?

00:24:00As you'd say, well, I'm going to configure things not for what's best for me, but what's

00:24:06best for my children.

00:24:08Yes, but there are other ways to do breastfeeding.

00:24:14There are other ways to have babies in general.

00:24:18There are wet nurses, there are lesbian couples, there are...

00:24:22Bro, bro, come on, let's not waste time here.

00:24:24You said it was stupendously advantageous.

00:24:26Did I say that there were no alternatives?

00:24:27No, you did not.

00:24:29You said, listen, you said, come on, let's not waste time.

00:24:32You said it was stupendously advantageous to your child to have a biological mother,

00:24:36right?

00:24:37Yes.

00:24:38Okay, so then that would make dating a woman a much higher priority for what's best for

00:24:43your children, right?

00:24:44Yes.

00:24:45Okay, so that's all I'm saying.

00:24:48But you just said about me, me and I and the perfect partner for me and this, that and

00:24:52the other, right?

00:24:53Well, at that point, at this point, finding someone is the consideration.

00:25:00Now, yeah, if I had to paint my perfect world situation, yes, a woman would be the person

00:25:08I ended up with forever.

00:25:09But when you run into someone and you know it's right, I don't want to sit here and say

00:25:15no man.

00:25:16I don't want to have a no man policy for the next 60 years of my life because...

00:25:20Well, you're going to have to if you get married, aren't you?

00:25:23If you get married to a woman, aren't you going to have to have a no man or you can

00:25:26have an open marriage?

00:25:27Or what's the plan?

00:25:28No, no, no.

00:25:29Never an open marriage.

00:25:30Never.

00:25:31That's...

00:25:32Okay, so you're willing to have a no man policy and no other woman policy if you get married

00:25:36to a woman, right?

00:25:38And I'm also willing to have a no woman policy if I were to get married to a man, because

00:25:42you need to understand the wiring in my head around men and women is the same.

00:25:46I see them as potential mates or not potential mates.

00:25:50There's no distinction in my head.

00:25:53They're not equal in terms of motherhood, by your standard, right?

00:25:58Okay, so you don't have equal wiring if you take into account what's best for your children

00:26:03by what you say, right?

00:26:05Yes.

00:26:06Okay.

00:26:07Just wanted to check that because, you know, the purpose of sexuality is the having and

00:26:09raising of children, not getting your rocks off, right?

00:26:14Yes.

00:26:15And the failure to realize that may be why we are having this conversation.

00:26:18I mean, listen, if you want to just go and have sex, get your rocks off and then okay,

00:26:23whatever, right?

00:26:24But if you're talking about, you know, you said it's stupendously better for your children,

00:26:27right?

00:26:28I'm just going off your metric.

00:26:29Then men and women are not equal in terms of what's best for your children.

00:26:33Yes, that is true.

00:26:36Would you recommend a no-man policy?

00:26:40Would you recommend a no-man policy?

00:26:42Well, I'm not trying to recommend anything.

00:26:44I'm just going by what you say.

00:26:46If you say that you want to have children and you want to do what's best for your children

00:26:50and having a woman is stupendously better for your children, having a female mother

00:26:55is stupendously better for your children, then it's not what I'm telling you to do.

00:26:58It's what your own values are telling you to do, if I understand them correctly.

00:27:04You're right.

00:27:05Yes.

00:27:06Now, you say, if I meet the perfect man, right?

00:27:11So is it your belief that there is a perfect person out there with whom things are going

00:27:19to be easy and great?

00:27:23I don't believe in the concept of a soulmate, that there's one person destined for you,

00:27:27but I do believe in the, yes, fundamentally, when you say perfect, you mean easy, where

00:27:34I don't have to stress, where the relationship is not work, but instead alleviates some of

00:27:40the stresses and tensions that come with the rest of the work in life.

00:27:45So it's not that you're deficient or prideful or volatile in your relationship skills, it's

00:27:51that you haven't met the person who fits, wherein you won't have any problems, really,

00:27:57with the relationship.

00:27:58You just have to have the right jigsaw piece puzzle that fits with you and things are going

00:28:02to be great.

00:28:05I have never said that.

00:28:06I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm trying to understand you, I feel like we're

00:28:11in court here.

00:28:12Right?

00:28:13So you said that if I meet the right person, it's going to be easy.

00:28:17That's what was my understanding.

00:28:19Yes.

00:28:20Okay, so when I repeat back to you that you just need to fight, it's not a lack of relationship

00:28:24skills or volatility or pride on your part, it's just that you haven't met the right person,

00:28:29I am repeating back to you what you said.

00:28:31To say that with a development of my relationship skills and an acknowledgement and an improvement

00:28:38around my flaws, I can have a relationship that is easy, but I have never discounted

00:28:45or disagreed with any of what you're saying about my personal flaws, and they are abundant

00:28:51and I would love to spend time dissecting them, because I do believe they are the main

00:28:56cause as to why I'm not happy in a long-term relationship right now.

00:29:01I've never said that society is to blame or others are to blame.

00:29:04I accept fully that I've made stupid decisions and I have displayed some very negative traits.

00:29:14It's just I would also say that if those are addressed and overcome, there will be an easy

00:29:20relationship out there.

00:29:22But you and I are having this rather aggressive and fractious conversation a year after you've

00:29:28been in therapy or after you've been in therapy for a year working on your relationship flaws,

00:29:33right?

00:29:34Because I mean, you and I are having a relationship at the moment, right?

00:29:37Yes.

00:29:38I mean, and how do you think my experience of this relationship is in the time that we've

00:29:44been talking?

00:29:47Maybe you felt I have not shown enough good faith and I have maybe taken what you say

00:29:52is accusation instead of opportunity?

00:29:57Yeah, I'm trying to understand what the issues are and I'm getting a lot of combat and reframing

00:30:05and falsification of what I'm saying, just from my experience, right?

00:30:08It's not him to huge criticism, I'm just sort of telling you my experience.

00:30:13So in that case, allow me to clarify that I don't think that was appropriate of me and

00:30:24I'll move forward in good faith.

00:30:26Yeah, no, I mean, I'm not giving you, I mean, I want you to be honest about what you think

00:30:30and feel, so I'm not giving you any sort of big criticism here.

00:30:33But I am saying that if this is after a year, I mean, we talked a couple of years ago and

00:30:38you've done a year of therapy and you're still kind of prideful and punchy and kind of aggressive

00:30:44and you do reframe stuff, right?

00:30:46So I repeat back to you what you say and you say, well, I never said that.

00:30:49And then I said, well, here's what you said.

00:30:50Okay, I did.

00:30:51You know, it's just kind of punchy, right?

00:30:54And I appreciate this and I appreciate your punchy nature.

00:30:57I'm a little punchy myself, so I'm not going to make some big criticism on your punchy

00:31:02nature, but it does make it tricky to communicate.

00:31:05I mean, I can see why the legal field might be quite appealing to you because it's a little

00:31:09bit in your nature to hair split and to be kind of punchy, right?

00:31:12And that's very helpful in a lawyer a lot of times.

00:31:15Yeah, you're right, I have a tendency to be combative and to pick up on things that, you

00:31:23know, I maybe read into a bit too much or reframe what others have said or what others

00:31:29interpretation or repeating of what I have said.

00:31:31And when you were talking about the texting guy, basically you said, I did everything

00:31:36perfectly and he did everything wrong, right?

00:31:39I mean, you really said that.

00:31:40I mean, that wasn't even that's not even a paraphrase.

00:31:42Like I handled it perfectly and he did everything wrong.

00:31:45And then, you know, we talked about it a little bit.

00:31:46And, you know, I think I don't think he handled it perfectly.

00:31:50And I think there's things you could have done that could have been slightly better.

00:31:52It wasn't any sort of big thing, right?

00:31:55But that's kind of a change from your initial position that is quite rapid and quite unremarked

00:32:05upon.

00:32:06Right.

00:32:07Well, yes, the change, I would say, is spurred on by your wise highlighting of my inconsistencies

00:32:17and flaws.

00:32:21And I accept that and I'm willing to take it on the chin and move forward if we can

00:32:28in a productive way.

00:32:30Right.

00:32:32And has your therapist talked to you about you reframing things so that you're right

00:32:36and the other person is wrong?

00:32:38Is that something that you guys have talked about?

00:32:39And listen, you don't have to talk about anything.

00:32:41Therapy is very private, so I don't want to lift the veil on anything you want to keep

00:32:45private.

00:32:46I'm curious if that's come up, because if it has, then I'll move on, because that's

00:32:49something your therapist is already working on.

00:32:50And if it's not, maybe we could spend a bit more time on it.

00:32:54What we worked on was the fight or flight response, the tendency to take things in a

00:33:00negative way.

00:33:01And if someone's laughing, they're laughing about me.

00:33:03If someone's joking, they're joking about me.

00:33:05And if someone's knocking on my door, it's going to be the murderer or police to drag

00:33:11me off.

00:33:12Nothing's ever positive.

00:33:13Nothing's ever happy.

00:33:14Always thinking the worst.

00:33:15Part of that is obviously what you've highlighted about the punchiness and the pickiness and

00:33:19the pridefulness.

00:33:21And part of it was, you know, greater than that.

00:33:25But yes, fight or flight is fundamentally what a lot of the therapy was spent on.

00:33:30Right.

00:33:31Because, I mean, the guy you were texting with, he really liked you, right?

00:33:36From what I understand, yeah.

00:33:37Well, I mean, he was very clear about that.

00:33:39I mean, he complimented you.

00:33:41He wanted to text you with you a lot.

00:33:43And he really, he put his heart on the line, in a way, in terms of saying how much he liked

00:33:49you and how impressive you were to him.

00:33:52Right?

00:33:53Yes.

00:33:54And so, there's ways of framing things in relationships.

00:33:57Right?

00:33:58And we'll call this a relationship, because it certainly was, and there was hope in it.

00:34:01Right?

00:34:02So, if somebody says, look, I mean, you're not giving me much response, so clearly you're

00:34:06not that interested, so let's not waste each other's time, or whatever he said about not

00:34:11meeting up.

00:34:13Mm-hmm.

00:34:14Now, you can say, it matters what you say in your mind about that.

00:34:18Right?

00:34:19Because what you say in your mind is going to be depending, is going to condition your

00:34:22response.

00:34:23So, if what you say in your mind is, oh, so he's so desperate and needy that because I'm

00:34:27not available to text with him 24-7, he's just going to have a hissy fit and be a little

00:34:33bitch about it.

00:34:34Right?

00:34:35Then you're going to condition your response.

00:34:37Right?

00:34:38Yes.

00:34:39And that's sort of, to some degree, how you framed it.

00:34:42Now, of course, if you say, wow, this guy really likes me, and he really put his heart

00:34:46out there.

00:34:47Obviously, he's feeling pretty rejected and vulnerable, and he's afraid that he's going

00:34:52to get involved with someone who's not that interested in him.

00:34:55Like, obviously, he's somebody with a great capacity for attachment, and he's concerned

00:34:58about the lack of reciprocity, and maybe he's been burned in the past, and so on.

00:35:03So, maybe I don't meet him.

00:35:05Maybe I do, but at least I can address his concerns.

00:35:12Right?

00:35:13Now, so whichever way you frame it is going to be how you respond, and I guess, are you

00:35:21aware of how you frame things and how that is going to condition your response?

00:35:27Well, I've certainly had an inkling that my reaction to people's, you know, opening themselves

00:35:38up to me in the past has not always been the most wise or productive, and I'll accept that

00:35:45in this instance, it was the same, yes, by making it out to be the one that was doing

00:35:51everything wrong.

00:35:52But it did inevitably condition my response into one of negativity, where it could have

00:35:57been something more productive, something more open-hearted, I'll admit.

00:36:02Right.

00:36:03No, that's it.

00:36:04Now, your first day of law school, right?

00:36:08Yes.

00:36:09So, you didn't really have much experience in law, and you didn't really know, I mean,

00:36:12you've seen a couple of shows, I suppose, and all that sort of stuff, but your first

00:36:16day of law school, can you imagine ferociously arguing with a professor who has 40 years

00:36:22experience in law?

00:36:25Well, none of them do, because we get all the time.

00:36:31I understand your argument, just some light-hearted humor, but yes, fundamentally, yes, when you

00:36:36go in, you go in with an attitude to learn and not to preach, yes.

00:36:39Right.

00:36:40And so, would you consider me somebody who has some, you know, success in relationships

00:36:48and in, you know, some self-honesty and so on, right?

00:36:51Like, I mean, I came from a two-divorced, mentally ill household, and I have, you know,

00:36:56been happily married for like 21 years or whatever, right?

00:36:59I have some, and I've written entire books on relationships, and I've counseled thousands

00:37:03of people or given them feedback on relationships, which has been fairly successful.

00:37:07So I think, you know, and I've been 40 years in philosophy, right?

00:37:14So when I'm sort of asking questions or trying to understand something, and you're kind of

00:37:21half-ferociously arguing with me and telling me I'm wrong, then to some degree, it's a

00:37:27little bit like if there was a guy in your law class who was telling a professor with

00:37:3340 years experience or 20 years experience that the professor was wrong about everything

00:37:37he was saying, how would you feel about that student?

00:37:43I would consider him an arrogant, pompous prick.

00:37:46Well, that might be harsh, but you know, you'd say that that may be not the wisest approach

00:37:51to trying to learn, right?

00:37:54Yes, absolutely.

00:37:56Right.

00:37:57So the way that I frame it is that you have challenges with vulnerability, and the fact

00:38:05that this guy was showing some real vulnerability probably aroused a bit of aggression in you.

00:38:11And so I sort of frame it that way, whereas I could have easily framed it in my mind

00:38:15to say, well, this guy wants to call me up for advice on relationships, and whenever

00:38:22I start pointing out things about his relationships, he tells me he's perfectly right and I'm wrong.

00:38:29And like, so this guy is not calling me up to get any advice, he's not calling me up

00:38:33to get any feedback, he's just calling me up, he's going to justify everything he's

00:38:36doing and say that he's perfectly in the right, not take any feedback, he's, you know, a jerk

00:38:41and I'm going to not bother spending any time with him.

00:38:43Like, you can understand how somebody might have that response, right?

00:38:48Yes, I understand that I have not begun this conversation with the most willingness to

00:38:56learn and I could have been more receptive to an alternative approach instead of saying

00:39:02he has an issue.

00:39:03Well, you're calling me for advice?

00:39:06Yeah, you're right.

00:39:09And so listen, I'm not, you know, but the funny thing is that you can't show vulnerability

00:39:16and you get really mad at a guy on the text messages who's showing vulnerability, right?

00:39:20Because saying you don't appear to be that interested, let's not waste each other's time

00:39:24is clearly showing vulnerability because he's saying, I like you more than you like me,

00:39:29which is a vulnerable position to be in, right?

00:39:32So it's kind of, I mean, you understand, it's kind of interesting to me that you get mad

00:39:36at a guy for showing vulnerability and then you call me up for advice and are unable to

00:39:40show any vulnerability.

00:39:41You know, it's kind of a circle, right?

00:39:43And I don't mean this in any negative way, I've just, it's an interesting pattern, right?

00:39:49You're right to highlight it and I'd like to investigate it further and see if there's

00:39:53any possible improvement there.

00:39:56Right, right.

00:40:00Okay, so what is it that you're looking for in a relationship?

00:40:09What will, how will the relationship make your life better?

00:40:14More than anything, I would say a sense of stability and peace that I can come home and

00:40:20have someone who's happy to see me and I'm happy to see them and whatever we do, go somewhere

00:40:27or watch something or eat something, it's done with an understanding that there's no

00:40:35need for a confrontation or stress or drama because fundamentally part of breaking the

00:40:40cycle for me would involve happiness at the sound of a key turning instead of sheer terror,

00:40:47which my childhood was.

00:40:49Right.

00:40:50And of course I hugely sympathize with that, I just wanted to mention that, that's a terrible,

00:40:54a terrible way to live as a kid.

00:40:55I was just talking to somebody the other day who's like, yeah, she has a sibling or two

00:40:59and whenever the father's key was in the lock, they'd all scatter, like they just leave,

00:41:03leave the house, leave, go to their rooms, go to the bottom of the garden just to stay

00:41:07away from him.

00:41:08It's an awful way to live and I really do want to sympathize with that way that you

00:41:12grew up.

00:41:13I appreciate that.

00:41:14Right.

00:41:15I'm grateful for that stuff and that means a lot.

00:41:18So peace, right?

00:41:20So you want peace, right?

00:41:23Peace and stability, yes.

00:41:27Now you know that your punchiness is not likely to get that no matter what someone does, right?

00:41:34Of course.

00:41:35If I'm combative and I come home and I'm, you know, asking these prosecutorial questions

00:41:41and taking everything as an affront and yeah, yeah, of course it's going to be a problem.

00:41:47Do you think that you need to find more peace in yourself in order to find peace in a relationship

00:41:52or do you think that a relationship will bring you that peace?

00:41:55I mean, and we're not saying whether it's rational or not, but what do you feel deep

00:41:57down?

00:41:58Do you think that the woman is going to bring peace to you?

00:42:03Or the man, I suppose.

00:42:04I would say no.

00:42:05I would say no.

00:42:06One must be peaceful first because you will not attract a peaceful person if you are yourself

00:42:11not peaceful.

00:42:12Right.

00:42:13And crazy comes to attack crazy.

00:42:16So yeah.

00:42:17So what do you think is keeping you punchy?

00:42:24It's a lot of the fight or flight response things that I've covered in therapy that you've

00:42:29expanded on in brilliant detail in your show.

00:42:32The bomb in the brain in particular comes up in my mind right now.

00:42:37It's a sense that because in childhood every conversation was a prosecutorial inquisition

00:42:46and every interaction could end in explosive violence that I've maybe carried that with

00:42:51me where you don't know if mom is going to come home with a bag of crisps or a knuckle

00:42:56sandwich.

00:42:57Right.

00:42:58Right.

00:42:59Yeah.

00:43:00Right.

00:43:01It's I'll be the first to admit that I have carried that legacy forward.

00:43:04And even when you hear someone laugh in public, that's the cliched example.

00:43:08But it's absolutely true.

00:43:09When I hear people laugh in public, I turn over my shoulder while they're laughing at

00:43:12me.

00:43:13I don't care about you.

00:43:14Stop making it about you.

00:43:15Yeah.

00:43:16I was actually talking to a guy this morning who wouldn't go to the gym because he was

00:43:19afraid everyone was going to look at him.

00:43:22And it's like, no, no, no.

00:43:23You go to the gym, everyone's looking in the mirror, they're not looking at you.

00:43:27That's a different thing.

00:43:28Everyone's narcissistic, not combative that way.

00:43:31Anyway, I'm just kidding, right?

00:43:33But yeah, so if you know that, right?

00:43:38If you know that about yourself, like the punchy stuff, the fight or flight stuff, the

00:43:43inquisition stuff, the cross-examination, the aggression and all of that.

00:43:50So if you know that, how do you catch yourself when you do it or when you have the impulse

00:43:58to do it?

00:43:59Because, I mean, you didn't catch yourself particularly, from what I can tell, you didn't

00:44:02catch yourself particularly with me.

00:44:04And I'm not trying to, again, I'm not trying to blame you.

00:44:06I'm glad that you were honest and direct, right?

00:44:09But you didn't hugely catch yourself with me until I sort of, you know, kind of patiently

00:44:13and persistently pointed it out.

00:44:15So if you have, this is, I mean, this is the big question of self-knowledge, and I don't

00:44:18have any magic answer to it.

00:44:20But the big question of self-knowledge is, okay, I know this about myself.

00:44:25Now what?

00:44:26Right?

00:44:27So I know that I'm kind of punchy and it's a fight or flight, it's kill or be killed,

00:44:31it's a counter-attack or be destroyed.

00:44:33I mean, so if I know that about myself, then what?

00:44:37Right?

00:44:38So that's the big question for you.

00:44:40Knowing this about yourself, you've done the year of therapy, which is fantastic.

00:44:43You've worked on self-knowledge, which is fantastic.

00:44:45So now you know about the punchy side of yourself.

00:44:49Now what?

00:44:50How do you catch yourself?

00:44:55I was hoping to rely on some of your wisdom for this.

00:44:58Right.

00:44:59But is that something that is on your list?

00:45:02And I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't be, I just want to know, is it like, okay,

00:45:05now I know this about, I know this punchy side of myself.

00:45:08So how do I catch it?

00:45:12I would love to work on that.

00:45:13Yes.

00:45:14I believe the fight or flight response is something that I have worked on, but to hear

00:45:21your thoughts on it and to give me some pointers to work on going forward, I think would be

00:45:29invaluable.

00:45:30Yes.

00:45:31Okay.

00:45:32So the way that I've worked on these kinds of things, and obviously I don't know what

00:45:36would work for you.

00:45:37I'm not going to share what's worked for me, but the way that I've worked on these things,

00:45:41so I have a habit of taking things personally, or I used to, I think I'm mostly done with

00:45:47it now, but I have a habit of taking things personally.

00:45:52So the way that I do it in my mind and in my interactions is, if I'm taking something

00:46:02personally, I'm wrong until proven otherwise.

00:46:10I'm wrong until proven otherwise.

00:46:12That's very liberating for me.

00:46:14Now, sometimes people are saying things personally, and that's important, but in general, if I

00:46:20have a particular trigger, the way that I work with it is, I'm absolutely, completely

00:46:25and totally wrong until proven otherwise, right?

00:46:30So if you have a feeling that somebody's laughing in public, they're laughing at you,

00:46:34I think you assume that unless they're pointing at you and laughing, and telling all their

00:46:39friends to, and they're pointing, like, I don't know, you've got some toilet paper hanging

00:46:43out of your shorts or something, I don't know, whatever it is, right?

00:46:47Somebody put a kick me sign on your back or whatever, right?

00:46:50So if somebody laughs in your vicinity, and you say, oh, they're laughing at me, you say,

00:46:57no, no, no, I'm totally wrong about that until there's clear evidence otherwise.

00:47:01Does that make sense?

00:47:04It really does make sense, because a lot of the times I'll have a tendency to take things

00:47:08personally.

00:47:09I mean, frowns, you know, when they're walking past, and you think the frown is about you,

00:47:14but...

00:47:15Sorry, you're moving around a little bit, and your audio is kind of coming and going,

00:47:19it's a little hard to follow what you're saying.

00:47:21Sorry, I am walking about, sorry.

00:47:24Yeah, I would say that's definitely something that is true.

00:47:31My tendency to take things personally, and it would be right to say that, assume you're

00:47:36wrong until proven otherwise, because most of the time, 99% of the time, it's not about

00:47:44you.

00:47:45If someone frowns at you when they're walking past you, I personally would have a tendency

00:47:49to say they're frowning at me, but they might not be.

00:47:52They're most likely not.

00:47:54It would be reasonable to assume they're not frowning at me, unless they were to walk up

00:47:59to me and tell me why they are frowning at me.

00:48:02So yes, I absolutely agree that to start off with the position of, I'm wrong, and so let's

00:48:08learn what's right, is a lot more productive than, screw you, I'm going to be punchy.

00:48:13Right.

00:48:14Now, but there's an even bigger level.

00:48:17So let's say somebody frowns at you, and then they walk up and they say, I'm frowning at

00:48:21you because X, Y, Z, whatever, right?

00:48:24I don't like your beard or whatever, right?

00:48:27You understand, even that has nothing to do with you.

00:48:32It could be with their particular ghosts and demons and childhood and dysfunctions, I'll

00:48:37admit.

00:48:38Yes.

00:48:39Right.

00:48:40So, I mean, obviously people have said some horrible things about me publicly, and it's

00:48:46not about me, though.

00:48:47Even though they say that Steph did X, Y, and Z, therefore Steph is bad and so on, right?

00:48:56So it's not about me.

00:48:59Because anyone who said X, Y, and Z, they'd be mad at, right?

00:49:04So it's really about X, Y, and Z that they're upset.

00:49:07Yes.

00:49:08Right.

00:49:09So if I say women have smaller brains than men, right, I mean, that's true.

00:49:16I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean anything about intelligence.

00:49:19I mean, elephants have larger brains than people, but they're not smarter, right?

00:49:24But if I say women have smaller brains than men, then people will say, oh, this terrible

00:49:30misogynist, he hates women, whatever it is, right?

00:49:32Now, it's not about me.

00:49:33It's about the fact that I'm stating.

00:49:35People are getting angry at facts.

00:49:39Now people who get angry at facts are mentally ill, or corrupt, or maybe they're just malevolent

00:49:46and evil.

00:49:47But people who get angry at facts will be viewed as some of the most corrupt people

00:49:52in history.

00:49:53So, of course, when Tycho Brahe, and Galileo, and Copernicus all started to advance the

00:49:59idea that the earth was not the center of the universe, people got very angry.

00:50:06And you know, people were killed, tortured, mutilated, exiled, and so on.

00:50:13Because of facts.

00:50:14It's a fact.

00:50:15It's a fact that the earth is not the center of the universe.

00:50:17And people who get angry at facts are some of the most corrupt people around, and obviously

00:50:21some of the most malevolent and immoral people around.

00:50:24And you know, sometimes it's just emotional or whatever.

00:50:27So they're not angry at me.

00:50:30It's not about me.

00:50:31Even though they say, Steph is a terrible guy because he said X, Y, and Z, well, these

00:50:34things, what I say is true.

00:50:36I mean, the facts that I say are true.

00:50:39And so they're not angry at me, they're angry at facts.

00:50:41They're enraged that the earth is not the center of the solar system, because they have

00:50:46an ideology that says the earth is the center of the solar system in the same way that some

00:50:50people's religious belief was contingent upon the fact that the Bible says the earth is

00:50:53fixed and does not move.

00:50:55And so for them to say that the earth is not the center of the universe and the universe

00:51:05doesn't rotate around the earth and so on, to say that is blasphemy.

00:51:11So they're fundamentally like the causality, and this is why, this is how you undo the

00:51:16causality in your mind.

00:51:18The causality is people who are angry at people who say the earth is not the center of the

00:51:25universe.

00:51:27They're not angry that the earth is not the center of the universe.

00:51:32They're not angry that this contradicts certain interpretations of biblical teachings.

00:51:38They're not angry at any of that stuff.

00:51:40They're not angry at the person who says it.

00:51:43They're angry at the people who lied to them, usually their parents, usually their parents

00:51:51or trusted teachers and so on.

00:51:53So people aren't mad at me for what I say, they're actually mad at the people who lied

00:51:58to them.

00:51:59Now they're taking it out on me because I've revealed that people lied to them.

00:52:05So it's not personal to me, it's actually, they're not fighting me, they're fighting

00:52:12the people who lied to them.

00:52:15And in the same way, the reason I didn't take your punchiness with me personally is you're

00:52:18not fighting me.

00:52:21It's not personal to me, it's not about me, you're not even disagreeing with me.

00:52:26It's just that if you're in a situation where your status is lowered, you're about to be

00:52:32physically attacked.

00:52:34So you have to maintain your status, you're avoiding the fists of your parents, you're

00:52:38not fighting with me.

00:52:40Does that make sense?

00:52:43It does.

00:52:44It does.

00:52:45I'll be the first to highlight that the punchiness, yeah, it does come from childhood and it does

00:52:52come from reading people's minds, assuming that their minds are in any way, shape or

00:52:58form similar to those of my parents, but God forbid that be the case.

00:53:03Well, but of course you called me because I'm not like your parents, right?

00:53:08Absolutely.

00:53:09So here's your challenge.

00:53:13When you feel punchy and you feel the urge to fight and hair split and defend and attack

00:53:19and reframe and when you're punchy, you're wrong until proven otherwise.

00:53:29That's a wonderful stratagem to keep in my back pocket.

00:53:32I'm not saying keep it in your back pocket because that's out of sight.

00:53:38I'm saying keep it a little closer to your consciousness than your back pocket.

00:53:43And it's tough.

00:53:44I'll post it, note it on my forehead.

00:53:45Yeah, yeah, because...

00:53:46And you're right.

00:53:47It's tough because that's our primary survival mechanism, is now to be discarded.

00:53:57Which feels, I don't know, like if you've seen one of these cheesy Jurassic Park movies

00:54:02where the guy goes into the paddock and he's going to command the dinosaurs with his voice

00:54:07and he's going to teach them to sit and back, and I'm like, that's not going to work.

00:54:13Like, okay, it's a fantasy, obviously, fantasy movie and so on, right?

00:54:17But it's like the baby zebra approaching the hungry lion saying, no, I'm not going to run.

00:54:26I'm going to make friends.

00:54:27Well, you're going to make friends with their bellies, right?

00:54:28You're not going to make friends with them.

00:54:30So the reason why it's so hard to do is an absolute survival mechanism, which for you

00:54:36is being punchy and fighting back, because otherwise if you show vulnerability, they'll

00:54:39tear you apart.

00:54:41So for you to say, my primary defense mechanism that has kept me alive though these many decades,

00:54:48I must now go in to the lion cage called the world with no protection whatsoever, oof,

00:54:58that's tough, right?

00:55:00Yeah, it really is.

00:55:03So yeah, when my mother would sort of attack me or say that she hates me or put me down

00:55:10or something like that, I had to take it personally, I had to, that was survival.

00:55:16Because if I had said, like, my mother would be yelling at me and calling me terrible names

00:55:20or whatever, right?

00:55:21It's great how things change in life, but when my mother would be yelling at me and

00:55:24calling me terrible names, I would have to pretend that what she was saying was true.

00:55:29I would have to take it personally.

00:55:31Because if I said, look, you're just a sad, lonely woman in her forties who screwed up

00:55:36her life, won't take responsibility and hates her own choices and is taking it out on me,

00:55:40right, if I had said something like that, what would have happened?

00:55:43Violence.

00:55:44Oh yeah, like, and violence, like I could have been killed.

00:55:48She was that violent, right?

00:55:51So I had to take things personally and I had to internalize.

00:55:56Because if I didn't take things personally and I just rolled my eyes like, yeah, yeah,

00:55:59yeah, you're just making a bunch of noise, you're just some woman who can't get a decent

00:56:03guy and you won't take any responsibility and you're aging out of your looks and, you

00:56:07know, it's a sad, pathetic life.

00:56:09And like, if I had done all of that, I mean, when I was a little kid, right, which is all

00:56:14pretty obvious, right?

00:56:15I mean, I would have been taking my life in my hands.

00:56:23So you have to, yeah, yeah, oh gosh, you know, I'm so sorry, blah, blah, blah.

00:56:26You have to, you have to take it personally, you have to internalize it.

00:56:30And so, but the problem is, of course, that when you take things personally, and you react

00:56:38to the world as if you're still a child, then quality people will stay away from you and

00:56:45dysfunctional people will be attracted to you.

00:56:49I've noticed I have that tendency, to attract the unattractive.

00:56:55Right, right, right.

00:56:58So my guess is something like this.

00:57:01So in your family, if I remember correctly, and listen, brother, please tell me if I go

00:57:05astray, right?

00:57:06So it's your life and we had the convo before.

00:57:08So if I go astray, please tell me, because I don't want to get anything wrong about your

00:57:12life.

00:57:14So in your family, status was very important, that if you were higher status, you were a

00:57:19little safer.

00:57:20And if you were lower status, you were toast.

00:57:23Yes, because it was fundamentally about power.

00:57:28The status was based on I can kick your ass, and you can't say or do anything about it.

00:57:34And I'm basically willing to defend the status with violence, which is why the power dynamics

00:57:39and the status shifted when I got too physically big to hit.

00:57:43Right, right, right.

00:57:44Then it usually shifts to more emotional stuff and so on, right?

00:57:48Yes, absolutely.

00:57:50Status certainly was a thing.

00:57:52Even just asking good faith questions like where were you or what were you doing or why

00:57:56did you do this?

00:57:57I would get a snapback, a nasty response.

00:58:00What do you care?

00:58:01What do you want?

00:58:02Why do you want to know?

00:58:03Don't worry.

00:58:04Don't worry.

00:58:05It's just this.

00:58:06Yeah, punchiness.

00:58:07I've.

00:58:08I've.

00:58:09I've.

00:58:10Adapted.

00:58:11Right.

00:58:12So if high status is safety and low status is danger.

00:58:18Then when you got the sense that this guy was more interested in you than you were in him,

00:58:23you became higher status.

00:58:28You could say that.

00:58:29Yeah, I would agree with that.

00:58:30Well, generally in a power dynamic, the person who has more desire is the person who has

00:58:37to make more compromises.

00:58:39Like if you're if you're desperate for a car and it's the last one on the lot, the guy

00:58:43knows he can charge you more and you'll you'll pay it, right?

00:58:48Yes.

00:58:49So when he.

00:58:55Wanted you more than you wanted him or showed more interest in you.

00:58:59Then you withdraw because if you show equal numbers, if you show equal levels of interest

00:59:04in him, then you don't get high status and therefore you're not in power.

00:59:09You're not safe.

00:59:10You're not secure.

00:59:13So in a sense, I think with this guy texting, he became you as a kid and you became your

00:59:18parents.

00:59:19That's a powerful observation, and I am partially speechless, which is rare, but yes, I mean.

00:59:33The dynamics did kind of shift in my mind when I got the sense that I was being more

00:59:41the recipient of attention than the giver of attention.

00:59:45Yes.

00:59:46Things, the variables and calculations in my head that change.

00:59:49Yes.

00:59:50So this means the more someone wants you, the less you want them because the more someone

00:59:55wants you, the lower status they become and lower status is bad.

01:00:02I'll keep that powerful observation in my front pocket because.

01:00:08And that's why relationships are not sustainable because the more someone wants you.

01:00:13The more they tempt you into being distant because you are tempted to be dominant when

01:00:19somebody is submissive because of your family.

01:00:23And when someone wants you more, they're in a lower status position, which translates

01:00:28into submissive.

01:00:29So the more someone wants you, the more you're going to reject them.

01:00:32And it seems to me that that's why I wanted to spend some time on the text messages, right?

01:00:37Yes, but can I also highlight the fact that this might just be a form of conventional

01:00:43self-sabotage, parents trying to keep me isolated so they can say, we were right about you being

01:00:48a shit kid because if I do push people that like me away and I end up 40 and having pushed

01:00:56all the people that liked me away and there were plenty of opportunities, believe me.

01:01:01Then suddenly my mother can look up from her grave, hopefully by then, and say I was right

01:01:06about you.

01:01:07Wow.

01:01:08Or my father.

01:01:09It's been a while since someone wished for the death of a mother, but I totally get where

01:01:12you're coming from.

01:01:13I totally get where you're coming from.

01:01:14It's not necessarily wishing, I will admit I misspoke.

01:01:19That's malevolent.

01:01:20I should not have said that.

01:01:21I apologize.

01:01:22Listen, listen, listen.

01:01:23If that's what you feel, I'm not going to fault you.

01:01:26I mean, the woman was pretty horrendous.

01:01:28So I'm just pointing it out that maybe that isn't conversation for the first date.

01:01:33I'm just saying, you know, this isn't our first date.

01:01:35We're not on a date, but, you know, I understand that level of aggression towards parents.

01:01:40When my father died, I felt nothing.

01:01:42I felt nothing.

01:01:43He even, because his last days were slow and he was in hospital and there were opportunities

01:01:49to talk to him and someone did offer to pass me the phone and I said, no, I don't want

01:01:54to talk to him.

01:01:55Whatever happens is on him.

01:01:58And he died without us ever having a conversation.

01:02:01If you wanted something from your father, it would have been low status, right?

01:02:06Well, I don't think a status thing was there as much of a, as much as there was a hate

01:02:12thing of, I won't give him the joy of a goodbye because he never gave me the joy of a good

01:02:18childhood.

01:02:20When I left my country of origin and we said our goodbyes, I felt joy.

01:02:26And when he died, I felt nothing because it's this self-inflicted, all his problems,

01:02:33all his wounds in life.

01:02:34Hey, I, listen, my friend and, you know, my brother in childhood suffering, I say this

01:02:39with all compassion and empathy, that's just not true.

01:02:43You can't feel nothing when your father dies.

01:02:47I mean, if you have an enemy who dies, I mean, I learned something the other day, I won't

01:02:54get into details, but I learned something the other day about someone who did me some

01:02:58significant harm in the past, and they came to quite a bad end.

01:03:02Now, this was not a relative, it doesn't really matter the details, and this has happened

01:03:07quite a bit over the years.

01:03:09People who...

01:03:10In personal or public life?

01:03:14It's not, get into details, I don't want to, I don't want to make this about me.

01:03:18But I have noticed that the people who've done me harm don't generally come to a good

01:03:22end, right?

01:03:24Because it's never a good faith thing, right?

01:03:28So my point is that when I heard that this person had done badly or something bad had

01:03:34happened to this person, I felt good.

01:03:40I felt glad, I felt satisfaction, I felt that the universe was inevitably arcing towards

01:03:45justice, that the unconscious and the conscience gets people who do corrupt things.

01:03:51So I, yeah, I'm...

01:03:55And to feel nothing, my father died, and I had, relative to you, I had almost no relationship

01:04:00with the man, with you, with your father.

01:04:03So nothing, that's a power play, right?

01:04:07You kind of felt nothing.

01:04:08If you hated him that much, you had to be happy he was gone, but you kind of felt nothing.

01:04:17There was a conflict, a stirring of emotions, I felt several things, but fundamentally,

01:04:28when I say nothing, I mean I wasn't in any way beset by this, it didn't change my routine

01:04:35or my schedule, I didn't take a day off, whatever I was doing.

01:04:39Okay, so he died, was it last year?

01:04:42Sixth of March this year.

01:04:44Sixth of March, so recent, right?

01:04:45Okay, a couple of months ago.

01:04:48So what is the stirrings of emotion?

01:04:49What did you feel?

01:04:52Well, first and foremost, I felt sad that it ended with zero legacy, and when I say

01:05:01zero, Stefan, I mean zero, not even a phone contract, a Wi-Fi, a car, a will, a pension,

01:05:09a friendship, some best friend of his that should know that this happened, nothing.

01:05:16It's as though he never existed.

01:05:20It's literally, I mean, except for obviously me being here, the man left nothing, and that

01:05:26made me sad, because I said, for all my flaws, I certainly hope I don't end up as forgettable.

01:05:33The man left nothing?

01:05:34Again, I hate to be Mr. Contradiction, but he left pain and trauma, didn't he?

01:05:41He did, he really, really, really did.

01:05:43I mean, it's like if a giant asteroid hits some place, it leaves a big crater.

01:05:49I mean, there's nothing there of the buildings, but there's a crater, right?

01:05:53Yeah, he left nothing but fear and pain and anger and every negative emotion you can list.

01:06:00When I said nothing, obviously, I meant a physical presence on the earth, but you're

01:06:05right, he did leave misery, and I think that counts for a lot more than many physical things.

01:06:10So yes, you're right.

01:06:11How long did, for how long did he know he was likely to die?

01:06:15Well, I'm not clear on the whole situation, because it was a continent away, and I got

01:06:23this all through middlemen.

01:06:24I didn't have a direct contact with him.

01:06:27No, but he wasn't hit by a bus out of nowhere, right?

01:06:30No, yeah, from what I understand, there was a health incident, and after that health incident,

01:06:36it was about a month that he died.

01:06:38So roughly a month, presumably, he would have known that the end is near.

01:06:42And before that health incident, did he consider himself to be in good health?

01:06:48Not good health, but he was physically moving around independently in his 70s.

01:06:55He didn't need a live-in assistance of any kind, no nurses.

01:07:00Oh, I forgot.

01:07:01Yeah, I'd forgotten.

01:07:02Sorry, I'd forgotten how old your father was, okay.

01:07:05Yeah, he had me in his 50s, so yeah.

01:07:08Right.

01:07:09Okay, so he had a month where he knew things, you know, it's time to make your peace with

01:07:15the world, right?

01:07:18Yeah.

01:07:19And he didn't reach out at all?

01:07:22Well, not directly, because a health incident, it really did screw him up.

01:07:27I mean, he wasn't sitting in bed, basically, yeah.

01:07:35He could, but he couldn't.

01:07:36From what I understand, again, this is all through middlemen, is he could make out who

01:07:41was near him, and he could say, you know, hi, and how are you, and all these things.

01:07:46But a deep conversation about our childhood, my childhood, would have been impossible,

01:07:51Is that because his brain had been damaged by the stroke?

01:07:55Presumably, yes.

01:07:58I didn't, I don't know much of the medical details, because it was a continental way.

01:08:03I'm giving you all I know.

01:08:04No, but it wasn't just that his communication abilities were damaged, but his brain as well?

01:08:11From what you know?

01:08:12Yes, everything was damaged.

01:08:14From what I know, it was physical, mental, everything just went.

01:08:19It was a bad one.

01:08:20Yeah, so the hammer blow of a stroke put him into a semi-vegetative state, right?

01:08:25Yes, yes, he was kind of, the way it was described to me was a baby, like, or a toddler.

01:08:31So that was not, like, what are people handing you the phone, what's the point of that?

01:08:36Well, it was more about, for me, to say goodbye, something about hearing your voice for the

01:08:43last time kind of thing.

01:08:45Like him hearing your voice, or you hearing his voice?

01:08:50Him hearing mine, but also it might have been that he probably would have recognized me,

01:08:56because he recognized other relatives with whom he had less contact.

01:08:59So I doubt that if I had spoken to him, he would have had zero idea who I am.

01:09:05He might not have been the most lucid.

01:09:08And for how long?

01:09:09I don't know.

01:09:10Sorry, for how long had you not had any real contact with him before the stroke?

01:09:17March of 21 was the defoo from both of them.

01:09:21Okay, so for three years, he didn't contact you, or didn't really make an effort, right?

01:09:29Not really, no.

01:09:32Right.

01:09:34Now with your defoo, with your separation from your family, which is really tragic,

01:09:39and I'm really, really sorry you had to go through that.

01:09:42But with your separation from your family, was it, and I know it's not clearly one or

01:09:50the other, but was it more, I'm registering a protest, I hope they recognize it, or was

01:09:57it like, I'm totally done, I don't want them to contact me no matter what?

01:10:03No, it was the second one.

01:10:05It was the second one, because we had the conversation.

01:10:08This was discussed in the previous call with you and I, my mother and I had the conversation

01:10:13where I sat her down and I said, you did this and you did that, and how many times did you

01:10:17hit me, and how many times did you scream at me, and why was I always afraid in childhood,

01:10:21and why did you burden me with financial and legal problems that an 80-year-old couldn't

01:10:26do shit about?

01:10:27Why did you include me in the worst moments and exclude me from the good moments?

01:10:30And I sat down and I presented everything that I was carrying in my childhood, and I

01:10:35got just not only, not a stone wall, but the golden fleece, I mean, a reflective mirror.

01:10:43You were a bad kid, and you were stoned all the time, and you didn't care about school,

01:10:47and how dare you criticize me, and I was a good mother, and this and that, it was just,

01:10:53it was enraging.

01:10:55I remember sitting there thinking, if this wasn't a frail old woman, and this was a man

01:10:59my size, I might actually lunge at him.

01:11:02Like, this was that level of rage that I felt, and so it was fundamentally, when I left,

01:11:12that space that I was sharing with her where we had the conversation, and I said, I'm just

01:11:16not going to visit her and talk to her again, because that was fucking unacceptable, to

01:11:20be honest.

01:11:21I'm sorry for my language.

01:11:22No, that's fine.

01:11:23Honestly, the last thing I care about is the language.

01:11:25I'm sorry about how much you suffered.

01:11:29I truly appreciate you on this, Stefan.

01:11:32Your compassion for a bad childhood is second to none, and I think that it takes a fellow

01:11:37survivor to show that, so I would reciprocate any sympathy and love, and of course, extend

01:11:44the same well wishes to you.

01:11:46Thank you, thank you.

01:11:48Right.

01:11:49So, they did not do much to try and resolve anything in the couple of years, right?

01:11:58The resolutions were always centered around me.

01:12:01I actually got an email from my mother several months ago.

01:12:04It would have been early 24, late 23, where it was a long-winded email, kind of like the

01:12:10one I sent you, but one of the sentences in that email, without getting into detail, was

01:12:15it's not too late to realize your mistake.

01:12:17Right.

01:12:18Literally.

01:12:19Right.

01:12:20Boy, she should have really sent that to your dad, because it was almost too late.

01:12:29And this is why people shouldn't put these things off, because he then got a stroke and

01:12:35the choice was removed from him to resolve anything.

01:12:39Yeah.

01:12:42I would say I'm partially receptive, but it's not going to be easy if they were to, well,

01:12:51not they will, if she was to reach out and say, I apologize and I'm willing to try and

01:12:58move forward.

01:12:59I don't know what I would say.

01:13:01First of all, restitution is impossible, because I tried working out the money side of things

01:13:07and put a number on it.

01:13:08Again, you can never really do that with something like a childhood, but in a civil lawsuit,

01:13:12you'd have to.

01:13:13So I sat down and I theorized about lost income, money spent on drugs, about lost social opportunities,

01:13:21lost romantic therapy itself, and future therapy, which I'd like to get back into.

01:13:25It runs into at least 200,000.

01:13:29And that's pounds.

01:13:30That's like real money.

01:13:32I wouldn't call the pound real money, Stefan.

01:13:34You haven't seen this.

01:13:35I'm in Canada, so it's more real than my monopoly money.

01:13:40Okay.

01:13:41Right.

01:13:42But yes, it's in the six figures that she would have to give me for me to start thinking

01:13:46that she's serious about restitution.

01:13:48Obviously, she doesn't have six figures.

01:13:49So what can she do?

01:13:51I mean, when you're talking about, oh, I'm going to flip the childhood script, and instead

01:13:56of offering you negative shittiness, I'm going to offer you love and support.

01:13:59Well, it's too late.

01:14:01That's not restitution.

01:14:02It's too late.

01:14:03You're 24 years too late for that.

01:14:04I don't accept the restitution that isn't.

01:14:06I thought about this because, sorry, I'm going to make it about me as well.

01:14:09But for me, if my mother sat down and told me the honest truth about her life, I would

01:14:14consider that a form of restitution.

01:14:18And because it would answer questions, right?

01:14:20I mean, it could well have been that my mother was just so smashed up as a probably victim

01:14:25of endless rape in the chaos of bombed end-to-end Nazi Germany that she just...

01:14:32But the problem is that she wouldn't have the ego to be able to say anything about that.

01:14:38There wouldn't be anything left.

01:14:39I'm sorry.

01:14:40I'm sorry.

01:14:41I just sat on a shard of glass.

01:14:42I'm sorry.

01:14:43Can you please repeat the last bit?

01:14:44You sat on a shard of glass?

01:14:46Well, do you want to take care of that?

01:14:47I don't...

01:14:48Let's deal with that.

01:14:49No, no, no.

01:14:50It's gone.

01:14:51It's gone.

01:14:52It's gone.

01:14:53I'm just in an abandoned nature area house.

01:14:54Are you okay?

01:14:55Are you bleeding?

01:14:56Yeah, yeah.

01:14:57I'm fine.

01:14:58No, no, no, no, no.

01:14:59It just pricked my thigh.

01:15:00I'm fine.

01:15:01I'm fine.

01:15:02Please continue.

01:15:03You know, this is just a reminder.

01:15:04Don't put shit in your back pocket.

01:15:05That's just a glass trying to impress upon you the importance to not keep things in your

01:15:08back pocket.

01:15:09Yeah, no.

01:15:10I was just saying that if I got a real honest, you know, if I got a real honest explanation

01:15:15from my parents about their own childhoods, I won't get that from my father.

01:15:20My father told me more about his life, but not about his childhood, really, and I don't

01:15:24think my father was honest about his childhood, and my mother certainly hasn't been very honest

01:15:27about her childhood, other than sort of vague hints here and there, but I would consider

01:15:32that a kind of restitution.

01:15:33I can't get it from my dad, and I'll never get it from my mom, because I wouldn't trust

01:15:36anything she would say about anything, because all she does is manipulate.

01:15:39So yeah, that restitution is impossible, but that would go a long way, or would have gone

01:15:44a long way towards really relieving things.

01:15:49So okay, so the feelings you had about your father's death.

01:15:56The second one after sadness was fear, fear that I would end up like that, a genuine,

01:16:05genuine fear, because I saw how he died alone, with nobody holding his hand, with nobody

01:16:12willing to go the extra mile for him.

01:16:17It's just heartbreaking.

01:16:20Is that my future, is what I thought to myself.

01:16:23So what were the top five or top three terrible things about your dad's older life?

01:16:30I would say number one, two, and three would be the isolation, just loneliness.

01:16:36Nobody wanted to speak to him, to be around him.

01:16:40Nobody wanted to do business with him.

01:16:42Nobody wanted to play sports with him.

01:16:45Nobody wanted to have a conversation with him.

01:16:48Just always off-putting to other people, very off-putting and unpleasant.

01:16:55Friends would come, family friends, they would come around for a month or two, and suddenly

01:17:00they stop.

01:17:02Oh, whatever happened to those people?

01:17:03Ah, you know, they were being dicks, they were being arrogant.

01:17:07He thinks he knows better than me.

01:17:10Ah, screw that guy.

01:17:10I remember, actually, one of them was over, what do you call it, the video pranks, real

01:17:17real-time camera, whatever they call it.

01:17:20And it was a show on TV, and my friend, my family friend, my father's friend, was arguing

01:17:25with my father about whether or not it's scripted, whether those pranks are scripted.

01:17:30And this argument just exploded into him never speaking again, because my father was dead

01:17:36dead set on all these real camera pranks.

01:17:40They're all fake, they're all scripted, they're all bullshit.

01:17:43And this friend said, no, some of them could be real, you never know, I mean, the reactions

01:17:47look real.

01:17:48Now, hang on, so do you know why your father was so adamant about that?

01:17:55Because it seems like a crazy thing to be adamant about, but why was your father so

01:17:59adamant about that?

01:18:00I'm assuming it would have something to do with the fact that no pleasant or positive

01:18:08interaction could ever be genuine.

01:18:12Well, it's because everything your father did was scripted.

01:18:17So he's raging against spontaneity and living in the moment.

01:18:23So he's saying they're all actors, everything's scripted, because he's so reactive and

01:18:30defensive that everything he does is scripted.

01:18:34And so it's a personal attack on him to say things can't be spontaneous and genuine.

01:18:40He feels criticized, so he's going to fight to the death to retain the fact that it's

01:18:45all scripted and fake, because he's all scripted and fake.

01:18:51I would agree.

01:18:53I mean, my mother used to rage against shows.

01:18:56Oh, there's all commercials now.

01:18:58It's just all commercials now.

01:19:01And it's like, yes, so the actual art, the actual humanity of the show is being replaced

01:19:08by commercials.

01:19:10And this is a time when she was getting nose jobs and using lots of makeup.

01:19:14And so she was just advertising herself and her personality was being eclipsed by physical

01:19:19vanity.

01:19:20And so she was enraged at the shows where it was all commercials, right?

01:19:23You understand that this is a weird thing that people do deep down where they get, like,

01:19:27it doesn't make any sense until you think that you remember that really selfish people

01:19:32interpret everything to be about themselves.

01:19:34And so I would assume that that would be why your father would bust up a long-term friendship

01:19:40over something so ridiculous, because it's not ridiculous.

01:19:42It's about him.

01:19:44It's about him and his nature.

01:19:48I'm inclined to agree, yeah.

01:19:52Okay, so what else did you feel?

01:19:55You felt anger, some sadness, fear?

01:20:04That's about it, really.

01:20:07Fundamentally, I would say there was a sense of not happiness, not joy, just a sense of

01:20:18justice has been.

01:20:20There's a sense of contentment that all of the toxicity and negativity and unpleasantness

01:20:30reasserted itself in the sunset phase of his life.

01:20:36Yes, so this is what you did to me in childhood and you died alone.

01:20:41Well, not just died alone, but he lived largely alone, too, right?

01:20:45The last few years of his life, after my sibling and I left him and my mother left him,

01:20:53he was, yeah, alone, isolated.

01:20:57Right, so your fear is isolation, right?

01:21:02Yes.

01:21:04And yet, and yet, you yourself are isolated.

01:21:15I wouldn't say completely yet, but when I look...

01:21:18No, hang on, no, no, no, no.

01:21:20See, that's a straw man, right?

01:21:24You inserted the word completely.

01:21:26Did I say completely?

01:21:28No.

01:21:30Well, it's one of those things that's either completely or not completely, because I do

01:21:34have friends.

01:21:35I do have a social circle.

01:21:36I'm sorry, did your father not have people who occasionally said people came by and visited

01:21:40and he'd fight with them and he wasn't completely isolated?

01:21:43This was in my childhood.

01:21:45No, no.

01:21:45Towards the end, he was completely isolated.

01:21:48I mean, this was early in my childhood when my mother and brother and I were still around

01:21:52and living in the same house, but after the three of us left, the last, I think, three

01:21:58years of his life, from the COVID lockdown until he died, basically, he was yet isolated

01:22:04completely.

01:22:05Oh, no.

01:22:08If he left the house once a week, it would have been a miracle, I swear.

01:22:13The level of isolation is something you've never seen.

01:22:15Because I asked my brother, I asked, so what does he do?

01:22:17Where did he go?

01:22:19The answers I got were just, oh, no, he sits home, TV.

01:22:23He'll call me occasionally, that kind of thing.

01:22:26But yeah, when I say complete isolation, I mean, as close as one can humanly get to that,

01:22:33because, yeah, the last three years of his life, he was pretty much a monk.

01:22:38So, yeah, I'm not a monk yet.

01:22:40But that was because he'd retired, right?

01:22:44I don't know if it has to do with retirement, whether your kid and wife leave you, but yeah,

01:22:52retirement did play a role.

01:22:54They're not working in general.

01:22:57It's going to limit the interactions you have, yeah.

01:22:59But he would have seen people if he'd been working, right?

01:23:03Yes, if he had been, yeah.

01:23:05Sorry, he's not a monk.

01:23:07Sorry, if what?

01:23:09If he had been working, yeah, he would have had human contact, but he didn't.

01:23:15So he would have had human contact if he had been working.

01:23:20He would have had human contact if he'd been going to school.

01:23:25Yes.

01:23:30But he didn't have human contact from his family,

01:23:33and he didn't have human contact from a romantic companion.

01:23:43No.

01:23:51Hello?

01:23:52I'm sorry, you just cut out for a second there.

01:23:54Go ahead.

01:23:56Sorry, yeah, he didn't have human contact with his family.

01:23:59No, they abandoned him.

01:24:01Okay, so no human contact with his family and no life partner.

01:24:07No.

01:24:08And you have no human contact with your family and no life partner.

01:24:15Well, I do have a brother.

01:24:16Sorry, you have a brother.

01:24:17True, true.

01:24:20But yes, the life partner thing is a pattern that him and I have in common,

01:24:25which is why I'm calling you in the hopes of breaking it.

01:24:28Well, I just—here's the thing, though.

01:24:30I mean, if your father would have had human contact from work and school,

01:24:35and you have some human contact from work and school,

01:24:39then that's not a variable that separates you.

01:24:44And if your father has no life partner and you have no life partner,

01:24:51I mean, I don't mean to alarm you, but it's not like,

01:24:54gosh, what if in the distant future I end up like my father?

01:24:58I would say that the danger is that in some ways you are there.

01:25:07And that's a good thing to panic about.

01:25:09In certain ways, yes, but I—

01:25:12Yes, can I offer a small counterpoint?

01:25:13Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.

01:25:14Not to be punctual, but this is worth mentioning.

01:25:17If my father had been at work and at school,

01:25:20there is an argument to be made that his dysfunctions

01:25:23and his particular demons would have meant that

01:25:26the human contact he had would have eventually dried up and turned into nothing.

01:25:32Whereas I have held jobs for long periods of time,

01:25:36have completed degrees,

01:25:38have sustained contact with fellow students for years.

01:25:43It's—yes, we would have had human contact,

01:25:46but the quality of that human contact is significantly different.

01:25:49I agree.

01:25:50I'm able to keep—

01:25:50Did your father have a girlfriend—

01:25:53Sorry, did your father have a girlfriend by 24?

01:25:58I don't know.

01:25:59Him and I never discussed it.

01:26:00He only told me one incident of romance before he met my mother.

01:26:06And how old was he when he met your mother?

01:26:10Would have been late 40s, early 50s, I couldn't tell you.

01:26:16And your mother never talked about it, obviously, right?

01:26:20No, no, my mother is the same thing.

01:26:22She gave me a few glimpses into romance before my father,

01:26:26but never delved into anything serious.

01:26:29No.

01:26:29Interesting.

01:26:30So you don't know anything about your parents' dating life before they were in their 40s?

01:26:37Just a few stories here and there.

01:26:41One for me, really, but yeah.

01:26:48And do you know why your father married so late?

01:26:52Eh, well, he never told me.

01:26:56I think no matter what he said, it probably would have been bullshit anyway.

01:27:00But if I may offer a theory, it would be that he was quite hedonistic and impulsive.

01:27:08He traveled the world and lived in various countries,

01:27:13had various careers, various businesses,

01:27:16just jumping from one thing or place or person to the next.

01:27:20And I think maybe in his 40s, it was the panic mode, desperation, settling,

01:27:26that kicked in, if I had to guess.

01:27:29So it sounds like then he would have most likely been promiscuous

01:27:32if he was traveling around and making money in various places and so on.

01:27:38I genuinely don't know.

01:27:40I couldn't tell you either way.

01:27:41He told me only one relationship before my mother.

01:27:45That's the only one he's mentioned to me.

01:27:46I don't know if there were others or how many there were.

01:27:49I wish I could tell you, but I really can't.

01:27:51Okay.

01:27:52Okay.

01:27:52Got it.

01:27:54All right.

01:27:55So as far as the work thing goes, the solicitor thing and so on,

01:28:01that's pretty specific advice.

01:28:03And if we can get to that, we can get to that.

01:28:05But my major concern is with your heart and your capacity to love and be loved.

01:28:13So.

01:28:14Yeah.

01:28:15So let me ask you this.

01:28:16Let me ask you this.

01:28:17So let's say that I'm a guy who knows a lot of women, right?

01:28:24And you're trying to sell me on introducing you to the very best woman I know.

01:28:34The most moral, the most virtuous, just the very, very best woman I know.

01:28:38He said, give me the top tier, the greatest, best woman you know.

01:28:44And I would say, okay, so what are you, what are you bringing to the table?

01:28:49And why, why should I?

01:28:51Cause you know, I mean, you know how it is in the business world.

01:28:53If you make a recommendation, you're kind of putting your reputation on the line, right?

01:29:00Yeah.

01:29:01So why, why would I, what would, what would you say?

01:29:05How would you sell me on you?

01:29:07I would stay, I've got two brain cells to rub together.

01:29:12No, no, come on, be serious, be serious, be serious.

01:29:16Okay.

01:29:17No, intelligence is something I would highlight, but I, that is serious.

01:29:23I would say I've accumulated some wealth that I've, I'm not rich by any means,

01:29:29but I'm certainly ahead of where other 24 year olds are these days.

01:29:34I would say I'm quite well achieved academically.

01:29:39I've been able to show some good achievements.

01:29:42I would say I can offer a sense of consistency.

01:29:46My routine is very consistent and pleasant.

01:29:52I would say to someone to be a part of that, to share what I do, generally speaking,

01:29:58in terms of agriculture and exercise and nature exploration and literature,

01:30:06I would say I've got interesting hobbies.

01:30:11I would say I can offer you a good future because career wise,

01:30:15I'm on track to make a decent amount of money and connections.

01:30:21So I would say I've got plenty to offer.

01:30:25So I would say I've got plenty to offer, certainly materially.

01:30:30Now, personally and spiritually, I would say is where I might be

01:30:35less able to offer as much and outcompete other men.

01:30:39But still, I would say I can offer you safety, physical safety, because

01:30:45I don't know how to fight.

01:30:46I do MMA and I've been doing it for five years.

01:30:50I train with people who fight professionally.

01:30:53So nobody will touch you when you're with me.

01:30:56Nobody will slander you.

01:31:00I can offer you a friendly ear at the end of a night,

01:31:05at the end of a day, sorry, in a quiet night.

01:31:09Someone to talk to and have your opinions and concerns listened to.

01:31:16I'm not a bad cook either.

01:31:18I can offer some nice culinary skills.

01:31:23Uh, yeah, that's about.

01:31:28I can think of them, yeah.

01:31:30Sorry if that was a bit long winded.

01:31:31No, no, listen, this is the summation of your value of the dating market.

01:31:35Be as long winded as you...

01:31:36I want a resume that goes on to nine pages as long as it's not padded, right?

01:31:41Okay, and drawbacks?

01:31:46Would you want me to mention anything to her about things to watch out for?

01:31:50I'm a smoker.

01:31:51A lot of women tend not to like that.

01:31:53I think I thought I heard a line a couple of times at the convo.

01:31:56Okay, yeah, yeah.

01:31:59Yeah, I've been smoking cigarettes.

01:32:01Um, I am away a lot.

01:32:06I tend to spend the majority of my days outside the house rather than in.

01:32:11Um, I would also say I expect a lot.

01:32:17From a woman, especially, I come from a more traditional background, and I think my personal

01:32:27approach towards a relationship with a woman would be one that is more traditional, where

01:32:33she's expected to not have any male contacts.

01:32:37She's expected to not show a lot of skin.

01:32:40She's expected to not drink in any large amount.

01:32:45I would say, if that's too controlling, maybe the traditional stuff in the modern West,

01:32:53especially, that might be viewed as a drawback.

01:32:58I would say, obviously, lastly, is the childhood that I'm carrying.

01:33:04The heightened fight or flight response, the misinterpretation of innocent things to be

01:33:11malevolent, the tendency to, you know, slip sometimes into anger mode, where I should maybe

01:33:21be more willing to forgive or forget, or where there is a fundamental incompatibility to just

01:33:27disengage and say, you know, I don't have to get angry, but I don't have to be around you either.

01:33:32I can be peaceful in how I depart.

01:33:36Yeah, those are the main drawbacks.

01:33:39Those are the main drawbacks, I would say.

01:33:41Okay.

01:33:43So, it's odd that you'd be both traditional and bisexual.

01:33:51And promiscuous, I might add.

01:33:53And promiscuous.

01:33:54So, you know, I mean, if you want to be Mr. Traditional, I mean, help me, I would just

01:33:58say, like, help me square that circle, that you're promiscuous, bisexual, and also very

01:34:04traditional, because those two things wouldn't necessarily all go totally hand-in-hand, right?

01:34:09Well, I said traditional when it comes to women, because men and women are not the same.

01:34:15Promiscuity affects us differently.

01:34:18So, if I was to show up into a relationship with a body count of 12, it's not the same

01:34:23as a woman showing up with a body count of 12.

01:34:27So, my own body count of 12 would be a deal-breaker in a woman.

01:34:32And I don't think that's hypocritical.

01:34:34I think that's a recognition of our natural differences.

01:34:37So, I do think when it comes to relationships with women, men, even if they are not the

01:34:43most traditional themselves, do have the leeway to demand a bit of extra adherence to tradition.

01:34:49All right.

01:34:50Because you need to know your baby's laws.

01:34:53You need to be able to protect her from other men.

01:34:56So, the traditions that give you the most liberty are the ones that you tend to prefer?

01:35:02Well, yes.

01:35:08Okay, I'm just pointing that out.

01:35:09I mean, I'm not saying that's the final answer, but that's something to explain.

01:35:13Now, let me ask you this.

01:35:15So, as a traditional man, would you feel comfortable with your wife going away with a bunch of

01:35:25men for a night out or for a weekend away?

01:35:30Never, no.

01:35:33Why not?

01:35:37Because I know how men think and act.

01:35:39And I know if she's with a bunch of men, sure, I might be innocent.

01:35:46You know, they're just my friends.

01:35:49In their mind, they've already picked who to make it.

01:35:51And if you give them the opportunity, if you're with them alone, it's more than likely one

01:35:59of them will proposition you.

01:36:02Or if not proposition you, then certainly flirt with you.

01:36:06And I'm not okay with that.

01:36:09Okay, so then you can't have male or female friends as a bisexual man, right, in a marriage?

01:36:17No, because I'm a man.

01:36:19I'm allowed to have fun before marriage.

01:36:22No, no, no.

01:36:22After marriage, right?

01:36:24So after marriage, would you consider it okay for you to go away with a bunch of female

01:36:31friends or to spend a night out with some female friends?

01:36:36Well, not where there's an overlap of preferences.

01:36:42So if my future wife were to hang out with a gay friend or a straight woman, I wouldn't

01:36:49have a problem.

01:36:49No, not a gay friend.

01:36:51So would you, as a man, be allowed to go out, in the traditional context, with a single

01:36:59heterosexual females or heterosexual females?

01:37:04No, no, no, no.

01:37:06This is something I support Mike Pence on.

01:37:08Okay, so as a bisexual man, it doesn't matter whether they're male or female, right?

01:37:16So you can't go out with the guys either, right, for your wife?

01:37:20Of men also.

01:37:23But if it's a straight guy and there's no chance of anything happening, then yes.

01:37:28It's in the same way that I would be okay with my wife having a gay best friend.

01:37:32If I know that there is zero chance of anything happening, it's fine.

01:37:37Okay, so if your wife would be straight and your wife would out be socializing with a

01:37:43group of lesbian friends, you'd be fine with that?

01:37:47Not really, no.

01:37:49Because we're getting a little tangled here, right?

01:37:54I think LGBT+, whatever label you want to put on it, has a tendency to get everyone

01:38:00tangled into knots.

01:38:01Right.

01:38:02So I'm just saying that the bisexuality is a complication for a wife.

01:38:10Because, I mean, obviously, it's more people you can cheat with, so to speak, right?

01:38:13Possibly.

01:38:16Yes, and not only more people you can cheat with, but what if you woke up one day and

01:38:21decided that you couldn't live without, you know, male company for the rest of your life?

01:38:26It's not just the adultery, but the decision-making where you might just decide, nah, I don't

01:38:31want to forego half of this, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do that, I don't

01:38:36want to do that, where you might just decide, nah, I don't want to forego half of this market.

01:38:41I mean, Freddie Mercury started off straight-ish, then went bi, and then went gay, and left

01:38:50the woman, Mary Austin, I think her name was, left her, and, I mean, it's a slight complication,

01:38:56to put it mildly, right?

01:39:00Yes, it is a complication.

01:39:03Right, okay.

01:39:06The last woman I was with didn't mind.

01:39:08I'm sorry?

01:39:09I'll remark on that.

01:39:10The last woman I was with did not mind, and I told her on our first date.

01:39:15So, there are women out there, it's just going to, you know, limit my options, because there

01:39:20are women out there for whom it would be a deal-breaker, but there are women out there

01:39:25for whom it would not be.

01:39:26So, I still have prospects, I would say.

01:39:29Yes, but that relationship didn't work out.

01:39:32I'm not saying for that reason alone, or maybe not even that reason specifically, but

01:39:37it didn't work out.

01:39:37Yeah, no, it didn't work out because I was a twat.

01:39:41It has nothing to do with my bisexuality.

01:39:46That didn't come up in any conversation beyond the first date.

01:39:49Okay.

01:39:50It was barely a factor in why and how things ended the way they did.

01:39:54Right, okay.

01:39:56Okay.

01:39:57So, I think one of the things that would make, the danger for you is power, right?

01:40:04And listen, it's the danger for all of us.

01:40:06The danger for all of us is power.

01:40:07You know, when I became a father, man, it's just incredible how much power you have over

01:40:12your kids.

01:40:13It's mind-blowing how sensitive they are to your thoughts, your moods, and how much they

01:40:17want to please you.

01:40:18Like, it's a crazy amount of power.

01:40:21It's a crazy amount of power.

01:40:23And I think, based on your upbringing and your culture to some degree, maybe a little

01:40:29bit of your nature and just being a man, I think, you know, the first thing that has

01:40:35to happen, I think, for a woman to feel secure with you is she has to feel that you will

01:40:40never misuse your power.

01:40:41Because man, falling in love is giving someone power over you.

01:40:46And maybe that's a little bit what bothered you with the guy, with the texting, that he

01:40:49gave you too much power too soon.

01:40:50It seemed maybe needy.

01:40:51I mean, I get all of that.

01:40:53But when you're in love with someone, their approval means everything to you.

01:40:58Their continuance of the relationship means everything to you.

01:41:05You know, I mean, when people get attacked in public, it's really the relationships that

01:41:09they're attacking.

01:41:10I mean, there is the income and the reputation and so on.

01:41:12But they're also going after the relationships.

01:41:15So the question, I think, for you is, how are you going to be vulnerable in a relationship

01:41:24and really need someone and love someone without recoiling from that into wanting to feel

01:41:33safe and secure, which for you, I think, means superior and distant.

01:41:36I'll need to let go of my tendency to view things in that frame and instead move towards

01:41:45a more productive, ethical frame.

01:41:48I think so.

01:41:48And the big challenge, of course, is that which is unconscious to us.

01:41:51So I don't know what you should do.

01:41:54If I were in your shoes, I would say if I met someone, I would say, I don't know, I

01:42:00don't know what you should do.

01:42:01If I were in your shoes, I would say if I met someone that I really wanted to date and

01:42:08be in a relationship with, I would say, I have a tendency towards punchiness, a little

01:42:14bit of arrogance to thinking I'm right.

01:42:17So I'm going to work on that.

01:42:19But I'm going to ask you for a tiny favor.

01:42:20Maybe it's not a tiny favor.

01:42:21I'm going to ask you for a favor, which is I'm going to give you a word.

01:42:27I don't know, maybe a word in Arabic or Swedish or some word, right?

01:42:31I'm going to give you a word.

01:42:32We'll call it verboten.

01:42:33Let's go German, right?

01:42:34We'll give you a word verboten.

01:42:36Now, if you see me doing this, I want you to stand up and say verboten.

01:42:40And then that'll be your safe word for when I have a bad habit coming on, and I will

01:42:44absolutely surrender to your perception and stop what I'm doing.

01:42:50And that way, somebody has power over you that is, they have full authority to stop

01:42:56you in your tracks.

01:42:58And then getting used to someone having power over you is really important.

01:43:02My wife has immense, immeasurable power over me.

01:43:10Is it not a bit too much, though?

01:43:12Too much what?

01:43:13It seems like you're giving away power.

01:43:17If I tell someone, you can just stand up.

01:43:19That's what love is.

01:43:20You're giving away power.

01:43:21You have to trust her judgment to the point where she says verboten, and you stop what

01:43:28you're doing, and you trust her judgment.

01:43:33Because if you don't trust her judgment, why would you be with her?

01:43:41It's a fair point.

01:43:42It might be a wise strategy to compensate for my ability to remark on that tendency

01:43:55and stop it in its tracks.

01:43:58It does seem like a power that can be abused, but fundamentally, the trust that I would

01:44:04have going into the relationship should serve as a guarantor that that trust will not be

01:44:09abused.

01:44:11I mean, obviously, she has to trust you on some things as well, too, right?

01:44:15If she has a male friend, and you say, that guy wants to sleep with you, she's at least

01:44:20got to listen to you make your case, right?

01:44:24And how do we know that he wants to sleep with her?

01:44:26Because he's a male friend, and that's what male friends do.

01:44:28They circle around like half-gay cuttlefish trying to sleep with the girls.

01:44:32I mean, that's what males do.

01:44:34So she would obviously trust you on some things as well, but surrendering to somebody else's

01:44:40authority is one of the great powers of marriage.

01:44:42I mean, it feels like vulnerability, but it's so much better.

01:44:47I mean, if you had somebody, I don't know if you watch football, right?

01:44:51But if you had somebody who came out, gave you a yellow flag every time you started to

01:44:55get pointlessly punchy, that'd be kind of helpful to you, wouldn't it?

01:44:58Oh, shoot.

01:44:59Yes, thank you.

01:45:00Sorry, I'll stop this.

01:45:01Not a good, right?

01:45:02So it would just be a way of outsourcing your conscience and having course correction on

01:45:07the things you can't see, which I can't see in myself.

01:45:09And it's really hard to see yourself, right?

01:45:12So being able to outsource your conscience to a partner gives you much more liberty of

01:45:17action because you're not constantly stopping and having to check yourself.

01:45:21Am I doing the right thing?

01:45:21Am I doing the wrong?

01:45:22Like being able to outsource it to someone who can see clearly, right?

01:45:26I mean, think of, you know, if you need to check, you're a young man.

01:45:29When you get older, you need to check your skin from weird moles, right?

01:45:33Now, if I didn't have a wife, right, with a mirror, you know, some weird yoga position

01:45:41and, you know, like contortionist thing, I'm looking like pink kanji or something like

01:45:46that, right?

01:45:47So, but with a wife, you can just say, can you have a look at my back?

01:45:50She just looks at your back, right?

01:45:51I mean, there's an old joke about married couples, right?

01:45:53Like you send your wife a nude selfie and she's like, which mole do you want me to check?

01:45:59You know, that's what it's like.

01:46:01So, in terms of watching your back, if you have someone to watch your back, that's just

01:46:07so much easier.

01:46:08You can then outsource your conscience to someone else.

01:46:10Someone else can outsource your conscience to you, right?

01:46:13I mean, so with parenting, mothers tend to be too cautious and fathers tend to be not

01:46:21quite cautious enough.

01:46:22And somewhere in the middle is a good balance.

01:46:25So, sometimes when my daughter was younger, sometimes I'd say to my wife, she should try

01:46:29this risk, like my daughter should try this risk.

01:46:32And sometimes my wife would say, that's too risky.

01:46:35And through that negotiation, you end up with a very safe environment for your children.

01:46:39Safe, but not so safe that it becomes dangerous because they don't learn how to assess risk.

01:46:44Does that sort of make sense?

01:46:47Yes.

01:46:48A push and a pull.

01:46:49A push and a pull.

01:46:50And men and women, sorry to go all binary on you, but men and women in particular are

01:46:56evolved to fit together and negotiate well together for the safety and security and risk

01:47:03assessment for children.

01:47:05It tends to work out pretty well.

01:47:06Which is why, you know, as women have become more and more dominant, parenting has become

01:47:11more and more restrictive and claustrophobic and helicopter parenting and bubble wrap children

01:47:16because they don't have men to say, no, it's fine.

01:47:19She falls, she'll get back up, right?

01:47:21She'll be fine.

01:47:22So it's the same thing with the conscience and self-knowledge.

01:47:28If you have someone who truly loves you and understands you, your strengths and your

01:47:33weaknesses, then you have someone who's truly watching your back.

01:47:39And then you don't have to watch your back as much because you get that kind of feedback

01:47:42and you can really let rip in life.

01:47:43You can really just go for it.

01:47:45Knowing that if your wife isn't saying anything, you're fine.

01:47:48Because if you weren't fine, she'd be saying something.

01:47:52And it's very, very productive and very, very helpful.

01:47:54But to do that, you have to absolutely carve off part of your conscience and hand it over

01:47:59to your partner.

01:48:01And they have to watch your back.

01:48:03And if they're saying everything's fine, everything's fine.

01:48:06If they're saying there's a problem, there's a problem.

01:48:09And that's part of the strength and power of the marital relationship.

01:48:15But that does mean a surrender of your own personal authority.

01:48:17And of course, I understand for you to surrender your own personal authority really goes against

01:48:23your instincts because your parents would abuse that power on a regular basis.

01:48:27And teachers often do as well and other authority figures and so on, right?

01:48:32Oh, are you concerned about the environment?

01:48:34Well, we're going to tell you the planet's turning into Venus and we can fix it if you

01:48:37give us a bazillion dollars in taxes.

01:48:39You know, nonsense like that, right?

01:48:42So that, I think, would be useful.

01:48:45And that's why I'm not saying you would literally have a word that the woman would stand up

01:48:49and say verboten.

01:48:50It's just an analogy.

01:48:52But if she says, I think you're being defensive, you have to say, okay, I'm going to assume

01:48:59that's true.

01:49:00Now, again, doesn't mean that she runs everything and you can never say anything, but you have

01:49:06to trust her to that degree.

01:49:07And if you don't, that's pretty important to the relationship.

01:49:12And I think people like to feel trusted.

01:49:16I mean, if you have something to say to your wife, I'm just going to say wife, maybe it's

01:49:19going to be a man or whatever, right?

01:49:20But if you have something to say to your wife and you're absolutely certain you want her

01:49:25to listen, right?

01:49:27And it would be pretty efficient if you were to say, you know, that guy who you think is

01:49:31a male friend, he just wants to sleep with you.

01:49:33And it would be very efficient if she just said, okay, you know, I mean, you know men,

01:49:39I'll trust you on that.

01:49:40And she would just, as opposed to arguing with you, no, no, he's just a buddy, he doesn't

01:49:45care about that.

01:49:45And, you know, anything like that, that would just be, especially when you know you're right.

01:49:49So yeah, just surrendering your conscience to someone else is really tough for children

01:49:55of abuse and neglect.

01:49:58But it is pretty essential, I think, to having a functional relationship, because otherwise

01:50:02you just spend a lot of time trying to avoid the judgment of someone you claim to trust.

01:50:09And that's usually not very productive.

01:50:10You know, this guy on the text, he said, you're giving indications that you're not interested,

01:50:17right?

01:50:18That's what he said.

01:50:20And you're like, you're crazy, you're paranoid, forget it, you know, I'm not going to meet

01:50:24up with you, right?

01:50:25Or he said, we're not going to meet up, right?

01:50:27But he was the one who canceled.

01:50:28Yeah, he canceled.

01:50:29I get that, right?

01:50:31So he said, you're giving off signs that you're not interested.

01:50:35Now, if you were, I'm not saying after four days of texting, but if you were in a relationship,

01:50:40one of the things about being in a relationship is your partner is right until proven otherwise.

01:50:48And that's a tough thing, you know, for us go it alone kind of guys, that's a tough thing

01:50:53to have in our heads, to just surrender and say, you know, like, when I started getting

01:50:57back into the business world, my, you know, I was used to being the owner of the company,

01:51:01and so I could dress however I wanted.

01:51:03When I started getting back into the business world, my wife was like, you know, man, you've

01:51:07got to revamp your wardrobe, right?

01:51:10And I was like, no, I know what I'm doing, blah, blah, blah.

01:51:12And eventually, I just had to say, you know what?

01:51:17Maybe she's right.

01:51:18And as it turns out, she was right.

01:51:20She was right.

01:51:21And she's been right about a lot of things that I was certain about and was wrong about.

01:51:25And that's great.

01:51:26I mean, I don't consider that humiliating.

01:51:28I consider that like, wow, how smart am I to choose a woman who's got judgment that

01:51:33good?

01:51:34And how great is it for me to just, for my wife to say, you know, X, Y, and Z, I'm like,

01:51:42yeah, okay, I'll just do it your way, right?

01:51:44It's not my particular way, but I trust your judgment, and you're right.

01:51:49And she was right.

01:51:50And it's just, it's wonderful.

01:51:52But it does feel like surrendering power.

01:51:55And then that's always resulted in humiliation in the past, like in childhood and so on.

01:51:59But if you can't surrender power, you can't pair bond, because pair bond is trust.

01:52:04And whenever you don't surrender power to someone, you're saying, I don't trust you.

01:52:08I don't trust you.

01:52:09You're going to misuse this power.

01:52:10You're going to abuse me.

01:52:11You're going to neglect me.

01:52:12I won't let you have power over me.

01:52:14And it's like, okay, then stay alone, right?

01:52:16Because the whole point is to trust someone.

01:52:17That's what pair bonding is, just trust and trusting that the person is not telling you

01:52:23to do something in order to bully or humiliate you or have power or control over you, but

01:52:27because they genuinely want to help you, right?

01:52:29Like, I mean, if you say to your wife, this guy you think is your friend, he just wants

01:52:34to sleep with you, it's because you want to keep her safe.

01:52:36And you want to keep her protected.

01:52:38And you want her to not be in embarrassing, difficult, compromised situations.

01:52:42And you, you know, maybe you don't have much sympathy for the guy, but it certainly is

01:52:46better for him to take his mangy ass somewhere else and go pursue a woman who's not your

01:52:50wife or girlfriend or something like that.

01:52:52So you're just desperate for that person to take what you say as gospel.

01:52:57And if you can do that, then you're pair bonded.

01:53:00And if you can't, then, you know, life, you know, life doesn't get easy.

01:53:06You said you want the peace, right?

01:53:07Hey, man, I understand that.

01:53:09We all want the peace.

01:53:10And the peace comes about because we trust our partner.

01:53:13And, you know, basically when they say jump, we say, okay, how high?

01:53:16And they do that with us in some areas too.

01:53:19So I hope that helps in terms of trying to get you the peace that you want, which I think

01:53:23is great.

01:53:33I, I would agree that one of the things that has held me back, not only in terms of relationship,

01:53:42but friendships too, is the unwillingness to delegate judgment to others.

01:53:50Yes.

01:53:51That when a situation arises where it's, I'm right and you're wrong.

01:53:59My unwillingness to reconsider has been a problem.

01:54:05And I do have a tendency to say, I know best or that I'm not going to do what you say because

01:54:16yeah, to do so would be a form of submission.

01:54:19Right.

01:54:20And that is an unproductive attitude.

01:54:23And it's, it has cost me.

01:54:26Well, especially because you also want the woman, you do want the woman to, or the man,

01:54:29whoever, let's just say the woman for the sake of argument.

01:54:32You do want the woman to submit to you, right?

01:54:35And to your arguments and perspectives in some areas.

01:54:40Yes, exactly.

01:54:41Not fully, not a slave relationship, but yes, I do expect to be taken at my word,

01:54:47at face value on certain things.

01:54:49Right, right, right.

01:54:51So it's one thing if you say, I want submission, but I won't do it.

01:54:57That's going to be tough for someone, right?

01:54:59Because then it's like, okay, so you just want power, right?

01:55:03But if you want power over someone and you want things to be equal, then you have to

01:55:07surrender power to them as well.

01:55:09Otherwise, they're just, you're just going to end up with somebody who's kind of broken

01:55:13and half enslaved.

01:55:14And I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend that because a woman who is smart and respects

01:55:23her own judgment, she's not going to want to fight with you on everything.

01:55:26Right.

01:55:29Yeah.

01:55:30You'll also be able to engage in the give and take of a relationship, which are some

01:55:37skills I would definitely benefit by sharpening.

01:55:40And again, not just in romance, but in everything, in friendship, in business and everything.

01:55:50So, yeah, I think, I think that's most of what I wanted to get across.

01:55:53If, if that helps out, is that a decent place to start?

01:55:56No, it's a wonderful place to start.

01:55:58And I did have going back to therapy on the back of my mind.

01:56:01So the punchiness and the power relation thing, it's, to be honest, I'm kind of mad at my

01:56:09therapist now for not bringing it up because we covered fight or flight related to the

01:56:14childhood and my tendency to miss certain things.

01:56:17But that's a brilliant expanding on the concept of fight or flight and the consequences of

01:56:24a broken fight or flight mechanism that I think any half decent therapist would have

01:56:29been able to expand upon.

01:56:32So I might go back, just not to that same therapist.

01:56:36Yeah, I obviously can't speak to what happened in your therapy, but also you may not have

01:56:40fought with your therapist in the way that you fought with me.

01:56:42So it might not have been as obvious.

01:56:43I mean, it's funny because it's almost like you go to the dentist, you say, my gums are

01:56:47bleeding and they say, well, you need to floss.

01:56:48No, I don't.

01:56:49I floss, I floss perfectly.

01:56:50Right.

01:56:51It's like, well, if you're going to go to your dentist, then you might want to listen

01:56:54to your dentist.

01:56:55So like the fact that you were punchy with me, I love you for it.

01:56:58Like, I'm really, I'm really thankful that you did that.

01:57:00That was very honest and direct.

01:57:02And it certainly pointed me in the right direction of ways that I think our conversation could

01:57:05be most productive.

01:57:06And, and, you know, don't, the punchy stuff is great, man.

01:57:10Like don't, I'm not, don't lose the punchy stuff.

01:57:13You know what it's like?

01:57:13It's like if you're really good at throwing a spear and taking down a boar, man, you throw

01:57:19that spear, you take down the boar, you just don't hunt your family at home with a spear,

01:57:23right?

01:57:24If the punchiness is for outside, you know, we are a lion outside, we are a lamb at home.

01:57:29And I think that's, that's the best way to, to, to work it.

01:57:32So yeah, I, I respect the punchiness, man.

01:57:34I'm the last guy to say, don't be punchy.

01:57:36I'm punchy as hell, but just not at home.

01:57:40No, yes, yes.

01:57:41You are absolutely right.

01:57:42The punchiness is a useful tool, but not every problem is a nail, so to speak.

01:57:47Yeah, the course is not in session at home.

01:57:50All right.

01:57:50Will you keep me posted about how it's going?

01:57:52Thank you so much, Stephan.

01:57:53Take care.

01:57:54Thank you.

01:57:54Have a wonderful day and God bless.

01:57:56Bye-bye.

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