My Girlfriend LIED to Me! Freedomain Call In
Hello Stefan,
This is time-sensitive, as I likely will make a decision within a week. Here is some background:
I've been seeing a girl long distance for several months. I am physically fit, have a solid income, and work full time after completing my undergrad. We briefly met on a dating app in college and rekindled the relationship over a year later. Our relationship is long distance, so we call regularly, and I visit each month as my work schedule allows for decent time off.
We share many values and goals, and both come from similar backgrounds—our families are together, and our parents haven't divorced. We don't have political conflicts, and she agrees with me on most values. Both of us intend to have kids, and I see being a father and husband as one of the grandest honors a man can ever have.
The shared values and character traits I perceived in her made me think I had a real catch on my hands.
She recently invited me to meet her family, where I had an excellent time. They all live near each other, so I had a real trial by fire in an extended family reunion. Nonetheless, we all enjoyed each other's company, and her father particularly seemed to enjoy my company.
There is another upside to this situation: Although I am an atheist and she is a Christian, she saw past this. After the first two months, I told her about my atheism. Although unexpected, she was understanding and wanted to continue seeing me. This has been a dealbreaker for people in my past, so her acceptance was significant to me.
Now, here's where I am conflicted. When we met, she told me she was waiting for marriage. I was happy to hear this as I have been as well. It has been a serious struggle for me, but I knew I wouldn't endanger my future marriage over something temporary.
However, after last week's family meetup, she revealed that she is only NOW waiting for marriage. As recently as the beginning of this year, she had not abstained. She has a body count of 3, and in her last three relationships, she has only partially abstained, given her Protestant view of what is and isn't sex. This revelation has left me very conflicted.
I recognize the tentative nature of my situation and wonder if I might not find someone who shares all my values, especially given our age. I wonder if I am asking for too much, particularly from someone who understands my lack of religiosity....
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https://peacefulparenting.com/
Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
This is time-sensitive, as I likely will make a decision within a week. Here is some background:
I've been seeing a girl long distance for several months. I am physically fit, have a solid income, and work full time after completing my undergrad. We briefly met on a dating app in college and rekindled the relationship over a year later. Our relationship is long distance, so we call regularly, and I visit each month as my work schedule allows for decent time off.
We share many values and goals, and both come from similar backgrounds—our families are together, and our parents haven't divorced. We don't have political conflicts, and she agrees with me on most values. Both of us intend to have kids, and I see being a father and husband as one of the grandest honors a man can ever have.
The shared values and character traits I perceived in her made me think I had a real catch on my hands.
She recently invited me to meet her family, where I had an excellent time. They all live near each other, so I had a real trial by fire in an extended family reunion. Nonetheless, we all enjoyed each other's company, and her father particularly seemed to enjoy my company.
There is another upside to this situation: Although I am an atheist and she is a Christian, she saw past this. After the first two months, I told her about my atheism. Although unexpected, she was understanding and wanted to continue seeing me. This has been a dealbreaker for people in my past, so her acceptance was significant to me.
Now, here's where I am conflicted. When we met, she told me she was waiting for marriage. I was happy to hear this as I have been as well. It has been a serious struggle for me, but I knew I wouldn't endanger my future marriage over something temporary.
However, after last week's family meetup, she revealed that she is only NOW waiting for marriage. As recently as the beginning of this year, she had not abstained. She has a body count of 3, and in her last three relationships, she has only partially abstained, given her Protestant view of what is and isn't sex. This revelation has left me very conflicted.
I recognize the tentative nature of my situation and wonder if I might not find someone who shares all my values, especially given our age. I wonder if I am asking for too much, particularly from someone who understands my lack of religiosity....
GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND AUDIOBOOK!
https://peacefulparenting.com/
Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
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LearningTranscript
00:00:00All right you want to start off by reading the email will take it from there.
00:00:04Yes sure you know before we start can i say i want to say thank you for all your content you know i'm younger and kind of.
00:00:13Add some hard times you were really a good you gave me a lot of hope and a lot of tools to face life with reason so i'm.
00:00:22Really want to be a man i am today if wasn't for you so thank you i really really appreciate that thank you that's very kind.
00:00:30Okay so i'm read my letter.
00:00:33So i've been seeing a girl long distance for several months i'm going to include the ages or no yeah ages is fine.
00:00:40Okay i'm twenty four she's twenty one.
00:00:44I gave you a little background about myself but we met on dating app in college we didn't talk after i moved away.
00:00:52I'm about a year she reached out again rekindled i'm.
00:00:58Overall we share many values and goals we both come from similar backgrounds our families are together and our parents haven't divorced we don't have local conflicts we really agree on a lot of that stuff.
00:01:09She's also into peaceful parenting which i really love she agrees with me on most values both of us intend to have kids.
00:01:15I see being a father and husband is one of the grandest honors a man can have.
00:01:20Share values and character traits i perceive in her maybe think i really had a catch on my hands she recently invited me to meet her family i had an excellent time they all live near each other out in sticks and.
00:01:32So is a really big family reunion a very big meeting so but that said it was a really good time everybody enjoyed each other's company and.
00:01:42Say so there's another upside to the situation i'm an atheist she's a christian.
00:01:47She saw the past this i told her after a few months she didn't quite ask but i'm.
00:01:54Although kind of unexpected she was understanding i've had this happen in the past it's been a deal breaker for people i was seeing given my values and.
00:02:04The pick of people you know that's not a deal breaker for me at all and don't mind the christian and i was glad that you didn't mind that i had these views on faith as well.
00:02:14I know here's where i'm conflicted in our first conversation she told me she was waiting for marriage she didn't know my thoughts on it at all.
00:02:22I'm so sort of unprompted but it actually made me quite happy because i am as well.
00:02:28It's been a struggle for me but i knew i want to endanger my future marriage over something temporary like that.
00:02:33So how are my last at the last week's family meetup she revealed to me that she is only now waiting for marriage as recently as recently as the beginning of this year she had not abstained.
00:02:45She's been with a few people her several the last three relationships.
00:02:51Someone recently she hadn't part of this was that she doesn't have she has more protestant view of what sex is you know it's not too uncommon nowadays so.
00:03:03Yeah i was left kind of conflicted it was kind of a shock i don't i'm not really looking for someone that actually has a body count of zero that's not it was just surprising to me.
00:03:12I'm so sorry to be so indelicate but so what that means is she's remained she's abstained from.
00:03:21Regular old sexual intercourse in terms of penis vagina but she has engaged in other forms of sexual intercourse or she's not a virgin with regards to penis vagina sex.
00:03:33I'll keep it brief yeah so i'm she actually has slept with someone that way in that way the first one but after that she said she regretted it.
00:03:43That was when she first got to college and but every relationship afterwards it's been oral with you know.
00:03:50Pretty much every relationship she's had some okay got it.
00:03:54Yeah and so what is her number of sexual partners including the oral three three okay sorry go ahead.
00:04:03Yeah so part of me says so yeah i recognize the tentative nature of what my situation is someone that shares my values.
00:04:14So and also i'm my family history a lot of the men have picked the wrong women and i really want to be sure you know part of me says i'm young and i have time to go and look again you know a lot of the men in my life.
00:04:27Say yeah you should probably should do that a lot of the women in my life say oh no body count doesn't matter at all that's obviously not true but this is.
00:04:36So yeah i don't know it's it's i think twenty one and three is kind of more than i expected but yeah please let me know what you think your advice is truly appreciated so.
00:04:47Right okay so the issue is not as far as i understand it that she had consensual sex is not not great obviously that's not what you're looking for.
00:04:58But it's not as far as that goes it's not a moral issue.
00:05:04Consensual sex is not a moral issue foundationally and again i'm not saying there's no morality involved or anything like that but it wasn't like she said i said i agree like lying is not something you get arrested for.
00:05:16But it is nice and you know that's not the category i was talking about will get to that so the first category is consensual sexual encounters by adults right.
00:05:28So in no way is that a UPV violation right now we can say it's unwise right but it's not.
00:05:35It's not a UPV violation it's not.
00:05:38Evil right to have like if we can say again it's unwise it's like overeating right assuming you have to see the cost of your own.
00:05:46Healthcare it's unwise to overeat but you can't you know you can't go around arresting people for overeating right.
00:05:55Oh yeah okay so consensual sexual activity is not.
00:06:03Immoral however the deception is the issue if i understand this i'm not saying that the sexual activity is not the major issue.
00:06:12But i think that one of the bigger challenges if i understand this correctly and it's your heart so tell me if i'm wrong is that you felt you feel deceived.
00:06:23Yes she didn't actually technically lied to me but yeah it was kind of a shock well i don't know if i would have considered a long.
00:06:31Lying by omission is a sin.
00:06:34No i mean it's wrong if you say things that mislead people.
00:06:42Right and that's wrong it's in in in in some ways it's even worse than a direct lie.
00:06:50Right so there was a there's a youtuber named sandman who once told the story of a friend of his who would go through the garbage.
00:07:02In a bank machine you know when people do their deposits and then throw out the slips and he'd find some guys.
00:07:09Deposit slip with a crazy high balance in like a million dollars or something like that right and then he'd go and ask.
00:07:18Girls out they wouldn't particularly want to go out with him and he'd say well let me at least leave you with my number and he would take.
00:07:26This the banking slip with the crazy high.
00:07:31Bank balance and he would write his number on that if that makes sense.
00:07:38And i suppose it worked to some degree because he kept doing it and i suppose some women would be interested in the fact that he was a millionaire.
00:07:48Although he wasn't right that they would be impressed that he would be a millionaire.
00:07:55And maybe they go out with him and i don't know maybe they'd sleep with him or whatever right.
00:08:01And then they would be upset when they found out he was broke right.
00:08:08Now he would say hey technically i didn't lie to you.
00:08:12Yeah yeah so yeah you can see why i feel the way i do.
00:08:22Well it's it's like a if somebody dresses up as a police officer right.
00:08:28And then they say to someone you have to come with me and and they say later the police officers like hey i never said that i was.
00:08:36Yeah absolutely no i would treat it i would treat her a little bit differently but it was a show surprising to me so.
00:08:46Okay so give me the sort of timeline so i understand the sort of sequence here.
00:08:52The timeline was you meet her you get interested in her and when in that meeting and getting interested when did you.
00:09:00Find out that or when did you have the conversation about sexual activity prior to marriage.
00:09:09That was maybe our second or third call so that was like about four or five months ago.
00:09:17Right okay so she said i'm waiting until marriage now for every man in general that means no sexual activity.
00:09:29Yeah that's what i would think.
00:09:33So she said she didn't say i'm waiting for intercourse until marriage.
00:09:41Yeah right she said basically i'm waiting until marriage and to every man that means.
00:09:48Anyone that means i'm refraining from sexual activity until i'm married right.
00:09:54Now obviously if she kissed a guy that wouldn't be the end of the world or that doesn't bother me at all a rope or two or whatever right but.
00:10:02I think it's fairly safe to say that sexual activity that leads to orgasm is in the category of sexual activity.
00:10:12Okay so she did mislead you and it was a lie.
00:10:19Okay yeah yeah i agree because if you say something that has a general meaning.
00:10:30And then you say i've redefined it that's not the same as telling the truth.
00:10:36Yes like if you say to some woman i'm super rich right and then i don't know if she goes out with you or whatever based based partly on that and then you say no no i i'm i have no money but i'm.
00:10:48I'm rich in friendship.
00:10:51I've written life experiences right or something this is all kind of goofy examples but that would be a lie right.
00:11:00Yeah like the guy who shows up at the bar dressed as an airline pilot.
00:11:04And you know get some woman's number and then she finds out later he's never an airline pilot he's like i never told you i was it's like but you were dressed as an airline pilot come on man don't you give me a break.
00:11:16So that is a lie now i don't know what the story is with the younger generation whether no to me it's no sex before marriage it's not no intercourse before marriage.
00:11:31Yes yeah yeah no i think that the term colloquial means the same thing my generation obviously it follows the trend line there's a lot more promiscuity every generation.
00:11:43But no i don't think that term is really changed in meaning that said i mean you know i could have asked so.
00:11:50I know it's a little indelicate right.
00:11:54Of course yeah not it's not the most enjoyable conversation to say okay so when you say no sex before marriage i'm gonna need some diagrams.
00:12:02Oh yeah hey this is my first time chatting with you please draw it out you know no that's not yeah that's awkward right.
00:12:09Yeah okay so.
00:12:13If you had and it's always hard to say this in hindsight right but if you had found out.
00:12:21That she was had had this oral sex encounters and so on if you found out about this early on.
00:12:30If you'd said look i don't wanna have intercourse before marriage i fooled around fairly you know in fairly.
00:12:38Fairly frank ways but i haven't had intercourse.
00:12:43What would you have thought.
00:12:46You know it's hard to say like you said what but i would have done i'm not so much i don't have the expectation that just given the situation of the market out there you know that that's zero is the goal but had she told me i would have felt a lot better.
00:13:01I might have seen it's long distance.
00:13:06Maybe i would have pursued her gone less out of my way and but i can i was sort of going after her when i thought she was.
00:13:14When i thought this about her at least i think i still think we would be where we are though had she been honest with me.
00:13:20So it's not a deal breaker it's just less attractive is that right.
00:13:26Yeah exactly i'm she she's pretty you know but i know i've seen men in my life choose the wrong girl for looks.
00:13:35She's not not the most she's not the prettiest girl i've been with him probably of my serious relationships the least but i still pretty enough you know.
00:13:44And this made the difference for me i remember.
00:13:47A friend of mine from college a good buddy of mine i he met her and i asked him his opinion cuz i trust him and he's like listen man overlooked the looks she she got everything else you like so and i i very much agreed but it would have been more on the edge you know i really don't know if i would have continued or not.
00:14:04Maybe watch out for the hype man cuz if you get some short queen you might have a short son and that can make life kind of challenging.
00:14:12I'm sorry that i say she was short no no you didn't i'm just i just wanted to throw that out there is a general height so she's just about a little bit shorter than me but i can introduce sorry something happened to your connection in your microphone it just got all buzzy.
00:14:28What's strange can you hear me yeah but it's buzzing like crazy it's very weird okay just check what's going on.
00:14:37Yeah.
00:14:38Disconnected i wonder if it's going to have any trouble i can't i can't do it this way so i will have to do something else you want me to just give you a call back.
00:14:49Let me be sure to do that.
00:14:51All right i think we're back and.
00:14:57Good it's way to start yes so so she's attractive enough and that's fine and you know i mean that that's fine i'm a big fan of physical attractiveness but.
00:15:06You know it's a it's a passing phase and it's a long time to spend you know fifty sixty years is long time to spend someone who just looks pretty.
00:15:15No no peace of mind is worth way more than looks okay.
00:15:19All right so tell me how it came up and how it was discussed this revelation.
00:15:30Sure i'm so i was holding her i mean it's not i don't do anything with genitals or anything but i was holding her and she was maybe she felt guilty i can't quite say.
00:15:43But are maybe she was suspecting but no it is true i haven't done it with anyone else.
00:15:50It has been tough but twenty four you know but.
00:15:53Yeah.
00:15:57So i i she asked me actually and that's how i went down to one.
00:16:02Oh she sorry she asked me if i've been with anyone else is like are you sure you know.
00:16:06I'm sure i like that oh yeah well now you mention it that has been the whole football team but other than that.
00:16:13Yeah no she asked me are you sure it's like oh yeah you know like one two three no no no that's not what happened and i told her like yeah i'm pretty sure and.
00:16:23I can tell you how the conversation went down it was she told me early on in college there is one guy she gave me the gist i was shocked i was kind of bothered.
00:16:32But i thought about it and i said you know sorry hang on i told you there was a this is too fast so she told you.
00:16:39She said there was one guy.
00:16:42Correct okay and that one guy did she say we had sex but not intercourse.
00:16:49No no intercourse so yeah that's a good way of phrasing it yeah no she went all the way she was drunk she told me in college yeah i got a same same old story.
00:16:59But i thought about it like i i've been at the daily market in the last quarter century no if you listen to like those like red pill channels like oh my god i was just he took advantage of it she didn't say that.
00:17:12But yeah she broke up with the guy the night after she tells me i think it's hard to say if i can trust her i believe i can you know but also my intuitions my i know that.
00:17:22I'm human and i even know like my feelings say i can believe what you said i know that you know that only go so far.
00:17:30Yeah so she said it was one guy and i thought about it and i'm like listen if i was in a slightly different situation my life at some point i certainly would have given and i'd be in the same boat you know and then.
00:17:43Later in the conversation she asked sorry but did she say that she was unable to consent because she was so drunk.
00:17:50No she did not so if she was what is the drunk thing have to do if.
00:17:56If it's not rape then she consented right is she saying that she has a diminished capacity consent to consent because she was drunk.
00:18:05I know if you didn't get into this and i'm super great detail but just in general i'm trying to understand the drunk thing.
00:18:17Sure yeah i think it was implied that hey you know i was in my best mind decision making she didn't blame the guy she didn't say it was like she took advantage of her he did say she was pushing or he was she didn't say he was pushing but.
00:18:32I should take responsibility for it and say that she deeply regretted it okay so if she took responsibility for it.
00:18:39How does the drunk thing show up cuz drunk like an excuse i'll just be frank with you drunk sounds like it's an excuse and if it is an excuse then she had a diminished capacity to consent.
00:18:54Yes yeah i see what you mean and.
00:18:58Yeah i mean it is like saying i am not at fault for crashing the car because i was drunk.
00:19:06Yeah yeah right so if the drink was enough that it's an excuse if she was so drunk that it was an excuse.
00:19:16Then she had a diminished capacity to consent and that makes the story a whole lot creepier.
00:19:24Okay.
00:19:26So that's why i'm sort of zeroing in because i'm not saying this is the case with her i don't know but a lot of times women will want the best of both worlds right.
00:19:37You know the old equality when it suits them right.
00:19:40Not all right not all lots of exceptions but some so my question is what i'm sort of trying to figure out is her level of honesty when telling you she'd been dishonest.
00:19:52Yeah so if she said.
00:19:57I had diminished capacity it wasn't my decision in a way because i was drunk right that's one thing.
00:20:09Then that's terrible and and the guy took advantage of her in in a pretty sinister way right.
00:20:15Yes yeah but if she's saying i had diminished capacity because i was drunk.
00:20:24But i take full responsibility and that's a contradiction that's why i'm curious about the drinking thing.
00:20:31Because it sounds like she wants you to think that she had sex because she was drunk and she wasn't really fully consenting and therefore she has less responsibility.
00:20:42But then unfortunately you have to look at her as a victim of course i rate.
00:20:47Yeah which which is not particularly appealing so i'm trying to sort of figure this out if that makes you know i frankly i'd have to ask her maybe you don't need to ask you got your instincts you were there.
00:21:03So what are you trying to do with the drunk story.
00:21:07Trying to listen to blow you know i.
00:21:12I think that's what it was.
00:21:16Okay i didn't get the lesson i mean she's raped so yeah but she can't listen to blow that's the problem right.
00:21:24Because if she left the blow then she did not consent.
00:21:30Okay yeah.
00:21:37Yeah it was a it was like a sensitive thing to discuss with somebody i didn't go in the detail but it's a problem so i'm trying to sort of figure this out right.
00:21:48Sure if she says.
00:21:51Well i was drunk then okay so then you can say okay so you didn't really you didn't really choose it so you're not responsible in some ways in some ways.
00:22:02Because you didn't really could you didn't really.
00:22:05Consent right.
00:22:08Yeah i should i should be excused because i was drunk okay so you're saying you're less responsible because you didn't.
00:22:14Consent because you were drunk but then the guy took horrible advantage of you.
00:22:22So i guess my question is is she saying.
00:22:26I have diminished responsibility but i don't want to be viewed as a victim because you can't have both.
00:22:40That's a good point.
00:22:44So what's your sense did she was she assaulted in some way in other words a man had sex with her when she was too drunk to consent or had diminished consent let's say.
00:22:56Right so what's she drunk enough that she can be forgiven for not choosing it but then we have to look at her the victim of a kind of sexual assault.
00:23:06Yeah yeah the way she described it seemed like she was not blackout but impaired enough you know.
00:23:16Okay so then she was kind of assaulted right.
00:23:18Yeah maybe yeah.
00:23:23Well i i think that if the woman can't consent and you know this is all fuzzy stuff and you know when it comes down to all you know it's not screaming you know like i don't can't say no but but if this is why i'm curious about the drunk stuff.
00:23:38Because people say i was drunk in order to diminish responsibility.
00:23:45And women with regards to sexual activity will say.
00:23:51I was drunk and then they have diminished responsibility for choosing sex right.
00:24:00But if they have diminished responsibility for choosing sex then they had less consensual sex right.
00:24:09I would say non consensual i don't know what the degree is but the degree to which they claim.
00:24:14That they can be excused for their behavior because they were drunk they were drunk is the degree to which the sex is not consensual.
00:24:29I was so drunk i didn't know what i was doing okay then you didn't choose to sleep with the guy yes but then he kind of assaulted you.
00:24:39And we're not talking about legal proofs in a court of law i'm just talking about marcia.
00:24:44Yeah.
00:24:48So how did you feel when she was talking about being drunk and having intercourse.
00:24:55I'm it.
00:25:00And maybe look at it differently you know.
00:25:02It kind of bothered me i didn't see her as a victim honestly.
00:25:10If i got drunk and did that i wouldn't see myself as a victim you know but she had well but it's different from it.
00:25:19Yeah we initiate true yeah well not necessarily men can certainly be raped.
00:25:27But.
00:25:28But women women can have sex performed upon them.
00:25:36When they're largely incapacitated but it's fairly it's fairly tough for a man you know alcohol in the direction and and blood flow and and i guess it can do there is sort of forced forced directions and so on but.
00:25:50It's just more complicated the woman can in a sense i don't like the way it has to be a little different.
00:25:57Yeah the way she told me it didn't seem like oh she was laying on the couch and a guy just started with her that and that didn't seem like the case it seemed more like.
00:26:07Just the way she was describing it as much detail as i've given you is as much detail as i was given well feeling about it detail as you asked for as well.
00:26:15Correct yeah and i'm not criticizing you for that it's a delicate situation but you know i i'm not in the situation so i can be obviously a little more direct and frank about it and.
00:26:26Yeah i'm just i guess i'm concerned about the manipulation part.
00:26:31Yeah and if i didn't ask her which way the way i would like to know about sensual or was it not and if she says well it wasn't hugely consensual because i was drunk it's like well then i have to look at you as having been prayed upon.
00:26:43Yes.
00:26:45And then if she says no no i wasn't prayed upon it's like well then what's the drunk thing got to do with it.
00:26:52Yeah it makes me worried about accusations you know like oh well if you regret it would you accuse me not that i am but you know it's just those things like that it makes me.
00:27:01Well you know the best of both worlds people and in this case it's a woman right the best of both worlds people are disingenuous they are there a little slippery they.
00:27:13There is a circus you know.
00:27:15If she said like let me give you another example if she said he was so hot i just couldn't say no.
00:27:24Right then then she would say i was incapacitated by lust.
00:27:30I had no free will because he was just that hot.
00:27:35Okay then.
00:27:37That would be a little tough to accept right.
00:27:39So she says i was i was less capacitated by i would add someone incapacitated by alcohol.
00:27:47She solves one problem which is of choosing but she creates another problem which is she might have been assaulted in some way right.
00:27:56Okay yeah.
00:27:58So do you think or what's your when you sort of look on back on this is your instinct that.
00:28:05She says she was drunk just to diminish some responsibility but she wasn't too drunk to consent.
00:28:15I think it's the former my opinion on how drunk you have to be to not be consenting is pretty bad so i don't think she was there.
00:28:24Okay but she but so then the question is why would you bring up the alcohol well that's because.
00:28:29She wants an excuse but she doesn't want the responsibility or these the the the issue of of maybe having been assaulted.
00:28:37Yes okay so that's and again she's a young woman and and so i sympathize you know but.
00:28:45That is that is it that is a problem to me and and the problem is it's not insurmountable or anything like that but.
00:28:54What happens at the beginning of the relationship.
00:28:58Has a very very important effect on how things go in the long run.
00:29:04Correct yeah and so the question is to me.
00:29:11How does it work if she in a sense gets away with this.
00:29:18Yeah right if she can just say something like this right.
00:29:27And it's fine it's like okay i get it i accept i understand all this kind of stuff right that's tough.
00:29:33Yes i absolutely agree you know something i was struggling with was she knows this is a value of mine and she knows that it's difficult for me.
00:29:40And i don't know how she would feel knowing that i'm compromising on this and frankly i'm okay with.
00:29:46In certain situations because i feel like there's very few that are left you know but maybe i'm wrong like this.
00:29:56Oh no that are like that don't have a body count at 21 that is like small numbers you know i got but not very common but and as i get older it'll be harder and harder so yeah i'm not i'm okay with you know.
00:30:10Them having a past you know and you're right the dishonesty is frankly what bothers me it was a shock so.
00:30:17Right now i say this with the caveats that she's a young woman and you know it is an attractive young woman it's pretty tough in particular for men.
00:30:29To be frank and direct with her.
00:30:33I mean the truth kind of bends around young women which is one of the reasons it's it's tough to hold them quite as accountable in my view so it would be her father's job.
00:30:47To talk to her about this and say okay if the alcohol was an issue then we need to start looking into legal action if the alcohol wasn't an issue that you can't use it as an excuse.
00:30:59Yeah.
00:31:04So okay so not not i mean in my view not a deal breaker but you'd have to you'd have to be pretty firm i think and say this can't be part of our relationship this this having it both ways can i think.
00:31:19Yeah.
00:31:22Okay alright so.
00:31:26Then the question is.
00:31:29You found out about the first guy at the party and sorry how long you were holding her so you were sort of there right.
00:31:39Yeah yeah okay and it's also not probably it's also not entirely accidental that she tell you when you were there rather than at a distance because absolutely yeah she's with you and there's all that happiness and excitement and all of that sort of stuff right.
00:31:53Yeah okay.
00:31:55So i'm so i asked her about.
00:31:58Ten minutes you know hey are you sure that was the only one you know because i i know that i multiply by three you know with women sometimes yeah i was really really want to be sure and then i'm like okay and you know.
00:32:12I got i was like okay i think that's not a deal breaker and then towards the end of the night she asked me i don't think she was asking is if.
00:32:21She wanted us to do it but she asked to clarify maybe i can't quite say but she asked me okay what about oral sex you know.
00:32:30And i was like it's easy to misinterpret that question.
00:32:34Sure yeah yeah fair yeah she she said when it comes to waiting till marriage because she knows that's what i want and that's what both of us want what about this and i'm like.
00:32:43Yeah that includes that and she said okay red line and i'm like wait wait wait wait stop.
00:32:50Sorry what is red how many times.
00:32:52Oh red line is in we're not gonna do that sort of thing in our relationship until marriage you know.
00:32:57So sorry she says what about oral sex and you say that's a that's that's a no no and she agrees with you.
00:33:04Yes she says okay agreed.
00:33:07Sorry who said red line.
00:33:10She did.
00:33:11So sorry i'm trying to follow the conversation i'm sorry if i miss something so yeah.
00:33:19She says what about oral sex and you said what.
00:33:24I said yes yeah i was i was it was sort of a snarky like yeah that's included yeah so okay then so that's what i said then she said what.
00:33:35Then she said okay that's a red line is in we're not going to pass that is it for clarification right.
00:33:42Okay so she said oral sex is an absolute no no before marriage.
00:33:49She was asking me and i clarified and then she said okay agreed.
00:33:55No but she said red line didn't she she did yeah so that's what was confusing me so she said red line as in.
00:34:03That is a line i will not cross before marriage.
00:34:07I think she meant more in our relationship no no otherwise she would have said not with you.
00:34:16Yeah no no i was the one shooting her down like that's what the conversation when you say.
00:34:22You are the one shooting her but what i was saying was she was asking to clarify for the future and i said no i'm not interested in that.
00:34:33Does that make sense i'm i thought i had it now it's gone again okay let's go back over the combo again.
00:34:38So you're sitting there you've had the conversation about her and the drunk intercourse right yes okay now.
00:34:47Also i assume that the drunkness did not mean that the man didn't use protection right but anyway okay so yeah.
00:34:53You have the conversation about the drunk intercourse and then at some point later in the evening is that right.
00:34:59Yeah.
00:35:01She says what about oral sex and you say no that's included no oral sex before marriage either and she says red light.
00:35:11She says quote got it red line as in she understands.
00:35:15Also got it it's a red line for you or it's a red line for her or both for me for me i believe that's what you meant that's the that was i'm going to go when she says red line she's not saying that's unacceptable she's saying.
00:35:28I've got it for you.
00:35:31It's a red line.
00:35:33Yes.
00:35:35Okay so that's so so then my next line right although she's not clear she's not saying i get it it's a red line for you.
00:35:44Yes when she says red line it sounds like yes i agree.
00:35:50That's unacceptable in which case you would think that it hadn't happened right.
00:35:55Yeah.
00:35:58So this seems to me like another manipulation again i'm not saying it's a deal breaker but it doesn't seem to me like another manipulation because red line sounds like oh yeah i agree.
00:36:10Yeah like a man says to his wife no matter how bad things get.
00:36:15I'll be honest i don't think that's the man's decision i don't care how bad things get we don't have affairs and she's like red line.
00:36:22Right then the man thinks that she says yes i agree with you affairs are completely unacceptable but if she's actually saying oh no that's just a red line for you i can have all the affairs i want that would be.
00:36:33Deceiving right to be deceptive.
00:36:41Okay so she says red line and is this this is it sounds like you were reading something it wasn't text so this is just voice like talking in face to face right.
00:36:49Yeah yeah okay so then she says red line got it okay so that's unacceptable.
00:36:58And then when you know i'm not an idiot so i asked hey so like wait wait wait how many times have you done that with a guy like that's a that's an obvious omission you know.
00:37:09And she's like.
00:37:12I forget how she phrased it at this point it was a little bit difficult but it should be a long story short the last two relationships she's been in so two people and.
00:37:22She said yeah but i don't think it's really sex.
00:37:26Really so then if you marry her and then you give and receive oral sex from another woman that's not cheating.
00:37:34Yeah that's a good point stuff this is all post clinton stuff right so i mean this is ancient for you young people but of course bill clinton received oral sex from monica lewinsky.
00:37:44Repeatedly and then his defense was that's not really sex and so then a whole generation of young liberal women i'm not saying she's liberal.
00:37:52I grew up with this bizarre defense of oral sex is not that's not sex but of course every every woman knows.
00:38:01That if she comes home and she finds her boyfriend or a husband giving oral sex to another woman she's going to be outraged and upset and enraged and he cheated and right.
00:38:09So everybody knows that right and generally this the sex stuff is the stuff you can't do in public.
00:38:16Right so you can kiss in public right you can have passionate kissing in public right to have oral sex in public.
00:38:22So it's sex i mean of course it's sex i mean this is ridiculous to think otherwise right.
00:38:30Of course yeah okay so so she said with two other guys right now she said relationships you did you get any sense of how long these relationships were.
00:38:39Yeah.
00:38:42One of them was only about four months another one.
00:38:46It seemed to be a few months i can't say if it's a year or not and i do know she told me the longest relationship she was in was a year so one of the three was a year.
00:38:55I don't know which one so yeah part of a year giving or receiving or both oral sex with a guy.
00:39:06Yeah i didn't ask how much frankly i didn't know how much it mattered to me how many times it was i think just with another person is.
00:39:14Yeah but yeah and she did she go through a phase of lapsed christianity i'm trying to figure out.
00:39:21Oh no that's the weird thing well she she's no longer catholic so her family was raised catholic now she's a prod.
00:39:27So yeah she's a non-denominational i think she's the only one in her family so maybe that's related i can't quite say.
00:39:35Okay now does she think that god views it as not sex.
00:39:45I think so now in that conversation i think so because the way she phrased it and she says the bible doesn't say anything about it and i'm like are you kidding you know but yeah.
00:39:57Okay so she thinks that god looks down with approval at women who commit to not having sex before marriage who have oral sex with guys.
00:40:12Yeah that's how she phrased it to me in the moment we've had a follow-up conversation about this last night actually.
00:40:20And we can go to that if you'd like but.
00:40:24Well so is it the case for her now that.
00:40:28Oral sex even if you if you if you wanted oral sex let's say you guys continue on your relationship and it did you know you become boyfriend and girlfriend i'm not sure if you are you are you are at the moment or not.
00:40:39Yes she asked me so when are you gonna ask me to be my girlfriend or ask us to be official just before this conversation.
00:40:45So just before this conversation it's good thing we waited yeah right yeah no i was saying about waiting okay so hang on so if if you.
00:40:55If you decided that i'm not saying you should or i'm just just a theoretical right so if you said.
00:41:02I'm fine with oral sex now i'm good with oral sex now let's do it what would you say.
00:41:08She would probably be okay with it okay got it so for her it's not a red line anymore.
00:41:15Correct yeah okay so at least she's not hypocritical that way like i let my last boyfriend's have this sex but you as the good guy have to wait right that would be yeah that's what i told her i'm like listen i mean i'm waiting but you're telling me you did it with every guy before me.
00:41:31And now you're telling me you're waiting that's that's offensive you know so hang on hang on what was that last thing now she's waiting.
00:41:38Yes now she's waiting that that was the impression that's what i told her you know sorry i thought i thought you said that if you wanted oral sex she would do it.
00:41:50Yeah that was waiting or not i don't know so confusing sorry yeah that was i said that to her last night and.
00:42:01I don't think she would.
00:42:07Turn me down is what i'm saying like i would bet like nine so she's not waiting.
00:42:12Correct yeah okay so the waiting is on you and she'd be okay to she'd be fine to go ahead right correct yeah okay got it.
00:42:23So i'm a bit confused then when you say she's fine with everyone but not me.
00:42:30Yeah because that sounds like she's not waiting.
00:42:33Yeah.
00:42:37Okay so is there a reason why this is so confusing because i'm normally pretty good at this stuff but i feel like my head is spinning no no sorry stuff that's just on me it's a little bit emotional right now so well then tell me about your feelings.
00:42:49Sure.
00:42:52You know i like i've been having trouble sleeping and eating you know.
00:42:56You know there's a there's a line that i think you have to your definition of love you know involuntary attraction of virtue i have a involuntary revulsion to a vices not all vices but like sometimes i've pursued women that i shouldn't you know not in a long while every time i got close.
00:43:20Yeah exactly and every time that i got close i literally felt like i was going to vomit right.
00:43:25I'm so i get that feeling now talking to her sometimes.
00:43:32And i think it's just because it's so recent you know.
00:43:38Well but when did you first find out about her drunk sex a few days ago okay all right.
00:43:47Yeah just a few days ago how many months a week ago now knowing each other.
00:43:52Four months right okay got it got it.
00:43:58And when.
00:44:02I mean i can't tell you what to think or feel but my first thought would be.
00:44:08When she did confess after being kind of misleading when she did confess to the sexual activity.
00:44:18After you've been together for four months and obviously you'd fallen for her pretty hard did she acknowledge it as at least a little bit deceptive and apologize.
00:44:30I could have been more clear i can see how you would understand that i could see how you could see it that way or i wasn't particularly clear and the reason you would suspect that she was not telling the truth consciously is that she brought it up tentatively right.
00:44:47Yes okay so when she did she did do that she did apologize for being unclear okay but it wasn't a great apology you know i felt like i was lied to and i don't know if she knows that she really accepted she lied to me you know.
00:44:59So what did she say regarding i know it's hard to remember sometimes verbatim or maybe you have one of these great memories for this stuff but what did she say.
00:45:09About misleading you.
00:45:13She said i'm sorry i should have told you earlier and i should have.
00:45:24Told you this before i asked you to make us serious you know make us committed so.
00:45:30She then said if you'd like to break it off now given this that's i should understand and that was the conversation more or less.
00:45:42Okay and did she ask you how you felt or what you thinking or no okay.
00:45:51And how did you feel.
00:45:56I'm.
00:46:03It kind of challenge my natural optimism about the world you know the world okay yeah the world seriously yeah she's got the whole world in her hands.
00:46:13Yeah yeah no i mean.
00:46:20Yeah it's just like i did my bedding really well and i was surprised it was all you know it's like man if i do my best how did i miss this you know that's how i was feeling.
00:46:32Was there any indications prior of anything deceptive about her.
00:46:40There were two there's only really one one little thing.
00:46:47When she first told me she really emphasize that she did not want.
00:46:52She thought it was wrong to bring a kid in this world irresponsibly and she really really didn't want that and i thought it was a very who said it was wrong to bring.
00:47:01She did she did she said it was wrong to bring a kid into the world irresponsibly right.
00:47:07Yes like with the wrong guy yada yada so.
00:47:10I mean that's almost a tautology it's it's bad to be bad it's wrong to be irresponsible okay.
00:47:21In that it wasn't deceptive no no no i'm just saying this is the only possible thing that i can think of right now that i could have picked up on earlier and well.
00:47:27You know oral sex doesn't create kids so that's kind of a that's a strange thing to bring up so.
00:47:34Oh so sorry this was so that the it's wrong to bring a kid into the world irresponsibly that was related to the oral sex.
00:47:42I think so yeah so let me explain so.
00:47:48My motivation is that i know that decreases the likelihood of a successful marriage i think it has certain impacts in the brain.
00:47:58I'm a numbers guy and so her motivation seems to be that.
00:48:03When she told me about this this was it said she said that she cares a lot about children and she doesn't want to bring one into the world irresponsibly so they have a good upbringing.
00:48:14Which to me seem like a strange thing to bring up in a way in the context of saying your weight this was when we first met you know in the context of saying.
00:48:23I'm waiting for marriage because in the back of my head i'm thinking this will oral sex doesn't bring kids in the world you know.
00:48:31So that was just a thing in the back of my head i never asked about you know not that i really should have anyway so.
00:48:38Okay got it got it.
00:48:41Alright do you know why her prior relationships ended.
00:48:46I'm.
00:48:50The first one was because of the sheet he slept with her and she did not make it clear that she did not want to do that before marriage.
00:48:57The second one i don't know i didn't like what don't quite remember i think she told me and the third one the guy moved away.
00:49:06So he was going to the military or something and you don't want to do that so.
00:49:11So i'm back to being confused about the first one.
00:49:16Yes she brought night after she broke up with him correct.
00:49:23But she said she broke up with him because she didn't want to have sex before marriage.
00:49:28Yes but she chose him right because she wasn't assaulted right.
00:49:33Yeah because breaking up with a guy who has sex with you while you're half passed out or unable to consent.
00:49:40Because you don't want to have sex before marriage makes perfect sense to me.
00:49:45Yeah if she consented i mean i could understand breaking up with the guy but breaking up with the guy because you chose to have sex with him.
00:49:55I am i'm back to be confused about this again.
00:49:59Yeah yeah i am too because if he had sex with her and she didn't consent and he took her virginity right when she didn't want to give it.
00:50:08Because she wanted to wait until marriage then that's a horrible thing right.
00:50:13Absolutely yeah okay so she broke up with him because.
00:50:19Well the way i could see it as having gone down is the way i interpreted it was.
00:50:25If i was in a relationship and i made it clear i was waiting and my partner kept pushing me and.
00:50:32I did it i gave in or something i would be very offended that they didn't also help me achieve that goal so i would break up with him too and you know that's that's all i saw you would break up with them before you would consent right.
00:50:44Yes i would break up before i can send it but even afterwards i'd be like i had i don't know you didn't respect my boundary you know because it's a two way street you didn't respect my boundary starts to get back into assault territory.
00:50:58Yeah yeah if she said yes i want to have sex then she obviously was not assaulted right.
00:51:07But yeah i mean that's with me now she could say i was so grossed out at me enthusiastically handing over my virginity then she could say that right.
00:51:20Yeah yeah but she didn't.
00:51:22Yeah.
00:51:23So again we're paying you know let's just say hypothetically stephen let's say that she did get assaulted it would be understandable that she would not want to talk very much about it so maybe we need to discuss more i don't know but.
00:51:36Yes now why is it that women.
00:51:42A lot of women have it if she was let's say that she was sent or whatever it was right so what i'm obviously there's there's that but what's one of the main reasons why women don't want to talk about that with boyfriends or potential boyfriends or life partners.
00:52:05I think they know that a certain level that it's not just a number you know that actually does matter so i know the assault part.
00:52:19Oh the assault thing oh my gosh okay let's say that she was part sexually assaulted.
00:52:26Right why would she have a particular hesitation talking about that with you.
00:52:35I don't know there's a few reasons i guess but what are you thinking i'm not her.
00:52:44Well there is the question of the issue of being perceived as damaged goods.
00:52:51Yeah.
00:52:52So one of the reasons that men will often recall and i'm not this is not a moral judgment of anything i'm simply talking about causality right so one of the reasons that men recoil from women who've been sexually assaulted is it usually indicates.
00:53:10Some significant sexual dysfunction or or predation in their childhoods right.
00:53:17Yeah and secondly it has a significant potential to disrupt pair bonding and to disrupt normal healthy sexual relations in a marriage.
00:53:31Yes yeah right because if the woman was assaulted and in a sense her body was weaponized against her and she has a horror and flashbacks or whatever it is right.
00:53:46Then that is going to interfere with the normal natural healthy sexual functioning in a relationship.
00:53:53Yeah.
00:53:58Right i mean i remember a guy i knew once telling me that his wife had been sexually assaulted in her youth before they met and he felt he said i feel i've been paying for this for the last 20 years.
00:54:10Oh.
00:54:16Also it means that the woman.
00:54:19Is not was not street proofed or did not have usually a strong guardian male around a father or could be on calls or whatever right.
00:54:31To keep her safe.
00:54:37And that means that there's probably some significant family dysfunction.
00:54:42Hmm.
00:54:44If that makes sense yeah that's a good question that's a very thing i should look into for sure i will say like anecdotally after meeting her family and it's only one meeting you know and the way she talks about them.
00:54:55She really has a lot of reference for a father and the way i'm what i met them i mean it was far happier than my family one of the happiest families i've seen so maybe maybe i just a good first meeting you know but i can't quite say.
00:55:08Well i mean as you know families can look a whole lot better than they are right.
00:55:13Correct yeah okay but in terms of you know female sexuality is is a beautiful wonderful force of nature but it's easily turned awry through predation.
00:55:27Yeah.
00:55:28And you know that sort of beautiful wonderful pair bonnie casino female sexuality is a lot of time based upon being relaxed and comfortable and secure and.
00:55:37If a woman has been preyed upon it's can be pretty hard to get to that mindset.
00:55:43Yeah.
00:55:50You know it's like trying to make out with an army veteran in the movie saving private ryan like watching that movie it's not gonna happen right.
00:55:58Yeah yeah.
00:56:00So so one of the reasons why women have a tough time talking about being preyed upon.
00:56:08Is because of the issue that the man looks down the tunnel of time and says okay so if she was assaulted or preyed upon.
00:56:16And you know i can have sympathy for all of this of course right but in and you know but you can have sympathy with someone without wanting to marry them right and then the man looks and says okay so.
00:56:27What is this gonna do to my sex life for my life.
00:56:38I mean am i gonna have to wrestle with this for the next half a century.
00:56:44Absolutely right yeah.
00:56:46And so that's again yeah i was bringing up the alcohol and it's like oh you know you can dial down.
00:56:54Your responsibility but that dials up your trauma.
00:56:59Yeah that's true.
00:57:02So that's another reason why and this.
00:57:07You know of course you know she should never have been in a situation where she's even she was she's ever less than fully consensual.
00:57:20Right which means you know this is the conversation that the parents have with both of their children like both both sexes going.
00:57:28To college or moving away or whatever it is it's like you know don't go to parties too much don't drink too much keep your wits about you.
00:57:38Recognize this predation right leave if anything weird happens don't be alone with a guy who's drunk at a party don't be alone with a woman.
00:57:46At a party like just basic common sense it used to just all be common sense stuff right like the mike pence rule but in a way but for for universities right.
00:57:54So the question is how did she end up in this situation and again this is not blame the victim and I don't even know if she was a victim.
00:58:04But yeah it's really about prevention philosophy is about prevention and so did she have the conversation.
00:58:13I did her father have the conversation with her and say here's how young women can get into trouble.
00:58:20I don't be alone with people at parties don't drink too much right.
00:58:28Don't go into the courtroom right stay with the crowd leave if you feel anything uncomfortable if the guys getting too drunk disengage.
00:58:37This is all just basic protection 101 right and it's the same thing for men young men.
00:58:45I don't be alone with a woman don't initiate any romantic or sexual contact with her when she's been drinking make sure she's keen on whatever it is you're doing right.
00:58:58All this stuff and so if she did end up in a situation so she did she say she was at a party.
00:59:07Okay so how do you have sex at a party.
00:59:12I mean I've been to a lot of parties in my youth.
00:59:15I mean do you sneak off to some bedroom and lock the door to get the guy come with protection did like how did.
00:59:23How does it happen.
00:59:25Yeah yeah and like I said like a living room and he has sex with her right I assume that that because that would be a party from hell right people would stop that right.
00:59:35Yeah so how how does this actually happen.
00:59:41She must have gone away with him some place have been like a small country party you know it's with friends at the.
00:59:47The lake house or something you know I don't know but but then you're in a situation where there's alcohol and private bedrooms.
00:59:55Yeah right so obviously if and this is another thing if she wants to not have sex before marriage which I think is great.
01:00:03Then why is she putting herself in situations where there's it's it's late at night there are private bedrooms and she's drunk.
01:00:12Yeah.
01:00:14Right it's it's a choice me stephan is that like I value maybe she doesn't take her values very seriously I don't know.
01:00:24Well or it could be so either her father didn't give her any of these instructions which is you know parenting 101 right.
01:00:34Yeah I mean you like I never got those instructions but I kind of figured it out you know I have a right no but she says she has a good family right.
01:00:41Yes yeah okay so.
01:00:47The question is if she didn't get these instructions that the parents are woefully negligent.
01:00:55I mean especially these days right there are crazy STDs around there are stalkers you can get your nude self photographed when you're passed out and it can be shared all over social media that can be unjust accusations legal issues getting kicked out of university like there's massive massive problems.
01:01:15Around unfettered sexuality.
01:01:18And alcohol and drugs right young people have said we don't want any chaperones and so the chaperones have to be the HR department the provost and the police.
01:01:32So you have to have those conversations with your kids.
01:01:36It also means that her boyfriend's.
01:01:40If her boyfriend was taking advantage of her.
01:01:44When she was drunk then she has a problem choosing quality people if she told him repeatedly she does not want to have sex before marriage and he had sex with her when she was drunk then he's an asshole.
01:02:00He violated her.
01:02:00Yeah.
01:02:02Right.
01:02:02Now that means that his family didn't have the basic talks about self-protection with him.
01:02:10Because that could have gone seriously sideways right.
01:02:13Oh yeah it's true everything yeah false young men's lives well real one is terrible who yeah I mean who knows right.
01:02:20These are the things it's kind of impossible to prove right this is why these situations are so horrible right it's kind of impossible to prove it's he said she said.
01:02:30That's not enough usually to convict in a court of law but it sure as hell can get you blacklisted and kicked out of university right.
01:02:37Yeah.
01:02:38So it means that.
01:02:41Either she or he and probably both.
01:02:45Put themselves in horribly dangerous situations.
01:02:50And that speaks to either like let's just talk about her right so then either.
01:02:55Did not give her these instructions which is I don't even understand how that's possible these days everybody knows that young people are out there sex crazed and and you know there's all of this internet weirdness and like it's just bizarre right and I mean so there is a lot of danger out there in the sexual world particularly for young people right so either her father did not give her these basic protections.
01:03:16Or.
01:03:17He did but she didn't listen.
01:03:21Yeah.
01:03:27Now.
01:03:29If she had this massive issue which is this a huge issue right she has this massive issue the question is how do we get her out of it.
01:03:37Now.
01:03:39If she had this massive issue which is this a huge issue right she has this massive issue the question is did she talk to her family about it.
01:03:56Yeah.
01:03:58In other words how deceptive is she.
01:04:00Has she I mean did she talk to her parents about her decision and obviously parents shouldn't get details or anything like that but her parents are catholic right.
01:04:13Yes yeah.
01:04:14And now and catholicism there's no oral sex asterisk to get out of no sex before marriage as far as I understand it.
01:04:22Yeah I was raised catholic okay that's true.
01:04:25Oh did she talk to her parents about her decision to engage in sexual activity against their teachings against their values against what saves her soul in their eyes and did she say already now you say oh but that's none of the parents business and it's like well I'm not sure about that entirely right especially if they've given her counsel against these kinds of things right.
01:04:50Right especially if they've given her counsel against these kinds of things right.
01:04:55Yeah if she's and and also it would be for her father to help her process this and her mother to of course right to help her process this and also to teach her how to talk about it going forward.
01:05:08Right and to say look if you were not able to give consent we need to protect other women from this predatory young man right.
01:05:20Yeah because if he if he has sex with women who are too drunk to consent he's an asshole and should face the consequences.
01:05:28Does that make sense yeah and if she did if she did consent then they have to say that you cannot use alcohol as an excuse.
01:05:39And you should never tell anyone that alcohol was the reason if alcohol was the reason this guy prayed on you and we should deal with that somehow right on exactly know how if alcohol was not the reason then you shouldn't talk about it and make excuses.
01:05:53Yeah.
01:05:58And it sounds like she did not have these conversations.
01:06:06Yeah i don't think so okay so she has kept this information from her parents who raised her with particular values right.
01:06:16And that seems important which means that there's a whole set of my possible that i didn't raise sorry go ahead.
01:06:23Yeah.
01:06:24It might be possible if you go through it she's been confirmed so she's been through the whole catholic education that would be taught to you it's impossible not to be right but.
01:06:34I did notice we went to have have a meal and there was like no prayer said before the the dinner so it seems that they're more relaxed on their faith you know.
01:06:44So that's possible that maybe the dad never had to talk about it or.
01:06:49It could have just been at the church said it but the family didn't know but sorry the talk i was talking about was not the no sex before marriage talk.
01:06:57Although that would be wearing yourself to avoid these problems yeah yeah like don't do things that i don't play russian roulette.
01:07:06Yeah i don't play russian roulette there are you know and this is something honestly that you know we as men we learn this pretty early right.
01:07:14You smack talk you trash talk you're gonna get beaten up.
01:07:19Yeah right right now so i mean don't we learn that pretty early on that there are really bad consequences to making bad decisions.
01:07:27And of course no i was laughing because i agree right so men we learn this pretty early.
01:07:35That you know i mean this is what you sort of notice on the internet that people say the kind of things that they never would say in person and certainly for men right because for men we grow up as boys.
01:07:46With the constant threat of violence now i don't mean that people are shaking their fists in us every day.
01:07:53But if you push too far if you know everybody know that you insult someone's mother are you you know you just go too far and you got a fist to the face right.
01:08:06So we learn to moderate our behavior.
01:08:10Because we live under the threat of blowback.
01:08:15And girls don't at least in the same way.
01:08:20And so this is why is it talk with girls is even more important because we learn early on that we have to be careful we have to be cautious.
01:08:29We have to be alert we have to be situationally aware keep her head on a swivel that's just being a guy right.
01:08:37And it's not like it's not a paranoid life because once you learn the rules it's pretty relaxing and go and have fun and all of that right.
01:08:44But you don't trash talk someone's mother or you don't trash talk their girlfriend you're right you don't you know i mean how to how to boys deal with terrible rumors being spread about them they beat people up.
01:08:58Right how to girls deal with it yeah well they spread other rumors or like there's just not the same kind of physical blowback right.
01:09:06Does that make sense yeah.
01:09:08So that's why it's more important because the stakes are way higher when you're a young woman than they are when you are a little boy.
01:09:16What's that happens a little boy you get a bloody nose maybe you lose one of your baby teeth or whatever not good but it's not the same as sexual assault.
01:09:24So that's the question did she keep this from her parents to her parents now now again I understand people say ah but you shouldn't be talking about your sex life with your parents is like well I get that except that the sex life is theological and your parents raised you to love God and Jesus right.
01:09:42Correct.
01:09:44Correct.
01:09:46And it sounds to me like she never told her parents that you lost her virginity in a consensually questionable manner.
01:09:59Now my guess is that she wanted to in the moment and regretted it later.
01:10:06Yeah other than saying that which is tough to talk about with a new guy right.
01:10:11Yeah right because if she says to you right if she says to you I was very enthusiastic enthusiastic about sexual activity but boy did I regret it later.
01:10:21How comfortable does that make you as a male.
01:10:24Not not at all yeah yeah.
01:10:27Right because if she's in the other thing too if she has told people this story now you don't know this guy right but if she has told people this story.
01:10:36That she was in part she had sex because she was drunk which is the claim of a lack of consent at some level if you told this story to people who know who the boy is that's pretty bad right.
01:10:55So if it was consensual but she's saying it only happened because I was drunk or I have diminished responsibility because I'm drunk which meant I had diminished consent.
01:11:08Then she's in order to excuse her own behavior she's half painting this guy as a half predator.
01:11:17Yeah no definitely how does that make you feel.
01:11:20Oh it makes me feel terrible you know I don't know what what could you say about me what happens when things get tough.
01:11:28Right right well I have regret with you now again you can say we'll be married by then or whatever it is right.
01:11:34But yeah but even then later that's not good yeah yeah.
01:11:38Now so that's her that's her side of things as far as I can see and so I appreciate you going into this level of detail awkward though the topic is I get that so.
01:11:47Now let's talk about your side.
01:11:51Okay so how long into being interested in her and talking with her did you find out she was Christian.
01:12:01A very early on yeah so I also step in a full full consent or full clarity I am absolutely guilty as well.
01:12:11Okay I mean I'm pretty sure you would be aware of this but let's just get it for the record right so by the way she yeah I know you're and it took you how long to tell her you were an atheist.
01:12:21Take me two months right.
01:12:24So I'm not sure what kind of moral high ground we're trying to get you to if you don't mind me correct.
01:12:32Yeah no I got some work to do myself stuff so you know I mean this is a caption right.
01:12:38Absolutely I totally agree okay and I've I've seriously apologize for that she told me you didn't really lied to me I mean because I have the values and stuff I'm like I absolutely did lie to you you know that's not true I'm sorry that's lying by a mission right if she's Christian.
01:12:55Obviously she wants to race for kids Christian she has all of those values and wants to go to church and and so on and if you're not Christian yeah that's.
01:13:03It's kind of important right.
01:13:06Yeah yeah I mean it's different if you're I don't know it's puppy love and you're 14 or whatever or 15 but but it you know this is an adult relationship yeah I'm an adult married yeah okay.
01:13:19So what's going on with that.
01:13:25Are you still there stuff I am I'm sorry I was just saying what's going on with that.
01:13:28Oh I'm with why I didn't tell her the truth okay gotcha gotcha yeah yeah actually when I was in college I did have a relationship like this maybe it was brief but we very much and see someone I very much liked and I told her kind of too early I think honestly I mean it was a little bit too harsh I was immature and did not say it but you know when I when that happened before I decided.
01:13:56Maybe I should wait to tell someone and when I consulted my parents on it they told me don't tell her.
01:14:04And I'm like that is not possible like that is what until the great how long you supposed to keep yeah I don't know what the hell they wanted you know yeah like that's impossible and also I'm not living a lie that's crazy so no yeah I mean you are living a lie but only for two months.
01:14:21Yeah correct correct so yeah that's the logic man if you have any more questions go go ahead please okay well.
01:14:34So you both send.
01:14:37Yeah and guess what that's what happens that's life right.
01:14:40I mean nobody's perfect we all been the truth for you sometimes we all I mean we aim to get back into the right place and certainly you guys have both come clean to each other right yeah okay so in my view.
01:14:58In my view.
01:15:01It's the cause everybody wants to get offended at the symptom but I'm interested in the course right.
01:15:08I am too right so the reason you lied to her.
01:15:13What's because you really wanted the relationship to continue because you liked her so much.
01:15:19Yes and the reason she lied to you was exactly the same.
01:15:25Yeah.
01:15:27Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us you both lied.
01:15:35As a compliment.
01:15:38Yeah.
01:15:39Yes you really saw some potential you really seem to like each other a lot you share a lot of the same values.
01:15:47And you're young right so you know really I mean she's newly emerged from childhood just couple years right so you both.
01:15:56Lie to each other and not about the most important things right.
01:16:01It's not like she has four children and and it's not like she's got a secret drug addiction and and has donated blue right I mean we're not we're not talking about like red for that matter these days right so we're not talking about all of that can we talking about you know fudging and falsifying.
01:16:19And hedging a little right I mean not about unimportant stuff but it's not like she says.
01:16:25I really want to have children when she in fact doesn't want to have children or you say I really want to get married when in fact you have no intention of getting married.
01:16:35Yeah she fudged because she likes you.
01:16:39And then I did the same and you did the same right and you know I say this without any particular criticism I say this without you know obviously honesty is better and you got there.
01:16:51Yeah.
01:16:55And so I think.
01:16:58Do you have a monopoly set.
01:17:02Yeah okay so you got a monopoly set and in the monopoly set I think it's in community chest it's been a while since I played with my daughter but in the monopoly set.
01:17:13There are two cards called get out of jail free cards.
01:17:18Right.
01:17:20So you take those from your monopoly set.
01:17:24You sit down with your girlfriend.
01:17:27And you say here's one for you.
01:17:31Here's one for me.
01:17:33You told a lie by omission that was important but not a deal breaker.
01:17:39I told a lie by omission that was important but not a deal breaker.
01:17:44Here we get to one card each.
01:17:47Right and we we can take these cards on the condition that we tell the truth from now on.
01:17:55And we get out of jail for sure go forth says Jesus and sin no more.
01:18:04Here's your card here's my card.
01:18:08Let us commit to the truth.
01:18:09I accept that you lied to me because you like to be so much I hope that you can accept that I lied to you.
01:18:15Because I like you so much.
01:18:20Here's your get out of jail free card is my get out of jail free card but we got to tell the truth from now on.
01:18:28Yeah can we make that commitment to each other and so on does that make sense.
01:18:33Yep.
01:18:39She's not perfect she has a few skeletons in her closet.
01:18:42She's not perfect she has a few skeletons in her closet.
01:18:45You're not perfect as I'm not perfect right we all have a couple of skeletons that we're hesitant to bring up with others right.
01:18:53Yeah and we're hesitant to bring up with these things because we don't want other people to define us by what they think it means right.
01:19:04Yeah.
01:19:05I was not super keen on telling the woman who became my wife.
01:19:10I don't talk to my mother.
01:19:13Yeah right because of what it might mean or what the I mean this is true much more true like 25 years ago than it is now.
01:19:22It's become a little bit more acceptable but it's what you know if if you say like I'm estranged from my parents it sounds like we had bad sinister creepy intolerance you know.
01:19:33Judgmental you know volatile my god if he can do that to his own mother how can he commit to any woman you know what I mean like there's all of this stuff right.
01:19:41Yeah.
01:19:43And I don't want to be defined.
01:19:46By what other people think it means.
01:19:52Now of course I did tell her and I told her why and all of that and we had long conversations about it and so on.
01:19:59And.
01:20:00And.
01:20:02Things move forward right.
01:20:04Now what you don't want I think and I don't want to speak for you but I'm guessing tell me if I'm wrong you don't want to be defined.
01:20:13By being an atheist because of all the baggage that comes with it.
01:20:19Yeah.
01:20:20Right like I don't need people socially and say hey I'm an anarchist.
01:20:25Yes yeah.
01:20:26Because of all the baggage that comes with it that's not true but has been hijacked for sort of very specific reasons right.
01:20:32Yeah and you understand the logic I mean I never expressed it but you can imply you know I wanted her to get to know me and my values first you know.
01:20:40Yeah.
01:20:41But yeah yeah.
01:20:42Yeah still not right.
01:20:43If you'd opened up with I'm an atheist and she sees like 666 written in fire on your forehead or something.
01:20:49Of course.
01:20:49That's not that's not the way to move forward right.
01:20:53Yeah.
01:20:54Because you know frankly a lot of atheists are fedora wearing a a moral a holes right.
01:21:00Other fags so yeah.
01:21:02Yeah so I would say that.
01:21:06I understand but I also understand from her perspective.
01:21:11She made decisions she now regrets.
01:21:15Now you know show me a man alive or a woman alive who's never made a decision they don't regret and I'll show you a liar in the same breath right.
01:21:23So she made decisions that she regrets.
01:21:26But she does not want to be defined in your mind by those decisions but that's a little bit what's happening right because you said you can't sleep and you can't eat and so on and we'll talk about that a little bit but she doesn't want to be defined.
01:21:39By youthful indiscretions right.
01:21:42Yeah.
01:21:45Yeah honestly things have improved since last night the conversation I had but.
01:21:51Because you know vague spiritualism or karma or.
01:21:57Astrology or you know whatever right kill some sort of collective unconscious stuff more women tend to be mystical than men.
01:22:08And so whether it's true Christianity or it's some other thing there is this challenge.
01:22:15Now it's a good deal comparatively well I don't I don't know exactly why this is the case other than men tend to interact with reality directly and women tend to interact with reality through the medium of other people.
01:22:30Right so so men deal with hunting women deal with cooking so the men have to go out and earn resources in the objective world.
01:22:42And women then manipulate those resources to provide right.
01:22:46Men have to go hunting for food women can produce food from their from their breasts right so.
01:22:52Men tend to focus more on objective reality clarity logic and so on and women tend to be a little bit more mystical because.
01:23:01Women.
01:23:03Survive through relationships men survive through reality does that make sense.
01:23:09Yes yeah so it doesn't really matter fundamentally about atheism versus Christianity I mean I get it matters from a procedural standpoint but what really matters is understanding that men and women are just different and if you're going to look for.
01:23:24A woman who's as objective and clear and rational as a man you probably gonna have to dig up and reanimate.
01:23:33I rent and she can't give you kids because she was like a one-legged wanderer of no childless.
01:23:39No no children even if she was that would be a terrible idea that I love her writing horrible horrible person so.
01:23:48I mean women and men are different and listen women's mysticism can be very helpful to men I know this sounds odd because I'm a dedicated rationalist and so on right but the thing is that.
01:24:02There's an old saying the heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing I think that comes out of pascal how to process the heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing right.
01:24:12So there been times when my wife we meet someone and she's like who don't like him.
01:24:18Right and I'm like because I'm kind of optimistic I'm they seem fine to me right and she's always right they read it yeah so so we're we're a perfect team.
01:24:31So the fact that women tend to be more instinctual the mystical is of massive benefit to men.
01:24:38Now how that manifest so you could say oh but it manifests as as as.
01:24:44Astrology and it's like I you know in a sense it doesn't really matter how it manifests it's just a they have a witchy superpower these checks.
01:24:54They have a witchy superpower.
01:24:57And yeah men who don't listen to it don't do well.
01:25:04And so the fact that she's christian and your atheist is formalized in a sense it's formalized femininity and masculinity.
01:25:13Yeah I agree and if you hold the same morals.
01:25:19And she's open to like men don't pray and in general they pray pray less than women.
01:25:28And yes prayer has significant benefits in life.
01:25:33Because prayer and in sort of the way that I view it is this communing with the unconscious which operates at six thousand times faster than the conscious mind and has fantastic.
01:25:43Understandings and like you know you've heard me do the sort of dream analysis on the show right and turns out that the unconscious just has absolutely incredible wonderful things to say.
01:25:52About things as a whole.
01:25:55And so yeah and so I'm like how many how many philosophers rational philosopher can you imagine I ran trying to do a dream analysis.
01:26:03I don't know this bullshit so so yeah but but it empirically you can see people get relief from it and that there is real truth in it and you can get real insights from it.
01:26:14And so all of that.
01:26:18Is is important that aspect of life.
01:26:21And I've always like tried to do my body the unconscious conscious that quote mysticism which is instincts you can't prove but which have value right.
01:26:30You know it's like if you say to your kid your kid says I'm thirsty and you're like prove it.
01:26:35Objectively it's like I can't but I still feel it right and and yet it's important right those those are the instincts that keep us alive right.
01:26:44So now the if you respect.
01:26:49That she communes with less objective.
01:26:56Mindsets are less objective way of thinking.
01:27:01And accept that and that's formalized into Christianity where she she prays and and she gets inspiration and and so on.
01:27:09If you accept that as a way of thinking that has benefit and compliments the rational thinking and if she accepts that you're more rational thinking and objective thinking has value the compliments are more mystical or subjective kind of thinking.
01:27:24I think you're a very powerful team.
01:27:27Yeah but female instincts are quite powerful and less available.
01:27:35Then male instincts.
01:27:37Male instincts around danger of female and that is obvious female instincts so male instincts about benefits and dangers that are more obvious female instincts are about benefits and dangers that are more subtle.
01:27:49Yeah like a woman can catch a venomous glance from across the room and be on the alert men don't notice that stuff as much but it's really important as well right because sometimes lies are destroyed by force and sometimes lies are destroyed by reputation attack and women are much more.
01:28:05Sensitive to and concerned about that and they get that through some of the mystical stuff.
01:28:10So this is not saying that the mysticism is objectively true and as a sort of rational methodology I get all of that but it is I don't ignore my dreams.
01:28:20And I certainly don't need to ignore the instincts of the people around me and in particular the women.
01:28:26And that there's just for me an accumulation of evidence that they just pick up on things that I don't notice and they're almost always right.
01:28:36And my daughter had this it's it's wild to see this from a very early age.
01:28:40My daughter had this from just being a couple years old it was wild to see that she just picked up instinctually on people and she was right.
01:28:51And I was wrong about the majority of those people from like three or four years old.
01:28:58Yeah and it's like okay I guess we can call that God because I don't get it but I'm just a dude right yeah I don't get I don't get what body cues you get I don't get what what tone inflection she get but she just was able to assess people with ridiculous levels of accuracy.
01:29:15You know from from the age of walking on what's it was just wild to see and you know people can get mad at me if they want I'm not saying you would but that's just the fact that I've seen and she is right and if someone can explain to me how she's right I think that'd be great I'm not saying it doesn't exist in a rational universe.
01:29:32But I am saying that.
01:29:35I can't explain it it does exist in a remedy it's not mysticism it's not reading people's souls with a barcode of her spirit or something but I don't understand the process this is again back to the thought of blink phenomenon right.
01:29:49And so if you look at her Christianity as her respect for subtle wisdom and instincts great.
01:30:00In the same way that it's wise to respect your dreams and assume they have something of value to offer you right.
01:30:06But if you just say well she's just crazy and superstitious so on then you actually gonna well then you might be looking for a woman who's a man right.
01:30:14Yeah that's not my objection at all yeah my my my meeting in that was.
01:30:20Technically what the hell do you have the kids you know like all that stuff but you need to decide that ahead of time and I obviously I don't know what you should decide.
01:30:28I did remember I remember dating a woman who is Christian and we had conversations about this and my approach was well I don't believe in God but.
01:30:38I am not going to I'm not going to tell the children that God is is is proven true real and valid right because I can't say things that are not true for me on the other hand.
01:30:52If they choose to become religious as they get older I would certainly not hold that against them.
01:30:58Yeah yeah and so it and of course I much agree with that and that idea well and and she's like oh well so we can't talk about God at all I'm like oh no we absolutely have to God is a foundation of force of the universe in people's minds right so yes of course we will teach them and I've taught my daughter all about religion and all about Christianity and all about the Bible stories old and new she knows them down to a tee because they're very important and powerful stories and all that right so but.
01:31:28I tell them as stories.
01:31:32Yeah so if you have that discussion that does put your kids in a challenging position though right because if they're socializing right then that's so there are there are challenges.
01:31:48But there are good challenges to have because you want to have challenges on methodology not on values right I mean if you can say we both want to go to Vegas then how you get there is less important right so we both want to have you know reason and virtue and love and and and all of that and you then you can get that.
01:32:10And if you have the kind of conversations up front so yeah well we'll talk about God and we'll say we have different opinions you guys can certainly decide for yourself as as you age and so on I think that's all fine what's really going to matter is your kids relationship with you and the mother of your children.
01:32:33And if that's a great relationship I think the rest of it kind of falls into place at least that sort of in my my experience if you and your wife have a great relationship and you and your kids have a great relationship everything else can be worked out pretty easily.
01:32:48Yeah I think you're right so hopefully we'll see where it goes but that's a good methodology on that.
01:32:55All right is there anything else that I can help you with this we close things down.
01:32:59You know I mean everyone has questions but no I think for this issue thank you very much stuff and I really appreciate it it's been relatively helpful I don't mind to sound needy have I been helpful but I mean I think we got to some fairly good places and I sympathize with you both and you know it is very tempting to fudge things a little until you get to know people that's a double-edged sword and I'm glad that you guys have been honest about it and I'm certainly glad that you know if you get to get out of jail free card and commit to moving forward I think that'd be great.
01:33:27With honesty.
01:33:28Yeah yeah no stuff and it feels like Socrates being the Oracle so really appreciate it.
01:33:33Very kind very kind.
01:33:34All right well keep me posted about how things are going and I wish you both the very best and I really do appreciate the call today.
01:33:40I will man really appreciate it.
01:33:41Thank you.