Freedomain Call In - Husband and Wife
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Husband:
We are married for three years now, we have two daughters, and we had a really good relationship. I would say, we were in love--we are still in love--and we also had a really good world view. We had almost the same opinion on everything, we did not have any argument and so on. And even before our first daughter was born, we thought we also have the same view on how to raise the child and so on.
But when the daughter was born, I don't know, we had some slight disagreements. In general, we still had the same general view on how to do it, but we had individual agreements here and there, maybe related also to the other family members and so on. But it was nothing so serious.
But then after two years, we had a second daughter--she's now seven and a half months--and after that I think it became really hard for some reason. We started to argue for no really apparent big reasons. I think the worst of it all is that we argue in front of our daughters, really, really big arguments sometimes. I feel this is really terrible, the worst thing we can do for them, and for us as well. Anyway, the thing we argue in the first place is not good for me, from my point of view, And the fact that we do it in front of the daughters, it's really unimaginable for me. Before two years ago, I would never have thought we would be doing it. And my concern is I absolutely don't know what I could do differently. I thought I'm really doing my best in the relationship, in taking care of the daughters.
I have a feeling that the more I try, it's even worse. So there must be something wrong I do. Perhaps I should do less, I don't know. It's really concerning because the matter of the arguments, the topics are really crazy. It's like nonsense. say I bring a smaller plate to serve the breakfast. It's non-argument. I'm pretty sure the reason for the argument is not what the argument is about. So there must be some deeper problem. I just don't know what it could be. What I want to say also in front is that I think that my wife is starting the arguments more often than I do.
I want to help, but at least this is my opinion. And maybe it's not true, but I have to find out somehow. And since my wife is listening to your podcast, yeah, I must admit I never really listened. So she brought this idea to call you.
Wife:
As my husband said, seven months ago after the daughter was born, I think things changed a bit for me. But, it's not because of the daughter, it's because other things, especially in my family, happened. And I think it might be the cause. I didn't have a good relationship with my mother. We were always very distant....
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Get access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, and the 22 Part History of Philosophers series!
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Husband:
We are married for three years now, we have two daughters, and we had a really good relationship. I would say, we were in love--we are still in love--and we also had a really good world view. We had almost the same opinion on everything, we did not have any argument and so on. And even before our first daughter was born, we thought we also have the same view on how to raise the child and so on.
But when the daughter was born, I don't know, we had some slight disagreements. In general, we still had the same general view on how to do it, but we had individual agreements here and there, maybe related also to the other family members and so on. But it was nothing so serious.
But then after two years, we had a second daughter--she's now seven and a half months--and after that I think it became really hard for some reason. We started to argue for no really apparent big reasons. I think the worst of it all is that we argue in front of our daughters, really, really big arguments sometimes. I feel this is really terrible, the worst thing we can do for them, and for us as well. Anyway, the thing we argue in the first place is not good for me, from my point of view, And the fact that we do it in front of the daughters, it's really unimaginable for me. Before two years ago, I would never have thought we would be doing it. And my concern is I absolutely don't know what I could do differently. I thought I'm really doing my best in the relationship, in taking care of the daughters.
I have a feeling that the more I try, it's even worse. So there must be something wrong I do. Perhaps I should do less, I don't know. It's really concerning because the matter of the arguments, the topics are really crazy. It's like nonsense. say I bring a smaller plate to serve the breakfast. It's non-argument. I'm pretty sure the reason for the argument is not what the argument is about. So there must be some deeper problem. I just don't know what it could be. What I want to say also in front is that I think that my wife is starting the arguments more often than I do.
I want to help, but at least this is my opinion. And maybe it's not true, but I have to find out somehow. And since my wife is listening to your podcast, yeah, I must admit I never really listened. So she brought this idea to call you.
Wife:
As my husband said, seven months ago after the daughter was born, I think things changed a bit for me. But, it's not because of the daughter, it's because other things, especially in my family, happened. And I think it might be the cause. I didn't have a good relationship with my mother. We were always very distant....
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LearningTranscript
00:00:00 Can you hear us? Hello?
00:00:01 Yes, yes, I can hear you fine. How are you doing?
00:00:03 We are well, thank you.
00:00:05 Good, good.
00:00:06 Thank you for calling us.
00:00:07 Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure.
00:00:09 So, yeah, I'm all ears.
00:00:11 How can I best help?
00:00:12 What can I do for you?
00:00:14 So…
00:00:16 You begin.
00:00:17 You begin.
00:00:18 Well, I must say we misunderstood your message,
00:00:21 so we did not really prepare well for this time.
00:00:25 So I will a bit improvise, right?
00:00:28 I will try to summarize what we wrote to you
00:00:31 and also what I think is the issue,
00:00:34 and maybe my wife will jump in when I say something
00:00:38 that she doesn't think is right, right?
00:00:41 So, in general, we are married for three years now.
00:00:46 We have two daughters,
00:00:48 and we had a really good relationship, I would say.
00:00:51 We were in love.
00:00:53 We are still in love, I would say.
00:00:55 But…
00:00:57 And we also had a really good, I call it, world view, yeah?
00:01:03 Like we had almost the same opinion on everything.
00:01:07 We did not have any argument, and so on.
00:01:10 And even before our first daughter was born,
00:01:13 we thought we also have the same view
00:01:16 on how to raise the child, and so on.
00:01:19 But when the daughter was born,
00:01:22 I don't know, but we had some slight disagreements.
00:01:28 I can't really think about some example, yeah?
00:01:31 In general, we still had the same general view on how to do it,
00:01:37 but we had disagreements here and there,
00:01:39 maybe related also to the other family members, and so on.
00:01:43 But it was nothing so serious.
00:01:46 But then, after two years, we had a second daughter,
00:01:51 and that was roughly seven months ago.
00:01:54 She is now seven and a half,
00:01:56 and after that, I think it became really hard for some reason.
00:02:01 We started to argue for no really apparent big reasons.
00:02:06 And I think the worst of it all is that we argue in front of our daughters.
00:02:12 Really, really big arguments sometimes, yeah?
00:02:17 I feel this is really terrible,
00:02:22 the worst thing we can do for them, and for us as well.
00:02:26 Anyway, the thing that we argue in the first place is not good for me,
00:02:31 from my point of view.
00:02:33 And the fact that we do it in front of the daughters,
00:02:37 it's really unimaginable for me.
00:02:41 Before, two years ago, I would never have thought we would be doing it.
00:02:46 And my concern is I absolutely don't know what I could do differently.
00:02:53 I thought I'm really doing my best in the relationship,
00:02:59 in taking care of the daughters, in basically all of it.
00:03:04 And I have a feeling that the more I try, it's even worse.
00:03:11 So there must be something wrong I do.
00:03:14 Perhaps I should do less, I don't know.
00:03:19 It's really concerning because the matter of the arguments,
00:03:24 the topics are really crazy, it's like nonsense.
00:03:29 Let's say I bring a smaller plate to serve the breakfast.
00:03:34 It's non-argument, yeah?
00:03:37 I'm pretty sure the reason for the argument is not what the argument is about.
00:03:44 So there must be some deeper problem.
00:03:48 And I just don't know what it could be.
00:03:54 What I want to say also in front is that I think that my wife is starting the arguments
00:04:02 more often than I do.
00:04:04 I want to help, but at least this is my opinion.
00:04:11 And maybe it's not true, but I have to find out somehow.
00:04:17 And since my wife is listening to your podcast, I must admit I never really listened.
00:04:23 So she brought this idea to call you.
00:04:27 And yeah, well, not sure if you would like to know any details about anything,
00:04:36 or do you want to add something?
00:04:40 Yeah, pass it to your wife.
00:04:42 Yeah, I feel like as my husband said seven months ago after the daughter was born,
00:04:48 things changed a bit for me.
00:04:51 But I'm sorry, but it's not because of the daughter.
00:04:58 It's because other things, especially in my family, happened.
00:05:05 And I think it might be the cause.
00:05:08 Maybe I can tell you about it, because after I didn't have a good relationship with my mother.
00:05:14 We were always very distant.
00:05:17 And we tried to, me and my husband, we decided to have a relationship with her,
00:05:23 but like just see her on occasions.
00:05:28 And, you know, that way it worked for us when we were alone,
00:05:33 just two of us together or with one daughter.
00:05:36 But after my second daughter was born, my mother visited us unexpectedly
00:05:43 when I was the first day from the hospital.
00:05:47 And it was really shocking that she just came here.
00:05:51 She didn't let us know even one hour in advance.
00:05:54 And she just came here and she wanted to bring us some soup and she wanted to see the baby.
00:06:01 But she made our toddler daughter, who was two, not even two at the time, she made her cry.
00:06:09 And then she made me cry.
00:06:11 And I realized, I don't know, I thought, I mean, I think from that moment,
00:06:17 I became more angry with my husband.
00:06:20 And I think maybe I expected him to be more protecting of me during that time,
00:06:27 that he would not let anyone we didn't want visit us.
00:06:32 But I know it's not his fault, because it's my mother and I kind of had the relationship with her.
00:06:40 I didn't ever really finish the relationship.
00:06:43 But the worst part after this unexpected visit was that she made all of us cry.
00:06:50 Basically, it was a really horrible visit, really short visit.
00:06:53 And after that, she could just apologize and just say like, look, I came unexpectedly.
00:06:58 I made your daughter cry. I'm sorry.
00:07:01 But she sent me a really horrible message.
00:07:04 And basically, ever since I have not talked to her.
00:07:08 And I don't, I think it's better not to have a relationship with her.
00:07:14 I feel better. But it's not something that is finished for me,
00:07:22 because now I have a feeling that she can call me any time and just start talking to me again,
00:07:27 because I did not finish. I didn't, I don't know what to do with that relationship.
00:07:32 I don't know how to like, what to expect.
00:07:36 I don't know if she can contact me again or not.
00:07:39 I never told her not to contact me ever again. Maybe I should do that.
00:07:43 But it just feels like it's so open.
00:07:46 And my husband, because we were talking about it a lot with my husband,
00:07:52 and he called her and he told her, like, because I said if she wanted to apologize,
00:07:57 she would have apologized already.
00:07:59 But my husband called her and he talked to her and he explained to her that I'm really hard about it.
00:08:06 And that if she wants to be in touch, she has to apologize to me first.
00:08:11 And then she has to let us know in advance before she comes for a visit,
00:08:15 because this was not like an okay visit.
00:08:18 Yeah. And then she said she will think about it and that she would like to apologize.
00:08:23 She needs some time to apologize, like to think about it.
00:08:26 But she never contacted me. So now I feel like it's really open and she can really contact me anytime she wants.
00:08:33 It's been seven months. She has not.
00:08:36 So I think it's good, but I think we should somehow finally, like, you know, close it.
00:08:44 And I don't know how to approach it because then it makes me look at the relationships with even my husband's family
00:08:52 and, you know, some things that are not ideal.
00:08:55 And I don't know how to deal with that because my husband is really like, he agrees with me about my mother and maybe about my father.
00:09:05 But it's difficult because I have siblings.
00:09:07 So we cannot if we start talking to her and my father, then I still have siblings that I like to talk to, but they still have the relationship.
00:09:18 So it will really exclude us from any family gatherings, etc.
00:09:23 And my husband likes those gatherings. And yeah, I think that's it.
00:09:31 Maybe, can you ask some questions?
00:09:34 Yes. Listen, I don't want to sound rude like I'm some sort of brick wall, but I also want to make sure I get the full story.
00:09:41 So I'm listening very attentively just so you know.
00:09:45 We didn't disconnect. I'm not on a roller coaster.
00:09:49 All right. All right. Listen, I appreciate that. And I'm very, very, very sympathetic.
00:09:54 This is very tough when you have kids, you have a difficult mother, it's a complex family situation.
00:10:01 So, you know, my heart goes out to you both. And I'm really sorry that this is happening at the moment.
00:10:09 I'm sure we can do some useful things to discuss it. And with your permission, I'm not going to use your names, of course, but, you know, just the husband, the wife to the wife.
00:10:20 History with the Mutter, history with the mother, please.
00:10:27 Yeah, so my mother.
00:10:30 And you can take your time. There's no rush. You can take your time.
00:10:33 Thank you. So my mother was raised in institutions since she was two years old.
00:10:41 I don't know. How is it called for children who are from not so good families? I don't know.
00:10:47 She wasn't orphaned. She was put into child protective services.
00:10:51 Yeah, I think I don't know why she ended up in the institution, but I can imagine that it was really bad conditions or bad treatment.
00:11:00 She never talks about it. And she thinks like it was the best thing for her to be raised that way.
00:11:09 But, you know, since she was two years old, I cannot even imagine how difficult it had to be.
00:11:15 So for this, she always kind of had my sympathies, because when you read about this sort of stuff that somebody is raised in an institution, like, you know, the brain development is just not standard.
00:11:29 And even for those conditions, my mom, I think she's a very strong person.
00:11:37 And she I think she did quite well with her life.
00:11:42 But she's a nurse, and I think that will tell you a lot, because she likes to take care of people physically.
00:11:50 But I think she doesn't know how to connect with people on different level.
00:11:55 She will give you everything she can, and she doesn't ask you if you want that or not.
00:12:01 But then you have your own opinions.
00:12:05 She just she just doesn't get it. And she doesn't know me at all.
00:12:09 Like, yeah, she really doesn't know, doesn't know me.
00:12:14 And I would say it's more like she doesn't care to know you.
00:12:20 She would never call and she would not be able even able to say where you lived, which towns or what jobs you had.
00:12:29 Yes, yes. She she just is not that way.
00:12:33 She would not know a lot of information about me.
00:12:36 And this is not the most important to know my addresses and stuff like that.
00:12:41 But she just doesn't know me as a person.
00:12:45 I think she thinks I am like that person.
00:12:50 Which is really painful.
00:12:52 She thinks you're a bad person.
00:12:55 But I think the...
00:12:56 Sorry, sorry, we just we just we just had a big a big thing there because we went from I mean, there was a lot of information.
00:13:02 And what you said, no problem. I'm happy to drink from the fire hose.
00:13:06 But tell me why she thinks you're a bad person.
00:13:13 I don't know.
00:13:15 Yes, you do.
00:13:17 No, no, you've heard these shows before, right?
00:13:20 So, you know, I mean, you're the only one who can know other than her.
00:13:24 And we probably wouldn't get the truth from her. Right.
00:13:26 So. So, yes, I think she doesn't like me because I was telling her the truth and she didn't want to hear it.
00:13:38 I think from very early on, I was really critical of her and I still think I was right.
00:13:44 And she hated that.
00:13:46 And what were you critical of her from early on?
00:13:49 Well, because my parents also sorry, my parents had three children together and they got divorced after my brother, who is the youngest, was born.
00:14:04 He was only two or three years. I was about 11.
00:14:08 And yeah, because my father was rather wealthy.
00:14:19 And my mother was like, I don't know, she was kind of like a child sometimes, I think.
00:14:25 So when when my parents separated. When I was watching their arguments, for example, like my father is definitely he was cheating on her.
00:14:37 She was cheating on him as well afterwards.
00:14:39 But I think that she was the one who was more unreasonable in the arguments.
00:14:47 And I think a lot of arguments could have been like saved if she didn't provoke them.
00:14:56 And I was always like more on my father's side, although now I realize I see it.
00:15:03 Thanks to your podcast as well. I see that he's definitely not the saint one here.
00:15:09 But yeah, I think because every time she had some problem, I just told her what it is and she didn't like to hear it.
00:15:17 And yeah, I think I think because of that, she doesn't really like me a lot.
00:15:23 And sorry, go ahead.
00:15:26 No, I mean, no, it's OK.
00:15:29 Well, I mean, what was she like as a mother?
00:15:32 How did she discipline if she did?
00:15:34 How did she give feedback?
00:15:37 Did she play with her kids?
00:15:39 Did she enjoy your company?
00:15:41 How was she as a mother overall?
00:15:43 I think she really wanted to be a mother.
00:15:46 And she when we were little, she was giving it her all.
00:15:50 But. When the relationship of my parents got worse and we were getting older and we formed some opinions, she could not connect to us anymore, or at least to me.
00:16:04 And somehow we were really I don't know how to say it.
00:16:10 I feel like they didn't care about us.
00:16:12 They really didn't know us.
00:16:13 They didn't know what we like.
00:16:16 She at some point, I feel like the parenting stopped.
00:16:20 And sorry, how old were you when you felt that happened?
00:16:24 Around the divorce, I think, 11.
00:16:28 And how long how long were they not getting along for?
00:16:32 Oh, as long as I can remember, as long as I can remember.
00:16:36 And this is also I think that that's what stresses me a lot during the past six months that I feel like I'm behaving like my mother to my husband, which is.
00:16:50 Oh, no, I got that.
00:16:51 Yeah.
00:16:52 I mean, the fights over nothing and especially the youngest kid has been born.
00:16:55 And I get.
00:16:57 Yeah.
00:16:57 I mean, those parallels, I think you don't need my insight to see those parallels.
00:17:01 I mean, hopefully we'll see it.
00:17:02 Yeah, I just don't know how to stop it.
00:17:04 Yeah, no.
00:17:05 And it's hey, look, it's great that you see it.
00:17:07 That's that's a that's a good thing.
00:17:09 A lot of people don't don't see it.
00:17:10 So, OK, now you have done a wonderful job, a very eloquent job of not answering my question.
00:17:17 So how was your mother in terms of discipline?
00:17:21 And did she did she hit did she yell?
00:17:23 Did she give you timeouts?
00:17:25 Did she or was she more peaceful?
00:17:27 How did she parent in terms of like the guidance and the instruction?
00:17:33 She didn't she didn't like hit.
00:17:39 Actually, no.
00:17:41 When when they were getting divorced, she slapped me several times when I was arguing with her, like on my face.
00:17:51 But that was yeah, that was during the divorce and that I think it lasted a few years, like when I was when she was disagreeing with me, she would slap me.
00:18:07 And sometimes like she moved her hand.
00:18:11 I remember that.
00:18:14 I moved and she was just like, oh, I didn't like sometimes I was like afraid she would do that.
00:18:20 And I when I saw the gesture, I moved and she was not going to do that.
00:18:24 She maybe she was just turning around, but I never knew if she will be upset or not.
00:18:29 And it happened several times.
00:18:31 So.
00:18:33 And how often was she aggressive or how often would she hit you?
00:18:38 I think she was more aggressive after the divorce.
00:18:41 And it happened, I don't know, maybe ten, twenty times, like I don't know, like not.
00:18:54 Not every day, definitely not every week, but maybe every month, I think maybe.
00:19:00 All right. And was she a yeller?
00:19:04 Did she raise her voice?
00:19:06 Yes. Yes, she did trace her voice.
00:19:09 And how extreme was she at yelling?
00:19:12 Like some people, their faces go purple.
00:19:15 You can see the veins in their necks and they really go nuts.
00:19:18 And some people it's not that bad.
00:19:20 And how was it with her?
00:19:23 I don't think it was like completely nuts.
00:19:28 It was like medium.
00:19:30 It was not to.
00:19:32 I don't know, she screamed, but it was not like crazy.
00:19:38 And also I remember one incident.
00:19:41 I don't even know that one incident that she got so annoyed with me or so really mad at me once that she started hitting me a lot.
00:19:54 She didn't care where she will hit me.
00:19:56 And I remember thinking, like, wow, if I do something, I will kill her because I was about 14 and I thought, like, wow, I cannot do anything because I was so upset about it that I let her beat me without doing anything because I was afraid that if I react, I will kill her.
00:20:16 And it scared me that she is not afraid about the same.
00:20:19 Because she wasn't she was really afraid.
00:20:22 Like she wasn't afraid that you would kill her.
00:20:25 No, she was afraid that she will not kill me.
00:20:28 Okay.
00:20:30 Got it.
00:20:31 I could feel the rage from her.
00:20:33 It was really scary.
00:20:34 Yeah, I didn't tell you because I just thought about it, actually.
00:20:39 And it was like she was in rage.
00:20:41 And that happened once.
00:20:43 And I told her, like, never do that again.
00:20:46 Like, I will not leave it just like that.
00:20:50 It was really bad.
00:20:52 So that happened.
00:20:54 That happened once.
00:20:55 I was 14 and then or 15.
00:20:57 I don't know.
00:20:59 But after that, I didn't really like I lived a lot with my father.
00:21:04 And, yeah, I didn't live much at home after that.
00:21:09 So I was just like seeing her some weekends.
00:21:12 But I was like trying to keep peace.
00:21:15 And I didn't at that time after the divorce, I really had a bad relationship with her.
00:21:21 So very often when I saw her, we had some arguments.
00:21:25 But as long as I could remember, I was preferring spending time with my father and his new wife.
00:21:33 But I felt more at peace.
00:21:35 And actually, the new wife, I have a lot to say about her now.
00:21:39 But at that time, she was the person who was basically substituting my mother because she was I thought she saw me.
00:21:48 She liked me.
00:21:49 She knew what I like.
00:21:51 She helped me a lot in life.
00:21:53 So I know she is still the woman who married a man with three kids.
00:21:59 But at that time, she was really nice to me, like compared to my mother a lot.
00:22:06 So.
00:22:07 Right.
00:22:08 Okay.
00:22:10 And with your father?
00:22:14 My father.
00:22:17 So my father, he's very distant.
00:22:20 The whole my whole childhood, he was doing career.
00:22:24 He was very successful, but he was not much home.
00:22:29 He spent mostly like the weekends.
00:22:32 I remember many years he was there just for the weekends and some exceptions.
00:22:38 Like but he used to work abroad even like so he was coming only for weekends.
00:22:42 And the relationship we had, I don't think there was a relationship and there is a relationship.
00:22:51 But like he took us to do a lot of sports during the weekends.
00:22:55 Like he was trying to, you know, because he was not there during the week.
00:22:59 So he tried to take us out a lot and we did a lot of activities and stuff like that.
00:23:03 But honestly, I don't think there is a relationship with him at all.
00:23:10 Like he knows he knows me more than my mother.
00:23:15 But I cannot even now when I, for example, when I tell him like, look, I have some problems with your divorce.
00:23:22 I told him several times and basically he just he doesn't want to listen to me.
00:23:29 He's quite aggressive, telling me like, oh, no, the worst part was your mother had it the worst.
00:23:36 And I'm like, look, you had three children and you really think that the wife had it the worst.
00:23:41 And he's like, yes, yes, she had it the worst.
00:23:43 And he just doesn't want to.
00:23:44 What do you mean by sorry?
00:23:45 What do you mean by had a divorce?
00:23:46 Does that mean she started the divorce?
00:23:49 The divorce was the hardest on her, not on the kids.
00:23:53 Oh, the hard.
00:23:55 OK, got it.
00:23:56 Got it.
00:23:57 Sorry.
00:23:58 OK, got it.
00:23:59 Got it.
00:24:00 Yeah.
00:24:01 So, I mean, now we have a relationship.
00:24:03 If you can call that a relationship, we see him once in a while.
00:24:07 He likes to like we all can go to the playground with our daughter.
00:24:12 But I mean, we don't talk about anything important, really.
00:24:17 I think the strangest thing is the relationship between the father and mother.
00:24:21 I know them just five years.
00:24:23 But they actually are friends now.
00:24:26 Yeah.
00:24:27 And this is really for me really strange because they even there was even a lawsuit.
00:24:33 I hear.
00:24:35 Yeah.
00:24:36 My parents had really bad divorce and they had they they didn't talk together after the divorce.
00:24:43 So even about raising the kids, they just didn't talk together.
00:24:47 They just like children.
00:24:49 They didn't talk together because they were both hurt.
00:24:53 And now they are talking, but we are all adults.
00:24:57 So, you know, it's like, why are you talking?
00:25:01 Yeah.
00:25:02 OK.
00:25:03 OK.
00:25:04 So they were never able to put their children's needs first.
00:25:08 No, no, no, no.
00:25:10 Got it.
00:25:11 OK.
00:25:13 I should also mention that all three of us were quite overweight because we were raised a lot by my father's parents.
00:25:22 Who that's quite ironic because my father's parents, they used to be really good looking when they were young and they took care of their appearance a lot.
00:25:35 They also made my father feel fat.
00:25:39 My father, who was never fat.
00:25:41 I saw the pictures from his childhood, so he was never really overweight or anything, but they made him feel fat.
00:25:47 They made him feel like he has to always work out, always look the best, always perform at school very well, at job very well, you know.
00:25:57 And then when they were older and taking care of us a lot, they were already overweight and they were feeding us a lot of sweets.
00:26:09 So I was not really fat, but I was chubby.
00:26:13 My sister as well and my brother was actually quite a fat baby, I would say.
00:26:19 And when I see the pictures, it's really sad to see that.
00:26:23 And my father was never able to confront the parents.
00:26:27 He would more confront us and tell us, like, look, you should really be on diet.
00:26:31 And we are like, yes, but we are like kids.
00:26:35 You know, how can you tell us to be on diet and not tell your father to not give us sweets?
00:26:40 So that's also part of the mess.
00:26:46 Right. OK. Now, from 14 onwards, you said you spent more time with your father. Is that right?
00:26:52 Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:26:54 You were on the boarding school.
00:26:55 Yes, I was in a boarding school, but the school was a bit closer even to my father.
00:27:02 I used to go to spend most weekends with my father and his wife.
00:27:11 I think some weekends also with my mother, because I had friends in that city where my mother lived, but mostly my father.
00:27:20 And I had, I think, since I was 17, I started working and I had a weekend job at my father's city where he lived.
00:27:31 OK, got it. Did your mother continue to be aggressive in your teenage years after you had this murderous feeling?
00:27:40 No, no, after afterwards, not she.
00:27:44 No, no, that was the last incident. And we did have some arguments, but nothing that bad.
00:27:53 OK. And did your mother remarry or did she date more or much?
00:27:59 Yes. So she did date, but we never met anyone except one guy.
00:28:08 But also incident that I have to probably tell you about, that I was really aggressive, but I'm not really.
00:28:17 Well, you're a little aggressive with your husband, but that's OK.
00:28:20 We'll get to the root of that, but go on.
00:28:23 I know. But yeah, that was incident that my mother was dating someone.
00:28:33 We knew that she didn't really tell us about it much.
00:28:37 And one day we woke up and the guy was just there in our kitchen and I didn't like him.
00:28:44 I was so annoyed that like, how can you just bring someone to our house like that?
00:28:49 And I got really angry, really. And I said, like, he has to leave.
00:28:53 Like, I was so annoyed. And he had like he left.
00:28:58 He left because I was really angry at them. I was like, look, I will get crazy.
00:29:03 Like this person cannot be here because I didn't feel good.
00:29:07 Like wake up in a house where there is some stranger guy.
00:29:12 Like I didn't I didn't like the feeling. I didn't like it.
00:29:16 And then my mother told me, like, oh, you're crazy.
00:29:19 And I'm like, I'm not crazy. I just just bring someone here and you don't even tell us.
00:29:24 Like, who is that? And I didn't have a feeling from her that it was a boyfriend, you know, just some guy.
00:29:31 She was dating. So I didn't like him being there.
00:29:34 And he left. I never saw him again. And then I don't know who she was dating or not.
00:29:41 I don't think she was bringing anyone home. But she remarried when I was about 19 or 20.
00:29:50 No, actually, she started dating her husband when I was about 19 to 20 and they married later on.
00:29:57 But at that time, I already took a gap year abroad and I didn't talk to my mother for the whole year.
00:30:06 Yeah, because I was not I only communicated with my father and his wife, but I didn't talk to my mother because I was not even in our country.
00:30:15 And I just didn't want to talk to her. And then after about nearly a year, she didn't know about me anything.
00:30:24 And she just wrote me email that she's sorry and that it was really everything was really hard on her during the divorce and after.
00:30:33 But now that she met this guy and she's happy and you know that she would like to see me.
00:30:40 And once I came back from the gap year, I talked to her. But our relationship never got much better.
00:30:46 Like she was happier. She was in a better place. But our relationship was already broken.
00:30:51 She never really apologized about the things that happened before.
00:30:57 And yeah, the new husband, he's, I think, quite, quite OK. But I never, never, never had a relationship with him.
00:31:07 He seems OK. Like I like to meet him, but that's it. I've never lived under the same roof like him.
00:31:13 Because from that point, I never lived home. I lived on my own. I studied. I had my job.
00:31:21 I didn't need much support from my mother. So I didn't see her. And I preferred that that way.
00:31:27 And this was in your early 20s. Is that right?
00:31:30 Yes, early 20s.
00:31:32 And so you don't have to tell me your exact age, of course, but are you in your late 20s or early mid 30s or?
00:31:39 Mid 30s.
00:31:41 OK, so, you know, we're almost 15 years. And what has changed that she's so much back in your mind, in your life as a whole?
00:31:54 Yes. So I did, I think, in 2016 and 17, I discovered your show and also had a year of psychotherapy.
00:32:07 And that really helped me a lot in my life. I feel like it was the first years of my life that I felt like myself.
00:32:20 And when I discovered your show, I was like, wow, I'm not the only one who feels this way.
00:32:26 And it was really nice. And I talked to my mother after I talked to the therapist.
00:32:35 He gave us some, well, he told me what I should discuss with my mother.
00:32:42 And I did explain to her a lot of things. And there were some phone calls that we had, really long phone calls,
00:32:51 because I lived in a different country for work. So we had some phone calls and it seemed like she understood some of the things.
00:33:00 And she apologized for some of the things. But what she didn't understand is that it's a whole process.
00:33:07 Yes. So when I tried to talk about it with her again, she said.
00:33:13 We already talked about it. Why you bring your past again? We already discussed this.
00:33:18 Why cannot you move forward? And I was still a bit hurt. And this also felt so dismissive, but still a bit closer to her.
00:33:27 I felt a bit closer to her. And.
00:33:32 Sorry, what was the purpose of trying to reconnect with your mother in this way?
00:33:38 What were you hoping to achieve? Because we have this, like we used to have a phone call like twice a month.
00:33:45 I don't know. I think I didn't want to completely like.
00:33:50 Be without my mother, but yeah, this is what I'm trying to figure out, what is the purpose?
00:33:58 I think it's like most people see it very important to have someone like family.
00:34:05 Of origin in your life, like your mother, your father, that it's a bit strange not to have them in your life.
00:34:11 No, no, sorry. Sorry. Was this this was after you had listened to my show. Is that right?
00:34:16 Yeah. Yeah. Now, I mean, that doesn't mean that I'm right.
00:34:20 But, you know, as a philosopher, my argument is that there's nothing higher than morality, not family, not country, not race.
00:34:29 Like there's nothing higher than morality. Had your mother discovered or learned empathy, morality, self-response?
00:34:37 I mean, I was really struck when she said, well, I'm really sorry for what happened, but it was really hard on me.
00:34:42 And she goes immediately back into self-pity and all of that nonsense.
00:34:47 So did your mother become a more moral person? No.
00:34:53 OK. And again, so that doesn't mean that I'm right, but certainly you had exposure to my arguments that says you can't be in a relationship with people who aren't moral.
00:35:04 There is no relationship without morality because the other person will just end up manipulating or bullying or being passive aggressive or like without a commitment to self-ownership, to virtue, to honesty, to directness.
00:35:19 People just manipulate. So when you say, well, there's lots of people who think it's really important to have your parents in your life and it's like, well, OK.
00:35:28 But I'm not one of them. At least I think it's important, but not to the point where you sacrifice your mental health or the happiness of your children or the health of your marriage, which is kind of, I think, what's somewhat happening here.
00:35:41 So, for example, even my husband, I don't think he would he didn't think that was a good idea to end the relationship with her because his family is very important to him and he doesn't understand those arguments.
00:36:00 So I didn't want to be like, sorry, and let's let's turn to the husband. Sorry, this is important, right? I mean, you know, whether you're right or wrong, I don't I don't know. I'm just meeting you guys.
00:36:09 So I don't have any particular fixed opinion, but I suppose your wife at some point said, I don't really think that I want to have my mother in my life. And what was your what were your thoughts about that?
00:36:18 Yeah, well, first I had some technical arguments about this because obviously my my wife has a good relationship with her sister and brother and would like to visit them, would like to have Christmas with them and so on.
00:36:35 And she was already when when we discussed this, she was already stressed what we will do if her mother, because obviously her mother would not honor that.
00:36:47 I'm not saying it will be an agreement or whatever, but she would basically force her way to any place where she would knew that probably we will be there.
00:37:03 And we would always be very careful what we knew to visit, what what event to skip and so on.
00:37:15 And this was my first reaction to this.
00:37:19 Yeah. And my wife always gets very emotional when we discuss this.
00:37:23 I take it as only really technical argument.
00:37:26 Yeah, it's not I did not express really my opinion because I wanted.
00:37:32 Sorry, what do you mean by a technical argument?
00:37:37 It's how we would how we would do it in the long term, how actually we would decide what what birthday party we visit or what what wedding we will visit and what we will skip because we will never know if the if the mother will be there or not.
00:37:55 And I'm sorry, I'm I apologize. I'm a little confused. All right. So it's not just that you don't this is to your wife, right?
00:38:04 It's not just that you don't get along with your mother. Like you like the color red and she likes the color blue and like she was violent.
00:38:13 She's selfish. She's kind of destructive.
00:38:17 She doesn't respect boundaries. She can be manipulative and she doesn't know you and she said anyone can say the word.
00:38:28 I'm sorry. I can say the word. I'm sorry all day long.
00:38:32 I can say the words. I'm a doctor, right? That doesn't make me a doctor.
00:38:37 And if I say I'm sorry, that doesn't mean I'm going through the whole process of taking ownership and apologizing for decades of treating my children badly.
00:38:46 So the fact that she says I'm sorry, I mean I can say I can fly and jump off a roof.
00:38:52 It doesn't give me immunity to gravity. So saying the words is not the same.
00:38:56 You know, people say this all the time. I love you. And maybe they just mean I want to get into your pants.
00:39:00 I don't know. So your mother is not just difficult or but isn't there a certain amount of falseness, lack of ownership, manipulation?
00:39:14 She makes you cry. She makes your daughter cry or your children cry.
00:39:18 So there's something quite negative about her from a moral standpoint, if I understand this correctly.
00:39:26 Yes, yes, you're correct.
00:39:28 So if that's the case, if that's the case, then it wouldn't be saying, well, I don't want to see my mother.
00:39:36 Oh, but what about my siblings? Right. You have two siblings. Is that right?
00:39:40 Yeah. So you wouldn't say, well, but what about my siblings? You would go to your siblings and you would say,
00:39:46 here's how mother has treated me. Here's my experience. Here's what's happening.
00:39:51 Here's where I think she's deficient morally. Here's where I think she's dangerous.
00:39:55 Here's where I think she's kind of destructive. And, you know, I'm not happy to give you this choice,
00:40:02 but you are going to have to make a choice that I would love to continue my relationship with you.
00:40:08 But mom is not a very good person, to put it as nicely as possible.
00:40:13 She may be a very bad person. And so I don't want you and I don't want your children to suffer under mom's manipulations
00:40:21 or difficulty or making people cry or upsetting everyone.
00:40:26 And so I'm here to warn you against mom. And I'm also here to tell you that, you know, we can have a conversation.
00:40:32 You don't have to decide right away. But at some point you will have to decide that if you decide to continue a relationship,
00:40:37 with somebody who's done me this much harm, I just have to consider that you don't really love me.
00:40:43 And that you're choosing someone who's done me harm over me.
00:40:48 You're choosing someone who abused me and continues to in some ways over me.
00:40:53 And I can't have that in front of my kids. I can't have that in my marriage. I can't have that in my life.
00:40:59 So, you know, again, sorry to push the issue, but these are the facts.
00:41:04 That she's a kind of a harmful person. She's done me a lot of harm. She continues to do me harm.
00:41:09 I would love to maintain a relationship with you. You're a victim. I'm a victim. We were children.
00:41:15 But you can't have us both.
00:41:19 Yes, I talked about it with my brother because I'm very close with him.
00:41:25 And he has the same opinion about our mother as I do. But he really excuses her a lot because of her upbringing.
00:41:39 Which, you know, I don't think it's an argument. But it used to be also a thing for me that I would always excuse some of her actions because of her upbringing.
00:41:51 The first thing you did with me was say that your mother had a bad childhood, right?
00:41:57 Yes.
00:42:00 Well, if your mother says, I should be excused because I had a bad childhood?
00:42:09 No, she thinks it was perfect.
00:42:11 Oh, she thinks her childhood was good, right?
00:42:13 Yeah.
00:42:16 She doesn't see her shortcomings. And you're right. She can be manipulative, but in a way that she's like, I want to bring you something.
00:42:25 She wants to give you something which you don't want. But, you know, this is also annoying that she wanted to bring us soup, which is kind of nice way.
00:42:35 If we had a good relationship and we would like to see her, that would be great to have a family member to bring us some food after the birth to be with us.
00:42:44 It would be nice. But my daughter is the toddler. She was not that used to her.
00:42:49 She saw her once a month and maybe not even that, you know, and it's like a new person.
00:42:57 I think my toddler would prefer to be some neighbor being here than her.
00:43:01 And she did scare her for some reason, which was really hurtful to me.
00:43:06 And I think even my husband was really thrown off because of the reaction. It was really bad.
00:43:13 And and then then she she sends me a really bad message.
00:43:18 And like she could she could apologize. She said she could say, I'm sorry I made you cry.
00:43:24 I'm so sorry. I will let you know.
00:43:28 We can talk some other time. But instead, she sends me a really bad message telling me that the toddler daughter cried because I don't like her.
00:43:38 So she feels that and that that's why she's not that she made your toddler child cry.
00:43:45 Yeah. And then she says, I'm not that person or something like that.
00:43:48 And that the toddler cried only because I don't like my mother.
00:43:53 Yeah, it's your fault. And sorry, your brother, your brother has children. Is that right?
00:43:58 No, he doesn't. He's eight years younger. He's he's late 30s or mid 30s, mid 20s.
00:44:05 Sorry, mid to late 30s. So he doesn't have children yet. But he understands my point.
00:44:11 Like, no, I don't know. He doesn't. Sorry. Sorry to be I apologize for being annoying.
00:44:16 That's a usually have to. But no, he doesn't understand your point.
00:44:20 And I would argue that you guys don't understand the point either. Again, I apologize.
00:44:24 That's very annoying to hear. And that's why we are calling.
00:44:27 Yeah. Let me tell you why. And then if I'm wrong, you can you can tell me. Right. OK.
00:44:34 So I would say this to your brother. I would say so.
00:44:37 You have children. And you send your children to school. And some kid. Keeps cornering your daughter, slapping her across the face and stealing from her. Right.
00:44:55 Now, which you say to your son. Well, you know, that child who's a bully, who keeps slapping you across the face and stealing your stuff.
00:45:07 That child, you know. Is having a really bad childhood.
00:45:14 And so what we want to do is we want to invite that child over, maybe have some sleepovers,
00:45:19 have the child come over for movie night and really bring that child into our family.
00:45:25 Because it's not the child's fault that he's having a bad childhood.
00:45:30 And you should submit to the child and you should if he wants your lunch money, give him your lunch money.
00:45:34 But we're going to bring him over and we're going to make him into your friend.
00:45:38 What would your brother say? No, absolutely not. Well, why not?
00:45:43 I mean, surely we should forgive people who are having a bad childhood.
00:45:49 And we should keep them in our lives because having a bad childhood means that you can't have any boundaries.
00:45:54 You always have to forgive the person and you never have to hold them to any standard. Right.
00:46:03 And what would your brother say, do you think?
00:46:07 No, I'm crazy. OK, so how is it? How is it good to not forgive a child who's going through a bad childhood?
00:46:19 But it is good to forgive an adult. Who's, I mean, got much more moral and practical responsibility than a child.
00:46:29 Right. I mean, if your kid is being bullied by an eight year old, we say that's really bad.
00:46:33 And you try and get your kid away from the bully. Right. You go and talk to the principal and you try and get the bully expelled.
00:46:39 And right. You don't just invite the bully over for fun times with your kids and have them part of your family. Right.
00:46:47 And an eight year old is much less responsible, almost infinitely less responsible than an adult. Right.
00:46:54 So how is it that an eight year old would be held accountable and would be kept at a distance?
00:47:00 But a 30, 40, 50 year old adult is held not responsible for anything.
00:47:11 Yes, you're right. I mean, I see it the same way. And I think that I've been really nervous about it since that incident,
00:47:21 because I knew that, you know, I think it was the last straw for me.
00:47:27 Oh, do you mean where she made your daughter cry and then blamed you for it? Yes.
00:47:32 OK, let me just turn to your husband first. Sorry. Go ahead.
00:47:36 I'm sorry. I was really relieved we don't talk to her. I just don't like that it's open right now.
00:47:43 No, that's not. No, no. Again, I'm sorry to be annoying. That's not the problem.
00:47:47 That's not the problem. The problem is that you don't have your husband's support.
00:47:50 Now, whether you should or shouldn't, I don't know.
00:47:53 But this is why you're snapping at your husband about bringing the wrong size plate is that you feel isolated and alone.
00:48:02 Could be. What I would like to say really is that this is very surprising that your mother was violent to you.
00:48:09 I never knew even about slapping or anything.
00:48:12 And you only told me that you had a troubled relationship with her and that she does not care about you.
00:48:21 But well, I know it was more than that. I mean, your wife wanted to murder her mother.
00:48:27 She was driven to such an extent. I didn't I didn't want to murder her.
00:48:31 I didn't want to. But I thought, like, if I did the same things she did to me.
00:48:37 I could get like, you know, like if you're just hitting someone and you don't care where you hit them, you could hurt them.
00:48:45 So I didn't want to I didn't want to murder her. But I thought she what she was doing was really dangerous.
00:48:53 And I just thought that she didn't care about if she really hurt or killed you.
00:48:58 I thought that she doesn't think about it. And I realized, like, if I just did the same thing to her,
00:49:08 that I would I would be worried that I might hurt someone, you know.
00:49:11 So I was like, oh, not going to do anything because I don't want to hurt anyone really badly or something.
00:49:17 And she didn't hurt me at the end. But I feel like the way she was hitting me was really like it could end up badly.
00:49:27 But nothing happened. But still, it was really I've never it was scary.
00:49:32 OK, I apologize for getting that wrong. I'll remember that. OK.
00:49:37 So there was violence and and manipulation and also not taking responsibility. Right.
00:49:45 The mother is not taking responsibility. Right.
00:49:50 And so why are you upset at your husband?
00:49:55 And I suppose this goes to the husband. The question to the husband is.
00:50:01 What is your perspective on this person? And I'll be straight up and correct me, of course, if I'm wrong.
00:50:07 I know you will. Would you say that your mother is the person who's done you the most harm in your life?
00:50:13 I'm not saying that all she's done is harm you. I'm sure there's been some good times as well.
00:50:17 But is she the person who's done you the most harm in your life? For sure.
00:50:21 OK. So this is to the husband. You have someone in your wife's life who has done her the most harm and continues to do so.
00:50:31 Makes her cry, blames her for making the children cry. And so that's just a fact.
00:50:37 Whether we like it or not. I mean, this is man to man. Husband to husband. I'm a husband, too. Right. Husband to husband.
00:50:42 There's a dangerous person in your marriage. And that dangerous person is the person who's done the most harm to your wife and remains relatively unapologetic for it.
00:50:58 Yeah, well, my view is or was a bit more limited, I would say, because when we got to know each other with my wife, it was maybe six years ago.
00:51:09 She already had rather, I would not say good, but they did not speak every week, but they would not argue with their mother.
00:51:21 And even her mother was really nice when we met them always, you know, and it felt to me like she wants to somehow make amends.
00:51:35 So, for example, my wife, she bought an apartment as an investment apartment and her mother helped her to reconstruct it for almost free.
00:51:48 So it was like really that she wanted to become a better person.
00:51:55 Okay, sorry, I have to interrupt. I apologize. I apologize. Okay, listen, my friend, man to man, you just heard that your wife had been, hang on, let me finish.
00:52:08 You just heard that your wife had been beaten by her mother, right?
00:52:14 Yes, but just now. I never heard about this.
00:52:18 Why are we talking about apartments and stuff? Where's your heart? Where's your protection? Hang on, hang on, hang on.
00:52:26 Where is your passion? Where is your horror? Where is your shock? Where is your, like, you're droning on about, sorry to be rude, but just droning on about apartments and they were nice six years ago.
00:52:39 Like, she just told you that her mother beat her.
00:52:45 What do you feel about that?
00:52:48 No, but now I feel we should not really have a relationship with this person, but I never knew about this.
00:52:56 No, but now that you know, I'm just curious. I would like to know what you feel about it.
00:53:04 I mean, if you're at the playground and somebody pushes your daughter off the slide and gives her a bloody lip, I assume that you would be upset, right? Angry?
00:53:14 Yeah, for sure.
00:53:15 So, what do you feel?
00:53:19 I must say I'm disgusted by this, by how she can just forget about this.
00:53:40 Who can forget?
00:53:42 And then smile on us.
00:53:44 Sorry, who can forget about what?
00:53:46 My wife's mother. She would just try to go on.
00:53:58 If I were my wife, I would probably not have the relationship sooner. I would not try to contact, especially when I would live in the other country or anything to a person like this. I can't imagine.
00:54:18 Okay, but you knew that this mom, your mother-in-law, that she very much upset your wife, right? That you knew about.
00:54:29 Used to.
00:54:31 No, no, no. She just did. Am I wrong?
00:54:34 Okay, you mean, when do you mean?
00:54:38 When she came over and she made your wife cry and she made your children cry and then she blamed your wife and sent her a very nasty message, right?
00:54:48 Yeah, but the message she sent after a few weeks, I think.
00:54:53 No, immediately.
00:54:54 But I read it after a few weeks.
00:54:56 No, you knew it immediately.
00:54:58 Really? I don't think so.
00:55:00 I don't want to get into arguments about who knew what when, because that's not productive.
00:55:04 Yeah, sure.
00:55:05 You knew, and I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm genuinely curious. I'm genuinely curious.
00:55:13 You knew that your mother-in-law really hurt and upset your wife and children, right?
00:55:21 Yes.
00:55:22 Now, do you think that it's the man's role, the husband's role to protect his family a little bit more than the wife's?
00:55:31 Because, you know, we're bigger and stronger and we have more testosterone and more muscle mass and we have 40% stronger upper bodies and that's just kind of the thing, right?
00:55:41 Like, if there's a sound in the house, right? Like, it's three o'clock in the morning and there's a bump downstairs. Who goes downstairs?
00:55:50 Yeah, okay. I know this is serious.
00:55:52 Hang on. Who goes downstairs? Who goes downstairs?
00:55:54 I would go.
00:55:55 You would go downstairs, right?
00:55:57 If you're at a park and there's some homeless people who are being quite aggressive, it would be your job to notice that, to get your family out or to confront or whatever it is, right? To keep your family safe, right?
00:56:12 Sure, yes, but I really must say I see in today's world there is no real difference between women and men, at least from my experience in this.
00:56:26 What do you mean there's no real difference?
00:56:28 I don't, like in the normal tasks, daily tasks and even what you said, like, look, if someone is not there, I think usually I would say anyone can do it. It doesn't have to be me. It doesn't have to be my role. That's my mindset. So, I don't actually…
00:56:48 Oh, so your mindset is that it's not really your job a little bit more than your wife's to protect your family.
00:56:55 To be honest, not really.
00:56:57 And I guess, is that the same feeling that your wife has? That it's not your bigger, stronger husband's job to do anything more to protect the family than you are?
00:57:08 Perhaps not.
00:57:10 Well, no, this is a question to your wife. Sorry. Is that your same belief?
00:57:14 I don't. This is what has been frustrating me lately a lot. That when we discuss certain things, my husband goes in circles a lot. I cannot get a straight answer from him. And, I mean, he's a really, really nice guy.
00:57:30 I mean, last seven months haven't been ideal, but two months were really bad. And I think, like, last week has also been quite good. We were happy. But we really need to work on this and we need to solve it. And I think my husband sometimes starts running around…
00:57:48 Sorry, sorry. I asked you an opinion and now you… I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh because it's not funny. But you are telling me that your husband gives you the runaround and doesn't answer things directly. OK, do you remember what I asked you?
00:58:00 And I would like him to protect me, of course. And with my mother, I thought that maybe it's more my job to decide because he makes me feel that way. And I'm actually thinking I should have ended the contact a long time before and not leaving it now after we have children on him.
00:58:18 No, no, no, listen, listen, listen, hang on, hang on. Even if, this is to your husband, even if you were right that men and women have no difference in their need to protect, you do understand that your mother-in-law is much less scary to you than she is to your wife, right?
00:58:44 This is clear.
00:58:45 Because she didn't beat you up, she hasn't manipulated you, she hasn't yelled at you, she hasn't blamed you, at least not nearly as much. So, it's like kryptonite, you know, like the old Superman thing that the piece of the planet he came from is the only thing that makes him weak.
00:59:04 So, even if we say things are equal between men and women, which I don't believe at all, but let's say that it is the case, you would still be infinitely stronger with regards to your mother-in-law than your wife is. Just because of history, right? Because she hasn't traumatized you for decades and all of that. So, you are not as scared of her as your wife is, right?
00:59:31 Well, I would not put it in the way that my wife is scared of her, because actually the argument was, let's say, the mother-in-law made our toddler baby cry, but my wife was not there at the moment.
00:59:51 She was just bringing the baby, and when she came to the scene, she saw the toddler cry, and she snapped as well at the mother. So, it was, from my point of view, I could be wrong.
01:00:07 I'm not clear. Maybe I'm not clear. Do you think it's possible for somebody to be traumatized by someone four to six times their size for 10 to 15 years and not have any residual fear or trauma regarding that person? Like, if you'd been locked in a prison and been beaten on occasion by a particular guard, that you would have no residual fear of that guard in the future? Like, we just don't have that fight-or-flight response.
01:00:36 Yeah, I agree. I agree.
01:00:39 Okay, so your wife is much more scared of her mother than you are, and so even if we were to say that men and women are equal in their need to protect, you are still much stronger with regards to your mother-in-law than your wife is to her. So, it would fall upon you to protect her more because you have less fear. Does that make sense?
01:01:03 It makes perfect sense. I would agree to it.
01:01:07 Yeah, like if my daughter is really nervous of dogs, or let's say my wife is really nervous of dogs, for whatever reason, she just, I don't know, got bitten by dogs a bunch of times in the past, and I say, "Well, we'll both have to deal, like if some dog comes charging at us, I would say, 'Well, I should deal with it because I don't have a fear of dogs,'" but my wife does.
01:01:29 So, even if we say it's totally equal, I would deal with the dog because I don't have a phobia of dogs, let's say my wife does. And this is what I'm saying with regards to her mother, right, that she has a fear of her mother based upon how her mother has treated her, and you don't, and you're not supporting her, and you're letting her, you know, how do you think any woman would feel if she's got a big fear of dogs, there's a bunch of dogs charging,
01:01:58 and the husband says, "Well, you can handle it, I'll be around."
01:02:05 Okay, yeah, well, but I don't think I hide somewhere, or I try to help, and I'm always there when we visit the mother.
01:02:15 Okay, so let's say the dogs are running at your wife, and you say, "I'll be around, I'll try to help."
01:02:20 She needs you to stand between her and the dogs.
01:02:28 She needs you to give her boost up a tree, she needs you to keep her safe.
01:02:36 Like, we can be as enlightened as we want, but you know, and I know, that every single species, certainly mammals, is the male bigger, or is the female bigger?
01:02:51 Yeah, well, male.
01:02:53 And the male, of course, right? Is the female more vulnerable when she is pregnant and breastfeeding? Of course she is.
01:03:01 Definitely.
01:03:02 Yeah, is the woman more vulnerable when she's menstruating? She is more vulnerable.
01:03:07 She tends to be a little bit weaker, and so on, right?
01:03:10 So, whether we like it or not, we evolved for millions and millions and millions of years.
01:03:17 We evolved to protect the females.
01:03:23 Now, you can get all kinds of postmodern and say, "I am not going to do that. I am going to say to myself that men and women are 100% equal in their desire and ability to protect each other."
01:03:42 And you are going against millions and millions of years of evolution.
01:03:48 It's like some communist who says, "Well, human beings should never act in self-interest."
01:03:52 It's like, well, you know, no animal acts against its own self-interest unless it's severely traumatized.
01:03:59 And so, trying to create a different kind of human being than what we've evolved as is not going to work.
01:04:07 Now, you guys can have discussions about it, and you can say, "Well, we should try to be more equal," and so on.
01:04:13 But I think, and I could be wrong, of course, but I think that what's happening is your wife is upset and angry at you for failing to protect her, for failing to say, "Listen, talk to me about your mother."
01:04:32 You guys, how long have you been a couple? From dating, from dating, how long have you been a couple?
01:04:37 Five years.
01:04:38 Five years.
01:04:39 You have two children together, and this is to the husband, "Why didn't you know your mother-in-law hit your wife when she was little?"
01:04:53 And the answer, "She never told me," is not an answer.
01:04:56 No, I don't want to say that.
01:05:00 Why isn't that an answer?
01:05:02 May I answer?
01:05:04 Yeah, yeah.
01:05:05 I guess, always, when I ask about the relationship with their mother, I suggest it's complicated, I don't want to talk about it.
01:05:15 No, it's not true.
01:05:17 Several times I told you about the relationship, and I started talking about it, and I even asked you, "Are you interested in any of it? Would you like to know something more?"
01:05:26 And you once told me that you don't want people, in general, you don't like asking people too many questions, and you would like them to tell you what they feel like telling you.
01:05:40 And I thought, I'm sorry, I thought you knew that she was aggressive, but maybe I didn't tell you.
01:05:50 But I have a feeling that you don't ask questions.
01:05:56 When I tell you something, you don't ask questions.
01:06:01 And listen, I have great sympathy for the wife here.
01:06:05 I also have great sympathy for the husband, right?
01:06:08 I'm not on anyone's side, except maybe the truth, and definitely your children, definitely the children.
01:06:15 But why do you think it is that, is there a certain level of discomfort that you feel in asking people about their childhoods or their deepest relationships or biggest fears?
01:06:27 Is there something that is uncomfortable about that for you?
01:06:30 And if so, do you know why?
01:06:35 Not sure. I would say it's not uncomfortability, but maybe I just think it did not matter, or does not matter.
01:06:48 Well, no, but it doesn't matter whether it matters to you, it matters whether it matters to the other person, right?
01:06:53 You can't decide what matters to your wife. That makes sense, right?
01:06:57 Yeah, that for sure makes sense.
01:07:00 But on the other hand, I thought that if there is something important she wants to tell me, that she would tell me, and we spoke about it.
01:07:09 I just did not ask more questions, because I thought that everything important was said.
01:07:18 I certainly would say that the violence would be one thing, because we discussed with my wife,
01:07:26 that if my parents were violent, at least she asked, that's true.
01:07:32 Let's talk a little bit about your parents.
01:07:35 Sure.
01:07:37 How did they show sensitivity or empathy with you?
01:07:46 Okay, I would say maybe by hugging, but not very much. We were not really, say, contact people.
01:08:02 Well, contact is not empathy.
01:08:04 Yeah, but empathy...
01:08:06 I mean, anybody can hug anybody, right?
01:08:09 Yeah, that's true.
01:08:10 So, in terms of their interest in your inner life, in your emotions, in your passions, and so on, how did that go?
01:08:18 They would always ask me, well, how was the day, school, with friends, and so on.
01:08:24 But it's true that they, for one, they would not know who are my friends, what are their names, and so on.
01:08:34 That's true, that they would not...
01:08:37 Yeah, none of that really has to do with empathy.
01:08:40 I mean, asking someone how their day was, you know, when I get a coffee from the coffee shop, they say, how's your day going?
01:08:46 And, you know, we're not particularly close.
01:08:49 As far as knowing friends, yeah, maybe, but were they curious and did they want to know your thoughts and feelings, independent of themselves?
01:09:04 Oh, it's hard for me to judge that, but at least when I was a child, I thought so.
01:09:12 When I look at it now, maybe not so much.
01:09:18 Maybe they...
01:09:21 Well, there's an easy test for this in the present, right?
01:09:24 So, you've been having some marital trouble for the last couple of months, right?
01:09:28 Yeah.
01:09:29 And your parents, are they still together?
01:09:31 Yes.
01:09:32 Okay, and how long have they been married?
01:09:35 More than 30 years, maybe 40 years now.
01:09:37 More than 30 years, okay, and you guys have been married for how long?
01:09:40 You've been together five years, how long have you been married?
01:09:43 Three years.
01:09:44 Three years, okay, so they've got 10 times your experience, right?
01:09:48 Yes.
01:09:49 So, if I'm trying to fix my car, and I'm not fixing it, right, that's getting worse, and my father is a mechanic with 30 years experience,
01:10:01 who do I call?
01:10:05 I get it, yeah, well, they don't even know about our troubles.
01:10:09 Right, so why don't they know, right?
01:10:12 If they have empathy, if you have a good relationship, if you're close,
01:10:16 why wouldn't you call somebody with much more experience and say, "Yeah, I'm having some problems here."
01:10:22 You know, if my wife can't print on the printer, she calls me, so that I can not print on the printer, right?
01:10:29 So, that's my question.
01:10:33 Yeah, that's a good question, because I have no answer to it.
01:10:37 Yes, you do have an answer to it.
01:10:41 Okay, have you thought of calling your parents, and why not?
01:10:48 It's a logical thing to do, right?
01:10:50 Well, I would say, I thought it's our individual problem, and they would not be able to relate to our situation.
01:11:02 Why would they not be able to? I mean, of all the people, your parents have known you the very longest, right?
01:11:09 Yeah.
01:11:10 And so, the idea that your parents couldn't relate to you, when they're the people who've known you the longest,
01:11:19 then that's confusing, right?
01:11:23 So, what do you mean, they wouldn't be able to relate?
01:11:25 I guess, yeah, I start to feel that also, that's maybe not the whole of it, but they are a bit old now,
01:11:34 and they are in mid-70s or late-70s now, and they are not, I would say,
01:11:41 they are very well healthy and very well independent, but they would not be any more, I would say, reliable in a sense.
01:11:54 What are you talking about? What do you mean, they've got 30 years' experience being married?
01:11:59 I'm sure they've worked through problems and challenges and conflicts and all that, right?
01:12:04 Yes, for sure.
01:12:05 So, you're not asking them how to reformat an iPad, you're asking them about marriage,
01:12:12 which they have decades of experience in, and they know you the best of anyone in the world.
01:12:18 Yeah.
01:12:19 So, why wouldn't you talk to them?
01:12:22 I don't know, I guess, I thought it's not… Yeah, well, I always saw it as a problem that is either not on… that I can't solve.
01:12:37 Sorry, a problem that you can't solve? What do you mean?
01:12:41 I mean, that this was like a… OK, when we talk now about it, it might be that the reason is based on something that I did or I did not do,
01:12:55 and maybe it's more… it's more arguable that I can do something about it, but I always thought…
01:13:03 I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. Let me ask you this, just so I…
01:13:06 So, let me…
01:13:07 No, I don't understand. Let me ask you this.
01:13:09 If your children are having a serious problem with something, do you want them to come to you for help and advice?
01:13:17 Sure.
01:13:19 Yes.
01:13:20 Let me ask this.
01:13:21 Sure, sounds very neutral.
01:13:22 OK, sure, yeah.
01:13:23 So, if your children are having real difficulty, let's say they're getting bullied at school or they're having a real problem with a friend,
01:13:30 do you want your children to come to you for listening, feedback, advice, whatever?
01:13:39 Of course, of course, yeah.
01:13:41 So, then your parents would also want that from you, right?
01:13:46 I'm pretty sure they would, yeah. I mean…
01:13:49 OK, so if they want to help you and you need help, if they want to help you and you need help, why wouldn't you ask them?
01:13:57 And I'm not… I don't mean like… There's a reason. I don't know what the reason is. I don't know what the reason is.
01:14:02 But if they want to help you and you need their help, but you don't ask them, I don't know why.
01:14:09 This is… So, OK, let me rephrase the issue, yeah. I thought I know what is the reason, yeah.
01:14:17 I thought that the reason was that my wife, after or even before the birth, she really badly slept, yeah, maybe three hours a day, maybe even less sometimes.
01:14:30 And she had like a, of course, difficult childbirth and then the breastfeeding and the hormones.
01:14:42 I thought it's because of this. I never occurred to me it's because of something else.
01:14:47 I thought that she's sometimes having a bad mood because she did not sleep at all. It's really…
01:14:53 No, no, OK. I hear what you're saying. I honestly… I love you to death, brother. I don't think you're telling me the truth at all.
01:14:59 I'm not saying you're lying. I just don't think you're telling me the truth.
01:15:02 First of all, being tired doesn't make you necessarily grumpy, right?
01:15:10 It doesn't make you snappy. It doesn't make you hostile. You can be like, "I'm dying from lack of tiredness." It can be funny.
01:15:17 It's not… It doesn't mean that you fight.
01:15:22 Yeah, it's true. Like last few days I haven't slept and I was not…
01:15:28 Before our marriage even, when my wife was sometimes not sleeping because of some reason, we were traveling or something, she was always grumpy.
01:15:39 But not aggressive.
01:15:41 OK. So, hang on. So, again, I don't want to go down the quicksand yet. I will get there, but if you can hold off for just a sec.
01:15:47 Yeah.
01:15:48 OK. So, first of all, being tired doesn't make you grumpy. I mean, I have been just by the by.
01:15:54 Like I stepped on this giant nail while I was hiking and I have to be on antibiotics.
01:15:59 And when I'm on antibiotics, my sleep is quite light. So, I've spent five or six days with very little sleep.
01:16:05 Have I snapped at my family? No. Have I been tired? Yes. Right.
01:16:10 It's not causal. Being tired is not causal. Being tired can bring you closer.
01:16:17 I'm so exhausted. And she cries and you hug and… Right. It doesn't mean snappiness.
01:16:23 So, that's not causal. I'm not saying it's easy. Obviously, being tired is very tough.
01:16:29 But it doesn't necessarily mean that she's going to get snappy in this way.
01:16:34 Secondly, if you genuinely thought… Now, I know you don't listen to the show and that's obviously fine.
01:16:42 Immoral, but fine. No, I'm kidding. No, it's fine. Right.
01:16:45 But if you genuinely thought that the only reason you were having marital trouble was because your wife was tired,
01:16:54 then why would you be on this call? Can I make your wife sleep?
01:16:58 I guess I could sing her a lullaby or something, but I can't make your wife sleep.
01:17:03 I can't solve the problem. If the problem is tiredness, and tiredness always leads to aggression,
01:17:10 then this call is completely pointless, because I can't make her sleep.
01:17:16 There has to be something in the mind that can change with feedback that improves the situation.
01:17:23 If somebody calls me and says, "Stef, I've really cut my leg and I'm bleeding. I need some philosophy."
01:17:33 What would I say? I'd be like, "Call a doctor. I can't help you."
01:17:38 If the problem is my wife is not sleeping, I can't do anything. Philosophy can't do anything about that.
01:17:44 Now, if the problem is something to do with a thought…
01:17:47 I thought that just by passing of time, it will be better. This is what I thought in the beginning.
01:17:54 But of course, after a few months, it did not change.
01:17:58 That's why I think it's not anymore. I don't think it's sleep or any hormones or anything like that.
01:18:06 Okay. So you're saying it was because your wife is tired, and when I disprove it, now you're saying it's not that.
01:18:12 Yeah. After a few months, I realized that.
01:18:15 I do feel the story is changing a little bit here, and I'm not sure that there's an acknowledgment.
01:18:20 Is this what you're saying? This is to the wife. Is this what you're saying when it's a little bit in circles?
01:18:25 Probably.
01:18:28 I don't know. Is she still with us? Did she pass out the moment I said the word sleep?
01:18:31 No, I'm here. I'm listening.
01:18:33 No, because he said, "I thought it was because she was tired, and when I say that that's not the case, then she says…
01:18:39 Well, no, I thought initially that it was tired. Now I don't think that."
01:18:42 I told him it's not that, and I thought it has to do something with my mother, and we started talking about it and exploring that.
01:18:53 And then, yeah, I suggested we call you because…
01:18:58 Well, no, because if I have some technical issue and somebody says, "Why are you having this technical issue?"
01:19:09 I wouldn't tell them all the things I've ruled out, right? I mean, really.
01:19:12 "Oh, I tried this. It didn't work. I tried that. It didn't work."
01:19:15 Right? So, if I say, "Why is there the snappiness?" and he says, "Well, it's because my wife is tired."
01:19:20 And then I say, "Well, that can't be the case." And he's like, "Well, no, initially I thought that, and now…"
01:19:24 But the reason why that's happening is I was suggesting to your husband that he call his parents to ask for advice.
01:19:33 And even if it is completely the case that your wife is tired and inevitably she's going to be snapping at you, what do you do?
01:19:41 You call your father, and what do you ask your father?
01:19:46 You say, "Dad, how do I deal with my wife who's snapping at me because she's really tired?"
01:19:55 You know, I get it. You've been through a bunch of kids. Your wife has been tired. I'm sure she snapped at you.
01:20:03 I've been doing it for a couple of months, but I'm finding it harder to keep doing that, right?
01:20:10 To be okay with it, to not get too upset about it. And I don't think it's getting better.
01:20:15 "Dad, give me your wisdom. What do you do?" Right?
01:20:19 So why would you not have that call, even if it was just tiredness?
01:20:26 I think I know what you're talking about.
01:20:28 Well, I don't know. But I mean, I thought even…
01:20:33 Okay, so let's get to it. You're a thinking guy. I get that. And I appreciate that. You're an analyzing guy.
01:20:41 And you're like, "Well, I'm reading the ticket tape that's coming out of my brain, and there's no answer."
01:20:45 Okay, so let me ask you this. If I were to, I don't know, force you, if I were to force you to call your father
01:20:56 and tell him everything that's happening in your marriage and the problems, right?
01:21:02 How would you feel dialing the phone to talk to your father about problems in your marriage?
01:21:11 I would think…
01:21:13 No, no, no! Oh my gosh! No, no, no! That's so funny, I gotta tell you.
01:21:18 No, no, it's just funny. I said, "You're such a thinker." And then I said, "How would you feel?"
01:21:22 And what did you immediately say? "I would think…"
01:21:26 Okay, okay.
01:21:32 "Feel, feel, feel." I know it's horrible, but "feel, feel, feel."
01:21:36 Maybe, yeah. Like, it would be fruitless, so I would feel like…
01:21:49 You'd feel bad. You'd feel anxious, you'd feel scared to do it, you'd feel avoidant, right?
01:21:54 Some feeling would come up that you haven't made that call, right?
01:21:57 Maybe anxious, yeah.
01:21:58 Anxious? Yeah, okay. So what do you think would happen?
01:22:02 Okay, let's do this. I don't know if you've ever heard this roleplay stuff,
01:22:05 but I need to meet these parents of yours, these spot-like robots.
01:22:08 Okay, I need to meet these parents of yours.
01:22:11 So just pretend for a few minutes, just pretend to be your dad, okay?
01:22:15 Yeah, okay.
01:22:16 All right, and I call you up and I say, "Dad, do you have a couple of minutes? Is that all right?
01:22:22 Do you have a couple of minutes, Dad?"
01:22:24 Yeah, I do.
01:22:25 Okay, good, good. "Dad, oh man, last couple of months, and I'm sorry I haven't told you,
01:22:31 but my marriage is a mess. My wife is snapping at me all the time.
01:22:37 I think it's because she's tired. There's some stuff that's going on with her mom.
01:22:41 I'm just… I'm not quite at my wits' end, but I'm not far off from that."
01:22:48 And when you… I'm sure this has happened maybe with you and Mom,
01:22:53 but when your wife gets snappy, when she seems to find fault with everything you do,
01:22:57 what do you do? Did you ever figure out how to crack that code?
01:23:01 Did you have to change something? What happened?
01:23:08 I don't know. I don't know. Just do the stuff what she wants or something like this.
01:23:18 Pretty much, she would say, "I don't know."
01:23:20 No, keep with it. Keep with it. So, well, but I can't do what she wants,
01:23:25 because sometimes what she wants is contradictory.
01:23:28 Like, you must have had your conflicts with Mom, and I'm not asking for any big,
01:23:31 dirty secrets or anything like that, like where the bodies are buried necessarily,
01:23:35 but what would you suggest that I do?
01:23:42 I can't just do what she wants, because that's also…
01:23:45 that might be rewarding, her being like a little mean, like kind of snappy.
01:23:49 I don't want to just, "Oh, you're snappy. I'll do what you want,"
01:23:51 because then whenever she wants me to do something, I'm concerned.
01:23:54 I'm afraid she's going to end up just snapping at me,
01:23:56 because it'll get what she wants, and I don't know.
01:23:59 Did you talk with Mom about it? Did you say… did you lay down the law,
01:24:03 like, "Don't be snappy," or like, "I just don't know how to handle it."
01:24:07 You've got like ten times the marital experience that I do,
01:24:10 and I just need some advice.
01:24:16 Yeah, talking about it and defining some rules, probably that's something you could do.
01:24:24 Well, hang on. You just gave me completely different advice.
01:24:29 First you said, "Do whatever she wants, and maybe," and then you said,
01:24:33 "Well, maybe set up some rules, maybe."
01:24:36 Are you just echoing back what I'm saying? Like, I don't understand.
01:24:39 No. Yeah, well, I don't know what he would say, but absolutely.
01:24:45 I can't even imagine that situation with him.
01:24:48 Like, it would be… I can't really know.
01:24:57 It would be what?
01:25:03 Sorry, you said, "It would be," and I don't know what the end of that sentence is.
01:25:06 It would be what?
01:25:08 It would be really… I couldn't even fathom how that situation would look like.
01:25:19 Okay, but let me ask you this.
01:25:20 When was the last time you really asked your parents for meaningful advice?
01:25:28 Like emotional one?
01:25:30 Whatever is meaningful, whatever is important to your life.
01:25:33 It doesn't have to be emotional, although that wouldn't hurt,
01:25:35 but when was the last time you asked your parents for advice?
01:25:40 Well, I mean, technical advice, quite frankly, a lot of times.
01:25:46 No, no, not technical advice.
01:25:48 Some advice about, let's say, what school to choose, yeah, maybe 15 years ago.
01:25:55 So, for 15 years, as your parents have aged from their 60s into their 70s,
01:26:02 for 15 years, you've not asked them for any meaningful advice?
01:26:09 I don't know.
01:26:11 Okay, this is to your wife.
01:26:13 Have you noticed this giant canyon between your husband and his parents?
01:26:19 Yes, I did.
01:26:22 I'm sorry, yes what?
01:26:24 Yes, I did notice that.
01:26:26 When did you first notice that?
01:26:33 Well, when I met my husband, I noticed that the family only talks about politics,
01:26:38 very heatedly, because the parents and the brothers have different opinions about politics.
01:26:45 And it was interesting, but they really don't discuss anything else than politics.
01:26:51 Well, before we all had children, they only discussed politics.
01:26:55 And they wanted to be part of the life of my husband a lot, like they cared a lot,
01:27:04 but not in an emotional way. They just wanted to help him with his life, to make it easier.
01:27:12 But they didn't...
01:27:18 It feels like the mother, for example, she cares how he feels, but she's quite manly.
01:27:24 And the father, he would really tell him, like, I don't know what to tell you,
01:27:27 just do what she wants. And he would dismiss it.
01:27:31 I can imagine that conversation going that way.
01:27:35 Did your mother-in-law call you up when you decided to have babies?
01:27:43 And did she tell you, here's my experience with pregnancy, and here's what to look out for?
01:27:48 And, you know, I want you to call me, let me know how things are going.
01:27:52 And, you know, I want to be there for the...
01:27:54 Did she give you the sort of older woman's, experienced woman's perspective
01:27:58 on all that was happening that was new for you?
01:28:02 No, no, we don't... No, not my mother, not my husband's mother, nobody called,
01:28:08 or gave me any advice.
01:28:12 I had some problems with breastfeeding, and she asked me how it's going recently.
01:28:17 And we discussed what she did with her children.
01:28:21 So that's the only conversation we had. And that was actually quite helpful.
01:28:25 So you've known them for five years, and they've only given you feedback on one problem that...
01:28:32 Did you bring the problem up to her directly, or did she just find out about it?
01:28:36 She found out from my husband about the problem.
01:28:40 And I'm open about it as well, like I tell everyone.
01:28:44 But...
01:28:47 And they are trying to be helpful, like, even with our children,
01:28:53 they want to be in their life, they... I don't want to say babysit,
01:28:57 they just take care of the children once in a while.
01:29:02 But, yeah, they don't ask, like, they basically say, "We have this day for ours."
01:29:09 And, you know, I had some difficulties with that in the past, since our first daughter was born.
01:29:15 That they have some expectations, and they want you to comply with it.
01:29:19 But then my husband really stepped up and he told them, like, "No, we want to do it differently.
01:29:24 Listen to us. We don't want this. If you want to help us, help us this way."
01:29:28 But they had some certain expectations how they will help.
01:29:34 And they are quite inflexible, but my husband always was there by my side,
01:29:38 telling, "We don't want this. If you want to help us, please do this."
01:29:42 And they try to...
01:29:44 Okay, so I appreciate that. Sorry, I just want to make sure we focus on the issue at hand.
01:29:47 So, you knew this vast emotional emptiness or distance that was in your husband's family
01:29:55 before you got married, right?
01:29:58 I didn't think it was such an emptiness.
01:30:04 But it's turned out to be that way, right?
01:30:06 Yes.
01:30:07 I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, I mean, I can't imagine...
01:30:11 If my daughter didn't come to me for advice three times a day,
01:30:17 and I will actually ask her advice as well, too.
01:30:20 She's got a really good sense of people, so I will ask her advice.
01:30:25 Just getting that kind of feedback is pretty important, isn't it?
01:30:28 We all go kind of crazy on our own and we tend to stay sane when we get good feedback from people.
01:30:35 Correct.
01:30:36 So, you married into a very emotionally distant family.
01:30:43 Yes.
01:30:47 Well, I would say rather they or we cannot manage our emotions,
01:30:52 but I always ask, for example, my father for advice, like what car to buy, whatever to do.
01:31:00 Oh, please don't. No, don't even bother.
01:31:03 I'm sorry, if you can ask the Internet, I don't care.
01:31:07 I mean, ask your father what car to buy.
01:31:10 I mean, your marriage is going through some real struggles right now,
01:31:12 and your mother-in-law is causing a lot of problems, and your wife is quite unhappy.
01:31:17 And if the only thing you can talk to your father is which car to buy,
01:31:21 that's not a close relationship. I'll just be frank with you.
01:31:24 And the reason I want that is that I want for you guys to have a closer relationship to your own children
01:31:31 than you have to your own parents.
01:31:33 But you can't do that if you think this is somehow okay or totally normal or,
01:31:38 well, of course, all we ever do is talk about the things we can't change, like politics,
01:31:42 and we never talk about our thoughts and feelings at all.
01:31:46 I mean, family is not a political talk show.
01:31:49 It's not the Internet. It's not Twitter. It's not where you argue.
01:31:52 I mean, you can have arguments, of course, right?
01:31:54 But family is not that, right?
01:31:58 Because family says, "We want you to be loyal."
01:32:02 Family is like, "We want special privileges."
01:32:04 Well, you can argue politics with anyone, and you can ask anyone which car to buy.
01:32:09 But, for example, the empathy my husband has for me and our daughters
01:32:15 is absolutely different than what his family gives to him.
01:32:20 And he loves them, and he cares about them.
01:32:24 The only problem I had lately that I feel like, regarding to my issue, he was distant.
01:32:31 Like you said, he didn't step up.
01:32:34 But otherwise, I think he's not the same like his father.
01:32:38 I'm sure he does all the practical things, but I'm sure there will be some discomfort
01:32:44 when your children--how old are they now again?
01:32:48 Two years and six months.
01:32:50 Okay, three years and six months.
01:32:52 In a couple of years, they will have very strong thoughts and feelings,
01:33:00 and they will want your participation in those thoughts and feelings.
01:33:05 When that happens, my friends, you will be in pain, because that's natural.
01:33:14 Children want their parents to know what they think and feel,
01:33:19 because that's how they know they have a strong pair bond.
01:33:22 That's how they feel security.
01:33:25 So when your children--and, of course, it will happen pretty soon with the oldest--
01:33:30 start to tell you about their thoughts, their feelings, their dreams, their passions,
01:33:35 their desires, their fears, they will want you to really be curious
01:33:42 and want to know what they think and feel.
01:33:46 And if you didn't get that from your own parents, it will be a painful process,
01:33:52 and you will want to avoid it.
01:33:55 And that's how this distance replicates itself,
01:33:58 is that if we grow up with distant parents,
01:34:02 closeness, intimacy, genuine, deep love is painful.
01:34:11 It's painful.
01:34:13 In the same way, if you're half starving to death and you have a big meal,
01:34:16 you'll get stomach cramps.
01:34:19 It'll hurt.
01:34:21 And you will want to avoid that.
01:34:26 So I think it's important to deal with the distance that you had from your own parents.
01:34:35 The distance that you had from your own parents,
01:34:37 you probably need to try and deal with that
01:34:39 before your kids start trying to pull at your hearts and open your hearts
01:34:44 and really know you and have you really know them.
01:34:50 Because you can't distract your kids by arguing politics with them
01:34:55 and pretending you're having a relationship
01:34:58 because you're yelling about the policy of the Bundesbank.
01:35:06 And as far as protection goes,
01:35:13 this is to the husband, like your father should be working very hard
01:35:18 to make sure that your marriage is strong,
01:35:21 because he's got all the experience.
01:35:26 He's got more experience having a marriage than he does buying cars,
01:35:31 and all you're asking him about is buying cars or other technical things.
01:35:36 Like when my daughter gets married,
01:35:37 I am going to want to make sure that her marriage is as strong as possible.
01:35:42 So I'm going to ask how things are going.
01:35:43 I'll sit down with them both.
01:35:44 How are things doing?
01:35:45 You guys are new to marriage.
01:35:47 And when they become parents and I become a grandfather,
01:35:49 it'll be you're new to parenthood.
01:35:53 Let me tell you what I've learned and what I know,
01:35:55 because my daughter is not going to remember the first couple of years of her life,
01:36:01 and she's going to need all of that experience and that knowledge.
01:36:08 And so your father should be working hard to protect his lineage,
01:36:14 to protect his offspring and their marriages,
01:36:18 and your mother and your father, this is on both sides, should be doing that.
01:36:22 If they're not doing that, and it doesn't sound like they're doing that,
01:36:25 that's quite sad.
01:36:28 And I want to make sure that you guys don't think that's normal or healthy.
01:36:32 I don't think it is.
01:36:34 I think we should be passionately involved in our children's lives,
01:36:38 and it doesn't matter how old they get,
01:36:41 because we still will always have decades of experience more than they have.
01:36:46 And they can give incredibly useful things.
01:36:48 Like my daughter can give me incredibly useful things
01:36:50 because she's been raised peacefully and I was raised violently.
01:36:53 So she has perspectives that are much more helpful
01:36:56 because they come from a clean slate of a good upbringing.
01:37:02 So it's not one way. I mean, my daughter teaches me, I teach my daughter.
01:37:09 But as far as the protection thing goes, women--
01:37:15 and listen, I could be wrong about all of this,
01:37:17 so if I'm going astray, just let me know.
01:37:21 Women are very anxious when they're new mothers,
01:37:26 and thank heavens that they are, because new life is very fragile, right?
01:37:33 Babies are very fragile.
01:37:36 And new mothers need to feel safe and secure and protected.
01:37:43 And new mothers should not be involved in any foundational fights.
01:37:50 I mean, this is also because new mothers are not individuals.
01:37:53 They're bound physically with their babies, right?
01:37:57 Because if you're going through a stressful fight with your mother,
01:38:01 that stress, the cortisol, the adrenaline, all the stress hormones
01:38:07 go into your breast milk, which goes into your babies, right?
01:38:10 It goes into your baby.
01:38:13 So new moms need to be surrounded by giant walls of protection
01:38:20 so that they can feel safe and relaxed.
01:38:23 Now, this is not a great time to get into a fight with your mom,
01:38:30 which is probably why she's doing what she's doing,
01:38:32 because she knows that you're in a vulnerable place, right?
01:38:35 You're tired, you're a new mom, there's anxiety there,
01:38:39 because babies are so fragile.
01:38:41 I love that anxiety.
01:38:42 It's why we're all alive.
01:38:44 It's great.
01:38:45 But it can be overwhelming.
01:38:47 And you need the four fortress walls all around you, right,
01:38:54 so that nobody can get in.
01:38:56 I mean, I think of like Africa or someplace like that.
01:39:00 The new mothers needed to know that no hyenas or jackals or lions
01:39:07 could get in, right?
01:39:09 They needed the men guarding, because they couldn't fight anyone off.
01:39:13 They couldn't fight any predators off.
01:39:16 So it is, given that the fight is on,
01:39:22 this is sort of my advice of what it's worth, that the fight is on,
01:39:26 and again, it's probably not an accident.
01:39:28 People who are exploiters will often wait until you're vulnerable
01:39:32 and then they'll strike,
01:39:34 like the lions go for the wounded zebras first, right?
01:39:37 And so given that the fight is on with the mother,
01:39:40 and she's there making your wife cry, she's making your kids cry,
01:39:45 I can't tell you what to do, but I can say that if I were in your shoes,
01:39:49 what I would do is I would call up the mother-in-law,
01:39:55 and I would say something like, "No, we're not doing this relationship right now.
01:40:01 It's stressful for my wife, it's stressful for my kids,
01:40:04 and I'm not breastfeeding, I'm not exhausted,
01:40:07 I've got the physical and emotional strength to do this.
01:40:11 You have to just give us some space.
01:40:13 We'll call you when my wife feels stronger, when she feels better,
01:40:17 but right now, I can't have this.
01:40:19 I can't have you making my wife cry, I can't have you making my kids cry,
01:40:23 and I certainly can't have you saying it's her fault.
01:40:26 I can't have you, my mother-in-law, blaming my wife for problems
01:40:33 in your relationship when she's struggling with a newborn,
01:40:37 and breastfeeding, and no sleep.
01:40:39 I can't have it. I can't have it.
01:40:42 So, all due respect, you're going to just have to hold off until we get--
01:40:48 Well, when is that going to be? I don't know.
01:40:50 I don't know because it's not my relationship.
01:40:52 But I will tell you, I can't have you around making my wife cry.
01:40:55 That I know. You're not welcome.
01:40:58 Well, it was her fault. I also can't have you blaming my wife.
01:41:02 I mean, if you expect me to take you, the mother-in-law's side,
01:41:08 over the wife of mine, and the mother of my children,
01:41:13 and the woman I vowed to love, honor, and obey in sickness, and in health,
01:41:19 and in better and worse, in riches and in poverty,
01:41:22 till the day we both shall die, or one of us shall die.
01:41:26 If you think I'm going to take your side as my mother-in-law over my wife's,
01:41:30 I don't even know what to say.
01:41:32 But I'm 100% on my wife's side.
01:41:34 You made her cry. You made my kids cry.
01:41:37 I can't have it. Sorry about that. We'll let you know.
01:41:43 Now, if your husband were to say something like that--
01:41:46 I'm not saying that's easy, right?
01:41:48 I can be glib because it's not my mother-in-law.
01:41:50 But if your husband were to say something like that,
01:41:53 and really stand as an iron statue between you and your mother,
01:41:59 and let nothing pass, how would you feel?
01:42:04 It would make me feel good and safe.
01:42:08 And would you care if he did that for you?
01:42:11 Would you care if he came with the wrong plate?
01:42:14 No.
01:42:15 You would not.
01:42:19 You see, and this is to the husband, this fight is on.
01:42:23 You're either going to let your pregnant wife fight, or you fight.
01:42:30 Which should it be?
01:42:34 Of course I fight.
01:42:35 Yeah, of course.
01:42:39 And you also want your children to see--
01:42:45 excuse my slightly salty language--
01:42:48 you also want your children to see that you don't take any shit.
01:42:54 That you don't get bullied,
01:42:56 and that your family is your primary loyalty,
01:43:01 and that you don't surrender what's right and what's good to sentimentality.
01:43:11 See, here's the thing.
01:43:12 Ten years from now, your oldest child's going to be hitting teenage years.
01:43:19 Now, what do you want from your children when they hit their teenage years?
01:43:24 Do you want them to obey their peer group, or to do what's right?
01:43:33 Well, it's obviously--
01:43:35 Yeah, you want them to do what's right.
01:43:37 You don't want them to obey their peer group.
01:43:40 Now, that means you have to, like right now,
01:43:44 start doing what's right rather than succumbing to peer pressure.
01:43:49 And family of origin stuff is just peer pressure.
01:43:52 It's just a different kind of peer pressure.
01:43:54 And if you want to model to your kids,
01:43:58 you don't just do what other people want.
01:44:00 You don't just obey dysfunctional people.
01:44:02 You do what's right.
01:44:05 It also, of course, is not helping your mother-in-law
01:44:08 to let her get away with bullying or manipulation.
01:44:11 Like that's not healthy for her.
01:44:12 That's not the right thing for her.
01:44:14 I'm not saying you would do it fundamentally,
01:44:16 but it is just a fact you're not helping her.
01:44:19 So you want to model for your kids that you do the right thing.
01:44:25 You do the right thing even though it's really tough.
01:44:30 You do the right thing.
01:44:31 Even though everyone is yelling at you to do the wrong thing,
01:44:34 you do the right thing.
01:44:35 That's the only real protection you can give your kids in this life
01:44:39 is to model doing the right thing no matter what.
01:44:44 And it is not right that your wife, while tired, while breastfeeding,
01:44:51 which is, look, you and I, we can't--this is man to man, right?
01:44:55 We can't understand growing a human being inside us
01:45:00 and breastfeeding it directly with our own flesh.
01:45:03 Like we cannot understand that, Bond.
01:45:06 There's nothing wrong with that.
01:45:07 It's just a simple fact.
01:45:08 I can't.
01:45:11 And so we don't know what's needed.
01:45:15 But I do know that what's needed in general is a sense of security and safety.
01:45:20 And your wife is being attacked while she's breastfeeding your baby,
01:45:25 and you don't have the option to stand back and say,
01:45:29 "I'll support whatever you want.
01:45:31 I'll be here if you need me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."
01:45:34 No, you don't have that option.
01:45:37 A kind of predator is attacking your wife and your children,
01:45:43 and you step up and make her safe.
01:45:48 And if that's uncomfortable for you, I'm sorry, but that's the job.
01:45:55 Even if you think everything's equal, they ain't equal when she's pregnant
01:45:58 and breastfeeding and exhausted, right?
01:46:03 Yeah, sure, I agree.
01:46:05 I mean, if you have a relay race, you don't say,
01:46:07 "Well, there's going to be this incredible sprinter, this incredible sprinter,
01:46:11 and then the exhausted breastfeeding mom carrying the baby.
01:46:16 We'll put her right in the middle."
01:46:23 You have to protect her, or she's going to be mad at you,
01:46:27 and we can say, "Well, she shouldn't."
01:46:29 It's like, "Yeah, okay, well, whatever, right?
01:46:32 Baby should be born holding a high school diploma.
01:46:34 I don't know. It's just not the way things are."
01:46:40 I see.
01:46:42 Now, if I say, "Protect your wife, protect your children," how do you feel?
01:46:54 It may be sad that I did not do it because I realize that I could have done more at the time.
01:47:16 Well, it reveals something about your own family that's painful,
01:47:21 which is your parents should have told you all of this,
01:47:26 should have warned you about all of this,
01:47:28 and they should have said the moment they met your mother-in-law,
01:47:31 I assume, have they ever met, the two sets of parents?
01:47:34 Yes, yes, they did.
01:47:36 Okay, so they've met, and they should have cross-examined your wife,
01:47:40 and they should have cross-examined whoever they could get their hands on about that family,
01:47:45 and they could have said, "Listen, you know, that woman,
01:47:48 the woman you want to marry, your fiancée, your girlfriend, she's lovely.
01:47:51 That mom's going to be trouble.
01:47:54 That mom's going to be trouble.
01:47:57 And she's probably going to be the most trouble when your wife has just given birth."
01:48:06 But they didn't even cross-examine me, I think.
01:48:09 Yes, they probably didn't even.
01:48:11 So either they don't know how to identify somebody who's highly dysfunctional and dangerous,
01:48:18 immoral, we could say, right?
01:48:20 I mean, I'm a moral philosopher, so I'm not going to hedge that, right?
01:48:23 So if your parents—this is to the husband—
01:48:25 if your parents don't know how to identify someone who's immoral,
01:48:29 how did they ever punish you for anything?
01:48:33 Because you were punished for being bad, right?
01:48:38 But if they can't even identify anyone who's bad—
01:48:44 and this one's pretty obvious.
01:48:46 I mean, she beat your wife when your wife was a child.
01:48:49 "Oh, well, we didn't know."
01:48:51 Well, it's on the parents to know.
01:48:53 Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
01:48:55 Not knowing these things, not finding out these things is no excuse.
01:49:01 Because everybody who's been victimized as a child has trust issues,
01:49:05 and therefore you have to keep asking, otherwise they won't tell you.
01:49:08 Of course, because there's been countless examples where they've wanted to tell people
01:49:12 and people have not shown any interest, and it's just safer and easier to not say anything.
01:49:18 So blaming the victim of the child abuse for not being full upfront about it all is not an answer.
01:49:24 In fact, it just kind of continues the harmful behavior.
01:49:29 So the reason why it's painful is your father should have been saying,
01:49:32 "Oh, man, your mother-in-law is going to be a handful.
01:49:38 You've got to keep your eye on her because she's going to make a move."
01:49:41 Personally, I wouldn't have anyone like that in my life.
01:49:43 But you can make that case with your wife, but if your wife decides,
01:49:46 it's her relationship to manage.
01:49:48 But I wouldn't go over.
01:49:50 I wouldn't go over.
01:49:51 If your wife wants to go and see her mom, I wouldn't go over
01:49:54 because I don't want to—I want to sit across the table and break bread
01:49:57 with someone who beat my wife as a child.
01:49:59 No, you've got to be—
01:50:01 It's insane to sit there and pour coffee and chat about the weather
01:50:08 with someone who beat your wife as a child and has never really taken ownership,
01:50:14 gone to therapy, made apology, restitution, have it as an open conversation.
01:50:19 Absolutely not.
01:50:22 You don't appease child abusers.
01:50:25 You don't conform to child abusers.
01:50:29 So it's painful that—I mean, look, the stuff that I'm saying,
01:50:37 as I'm saying it, does it seem kind of obvious in hindsight?
01:50:43 It does, but actually maybe one point I have is that I never really was in contact
01:50:51 with anyone who was abused, or at least I don't know it.
01:50:56 So that's one of the reasons it never occurred to me to ask this kind of question.
01:51:03 I'm sorry, why do you think that you weren't abused?
01:51:06 I mean, you know neglect is a form of abuse, right?
01:51:09 Okay, yeah, well, violence, I mean.
01:51:14 Well, but if you had nothing in common with your wife, and your wife has to—
01:51:19 she's not defined by the abuse, but she sure as heck has been shaped by it, right?
01:51:24 So if you had nothing in common with the victims of violent abuse,
01:51:30 you guys never would have gotten married or gotten together.
01:51:33 Also, if you had nothing in common with her, you would have found out about it,
01:51:43 but you avoided asking because you have emotionally distant parents,
01:51:49 and so getting that kind of connection with your wife by genuinely digging in
01:51:53 and asking her about her childhood is painful for you,
01:51:57 because it overturns the distance between you and your parents,
01:52:00 and you say, "I want something different."
01:52:07 Because if you have a marriage based on, "Well, I as the husband am fine,
01:52:11 I have a great family, and you as the wife are a tragic victim of violent child abuse,"
01:52:16 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
01:52:19 she's going to fight you on that, because it's not true.
01:52:26 I'm not saying you're both broken, far from it.
01:52:29 I think you guys are incredible for having this conversation, in my humble opinion,
01:52:32 and I'm sure that you're dedicated to peaceful parenting,
01:52:34 and you are noble souls fighting the good fight in the universe,
01:52:39 and fantastic, wonderful, amazing, admirable.
01:52:47 But I think you have a ways to go, which is good.
01:52:50 I mean, you're going to be together for the next 50 or 60 years,
01:52:53 so keep asking questions about each other.
01:52:57 There's always more to learn.
01:52:58 Every time you learn, you change.
01:53:00 It's what I was told when I was a little kid.
01:53:04 Some old married guy said to me, "Eh, if you don't get married,
01:53:06 maybe you'll date 10 people, maybe you'll date 20 people over the course of your life,
01:53:10 but if you get married, you'll date thousands,
01:53:12 because you and your partner are always changing and growing."
01:53:16 So there's lots to learn, which is great.
01:53:20 But I would say...
01:53:21 I think both of us want this to improve our relationship as much as possible.
01:53:26 We don't want to fight or keep fighting.
01:53:29 Right.
01:53:30 So, you're fighting, I'm going to go out on a limb here,
01:53:33 where I could be completely wrong, and this is to the wife.
01:53:36 You're fighting him because you want to arouse the fight within him,
01:53:42 so that he'll protect you.
01:53:44 A lot of nagging is trying to goad the man into assuming the role of protector.
01:53:49 I know, but I'm causing the opposite.
01:53:53 Well, I don't know.
01:53:55 I mean, that frustration of, "I need you to protect me.
01:53:59 You're not protecting me."
01:54:02 I mean, if you hired a security guard to protect some very important property of yours,
01:54:06 and that security guard was just nodding off and wandering off,
01:54:09 and you'd get really frustrated and angry, and you'd yell at the security guard, right?
01:54:13 "Do your job! We're paying you to protect this thing! Protect it!
01:54:18 Why do you keep wandering off to go pick up some cigarettes and watch a movie?
01:54:22 Protect this thing!" You'd get mad, right?
01:54:28 And this thing is your wife and children.
01:54:34 And, yeah, maybe the siblings, maybe your brother-in-law, your sister-in-law, whoever,
01:54:40 maybe the siblings will choose the mom.
01:54:42 That's painful. I get that's painful.
01:54:44 Maybe they'll choose the mom. Maybe they'll choose the mom for a while.
01:54:47 Maybe they'll, right? I don't know.
01:54:50 But you've got to know that.
01:54:55 And this is why, in general, it's good to get these things resolved before you have kids,
01:54:58 because when you have kids, you're doing double duty, right?
01:55:01 Which is raising kids and also trying to set up some boundaries with the parents.
01:55:08 We are where we are, right? And you, what is it they say?
01:55:13 You go to war with the army you have, not with some fantasy army you might have at some point elsewhere.
01:55:22 But I think with the protection thing, with the security thing,
01:55:25 I mean, is it fair to say this is to your wife?
01:55:27 Like, you've never had someone stand up and really identify and protect you from the trouble in your family, right?
01:55:36 Yes, even my brother admitting that he has the same feelings that I do.
01:55:40 I'm sorry, you were just away for a bit at the beginning there. Can you just repeat?
01:55:44 Sorry, that even my brother admitting that he has the same experience of his childhood as I do
01:55:52 and that he understands me was very emotional for me,
01:55:56 because the first person who acknowledged that I'm not basically crazy.
01:56:02 But this happened last week.
01:56:05 Well, and you've got to say to your brother too, like, the odds of him getting a really quality woman,
01:56:11 if she gets a look at his mom and thinks of spending the next couple of decades around that,
01:56:17 it's costing him quite a bit. And it could cost him everything.
01:56:23 Because, you know, a healthy woman looks at your mother and says,
01:56:27 "Is this who I want raising my grandkids? Is this who I want to spend, you know,
01:56:31 the next 40 Christmases and Thanksgivings and birthdays and anniversaries with?"
01:56:37 Yes.
01:56:39 So, yeah, it's a big cost.
01:56:41 Stefan, may I have one more question?
01:56:43 Can I ask one more question?
01:56:45 It's regarding to my husband's family as well, because I also, like, challenge some of his views on his family.
01:56:58 And I do know they are much closer family than we are, much more helpful.
01:57:04 But really, like you said, I think the emotion is a bit missing.
01:57:11 I don't want, like, we don't want to end the relationship with them,
01:57:14 but how to work with them around raising, them raising our children.
01:57:21 I don't know how to...
01:57:24 Well, I see, here's the thing, though, but...
01:57:26 Whatever advice I give prior to your husband breaking the cycle and stepping up to protect his family,
01:57:36 that's going to change the relationship with his parents, hopefully for the best.
01:57:40 I'm sure it will be for the best.
01:57:42 But I think, you know, look, honesty is the first virtue.
01:57:49 If you don't have that, and you guys do, right, and you've been really honest with me over the course of this conversation,
01:57:54 I hugely appreciate that, but honesty.
01:57:58 I, personally, I don't have relationships in my life where I can't be honest.
01:58:03 I just, life's too short.
01:58:04 I just can't spend my, I had to spend my whole childhood lying and covering everything up.
01:58:08 I'm just not doing that.
01:58:09 Like, that's just not a thing that I want to do.
01:58:11 So, you know, I would say to the husband, if you have issues with your parents, and everybody does,
01:58:18 I'm a pretty good dad.
01:58:19 My daughter's got some issues with me, and I always want her to be able to come and talk to me about them.
01:58:24 And you want that from your kids, too.
01:58:27 You want your kids to come to you with their issues and problems, especially their problems with you,
01:58:31 because they could be right, and you could absolutely improve, as can I and everyone who's a parent.
01:58:37 So, if you have issues with your parents, like, you know, I don't come to you for any advice about anything important.
01:58:45 Why do you think that is?
01:58:46 You have a lot of experience, you have a lot of wisdom, but you're in your 70s, and you're going to die,
01:58:53 and I don't want all of that knowledge and wisdom to pass with you.
01:58:55 Like, why do you think, as a family, we don't talk about, I mean, we argue politics all the time,
01:58:59 but that's all stuff we can't do anything about.
01:59:01 We get more passionate about politics than each other, which seems odd.
01:59:06 Have that conversation.
01:59:07 You don't have to have that conversation, but if you do, that could be really important,
01:59:14 and could be quite powerful, because it's not some big criticism, like, "You beat me!" or something.
01:59:18 It's like, maybe we should talk more.
01:59:20 Maybe you start with the siblings or whatever, but, you know, maybe we should talk more about our thoughts
01:59:26 and feelings, and less about politics, which we can't change.
01:59:30 I think here, we fear, or at least, maybe that's just my feeling, that we fear that they might have
01:59:38 really radically different view on how to raise the children.
01:59:43 But you have radically different views on politics, you're able to have those conversations, right?
01:59:47 And if they have radically different views on how to raise the children, it's worth listening.
01:59:53 It's worth listening to those, right?
01:59:54 I'll listen to any parent who is willing to make a case, right?
02:00:00 But you can also ask them, "Did you notice anything off about my wife's mother?"
02:00:07 And if they say, "No, she seems fine to us," it's like, well, how could you be in your 70s
02:00:11 and not be able to recognize, or even get a sense that anybody could be kind of dysfunctional that way?
02:00:17 That doesn't seem right.
02:00:18 And that's important to know.
02:00:19 If your parents can't identify that kind of dysfunctional immorality, either they genuinely can't,
02:00:27 in which case, I don't know what they've been doing all this time, or they can,
02:00:31 but they don't want to say anything about it, which is kind of a betrayal of the need for virtue.
02:00:35 The need for virtue is not just you identify it.
02:00:37 You know, can you imagine you go, you've got some weird abdominal pain, you go to the doctor,
02:00:43 he sends you to a specialist, you get an x-ray, and they say you're fine,
02:00:48 when they did actually see some big lump that you should get taken out.
02:00:51 They're, "Oh, you're fine. It'll pass. Just a phase," right?
02:00:54 You'd be mad at them because they would have identified something that was dangerous,
02:00:57 but not told you about it.
02:00:59 And that would be malpractice, right?
02:01:00 You would sue them and whatever, right?
02:01:03 So, I think it's important to know if your mother-in-law is a malign or negative influence,
02:01:13 why hasn't anyone noticed or said anything?
02:01:16 You say, "Oh, well, we have this big family, silence, we don't..."
02:01:18 Like, why would you talk more about politics than a child abuser who's around your kids?
02:01:24 It just seems like an odd thing to me.
02:01:25 You can't do anything about politics, really, other than flap your gums,
02:01:29 but you sure as heck can do something about a child abuser who's around your kids.
02:01:34 Like, why are we taking all of our moral energies and pouring them into things we can't change
02:01:38 while completely ignoring the things that have a real effect that we can change?
02:01:43 That may be a conversation worth having in your family.
02:01:48 It's scary to have that conversation, and whether you have it or not,
02:01:51 it's important to know if you say, "Well, I'm not going to have that conversation,"
02:01:54 say, "Okay, well, I can't tell the truth to my family."
02:01:56 That's an important thing to know.
02:01:58 I choose not to tell the truth to my family.
02:02:00 I choose to avoid any important conversations with my family.
02:02:04 I don't know what the relationship looks like after that.
02:02:06 I don't know, genuinely don't know, but it's important to know if there's a huge limitation,
02:02:11 which is you can't tell the truth to people.
02:02:13 It's important to know that.
02:02:15 Otherwise, it gets normalized.
02:02:18 So I have this with my father that I told him the truth.
02:02:23 He got really upset, and upon discussion with the psychologist I was talking to,
02:02:31 I decided I know what's the relationship, but the relationship is not really functional.
02:02:37 I decided I'm not going to keep telling him the truth.
02:02:42 But now I'm also considering, is it fair to meet him?
02:02:47 Well, no, it's not a relationship.
02:02:48 You can hang out if you want.
02:02:50 It's not a relationship if you're not going to tell him the truth.
02:02:53 And what about if the kids are around?
02:02:56 Do you think it's...
02:02:58 Well, I don't care about the kids' relationship with your dad.
02:03:01 I care about the kids' relationship with you,
02:03:04 which is, are they going to watch you lying by omission to your father year after year?
02:03:10 And what's that going to do to their respect for you and for telling the truth?
02:03:14 Aren't you going to say to your children, "I want you to tell the truth.
02:03:17 If you have a problem, I want you to come to me.
02:03:19 Don't hide things."
02:03:20 And they're going to see you, and they're going to figure it out at some point,
02:03:23 they're going to see you hiding things from your father, lying to your father,
02:03:27 pretending to be someone other than who you are with your father.
02:03:30 I don't really respect him.
02:03:35 I don't think he's a very strong person.
02:03:38 I don't respect him very much.
02:03:41 Well, I don't know about a strong person or not.
02:03:43 I mean, he's strong enough to get his way, isn't he?
02:03:46 Yeah, yeah, but I mean...
02:03:48 I mean, everyone thinks that manipulative people are weak.
02:03:50 It's like they kind of run the planet these days.
02:03:52 Everyone who gets upset gets their way, right?
02:03:55 We've just got this hyper-girly-on-steroids world where everybody who gets upset,
02:03:59 everyone else is like, "Oh, okay, you're upset.
02:04:01 Okay, we'll change."
02:04:02 And it's like, they're very strong.
02:04:05 Manipulation can be very powerful.
02:04:07 Sometimes I think it's the most powerful force, sadly, that we have.
02:04:11 Well, he just doesn't want to hear the truth.
02:04:14 He doesn't care about the truth.
02:04:16 Why should he care about the truth?
02:04:18 He gets what he wants without the pain of the truth.
02:04:21 Exactly.
02:04:22 Right?
02:04:23 I mean, if somebody has a job they don't like and you pay them anyway,
02:04:25 they're not going to show up because they get the benefits without the work.
02:04:28 And if you give him a relationship without the requirement of truth,
02:04:31 why would he care about the truth?
02:04:33 And I just remembered something about my father's brother
02:04:37 because my father's brother, he lives close to their mother.
02:04:42 She just died, but he visited her very often, but he didn't like his mother.
02:04:48 And I always was worried that I will end up this way, like visiting my mother
02:04:53 while not liking her, having mean comments toward her.
02:04:58 And my father's brother and their mother had a really bad relationship.
02:05:04 They talked really – it was kind of toxic.
02:05:08 They were both sarcastic toward each other.
02:05:11 And that's what's happening is your mother, without the boundaries,
02:05:14 your mother is coming in and messing up your marriage.
02:05:17 Because as you said, you're behaving like your mother did towards your father.
02:05:23 Right?
02:05:24 Didn't we talk about that analogy that they'd fight about stupid things
02:05:28 and unimportant things and they'd fight in front of the kids?
02:05:31 So you're doing that now, right?
02:05:33 And that's the price of not having boundaries with dysfunctional people
02:05:36 is their dysfunction comes in and, in a sense, possesses you like a demon or a ghost.
02:05:43 Yes, but, for example, my father's brother, my uncle,
02:05:48 he had a relationship with his mother, but he was seeing her every day,
02:05:53 but he didn't like her.
02:05:56 They had a bad, toxic relationship.
02:05:59 And my father, he just talks badly about my uncle.
02:06:03 He says my uncle is the problem, not their mother,
02:06:06 which I think the mother is responsible for the relationship.
02:06:10 But that's exactly what your mother did when she said,
02:06:14 "It's your dislike of me that made your children cry."
02:06:17 Right?
02:06:18 So your father blames the child, his brother,
02:06:21 and your mother blames the child, your daughter, right?
02:06:24 So they have that in common.
02:06:26 And, yeah, I think, yeah, because I always thought
02:06:30 if I stopped having a relationship with my father,
02:06:33 like he will talk badly about me like he talks about his brother
02:06:37 because he says, "Oh, my brother, he just complains so much.
02:06:40 He doesn't, like, respect the mother."
02:06:42 And I think that was the reason.
02:06:44 Like, I just, it just occurred to me. Sorry.
02:06:46 No, but your father, let's say your father does talk really badly about you, right?
02:06:50 He would be doing you a huge favor.
02:06:54 Because anyone, like, can you imagine if I'm at some dinner party
02:06:58 and some father is complaining that his daughter is just really bad, right?
02:07:01 What would I say to him?
02:07:02 It's so mad. It's crazy.
02:07:04 I'd say, "You're the dad. Like, what on earth are you complaining about your daughter for?
02:07:06 You raised her."
02:07:07 Yeah.
02:07:08 Right?
02:07:09 So anybody who believes your father, you don't want in your life anyway,
02:07:13 he's doing a great service to you
02:07:15 by keeping away all the people who blame children from your life.
02:07:20 Like, good, good on him, right?
02:07:22 Hmm. Well, thank you.
02:07:24 That's, yeah, thank you.
02:07:27 That's very helpful.
02:07:28 That's helpful, yeah.
02:07:29 I mean, listen, I've had personally, I mean, all of the negative language that's out there about me,
02:07:34 well, it's keeping all the people who can't handle philosophy from wasting my time.
02:07:38 Because, you know, if people just believe slander, then they can't ever,
02:07:41 they would never have the stomach for the pursuit of truth.
02:07:43 So it allows me to focus on conversations like this rather than other giant wastes of time,
02:07:48 if that makes sense.
02:07:50 Thank you.
02:07:51 Also, about our children, because they heard us argue several times.
02:07:57 Do you think there's something we should do or just stop arguing in front of them?
02:08:04 Well, I mean, the six-month-old isn't really going to notice,
02:08:08 wouldn't really be able to understand the language.
02:08:10 They can certainly tell your connection.
02:08:12 Listen, you're both very, very bright people.
02:08:15 So I'm sure that your oldest, who's two-ish, is also very bright.
02:08:20 So you can certainly say, have you noticed we've been fighting?
02:08:25 Really sorry, that's not your fault.
02:08:27 It's our issue and we're fixing it.
02:08:31 And we promise it's going to stop happening.
02:08:34 And tell us what you've noticed, tell us what you think, how do you feel.
02:08:39 I'm sure she's smart or he's smart with regards to that kind of stuff.
02:08:43 So I think it may be worth verbalizing it with the older kid.
02:08:46 But yeah, the best thing to do is to stop and then ask.
02:08:51 Because if you ask before you stop and then you don't stop, that's going to be even worse.
02:08:58 We stopped like one week ago.
02:09:00 Oh, good.
02:09:01 It is, you can see the difference with her already.
02:09:06 She's more relaxed.
02:09:08 So how, I mean, I'm just going to close up now.
02:09:11 I've got to eat.
02:09:13 Sorry, I must take care of my flesh.
02:09:16 How's the conversation been for you guys?
02:09:19 I hope it's been helpful and useful.
02:09:21 I think you've both done great for what it's worth.
02:09:24 Thank you so much for taking your time talking to us.
02:09:28 I think it opened some really new ways how to look at it for me, definitely.
02:09:34 Good, good.
02:09:35 All right, well, listen, I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
02:09:37 And I certainly wish you the very best.
02:09:39 I'm sorry that it's happening, but better now than later.
02:09:42 It's the old thing.
02:09:43 If there's to be a conflict, it's better to get a band-aid off and get it over with sooner rather than later.
02:09:49 And I hope you guys will keep me posted, and I really do appreciate your time today.
02:09:53 We will.
02:09:54 Thank you so much.
02:09:55 Thank you for your time.
02:09:56 Thank you for your time.
02:09:57 Bye-bye.