Recorded December 2020
Dear Stefan,
I am a 37-year-old woman and I'm having trouble reconciling the current relationship I have with my mother. I was raised by a single mother. She and my father divorced when I was four. And growing up, we were very close. She was everything I thought a decent mother should be. She was very loving, supported, and always wanted the best for me. I considered her a friend and confidant. As I have gotten older, gotten married, and had children of my own, our relationship has taken a downward turn. I have come to realize that she is very immature and has very little self-esteem. And from incidents that have happened between me and her over the last 10 years, I have lost a lot of respect for her. I am starting to see her for who she really is and it's been a very hard realization. My mom doesn't really have a lot of people close to her in her life. Her immediate family have either passed away or she is estranged from them. And I have no brothers or sisters. So I feel like I am all she has. This puts a lot of pressure on me to keep in touch with her, plan addings for her and my kids to meet up, etc. But after a fight we had very recently, I am becoming less inclined to want to see her. I need help understanding my role in the life of my mother and what obligations I have to her. Would love to hear your perspective.
Thank you, Stefan.
Transcript: https://freedomain.com/mom-said-f-u-freedomain-call-in-transcript/
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Dear Stefan,
I am a 37-year-old woman and I'm having trouble reconciling the current relationship I have with my mother. I was raised by a single mother. She and my father divorced when I was four. And growing up, we were very close. She was everything I thought a decent mother should be. She was very loving, supported, and always wanted the best for me. I considered her a friend and confidant. As I have gotten older, gotten married, and had children of my own, our relationship has taken a downward turn. I have come to realize that she is very immature and has very little self-esteem. And from incidents that have happened between me and her over the last 10 years, I have lost a lot of respect for her. I am starting to see her for who she really is and it's been a very hard realization. My mom doesn't really have a lot of people close to her in her life. Her immediate family have either passed away or she is estranged from them. And I have no brothers or sisters. So I feel like I am all she has. This puts a lot of pressure on me to keep in touch with her, plan addings for her and my kids to meet up, etc. But after a fight we had very recently, I am becoming less inclined to want to see her. I need help understanding my role in the life of my mother and what obligations I have to her. Would love to hear your perspective.
Thank you, Stefan.
Transcript: https://freedomain.com/mom-said-f-u-freedomain-call-in-transcript/
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00 Let's get to the caller bracket S potential. James, who do we have first?
00:00:07 All right. Well, we have one on and we may have another but we'll start off with our first caller today and
00:00:13 she writes
00:00:16 Dear Stefan, I am a 37 year old woman and I'm having trouble reconciling the current relationship I have with my mother. I
00:00:24 Was raised by a single mother. She my father divorced when I was four
00:00:29 And growing up we were very close
00:00:31 She was everything. I thought a decent mother should be she was very loving supported and always wanted the best for me
00:00:37 I considered her a friend and confidant
00:00:40 confidant
00:00:43 As I've gotten older gotten married and had children of my own our relationship has taken a downward turn
00:00:48 I have come to realize that she's very immature and has very little self-esteem and
00:00:54 From incidents that have happened between me and here me and her over the last 10 years. I have lost a lot of respect for her
00:01:00 I'm starting to see her for who she really is and it's been a very hard realization
00:01:05 My mom doesn't really have a lot of people close to her in her life
00:01:09 Her immediate family have either passed away or she is estranged from them
00:01:13 And I have no brothers or sisters
00:01:16 So I feel like I am all she has
00:01:18 This puts a lot of pressure on me to keep in touch with her plant addicts for her and my kids meet up, etc
00:01:25 But after a fight we had very recently I am becoming less inclined to want to see her. I
00:01:30 Need help understanding my role in the life of my mother and what obligations I have to her would love to hear your perspective
00:01:38 Thank You Stefan
00:01:40 No, thank you. That is a very good
00:01:43 deep and honest
00:01:46 Email, I appreciate that. Is there more I'm sure there is that you want to add to that?
00:01:51 Thank you so much the fun for taking my call, um
00:01:54 There's I guess so much more to add to it. Um, and I'm actually not sure exactly where to go
00:02:02 Sure, um, do you want me to ask?
00:02:06 Sure. Sure. That would be great
00:02:09 Do you have kids? I?
00:02:11 Do I have to know? Congratulations? How was it like I?
00:02:15 have a four-year-old and a one-year-old and
00:02:21 Definitely the second one is a lot due to you due to listening to your call and shows over the years
00:02:27 Just encouraged me to to have at least another one and I'm so happy I did
00:02:32 well, I appreciate that and
00:02:35 It's another one of the reasons why I get censored is that I encourage
00:02:38 people to have kids and
00:02:41 You know, there's a lot of anti-natalists out there in the world
00:02:44 So they have a lot of power at least people who don't want smart people to have kids. So
00:02:49 Congratulations, that is that is wonderful to hear now. I
00:02:52 Know it's kind of casting the net forward quite a ways, but if you
00:02:56 When you get older and your kids are older, they're adults
00:03:01 Do you want them to phone you out of a sense of depressed obligation
00:03:07 No, of course not
00:03:11 Well, let's say that they have an issue with you and they will obviously nobody's perfect. No, I'm not you're not right
00:03:18 it's gonna be things that we're gonna need to explain or apologize for as we
00:03:21 as we parent
00:03:23 What would you like them to do and you know, maybe they'll listen to this one day right when they get older
00:03:29 But what would you like them to do?
00:03:31 If they have a
00:03:34 Problem with you or something that they didn't like or and listen it could be because you were too good a parent, right?
00:03:40 Like mom you raised me rational in a world. That's crazy
00:03:43 How am I supposed to fit in right in resentment or frustration?
00:03:46 When they see everybody else blending into the collective and they can't board to themselves
00:03:50 They may have some resentment and that's you know, something that's important to listen to and all that
00:03:54 So what do you want them to do? What what advice like pretend that they're older now and they're listening to this
00:04:00 They have an issue. What would you like to say to them about what they should do with that? I
00:04:04 Definitely want them to be
00:04:10 Sorry, tell them like listening
00:04:13 you
00:04:41 And if they don't do that
00:04:43 Instead what I do is just kind of get avoidance and
00:04:47 Maybe anxious may be depressed about the relationship. I
00:04:52 Mean, how would that affect you do you think?
00:04:55 I feel terrible
00:04:59 And feel terrible I feel like what have I done wrong that they don't want to talk to me about
00:05:07 anything
00:05:11 I feel terrible now what if they did talk to you?
00:05:15 but
00:05:18 Huh? I mean your kids are still pretty young, right?
00:05:20 So let me tell you how it's gonna play when you when you get older
00:05:24 I think maybe not a guarantee, but I think this is how it's gonna play when you get up when they get older
00:05:28 So when they get older
00:05:31 You'll want to introduce them to the things that you like to do
00:05:34 Let's play tennis
00:05:37 Now some of them they will enjoy and some of them they want and
00:05:41 Every now and then what will happen and it's important to talk about this
00:05:44 But every now and then all the parents will know what this is all about
00:05:47 I mean and you know kids who are honest about people who were honest about their own experiences kids who remember this too
00:05:51 so
00:05:55 The kids will come
00:05:57 And they will go through the motions we all know this right they'll go through the motions they will
00:06:07 Be there
00:06:09 Weekend at Bernie's style like they'll be there, but they won't really be there. They'll come and they'll play tennis with you
00:06:15 But they won't really run for the ball
00:06:18 They'll stare off into space
00:06:20 They'll be distracted and you say oh, you're not enjoying this. No, that's fine. I'm enjoying it, but you know, right
00:06:27 You know that they don't want to do it, but they're kind of going through the motions, right and
00:06:33 Yeah, you gotta have those
00:06:35 You got to have those conversations about like, you know
00:06:37 If you're gonna do something then do it and if you decide you don't want to do it then have that conversation, but don't
00:06:42 Be there in body, but not in spirit
00:06:45 That's a bad way to deal with a difference of opinion, right? I like tennis. You don't like tennis
00:06:51 But you're calm, but you'll just be kind of negative and it just drags everything down and you know, this is
00:06:56 Even parents can do this
00:06:59 I remember when I was a kid, my mom had promised me to go and see a pretty funny Scott Baio movie
00:07:05 Called Bugsy. No
00:07:08 It was the one
00:07:11 Where?
00:07:13 Bugsy Malone? I don't remember. Anyway, it was a sort of a musical about pretend kid gangsters
00:07:19 where they had cream splatter guns instead of real weapons and
00:07:23 It was a it was a fun movie. It was an enjoyable movie
00:07:26 and
00:07:29 my mom had promised to take me and
00:07:31 so
00:07:34 When the Saturday came she didn't want to go
00:07:36 But I was just like nope, you're going because you promised and I kind of muscled her into doing it
00:07:44 When she came and she complained and she was negative and she didn't like the movie and she you know
00:07:50 But I was just like the wall of will went up and I just shielded myself from all of that and really enjoyed the movie
00:07:57 Because you know I was gonna get something out of this promise, right?
00:08:00 and
00:08:02 So it's gonna happen that your kids are gonna get older and you're gonna introduce them to stuff and they're gonna go through the motions
00:08:08 They're gonna try and drag you down with vague negativity as their way of protesting so that you won't ask them to do it again
00:08:13 And you know, sometimes spouses will do this as well
00:08:16 You know like the husband who's resentful that the wife is asking him to do the dishes will do the dishes badly
00:08:20 And then she'll complain that he does the dishes badly and he'll say well if you don't like the way I do the dishes
00:08:26 Maybe I won't do them at all. Right? It's just you know, instead of having a conversation about expectations and preferences and
00:08:31 Work I don't know why it is in general that people would much rather have a two-hour fight
00:08:37 Than a 20-minute conversation. That's I've never understood that fundamentally why people would rather have a two-hour fight than a 20-minute conversation
00:08:45 Or maybe even a potential divorce rather than a 20-minute conversation anyway
00:08:49 So that what I'm saying by that is
00:08:52 So you invite your kids over?
00:08:56 You know come over for a swim or you know come over for
00:08:59 Tennis or come over for a barbecue or you know, I'll make you dinner or whatever and they're like, yeah
00:09:05 I guess we can come and and they come but they're kind of on their phones and and
00:09:09 They're kind of not really chatting with you. And I mean you really get the sense that they don't
00:09:14 Want to be there?
00:09:17 And if you say are you distracted? Is there something wrong? Is it you not want to be here? No, no
00:09:22 I'm just you know, just you know got this text
00:09:24 I gotta finish and it's important stuff going on in my relationship or whatever it is, right? I got something from work and
00:09:29 But you gotta know deep down
00:09:31 That
00:09:34 They don't want to be there. Wouldn't that be a kind of hell?
00:09:37 Yeah, especially if they wouldn't even really talk to you about it
00:09:43 So does your mother know that there's times when you really don't want to be there or talk to her
00:09:52 well
00:09:54 After we had a fight last weekend and I think she
00:09:59 She probably kind of had a little bit of an idea of that before
00:10:03 But I think she's got a little bit more of a perspective on that now
00:10:08 So, yeah, I would have it you're the way you're putting it. Yeah, I'm sure she does
00:10:15 And listen, I know I've been talking a lot but there's real purpose to this
00:10:21 For once there's real put another and the real purpose of this is I'm not sure that you get how different you and your mama
00:10:28 Because you would notice this with your own kids and it would be unbearable to you now either your mother doesn't notice it or doesn't
00:10:37 care
00:10:39 Because you need to get a sense of the like if you want to
00:10:41 If you want to have a communication, which I think is usually a good thing to do
00:10:45 If you want to have a communication then what you need to do
00:10:50 Is
00:10:52 First understand what the gap is, right?
00:10:56 Yeah
00:10:57 It's a gap analysis of the conversation, right?
00:10:59 If you want to negotiate with someone who speaks Polish and you don't speak Polish
00:11:02 Then you need to get a translator
00:11:04 Right because you need to know that there's no point you babbling at each other in languages that neither of you can follow, right?
00:11:09 so to understand the gap analysis
00:11:14 The first thing you have to understand is that your mom
00:11:19 Well, that's the question does she not notice or not care
00:11:24 I mean does she not notice that you have had I assume significant problems with her for a long time
00:11:29 Does she not notice that or does she notice it but not care?
00:11:32 Think she doesn't care. I think that she's
00:11:38 Maybe scared to ask scared to inquire
00:11:44 Because when we had kind of a little blowout last weekend, I found out that she had been holding some resentment
00:11:50 Towards me about something that I had no idea
00:11:54 I thought that a lot of it was just on my side being resentful
00:11:59 Towards her about some things and then I found out she was mad at me about something
00:12:04 So I
00:12:09 Think she knows but just didn't want to go there because she was afraid of kind of getting mad at me about some stuff in
00:12:15 The past and then kind of the same thing on my side
00:12:18 Can you tell me a little bit more about the issues that were going on last weekend
00:12:25 We got together with some other family members and then when we were leaving
00:12:32 a
00:12:34 Restaurant we started talking about politics not going to go into too many details
00:12:38 but we kind of got into a little bit of an argument and
00:12:41 I
00:12:43 made a comment that my mom took incredibly personally and
00:12:47 Had it with me and started screaming at me and said, um, excuse my language
00:12:52 but she actually yelled at me will fuck you and got into her car to leave and
00:12:57 What what did you say? What did you say though?
00:13:00 I
00:13:02 Know obviously there's no excuse for drop of the f-bomb in a relationship, but I'm just curious what what it was that triggered her
00:13:12 well, I I mean I and you're right she was very triggered because I found that out just moments after I
00:13:18 Kind of thought I followed her to our car and I talked to her or continued the fight
00:13:23 I should say I said something to the effect of
00:13:25 so you want a country full of fucking idiots and
00:13:30 That's when she got mad and she was basically like you're calling me an idiot
00:13:34 Well, fuck you and went to her car and I ran after her
00:13:39 because I just had enough of her getting mad at me and just turning her back and
00:13:45 Deciding to ignore me and not talk to me about it
00:13:48 And I've never really done this but I started screaming at her and I told her to stop
00:13:54 I came over to her car and basically told her you're not moving
00:13:58 You know, you can't just yell at me like that and not act like a mother and I just it's something
00:14:05 I just always wanted to see never I was like need to be a mother here. I'm not the mother. You're the mother
00:14:10 I'm the child you can't yell at me like that and run away
00:14:13 Anyway, sorry, I lost my train of thought
00:14:18 You what are you doing? What do you do in
00:14:22 Dropping the f-bomb on your mom
00:14:26 country full of fucking idiots, right
00:14:28 Like once you start f-bombing people in a conflict
00:14:32 Look what you said is not as bad as what your mom said because what you said was abstract f-bomb
00:14:37 What she said was a personal F you f-bomb, right?
00:14:40 Hmm, but what do you?
00:14:44 What are you doing trying to have a conversation
00:14:48 Where you're starting to swear?
00:14:52 Around people because you know, that's not that's never gonna work right? It's never gonna be a productive intellectual discussion
00:14:59 There's not a lot of f-bombs in Plato, right?
00:15:01 Okay, so that's my question and I'm not trying to throw you under the bus that we'll get we'll get to your mom
00:15:08 I'm just where is it that you are that you're escalating and maybe she escalated first and you kind of stepped up
00:15:14 but that's you know, you said
00:15:16 something really provocative to her and I
00:15:21 Guess that's my first question is is where's the way is that coming from? I
00:15:24 Got I was mad at the previous thing that she said
00:15:30 Right before I said right before I said what I said, I and what was that? I don't mean
00:15:35 We were talking of
00:15:40 I'm almost a little embarrassed. We were talking about me. This is important. This is important stuff
00:15:46 Nothing you say here is unimportant. And if it sounds petty it's because it's easier to deal with the petty stuff than the root stuff
00:15:53 So don't worry about the pettiness. That's totally fine
00:15:55 We were talking about somebody who's like a I guess a
00:16:00 commentator and
00:16:03 I just and she was saying that she just agreed with a lot of stuff that he said and
00:16:09 I kind of just made an offhand comment
00:16:12 well, yeah, if you like somebody that sleeps around with you know, a lot of women and smokes pot all day and she said
00:16:19 well
00:16:20 maybe I like that about him and that's when I just was just the way she gave me this smug look like it's just
00:16:28 So immature and it just made me so mad. That's what I that's when I came out and said
00:16:32 Well, I guess you wanted country full of fucking idiots. Just like that kind is what I was getting
00:16:37 She said she said that she she liked
00:16:41 the
00:16:42 sleeping around
00:16:44 Pot smoking that that she liked those characteristics
00:16:48 she thought that that was like funny like it's it's cool and
00:16:52 It just made me so so angry because it's just that the immaturity of it
00:16:59 It's just like this is funny to you
00:17:01 We're in the middle of like talking about serious stuff and you just have that's what you come back with
00:17:06 And so and you're absolutely right. I agree and I'm the first one to say like
00:17:11 Telling telling talking about this fight like with my husband
00:17:14 But yeah, that wasn't the best way for me to approach it because that's not gonna go anywhere
00:17:18 but I was just angry in the moment and that's when I was I said what I said and then she took that as
00:17:24 I'm calling her an idiot, which is not what I said
00:17:27 it's just I
00:17:30 Was just angry and petty in the moment. Well, no, no see I don't think that's petty at all
00:17:38 No, no, no, no, I don't think that's petty at all just so you know
00:17:43 Okay, it's it's a it's a very deep statement, right
00:17:50 Is it a commentator I would know
00:17:54 Yes, sorry, um
00:18:00 Yes, most likely I've sent and who was it. Oh
00:18:04 Gosh, that's why I don't I'm and I don't have to say you don't have to say it doesn't listen
00:18:08 It is you don't you don't have to say you're perfectly sovereign consciousness in this conversation doesn't matter, right?
00:18:13 So we'll just call it Bob right? Okay, so
00:18:18 In that moment
00:18:22 It's a fundamental
00:18:25 value revelation
00:18:27 With regards to your mom, so she will
00:18:31 Say oh I like a lot a lot of what this commentator has to say and you know
00:18:35 I guess you have knowledge or maybe this common knowledge that this person is addicted to drugs and promiscuous
00:18:40 Is that is that fair to say I?
00:18:42 Would say definitely say that there might be some that really like this person that might disagree with me
00:18:49 But I think wait disagree with you about the promiscuity and the drug use are those not factual things
00:18:55 um, I
00:18:58 Think they're reasonably
00:19:01 Factual yes, they are. I will say yes, okay
00:19:03 so
00:19:07 You then
00:19:09 With regards to your mom
00:19:11 She says I like a lot a lot of what this person has to say
00:19:15 now
00:19:18 You know the old broken clock is right twice a day. It can certainly be the case that somebody who is a
00:19:24 Drug addict and promiscuous can say some things that are useful intelligent insightful maybe even wise, right?
00:19:32 Yes, I I agree and I I do want to say that this person is somebody I used to really follow and listen to and
00:19:39 I still think
00:19:40 Highly of him in some regards. He is a very smart person. So that's not all he is
00:19:45 Anyway, yes, exactly what you're saying, right? So what you're doing though is you're saying
00:19:52 that
00:19:54 if the person has a
00:19:57 Drug addiction and is promiscuous. That means that they are fundamentally unwise and
00:20:03 the smarter they are
00:20:06 The worse it is because they should be able to see over the horizon of immediate pleasure to the consequences of what it is that
00:20:12 They're doing now is that does this commentator also attempt to or do they?
00:20:17 Make kind of cool
00:20:20 this
00:20:22 Drug stuff, you know like the DMT fetishists
00:20:26 And and all of that like they're trying to make it
00:20:28 Hey, man, it's like 20 years of therapy in one night
00:20:31 If you haven't done it you you haven't opened the doors of your consciousness. You don't know, you know
00:20:35 Like what are you so scared of just don't be so uptight expand your mind like do they make it a positive?
00:20:39 Thing like oh, it's nature's herb
00:20:42 It's you know, it's there to make you happy and like the the marijuana stuff or whatever, right a little bit
00:20:47 You know at least smoke at least smokers don't do that or at least they haven't done that for decades
00:20:50 It used to be like smoking is cool smoking makes you cool smoking is is neat and nobody does that
00:20:55 Like yeah, everybody smoking is a disgusting habit
00:20:57 I'm sad to be addicted but I'm having a really really tough time quitting people will say right but we haven't got there with the pot
00:21:03 stuff and
00:21:05 The pot stuff and even the promiscuity stuff has a lot to do with
00:21:09 Does that person do they say? Oh, I have these terrible vices. Please don't do this or you know, is it kind of like cool a
00:21:16 Little bit more cool. It's out. Right, right, right, okay
00:21:22 Yeah, because I mean if you can imagine like if there was some commentator out there
00:21:26 who smoked cigarettes and was constantly talking about how cool cigarettes are and
00:21:33 You know, they they and listen nicotine is a stimulant. There's a reason why
00:21:38 writers smoked a lot because nicotine as a stimulant can really
00:21:45 significantly enhance creativity I
00:21:50 Mean that that's a no-kidding kind of thing
00:21:52 Smoking and I'm not please don't smoke right? I'm just you know saying that that this is the it is a brain stimulant and
00:21:59 it can
00:22:02 Significantly enhance creativity
00:22:05 And
00:22:08 So would writers say well if you want to be a good writer, you got a smoke, you know
00:22:12 It really opens the doors your creativity. It gets you in touch with your unconscious
00:22:15 It gives you energy to push through creative fatigue. You really will reach new heights of your writing
00:22:20 It's really great and people who don't want to do it. It just kind of square and paranoid and blah blah blah blah, right? I
00:22:25 Mean, there's no no one out there. Who's a smoker
00:22:28 that I know of who still talks about it as
00:22:32 cool or you know expands your consciousness even though
00:22:36 Nicotine again is a significant brain stimulant and does open up the doors to particular levels of creativity
00:22:42 That will be tough to achieve in other ways. You can achieve it in other ways, but it would be tough to achieve in other ways
00:22:50 And so yeah people who are smokers are like, oh it's a gross habit and they're embarrassed about it and so on
00:22:55 But we have I don't know for reasons that I fail to understand other than it's probably
00:23:00 Communist funding propaganda for reasons that I'd really don't understand
00:23:04 Part
00:23:08 Just isn't the same thing it and it should be it should be the same as smoking
00:23:12 In fact worse in many ways than then smoking because smoking doesn't give you hallucinations. It doesn't
00:23:17 Rob you of
00:23:19 Ambition it doesn't usually become some sort of chronic thing and partly that is because
00:23:23 There is this cool element to part
00:23:26 That it just maintains itself
00:23:29 Decade after decade after decade after it, you know smoking has fallen out of favor enormously
00:23:35 But and even the promiscuity right the promiscuity could be you know, I have this dangerous sex addiction and I end up
00:23:44 You know people could say I have this dangerous sex addiction and they end up
00:23:48 plowing trashy broken people
00:23:50 Getting diseases risking pregnancies, but I'm just addicted
00:23:55 In the same like Ben Affleck probably wouldn't talk about how cool gambling is because I mean he as far as I understand it was a
00:24:03 Significant gambling addict an alcoholic won't tell you how cool drinking is
00:24:06 I mean they might try a little bit when they're younger
00:24:08 But it doesn't really work that much when you get older and your health starts falling apart, right?
00:24:12 so
00:24:14 This is a very big issue that came up between you and your mom is why it's not not petty at all
00:24:19 It's a very big issue
00:24:21 Which is she's not saying. Oh, yeah. I know the promiscuity and the drug addiction. That's terrible, but
00:24:26 You know there was this
00:24:30 This interesting thing that he said the other day that really had me me think or whatever, right but she's like
00:24:35 No, I like him for his drug addiction and his promiscuity is it did she say maybe I like him or she does like him
00:24:42 No, she said I that's maybe what I like about him. Maybe so she did say that's maybe what I like about him
00:24:49 Mm-hmm. Now that's incredibly manipulative boom right there. This is why you got angry. That's really important
00:24:56 So she didn't say
00:25:00 That's what I like about it. She didn't take a stand. She said well, maybe that's what I like about him. That's a that's a maneuver
00:25:07 She's not being honest with you
00:25:10 She's not saying I find his drug addiction and promiscuity attractive, which doesn't speak well of me
00:25:14 but maybe I'm addicted to his addiction or whatever right and
00:25:17 She didn't say I do really like and respect his drug addiction and and promiscuity
00:25:24 She said well, maybe I do think they did it, you know, it's it's just it's a chess move. It's it's not an honest statement
00:25:29 It's a maneuver. It's a power play
00:25:31 That you nailed it yes exactly it was not an honest statement it was just
00:25:40 Exactly what you said? Sorry. Yeah, right, right. So as a power play
00:25:44 How did that strike you in your heart when your mom said that because the anger is the reaction
00:25:55 Like if I accidentally put my hand on a hot stove I
00:26:02 Will jerk my hand back. That's the reaction but the stimulus is the heat. It's the pain, right?
00:26:10 so you
00:26:11 lashed out
00:26:13 because
00:26:15 You got and I say triggered not because it's oh you're triggered like something went against your ideology
00:26:21 I don't mean I mean but you got triggered and being triggered can be perfectly rational perfectly reasonable, right?
00:26:27 I mean if you're a woman walking down a dark alley and some guy is creeping up behind you trying to be as quiet as
00:26:32 Possible you get triggered and it's a good thing to where you want that fight or flight, right?
00:26:35 so
00:26:37 Something happened when she did this manipulative power play to dominate
00:26:43 Something happened to you in your heart now if you can get to that
00:26:50 Then you can figure out what to do. But if you're just reacting and getting mad that's to cover up a knowledge
00:26:57 That I think most likely gives you some significant despair
00:27:06 I'm trying to animal analyze and just be back in that moment and it it's just
00:27:12 The first word that comes to my head. It's just immaturity. It's just this
00:27:16 immature I
00:27:19 Don't know I don't have any information to give back to you. I just I just want to
00:27:25 Shove it in your face. But yet not she's not shoving anything in my fate. I
00:27:31 Wait, so she your perception that she was shoving something in your face
00:27:36 Yeah, just like I'm
00:27:38 Kind of going back to the I'm cool. This is this is cool to me
00:27:42 I but yet I have nothing else to bring to the conversation but trying to deflect into well
00:27:47 Just trying to make me mad almost and this is a significant part of how I feel our relationship
00:27:54 It's almost like she's a kid and I'm the mom like she's like, well, I think you know sneaking pot and sleeping around is so cool
00:28:02 Like that like she's trying to be rebellious team stuff. Yes. Yes. Yes, exactly and it just made me so mad. It's like
00:28:09 Cool. All right, you're the mother here
00:28:12 Come on, like stop acting immature stop thinking that that's that's fine
00:28:18 If you really feel that way, but it was just the way she did it and I like you said, I know
00:28:23 Wait, sorry, but I mean, it's fine. If you really feel that way, it's fine. If she really respects drug addiction and promiscuity. No
00:28:30 It's not fine it's just if she came and said well I just
00:28:33 Honest it's what you want to say to her. Don't be manipulative. Just be honest
00:28:39 Is that right like if you like this stuff tell me I don't like this
00:28:45 Don't tell me but don't pretend to like it as some power play or maybe I do or what if I did right?
00:28:49 Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, so
00:28:52 there's a reason why she provoked you and
00:28:57 The reason why she provoked you is so that you would not experience
00:29:01 the feeling
00:29:04 That you would have if you recognize something without being triggered
00:29:07 Sorry, that's a really bad way of putting it and halfway through that. I'm like I got lost in my own language
00:29:12 So let me rewind and take another run at this, right?
00:29:15 Okay, so
00:29:18 You got angry and your mother provoked anger in you
00:29:25 So that you wouldn't feel something else
00:29:27 Because you see anger is
00:29:31 hope
00:29:33 The people I'm sure maybe you get this right, but most people don't understand that when you get angry at something you have hope
00:29:40 There is a state, you know if you're freezing to death
00:29:46 There's a state where you sort of feel warm and blissful and peaceful and and that's your body saying well, you know
00:29:52 We had a good run, but let's shut down right? We're not you know, you resign yourself
00:29:56 You know, like I remember seeing some movie
00:29:59 I used to have these dreams
00:30:00 Decades ago about this giant wave that would keep hitting me on the shore and the ocean and tear me limb from limb
00:30:05 I
00:30:06 talked about this years ago in the show and I remember seeing some movie where a
00:30:10 Couple was standing in front of some giant wave a tsunami like I don't know
00:30:14 20 stories high or something and they just stood there and hugged each other
00:30:17 They didn't try and run they didn't try and fuck cuz they knew they were gonna die right from this this giant one
00:30:21 Mm-hmm. There's no anger there. There's resignation. There's acceptance, right?
00:30:25 So we get angry when we think we can do something about it
00:30:29 If we can because the anger is the fight of flight I can act in some way to make the situation better
00:30:36 now people who won't connect with us people who we can't connect with
00:30:41 people who are
00:30:44 Manipulative like kind of not there. All they do is seek advantage or seek domination or maybe seek submission in order to later seek domination
00:30:51 But they're not there in an honest direct way that you can actually connect with they will often seek to provoke anger in us
00:30:57 Because they don't want us to experience the despair of no connection and not just no connection in the moment
00:31:04 No possibility of connection
00:31:07 So that's why I'm asking when your mom does a power play like this and you know
00:31:14 You and I and the whole world knows this is far from the first time she's done it and far from the last time
00:31:18 She's ever gonna do it when she does a power play like that and is directly dishonest
00:31:23 manipulative false
00:31:26 controlling
00:31:28 Dominant
00:31:31 When she does that
00:31:33 There's a feeling underneath the anger and the anger is provoked so that you don't experience that feeling and you continue to feel the hope
00:31:42 That you can fix things with your mom
00:31:46 Wow, okay, so when she says stuff like that
00:31:49 There's a spasm of something deep down
00:31:52 Before the anger
00:31:56 And that's unacceptable to you and it's unacceptable to your mom and the anger covers it up I
00:32:04 See, so what's that feeling?
00:32:07 That we don't relate that I don't feel
00:32:14 we have a lot in common that we're just completely different people and it really annoys me and also I
00:32:21 Said this before that. I just I feel like I'm the mom in the relationship. I feel like I'm the one
00:32:30 the
00:32:32 believe it or not the more mature one and the one who has a lot more knowledge and and wisdom and just
00:32:41 Just don't I don't respect her I don't have
00:32:44 I don't look to her like a mom. She's she doesn't act like a mom, right?
00:32:52 Now I'm right. No. No, you're not rambling at all everything you said
00:32:56 Perfectly important and not rambling at all
00:32:59 That that was you that was your mom intervening so that you and I couldn't talk just so you know
00:33:04 That was your mom Benji in saying stop talking
00:33:06 Don't have an ally
00:33:08 Don't reveal me
00:33:11 You can't be the mom in the relationship if you if you if you imagine that you're the mom in the relationship
00:33:15 There is no relationship because you're not the mom. You didn't raise her. You didn't have authority. You didn't have control you didn't have
00:33:20 Power when she was growing up. You didn't shape the relationship. You were shaped by the relationship
00:33:25 So you can't you can't parent your own parents?
00:33:27 You can't you can't be the mom without you can't be the mom with your mom. You can be the mom with your kids
00:33:32 You can't be the mom with your husband. You can't be the mom with your parents
00:33:36 You can't be the mom with your boss. You can't be the mom with the taxi driver
00:33:41 You can only be the mom with your kids, right
00:33:43 Right, so you say I feel like the mom in the relationship
00:33:48 In order to avoid
00:33:52 the feeling that we're trying to get to
00:33:54 Right because you say to me. Well, I feel like the mom in the relationship. She's immature. She's this then the other right?
00:34:00 But even that is to avoid the feeling
00:34:03 And that feeling
00:34:09 Is the key has to want to do the feeling when your mom says well, maybe I do did it right
00:34:17 What's that feeling
00:34:21 I'm not sure. Yes, you are. You're feeling it now
00:34:31 I'm with you there. I've sympathized. I really do. I really do. I'm not cold about this. This is very deep stuff
00:34:39 What's that feeling
00:34:41 Not sure I just know that I'm very sad and emotional right now, right?
00:34:52 Right
00:34:55 And you should be and it would be crazy it would be inhuman not to be so this is a very deeply human moment
00:35:05 right
00:35:06 Yes
00:35:08 Another sounds ridiculous. I almost don't know why I I'm I'm just getting very sad and emotional and I'm
00:35:18 Not even sure why I mean, I know this is all
00:35:22 sad in general, I'm just
00:35:25 Struggling with the feeling
00:35:29 right
00:35:31 because the feeling is
00:35:34 beneficial to you and
00:35:36 Harmful to your mother's interests and
00:35:40 That's why we react with anger in these situations
00:35:44 Which is beneficial to our mother's interests and harmful to our own interests and what I mean by that is
00:35:49 The feeling that you have of the sadness is
00:35:55 I think getting close to the core of
00:35:59 what's going on and
00:36:02 When we are raised by dysfunctional people
00:36:05 All we can do is serve their needs and their interests
00:36:08 We don't we can't have needs and interests that are contradictory to them
00:36:15 without them smacking us or banging us or yelling at us or storming out or abandoning us or
00:36:20 punishing us or hitting us or something right just
00:36:23 Negative stimuli like oh, you're not giving me what I want bang bang bang gonna hurt you until you give me what I want
00:36:31 What's the matter with you I
00:36:33 Have a preference which I have clearly stated. You're not giving it to me. You're bad. You're wrong and
00:36:38 I'm gonna apply negative stimuli until you give me what I deserve
00:36:43 You exist to serve me
00:36:48 And if you don't serve me I will punish you until you remember your role and do what the hell I want
00:36:56 You
00:36:58 Now if that's way off the mark for your childhood feel free to let me know
00:37:07 So
00:37:12 My mom was not
00:37:14 abusive
00:37:16 But the way she would react to stuff you did mention that if
00:37:22 She didn't get her way or she's and this has been much more apparent as I've become an adult
00:37:28 If she doesn't get her way
00:37:30 She cuts me off. She doesn't talk to me and then most of the time
00:37:36 I don't even know she's mad until I'm like, hey, what's going on? And she just doesn't respond. She doesn't respond
00:37:41 She doesn't respond and then I finally have to be like
00:37:44 Are you okay? Did something happen? And then finally she'll say something. Yes, I'm fine
00:37:50 I just I don't want to talk to you right now
00:37:52 and
00:37:53 Then I mean eventually we'll have a conversation and I'll find out I did something to upset her and I had no idea
00:38:01 I had even done it
00:38:03 It's possible in certain situations. I should have picked up on something but I can tell you that
00:38:09 For the most part I was clueless. I didn't know her feelings were hurt. She did not tell me she didn't express in any way
00:38:18 Until she just decided I'm really mad at her and I'm not gonna do her and and she did this when you were a child
00:38:24 as well
00:38:26 To some degree no, I just not as much but
00:38:30 want to say to some degree that yeah, she would just she
00:38:35 Wouldn't completely cut me off but because I think she knew I was just a little kid
00:38:41 But as I got older I would say
00:38:46 More and it started happening more and more
00:38:48 So when you were a kid and you displeased your mother
00:38:52 What happened in general or what happened often?
00:38:56 He would yell at me she would yell and what would she say
00:39:01 A scream at me don't whatever it might have been
00:39:13 Do that you're don't you're not allowed to do that I
00:39:16 Something to that degree I have to say it didn't happen terribly often
00:39:25 but when it did it would just be some kind of I'm I'm very angry at you and how dare you do this or say
00:39:31 This or you should know better that that sort of thing
00:39:35 Yellow scream
00:39:39 Do you use both which I would?
00:39:43 Mostly yell, but there if it was really bad I would say screaming scream and
00:39:50 Then she would withdraw her affections to some degree if it was less serious. Is that right?
00:39:56 If I'm wrong tell me I want to get the facts here this is not like don't don't anything I'm saying I
00:40:07 I don't think so. It was very rare if I was I want to say maybe a couple different times
00:40:14 She would just be mad and just say I need a moment. I remember her saying a few different times like honey
00:40:21 Just because I'm mad about something doesn't mean I still love you very much
00:40:24 But I just need a few minutes or she would walk away if it wasn't an immediate. I'm screaming at you
00:40:30 It would just be I need to walk away for a few minutes
00:40:33 I love you very much, but I just need a few minutes to calm down that kind of thing
00:40:37 Right, but there was no no hitting or anything like that
00:40:40 Mm-hmm. I
00:40:42 Can't say there was only one time she hit me it was on my leg
00:40:48 We were in the car and I don't remember at all what happened. I just remember we were having a conversation. I
00:40:54 Said whatever it was. I I don't want to be too defensive, you know, but I said something
00:41:00 I just know that was very out of line and she was so angry. She hit me on the leg and
00:41:06 I remember, you know kind of quietly crying to myself because my mother never did that
00:41:11 But I mean she apologized for it greatly and said, you know, I should never have done that
00:41:16 I was very angry, but that's no excuse
00:41:19 But that that was I mean again, it's not great. But it's certainly that to me is not
00:41:24 You know, it's not unforgivable because people make mistakes and didn't do you any permanent damage physically and she apologized
00:41:30 And so to me, that's a wash if that makes sense
00:41:33 Sure, sure, but that would be the only time right? Okay, okay
00:41:37 You haven't mentioned your dad. Oh, sorry. Yeah, just just do you have you can give me a bit of that story?
00:41:45 Sure, it's pretty brief by my mom and him were married and
00:41:52 He was a drug addict and
00:41:57 abusive and
00:41:59 only she one night had enough and left him and
00:42:03 They got a divorce and he took off he was absent from my life
00:42:10 He has a brother my uncle and and my mom tried to get him
00:42:17 when I was
00:42:19 About 12 11 or 12 got him to kind of come back to the area
00:42:23 Tried to get him help so that he could be a father to me
00:42:27 that was the first time I met him in my memory because I don't remember him from childhood and
00:42:32 Unfortunately, it didn't work
00:42:35 He went right back to drugs and took off and I haven't talked or seen him since
00:42:41 I'm sorry, and I I just missed some of this
00:42:44 Which was so your father was the drug addict and he had a brother which your mother tried to
00:42:51 Get into your life. Sorry. I'm just missed. I missed that part. Oh, so I'm still
00:42:57 Not
00:42:59 I'm close or we've always been kind of a part of my father's family
00:43:04 Even though he was kind of the backseat like when my grandparents were alive. They were still very much in my life and
00:43:10 my uncle who is my dad's brother and
00:43:14 Inside of the film. I've always been we've always been in touch with them and they've always been around so in there
00:43:22 you know reasonably
00:43:24 Good people but my my uncle wanted to get my dad some help and wanted him to basically be a father to me
00:43:31 And so they they tried that tried getting him help and unfortunately just didn't work
00:43:37 Okay, okay now you understand I hope you understand how jaw-dropping this is to me
00:43:47 Okay
00:43:51 Absolutely, can you really I'm sorry if you're gonna get emotional but it's gonna happen
00:43:55 I just want to I just want to warn you ahead of time
00:43:59 How absolutely completely and totally jaw-dropping this is to me
00:44:03 Your father destroyed his life with drugs, right?
00:44:13 Hmm, yes, right
00:44:17 One of the greatest if not the single greatest tragedy in your entire life was your father's drug addiction
00:44:24 Yes, and your mother said what?
00:44:29 Maybe I'm fine with drug addiction
00:44:34 Holy shit sister
00:44:38 Holy shit, I
00:44:41 Don't mean to it's a laugh of oh my god. I I
00:44:46 Didn't even shit
00:44:47 Put that together. Oh
00:44:49 my god
00:44:52 She said what
00:44:55 Think you might have had a reason to get maybe I'm fine with drug addiction. I mean I married one
00:45:04 Yeah
00:45:07 And it destroyed his life broke your heart
00:45:12 Every day for 37 years, maybe I'm fine with that
00:45:15 Maybe that's good
00:45:19 Holy shit
00:45:22 What a thing to say
00:45:25 Yes, I
00:45:27 Wow, I'm
00:45:29 Be like my wife saying maybe I'm fine with childbeating
00:45:33 Yeah, oh
00:45:38 My god, oh
00:45:42 My god
00:45:44 That is the bomb she's willing to roll into the conversation just to win
00:45:49 That's the harm she's willing to do just to win in the moment
00:45:58 My heart is pounding at that statement
00:46:08 You
00:46:10 Yours as yet is not
00:46:15 Breathing I'm just I'm just breathing
00:46:19 Okay
00:46:21 Just taking it in but you understand, right?
00:46:24 It's the biggest heartache of your life and the most catastrophic
00:46:28 decision your mother made was
00:46:33 To get married to and have children with a drug addict, right?
00:46:37 Yeah
00:46:40 And now she listens to a drug addict and says, oh maybe I'm fine with it
00:46:44 To you who had to live with a father is he still alive?
00:46:55 Yes, as far as I know yes, and what was he addicted to or is he cocaine cocaine? Oh
00:47:03 man
00:47:05 Took out a BG so
00:47:08 Okay, and is he's not part of your life at the moment. Is that right? No. No, absolutely not. No
00:47:14 Wow, that's a hell of a thing to say yeah, I I didn't oh
00:47:28 You got it you got it in the moment
00:47:33 I'm more deep inside. I think you're yes. Oh, you got it. Yeah
00:47:37 Yeah, because I was I was kind of surprised why you'd f-bomb your mom and I'm like, oh, yeah now I get it
00:47:42 Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me
00:47:46 In order to win against you my daughter
00:47:49 I will stab a steely knife right into the deepest wound in your heart and twist the fuck out of it
00:47:56 Maybe I'm fine with drug addiction
00:48:01 Do
00:48:03 That's murderous in my humble opinion
00:48:07 There's usually is in most reasonably decent people, I mean there's a line, right?
00:48:19 There's a line
00:48:22 You know the typical for you think of this sort of a typical Italian verbal slugfest, right?
00:48:28 And the line is you better not talk about my mom
00:48:31 Right James Woods is not known for respecting that line on Twitter, but anyway, so but you know, you know
00:48:41 No, you can't you can't talk about that, right
00:48:44 So in most people
00:48:49 That are decent
00:48:53 They might get angry, but they won't
00:48:57 You know, we all have a wound right everybody has wounds and
00:49:00 When you get to know people or I guess you're born from them everybody knows your
00:49:09 Your wounds right? Everybody knows your wounds
00:49:12 And the closer you get to them the more they know your wounds
00:49:18 And trust is knowing they're never going to use your wounds to control you
00:49:26 They're never going to exploit your wounds
00:49:28 They're never going to win using your wounds just as you
00:49:33 Will never try to win using their wounds
00:49:36 Because otherwise you're exploiting the abusers, right?
00:49:40 So
00:49:48 Your mother knows all of your wounds
00:49:52 All of them why cuz she made many of them, right?
00:49:55 She knows where the bodies are buried because she buried them, right?
00:50:00 So your mother has tremendous power over you
00:50:05 She knows all of your wounds and she knows exactly which buttons to push to win
00:50:14 She knows that you can't stand it
00:50:19 When she withdraws from you without explanation, she knows that it tortures you
00:50:24 It's a bit of a female thing
00:50:27 But it's not exclusively a female thing
00:50:30 everybody knows that
00:50:33 With men if a guy does if a male friend doesn't call for a couple of weeks. Yeah, I'm busy
00:50:37 All right, who he's busy, whatever, right?
00:50:39 But if a female friend doesn't call for a couple of weeks, it's like what's wrong?
00:50:42 It's just it's it's a it's it's a beautiful thing about women
00:50:47 But it's everybody knows that this is sort of the thing, right?
00:50:49 And your mother knows exactly how tortuous it is for you when she withdraws and doesn't tell you why she knows that exactly
00:50:56 completely and totally down to the last detail I
00:50:59 Guarantee
00:51:02 And I would hope so because she's the only parent I got so if if she
00:51:09 Turns her back on me. I mean I feel
00:51:14 Yeah, it was devastating when she did that I mean as in this is what she does not did does
00:51:20 Yeah
00:51:22 It is devastating. It is devastating
00:51:25 So as your only parent
00:51:28 She knows exactly how powerful it is
00:51:32 when she
00:51:35 Abandons you
00:51:38 She turns her back on you
00:51:42 You
00:51:44 Now
00:51:46 Here's the bomb right
00:51:49 Five words
00:51:52 So once you understand my friend that she knows exactly how devastating it is for you how agonizing it is for you how painful it is
00:52:00 for you
00:52:02 Once you know and really understand that she knows and understands all of that at the deepest level
00:52:07 Are you ready for the five words?
00:52:11 Okay
00:52:13 Are you ready? All right, she knows how devastating it is for you five words where the lights go on
00:52:21 She knows exactly
00:52:25 How tortuous it is for you?
00:52:27 but
00:52:28 She does it
00:52:30 Anyway
00:52:39 And that's
00:52:41 And that's what I don't understand
00:52:46 Because you wouldn't if you knew something that caused incredible emotional
00:52:54 Difficulty for your son
00:52:59 You'd be like well, I'm not gonna do that
00:53:04 Because that hurts him right, of course, okay, of course, right your mother knows
00:53:11 Exactly how tortuous this is for you. Mm-hmm. This remember I was talking about the sort of gap analysis how different you are
00:53:20 Mm-hmm
00:53:23 You wouldn't do it in a million years how much money would you accept to emotionally torture your children?
00:53:33 No, no, come on, I'll make an offer, you know, there's oh my god, let's go
00:53:38 More than anything I had not not no I'd torture myself, you know
00:53:46 How much?
00:53:48 How much money would you accept to tell your children that you hate them? Well, there's no amount of money, right?
00:53:54 There's no I'd rather live in a car
00:53:57 Under a bridge like I'm not I don't care how much money you have. I'm never telling my daughter I hit her
00:54:02 Because it would devastate her of course, right
00:54:06 So
00:54:11 There's nothing
00:54:13 That would cause you to do something that would emotionally torture your children
00:54:22 But your mom does see the difference
00:54:30 Yes, and it is almost impossible to comprehend this
00:54:35 It is honestly it is almost impossible to comprehend this if you ever had someone in your life you ever had someone in your life
00:54:45 They're just making bad decisions they're just sailing into disaster well, obviously your dad, right
00:54:53 But other people right? They're just sailing into disaster
00:54:58 And nothing you say will change their course, right
00:55:03 And if you had someone like that other than your dad I
00:55:09 Mean my mom
00:55:13 Right, but besides her yes rent isn't that horrible? Yes. It really is
00:55:21 It really is because when you just see people making these terrible decisions
00:55:29 and
00:55:31 They won't listen they won't change and they also get mad at you for trying to help them
00:55:34 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's it's it's horrible
00:55:38 It's like going swimming with someone, you know, they're gonna start drowning and try and pull you down
00:55:45 But that's the gap analysis
00:55:53 There's nothing that would cause you there's no incentive that you would accept to act towards your children the way your mother acts towards you
00:56:01 hmm, I
00:56:04 Couldn't pay you not that I ever would but I couldn't pay you enough to do it
00:56:09 But you couldn't pay her enough to not do it
00:56:12 Yes
00:56:23 She knows how much it hurts you but she does it anyway
00:56:26 or
00:56:29 To put it in they say but she does it anyway like it's somehow she doesn't want to
00:56:34 But she's
00:56:38 Yeah
00:56:41 Your father's addicted to drugs and your mother's addicted to dominance
00:56:44 to power
00:56:47 Because she doesn't have any. Oh
00:56:49 No, she does. She has power over you
00:56:53 You mean elsewhere in her life? Yes, you're no you're absolutely right that that's true, but
00:56:59 Most of the rest of her life is yeah out of control
00:57:04 I have to tell you that in the fight after we kind of had this fight
00:57:09 we stayed and continued to talk one thing that came out of it that was
00:57:13 Enlightening but not surprising to me. I she
00:57:17 Revealed to me that her mother used to beat her
00:57:21 And I hadn't I didn't know that
00:57:23 Shit's the first time she was opening up about it and it just a lot of stuff clicked together for me after this
00:57:30 Circassian we had and I mean I felt bad for her but you know, I mean this is stuff she needs to deal with
00:57:39 That's it. Just another example. Just she just does not have feel she feels very powerless in her life
00:57:46 Right
00:57:51 Can you tell me the circumstances under which she told that she told you that she'd been beaten by her mother
00:57:55 So
00:58:01 Conversation went um after I ran over to her when she was about to leave in the car I started like
00:58:08 Yeah, I wouldn't see screaming but yelling at her that you know, you're you're not allowed to leave like this
00:58:14 you can't just cut me off and get mad we have to discuss this and talk about this and
00:58:20 It was kind of a longish conversation that we had but
00:58:25 What it what it stemmed from was I told her mom you can't act like this
00:58:30 You have to remember you're the mother in this con and in this relationship. I am NOT your mother. You are my mother
00:58:36 I am the child. You're not allowed to yell at me and scream at me and leave me like this
00:58:40 and I kept repeating that over and over and she started crying and
00:58:45 that's when she kind of feel that
00:58:50 her mother had hit her and she'd been dealing with this a lot lately and thinking and reflecting back on it and
00:58:57 She's just like I don't know why she did this to me. I don't know why you know, she treated me like this
00:59:02 She loved my brother more than she loved me. He never got hit. I was always the one that got hit and
00:59:08 so on
00:59:10 I
00:59:17 Reject the intimacy of this conversation doesn't mean I'm right doesn't me I could be completely wrong doesn't mean I'm right
00:59:25 But I reject that this was intimate I reject that this was revelatory and I submit
00:59:32 That it's exactly the same selfishness that produces
00:59:36 the cold shouldering to begin with
00:59:40 And I'll tell you why I could be wrong. I could be wrong. I'll just tell you please I'll tell you why
00:59:46 Okay
00:59:48 You were upset with her, right?
00:59:50 It's very you were very upset with her and who did she turn it into who was it about
00:59:57 Her yeah, you were angry and upset with her
01:00:03 And what she should have been doing is focusing on your anger and upset but instead you ended up focusing on her
01:00:12 It's another move
01:00:16 You
01:00:18 Okay, yeah, I can see that yes
01:00:23 Again, I I hate to say it because you know, she's crying maybe she's upset you but listen I
01:00:29 Much to say about this. So when I was younger, I confronted someone who had mistreated me when I was younger and
01:00:37 That person cried I wish I hadn't done it I felt bad about it every day
01:00:43 I
01:00:45 Never asked me how I felt
01:00:49 It was self-pity
01:00:52 It was a maneuver
01:00:55 It's still I still wasn't there in the conversation still wasn't about me I had the complaint
01:01:07 You know, there's an old Monty Python joke a little skit I can't remember it too well, but it's about a guy running a complaints department
01:01:15 And a customer comes up and says I wish to make a complaint and the guy says you wish you wish to make a complaint
01:01:23 I this chairs uncomfortable. My shoes are too tight. My back hurts
01:01:27 I've got piles. I'm having a terrible day
01:01:33 My wife's gonna leave me my kids don't like me I don't make enough money
01:01:37 I'm stuck in this job and you've got a complaint. Are you kidding me?
01:01:39 Right and that's kind of funny because
01:01:45 He's supposed to listen to complaints
01:01:47 But instead all he's doing is making complaints making it about him and the customer never gets hurt, right?
01:01:51 right
01:01:54 You have a complaint about your mother
01:01:58 She's folks be supposed to focus on you
01:02:03 Right
01:02:05 Right, right, but she doesn't you end up focusing on her and serving her needs because she reveals I was beaten
01:02:12 Now what that means to me is I know exactly how bad it is to have a mother mistreat you
01:02:20 So I'm sorry. I
01:02:23 have the least
01:02:25 Excuse to treat you badly because I know exactly how it is to be mistreated by a mother
01:02:31 So, I'm sorry, let's talk about you as opposed to I was beaten let's focus on me it's all about me
01:02:38 No, it's can you imagine if you're if your son sorry to drop if your son or your sons have a complaint as they will when
01:02:49 they get older and
01:02:51 You say oh you have problems with me as your mother let me tell you about my problems with my mother
01:03:00 I would never do that. And of course, you wouldn't but your mom did
01:03:04 And she did it in a pretty manipulative way because she kind of got weak and
01:03:13 Everything about it just started yeah crying and I knew what was when she started crying
01:03:19 I knew that it was gonna be something about her parents
01:03:22 I what everything I was saying was definitely hitting on some kind of a nerve with her and yes. Yeah
01:03:29 right, I
01:03:31 Kind of got of course I listened but in I told her no mom. I'm here for you
01:03:37 But I can't be your therapist. I can't this is a boundary that I were parent and child
01:03:44 It's not that I don't want to know this stuff, but you're kind of unloading to me and that's just not
01:03:48 Appropriate you need to find somebody who's your equal now
01:03:53 You're still trying to parent you're still trying to be in charge. You're still trying to mother her
01:03:57 You're still trying to tell her the basics
01:03:59 Yeah, I tell you what I would have said
01:04:01 Which is not right or wrong and it's easy for me because it's not my mom
01:04:05 But what I would have said is something like this
01:04:07 You got to be kidding me lady. You got to be kidding me
01:04:11 I've known you for 37 years
01:04:15 Mm-hmm. And now I have a significant issue with me and you suddenly decide to tell me how you were beaten as a child
01:04:21 Yet 37 years to tell me
01:04:24 Yes, yeah, and now you only bring it up when I have a big problem with you. You've got to be kidding me
01:04:29 Get get your head out of your own ass look me in the eyes and try and focus on me
01:04:35 Just try I'm just just try see if you can I'm curious if you can but let's not make I have a problem with you
01:04:43 Let's not make this about you. My problem is with you. I
01:04:46 Don't want to hear about your problems with your mom
01:04:48 Right now anyway
01:04:52 Stop playing
01:04:54 Now again easy for me because it's not my mom I you know what I mean like if I was in your situation
01:05:03 I probably would have actually the bit this you know, everyone has their fantasy speech, right? Yes. I
01:05:08 mean
01:05:11 Yes, no, you're absolutely right and I didn't even see that in the moment
01:05:14 But once again, and this is just what it's been like for many years since I've been an adult
01:05:20 I feel like I do these things where I'm like, this is what you need to do this
01:05:24 I've told her for years that she's needed to go to therapy and I mean I went myself
01:05:29 There was a time where I realized I needed it and I was able to do that, but she's never been able to do that
01:05:35 I very frustrating that you haven't done significant wrong
01:05:39 The people who resist therapy are people who've done massive wrong
01:05:48 Hmm guaranteed
01:05:50 I'm gonna handle it myself. I'm not going to therapy. I don't need a head shrinker
01:05:54 Well, that's because they're terrified that the therapist is gonna awaken some latent conscience within them might have them throw themselves off a bridge
01:06:02 Wow, yeah
01:06:07 So
01:06:10 Let's put some meat on the bone if you don't mind I
01:06:14 Don't know you don't even know what that means. Are you barbecuing? What are you talking about? Okay, sorry
01:06:18 So what I mean is so the question is as far as I understand it
01:06:23 What what's gonna happen moving forward, right?
01:06:25 Yes, okay, so
01:06:30 I know the question that will give you the answer
01:06:36 I'm sorry. This is sounds also who I do the question a lot so pompous and all that
01:06:41 I'm sorry about that, but I do I do I know I know the question is gonna give you the answer
01:06:45 Hmm, how does your current relationship with your mom benefit your sons?
01:06:50 How are you a better person a better mother more available more happy more emotionally connected to them
01:06:57 When you spend time with your mom in other words if they had the choice
01:07:01 Would they say oh, yeah mom go see grandma
01:07:05 Because you're always happy and connected and even better mom when you come back
01:07:10 You
01:07:12 Can you phrase the question again, I I heard everything you said I don't know that's fine. That's fine
01:07:21 Are you a better mother when you spend time with your mother?
01:07:27 Are you a better mother to your sons when you spend time with your mother?
01:07:30 No, no, it's not and it doesn't yeah enhance and it's not even close, right?
01:07:37 Now does it does absolutely not it distracts you. Yeah to some degree it retraumatizes you it provokes your anger your temper
01:07:43 You're upset. You don't sleep. Well, you're just you're distracted. You're fuming. You're right all of this, right? Am I wrong?
01:07:49 No, you're a hundred percent, right?
01:07:52 Okay, see this is what people don't understand about. I'm you do I'm sure I've been in general
01:07:58 This is what people don't understand about what I talked about. So listen
01:08:02 If you want to be a if you if you want to smoke pot, I think it's stupid
01:08:07 Okay, a couple of things. I need you to not do one. Don't waltz around the world pretending. It's cool
01:08:12 it's not you're sad pitiful addict who can't handle reality and you're
01:08:16 Self-medicating for childhood trauma and calling it a virtue at the expense of your own life. Okay, but it's solitary
01:08:23 Now don't drive don't fly planes don't operate heavy machinery
01:08:29 Don't put your stupid drug addiction out there where it's gonna harm me or my family or my son my daughter
01:08:33 But
01:08:37 If you become a dad guess what stop taking drugs
01:08:42 Stop taking drugs
01:08:46 Because it's no longer about your choice
01:08:49 This is I mean, this is something because we you know, most of us were raised by I dare say
01:08:55 Selfish boomer parents, right? I'm probably your mom falls. It ain't selfish boomer parents, right and selfish boomer parents as a whole
01:09:01 Have no fucking clue what it is to sacrifice their own interest for their children
01:09:06 They didn't sit there and March and say oh my god, we can't have this national debt. That's terrible for our kids
01:09:11 No, they were like, oh wait, we get to spend more money because we don't have to take care of our own parents. Fantastic
01:09:17 Let's go to Cabo. Let's go buy a condo in Florida
01:09:24 And
01:09:26 They're like wait we get free health care and the bills get passed to our kids. Whoo-hoo fantastic. Let's go to Cabo
01:09:33 Let's buy a condo in Florida
01:09:36 Right the idea or the idea that they would sit there and say oh my gosh
01:09:40 You know this creeping socialism is really bad for our kids. We got to go fix up these schools
01:09:45 We got a we got a protest we got a we got to act because our kids are being indoctrinated
01:09:50 They don't care about that. I go great. I don't have to pay for school. Fantastic. Whoo for you
01:09:54 So in Jen again, there's lots of exceptions. This is very much a generalization
01:09:58 but because
01:10:01 You were raised I think by this type of person
01:10:04 It's hard for you to say well this decision isn't mine
01:10:11 Right like if you
01:10:15 Live alone and you smoke drugs
01:10:19 Bad
01:10:21 But to a large degree you're harming nobody but yourself
01:10:24 But if you become a parent your decision about whether you should or shouldn't smoke drugs is not yours anymore
01:10:29 It's not yours
01:10:34 That doesn't exist because you're no longer isolated as a human being
01:10:40 You know, I I can practice judo if I want at home
01:10:46 Alone, I can't practice judo in a crowded mall. Why cuz I'm gonna hit someone
01:10:51 Because I'm no longer isolated so it's not just about my decision
01:10:56 You know some of the tough topics that I took on in this show I took on precisely because I'm a parent
01:11:05 Right, I mean my daughter's gonna get blamed for the underperformance of certain ethnic groups, it's not her fault
01:11:16 That there is on average different IQ levels not her fault
01:11:21 So it's not like then it doesn't really become my choice
01:11:28 I mean I can sort of pretend it was an entirely solitary decision. It's like well I can sail through life
01:11:33 In the remainder that I have like I'm way more than halfway done. I can sail through life and
01:11:39 Do okay, but my daughter's gonna live in the world where she's gonna get blamed for things that not her fault
01:11:45 That's not right. That's not right. Sorry and
01:11:48 We don't know what it's like to be loved to the point where people are willing to make enormous
01:11:52 Sacrifices on our behalf. We just don't we don't really know what that's like those of us who are raised by boomers on average
01:11:58 Because for them it was like oh, well that's uncomfortable I don't talk about that
01:12:04 Well, doesn't it can have a huge negative consequence on your children? Oh
01:12:07 No, but but I find it unpleasant. I find it difficult
01:12:11 Okay, but what about your kids? What's good for them?
01:12:14 Can we have a conversation about cutting national spending? No
01:12:17 Why because it's uncomfortable wait, but isn't massive debt gonna be really bad for your kids
01:12:23 No, but I find it uncomfortable. Like that's that's all we have. It's all it's a whole model right there
01:12:28 And it's crap
01:12:31 Selfish narcissistic crap, right?
01:12:34 So what you do as a result and I have massive sympathy and that this is going out to everyone
01:12:39 Right. I'm telling you how to make decisions
01:12:43 Because you're sitting there and saying what's my relationship with my mother how should I improve it? How should I fix it?
01:12:49 What should I do? Like it's just you and her right?
01:12:51 Me your relationship with your mother is
01:12:55 Scarcely relevant to the decision. I'm sorry. I know that's it annoying thing to say, but it's true
01:13:00 Do you know why
01:13:04 It's just like your individual personal feelings about your relationship with your mother and this and then the history
01:13:09 Do you know why it's largely irrelevant?
01:13:13 Why because it only matters whether it's good for your children or not, that's all that matters I
01:13:19 Got you. Yeah. Okay, then tell me all about it because I've had enough talking I
01:13:27 Mean you're you're absolutely right. They
01:13:34 They benefit from seeing her a little bit. I mean we I
01:13:40 mean I'm the one who plans when we do anything with my mom and we get together with her and
01:13:46 Have fun with her. I mean they they love being around her. She's fun and kooky and stuff, but
01:13:51 besides that
01:13:55 There's really no yeah, I mean there's something that they're gonna get if I'm not getting any
01:14:01 Wisdom or anything from her they're definitely not gonna get that. They're just gonna get the fun kooky grandma that comes over sometimes
01:14:10 That is a wonderfully surface level analysis and true I'm not gonna dispute anything you said
01:14:15 But I'm gonna invite you to the free domain bath escape and we're gonna go go for a deep dive. You ready?
01:14:22 Okay
01:14:26 Hey, you can hang up anytime free will baby anytime and no, I'm in it I'm in it. All right
01:14:33 the better
01:14:38 There the better your son's relationship is with your mother the worse your relationship is with them
01:14:45 That's the that's the price that's the price I
01:14:53 Don't want to tell you something you've already got an instinct for if you know why
01:15:02 Go go ahead because if your grandmother sorry if your mother is great with your kids and they have a good time with her
01:15:10 Then part of you is screaming mom, why are you nice to my kids but not to me
01:15:18 And you understand that her being nice to your kids is just another power play
01:15:29 See I'm great with kids any problems you have with me must be imaginary you kids love me
01:15:34 hmm
01:15:36 You mean yeah, I'm great with kids. Don't you see you can see it vividly now
01:15:42 With your with your kids. They love me
01:15:45 They enjoy my company
01:15:48 So you all your issues are imaginary
01:15:51 It's a show
01:15:57 Because if she could be that nice to them
01:15:58 Why wasn't she that nice with you if she could be that nice if she can be that nice with them
01:16:02 Why is she not?
01:16:04 Nice with you now
01:16:06 If she can be that nice with your sons, why is she telling you?
01:16:11 Oh, no, maybe I'm fine with drug addiction the same drug addiction that destroyed
01:16:14 your father
01:16:17 If she can be nice why isn't she nice with you
01:16:25 Also, it's a building a future case
01:16:27 Because at some point things are gonna come to a head
01:16:32 With your mother and
01:16:37 Let's say you take a break from her. I don't know if you should or shouldn't I'm just telling you maybe it could happen, right?
01:16:42 And then your sons, you know, maybe it's in five years or seven years or ten years or whatever your sons gonna be like
01:16:49 Hey, where's grandma?
01:16:51 And you'd be like, oh man, you know things got really bad between us, you know, I had to take a break, right?
01:16:55 And what are your son's gonna think?
01:16:58 That's something we were to have a fight that I would do the same thing to them that's certainly part of it but also
01:17:07 Grandma's great. You must be in the wrong
01:17:11 No, I say yes and also
01:17:15 And
01:17:17 Also, if grandma is toxic and dysfunctional why was she around us
01:17:27 Right, right, do you see the future bomb that you she's rolling up through time
01:17:34 And the present distress she's called causing you by the contradictory nature of her behavior
01:17:43 Yes, I'm great with kids. Oh your daughter has a request. No F you I'm storming off
01:17:48 What?
01:17:51 It's just a play
01:17:54 In my opinion
01:17:59 Mm-hmm, because if you're nice to kids, why is she not nice to you on a more regular basis?
01:18:05 I mean she tries to be but if we go
01:18:13 If we talk about anything that's deep and she doesn't like what I say she gets mad
01:18:18 Right. So I mean look that the children your kids live very young. It's a great age, but they're not any threat to her psychologically, right?
01:18:27 right, and
01:18:30 So she can be nice because they can't trigger her in any way
01:18:42 But they'll get older and they will have questions and comments I
01:18:48 Mean I'll tell you this man. My daughter just turned 12 yesterday
01:18:53 She's like a sky laser from Aldebaran when it comes to scanning and identifying
01:19:00 Personalities in human beings. Oh my god, it's incredible
01:19:04 She's like an x-ray. I said I used to lift her like pointer at people
01:19:09 Get the full scan. It's incredible
01:19:12 Now some of that maybe, you know, we've had lots of conversations over the years some of that may be her genetics I
01:19:20 Don't know but she is like boom and and and better than me in many ways I still have
01:19:29 Sentimentality early trauma, you know, I'll never be the person who wasn't abused as a child of it, but she's just like boom scan done
01:19:38 Hmm and she's I can't think of a time and she's been wrong
01:19:41 now
01:19:44 You're a smart woman. Very smart. I
01:19:46 assume
01:19:49 The father of your children is very smart
01:19:52 So guess what your sons are gonna be very smart plus their dudes, which means they care less about social convention in general
01:20:00 So they're gonna scan your mom and you
01:20:06 And
01:20:08 If the relationship is not positive they'll know that deep down and then
01:20:18 The question is do you talk to them about it?
01:20:21 And what do you say
01:20:26 Yeah, she treats me pretty badly when she wants to win she'll really stick the knife in and pretty different dysfunction
01:20:33 Her life's out of control. She married a drug addict. She defended drug addiction as recently as when I was 37
01:20:38 She swears at me tells me to F off what are they gonna think what are they gonna say?
01:20:45 You're gonna say
01:20:49 But I would think if I were done
01:20:51 Why the heck was she around? I might even have a relationship with her. Why why bring her around us?
01:20:58 Why did you have us bond with her just to take her?
01:21:02 I
01:21:04 And it's gonna sink deep into
01:21:10 Their souls my friend
01:21:15 My sister in thought it's gonna sink deep into their souls
01:21:19 And then dysfunctional people are gonna start sniffing around your sons when they get older
01:21:25 And will they have boundaries?
01:21:32 Better
01:21:33 How will they I know that I know I know you're saying I know you're a model. You're modeling
01:21:40 that dysfunctional people
01:21:43 Totally have a place in your life
01:21:45 Even if they upset you even if they cause more stress than happiness
01:21:48 Even if they cause you sleepless nights, even if they cause you to
01:21:52 Talk for hours in a philosophy show
01:21:59 So if you put your own considerations aside because again if you were a single woman, you know
01:22:04 That's why I asked if you had kids for his very first question. I asked if you remember right?
01:22:09 Before anything else because if you're a single person then we'll talk about what's good for you
01:22:16 But if you're a mother, what do we talk about?
01:22:20 It's out of your hands, it's what's good for your kids
01:22:25 It's what's good for your kids now in the long run in general and
01:22:29 You said to me
01:22:31 Sorry, I sound like I'm cross-examined you said to me and I'm gonna quote you back
01:22:35 But you did say right like you're not you're you're not as good a mom
01:22:38 And you're a worse mom after you spent time with your mom
01:22:41 Because you're tense distracted upset when your mom's cold shouldering you it's always on your mind what's going on what happened
01:22:48 What did I do? When she gonna come back which means you're less emotionally available to your sons
01:22:53 Right. Yes, absolutely
01:22:55 That's not there. It's not their fault
01:22:58 That your mom freezes you out. It's not their fault that your mom is immature and it's not their fault
01:23:04 That she's in your life, so why are they paying the primary price of having a less emotionally connected and emotionally available mom
01:23:15 If you simply say hey, it's not up to me it's so simple I mean, I'm not saying it's easy
01:23:23 But
01:23:25 Okay, what's best for my kids
01:23:28 What's best my kids what do they need what do they deserve right
01:23:34 right
01:23:37 Then it's not so complicated, right?
01:23:39 Oh, it's very simple very clear now
01:23:45 To me the clarity is not never see your mom again. I don't know right?
01:23:50 Maybe maybe there's something you can do maybe this but but don't let it and this is why you're calling right?
01:23:55 Just don't let it go on the way it has
01:23:57 With this start stop good bad high low connected disconnected frustrated in out whatever, right?
01:24:04 This plane that never lands and never takes off just keeps
01:24:08 Taxiing along the runway till it crashes
01:24:11 Right just sort it out, man
01:24:15 Right just sort it out, man, and it's not about you because if it's about you see if your mom your mom has control over you
01:24:23 But she doesn't have control over your love for your kids
01:24:25 Which is considerable enormous and for which you know you should deserve eternal respect especially given where you came from as a human being
01:24:33 But your mom can control you but if you're there for something larger than you
01:24:37 Right if you're there for something larger than you
01:24:45 You have strength
01:24:47 Now that strength can be used for bad things like religious extremism or it can be used for good things but
01:24:53 If it's just about you and your mom you're kind of helpless, but if it's like no, it's about what's best for my kids
01:24:59 Hey, I mean, I remember I did a couple of shows with Dave Rubin many years ago and
01:25:04 Then he invited me into his studio and I thought it was gonna be pretty friendly
01:25:07 We'd had pretty friendly chats, but it turned into I mean not quite an ambush
01:25:11 But it was very much like I'm gonna tell every conceivable controversy about you little bit. All right
01:25:15 And look if it was just about me and my comfort and and what was good for me
01:25:22 I wouldn't have taken on some of these weird challenging difficult crazy topics that are actually scientific and fact-based and hugely important to the world. I
01:25:29 Would have had a much more comfortable existence, but it's not about me
01:25:32 And
01:25:37 So, yeah, I'll have those conversations I'll be cross-examined I'll be grilled
01:25:41 People will attempt to trip me up or catch me like Joe Rogan did many years ago
01:25:45 Yeah, cuz not about me
01:25:48 It's not even what's good for the world and abstract it's about what's important for my daughter what's good for my daughter
01:25:57 Hmm doesn't mean the truth will win out or anything like that
01:26:04 But it it's like should I take on this topping? Well, if it's just about me, you know, you know what?
01:26:09 It's like we're smart people. We can talk ourselves in and out of anything
01:26:12 Anything at any time, right?
01:26:14 Yeah, it's really important for me to have a relationship with my mom. We're gonna work it out
01:26:18 Oh, I can't have a relationship with my mom. It's not just a gym 37
01:26:22 She's not gonna check like we can talk ourselves in and out of just about anything
01:26:25 It's a round and round Hamlet style circles within circles, right?
01:26:28 But we take a deep breath we put all that aside and say well that's all well and good
01:26:33 But what's best for my kids?
01:26:35 And because we were raised by boomers we don't have a freaking clue what that looks like, right?
01:26:40 Yeah, yeah, and that's yeah, that's a big part of it
01:26:44 It's just even if you know something you've just never had it modeled to you with well, you've had the opposite model to you
01:26:50 It's not even like you weren't taught French. You were punished for talking French
01:26:53 And it's just it's a big load off your shoulders
01:27:03 It's out of your hands. It's out of your hands
01:27:05 Because it's no longer about well, do I find positive things about my relationship with my mother? Should I do this? Should I do that?
01:27:13 What's bad? No, it's like okay. I'm a better mother or worse mother when I see my mom at the moment in the current situation
01:27:19 Okay. Well, I'm a worse mom if it distracts me if it causes me to be dissociated and disconnected from my kids and so on
01:27:25 It's okay. Well, I can't do that like this current situation can't continue
01:27:28 You
01:27:30 Yes, I'm nodding
01:27:35 Yeah, so that's my that's sort of my big I
01:27:40 Should be more eloquent. That's my big thing man. That's my big thing
01:27:44 But that's that's what I wanted to get across if it's if it's about you. It's gonna be unresolvable literally unresolvable
01:27:53 Unless you know, she sets fire to your house or something, which she's not gonna do right
01:27:57 But you can go back and forth and obviously we've talked about the negatives with your mother
01:28:00 I'm sure there are positives which make it even more complicated and I don't want to deny or disavow those
01:28:05 but
01:28:08 You know, I
01:28:10 Mean this was my decision with my mom
01:28:12 Or maybe I should see her she is old, you know, she's alone
01:28:17 Should I at least
01:28:22 Try and figure out what's going on. Should I get involved? Should I try and I've thought about all these things
01:28:26 and
01:28:27 If it was just me I can talk myself in and out of anything
01:28:30 But
01:28:34 What's best for my daughter? Is it good for my daughter that I go get retraumatized by spending time with my mom?
01:28:39 it's really not even if I
01:28:41 sneak off
01:28:44 Even if I say I'm just going for lunch with a friend
01:28:47 Even if I you know, I'm gonna come back like
01:28:51 reactivated with the trauma
01:28:55 That's not fair to her
01:28:57 Even if there would be some benefit for me in terms of
01:29:01 knowledge and closure and
01:29:04 You know, even if I were to go and see my mom and you know, she was even more unhappy, you know
01:29:10 I mean then that would be that. Oh my gosh, you know because I'm still her son. I mean, I want to make her better
01:29:14 I want to make it better. I want to make it better
01:29:15 I want my mom to be happy. You want everyone to be happy blah blah blah, right?
01:29:18 So even if I could find something positive in it, the question is
01:29:24 Is it good for my daughter for me to be in touch with my mother?
01:29:26 Now the answer for me is pretty clear and this is not it's not it's not a totally simple thing like well 100% zero
01:29:34 I mean, obviously as you said, there's some benefit with your sons being in touch with
01:29:37 your mom but
01:29:40 The question which your sons can answer is if you put it to them and say
01:29:45 Is it worth me being distracted because your mom brings some kid because my mom brings some candies over
01:29:54 Is it worth me being less emotionally available because your mom's good at patty cake or your grandmum's good at patty cake, right?
01:30:01 I think they would say
01:30:04 Mom, we like it when you're happy
01:30:07 We like it
01:30:12 When you have peace of mind we like it when you're not distracted
01:30:16 We like it when you're connected with us and we frankly don't like anything that interferes with that
01:30:22 I
01:30:24 Absolutely and your kids want you to be happy just as you want your mom to be happy and
01:30:34 Here's the other thing if they knew the truth about your grandma and how she'd hurt you and how she got that their grandma and and
01:30:42 How she still hurts you from time to time and frustrates you and swears at you and calls her names
01:30:47 My god, can you imagine
01:30:52 Can
01:30:54 You imagine if one of your kids told you to f-off but told each other when they get older to f-off
01:31:00 Would that be acceptable?
01:31:02 No, your mom did it to you
01:31:04 F you she said I
01:31:07 Was very hurtful, I mean, I know I don't think it's odd, but I just was
01:31:15 So shocked that she said that to me. I was just and that's why I mean, there's a obviously we've already gone into it
01:31:21 A lot of reasons, but I just that's why I I set off I didn't turn around and run away crying
01:31:28 I I confronted her. I was like, I'm done. I am done with this
01:31:31 and that's why I kind of followed her to her car and I older I mean I did yell at her and
01:31:37 Yes, but as we talked about before she said f you and then you ended up sympathizing with her
01:31:46 Huh?
01:31:46 Because she was beaten by her mother
01:31:48 She says which we don't even know was true could just be another move
01:31:52 I don't know. I mean maybe you were there obviously, but I I don't take many people. I take nothing for granted
01:31:57 Nothing at face value. I
01:31:59 Definitely think it's it's true. It's just I mean you already hit it that
01:32:05 She's had years to talk to me about this and you've always learned that her mom was a very
01:32:12 Very vulnerable spot for her. She never talked about her mother just that she was very you know
01:32:17 Emotional that she had passed away
01:32:20 And so I just assumed oh she loved her mother very much and her mother must have been a wonderful woman
01:32:25 And then over the years I not only that I found out
01:32:28 She had revealed to me a couple years ago that she had a half-brother that
01:32:33 Molested her and she went to her mother about it and her mother
01:32:37 ignored it that just nope. Nope that didn't happen took the brother's side for it and
01:32:41 So I found that out years ago and I was very like blown away
01:32:45 So when she told me about this, I was kind of like I'm not really surprised
01:32:49 That she also you know about more mistreatment from the mother that she had a half-brother who molested her. Yes. Yeah, right
01:32:56 So yeah, there's a lot of this to sexual abuse
01:33:00 What's that I assume she's not processed to sexual abuse I
01:33:06 Don't I don't think I mean, I don't think so completely. She know she's admitted to it
01:33:12 But not processed it probably not
01:33:15 well, I just tell you I mean, this is a probably a pretty provocative thing to say but I
01:33:21 Personally would not let
01:33:24 unprocessed victims of sexual abuse around my daughter
01:33:34 Okay, I know when you say it like that, of course I would completely agree with that
01:33:39 Now the other thing I wanted to mention sorry
01:33:42 That was one of the thing that kind of flew by me like a bird and I'm like, oh, yeah
01:33:45 That was a bird back then
01:33:46 okay, so I just wanted to rewind to something because you said my mother's not abusive and then you said but she
01:33:52 Withdraws from me when I've said something that I've has upset her
01:33:56 She won't tell me why and weeks can go by she won't talk to me and you know
01:33:59 Eventually something will be said and so on now
01:34:03 Everybody could have their own definition of abuse. Here's mine as the inflectional in the
01:34:07 intentional
01:34:10 infliction of negative stimuli
01:34:12 Right now you could say well what about going to prison or being fined and so on it's like but that's a legal matter
01:34:20 Right that that's illegal as opposed to abuse, right?
01:34:23 So abuse is when you know something is gonna hurt someone and you do it anyway
01:34:27 Or you do it because you enjoy it or maybe you're sadistic or it's the only way you know how to gain control and to win
01:34:32 Or whatever it is, right? So the intentional infliction
01:34:35 of emotional pain
01:34:38 Is abusive and
01:34:43 so again, I'm happy to have this redefined and and you know, this is
01:34:48 I'm not saying this is a net that catches absolutely everything, but I think it's good place to start and so when I said I
01:34:55 Think you agreed with that and and when I saw him and I said your mother knows that it hurts you
01:34:59 But she does it anyway, that is abusive
01:35:02 That is abusive
01:35:04 Now I
01:35:09 When you define it like that I would have to agree. Yeah
01:35:13 Now, okay, and you know, you can say well
01:35:16 You know
01:35:17 If you're a parent and you you give a stern lecture to your child about something the child did that's negative or whatever
01:35:22 That's inflicting emotional pain and so on but that to me would fall in the self-defense category
01:35:28 In other words if your child does something that inflicts emotional pain
01:35:31 Then you should tell them about that and if that causes emotional pain for them, that's more like a self-defense thing
01:35:36 but
01:35:38 The infliction that like the non-aggression principle applies to emotional pain as well
01:35:42 You don't just go around creating emotional pain in people around you who you care about right now if they commit
01:35:47 If they if they inflict emotional pain upon you and you telling them about that causes them to be upset
01:35:53 That's self-defense. That's not like that's like saying it's it's it's violence to defend yourself using violence, right?
01:35:59 It's not if you're defending yourself. It's a different matter, right?
01:36:01 but the initiation of emotional pain is
01:36:05 Abusive in the same way that the initiation of the use of force is immoral
01:36:12 Now it's
01:36:16 Aesthetically negative behavior to use the terminology from universally preferable behavior. In other words, you can escape it. You can avoid it
01:36:22 It's not cornered
01:36:23 It's not inflicted on you against your will because you choose to put yourself in that situation
01:36:26 Which is different from a guy who jumps you in an alley or something like that, right?
01:36:30 Okay, so when you say my mother's not abusive
01:36:34 But she kind of tortures me emotionally by withdrawing as my only parent and not telling me what what's wrong
01:36:40 That is abusive. I would argue that is abusive now again
01:36:45 The term has fuzzy boundaries and you know
01:36:48 There's some subjectivity to it and so on and I'm sure that your mother would say but she was making me upset
01:36:52 Therefore I was just defending myself by getting out of the situation blah blah blah blah blah, right?
01:36:56 but
01:36:59 she she would say that for sure, but I
01:37:01 think that she would also say that
01:37:04 If
01:37:08 Like she when you were younger, she would say I'm too angry. I need a few minutes a few moments, right? Not three weeks
01:37:15 Right, so of course if you're too angry to speak to somebody reasonably take count to ten go to another room calm down blah blah blah
01:37:22 But you don't just shut the person out week after week after week and then lie, right? Cuz the problem is lying
01:37:27 She's not telling you what you did that was wrong. And then you ask her she's denying that you did anything wrong
01:37:32 So it's the lying that is the big problem, right?
01:37:36 So she might say well my daughter hurt me and blah blah blah blah blah
01:37:38 It's like well, first of all, you're the mother you're supposed to be bigger than that, right?
01:37:41 You're supposed to be bigger because she's still your mom, right?
01:37:44 So if your daughter hurts you
01:37:46 Well, you you raised her
01:37:48 You can't just claim to be a victim because you taught her how to behave you taught her how to act you
01:37:52 Humor to behave you for you can't just say I'm completely dissociated my child. It's just some stranger who hurt me
01:37:57 I mean, come on
01:37:57 I mean
01:37:58 This is that's not taking responsibility to parent and number two
01:38:01 You could tell the truth, right?
01:38:03 If you're if your daughter says if you're angry at your daughter and your daughter says are you angry at me?
01:38:07 You in any relationship you got it now you can say yes, I am
01:38:11 I don't want to talk about it right now, but I will talk about it to you tomorrow or this afternoon at 3 o'clock
01:38:15 Oh, I can't talk about it right now where I'm too upset or I'm in a meeting. I'm busy. I'm right
01:38:19 But you can't just lie and say no, I'm not upset. I'm not mad slam slam slam, right? Come on
01:38:26 Yeah
01:38:30 It was I mean it like you said it still is but it's just there were a few different
01:38:35 Incidences that stuck out where that happened and I mean before I was so enlightened with a lot of a lot of this
01:38:43 I just I was just so devastated
01:38:45 I would just be at home and I'd be so upset like why isn't she talking to me? What did I do wrong?
01:38:50 What's going on? And oh, so it was so devastating and when she did it a few different times
01:38:56 I finally told her mom cannot do this to me again. If you do this to me again
01:39:00 It's I'm gonna kind of do the same thing to you and I'm gonna cut you off and then you know
01:39:06 She attempted to do it just last weekend and I just not stand for it
01:39:09 Yeah
01:39:14 No, but here's the thing and I you know
01:39:16 I don't want to take away the metal what you did was very brave and I applaud you massively for doing it
01:39:21 But you still didn't win because it still became about no
01:39:24 No, you're in there and I see that now. I am the question. The question is always with people. Can you win?
01:39:30 But it's the fundamental question you have in every relationship that you have can can I win when I'm in the right?
01:39:34 Can I can I win?
01:39:37 Can I and I don't mean win like you beat the other person or you grind them down or you make them cry?
01:39:41 I don't mean anything like that. It's like can I can I get my point across? Can I be listened to?
01:39:45 Can I be apologized to if somebody else is in the wrong and can and can that person win with me?
01:39:50 Can the other person if I do something that hurts them if I do something that's neglectful if I don't keep my word if like
01:39:56 It's all all the natural detritus and imperfections of human relations
01:40:00 Can they win with me? Can they say wait a minute? You said you were gonna do this. You didn't do it
01:40:05 That's annoying to me. I can can you say you know what you're absolutely right. That was so rude of me. I'm so sorry
01:40:10 Here's what happened. I will do it right now. I'm so sorry and and please keep on me about this
01:40:14 I will work my very best to not do it again. You're totally right. I
01:40:17 Say that stuff. I won't say I say it all the time, but on a fairly regular basis
01:40:24 I'm be like, oh, you know what? You're absolutely right, right?
01:40:27 and
01:40:29 You know, it's the whole thing I mean it's kind of become a joke right so
01:40:33 my wife says
01:40:36 You're cold. You need a jacket
01:40:39 Now I associate being cold with femininity because I don't have blood circulating around my womb. It actually goes to my extremities, right?
01:40:46 So for me, it's a bit of a manly thing to not need a coat
01:40:49 It's stupid, but I've just you know, we might as well be honest about the silly things that that are in our lives, right?
01:40:54 So for me, it's like you need a coat. Oh, so you're saying I'm not a man
01:40:57 That's like literally that's the equation at some deep primordial ape like part of me, right? So what happens is of course I
01:41:05 Said I don't need a coat and
01:41:09 She says you know what? Let's just put one in the car. Anyway, just in case
01:41:13 And this happened like not even too long ago
01:41:19 So we went someplace I didn't need a coat. Apparently the coat was in the car and what happens
01:41:25 Too cold I'm freezing my tits off frankly
01:41:29 Now
01:41:34 What so what do I say to my wife I say listen can I borrow the car keys and what does she say
01:41:41 She says why oh no, she knows me better than that
01:41:47 What is she exactly? You're cold. You're cold that you you need your jacket
01:41:52 Now so, you know what and I'm like, you know, yeah, I said you're totally right I needed my jacket
01:42:02 I'm so sorry, and it's not like I've got something big to apologize for but it's funny
01:42:07 So she was right. I was wrong. I needed a jacket and I went to the car and
01:42:11 I very much appreciated having the jacket and I said, you know what?
01:42:16 I'm sorry to be so ridiculous about my jacket, you know, I'm like, I'll bring a jacket. I'll do my best, right?
01:42:20 But so she could she can win
01:42:23 She can be right I can be wrong I can apologize I can reform
01:42:28 Can you win with people now? I gotta tell you if somebody pulls a shiv of I'm fine with drug addiction
01:42:35 It's hard to see a scenario in which you're ever gonna win if somebody's willing to go to that extreme
01:42:42 For dominance at the moment if you're mad at her, I mean, did she apologize for saying F you?
01:42:48 She did yes, I want to because there were some of we
01:42:55 You're gonna hate that. I
01:42:58 Apologize to for you know yelling at her and for taking it to an extreme and you know, she did as well
01:43:04 We both know listen you had some things to apologize. Look you had a few things to apologize for
01:43:09 I mean that I'm not gonna you know, if she's six if you're wrong six out of ten and she's wrong ten out of ten
01:43:14 She apologized for the ten and you apologize for the six. I think that's perfectly fine
01:43:18 Yes, because I I did I thought I was yeah, I don't like that. I lost control and I was screaming at her
01:43:25 Yeah, you don't like that behavior in yourself and you don't if your kids were watching blah blah blah, right? Oh god. Yeah
01:43:32 so yeah, you had something to apologize for and I
01:43:38 Think that's perfect. I'm glad that she did apologize. I think that and this is why I said, you know
01:43:42 There's good things there too and all of that, right?
01:43:43 So I I also think it might be important for you to figure out the extent of the molestation
01:43:48 I don't know if you do or don't know and you know
01:43:50 Maybe that's private for her and you but I I would try and figure that out and figure out, you know
01:43:56 because there's so many different levels of molestation and
01:43:59 You know given the way your mom's personality is I'm gonna assume probably worse
01:44:06 It's all terrible, but there's still different levels of hell
01:44:09 But this stuff and I'd certainly try and figure that out because you need to know what's unprocessed and how much there is
01:44:14 Okay, that makes me honest just being honest very anxious Stephen I cuz I I don't I
01:44:23 Almost don't want to get into that with her. I just don't want to know
01:44:28 That makes sense, I'm sure no I get it I get it
01:44:33 I really do I really do and I'm just telling you a suggestion. Obviously, these are my thoughts. I'm just some guy on the Internet
01:44:39 It's your life and your relationship with your mother. So I'm just telling you my thoughts
01:44:43 It's you know, these are all your decisions and please don't make a list of things
01:44:46 I'm telling you to do because that's the last thing that I want, you know, we're just two people talking about
01:44:50 options and possibilities in life
01:44:53 Yes. No, I I appreciate that and it's something
01:44:56 Once we talk about it out loud like this. Yeah, that's something I will definitely consider
01:45:03 Right
01:45:05 Well, so that's
01:45:09 The majority of what I wanted to get across. Is there anything that you wanted to add? I'm sorry again
01:45:12 I know we keep talking about a second person, but these calls are too important to
01:45:15 Each one I want to give full attention to so is there something you wanted to mention or how was the convo for you?
01:45:21 What what's your experience been like of the chat? Oh
01:45:23 My gosh, this is it's been
01:45:29 Excellent
01:45:31 for lack of this has been awesome just to
01:45:33 Hear a lot of things reflected back that I think I needed to hear that deep down I knew
01:45:39 But I just needed
01:45:41 somebody to kind of reflect it back in the right way and
01:45:44 The core of it is what's best for my kids and I
01:45:50 absolutely agree that I
01:45:53 need to figure figure something out about kind of
01:45:57 With with my relationship with her and not having her around as much and or encouraging her to make some different decisions
01:46:04 Which I know I mean, that's all up to her. I can't control that. I can't do that
01:46:09 For her and that's what's so frustrating is. I just want her to do these things and
01:46:14 She won't do them. Oh
01:46:17 well, that may be your desire or that may be a
01:46:23 Carrot that she's holding out for you. In other words, it may be that you really want her to do this that or the other
01:46:29 But it also may be something that she a desire that she evokes in you so that you have hope right?
01:46:35 So because I think what's right at the bottom of the reaction. It's just despair. It's just despair
01:46:41 It's like this is this is after 37 years. This is how we deal with each other. Come on. Yeah
01:46:46 It's just there's real despair down there
01:46:48 I didn't want to say it earlier because I don't want to label things and and you know when people are in a very
01:46:52 In a very vulnerable state that can be impressionable, but I just you know now that we sort of passed that storm
01:46:57 you know what I what I
01:46:59 Felt cuz you know, what do I try and do I try and get into the unconscious of people sounds kind of creepy
01:47:04 I know I tried to get into the unconscious of people and and bring to the surface the voices that are unacceptable in the moment
01:47:10 Right that because that's where usually the real truth is about about the situation and what I got down there was come on after 37 years
01:47:16 My mother's telling me to fuck off. Oh, she might mother saying fuck you to me after 37 years
01:47:22 Oh my god, like where do we go from here? Like what?
01:47:25 What's saveable but salvageable but solvable after 37 years. This is where we are
01:47:31 I think that there's just a real level of despair down there like oh my god. What where do we go from here?
01:47:37 Yeah, I mean it just seemed for so long. We were very tight very close and then
01:47:46 Somewhere in my early to mid-twenties that just started to fall apart and then kept going and going and I didn't understand why and
01:47:54 Any I grew her that's when you outgrew her
01:47:57 Yep. No, that's when you it's when you I grew her and you know
01:48:02 Hope is a very it's a very toxic substance in relationships. The hope is desperately toxic
01:48:06 Hope is really really toxic, you know, listen
01:48:13 Your
01:48:14 Mother was with your father the drug addict. She obviously found it unacceptable that he was a drug addict
01:48:20 But she sure hoped he would change right?
01:48:22 Yes, and
01:48:24 Hope in a relationship is a denial of reality
01:48:29 Because it's saying I just want this person to be fundamentally different
01:48:41 Which is a rejection of who they are
01:48:43 Which is saying I want to be close to someone I'm rejecting. I
01:48:48 Want to be connected to someone I dislike. I
01:48:52 Want to love someone I
01:48:56 strongly disapprove of
01:48:59 That's a paradox. And the way that we cross that paradox is with this weird magical collapsing bridge called hope
01:49:10 And hope is the most addictive substance in dysfunctional relationships by far
01:49:15 You have to accept people for who they are but you don't have to obviously but it's wise to accept people for who they are
01:49:24 The more you want to change people the more you're rejecting them and the more volatile the relationships become
01:49:29 It's not really relationships. It's the hope of a relationship
01:49:33 you know if I say
01:49:37 I'm going to get paid by hoping to have a job
01:49:40 What would people say
01:49:44 That's not gonna work
01:49:48 Hope is not an income and also if you think you're gonna get paid by hoping to have a job
01:49:52 You're never gonna actually have a job because you're gonna you think you're gonna get paid anyway
01:49:56 Hoping to get something
01:49:59 Is not how
01:50:02 You get things it's the opposite of how you get things
01:50:05 Now you can have a desire to get things you can want to get things but hoping
01:50:09 Crossing your fingers trying to pick the lock of somebody else's personality
01:50:13 fundamentally, I
01:50:15 Mean you say that your mom rejects you to some degree when she's upset with you
01:50:18 But you understand the the more you hope for your mom to change the more you're rejecting who she is. She knows that
01:50:23 Why do you think she said F you
01:50:27 Because she feels rejected by you now. I
01:50:31 Think you've got good reasons
01:50:34 but wallpapering over all of this stuff with just hope is
01:50:37 Well, it's what I call
01:50:43 An infinity fantasy or an eternity fantasy
01:50:49 Or an immortality fantasy is probably the closest thing which is like, okay. Well, hey if you have immortality
01:50:56 Yeah, you can spend decades hoping for something because you've got forever to live
01:51:02 But
01:51:04 You know, you're close to halfway through life
01:51:07 And
01:51:11 We don't have forever and
01:51:13 Wasting time hoping
01:51:17 Wrecking ourselves through the opiate of hope
01:51:21 crossing our fingers
01:51:24 Hoping for the best wishing people were different but hanging around them. Anyway, finding their behavior offensive unsettling appalling abusive nasty
01:51:32 unpleasant difficult
01:51:33 but then sticking around it because we're just gonna hope I
01:51:37 Think that may be your like hope it may be your cocaine if you don't mind me putting it very strongly
01:51:43 hmm
01:51:46 Which is a way of trying to achieve something positive without it actually occurring I
01:51:51 Can figure out a change my mom I can make her better
01:51:55 I can get in there route around and rewire things and I can fix things and I can right
01:52:00 That that's kind of addictive
01:52:02 Cuz yeah, and I yep, yep, absolutely
01:52:08 And I'm not putting you with the same category as your dad just it's the really stretchy and I just I don't want you I
01:52:16 Don't want to be pulling one of your mom's things and saying like your dad, you know, whatever
01:52:19 I really it's a very lengthy and stretched out and I have hope to I have hope for the world and I don't even know
01:52:25 If that's I mean, I I may be you know
01:52:28 The real addict talking to a totally minor addict saying you seem to have a problem with hope
01:52:31 I mean, I have this whole thing with hope in the world, which I'll go into one day
01:52:35 Which is it could be completely addictive. I gave up hope on politics and that seems to be pretty healthy
01:52:40 But you know, so I'm just yeah, I don't want you to you know
01:52:43 Come out of this with like my god. He thinks I'm a drug addict like my dad
01:52:45 I just that's you know, I just it's a really really stretchy analogy. I just wanted to point that out
01:52:51 No, I but I understand I where you're going with it no I and I agree
01:52:56 Yeah, what's what's life if we don't want to change people?
01:52:59 What's life if we don't I don't want to change you at all I'm not telling you what to do
01:53:04 I'm not I'm not at all dissatisfied with this conversation
01:53:07 Well, if your mom wants to call and I'm happy to talk to her too
01:53:10 but
01:53:12 No, seriously, if she wants to call in I'm absolutely happy to talk to her
01:53:15 Because then she can tell me all about you and that I can support her
01:53:20 Right, but I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding but
01:53:23 I don't want to change you. I don't want to
01:53:28 I'm just you know
01:53:31 Any more than you wanted you don't want to change a room by turning the light on right?
01:53:35 Nothing fundamentally changes the room. You can just see it. I don't want to change you
01:53:39 I think that there's things that are easier to see from the outside and
01:53:42 You know
01:53:43 That's the other three I'm always humble about this stuff because it's easy for me to see this stuff as I said earlier because I'm
01:53:47 Not you it's not my mom and I can have these fantasy speeches
01:53:50 Which I probably would never have in real life if it was my mom all this kind of stuff, right?
01:53:54 So it's just a little easier for the outside
01:53:56 That's all just as it's easier for people to see stuff about me from the outside and which is why I have a good great
01:54:00 Marriage is so important. But yeah, what is life if you just take that burden off of wanted to change anyone?
01:54:07 Just I remember this early in my marriage just realizing
01:54:10 You know what men and women are different and my wife my wife's gonna do things that are delightfully incomprehensible to
01:54:16 To me and I'm gonna do things that are hopefully delightfully comprehensible to my wife and it just don't change her
01:54:22 Don't try and don't don't say hey, I'm really attracted to a woman. I'm gonna try and turn her into a guy
01:54:26 Yeah, it's not that's not how things work, right?
01:54:29 And and that just I went through this like, you know close to 20. We've been married like 18 years
01:54:33 We've been together 19 years and I'm like, yeah, what if what if nothing needs to change?
01:54:38 I mean occasional tweaks he tweaks here and there blah blah blah, right?
01:54:41 But what if nothing fundamentally like nothing needs to change about her? She's perfect
01:54:45 And
01:54:46 What if that's your attitude in life?
01:54:48 Don't try and change people
01:54:50 Don't have hope
01:54:52 When they tell you who they are
01:54:54 Be quiet and listen and see how you feel
01:54:58 Yeah, that's fine blowing to me and something I I need just to sit with and
01:55:11 Because we have this thing this is the economic argument. Yeah, we have this economic argument that says well you there's no such central planning
01:55:17 We'll never work
01:55:19 Control of industries will never work controlling people's lives totalitarianism control will never work and then when it comes to our own personal relationships
01:55:27 Like I'm gonna rewire you so that you suit my needs better and you suit better behavior better and we like economically and politically
01:55:34 We're like, oh man, this central planning this control. This totalitarianism is terrible. It's never gonna work
01:55:39 But when it comes to our own personal relationships
01:55:41 Sometimes we big brother living crap out of people, right?
01:55:45 I'm gonna control I'm gonna monitor. I'm gonna reward. I'm gonna punish. I'm gonna try and change. I'm gonna have hope
01:55:51 I'm gonna like but we wouldn't ever you know from an economic standpoint. We'd never say that liberation in the political sphere. We love
01:55:57 Accepting
01:55:59 who people are in our personal relationship sometimes is tougher because maybe we
01:56:04 We don't actually like too much who they are and it's that's tough. All right
01:56:08 Well, listen, I'll quit while I'm ahead for once maybe maybe but thank you everyone so much for these fantastic conversations. They
01:56:15 they really do
01:56:18 fuel me and
01:56:19 I really really appreciate
01:56:21 You know some of them of these thoughts
01:56:23 Before some of these thoughts are during and it's the thoughts during that make these conversations so amazing and incredible for me
01:56:28 So thank you so much for the listener. Thank you to James for setting this up as always
01:56:32 Thank you to everyone as I said before who gave me such wonderful birthday wishes. I'll get my daughter such wonderful birthday wishes. We are one
01:56:38 Free domain comm forward slash tonight. Please please help out the show
01:56:42 I really really appreciate that and you get all the goodies there, too and
01:56:45 Have yourself a wonderful wonderful afternoon. I will talk to you soon. Bye
01:56:49 Well, thank you so much for enjoying this latest free domain show on philosophy
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