My Stepmother Made Panty-Soup to Get a Man! Call-In

Name: My Stepmother Made Panty-Soup to Get a Man! Call-In
Uploaded: 2023-12-01T16:54:52+00:00
Duration: 2 h 37 min 29 s
Channel: Stefan Molyneux

00:00:00 Hi Steph, hey, how's it going?

00:00:02 Yeah, not too bad, thank you, how are you I am well I am miles I'm well

00:00:09 So yeah, nice to meet with you

00:00:12 nice to have a chance to chat and I'm certainly happy to hear if you wanted to

00:00:16 Read what you sent if you wanted to just tell me what's going on. I mean, I'm happy either way

00:00:21 Yeah, you too. Um, I

00:00:26 Tweaked what I initially sent a little bit. So I'll read what I've tweaked

00:00:30 If I do start to ramble on please do bring me back like you usually do

00:00:36 But others I will start by saying that I did sense in myself

00:00:41 Initially as well when I sent the question and today as I was getting ready as a part of me that

00:00:49 Is really resisting

00:00:52 And the prevailing thought is you don't air the family's laundry

00:00:56 So I just wanted to say that at the beginning just in case I start to fog

00:01:01 But I know you you've done lots of these are quite good at bringing people back. So I just wanted to give you a heads up

00:01:07 All right, I'm all these right

00:01:09 Okay

00:01:11 so

00:01:13 Said hi Steph just as a recap my question from a couple of Friday shows ago

00:01:19 Was about how I can tackle hyper hyper independence as a woman when it doesn't stem from hatred of men

00:01:26 As I would like to marry and have children that had concerns that this defense mechanism or strategy

00:01:33 Would get in the way. I mentioned that I don't think I hate men despite watching my mother get

00:01:41 Literally kicked out by my father with nothing

00:01:45 Because that is what I literally witnessed not because I have any illusions about the failure of either parents

00:01:52 Which is mostly thanks to you and your show. I

00:01:55 Have no contact with either of my parents now

00:01:59 I'm in therapy for the third and hopefully

00:02:04 Last time over the course of my adult life

00:02:07 because I keep finding myself in repetitious cycles, which often have echoes of the past and

00:02:15 Leave me wondering why or how I miss or ignore certain things

00:02:18 it's

00:02:21 Sorry

00:02:23 It's challenging not to feel deflated at such times because I worry more that

00:02:31 I'll become or end up similar to my mother

00:02:35 The best I've been able to come up with my inner Steph is that I have a fear of ending up

00:02:44 quote-unquote under the thumb of immoral people and having to

00:02:48 self center like I

00:02:51 self-censor, sorry

00:02:53 Like I did through my childhood and much of my adult life simply because I'm not able to provide for myself financially

00:03:00 the solution I thought of

00:03:04 From a relationship or spouse standpoint is to find someone who is virtuous

00:03:10 with integrity loyal, so I won't have to worry about repeating my parents marriage or

00:03:16 Living with people whose morals and values don't align with mine

00:03:20 the purpose of my call is mainly to find out if

00:03:24 There is an underlying hatred of men that I've missed and should focus my attention on and if that isn't the case

00:03:31 Get any advice from real life Steph on how I truly break out of

00:03:37 The hyper self-reliant mindset and recognize more quickly when a negative cycle is repeating itself in my life

00:03:44 So that's what I've kind of trimmed it down to

00:03:50 Right now I do remember in the original message. I appreciate the honesty. I remember in the original message you talked about your

00:03:57 Immigration experience and early cultural experiences. Do you I mean we can pass by those by if you want or is there the reason you took?

00:04:04 those out

00:04:06 No, they're still in I just thought we'd talk about it through prompting. So yeah, thanks for bringing

00:04:12 Well, I mean I don't have to read it. I mean you can just tell me about sort of your

00:04:17 Early experiences, but I think around age 12 or so

00:04:21 Yes, so I was 12 when we moved to where I am I guess my accent is probably a dead giveaway

00:04:29 We moved to live here with my mom from our country of origin, which is in Africa

00:04:36 And that was following the breakdown of my mother's marriage to my father

00:04:41 So I moved here with my two siblings at the time. I've given them

00:04:46 Some fake names, so we'll call them Ben and Jerry if they come up again

00:04:51 Right and tell me a little bit about what happened with your parents marriage or a lot if you like

00:04:59 Sure, so

00:05:03 my memories begin

00:05:05 at the age of seven

00:05:07 my parents both worked so we're working-class family in our country of origin and

00:05:15 They owned a business together selling clothes

00:05:18 my mother traveled around quite a lot doing the procurement of buying the clothes and the merchandise and

00:05:25 my father stayed

00:05:27 Back home to manage the business from that side and he was also in control of the finances

00:05:34 At some point they began fighting my dad would get drunk would go out and get drunk constantly and

00:05:43 He would hit and verbally abuse my mom

00:05:47 So these are things that I witnessed

00:05:49 not her accounts and

00:05:52 There were nights where she would come into our room

00:05:56 Because he wouldn't let her sleep in their room and the next morning I would see

00:06:01 Sorry

00:06:03 Next morning, I would see that she was beaten and bruised

00:06:16 In order to raise me and my two siblings at the time

00:06:22 They hired a live-in nanny slash housemaid and

00:06:27 so in addition to being

00:06:31 basically an alcoholic and

00:06:33 Hitting my mom

00:06:36 My dad was having an affair with the housemate as well

00:06:41 And then

00:06:46 The other memory that I have is of him

00:06:48 one day literally just

00:06:51 Throwing her out and calling my uncles. So my mom's brothers and telling them to come in and pick her up

00:06:59 She she'd just gone and taken refuge in a flat downstairs and he said to them that he didn't want her anymore

00:07:06 And you were around 12 around this time

00:07:09 No, so this was around seven when I was seven. So still in my country of origin

00:07:16 It was at this time when they were preoccupied obviously with the marital strife that

00:07:26 We would often get left to go out and play

00:07:29 with other kids in the neighborhood or go into other neighbors flats and at this time I was

00:07:35 Groomed and sexually abused by one of the neighbors in the flats. Oh gosh. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry

00:07:45 And how long were you molested or sexually abused

00:07:56 I

00:07:58 Think it was a

00:08:00 Couple months, I don't remember exactly I know it was that the entire time that we lived there that they were fighting

00:08:08 So it would have been a couple of months until my father kicked my mother out because then he started to struggle financially

00:08:16 So we had to move

00:08:19 So I think it stopped then I

00:08:25 Don't know how again don't you don't have to say anything you're not comfortable with I know it

00:08:30 It's an uncomfortable topic and I apologize for putting it that way but

00:08:33 How far did the sexual abuse go?

00:08:36 Um

00:08:43 I don't know or remember if there was penetration

00:08:51 You

00:08:53 I just know that now I struggle when I go to hospitals to try and get tests and stuff

00:09:03 So like when I've been invited for the cervical test like perhaps me or stuff like that, right

00:09:11 Yeah, right, right

00:09:14 Just terrible

00:09:16 Just terrible and of course, you know

00:09:18 I mean you were a vulnerable little girl and you needed support and you needed encouragement and you needed help and

00:09:24 Instead you got this jackal this hyena

00:09:27 Praying on the vulnerable. I'm just that's terrible. I'm so sorry

00:09:31 Yeah

00:09:34 Yeah, remember he would

00:09:36 Send my brothers into his house to distract to them. And then yeah, he would

00:09:42 Yeah mess around with me outside

00:09:46 Oh outside

00:09:48 Yeah in the in the block of flats

00:09:51 Yeah, it wasn't like outside where everyone could see but it was in like I

00:09:59 Don't know how to call it like a stairs area stairs bed. I guess he would get my brothers to go in and

00:10:06 Help themselves to his food and stuff. All right

00:10:14 Okay

00:10:16 I'm happy to I have some questions, but I it's not hugely relevant to the time frame

00:10:22 So if you want to keep going, I'm happy to hear

00:10:24 Sure. Yeah

00:10:27 Because I didn't know

00:10:31 Exactly what was happening at the time. I didn't realize that I was sexually abused until I was about 11

00:10:37 I was in the sex ed class

00:10:39 at school in our country of origin and that's when I

00:10:43 Put two and two together about what I had what had happened to me

00:10:47 But I felt too ashamed to say anything to anyone so I kept it to myself for a very very long time and

00:10:55 The shame is to do with why you were picked is the shame to do with oh

00:11:02 I should have fought back or what was the shame to do with?

00:11:04 Because I never fought back

00:11:11 Because I don't recall

00:11:14 Resisting

00:11:18 And when you sort of look back if you say to yourself, okay, I'm gonna give myself advice about what to do what would you

00:11:28 Say you should have done or what? What could you have done?

00:11:31 Yeah scream I

00:11:39 Didn't know that he was doing anything wrong. I didn't no one had ever spoken to me about any of that

00:11:46 All right, so let's say you had yelled and screamed

00:11:51 What do you think would how do you think it would have played out if you had done that as a kid?

00:11:56 Thanks some people might have come out but I don't know how they would have reacted

00:12:07 I

00:12:09 I'm not sure

00:12:16 Well, what would be the best case scenario for you that would have come out of this

00:12:23 Wretched pedophiles assault. I mean, let's say you had yelled and screamed. What's

00:12:28 The good that you would anticipate or the best that you could anticipate coming out of that

00:12:34 You

00:12:36 That you'd get arrested I

00:12:41 Think where I'm from though, they probably would have beaten him up

00:12:47 Okay, so they they would have beaten him up and then what would have happened

00:12:53 Oh God

00:13:02 I would have got

00:13:04 I would have got shamed by my family because I

00:13:11 Brought shame on them it would have been

00:13:16 Something necessarily outright like that it would have been you should have told us what was happening

00:13:24 Well, but let's say I mean, I just want to play out the ideal scenario here as a way of sort of confronting this shame

00:13:31 So let's say the very first time this creep touched you inappropriately or something like that the very first time you screamed blue murder and

00:13:39 People came running and and so on right?

00:13:42 Right

00:13:45 So your parents couldn't have said well you can't hold us right because you would do it the first time, right?

00:13:50 Let's again just I want to sort of understand you're thinking about this

00:13:53 And and so let's say that people came. Of course, the man would lie and and say

00:13:59 No, oh my gosh. I mean, I'd never do something like that. She must it must be someone else

00:14:03 She she you know, I just gave her a hug or whatever he would say, right?

00:14:07 but let's say that that he wasn't believed and then

00:14:10 we'll go with the we can try the legal route in a sec, but but

00:14:13 let's say that he gets beaten up and

00:14:17 All of that right and I assume that the beating would be particularly vicious, right?

00:14:21 So then what would happen? What would he do then?

00:14:25 I

00:14:27 Never thought about this, but yeah, you might retaliate against me or my family without a doubt

00:14:40 Without a doubt

00:14:43 He might sue your parents

00:14:46 For your falsehoods calling his court causing people to assault him

00:14:52 He might sue and say well, it must be the father or an uncle or a brother, but it wasn't me and

00:14:58 You know your your daughter lied about me. You're you're legally and morally responsible. I got beaten up. Here's my hospital bills

00:15:05 Here's my pain and trauma and it won a million dollars

00:15:07 or he could have just assaulted one of your brothers or

00:15:12 Something or even worse, right?

00:15:14 Yeah

00:15:17 And so and you didn't know you were gonna move of course and so this guy would have been down the hallway

00:15:24 plotting his revenge

00:15:26 For how long right of course as a creep he probably knows other creeps bunch of criminals people for hire

00:15:33 like who knows right, but

00:15:35 It would have put you and your your manager. I'm sorry. I just occasionally I get this blast back of my own voice

00:15:42 But anyway, it doesn't matter. So yeah, he would have he would have been plotting revenge

00:15:47 against you and

00:15:49 Your family and who knows right? I mean he could have cut the brakes on your parents

00:15:53 Hot car, I mean it could have poisoned something

00:15:58 Who knows right? But it would have been I think pretty much a state of perpetual terror waiting for the blowback if that makes sense

00:16:04 Yes

00:16:06 And who would your parents have blamed for all of this? Right? So let's say you screamed right away and

00:16:12 This guy gets beaten up

00:16:17 And then he plots his revenge

00:16:19 Or bad things start to happen and there's suspicion, but there's no proof

00:16:23 Your parents would have blamed who for all of the danger and fear and stress in their lives

00:16:29 It would have blamed me

00:16:33 Right, right

00:16:35 right, and

00:16:38 So how would I mean I'm trying to sort of understand the what would have happened?

00:16:44 Right, because because if you feel shame and I should have done something, okay, listen, that's that's fine

00:16:49 I mean, it's good to have that kind of question. What what should I have done?

00:16:53 But I'll tell you something about these kinds of guys

00:17:00 They have an uncanny ability

00:17:05 to find the right

00:17:08 victims I

00:17:11 Don't know. I have no idea how they do it, of course

00:17:14 But I mean if you think of the risk, right you think of a risk that some guy is taking right?

00:17:19 He's he's groping at you in the stairwell in a place where he could get beaten half to death

00:17:25 Or sent to prison and we all know what happens to pedophiles in prison, right? They tend not to have a very

00:17:31 positive or long prison sentence

00:17:34 So this guy's risking serious injury or death so he's got to be really certain right

00:17:41 that

00:17:43 You won't scream that you have no support system that you won't go for help he has to know that

00:17:49 Almost for absolute certain if that makes sense

00:17:52 Yeah, it does

00:17:56 so

00:17:58 It wasn't it wasn't for you that you were assaulted it was for a

00:18:04 An accurate reading of the complete lack of support system and in fact an attack system

00:18:10 That if you had been vulnerable and gone for help

00:18:13 that

00:18:16 He knew that that was not a possibility for you

00:18:18 Yeah, and

00:18:23 Parents who are struggling who are fighting who are drinking who are overwhelmed who are in financial trouble and so on

00:18:29 You bring another problem to them. And what do they do?

00:18:36 They lash out at you instead yeah, of course, I mean, what are they gonna do take on some dangerous

00:18:41 Child molester. No, we're gonna attack the child. They're gonna whoever's under their control

00:18:46 So then instead of having one problem you would have ten problems and

00:18:53 I don't mean to diminish by saying what happened to you was a problem instead of having one nightmare. You'd have ten nightmares

00:19:00 Yeah

00:19:05 Now and

00:19:07 if and of course, let's say that

00:19:09 one of your brothers was put in the hospital by one of these guys or one of his friends or one of his creepy pals or

00:19:15 whatever, right and

00:19:17 Your parents had the suspicion who would they blame would they blame this guy?

00:19:21 Or who would they blame for the injuries to your brother?

00:19:24 No, they would blame me because I'm the oldest I should have known better

00:19:29 Well, you should have you know, it would somehow be your fault and and then you'd have that guilt and and and all of that

00:19:37 right

00:19:38 Yeah

00:19:40 So, let's look at the other route right so let's say the other route is that

00:19:45 This happens and you run down to the police station and or whatever it is you you

00:19:52 You go and take the legal route, right?

00:19:57 Right

00:19:59 well, then there's a trial and

00:20:01 You have to testify as a child I assume I don't know how it works in every country, of course

00:20:07 And

00:20:12 Let's say that

00:20:14 There was proof you have injuries or their semen or something like that

00:20:18 you have proof and with your testimony and all of that after a

00:20:24 I don't know six to twelve month legal thing. The guy goes to jail

00:20:28 Well, he's got six to twelve months and a bunch of friends who are probably as creepy

00:20:34 If not, even creepier and more dangerous than he is

00:20:36 To do whatever, right?

00:20:39 Yeah, and even if he's within prison he's gonna have his creepy friends and associates

00:20:46 Who can come and injure your family or attack you or something like that, right

00:20:53 Yeah

00:20:55 And of course your parents would I

00:21:00 Assume have to hire a lawyer to get legal advice on your testimony and this that and the other right and they'd have to put

00:21:06 a lot of time effort energy and resources and of course

00:21:08 This would be written up in the local newspapers or it would just go through the internet and everybody would know what would happened and what?

00:21:14 would happen to you at school knowing that this was your experience if this is what you were doing and

00:21:20 How would your parents have handled the legal bills and the time and and the risk

00:21:25 Associated with all of this kind of legal stuff again. I'm not trying to paint too negative a picture. I'm just

00:21:30 trying to play out these scenarios in your mind because I'm

00:21:34 curious about the the shame and shame is so often based on magical thinking and

00:21:39 Listen, this is as true for me as it is for you as it is for everyone

00:21:44 I feel ashamed because and there's some weird magical superhero scenario wherein

00:21:49 Justice is enacted and vengeance is perfect and there's never any blowback and all of that, right?

00:21:55 Yeah, and

00:21:59 I mean, I don't know by the by it's one of the things I loved about the Hobbit which I read when I was a kid

00:22:04 Which is you know, they they kill the dragon

00:22:07 They get the treasure and then the problems all start because everyone's fighting over the treasure, right?

00:22:11 Because normally it's like aha. We've sloaned the drewies. We see the dragon. We have all the treasure

00:22:15 That's the end of the story, but he went further and said, okay

00:22:19 And now you've gotten rid of the dragon now

00:22:21 everybody wants a piece of the treasure and there's going to be a fight over that like

00:22:24 Problem like there's not there's no end solution to a lot of these things. There's just a balancing of probabilities of problems and

00:22:34 so and

00:22:36 And of course the other thing too is that let's say this guy went to prison for a couple years then he'd come out, right?

00:22:41 Yeah

00:22:47 If we were still living there then yeah, we'd get attacked

00:22:52 Look, it could be again this there's lots of subtle ways that people can try to mess up your life, right?

00:22:57 That a very hard to trace and and all of that right and again as a kid, you know

00:23:03 Are you necessarily saying what we just get video surveillance? All right, so I'm trying to sort of figure out

00:23:09 Is their magical thinking that there was a great solution or a positive solution or a helpful solution?

00:23:17 To

00:23:18 This problem and this is why in in these areas, right? I mean, it's it's a mess, right?

00:23:23 I mean, obviously you can't you can't just take a child at face value and throw people in jail based upon a child's say so because

00:23:29 children

00:23:31 Can displace they can misinterpret they can you know, their brains are very young

00:23:36 Of course what sort of by definition so you can't just say well the child said so we're throwing him in prison

00:23:40 you do need some sort of evidence some sort of proof which is hard to come by and

00:23:46 The

00:23:48 Issue of blowback

00:23:49 I mean

00:23:49 I remember when I was

00:23:51 trapped in in the woods with a friend of mine when I was about 12 and these older guys who were like

00:23:56 I don't know 17 or 18 were

00:23:58 Threatening us and hitting us and forcing us to build them fires and you know, it wasn't anything that got too out of hand

00:24:03 but of course I thought

00:24:05 you know I could go to the cops and my friend and I could go to the cops and we could talk about these guys and

00:24:10 the assault and the I

00:24:11 Don't know unlawful restraint or I don't know whatever it would be right?

00:24:15 But then I played that out of my head and I think this may have happened to you at an unconscious level

00:24:20 But you just sort of play that out in your head. Okay, so what's gonna happen? Well, these guys go to my school

00:24:25 I still have to go to school. Let's say that the cops sit them down. Are they gonna get charged?

00:24:31 Are they gonna go through the whole process? Well that whole process is gonna take

00:24:34 months at least and

00:24:37 That whole time, you know

00:24:40 They could

00:24:44 And I remember the guy I think one of the guy the older guy was saying if you run to the cops, you know

00:24:49 They'll just give us a talking to we'll find you at school

00:24:52 Right, so was there some big magical solution well, I wait I don't know a hundred pounds they were 200 pounds, right?

00:25:03 I was 12. They were 17 or 18, which is about as big a difference as you can get

00:25:07 in

00:25:08 That age range. There was really no chance to fight back

00:25:13 and

00:25:15 Obviously, they've been able to do this kind of sand this the other thing too

00:25:17 Obviously, they've been able to do this kind of stuff for years before they knew the situation way better than I did and I'm sorry

00:25:23 I'm not trying to make this about me at all. I just really want to sort of point out that the shame stuff is

00:25:27 False. I mean, I don't get overly technical, but it's it's absolutely false

00:25:33 So I'm like, okay, these guys have been violent bullies and they you know, obviously picked on younger kids

00:25:38 So they knew what they were doing and I didn't

00:25:41 Right, they knew what they were doing because they've been doing this for years assaulting kids entertaining kids or beating up kids or whatever

00:25:47 They've been doing it for years and

00:25:49 This was the first time anything like this had ever happened to me, you know violence that outside the family home

00:25:55 And I'm like, ooh, you know, they've got years and years of experience. This is my first time

00:26:00 You know, it's like all the people who were like, well, I'm just gonna outsmart the cops

00:26:05 It's like really cops have been doing this for 20 years in the interview situation. They're trained their experience

00:26:11 They know the law you don't you're not trained. You have no experience. I

00:26:14 am a big one for deferring to experience and

00:26:17 If this guy preyed upon you it's because he knew

00:26:22 That you had no good options. And this is why when it comes to this kind of childhood sexual assault. I

00:26:29 Mean the key is of course prevention and the best way to have this kind of prevention is to have a good relationship between

00:26:36 The children and the parents and that way he'll go pick on someone else or you know

00:26:40 Hopefully if everyone has good relationships with parents, he won't have anyone to pick on at all

00:26:44 But as far as the shame goes, I just I want to take solid aim at this shame

00:26:51 Because shame is 99 times out of 100 if you certainly if you're a victim shame is just magical thinking

00:26:58 But there was some golden scenario that you could have pursued that would have made all the problems go away and fixed everything and

00:27:05 The fact that you didn't is some negative thing about you and it's like no no

00:27:09 No, there were the good options here by the time you're in this guy's sights. It's because there are no good options at all

00:27:16 There are no good options. There was nothing that you could do

00:27:21 that wasn't a

00:27:24 Terrible thing that was probably gonna make everything worse

00:27:27 Yeah, you were gonna get blamed my friend

00:27:34 You were gonna get blamed you were gonna get shamed you were gonna get attacked and

00:27:37 Then you were gonna get teased at school and marked

00:27:41 And your parents would have blamed you for all of the fallout that happens with this

00:27:49 Prevention is

00:27:54 Everything in these kinds of situations. So again, I'm happy to hear maybe there's a scenario

00:27:59 in which again, you don't have to get into any details about Africa, but of course in in most cultures and

00:28:06 countries in Africa a childhood sexual abuse is like

00:28:10 Yeah, so

00:28:13 Sorry, it's like what they say about a girl in India that if she

00:28:19 Gets to the age of 10 with her hymen intact clearly doesn't have any male relatives. Sorry. Go ahead

00:28:25 Um, I was

00:28:27 19 when I told my mother

00:28:30 What had happened we were

00:28:32 where we are now in this country and

00:28:36 she basically had that reaction because I

00:28:39 told her what had happened off the back of

00:28:43 quitting university and

00:28:46 She basically said that's something that happens to everyone. It's not a reason to quit university. It's not a big deal

00:28:54 Right. Yeah. Yeah, so the Richard Dawkins thing now, you don't have to answer anything, of course

00:29:00 But as far as ethnicity goes, are you a white from South Africa? Are you black from some other country?

00:29:06 I'm just because I'm trying to look at sort of the cultural references and again

00:29:10 You don't have to answer anything. You don't want to but I'm wouldn't be minorly

00:29:13 No, I'm comfortable answering that I'm black from another African country. Got it. Okay

00:29:20 Yeah, and the reason I'm saying that is again in the black culture there is

00:29:23 Unfortunately, I mean even in I mean it's absolutely tragic like even in America half of black half of black girls say that by the time

00:29:30 They're 18. They were raped as children by a black male in the facility. It's just

00:29:35 it's awful and

00:29:38 it's chronic and I just I'm incredibly sorry for the

00:29:42 Foot with you for the events, but what I don't want you to do

00:29:48 is

00:29:50 To think that this defines you or reflects upon you

00:29:54 in any way

00:29:57 You were a helpless victim

00:29:59 Unprotected there were no good solutions

00:30:02 It does not define you it does not reflect upon you

00:30:08 It's not some tattoo on your forehead or some scar burned into your flesh that everyone sees forever. You were preyed upon

00:30:16 Because you were unprotected

00:30:20 And of course when you told your mother when you were 19

00:30:23 You got the answer. So if you'd gone to her the first time this happened, it said mom this

00:30:27 This guy did this terrible thing, you know what she would have said now, right?

00:30:31 Yeah

00:30:34 She would have said a deal it's not worth fighting over, you know, obviously try and stay away from him

00:30:40 But yeah, it happens to everyone, right?

00:30:42 Yeah, and

00:30:46 Come on how how an earth is your mother?

00:30:50 You're welcome. How on earth was your mother?

00:30:52 Gonna protect you from a dangerous guy

00:30:55 How on earth was your mother going to protect you from a dangerous guy? She married your father

00:31:04 Yeah, what's she gonna here's how to have boundaries of dangerous guy here's how to deal with dangerous guys

00:31:11 Here's how to make sure dangerous guys don't take over your life

00:31:13 Here's how to protect yourself from dangerous guys and you knew that I mean deep down right you would know that you're an intelligent

00:31:19 Young woman right you would have known that deep down like how on earth

00:31:22 is

00:31:25 My mother are going to protect me from any kind of dangerous guy

00:31:29 I mean she literally dated got engaged to got married had kids with a very dangerous guy

00:31:37 Yeah

00:31:44 No, thank you, I've been to therapy twice and this is the third time I'm in therapy and no one's been able to help me

00:31:52 Unburden myself of that. So thank you so much. I

00:31:56 mean, this is the really

00:31:59 One of the most tragic things about this kind of childhood my friend is that?

00:32:02 You did the best you could you you took the best option available and

00:32:12 That's just awful

00:32:14 but I hope that that helps and

00:32:17 Listen your your soul your your silver perfect adamantine titanium, whatever you want to call it your soul

00:32:25 Your essence is beyond the reach of evildoers

00:32:28 Don't let them take you over. Don't let them possess you

00:32:32 Don't let them stamp you don't let them define you ever ever

00:32:40 They're just shitty people doing god-awful evil things to innocent children

00:32:45 But you don't let evildoers define who you are

00:32:53 You take pride in surviving

00:32:59 You hate that it happened

00:33:02 You recognize it as evil and you recognize yourself as somebody who had to help you navigate?

00:33:09 through a whole series of absolutely shitty choices and

00:33:12 There were no good choices

00:33:15 you survived I

00:33:17 Think of it myself. I don't mean to use an overly African analysis here

00:33:21 I'm not trying to pander but I think of like, okay

00:33:24 So I think of it with regards to myself and maybe this is helpful you too. Okay

00:33:28 Like I was just a wounded baby zebra rhymes a wounded baby zebra

00:33:31 And I got attacked by a lion, right?

00:33:37 Right, does that mean that I'm somehow a failure as a zebra or corrupted as a zebra or I am I

00:33:44 Have to hate myself now or I should have done better. I shouldn't have been over near that patch

00:33:49 I shouldn't have gone to that pond to get a drink because that's the Lions. No. Oh, I'm so stupid

00:33:55 I can't believe I let that happen. It's just a predator-prey relationship. It doesn't define

00:34:01 Yeah

00:34:06 You you survived

00:34:10 I

00:34:15 Mean you outran a lion in a way

00:34:17 Holy crap

00:34:20 Medal of Honor time, isn't it? Not shame shame

00:34:23 The shame is in the evildoers and those who fail to protect you not you

00:34:34 Yeah

00:34:36 But you think there's something wrong with you

00:34:40 Because you were targeted. Nope. Nothing wrong with you. Everything was in wrong in those who was supposed to protect you

00:34:47 right, you know that the mother zebra never lets the baby zebra go out on its own right and always

00:34:52 keeps herself only they keep the baby zebras in the center of the herd and stuff like that, so if

00:34:58 The mother zebra is negligent and the baby zebra is isolated for whatever reason

00:35:04 Whose fault is it if the baby zebra gets attacked?

00:35:06 It's the parents yeah, it's the tribes

00:35:12 It's the herds the whole the whole

00:35:15 purpose of the herd is to protect the baby zebras and

00:35:17 to keep the hooves of the adults between the baby zebras and the predators and

00:35:22 The baby zebra doesn't even know that there are predators

00:35:30 The way the baby zebra is supposed to discover predators is they see the parents fighting the predators

00:35:36 running like they kick like crazy like the

00:35:39 Lions a very big risk for a lion to attack a zebra because like one flying hoof it breaks the lion's jaw and then the lion

00:35:44 Dies of starvation right can't hunt can't

00:35:47 Chew can't swallow

00:35:50 So the baby zebra is not supposed to learn about predators

00:35:56 By getting its ass chewed on the baby zebra supposed to learn about predators

00:35:59 By running surrounded by the adults who are protecting her

00:36:05 so unfortunately you were left out in the cold you were isolated your

00:36:11 parent zebras were fighting and drunken screaming and beating and all of that and yeah, the predator was like, oh

00:36:19 Here's an unattended zebra

00:36:21 fantastic

00:36:23 But for the zebra to blame itself again, I don't mean to overly milk the analogy

00:36:28 But my gosh for the baby zebra to sit there for the rest of its life and say oh my god. I'm so ashamed

00:36:33 What are you supposed to do at that age against a predator five times your size

00:36:42 What's the baby zebra supposed to do

00:36:46 Yeah, listen, you got bitten I get that but you got out you got away you survived

00:36:53 She look upon that with pride and be angry at the parents and the community and the society

00:36:58 That failed to protect you

00:37:02 Yeah

00:37:07 It's their shame you understand it's their shame. Yes. There's no shame to the baby zebra

00:37:13 There's no shame to the kids who are victims. The shame is entirely upon the society as a whole

00:37:19 You

00:37:21 And all the people who came before, you know, most pedophiles have hundreds of victims and

00:37:30 Society but what's happening? What's what are they doing about it? Oh

00:37:35 It's illegal but what it's like 2% ever get convicted. Yeah

00:37:41 Yeah, it's not a priority

00:37:45 Just

00:37:47 So I just I

00:37:52 Don't want you to

00:37:55 Be defined by being unprotected

00:37:59 You had no capacity to handle this situation and

00:38:05 I'm absolutely I'm personally entirely positive and I'm I my positivity doesn't mean that much obviously, but I'm just telling you I am personally positive

00:38:15 That you I mean you were an intelligent kid as well as an intelligent young woman you evaluated your options and

00:38:23 You very sadly took the best choice available

00:38:27 I'm sure you tried to avoid the guy. I'm sure you tried to stay with other kids. I'm sure you tried not

00:38:33 You only had certain control over that

00:38:36 But telling violent parents that you're being preyed upon

00:38:44 I'm gonna run to some other lions to protect me from a lion. I don't see how that's gonna work

00:38:51 Yeah

00:38:57 I appreciate that sir. Thank you so much. I think

00:39:04 I've already got so much from the call

00:39:07 fine look

00:39:11 The only effect that this guy has

00:39:14 On your mind is your perspective on the situation

00:39:21 Right, he's decades in the past. He's probably dead now God. I hope so. I hope it was painful

00:39:27 But the only effect

00:39:33 That he has on your mind this physiological stuff like when you get the pap smears and so on this physiological stuff the body remembers

00:39:40 and so on

00:39:42 But the only effect he has on your sense of self is your perspective on it

00:39:46 And if your perspective is how I should have done something

00:39:49 Well, you did do something you made a choice and when you go back and review like

00:39:57 I'm

00:40:00 Half a decade older than when this happened to you as a kid and I'm not the dumbest

00:40:06 Guy on the planet and I can't think of anything better you could have done

00:40:10 Yeah

00:40:16 You actually took the least shame route possible

00:40:22 because again if you'd done and he'd retaliated against your family or you or

00:40:27 Something like that then you would have felt even worse even more shame

00:40:31 Not only is there the shame of being abused but then what the abuser or one of his creepy friends did to my family my brother

00:40:37 my mother my father

00:40:39 Right. I mean these are the kind of people honestly like they'll set fire to the apartment building and

00:40:44 Then you sit there wondering. Oh my gosh eight people roasted to death and was that me and oh gosh, you know

00:40:51 And and that's just a hole with no bottom then there, right?

00:40:53 Yeah

00:40:58 And

00:41:00 A guy who's a child molester who's facing prison will absolutely

00:41:06 Go to murder

00:41:08 Right

00:41:12 Yeah, because he's facing probably getting murdered in prison, right

00:41:18 Yeah, it's got little to lose. Yeah, he's got little to lose and

00:41:24 If whoops an accident happens to the kid who's the only witness who's the only testifier right? Whoops something happens to that kid

00:41:31 An evil adult is far more far better versed at doing evil than a little kid is at fighting it

00:41:44 I mean, it's like it's like going up against a tennis pro when it's your first time holding the racket and saying I'm so ashamed I

00:41:53 lost

00:41:55 You got to drop that weight you got to drop that load you don't let the evil doer

00:42:08 Define you

00:42:12 Or what is it damaged goods? Is that the phrase?

00:42:15 Yeah that he damaged you in some permanent

00:42:19 way

00:42:23 No

00:42:25 You were in a terrible situation

00:42:29 Caused entirely by your family your environment the culture of our legal system

00:42:35 and

00:42:37 This guy obviously had gone through probably a hundred victims before you

00:42:40 None of which had resulted in him

00:42:43 Going to prison or being beaten up or being what killed or something like that, right?

00:42:50 So he's got he's done this a hundred times before and he's an adult and you're a little kid. That's the first time this happening

00:42:56 My gosh

00:42:58 How could you how could you win? He knows he knows who to choose

00:43:01 He wasn't choosing you as an individual because oh, why did he target me? What what did I do?

00:43:08 And no, no, he didn't target you. He targeted the absence of your parents

00:43:16 He didn't target you he targeted that you were unprotected that's like the baby zebra who's all alone

00:43:21 Looks up way with where's the where's the herd guy and then it gets jumped on by the lions

00:43:27 It's like oh the lion shows me there's something wrong with me

00:43:29 No, the giant that the lion shows the absence of the herd

00:43:34 the absence of the protectors

00:43:37 Didn't see doesn't have anything. It's not personal to you. Oh, I hate that baby zebra man that I'm gonna wait till that baby

00:43:43 No, it's like oh, there's a baby zebra with no parents around right?

00:43:48 It's not personal to you

00:43:51 I mean, they'll maybe say or maybe you think whatever like my mom didn't hit me because she didn't like me

00:43:59 Wasn't person. Do you think that if she had some other kids she'd have been a great mom. No

00:44:03 It's anybody with a pulse of the vicinity who can't get away

00:44:10 Yeah

00:44:12 So I'm sorry to be spending so long in this. Hopefully it's helpful, but I just really really want you to

00:44:16 Know grind this deep into the your heart of hearts. Oh, yeah, it's I think you might have just saved me

00:44:23 I'm still obviously gonna go to therapy keep going to therapy, but I think you might have saved me some sessions

00:44:29 Good good. Okay, so thank you so much. I don't want to overly pause on on your kidhood. But yeah, I mean

00:44:37 That that's really it's really shitty that you

00:44:39 That the herd left you alone and in the company of predators and and so on but

00:44:46 It wasn't personal to you and it sure as hell does not

00:44:49 Define you at all other than as a heroic survivor

00:44:55 Yeah, I

00:44:59 mean if you get separated in a war from your parents and you make it through enemy lines and and so on and you know,

00:45:05 maybe you

00:45:06 Fall and scrape your knee or bang your elbow or get a terrible bruise on your head or something like that

00:45:11 You wouldn't sit there and say oh, I'm so ashamed

00:45:14 No you you made it through enemy lines and came out in one piece

00:45:21 You didn't get killed by the pedophile

00:45:24 You didn't end up in some incredibly dangerous situation of infinite blowback. You chose probably the path of

00:45:31 minimum

00:45:34 shame

00:45:37 Yeah

00:45:39 All who are unprotected as children get preyed on all who are unprotected as children get preyed on

00:45:45 Those guys said the woods when I was 12

00:45:50 Do you think it's an accident that both myself and my friend had no fathers

00:45:57 that we were both the children of single mothers and

00:46:03 While I was not an only child. My brother was gone for years at this point in my life

00:46:07 Do you think that those?

00:46:10 young men in the forest

00:46:14 Do you think they thought for a moment we had protectors that we had older males who would fight for us

00:46:23 No, because then they wouldn't have approached you yeah

00:46:28 Oh, they would have you know, they would have the body language that this that the other right?

00:46:32 Yeah

00:46:35 The fear the nervousness in her eyes the uncertainty the tentativeness the whatever right? They knew they knew exactly

00:46:41 Ah, here's two. Here's two little boys

00:46:43 without any protectors

00:46:47 And you know you you go to moms and say I was bullied and they just freak out right and

00:46:53 Use don't really do much useful stuff as a whole

00:46:58 So yeah, yeah, it wasn't personal to me

00:47:00 The reason that I was bullied in on that day was because

00:47:06 My father left

00:47:09 We can't do much from Africa. Hey, my father was in Africa at that time. Isn't that a kind of weird coincidence, right?

00:47:15 Yeah, so yeah, it wasn't personal that oh, there's something wrong with these kids. There's something wrong with me

00:47:21 Why did they pick me? Well, they picked me and my friend because we were effectively single sons of single mothers

00:47:26 So no protection. All right. Oh

00:47:28 But I should have and I should have it's like Nana now

00:47:32 If there was any possibility of me doing anything better

00:47:37 I wouldn't have been targeted if there was any possibility of you doing anything better. You wouldn't have been targeted

00:47:42 It's on your family not on you

00:47:45 Yes

00:47:50 All right

00:47:53 So hopefully that helps a little I just really wanted to make sure that the shame stuff is like be gone shame

00:47:58 We need that. We need some sort of ritual some sort of burning thing

00:48:01 Something yeah, I think it's what I feel much lighter now and much less resistance actually

00:48:09 Good well, you know, it's funny because shame is kind of like a fungus and look there are times when shame is appropriate

00:48:19 Have we done something wrong in it, but it certainly shouldn't be long-lasting because for me if I feel the shame to something

00:48:24 Okay, I'll either go and apologize or I'll just let it go

00:48:27 I don't know. I just say oh let it go like it's easy

00:48:29 But if you leave shame unattended like shame is there to make you do something. I'm ashamed of what I did

00:48:35 So I'm gonna go and apologize, right?

00:48:38 and

00:48:40 If I go and apologize then I have to okay well the shame did what

00:48:46 I'm supposed to do so you got a mess, but if there's nothing I can do about it and this of course

00:48:50 There's nothing you can do about what happened to you decades ago

00:48:52 Then shame it can easily become this kind of self-perpetuating fungus like sort of black mold in the walls and it's like, okay

00:49:00 This is just like I have nothing I can do right. It's nothing I can do. Yeah, and shame needs to be

00:49:05 Evicted if it can't be acted upon it just becomes toxic. So, okay. All right. So

00:49:12 Did you want to talk about how things went for you as a teenager? I know we kind of skipped from early to but I guess

00:49:19 10 to 12 to you mentioned at 19 you talked to your mother, but you want to talk about your teenage years at all

00:49:25 Yeah, so as I said we lived with my dad and stepmother often my mother was kicked out

00:49:33 She got sent abroad by her family and we reunited with her when I was 12

00:49:38 And because I got into this

00:49:41 pseudo-mother type relationship

00:49:43 Living with our stepmother because she was pretty much a stereotypical stepmother. She was violently violent and physically

00:49:52 Sorry, she was emotionally and physically abusive

00:49:55 And so I always wanted to come and live with my mother and that dream came true, but my bubble burst as soon as

00:50:05 You know, I got to I think I instinctually just knew oh, no

00:50:11 She's a single mother in a foreign country with no support system

00:50:15 So I'm not going to get to return to being a child again

00:50:21 I'm just forever going to be a pseudo mother with all these responsibilities and oh dear. Oh

00:50:28 dear

00:50:30 I'm afraid the

00:50:33 The mother halo just got unpacked and I just have to put on my sunglasses and squint

00:50:37 Yeah, I came to my mother who was a noble struggling single mother and she did bad things

00:50:44 But she had no support system and she was vulnerable and and it was in a new country and trying to adapt it, right?

00:50:51 Oh my gosh, did the excuses come out when mom came around?

00:50:54 Yeah

00:50:59 Yeah, I made and I viewed her as a victim for a very very long time

00:51:04 Well, you portray that way in this conversation and I just wanted to point that out

00:51:09 Maybe if you've moved past that but that's how you presented her

00:51:12 Yeah, yeah

00:51:15 All right. So was that the requirement to be in your mother's shoes that you just had to portray her as a victim?

00:51:25 Yeah, she that's what she wanted and we fought a lot over my entire teenage years

00:51:32 It was the main reason I couldn't wait to leave home as soon as I could when I was 18

00:51:36 And what was her?

00:51:39 Like if you can sort of I don't get a strong sense of your mother yet. So would you?

00:51:45 Just pretend like I was on the phone with her or and she was she was telling me her tale of woe and victimhood

00:51:50 What would she say?

00:51:53 Yeah, so your father

00:51:55 Broke our vows. He broke our marriage vows

00:52:00 And his family I went to them for help and you know, they never tried to help they were always against me

00:52:09 Especially

00:52:14 My brother my uncle's wife so she she even threw our bed out and did some black magic stuff on it

00:52:24 I

00:52:26 I'm sorry. I didn't want to just blow past the voodoo bedspread scenario. So what?

00:52:33 So at the family home in the village where the tribe is from

00:52:40 My dad's brother, so my uncle his wife apparently

00:52:50 Took the bed out and so my mom and dad's bed after they'd just been married

00:52:55 they had a section on that family plot and she took the bed out and

00:52:59 I'm not sure exactly what she did this because this is my mother's story

00:53:03 But from their perspective the marriage bed is not meant to be touched by outsiders and

00:53:10 That the fact that it was touched and I guess desecrated in a way was like a curse on the marriage from the beginning

00:53:18 Oh

00:53:20 So the reason

00:53:23 There was a voodoo curse on the marriage because somebody else touched the marriage bed

00:53:27 Yeah, so that spread into as well the stepmom

00:53:32 because my dad's

00:53:36 alcohol like

00:53:38 Alcoholism basically died down as soon as my mom was out of the house

00:53:41 She was saying something about my stepmom

00:53:44 You know boiling her underwear in my dad's soup to make him more attracted to her

00:53:49 Sorry, I'm sorry to be so anglo-saxon

00:53:53 What's with the boiling the underwear? Could you step me through that a little I?

00:53:58 Don't know

00:54:01 Really? Okay. I'm actually kind of glad that you don't know actually I was afraid that you would know and and then some

00:54:08 To my whole life

00:54:14 Yeah, but they it's strong belief

00:54:17 Back in our country of origin. So yeah, I don't know

00:54:22 She got hubs from a witch doctor or something and boiled underwear in my dad's soup and it made him

00:54:28 Drunk and crazy when he was around my mom and when my mom finally got out the house, he calmed down

00:54:34 So that's why my mom. I'm sorry that I don't get all caught and Ramsey on you back

00:54:40 Are you kidding me? Are you saying that your mother wore underwear and then boiled it in your father's soup?

00:54:46 Know my stepmother. Oh, you're still in order to get my it doesn't really matter who it is in particular

00:54:54 So the theory is that you wear

00:54:57 Underwear, I guess it soaks up some of your female essence and maybe even a handful of yeast

00:55:02 And then when you're making a man soup you put your underwear in the soup

00:55:09 Apparently

00:55:11 All right, excellent excellent

00:55:16 Okay, I

00:55:19 Also wanted to point out that the your father stuff is always kind of funny, right?

00:55:22 I mean my mom used to do that same kind of stuff your father like it's somehow my choice like I'm associated with him

00:55:27 It's my choice. It's like no. No, no your husband not my father your husband mom

00:55:33 I used to say that to her

00:55:34 Don't tell my father first of all, he's not my father because he's in Africa and fatherhood is not something who's a sperm donor, right?

00:55:40 But no your husband and I use this push

00:55:42 No, don't talk about my father's your husband. Oh

00:55:45 Fine, you know, this is this kind of thing. You're you're responsible for my husband. It's like your father

00:55:52 I don't know. I just it seems like a very common trick for single moms. Yeah

00:55:56 Yeah, she did it all the all the way to I guess when I finally stopped

00:56:03 Talking to them earlier this year. So yeah, it was all throughout. That's what she's always said

00:56:08 You know, are you like this because of your father? Is this your father's stubbornness?

00:56:13 manifesting itself

00:56:15 I'm sure that she could fight stubbornness with maybe

00:56:19 some sort of Brocky some Brocky as opposed to

00:56:23 underwear soup

00:56:25 Some sort of food combined with some sort of personal item care where or something like that

00:56:30 maybe mascara taco or something like that, but

00:56:32 All right. So what happened then in your sort of mid to late teens with your family and and dating and things like that

00:56:39 So I tried to sneak around when I was I think 15 or 16

00:56:49 So first I was asked out by a boy who lived next door

00:56:58 But I broke up with him after a month because I felt guilty

00:57:01 About lying to my mother and

00:57:06 then a boy at school asked me out and I

00:57:12 Was using my siblings as cover. So basically like we're going to the cinema. So I'm taking my siblings to the cinema

00:57:19 so my siblings were basically kind of like chaperones on the date and

00:57:24 yeah, but again after a month I broke that off because I just couldn't handle the emotions and

00:57:32 Having to go around her back and lie about what I was doing

00:57:36 And then what was your concern with your mother what was your fear what what would your mother do if she found it

00:57:44 So

00:57:47 there's like a joke in African families about

00:57:50 you know when you're

00:57:53 Not an adult they say just focus on your studies

00:57:56 Especially if you're a girl don't date anyone because it will distract you

00:58:01 It will ruin your future, you know, you could you know end up having sex and get pregnant

00:58:06 and

00:58:08 Then almost as soon as you enter university, they're like are you dating anyone?

00:58:13 When are you getting married?

00:58:16 That's sort of thing like as if it's meant to happen overnight

00:58:22 So my worry was obviously we'd get we were

00:58:25 I'm a little sorry. So I guess maybe there's a logic here that I'm somewhat not familiar with but

00:58:31 It's it's it's it around the fertility in the pregnancy because your mother seemed very blase about be you being sexually assaulted as a child

00:58:40 So the idea that you I have to hide dating as a teenager when your mother's like, yeah kids get raped

00:58:46 Whatever who cares big no biggie, right? So

00:58:50 I'm sort of trying to follow why there'd be this giant paranoia about you dating when you getting sexually assaulted as a kid was apparently

00:58:57 No biggie. I

00:58:59 Guess it was so drummed into me, but it was probably mostly like a power or control thing

00:59:06 That's the best I've been able to come up with I don't think

00:59:09 It's been just because of how illogical it is to jump from you know, I'm pretty 80

00:59:15 I'm not 18 yet. So I'm not allowed to date but as soon as I'm at university

00:59:20 Oh, you should be meeting your partner here and getting ready to get married. I just couldn't ever understand that logic

00:59:27 Right. Okay, and did your mother date again? Did she get remarried or have longer relationships?

00:59:33 Yeah, so

00:59:36 Again this was all when I was 15. She got engaged and

00:59:44 She had no boundaries the entirety of my teenage years

00:59:48 So I this is how I know a lot of things like about the underwear stories and stuff

00:59:52 So she confessed that

00:59:57 She'd had a miscarriage because they were trying to have a baby her and her fiance I

01:00:03 Didn't particularly like him no particular reason like he hadn't done anything

01:00:08 wrong, it was just at this point my instincts were just

01:00:14 my instincts and yeah, so I begged her not to have a child and we got into a fight because

01:00:21 I'm too young to be talking to adults the way I was I don't know anything

01:00:27 Huh, but you're old enough to hear about your father's miscarriage with her boyfriend. Okay

01:00:31 Yeah, yeah

01:00:34 She would also

01:00:38 Lament about how she was torn away from her last born. So this is my brother

01:00:43 Jerry at the time

01:00:45 because he was still a toddler when

01:00:48 She left

01:00:52 And what's your mother working at this point or how was she how was she getting by

01:00:56 So yeah, she did about between two or three jobs at a time

01:01:02 and

01:01:04 That I guess come down whenever

01:01:06 She she had someone to give her money

01:01:10 so

01:01:13 I think when she was dating this guy the fiance she was down to maybe two or one job

01:01:20 Because he was helping he moved in with us he was staying with us

01:01:26 and

01:01:28 Yeah, so we got into that fight because I was begging her not to have another child

01:01:33 Because I also knew if that relationship

01:01:36 Didn't last which I had a strong suspicion that it wouldn't I would be responsible for helping her to raise that child

01:01:44 We're looking after that child

01:01:46 right

01:01:47 So and that sorry go ahead

01:01:49 So my brother Tom, so again, not his real name. Yeah. Yeah, so our youngest

01:01:56 thing was born when I was 17 and

01:02:02 My mother had broken up with his father at this point when he was born they broke up when she was four months pregnant because

01:02:09 They got into a fight on the street and he hit her in public

01:02:14 So she hadn't learned anything from being beaten up by your dad

01:02:20 No, she likes violent guys, right she's she's attracted to violent guys

01:02:26 Yeah, right

01:02:30 Wow

01:02:32 Yeah, yeah, not quite not quite the victim she portrays I suppose no no definitely not

01:02:38 So

01:02:43 At 17 I was in college. So I think I'm sorry. Sorry. How old were you when your mother was pregnant?

01:02:50 16 so she broke up with the guy and she had the baby I assume

01:02:59 Yes, okay. So she had the baby. I mean did this easy paying child support or how did she survive with the baby?

01:03:05 It's kind of tough to have two or three jobs when you have a baby

01:03:08 So, yeah, she was working I think she took on another job so she was working two three jobs again

01:03:17 So I was obviously helping looking after my siblings still

01:03:22 They got into an agreement. I guess she didn't want to take him to court for child support

01:03:27 but yeah, they agreed to share custody and

01:03:30 he would provide whatever he could whenever he could and

01:03:34 Also, yeah, maybe to a guy who beat her up in public

01:03:39 Yeah, yeah, so I think from the age of about three he would go back and forth between the homes

01:03:47 Okay

01:03:52 All right

01:03:54 Okay, so 17 or so 18 you head to college is that right?

01:03:58 So I headed to university

01:04:02 at 18, oh I forgot to say that I'm at this time obviously because

01:04:07 She's low on money because the she's got now got a new baby and the dad's not around and he's not providing consistent

01:04:14 money, which that's her choice because she didn't take him to court I

01:04:20 remember she brought a random stranger a man home and

01:04:24 She said he's promised to give her 15k and

01:04:31 While we were in the living room the guy kept looking at me and

01:04:37 So she noticed this and pulled me aside and said just smile and flirt

01:04:42 And he was money. Oh, no, please. Don't tell me your mom was trafficking you for 15k

01:04:50 Yeah, oh my god, oh

01:04:53 Gabriel blow the trumpets. Oh

01:04:57 My god, oh my god, I'm sick and this is like a horrible horrible

01:05:02 Trope with regards to some single mothers, right?

01:05:07 That just yeah, if you want my kid, yeah, just just pay me the money. I'll look the other way

01:05:11 Yeah, oh

01:05:15 God, so I said no

01:05:17 How old were you but I knew that if I?

01:05:19 17 so this is just before I went to university. I went off to you know before I went off to university and

01:05:26 So I said

01:05:30 The creep gives you gives your mom $15,000 and then what he gets to date you that's the that's the exchange

01:05:36 No, she just said to me that if you just smile and be friendly and flat

01:05:44 He's gonna give me 15k. Well, no guys don't give 15k for a smile and a flirt

01:05:49 Yeah, that's what she said to me right so this was just step-by-step right selling you off

01:05:57 Yeah, gosh

01:06:01 Well, I and now here's the thing you should be enormously proud of right you certainly said no to that shit, right

01:06:10 Yeah, so, um, I couldn't leave the room because if I threw a strop

01:06:16 I'd get punished for it later, especially if he ended up not giving her anything

01:06:21 Sorry, you don't know through a strop is getting very angry or it's kind of like almost petty like having a temper tantrum or something

01:06:30 Like that

01:06:32 Yeah, okay

01:06:34 So you left that situation and then I stood you go away for uni

01:06:39 Um

01:06:41 No, so with this situation with that guy

01:06:44 I just sat in the living room and just put on what I call the RBF

01:06:48 I think you might know the term the resting bitch face. So

01:06:51 Yeah, yes, I I had to do that all the time when I used to go to the gym just so I wouldn't get swarmed

01:06:58 I'm kidding. Yeah, I've heard of it and I've been on the receiving end of that from time to time

01:07:02 And it's quite a chilly blast to the NAD. So, okay. So yeah, you were basically saying this ain't happening you pimp creep

01:07:08 Yeah

01:07:10 So, um, she didn't yell at me after he left. So I assumed she got something

01:07:14 I don't know if it was the 15k or not. I never asked

01:07:16 And then yeah at 18, I went off to university. I thought I'd feel relieved

01:07:25 But it was more sad because I

01:07:30 Hadn't chosen the course I didn't want to go to university

01:07:37 The only reason university was a thought in my mind was that was my escape my way to escape from

01:07:44 The house and depending on her, right?

01:07:49 And then plus you don't want to wake up in some windowless van on the way to Tijuana

01:07:57 Because someone gave your mom 20k. So yeah

01:08:00 Yeah

01:08:04 Yeah

01:08:06 yeah, I was just really tired and I

01:08:08 wanted a break and I

01:08:10 Thought uni going to uni would be it

01:08:13 But it proved to be more stressful as well in that because of our immigration situation at the time. I

01:08:22 Still couldn't afford to apply for enough financial

01:08:27 support so they only provided I guess the tuition and

01:08:33 The maintenance for the university accommodation

01:08:36 but everything else I still had to

01:08:39 depend on my mum for

01:08:42 It never occurred to me that I could

01:08:44 Get a part-time job. So I still can't remember maybe if the immigration situation would have put a hole in that as well

01:08:51 but I ended up just falling into a deep depression and

01:08:55 That was when I first sought counselling

01:09:02 And I just talked and it wasn't very helpful

01:09:05 And one day my brother Ben

01:09:10 So he was dating at this time. He came to visit me at university

01:09:15 with his girlfriend and she'd been raised in this religion and

01:09:20 They talked to me about it and it sounded really interesting

01:09:24 So I listened and I went oh this sounds so different to all the churches that we were forced to go to

01:09:31 And

01:09:32 After they left I went online. I looked up their organisation. I

01:09:37 filled in a form and requested a couple of people from that religion to come and visit me at university

01:09:45 They came and talked to me and I didn't realise at this point

01:09:51 Obviously I was being love-bombed the more I was exposed to that organisation

01:09:58 But that is how I ended up quitting University and joining a cult

01:10:03 I don't know. It was kind of shift from religion to cult, right?

01:10:08 Yeah, all right. Yeah, we don't have to get into any details. So what were you taking in University? I

01:10:16 Went to do biomedical science, oh wow, okay, and you saying that that wasn't a particular interest of yours

01:10:26 No, so my parents had dreams

01:10:29 Well, not just my parents the whole family extended family because everyone gets to say in your life

01:10:35 They had dreams. So I was supposed to become a doctor

01:10:40 Then my brother after he was supposed to become a pilot and Jerry was supposed to become an architect

01:10:48 right

01:10:50 Those are the dreams. So it's that again African

01:10:54 family is I think they say

01:10:56 lawyer engineer or doctor or

01:11:00 Family disappointment. Those are your options, right? Yeah a little bit of an Asian thing going on there, right?

01:11:05 Yeah

01:11:08 No, I remember I remember some years ago I talked to a

01:11:12 young black man who wanted to pursue medicine, but he was so eloquent that his

01:11:18 Community was like no. No, no, you have to go into politics and get goodies for the community

01:11:23 Okay, excellent

01:11:25 Excellent. All right

01:11:27 Okay, so yeah, so did you leave the university before your first year

01:11:32 Or before the end of no, I finished my first year

01:11:36 I left before the end of my second year

01:11:39 So I was 19 at the time and how were you doing and depression can make it pretty hard to study and retain

01:11:45 How were you doing in the coursework as a whole?

01:11:49 Not very well, so I think I just ended up there was one exam that I that still

01:11:55 Particularly vivid in my mind. I just had a full-on panic attack and I froze and I ran out. Oh

01:12:01 You ran out of the eye

01:12:05 And was this your first panic attack or you had you had them before

01:12:09 No, that was my first panic attack

01:12:14 Yeah, I was a new friend with horror right? Yeah, that's that's always exciting, right?

01:12:19 Yeah

01:12:22 Yeah, so

01:12:24 Yeah, I think I got I didn't completely fail so I think I got mostly C's so I was just passing

01:12:32 I just managed to pass and get the credits

01:12:34 Right barely

01:12:39 So then you left and then you were you were you full-time with this

01:12:43 Religion, is that is that how it went?

01:12:47 In a sense. Yeah, so I tried to find a job which wasn't easy

01:12:52 Not having qualifications and never having worked in my life

01:12:57 so and

01:12:59 At this point as well just to say that our immigration status was constantly shifting and we were on our way to getting

01:13:07 Permanent residents so I could get a job but it just took longer than I thought to get it

01:13:11 So I think it took me about two years

01:13:13 But the cult was quite supportive

01:13:16 So I moved in with an older lady who was in that congregation in the local congregation there

01:13:23 She had some spare room. She owned the house and so everything was subsidized rent bills

01:13:29 Yeah, so I mostly only had to pay a little bit including for my food

01:13:36 Yeah, for the most part people were quite helpful in giving

01:13:40 Knowing you know my story in the circumstances so

01:13:46 And then when I got a part, did you do sorry did you do things in return for this support from this organization?

01:13:53 Yes, so it's probably who you are thinking of they go knocking on people's doors

01:14:00 on the weekends, so

01:14:04 Or during the week so yeah, that's what I dedicated my life to well my

01:14:10 early 20s to pretty much

01:14:13 Okay, and then what happened

01:14:18 So at I think I was 24 so I was still in the cult at 24 and I

01:14:29 Was on reasonably amicable terms with my mom so we would talk

01:14:34 I just knew that we couldn't be in each other's vicinity for more than three days without

01:14:38 Yeah stuff going really bad. So I

01:14:43 Tried to always keep it short and she suggested that we should go back at this point now. We had got our

01:14:52 Immigration sorted so she suggested we should go back and visit the family

01:14:57 back in our country of origin I

01:14:59 Was nervous about it, but I was also curious. I wanted to go back. It'd been I think about 10 years at this point

01:15:06 So it was me

01:15:09 Jerry

01:15:11 Tom and my mother that flew back to visit

01:15:14 they were obviously not happy and had continuously been trying to get me out of the cult and

01:15:21 back to university to finish my studies and

01:15:27 I'd arranged to obviously still be connected to the congregation

01:15:32 That was there in our country of origin. So I'd had the congregation here liaise with the congregation there

01:15:40 So I was going which made my mother's brother who's the family patriarch?

01:15:44 Very very angry and so it was all everyone was pretty much constantly on my case while we were there

01:15:51 about it and

01:15:53 One day I remember coming from a meeting and he wasn't

01:15:56 He wasn't there for I was expecting a lecture or something

01:16:00 And he wasn't there and I asked my aunts where he was and they said he's gone to the country club

01:16:05 And I thought nothing of it. But yeah, he returned pretty drunk

01:16:10 yelling out my name

01:16:12 Asking for me to come out of my room

01:16:16 And I did and yeah, he just launched into me and he was spitting on me yelling at me

01:16:22 about my life choices and

01:16:24 I just remember all my aunts because their room door was open. They just sat there didn't say anything and

01:16:30 It was my brother Jerry who had to come out of his room

01:16:34 To basically separate my uncle from me and try and basically mediate the whole situation

01:16:42 and then they turned on him as well started complaining because he was I think

01:16:47 21 at the time and they have this thing about you know, young people just can't talk a certain way or have certain conversations with older people

01:16:55 So, yeah, so yeah, Jerry also became persona non grata in a way and

01:17:03 Yeah, I couldn't wait to leave we left and I came back and I was it felt like I'd overcome something huge and everyone in

01:17:12 the congregation was you know congratulating me because um

01:17:16 Yeah, I survived

01:17:18 But then there was a lot of things that were happening within my friend group and it just started to make me

01:17:23 realize that I was an occult start to see things for what they were and

01:17:29 that then figured another bout of depression

01:17:34 And

01:17:37 Then I think I attempted

01:17:39 suicide at this point when I was 26 and

01:17:44 All they had to say to me for the most part was pray about it when I said I was considering going to counseling

01:17:51 Again to get therapy they said, you know

01:17:54 Just be mindful, you know, they would never tell you outright don't do this. Don't do that

01:17:59 It was but it was always like strongly hinted in a way that you shouldn't do certain things

01:18:05 so they would you know when I suggested I wanted to go to therapy because I was feeling really really

01:18:11 On the verge of doing something stupid

01:18:14 Yeah, they were like pray about it, you know, you just have to pray harder be careful of secular

01:18:21 Advice because they could lead you away from the truth. And yeah, so I

01:18:28 tried to take some

01:18:31 strong painkillers that I was using at the time for really bad periods and tried to take overdose on them and I

01:18:40 Didn't die

01:18:42 As I'd hoped so I woke up the next day with a really bad stomachache and just throwing up a lot

01:18:48 But I also had this almost conviction that it was a sign that I had to just get out

01:18:56 Do something about it

01:18:59 So at this time as well

01:19:02 I I was kind of easing my way out because I couldn't just leave because I was worried that

01:19:10 Given everything had been subsidized for me up to that point. It was not immediately possible for me to get my own place

01:19:17 I had to save up so I you know

01:19:20 Got a full-time job made an excuse about why I couldn't fully give more time to the organization

01:19:25 So I got a full-time job and I was saving up. My main worry was

01:19:29 If I just left having to end up moving back with my mom

01:19:32 And I didn't want to do that

01:19:35 so

01:19:38 After my failed suicide attempt I immediately called

01:19:42 The NHS helpline and they put me in touch with the counselor. So I did cognitive behavioral therapy

01:19:49 For about a year and that was really helpful. So

01:19:52 Missing I'm missing something. So my siblings as well. We're quite supportive during this time

01:20:01 So this was actually the point at which my brother Jerry

01:20:05 Introduced me to you and your your show

01:20:08 Because I was struggling to read which was a hobby of mine

01:20:13 And so he introduced me to audio books and podcasts and then my brother Ben

01:20:17 suggested I get off the pill as well and antidepressants because he was you know, he'd done sports science at

01:20:26 college and

01:20:28 Suspected that obviously they were not helping me at all in terms of my mood and said just join the gym

01:20:34 Stop taking those things and get on some supplements instead

01:20:37 so I did a combination of all those things and

01:20:40 Yeah, I started to feel better but people in the cult were not really happy

01:20:46 So that's also another thing that I realized that they weren't after my best interests

01:20:51 Yeah, it's nothing more revealing sometimes than getting happy yeah

01:20:57 Yeah

01:20:59 So I mentioned

01:21:01 What I was trying to do to Ben he got married at this point and was living

01:21:06 Outside the city and I mentioned it to him that I was worried about

01:21:11 Having to move back in with my mom and they had a spare bedroom where they were living

01:21:18 So they said you can come and live with us while you keep saving we won't charge you any

01:21:25 Rent and bills you just have to pay your own food

01:21:28 And then once you've got enough money for a deposit you can move out and that's what I did

01:21:34 So I moved in with Ben and his wife for about nine months. I moved out

01:21:38 Oh, you know, I saved everything I could and I wanted to move out as soon as possible

01:21:43 and

01:21:46 I managed to do that in nine months

01:21:48 While I was living with them. So I got my own place for the first time at 27

01:21:54 And while living with them, I realized obviously that everything wasn't as peachy as it seemed on their end either so Ben

01:22:02 Was and his wife were addicted to marijuana

01:22:05 to weed

01:22:08 At the time

01:22:11 he was

01:22:12 Quote-unquote self-employed, but I later found out that he wasn't making his money legally. He wasn't selling drugs or anything

01:22:19 He just was committing fraud

01:22:21 basically

01:22:25 Yeah, so I moved out and

01:22:27 You know slowly slowly things started to improve for me. I managed to get a corporate job

01:22:32 I moved it. I'm still renting

01:22:35 Because I've never really wanted to buy my own place yet, but not because I can't afford it

01:22:42 Well, probably now I can't but

01:22:46 Yeah

01:22:51 Sorry, I'm I think I'm fogging a bit so where am I?

01:22:53 Yeah, so I've moved I'm living I'm living on my own

01:22:57 And yeah, I have I guess a strong bond with Ben and his wife and

01:23:04 You know, I see my siblings from time to time they come and visit they can stay with me I have a corporate corporate job

01:23:12 I'm paying all my bills. I'm happy. I got a car and

01:23:16 everything and then

01:23:19 I

01:23:21 Think last year I start to have clashes with Ben

01:23:27 Just over noticing certain contradictions in his beliefs and values so I've said I've been listening to your show on and off

01:23:38 So it was on and off back then

01:23:41 But it increased

01:23:45 Significantly this year so I became a subscriber properly this year and that was after Jerry came to visit and he

01:23:52 For the he was the first person that spoke to me so

01:23:57 Honestly without any how should I say I

01:24:02 Didn't feel there was selfish intent in his

01:24:07 Gender that kind of stuff

01:24:11 Yeah

01:24:14 Everyone else who talked to me about this topic of the fact that I I made this vow to myself that I didn't want to

01:24:21 Get married and have children

01:24:23 Always had some intention usually family members

01:24:27 And after my experience with family, I just yeah, I didn't want it and

01:24:32 Jerry obviously came and spoke to me in earnest and I

01:24:36 Took it to heart and I I was very keen to get to the bottom of it and figure figure things out

01:24:43 Before it was too late

01:24:45 With eggs and whatnot, so

01:24:49 Yeah, I subscribe to your show and I binged as as much as I could

01:24:54 on philosophy and I

01:24:57 Ended up figuring out that the reason

01:25:01 So even though I knew that in part

01:25:04 It was a way to almost punish my parents by not making them grandkids

01:25:10 That didn't make me want to get married and have kids. So I thought that's not deep enough. I

01:25:16 Need to dig deeper. I was still searching for a therapist that I could trust at this point

01:25:23 So I was obviously mostly relying on your shows and the call-ins and then I

01:25:30 figured out after

01:25:34 Countless, you know conversations with Ben

01:25:39 and pushing back on contradictions and having conversations about our childhood where he would defend our parents and

01:25:46 Say that I'm just being a victim. I

01:25:50 Realized that I

01:25:54 Basically back-engineered the process in a way I think so I asked myself

01:26:00 Well, what happens if I meet a quality mate? So a bit like you do on the show what happens if you meet a quality mate?

01:26:05 Who's virtuous? Well?

01:26:09 They're gonna come and have a look at my family and I'm still in touch with them and what are they gonna say?

01:26:14 Well, and I realize only what are they gonna feel about their children being raised under the influence of

01:26:23 You know people like underwear boiler lady

01:26:26 Yeah, well underwear boiler lady died many many years ago

01:26:34 Okay, which was another thing I got into a fight with my mom about because I don't know why but I cried

01:26:40 Maybe it's just the first time that someone I actually knew and spent time with it passed away

01:26:44 But she got jealous of it. And yeah, no she to me for it. She got jealous of what?

01:26:52 My stepmother so that's the one who boiled the underwear and she passed away

01:26:57 Some years ago. No, I get that. But what was your mother jealous of?

01:27:03 Because I was crying for my stepmother. Oh, I see. Okay. Got it

01:27:07 All right

01:27:08 So you had the revelation about sort of quality guy and your family and all that kind of stuff and your siblings maybe

01:27:13 And what happened then?

01:27:16 Yeah, so I realized that I would be put in a tough position

01:27:21 because the sibling that he would fight the most was the one who I considered the closest to me, which was Ben so

01:27:26 He would well not fight obviously, but get into

01:27:32 Agreements with and he was quite

01:27:34 Brusque is the word I would say. I'm sorry was Ben the pot smoking fraud guy

01:27:43 Yeah, so he that's that's quit smoking weed at this point. But he

01:27:50 He'd got into things like red pill

01:27:53 he's

01:27:56 Yeah

01:28:00 What about the what about the criminal fraud stuff

01:28:02 All right, so he's got what we call

01:28:06 The gift of the gab so he was able to talk

01:28:10 the tax man into

01:28:13 Some kind of deal so he's paying everything back slowly, I believe

01:28:18 Well, but that's the taxes. What about the people he defrauded? Oh

01:28:22 No, so he didn't defraud actual people. It was the actual oh, he didn't pay taxes. All right

01:28:29 So

01:28:31 I think the what he did was

01:28:33 Claim back more than he was

01:28:37 He claimed back too much basically so he got he managed to somehow figure out a way to get the tax people to

01:28:45 Give him more rebates than he was due and they bought on to it. Okay. Got it. Got it

01:28:51 all right, and

01:28:55 So when did you get the revelation about sort of family of origin and effects on dating and so on?

01:28:59 I think this year I'd say like quite fully understood it

01:29:09 Okay, and

01:29:13 This has not I'm sorry

01:29:15 And I know we last talked about you sort of dating with the two boys that you broke off after a month in your teens

01:29:21 What's happened since?

01:29:24 Nothing. Um, I I knew that I didn't want to get married or have kids, but I'm also not the type to

01:29:31 Go and sleep around I guess I'm

01:29:34 My beliefs are very much conservative in that way

01:29:38 So yeah, I was kind of in none without actually being in a nunnery, right? Okay, okay

01:29:45 And

01:29:49 You in your 30s now, is that right?

01:29:52 My early 30s early 30s. Okay. Got it. Got it and

01:29:55 Other than the two boys when you were in your teens, you haven't had a relationship. Is that right?

01:30:01 No, okay. Got it

01:30:04 Right, and is there anything else that you wanted to mention before we move to the next part?

01:30:09 I don't know if it's relevant, but I'm talking to someone right now in the community. I

01:30:20 Think I guess we are kind of dating but yeah, it's long distance. So yeah, I don't know if that's relevant or not

01:30:27 I mean, I think it's a good thing. I suppose um, so as

01:30:31 Far as you solve the you know

01:30:35 I want to punish my parents by not giving them grandkids and you know issues with the family of origin and dating and so on

01:30:40 To try and find a quality guy

01:30:42 Is there anything else that you think of as a barrier to you sort of moving forward or settling down getting married having kids and so on?

01:30:49 Yeah

01:30:51 Yeah, so my concern is

01:30:56 Having children

01:31:02 Or getting married and I

01:31:06 Guess realizing maybe I just wanted to work on my life. I don't know

01:31:14 Well now that's our first serious fog being

01:31:18 Yeah

01:31:20 Yeah, I've spent so much time I guess just

01:31:27 Satisfying everyone else's needs and stuff and

01:31:33 now that I've obviously realized that I made that decision because I didn't want to face the reality of my family and

01:31:40 That I actually do want to have my own family

01:31:47 My concerns are releasing myself from this just overly self-reliant

01:31:52 Version of myself

01:31:57 So tell me what you mean about serving everyone else's needs

01:32:00 So it was a family

01:32:04 Where I just spent most of my time if I truly expressed myself

01:32:08 My thoughts and my feelings I was punished in some way shape or form

01:32:13 If I didn't express my thoughts and feelings because I didn't want to get into confrontations or arguments

01:32:19 I was punished in some way shape or form

01:32:22 Okay, so it's really more self-erasing than serving other people's needs other people's needs were like when I think of serving other people's needs

01:32:32 It's like, you know, my father wants this so I went over and did it my mother wants that so I I went over and

01:32:37 And you know, we did her garden or whatever, right?

01:32:40 But it's more around the price of being in a quote relationship with your family of origin

01:32:45 Particularly your parents it seems is that you just have to falsify or negate your thoughts and feelings. Is that right?

01:32:53 Yeah. Yeah

01:32:56 okay, got it and

01:32:58 The status you said I think you said that you stopped talking to your parents. Did I get that right?

01:33:03 yeah, yeah, I stopped talking to my father much earlier because

01:33:09 Yeah, I just got the impression that he had this expectation that we were always meant to make the effort

01:33:14 Into keeping in touch and then yeah with my mother that blew up

01:33:20 along with

01:33:22 my contact with Ben because they're expecting their first child and

01:33:27 Yeah, they were talking about things like it's alright to hit your children children need to learn discipline

01:33:35 They convinced Tom Tom who you know

01:33:38 Only four years ago was crying to me

01:33:41 About his parents abusing him and we you know threatened to call social services on them and Ben was gonna go, you know fight

01:33:50 with

01:33:51 Tom's dad if he didn't stop

01:33:53 but Tom was yeah out here defending being hit and

01:34:02 Yeah, I just I had a no well I assumed that he's simply

01:34:06 Pussy-whipped right? I mean isn't wouldn't it be the case that that's what his wife wants and he's just going along with it

01:34:13 Sorry, who's that? Well, you said you want to be a brother sort of changed his mind on discipline or hitting

01:34:21 No, all right, so that's my youngest brother who's still at home

01:34:30 Yeah, so I suppose for him it's that fear of standing up for them as well while he's still under their roof he can't really

01:34:37 He's not even an adult yet. So right. Okay. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Got it

01:34:43 Right, all right

01:34:47 So

01:34:50 What would you say is the core

01:34:53 sentence in your mind that is preventing you from

01:34:59 Getting married being happy about it trusting the process becoming a mom being happy about it trusting yourself in that process

01:35:06 What do you think's the big sentence in your mind? That's sort of spinning around that's in the way of that

01:35:10 What if I decide wrong

01:35:21 What if I end up like my mom

01:35:25 What

01:35:27 If I have to leave my kids behind as well, yeah

01:35:38 Okay

01:35:43 So that that's a question, but usually a question is something we want to explore a statement is where we stop exploring

01:35:50 You know when you say I wonder what the answer is you go and look it up if you're like

01:35:54 Well, I already know the answer then that has more impact on

01:35:58 Our lives because we've not in a state of curiosity

01:36:01 So I assume that there's some statement in your mind not a what-if but it is or it will be

01:36:07 All right

01:36:11 I'm not sure

01:36:22 What is the relationship that you've had that you would characterize as containing the maximum amount of trust

01:36:29 I don't think I've ever given anyone 100% trust

01:36:42 All right. I'm not sure what a hundred percent trust is. What number have we gotten to I say the royal we third person

01:36:50 What number have you gotten to in terms of trust what percentage?

01:36:54 So Jerry's in the high 90s

01:36:57 my sibling

01:36:59 The one who listens to your show

01:37:01 Okay, so if you trust him have you asked him

01:37:08 Whether he thinks you will end up like your mom

01:37:12 Yeah, we talk about these things a lot and what does he say

01:37:20 Um, yeah, he doesn't think I I will he's constantly

01:37:25 commending me for

01:37:29 Things that I do that are more self-aware

01:37:32 Okay, if you start interrupt, so if was it Jerry or Ben, sorry. Yeah, Jerry Jerry. Yeah, so if Jerry says

01:37:41 Don't worry sis. You're not gonna end up like mom

01:37:43 But you still think you might then you don't trust him

01:37:50 So trust is when you don't have to check right

01:37:52 Right trust is when you don't have to check

01:37:59 Like if you've got someone watching your back, right?

01:38:02 you've got you've got foes ahead of you and foes behind you and you're standing back-to-back with someone and

01:38:06 You say is the back clear if they say yes

01:38:11 Would you feel the need to turn around and check?

01:38:14 No, I think you would

01:38:19 I

01:38:21 Think you if I trusted them really yeah, no. Yes

01:38:24 So if you trust them, right, no

01:38:26 But would you at the moment if you're like you and I know not you and I but you were back-to-back with someone facing

01:38:32 Danger and you say is the back clear and they say yes, would you feel the urge to check?

01:38:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would right so

01:38:43 Trust is when you offload

01:38:49 Monitoring surveillance risk for danger trust is when you get eyes in the back of your head

01:38:56 That you trust right so there's this usual thing around I

01:39:03 Don't know. So husbands and wives right and and and the husband is doing the dishes, right?

01:39:08 And what does the wife feel the urge to do?

01:39:11 When he's stacking the dishes, what does she feel the urge to do?

01:39:18 To do it herself. Well, she feels the urge to check

01:39:22 Has he done it? Has he done a good job? Has he done it properly? I

01:39:26 Mean that you could say the opposite thing like the wife is changing the oil of the car and the husband wants to go out and

01:39:34 Make sure it's going. Okay or whatever, right?

01:39:37 Yeah

01:39:40 so trust is when

01:39:43 You truly believe that what someone else is saying is the truth and it doesn't need to be checked I

01:39:48 Mean you work a corporate job, right? How valuable are people whose work you never have to check?

01:39:54 Very valuable, but they're massively valuable

01:40:02 Yeah, in fact anybody whose work you have to check in my view just shouldn't be in the workforce

01:40:09 They should be doing something else

01:40:10 I don't know maybe raising kids or whatever, but if you have because if you have to double-check someone's work

01:40:14 It's easier to do it yourself

01:40:17 So

01:40:21 If you were in the 90-plus percentage

01:40:26 With your brother with Jerry

01:40:31 Then if he says don't worry sis, I can see you objective from the outside

01:40:36 I've known you since we were little kids. I've seen your whole three decade plus life journey

01:40:40 Don't worry. You're not going to turn into mom, right?

01:40:43 Now do you know what trust in a relationship would be oh

01:40:50 Okay, I never have to worry about that again

01:40:55 Right

01:41:07 You

01:41:09 So when did he say or for how long is he said don't worry sis you're not gonna turn into your mom

01:41:17 Um, I

01:41:22 Mean he's not said those exact words to me is you know, he commended me for example when I

01:41:28 Didn't immediately yell at Tom over the summer about something that he'd done which in the past

01:41:36 I probably would have been my mom. I'm sorry. We need to back up because I thought I'm sure it was just my misinterpretation

01:41:41 I thought or my understanding was that you had talked to him about your fears of turning into your mom and he'd said that that's

01:41:47 Not going to happen. Is it the case that you haven't mentioned to him directly these fears about turning into your mom?

01:41:52 Yeah, I've not said those exact words

01:41:56 Okay, now this is not start

01:41:59 Let's not start nitpicking about I'm not saying the exact words because of course I couldn't reproduce how you would say it

01:42:05 And this is not a criticism. I'm just curious if this is you think the biggest barrier to you settling down and

01:42:11 Being a wife and a mom

01:42:13 It's fear of turning into your mother. Why would you think that you hadn't brought it up with your 90-plus?

01:42:19 trust relationship with Jerry

01:42:22 Well, no, I have I brought it up and we've talked about it

01:42:26 Okay, so I'm a little confused here so

01:42:31 You have brought up your worst fear about getting about settling down with Jerry and he's told you that

01:42:37 You don't need to worry about it. It's not going to happen

01:42:39 He's not said I don't need to worry about it

01:42:44 He's basically said

01:42:47 These are the steps you can take these are the things you can do to avoid it

01:42:52 And do you believe the steps that he says you can do to avoid do you believe that he's right about those steps?

01:43:01 Yes

01:43:03 But I don't believe I perhaps could implement them well enough to fully avoid it

01:43:10 well

01:43:14 If does he know that he's giving you steps that you don't think you can follow

01:43:18 No

01:43:23 so

01:43:24 What is his like I mean to take a silly example if you said to me a Steph you can get everything your heart desires

01:43:30 you just need to

01:43:32 Be 40 again and regrow your hair right would that be something that I could achieve

01:43:37 No, well no, so if somebody's giving me a task that I don't believe is possible

01:43:45 Then how well does he know you if he's giving you a task that you don't think is possible and you haven't said to him

01:43:54 I don't know if I can do that. I'm not sure that that's possible

01:43:57 I mean have you replied to him and again, this is not a right or wrong thing

01:44:00 I'm just curious about the conversation. Have you replied to him that?

01:44:03 You don't

01:44:07 Believe that you can necessarily achieve his goals or his steps about not turning into him

01:44:14 So it's not that

01:44:18 He's giving me things to do that impossible

01:44:21 So like he will send me for example an episode of a show of a show or a call-in and we'll talk about it

01:44:27 How that relates to our lives?

01:44:29 my mom and

01:44:32 You know what lessons I could take from it. I

01:44:34 Just don't necessarily I guess

01:44:44 Even when I listen, I think it might just be a lack of trust in myself

01:44:48 And

01:44:54 What do you not trust?

01:44:55 So let's say let's say that you get married and your husband does something that's annoying to you

01:45:01 What is your worst-case scenario how you would handle that?

01:45:04 Like my mom would

01:45:09 Okay, and how did your mom handle it when your dad did something she didn't like?

01:45:14 You

01:45:16 Basically keep talking about it

01:45:21 I'm not sure what you mean nagging or what do you mean?

01:45:26 Yeah, so, you know like she she used like to poke at people so, you know, you should have done this

01:45:34 This wouldn't have happened if you'd done that

01:45:39 Okay, so you're aware that that's a habit that your mother has that is not good right

01:45:43 Yes, okay

01:45:46 now

01:45:48 Do you feel concerned that you will simply lose control of your mouth and it will be?

01:45:53 disembodied like you'll be looking yourself from the ceiling and watching this

01:45:57 maternal puppet say these things or

01:46:00 Do you think that you would be able to stop yourself from from from doing that?

01:46:07 I know I would be able to stop myself. I've done it many many times already

01:46:12 Okay, so you have a track record of not doing what your mother does

01:46:16 Yes, and you've done it successfully. I would assume countless times, right? Hey, you may have even done it over the course of this conversation

01:46:24 I don't know right but you've done it successfully a large number of times, right?

01:46:28 Yeah, no, that's what Jerry's constantly reminding me of I have I have

01:46:36 I've done it. Yeah. Okay. So the belief is not empirical because you've successfully resisted the temptation to do as your mother does many times, right?

01:46:44 Yes

01:46:47 So what do you think would happen or what do you think would change that you would lose this ability that you've demonstrated for many years?

01:47:06 I

01:47:08 Realize how irrational this is but my husband or partner were to change

01:47:21 And I know that doesn't happen I don't care about rational irrational just curious what you're thinking what do you mean he would change

01:47:33 Like

01:47:35 If I chose someone and I found out they were violent

01:47:41 Because yeah, I guess I've also seen people lie

01:47:48 And pretend and oh

01:47:53 Yeah, but that's just a maternal curse, right? I

01:47:57 Mean sorry to be so blunt. Maybe that's a little you're you've listened for a while

01:48:01 Yeah, okay

01:48:04 Yeah, so so your mother

01:48:07 What to what to?

01:48:09 Women who choose violent men

01:48:12 What do they always say when somebody tries to hand them responsibility? Oh

01:48:18 I didn't know that he was violent. There was no way to know he was so nice. He was so peaceful

01:48:26 he was so lovely and

01:48:28 then

01:48:30 After years and years of him being nice and peaceful and wonderful and lovely. He just changed he was possessed

01:48:36 right

01:48:38 And you know that yeah hold a lie, right I

01:48:41 Do because my mother was warned by even her brothers about my father. Yeah, so your brother said this is a violent guy

01:48:49 We know violent guys were guys. Maybe we can assess this better than you. He's a violent guy. He's a violent guy

01:48:54 I'm sure he was violent before they got married. I'm sure he drank excessively before they got married

01:48:59 I'm sure he was verbally abusive before they got married. So she had every single possible sign

01:49:04 That she was marrying a violent guy she was warned she had direct experience no question right does that make sense

01:49:11 Yeah, right

01:49:14 Now later, of course she plays dumb right because she doesn't want to take ownership. She doesn't want to take responsibility, right?

01:49:21 Mm-hmm

01:49:23 So I

01:49:27 Mean it's just a kind of funny thing just by the by sort of the male perspective of all of this is just kind of

01:49:32 tragically funny right which is well

01:49:35 We have absolutely no idea of the true nature of guys who are super violent destructive and alcoholics

01:49:41 But man, should we ever be allowed to vote for political candidates?

01:49:45 Wait a minute

01:49:46 You can't even tell who's violent and evil and destructive when they're right in front of you and you date them for years

01:49:52 But some guy on TV you could judge

01:49:54 Now I think that women can judge right? It's just

01:49:57 It's just kind of funny women. I mean, they really claim to be completely

01:50:02 Braindead when it comes to evaluating character, but that's just a defense, right?

01:50:08 So your mother has this magical cloak, which she throws over her accountability called. Well, I knew him for years

01:50:14 There was absolutely no way to know which is a total lie

01:50:17 But if you believe that lie then you believe that an

01:50:23 Angel can can successfully mask the inner devil for years and then it just comes out, you know

01:50:30 Right

01:50:36 So that's what I mean, like it's just a maternal curse your mother's excuse has become some sort of empirical fact for you

01:50:43 Thank you

01:50:45 Your mother lying about knowing ahead of time how violent and destructive your father was and

01:50:51 Decided to marry him and give him children, you know, the greatest gift and so on right and

01:50:58 So yeah, your mother saying there was no way for me to know is putting a curse on you

01:51:03 Which is you can't ever trust a man. You can't ever trust a man. I

01:51:10 Don't know how that's possible to do even knowing everything that I know

01:51:15 Is it just like brainwashing then from just constantly having to listen to that over and over again? Oh, no

01:51:22 No, it's not brainwashing. My gosh, don't

01:51:24 Don't you you you know, if there's one thing I would say to you is please dial up the self-respect

01:51:29 It's not it's not brainwashing I

01:51:36 Mean if you if you're locked in some North Korean prison and

01:51:39 You have to praise the supreme leader in order to get your slice of bread to survive you go and praise the supreme leader, right?

01:51:47 All right, and you say well I was brainwashed it's like no you weren't that was the price of survival

01:51:55 Right the price of survival with regards to your mother

01:52:01 was to nod and go along with her victim narrative and you fought this of course in your teens and

01:52:07 You didn't win right? You never got her to accept responsibility, right?

01:52:11 No, you know, it's like that matrix the neo thing with all the bullets flying by in slow motion

01:52:18 It's not all women, but you know some women it's like the bullets are all accountability and it's dodge dodge dodge, right?

01:52:23 So no, it's the price of survival the price of your mother

01:52:30 Giving you food and shelter and not abandoning you. I mean she was willing to

01:52:34 Sell you for 15,000 quid, right?

01:52:38 So your mother doesn't have any particular bond with you

01:52:42 It sounds like to me at least of course just from the amateur outside opinion doesn't sound like she's got any bond with you whatsoever

01:52:47 So if you were to have challenged her victim narrative and trust me

01:52:52 I've done this with the mother and so I know I don't want to confuse our two experiences. Maybe yours would be different

01:52:58 But if you were to say no, come on mom you were warned by your brothers

01:53:03 He was totally it was totally obvious

01:53:05 You chose to get married your date get engaged to get married have kids with and stay with a violent guy

01:53:10 That's exposing your children to violence

01:53:12 So no you you absolutely knew and please don't try and you know

01:53:16 You can try and pull this victim narrative with others

01:53:18 But you know, I I know too much this is ridiculous and you're a hundred and fifty percent responsible for the violent guy

01:53:24 You married right? What would she say?

01:53:27 I

01:53:29 Can you talk to me like that

01:53:32 I'm your mother after everything we've been through

01:53:35 Okay, let's do this. Right? So then I would say well as your mother, isn't it important that you not lie to me? I

01:53:41 Mean I was you know, you always told me tell the truth right tell the truth. Don't lie

01:53:45 So you lying and saying that you had no idea the dad was violent. Come on

01:53:51 You know how destructive that is for me, right?

01:53:53 Like you get to feel like maybe you weren't to blame for having a violent guy be the father of your children

01:53:58 well

01:53:58 and by the way, two violent guys because then the the kid you had when I was in my

01:54:03 Teens it was also with a violent guy. So you like the violent guys. You prefer the violent guys

01:54:08 Maybe you feel that's all you were worth. Maybe the violence turns you on. I don't know. It doesn't really matter

01:54:12 But just don't lie to me and tell me you're a victim

01:54:15 Like if you want my respect you have to earn it by maybe not

01:54:20 Sacrificing my trust in men for the sake of your own pathetic defense of your own pathetically bad choices. I

01:54:24 Don't know where you're getting all these things

01:54:30 You don't sound like my daughter at all. Oh

01:54:33 yeah, well I'm getting these things called facts right and that I know that your brothers warned you about him and

01:54:38 Even after you had the experience of dating a violent guy or marrying a violent guy having kids with a violent guy

01:54:45 What did you do you dated and then had another kid with oh, look at that another violent guy

01:54:51 Right. So even though you had exposure to a violent guy for many years

01:54:54 I then went out and had another kid with another violent guy who beat you up in public or hit you in public or something

01:54:59 Like that. So all of this talk that you didn't know that he just changed

01:55:04 It's just a lie and it's an incredibly destructive lie. It comes at the expense of my heart

01:55:09 It comes at my capacity to trust men

01:55:11 Because if I genuinely believed you mom that that a guy could just be super wonderful nice and pleasant

01:55:16 But then just turn into this monstrous alcoholic violent demon out of nowhere you realize

01:55:21 Because you're lying about all of that

01:55:24 I have a very difficult time trusting men because of your lies and I just sick of it

01:55:30 I'm sick of you lying about your responsibility. You are responsible for your life. You're responsible for choosing these violent guys

01:55:35 You wait until you get married and you'll see get married and have your own kids and you'll see what it's like

01:55:45 So what you're doing is now rather than take any ownership for your life is you're attempting to make me paranoid and curse me

01:55:52 About the future and you're saying that all

01:55:55 women who get married and have children end up being beaten up or in

01:56:00 Manipulative or screaming matches or whatever it is, right?

01:56:03 Well, no, I mean this there's lots of couples out there

01:56:06 Lots of married people who don't yell at each other who don't hit their children who don't get beaten up by their husband

01:56:11 Their husband's not an alcoholic

01:56:12 So no, this isn't everyone mom. This is just you just you and you're trying to make it everyone

01:56:17 because you'd rather

01:56:20 screw with my head and

01:56:22 Screw with my capacity to fall in love and pair bond and trust rather than take any accountability for yourself

01:56:27 Do you know how like pathetic and destructive that is?

01:56:30 I don't want to talk about this anymore

01:56:32 When you've talked to me about this decade after decade

01:56:39 You don't get to end the conversation because you've had this conversation

01:56:43 You've given me these thoughts and these ideas year after year decade after decade

01:56:47 So no, you don't get to end this conversation when it's suddenly inconvenient for you

01:56:51 How convenient you think it was for me as a kid hearing all of this?

01:56:54 nonsense these lies

01:56:56 About your oh such a victim such a victim

01:56:59 No

01:57:00 You don't get to stop the conversation because you're the one who started the conversation and kept it going for decades

01:57:04 So now that I want to talk about it you damn well sit and listen

01:57:07 I

01:57:09 Should even stop crying at this point

01:57:12 Yeah, so I'm just you know

01:57:15 I'll give you a moment to collect yourself because I get there's all this self-pity and you know

01:57:18 I don't believe these crocodile tears for a moment

01:57:20 But you know do you take a couple of deep breaths?

01:57:22 Hey, man, you know I can get you a glass of water if you want you look like you might need some rehydration

01:57:26 so yeah, you know have your little cry and and take a couple of deep breaths and and we'll

01:57:32 We'll get on with it. See I don't know if you remember this one. I'm sure you do mom

01:57:36 I like you're you're crying and hyperventilating about a difficult conversation when you're the one who told me

01:57:43 Oh, yeah, it gets just get sexually assaulted and molested and raped and whatever, right?

01:57:48 So I was supposed to just be fine with that. So child's rape. Yeah, okay

01:57:52 Apparently I was supposed to be just fine with that

01:57:54 But you're like hyperventilating and crying over a difficult conversation like you again

01:58:00 I'm trying to hold on to a shred of respect for you, but this is all just

01:58:04 Manipulative so, you know, take your time finish your cry and we'll get on with the combo

01:58:07 I don't know what's happened to you. I'm just gonna pray for you. I don't know how you became this way

01:58:14 How can you talk to me like this?

01:58:17 So, how can I ask you questions I hold you accountable

01:58:22 You realize that I got punished as a kid because you held me accountable all the time

01:58:25 So apparently when I'm three or five or seven or ten

01:58:29 I'm supposed to be held accountable for lying or bad decisions

01:58:32 But you now that you're in your 50s or 60s you just not to be held accountable for for anything

01:58:38 Is that right like accountability is just for kids who are five not for women who were pushing 60, right?

01:58:43 That's that's not a thing

01:58:45 I'm done with this. I don't want to talk about this anymore. Go and live your life do whatever you want. I don't care

01:58:51 Just leave

01:58:53 You're a demon, you know, just out here to ruin my relationships with my sons to sleep get out of here. I'm done

01:59:00 Okay, so if I have questions that you don't like or you find uncomfortable, no, I don't know

01:59:06 I just want to understand like I'll walk out the door. Listen, I'm not gonna bother you for more than another minute

01:59:10 Yeah, leave. Okay, so you would rather leave and you're gonna call me a demon because I'm holding you responsible for your life

01:59:17 Yeah, yeah

01:59:20 So responsibility for you is just Satan likes any kind of accountability or responsibility

01:59:26 It's just Satan and anyone who tries to say you are a responsible woman

01:59:30 You're responsible for your life is a demon that you just don't care about

01:59:33 Is that right? Like you don't care about me if I have questions that make you uncomfortable

01:59:37 She just

01:59:42 Close me out at that point. Okay. Well, that's very that's a very revealing

01:59:47 Role play, isn't it?

01:59:50 Yeah

01:59:52 So I

01:59:55 Mean do you know what the bond is for?

01:59:57 The bond is for when it's horrible. That's what the bond is, right?

02:00:02 Like do you need to glue your bed to the floor

02:00:06 No, no, why not

02:00:09 Because it's got things to keep it on the floor gravity because gravity yeah, cuz it's already stuck to the floor

02:00:18 So you don't need to glue it. Do you know what you need to glue together is things that are gonna fly apart, right?

02:00:24 Yeah

02:00:26 Or you need to put a weight on a balloon so like a helium balloon so it doesn't fly away, right

02:00:32 So that you need the bond for when things are difficult when when the natural attraction the natural is not there, right?

02:00:38 That's what the bond is for

02:00:40 So if your mother

02:00:44 Like verbally abuses you cause you a demon and like I take that very seriously. That's not just a turn of phrase

02:00:51 Right like you're a satanic and evil for holding her responsible for holding the accountable or just for being honest

02:00:58 Then she will always choose her comfort over your happiness

02:01:03 She will always choose her immediate comfort over your peace of mind and security. She will always choose

02:01:08 her immediate happiness over your long-term future

02:01:13 Yeah, okay, so that's what it is

02:01:21 That and do you remember I said like you lying or supporting her delusions is the price of

02:01:29 The relationship or the pretend relationship right? Like if you're honest, she'll just kick you to the curb and not even look back

02:01:36 Yeah, okay. So there's no bond and listen, that's fine. That's fine. Honestly, I hate to say that's fine. Like it's sad

02:01:43 But it's like okay. So if there's no bond

02:01:47 Then I'm gonna treat you like a stranger I mean you don't have bonds with strangers, right I

02:01:53 Mean if somebody knocks on your door and says hey man, I need $50,000 in a kidney you'd be like well good luck

02:02:01 But I don't even know you right

02:02:03 Whereas if someone you truly love and and care for needs $50,000 in a kidney

02:02:09 I mean you'll at least consider it right and you'd probably do it

02:02:12 Yes, right

02:02:16 Right

02:02:18 So if there's no bond then you judge her

02:02:23 According to objective moral standards because she's saying we have no history our history doesn't count we have no bond and

02:02:32 therefore I'm going to

02:02:35 I'm gonna put myself at the category of people with whom I have no history because the history is what's supposed to accumulate into a

02:02:44 Kind of bond, right?

02:02:46 Right and so

02:02:48 You then if there's no bond right and and somebody who says like if I if I walk up to some some stranger

02:02:57 I don't know like I'm sitting next to that stranger on the bus

02:02:59 Right, and and I start to ask them, you know deep probing questions about their life choices or something like that

02:03:05 They might be uncomfortable and they might say listen item. I'm moving to another seat. I did I'm just here for a business trip

02:03:12 I'm not here to be whatever right

02:03:15 Be examined in this way, but that's perfectly fair and reasonable right? Cuz I'm just some guy right?

02:03:19 There's no history, right?

02:03:22 So he would judge me as like, okay, this is like we just met right and

02:03:28 So he would move away because we have no history

02:03:31 We have no bond if I have a friend or someone and I'm asking them questions about their life or whatever that that may be

02:03:36 A different matter. We've got a friendship. I would it sort of expect them to

02:03:38 Go along with that process at least for a while

02:03:41 Just as if they start asking me questions about things that I would go along with it because we have a history

02:03:46 There's some sort of trust credibility built up and all of that, right?

02:03:49 But a stranger if I'm sort of in their face asking them a bunch of questions the stranger might be like, yeah

02:03:54 I don't I don't really know you. This is kind of inappropriate. I'm not comfortable having this conversation. Does that make sense?

02:03:59 Yeah

02:04:01 Yeah, so

02:04:03 If your mother is like I don't do uncomfortable questions

02:04:09 Then there's no bond and then that's fine. So then you would judge her according to objective moral standards

02:04:16 With no history no loyalty. Does that make sense?

02:04:20 Yeah, so then it would be then this a dinner party question, right or

02:04:26 I don't know maybe a buffet question or like if you're because the dinner party you at least know all the people or some of

02:04:32 The people so let's say you're on some cruise and you just get sat at a table with a bunch of other people which happens

02:04:37 in cruises and then there's just someone who's sitting across from you or sitting next to you and

02:04:42 It's your mom right

02:04:45 Except it's just some woman right and she tells you about her life and all of that

02:04:49 Then you would judge her according to that, right?

02:04:51 and so for me, it was like, okay, so I'm on a cruise and I get sit down next to someone like my mom and

02:04:56 My mom

02:05:00 Does her thing in terms of being who she is?

02:05:04 Would I ever want to have anything to do with this person? Would it be like? Oh, yeah. No, listen, let's uh,

02:05:08 Let's meet up for drinks later. I'd like to chat some more. I'd be like, oh my gosh

02:05:14 That was kind of a ride through crazy town. Um, I'm glad that dinner's over and I would actively avoid her in the future

02:05:19 Right, whereas I've actually been on cruises in the past and I've met people

02:05:26 We've actually become friends and I've enjoyed their company and and so on right sometimes

02:05:32 People and we'll

02:05:34 Play some sports together and maybe become acquaintances. Maybe become friends. So

02:05:38 You can meet strangers and really like them

02:05:41 But if you met your mother

02:05:43 You were just sat down randomly and you met the woman who happens to be your mother and you listen to her and chat it with

02:05:48 Her over the course of a dinner. Would you want to see her again?

02:05:51 No

02:05:55 Okay. Now the only reason you would see her again is if there's some kind of bond

02:05:58 some kind of history

02:06:01 right

02:06:02 now if she's saying

02:06:04 If you say anything to displease me

02:06:07 You are dead to me. Then she's saying that there's no bond. There's no history

02:06:12 She's treating you as a stranger. Like if some stranger started coming up and asking me a bunch of

02:06:16 Uncomfortable questions I'd be like no, I don't I don't know you I don't like we don't have a relationship

02:06:22 This is kind of weird and inappropriate and I don't want to do this and I'd move away from the situation

02:06:26 Right because we're just strangers

02:06:29 But if a friend or you know someone I'm really close to comes up and ask me a bunch of questions if the questions are

02:06:33 Uncomfortable I'd be like well, you know, we got a history and so I'll submit to this uncomfortable stuff because there's a bond

02:06:38 there's a history and so again, I don't mean to flog a dead horse here, but

02:06:42 To me. It's like when my own mother was like, well if you ask me anything, I don't want to hear

02:06:48 Then I'm just gonna you know fly into a rage and you know

02:06:53 Yell at you and throw things around the room and stuff like that be like, okay

02:06:57 okay, so I

02:06:59 can't be honest and

02:07:01 She has no obligation based upon a bond to go through anything uncomfortable

02:07:07 Okay, so if she doesn't have to go through anything uncomfortable

02:07:11 Right. What does that mean for me?

02:07:14 If my mother doesn't have to do anything that she doesn't want to she never have to sacrifice her own pleasure her own

02:07:21 Interests her own what she prefers in the moment if my mother

02:07:27 Won't do anything uncomfortable. Do you know what that means for me?

02:07:31 You have to be uncomfortable no

02:07:39 No, it means I don't have to do anything uncomfortable either

02:07:44 All right

02:07:47 Now if I don't have to do anything uncomfortable

02:07:50 and I don't feel like answering the phone when my mom calls or going to have lunch or giving her money or

02:07:56 Cleaning up her place. I don't like if my mother won't do anything uncomfortable

02:07:59 Then I don't have to do anything uncomfortable either

02:08:04 Yeah, it makes sense, yeah now if I don't have to do anything uncomfortable and I don't feel like talking to her I

02:08:15 don't have to I

02:08:20 Don't have to

02:08:22 Because she's said we're in the relationship. I just universalized her principles. So you won't do anything uncomfortable

02:08:30 You won't have a difficult conversation. So you're like my happiness. My pleasure is all that matters. It's like, okay

02:08:37 Well, then let's make that a principle of our relationship

02:08:40 so if I don't want to do anything uncomfortable, I

02:08:43 Won't because I mean I'm not gonna self-sacrifice when you won't do anything uncomfortable

02:08:50 That's called being exploited right? No, thanks. Yeah. No, thanks already had to do that when I was a kid

02:08:56 Don't have to do that as an adult. So that's why it's so important to talk with your parents, right?

02:08:59 It's like okay. Well if they don't want to do anything uncomfortable great. Neither do you and

02:09:03 Then if you don't feel like chatting with them

02:09:06 Right, ah

02:09:09 All you have to do is say well, what's my pleasure in the moment, right? Because that's all they're doing

02:09:15 And so, you know if my mom were to call or send an email or whatever it is, right

02:09:19 I don't think she's got email at least I've never gotten one

02:09:21 But if my mom were to call and say I really want you to call back, right?

02:09:24 I just sit there and say do I feel like it do I want to?

02:09:26 No

02:09:30 No, I don't. Okay, so I won't because that's the principle of the relationship. There's no bond

02:09:34 You don't have to do anything difficult because she's not

02:09:36 So you just look and say do I want to?

02:09:39 So make sense

02:09:41 Yeah, yeah. No, thank you. I'm feeling light

02:09:45 again

02:09:48 On that yeah

02:09:51 Because you can only have one kind of relationship in your life fundamentally at a personal level, right?

02:09:57 You can really at an economic level as well. You can only have one kind of relationship in your life

02:10:02 Yeah, and if you have these

02:10:10 Obligation duty self-sacrificing relationships and they're always one-sided. They're always one-sided

02:10:15 Like you can't have two people self-sacrificing themselves for the other right?

02:10:20 I mean it always has to be one person sacrificing in which case you sacrificing your truth your honesty your experience your

02:10:26 reality to your mother's

02:10:29 Immediate heathenistic preferences to avoid pain and pursue pleasure. Okay, so that's your relationship

02:10:34 And if you have that relationship in your life, it will tend to eclipse

02:10:38 All the other well really the other kind of relationships which is a

02:10:42 relationship a relationship based upon moral values and mutual benefit

02:10:46 Yeah, and

02:10:51 So the reason why you are concerned I think maybe about turning into your mother

02:10:58 Is

02:11:02 You still feel an obligation?

02:11:04 I feel bad for not being in contact and I understand that. I mean that that can certainly happen

02:11:08 But have you

02:11:13 Clearly defined to yourself

02:11:16 The level of dysfunction the level of destruction the level of sacrifice

02:11:20 For your mother to say I had no way of knowing your father was abusive is to curse you

02:11:26 With a complete lack of trust in yourself

02:11:29 men love

02:11:31 The future pair bonding marriage

02:11:33 It's to completely excavate your capacity to pair bond for the sake of protecting her own shitty choices

02:11:39 Like you are an Aztec sacrifice like beating heart cut out of your chest held up to the guards of vanity if that makes sense

02:11:47 Yeah, yeah

02:11:50 I thought I had

02:11:53 Thought I had but I don't think um

02:11:59 I'd fully done it properly and I

02:12:02 Was experiencing some guilt

02:12:06 About Ben and

02:12:10 My relationship with Tom as well

02:12:12 Well, are they both in touch with your parents?

02:12:17 Yeah, so Ben's the one obviously was

02:12:22 Constantly defending them. Well, I tried to get everyone to at least acknowledge

02:12:29 What we all know should be true, but

02:12:31 Right, right. Yeah, I think I just why is it your job to get your family to see the truth?

02:12:40 Yeah, I mean you didn't choose them it's not your relationship it's your mother's relationship to your mother's choice

02:12:49 You didn't choose your dad. He didn't choose your mother. You didn't choose your siblings

02:12:54 So why is it your job right why is it your job to get everyone to see the truth when you didn't even

02:12:59 form or make

02:13:01 any of these relationships

02:13:03 Yeah

02:13:12 And you can't get anyone to see the truth if

02:13:15 You don't see the truth that it's not your job to get them to see the truth

02:13:18 sorry to be like winding my own tail here, but

02:13:22 Right, if you're fundamentally laboring under a delusion, it's a bit

02:13:27 Disconcerting for you to think that you're the harbinger of truth

02:13:31 Yeah, yeah

02:13:36 Yeah, I see that it's not your job I

02:13:43 Mean, I think it's your job to live virtuously

02:13:46 in the present and it's your job to

02:13:51 Seek like-minded virtuous people. I think that's a reasonable job to have

02:13:54 But going back historically to a

02:14:00 multi-decade violent brutal dysfunctional false no bonding lying

02:14:05 betraying kind of relationship

02:14:08 How can that be a thing that's your responsibility

02:14:20 Yeah, maybe it's your job to teach your kids not to be smokers and to not smoke yourself and all of that

02:14:26 But how is it your job?

02:14:28 To get some uncle who's been a chain smoker

02:14:31 Yes, and doesn't even think there's a problem and anytime you bring up anything about smoking

02:14:36 He throws you out of the house. How the hell is that your job to fix?

02:14:47 Yeah

02:14:48 Giving myself an impossible putting myself in impossible situations. No, it's putting yourself in abusive situations. It's worse than impossible

02:14:55 I mean two sides of the same coin maybe but I

02:14:57 Mean your family at least in that role play with your mother has clearly said that they view the truth as evil

02:15:04 which means that

02:15:06 They are kind of demonic in that way, right? Because what a Satan called the father of lies, right?

02:15:11 And your mother is like if you tell me the truth

02:15:13 You're the opposite of me

02:15:17 Yeah, I

02:15:19 Mean if people clearly say

02:15:22 Don't tell me the truth. I

02:15:24 Don't want the truth. And if you try to tell me the truth, I will verbally abuse you right? I

02:15:31 Mean you're not obligated to bring strangers

02:15:35 Why on earth would you be obligated to people who torture you for trying to bring the truth to them?

02:15:39 That was my life in the cult though

02:15:45 Bringing truth to that's that's just another echo of the early life, right?

02:15:49 Yeah

02:15:52 Yeah, I

02:15:57 Mean you could say that it's a decent and positive thing to do to bring truth

02:16:01 To those who are interested in the truth and are willing to take on the truth and so on

02:16:05 but those who openly attack condemn and abuse you and

02:16:09 Being called a demon is one of the worst terms of verbal abuse

02:16:14 That could possibly be imagined like I'm literally was jaw-dropped when she said that

02:16:19 You couldn't see you like my hand went to my mouth like oh my gosh

02:16:22 Yeah, yeah, that's me

02:16:27 That's appalling and I'm I'm so sorry that you would ever hear

02:16:34 Anything like that even in a roleplay even in your own mind

02:16:39 From anyone who ever claims to love you

02:16:42 You're a demon is to me a completely relationship ending sentence

02:16:55 Like thank you. Thank you. You just clarified everything. Bye. Bye

02:17:00 How did you come back from that

02:17:06 So I did cut her off

02:17:08 For about a year after that

02:17:12 and

02:17:16 I started to feel guilty because my siblings were basically acting as mediators going back and forth between us and I used

02:17:24 as an excuse basically to just

02:17:26 Reopen the lines of communication. I'm sorry. Did she call you a demon?

02:17:34 Yeah, so this was when I said that I was gonna if they didn't stop hurting Tom

02:17:40 When Tom opened up to us and said that they were hitting him and badly abusing him

02:17:47 So I said if they didn't stop if she didn't do something about it if she didn't talk to his

02:17:54 Dad, I'd call social services

02:17:57 And yeah, that's when she called me a demon

02:18:00 and sorry, yeah, I

02:18:03 Got I cut her off

02:18:05 Went full no contact with her for a year

02:18:09 But yeah every time I tried to meet up or see Tom

02:18:16 Yeah, I just felt guilty because he was basically the going back and forth between us

02:18:28 And did you did your brother know that your mother called you a demon

02:18:33 Yeah, they did right and that your mother called you a demon mother trying to intervene in a situation of child abuse

02:18:42 Yes, okay

02:18:45 Why the fuck so Jerry was the oh, why help me understand this

02:18:50 how could they claim to love you and

02:18:55 Want to be in connection with and supporting someone who called you a demon for trying to protect a child from abuse

02:19:01 Yeah, Jerry was the only one who warned me not to get back in touch but I

02:19:08 Think that was the first and last time. I probably won't listen to him. Not probably that's the first and last time

02:19:15 I won't listen to him again

02:19:17 Right, I mean when you when you draw clear moral lines through being honest people fall on one side or the other and

02:19:25 and sadly and

02:19:26 In my experience as a whole

02:19:28 When you draw clear moral lines, most people choose evil

02:19:32 Yeah, the only reason that they can convince themselves that they're not evil is if no one else like no one else around them draws clear

02:19:40 moral lines

02:19:42 Most people they'll just choose evil

02:19:44 And

02:19:47 If you were abused in this kind of way by your mother and not sorry not if I know that you were I mean obviously

02:19:54 Right, so you were abused in this kind of way by your mother for trying to protect a child from abuse

02:19:59 and

02:20:01 Of course your mother never apologized. She never right retracted. She never oh my gosh, I can't believe I said that whatever I get

02:20:06 I'm so sorry. I'm gonna go that was nothing like that, right? I assume

02:20:09 No

02:20:12 Yeah, your brothers know that your mother is a child abuser who called you a demon for trying to protect the child

02:20:21 I

02:20:23 Told they need to know that's all I would need to know

02:20:26 In order to know which side I'm on I mean you can't get clearer than that, right

02:20:33 What does she have to do hold up what she had a baby for heaven's sakes this is all you need to know

02:20:39 Yeah

02:20:46 And people are certainly free to choose to support and enable evildoers, they're certainly free to choose and support evildoers

02:20:54 But if they want to they can fuck right off out of my life

02:20:58 Yeah, so I think yeah, that's why I ended up

02:21:15 Separating from Ben and yeah his wife as well because

02:21:18 Yeah, I just couldn't hear it anymore it was just constant lying and pretending like

02:21:29 And where does Jerry's none of it ever happened

02:21:33 Jerry warned me when I was making my excuses to reopen the lines of communication

02:21:41 Not to do it

02:21:45 You

02:21:47 But yeah, I did it anyway

02:21:49 Right, right, right because you still in the place of guilt not relief, right?

02:21:54 Yeah, you understand this is like the baby zebra saying I'm so guilty because that lion is hungry

02:22:01 Mmm, yeah. Yeah, not I'm so relieved. I got away

02:22:05 Yeah

02:22:14 It's

02:22:16 So essential my friend in life

02:22:19 To understand

02:22:22 If people don't listen

02:22:26 If people won't listen you have your control and therefore you have no obligation

02:22:35 Those of us who reject the use of violence, of course, right, I mean, how do you how do you

02:22:43 How do you how do you affect people? How do you influence them words or fists, right?

02:22:49 Language or violence. That's the only choices we have if people won't listen to language and of course, we reject the initiation of violence

02:22:58 So there's nothing nothing you can do. There's absolutely nothing you can do

02:23:03 There's zero you have no control you might as well be yelling at the moon to change its color become cheese, yeah

02:23:13 Right only I mean it's it's an action of craziness and I've recognized this sort of in myself it's an action of craziness

02:23:19 When people don't listen to think my words are gonna have any effect

02:23:23 Yeah

02:23:27 You have no control you've no effect

02:23:29 Yeah, is Jerry still in touch with Ben

02:23:36 No

02:23:40 Ben decided to cut or me and

02:23:44 Jerry off because we're too negative. We were in a victim mindset

02:23:50 Right. Okay, and he said me maybe we can

02:23:54 Get back in touch in three years time and I just said no

02:23:58 It's this it's at that time as well that your call about being liberated came out

02:24:04 sorry, the show about being liberated came out so I just

02:24:09 Yeah

02:24:10 Are you?

02:24:12 Still feeling guilty

02:24:15 I was

02:24:19 But I don't think I do anymore

02:24:24 Okay, there's nothing that I could say

02:24:27 If that's what?

02:24:29 They've chosen then yeah, but then why are you still carrying this weight? I can hear the weight in your voice

02:24:35 What's the weight

02:24:40 I'll be Tom

02:24:42 Yes, he's still in there right yeah, right

02:24:51 And when does he hit adulthood

02:24:56 He's 15 right now, right

02:25:01 And do you think that you not having a future?

02:25:08 Because you can't rescue

02:25:11 Him

02:25:14 Right. Do you think that you're not having a future? You're not getting married. You're not settling down. You're not falling in love

02:25:20 You know, do you think that helps him? Do you think that serves him? Do you think that?

02:25:23 That's going to help him down the road in the future

02:25:26 No, no, definitely not philosophy leads to paralysis philosophy leads to loneliness philosophy leads to isolation

02:25:35 Philosophy leads to endlessly chasing endless ghosts of an endless cliff

02:25:39 Don't you want to show him when he becomes an adult how amazing and wonderful and beautiful and positive

02:25:47 philosophy is how it can bring you love and connection and treasure and

02:25:52 Devotion and pair bonding and children like don't you want to be?

02:25:55 Something he can aspire towards don't you want to build the kind of life where when he becomes an adult he says

02:26:04 Dang, how did you get that?

02:26:06 Well, you want to circle around this crater get nowhere do nothing and then he gets to be an adult looks at you and says

02:26:14 Well, that's kind of sad

02:26:16 Yeah

02:26:25 You're not helping him

02:26:29 Paralyzing yourself and your life and your capacity for love you're not doing anything to it's not about him. You understand

02:26:34 Yeah, I mean the only rational thing to do is to build a life where when he becomes an adult he could see it and

02:26:43 Say well, that's really cool. I really want some of that

02:26:46 Yeah, that's what I'm working on right now

02:26:52 Okay, that's why but if you're able to get why are we talking? What's the barrier?

02:26:58 Yeah

02:27:00 Yeah, it was all this guilt and shame so

02:27:04 You have no control over someone else's child, right I

02:27:10 Guess you could call Child Protective Services and however that plays out. I don't know right? That's that's obviously some maybe something you talk about with a lawyer

02:27:19 Or some expert. I'm no expert in that field. Maybe you should do something like that

02:27:22 But you yourself have no control, right? You can't rush in and save him

02:27:26 You can't bunch it down the chimney and pull him to safety right? You have no control over the situation, right?

02:27:30 No, I don't

02:27:34 And you need to take a break from child abuse

02:27:41 Yeah, I really do you really do you need to take a break from helplessness and you need to take a break for being

02:27:50 Other under your mother's control and you wanting to save her kid is being under her control again

02:27:56 right, oh

02:27:58 Yeah

02:28:02 Yes, yeah, yeah, I see that you can't spend the rest of your life being seven, please I'm begging you don't

02:28:10 Shit I want I want

02:28:16 And if there's a new guy you like yeah open your heart be honest

02:28:25 Yeah, you know reserve your guilt for things that you choose

02:28:28 Reserve your guilt reserve your shame for things that you've chosen

02:28:32 You didn't choose your family. You didn't you you begged your mom not to have that kid, right?

02:28:37 This is not nothing that this is not nothing

02:28:46 And defining yourself by the choices other people make is kind of not to exist at all. Do you know what I mean?

02:28:52 Yeah

02:28:54 Yeah, like I have a shadow that moves around when I move the shadow is doesn't really doesn't exist. It's just a

02:29:00 The darkness cast by what I choose to do right? I choose to stand up the shadow stands up. I sit down it sits down

02:29:07 right I

02:29:09 Choose

02:29:11 To evaluate myself only by things that I've chosen

02:29:22 You didn't choose to have the pedophile you have to have the money you didn't choose to have the father you didn't choose

02:29:26 Your mother's second boyfriend. You didn't choose for her to have another kid. You didn't make any of these choices

02:29:31 So none of these choices reflect upon you at all

02:29:33 Now, of course your mother wants you to feel responsible and guilty and shameful so that she doesn't feel it

02:29:39 Like you're feeling all your mother's guilt and shame. Oh

02:29:42 God

02:29:46 No, but you see what I mean

02:29:48 Like nothing nothing gets away. Nothing escapes. Nothing gets away

02:29:52 Right, so your mother is feeling toxic guilt and shame

02:29:58 Which is why she can't be in a conversation that provokes it and it's a dutiful daughter as a poison container theory, right?

02:30:03 It's a dutiful daughter. What are you doing? Well, you're saying oh, no, I'll take on your conscience. I'll be your conscience

02:30:09 I'll take on all that guilt shame

02:30:11 Yeah, Jesus

02:30:17 You know when you separate from toxic relationships you understand particularly once you never chose you leave everything behind everything

02:30:25 Yeah, there are people in my life in my past who I don't think were great parents

02:30:37 Now I won't take on any ownership of that for them

02:30:42 I mean I talked to them about it, of course, right, but I don't have any control

02:30:45 I won't take any ownership and that's really out of compassion for the children

02:30:49 Right, if you don't talk if you don't take you're still in an unconfessed in unconscious conversation with your mom in my opinion

02:30:55 You take on none of that guilt shame and responsibility

02:30:57 That's the only chance your mom has to feel it and thereby change

02:31:01 Right, yeah, you reject all of that you leave it all behind

02:31:13 That's the only chance your mother has to actually feel her own feelings rather than you being her poison container

02:31:18 If your mother feels her own feelings, maybe she'll change as long as she smokes and you get cancer. Why would she quit? Oh

02:31:25 Yeah, that's a good analogy yeah

02:31:29 Yeah

02:31:37 But don't do it don't feel anything for other people any more than you can digest food for them or go to the bathroom for

02:31:43 them

02:31:45 Some female friend came up and said I really need to get pregnant

02:31:50 So you got to go have sex with a stranger you'd be like what now?

02:31:52 Yeah

02:31:55 Now if like with my mother right the only chance that she had to change was for me to stop pretending

02:32:06 Pretending that there was a relationship

02:32:08 Accumulate now my mother didn't change

02:32:12 So that means that there was absolutely nothing I could do like if me not feeling her feelings anymore me not lying to her me

02:32:18 Not falsifying my experience me having reasonable requests in the relationship

02:32:21 If none of that made her change then change was completely impossible

02:32:24 And I was trying to talk a lion into becoming a vegetarian while it was chewing on my leg

02:32:29 It's like sorry gonna keep my leg and step out of this mess

02:32:34 Yeah, yeah

02:32:36 Well and part of the pedophile thing too is to transfer the shame to the children

02:32:46 Everybody's sick and they vomit

02:32:54 Down the gullets of children. Yeah, I'm gonna get sick and they say relatively. Okay. Well as long as soon as you stop being that poison

02:33:00 Container that's the best thing you can do for the world for yourself, obviously

02:33:03 But for the world is now and of course the other people don't want you

02:33:06 To do that because then they start to feel their own moral horror and maybe that's too much for them

02:33:11 I don't know. I don't really I don't really care. I don't honestly don't care

02:33:14 I'm not taking any ownership for things. I never chose

02:33:17 zero

02:33:20 Because that's the kind I mean the in my view the best thing you can do

02:33:23 For the 15 year old the best thing you could do

02:33:27 Stop feeling any guilt any shame stop trying to change things. You can't change stop trying to have control over

02:33:31 Things you have no control over live rationally with the limitations of reason have a great life yourself

02:33:38 It's the best thing you can do for him by far and there's not even a close second. Everything else to me is dysfunctional

02:33:44 Yeah, yeah and what you're doing is you're saying hey kid

02:33:50 Virtue makes you helpless. It traps you in shame and guilt

02:33:55 You can't have a life. You can't get married. You can't have kids and you just feel shitty about everything

02:34:00 Hey, you want to come and be virtuous?

02:34:03 Yeah, then you're like the person selling the diet book, right yeah

02:34:15 Yeah

02:34:19 No, that's that's clear to me now, yeah

02:34:24 I

02:34:26 Well, right, yeah, that's I mean and listen if it's any consolation

02:34:31 I mean I have heard many times and I sympathize and really sympathize

02:34:34 You know

02:34:35 The my youngest sibling is still stuck there and things are terrible and things are bad I get it and I'm not saying that's an easy

02:34:40 thing and I I appreciate respect and and

02:34:43 Treasure you for your sensitivity in this matter. Like it's a beautiful thing. It really is a beautiful thing

02:34:52 But

02:34:54 Instead of trying to

02:34:56 Fix something you never broke. How about you build something you?

02:34:59 You don't break right instead of trying to fix some broken kid that you have no control over

02:35:03 How about you get married and have your own kids?

02:35:05 and

02:35:07 Don't break them. Yes

02:35:09 Yes

02:35:11 Yeah, that's clear yes, thank you

02:35:14 It's like there's a there's a bridge in a war that's currently being shelved and you're like I gotta go fix that bridge

02:35:19 It's like no just go to a peaceful country and build a bridge. Oh

02:35:22 You're just gonna get blown up at the bridge ain't gonna get fixed anyway

02:35:26 Great

02:35:30 Sorry, I don't mean to overdo the analogies here, but it's just popping into my head. Well, no, they're great. They're great. Thank you

02:35:37 Yeah, I do feel

02:35:40 Yeah, I'm basically that's what I'm basically doing pretty much yeah

02:35:45 And it's gonna be useless to him when he becomes an adult and has to

02:35:49 compare people's lives and look

02:35:52 Yeah, I press particularly when you're young you get drawn to that which appears to be the most successful and you just have to show

02:35:59 That I think right

02:36:01 Yes

02:36:03 Well, that's most of what I wanted to get across I know it's a lot later for you than it is for me

02:36:07 Is there anything else you wanted to say right here at the end?

02:36:12 No, thank you so much stuff. I knew there was a reason why I I needed to do this and yeah, I feel

02:36:19 I'm not gonna say everything's completely gonna say I'll definitely complete what I need to do in therapy and stuff

02:36:27 but you've just I

02:36:29 Feel like you've put me on a speed wrap

02:36:32 Excellent excellent. Okay. Well, listen, will you keep me posted about how things are going? I

02:36:39 Certainly will yes. Thank you. I hope you remember my friend my sister in flesh

02:36:44 I'm incredibly sorry for all that you had to suffer and everything that you had to go through and yes, I can say

02:36:50 Ah, yes, but it is the forge that makes us stronger

02:36:52 It's like no it sucks and I'm really really sorry for all of that

02:36:55 And I just wanted to not have that escape in the general wash of endless analogies that just my genuine and deep and heartfelt sympathy

02:37:02 for everything you went through and my intense admiration for your

02:37:07 pursuit of philosophy and virtue and reason in the face of all of those obstacles is nothing short of

02:37:12 Incredible and I hope that you wear that proudly for the rest of your life

02:37:16 Alright, I will and I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. All right. Take care and I look forward to more shows. Thank you

02:37:25 Bye

02:37:26 Bye

My Stepmother Made Panty-Soup to Get a Man! Call-In

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