FDR 57, ALONE AND CHILDLESS! Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

In this episode, a caller opens up about her challenging childhood, marked by emotional neglect and manipulation in a dysfunctional household. Despite the darkness, she found solace in a friend's family and horses, but also faced sexual abuse and bullying, shedding light on the lack of support during my teenage years. The host responds with empathy, noting societal failures in protecting children and the psychological toll of bullying. The conversation delves into seeking safety and support, my journey through relationships, regrets, loneliness, and navigating complex family dynamics. We discuss forgiveness, trauma, and evolving perspectives, as well as the transformative power of introspection and growth in shaping one's life trajectory.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00Hello. Good morning. How are you doing? Good morning. I'm okay. How are you? I'm well. I'm

00:00:05well. I'm well. Well, listen, this is a very interesting and exciting topic. I'm very glad

00:00:10that you're taking your magnificent and noble swing at it. So, yeah. Well, thank you for that.

00:00:17Do you want to start with the, just read the message or do you want to just jawbone it?

00:00:22What's your pleasure? Well, it got kind of broken up when I was trying to send you the message in

00:00:27the first place. Normally, what I do is I type it out and then I cut and paste it,

00:00:32but I didn't do that and I kind of kept getting kicked out of the site. So,

00:00:35it's a little disconnected, I think. Okay. Well, then we can just, you can

00:00:39just tell me. Tell me your thoughts. Just jump right in? You bet. I'm all ears.

00:00:45I don't know. Childhood's probably the best place to start. Did you have an age in mind

00:00:49that you want me to start at? Early as you can get. Early as you can claw back to.

00:00:55Okay. Well, I can claw back quite a ways. I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional household,

00:01:01I would say. A little bit of background. My mom was married twice, the second time to my dad.

00:01:12The first husband she had was abusive and beat her. So, she left him when my brother

00:01:18was seven years old. And then she took up with my dad when I was about a year old.

00:01:24But the little catch in there is that he wasn't my real dad. There was another man in there

00:01:30that she was supposed to move in with. And the day that I was in the hospital being born,

00:01:37he left her for another woman. That's the story I got.

00:01:42So, sorry, just if we can go over that again. So, did your father know he wasn't the father?

00:01:52Yes. Yeah. He had been trying to date her before she had met my birth father.

00:01:58Okay. But she took up with my birth father instead.

00:02:03Okay. Got it. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So, when I was just over a year old, she ended up

00:02:12marrying my dad. And I grew up until I was seven years old thinking that he was my dad.

00:02:20Right. Well, not thinking. I mean, you were told that, I assume.

00:02:24Yeah, I was told that.

00:02:25I just didn't make that up out of whole cloth, right?

00:02:27Yeah. No, no. But what I found confusing was he was, you know, how little kids,

00:02:33they need affection and stuff. And I would go up and try to give him a kiss and a hug,

00:02:37and he'd always push me away. So, it was confusing, but he always tucked me in every night.

00:02:45And my mother, I just thought she hated me from the time as far back as I can remember. She used

00:02:49to just look at me like kids should be seen and not heard, and what do you want? And she was not

00:02:55affectionate at all.

00:02:56Was that because she blamed you for problems with your stepdad?

00:03:02I don't think so.

00:03:05Did you remind her of the cat who impregnated her and then wouldn't stick around, or she had to

00:03:10settle for a second best, or?

00:03:11Yes. Apparently, I look just like him.

00:03:12Okay.

00:03:12Yeah. I look just like him.

00:03:14Oh, that's terrible. That's terrible.

00:03:17And she used to say that to me when I got older.

00:03:20Okay. So, what would she say?

00:03:22She would say, you look just like your father, and you disgust me, and stuff like that.

00:03:28Oh, so she was emotionally completely retarded and primitive and halfway to hairy, right?

00:03:37Yeah, absolutely. For sure, she was. And she told me from the time I was probably around 10 or 11

00:03:45about her childhood and how horrific it was and the things that had happened to her.

00:03:50And what did happen?

00:03:51What did happen to her?

00:03:53Well, she was raised in a home with a mother who acted like she hated her,

00:03:59with five other siblings, and a drunken father who was a high-functioning alcoholic. He was

00:04:04well-known in the community, and yeah, he was in good standing. He was successful, but

00:04:11a bad alcoholic and a diabetic, and he died when I was two, I think.

00:04:16But she was molested by her brother as well.

00:04:18Oh, gosh.

00:04:19Yeah. So, she had a pretty horrific childhood.

00:04:23Well, or alternatively, she knows exactly how painful all this stuff is,

00:04:26so the last thing she'd want to do is re-inflict it.

00:04:29You would think.

00:04:30Yeah. Except, except, doesn't seem to be the case a lot of times.

00:04:35Yeah, for sure.

00:04:36Okay. So, did you ever meet your birth dad?

00:04:43Yeah.

00:04:44Oh, dear.

00:04:45That's a fun story. So, when I was seven years old, and I remember I was seven,

00:04:51and I remember exactly where we were on the highway heading into town, and she told me,

00:04:57she was telling me the story about how my dad, that I thought was my dad, wasn't my real dad,

00:05:02and that we were on our way to meet my real dad.

00:05:05Holy crap.

00:05:07Yeah. And so, we got to the house of his parents, where we were meeting.

00:05:12How much time did you actually have to, was it a 19-hour drive, or how much time did you actually

00:05:17have to process this? Oh, my gosh. So, that's a straight-up sabotage, right?

00:05:22Yeah.

00:05:22So, that you're going to be so upset that he's not really going to connect with you, and yeah, okay.

00:05:28Well, I wasn't really allowed to have any feelings about that, because what I had been taught from a

00:05:35young age was that you were to obey adults at all times, and even if an adult, a friend of hers,

00:05:42come up and wanted to give me a hug or something, that I didn't get to claim any space. Like,

00:05:46I just had to be obedient and be willing and kind. Except that I wasn't allowed to

00:05:55say, you know what, that makes me uncomfortable. But when we got to the house, his parents were

00:06:03there, and the father had, I guess, gone drunk the night before to bed, and he stumbled out of

00:06:11the bedroom half-naked at about 10 o'clock in the morning. Sorry, who did? The birth father's

00:06:19father. We were at the grandparent, my first grandparent's house, that's where the meeting

00:06:24was to take place. Wow, okay.

00:06:27So, my mom was a drinker, and so, she proceeded to sit there with the grandmother and get

00:06:34totally annihilated before the birth father waltzed in in the afternoon.

00:06:39Oh, gosh.

00:06:41And then, of course, he came up to me and gave me a, you know, trying to embrace me and stuff,

00:06:45and I just obediently, like, I wasn't allowed to say, I'm not okay with any of this.

00:06:51Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:06:52Just had to obey, right?

00:06:54Right.

00:06:55And it was just utterly bizarre to me,

00:06:59like, the whole thing, and I didn't know what to do with myself. It was not a very good day.

00:07:05Right. Oh, it's terrible.

00:07:07Anyway, yeah, so, there were subsequent meetings after that, and what my mom told me later was

00:07:17that she was, because he had abandoned her the day that I was born and moved in with another woman,

00:07:23she was going to get her revenge on him. So, what she did was, she used me to get to him

00:07:31and promised him that they would, she was going to leave my dad and get together with him,

00:07:37and that we'd live as a family, and so, he left the woman that he was with,

00:07:41got a house and got everything in place.

00:07:43Oh, then she dumped him.

00:07:44Yes.

00:07:46Nice. That's that mafioso style. Yeah, yeah.

00:07:50Yeah, she's a piece of work. But before this had happened, there was an incident

00:07:56with my dad, who I thought was my dad, like, I won't even call the other guy my dad,

00:08:02he's birth father from donor or whatever. But my dad, I noticed him

00:08:08sitting in the living room one morning when I got up, when all this was going on, and he was

00:08:15crying. I'd never seen him cry before. And for the first time, he got up and he came to me and

00:08:22hugged me and told me how afraid he was that he was going to lose us. And I made up my mind right

00:08:27there that I was never going to go back and see the birth father again, even if it meant a beating,

00:08:32or, you know, it just broke my heart. It was too much.

00:08:39Tell me what you mean, I mean, that's obviously a little suspect,

00:08:44if he's not throwing any particular affection to you before.

00:08:48And then what do you think was going on for him in that moment?

00:08:52I don't know, he would never talk about it. But it just, to me, I just felt like I was being

00:09:00disloyal. Right. Like, like,

00:09:05recruited in the battle against the parents on his side, right?

00:09:09Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I, I didn't understand it back then. I was just trying

00:09:13to make the best sense of it. I could, you know. Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:09:16And it always stayed with me. But anyway, after that, he started being a lot more affectionate

00:09:25with me. When, when he finally learned of the plan.

00:09:29Well, you had utility to him now, right?

00:09:32Yeah.

00:09:33Yeah. Which is to be an ally in the chess moves or checkers moves against your mom.

00:09:37Yeah. And he was like, he was super passive, like, you know, it didn't matter what she did.

00:09:43You know, he, his first loyalty was still always to her. And he just went along with everything.

00:09:49And if anybody, you know, as I got older, and I started to act out, which I did, big time.

00:09:59You know, he, it didn't, I could, you know, I could express displeasure about other things

00:10:05and other people around him. And that was okay. But if I said anything about my mother,

00:10:10that wasn't allowed at all.

00:10:11Well, he also, how old were you when your mom did this move of like,

00:10:17wrecking the other guy?

00:10:19Seven.

00:10:20Right. So I would imagine that your dad was concerned that if you,

00:10:27if he badmouthed your mom in any way, that you might be sent as a spy.

00:10:31Yeah, maybe. I never thought of it that way.

00:10:34Like, she's saying, oh, yeah, see if you can get him to say something bad.

00:10:37And then you come and, and, yeah, well, you know how it plays. Then you go back to your mom and,

00:10:43and then she's like, I can't believe you said this. Like, you know, like, it's a trap.

00:10:46Yeah.

00:10:47It could be, I mean, you live pretty paranoid when you're with

00:10:50aggressive people, right? And manipulative people in particular.

00:10:53Oh, totally.

00:10:54And after he, so how did it play out that your mom

00:10:57was promising your biological dad to be with him, and then he left the woman and then she left him?

00:11:02And like, how did that play out with your dad?

00:11:07With my, with my, yeah, well, I don't really know, because I wasn't.

00:11:11You're seven, yeah, yeah.

00:11:12Yeah. And he didn't say, and I didn't, I mean, she'd try to fight with him all the time anyway,

00:11:18but I mean, it went as far as her sleeping in hotel rooms with the bird,

00:11:26with the birth father, with me in the room.

00:11:29Oh, gosh. Now by sleeping, you also mean having sex, right?

00:11:34I would assume so, but I just pulled the covers over my head and, you know,

00:11:36hid away. And then a couple of times she made him take me on his own.

00:11:42And he took me to a hockey game one time in our town. And that just, the whole thing just felt

00:11:48so disloyal and not right to me. And I just, you know, I didn't know this person.

00:11:52Right.

00:11:53You know, and I mean, my environment wasn't very stable anyway. So it's not like I felt like I was

00:12:01secure or safe anywhere, really. I just went along with it because I guess I figured that was the

00:12:06best way to keep myself safe.

00:12:07Well, I mean, you have no choice. I mean,

00:12:11what are you going to do, not go along with it? I mean, you're going to get beaten,

00:12:13abandoned, thrown into an orphanage, like, there's no choice there, right?

00:12:19Yeah, for sure. And I mean, like, later on, when I started really acting out and

00:12:23becoming the rebellious teenager, she would threaten to send me to him.

00:12:27Right.

00:12:28All the time.

00:12:30You were better off with the guy you called dad than your bio dad, right? I mean,

00:12:34Oh, totally, because, yeah, because, you know, even though all this stuff was going on,

00:12:40one thing about it was, like, my dad, and he told me a lot later on, like he said,

00:12:45mom would drive with me drunk in the car all the time. And sometimes in the winter,

00:12:49and he would always lay awake waiting for her to get home. And she'd often forget me in the car.

00:12:54And you said, I go out and you'd be there in your car seat and she'd be passed out in the house.

00:12:59Yeah.

00:12:59And this was your mom?

00:13:01Yeah.

00:13:02So she was a heavy drinker too?

00:13:04Yeah. And she took me places with her all the time when she was drunk. And I remember falling

00:13:09asleep behind couches and, you know, wherever I could lay my head down.

00:13:14Wow.

00:13:15Yeah. There were times when, you know, there was this one time I remember there was a guy with,

00:13:20that she was, there was a gang in the mall drinking together. And he had a glass eye. I had

00:13:26no idea there was such a thing. And he took it out in the palm of his hand and shoved it at me and

00:13:31said, I got my eye out for you. And it scared the crap out of me. Like, I never forgot it.

00:13:38But stuff like that would happen all the time.

00:13:40So like, in a sexual way, you mean?

00:13:43No, I don't think so. Cause there was people around, but

00:13:47no, he just freaked me out. He could remove his eye.

00:13:51Oh, I see. I see. Okay.

00:13:54Hey, isn't this funny? I'm traumatizing this kid.

00:13:57Yeah. I think he was trying to, I think he was trying to crack a joke, but

00:14:01I didn't find it funny at all. It scared the crap out of me. I didn't realize you

00:14:04could take your eye out like that.

00:14:06Yeah. No, I mean, you're basically on a pirate ship at this point.

00:14:10Wow.

00:14:11Okay.

00:14:12Yeah. I mean, it's not funny, but...

00:14:15And I assume that there was like, there's no people of any quality

00:14:19in this environment, right? There's just no normal, healthy, happy, decent people,

00:14:24or were there a few floating around?

00:14:27My childhood best friend, her parents were Christians and they were farmers.

00:14:33And they lived a very short distance from my house cause I was raised out in the country.

00:14:38And I think that they knew what was going on. I mean, they had to know what the reputation was

00:14:43and they would let me stay over there as often as I wanted to. And they fed me a lot. And I

00:14:50just loved being over there because there was such a sense of routine and safety that I didn't

00:14:56have at home. And I think that that was a lot of the reason why they were trying to give me

00:15:02some sort of refuge without getting directly involved.

00:15:07Well, that's good. That probably saved your bacon quite a bit.

00:15:11So what happened in your teenage years?

00:15:14Well, we moved to a different property and we moved up with my dad's parents. So we lived with

00:15:22them for a little while while they were building a house on the lake that they were on. And they

00:15:30had a farm and I was quite close to my grandfather, not as much my grandmother, but I was quite close

00:15:36to him on my dad's side until I got a little bit older and a little more developed and then he

00:15:44started touching. But up until that point, that was one of my favorite places to be because

00:15:52I've always been a horse lover and he always kept a small herd of horses around. And that

00:15:56was like our bond. He'd talk about horses and taught me so much about them. And I would just

00:16:04sit there for hours listening to his stories. So I felt really safe and bonded to him in particular.

00:16:12And then I found out later how safe I was when I started getting a little older and

00:16:17started developing. And then he started getting free with his hands. So that wrecked that bond.

00:16:23And how far did all that go?

00:16:27Just touching. And he would even do it when there was people around. He'd grab me by the

00:16:31breasts and stuff all the time and by the rear end. And people had to have seen.

00:16:39Like they had to have. And I'd slap his hands away and kind of laugh it off, you know?

00:16:45Because he'd get a big grin on his face like, you know, almost like he couldn't help himself.

00:16:54Yeah, I don't even know.

00:16:55Did it come with the usual creepy comments as well?

00:16:59No.

00:17:00Oh, so just not verbal.

00:17:01I better recall.

00:17:02Right, right. Okay.

00:17:03Yeah, like he'd go, you know, I'd go, come here and give your grandpa a hug and a kiss,

00:17:07you know, because I hadn't seen him in a while. And then he'd reach out just before I got to him

00:17:11and he'd grab me. And then he'd sit me on his lap. And then, you know, his other hand was

00:17:18doing things while I was sitting there in front of, you know, a family gathering.

00:17:23Right.

00:17:24And I was just so embarrassed by it. I didn't really know what to do. And I knew

00:17:29if I knew darn right well, if I told my mom, that she'd probably blow his head off. And if I told my

00:17:35dad, they had a very strong relationship. So if I told my dad the same thing would happen. So I

00:17:39told nobody. And I knew my grandmother wouldn't believe me. Nobody would believe me. They'd just

00:17:43say, well, you know, she's not really of this family. She's just causing trouble because I

00:17:47already had a reputation by then of being a troublemaker because I acted out so much.

00:17:52Now, sorry. So this is the same. I'm sorry if I got this wrong,

00:17:55but this is the same man who molested your mother?

00:17:59No. No, her brother molested her.

00:18:01Oh, brother molested her. Okay. Got it. Got it.

00:18:03Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

00:18:04No, no. You made that clear. Sorry. I remember now.

00:18:07Oh, did I?

00:18:08Yeah. No, you were clear about that. That was my, I'm trying to

00:18:11build this tree of horror in my head.

00:18:14I know. It's just all over the place. Yeah. And I'm sorry if I'm jumping around.

00:18:18No, no. You're doing great. There's nothing wrong. I mean, there's nothing wrong with

00:18:23the form of what you're saying. The content is vile, but that's not your fault. And I'm

00:18:27glad you're telling me because that's where you're coming from. So, yeah. So, I mean,

00:18:33you have a strong sense, of course, of where your allies are. All kids need to know

00:18:39where our allies are, right? Is anyone protecting us? Will anyone believe us? We all need to have

00:18:44a very strong and deep sense of that, for sure. I mean-

00:18:47I had nobody.

00:18:48Yeah. You had nobody, right? Yeah.

00:18:50Yeah. And I was so afraid. I was so afraid if I told somebody that there would be,

00:18:56somebody would be going to jail for, I mean, of course, it was okay for mom to torture me,

00:19:02but if anybody else laid a hand on me, that was a different story, right?

00:19:05Right.

00:19:06And I knew it would destroy my dad, and I knew nobody would believe me, and the rest of the

00:19:12family, and it would just create this complete, total blow-up of devastation. And I felt unsafe

00:19:18enough, I didn't want to make things worse. So, I think I, you know, I just kind of,

00:19:26just, and I, you know, I became quite a loner as a result, like, through high school. I didn't

00:19:31really have any close friends or anything, and it wasn't safe to bring anybody home anyway.

00:19:35No, no, no, no, I get that. Sorry, but what happened with your friend who had the Christian

00:19:40farming family?

00:19:43They kind of, when we got into high school and stuff, she was a year younger than me, so

00:19:48we went to school in different locations, like from elementary to intermediate school,

00:19:54and we just lost touch with each other, because I had moved away, and I wasn't close by anymore.

00:19:59And I think by that point, I was acting out so much, I don't think her family really wanted

00:20:04me around.

00:20:06Well, but the two might have been related. If you'd had a more stable family around,

00:20:09then maybe with more protection, because they'd let you sleep over, and you'd get some relief

00:20:13from the horrors, maybe the acting out would have been less.

00:20:15Yeah, and I never acted out with people that were nice to me.

00:20:19Sure, sure.

00:20:20You know, if people were nice to me, I'd just lap it up, you know, like, and I was slavishly

00:20:27full of gratitude towards people like that.

00:20:30Oh, yeah.

00:20:30I made a couple of teachers in school, like, even the principal in my school, like, he,

00:20:35I don't know, I'll never forget him. He had such an instinct for the kids in the school,

00:20:42like, my desk, I was so bad, Steph, that my desk was actually permanently residing behind his for

00:20:49almost the entire fourth grade, and he would, as pun, you know, so-called punishment,

00:20:56he would give me book reports to do, because I just, I just, I lapped up books like you

00:21:02wouldn't believe.

00:21:02Yeah, yeah.

00:21:03And he just, he just kind of, I don't know, he just had an instinct for that, and so,

00:21:08he was looking for a way, I think, to give me an outlet or something to,

00:21:13you know, or a reprieve, I guess.

00:21:14Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:21:15And then the next, he left, and the next principal we had after that used to use the strap on us, so.

00:21:21Now, so hang on, so you were talking about how you acted out as a teenager,

00:21:24but grade four is long before that, and so when you said you were so bad,

00:21:27and I wouldn't characterize it that way, but when you said you were so bad in grade four,

00:21:32what sort of behaviors are you talking about?

00:21:35Um, I just didn't get along with the other kids, I would act out towards the teacher,

00:21:40like we had this one teacher who was, everybody loved her, and for some reason,

00:21:46I just couldn't stand her, because she was just so, so nice, so much so that the kids would all,

00:21:52you know, give her a hug and a kiss goodbye, like back when that sort of thing was allowed,

00:21:56they just loved her, like they just, you know, wanted to hold her hand and be near her all the

00:22:00time, and I just couldn't stand her, and she couldn't stand me, I mean, I could,

00:22:05I just picked right up on that, and she called my mother crying because I outstared her.

00:22:12Okay, that's not terribly bad, not like you set fire to an orphanage or something,

00:22:17you stared at a teacher.

00:22:17No, but I'd overturn things in the classroom, you know, like, because,

00:22:21you know, it was just, I was so angry, I, you know, I get frustrated and I throw things, and,

00:22:26you know, and then I get sent to the principal's office, and,

00:22:29you know, he, after a while, he'd send me back, and then, but the other kids were kind of picking

00:22:33on me too, I was really small, so I was a really easy target, and a couple of the bigger kids

00:22:40started picking on me, and then I would get to the point where it would boil over, and I'd

00:22:45throw things, and I had long nails, and I learned how to use them, so if the kids were pushing me

00:22:51around, then they'd get it right across the face, you know, for their troubles.

00:22:55So, let me go out on a limb here and guess that nobody ever asked you what was going on at home.

00:23:01No.

00:23:02Right.

00:23:04I wouldn't have told them anyway, probably.

00:23:06Well, it depends. It depends on whether you would feel that there was a security,

00:23:15and a strength, and an option to improve things, and, you know, the reason why,

00:23:21I don't know, I don't want to speak for you, obviously, but I'm going to guess,

00:23:24tell me if I'm wrong, of course, but I'm going to guess that, because the question is, like,

00:23:27why were you angry at school? I mean, the school weren't doing nearly as much harm to you

00:23:36as your family, right?

00:23:39I think I was.

00:23:40Sorry, go ahead.

00:23:41Sorry. I think maybe it was just, you know, the bullying from the other kids.

00:23:47Right, but then why wouldn't you get physically angry at the other kids? Because, I mean,

00:23:53we all know this, right? Like, I mean, if the bully chases you, you turn and punch them,

00:23:56they don't chase you as much, right? And if you're willing to use violence at school,

00:24:00like throwing things, turning over things, why not use it against the bullies? Now, of course,

00:24:03the fear is that the bullies will escalate, but that fear gets transferred to the adults,

00:24:11because the adults, like, it's the adults who are taking you into their environment,

00:24:16and they damn well should be protecting you, right? You weren't expecting protection from

00:24:22home, which I understand, and I understand also that it's really tough for the parents.

00:24:29Sorry, it's really tough for the teachers and the principals to protect you at home,

00:24:32because they're not there. But when you're in their house, so to speak,

00:24:38then they owe you protection.

00:24:42Or at least they owe you not blaming you for the abuse, for the effects of the abuse you're

00:24:47suffering at home. And if they can't protect you against the bullies, and they say that you're bad

00:24:55for the effects of being abused at home, then they're terrible people. And the problem with

00:25:01that is it takes away hope, because it's like, okay, my family is screwed, and they're nasty,

00:25:07and vicious, and mean, and like, whatever. So my family's a mess. But the problem with school is

00:25:13it takes away some hope that you have that you can get out of your family and get into a sane

00:25:17environment. Because they don't recognize the abuse, they don't do anything about the abuse,

00:25:22and they just abuse you further, by punishing you for the effects of the abuse you have no control

00:25:27over at home. So this is how you recognize that your family operates within an entire social

00:25:36structure that enables the abuse. So you get abused at home, you go to school, you don't start,

00:25:46yes, you say you're nice to people who are nice to you, I guess with the exception of this one

00:25:49female teacher. But you go out of home, and you go out into, because you're at home, you're like,

00:25:57how on earth are they getting away with this? Because all we do is we see shows

00:26:02on TV, and where the cops do this, and the various law enforcement agencies, and the courts,

00:26:08and everyone's a hero, and everyone does the right thing, and everyone's good, and everyone

00:26:12protects, and oh, the children, we have to help the children. And if there are children in a raft

00:26:17going down the river, people dive in to protect it, to rescue the children. Women and children

00:26:22first in the Titanic, we grow up with society saying, man, do we ever live? We live to protect

00:26:29children, we live to be moral heroes, and you've got a social contract that society protects you,

00:26:34and in return, you obey the rules of society, and there's all of this. And then we're like,

00:26:38okay, but I'm being abused. Like, what the hell? And so then we go out into society,

00:26:44in the first society we generally go to, and we can understand that extended families probably

00:26:48as screwed up as our family of origin, like a direct family, but then we go out into the world,

00:26:53we go out into the school, and slowly it begins to dawn on us that all of society's

00:27:00self-congratulatory nonsense about how brave they are, and how much there's a social contract,

00:27:05and how law enforcement is there to protect the children, and you know, Officer Bob, and

00:27:09you know, like, they used to show up in kids' shows where the policeman, I say, kids, you know,

00:27:14don't do this, and you've got to do that, and you've got to be careful about the other, and

00:27:18it's all about, and then you go to school, and you're like, oh, this is why my parents are so

00:27:26confident to do what they do, because society doesn't protect us at all. It's all just a bunch

00:27:33of propagandistic lies. It has about as much truth as Soviet projections of grain surpluses

00:27:39during a family. And so we get mad at the school, because it's like, oh, so my family understands

00:27:46society, and that's why they do that, because I couldn't figure it out when I was a little kid.

00:27:50Like, I couldn't feel like my mom's yelling at me, and hitting me, and all, screaming all over

00:27:53the place. Like, we're not in the middle of nowhere. Like, we're right in the middle of an

00:27:57apartment building with paper-thin walls. And I'm going from my mother, I would go and visit my

00:28:04aunts, and my dad, and extended family, and I had cousins, and I had friends, and I went to school,

00:28:11and I went to, like, a whole bunch of different schools. I went to kindergarten in one place,

00:28:15I went to primary school in another place, I went to boarding school, I went to the upper grades

00:28:24in another place, then I went to school in Whitby, then I went to school in Toronto. Like,

00:28:29I was all over the place, and everywhere I went, it was the same story.

00:28:33Same story, yeah.

00:28:34Yeah, you are blamed as a child for the effects of being abused.

00:28:39Pretty much.

00:28:40Right?

00:28:41I mean, the whole peaceful parenting thing made so much sense to me.

00:28:45I was listening to it, because you just explained that real well.

00:28:49So, my mother, and this was the embarrassing thing, right? I consider myself a moralist,

00:28:56but my mother understood society way better than I did, because I kept waiting for a cavalry

00:29:01that never came. And finally, when I began to speak out against child abuse publicly,

00:29:07and in an effective manner, oh, finally, the cavalry showed up.

00:29:12What a relief. And then they attacked me.

00:29:16Yeah.

00:29:16I don't get a lot, but it's like, we're here to save you. It says the cavalry's right,

00:29:23oh, we're here to save you, and it turns out they're talking to the criminals, not you.

00:29:30Yeah.

00:29:32Yep.

00:29:33You're being hacked apart by the Aztec psychos, the cavalry shows up and joins in with the Aztec

00:29:40psychos. And you're like, oh, so it's just, we'll be living in hell at the moment, right?

00:29:46So, I think one of the reasons you'd be, sorry, again, I don't mean to lay my experience on yours,

00:29:50but I think one of the reasons you'd get mad at school is, so you're here to teach me how to be

00:29:55good, and you won't even protect me from bullies? What do you know about being good? You know

00:30:00nothing about it. I mean, I'm literally being attacked and abused in your house, and then

00:30:06you're lecturing me about responsibility, and punctuality, and don't take, and don't use force,

00:30:13and don't this, and do obey the rules, and the law is good. And it's like, you guys can't even

00:30:18protect a kid, and you're lecturing me about virtue? Like, what are you talking about?

00:30:23That makes sense to me. Makes a lot of sense to me, the way you put it,

00:30:27that I would be behaving the way that I was.

00:30:30I'm not saying you're a criminal, but fundamentally, of course, criminals...

00:30:33Oh, that's how you learn it, right?

00:30:35They don't respect the law. Well, why don't they respect the law? Why don't they respect

00:30:39the social contract? Because the social contract didn't do squat to protect them. In fact,

00:30:43the social contract dragged them into an environment where they got bullied, cold school,

00:30:48where they were lectured on morality, and almost nothing drives people more crazy and aggressive

00:30:52than moral hypocrisy, because you can't reason with it, and it's beyond hope. It removes your

00:30:57hope, and when you remove people's hope, they get aggressive, right? So, yeah, it's a horrible

00:31:04situation. So, that's when you said, well, my principal, when I was bad, my principal put my

00:31:10chair behind his or in front of his desk, and it's like, well, you weren't bad, you were just

00:31:13protesting. Yeah, I think he kind of got that, because he was never like... I was like, if this

00:31:20is punishment, this is heaven, because I love to read and stuff, and I think maybe that was his way

00:31:25of trying to protect me, because back then, you didn't involve yourself in other people's business

00:31:31either. Do you know what I mean? Oh, that's still the case. Yeah, that's still the case.

00:31:34Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. There's even more bystanders now, but I think that that was just his

00:31:40small way of trying to give me relief from what was going on in the classroom. You know, it's so

00:31:46funny, because society is all up in your business, right? You've got to pay these taxes, and you've

00:31:52got to obey these 10,000 regulations, and you've got to have this piece of paperwork, and you've

00:31:56got to get this license, and society's all up in your business telling you what to do,

00:32:02you know, 19 hours out of 20, but then suddenly, when it comes to abusive families, everybody takes

00:32:09a giant step back, well, we don't want to get involved. It's like, hey, if you don't want to

00:32:13get involved in my life, why am I subject to all these crazy rules? Yeah, yeah, if you're going to

00:32:20lecture me, I assume you're going to be picking up all my bills. Yeah, yeah, so that's part of the

00:32:25hypocrisy, is that society, you know, like, they'll assign you homework, right? And then they

00:32:30say, well, we don't want to get involved in your home life. It's like, where do you think I'm doing

00:32:34my homework? You're already involved in my home life. You're already telling me what to do outside

00:32:38of school. It's all up in your face, with all these kinds of rules, and orders, and regulations,

00:32:47and laws, and taxes, it's all up in your face telling you what to do with half your time or

00:32:51more. And then, but then suddenly, when it comes to protecting children in abusive households,

00:32:56everyone's like, well, we don't want to get involved. It's like, yeah, I think that shit

00:33:01makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that's such a cop-out. I'm still like that. I mean, I'm still rebellious

00:33:07in my own way. Like, the whole COVID thing, it was like, you could take your jabs and stick them

00:33:11where, you know, where, like, the sun don't shine. Yeah, you could possibly know that. Don't lecture

00:33:16me. And I mean, that was kind of like another test altogether, you know, for everybody.

00:33:25You know, I think I passed it pretty well. Well, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. So tell me,

00:33:30because you keep using this phrase acting out, and I kind of get what that means in an abstract

00:33:33sense, but I don't know what that means empirically or practically. Oh, like, details, you mean? Like

00:33:39what I did? Or? Well, yeah, because the category as a whole could mean many different things.

00:33:43Anything, yeah. Well, I acted out physically until, you know, probably till I left that school,

00:33:50and I spent a very brief stint. We moved to town briefly while we were in between houses,

00:33:58because my dad was a contractor, and he ended up getting shafted by a client, and we went

00:34:04bankrupt and lost everything. So before we had moved up to where my grandparents were,

00:34:09we spent a brief stint in the local town, which is more like a city now.

00:34:17So I got yanked out of that school that I had always gone to, you know, and when I went to the

00:34:23new school, I was wishing I'd have been back at the old school, because the new school was

00:34:26like just rampant with bullies, and any newcomers, they were just targeted. So, you know, my final

00:34:36six months of school were just, you know, getting beat up every day.

00:34:42Oh, so like real bullies, not like taunting?

00:34:45Oh, real bullies, not just antagonizing. Yes, yes.

00:34:48Bloody lip bullies.

00:34:49Like maybe outside the schoolyard, yep. Black eyes, bloody lips all the time. There's never

00:34:53one person. It was never a fair fight. It was always two or three of them on one,

00:34:57you know? And I was little. I wasn't very big. I'm still small.

00:35:01And yeah, so I was a pretty easy target.

00:35:04And were they boys as well?

00:35:06Oh, yeah, even the boys.

00:35:08Oh, so there was no like, don't hit girls, don't hit, like there was none of that?

00:35:11No, it was a free-for-all.

00:35:13Wow.

00:35:14You know, and the walk home, you know, to and from school was just horrific. And, you know,

00:35:20my mom would see me come home with, you know, black eyes and bloody noses and stuff and

00:35:25go down to the school and talk to them, and nothing was ever done about it.

00:35:28But, you know, I found out later that school was notorious, and my older brother had gone there

00:35:33for a while when he was living with his father, because his father

00:35:36lived right across the street from it.

00:35:38Well, of course.

00:35:39Oh, yeah, so that's what made me tough.

00:35:41Yeah, I mean, the school is usually paid by the number of attendees,

00:35:45so they don't want to kick anyone out.

00:35:47No.

00:35:47Right. So the, you know, follow the money, right? Most people don't have any

00:35:52morals. They just follow their benefits. And so if you look at school and you say, well,

00:35:57if they kick a bunch of kids out for being bullies, well, then, of course, the parents will

00:36:03file complaints and there'll be lawsuits or whatever it is, right?

00:36:06So, and the school will lose money. Like, they literally lose money from protecting children.

00:36:10Yeah.

00:36:11It's crazy.

00:36:12Yeah, it is crazy. It's so corrupt. I mean, I had no idea what was going on at the time, but

00:36:17the last month of school was actually the safest.

00:36:20But what about your dad? Because earlier you were saying, and I'm not trying to catch you

00:36:25out on anything, I'm just trying to figure this out. So earlier you were saying, well,

00:36:28geez, if my parents knew what my grandfather was doing, man, they'd go and they'd put a,

00:36:33you know, put a fist in his face and they'd, you know, fight like hell to protect me.

00:36:36They'd get really angry. And, okay, so your dad sees you getting beat up as a little girl

00:36:42in the school he brought you to. What the hell did he do?

00:36:46He did nothing, but where I can explain that dynamic is that

00:36:51his father was the only person I ever saw him be aggressive with.

00:36:55I didn't think he was capable of being aggressive with anybody else, only his father.

00:37:01And I just, for some reason, I just thought, you know, if that was a bridge too, like,

00:37:08my grandfather touching me would be a bridge too far for him.

00:37:10So Mr. Tough Guy with your granddad is seeing his little girl get beaten up in the school

00:37:17he put her in, and he has his wife go down and talk to people?

00:37:21Yeah, he just let my mom handle that sort of stuff. Well, she was kind of that way anyway.

00:37:25She was like, well, I'm in control. I'm in charge. I'll take care of it sort of thing.

00:37:29But it wasn't working.

00:37:31Yeah, and maybe they fought about it. I'm not sure.

00:37:34Like, but he never did go down there. I know that.

00:37:37I'm not talking about going down to the school.

00:37:40Right. No, she did not. She did nothing.

00:37:42No, no, no.

00:37:43She was working.

00:37:43Your mom went down to the school, right?

00:37:46Yes, she did a couple of times.

00:37:47Okay, so that wasn't working. So what would your father do? He'd go down to the school.

00:37:51He'd go down to the bullies' houses.

00:37:53Nope.

00:37:54Right, and he'd say to the parents, in a nice, civilized, rational way,

00:37:59right, he would say to the parents, you better not, your kids better not touch my daughter.

00:38:05Nope.

00:38:06All right.

00:38:06Never.

00:38:08Okay.

00:38:09There was nobody like that in my life that would step up for me like that.

00:38:12Well, and that's why you were bullied.

00:38:13Like, that's why you, bullies can smell pair bond.

00:38:17Yeah.

00:38:18Like, they can smell a pair bond. They can smell if you have any allies.

00:38:21So the reason you were beaten up, it wasn't like, well, your father should have done that.

00:38:25It's like, well, your father would never do that. That's the only reason you were beaten up.

00:38:29Yeah.

00:38:31Well, I got smart, and I, the last month, it was relatively peaceful because two new

00:38:36girls come in, and they come from a pretty bad area, and they knew how to take care of

00:38:41themselves, and I made friends immediately. I watched them.

00:38:43Yeah, remember, stay off place names if you could, but no problem.

00:38:47Sorry about that.

00:38:48No, no problem.

00:38:49Yeah, they're from a rough area anyways, and they knew how to look after themselves,

00:38:53and I immediately made buddies with them, and so they walked me home after that.

00:38:57Nobody bothered me again.

00:38:59Right.

00:38:59But then by that point, like, we were starting on the new place back in the vicinity of where

00:39:06I would be going back to school with my previous schoolmates.

00:39:09So I didn't have to endure that school any longer.

00:39:12Sorry, how did you move back?

00:39:14Well, my parents were building a new place.

00:39:17They were starting all over from scratch again after the bankruptcy, and they were

00:39:20building a new place, but it meant I would be going back to my old school.

00:39:25Not the old school, but I would be going with my previous classmates to the new

00:39:29elementary, or intermediate school, I should say.

00:39:33Okay.

00:39:35And did your mother work?

00:39:38Yeah, she was a guard at the jail.

00:39:40Sorry, that's got a lot of layers to it, that job.

00:39:45Right.

00:39:45The jail called home, and the jail called work.

00:39:48Right.

00:39:49She always wanted to be a cop, and that, you know, she was really interested in law enforcement.

00:39:55Sure, sure she was.

00:39:57Right.

00:39:57Sure, because she's all about making sure people don't get hurt in enforcing the law.

00:40:03Yeah, that's why she...

00:40:05Isn't that bizarre?

00:40:06Yeah, well, it's not bizarre.

00:40:07Yeah, well, it's not bizarre.

00:40:09I mean, they recognize the law is corrupt, and they want to use the law to

00:40:13fulfill their own corrupt pleasures.

00:40:16Sure, yeah.

00:40:18Wow.

00:40:18Yeah, so it was...

00:40:20And after I had left that school where I was, you know, beaten up so much, then I went the

00:40:28other way.

00:40:28It was just quiet, and I just withdrew right into myself.

00:40:32I didn't act out anymore.

00:40:34I just went silent, radio silent after that, and just flew under the radar.

00:40:39Well, and you basically did what the prison people do, which is you find someone tough

00:40:42to protect you, and that's what you did.

00:40:44But the kids who were tougher, right?

00:40:46Yeah.

00:40:47Well, big kids, whatever.

00:40:48Yeah, yeah, they were tougher and bigger, for sure.

00:40:51Wow, okay.

00:40:51Yeah, so I did that, and then when I, you know, when I went back to the other place,

00:40:55I thought, I just need to keep my mouth shut, keep my head down.

00:40:57So I did.

00:40:58That's what I did from then on out.

00:41:00Right.

00:41:00Did you go the boy's route with the trauma?

00:41:04Absolutely.

00:41:05All right.

00:41:06What happened there?

00:41:08Well, when the house was built, it was on a lake, and there wasn't very many permanent

00:41:16residents around there.

00:41:18But my cousins were, they were there.

00:41:23Like, the whole family was basically scattered around that area, but my cousins, they had

00:41:28a cottage there that they come up to, then I had another set of cousins that lived on

00:41:33the lake year round.

00:41:34So we were pretty, pretty within close proximity, I guess you could say.

00:41:40So they became my buddies, even though, you know, I knew that I could never, ever be honest

00:41:48about, you know, what was going on, and I couldn't act out with them the way that I

00:41:51had done before.

00:41:53They were still better than nothing.

00:41:56So in the warm months, they were there a lot more frequently.

00:41:59So there was, you know, we get to, and it was fun, you know, I could finally had a horse

00:42:03up there, and I finally, you know, we did campfires and, you know, singalongs around

00:42:08the campfire, and it was far preferable to, you know, the earlier childhood, I guess.

00:42:15And anyways, one of my cousins was very good friends with another one of the cottagers

00:42:20families, the girls were quite close.

00:42:24And there was a couple of boys, and one of them was, he was seven years older than me.

00:42:31Seven?

00:42:33I want to say seven, I'm trying to remember.

00:42:34Anyway, I always thought that he was nice looking and stuff, I had a bit of a crush

00:42:39on him.

00:42:40And, you know, he always would bring these girls up all the time that were really like

00:42:45trophy girls, like really nice looking girls, like he pretty much get anybody he wanted.

00:42:49And he had a good job, and he had a nice vehicle and stuff.

00:42:53So when I was 16, he was 24.

00:43:00So did I get that right?

00:43:01Yeah, 24, and I was 16.

00:43:05And anyways, he had started to show interest in me, and I showed it back.

00:43:12And the irony was, when my parents, not my dad, but when my mom got wind of this, she

00:43:19asked me about it.

00:43:21And I admitted to her that, you know, we were interested in each other.

00:43:26And I was hesitant to tell her and she said, well, not that I see anything wrong with it.

00:43:30And I'm like, okay, well, but my dad was dead against it from the very beginning.

00:43:36Like he, but he didn't get a say.

00:43:40That was the way that it worked.

00:43:42Right.

00:43:44And so anyways, this got going pretty hot and heavy.

00:43:49And then by the time, you know, I think maybe my mom thought it was allowed or something.

00:43:57I don't know.

00:43:58I'm not really sure.

00:44:00Anyway, he started picking me up from school on Friday nights and driving me home.

00:44:07And I mean, I'm no expert on this, and you don't have to tell me if you don't know, but

00:44:15isn't this an illegal relationship?

00:44:17Yeah.

00:44:19And didn't your mother want to just enforce the law?

00:44:22Yeah, there was no sex.

00:44:23Well, she was gone from that job by then, because when we moved up there, she couldn't

00:44:27make the drive anymore.

00:44:28No, but she still had that interest.

00:44:30That's what drove her approach.

00:44:32Yeah.

00:44:32And I don't know what her thought process was, maybe because she was the same way when

00:44:37she was 16.

00:44:37I don't know, but nobody liked it.

00:44:43His parents didn't like it.

00:44:44My grandparents, nobody liked it, but she was the only one.

00:44:48But as far as I was concerned, if I didn't need permission from anybody else, it was

00:44:52the only permission I needed was hers, you know, and his, you know, his whole family

00:44:57didn't like it.

00:44:58It was stressful on them, but he's a grown man, right?

00:45:02You mean because of the illegality of it?

00:45:03Yeah, that too.

00:45:04Well, and I didn't even realize that it was illegal at that time.

00:45:07As far as I knew, it was just, okay, as long as you're off sex, there's nothing illegal,

00:45:11right?

00:45:12Oh, and you didn't have sex, is that right?

00:45:13No, we weren't having sex.

00:45:15It was heavy petting and that sort of thing, but there was no sex at that point.

00:45:18Okay, and so I don't know the law, but I think if there's not sex, then it's not as bad.

00:45:25It's not, and that's the way I, I think that's the way I rationalized it.

00:45:29And, you know, he's got this flash car, you know, he's driving up, he's pulling up in

00:45:33my front of my school and picking me up.

00:45:35And, you know, I felt like a, you know, hot shit, basically, you know, and I got this,

00:45:41and he's a big guy.

00:45:42He's a big guy with lots of muscles and stuff.

00:45:44So, you know, nobody's going to mess with me now.

00:45:48Well, I was, because there's, you know, I'm only four foot 11.

00:45:52Oh, right, right.

00:45:53Yeah.

00:45:54And he was over six feet.

00:45:55Wow.

00:45:56So, yeah, and I don't know, I think it was just, I finally got this protector and where

00:46:01it really came around to protection was, I ended up, I got really sick right around March.

00:46:09So this had been going on from the fall all through the winter.

00:46:13And I got shingles on my face.

00:46:17And so my mother had taken me to the doctor and they had, they had just said, oh, it's

00:46:23a breakout of acne or whatever.

00:46:24But I said, it's really painful.

00:46:25Like, it doesn't feel like pimples.

00:46:26Like, and it was just on the one side of my face.

00:46:29Well, with me being so young, they didn't really twig that it was that because shingles

00:46:33usually occurs when you're older.

00:46:34Right.

00:46:35And they're stress related.

00:46:36If I know my shingles.

00:46:37Oh, yeah.

00:46:38Yes.

00:46:39Yes, they are.

00:46:39They are aggravated by stress.

00:46:41Anyway, they just kept getting worse and worse.

00:46:44Well, the weekend rolled around and my boyfriend said, this, this is enough.

00:46:50Like, I greeted him at the door because on the Friday night and he said that, you know,

00:46:54I'm taking you to the hospital.

00:46:55This isn't good.

00:46:57So he took me to the hospital and they didn't really do anything about it.

00:47:01They just, you know, she's having some sort of a breakout or some whatever and sent me

00:47:04home again.

00:47:05Well, then he took me back the next day.

00:47:08I had asked my dad if he would take me because normally he was the one that I had asked my

00:47:13when I was a kid and he was the one that always took me to the hospital.

00:47:15It was never my mother.

00:47:17So I thought that he would take me while he had, he was going fishing with his ice fishing

00:47:23with one of his friends and my mom was too busy drinking her face off.

00:47:26So neither one of them were helping me.

00:47:28And I was in a lot of pain with this.

00:47:29Like it was felt like my face was on fire, you know, and I said, I'm not, I'm not faking

00:47:35like this really hurts.

00:47:36Anyways, they wouldn't take me.

00:47:37So my boyfriend took me again to the hospital.

00:47:40They sent me back home.

00:47:42Well, finally on the Monday, he, he went back to, or sorry, he went back to where he was

00:47:47from.

00:47:48And my mother finally decided to take me to a different doctor.

00:47:52And as soon as he looked at me, he said, take her to the hospital.

00:47:55I'm admitting her.

00:47:57She's got shingles.

00:47:58So, and then I ended up being sent to sick kids.

00:48:02So I spent like a week and a half in sick kids with this.

00:48:07And so I was kind of like, you know, interns, you know, rolling in and out every day to

00:48:12see me because it was kind of a weird case being so young.

00:48:15Right.

00:48:15And anyway, that, then they, you know, when I got home from the hospital, they had had

00:48:21me on like really heavy duty painkillers in the hospital and then just took me, took me

00:48:25off them cold Turkey, which was terrible.

00:48:29So when my parents took me back home, they informed me then that I was to cut off all

00:48:36ties with this guy.

00:48:38Your parents.

00:48:38That was it.

00:48:39Yes.

00:48:40But I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure I understand the cause.

00:48:42Al, is it because he got you help?

00:48:44I guess.

00:48:45No, I don't know.

00:48:46Like, what was there?

00:48:46Like, why?

00:48:47Why suddenly?

00:48:47How long had you guys been going out?

00:48:50We had been going out since the fall.

00:48:52Okay.

00:48:53So September.

00:48:54So six months.

00:48:54And this was March.

00:48:55Right.

00:48:56Okay.

00:48:56March.

00:48:57So, so he helps you and I guess they, they then feel bad.

00:49:01He's made them feel bad because he got you the care that you needed that they didn't.

00:49:06So now you can't see him because he's making them feel bad.

00:49:09Do I have that something?

00:49:10I think so.

00:49:11Yeah, I'm sure that's what it was about.

00:49:13Lord above.

00:49:14They, you know, my mom said, well, you know, we just realized that, you know, the relationship

00:49:18could become sexual.

00:49:19So we were cutting it off and it's like, well, it should have stopped it in the first place.

00:49:22Do you know what I mean?

00:49:23Right, right.

00:49:24And meanwhile, like, I, it makes me sick now to think back to that time when I was with him.

00:49:29It makes me sick because I know he is a predator.

00:49:33Oh, and not only were you 16, but you were a 16 year old who looked 12.

00:49:39Yeah.

00:49:41Yeah.

00:49:42That's makes me want to vomit too.

00:49:45But, but, but, you know, I'm, last thing I'd want to do is justify this kind of predation

00:49:50and I'm not, but.

00:49:51I know you're not.

00:49:52He did get you help.

00:49:55Yeah.

00:49:56Finally, the protective adult.

00:49:58Right.

00:49:58And I, and I know now that was why I latched onto him.

00:50:02Well, predator cared about you more than your parents.

00:50:06Yeah.

00:50:07Right.

00:50:09Wow.

00:50:09It led to a very ugly scene.

00:50:12Anyway, a few nights later and my mom, she beat me harder than she'd ever beaten me.

00:50:18And, and I, I went out to the living room where my dad was sitting and I, you know,

00:50:24I screamed at him.

00:50:25Do you want to have a go now?

00:50:26Like she's, you know, she's had her, and she was drunk, of course.

00:50:30And what is the beating like?

00:50:31Is it with, with implements or how does that beating go?

00:50:35Just fists.

00:50:36Yeah.

00:50:37Yeah.

00:50:37She used to use a strap when we were younger, but when we got older, she didn't.

00:50:41She just used her hand to slap and punch.

00:50:43Right.

00:50:46So I left that night.

00:50:47I left with him and I, I was gone for six months.

00:50:51I moved in with him.

00:50:53And then of course, he took me immediately with the boyfriend.

00:50:56Wow.

00:50:57Wow.

00:50:58Okay.

00:51:00I left with him and moved away and he, you know, took care of me.

00:51:05But the first thing he did was take me to the doctor and get me put on the pill so that he

00:51:09could start having sex with me.

00:51:11And were you still 16 at this point or had you turned 17?

00:51:14Yeah.

00:51:14I hadn't turned 17 by this point.

00:51:16I was still 16.

00:51:18Good Lord.

00:51:19Yeah.

00:51:20So we just hit it, you know, lied about it.

00:51:24Right.

00:51:25Yeah.

00:51:26And I was with him for a couple of years.

00:51:31Wow.

00:51:31And he paid all the bills and took care of everything.

00:51:33But by, by the second year or so, I was starting to become pretty repulsed

00:51:39and I didn't want to be with him anymore.

00:51:41So I started looking for a way out.

00:51:43Yeah.

00:51:45And I ended up living with an aunt.

00:51:47Sorry, go ahead.

00:51:50I ended up living with an aunt.

00:51:51I ended up leaving him and living with an aunt to get back on my feet.

00:51:56And what was it that occurred for you

00:51:59with regards to this guy that you were so repulsed?

00:52:03And of course, I'm not disagreeing with anything you're feeling, obviously.

00:52:07But what was it that?

00:52:09He gained about 80 pounds.

00:52:10Yeah.

00:52:10I was going to say something must have happened physically.

00:52:13Yeah.

00:52:15Yeah.

00:52:15He gained about 80 pounds and just let himself go like big time.

00:52:19Right.

00:52:20Yeah.

00:52:21Okay.

00:52:21And so you began, you know, the, the, the, in a sense, his nature took over from his looks.

00:52:28Right.

00:52:28Mm hmm.

00:52:29Okay.

00:52:29Yeah.

00:52:30And he was really, you know, he became pretty controlling.

00:52:33Right.

00:52:33Um, he didn't really want me around other friends and stuff like that.

00:52:37Unless he gains weight.

00:52:37You want to be home right after.

00:52:39Yeah.

00:52:39He's going to, he's going to want to make sure that you don't notice just how gross this is.

00:52:44And yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:52:46Yeah.

00:52:46And I mean, I was, you know, it's probably about a seven or an eight at that point on

00:52:52a scale of 10, you know, on walks department, maybe a little higher, you know, when I was

00:52:56younger, but, um, I started, it was getting attention from younger guys that were more

00:53:01my age and, and then, uh, yeah.

00:53:04And then I ended up taking up with my first husband.

00:53:08Hmm.

00:53:09I ended up, uh, yeah, leaving him and started dating the first guy.

00:53:14Yeah.

00:53:14Leaving him and started dating my first husband.

00:53:19All right.

00:53:19So, uh, tell me a little about that.

00:53:22Uh, he was a sweetheart.

00:53:24Um, but funnily enough, it was just like my dad.

00:53:29Didn't matter what I did.

00:53:30I was perfect.

00:53:31Oh, so he was passive as well.

00:53:33Right.

00:53:34Very.

00:53:34Right.

00:53:35Yeah.

00:53:36Real sweetheart.

00:53:38But, uh, yeah, very passive.

00:53:41He just let me do whatever I wanted.

00:53:42He came from a similar background.

00:53:44His mother was an alcoholic and his father was really passive.

00:53:48Right.

00:53:48And so kind of at that point, I think I kind of, kind of almost became my mother.

00:53:54Oh, like he brought out the dominant side in you.

00:53:56Yeah.

00:53:56I was really dominant with him, but that turned me off at the same time because it was like,

00:54:00you know, in my innate nature, I think I knew, you know, men are supposed to kind of take the

00:54:05lead, you know, to a certain extent.

00:54:07And I felt like I was taking the lead.

00:54:09And, and, and like what kind of woke me up to that was one day, some guy had, we were,

00:54:15we worked together for a while.

00:54:17And one guy in the workplace of employment called me a filthy name.

00:54:20And I stood there and looked at my husband, like, are you going to do something?

00:54:23And he didn't.

00:54:24So I slapped the guy's face.

00:54:26Right.

00:54:30Anyway.

00:54:31Yeah.

00:54:32And so that lasted, we were together for two years, married for two.

00:54:36And then I started messing around on him.

00:54:40And I became full-blown promiscuous after that.

00:54:43Sorry.

00:54:44So what was the sort of final straw with your first husband?

00:54:49I just didn't feel attracted to him anymore.

00:54:52And in my brain at the point, at that point, I figured it was all about that.

00:54:56It was all about attractiveness.

00:54:57You're not attracted to somebody then, you know, and it wasn't like he changed his looks

00:55:01or anything.

00:55:02He was a really nice looking guy.

00:55:03When I look back, you know, he was nice looking.

00:55:06It was like I was bored with him.

00:55:08Well, yeah.

00:55:08I mean, he's not there and he's too compliant.

00:55:10So he was nice to me.

00:55:12I was like, well, you know, no, no, no.

00:55:15I don't think it was a nice thing anymore than your dad was nice.

00:55:19Weakness is not nice.

00:55:20Quiet.

00:55:21Yeah.

00:55:21No, it wasn't.

00:55:22He just self erased because I guess that's how he was raised, right?

00:55:25Yeah, of course.

00:55:26Yeah.

00:55:29And so, but there wasn't a big dramatic thing.

00:55:31It was just like kind of fading out.

00:55:34You.

00:55:34Yeah.

00:55:35Yeah, I just, yeah, I just kind of quietly moved out one day and, and, you know, where

00:55:42I worked, we were in the same community because it's kind of a, it's a community, the kind

00:55:48of job that we had.

00:55:50You can't avoid each other.

00:55:52Everybody works in that, that industry.

00:55:54So, yeah, so I, I just started, you know, dating anybody and going out with anybody

00:56:01and sleeping with guys on the first date.

00:56:02And yeah, there was a free for all.

00:56:05And what was your age here?

00:56:07Uh, I was one, two, three.

00:56:12And, uh, when we broke up.

00:56:15Right.

00:56:15And you left him, right?

00:56:17Yeah.

00:56:17Okay.

00:56:19Got it.

00:56:20Got it.

00:56:22So then how long did the promiscuous phase last?

00:56:26Uh, well, I ended up like, you know, I slept around a little bit and then I ended up dating

00:56:33a guy long-term for a couple of years.

00:56:35It seemed like two years was, became a kind of the limit for me in relationships.

00:56:41It just went kind of from relationship to relationship.

00:56:44The second guy was, you know, a little stronger in character, but not much.

00:56:48Um, we, you know, we kind of, again, I left him, you know, I got bored with him and I

00:56:57left him.

00:56:58And then, uh, after that, I took up with another guy that had kids that, you know,

00:57:03that lasted for two years and I left him.

00:57:05Oh, you took up with a guy who had kids.

00:57:07How old were the kids?

00:57:08Yeah.

00:57:09The kids were five and eight.

00:57:12Wow.

00:57:12That, so that, that had to be pretty, I mean, that's a pretty big change from these unattached

00:57:16guys.

00:57:16Yeah.

00:57:16He was, he was about six years older than me.

00:57:20Um, but he was a recovering alcoholic and he, you know, he was growing.

00:57:25And the weird thing of it was, was my brother used to be married to his sister.

00:57:29So I, I'd known him a long time.

00:57:31Wow.

00:57:32Yeah.

00:57:32And it was like, well, the family didn't dynamic didn't work out the first time.

00:57:35What was I thinking?

00:57:36But it was just, you know, I just figured you had to be in a relationship.

00:57:40Sure.

00:57:41So, and after him, I didn't have a relationship for quite a while until I met my second husband.

00:57:50Who was again in the same industry as my first husband.

00:57:53You know, I never really left that industry.

00:57:56It was a harness racing.

00:57:57Ah, okay.

00:57:58Got it.

00:58:00Yeah.

00:58:01It's fairly specific.

00:58:01So yeah, yeah.

00:58:04Should have just said horse racing.

00:58:08Anyway, um, yeah.

00:58:10And I met my second husband who was from, uh, from down under and, uh, we were married

00:58:18in order to keep him in the country.

00:58:19We were married within eight months.

00:58:21Wow.

00:58:23Now he was an entirely different animal.

00:58:25He was the dominant one for sure.

00:58:27Oh, Australian.

00:58:29Right.

00:58:29Yeah.

00:58:30Yeah.

00:58:31And he, uh, he was, uh, he'd had a really traumatic experience happened to him.

00:58:38And I didn't find out about this until later on.

00:58:41I mean, I didn't really do my homework too much with him.

00:58:43We just kind of met and, you know, just fell in love and what felt like love to me.

00:58:49And, uh, you know, the thought of him leaving the country and waiting six months to come back,

00:58:54the lawyers just said, how fast can you get married?

00:58:56So we just did like a weekend wedding.

00:58:58Like it was just a, you know, quick.

00:59:01And, uh, he was, uh, I think he had a bit of PTSD or something because he was like,

00:59:07he was the kind of person who was an awful lot like my brother.

00:59:10Now I can talk about that too.

00:59:12Uh, I'll get you before you get me, you know, like if somebody looked at him the wrong way,

00:59:16you'd be like, what the hell are you looking at?

00:59:19Like he, he would have never let anybody touch me.

00:59:22Like he would have, like he would have stood up to anybody.

00:59:25That was the kind of guy he was, but he was grouchy.

00:59:29You know, I think he really loved me.

00:59:31You know, the bat, you know, he, he would bring me flowers and write me beautiful letters.

00:59:37And, and he watched me take care of my mom through a crisis one time.

00:59:42And he wrote to me, you know, he wrote about that to me and said, you know,

00:59:45how touched he was at, you know, the tenderness I could display and,

00:59:49you know, to see me with her.

00:59:50And, you know, cause our relationship was better at that point.

00:59:55It wasn't, you know, in terms of, of fighting and stuff like that,

00:59:59we didn't have that going on so much anymore.

01:00:03And she had quit drinking.

01:00:05Right.

01:00:05Okay.

01:00:06And your parents, they, are they still together?

01:00:09Uh, they're both dead now.

01:00:11Oh, okay.

01:00:12But they were, yeah, they were when my father,

01:00:14my father passed away in 2013.

01:00:17And I came home from where I was to, to help him look after him.

01:00:24But the marriage, again, it didn't last very long.

01:00:26I've, I was in the relationship from start to finish six years.

01:00:30And before it ended, I took up with another guy.

01:00:34And did you ever think of, did you ever think of having kids?

01:00:37So did you have conversations with these guys about having kids?

01:00:41Um, the first one wanted kids and so did the second one.

01:00:44And I never wanted kids.

01:00:46I know now why I didn't want kids, but I, if I could do it again, I would have kids.

01:00:54No, that's a single biggest regret in my life.

01:00:58Right.

01:00:59So what happens with the, uh, I mean, six years, if you're not going to have kids often six years

01:01:05or, you know, half a decade, or sometimes it's even three or four,

01:01:08your body or his body is like, okay, well, if we're not having kids here, that's common.

01:01:13Basically, that's what happened.

01:01:15He wanted to have kids and you didn't.

01:01:17So he moved on.

01:01:18No, he didn't move on.

01:01:19I left him.

01:01:20Oh, okay.

01:01:23Yeah, he resigned.

01:01:24He resigned himself to the fact that I was never going to have kids.

01:01:26So he, and he was, he had accepted that and he knew that when we got married.

01:01:30Right.

01:01:30It's like, okay, well, I really like them, but okay.

01:01:33If you don't want them, then we don't have to.

01:01:35Right.

01:01:36But he did want them and he was, he was very, very good with kids.

01:01:40Like he'd get down on the floor and play with them and stuff like that.

01:01:43He had, he was his, he came from a big family who took in foster children.

01:01:48So he was very accustomed to babies and little kids and stuff.

01:01:52I, I avoided babies and toddlers, like the plague.

01:01:55Like when I was a kid, I didn't like other kids.

01:01:58Right.

01:02:00So the last one I took up with, what's the last relationship I've had?

01:02:04And it's been since that was ended in 2014.

01:02:09And I haven't had a relationship since.

01:02:10And I haven't been with anybody since.

01:02:12Hmm.

01:02:13And what, what's the story with that last relationship?

01:02:17Well, you know, when you say you get red flags, I, I, he was on the other side of the country.

01:02:24Yeah.

01:02:24And I knew his brother pretty well.

01:02:28Cause we, you know, he was in the same business as my first two husbands.

01:02:32We were all in the same business.

01:02:33So I knew his brother.

01:02:34He had moved from, from out West to where, where I am because the, you know, better,

01:02:40better purses and that sort of thing.

01:02:43So I used to look after some of his animals.

01:02:46And so I knew him and then, and I knew of this guy because he was pretty prolific in

01:02:52that business.

01:02:54And so anyway, he was separated and, and just, just slightly before I got out of my marriage,

01:03:05we, we kind of took up online and started a relationship that way.

01:03:11And then eventually I have no, and I thought I died and gone to heaven.

01:03:15I thought he was perfect.

01:03:17But spoiler, he wasn't perfect.

01:03:19Spoiler.

01:03:20No, as a matter of fact, it was probably the most dangerous relationship I've been in,

01:03:25in terms of emotional abuse, because he's just a champion, champion gaslighter.

01:03:32What, so tell me, tell me the story.

01:03:34What, how did it grow?

01:03:35What happened?

01:03:37Well, I had gone out several times to see him and his job took him on the road quite

01:03:48a bit.

01:03:49So it was almost like, you know, you get in the car and you're basically going on a holiday.

01:03:53So everything's great.

01:03:54You know, it's not like you see them at home and, you know, it wasn't like he was in his

01:03:58house or anything.

01:03:59And oh yeah, long distance is cocaine.

01:04:01Yeah.

01:04:01Long distance.

01:04:02Oh yeah.

01:04:02Yeah.

01:04:02Totally was.

01:04:03Yeah.

01:04:03It just totally fell for the whole thing, you know?

01:04:06And so I didn't really get to see, you know, I had, we talked a lot, so I knew that he

01:04:12had some issues, you know, with this, you know, he was over, over, how do I put it?

01:04:19He was a, he was a really, really good dad.

01:04:24But I don't think he really knew how to incorporate a woman into that mix.

01:04:33And even in so much as when I finally did move out to where he was to live, you know,

01:04:39I talked to his ex-wife and then she confided in me that when the kids were born, he just

01:04:44discarded her.

01:04:45It was kind of like, well, I got them now.

01:04:47I don't need you.

01:04:48And she said, I actually felt jealous of my own kids sometimes because he just never,

01:04:53yeah, a little creepy.

01:04:54Yeah.

01:04:55But, but I noticed with his daughter, like I, you know, she was 16, 17 and he would,

01:05:03you know, they'd be sitting on the couch together and he'd be stroking her hair and her back

01:05:07and stuff like that.

01:05:08And it seemed to me weird.

01:05:11And I guess I'm just oversensitive to that just because of my background.

01:05:16And I just thought it was a little too much.

01:05:18And then, you know, I had a pretty good, like, I consider that I tried very, very hard with

01:05:25the kids and I liked them where, you know, I think I grew to love them.

01:05:29You know, I had a really good relationship with both of them.

01:05:32And the young lad lived with us most of the time.

01:05:37And because, you know, their mother now has this newfound freedom, you know, she's going

01:05:43on dates and partying a lot and that sort of thing.

01:05:46So he felt pretty neglected by her.

01:05:48So he really latched onto me and it actually freaked me out a little bit because he was

01:05:54only eight when I moved out there.

01:05:56And so he just, like my ex actually called him like the mauler because he would just

01:06:02basically be in my lap all the time and just want to be right where I was and, you know,

01:06:07his arms around me and he, you know, I'd get up to, to walk, walk out, you know, out of

01:06:12a chair to walk out of the room and he'd grab ahold of my leg and make me drag him

01:06:16with me, that sort of stuff.

01:06:18And then I thought, you know, what if somebody sees that and they take it the wrong way?

01:06:25And so I distanced myself from him.

01:06:27I didn't realize that it was just normal behavior for a young boy like that to just, it's almost

01:06:32like a crush sort of thing.

01:06:34You know, my friends would tell me later.

01:06:36Yeah, it's a little bit.

01:06:37Yeah, yeah, it's desperate.

01:06:38But I just thought, you know, and I, I thought it was so sweet and everything, but at the

01:06:42same time, you know, then they got this thing in my brain.

01:06:44What if somebody sees that and goes, you know, she's being inappropriate or whatever.

01:06:48So then I, I started pushing him away and it really hurt his feelings.

01:06:55And then he just wasn't the same with me after that.

01:06:57And I felt really bad for it because, you know, it wasn't his fault.

01:07:00He's just doing what kids do, you know, but I was more afraid of what was going to happen

01:07:05to me, you know, which was pretty selfish.

01:07:09Well, I get where you're coming from and there is a risk and it is that, that is a bit, I

01:07:18mean, it's an overattachment, but I kind of understand where it would be coming from.

01:07:22Yeah, I do too.

01:07:23Like, you know, and I, you know, I just thought, oh, he just, you know, he's so sweet and he

01:07:27just likes me so much and this is good, you know?

01:07:31And then, then one day it was like, you know, he's just right in my lap with his arms right

01:07:35around me, nuzzled right into my neck and I'm like, wait a minute, you know, what if?

01:07:40Yeah, no, I wouldn't say it's necessarily selfish.

01:07:43Yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessarily selfish, of course, because I can completely understand

01:07:47why there would be concerns and it may not be the very healthiest thing for him to be

01:07:51that attached physically to a woman who basically just moved into his life, right?

01:07:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:59I think he was just, you know, missing his mother, you know, because he wasn't seeing

01:08:02her much.

01:08:03He was maybe seeing her one day a week and stuff, I think, been his little brain nuts.

01:08:07But I mean, like, my ex was a very peaceful parent, like, he didn't punish him.

01:08:12You know, his kids know how much they mean to him and, you know, he was really loving

01:08:17and engaged and that sort of thing.

01:08:19But the girl, like I said, I think that was a bit over the top, some of the stuff with

01:08:23her.

01:08:24I don't know, maybe there was nothing to it.

01:08:27I don't know.

01:08:27But knowing him the way that I know him now, it's, I don't know, I'm not sure.

01:08:32And I look an awful lot like his daughter, just because it's funny.

01:08:36We'd be out places and people would say, oh, your daughter is so beautiful.

01:08:42And I thought, OK, you know, so I made that jump, too.

01:08:45And again, I.

01:08:46And was he, sorry, was he much older?

01:08:51Four years than me, four years older.

01:08:53Right.

01:08:54Yeah.

01:08:55So, not much, no.

01:08:57Right, OK.

01:08:57But he never had time for me.

01:08:59It was just, you know, he he took his kids on holiday and left me at home.

01:09:03And I mean, I'm in a strange place.

01:09:05I don't have anybody around that I know.

01:09:07And he did that to me all the time.

01:09:08He never took me anywhere.

01:09:11You know, he took them places, but he would never take me anywhere.

01:09:13If I wanted to, if I wanted to be with them, you know, then I could go to, you know, dance

01:09:18recitals and I could go to hockey and that sort of thing.

01:09:22And even then, like he, you know, he was very involved with the hockey team and that took

01:09:26precedent over me.

01:09:27Like everything came before me.

01:09:30Wow.

01:09:31And so I thought, what am I doing here?

01:09:32But, you know, I was he was happy as long as I was chauffeuring the kids around and

01:09:36cooking and cleaning and entertaining everybody.

01:09:39And, you know, because I'm a real homemaker that way.

01:09:41I'm really good at that sort of stuff, you know, and I thought, you know, with, you know,

01:09:45till I got on my feet working, you know, I would do my best to look after things for

01:09:52him, you know, make life easy for him.

01:09:55And so I jumped right in.

01:09:56You know, and then after a while, I started to see that I was kind of getting shoved aside

01:10:02for everything else.

01:10:03And I was like, what am I doing here?

01:10:06Which was sad to me because.

01:10:07Sorry, go ahead.

01:10:10Sorry.

01:10:11Sorry, go ahead.

01:10:11You said it was sad to you.

01:10:14Sad to me?

01:10:15Yeah.

01:10:15Sorry, you said.

01:10:16Because I really loved him.

01:10:20I really loved him, but I just felt really resentful.

01:10:23And so when my dad got sick and I had an opportunity to come back to, back home to help my mother

01:10:28out with him, I just jumped at it.

01:10:31So, and how did things end with this guy?

01:10:36Overtouched?

01:10:37This guy?

01:10:39Yeah.

01:10:42He, when I came back, back home to my, you know, where I'm from, I think what made it

01:10:50easier was while I was helping my mom look after my dad, I took a job at a place, a family-run

01:10:59business, and I just made some really good friends there and the family just were so

01:11:04good to me.

01:11:05Like, it just felt, and I had missed home terribly.

01:11:08It was really homesick.

01:11:10And so I think it was kind of a culmination of those things.

01:11:14I finally had a, you know, I was working for, you know, at a job that I absolutely loved,

01:11:19you know, and they gave me lots of time to help my mom with my father.

01:11:23And, you know, I was, I don't know, I just felt like I was back home again, and that's

01:11:28where I was supposed to be, because I just felt so lonely and isolated where I was.

01:11:33Wow.

01:11:34Now, what was the, you said the guy was gaslighting, what was the gaslighting aspect of it?

01:11:39Like, I care about you, but I'm going on holiday with my kids and not you?

01:11:43Yeah, well, there was that, but I, you know, I would say to him, you know, I wish he'd

01:11:47spend more time with me.

01:11:48Like, why can't we, you know, go do things together?

01:11:50Let's go for a walk, you know, let's, you know, let's go do things together.

01:11:55It'd be really, yeah, I said, you know, I could, I don't mind doing all this other

01:11:59stuff, I'm happy to do it, but, you know, I'd like a date night once, you know, he'd

01:12:03take me out for dinner or something, you know, and then he'd say, well, you know, I'm busy

01:12:09and I don't have time and stuff like that.

01:12:10And then I, you know, when it would boil over to the point where I'd get frustrated and

01:12:14and cry or, you know, just sheer frustration.

01:12:19I know that was probably manipulative on my part, but it would boil over and then I'd

01:12:23get angry.

01:12:24And then he'd look at me and say, see, that's why I can't talk to you, look at how you get.

01:12:28Right.

01:12:29You know, like, and I'd say, he'd forget my birthday and he'd forget to, you know,

01:12:35I'd ask him to pick up something on the way home and he'd do, oh, I'm sorry, I forgot.

01:12:40You know, but all the time, like, it was just, you know, he was telling me and I remember

01:12:45him saying to me one time, he said, I never get angry.

01:12:48You know, I don't know where your anger comes from sometimes because I'm never angry.

01:12:53Yeah.

01:12:54Everybody loves me.

01:12:55Yeah.

01:12:57It's never me.

01:12:58And do you know why he got divorced?

01:13:01I mean, was it the, was it his wife saying he puts the kids before him?

01:13:04Mother, yeah.

01:13:06Yeah, he didn't pay any attention to her, he neglected her.

01:13:09And she just, you know, she, she kept trying to same thing as me, you know, her and I talked

01:13:15about it, which is kind of, you know, weird, but I, I almost grew to like her more than him.

01:13:21Right.

01:13:21You know, yeah.

01:13:23And she just loved how I so good with her kids and, you know, like I never tried to

01:13:28replace her or anything like that, but she just, her dad died and I was there for her

01:13:33when her dad died.

01:13:34Like, I'm the one that drove her to the hospital and stuff.

01:13:39Wow.

01:13:40Just, you know, and I look, when I look at that, I'm like, that's just so wrong on so

01:13:43many levels that I became, you know, almost good friends with her, you know, now he thought

01:13:51it was great because he thought it was good for the kids that we got along.

01:13:54Right.

01:13:55You know, but I don't even know, like, I'm so good.

01:13:59That's the thing, Stefan, that, you know, in my life, I don't even know what's appropriate

01:14:03isn't anymore.

01:14:04I try to go by, you know, you know, as a Christian, I became a Christian just before I moved out

01:14:12there.

01:14:12So that was another thing that he threw in my face because he wouldn't commit to me,

01:14:17you know, in terms of marriage.

01:14:19And it was important to me that we got married.

01:14:21And he said, well, I can't marry anyways, because I'm not a Christian and you're a

01:14:24Christian.

01:14:24I'm like, the whole thing was just a mess.

01:14:29And even, you know, Christian.

01:14:33Yeah.

01:14:33Well, he was still technically married.

01:14:35They weren't divorced.

01:14:36They were just, they were legally separated.

01:14:39Oh, wow.

01:14:41Yeah.

01:14:42But he was still, and that was the thing, like, I didn't understand even as a Christian

01:14:47what that meant for me to go out there because I became a Christian just before I went out

01:14:51there, you know, said the vows and everything, and I met them.

01:14:55And, you know, I started going to church and stuff.

01:14:58He would never come with me.

01:15:02You know, in all fairness to him, he didn't, you know, that's not what he signed up for,

01:15:06you know, being with a Christian, because he was, you know, I don't think he was an

01:15:10atheist, but he wasn't a Christian.

01:15:13So I didn't realize that if I had known then what I know now, I would have never moved

01:15:17out there.

01:15:18Well, he worshipped his children, a room for God.

01:15:23Yeah.

01:15:23Well, yeah, there's that.

01:15:24And then, you know, now that I understand what Christianity means, like, you don't move

01:15:30in with guys, you don't.

01:15:32Right, right.

01:15:32Like, I take it pretty serious now, like, you know, I'm celibate now for all intents

01:15:39and purposes.

01:15:39You know, I would never sleep with a guy now before a marriage, like, I just wouldn't,

01:15:43but, you know, because that's been a pattern my whole life, so I'm not going to repeat

01:15:49that behavior.

01:15:50It's been really bad for me.

01:15:51Right, right.

01:15:55Okay, so that was, was it six years ago, did I have that right, that that relationship

01:16:00ended?

01:16:02It was 2014, so 10.

01:16:0610, 10 years ago, okay.

01:16:0710 years, and I came back to look after my mother.

01:16:10Yeah, so tell me what happened there.

01:16:14Well, I knew that she wasn't, like, with the income and stuff that she had and the kind

01:16:18of bills she had, that, you know, she wasn't going to have much, really, to live on.

01:16:24She started to get a bit, you know, sicker, you know, just, you know, old age, right,

01:16:29things creeping up, because she's had a history.

01:16:32She was a smoker.

01:16:33She had been a drinker for a lot of years.

01:16:35Now, she'd been sober since 1999 at this point, so she hadn't had another drink, and

01:16:42she took that really seriously, not drinking.

01:16:45She'd had a couple stints.

01:16:48What prompted her to stop drinking?

01:16:49She just woke up one day and said, I'll never have another hangover again.

01:16:53Like, this is, you know, I'm just not, I'm never going to wake up feeling like this again.

01:16:59That's what she said, that it was the hangovers.

01:17:03She just couldn't, and she said it never mattered whether she drank one or 20.

01:17:06Yeah, it was still fundamentally selfish, because it was about her and not the people,

01:17:09and it's like, I can't hurt the people around me, blah, blah, blah, right?

01:17:13No, you're right.

01:17:14Yeah, it wasn't about that, and she had a tough time talking about that, of course,

01:17:18you know, later on, we did talk about it, and she did, like, she did, you know, tell

01:17:23me she was sorry for what she'd done to me and my brother during that point.

01:17:28So, we did have some of those conversations, and I know now, like, I would have never,

01:17:35ever, if I'd have found you then and listened to, you know, the call-ins that I've listened

01:17:40to, and since then, I would have never put myself in a position where I was in a position

01:17:49to have to take care of her or whatever, but when I came back, I promised that I would

01:17:53take care of her, and so I did.

01:17:57Where did that promise come from, and also, sorry, how ill was she?

01:18:05She was getting debilitated enough that it would be tough for her to live on her own,

01:18:10she could have done it, but she would have had to, she probably would have had to go

01:18:15into some, you know, government-assisted housing or something like that, or taken a

01:18:21roommate or something to be able to afford to eat properly and, you know, and live.

01:18:27She was in an apartment, and of course, with, you know, she ended up with my dad's pension,

01:18:31but she didn't, she hadn't worked enough in her life to have a sizable pension of her own.

01:18:36Well, and she spent all her money on booze and cigarettes and other things, so she didn't

01:18:40save her money.

01:18:41Yeah, so she didn't prepare, yeah, she didn't prepare for her old age at all.

01:18:45Well, no, she counter-prepared, right?

01:18:49So she wrecked her health and didn't save her money.

01:18:54Yeah, absolutely, and I think she always thought because of her, you know, her health habits

01:19:00that my dad would outlive her.

01:19:03She never anticipated that he would die before her.

01:19:07And what did he die?

01:19:08He was so much healthier.

01:19:09He died of colon cancer.

01:19:11Okay.

01:19:13Yeah, so, and he, you know, he lasted quite a while, but he died at home.

01:19:21I was right beside him when he died.

01:19:25Did he not have any life insurance that she could lean on?

01:19:29He had a little bit, but it was just like a really small term thing, you know, just a

01:19:34little bit to get her by and enough to take care of his arrangements.

01:19:38He didn't have a big policy.

01:19:39Why, I'm sorry, I just, I find this incomprehensible.

01:19:42Like insurance is one of the great innovations of the modern world.

01:19:45Why, and it's pretty cheap.

01:19:46You buy it young, it's dirt cheap.

01:19:49Like why, is it just general chaos or stupidity?

01:19:52Or like, why wouldn't you just have, you know, spend 50 bucks a month on life insurance?

01:19:57I mean, you got enough money for booze and cigarettes?

01:20:01Yep, and gambling.

01:20:03She went to bingo all the time.

01:20:05She blew through the savings that they had.

01:20:07Oh yeah, yeah.

01:20:09She had a rich aunt who died and left them, like left them about a half a million dollars

01:20:14and there's nothing left, you know, between the spending habits and, you know, her spending

01:20:20habits or her bingo addiction and giving money, like throwing money like crazy at my brother.

01:20:29Because that's what she always did with him.

01:20:30She had to throw money at him to keep him around.

01:20:33That's what, you know, and he never paid back any loan that they ever gave him.

01:20:39He paid back some of it until he didn't feel like paying back anymore.

01:20:42And then he wouldn't pay it back.

01:20:43She bailed him out all the time on child support and stuff like that.

01:20:48Okay, so she had a lot of money and she blew it all.

01:20:53Yeah, they blew it all.

01:20:56Right.

01:20:56Because even like when she quit drinking, it was like, okay, I'm turning over a new

01:21:00leaf now, you know, we're going to sell the house and we're going to get a motorhome and

01:21:04travel.

01:21:05Well, motorhomes are a money pit.

01:21:07So the equity that they had, they just, you know, they lost it all basically through stupid

01:21:12decisions.

01:21:12And my dad just indulged every decision she made that was dumb.

01:21:16You know, he was a saver.

01:21:17He wasn't, he didn't go out and spend tons of money, but he just never, he never put his

01:21:22foot down ever with her.

01:21:23Well, sorry, but I mean, you don't need to be a saver to put money into life insurance.

01:21:28I mean, you just make it a bill, right?

01:21:30No, and you don't need to be a saver when you inherit a bunch of money like that either.

01:21:35No, no, but he knew she was retarded with money, right?

01:21:40Yeah.

01:21:41So wouldn't he get life insurance because he knows that she's not going to retire with

01:21:45much?

01:21:47Yeah, he just let her handle all the finances.

01:21:49Okay.

01:21:50That's what, that would be his excuse.

01:21:52All right.

01:21:52He would just say, well, I didn't, I didn't handle the money.

01:21:55Okay.

01:21:56Okay.

01:21:57And so what was her health?

01:21:59What were her health issues that required this kind of assistance?

01:22:05Well, she had a pretty debilitating back injury.

01:22:08Um, when she was, uh, working as a guard, um, there was an altercation and she'd, she'd

01:22:13gotten hurt.

01:22:14Um, but she'd always kind of had a bad back and she had pretty bad arthritis, like her

01:22:18hands or didn't work properly anymore.

01:22:21So she dropped things all the time.

01:22:23She cut herself, she burnt herself, you know, just dropping things and mishandling stuff.

01:22:28So, I mean, that could just be bad luck, right?

01:22:30Some people just get bad luck arthritis, right?

01:22:34Yeah, well, it, it just, you know, when it would flare up, she literally couldn't do

01:22:38anything.

01:22:38She tried to knit and stuff like that to keep her hands, you know, mobile.

01:22:42Yeah.

01:22:43But she just, she didn't look after herself and, you know, the doctor would give her a

01:22:46pill and she'd just take anything a doctor handed her, but she wouldn't do anything to,

01:22:52to, you know, improve her health.

01:22:53Like, you know, I fed her pretty good and stuff, but it got to a point where it was

01:22:57like, you know, I couldn't get her to eat any healthier than she chose to eat, even

01:23:02though I was, I was pretty much the, like the agreement we had initially was she paid

01:23:06the rent and I paid for everything else.

01:23:08And then, uh, you know, we'd moved, moved a couple places and then we decided that we'd

01:23:13just split everything down the middle.

01:23:15And so, you know, it was good for me too, because I couldn't afford the places that

01:23:21I was in without a roommate.

01:23:24So to me, it was just a kind of a mutually beneficial thing.

01:23:27Like, it wasn't like she was tough to look after.

01:23:30Um, so we were just more like, just, it was kind of like a marriage almost.

01:23:36And then we'd have these blowups every now and then when she, you know, because I got

01:23:40to a point where I, I didn't put up with crappy behavior and it was weird.

01:23:45It was almost like a certain dynamic that took over where she started to cow and I was

01:23:53the dominant person.

01:23:55So I kind of laid down the law to her and she would, you know, she became more submissive.

01:24:03Now she's a little old lady, right?

01:24:04She can't.

01:24:05And sorry, how old was she when the health issues really began to kick in, 60s?

01:24:12Uh, yeah, around her 60s.

01:24:14So it was before my dad got really sick.

01:24:16She was having issues then.

01:24:18She had COPD pretty bad, but she never quit smoking.

01:24:22Oh, she never quit smoking?

01:24:23She never did.

01:24:24No.

01:24:25So you moved in with a smoker?

01:24:28Well, she'd quit when I moved in with her.

01:24:30She did.

01:24:30And she, she had always smoked inside, right?

01:24:33She'd been smoking since the day I was a kid.

01:24:35So I think that's why I got a few breathing issues now.

01:24:38But, uh, no, she had quit then because she had to have a hip surgery and the surgeon

01:24:43wouldn't operate on her without her quitting.

01:24:46So that was the other reason I moved in was to help her out, you know, with that.

01:24:49And then it just turned into, you know, long-term thing.

01:24:53Sorry, did she, so she did quit or she didn't quit?

01:24:57She quit.

01:24:57She quit for like, she quit for nine months and then she went back smoking again after

01:25:03her hip was healed up.

01:25:04So she's got COPD.

01:25:05She's quit for nine months and she's like, hey, you know, it'd be great.

01:25:08Cigarettes.

01:25:09Go back smoking again.

01:25:10Yep.

01:25:11Wowsie.

01:25:13She got a bit of a death wish.

01:25:16Yeah, I think in a way, yeah, she totally, she totally did because the last two years,

01:25:21all she talked about was, you know, the way the world was going.

01:25:24She, she was, she'd be happy to leave it.

01:25:26Yeah.

01:25:27No.

01:25:28Yeah, it's tough.

01:25:29It's tough.

01:25:30People who've got a bad conscience don't have strong life impulses.

01:25:36No, they really don't.

01:25:38So, so, so what age, sorry to interrupt.

01:25:41What age were you when you moved in with your mom?

01:25:45Uh, well, I'm 57 now.

01:25:50So that was, I moved in with her in 2014.

01:25:54So 10 years ago.

01:25:56Okay.

01:25:56So you'd say it's past any possibility of kids and all that kind of stuff, right?

01:26:01Oh yeah, totally.

01:26:02Oh, totally.

01:26:02Yeah.

01:26:02And did you have any baby rabies?

01:26:04Did you have any baby rabies in your thirties?

01:26:06Like a desire for kids or?

01:26:08Yeah.

01:26:09Yeah, I did.

01:26:10Um, with the last guy I did.

01:26:13Yeah.

01:26:15You know, especially, you know, when I saw that I, how, how good of a mom figure I could

01:26:19be.

01:26:19And I, one of the things that, like, I know you've, you know, briefly touched on this

01:26:25with me in the chats before, um, you know, and I've always kind of felt like a cautionary

01:26:30tale, you know, to younger girls, but I always got along really well with teenage girls.

01:26:35Like I could just, you know, I could talk to them and they'd talk to me and I'm still

01:26:40in touch with some of the, the girls that work, you know, the young youngsters that

01:26:44were working in the barn and stuff with me.

01:26:45And I'm still in touch with them and watch them have families and stuff.

01:26:49And, and, uh, and I think because I've had such a bond with the, the, the two kids that

01:26:55I was with in the last relationship, I realized, you know, I thought I'd be a terrible mother.

01:27:00I thought it'd be the kind of mother that would run away from her kids.

01:27:03And I thought I never wanted to put a child through, you know, a mother who acted like

01:27:07they resented them or hated them.

01:27:09I thought I can't do that to, to, to a kid.

01:27:12And I, I was so afraid I would abandon kids.

01:27:15And so I just didn't do that.

01:27:17Like, I just thought I'd be terrible at it.

01:27:19Yeah.

01:27:20How could I have a pair bonding if I never had a pair bonding?

01:27:22Although it's, it's biological, right?

01:27:25The pair bonding, you really have to work to screw up a pair bonding.

01:27:30And so we think, if I didn't grow up, if I didn't grow up speaking Japanese, how can

01:27:35I speak Japanese?

01:27:36But pair bonding isn't like that.

01:27:37Pair bonding is biological.

01:27:40It's like saying, it's like saying, uh, how can I learn how to have puberty when I never

01:27:44saw my mother go through puberty?

01:27:45It's like, no, that's a physical thing.

01:27:47Right?

01:27:47So pair bonding is a physical thing.

01:27:49But anyway, sorry, go ahead.

01:27:50Yeah, I just, no, it's okay.

01:27:52I just, uh, I, I just, I realized that now, like, uh, you know, and people have said to

01:27:56me, like, it's too bad.

01:27:57You would have been a wonderful mother.

01:27:59Right.

01:27:59Or so nurturing.

01:28:00And, you know, I look after my mother, my biggest tormentor.

01:28:04I looked after her, you know what I mean?

01:28:07In her old age.

01:28:08Right.

01:28:08So, so help me understand.

01:28:09It didn't protect me from it.

01:28:10Yeah.

01:28:11Help me understand that thinking.

01:28:12Of, I mean, so when did you first start listening to what I do?

01:28:17Uh, about a year before COVID struck.

01:28:21Okay.

01:28:21And by then I was in so deep and I, and when I listened to the Collins, I'm like, you know,

01:28:26I know now, like, I know, you know, if I didn't know then what I know now, I wouldn't have,

01:28:31I wouldn't have taken the route that I took.

01:28:34Um, but I just, you know, I'm a person of my word, you know, and, and I know now that

01:28:41I, I, it's weird.

01:28:43Um, like, I, I, I don't even know if I loved them.

01:28:49My parents, I think I was just so.

01:28:51You don't know if you loved them?

01:28:54I don't know, because I don't know if it's, if I.

01:28:57Sorry, why would you think.

01:28:58Because they weren't virtuous.

01:29:00No, but why would you, why would you even imagine you loved them?

01:29:06Um, because I was so attached to them.

01:29:11Well, okay.

01:29:12So, I mean, there's Stockholm syndrome, there's trauma bonding, there's, you know, you had no

01:29:17place to go when you were lonely.

01:29:19So, but love.

01:29:22Oh, yeah.

01:29:25Tell me, tell me what, tell me what you could possibly have loved about these people.

01:29:32I don't know.

01:29:32I just thought I did because you're supposed to.

01:29:36How could you not love your parents, right?

01:29:39You say that to most people, and they look at you with horror in their face,

01:29:42especially the people that, you know, and you talked about how your mother was so nice to

01:29:46strangers and stuff.

01:29:49My mom was the same way.

01:29:50She never let anybody see who she was.

01:29:53Yeah.

01:29:53You know, if, if, if they did, it was by accident.

01:29:58Yeah.

01:29:58You know, that makes it worse, right?

01:30:01Oh, totally.

01:30:02Yeah.

01:30:02I know it was, I know it was just trauma bonding.

01:30:05Like, I know that now.

01:30:07Like, I understand that.

01:30:10But by the time I really realized that, it felt like it was too late for me to extract

01:30:16myself out of the relationship, you know, out of the house, out of the whole thing.

01:30:21You know, and we were pretty peaceful, you know, it was a pretty peaceful household

01:30:28and predictable.

01:30:29And I think I was just so tired of having no predictability in my life.

01:30:33And it was safer for me to hide out from dating.

01:30:36And yeah, so I just was like, okay, I'm just going to life is peaceful right now.

01:30:43And I don't have to sleep with anybody.

01:30:45And I don't have to, I can just go to work.

01:30:47I can come home.

01:30:48I can do my thing.

01:30:49And she left me alone.

01:30:50Like, you know, she didn't bug me.

01:30:53It wasn't like she demanded that I do this and I do that.

01:30:55And I go over here and go there.

01:30:56Like, she wasn't like that.

01:30:57She just, it just felt harmonious for the first time.

01:31:01And so, like so many years.

01:31:05But again, I know it's because I was doing what she wanted.

01:31:07You know, I was taking care of everything and she didn't have to worry about stuff.

01:31:11And this went on for 10 years?

01:31:12I was giving her what she wanted.

01:31:14So this went on for 10 years?

01:31:16Yeah.

01:31:17And was there no dating?

01:31:19No, you didn't do anything with regards to dating?

01:31:23No, but you know what?

01:31:24I think I was, I got to, I think I was pretty turned off and then by that point too.

01:31:30Right.

01:31:30And I just, and I, you know, I wasn't taking as good a care, you know, I'm clean and,

01:31:36you know, tidy and I, you know, wear clean clothes and I care about how I look when I

01:31:40go out and that sort of thing.

01:31:41But I wasn't making the extra effort at all to even attract somebody.

01:31:46And did you get any flybys or approaches over the 10 years?

01:31:49Or were you putting off these signals like, don't approach?

01:31:53Yeah, well, you know, a couple of flybys, but the don't approach came on pretty quick.

01:32:00And I mean, I had a couple of friends try to set me up and two days later, the guy sent

01:32:04me a dick pic and I was like, oh, please.

01:32:08Like really?

01:32:09And I said to my friends, I said, do you think that little of me that you would, that's what

01:32:12I said to them.

01:32:13I said, do you think that little of me that you would try to hook me up with a person

01:32:17like this?

01:32:18And they were horrified.

01:32:19They had no idea that, you know, they just said, oh, you know, he's just so funny and

01:32:23nice and stuff.

01:32:23We thought you'd get along.

01:32:24And.

01:32:25So your friends have no judges?

01:32:27Yeah.

01:32:27Okay.

01:32:28Well, so they're not friends anymore.

01:32:31The circle has gotten small.

01:32:34Right.

01:32:35Yeah.

01:32:35And so was your mother's decline, was it sort of slow, then fast or a steady line down?

01:32:42Or how did it end?

01:32:44It was fairly steady.

01:32:45And then she had a bout of pneumonia in October and she ended up in the hospital for, you

01:32:55know, just a couple of days and she came home.

01:32:59And because of her lung issues and stuff, and she had a couple other things going on,

01:33:03they did a full panel of tests.

01:33:06And of course, they didn't see it.

01:33:09They either didn't say anything or they didn't say anything, but she just wasn't quite the

01:33:13same, like over December and January.

01:33:16And then she ended up back in the hospital in February.

01:33:20And apparently she'd been having some sort of chest pain and hadn't told me about it

01:33:24because now she was at a point where she didn't want to bug me or worry me, she said.

01:33:29Well, she also may have been at the point where life isn't fun and it's not getting

01:33:33better.

01:33:35No, she was definitely at that point because she told everybody but me that she didn't

01:33:39want to live anymore, that she was done, she was tired.

01:33:43And what did she do over 10 years?

01:33:45I mean, she wakes up, I mean-

01:33:48Well, she was a real social butterfly.

01:33:50I mean, she liked to garden and stuff like that.

01:33:53So she found and she liked to sit and chat with people.

01:33:58So everybody on her street knows her because she'd say hello and invite everybody over

01:34:03to sit down.

01:34:05And that just became more as she got older.

01:34:09She was always more social than I was.

01:34:11I was more like my dad.

01:34:12My dad wasn't a real introvert and I've always been kind of a loner.

01:34:16I had my own fun and I've always been okay with my own company and that sort of thing.

01:34:20Crowds wear me out.

01:34:24And I thought that was great.

01:34:25She's got people she can talk to and I don't have to be her entertainment.

01:34:30So it was never like she looked at me to entertain her.

01:34:32That's right.

01:34:35Yeah, and I'd pick up the flower because she didn't drive anymore.

01:34:40She had a car accident and that was the other thing that kind of buggered her up a little

01:34:45bit too.

01:34:46She'd had a car accident and then she just didn't feel confident to drive anymore.

01:34:50It wasn't her fault either.

01:34:51She got T-boned by somebody.

01:34:53Wow.

01:34:54And yeah, so then I mean, everybody on the street loved her and I was like, you know,

01:35:02the neighbor used to come over every day because she smokes too.

01:35:05And she'd come over like at three o'clock in the afternoon when it was nice out and

01:35:09they'd sit outside and smoke and chat, have a coffee.

01:35:15And so I didn't have to entertain her.

01:35:17She'd just leave me alone.

01:35:18And she knew like, you know, I come home and I got dinner and stuff.

01:35:22We had a real routine.

01:35:23Um, so I think what kind of stumped me up too is when she went into the hospital in

01:35:28February, like she just come in that morning and said, I'm having terrible chest pain.

01:35:33I, and it was so bad that she couldn't take it anymore.

01:35:36I think so.

01:35:37I thought she was having a heart attack.

01:35:39So I just did the heart attack protocol, called an ambulance.

01:35:41And when the ambulance came, he said, well, she's not having a heart attack, but she's

01:35:44really sick and we have to take her in.

01:35:47And I'm like, okay.

01:35:48So they took her in and x-rayed her and said she had pneumonia really bad.

01:35:53And, and I remember thinking relief because I had been kind of listening for her.

01:35:58She'd had a couple of falls.

01:35:59So I never really got to sleep at night unless I heard that she was, you know, she

01:36:05had gone to bed, you know what I mean?

01:36:08And so I think I felt relief when they said they were going to keep her for a couple of

01:36:12days while she never came, she never came home.

01:36:14Oh, and what happened?

01:36:18She was full of cancer.

01:36:19Oh gosh.

01:36:20Like lung cancer from smoking?

01:36:22Yeah.

01:36:22Probably right.

01:36:23Yep.

01:36:24She had a great big mass on her lung and, and they said it had metastasized.

01:36:27And I suspect that it was in her, her bones and her back.

01:36:30And I probably would have took her in before that, but she had always had a bad back, like

01:36:35I mentioned.

01:36:35And, and it seemed like her back was really bothering her.

01:36:38So, so I had called her doctor just to get her, you know, a better look at her.

01:36:42Just to get her, you know, a better painkiller than just regular old Tylenol.

01:36:46And so I thought, well, the combination of her back not being good and the new medication,

01:36:52not making her feel the best, I thought, well, maybe that's why she's, you know, looking

01:36:57really off.

01:36:57I didn't twig that there was something more serious going on.

01:37:01Well, I mean, it probably would have been.

01:37:02But she was gone within a month.

01:37:04Right.

01:37:05Yeah.

01:37:05She was probably beyond treatment at that point, right?

01:37:09Well, they didn't even offer treatment.

01:37:10Right.

01:37:11They just said, there's nothing they can do for you.

01:37:13We can just keep you comfortable.

01:37:15Of course, they offered us made.

01:37:17Oh, did they?

01:37:17Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:37:18She didn't believe in that.

01:37:19Oh, yeah.

01:37:19They offered us that like probably eight times.

01:37:22Wow.

01:37:24Yeah.

01:37:26Wow.

01:37:27And then I, I just said, no, let's, or she said no.

01:37:30And, and she said to me, if they, you know, if she said, or even if I'm begging you for

01:37:34it, she said, just no, that's not how, because she'd become a Christian.

01:37:37Yep.

01:37:38She said, I don't want to meet God that way.

01:37:41Right.

01:37:41It's her belief.

01:37:42I don't know whether she, whether she's real, you know, whether she ever really was a Christian

01:37:47or not, I'm not sure, but she was living by those standards, you know, in the last three

01:37:53or four years of her life.

01:37:55And she was much nicer, you know, but she had to be nice because she wasn't, I told

01:38:04her before, she'd had a blowout with me a few years back.

01:38:06And I said, you can't ever talk to me like that again.

01:38:10Because if you do, you're leaving.

01:38:12I'm not leaving.

01:38:14Right.

01:38:14Okay.

01:38:16Yeah.

01:38:17Wow.

01:38:18And how did you feel over the month?

01:38:20And then when she died, what was your experience of that?

01:38:24Awful.

01:38:26Just awful.

01:38:29Because I think that there was things that were never resolved because she, like she

01:38:33blamed me for what happened to me with my grandfather.

01:38:37She said it was my fault because I didn't let anybody know that it went on as long as

01:38:41it did.

01:38:41Sorry, sorry.

01:38:42So this is a bit of news.

01:38:43So you did finally tell him about your grandfather's groping?

01:38:48Yes, I did.

01:38:49Yeah.

01:38:50I, when my dad died, I waited till he died.

01:38:52And then I, and then I told her.

01:38:55Oh, so that was a long time back.

01:38:58Yeah.

01:38:59Yeah.

01:39:01And she was more angry at me than she was my grandfather.

01:39:05And he was, he'd been dead for a long time.

01:39:08I actually went to his grave and kicked the crap out of his headstone.

01:39:13Wow.

01:39:15People in the cemetery must've thought it was nuts.

01:39:19So this was in the 90s or early 2000s?

01:39:23No, this was, this was like 2014, 2015.

01:39:27I would have discussed that with her.

01:39:28So 2015, you discussed it with her?

01:39:32Yeah.

01:39:33Okay.

01:39:34So I finally, finally broke my silence.

01:39:36Yeah. So this is a couple of years after, a year after you moved in with her, right?

01:39:41Yeah.

01:39:42Like a year after dad died.

01:39:44About a year and a half after dad died.

01:39:46Okay. So you-

01:39:47He never knew.

01:39:48I never told him.

01:39:48No, I get that.

01:39:49So you move in with your mother and you say,

01:39:53Mm-hmm.

01:39:56Granddad, uh, and it was her father, right?

01:40:02No, it was his dad.

01:40:03His father, sorry.

01:40:04So granddad, um, was, was groping with me when I was in my early teens and she blamed you.

01:40:13Yeah.

01:40:14Because I never told her.

01:40:15So then-

01:40:15They couldn't do anything about it unless I told them.

01:40:19Well, so they didn't notice anything.

01:40:23You didn't notice that I'd stopped washing my hair.

01:40:27You didn't notice that, you know what I mean?

01:40:29Yeah.

01:40:30Because I started to do everything I could to repel attraction.

01:40:33Right. Right.

01:40:35So, yeah, they never asked you.

01:40:37And of course you're supposed to keep in touch with the kids and, you know,

01:40:40obviously ask how they're doing.

01:40:41Is there anything new?

01:40:42What's on your mind?

01:40:43You know, that kind of stuff, right?

01:40:44Especially when they get into their teens because the secrecy stuff kicks in and sometimes it's

01:40:48pretty bad, right?

01:40:50Yeah. And I mean, he did that way.

01:40:51He did that like pretty, he grabbed me well and like, I was, oh gosh, 21 when he passed away.

01:41:01And he did, he kept at it right up until that time.

01:41:05Oh, it was like 10 years or so, right?

01:41:07Oh, yeah. Yeah.

01:41:09And did you also tell him that, sorry, did you not tell your mother, I'm sure you did,

01:41:13that one of the reasons you didn't say anything was because you were afraid that-

01:41:17Yes.

01:41:17Your dad was going to go and kill him or beat him up or something, right?

01:41:20Oh, yeah. I was, I was transparent with her about that.

01:41:23I just said the way I looked at it, my whole life was, you know, crappy enough.

01:41:27I didn't, wasn't going to completely blow it to bits by divulging what was going on.

01:41:32And, you know, and she never said to me, well, you know, it wasn't your job to protect everybody.

01:41:37You know?

01:41:38No, she blamed you, right?

01:41:39Like, like you would hope she would say, yeah, she, she just said, well, you should-

01:41:42So she blamed you, she blamed you for being half molested or molested as a kid for a decade.

01:41:50She blamed you and you're like, in response to that,

01:41:53I'm going to take care of you for another nine years.

01:41:57Yeah, I know. Sick, isn't it?

01:41:59Well, I'm just, you know, so when you say to me, I'm not sure if I even loved them.

01:42:02I'm like, they failed to protect you and then blamed you after they exposed you.

01:42:07And she also did it in public, as you, as you mentioned.

01:42:11I'm sure he did it in front of your mother and father.

01:42:13Yeah, I don't know so much with them, but I think that there had to be,

01:42:19like, he was careful enough.

01:42:20He'd always approach me from the front.

01:42:23Oh, and then grab you.

01:42:24But there were so many people in the room.

01:42:26Yeah, yeah.

01:42:27I grabbed my breasts, you know, for, you know, I'd go in for the hug and then he'd

01:42:30kind of pull his elbows in and grab me, you know, but there had, there was enough people

01:42:34in the room.

01:42:35There had to be people seeing that.

01:42:36And to this day, I still can't, I still can't handle it.

01:42:39Like, I still, you know, I can't be grabbed suddenly.

01:42:42Right, right, right.

01:42:44So she blamed you for being victimized from the age of 11 or 12 onwards.

01:42:50And then you asked me, I don't even know if I love them.

01:42:56See what I mean?

01:42:56Like, that's where I'm at.

01:42:57Yeah, now propaganda is a powerful thing.

01:42:59I thought I, I thought I, I thought I loved them.

01:43:03No, it's attached.

01:43:05Wow, wow, wow.

01:43:07So how did you end up listening to what I do?

01:43:12Uh, well, I was a raging lefty for a long time and then I started digging around a bit.

01:43:23And then I'm not exactly sure how I stumbled upon your website, but I think you, you know,

01:43:28you were doing politics and you were, you know, you were, you were, you know, you were

01:43:34doing politics at the time.

01:43:36And, uh, you know, I think I just stumbled upon you and I listened to a couple of podcasts

01:43:43when back when you're on YouTube.

01:43:45And, uh, then when I was pretty much conservative by the point, by the time I found you, but I was

01:43:53trying to try to grab everything I could grab.

01:43:55It was just, you know, a thirst for truth.

01:43:58And then I started listening to a couple of your call-in shows and they really grabbed

01:44:03my attention because, you know, you were talking to people with similar backgrounds to mine

01:44:08and I had never heard it put that way before, like the whole forgiveness thing.

01:44:12Like I thought, you know, I thought, well, I've forgiven my grandfather and I've forgiven

01:44:17my mother and I've forgiven my dad.

01:44:18And, you know, so, you know, I got to move on from here sort of thing.

01:44:22And then it was one of your, your talks about forgiveness that really grabbed my attention

01:44:27because I'm a Christian and it's just been hammered into me by people that don't really

01:44:31know any better and people that don't really understand, you know, what God says about

01:44:36conviction or about, uh, forgiveness.

01:44:40You, you put it in a way that was just so much better.

01:44:43Like I, I understand now that it's a transaction between two people and that if it's never

01:44:48asked for by a perpetrator, then you can't possibly give what they haven't asked for,

01:44:53not even God.

01:44:54Well, and even them asking for it, even them asking for it, it's not enough.

01:44:59They have to show contrition.

01:45:01They have to make restitution.

01:45:02I mean, there's a whole deal there, right?

01:45:05And it's, it's weird to me because, yeah, God, God judges and doesn't forgive everyone

01:45:09for everything, no matter what.

01:45:10And somehow it's been translated that although God is the highest moral being and God requires

01:45:16you to earn forgiveness, you can just hand it out like candy at Halloween.

01:45:21Well, yeah, to me, it seems so arrogant to assume that you could do something that God

01:45:24can't do.

01:45:25Oh, won't you?

01:45:26Because he's moral, right?

01:45:27And you, you still have this, like, because, you know, I mean, God love you, but you're

01:45:32still like, well, they just don't know any better.

01:45:33And it's like, how do you know?

01:45:35They absolutely know better.

01:45:36They want, they want a free, they want carte blanche because they've got a bad conscience.

01:45:42Oh, I know that.

01:45:43I know that now.

01:45:44Like, especially, and your Peaceful Parenting book really put that into such perspective

01:45:49for me.

01:45:50Like, it was hard for me to get through it, listening to it.

01:45:52I can't imagine what it was like for you to write it.

01:45:54Yeah, it was tough.

01:45:55And it just, yeah, I, yeah, I can only imagine what that was like for you.

01:45:59Because I, like, I threw up a couple times.

01:46:02Yeah, tell me what was your experience?

01:46:04Because I'm not getting a huge amount of feedback.

01:46:06And I think it's because people are kind of shell-shocked.

01:46:08So, what was your experience with the book?

01:46:11Um, I, it just, I think it was, um, I was almost horrified to think that you were describing

01:46:22my life.

01:46:23And I've always thought my life is just this tiny insignificant little blip that doesn't

01:46:27matter to anyone or anything.

01:46:30You know, because if that was the case, then things would be different for me now.

01:46:33And I would have never put myself in some of the positions that I did.

01:46:37Um, but I realized, you know, just how failed I was, you know, all around me.

01:46:44And that we're conditioned to fail children.

01:46:47Well, not just fail, but it's such a large scale too.

01:46:49Yeah, it's sabotage.

01:46:51Yeah, uh, you set them up for failure, you know, like, and, and not even even a little

01:46:59bit for, for life.

01:47:00Like, it's just, yeah, it just blew my mind.

01:47:03I'm still, you know, I'm still listening, listening to it and going back and listening

01:47:07to other parts of it.

01:47:07Cause it's just like, wow.

01:47:11Right.

01:47:12Yeah.

01:47:12It's my, my boy is, you know, amazing that you did that.

01:47:16And I, and I, it's, it's weird because to me, like, I've been listening to it a lot

01:47:20since mom passed and it's like, wow, you know, thank God you're going to save other people

01:47:28from, from some of the, the, the choices that I've made, you know, to take care of

01:47:36aging parents who failed me and, you know, where I should have probably went no contact

01:47:41ages ago with a lot of the family.

01:47:45Right.

01:47:46Yeah.

01:47:47And I didn't, I remained engaged and, and, you know.

01:47:50Involved.

01:47:50I mean, more than engaged.

01:47:51I mean, you're right in there, right?

01:47:54Well, yeah.

01:47:54My brother says to me, I don't know how you could look after her.

01:47:56I could have never done it.

01:47:58Because he just flat out refused to, to, you know, and, you know, as she was sick, he'd

01:48:03come to the hospital and stuff and visit, but he's, you know, he's messed up too.

01:48:07He would never listen to you in a million years, just because I suggested it, you know,

01:48:11I mentioned you to him and I don't need any of that crap.

01:48:14And in fact, like, since she passed, he's like, well, you know, we've had a couple of

01:48:19conversations and stuff and, and I've, you know, touched, touched upon some of the ways

01:48:23that I was feeling and he's kind of, well, you got to get over that.

01:48:26You're an adult now.

01:48:27And I'm like, you don't understand.

01:48:29You don't just get over stuff.

01:48:30It's like, it never happened to you.

01:48:31Like it's how it happened to you.

01:48:34Yeah.

01:48:34It's sort of like saying to someone who grew up speaking English, well, you just got to

01:48:38stop understanding English.

01:48:39You're an adult now.

01:48:40It's like, you know, that's an automatic process.

01:48:42Like somebody can't speak to you in English when you grew up speaking English and you

01:48:45don't understand English, right?

01:48:47I mean, it's not, it's, it's, it's an automatic process, you know?

01:48:51I mean, you just got to get shorter.

01:48:52You're an adult now.

01:48:53It's like, no, that's a biological anyway.

01:48:55So yeah, it's strange.

01:48:57But one thing about it, like, he's, he's an awful lot like she was and an awful lot

01:49:01like his own father.

01:49:03I don't know whether he's ever hit women or anything, but, um, you know, and he's

01:49:07alone now too.

01:49:08And, you know, he's just decided he's never ever going to settle down or find anybody

01:49:12ever again.

01:49:13He's in his sixties, but he, uh, you know, he can be become extremely abusive.

01:49:18Like mom was like, he's got a hair trigger temper and stuff.

01:49:21And, and the last time around with him, I just said to him, you know, you can't talk

01:49:25to me that way ever again.

01:49:27You know, and he come back and apologize, look me in the eye, promised me it would

01:49:30never happen again.

01:49:31And he's, you know, in his way, he's tried to, to make it up.

01:49:35You know, like he was, I had a couple of nights with, you know, mom in the hospital.

01:49:39She was such a big presence in some ways that I just have so got so used to her being

01:49:44here.

01:49:45I just said, you know, I can't go back to that.

01:49:46I was by myself tonight.

01:49:47You know, do you mind packing a bag and hanging out with me?

01:49:51And he did, you know, he would have never done that in the past.

01:49:53He would have just said, oh, grow up.

01:49:54You know what I mean?

01:49:55Right.

01:49:56But it's funny to think that you can still, you can be in your sixties and still have

01:50:01a bad temper.

01:50:02Like you should have learned.

01:50:03I mean, and he's sitting there going, you should get over it.

01:50:05It's like, well, why don't you get over your bad temper?

01:50:08Yeah.

01:50:08Well, yeah.

01:50:09And that's the thing.

01:50:10Like he, you know, he just doesn't even, he doesn't even hear some of the things that

01:50:13he's coming out with.

01:50:14And I understand that.

01:50:15So I limit my time around them because I'm not really sure whether, you know, I have

01:50:19a really good relationship with his daughters and, you know, I like to see them and see

01:50:23my grandnieces and nephews and that sort of thing.

01:50:27And, you know, they, they lead pretty healthy lives from what I can tell.

01:50:31You know, the only unhealthy element in there is that I can really tell is him, you know,

01:50:36so I'm sure they have their issues and stuff too.

01:50:38But, you know, he, he was on the outs with my mom more than he was ever on the inside.

01:50:43So I missed some years there too, because, you know, he'd just make it so difficult for

01:50:47any of us to have contact with his kids that, you know, are really disconnected.

01:50:52Now I have one that lives 10 minutes away from me, he's the youngest.

01:50:55And it's nice to be able to see them and, you know, see the kids and stuff.

01:51:00Right.

01:51:01So I try to do that, you know.

01:51:03And how did you, how were you set up for old age?

01:51:07I mean, how do you feel about looking, you know, the next 30 years?

01:51:11Well, it horrifies me because, you know, I'm going to be alone, you know, like I've got

01:51:18a pretty good network of friends and that, and, you know, and I have my nieces, but,

01:51:25you know, my brother says, well, you know, they'll be there for you and stuff.

01:51:28Well, you know, not really counting on that.

01:51:31That's, they're your kids, not my kids, you know, and that's not really fair for me to

01:51:36put that on them.

01:51:37So I, you know, I've tried to start, you know, putting away, well, I've been putting away

01:51:41money for retirement and stuff, you know, for quite a while and that sort of thing.

01:51:45But I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life.

01:51:47Like I'd like to find somebody, but I, I understand that the odds of finding a quality

01:51:53man are pretty low, you know, because a man that's quality, he can always marry younger.

01:51:59He could always, he could restart a family at my age.

01:52:02Well, and he's not looking for somebody like me.

01:52:04If he's quality, he's going to stay with whoever picked him, right?

01:52:07And he's going to stay with, probably involved.

01:52:09Yeah, yeah, either that or if he, you know, finds himself widowed or something, he's,

01:52:13you know, he's probably going to be looking for a younger model, you know?

01:52:16Well, and you also, having been out of relationships for 10 years plus,

01:52:23you would have lost a lot, lost some habits and may not have developed others, right?

01:52:28Oh, absolutely.

01:52:29Yeah, I get that.

01:52:30And it's funny, like, it's, it's astonishing to me, like, how I can kind of understand

01:52:37that and it's just reality, you know, that his, you know, a man could be older and find,

01:52:42find a new wife, but it doesn't work the same way for older women.

01:52:46And when I point that out to people, you know, that I, not that I'm resigned to it,

01:52:50but I understand that the, you know, my odds are, are not as good.

01:52:55Why do they ever get mad?

01:52:56That's not true.

01:52:57You'll find somebody.

01:52:58And it's like, yeah, but I, I gotta be realistic about this.

01:53:02Well, I have to bring something to the table.

01:53:05The fifties are like the twenties in that for the twenties, things are much easier for

01:53:09women.

01:53:10And then in the, in your fifties, things are much easier for men or maybe forties or fifties

01:53:13or something like that.

01:53:14But yeah, it just, it just flips like life balances out, right?

01:53:17Well, and I was thought ahead all the time in the world too.

01:53:20Well, you do when you're younger and I know better now, like, you know, it would be lovely

01:53:25to find somebody, but I understand that the pickings are going to be really slim, you

01:53:29know, especially I got pretty high standards for myself now too.

01:53:33Yeah.

01:53:34And I think quality guys, yeah, quality guys, when they get older, get kind of swarmed and

01:53:38it's a, it's pretty tough to settle down when you're getting swarmed.

01:53:41It's kind of the same thing that happens to women in their twenties, right?

01:53:44Yes.

01:53:45Of course the tables get turned for sure.

01:53:47Right.

01:53:48Yeah, for sure.

01:53:48But I think part of it too, like, you know, with the stuff with my mother, I thought that

01:53:54when I got out of the last relationship, I wasn't even close to being equipped to being

01:53:57in a relationship.

01:53:58And it was kind of like, okay, well, you know, I'm just going to work on my stuff with God

01:54:03in the meantime and try to make sure that I don't repeat the same mistakes again.

01:54:08Well, sometimes, you know, you either got a shit or get off the pot too.

01:54:13What do you mean?

01:54:15Well, you can't, if I'm not putting myself out there to meet somebody, I can't meet somebody

01:54:20while I'm working on myself.

01:54:21Do you know what I mean?

01:54:23Like it's so much time can pass you by while you're working on yourself.

01:54:27I know I'm looking at it now.

01:54:28I'm going, you know what, just being, you know, you're using an excuse.

01:54:32Right.

01:54:33So.

01:54:35And what is it that you would want to say the most?

01:54:37You said that you've good relationships with the younger women and so on.

01:54:42What is it that you would want to say?

01:54:43What's the speech that you want to say the most to younger women?

01:54:47Date for marriage.

01:54:49If you want a family, that's the most important thing because the way our world is headed,

01:54:53we need good people in it.

01:54:55You know, we need good people that care about families and about raising good kids and being

01:55:00peaceful parents.

01:55:02And don't wait because when you're in your 30s, so much of your time has passed you by

01:55:07and your eggs are gone.

01:55:08And, you know, and I'm just upfront and honest with when kids ask me about that.

01:55:13You know, if I say kids like teenage girls and stuff, like one day there was a guy that

01:55:18works with us and he was telling them, oh, they should be sleeping around and have a

01:55:21career and, you know, screw as many men as possible.

01:55:25And he's a guy that I kind of respected.

01:55:27And I looked at him, I said, that is terrible advice.

01:55:30That is the worst advice that you could be giving these young girls.

01:55:34And then, you know, this turned into almost a rant with me because I was like, do you

01:55:39understand what that's like for young girls?

01:55:41That's a pair bonding mechanism.

01:55:43Just sleeping around and having casual sex is a terrible idea.

01:55:48So, yeah, it was.

01:55:51Yeah, it's a funny kind of thing because we've sort of been taught that men and women are

01:55:55just like interchangeable body parts or something like that.

01:55:58Like with the same people, some people have outies, some people have innies and it's just

01:56:03not true.

01:56:04And so for men, I think they say, well, I would like to have a career and sleep with

01:56:08a lot of women.

01:56:09And so I'm sure it's great for women to have the same thing.

01:56:12It's kind of like the Sheryl Sandberg thing from Leaning In, like, yeah, go and experiment

01:56:15and do this and do that.

01:56:18And I know this guy is unhappy in his in his relationship, so that's why he's offering

01:56:23that advice, because he's, you know, he's feeling frustrated and trapped where he is.

01:56:28So, you know.

01:56:30Well, and men like to encourage women to sleep around in the hopes they'll get some.

01:56:34Of course they do.

01:56:35Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:56:36Of course they do.

01:56:37We're a little bit of sneaky dogs that way.

01:56:40Yeah, yeah.

01:56:41And I get all, you know, I understand that having been on the other end of that.

01:56:44Ladies, just lower your standards until they...

01:56:47Right, yeah, yeah, for sure.

01:56:51Yeah, for sure.

01:56:53Yeah, absolutely.

01:56:53It's that way.

01:56:54So I, yeah, I just, I kind of look back over, not so much my life, but my choices from my,

01:57:04you know, my 20s into where I am now as a cautionary tale for young women, you know.

01:57:09So, like, I love that you have these conversations, because it just, I know, you never know who

01:57:15you're helping or who, you know, who's listening.

01:57:18Oh, yeah.

01:57:18Like, honestly, out of this conversation, thousands of babies will spring over time,

01:57:22if not more.

01:57:23Oh, I hope so.

01:57:24You know, we are summoning life.

01:57:25My hope.

01:57:26Yeah, yeah.

01:57:27That's my hope.

01:57:27Words make babies, so.

01:57:30Yeah, and I don't like, I can't have any of my own.

01:57:32So I, you know, I try to be a good aunt, and I try to mentor the younger girls around me

01:57:37as much as I can.

01:57:39And it's been wonderful to, you know, even before I knew what I know now, I did that

01:57:44a lot in my previous places of employment.

01:57:47You know, I was always a soft place to fall for the teenage girls that were around me.

01:57:53And, you know, they'd open up and tell me what was going on, and they just felt heard.

01:58:00Because I never had that, you know.

01:58:01Right.

01:58:02So what do you mean when you say to the young girls, you say, date for marriage?

01:58:05I mean, I'm sure that some women, younger women, won't even know really what that means.

01:58:11So what does that mean?

01:58:13Well, look for a potential husband.

01:58:17You know, if you don't see husband material in a guy, then maybe he's…

01:58:19No, I get that.

01:58:21I get that date for marriage means look for a husband.

01:58:23That's just another way of saying the same thing.

01:58:24But what are you looking for?

01:58:26What specific things are you looking for?

01:58:32If I was me back then, you mean?

01:58:36Or if I was at that age, what does that mean?

01:58:40But how do they know what to look for?

01:58:43Especially if they grew up with unstable marriages, or maybe dads who weren't the

01:58:46best examples, or like, what does that mean?

01:58:50Date for marriage.

01:58:55Just trying to think back, you know, or I'm trying to think of what I would be looking

01:58:59for now if I was in their age.

01:59:02Somebody that comes from a good family.

01:59:06Or there isn't, they don't have horrific abuse.

01:59:11You know, watch the interactions between kids and their parents.

01:59:14You can garner a lot, you know, like meet the family.

01:59:17Yeah, so look for a stable family.

01:59:19Look for a good family, I think.

01:59:20Yeah, yeah, look for a good family.

01:59:25Somebody that wants children, you know.

01:59:28Right, right, right.

01:59:29Looks forward to being a father.

01:59:32Somebody who is aware of what, you know, what the world is like around us and, you know,

01:59:39doesn't want to, you know, I want to make sure that when they raise their kids, they're

01:59:43not putting them in, you know, in public schools and things like that.

01:59:48A good provider, you know, somebody that can provide.

01:59:54Not necessarily like a, I think the term alpha male gets thrown around an awful lot, but

02:00:00somebody who's, you know, who's a leader and has integrity, you know, is honest or

02:00:09says what they mean and means what they say.

02:00:13You know, find out what their values are like.

02:00:16What do they value?

02:00:17Do they value family?

02:00:18Do they value money?

02:00:20You know, do they value a big government or a small government, you know?

02:00:23Yeah, free will versus control.

02:00:26Yeah.

02:00:26And looks, right?

02:00:27So you went for the muscle guy with the cool car and then you put on 80 pounds and turned

02:00:31into a cash law.

02:00:32For sure, yeah, for sure.

02:00:33Yeah, I was just thinking about that.

02:00:35I think because I focus so much on physicality my whole life, it's not my first go-to anymore.

02:00:40I'm like, okay, well, that got you a lot of places, didn't it?

02:00:43Yeah, but I, yeah, somebody fit.

02:00:45Yeah, for sure.

02:00:46Well, as you said, you were a pretty, you were a pretty petite young woman.

02:00:51And so there was probably a lot of looks maxing exchange going back on.

02:00:57It like looks great together.

02:01:00Yeah, for sure.

02:01:01For sure it was.

02:01:02I mean, that's what I always thought.

02:01:03You just got to find the most attractive person and that's it.

02:01:06Just as Jesus says.

02:01:11First commandment, go for the hottie.

02:01:14Yeah, yeah.

02:01:16Now, if you say that, and I accept what you're saying, of course, right?

02:01:21You say that go for a guy who wants kids, but the Australian guy wanted kids.

02:01:24So what was wrong with him that you didn't want to, because it's got to be something

02:01:29within yourself, right?

02:01:32You know, I look back at both of my marriages and I think that if I was mean, like, you

02:01:39know, if I knew then what I know now, I probably, like, I may have still been with my first

02:01:45husband and we may have had a family.

02:01:48Well, did he want kids?

02:01:50Yeah.

02:01:50Okay.

02:01:50So you probably would have had a family and certainly with the Australian, if you'd

02:01:54surrendered to the thunder from down under, you'd have been okay, right?

02:01:57I mean, as far as kids.

02:01:58Yeah, yeah.

02:01:59And even him, like he was really looking for a way to deal with what was going on with

02:02:03him.

02:02:03Like he, you know, he, when we broke up, he went right into therapy and stuff.

02:02:08And he, you know, he kept coming back and begging me to take him back.

02:02:11Like he got on his knees one day and it was heartbreaking.

02:02:14Oh my gosh, so the guy went to therapy, did the whole self-knowledge thing and is begging

02:02:19you to come back.

02:02:20Yeah, but I was already with the other guy now.

02:02:22Sorry, was this before you divorced or were you just separated?

02:02:27No, we were separated at the time.

02:02:29We weren't even divorced, but I had already taken up with the guy from the other side

02:02:32of the country by then.

02:02:33So it was like, oh, I got somebody new now.

02:02:35I don't need you anymore.

02:02:37Wow.

02:02:37You know, I look back upon it now, like some of my choices are just awful.

02:02:42Right.

02:02:43Yeah.

02:02:44I mean, I would never just give up on it.

02:02:46Now, meanwhile, the only thing I could say to my credit there was that, you know, when

02:02:50things were going bad before I ever took up with anybody, I wanted to go to therapy with

02:02:56him and he wouldn't go.

02:02:57And I went on, so I went on my own.

02:03:00Oh, you went on your own to a therapist before you split with the Australian guy.

02:03:03And what happened with that?

02:03:06He just would never go.

02:03:08No, no.

02:03:08What happened with you and the therapist?

02:03:09Oh, with me and the therapist?

02:03:12When I reflect on it now, I sat there, did a lot of talking.

02:03:16They did a lot of listening.

02:03:17But there wasn't, I don't remember ever being given any homework or, you know, you should

02:03:26be journaling.

02:03:26I mean, I know now how important journaling can be and that sort of thing, because I do

02:03:30it every morning now.

02:03:32And did they say, did the therapist say, look, this is a guy, he's not abusive, he's got

02:03:40some problems, but so do you.

02:03:42But you're married, you're in your mid to late 20s.

02:03:44Maybe it's not the best time to go courting someone new.

02:03:47The pickings out there are getting slimmer and you're getting older.

02:03:51And nothing like that.

02:03:52Wow.

02:03:53Nothing like that.

02:03:54No, nothing like that.

02:03:55It was just, you know, it felt like it was OK.

02:03:59How long can we make this stretch out and how much money can I make, you know, after

02:04:03the stretching out of, you know, and I've heard different people say that about therapists

02:04:08where they've gone in and it's like, it's taken them like, you know, three months to

02:04:11get through their childhood just explaining it.

02:04:13And then, you know, but they're still not getting any feedback or, you know, useful

02:04:18information where they could start working towards, you know, making different choices,

02:04:23because I know it's not about healing.

02:04:25I mean, you can't, you know, it's like a scab, you know, you rip it off and it heals

02:04:31back.

02:04:31But there's always a scar there.

02:04:32Do you know what I mean?

02:04:33Oh, yeah.

02:04:33Yeah.

02:04:33No, I mean, this navel gazing stuff where you're just paying someone to listen to you

02:04:37and dwelling on your problems can make them worse.

02:04:39And like, sometimes you just need practical advice to move on.

02:04:42And that doesn't seem to be coming much anymore.

02:04:44Well, I just felt like I was doing more stuff on my own because it was kind of reading,

02:04:48you know, self-help books and trying to follow the exercises.

02:04:51And that I felt like I was taking more of an active role in trying to change things

02:04:57and make things better for us.

02:04:59And, you know, like I offered him a book one day and he threw it across the room.

02:05:02Like, you know, like, you know, the therapist.

02:05:04Yeah, the Australian.

02:05:05Okay, just checking.

02:05:07Yeah, sorry.

02:05:08Oh, so he had his anger issues too, right?

02:05:11He really did.

02:05:11And I know now why.

02:05:13I mean, he was looking for a way out of it.

02:05:15I know a funny part of it is, you know, and he was on his knees saying he would do anything.

02:05:20You know, I'm a Christian now.

02:05:21If I'd have said to him, well, then let's go to church and talk to our pastor.

02:05:25Yeah.

02:05:25He would have done it.

02:05:26I know he would have.

02:05:27He was begging you to save him from himself, right?

02:05:30Yes.

02:05:30Yeah, he didn't want.

02:05:31And he told me, he said, I just hate myself afterwards when I have a,

02:05:35when I have a, you know, a blow up like that.

02:05:37I'm so sorry.

02:05:38I didn't mean to, you know, throw things and yell.

02:05:40Well, you can't bring kids into that.

02:05:42If he says he wants kids and he's raging out like that, that's no good.

02:05:45Sure.

02:05:46Well, absolutely.

02:05:47Did you ever look, have you ever looked people up?

02:05:50I did try to look him up.

02:05:53Um, now my, my first tax, uh, you know, we stayed in contact for a little while on Facebook when

02:06:00Facebook became a thing and funny, well, not funny, but he ended up marrying a drug addict.

02:06:06Um, they had a child and he ended up with full custody and she's not even allowed to,

02:06:11I don't know if it's changed now, but she wasn't allowed to see their little girl.

02:06:16Wow.

02:06:16So yeah.

02:06:17And he ended up raising her on his own.

02:06:20And you know, he was the kind of guy that could, I think, you know, could do that.

02:06:24Fairly well, but I, you know,

02:06:26Well, no, you, no, you can't do that.

02:06:27All right.

02:06:28You can't do that well, because he's got to work, right?

02:06:31Yeah.

02:06:31I just mean that, you know, he's, he's the kind of, he's a good man, like, you know,

02:06:36kind, kind man.

02:06:37And, and, you know,

02:06:38Well, no, but he still has to work, right?

02:06:39So someone's got to take care of the kid.

02:06:42Yeah, for sure.

02:06:42Yeah.

02:06:43Of course there's going to be daycare and stuff like that.

02:06:45Yeah.

02:06:46Okay.

02:06:46And, and the Australian?

02:06:49Um, I can't find him.

02:06:51He's despawned.

02:06:53Yeah.

02:06:54Well, I think he went back to the down under.

02:06:56Well, that doesn't mean anything.

02:06:58I bet you can find people.

02:07:00I mean, maybe.

02:07:01No, but he was never on social media or anything like that.

02:07:04I did look up one of his siblings once and sent her a message, but I never heard anything back.

02:07:08Right, right.

02:07:09Um, so I, you know, he was pretty bitter, you know, after a while about the whole thing.

02:07:13And I understand that.

02:07:15Sure.

02:07:15How long ago did you message her?

02:07:18Uh, gosh, like five years ago.

02:07:22Right, right.

02:07:23Okay.

02:07:24And now I don't see any of them.

02:07:25They don't pop up on, on social media at all.

02:07:29And I, yeah, he never had a, he had a younger brother, but I don't remember what the last

02:07:35name was because the mother had remarried.

02:07:37Right, right.

02:07:37Okay.

02:07:38Yeah.

02:07:39Yeah, it's fine.

02:07:40But I did try, I did try to find them.

02:07:41And I did contact some people that were in the same industry.

02:07:44And they just said, as far as they knew that he got out of the business and had moved back

02:07:48home.

02:07:49And was there any other exes that you've, what about the guy on the other side of the

02:07:54country?

02:07:56Yeah, I want nothing.

02:07:57I put no contact with him probably about a year after I left.

02:08:00Right, right.

02:08:00And you've never looked him up?

02:08:02Yeah.

02:08:03Okay.

02:08:05All right.

02:08:07Okay.

02:08:08So, because the reason, I mean, one of the reasons looking back is important is you want

02:08:12to know whether you made a good or bad decision, right?

02:08:14And if the guy.

02:08:15Oh, for sure.

02:08:16Yeah.

02:08:16If your first husband ended up marrying a drug addict and got full custody, then I

02:08:20assume that was just hell on earth.

02:08:22And of course, that wouldn't happen if you'd stayed married, but that's the nature, right?

02:08:25That, that's, that's the play you were working with, so to speak.

02:08:29Yeah.

02:08:30Yeah, for sure.

02:08:32Yeah, I mean, I, I did when we did, like, when we did, did contact one another on Facebook,

02:08:39you know, I did say to him, you know, I'm, I'm really, really sorry, you know, for some

02:08:43of the things I said and, and that I, you know, I did apologize about the kids thing

02:08:50too, because I said, you know, I know how much you wanted kids and you just went along

02:08:55with what I wanted.

02:08:56And that was fair, unfair, because that wasn't even, you know, I kind of led him on to believe

02:09:02that maybe if we got married, that we might.

02:09:04Oh gosh.

02:09:05Which was, yeah, that was a terrible thing to do.

02:09:07So you led him to believe you might want kids or that was on the table.

02:09:10Yeah, I might.

02:09:11When for you, it wasn't.

02:09:12Well, I pretty, you know, I said to him, I, you know, I don't think I want kids.

02:09:16I don't think that's ever going to change, but who knows what the future holds.

02:09:20I was so vague about it that, you know, but if, you know, if that's what he really wanted,

02:09:26he should have said, you know what, I think I'll bail while the going is good and find

02:09:30somebody with good ovaries.

02:09:32So, you know, it's, I can't take full responsibility for it because I can take something because

02:09:38I was vague.

02:09:39No, but were you vague and honest or were you vague and dishonest?

02:09:45No, I was vague and honest.

02:09:47Oh, so you thought maybe it would happen?

02:09:49Yeah, I thought maybe I'll change my mind in a couple of years or whatever, but, you

02:09:53know, I thought maybe it just hasn't, you know, maybe the bug just hasn't struck yet.

02:09:57You know, I just didn't know.

02:09:58I mean, it was just so.

02:10:02And what about Mr. Muscle Car Predator Guy?

02:10:06I still keep in touch with his sister, but I have no contact with him.

02:10:12I'm not, not close touch.

02:10:14No, no, interesting.

02:10:16And do you know how his life played?

02:10:18Yeah, he got married and had two kids and, and she said that, you know, she has never

02:10:23been able, never been able to mention my name around him without him flying off the handle.

02:10:28Right.

02:10:29Because he was really angry.

02:10:31Like he stalked me for a while after, after we, after I left him.

02:10:34Right.

02:10:36Yeah, he was not happy.

02:10:37And he stayed married and all?

02:10:39I don't know about that.

02:10:41I don't ask about him.

02:10:42Okay.

02:10:43Okay.

02:10:44Got it.

02:10:45I don't maybe speak to her, like, wish her a Merry Christmas.

02:10:48Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:10:48That's about it.

02:10:49You know what I mean?

02:10:49Yeah.

02:10:50Real, real, real distant acquaintance stuff.

02:10:52Right.

02:10:53Very distant acquaintance.

02:10:54Yeah.

02:10:54Wow.

02:10:55It's quite a tale, man.

02:10:56I'm, I'm obviously incredibly sorry for everything that happened to you as a child.

02:10:59That was a monstrous, monstrous hellscape of an upbringing.

02:11:04And shockingly common.

02:11:06I mean, really, there's almost no ACE outside of having a family member in prison that I

02:11:11know of.

02:11:12There's almost no ACE that you didn't check off.

02:11:15Right.

02:11:16Yeah.

02:11:17Addiction, violence, verbal abuse, molestation, you know, bullying at school, seeing parents

02:11:25fight.

02:11:26Like, there's almost nothing that could be bad that didn't happen.

02:11:30And I'm just, I'm so sorry for all of that.

02:11:32What an absolute shit show of an origin story.

02:11:37It's just absolutely appalling.

02:11:39I'm sorry, not just, of course, for the screwed up family stuff, but just, you know, that

02:11:44you live in a society where this happens, nobody really talks about it, and everyone

02:11:49just says, oh yeah, no, the people who, yeah, the people who treated you really badly and

02:11:57were supposed to be taking care of you, those people, boy, you owe them everything.

02:12:03Right.

02:12:04That's wild, right?

02:12:06Yeah.

02:12:07And that's one of the reasons why, you know, I'm so desperate to improve families, and

02:12:11this is why there's this whole section in the book on the peaceful family, peaceful

02:12:14parenting.

02:12:15It's a voluntary family.

02:12:16It's like, because parents believe that society is just going to herd the kids back and force

02:12:22them to take care of them no matter what, they don't have to provide any good service.

02:12:27It's like the DMV or whatever.

02:12:28They don't, there's no choice, there's no options, there's no voluntary situation here,

02:12:33so they can do whatever they want.

02:12:35And they know that, I mean, and it paid off for your mom.

02:12:39You know, she didn't have to deal with her demons when she was younger, and she got 10

02:12:42years of free in-house care when she got old.

02:12:46So, you know, there was no downside for her in a way.

02:12:50Yeah.

02:12:51Yeah.

02:12:51Oh, yeah, there really wasn't.

02:12:53Paid off.

02:12:54She rolled the dice, and she rolled it.

02:12:56Yeah, and I still wonder, like, how do some people just go through life?

02:13:00You know, I know that she had, you know, her own pain and her own torture and that sort

02:13:05of stuff.

02:13:05I get all that, but again, you know, she ended up with a kid that ended up taking care of

02:13:12her.

02:13:12Well, and of course, her caring for you should have been, get out.

02:13:20You know, my life is my life.

02:13:22I made my choices.

02:13:23You shouldn't suffer.

02:13:24You're going to lose, you know, this is, you know, 47 to 57.

02:13:28You're going to sort of age out of the dating market.

02:13:30And, you know, wherever there are men, they're not here in this little apartment.

02:13:34So, you've got to get out there.

02:13:35You know, don't just hang home with me, wiping my butt and mouth, like, go out there and

02:13:40try and find a good guy, right?

02:13:43I mean, so she just kind of did that alien face hugging thing and just like, oh, 10 years,

02:13:50I'll burn those up because it's good for me.

02:13:53Like she said to me, get out there and date and stuff, you know, go find somebody.

02:13:56But I know if I'd have brought somebody home that she would have found something wrong

02:13:59with them because it would have threatened, you know, what she was getting.

02:14:03Like, I know.

02:14:04Well, and of course, the other thing too, I mean, you bring a quality guy home and it's

02:14:09like, here's my bitter, abusive, half-dead mother and let's sign up.

02:14:17Right, yeah.

02:14:18Yeah, again, it still wasn't safe to bring anybody home just like it was when I was a

02:14:22kid, right?

02:14:22Right, right.

02:14:24Yeah, so she was giving you instructions that she would have sabotaged, I assume, if you'd

02:14:28followed them.

02:14:29Yeah.

02:14:31Yeah, I'm pretty, you know, you've helped me, I got to tell you, like, you've helped

02:14:36me so much, not just with this stuff, but also with surrounding myself with people that

02:14:41are going to be honest with me, like, you know, I got a couple of close friends and

02:14:46they're very, you know, honest with me about, you know, what she is like, because they had

02:14:52seen it, you know, even without me explaining my childhood, like, you know, she made a

02:14:57couple of comments and they were like, that's a terrible thing to say to your kid.

02:15:01She's here looking after you and that's what you say to her?

02:15:04Like, and I mean, one time, you know, she, my friend yanked me aside and said, wait a

02:15:09minute, like, you know, like you would, you know, shouldn't tolerate that for two seconds.

02:15:15What did she say that dear friend was pulling you aside?

02:15:19Well, my friend, my friend had, like, I'm not, I'm not skinny anymore, like I used to

02:15:25be.

02:15:25I'm not like, you know, not obese or anything like that.

02:15:28But my mom was always placed, you know, kind of placed really high value on what people

02:15:34look like.

02:15:35And, you know, my friend had just dropped about 50 pounds and, you know, look, she's

02:15:41blonde and beautiful anyway, but, you know, she, my mom asked her how much weight she

02:15:48lost.

02:15:48And she told her, my mom looked over at me and she said, well, what's your problem?

02:15:51Why can't you drop at least 10 pounds?

02:15:53She dropped 50.

02:15:55And my friend was just appalled.

02:15:58Well, this is the woman who can't even put down a cigarette when she's got COPD.

02:16:03Where's your willpower, kid?

02:16:05She was, you know, probably 40 or 50 pounds overweight herself.

02:16:09Oh, gosh, right.

02:16:10Yeah.

02:16:11So, like, what a hypocrite, right?

02:16:14Right, right.

02:16:16And it's funny because whenever she would say something about somebody's weight, like

02:16:21the hairs would stand up on, like the hackles, I guess, would stand up and I'd get defensive

02:16:25and indignant on the behalf of that person.

02:16:28You know what I mean?

02:16:29Well, how much extra do you think you're carrying?

02:16:33Probably about 30 pounds.

02:16:36Right, right.

02:16:36Well, and 411, that's a lot, right?

02:16:39That's a lot.

02:16:39Yeah, yeah.

02:16:40So, yeah, it is.

02:16:42Yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm not pleased about that.

02:16:44And I've taken some steps.

02:16:46And are you still moving?

02:16:48Are you still moving for your job?

02:16:51Like, physically moving, like, exercise for your job?

02:16:55Yeah, I have a very physical job.

02:16:57And, yeah, it's one of the things I like.

02:17:00I don't like a job where I'm sitting at a desk.

02:17:02Like, I'm moving.

02:17:04Like, I'm putting in a lot of steps.

02:17:05Walking around while we're talking.

02:17:06Walking and talking.

02:17:07Yeah, like, I put in a lot of steps.

02:17:09I normally would be up and walking.

02:17:11But I'm sitting right now because I want to focus on what you're telling me.

02:17:15Right.

02:17:15And think about it.

02:17:17And if the right guy came along, would you give it a shot?

02:17:21Absolutely.

02:17:22Right.

02:17:23I wouldn't hesitate.

02:17:24Well, then you've got to drop the weight.

02:17:25Like, I don't mean to sound like your mom.

02:17:27Of course, right?

02:17:28I mean, I don't mean to sound like your mom.

02:17:29No, and it's funny because I even said to my friend, you know, my closest friend,

02:17:33I said, you know, I need to make myself marketable.

02:17:35Yes, yeah, you've got to get back in the saddle, so to speak.

02:17:38And I have to work even harder at it now because I'm older and stuff.

02:17:40Yeah, yeah.

02:17:41I don't want to, you know, but I'm still fairly light with makeup and that sort of thing.

02:17:46I don't like scads and scads of makeup.

02:17:49I'd like to be fit.

02:17:50And, you know, I don't want to marry somebody and then not be there for them in 10 years.

02:17:56You know what I mean?

02:17:57Right.

02:17:57No, I mean, yeah, when you're looking for the top tier, you've got to be the top tier, right?

02:18:03And if you've got a lot of competition, then you need to find some way to stand out.

02:18:07You know, whether we like it or not, men are just visual creatures.

02:18:10It just is the way that we are.

02:18:12No, I 100%, I 100% get that.

02:18:14I mean, and that's the thing, like, you've really helped me understand that whole dynamic,

02:18:19too, and that I have to up my game if I'm going to attract the right guy.

02:18:24I mean, I'm not giving up.

02:18:26You know, I go to church and I'm hoping to meet somebody there, you know?

02:18:30Right, right.

02:18:30So, it's a new church, so there's, you know, I don't really know that many people yet.

02:18:35I was going to church for quite a while, and then when the COVID thing happened,

02:18:39they demanded jabs and masking and stuff, and I was like, you know, and I'd been going there

02:18:45for a while, and I was like, really?

02:18:46I'm not welcome at my home, you know, I consider it a home of believers.

02:18:51So, Jesus catches lepers, but I have to wear a mask.

02:18:54I got it, right.

02:18:55Well, not just that.

02:18:56It was, you had to have jabs, too, and I was not doing that.

02:19:00Yeah, well, listen, you've obviously got a lot to offer,

02:19:03and I wouldn't, I'd be confident about that.

02:19:06I mean, you're obviously highly intelligent.

02:19:08You're a great conversationalist, great verbal skills.

02:19:10You've done therapy.

02:19:11You've got self-knowledge.

02:19:13And so, you have a lot to offer, and I certainly, if I were in your shoes, I'd be comfortable with

02:19:20that, be confident with that.

02:19:21And, you know, if you get the outside to match the inside, then, you know, you've got the

02:19:28highest shot, you know, and that's all we can ever ask in life is that we can't guarantee

02:19:32anything, but we can give, you know, I can't guarantee how long I'm gonna live, but I can

02:19:37say whether I keep my weight down and go to the gym.

02:19:38Like, that's that I can do, right?

02:19:40So.

02:19:41Absolutely.

02:19:42So, yeah, I mean, if you can work on that stuff, then, you know, your odds are good,

02:19:47because you'll just be different from everyone else.

02:19:49And you are different from, I mean, you're into philosophy and self-knowledge, and you've

02:19:53obviously gained some great wisdom out of your life, and you have broken the cycle.

02:19:58And in that, also, you're a great aunt and so on, right?

02:20:01So, yeah, I mean, fantastic stuff.

02:20:04And, you know, I just have to bow down, as we all do, before the fact that men are visual

02:20:09creatures, and you'll be a way to the races, I think.

02:20:12Yeah.

02:20:13Yes, absolutely.

02:20:13Yeah, I just want to hear the truth, and that's when I know I get that from you, so.

02:20:19Yeah.

02:20:20Yeah, I mean, my mom was skinny, and unfortunately, a lot of men seem to say,

02:20:26okay, skinny, crazy, I'll go with the skinny, right?

02:20:29So, you know, skinny, insane, or at least slender, insane, is an unbeatable combo.

02:20:34So, yeah, that's my sort of whatever nonsense advice, but yeah, just be confident in the

02:20:39value you have to offer.

02:20:40And, you know, and failing all of that, you'll find some guy who's 75 and then

02:20:46inherits his house.

02:20:49Right?

02:20:49So, I had this conversation, I remember this from many years ago, I had this conversation

02:20:55with this woman who was like, you know, basically, I'm dating this guy, he's got a great house,

02:20:58but he just won't die.

02:21:01It's like, you know, so you're hoping to own property by banging a Nazgul.

02:21:04Like, it just, it was pretty wild.

02:21:07I'm not putting you in that category, but that was a sad story, man.

02:21:11People do say that to me, you know, just in passing, you'll find some rich guy now that

02:21:16can look after you.

02:21:17Yeah, and in a Cole Smith territory and all that, so.

02:21:21Yeah.

02:21:22All right, is there anything else that you wanted to mention?

02:21:24I really do appreciate the convo, and of course, you know, the good that it does to

02:21:28others is immeasurable, and I'm certainly very, very pleased about that.

02:21:33Well, I'm just, like you said, you've got to go out into the world and do what you can

02:21:38for other people.

02:21:39And so, you know, that's kind of stuck with me too, and you've just done so much to help

02:21:45the community that listens to you, takes the time and stuff.

02:21:48So, I just hope this conversation is useful to somebody else, and I hope lots of dating

02:21:53starts out from it.

02:21:54Yes, yes, we'll reserve the right to name them.

02:21:57We'll flip for it.

02:21:58All right, well, listen, keep me posted about, yeah, please do keep me posted about how things

02:22:01are going, and I really do appreciate your time today.

02:22:04I will let you know how it goes.

02:22:05Thank you so much, Stefan.

02:22:06I really appreciate it.

02:22:07Thank you.

02:22:08Take care.

02:22:08Have a great day.

02:22:09Okay, you as well.

02:22:10Bye.

02:22:12Bye.

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