I've Been Miserable for 25 YEARS! Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux
Stefan Molyneux
  • last year
I've had this sadness a long time. The last 10 years, I've done various forms of treatment and therapy. I tried a little bit of medication, but for a very long time ago and a very short period, so that didn't work out. The most recent and in-depth treatment I did was from 2020 to 2021. And during that time, I had an excellent psychologist. She helped me a lot. It gave me a lot of good coping tools, and I also got a diagnosis, persistent depressive disorder, it's called.

So I'm carrying this kind of lump in my throat, an overwhelming sense of sadness, but the last years I have just tried to simply accept it and not devote so much energy or attention to it, whereas I previously often wondered why I felt so down and attempted to kind of, get to the root of the problems, I kind of, these last years, tried to move on or, I don't know, as I said, not devote so much energy or time, attention to it. So yeah, now I'm just here, I have a wonderful life, a stay-at-home mom, a fantastic husband, three lovely children under years five, but still feel so down.


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Transcript
00:00:00 Moment or two.
00:00:02 And I'm glad we had a chance to connect today. It's good. I had a cancellation so this works out.
00:00:07 Now, what can I do to help you? You want to give me the deep backstory of going on, the sadness and all that kind of stuff?
00:00:15 Yeah, okay. I've had this sadness a long time.
00:00:21 And the last 10 years I've done various forms of treatment and therapy.
00:00:27 I tried a little bit medication but for a very long time ago and on a very short period so that didn't work out.
00:00:36 The most recent and in-depth treatment I did was from 2020 to 2021.
00:00:43 And during that time I had an excellent psychologist.
00:00:50 She helped me a lot. Gave me a lot of good coping tools and I also got a diagnosis.
00:01:00 Persistent depressive disorder it's called.
00:01:04 So I'm carrying this kind of lump in my throat and overwhelming sense of sadness.
00:01:10 But the last years I've just tried to simply accept it and not devote so much energy or attention to it.
00:01:20 Whereas I previously often wondered why I felt so down and attempted to kind of get to the root of the problems.
00:01:28 I kind of this last year tried to move on or I don't know.
00:01:36 As I said, not devote so much energy or time or attention to it.
00:01:41 So now I'm just here. I have a wonderful life.
00:01:45 A stay-at-home mom, a fantastic husband, three lovely children under the age of five.
00:01:51 But still feel so down.
00:01:58 I appreciate that. Now what does the down feel like?
00:02:04 And I say this not to imply I've never been down, but what is it like for you?
00:02:09 How does it manifest? What does it feel like?
00:02:14 Like someone had just died. Like enormous sadness.
00:02:23 Oh, you mean someone you like, not someone you hate.
00:02:26 Yeah, yeah.
00:02:27 Because sometimes when somebody dies, we're like, yeah, I can live with that.
00:02:30 But someone you really care about. Okay, got it.
00:02:32 Yes. Someone you like just died.
00:02:37 Yeah, I can't describe it. But sometimes if it's happened, there's something bad in my life, I feel the same sadness.
00:02:48 It's hard for me to describe, but it's like that all the time.
00:02:55 Yeah.
00:02:56 Well, is it like an emptiness? Some people describe sadness like the absence of all feeling.
00:03:02 Or is it actively like on the verge of tears or is it more heaviness or what?
00:03:10 Yeah, active. And not emptiness because I feel my life has much meaning.
00:03:20 But more like, yeah, on the verge of crying all the time.
00:03:26 Only I'm not often crying. So it's hard for me to describe.
00:03:35 Well, on the verge of crying because some people it's like numbness.
00:03:40 Like it's no feeling and it's kind of weird.
00:03:44 Like, you know, when if you've ever, your foot's gone to sleep and you get up and you,
00:03:48 it's like a club foot or a hoof or something like that kind of empty, like kind of non-feeling.
00:03:54 But it's more active for you. Is that right? Like more like crying.
00:03:57 Yes. Very good to describe. Yes.
00:04:00 Okay. Got it. Got it. And can you tell me a bit about the history of the feeling?
00:04:05 Like when did it first start or have you had a time without it even as a kid?
00:04:10 I think it started around when I was 10, 11.
00:04:17 Up to that point, I can't remember like having it.
00:04:22 And after this, I've had it. I think I've had it all my life after the age of 10.
00:04:33 And you're in your 30s at the moment? Yes. Correct. Okay.
00:04:38 All right. And did it come slowly or suddenly when you were 10 or 11?
00:04:47 Oh, good question. I think I would say maybe suddenly. Yes.
00:04:56 And what happened? What happened? Oh, yeah. Where to begin?
00:05:06 You can take your time. I don't have a show for another five hours.
00:05:11 Wow. I know. You can take maybe not that much time, but you can take your time.
00:05:17 I also just finished an all-you-can-eat lunch buffet with my daughter,
00:05:20 so I'm not going to be hungry for at least 20 minutes. So you can take your time.
00:05:26 Okay. When I was in my childhood, my family were very Christian.
00:05:41 So we were in a very conservative Christian fellowship.
00:05:49 And I didn't think a lot about it when I was before the age of 10.
00:05:59 It was just a normal day for me. I loved my day, and I loved Jesus. I loved everything.
00:06:08 And this community that we were a part of were not very big.
00:06:18 It was actually families that had joined together from – they had broken out of another big church
00:06:30 and formed their own fellowship or what. Does that make sense? Hello?
00:06:41 It's to me so far. Go ahead.
00:06:43 Yeah, yeah. Good. Okay. So I felt safe there.
00:06:50 But suddenly there was a new family that started to join our community.
00:06:58 They were maybe a bit more, I don't know, devoted or conservative or what you can say.
00:07:10 And they didn't like my father because they knew his history before he had a period where he wasn't Christian.
00:07:24 So they disliked him.
00:07:29 Why wouldn't they like him if he was a non-Christian for a while?
00:07:34 I mean, everyone's a sinner, and a reformed sinner is one of the holiest of people, aren't they?
00:07:39 Good point. So I don't know.
00:07:43 They knew that he had once been in a relationship where he lived together with another woman without being married.
00:07:52 And that was a very big deal for them. So this new family told or made a big deal about this.
00:08:06 So this came as a shock to me to learn this about my father.
00:08:16 I've said this to other people and look, I recognize English is not your native language, but you have a bit of a habit of "eh".
00:08:26 And if you could just try and hold off on that, because it's going to drive me a little crazy.
00:08:31 It's nothing wrong that you're doing. It's just my personal preference.
00:08:35 I find it kind of hypnotic when people have a vocal habit like that.
00:08:38 So I'm not trying to make you feel too self-conscious, but you can pause.
00:08:43 I'm not going anywhere, so you don't need to put bridges in.
00:08:47 So you found this out about your father at what age?
00:08:52 I think I was 10 or 9.
00:08:56 And how did you find out about it?
00:08:58 He told me because this new family that joined the community, they didn't want him to lead any meetings.
00:09:13 I have a problem with the "eh".
00:09:16 I know it's the kind of thing that unless you're in this kind of situation, nobody ever mentions it.
00:09:21 So yeah, don't worry about it too much. Just if you could try a little bit, that's fine.
00:09:25 But why did he tell you? Was it because this other new family was going to tell everyone?
00:09:30 Yeah, I think so.
00:09:33 So he kind of had to tell you all of this. Now, did the other people in the congregation know?
00:09:37 Yes, they knew.
00:09:40 So this wasn't news to them. I assume it wasn't news to your mom.
00:09:44 No, she knew.
00:09:46 So this family comes in and they're mad at your dad for having a non-Christian part of his life.
00:09:54 And everybody knows this, I guess, right?
00:09:58 Yes.
00:09:59 So what's the big deal?
00:10:02 It's like somebody going to my wife and saying, "You know, your husband's bald."
00:10:05 It's like, "Yeah, I know. I know."
00:10:09 So, I mean, other than maybe they were just weird self-righteous trolls or something.
00:10:16 I think they kind of looked up to this other family.
00:10:20 Wait, who did?
00:10:22 The other people in the congregation.
00:10:27 But why did they look up to the other family? I mean, I'm no theologian, but doesn't Jesus say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?
00:10:36 My parents thought it was very unfair.
00:10:44 So the result was that we stopped going.
00:10:54 I feel that's a long story that kind of got shortened a lot.
00:11:00 How long did it take?
00:11:01 So this new family comes in, they start bad-mouthing your dad.
00:11:06 And I mean, isn't that one of the points of Christianity that judging and condemning others is a power that corrupts people so it should only be reserved for God?
00:11:14 So isn't it fair to say, or maybe it is, maybe it isn't, that this new family, by judging and damning your father for something he'd already sought and got forgiveness for, were being sinners, weren't they?
00:11:28 Yes, but they talked to the other families and convinced them that he shouldn't.
00:11:37 I don't know.
00:11:39 Again, I know you were like eight or nine or ten.
00:11:43 But wouldn't the other family say, "You are dangerous sinners who are attacking a much-loved member of our church.
00:11:55 He's already sought forgiveness. He's changed his ways.
00:11:58 So we're not comfortable with you coming in and causing this kind of trouble in the community.
00:12:03 We would like it if you would move on to another church or perhaps join the church of Satan where you belong.
00:12:11 They're just down the street. You can't miss it.
00:12:13 A lot of blood on the door and sulfur smoke in the ceiling."
00:12:18 So why wouldn't the community say, "No, you guys are doing the wrong thing by coming in and causing trouble and judging and attacking and gossiping in a way"?
00:12:29 I think the community thought that I had been too kind with my dad, that I shouldn't have let him have so much power.
00:12:44 They were convinced to turn against a reformed sinner by people who were actively sinning.
00:12:51 How did this other family know about your father's history?
00:12:56 Many years ago, they were together in this big church.
00:13:06 They were together in his original church, then he went through a non-Christian phase, then he rejoined the church.
00:13:13 Do you know if they had any personal issues with your father that they would target him in this way?
00:13:21 I'm not quite sure. It's kind of hard for me to explain.
00:13:28 First, it was this big Christian church which was very conservative.
00:13:33 My parents and other families went out from this and they formed a new community with the people that had left.
00:13:47 I was raised a Protestant. I understand the schism, the split.
00:13:51 Very much split. All the time split. I'm not sure if it's relevant to know the name of the church.
00:13:59 No, that's fine. We don't need to know that.
00:14:02 Did your father fight or did your family fight back and try and stay in the church and then they were eventually kicked out?
00:14:10 Yeah, they tried a lot and it was a lot of fighting. My parents were not sure how much they should tell me because they wanted to shield me as I was a kid.
00:14:25 But they told me, I think it was the okay amount to tell me because I needed to know because it was a big change in my daily life.
00:14:37 I guess eventually they lost the fight or decided to leave and what happened then?
00:14:43 Also, I will mention that the same time that this was happening, I went to public school and at my school, I got bullied.
00:14:57 Yeah, bullied. That's fine.
00:15:02 So, every day I would come home from school and I would cry for hours.
00:15:09 So, I didn't have a good time at school. I'm not sure how much those two things are. If I was crying because of what was happening home at my church or if it was that I was frozen out socially at school.
00:15:30 Were you homeschooled or church schooled before and then went to public school or you were going to public school but you started getting bullied around this time?
00:15:40 Yes, correct.
00:15:45 Only that almost nobody is homeschooled in my country.
00:15:54 Did the school kids find out about your father's past or was there something that caused them to stop bullying you during this time?
00:16:04 No, I'm not sure why. They didn't know about the church problems. Nobody at the school or teachers knew about this.
00:16:16 So, yeah, I don't know why it started or I don't have many specific memories of the bullying. I can't say that word.
00:16:27 All those conflicts at school.
00:16:32 Did you go from being relatively popular or okay with that stuff to being bullied a lot?
00:16:38 No, I was never any popular. I think it's hard to know why I cried so much but I remember crying for hours each day when I came home.
00:16:53 I think I was feeling very overstimulated and I actually requested copies of notes and reports that the school had now as a grown-up just to see more of what the school had said and the notes the teacher had made.
00:17:15 So, there was evidence that I had been posed out socially and got a lot of hurtful text messages.
00:17:28 What were you bullied for? What did they say?
00:17:36 I can't remember.
00:17:40 Really? Come on! You've read the notes. There has to be something that you remember.
00:17:48 Yeah, I think I had like… I'm just going to ask my husband.
00:18:07 Well, were you fat? Were you bad at sports? Were you doing badly in school? Were you overly shy?
00:18:14 It was important to me to be honest and to not lie. So, if the teacher had said that we had to shower after gym, it was very important to me that we showered after gym. So, yeah, I gossiped.
00:18:39 And did the kids of the new family who came to your church, did those kids go to your school?
00:18:45 No.
00:18:47 Oh, okay. And did you have friends over the course of the starting of the bullying that came with you or did your friends all kind of toss you to the side as well?
00:18:57 Yeah, they turned their back on me. They wouldn't want to be with me.
00:19:06 Okay, all right. And the sadness, do you remember if it started before the bullying or during or after?
00:19:14 Oh, that's also a very good question. I think maybe before. So, also during this phase, my mom got really sick and had the problems with her heart. So, I think I also was very scared that she was going to die.
00:19:40 Do you think that that was stress-related at all?
00:19:44 Yes, I think so.
00:19:47 Okay, so you had a lot on your plate. I mean, you got kicked out of your community. You had maybe your first exposure to not just immorality in the part of this new family, but to people's weakness and cowardice in the face of immorality and your mother got very, very sick, right?
00:20:05 Mm-hmm.
00:20:10 And do you have siblings?
00:20:12 Yes, I have a brother, little brother.
00:20:16 Well, not super Christian, then only two of you?
00:20:19 Yeah, but we are the only ones with two.
00:20:25 I bet. Okay. And is he older or younger?
00:20:29 Younger.
00:20:31 Okay. Now, how long did the bullying go on for that you remember?
00:20:37 Yeah, so this was the last years of school. So, it got so bad that my parents took me out of this public school and put me in a private school. So, then kind of, I don't know.
00:20:55 I feel like we just jumped from like 11 to 18 in your age. Help me understand. Because if you had the sort of breakup at the church at 10 or 11, and then the bullying starts, and now we're sort of the last couple of years of high school. So, we're like what?
00:21:11 No, no, no, not high school, elementary school.
00:21:14 Oh, elementary school. Okay, got it, got it. I just want to make sure. Okay. So, yeah, tell me it was so bad that…
00:21:20 So, that I changed to another school.
00:21:27 And how was that?
00:21:30 This school was a religious school. I had not… Just a completely different church, just because it had a good recommendation on it. My parents chose this. So, it was okay. I knew it was the last year of elementary school.
00:21:54 And so, what did you ask?
00:22:02 Well, how things were at the new school, and I guess how long did you stay there for?
00:22:06 One year only, since it was the last year of elementary.
00:22:11 Wait, a year? Then what?
00:22:14 Then, oh, the "eh" is a problem. My father got another job in another place in the country, so we moved and kind of started a new life.
00:22:35 Oh, that's tough. That's tough. And how did that go?
00:22:38 Actually, it went better than expected, in some areas at least. So, we always had family in this area.
00:22:55 And, okay, it's complicated, but my family is in this big church that my family…
00:23:08 Oh, what is "slekt"?
00:23:14 No, I don't know what "slekt" is.
00:23:22 I'm so sorry about this.
00:23:24 No, it's okay. Take your time. No rush.
00:23:28 My relatives were in this other place in the country, but my relatives were still in this big church that my close family had broken out from. Does that make sense?
00:23:42 Yeah.
00:23:44 So, we moved to this new place in the country. And, yeah, I started high school and was a very burning Christian, but we still didn't go to any other…
00:24:04 Now we were just our family only, our close family, and we didn't go to any meetings, any church, nothing.
00:24:12 Oh, no church activity at all?
00:24:15 No, no, no, but we read the Bible a lot. I was…
00:24:20 And, sorry, were your relatives' children in the school? Did you go to school with them?
00:24:26 No, but I had a friend that I think she saved me since I had her. High school was a lot easier for me because I had her.
00:24:44 So, we didn't go to any church. I was on YouTube a lot and saw Christian speeches and tried to keep the fire burning.
00:25:02 Now, do you want to go back to the genesis or the origin of the sadness, or do you want to keep going with your childhood?
00:25:13 I think I maybe want to keep going, but I can try to shorten it.
00:25:19 No, again, I'm happy to… I can bookmark this in my head, so if you want to keep going, that's fine with me.
00:25:24 Yeah, okay. So, I'm a little uncertain whether to bring this up or not.
00:25:37 Oh, then you should bring it up. Yes, absolutely.
00:25:41 I don't want you to kick yourself later if there's some key piece of information that would have been very helpful.
00:25:49 I'm not sure. I don't know. I'll just tell you and we can not talk about it if it's not important. I'm not quite sure.
00:25:58 So, as a young woman, I was very horny.
00:26:08 Well, you're a teenager, so I get that.
00:26:13 But since I was as Christian as I was, it wasn't allowed with masturbation and that kind of stuff.
00:26:24 But I never told my mom or my parents about this, but it was a big struggle for me to not masturbate.
00:26:34 So, it was like an addiction, even though I didn't watch porn or anything, but it was this very big, overwhelming addiction for me that I always tried to quit, but I didn't manage.
00:26:47 And sorry, how old were you here?
00:26:51 I think it started when I was around 10.
00:26:57 Okay, got it. And did you have any exposure to any sexualized materials at that age or just sort of puzzled it out on your own?
00:27:06 Yeah, that's right.
00:27:08 Okay, got it.
00:27:10 So, this was always hanging over me. I didn't know how to deal with it, how to get help, how to ask, how to…
00:27:20 Well, no, that's not true. You knew how to ask. I mean, right or wrong, you would have known what to say to your parents or a priest saying, "I'm having trouble with this 'sin'."
00:27:33 So, I mean, you knew how to ask, but you preferred to keep it a secret. And I mean, I'm not going to judge. I'm just going to say that that's what happened.
00:27:41 That's true. But we didn't have any church to go to.
00:27:45 Right. But you had parents.
00:27:47 I had parents, yes. So, this was kind of… I'm just taking it up because it has always been hanging over me, this kind of addiction that I tried to disproach, I tried to quit.
00:28:04 Okay.
00:28:06 Yes?
00:28:07 Yeah, go ahead.
00:28:08 Okay. So, it was… I felt it was like a curse for me. And in high school, my dad, I will also just mention this, got very angry.
00:28:25 It turns out later that he had very high blood pressure, and it helped when he got his medicine for it. But he was really, really, really angry.
00:28:39 One time, he tried to solve a conflict. I was teasing my little brother, and he pushed me away so hard that I broke my hand.
00:28:50 Oh my gosh, what do you mean?
00:28:52 He was trying to separate us, or I don't know.
00:28:57 No, but how did you break your hand? Did you hit something, or he pulled it?
00:29:00 Yeah, I fell.
00:29:02 I'm sorry?
00:29:07 I fell at the floor. He pushed me away so hard that I fell at the floor.
00:29:13 Wow.
00:29:14 And one time, he complained about something. I think it was like he complained that my aunt was not so good to listen.
00:29:28 And I agree with that, but I argued that since we are Christian, we should tolerate her and be a good example.
00:29:39 And I don't know why I did this, but I took a glass of water and I threw it at his face. I've never, ever done anything like that.
00:29:49 But he got so angry that he took the glass and smashed it all over the floor.
00:29:55 Maybe this is why the other family had issues with him.
00:30:01 Maybe, but this came very sudden. I'm not sure he had this anger earlier. I'm not sure. Maybe.
00:30:11 Oh, come on. Come on. You think people just develop chronic rage in like later middle age out of nowhere?
00:30:17 That's like somebody who's 60 taking up smoking. That's not really how it works.
00:30:21 I'm not sure. Probably had it.
00:30:27 But it's kind of strange to tell it out now because now he is so complete.
00:30:35 I think my husband, he would never, ever kind of imagine my dad like that because he's never seen a more kind of peaceful man.
00:30:46 Well, but did he come about that peace by owning up to confessing and apologizing for the abuse that he did?
00:30:55 I remember that he has said sorry, but yeah, it's not something we talk about.
00:31:06 Okay. All right. So, yeah, keep going.
00:31:09 So that was just like high school.
00:31:14 Wait, sorry. Any dating in high school or was that really not allowed?
00:31:18 It was not allowed. And that was also a struggle for me because I had so many crushes and I weren't allowed to feel those kind of thing.
00:31:25 I thought that so it was hard for me to be so in love and also not being able.
00:31:33 I'm not sure how to feel about it.
00:31:37 Yeah, I mean, it's one thing to say, you know, don't masturbate.
00:31:40 It's another thing to say, oh, and you have to wait until you're 20 to get married and have sex.
00:31:44 And it's like, you know, that's a long haul.
00:31:48 Yeah, true. So then I started high school.
00:31:58 No, what's after high school?
00:32:01 It's elementary, junior high school, high school, at least where I am.
00:32:05 Yeah, okay. I'm sorry. That was junior high that he was so angry.
00:32:11 And so then I started high school.
00:32:16 Yes. Okay.
00:32:19 I'm with you.
00:32:20 Yeah, okay, good. I started high school again.
00:32:25 And I felt very rejected, like I didn't feel pretty or I felt really ugly.
00:32:41 And I, yeah, this is maybe not so fun for my husband to hear about, but I became in a summer meeting.
00:32:59 We went to, oh, I'm sorry. I wish I could speak my own language.
00:33:10 Okay. Are you there?
00:33:15 Yes, go ahead.
00:33:20 I always started to miss that we didn't have any church to go to.
00:33:27 So we went to like a summer camp and there I met a boy that I had been going to in junior high.
00:33:39 And I understood that he was also a Christian.
00:33:43 So I convinced my family that we should start to go to the church that he was in because I wanted to get to know this guy.
00:33:54 And I, yeah, I liked this guy very, very much.
00:34:04 And sorry, what did you like about him?
00:34:08 No, he was a Christian, seemed like a good guy, was funny, that kind of stuff.
00:34:17 So I was very smitten and I really wanted his attention.
00:34:24 So when he had a job at a local shop, and I managed to also get a job there because I wanted to get to know him.
00:34:42 Hello. Are you there? You're so quiet.
00:34:47 I'm listening away. Go ahead.
00:34:52 I don't know how to interrupt and add to stories of how to get close to teenage boys.
00:34:57 So I'm in your area of expertise. So go ahead.
00:35:01 Okay. Anyways, I ended up being very intense with him because I wanted his attention, but I didn't know where I had him.
00:35:08 So I started to work at the same place he worked.
00:35:13 And also when we were finishing high school, I chose the same major at the university as him just to get him.
00:35:24 You were like really all in on this boy.
00:35:26 Yes, true. So stupid.
00:35:29 No, no, no, it's not stupid at all. You liked him. So yeah, good for you.
00:35:34 You weren't getting any real coaching on how to do any of this, right?
00:35:39 No, no, no, no. But I understood that actually I bought a book on how to get the guy.
00:35:49 And they gave me a tip that I should try to flirt with other guys just to get him.
00:36:00 You got one of those books, how to manipulate your way into love and affection.
00:36:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Correct. But it was more like to naturally because I was kind of shy just to get like a practice.
00:36:12 So at the local shop, I tried to flirt with all the guys, all the older, the younger, everyone just to like, not to get him jealous,
00:36:25 but more like to practice to be more comfortable with myself and to manage flirting.
00:36:32 Yeah, but meanwhile, to him, you might be looking a little on the desperate side, right?
00:36:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yes. And I didn't get any attention of him.
00:36:41 But what I didn't realize was that I suddenly had, I was actually very pretty, I think, at that time.
00:36:51 And I was very active. Well, I'm sorry. I mean, I see your picture.
00:36:56 Yeah, you're very pretty. And assuming that there wasn't some massive weight or pimple issue,
00:37:00 I'm assuming you would have been even prettier back then. You're very pretty now.
00:37:03 So you would have been even prettier back then. So pretty plus pretty, you're going to get some male attention, right?
00:37:08 Yeah, I got so much attention. I had never got any attention at all from anyone from the opposite sex.
00:37:15 So I was very overwhelmed. So I got very much attention.
00:37:24 And there was a guy that asked me out and I thought, OK, I'm going to go on a date.
00:37:33 And I actually ended up being together with him for three months.
00:37:39 I just knew this guy. And yeah, he is my ex now.
00:37:49 But this ex, he actually learned me a lot about life.
00:37:55 So I was able to break out of the Christian. So I'm no longer a Christian.
00:38:06 Wait, in three months? How handsome was this devil worshiper?
00:38:11 No, he wasn't handsome at all.
00:38:14 So you liked the first boy because he was a Christian, but then you went with the boy who wasn't a Christian.
00:38:20 Yes. I'm not sure how that happened, but it was like that.
00:38:25 So that's interesting. Sorry to interrupt, but you had a lot of male attention and you went with the boy who wasn't a Christian.
00:38:32 And he wasn't even that handsome, right?
00:38:34 So why do you think that was?
00:38:37 I think I really wanted the first guy so much and was so sad when I felt that he didn't want me.
00:38:46 So I kind of, I'll take anything or something.
00:38:51 No, no, but you had a lot of male attention and you chose the atheist.
00:38:55 Yeah.
00:38:56 And did you know he was an atheist before you dated?
00:38:59 Yes. So I tried to get him to join the church.
00:39:03 Sorry, sorry, go ahead.
00:39:04 I tried to get him to come to church, so he actually came, I think, one time.
00:39:10 But of course he didn't like what he heard.
00:39:15 Okay. All right. So, and that was how long? You said three months?
00:39:19 Yeah.
00:39:21 And what happened with that relationship?
00:39:25 He had a lot of issues. He wasn't, yeah, he had, my mom didn't handle very well that I was growing up.
00:39:39 So he and she would call me a lot and he was the one that cried when she called me.
00:39:51 I'm sorry, what? He was the one who cried when your mother called you?
00:39:54 Yeah.
00:39:55 I don't understand. What does this mean?
00:39:58 No, I don't understand it either. He had very much trouble with his family.
00:40:04 Oh, so you picked a messed up atheist to date?
00:40:10 Yes.
00:40:11 Wow.
00:40:12 It was the first date that I've ever been to. So I don't know why. I just, yeah.
00:40:18 Do you think, was he just the guy who asked you out next or was there other boys?
00:40:23 So he was like, I don't know what he was, but during, when I was together with him, I met my husband, who is now my husband.
00:40:35 And yeah, I don't know. This is where I'm not proud at all, but I fell in love with my now husband while I was together with him.
00:40:57 I'm sorry, like, you feel like, what, bad for?
00:41:02 For a three month relationship? I mean, it's not like you were married or anything.
00:41:11 No, I was 19, but I cheated. I ended up.
00:41:22 I'm sorry, this is your big sin that you cheated, so to speak, with the man who became your husband, with the loser, dysfunctional, messed up atheist who cried when your mom called you.
00:41:37 Yes, but I didn't think that I was, that I had that in me, that I was a cheater. So it really shaked me.
00:41:47 No, but the relationship with the atheist had no future.
00:41:50 No, that's true.
00:41:51 I mean, come on. No future, and you'd been going out for a couple of months, right? I assume that it was a fairly chaste relationship. Is that fair to say? I mean, you were holding hands, kissing maybe, but there was no massive sexual activity, I'm going to assume.
00:42:04 No, that's correct.
00:42:05 Okay, so you were hand-holding and kissing and you, oh, you Jezebel, you cheated on the messed up atheist that you were kissing and holding hands with. Oh, no. I mean, I don't have any big magical forgiveness, but if I did, I'd say, man, I've heard some rough stuff in my 18 years of doing these calls, man.
00:42:25 I've heard some pretty tough guys who've killed, almost killed other guys, and like I've heard of just the worst confessions you could imagine. But I ended up leaving the messed up atheist I was only kissing in order to be with the future father of my children.
00:42:40 I mean, come on. It's like the least sinful thing I've ever heard in my life. It's the least sinful thing I've ever heard of in the entire history of the show. And so, I mean, I get that you're all kinds of morally sensitive, but that's ridiculous.
00:42:59 Yeah, but I don't think that it's one, whatever.
00:43:07 Have you never heard that all is fair in love and war? Okay, let me ask you this. Is your current husband a nice Christian man?
00:43:20 He's not a Christian, or at least not the way that I think.
00:43:29 Was he a Christian when you met him?
00:43:33 He calls himself a Christian, but he's not a Christian in my terms.
00:43:41 I'm still working out what kind of Christianity you're following here, so I'm not sure that you have the monopoly on the accuracy of the term. But he's not an atheist, right?
00:43:52 No.
00:43:54 So you left the atheist to follow a man who believes in God?
00:44:00 Yes, but he believes in God, but he doesn't read the Bible and such. He doesn't go to church.
00:44:13 But he's not an atheist, so he's definitely a step up from atheist guy who cries when your mother calls you for reasons I'll never understand.
00:44:21 He is perfect, yeah.
00:44:23 Okay, so you left the bad guy for the good guy, and you left the atheist for the man who believes in God.
00:44:29 Yes.
00:44:31 Isn't that a virtue?
00:44:35 You tell me.
00:44:37 Well, I mean, if you're a believer, surely you want to raise your child with a believer, right?
00:44:42 But I'm not a believer.
00:44:46 Sorry, we haven't got to your religious evolution. So what do you mean?
00:44:52 Actually, I'm not sure. I don't believe in God.
00:45:06 Oh, so you left the atheist to go with the guy who believes in God, and then you become an agnostic?
00:45:12 Yeah, maybe.
00:45:14 That's a complex interweaving of belief systems.
00:45:19 In my country, most people say they believe in God or that they are Christians, but he's not super Christian.
00:45:31 No, I get it. It's like most people in my country say they believe in currency and democracy, but yeah, never a very real thing.
00:45:39 Now, is there more that we wanted to add on your life in your late teens as an adult, or are we going to circle back to the origins of your service?
00:45:48 A little bit.
00:45:50 Yeah, yeah, fine. Go for it.
00:45:52 So when I got service with my husband, my mother and family, it was very hard for her. I kind of think she handled it like it was a romantic relationship.
00:46:10 I just left her. She sent me a lot of texts. She sent me letters in the mail.
00:46:18 Sorry, you had left her? You had moved out? What do you mean?
00:46:23 Yeah, also I moved out, of course.
00:46:28 Did you move out for university or work or marriage or something else?
00:46:32 I moved out. I lived home just to save money, but when I wasn't a Christian, it was just so much conflict at home that I didn't want to live there, so I moved closer to the university.
00:46:50 When did you start believing in Christianity, at least in the way that your mother does?
00:46:57 It was around that time.
00:47:02 This is late teens?
00:47:04 Yes, I think I was just 20.
00:47:08 Was there something specific that caused your rupture in faith, or was it a slow process, or what happened?
00:47:16 It was just like I realized the freedom that I got when I didn't have to do everything that the Bible told me to do.
00:47:29 I found it really hard to believe in God when all the things that I wanted to do, to be with this man and to dress up the way I wanted, to just be myself.
00:47:43 It was hard for me to believe in him when I believed that he didn't want me to have joy.
00:47:52 So everything that drew you towards happiness was against the doctrines that you grew up with?
00:47:57 I needed to pray, to read the Bible, and I found those things really boring, and they didn't give me any joy.
00:48:07 I felt like I needed to listen to Christian music, not to listen to any radio music, but radio music gave me very much joy.
00:48:21 Did you grow up with a feeling of being watched by God, that God was observing everything that you did, and you were never alone or never had any real privacy?
00:48:32 No, more like I really watched God like a friend.
00:48:39 Okay, got it.
00:48:41 All right, so a lot of conflict with your mother. You move out. Then how long is it before you marry the boy?
00:48:50 Three years, I think.
00:48:55 Okay, got it. And is there more that you wanted to mention about your early adulthood?
00:49:01 Yeah, so just quick. We got married, had our first kid, and I moved back to where my parents were.
00:49:21 And now things with my parents are much better. So we have almost daily contact with them.
00:49:35 You mean at present?
00:49:37 Yeah, at the present, yes.
00:49:38 Okay, got it.
00:49:41 Yeah, so now we can circle back to whenever you want.
00:49:45 Got it. Okay. So I mean we'll just touch on the masturbation, but would you say that your sadness and what you call the addiction or the masturbation thing, would you say that that occurred around the same time in your childhood?
00:50:07 Yes, I would.
00:50:09 Okay, so I mean obviously I don't know, but I would guess that this habit formed as a way to try and prevent you from collapsing into depression.
00:50:20 In other words, if you had some positive experience to look forward to, then it's a way of fighting the depression or the undertow of sadness, if that makes sense.
00:50:31 Natural help.
00:50:34 Yeah, I mean it's because that seems to me somewhat early, but the sadness hit very early.
00:50:40 And you know, if you're drowning and you don't really know how to swim, you'll grab onto anything that keeps you afloat.
00:50:45 And if you're feeling very unhappy and you find this particular habit that gives you some pleasure, people kind of stagger just from pleasure to pleasure because they are very unhappy and they need something to lift their spirits, if that makes sense.
00:50:58 Yes.
00:51:00 In other words, it's a habit that is a survival mechanism designed to give you something to look forward to when there probably wasn't a whole lot that you felt to look forward to.
00:51:12 I'm not saying do you agree, but do you sort of make sense of the argument?
00:51:18 Yes, it makes very much sense.
00:51:20 Okay, so that's why I say, you know, not a big sin.
00:51:23 Anyway, so this family, this is almost like a Garden of Eden story that you were in a kind of good community, if I understand this correctly, and then the serpents came in and kicked you out.
00:51:41 Does that accord with your experience or is it different for you?
00:51:44 Yeah, that's a good point, yes.
00:51:47 All right.
00:51:49 So, I assume you were, since you felt guilt over the masturbation, were you a morally very sensitive?
00:51:57 Yeah, because of course you also felt guilt about the atheist weirdo.
00:52:01 You were a very morally sensitive child?
00:52:05 Yes, I was.
00:52:06 Okay.
00:52:07 So, what is the lesson of your Garden of Eden story, my friend?
00:52:13 What is the lesson?
00:52:15 What did you learn when the snakes invaded paradise and you got kicked out?
00:52:22 What did you learn about the power of Christianity to identify and battle immorality?
00:52:31 Well, I can't answer that.
00:52:36 Sure you can.
00:52:37 What I did learn of that…
00:52:39 What did you learn?
00:52:40 Okay, who won, the bad guys or the good guys?
00:52:43 The bad guys.
00:52:45 We're just talking about you as a child, right, how you perceived it as a child.
00:52:49 So, the bad guys won in the church.
00:52:54 It's one thing for the bad guys to win in a biker bar or a dark alley or in war or something like that, a boxing ring, but the bad guys won in the church.
00:53:08 That's the one place that the bad guys shouldn't win, because that's the whole point of the church, is to identify and fight the bad guys, right?
00:53:19 That's the one job.
00:53:22 Identify immorality and defeat immorality, or at least don't lose to it.
00:53:30 Does that make sense?
00:53:32 Yes.
00:53:33 I mean, it's like having a doctor who's really skilled at identifying one disease who doesn't see that disease when it's right there in front of him.
00:53:40 Sorry, go ahead.
00:53:41 I think the people at the church thought that they were getting better Christians because they would…
00:53:49 No, no, no, don't give me all of this adult reasonableness, young lady.
00:53:55 Don't give me any of this adult reasonableness, because I'm talking about you as a child.
00:54:02 And they weren't getting better Christians according to the belief system and morality of Christianity.
00:54:14 I mean, what did Jesus say to the thief on Calvary, on the cross?
00:54:19 What did Jesus say to the thief?
00:54:23 Mental block?
00:54:26 No, he didn't say mental block.
00:54:29 He said, "You get to come to heaven."
00:54:32 Yes, of course, yes.
00:54:36 The woman who was an adulterer was going to get stoned to death, and what did Jesus say to everyone?
00:54:44 "Let he who was without sin cast the first stone."
00:54:49 Have humility.
00:54:51 What does the Bible say about judging others?
00:54:53 "Judge not, lest ye be judged."
00:54:55 What else does the Bible say about judging others?
00:54:58 Why are you so concerned with the speck of dust in your brother's eyes and you ignore the giant log in your own?
00:55:05 Stop focusing on other people's misdeeds and purify yourself.
00:55:09 Does that make sense?
00:55:10 Yes, yes, yes, of course.
00:55:12 This is all like basic Christianity as far as I understand it, and certainly this was the stuff that I learned.
00:55:18 So, did the bad guys win?
00:55:25 Of course, the bad guys think the good guys win, blah, blah, blah, who cares?
00:55:28 I'm talking about your experience as a child.
00:55:31 Yes, we moved away and they won.
00:55:35 So the bad guys won and the good guys lost, right?
00:55:41 Yes.
00:55:42 So then you're like, "Wow, the church is failing."
00:55:51 The church which you were taken to with the express understanding that this was going to teach you good from evil, right from wrong, and how to triumph against sin, right?
00:56:03 Sorry, I'm not sure if the "mm" is like, "Yeah, yeah, go on," or if you're agreeing, or I don't know.
00:56:08 I can't see you. I don't know if you're nodding or not.
00:56:10 I'm listening intensely.
00:56:13 Okay, but does it sort of make sense so far?
00:56:15 Yes, it does.
00:56:17 Okay, so you have two powers.
00:56:20 Well, you have three powers in your life.
00:56:22 You have your parents, you have your church, and you have your school, right?
00:56:28 Yes.
00:56:29 You've got your parents, you've got God and the priests, and you've got the teachers and the principals, right?
00:56:34 Yes.
00:56:35 So your parents fail.
00:56:40 They fail to stay in a church.
00:56:44 The church fails to uphold the basic teachings of Christianity, which is maybe to hate the sin, but love the sinner, right?
00:56:52 Yes.
00:56:54 And to forgive your enemies and to not judge.
00:56:57 And then, oh, little you goes to school.
00:57:03 Now, what is the purpose of school?
00:57:06 To educate you.
00:57:08 Can you be educated if you're frightened to go to school?
00:57:12 No.
00:57:13 No, you can't concentrate, you're scared to go, you can't sleep, you're tired, you're fearful, you're jumpy, you can't, right?
00:57:19 It's horrible.
00:57:21 It's like trying to do math problems with somebody screaming random numbers into your ear, right?
00:57:26 Yes.
00:57:28 So, is God keeping you safe?
00:57:31 Nope.
00:57:32 Is the church keeping you safe?
00:57:34 Nope.
00:57:35 It's harming you.
00:57:36 Are your parents keeping you safe?
00:57:37 Nope.
00:57:38 You have to move.
00:57:39 And then you go to school.
00:57:43 Are your teachers keeping you safe?
00:57:46 No.
00:57:47 No.
00:57:49 Every institution that you rely on, that is the foundation of your society, every institution is failing you completely.
00:58:00 Every institution that you're told is moral and good and necessary is betraying and harming you.
00:58:08 Yes, I, well.
00:58:11 Everything.
00:58:12 Was there one thing that was working effectively to protect you as a child?
00:58:24 I can't think of anything right now, at least.
00:58:27 I think you'd remember.
00:58:29 Yes.
00:58:30 I think you'd remember.
00:58:32 Like, you know, if you're in a storm of 300 days and there's one day where it's beautiful, you'll remember that, right?
00:58:37 Yes, of course.
00:58:40 So, this is what they call an existential crisis for a kid, especially a kid who's morally sensitive, and I say that in a very positive way, in a very good, positive way.
00:58:52 Yes.
00:58:53 So, your society was revealed to be a lie.
00:59:00 In other words, there was such a gap between stated ideals and actual actions that it was incomprehensible, I assume, as a child.
00:59:12 The church says this, they're doing the exact opposite.
00:59:16 The school says this, they're doing the exact opposite.
00:59:20 And my parents' judgment is revealed to be very flawed because they chose a church that did this to the whole family, and they put me in a school.
00:59:30 Now, again, they changed you to a different school, which was better, of course, but I'm talking about, was it a year that you were being bullied and all of this stuff was just passing in your family?
00:59:41 The bullying, I think maybe two or three years.
00:59:47 Two or three years.
00:59:48 It got worse and worse.
00:59:50 And so, two or three years for the ages of sort of eight to 11, is that right, nine to 12, that kind of thing?
00:59:55 Yes, that's right.
00:59:57 Okay.
00:59:59 So, the school, I assume, has something like, and maybe you didn't know this at the time, but I'm going to guess, the school had something like a zero tolerance for bullying, right?
01:00:13 Yes, they had.
01:00:15 We don't allow bullying, there's zero tolerance for bullying.
01:00:20 Did they live up to that ideal?
01:00:24 No, not at all.
01:00:26 Your parents said, "This is the church for us.
01:00:28 We even left another church to come to this church.
01:00:30 Now, this church kicked us out."
01:00:32 Yeah.
01:00:34 I mean, talk about a bad call, right?
01:00:36 And then you went to the other school, if I remember this rightly, correct me if I'm wrong, of course, you went to another school, which was populated by people who were part of the church your parents left, right?
01:00:55 No, that's wrong.
01:00:57 That's wrong?
01:00:58 Okay, sorry.
01:00:59 I thought that you're up in that area where…
01:01:01 It's my bad.
01:01:04 No, it could be me, it could be me.
01:01:06 So, help me understand, at the new school, there weren't the Christians from the larger church?
01:01:12 No, they were from a completely different church.
01:01:15 Okay, got it, got it.
01:01:17 I'm sorry.
01:01:18 I do remember some connection, but was it your family up there who were part of the larger church?
01:01:23 Yeah, when we moved to another part of the country, when I started junior high school, this is where the larger church was that they previously was a part of.
01:01:38 So, wasn't the school a Christian school?
01:01:42 I'm sorry, the junior high school was a private junior high school was Christian.
01:01:51 Okay, so forgive me, I don't mean to be jumping too many steps ahead.
01:01:56 I'm sorry, elementary private school was Christian, but when I started junior high school, it was government.
01:02:05 Okay, but it was a junior high school in the new area where the larger church was popular, right?
01:02:12 Yes.
01:02:13 Okay, so this is what I mean when I say that the children who went to school in junior high with you when you moved to the new area, those children were part of the larger church, a lot of them, is that right?
01:02:27 Yeah, but I don't think that was like, because my best friend in junior high school was part of this large church, but we still were best friends.
01:02:41 She was not part of the large church.
01:02:43 Yes, she was.
01:02:45 She was part of the large church.
01:02:46 Okay, so, sorry, let me try.
01:02:48 I'm probably not explaining it well.
01:02:50 Let me try again.
01:02:51 So, you went in junior high to the church, to the school with a lot of kids from the larger church, right?
01:03:02 The church your parents left, right?
01:03:03 Yes, correct.
01:03:04 Okay, we got that.
01:03:06 That's what I was saying.
01:03:07 You're a smart guy.
01:03:09 In the school with the kids from the larger church, were you bullied?
01:03:18 No.
01:03:20 No?
01:03:21 So, your parents left the region and the large church or left the large church where there was no bullying and brought you to the region where there was bullying, and what does that say about your parents' judgment?
01:03:35 They said, "Well, we didn't like the large church.
01:03:38 We want the small church."
01:03:40 And in the small church, they got bullied and driven out by a bad family, and then they took you to where the kids from the large church were, and you weren't bullied anymore.
01:03:50 So, what did you think of your parents' judgment on leaving the large church and bringing you to the small church, which kicked them out?
01:03:58 I've never thought about that.
01:04:02 I'm not saying it's conscious, but of course if you had thought about it, it probably wouldn't be unconsciously unhappiness, right?
01:04:15 Yeah.
01:04:28 Oh, that's a good question.
01:04:32 But since I didn't get bullied when I was in junior high with these kids from the larger church, it was a good move from my parents.
01:04:46 No, it was a terrible move.
01:04:49 No, listen.
01:04:50 It's good that you didn't get bullied, of course.
01:04:53 Your parents said, "The large church is bad.
01:04:56 The small church is good," right?
01:04:58 Yes.
01:04:59 But the small church was bad, and the large church was full of kids who didn't bully you.
01:05:09 Yes.
01:05:10 Am I wrong?
01:05:11 No.
01:05:14 So your parents were doing the exact opposite of good things, because they were taking you – if they had stayed with the large church, whether that was the same town or not, you wouldn't have been bullied.
01:05:28 No.
01:05:29 They took you to the small church, to a school where you were bullied, and they were bullied.
01:05:32 So in the small church environment, everyone got bullied.
01:05:36 Your mother, your father, you, maybe your brother.
01:05:39 Everyone got bullied in the small church and the school that your parents chose.
01:05:43 And then your parents were driven out against their will to the area with the large church where everything was great.
01:05:54 Right?
01:05:55 No bullying.
01:05:57 Now, they didn't rejoin the church.
01:05:59 No, no.
01:06:00 I get that.
01:06:01 Like you said, you read the Bible and you watched lectures, but you didn't rejoin the church.
01:06:06 So everyone was failing you.
01:06:08 The church failed you.
01:06:10 Your parents failed you because they took you to an environment where everyone got bullied, and then they were kicked out.
01:06:17 Okay.
01:06:18 They weren't kicked out.
01:06:20 I think they chose not to – I think they were allowed to be there, but they didn't want to.
01:06:29 Yeah, okay.
01:06:30 Whatever they – however they put it.
01:06:31 Right?
01:06:32 I mean, come on.
01:06:33 They were kicked out.
01:06:34 Yeah, okay.
01:06:35 Come on.
01:06:36 Yes, okay.
01:06:37 I mean, this other family, I assume, poisoned the well, as they say, like turned everyone against them and convinced everyone that your parents were bad people and bad Christians.
01:06:47 So it's really uncomfortable, right, to be in a place – I mean, listen, this has happened to me many times over the course of my life – to be in a place where nobody wants you.
01:06:57 Yeah, it's horrible.
01:06:58 It's not comfortable.
01:06:59 And your kids are getting bullied.
01:07:03 Right?
01:07:04 Yes.
01:07:05 I mean, they certainly didn't choose to have everyone turn against them, and they were kicked out.
01:07:12 I mean, obviously, they chose to leave.
01:07:14 I'm not saying they were driven out, like with pitchforks or swords or something.
01:07:18 Yes, I understand that.
01:07:19 Sorry.
01:07:20 But it's pretty uncomfortable to be where nobody wants you to be and nobody's talking to you, right?
01:07:23 Yes, yes.
01:07:24 Okay.
01:07:25 So they were kicked out.
01:07:27 Like what happened was they didn't – and again, correct me if I'm wrong – but your parents didn't say, "The values of this small church are not the values that we want to pursue, so we're going to find a new spiritual home."
01:07:44 No.
01:07:45 A new family came in and trash-talked them, insulted them, spread bad rumors, negative stories or whatever, and they were kicked out.
01:07:52 They were driven out.
01:07:53 Driven out is probably a better way of putting it.
01:07:55 Does that make sense?
01:07:56 Yeah.
01:07:57 Okay.
01:07:58 Yes, very much so.
01:07:59 So your parents had pretty terrible judgment about this, right?
01:08:03 Yes, yes.
01:08:04 Now, let me ask – so you were bullied for two – sorry, I sound like I'm yelling at you and cornering you, so I don't mean it that way.
01:08:11 The witness will answer the question.
01:08:13 But you were bullied for like two or three years, right?
01:08:17 Yes.
01:08:18 Now, it only ended when your parents left the church, right?
01:08:28 And you moved.
01:08:30 No, because they took me to the private school where I weren't bullied.
01:08:35 But we still went on and off to this little church.
01:08:40 Okay, and how long were you in the private school before you moved to the new area?
01:08:47 Under a year.
01:08:50 Okay, got it.
01:08:53 So why did your parents move to the new area if they had already left the church, the small church?
01:09:02 It's like a gray area, but I think it was a lot of different – like we wanted our new start.
01:09:14 It was okay in this private school, but it wasn't tough.
01:09:19 And my father was searching for a job.
01:09:23 He found a new job, didn't he?
01:09:25 Yes, so he was searching for a job and he suddenly got this new job.
01:09:29 So it was very spontaneous.
01:09:35 Sorry, why did your parents let you be bullied for two to three years before getting you to a better school?
01:10:00 I think – I'm thinking –
01:10:10 Maybe they were having these big battles at the church and then your mom got sick and maybe they were just –
01:10:17 there may be too much on their plate, as they say.
01:10:20 Yeah, maybe.
01:10:22 But I'm sorry, this is your life, so don't let me theorize.
01:10:25 That was definitely a part of it, but I think also it got worse and worse and worse.
01:10:32 So it's not like it wasn't right to just switch schools in the beginning.
01:10:42 They knew about the bullying, right?
01:10:44 Yes.
01:10:45 Okay, so I've got to tell you, you're a parent, right?
01:10:49 How long would you let your children be bullied before doing something decisive about it and solving the problem?
01:10:56 But I think they tried to solve the problem and get –
01:11:01 Oh no, please.
01:11:03 Oh, you're such a nice young lady.
01:11:05 It's terrible.
01:11:07 I'm sorry.
01:11:08 No, no, don't apologize.
01:11:10 Come on.
01:11:11 Well, they tried.
01:11:12 Okay, so let me ask you this.
01:11:15 If your child was being bullied to the point where they were just miserable and hated going to school
01:11:21 and hated getting up in the morning and hated Sunday nights because the next day was school,
01:11:25 I assume this is all stuff that was going on for you,
01:11:28 how long would you spend trying to solve the problem?
01:11:34 And if you couldn't solve the problem using the school, how long would you let your child be bullied?
01:11:42 Maybe two to three years?
01:11:45 No.
01:11:46 Okay, so that's what I'm talking about.
01:11:49 I mean, I'm sure your parents were like, "Oh, yeah, we'll talk to the principal,"
01:11:54 and the principal says, "I'll look into it," and then they just drop the ball for a couple of months.
01:11:58 No, so you're a mother, right?
01:12:00 How long would you let your child be bullied for before you would change it so that he wasn't bullied or she wasn't bullied?
01:12:11 Yeah, I would, but yeah, I wouldn't.
01:12:16 I'm sorry, I would. Wait, wait, what?
01:12:18 No, no, no.
01:12:19 You started.
01:12:21 I would do something very quick, of course, but I'm just thinking that it felt like they did something very quick,
01:12:39 but maybe they didn't.
01:12:42 I'm sorry, are we changing to two to three years, which you can if you misremembered,
01:12:48 but two to three years is a long time.
01:12:50 That's an eternity for a child.
01:12:52 That's why I think maybe I said wrong.
01:12:55 Maybe it was started.
01:13:00 I'm sorry.
01:13:02 No, listen, can we say instead of two to three, do you want to say one to two years?
01:13:07 Yeah, I think so.
01:13:09 Okay, do you think that makes it much better?
01:13:11 Yes, yeah, because you can't go to change the school instantly.
01:13:16 You have to try different things, other approaches before you just change school.
01:13:27 So you just talk yourself out of getting upset all the time and you wonder why you're sad?
01:13:32 I'm serious, right?
01:13:36 I'm serious.
01:13:37 You make excuses for your parents.
01:13:40 Maybe you make excuses for the teachers.
01:13:42 Maybe you make excuses for the bad people in the small church.
01:13:47 But why would you make excuses?
01:13:50 Because you don't give those excuses to yourself.
01:13:52 I mean, when I asked you how long you would let your own children be bullied for,
01:13:57 I mean, the answer seemed not long at all, right?
01:14:05 I don't want to make excuses for them.
01:14:08 Well, you know, you do want to make it because you're doing it, right?
01:14:12 You can't do something repeatedly and then say, I don't want to do it, right?
01:14:16 I need help to not do it.
01:14:18 No, so why is it tough for you to say, okay, let me, let me.
01:14:23 The bad guys won at the church, right?
01:14:25 Do we agree on that?
01:14:28 What?
01:14:29 The bad guys won in the small church.
01:14:32 Yes.
01:14:33 They drove out your family, right?
01:14:35 Yes.
01:14:36 Because it wasn't just your parents.
01:14:37 I assume you had friends in the small church and all of that.
01:14:40 So, okay, so the bad guys won.
01:14:43 Yes, they won.
01:14:44 And the bad guys won.
01:14:46 I don't know if this is the right word to make sense with the collusion or the participation or the help of the good guys.
01:14:52 See, the bad guys can't do anything really without the help of the good guys or the people who think they're good.
01:14:58 Because if the bad guys came to the small church and said, oh, this girl's parents are bad and he, you know, he lived out of wedlock.
01:15:06 So all of the Christians have to side with the bad guys to drive out your family, right?
01:15:13 Yes.
01:15:14 Okay.
01:15:15 So.
01:15:16 The bad guys turned the quote good guys against you, right?
01:15:23 Yes.
01:15:24 And it sounds like it was a pretty easy thing for them to do, right?
01:15:28 So.
01:15:31 The church fails and all the people you were told were good, right?
01:15:36 I mean, your parents brought you to this church, right?
01:15:39 The small church.
01:15:40 And said, you know, these are good people, right?
01:15:45 These are moral people.
01:15:46 We left that big church because these, this small church is full of really, they're much better people.
01:15:50 They're much more moral people.
01:15:51 They're much more, more, they're better Christians, right?
01:15:54 So, so your parents were saying, these are the best people around.
01:15:58 And they totally betrayed your family and sided with the bad guys and drove you into the wilderness, right?
01:16:04 Yes.
01:16:05 So, how good is your parents' judgment if they say, oh, we, we, we got to be in this church because it's full of the best people.
01:16:13 And then they just fall prey to evil doers.
01:16:16 And get behind the evil doers and chase you guys out, right?
01:16:20 Yes.
01:16:21 So, your parents' judgment is bad.
01:16:25 And then for you as a kid, right?
01:16:27 Your parents say, well, you got to go to this school, right?
01:16:29 This is, this is the school to go to.
01:16:33 And did your parents move to get away from the big church?
01:16:37 Did they move their location or did they just change churches?
01:16:41 The first place, no, they didn't move.
01:16:50 They just changed.
01:16:51 They just changed churches.
01:16:54 Okay.
01:16:55 All right.
01:16:56 So, they say, these are the best Christians and they turn out to be very bad, right?
01:17:02 The people in the small church.
01:17:03 And then they say, you've got to go to this school.
01:17:06 And that school turns out to be really bad.
01:17:09 And your parents fail to deal with the bullies in their church and they fail to deal with the bullies in your school.
01:17:19 Yes, they did.
01:17:20 So, you are surrounded.
01:17:22 Oh, and the teachers fail to deal with the bullies, even though the teachers say most, a good portion of our job is to deal with bullying, right?
01:17:30 With zero tolerance.
01:17:33 So, you're surrounded by bullies who always, always win.
01:17:39 Am I wrong?
01:17:40 No, yes, it's correct.
01:17:43 So, how much fun for that is a child to say, oh, great, the world's full of evil bullies who always win.
01:17:52 Very dark place.
01:17:54 That's dark, right?
01:17:55 Yes.
01:17:56 That's very dark.
01:17:59 And what was your hope?
01:18:01 Your hope was God.
01:18:03 But the godly people were among the worst.
01:18:08 Right, the small church people.
01:18:10 And I'm also going to assume that the kids in the school where you were bullied were also the children of Christians.
01:18:17 And I'm also going to assume that the teachers, I'm not saying it was a religious school, but I'm assuming that most of the people were Christians or religious, right?
01:18:25 No, that's wrong.
01:18:27 That's wrong.
01:18:28 So, you're saying that the religious people are pretty terrible and can't stand up against bullying.
01:18:43 Oh, let's go to the secular place.
01:18:46 Oh, dear.
01:18:48 The secular place is full of terrible people who can't stand up against bullying.
01:18:54 So, I mean, the world is divided into people who believe in God and people who don't believe in God.
01:19:00 And if they're both terrible at dealing with bullying and, in fact, they enable the bullies, is there ever any escape from bullying?
01:19:12 Oh, it's everywhere.
01:19:15 It's everywhere and the bullies rule, right?
01:19:20 Yes.
01:19:21 The bullies win and the bullies rule.
01:19:23 The people who lie triumph against the people who tell the truth with the participation of all the people who claim to value the truth.
01:19:34 Right?
01:19:35 Fundamental commandment, as you know, thou shalt not bear what?
01:19:40 What shalt thou not bear?
01:19:42 False witness.
01:19:43 False witness, which means in matters of morality, you do not lie about people.
01:19:49 I mean, it's one thing to say, oh, that dress looks really pretty when it doesn't look super pretty or whatever.
01:19:54 That's not exactly very false witness because witness means a trial.
01:19:58 But in matters of morality and reputation, you tell the truth.
01:20:02 Right?
01:20:03 Yes.
01:20:04 So in your life, in your world.
01:20:10 You've got bullies in the church winning.
01:20:13 You've got false friends in the church who side with the bullies.
01:20:16 You've got bullies in the school.
01:20:18 You've got teachers who are supposed to take your side who don't deal with the bullies.
01:20:22 And as a plus, your father breaks your hand.
01:20:28 No, no, not laughing.
01:20:29 Not laughing now.
01:20:31 The laughing part is not now because your father breaks your hand.
01:20:35 And your father has a vicious temper at this time in your life.
01:20:40 Am I right?
01:20:41 Yes.
01:20:45 So you're morally sensitive.
01:20:47 You want a good, safe, virtuous world.
01:20:49 Right?
01:20:50 Where is it in your childhood?
01:20:53 Where do you see virtue winning at all?
01:20:58 No, never.
01:21:02 I mean, isn't the place where evil rules and tortures the good with the participation of everyone who just claims to be good?
01:21:10 Isn't that place kind of hell?
01:21:14 Yes.
01:21:17 And your father finally moves.
01:21:20 Why? Because you're getting bullied.
01:21:22 I guess the bullying was better by then because you'd moved schools, right?
01:21:25 Yes, it was better.
01:21:27 So then your father moves and you do get to a better place.
01:21:31 But that better place is the first place your father fled from, which was the area with the large church, right?
01:21:38 Yeah, kind of.
01:21:41 He has moved a lot of different places.
01:21:46 But that's another.
01:21:47 Okay.
01:21:49 So tell me what you think of what I'm saying, the sort of the case that I'm putting forward as to why you would have had a real shock as a morally sensitive person to realize all of this.
01:22:01 And again, I'm not saying this happened consciously, but we process everything as children.
01:22:06 Yeah, it's kind of, I have not put this together.
01:22:13 So it's kind of a new territory.
01:22:18 New territory. I get it. Yeah, that's good.
01:22:21 But also, I'm not sure if, yes, this is it, if you understand. But it may be just new for me to think, put this together.
01:22:40 Well, what do you think it does to a morally sensitive little girl to realize that she kind of lives in hell?
01:22:48 And her parents are putting her there and her parents are claiming that there are good people who end up betraying everyone.
01:22:56 And these are the teachers who are going to take care of you, who end up betraying you and they fail to protect you.
01:23:02 And they look for companionship from people who will betray them.
01:23:06 And then your father breaks your hand.
01:23:10 No, what does this do to a child's sense of security and belief in the power of virtue?
01:23:20 Destroys it.
01:23:23 Well, I think so. And if you're morally sensitive and virtuous revealed to be something that is hunted eternally and murdered eternally by the immoral and the amoral,
01:23:36 then being virtuous means being attacked.
01:23:42 Being virtuous means being betrayed.
01:23:45 Yes.
01:23:46 Being virtuous means being hunted.
01:23:51 Yeah. Yes. Yes. I see it now.
01:23:59 And your parents, do they know this?
01:24:07 Yes.
01:24:08 Well, I don't know. I don't know if they ever like do they know this?
01:24:21 I'm not sure what to say.
01:24:24 What I mean is, do your parents have an accurate understanding of the nature of the world they exposed you to as a child,
01:24:32 that they exposed you to a group of people who betrayed and drove out your family,
01:24:37 that they put you under the care of teachers who betrayed and enabled your bullying?
01:24:46 Do they know what kind of world they introduced you to when you were young?
01:24:58 I know what they would say, but I don't believe.
01:25:05 Well, what would they say? No, tell me what would they say?
01:25:07 They would say that, of course, the sentence that they did the best they could.
01:25:13 I'm sorry. Say again.
01:25:14 That they did the best they could.
01:25:19 Well, I mean, that's just a nonsense statement. That doesn't mean anything, right?
01:25:22 Yeah, no.
01:25:23 I mean, that doesn't mean anything.
01:25:24 They believed that it was not their fault and that they moved my school and that they tried to fix it.
01:25:47 Yeah, but they themselves made terrible moral judgments putting their faith in a church that betrayed them
01:25:58 and putting their faith in a school system that betrayed you.
01:26:03 And, okay, maybe they fixed it after a year or two, but that's a long time for a kid, right?
01:26:09 Yes, yes, yes.
01:26:10 I mean, you try telling your eight-year-old child, "You know, I'll give you some money in about 18 months.
01:26:17 You'll get some candy in about two years."
01:26:20 Come on. What's she going to say?
01:26:25 Might as well say never. Just say never. It's more honest, right?
01:26:29 Yes.
01:26:33 So what is your belief deep down? What did you learn from the church, from the school, from your parents, from the congregation?
01:26:45 And you said this is why I asked earlier. I asked what happened to your friends when you got bullied.
01:26:52 Do you remember what you said?
01:26:56 Yeah, they turned their back.
01:26:58 Yeah, they betrayed you, right?
01:26:59 Yes.
01:27:00 They betrayed you.
01:27:03 So when your friends betray you because you're being bullied, what does that tell you about the power of the bullies?
01:27:12 That they got the power.
01:27:15 That they have the power and everyone who claims to be good is just waiting for a bully to tell them what to do.
01:27:22 And if that statement is "Stab your friend in the back," they'll just do it.
01:27:27 There's the evil people and then there's all of these inert people who just do whatever the evil people tell them to.
01:27:33 Yes.
01:27:34 We saw this under COVID too, right?
01:27:39 So what is your belief deep down about the nature of the world and the nature of society? Who runs it? Who's in charge? Who controls things?
01:27:58 Oh, health.
01:28:02 I mean based on your experience.
01:28:04 Yeah.
01:28:09 I'm not sure.
01:28:11 Based on my experience, I would say that they are evil.
01:28:17 And how do the evil people run things and rule things?
01:28:21 Not fair, or their way.
01:28:27 Well, think about this family that came into the small church. How did they end up driving out your family?
01:28:39 Yes.
01:28:41 With their words.
01:28:47 Well, no. Not the words didn't drive you out.
01:28:51 Anyone can say anything.
01:28:54 What did they need from everyone else to drive your family out?
01:29:12 Their respect or they needed their…
01:29:15 Yeah. They needed their loyalty.
01:29:17 Yes.
01:29:19 So the bad guys came along, trash talked your family and said, "Your family's bad." And everyone's like, "Yeah, they are. Let's get them out." Right?
01:29:27 Yes.
01:29:29 And then the bullies came along and said, "This little girl is someone we're going to bully." And your friends are all like, "Yeah, go ahead. We're out. Peace out, man. We're gone. We're done."
01:29:37 And the teachers who are supposed to protect you and your parents who are supposed to protect you were like, "No, no. Just let her get bullied. It's easier. It's safer."
01:29:44 See, there are the bullies, there are the good guys, and then there's the vast majority of people who side with the bullies. And that's the only reason the bullies have power. Right?
01:29:58 I mean, a good church may have had issues with your parents, of course. Right? But a good church would have just laughed and said, "Oh, yeah. Gosh. Yes. He was a sinner at one point when he wasn't religious.
01:30:09 He's now reconnected to religion. He's living a moral life. And you are bad people for coming here and spreading lies and slander. You know that's exactly how Jesus ended up getting crucified, you terrible, terrible people." Right?
01:30:25 But they don't do that. Right?
01:30:29 And then you're then drawn to listen to a guy doing a philosophy show. And what happens to me?
01:30:40 There's a couple of bad people who tell some lies and everyone's like, "Yeah!" And what happened to my colleagues and friends when I was de-platformed?
01:30:51 Yeah, they turned their back and they even joined organizations that were part of lying about me. It's kind of gross. I get that. Right?
01:31:00 So, this is part of a cycle. Right?
01:31:08 That you're involved in seeing the same story over and over and over again, but I don't think you're conscious of it. You're drawn to that same story.
01:31:19 Good people. Bad people lie about good people. Everyone lines up behind the bad people and the good people get shafted. They get screwed. Right?
01:31:30 Okay. Yes.
01:31:32 Does that make sense?
01:31:34 Yeah, I'm trying to understand.
01:31:38 Tell me what's not clear. Maybe it's partly a language thing, but I'm happy to make something clear if it's not.
01:31:44 You said that it's repeating?
01:31:53 It's the same story. Right?
01:31:55 Yeah, same story over and over again.
01:31:57 Right. Of bad people lying about good people and everyone siding with the bad people. Right?
01:32:04 I think this is something you've seen over and over again. Right?
01:32:10 Now, I know this about the world. You know this about the world deep down. But only one of us is battling fairly constant sadness. Right?
01:32:22 Yes.
01:32:23 So, what's the difference?
01:32:37 I think it's hard because I'm not sure what the difference is.
01:32:50 Well, this is somewhat new information for you. Right? These connections.
01:32:56 Yes.
01:32:57 So, maybe the fear that you have, I don't know, and it's your life, so tell me anything I get wrong, of course.
01:33:06 But maybe the fear you have is, how can I ever be happy knowing the true nature of the world?
01:33:19 That it's like all that bad people have to do is snap their fingers and lob some words and good men and women and children are driven out into the wilderness in tiny little tribes.
01:33:36 But I like... I'm sorry, I'm just reflecting on this new information.
01:33:54 But I don't think I have this background fear that the bad people are always winning.
01:34:06 Well, that's fantastic. So, can you give me an example in your life or that you've read about in the modern world of the good guys winning?
01:34:15 And not just winning for a brief amount of time, but a sort of substantial victory?
01:34:20 Well, I kind of... that I got this fantastic husband and I'm able to be a stay-at-home mom, like a big win, even though a lot of my friends, or not friends, but people close...
01:34:45 But are you winning... hang on, are you winning if you're constantly fighting tears?
01:34:52 No.
01:34:55 So, I appreciate that you have a great husband, I think that's obviously wonderful.
01:34:59 I appreciate that you have a stay-at-home... you're a stay-at-home mom and you love your kids, but this constant sadness is not what I would call winning. Is that fair to say?
01:35:09 Yeah, that's very fair to say.
01:35:11 Okay, so who is it that you see who wins? A good person who wins?
01:35:19 Hmm. I'm having trouble, I think, getting an example.
01:35:48 But even though I have this sadness over me, I will still kind of call it winning that I managed to have this life that I always wanted, that I dreamt of.
01:36:00 No, because the life you wanted is not also being constantly sad, right?
01:36:04 Okay.
01:36:07 I mean, if you get the life that you want, it's what you have without the sadness, right?
01:36:13 Yes, yes, correct. That's exactly what I want.
01:36:16 Right, okay. And that's what I'm really working here to try and provide as best I can.
01:36:21 So, if it's true that bad people run the world and good people don't win, how can we be happy?
01:36:40 I mean, this is a big question, right?
01:36:43 I'm sorry I'm not just answering you straight away.
01:36:47 No, it's a horrible question. I mean, this is a very fundamental question.
01:36:51 Yeah, but it's a great question.
01:36:55 I mean, it's the question in many ways. You know what the Bible says, "He who increases in wisdom also increases in what?"
01:37:09 I can't remember.
01:37:11 "He who increases," or in this case, "she who increases in wisdom also increases in sorrow."
01:37:20 Oh.
01:37:25 The more you know, the...
01:37:27 The worse it is.
01:37:28 Yeah, the worse it is, yes.
01:37:30 Right. How do we know the true nature of the world and not despair?
01:37:37 Especially when we have kids, right?
01:37:41 Yeah. Help me out.
01:37:44 Oh, you want an answer to that? No, no, no, it's a tough question. I'm not going to answer tough questions. That's hard.
01:37:49 Why?
01:37:51 No, but I want to make sure that we're in the right area of talking.
01:37:56 I think we are.
01:38:05 Well...
01:38:11 Do you think that your sadness has something to do with seeing this at some level in your soul or your heart or your mind?
01:38:22 To see that the bad people always win?
01:38:26 Well, the bad people win because most people will follow the bad people.
01:38:30 Most people don't have a moral center, and they follow power.
01:38:35 Now, bad people are more willing to exercise power than good people.
01:38:39 And since most people follow power, most people will follow the bad people.
01:38:45 But I am aware of that, so I wouldn't like being aware of this also kind of zero it out, if you understand what I mean.
01:39:05 Well, it's one thing to know something. It's another thing to live it.
01:39:09 It's one thing to know how to lose weight. It's another thing to lose weight.
01:39:12 It's one thing to know how to exercise. It's another thing to actually exercise.
01:39:17 So what does it mean to put this knowledge into practice?
01:39:23 That's the big question.
01:39:26 Because what is the purpose of knowledge?
01:39:28 The purpose of knowledge is to help you pursue a good or avoid a bad.
01:39:34 So the knowledge of exercise is to pursue physical strength.
01:39:38 The knowledge of nutrition is to pursue good eating or avoid obesity or diabetes or whatever it is.
01:39:46 So the purpose of knowledge is to help us gain a good and/or avoid a bad.
01:39:52 Does that sort of make sense?
01:39:54 Yes.
01:39:55 Okay.
01:39:56 So the purpose of this knowledge of the nature of the world and the dominance of immorality,
01:40:04 the purpose of this knowledge is to help us achieve a good or avoid a bad.
01:40:12 So, I mean, in my life, I mean, I don't want to say like I'm sort of some sort of ideal,
01:40:18 but in my life, I use it to know that if I'm going to have people in my life,
01:40:27 they need to be staunchly and deeply wise and moral.
01:40:33 And they need to know this about the world because if they don't know this about the world,
01:40:38 they will betray me.
01:40:47 Knowing this about the world means you have to be very picky.
01:40:51 And listen, I'm far from perfect at this in a million different ways,
01:40:54 so I'm not claiming any great success or knowledge.
01:40:57 I think I've finally settled in my 50s.
01:41:00 I'm trying to help you not have to wait that long.
01:41:03 You don't wait another 20 years.
01:41:05 So what do you do with this knowledge?
01:41:11 Well, you try to spread it as I do.
01:41:15 If people reject this knowledge, it means that they're not probably safe to be around
01:41:21 because one day, and that day may not be decades from now,
01:41:25 one day the evil doers will come to everyone you know.
01:41:32 And they will say, "Betray the good and I'll throw you a treat.
01:41:39 Betray the good and I'll leave you alone.
01:41:43 Betray the good, I'll give you some money.
01:41:46 Betray the good, and I won't lie about you as well."
01:41:51 That day, if it hasn't already come, for some people it has,
01:41:56 that day is not an infinity of years away.
01:42:01 The devils, so to speak, are going to come to everyone you know
01:42:09 and ask them or beg them or command them or threaten them or cajole them to betray you.
01:42:17 Do you have people in your life who are solid in their defense against this temptation?
01:42:31 Hmm.
01:42:45 Yeah, good question. Maybe I don't.
01:42:50 Well, who is in your life who in the past has betrayed you and has not,
01:42:56 at least in my view, and correct me if I'm wrong,
01:42:59 has not sufficiently acknowledged or made amends?
01:43:02 Yeah, it's my parents.
01:43:04 It is your parents?
01:43:05 Yes.
01:43:10 The sadness, I think, has a lot to do with the silence around your family,
01:43:15 your family of origin, because you're with them every day
01:43:19 and you have, I think, important things to say that they don't want you to talk about.
01:43:31 I think that's true.
01:43:34 And so if you're silenced out of fear, then you are already betraying yourself.
01:43:46 Yes.
01:43:48 Because you're siding with those who have power, i.e. your parents,
01:43:52 against the truth of your existence, the truth of your history.
01:43:57 I'm just passionate. I'm not yelling at you.
01:44:02 You were saying, "I'm going to be bullied into keeping quiet,
01:44:10 but then I'm also going to complain that my friends were bullied into abandoning me.
01:44:15 I will abandon my truth because I'm afraid of my parents,
01:44:18 but I also feel really bad when my friends as children abandon me
01:44:22 because bullies would maybe target them.
01:44:25 So I'm afraid of my parents."
01:44:28 And I mean, you're a mother. I'm a father.
01:44:32 Would you ever, ever, ever, ever want your children to be too terrified
01:44:38 to bring up something important with you because they were just terrified of you?
01:44:45 No, of course not.
01:44:48 Well, why don't you bring up your past with your parents?
01:44:53 Okay. I've thought a lot about this.
01:44:57 I've talked a lot, so I'm happy to hear.
01:45:00 Because for a long period, I tried to bring it up to my parents,
01:45:12 and it always ended up fighting.
01:45:18 Sorry, it always ended up what?
01:45:20 It would fight.
01:45:22 Oh, there would be a fight. They would fight with you.
01:45:24 Yeah, or it was like I always got a mental block
01:45:34 and didn't remember what I was going to say,
01:45:36 or my mom is really good with words, so she made good points, fair points.
01:45:45 So then I, yeah.
01:45:49 And also she, or the points weren't good, but just I felt I couldn't.
01:46:00 You couldn't answer, right?
01:46:01 Yeah, I couldn't answer. I couldn't get anything out of the...
01:46:04 Now, did your parents think that you were lying about what happened for you in the past?
01:46:14 No, I don't think they...
01:46:23 No, I think they thought I told the truth.
01:46:30 But I've tried to like, because they do a lot of good deeds now,
01:46:39 so I try to like think that that's their way of addressing...
01:46:44 Wait, sorry, they do a lot of good deeds for you now?
01:46:47 Yes.
01:46:49 Right.
01:46:50 So I'm trying to like...
01:46:51 But hang on, but the one good deed you need is for them to listen.
01:46:56 Yes, I know, but...
01:46:58 But they're not doing that, are they?
01:47:00 No, and I...
01:47:01 So all their other good deeds are just manipulation.
01:47:03 If the one thing that you most need from them they won't provide,
01:47:07 every other good deed they do is just manipulation to shut you up, in my humble opinion.
01:47:12 I don't think so.
01:47:14 Well, if the one thing you need the most...
01:47:16 Okay, let me ask you this.
01:47:17 Do your parents know that you have been sad for a quarter of a century, for 25 or so years?
01:47:27 No, I don't think so.
01:47:30 Do you know when your children are sad?
01:47:34 Yes.
01:47:35 Okay.
01:47:37 How on earth is it possible for your parents to not know that you've been on and off on the verge of tears for 25 years?
01:47:49 [Pause]
01:48:08 But like, maybe they know, but they think it's like just that I am emotional?
01:48:16 No, you're sad.
01:48:18 Yeah.
01:48:20 Either they don't know or they don't care.
01:48:24 There's no other choice.
01:48:27 Either they don't know or they don't care.
01:48:32 I don't honestly know which one is worse.
01:48:36 I'm happy if there's something I have missed, I'm certainly happy.
01:48:41 I really need to hear this.
01:48:47 But I kind of think that I know I'm never going to get the apology I really, really need,
01:48:57 but I'm trying to, like all the things they are doing for me now, I'm trying to put that into an apology.
01:49:10 Okay.
01:49:11 It becomes an apology.
01:49:12 Hang on.
01:49:13 I'm trying to give you the sort of antidote here.
01:49:15 You know what the opposite of sadness is?
01:49:18 It's not happiness.
01:49:20 Meaning?
01:49:22 No.
01:49:23 No.
01:49:24 Okay.
01:49:25 The opposite of sadness is acceptance.
01:49:31 Okay.
01:49:32 So if you're waiting for an apology, you will be constantly sad that you're not getting an apology.
01:49:42 I don't know if you've ever had it where you've lent someone money and they just don't pay you back.
01:49:49 So I mean I've had this in the past where I've lent people money and they don't pay me back.
01:49:55 Now, when do I stop being upset about them not paying me back?
01:50:00 Well, either when they pay me back, but let's assume they don't pay me back.
01:50:05 When do I gain a peace?
01:50:08 When am I no longer upset that they're not paying me back?
01:50:12 Yeah, when you give up or --
01:50:14 Yeah, yeah.
01:50:15 You stop waiting for them to pay you back.
01:50:17 You accept they're never going to pay you back and that's just the way that it is.
01:50:24 And then you move on with your life, right?
01:50:26 Yes.
01:50:28 So maybe the sadness is waiting for the apology without accepting it's never coming.
01:50:50 And what does it mean -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
01:50:52 Yeah, I think you're right, but I don't want to hear it.
01:50:57 What are you feeling?
01:50:59 Yeah, like I can't express it.
01:51:11 Like kind of very -- it's very good that someone else put something into words that I haven't managed to do.
01:51:24 Well, would you like to feel even worse?
01:51:28 Maybe.
01:51:30 You can take it.
01:51:31 Are you ready?
01:51:32 Yeah, give it to me.
01:51:33 All right, all right.
01:51:34 You're a strong person.
01:51:36 Now, what are you teaching your children?
01:51:43 By having people around who've done you significant harm, never acknowledged really, never apologized really,
01:51:51 and you can't be honest with, who dominate you by demanding silence which you comply with.
01:51:59 What are you teaching your children by having this around them?
01:52:05 What are they picking up?
01:52:06 Because, you know, kids see everything, they learn everything, they notice everything.
01:52:12 What are you and your husband -- he's part of this, of course, right?
01:52:15 What are you and your husband teaching your children when people who've done you wrong,
01:52:22 who've never really apologized, are welcome in your house?
01:52:25 Yeah, evil, the bad guys or what we talked about.
01:52:30 So, again, I don't know where evil sits with regards to your parents, but I will certainly say that, you know,
01:52:38 they've done you wrong and, you know, you're a parent, you make mistakes, I'm a parent, I make mistakes,
01:52:42 and we confess our mistakes and we apologize and we make restitution, you know, the normal wear and tear of human relationships.
01:52:51 What are you and your husband teaching your children?
01:52:57 You're teaching your children, I believe, they're your kids, so I'm just telling you this from the other side of the world,
01:53:02 so don't take anything seriously if it doesn't fit your experience.
01:53:05 But I think that what you're teaching your kids is, oh, yeah, you can totally do people great harm
01:53:13 and then just bully them if they try and tell you about it and you get all the resources you want --
01:53:18 time, attention, access to the grandchildren, love, dinners, sleepovers like you.
01:53:26 You can harm people all you want, but then all you have to do is refuse to apologize and they'll give you everything.
01:53:33 You never have to acknowledge any wrong or harm that you do.
01:53:41 In fact, that's the worst thing to do.
01:53:44 The best thing to do is to never admit that you're wrong, to attack the other person for even bringing it up,
01:53:50 and then you own them. They'll give you everything.
01:53:54 [Pause]
01:54:05 I mean, imagine if someone who'd done me great harm in the world that my daughter knew about --
01:54:11 my daughter, I don't know, woke up in the morning and I'm just having a pleasant brunch with that person.
01:54:18 What would my daughter think?
01:54:31 Have you ever really finally overcome the bullying?
01:54:40 Or to put it another way, were you bullied at school because you were bullied at home
01:54:46 and you didn't have the support and you didn't have the love and you didn't have the understanding
01:54:51 and you didn't have the welcoming of criticism that is essential to every relationship?
01:54:55 Every relationship that attacks criticism is dictatorial, bullying, and censorship-based.
01:55:07 Everyone does things that are wrong and bad and thoughtless and careless and maybe even a little mean.
01:55:12 We all do that. It's not the end of the world. It's not bad.
01:55:17 But what keeps us healthy is the willingness to accept criticism and listen to the wrongs that we've done.
01:55:26 And if other people are terrified of us to the point where they won't bring up criticisms,
01:55:31 or we punish them for bringing up criticisms -- I mean, you've heard this on a million live streams,
01:55:39 what I say, questions, comments, issues, criticisms.
01:55:44 Something I've done wrong, something I've done badly, something I explained poorly, something that I've --
01:55:49 and I've done entire shows, I was wrong about this, I was wrong about that.
01:55:53 My ego is not based upon being right.
01:55:58 My ego is based upon the process of philosophy, not any specific conclusion.
01:56:03 Now, where's your husband in all of this?
01:56:09 He knows the wrongs that your family did to you, your parents did to you as a child, right?
01:56:13 Yes.
01:56:15 Now, what are his standards for having them in his life, around his wife, around his child?
01:56:23 I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be. I don't know.
01:56:25 But I would not want somebody around anyone I care about that that person couldn't be honest with them
01:56:35 because they were frightened of the response.
01:56:40 But, yeah, I think he just -- he feels -- I'm just guessing that he thinks that since they are kind of helping us so much now
01:56:54 that they are not to be held responsible.
01:56:59 It won't help to have a conversation with them because the peace has finally kind of come.
01:57:12 No, and I mean, I can't speak to that.
01:57:15 But just as sad, which means something's fundamentally wrong, most likely with your relationships.
01:57:23 Right. So does he say -- I mean, he knows -- does he know -- sorry, I shouldn't say --
01:57:29 does he know that you're frightened to tell your parents the truth because you're going to be attacked or dismissed or whatever?
01:57:37 Yeah, I think so.
01:57:40 You think so?
01:57:41 Yes, he knows.
01:57:43 Okay, so he knows that your parents used aggression to silence you.
01:57:48 If that's the wrong way to put it, I apologize and I would try to be more --
01:57:53 That's correct.
01:57:54 Okay, so your parents used aggression to silence you.
01:57:57 And what, that's fine for your husband to have you exposed to that?
01:58:05 I mean, he knows your history of being bullied. Does he think that more bullying is somehow going to make it better?
01:58:20 I think he thinks that -- or also maybe I believe this -- is that if we have this conversation,
01:58:31 and even if I get a sincere and good apology, maybe my sadness doesn't go away.
01:58:39 And if they don't apologize, it doesn't go away.
01:58:44 So anyways, it's just the conflict, it's not worth it.
01:58:52 No, but I'm sorry. Oh, gosh. I don't want to speak for him.
01:58:56 And of course, he's welcome to call in as well.
01:58:59 But it's not up to him, it's not up to you.
01:59:04 I mean, I won't say it doesn't matter. Of course, it matters what happens to you, but that's not the fundamental issue.
01:59:11 Okay, how much did you enjoy watching your parents get bullied?
01:59:20 I didn't like that.
01:59:22 Okay, how much do your children enjoy watching you get bullied?
01:59:30 And they know.
01:59:33 Yes.
01:59:34 They know. You know, you've got three of them. I mean, I've got one and she knows everything.
01:59:38 You've got three. Heaven help you, right?
01:59:41 Yeah.
01:59:42 It's like instant LED social credit score in their eyeballs, right?
01:59:48 How much do your children enjoy watching you?
01:59:52 Because listen, they probably get it by instinct at the moment, but when they get older, they'll learn about your childhood, right?
01:59:58 Yeah.
01:59:59 And they'll say, wait, what?
02:00:03 You want us to stand up for our beliefs? You want us to be honest?
02:00:07 When you weren't honest with your own parents, you got pushed around by them because you were scared of them?
02:00:15 Do you know, I mean, you're a mother, I'm a father to repeat myself.
02:00:20 You and I both know how easy it is to scare our children, right?
02:00:24 Yes.
02:00:25 Now, of course, as peaceful parents, it's something we would never, ever do.
02:00:30 No.
02:00:31 But we know how easy it is to use aggression against our children, how helpless they are, how dependent they are, how they have no choice, no options, no power, no pushback, at least until they get to their teenage years, right?
02:00:44 Yes.
02:00:46 I can't tell you myself, this is my feeling, not saying this should be your feeling, my feeling is that parents who bully their own children are just about the most contemptible cowards in the known universe.
02:00:59 Yes.
02:01:00 It's a horrible, ghastly, monstrous, vile abuse of power.
02:01:10 You should never, ever bully your own children.
02:01:17 Because you have so much power and they're so helpless.
02:01:30 And if your parents, when you bring up something that's uncomfortable with them, they just escalate and they're aggressive and they bully a little or maybe more than a little, that is a terrible abuse of power.
02:01:43 I don't like having that kind of abuse of power in my environment, which is why I work to resolve it wherever possible.
02:01:55 To gain certainty and closure about it.
02:01:59 If there are people in my life who I think have done me wrong, I could be wrong, I mean, just because I feel wronged doesn't mean that somebody's wronged me, just because I feel hurt doesn't mean that somebody's hurt me.
02:02:10 But if I have that, then I sit down and I have a conversation.
02:02:18 Isn't that being honest? Isn't honesty a virtue?
02:02:22 And don't you want to model that for your kids? I'm not saying your kids would sit in on this conversation because they know everything, they don't need to.
02:02:29 No, no, of course not.
02:02:31 But I would hate for you to go through one more day of being bullied, my friend.
02:02:39 I mean, you had it tough as a kid, man.
02:02:41 A lot of bullying to be exposed to, from the small church, from the teachers, from your parents, you had your hand broken, aggression now.
02:02:52 I mean, that's 25 years or more of being bullied.
02:02:56 I wouldn't want to make it 25.0001 years of being bullied.
02:03:04 Does that make sense? It breaks my heart that you're still in a situation where you're silenced by aggression.
02:03:20 I'm just imagining having the conversation and I know it probably will go badly.
02:03:37 Well, we can try it if you like, if you want to pretend to be your mother.
02:03:41 Okay.
02:03:43 Alright, you ready?
02:03:45 Okay.
02:03:50 I feel that may be culturally specific.
02:03:52 Alright.
02:03:54 Okay.
02:03:55 Alright, mom, I need to sit you down.
02:03:58 I've really been thinking about my childhood and it was pretty bad.
02:04:07 I was bullied in school for years and I'm even terrified to have this conversation with you now because I know we've tried it before and you just seem to get really impatient or angry or you get kind of unemotional and like a lawyer or something.
02:04:21 I'm really am. Amy, do you know that I've been kind of fairly tragically sad for like 25 years, like since I was eight or nine years old?
02:04:33 I've just had this fairly constant feeling of just sadness and I think it has something to do with my childhood.
02:04:39 I think maybe the bullying or I don't know, the moving around or that time when dad broke my hand, which obviously was pretty terrifying.
02:04:50 And I just really feel the need to talk about it because things went really not well for me as a kid and it's still not going well for me as an adult and I think it's related.
02:05:10 I just need to think.
02:05:17 I think she would reply with something like...
02:05:27 Oh, my mind goes a little blank.
02:05:33 Just give me a sec.
02:05:40 Like me and your dad always tried to do the best we could for you.
02:05:48 We tried to play with the open cards, but it wasn't easy for us either.
02:05:53 And she would usually say, "Oh, yeah, I'm a bad mother."
02:06:04 Okay, so that's fine. So then she would say, "We did the best we could," and then she'd be like, "Oh, I guess I'm just a bad mother," and this kind of stuff, right?
02:06:12 Okay, so if they say, "Well, we did the best we could," I'm like, "I don't know that that's true."
02:06:17 Now that I'm a mother myself, I don't know that I would let my kid get bullied for a year or two before being really decisive about it and solving the problem.
02:06:27 I mean, that was really tough for me.
02:06:30 And I know that you and dad were going through the thing with the church and I know you were sick and so on, but a year or two while I'm getting bullied at school, that's not doing the best you could.
02:06:43 And I can't believe that you're the only parent in the history of the world who's never made any mistakes.
02:06:48 I mean, that's just not the case. Everybody makes mistakes. I make mistakes as a parent and you have made mistakes.
02:06:53 So if you say, "Well, I just did the best I could," or "We did the best we could," there's no way to measure that.
02:06:58 There's no way to know that and it shows a truly shocking lack of self-criticism of any feedback that you could give yourself about how you could have done anything better.
02:07:07 Are you saying as a parent, you never did anything wrong, that you never did anything that you could have conceivably done better for the last 35 years?
02:07:22 She would just say that she – yeah.
02:07:31 It's tough, right? Because she either has to say, "No, I've been a perfect parent," which is insane, right?
02:07:37 Or she'd have to say, "Well, I could have done this or that better."
02:07:40 And then you say, "Okay, so then when you told me you did the very best you could, that was a lie."
02:07:45 Right? Because she'd be lying then.
02:07:47 So either she sticks to her guns and says, "I was a perfect parent," in which case, how did you not know that I've been miserable for 25 years?
02:07:55 Or she says, "Well, I could have done this or that better."
02:07:58 And it's like, "Okay, then you just lied to me when you said you did the best you could because like literally 10 seconds later, you're telling me that you could have done things better."
02:08:06 So I would appreciate it if you would stop lying to me, mother, about these really important things.
02:08:13 Because I think she believes that she is a really perfect parent.
02:08:18 Well, that's straight-up narcissism, isn't it?
02:08:20 Like I am the measure of everything that's good and everything that criticizes me is obviously immoral and doesn't understand my magnificent wonderfulness or whatever nonsense, right?
02:08:30 Okay, so then you have somebody who can't accept any criticism.
02:08:34 And that means that all the problems in the relationship land on who?
02:08:40 Others.
02:08:42 Not others, my friend.
02:08:44 You.
02:08:45 Well, maybe your brother, but he's not part of this conversation right now.
02:08:48 No, they all land on you.
02:08:49 Like by definition, if I'm doing everything perfectly, then every problem we have must be 100% you, right?
02:08:55 Yes.
02:08:56 Okay.
02:08:57 So then you have to be in a situation if you want to be in a relationship with a parent where even though they gave birth to you, they defined the relationship, they set the whole standard, they ran the whole household, they paid all the bills, they were in control of everything, 100% of the problems are because you did something wrong.
02:09:11 Whoa, no, thank you.
02:09:13 Like, no, no, absolutely not.
02:09:16 I wouldn't accept that.
02:09:17 Would you?
02:09:18 I obviously am.
02:09:23 Well, no, I mean, you had to when you were a kid.
02:09:26 I mean, if you have really selfish parents that way, you have to accept that lie as a kid, because if you push back against it, they're just going to get more aggressive and maybe get your other hand broken.
02:09:38 But now you don't.
02:09:42 Breaking those bonds of childhood and feeling powerful as an adult in the exact same place that you were helpless as a child is the fundamental challenge of maturity, at least it has been for me.
02:09:54 You have power as an adult in the exact same circumstance that you were powerless in as a child.
02:10:03 That's the fundamental test of maturity.
02:10:06 Does that make sense?
02:10:08 Yes.
02:10:10 You can be honest with your parents now.
02:10:13 They don't control your life.
02:10:16 They don't control your house.
02:10:18 They don't control your marriage.
02:10:19 They don't control your finances.
02:10:25 How do we get out of childhood unhappiness?
02:10:28 We act like we're not children anymore.
02:10:32 I don't want to say anything as ridiculous and insulting as "Grow up."
02:10:37 I don't mean anything in a million miles like that.
02:10:39 I'm just saying that if you were unhappy as a child but you're still using that childhood mindset, it's going to be virtually impossible for you to let go of that unhappiness if you have still the same mindset as you had when you were helpless.
02:10:53 You can't feel powerful if you're still thinking the same way that you thought when you were helpless.
02:11:00 Good point.
02:11:02 You can tell the truth to your parents and maybe they'll get upset.
02:11:08 When you were a kid and they got upset, that was really dangerous.
02:11:14 How do you signal to your unconscious that things have changed?
02:11:18 You act like they've changed just thinking that they've changed won't do it.
02:11:22 If you want to lose weight, then you have to actually stop putting food in your mouth and exercise more.
02:11:32 Just thinking about it isn't going to do anything.
02:11:34 You have to change your behaviors in order to signal to your unconscious.
02:11:38 The unconscious is just a loop.
02:11:40 It's just the same thing over and over again until we signal something different.
02:11:46 The way you signal something different is where you were formerly powerless, you reject that powerlessness and you accept that you have power, authority, independence, and control.
02:12:01 When I was a kid, when my mother would scream and throw things, I was terrified.
02:12:04 Of course I was because I had no other avenue for survival and she was in charge of everything.
02:12:11 When I was an adult and I confronted her and she screamed and threw things, I won't say I laughed, but it wasn't the same.
02:12:17 I could just get up, walk out, get in my little Volvo car and drive home.
02:12:22 I couldn't do that when I was a kid.
02:12:24 I didn't have a car.
02:12:25 I didn't have a separate place.
02:12:26 I didn't have my own bank account.
02:12:28 I didn't have, right?
02:12:30 So you're an adult now and you can annoy your parents.
02:12:36 What are they going to do?
02:12:39 They might get angry.
02:12:41 Okay, so they get angry, but you're not a kid anymore.
02:12:43 You're independent.
02:12:46 But if you still act around them like you're a little kid who's utterly dependent on them and can never afford to upset them, then of course you're going to continue to feel what you felt as a child, the sadness, the unhappiness, the helplessness.
02:13:03 You're going to feel that because you're still having the same mindset, the same frame of mind.
02:13:10 I can never upset mommy and daddy.
02:13:13 If I upset mommy and daddy, I'm doomed, which is a perfectly rational thing to think as a child and an irrational thing to still believe as an adult.
02:13:26 I assume your eight-year-old isn't in diapers anymore.
02:13:30 No.
02:13:33 Right? Because it was appropriate for him when he was a baby or she was a baby.
02:13:36 Not appropriate now, right?
02:13:39 But, wow, this conversation is going to change me.
02:13:46 It's changing me.
02:13:48 The circumstances, the surroundings in my life right now, my relationships with them, it's kind of good.
02:14:04 No, it's not, because you're sad.
02:14:09 That's why you called me.
02:14:11 Isn't there a short cut?
02:14:13 It's not good because you're sad.
02:14:15 And you've been sad since you were under their control.
02:14:18 And guess what?
02:14:19 You still feel like you're under their control.
02:14:27 It's only good because you appease them at your own expense and your children's expense and your husband's expense, too.
02:14:40 It's okay to get along with bullies as long as you comply, but you lose yourself.
02:14:47 Yeah.
02:14:52 I lose myself. I stay.
02:14:54 Doctor, I'm perfectly healthy if you don't count the giant tumor.
02:14:59 I'm afraid we cannot overlook that since that's the whole reason you're here.
02:15:19 How long have you listened to What It Is That I Do?
02:15:30 Seven years, give or take.
02:15:34 It has been on and off.
02:15:37 I bet it's been on and off.
02:15:40 When I go swimming with snorkeling without a scuba gear, I go down and then I come back up again because I can't breathe down there.
02:15:48 So I get it's been on and off because you get close to this and then you recoil or rather you get close to this and then your parents in your head, they tell you not to do it.
02:15:59 So here you're listening to me saying, yeah, honesty is the first virtue.
02:16:03 And are you being honest with your parents?
02:16:05 No.
02:16:08 Out of fear.
02:16:11 I mean, occasionally we tell less than the truth out of a certain kind of compassion, but mostly it's out of fear.
02:16:18 Yeah, of course. It's out of fear.
02:16:24 And the big danger, and that sort of ends with this, right?
02:16:26 So the big danger, though, is that there's part of us that this may not be part of you.
02:16:33 I'd say this part of me is like, well, I'll just comply until they're dead.
02:16:39 I'll just comply until they're dead and then I'll be fine.
02:16:43 Right? I mean, come on. What could it mean? Another 20 years? I could do that.
02:16:49 I can handle that. I mean, they're not vampires. They're not immortal.
02:16:54 At some point they'll be dead and then it'll all be behind me.
02:16:59 I can handle this. It's a marathon. It's not a sprint.
02:17:06 It just hurts so bad to do this.
02:17:10 I know. I mean, I know I'm making fun, but there's a bit of it. Come on.
02:17:14 Now, of course, you know, I'm 57. My mother's still alive. So you might have more than a couple of decades to go.
02:17:20 But the problem is, you know how it replicates?
02:17:25 That your children will grow up unconsciously watching you appease bad guys, so to speak, or out of fear, they will see you appease people.
02:17:40 Children are drawn to power. So do they want to be someone who bows and crawls and appeases and lies?
02:17:48 Or do they want to be the people in charge? Right. Especially your boys.
02:17:56 Yes. Right. The boys are drawn to power. And who holds the power in your relationship with your parents?
02:18:02 Yeah, my parents. Your parents do. So your boys and your girls, too, to some degree, a little bit more with boys.
02:18:08 They're going to grow up. And who are they going to imitate? You? Or grandma and granddad?
02:18:17 I can tell you who who are they? Oh, I know they're going to imitate. Who are they going to be drawn to?
02:18:23 Yeah, my parents. Yeah. So they'll be like, OK, well, if we treat mom like we just push her around and we just aggressive, we just aggress against her.
02:18:34 She'll just appease us. Right. So then your parents kind of age out of the situation, whether that means an old age home or they die or something like that.
02:18:44 And who takes their place? My boys.
02:18:52 Maybe the girl, too, or maybe the girl just sees this and then she's like just dates a guy who's like mom and dad, your mom and dad.
02:18:59 So they'll come back. You think you just you're going to outlive your parents and it'll be fine? No, no. They will recreate in your kids.
02:19:14 Because they won't have as much respect for you because they see you lying and appeasing.
02:19:20 And so they're like, oh, well, when we have conflicts with mom, we just escalate and then she'll just fold. Right.
02:19:27 Yes. So then it'd be like, bye, mom and dad. Hello, mom and dad. Right. Exit and come in the other side. Right.
02:19:38 And then you will end up escalating to try and dominate them, because escalation is how you get things done. Right. According to you and your parents, escalation is how you get things done.
02:19:47 So your kids will escalate with you and then you'll end up escalating with your kids. And then I guess we're not free after all, are we?
02:19:58 Like, that's just you can't. You know, it's a funny thing.
02:20:02 I remember when I was in health class, you know, like basically the sexually transmitted disease class that they have when you're young.
02:20:11 And I remember somebody saying the teacher, I was like the gym teacher, one of those red faced, awkward guys talking about peepees and for JJ's.
02:20:21 And he was he was saying, and if you get crabs, I remember him saying this, if you get crabs and you think you could just sit in the tub until they drown, trust me, those crabs can stay underwater a lot longer than you can.
02:20:34 I remember him saying I remember that like sticking with me. And it's kind of like, yeah, I mean, if you say I will appease my way into virtue, you just end up with more war. Right.
02:20:48 Yes.
02:20:51 And your kids need to see good people. Listen.
02:20:55 The best we can achieve in this world is a personal victory and a social draw.
02:21:04 We can't win because there are too many people who will side with the bullies. We can't win yet. Right.
02:21:10 We can win. So you've got a personal victory. Like you say, your life, your husband is great and your kids are great. And that's I mean, that's your life. Right.
02:21:18 So you can have a personal victory and a social draw. A social draw means they haven't won. You haven't won, but it's OK for now. Yes.
02:21:29 And then we just hope that the next generation, peaceful parenting and so on, can take it from there. Right.
02:21:35 So how do you win knowing the immorality of the world, you make your world as moral as possible, but that means telling the damn truth.
02:21:50 And that's the biggest victory we can get. And if you accept that, in my view, if you accept that that's the biggest victory you can get, then you don't feel sad for not getting more.
02:22:00 Like I don't feel sad for not being nine feet tall. I don't feel short for not being there because, you know, that's the unrealistic standard.
02:22:07 So when you adjust your expectations to reality, there you find happiness.
02:22:13 But unfortunately, you've had my brain worm in your head for seven years and it's hungry for truth. It needs to feed.
02:22:21 Yes. Does that make sense? Yes. How did we do with the conversation as a whole? I feel like we did kind of roam around quite a bit.
02:22:31 Well, I loved it. It was amazing.
02:22:37 It was not too stressful, right? I mean, I remember at the beginning and even in the emails, you're like, oh, I'm so nervous. And I get that. And I appreciate that.
02:22:43 I know it's a bit of an unusual situation, but it's not bad, right?
02:22:48 I wish I was better at English because it has been a struggle.
02:22:54 Oh, listen, you've done fantastically. And I was just thinking about that with the role play when you started.
02:22:59 I'm like, oh, yeah, role play as your mom in English. Good luck with that. That's really tough.
02:23:06 Because your mom wouldn't be speaking in English, right? So it's really it's like a four way translation. So I appreciate that was a lot to ask.
02:23:13 But I really, really wanted to manage the role play.
02:23:17 But when I've heard role play on different conversations we've had, it's fantastic.
02:23:26 And then I can hear my mom through others.
02:23:30 Yeah. And I wanted to mention, too, if your mother does say, oh, I guess it was just a terrible mother, then you say, oh, take her at face value.
02:23:37 Oh, so what were you terrible at? And she's like, oh, I don't mean it that way.
02:23:40 I'm like, oh, so you just lied again. Like you just lied again to me and you just manipulated me again.
02:23:44 Can you have a conversation without lying to me and manipulating me? Is that possible?
02:23:48 Because that seems like something that you should criticize yourself about.
02:23:52 All right. It's been a long chat. How are you feeling? How are you doing?
02:23:57 I feel like I am bleeding, but in a good way, hopefully in a medieval kind of way.
02:24:05 This conversation changed my life.
02:24:09 I'm perfectly thrilled. Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
02:24:13 Yes, I will. You and your husband are certainly welcome to call if there's anything I can do to help.
02:24:18 And I just wanted to say, like you, it's a great honor and a privilege for me to talk to you.
02:24:24 I just wanted to let you know that because I think that who you are is fantastic.
02:24:30 I mean, you're obviously committed to truth and you're great at conversation and you listen well and you speak eloquently.
02:24:37 I know that it's a little limited by language, but I do get the thoughts behind it.
02:24:41 And also where you've come to for peaceful parenting from where you came from is incredible.
02:24:46 And I just admire that journey so much. You're way further ahead in your life than I was at your age.
02:24:51 And I just think that's a wonderful thing. And you should be, I think, very proud of that.
02:24:57 Thank you so much. That was very good words. I'll take them with me.
02:25:01 All right. Well, keep me posted and thanks so much for the call.
02:25:04 Yes, I will. OK. Bye bye.
02:25:07 Bye.
02:25:07 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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