Dateline Nbc 2025 S03 E07

Mega NoVeLas 2025

Transcript

00:00:00Tonight on Dateline, you've been known as the doomsday mom, good one Keith, most hated

00:00:07mom in America.

00:00:08I heard that.

00:00:09I thought we were going to be friends.

00:00:12I'm friends with everybody.

00:00:13I love everybody.

00:00:15She's the notorious mother tangled in a dark web of murder, Lori Vallow Daybell.

00:00:22It's mind blowing.

00:00:23The media loves to take tragedies and turn them into crimes.

00:00:27Children, spouses, gone.

00:00:29So tell me what happened to Tylee and JJ.

00:00:32Did you kill them?

00:00:33Is that where you're going?

00:00:34Now, the first television interview ever.

00:00:37I'm asking you a question.

00:00:40Did you watch your children die?

00:00:42That's a really sad question.

00:00:44That's my mom, you know, my siblings are gone.

00:00:47If she would ever tell anybody the truth, you'd think it would be you.

00:00:50That's what she said.

00:00:51She is calculated.

00:00:53You did not kill a soul.

00:00:54Absolutely not.

00:00:56What proof and evidence is there?

00:00:58All these rumors.

00:01:01You've heard a lot of stuff, but what I tell you will be the truth.

00:01:04Will she reveal her secrets at last?

00:01:07An interview like you've never seen.

00:01:10I'm Lester Holt, and this is Dateline.

00:01:21Here's Keith Morrison with Lori Vallow Daybell, The Jailhouse Interview.

00:01:33Now as I look back at this scene, I cannot help but wonder.

00:01:37The one in orange, I need hardly tell you, was, perhaps still is, the most infamous woman

00:01:43in America, Lori Vallow.

00:01:46What was she thinking just here?

00:01:49What was her plan?

00:01:51That she had one would seem quite obvious soon enough.

00:01:56But not yet.

00:01:57Not here.

00:01:58As her jailers led her down a bland white hallway in Phoenix, Arizona's jail for women.

00:02:07And yes, I felt a moral twinge.

00:02:11This would get her some attention.

00:02:12Apparently they have to stay on.

00:02:13They do?

00:02:14Go figure.

00:02:15I talked with my hands and I was going to be able to talk.

00:02:16Well, there you go.

00:02:17We'll do the best we can.

00:02:19But perhaps, half a decade after the events that put her here, she would finally tell

00:02:24us why.

00:02:25Say hi.

00:02:26Why her children are dead.

00:02:29And her ex-husband, and her lover's wife.

00:02:32Why all that death and mayhem?

00:02:36But Lori Vallow, as I was about to discover, had her own unique way of dealing with nosy

00:02:42interrogators.

00:02:44You're the most hated mom in America?

00:02:47I heard that.

00:02:48And we all know what the media does.

00:02:49And they exaggerate everything.

00:02:51And they make stuff up.

00:02:52And they twist things around.

00:02:53So I don't know how it became what it is today.

00:02:57It's amazing to me.

00:02:58And I don't really know.

00:02:59And I'm not exposed to what's going on out there.

00:03:01Are you misunderstood?

00:03:03Absolutely.

00:03:04But, yeah.

00:03:05Misunderstood how?

00:03:06I mean, how did they get you wrong?

00:03:09In every way.

00:03:10I mean, how do you know a person if you've never talked to them in five years?

00:03:14How do you know anything about them?

00:03:15How do you know anything about their life?

00:03:16About how it really is?

00:03:19You remember the case, right?

00:03:20Who can forget it?

00:03:22Hey, Chad and Lori.

00:03:25It's Dateline.

00:03:26How are you?

00:03:27Just heading out today?

00:03:28No.

00:03:29No comment.

00:03:30We began our coverage just over five years ago on the island of Kauai, where in January

00:03:362020, we found Lori and her fifth husband, Chad Daybell.

00:03:41Just the two of them, seemingly on holiday, without a care in the world.

00:03:46Where are your kids?

00:03:47Except?

00:03:48There's a lot of people who are worried about your kids.

00:03:50Yes.

00:03:51Except.

00:03:52Are you guys worried about them?

00:03:53But this was just months after Lori's children, 16-year-old Tylee and 7-year-old JJ, had simply

00:04:00vanished from their home in Idaho.

00:04:02Say hi.

00:04:03Vanished from the face of the earth.

00:04:07And by then, police had learned about other suspicious deaths in Chad and Lori's inner

00:04:11circle.

00:04:12What happened to Tammy, Chad?

00:04:15Chad's wife, Tammy, found dead one autumn morning in Idaho, just a couple of weeks before

00:04:21Chad married Lori.

00:04:23Also, recently dead, Lori's fourth husband, Charles Vallow.

00:04:29Charles had been shot to death by Lori's brother, Alex Cox.

00:04:33You know no weapons?

00:04:34No weapons on me.

00:04:36And then, not far away, in another Phoenix suburb.

00:04:39Where's your emergency?

00:04:40Someone just shot my window.

00:04:42A 911 call from the estranged husband of Lori's niece.

00:04:47It appeared to him someone was trying to kill him.

00:04:50So I was just pulling in.

00:04:52So, well, you get the picture.

00:04:53I'm getting shot at, so I drove straight.

00:04:56And the two people at the center of all these strange goings-on, the missing kids, the dead

00:05:00husband, the dead wife, the driveway shooting, claimed to be leaders of the gathering of

00:05:05the 144,000 chosen people who, according to their own unique reading of the Book of

00:05:10Revelations, would amass in a spot in southeastern Idaho, near the town of Rexburg, to greet

00:05:15the second coming of Christ.

00:05:18Chad Daybell and his new wife, Lori Vallow.

00:05:23In February of 2020, Lori was arrested in Hawaii and flown back to the state where her

00:05:29children had disappeared, Idaho.

00:05:31Welcome back, Lori.

00:05:33Where are your kids?

00:05:35Where again, she refused to give the police any help at all.

00:05:39And then, four months later.

00:05:42Police found what they believed to be human remains.

00:05:45The bodies of the two children, J.J. and Tylee, were found in Chad Daybell's backyard.

00:05:53They were charged with murder, then.

00:05:56And after many delays, guilty, the jury sentenced Chad Daybell to death.

00:06:03And Lori?

00:06:04Guilty.

00:06:05Multiple convictions.

00:06:07Guilty.

00:06:08And a sentence of life in prison in Idaho.

00:06:15We met Lori Vallow six weeks ago at the Estrella Unit of the Maricopa County Jail in Phoenix,

00:06:22where she is soon due to go on trial again, twice.

00:06:26Charged with conspiracy in the attempted murder of her niece's husband.

00:06:31And the murder of her own fourth husband, Charles.

00:06:35Got all that?

00:06:37I'm in trial, coming up, as you know.

00:06:39Do you know that, Keith?

00:06:40Oh, I know that.

00:06:41Are you keeping track?

00:06:42Oh, yeah.

00:06:43I'm keeping track.

00:06:44So, combative is how she was going to be.

00:06:47Practicing, perhaps?

00:06:48She is representing herself in court now.

00:06:51And she made the decision to meet me for an on-camera interview, because she had been

00:06:56telling us she wanted to tell the truth.

00:06:59It's not fun when so many things are not true.

00:07:02Ah, well, we'll get to that, won't we?

00:07:06Oh, yes.

00:07:07We'll get to lots of things.

00:07:09To Jesus in a jail cell.

00:07:11He has a great sense of humor, and he's super, super funny.

00:07:14To tall tales you know just can't be true.

00:07:17You're asking me personally, the only person on the earth who really knows, and you're

00:07:22shaking your head no, like that didn't happen.

00:07:24To the bizarre claim Laurie laid on the son who lived to tell the story.

00:07:29Did you believe any of that stuff?

00:07:31To the investigators who speak out for the first time and reveal how they cornered Laurie

00:07:37and found those missing children.

00:07:39Laurie, no more!

00:07:40To a story that got weird the moment Chad laid eyes on Laurie.

00:07:46I've loved him for eternities.

00:07:48Eternities.

00:07:55Eternities.

00:08:06The question hung in the air during our sometimes strange jailhouse conversation, did for me

00:08:12at least.

00:08:13And I will love him for eternities in the future.

00:08:16Was the meeting that launched all this the result of pure chance, or was it what Laurie

00:08:22Vallow always wanted?

00:08:24She was born into a large Mormon family in Southern California in 1973, and was a charmer

00:08:30from the very start, but was unlucky in love.

00:08:35Three husbands by the age of 28, and a young son named Colby, who as a boy adored his hairdresser

00:08:44mom.

00:08:45I would say my mom is multi-talented.

00:08:47She's always loved to do different things, sing, dance.

00:08:51And oh, Laurie loved the spotlight.

00:08:54Competed on the TV game show Wheel of Fortune.

00:08:57How is the hair in Austin?

00:08:58It's good.

00:08:59Good.

00:09:00Austin's a happy new place.

00:09:01Probably thanks to you.

00:09:02Pretty much.

00:09:04And even in the Mrs. Texas pageant in 2004, during which she offered what now sounds like

00:09:12prophecy.

00:09:13I'm basically a ticking time bomb.

00:09:17But aside from that, she was the neighborhood fun mom.

00:09:22She was always being the one to pick everybody up and sing karaoke at the family party.

00:09:27And she just got everybody excited to have fun.

00:09:30By 2006, she'd had a second child, a girl named Tylee.

00:09:34Divorced Tylee's father and married her fourth husband, Charles Vallow.

00:09:39He was so nice to me.

00:09:40He was so nice to Tylee.

00:09:41He seemed like he genuinely cared about us.

00:09:43And in 2014, Laurie and Charles adopted Charles' great nephew.

00:09:48Big.

00:09:49Little boy named JJ, who was autistic.

00:09:52Hi, JJ.

00:09:53Hi, JJ.

00:09:54Hi, Colby.

00:09:55Hi, Colby.

00:09:56I fell in love with him instantly.

00:09:58You're so cute.

00:09:59I would get up in the middle of the night, run up to the room to see if he was breathing,

00:10:02just stand there and just like, is his chest moving?

00:10:04Yeah.

00:10:05So I loved him so much.

00:10:06What was it about him?

00:10:08He just has such a great spirit.

00:10:10And so it went.

00:10:11My child.

00:10:13Until 2018, when Laurie went to a get-together at her church in Phoenix

00:10:19to hear an end-times speaker named Melanie Gibb.

00:10:23She had a lot of the same energy I did.

00:10:25Enthusiasm for learning and excitement for the Second Coming.

00:10:28Like Laurie, Melanie was drawn to a particular end-times theology

00:10:33that their Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints considered too extreme.

00:10:38And as of that day, they became fast friends.

00:10:42So like a sister kind of a friend that you just meet suddenly and just,

00:10:45like, this girl's a lot like me.

00:10:47So Melanie listened to Laurie's stories about her husband, Charles Vallow, and three kids.

00:10:53By then, Colby was 22, Tylee 16, and JJ was 6.

00:10:59Melanie got the impression that her new friend was struggling.

00:11:04JJ was a lot of work for her.

00:11:07And he was running around, and she was trying to make him happy.

00:11:10And then Tylee did not have a good relationship with her mom.

00:11:14So when Melanie Gibb suggested a road trip to attend a religious conference in St. George, Utah,

00:11:20Laurie didn't need much persuading.

00:11:23I kept getting ideas to write a novel.

00:11:26And once there, Melanie discovered that Chad Daybell, a man she knew was one of the speakers,

00:11:32Chad was an author of end-times-themed fiction,

00:11:35claimed to have had near-death experiences that allowed him to see the spirit world,

00:11:40see the past, the future.

00:11:42Laurie and Melanie went to hear him speak.

00:11:45And after, Laurie met Chad.

00:11:48She was 45 then. He, 50.

00:11:52Do you remember the first meeting with Chad?

00:11:55Absolutely.

00:11:56What was that like?

00:11:58That was amazing.

00:12:00Tell me about it.

00:12:01It was amazing because the veil was once again opened, and we remembered each other.

00:12:10The veil? My, the veil between heaven and earth.

00:12:14And that, said Laurie to Melanie, is how she knew she and Chad had met in past lives.

00:12:21Lots of times.

00:12:22Chad's past lives?

00:12:24How many?

00:12:2531.

00:12:28And Laurie's past lives?

00:12:30How many lives had she supposedly had?

00:12:3221.

00:12:34And just five on this planet. Both of them had five on this planet.

00:12:37Oh, wait a minute.

00:12:38Just on this planet.

00:12:40Where were the other ones?

00:12:42Other earths that were located in the universe.

00:12:45My spirit was standing up, looking down at my body.

00:12:48But now, years after that meeting and all the trouble that followed it,

00:12:53sitting here, talking to me in jail,

00:12:55maybe Laurie would finally recognize a more normal reality?

00:12:59I mean, it's unlike anything earthly.

00:13:01Once you're out of your body, I was like, this is me.

00:13:05No.

00:13:06I recognized him spiritually.

00:13:08He recognized me spiritually, that we had known each other for eternities.

00:13:14Chad, hi.

00:13:16Hello.

00:13:17Soon, Chad appeared on a podcast with Laurie and Melanie.

00:13:21Glad to be on the podcast with you.

00:13:23And then, just three weeks after he met Laurie,

00:13:26Chad traveled from his home in Idaho to Arizona

00:13:29for a religious meeting at Laurie's house.

00:13:32Well, Laurie's husband, Charles, was out of town.

00:13:36Did you see evidence that she and Chad were falling in love?

00:13:40Oh, yeah.

00:13:41I asked her, like, why don't you get a divorce?

00:13:44And she said, well, Chad and I are not allowed to.

00:13:47Laurie's reason?

00:13:49She and Chad, she told Melanie, were exalted, godlike,

00:13:53no divorce for deities.

00:13:56Something we asked Laurie about, or tried to.

00:14:00So, when Chad came along and, you know, said you're a goddess

00:14:04and you've lived for, you know, since the beginning of time,

00:14:07and so is he.

00:14:08Who said that Chad said that?

00:14:09Are you saying that Chad said that?

00:14:11No, I'm saying.

00:14:12Did you hear Chad say that to me?

00:14:13You've heard a lot of stuff, Keith.

00:14:14And I'm here to say you've heard a lot of stuff,

00:14:16but what I tell you will be the truth.

00:14:18Well, will it be?

00:14:20Was it ever?

00:14:21With Chad in the picture, said Melanie Gibb,

00:14:24Laurie began saying some strange and disturbing things

00:14:28about husband Charles.

00:14:30Chad calls and says, I just want to let you know that

00:14:33Charles, something happened to him.

00:14:35His spirit is no longer on this earth.

00:14:39It is in the spirit world.

00:14:41And there was this character named Ned Snyder,

00:14:44and now he was possessing Charles' physical body.

00:14:48So what, he'd become a demon or something?

00:14:50I guess you could call it that.

00:14:52They later phrased it as a zombie,

00:14:54but in the beginning they just said Ned.

00:14:57Poor Charles had no idea about any of this, of course,

00:15:01until, well, apparently until Laurie told him.

00:15:06Because a couple of weeks after that phone call,

00:15:09at the end of January 2019, Charles called the police.

00:15:13I can't get in touch with my kids.

00:15:16After coming home from a trip and finding his truck

00:15:19and his family gone.

00:15:22I don't know where my kids are.

00:15:37She's lost her mind.

00:15:39I would have to say it.

00:15:40We're LDS.

00:15:41She thinks she's a resurrected being and a god.

00:15:45Charles Fellow felt the ground shifting under his feet.

00:15:48His wife, Laurie, had, in his words to local police, lost it.

00:15:53Ever since she'd met this guy at a religious conference

00:15:55named Chad Daybell, Charles said, she was different.

00:15:59She said, you're not Charles.

00:16:00I don't know who you are, what you did with Charles,

00:16:02but I can murder you now.

00:16:04I don't know where my kids are.

00:16:06Charles' anxiety was fully apparent on the body cam video.

00:16:10It's gotten really, really bad.

00:16:11I think she's had a break.

00:16:13I'm going to kill you.

00:16:14You're going to be murdered today or tomorrow.

00:16:16I'm not irrational or stupid or anything.

00:16:19I just want her to give it up.

00:16:21She's my wife.

00:16:22I love her to death.

00:16:23Something's going on.

00:16:25Later, at Charles' request, Laurie submitted to a mental evaluation.

00:16:30Her visit was captured on police body cam too.

00:16:34Laurie told the police that Charles was the problem,

00:16:38said he had cheated on her, and then flew into a rage when she confronted him.

00:16:42Unfortunately, yeah, we've had to leave and go to hotels

00:16:45just so he calms down or something.

00:16:48The cops seemed sympathetic.

00:16:50Just talking to you, I mean,

00:16:52I don't see you being a danger to yourself or anybody else.

00:16:56And that's exactly what the mental evaluation found.

00:17:00I'm going to go check to see if I can go in there.

00:17:02But Charles seemed to know better, and at the end of June 2019,

00:17:05he sent an email to someone you'll hear a lot more about,

00:17:09Tammy Daybell, Chad's wife of nearly 30 years

00:17:13and the mother of his five children.

00:17:15It read, in part,

00:17:17Tammy, my name is Charles Vallow.

00:17:19I have some vital and disturbing information

00:17:21regarding your husband and my wife, Laurie.

00:17:25Well, surely Charles expected some reaction from Tammy.

00:17:29But...

00:17:31Nobody knows who opened that email,

00:17:33but it had been opened and deleted,

00:17:36and Charles Vallow's email had been blocked.

00:17:39Here's Nate Eden of East Idaho News and an NBC News consultant.

00:17:43So it's possible that Tammy Daybell did see the email

00:17:46and think, what is this, this is a weirdo,

00:17:48I'm going to delete it and block him.

00:17:50Or another theory is that Chad Daybell kept an eye on her email,

00:17:53deleted it, and then blocked the email

00:17:56in case Charles tried to contact her again.

00:17:58And so Charles received no answer.

00:18:01He was alone and frightened, perhaps,

00:18:04when he told those officers she was calling him a demon

00:18:07with a strange name.

00:18:09Says I'm Nick Schneider.

00:18:12I've taken over Charles' body.

00:18:14It wasn't Nick, of course, but Ned Schneider.

00:18:18You're being murdered today or tomorrow.

00:18:20But what did it mean?

00:18:22What were Chad and Laurie up to?

00:18:24We asked her, and here's what happened.

00:18:27Are you saying he became Ned Schneider?

00:18:29Well, that's what he told the police,

00:18:31that you told him he was somebody named Ned Schneider.

00:18:33You know when he told that to the police?

00:18:35I have a video of it.

00:18:36Did you hear it?

00:18:37Yes, yes.

00:18:38He's on tape saying that to the police.

00:18:40He was terrified that you were going to kill him.

00:18:42Really, Keith? Is that where you're going to go with this?

00:18:44Well, that's what we're here to talk about.

00:18:47No, Laurie wouldn't talk about Charles as Ned Schneider.

00:18:51But of course she knew we had her text messages to her brother, Alex Cox,

00:18:55referencing Laurie's belief that she could not move through portals

00:18:59to the spirit world while Charles was alive.

00:19:03Apparently it is tied to Ned being gone, hopefully today or tomorrow.

00:19:08Alex responded,

00:19:10have fun and get rid of Ned already.

00:19:13And that, said the police, seemed to be exactly what happened.

00:19:18Because on July 10th, 2019, Alex spent the night at Laurie's place.

00:19:24And the next morning, after Charles showed up at the house...

00:19:27911, where is your emergency?

00:19:29I'm in policing and ambulance.

00:19:31I'm in a fight with my brother-in-law and I shot him in self-defense.

00:19:34Subject has been shot.

00:19:36The police in Chandler, Arizona, were wearing body cams

00:19:40when they responded to the 911 call at Laurie's house.

00:19:43You have no weapons?

00:19:44No weapons on me.

00:19:45All right, come on out this way.

00:19:47And here they encountered Alex in the front yard.

00:19:50He was just yelling at me.

00:19:52Okay.

00:19:53Chandler Police Department, anybody inside, make yourself known!

00:19:56Inside, Charles, age 62, was lying dead on the living room floor.

00:20:04Alex claimed the shooting was in self-defense.

00:20:07Charles is the husband of...

00:20:09And as you can see, he kept touching the back of his head,

00:20:12where he claimed Charles had hit him with a baseball bat.

00:20:16Another tall tale?

00:20:18Investigators have watched the tape frame by frame, of course, since it happened.

00:20:23The lead investigator up in Idaho, Ron Ball, spoke for most.

00:20:28I find it hard to believe that if Charles would have hit Alex in the head with a bat,

00:20:33that Alex would be up walking around with a minor cut on the back of his head.

00:20:37You know, Charles, he played minor league baseball.

00:20:40He knew how to swing a bat.

00:20:42I find it hard to believe.

00:20:44The rest of what happened was also hard to believe.

00:20:48Though Lori was inside the house and certainly heard the gunshots that killed Charles,

00:20:53she promptly left and took JJ to Burger King for breakfast and then dropped him off at school,

00:20:58before returning to find the police at her house,

00:21:01where she behaved not at all like a shocked widow.

00:21:04How long have you lived here?

00:21:05Like three weeks.

00:21:06Oh, jeez. Yeah, okay.

00:21:07That's why the neighbors don't know us.

00:21:09Gotcha.

00:21:10Like, hi, neighbor, sorry.

00:21:12I said, what are you doing?

00:21:14He's not going to hurt my sister.

00:21:15Okay.

00:21:18Alex, Lori, and Tylee were all taken downtown to give statements

00:21:23and largely told the same story, that it was self-defense.

00:21:27No charges were filed.

00:21:29And then, just days later, Lori called the insurance company

00:21:33about Charles' million-dollar life insurance policy.

00:21:37Are you aware of who the primary beneficiary of the policy is?

00:21:40Um, it's me.

00:21:42Um, not exactly.

00:21:45Lori was informed that the beneficiary was, in fact, not her at all.

00:21:50She found out within a few days that she was not getting any of the money

00:21:54because Charles had changed the beneficiary months earlier to his sister

00:21:59when he realized that Lori's mental health was not 100%

00:22:03and he was concerned that something might happen to him.

00:22:06News that Lori had to break to Chad.

00:22:08She texted him, quote,

00:22:11So I talked to the insurance company.

00:22:13He changed it in March.

00:22:15So it was probably Ned before we got rid of him.

00:22:19It's a spear through my heart.

00:22:21There it was.

00:22:23We got rid of him, meaning Charles,

00:22:25and upset that his death by gunshot did not produce an insurance payout.

00:22:30So what would Lori Vallow say about all this?

00:22:34There's certain things that I can't talk about.

00:22:36Oh, because you're in trial.

00:22:38I'm in trial, coming up, as you know.

00:22:41But in the late summer of 2019, Charles Vallow dead and gone,

00:22:46and nobody was keeping track of Lori

00:22:48when she suddenly picked up Tylee and J.J.

00:22:51and they moved to Rexburg, Idaho,

00:22:54so close now to Chad

00:22:57and the unsuspecting Tammy Daybell.

00:23:11I have lots of stories to tell you.

00:23:13Which one is the real Lori?

00:23:15Charles Vallow worried about her sanity.

00:23:18Her trial for the murders of J.J., Tylee, and Tammy

00:23:21was delayed for months while she was treated for religious delusions.

00:23:26Now, in Arizona, she's her own lawyer

00:23:30and is either serious or not about this.

00:23:34Does Jesus visit you often here?

00:23:36Jesus visits all of us.

00:23:38Jesus visits all of us.

00:23:40He's a very good friend of mine.

00:23:42He loves everybody.

00:23:43I'm just his favorite.

00:23:45You're his favorite?

00:23:46No, I'm just teasing.

00:23:47It was a joke.

00:23:48Can I joke with you, Keith?

00:23:49Can we joke?

00:23:50Yes, yes, of course you can.

00:23:51That's my bumper sticker.

00:23:52I said, if I ever had a bumper sticker,

00:23:53it would say, Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite.

00:23:57We were well down the rabbit hole now

00:23:59as she dodged combatively from one distracting diversion to another.

00:24:04Almost like a character in Alice in Wonderland.

00:24:07I am a talker, so.

00:24:08Was this the real Lori, or is she playing a character?

00:24:13A lot, okay?

00:24:14And playing me, too, or trying to.

00:24:16Okay.

00:24:20By early September 2019,

00:24:22two months after the shooting death of Charles Vallow in Phoenix,

00:24:25one thing was obvious.

00:24:27The characters in this drama were settling into their roles.

00:24:32Chad Dabo was the prophet, the leader of the group,

00:24:36and a man one investigator described as an unattractive, unsuccessful author

00:24:41transformed into the keeper of the gates of heaven,

00:24:44foretelling the imminent end of the world

00:24:47and dictating with the wave of his hand,

00:24:50the worthy and the damned.

00:24:52And Lori Vallow?

00:24:54Well, she played a sort of nymph,

00:24:57a divine partner for all time,

00:25:00a heavenly honeypot, if you will.

00:25:04Former FBI supervisory special agent Doug Hart

00:25:07worked the case from the start

00:25:09and knows as much about Chad and Lori as just about anyone.

00:25:13There's kind of a mutual manipulation that these two had going, right?

00:25:17Unquestionably, yes.

00:25:18It is absolutely a two-way street.

00:25:21Lori used sex to manipulate Chad,

00:25:23and Chad used his visionary status to manipulate Lori.

00:25:30But moths and flames can't forever exist 900 miles apart.

00:25:35So, seven weeks after Charles' death,

00:25:38Lori packed up her kids, J.J. and Tylee,

00:25:41and moved them to Rexburg, Idaho,

00:25:43or as she called it, Zion,

00:25:46to an apartment about ten minutes from the rural property

00:25:49where Chad happened to live with his wife, Tammy.

00:25:53And we should add there was another migrant to Zion,

00:25:57Lori's brother, Alex Cox.

00:26:00His character has been described as Lori's angel of death.

00:26:06He was one who was willing to do anything for his sister

00:26:11and ultimately anything for Chad.

00:26:14Such a supposedly funny, mild-mannered man,

00:26:17according to people who had met him in other contexts,

00:26:20and yet there he was.

00:26:22But clearly also an absolutely cold-blooded killer.

00:26:27Here in our jailhouse chat, we did get one confirmation at least,

00:26:31the obvious one that, yes, they had moved to Idaho

00:26:34because Chad was there, and, well,

00:26:36that was where the righteous would gather before the end times.

00:26:40But something else had happened, too.

00:26:42Revealed by text messages and a friend's eyewitness account,

00:26:47Chad had declared that Lori's daughter, Tylee, had turned dark.

00:26:52And dark in those days seemed to have a way of foreshadowing death.

00:26:58But as she told her story,

00:27:00Lori fixed on a theme she pursued throughout our talk.

00:27:03Tylee, she said, was sick and in pain

00:27:06due to what she called persistent pancreatitis.

00:27:10She drove up to Idaho and followed me up there.

00:27:13She had to stay in bed for days, right?

00:27:16But just a week after they arrived, on Tuesday, September 8th,

00:27:20the family, Lori, Tylee, J.J., and Alex,

00:27:24went to Yellowstone National Park,

00:27:26about a 90-minute drive from Rexburg.

00:27:29We were going to go see Old Faithful, and she wanted to go.

00:27:33So she got up out of bed.

00:27:35J.J. was running around, and she was smiling,

00:27:37and you have seen the pictures, right?

00:27:40These are the last images ever taken of Tylee.

00:27:45As for little J.J., less than a week later, on September 14th,

00:27:50Lori and J.J. went on an outing to a wildlife park called Bear World.

00:27:57And a few days after that, Lori's friend, Melanie Gibb,

00:28:00went to Idaho, where Lori had some shocking news.

00:28:04J.J. had just become a zombie.

00:28:09The reason why I believe he became a zombie

00:28:11is that he was going to stop Chad and Lori from going forward.

00:28:15They didn't want anybody to stop them from being together, basically,

00:28:18and I think he was in the way.

00:28:21September 22nd, the very last photo of J.J.,

00:28:25ready for bed, in his red pajamas.

00:28:28That night, according to Lori's visitors, J.J. was acting up.

00:28:33Melanie Gibb's husband, David Warwick, saw Alex take J.J. outside.

00:28:39A couple hours later, Alex brings back J.J.,

00:28:42and he walked in, he had J.J. on, it was asleep on him,

00:28:46and he carried him up to bed.

00:28:48By morning, J.J. was gone and never seen again.

00:28:53And just one week later...

00:28:56There is some crazy stuff that happened,

00:28:58and I would hope that has nothing to do with this.

00:29:00It wasn't over yet.

00:29:16One thing everyone who's met Lori Vallow knows,

00:29:19the woman loves attention,

00:29:21and she is certainly getting it from all over the world.

00:29:25I hear stuff from my family that's like,

00:29:27oh, somebody does a blog about you every day or something.

00:29:30I'm like, how could they do a blog every day?

00:29:32It's been like five years.

00:29:34It's mind-blowing. It's mind-blowing.

00:29:36A lot happened.

00:29:38Tragedies. Tragedies in my life.

00:29:41So the media loves to take tragedies and turn them into crimes,

00:29:45turn them into horrible things,

00:29:47and I had a lot of tragedies in a row, like a domino effect.

00:29:52Tragic dominoes?

00:29:54Maybe, as investigators could see as they collected evidence,

00:29:57something far more intentional.

00:30:02Just three weeks after Tylee was last seen alive,

00:30:05and a week after J.J.'s disappearance,

00:30:08a frightened man called 911 in the Phoenix suburb of Gilbert, Arizona.

00:30:13Someone just shot my window.

00:30:15I was pouring in my house.

00:30:17The voice on the line belonged to this man,

00:30:19Brandon Boudreaux.

00:30:21At the time, he was going through a nasty custody fight with his wife,

00:30:25Melanie Boudreaux,

00:30:27the niece of Lori Vallow and her brother, Alex Cox.

00:30:31The police arrived quickly,

00:30:33captured the scene on body cam,

00:30:35and released this blurred video.

00:30:38Yeah, so I was just pouring in.

00:30:40I noticed a green Jeep Wrangler.

00:30:43They lifted their, like, back window.

00:30:45Brandon told the officers that the Jeep's back window opened.

00:30:48They hunkered down where the Jeep's back seat should have been,

00:30:51stuck out a rifle where the missing spare tire should have been,

00:30:55and a bullet whizzed by Brandon's ear shattered the window of his car.

00:30:59Okay, so they shot. Then what happened?

00:31:02It hit my window, and it started turning in.

00:31:04It scared me really bad.

00:31:05And then, he said, the shooter took off.

00:31:08I noticed the green.

00:31:09The Jeep was green or gray, said Brandon later,

00:31:12and had Texas plates.

00:31:14And what do you know?

00:31:16It didn't take long for police to identify it.

00:31:18The Jeep belonged to Tylee.

00:31:21Her now-deceased stepfather, Charles Vallow, bought it for her.

00:31:25And the guy driving the Jeep?

00:31:27Later, Brandon told the police it looked like Lori's brother.

00:31:31Remember, Alex had already killed his sister's husband, Charles,

00:31:35so was he trying to shoot his niece's estranged husband, too?

00:31:39There is some crazy stuff that happened,

00:31:41and I would hope that has nothing to do with this.

00:31:43A lot of crazy in Brandon's life.

00:31:45His wife had run off to join Lori and Chad and Alex up in Rexburg

00:31:50before launching a custody battle for the couple's four children.

00:31:54And as text messages have since revealed,

00:31:56Brandon was very much out of favor with Chad and Lori,

00:31:59who were condemning him as a gadianton, a criminal in Mormon lore.

00:32:04And then, weeks after a quick divorce,

00:32:07Melanie married a guy she had just met, named Ian.

00:32:12So what would Melanie and her new partner, Ian,

00:32:14tell us about the attempt on Brandon's life?

00:32:17They sat with us in the spring of 2020.

00:32:20Did you ask Alex if he tried to shoot Brandon?

00:32:25I did.

00:32:26And he made some jokes about it,

00:32:28and then we both talked about how insane that would be for him

00:32:32across the street with a rifle in broad daylight in a recognizable car.

00:32:36He denied it many times.

00:32:38That was hardly a surprise,

00:32:40but investigators thought this might be a pertinent point about Brandon

00:32:44and the attempt on his life.

00:32:46Charles' death hadn't paid off in insurance money

00:32:49the way it appeared Chad and Lori hoped it would,

00:32:52which probably meant they needed cash.

00:32:55And Brandon?

00:32:57There was the belief among them that he had a big life insurance policy.

00:33:01He made good money, he had a good job,

00:33:03so they knew that he had access to money.

00:33:07And then there was also this fascinating piece of evidence.

00:33:10On the day of the shooting, here was Lori, on surveillance video,

00:33:14at her rented storage unit,

00:33:17joined by the still very married Chad Daybell.

00:33:20Here, police watched them bring in a tire,

00:33:23just like the one that was missing from Tylee's Jeep when Brandon was shot at.

00:33:28And then they lugged in a folded back seat,

00:33:30which would have created space in the back of the Jeep for a shooter.

00:33:35On the way out, Chad gave Lori a hand in a more intimate sort of way.

00:33:41And then the day after the shooting,

00:33:43Alex showed up at the same storage unit in Idaho,

00:33:46and as you can see, he carried out the tire Chad had put in the day before,

00:33:51and then also carried out the folded back seat.

00:33:55And meanwhile, two days after the attempt on Brandon's life,

00:33:59as then-FBI agent Doug Hart learned when he combed through text messages,

00:34:03Lori was getting antsy.

00:34:05She and Chad had planned a real date, but had to cancel, because...

00:34:10I mean, you've been to Rexburg, it's a small town,

00:34:14and Chad's, you know, the chances of him being spotted

00:34:18while on a real date with Lori are pretty significant.

00:34:22Tammy wouldn't like that.

00:34:25Then, the very next day...

00:34:28Chad sends a message to Lori,

00:34:31Big news about Tammy.

00:34:33Tammy's been possessed by this entity, Viola.

00:34:38I don't know the timing for, quote, removal,

00:34:42but once it's been affirmed, I don't want to wait.

00:34:46Something would have to be done.

00:34:48Oh, and it would be.

00:35:02Everyone has a time when they live,

00:35:05and everyone has a time when they're going to go back to home, to heaven.

00:35:09So it's kind of the idea of, like, you go off to college,

00:35:12learn a bunch of things, have experiences, that's what life is,

00:35:15and then you go home.

00:35:17As Lori sat and explained, it all seemed so benign,

00:35:22as if she were in a temple wearing robes

00:35:25instead of bright orange and blue handcuffs in a high-security jail.

00:35:30You'd almost forget what she was here for.

00:35:33Things like this.

00:35:35This is Fremont County Sheriff's Office.

00:35:38Hi, I need to report something.

00:35:40On October 9, 2019,

00:35:43one week after police suspected Lori's brother, Alex Cox,

00:35:46tried to kill her nephew in suburban Phoenix.

00:35:50Um, someone just shot my window.

00:35:52And three months after Alex did kill Lori's husband, Charles.

00:35:56I got in a fight with my brother-in-law, and I shot him in self-defense.

00:36:00A 911 call came in to an Idaho sheriff's office.

00:36:08Tammy Daybell,

00:36:10calling on a cold autumn night to report that when she returned

00:36:13late that evening from a church event,

00:36:15a man with a gun confronted her outside the home she shared with Chad Daybell.

00:36:27I pulled up into our driveway, and he,

00:36:31I didn't step out of the backseat of my car,

00:36:33and suddenly he was there, and he had a paintball gun,

00:36:36and he was going to shoot at me.

00:36:39So I yelled for my husband, and then he took off running around the back of my house.

00:36:43Who was that masked man?

00:36:45The FBI ran a cell phone geolocation search,

00:36:48which revealed that Alex was near,

00:36:51and then his phone was shut off just at the time of the attempted shooting.

00:36:56I had a rifle and some shooting at me,

00:36:59but nothing came out of the gun either.

00:37:02It was months later when Detective Ball sifted through Alex's digital trail

00:37:07and concluded that what Tammy Daybell thought was a paintball gun

00:37:11was not that at all.

00:37:13That paintball gun incident, what was that really in your mind?

00:37:16I think that was an attempted assassination of Tammy

00:37:19that was planned out by Lori, Chad, and Alex.

00:37:23And after the failed attempt, said investigators,

00:37:26Alex went on an Internet search for AR-15 cold weather operation.

00:37:32So was it the cold weather that saved Tammy Daybell that time?

00:37:36Maybe.

00:37:38Added to this, Tammy didn't park in her usual spot.

00:37:43And so when Tammy Daybell pulled in the driveway she normally didn't park in,

00:37:47it likely threw Alex off.

00:37:49He had to run further than he would have,

00:37:51and it could have shaken that gun, thus the gun misfired, or didn't fire at all.

00:37:56And she may have heard a pop, like some sort of semi-pop,

00:37:59and thought it was paintball.

00:38:01Exactly.

00:38:02So, plan A having failed, apparently it was time for plan B.

00:38:08Ten days later.

00:38:10911, what is your emergency?

00:38:12We just found my mom. She's on the ground, frozen, or she's dead.

00:38:18I'm Chad, the husband.

00:38:22Um, she's clearly dead.

00:38:26I'm so sorry.

00:38:28Chad and his son called to report that Tammy had died in her sleep.

00:38:33Okay, Chad, I'm going to get somebody up to you right now.

00:38:36Okay.

00:38:37Later that morning, Chad notified Tammy's sister, Sam.

00:38:41I got a phone call from Chad,

00:38:44telling me that she had passed away in her sleep.

00:38:47How do you process something like that?

00:38:49You don't.

00:38:51Because I had just seen her, and it just didn't feel...

00:38:55She was fine.

00:38:56It didn't feel real. It didn't feel right.

00:38:59What did Chad say happened?

00:39:01That, um, that she'd been sick and had a coughing fit and passed away.

00:39:07That was a really hard moment.

00:39:11Tammy was buried without delay in her hometown in Utah.

00:39:15There was no autopsy.

00:39:17Chad's choice, the sheriff said, because back then it just didn't seem suspicious.

00:39:23It was later when the story began to emerge that they exhumed Tammy's body,

00:39:28and the ME found bruises on her arms as if she were held down,

00:39:33and the cause of death was asphyxiation,

00:39:37just what lead investigator Ball suspected.

00:39:41I don't think I'll ever forget that moment

00:39:43when he said, I have the results of Tammy's autopsy.

00:39:48They were ruling it a homicide.

00:39:50And, you know, we all knew it.

00:39:54And when looking for suspects, once again, detectives did not have to look far.

00:40:00When Tammy did die, did the evidence show that Alex was there?

00:40:04No. Close by.

00:40:06It's my belief that Chad went and picked him up and brought him back to the house,

00:40:11and that the two of them did that together,

00:40:13and then Chad took him back to where his car was parked.

00:40:15But that was a two-person crime?

00:40:18I don't see how you could do it otherwise.

00:40:21Later, at Chad's trial,

00:40:23experts testified it would have been difficult for one person to complete the task,

00:40:28that is, difficult for Alex, without Chad's help.

00:40:33But sitting here with me, Laurie simply dismissed all that.

00:40:38No foul play at all, she said.

00:40:41Perfectly innocent.

00:40:43Tammy died of natural causes.

00:40:45Tammy knows the truth. I love her, and she loves me.

00:40:48We've been friends for eternities.

00:40:51Yes, and nowadays?

00:40:53Tammy comes to visit her in jail, said Laurie.

00:40:57Anyway, the funerals weren't over.

00:41:00Another one coming soon.

00:41:02I remember a sense of relief.

00:41:06Like, okay, the guy who was in charge of this stuff is gone.

00:41:11But first, it was time for a wedding.

00:41:29You're going to have to break these questions down, Keith,

00:41:31and I'm going to have to answer them one at a time.

00:41:34Because I thought we were going to be friends.

00:41:36Well, I think we are, aren't we?

00:41:39I'm friends with everybody. I love everybody.

00:41:42I'm all about the love.

00:41:44We had raised the subject of love in our conversation with convicted killer Laurie Vallow.

00:41:50Because, well, people do lie about love and death and what happened when.

00:41:58But what's the title of that old song?

00:42:02So, facts are what we spoke of now.

00:42:06Our questions took us back to November 5th, 2019,

00:42:11exactly 17 days after Chad Daybell's wife Tammy was murdered in her own bed.

00:42:17There was a wedding.

00:42:203,000 miles away from Idaho, on the island of Kauai.

00:42:25The happy couple?

00:42:27Who else? Chad and Laurie, now Daybell.

00:42:32What was the relationship with Chad all about, anyway?

00:42:35My husband?

00:42:36Yeah.

00:42:37My husband that I've been married to for five years?

00:42:39Sure. And everybody calls you Laurie Vallow. Does that bother you?

00:42:43It doesn't bother me, but I'm Laurie Daybell.

00:42:46It was often difficult to keep Laurie on point.

00:42:49But on this subject, the wedding and preparations for it, she seemed willing to talk specifics.

00:42:56We had to ask because, again, facts.

00:42:59The evidence clearly shows that Laurie searched for wedding dresses and rings

00:43:04and then bought a malachite gemstone ring on October 2nd, 2019.

00:43:10The ring was delivered to her five days later, October 7th.

00:43:15But there was a hitch.

00:43:17At the time, Chad's wife Tammy was as alive as a person can be

00:43:21and quite unaware of the fate that awaited her.

00:43:25She was murdered on October 19th, two weeks after Laurie's wedding ring was delivered.

00:43:33In journalistic terms, this would be called a gotcha.

00:43:37And you bought the wedding rings before?

00:43:39That is an untrue statement. You don't know what you're talking about on that one.

00:43:42It's online. The purchase is there.

00:43:45And then we see the video of those very rings on your fingers in that ceremony on the beach.

00:43:49Those rings were not initially bought for us.

00:43:51So get your facts straight, Keith, before you start making accusations.

00:43:56See, you don't know. You don't have any idea because you've heard all these rumors.

00:44:01You're going to tell me who they were bought for.

00:44:03Rumor has it.

00:44:04Who were they bought for, if not you?

00:44:06Alex and Zulema, initially.

00:44:09That's Laurie's brother, Alex Cox, and the woman he would later marry, Zulema Pastinas.

00:44:16Laurie's version?

00:44:18After buying the rings and dress for Zulema, Laurie and Chad borrowed them.

00:44:24We used them in our ceremony, and then they were given back to Alex.

00:44:28The problem with that story?

00:44:30Well, investigators have many.

00:44:33First, former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Doug Hart,

00:44:37who examined tens of thousands of items from Laurie's electronic devices.

00:44:42We certainly don't see any communications between Laurie and Zulema,

00:44:47which we would have seen, saying,

00:44:49hey, I'm shopping for a dress for you, or I found this wonderful wedding ring for you.

00:44:54So that is conspicuously absent.

00:44:57Former lead detective Ron Ball.

00:44:59Come on. It's Laurie trying to direct the details the way she wants them directed.

00:45:06Those rings were for her and Chad.

00:45:08So anyway, Chad and Laurie, happy honeymooners after their island wedding,

00:45:13and also formed with $30,000 richer thanks to life insurance policies that paid upon Tammy's death,

00:45:19returned to Laurie's apartment in Rexburg, Idaho,

00:45:22where, as it just so happened, police detective Ray Hermosillo

00:45:26had just received a call from Gilbert, Arizona.

00:45:30Detectives there were investigating an attempted murder.

00:45:33Okay, so they shot, then what happened?

00:45:36It hit my window.

00:45:37Remember?

00:45:38That shot was fired from a Jeep at Brandon Boudreau, the estranged husband of Laurie's niece.

00:45:44And the Jeep, detectives discovered, was registered to Charles Vallow,

00:45:48whose widow, Laurie, records revealed, had moved from Arizona to Rexburg.

00:45:54So what did they want you to do?

00:45:56They wanted me to do some intermittent surveillance, kind of watch the place.

00:46:02The place was Laurie's apartment complex,

00:46:05where she and Chad and Alex and Laurie's niece Melanie,

00:46:09a.k.a. Brandon's estranged wife, had all set up shop.

00:46:13While keeping watch, Detective Hermosillo read in on Alex Cox,

00:46:18who was suspected of trying to kill Brandon,

00:46:20and who, a few months earlier, did kill Laurie's fourth husband, Charles Vallow.

00:46:26So what are you thinking about him at this point?

00:46:29He's kind of a dangerous dude, right?

00:46:32At the same time, Hermosillo and his lieutenant, Ron Ball,

00:46:36started hearing even more chatter about Chad and Laurie.

00:46:41Like how Chad's first wife, Tammy, had suddenly died just a few weeks before.

00:46:47The common denominator in this whole thing is Laurie.

00:46:50And it was at this point, when police from Arizona traveled to Idaho to seize that Jeep,

00:46:56that investigators started to focus on the question,

00:47:00where are the children?

00:47:02They asked about J.J.

00:47:06J.J., as in J.J. Vallow, Laurie's 7-year-old autistic adopted son,

00:47:12who, along with his sister, Tylee, at this point had not been seen for weeks.

00:47:18What did they want to know about him?

00:47:20They just asked through our surveillance if we had seen a little boy outside,

00:47:24playing outside the residence, and we told them we hadn't.

00:47:27We said, okay, well, his grandma hasn't seen him for a while,

00:47:31and I may need your assistance to go knock on Laurie's door and see if J.J.'s with Laurie.

00:47:37So on November 26, 2019, the detective did just that.

00:47:43But at Laurie's front door, there was no answer.

00:47:47We went around the back, and that's where I finally met Alex and Chad for the first time.

00:47:53What were they doing, just hanging outside the back door?

00:47:55They were unloading a pickup truck.

00:47:57I asked Alex where J.J. was at.

00:47:59You know, he kind of looked over at Chad.

00:48:01Chad looked back at Alex, and then he said, I think he's with his grandma in Louisiana.

00:48:07The detective felt a weird vibe from Alex.

00:48:11What was he like?

00:48:12Nervous, especially when I told him that that was unlikely

00:48:16because Grandma in Louisiana was the one that called in the welfare check.

00:48:21He gave me that thousand-yard stare, and based on his reaction,

00:48:25I knew there was probably something more going on.

00:48:28Something more, all right.

00:48:31The detective asked for Laurie's phone number.

00:48:34Alex said he didn't have it.

00:48:36Come on.

00:48:38Yeah.

00:48:40So did Chad have Laurie's number?

00:48:42He said he didn't know Laurie's number.

00:48:44He was married to her, but he didn't know her number.

00:48:46He didn't know that I knew he was married to her, right?

00:48:50No, of course not, yeah.

00:48:52I asked him again for her phone number, and he finally gave it to me.

00:48:55But at that point, I knew something was up for sure.

00:48:59Perhaps few detectives in the history of law enforcement have ever been more right.

00:49:05Something was up indeed.

00:49:08The looming collapse of Chad and Laurie's house of cards.

00:49:21I'm here to tell you the truth, and you don't even want to hear it.

00:49:25Of course I want to hear it.

00:49:27I don't think you do.

00:49:29But I want to hear the truth about all kinds of things.

00:49:31Time and again during our interview,

00:49:33Laurie assured us that while others lie about her,

00:49:36she was telling us the absolute truth.

00:49:39I'm trying to give you the truth, and you really don't want to hear it.

00:49:43So you want the truth that you already know.

00:49:46I'm the person to happen with.

00:49:48I'm the only one who knows the truth, and I'm trying to give it.

00:49:52But if you don't want to hear it, I will be happy to be quiet.

00:49:55Of course, it would have been easier to believe that

00:49:58were it not for all the lies she has told before.

00:50:02Like, well, for example, this body cam video of very poor quality

00:50:07showing then-Detective Ron Ball and a colleague

00:50:10approaching Laurie's apartment.

00:50:13This was just minutes after Detective Hermosillo

00:50:15had that strange encounter with Alex and Chad in the alley.

00:50:18Laurie, I'm Lieutenant Ball from the Police Department.

00:50:20How are you? You got a minute?

00:50:22This time, Laurie answered the door and, as if she had a choice,

00:50:26welcomed detectives inside. Sort of.

00:50:30This is a big mess.

00:50:32From the start, Laurie lied like a sidewalk.

00:50:35When faced with questions about her seven-year-old adoptive daughter,

00:50:39JJ was not, of course, with a friend.

00:50:42More on that in a minute.

00:50:44But as detectives asked more questions,

00:50:46Laurie acted as if she had no clue

00:50:49what could possibly be attracting so much attention from law enforcement.

00:50:53Why is all this?

00:50:55We're looking for evidence.

00:50:57We're looking for evidence.

00:50:59We're looking for evidence.

00:51:01We're looking for evidence.

00:51:03We're looking for evidence.

00:51:05Why is all this?

00:51:07We're a little concerned.

00:51:09Why?

00:51:10Well, the officers who were here earlier were checky,

00:51:14and they got upset by, like, something was going on here

00:51:18because nobody knew anything about a child.

00:51:22They weren't talking.

00:51:24It's because a lot of stuff has gone on.

00:51:27If you're on, no, it's a lot of stuff.

00:51:30Well, that's why we're concerned, because it just was kind of weird.

00:51:34It is very weird.

00:51:35I've had to move around a lot.

00:51:37One of my brothers is trying to kill me.

00:51:39Kill her for life insurance money, she said.

00:51:41Wasn't true, of course.

00:51:43Projection, perhaps?

00:51:45Laurie herself, remember, tried to claim Charles' life insurance

00:51:49after Alex killed him.

00:51:51She went on, then, about why things appeared a bit dodgy.

00:51:55So I don't tell people the truth about where we are and what we're doing

00:51:59because of those reasons.

00:52:01So I look like a suspect, but I'm a good person.

00:52:04Then Detective Ball got the idea to ask her about those two guys in the alley.

00:52:09Who were they, anyway?

00:52:11My brother and his friend, probably.

00:52:13He's been with me.

00:52:15Laurie's brother, Alex, and a friend, Chad Daybell.

00:52:21At this point, we knew that they were married.

00:52:23She didn't want to get in too much of a conversation about Chad

00:52:26for obvious reasons at this point.

00:52:29Before long, the detectives left.

00:52:32Okay, get out of here.

00:52:34And as soon as they did, Chad and Laurie got busy.

00:52:36Calls were made to Melanie Gibb in Arizona, for one.

00:52:42The friend Laurie had just told police J.J. was staying with.

00:52:46I get this phone call out of the blue, and Chad said,

00:52:49Hey, Melanie, I just want to let you know that the Rexburg police are going to call.

00:52:53Don't pick up.

00:52:54How did he seem? Calm?

00:52:56No. No. Nervous.

00:52:59As her head spun, there was a second call.

00:53:03Laurie calls and says, Hey, everything's fine.

00:53:06Oh, I told them that J.J. was with you.

00:53:08It's like a bomb drops on you. What do you do?

00:53:10You just are in shock a little bit.

00:53:12Was that the moment this all changed for you?

00:53:14The bottom fell out?

00:53:15Oh, absolutely.

00:53:17I can't even begin to tell you how horrible that moment was for me.

00:53:20Were you betrayed by these people?

00:53:22Oh, yeah. They tried to use me as their way of escape.

00:53:26Melanie quickly got her head on straight, and when police called to verify Laurie's story?

00:53:31She said that she had J.J. at one point, but he was back in Idaho with Laurie.

00:53:37Right. At that point, did you think something bad had happened to J.J.?

00:53:41Not at that point. I knew something was up.

00:53:44At that point, we were bound and determined to find J.J.

00:53:48And the next morning, when police showed up again at Laurie's apartment to execute a search warrant?

00:53:54We went over there, and everybody was gone.

00:53:57There wasn't a soul in that place.

00:53:59There was furniture, food in the pantry, food in the fridge.

00:54:04It looked like they just pretty much walked out.

00:54:08You must certainly have hit a nerve with your questions. They just disappear afterwards.

00:54:13And I think that those questions that were there asking about the kids, absolutely.

00:54:18It triggered them to flee response, and they know that we're hot after them.

00:54:23What started as surveillance on a Jeep had certainly taken a turn.

00:54:29The chase was on.

00:54:43I never spank my children. I don't yell at my children.

00:54:46I only use love and logic with my children.

00:54:49I want to build them up. I want to help them because of what I learned in heaven.

00:54:55As Laurie Vallow continued to explain the finer points of parenting,

00:55:00it was not lost on us that more than five years ago, she had gone on the run.

00:55:05When detectives asked her one simple question to which every parent of a seven-year-old child should have an answer,

00:55:11where's your child?

00:55:14Where was J.J.?

00:55:16For that matter, where was his sister, 16-year-old Tylee?

00:55:21When Laurie and Chad Daybell disappeared from their apartment in Rexburg, Idaho that day in November 2019 and returned to Hawaii,

00:55:30did they understand how quickly the law would catch up to them?

00:55:34They couldn't have known, really, that within 24 hours, the FBI had been called in.

00:55:40The investigators would soon contact her son, Colby.

00:55:44I called her because I was freaking out and I said,

00:55:47the two detectives are looking for Tylee and J.J. What is going on?

00:55:50She said, I got it. I'll take care of it. I love you. Have a great day, something like that.

00:55:55Detectives in Idaho entered J.J.'s name into a database of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

00:56:02Through our investigation up to that point, we learned nobody had seen Tylee either.

00:56:06So we also added Tylee to the missing persons report.

00:56:11And when they asked that great detective, the public, for help.

00:56:16Tonight, two Arizona kids are missing after vanishing without a trace.

00:56:20After going public, we started receiving tips on where Chad and Laurie could be.

00:56:27And some of those tips came from Hawaii.

00:56:31Oh, enough to make you think that's where they are?

00:56:34We were able to confirm that through cell phone data.

00:56:38From Laurie and Chad, yeah.

00:56:40But were the children with them? Were they being kept somewhere else?

00:56:45Detective Ray Hermosillo didn't know what to think.

00:56:48You kind of wondered in the back of your head, are these kids OK?

00:56:52Are they stored in a bunker somewhere for crazy religious beliefs?

00:56:58And then, in the middle of all those questions, a brand new shock.

00:57:03OK, what is the emergency?

00:57:05Something happened to Laurie's brother, Alex Cox, her angel of death.

00:57:10Something bad. He'd collapsed in an apartment in Gilbert, Arizona.

00:57:16Alex was rushed to a hospital, but it was no good.

00:57:20Later, police interviewed the woman Alex had married just two weeks before, Zulema Pastinas.

00:57:27I remember them taking us to the hospital.

00:57:30And I don't remember much of what happened between that

00:57:35and until the time that they brought me back to the room for me to turn off the machines.

00:57:43Then I remember somebody came saying that I couldn't touch him anymore,

00:57:49that he was considered a crime scene, and that I needed to leave.

00:57:54It will surprise no one there was considerable suspicion early on of foul play.

00:58:00I remember a sense of relief.

00:58:03Like, OK, the guy who was in charge of this stuff is gone.

00:58:08But then it was immediate with, now we have another body.

00:58:12It was so overwhelming, Keith. We didn't know what to think.

00:58:17And here is the designated killer, apparently killed, or at least dead.

00:58:22You didn't know why at that point, right?

00:58:24Didn't know why at that point.

00:58:26But when the autopsy was done, the ME concluded that the death of Alex Cox was no crime at all.

00:58:34Alex Cox had been killed by blood clots in his lungs.

00:58:39He was 51 years old.

00:58:42I would have liked to have been able to arrest him and charge him for the crimes he committed.

00:58:47I think he got out of this world too easy.

00:58:51Meanwhile, detectives and special agents decided enough was enough.

00:58:56They'd patiently worked the case for eight weeks.

00:58:59It was time to confront Lori and Chad in Hawaii.

00:59:03And it didn't take long for law enforcement to find them.

00:59:07Here they were, sitting by their hotel pool on a warm, sunny day in January 2020.

00:59:14Good to talk to you again, sir.

00:59:16What they gave her was a court order demanding she produce J.J. and Tylee within five days.

00:59:23The next day, the police pulled them over, searched their car, seized their car,

00:59:29and thus forced them to walk a gauntlet of reporters back to their hotel.

00:59:35Reporters, including our NBC News consultant, Nate Eaton.

00:59:39Did you do something to your children?

00:59:42Are your children still alive?

00:59:45Are you guys innocent of any crimes? Have you committed any crimes?

00:59:49But four weeks later, Lori still hadn't produced the children,

00:59:53and so she was arrested and flown back to Idaho.

00:59:58Welcome back, Lori. Where are your kids?

01:00:02All rise.

01:00:03Her first court appearance filled the room, the hallways, the streets outside

01:00:08with the curious citizens of Rexburg.

01:00:12But she still wouldn't answer the question, where are those kids?

01:00:18I remember walking out of the court at that time and talking to some guys.

01:00:21I'm like, these kids, they're not alive. We're now looking for bodies.

01:00:26Indeed, they were.

01:00:28Hundreds of agents and officers had been working the case in multiple states for months,

01:00:34combing through every electronic device ever attached to Lori, Chad, Alex, and the others.

01:00:41It had to be done manually.

01:00:44And in the end, the search for the children would come down to one unlikely text message

01:00:51containing one odd word.

01:00:55You can't do a keyword search, and if we did a keyword search,

01:00:59raccoon certainly wouldn't have been a keyword that we were looking for.

01:01:12Tylee is very smart, very sassy, she knows how to push her buttons, she knows what to say.

01:01:22I was able to be very peaceful with Tylee.

01:01:25I was able to be patient with Tylee because I watched her suffer so much.

01:01:30And I knew she was not going to live forever.

01:01:35Because you know that you can die of pancreatitis any time you have it.

01:01:38Of course, yes.

01:01:39As I listened patiently to Lori Vallow's long and winding discourse about her daughter Tylee,

01:01:45my mind kept going to those strange days in the spring of 2020

01:01:50when details emerged about the search for Tylee and JJ.

01:01:55Over the previous six months, thousands of man hours had gone into the investigation,

01:02:00searches of Google, Amazon, Facebook accounts, phone calls, text messages, geolocations

01:02:07for Lori, Chad, and Alex.

01:02:09Just to give you an idea, one of the phones had 54,000 text messages in it.

01:02:15Wow.

01:02:16So it's days and weeks and months of just hard, detailed, investigative work.

01:02:25And all that work painted a picture, confirming the September 8, 2019 trip to Yellowstone

01:02:32and revealing that Tylee must have been killed when they returned home that very night.

01:02:38We have geolocation that Alex was in Lori's residence the night we believe Tylee was killed.

01:02:47Early morning hours.

01:02:49And then a sharp-eyed FBI analyst found the text that broke the case.

01:02:53It was sent later that same morning, 10.53 a.m., from Chad to his wife Tammy.

01:03:01Well, I've had an interesting morning.

01:03:03I thought I should burn all of the limb debris by the fire pit before it got too soaked by the coming storms.

01:03:10Well, I did so.

01:03:11I spotted a big raccoon along the fence.

01:03:14I hurried and got my gun.

01:03:16And he was still walking along.

01:03:18I got close enough that one shot did the trick.

01:03:22He is now in our pet cemetery.

01:03:24Fun times.

01:03:26End quote.

01:03:27What that text message did for us is that it represented a communication from Chad Daybell to his wife Tammy

01:03:38to explain why he was burning and digging on the property on that date.

01:03:44When, in fact, investigators felt sure, they'd been burning and burying Tylee.

01:03:51And ultimately, we're able to piece all of these critical things together into an affidavit

01:03:58and seek a search warrant for the property.

01:04:03The date was June 9, 2020, nine months since the kids disappeared.

01:04:10Ron Ball, Ray Hermosillo, and their teams drove out to Chad's property, a nearly four-acre lot a few miles from Rexburg.

01:04:18They woke up Chad and served him with a search warrant.

01:04:21And I said, you know what?

01:04:23We're going to see if these kids are here.

01:04:26Based on his expression when he's sitting there reading that search warrant,

01:04:30there's going to be some type of change of behavior.

01:04:33Was there?

01:04:34No.

01:04:36And I just remember looking at Ron like, are we in the wrong spot again?

01:04:41The detective may have felt differently if he'd heard the tension in Chad's voice

01:04:46when Lori called him from jail that same morning.

01:05:02Chad was right to be worried.

01:05:05The FBI's evidence response team zeroed in on two places where Alex's cell phone spent time

01:05:11hours after Tylee and JJ disappeared.

01:05:15Under a tree, searchers soon found ground that had clearly been disturbed.

01:05:21There was about maybe a four-by-two section that didn't fit.

01:05:25Evidence techs removed a layer of white rocks.

01:05:29There were some boards underneath the white rocks.

01:05:33And as soon as those boards were removed, you could see the difference in soil.

01:05:38And you could see a round piece of plastic.

01:05:42And then they cut into that black plastic, and then you could see brown human hair.

01:05:48That whole experience had to be just, I mean, that lives with you even now, doesn't it?

01:05:53Absolutely.

01:05:56It was, of course, the body of seven-year-old JJ Vallow,

01:06:00still dressed in the red pajamas he was last seen in,

01:06:04a plastic bag over his head, duct tape over his mouth.

01:06:08The ME said he'd been asphyxiated.

01:06:11That was a very emotional moment.

01:06:14Did it number on you?

01:06:16Yeah, those aren't, those are memories that, you know, don't go away.

01:06:23They found Tylee 25 or 30 yards away.

01:06:26It was Tylee who was burned, her body dismembered.

01:06:31Chad, who'd been watching all this, suddenly got in his car, started driving away.

01:06:37So they got chasing down the road just a little ways, and he pulled over,

01:06:40and they went and pulled him out of the car and detained him.

01:06:43There he is!

01:06:45So I asked, do you want me to tell your kids anything?

01:06:49And he says, no, I already told them I'd probably be going to jail today.

01:06:53I went, oh, well, you're right.

01:06:57They put Chad and Lori in separate jails and gave them separate trials.

01:07:02Chad for three counts of murder, for killing Tammy, J.J., and Tylee,

01:07:07and for several counts of conspiracy to murder and insurance fraud.

01:07:12Lori faced two counts of first-degree murder, J.J. and Tylee,

01:07:15conspiracy to murder Tammy, and grand theft.

01:07:19Madison County Prosecuting Attorney Rob Wood.

01:07:22Our theme was this is about money, sex, and power.

01:07:26There were all these tangential religious issues,

01:07:30but it really was about money and sex and trying to control people.

01:07:35People who were in the way that they called obstacles,

01:07:38they got rid of them and profited from that.

01:07:42The defendant would please rise.

01:07:45Both Chad and Lori were convicted on all counts.

01:07:49Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.

01:07:52How involved do you think Lori was in the deaths of her own children?

01:07:57I think the evidence suggests she was involved at some level.

01:08:02J.J.'s body showed signs of a struggle, and looking at how he was found,

01:08:07I think it suggests that more than one person was involved.

01:08:13And Tylee, you know, I would tend to think it was probably a two-person thing.

01:08:18The jury sentenced Chad Daybell to death.

01:08:21The defendant would be sentenced to death on those counts.

01:08:25And Lori?

01:08:27Jesus knows me, and Jesus understands me.

01:08:33Before her sentencing to life imprisonment, she said something rather curious.

01:08:40Accidental deaths happen. Suicides happen.

01:08:45Fatal side effects from medications happen.

01:08:49What on earth was she talking about?

01:08:52Her surviving son wanted to know, and so did we.

01:09:11When we met with Lori Vallow Daybell in jail, we were given 90 minutes to speak to her.

01:09:1690 minutes, no more.

01:09:19She seemed determined to fill the time with tales about Tylee.

01:09:23She claimed that giving birth to Tylee actually killed her.

01:09:28Briefly, sent them both straight to heaven, before Jesus asked her to return to life on earth.

01:09:35When I saw Tylee in heaven, before she was born,

01:09:39she knew she was going to come have all these difficult things,

01:09:42and she was still giddy with excitement about coming to earth and fulfilling her mission.

01:09:49Meanwhile, Lori dodged questions about the wreckage in her own life.

01:09:54We have Tylee, we have JJ, we have Chad's wife, we have the attempted murder on Brandon,

01:10:01we have, you know, there's a lot of mayhem.

01:10:04There's a lot to my life. If you want to hear the actual explanations, I'm here.

01:10:08But does it sound like you really want a lot of the actual explanations?

01:10:12I do, I do, I do, but I just, I don't have all week to hear all these explanations.

01:10:15Well, it's going to take a long time, so it's probably going to take more than one session.

01:10:18Uh-huh.

01:10:19That, the sheriff's office told us, was not a possibility.

01:10:23This visit with Lori, they said, was a one-time thing.

01:10:31It turned out, by the way, that we weren't the only ones searching for answers from Lori.

01:10:36Perhaps no one on earth has been more affected by her crimes than this man, her son, Colby.

01:10:44I've been working in therapy on unpacking a lifetime worth of stuff.

01:10:50I mean, it's an ongoing process.

01:10:52In the past half decade, Colby has lost his brother, his sister, his stepfather Charles,

01:10:58the most stable male figure in his life, his uncle Alex, and of course, his imprisoned mother.

01:11:05How did it change the way you view the world?

01:11:08I guess I always was like a very positive, see the best in people kind of person.

01:11:13Uh-huh.

01:11:14And then I watched someone that I knew my entire life, you know, do what she did,

01:11:23and it just changed the way I view people.

01:11:26And all the craziness and death?

01:11:29There's just no way to, like, explain to anybody what it's like to go from, you know, let's call it normal life

01:11:37to something this big happening.

01:11:40And then I have to deal with the complexity that that's my mom, you know,

01:11:43that's someone that I don't even recognize anymore.

01:11:47You know, there's a microscope on your life, too.

01:11:50Yeah.

01:11:51Do you get the feeling of being watched as you progress through life?

01:11:55Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the thing I think I finally somewhat embraced is people are going to have questions.

01:12:06Welcome to the Scar Wars podcast.

01:12:09And so in the past year, Colby has decided to use his YouTube channel, he calls it Scar Wars, to help with his own healing.

01:12:18And then a few months ago, Colby, who hadn't spoken to his mom in more than four years, began to worry about this.

01:12:26I thought, well, what if she passes away, right?

01:12:32And I think asking myself that question kind of brought me to a point of, you know what, if I ask her for an interview,

01:12:41maybe I can at least keep myself emotionally in check while I ask the biggest questions I've always had.

01:12:49You sound good to me. I don't know if you can hear me very well.

01:12:52Yeah, I can hear you pretty good.

01:12:54And so five months ago, Lori called Colby from jail, and it gave him the chance to ask her how Tylee and JJ really died.

01:13:04I wanted to talk to you so I could hear your questions and answer your questions,

01:13:09because you are the only person besides me on this whole earth who really loved both of them the way that I did.

01:13:20And then Lori spun a story, which investigators have told us simply could not have happened, based on the evidence.

01:13:28It was evening, she told Colby, and she asked Tylee to put JJ to bed.

01:13:34What if Tylee holding JJ down for too long, trying to get him to not scream and be loud in the apartment,

01:13:41which she was always upset about, and what if she held him down too long and realized afterwards what she had done?

01:13:48Her implication was perfectly obvious. Tylee smothered JJ, saw he was dead, and then took her own life in a fit of remorse.

01:13:58It was hours later, said Lori, when she walked in and found their two bodies.

01:14:04Quite a story. Colby was not having it.

01:14:08You're telling me Tylee took JJ's life, then took her own life, and then someone cremated her by dismembering her,

01:14:18and burning her, and throwing her in a pet cemetery, and then somebody bound JJ, put him in a trash bag, and threw him in the backyard.

01:14:25And that was it.

01:14:27What I'm saying is, is I wasn't aware what happened to them after I left that scene.

01:14:33You're saying someone else took care of the situation.

01:14:39Someone else could only mean Alex and or Chad.

01:14:45And somehow it's all Tylee's fault.

01:14:47Yeah. It must be nice and easy to blame my dead little sister for everything.

01:14:53It must be really convenient for her.

01:14:55Did you believe any of that stuff?

01:14:57Absolutely not.

01:14:59All BS.

01:15:00That's all lies.

01:15:01None of it ever added up.

01:15:03And so Colby made the decision to tell his mom his truth.

01:15:07This situation does put us at odds.

01:15:10And I can't sit here and say that I agree with you.

01:15:13I don't. I can't even really understand where this side's coming from.

01:15:19I don't wish pain or anything on you. I have no malice towards you. Zero.

01:15:25And I do 100% forgive you.

01:15:29I forgive you.

01:15:31But you and I can't even be a part of each other's lives.

01:15:33Because I don't feel like I know you anymore.

01:15:36This is my mission, and my mission will be revealed to everybody at some point, and including you.

01:15:43And at that time, I just want you to know, I'm not going to say I told you so.

01:15:47I'm just going to say I love you.

01:15:49And after, Colby spoke directly to his viewers.

01:15:55My sister could not kill my brother.

01:15:59She didn't.

01:16:04To put it on her is so unfair.

01:16:14It's so unfair.

01:16:15Tylee, she would never do that.

01:16:19You're asking me questions.

01:16:21Did she understand what she was doing to her only surviving son?

01:16:26Would she finally face up to what she did to the others?

01:16:31Were you there the night that Tylee died?

01:16:34Were you there the night that JJ died?

01:16:36Attitude.

01:16:51Is that not what you wanted to hear?

01:16:53Attitude here.

01:16:54You're calling me a babbler?

01:16:56And here.

01:16:57Do you want to take a break?

01:16:59As we neared the end of our jailhouse interview with Lori Vallow, I was struck by the contrast.

01:17:06I think that's kind of the place I'm at now is just acceptance.

01:17:09Just full acceptance of the situation.

01:17:12Son Colby, reflective, anguished, a serious man.

01:17:17The way that my sister was treated was with hate.

01:17:23That's not even human to do what they did to her after.

01:17:27And Lori?

01:17:29Not quite sure what this was.

01:17:32You want to go on later and say, Lori told me this in your ominous voice, but really this is what happened.

01:17:38Are you going to do that to me, Keith?

01:17:40Ominous voice?

01:17:41Yeah.

01:17:42Maybe that one?

01:17:43Yes.

01:17:46That's the exact voice that I'm talking about.

01:17:49Lori danced, verbally that is, danced away from questions she seemed determined to avoid.

01:17:57She tried to fill our allotted 90 minutes with a long and rambling story about Tylee,

01:18:03clearly leading up to the same one she told son Colby.

01:18:07Well, we tried to finally pin her down on the established facts that had convicted her of multiple counts of murder.

01:18:15Why did Chad label your children dark and then, you know, call them zombies?

01:18:21You're saying that didn't happen?

01:18:23Did you hear him say that?

01:18:24Well, no, but others did.

01:18:26I didn't.

01:18:27Oh, I see, I see.

01:18:29But that would be a pattern, that he would label people dark,

01:18:33and then they would either die or somebody would have an attempt on their life.

01:18:37No, that's the narrative that you've been running.

01:18:41The evidence showed that Tylee was killed the night they returned from Yellowstone, September 8th, 2019,

01:18:48and JJ was killed 14 days later.

01:18:53No, that's not accurate.

01:18:57Sorry, it's not the truth.

01:18:59You asked me for the truth, you're asking me personally,

01:19:02the only person on the earth who really knows,

01:19:05and you're shaking your head no, like that didn't happen.

01:19:07Did I shake my head?

01:19:08Yeah, you're shaking your head, a little bit.

01:19:10No, I'm just looking at you.

01:19:15The evidence presented at Lori's Idaho murder trial left her jury in no doubt whatsoever.

01:19:20I'm quoting what the court said about you and Chad.

01:19:24Go ahead and quote it.

01:19:25That you actually conspired to kill these people.

01:19:28Were you there?

01:19:29I was falsely accused, I was falsely convicted, and I will be exonerated.

01:19:36Alright, fine. Were you there the night that Tylee died?

01:19:41Were you there the night that JJ died?

01:19:44Was I where?

01:19:45Was Alex in these places when they died?

01:19:47In the place where they died, were you there?

01:19:49Which, what place was that?

01:19:50Did you watch?

01:19:51What place was that?

01:19:52Do you have any idea?

01:19:53I'm asking.

01:19:54Well, I'm the only one that knows.

01:19:55Do you know? You're pretending like you know.

01:19:57It doesn't matter, I'm not pretending I know.

01:19:59I'm asking you a question.

01:20:01Did you watch your children die?

01:20:05That's a really sad question.

01:20:06It's a terrible question, and it's one I hate to have to ask.

01:20:09But, I mean, we've been talking about all of these things.

01:20:13I was not there, as you know.

01:20:15I told Colby.

01:20:17His response, remember?

01:20:19Did you believe any of that stuff?

01:20:21Absolutely not.

01:20:22But for Lori, it's as if the evidence, the trial, the conviction, don't exist at all.

01:20:29You did not kill a soul.

01:20:30Absolutely not.

01:20:31You didn't participate in killing a soul.

01:20:33You didn't conspire to kill a soul.

01:20:34Correct.

01:20:35You didn't do any of those things you've been convicted of doing.

01:20:37Correct.

01:20:38What to make of Lori?

01:20:40Soon, she will have to enter a whole new world.

01:20:44Not heaven, but her upcoming trial.

01:20:48I have two motions that I'd like to file at the court today.

01:20:50All right.

01:20:51She will be representing herself as she has tried for the murder of her husband, Charles.

01:20:56She's pleaded not guilty, and not guilty of conspiring to murder her nephew, Brandon.

01:21:02What's it like acting as your own lawyer?

01:21:05It's great, actually.

01:21:09It's a difficult thing to do.

01:21:11You have to have your arguments, you know?

01:21:13I think this judge in particular has been pretty patient in letting people get their whole argument out.

01:21:17I can see where he might need to be.

01:21:20Yeah.

01:21:21It will certainly give her a bigger slice of the limelight she seems to crave.

01:21:26And, she assured me, will get her ever closer to the final result she fully expects.

01:21:33She and Chad will go free.

01:21:36Chad was convicted and he's on death row now.

01:21:39I understand that, yeah.

01:21:41They have some fascinating stories.

01:21:42How could you possibly think that Chad would be exonerated after what happened?

01:21:46The same way I will be exonerated.

01:21:48We will both be exonerated in the future.

01:21:50Because?

01:21:51I have seen things in the future that Jesus showed me when I was in heaven.

01:21:56And we were not in jail.

01:21:58And we were not in prison.

01:21:59And they were still in the future, from now.

01:22:03Her own little world?

01:22:05Well, something like that.

01:22:09Outside, in the real world, her only surviving son works hard to build a good life.

01:22:17In spite of all of it.

01:22:19I felt really guilty for even being the only one that didn't get killed, I guess, for a long time.

01:22:25But, yeah, I mean, you know, you try to put a brave face on.

01:22:29You try to be there for your kids.

01:22:31You try to make it about them.

01:22:33But there's always a loneliness there.

01:22:38Well, his mother dances and dodges his questions and ours.

01:22:44And you're very good at dancing.

01:22:46And we should. We should do a little jig.

01:22:48You've already done a mental jig with your stories.

01:22:53After I get exonerated, maybe I'll go on Dancing with the Stars and you can come.

01:22:57Sure, okay, fine.

01:22:59And then...

01:23:00All right, I guess our time is up.

01:23:02Apparently it's up, yep.

01:23:04Lori Vallow Daybell went back to her cell.

01:23:13That's all for this edition of Dateline.

01:23:15And check out our Talking Dateline podcast.

01:23:18Keith Morrison and Andrea Canning will go behind the scenes of tonight's episode.

01:23:22Available Wednesday in the Dateline feed, wherever you get your podcasts.

01:23:27We'll see you again next Friday at 9, 8 central.

01:23:30I'm Lester Holt.

01:23:32For all of us at NBC News, good night.

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