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(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Muhammad Malick
Guests:
- Hamid Khan PTI (Lawyer)
- Hasnaat Malik (Court Reporter)
- Barrister Aqeel Malik PMLN
Six New Judges Added to the Supreme Court: Muhammad Malik's Analysis on the Important News
What Happened in Today's Judicial Commission Meeting? Court Reporter Hasnat Malik's Inside Story
Why is There Division in the Lawyers Community? Muhammad Malik's Question to Hamid Khan
Barrister Aqeel Malik says 26th amendment cannot be eliminated by taking to the streets
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
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ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Muhammad Malick
Guests:
- Hamid Khan PTI (Lawyer)
- Hasnaat Malik (Court Reporter)
- Barrister Aqeel Malik PMLN
Six New Judges Added to the Supreme Court: Muhammad Malik's Analysis on the Important News
What Happened in Today's Judicial Commission Meeting? Court Reporter Hasnat Malik's Inside Story
Why is There Division in the Lawyers Community? Muhammad Malik's Question to Hamid Khan
Barrister Aqeel Malik says 26th amendment cannot be eliminated by taking to the streets
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
Category
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NewsTranscript
00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, you are watching Khabar Lahariya, I am Muhammad Malik.
00:17Today, six new judges have been approved by the Judicial Commission in the Supreme Court.
00:23Four of them are the Chief Justices of different High Courts.
00:29They are senior judges in the top five.
00:32We were hearing a lot about the court packing.
00:38PTA and other people were also concerned about it.
00:41These judges have come on the basis of seniority.
00:45So the question is whether the court is still being packed or not.
00:50We will talk about this as well.
00:52An interesting development has also taken place.
00:54Gul Hasan Orangejeb, who is a judge of the Islamabad High Court,
00:59and in the past, his judges have taken very strict decisions from the government's point of view.
01:04He has been appointed as an acting judge of the Supreme Court.
01:08This is very interesting.
01:09The critics think that he has been removed from the Islamabad High Court
01:14because if he had to appoint an acting judge, he would have done it.
01:17So what was the need for an acting judge when appointments were being made?
01:21We will also talk about the real purpose of this move.
01:24Because nowadays, everything is happening in the Islamabad High Court.
01:28Do you remember that when Mr. Dogar was brought from the Lahore High Court,
01:32he was the 15th judge there.
01:34When he was brought here, he would be the senior judge.
01:38Because Justice Aamir Farooq has also been approved today.
01:42The current Chief Justice of the Islamabad High Court will become a judge of the Supreme Court.
01:47After that, he is the highest seniority at the moment.
01:50There is a lot of fight going on in this seniority.
01:52Five judges of the Islamabad High Court wrote to their Chief Justice, Mr. Aamir Farooq
01:57and raised objections.
01:58They said that he cannot work without taking an oath.
02:01If he takes an oath, he will be a junior judge.
02:03Now this is also being reported on different channels.
02:05Today, it is also being reported that Chief Justice Aamir Farooq has rejected his five judges.
02:14But it is not just about the judges of the High Court.
02:16Four judges of the Supreme Court wrote a letter to the Chief Justice, Mr. Aamir Farooq
02:22in which they said that you should not appoint new judges of the Supreme Court
02:27until the challenges of the 26th Amendment are resolved.
02:32Four months have passed and those petitions are still undecided.
02:36Anyway, that has also been rejected.
02:38But in his letter, he also talked about the judges of the High Court.
02:42He said that you cannot do this.
02:44You will have to take an oath.
02:46Otherwise, in the future, there will be problems with their decisions.
02:50So, this controversy is going on.
02:52Interestingly, this is happening at a time when for the first time in Pakistan,
02:55IMF is not a new thing for me, but IMF has come up with a mission.
02:59And today, I was reading your detailed news from the Express Tribune.
03:04They said that this is the first of its kind mission
03:07which has come to Pakistan for Pakistan Governance and Corruption Diagnostic Assessment.
03:12And basically, they want to assess corruption and governance in our laws.
03:17And in this, the structure of justice will obviously be important.
03:20The information is that they quote the sources of the government and say
03:24that these people will also get the Judicial Commission.
03:27This delegation will also get the judges of the Supreme Judiciary and the judges of the Supreme Court.
03:32And on such an occasion, the mission of the IMF has come.
03:35And the first big thing is to leave the rest of the system.
03:38This is what the controversy is about.
03:40How are the judges being appointed?
03:42There are many questions about this.
03:44But today, we will take both versions.
03:47Hamid Khan has joined us.
03:49He is a senior leader and a senator.
03:51And he is a senior leader of PTI.
03:53Thank you very much.
03:54And in the next part of the program, I will talk to Ambassador Aqeel Malik.
03:57He is an advisor to the Ministry of Law and Justice.
03:59He has a relationship with PMLN. He is an MNA.
04:01But Hamid Bhai, with your permission, I will start with Hassanat Malik.
04:06He is a senior court reporter.
04:08You are all familiar with him.
04:11He had very interesting news.
04:14I was listening to him.
04:15What happened today in the Judicial Commission of Pakistan?
04:18Hassanat, Assalam-o-Alaikum.
04:20Yes, Walekum-o-Salaam.
04:21Tell me, I have heard that there were big fights and fights.
04:24What happened there that the judges were being appointed today?
04:27Yes, yes.
04:29Mr. Malik, if you look at it,
04:32Chief Justice Iyad Abidi and Justice Mansoor Ali Shah have been friends for more than 40 years.
04:38And today, as we saw, there was a dispute in the Judicial Commission between the two.
04:44It is being said that when the members of PTI,
04:47Justice Mansoor Ali Shah and Justice Muneeb Akhtar,
04:50insisted that the Judicial Commission meeting should be postponed,
04:54until the 26th amendment case is decided,
04:57while the members of PTI were saying that until the issue of senality is resolved in the Islamabad court,
05:03the case should be postponed.
05:06Mr. Iyad Abidi was not agreeing to this.
05:09It is being said that he was persuaded and he said that
05:14when the judges go on leave,
05:17then I will have to take a new judge.
05:20So this was a big scolding.
05:22Such a scolding is very rare,
05:24that when you go on leave, then I will have to take a judge.
05:27Then when those four left,
05:30there were nine members.
05:32There was also a disagreement among the nine members.
05:35As you can see, the government in the Lahore High Court,
05:38which wanted to bring two judges to the Supreme Court,
05:41the judges were against them,
05:43because there was a serious kind of observation about them,
05:46already in July last year,
05:49in the minutes of the Judicial Commission,
05:51about their integrity.
05:53It was not successful to bring those two judges from the Lahore High Court.
05:56In the case of the Chief Justice of the Islamabad High Court,
05:59it is said that the Chief Justice,
06:03Jamal Mandooghail and Akhtar Hussain,
06:05who were representatives of the Pakistan Bar Council,
06:08also had the view that the case of the Islamabad High Court should be deferred
06:12until the issue of senality is determined.
06:15But Mr. Iyad Abidi and Aminuddin,
06:20they supported it with the five members of the government.
06:23In this way, with seven votes,
06:25Amir Farooq Sahib has also been elevated to the Supreme Court.
06:31The rest of the case was unanimous in Sindh.
06:35A judge from Balochistan was also unanimous.
06:38Both judges from Peshawar were unanimous.
06:40That is, nine members supported it.
06:43But the interesting case was that of the Chief Justice of the Islamabad High Court
06:48and two judges from Lahore High Court,
06:50in which the government was not successful.
06:52What is the background of Gul Hassan Aurangzeb,
06:55who has been made the acting judge of the Supreme Court?
07:02There is no information as to whether he has been consented or not.
07:08I remember that when the Chief Justice of the Sindh High Court,
07:12Ahmed Sheikh, was told that he should be appointed as an ad hoc judge,
07:17he refused.
07:18Otherwise, if a Judicial Commission decides,
07:22no judge can refuse.
07:25Under Article 206, you have to take a forced retirement.
07:30But if an acting judge refuses without his consent,
07:35then will he be forced to retire or will he remain?
07:42This can only be said legally.
07:45Is his relationship with Umar Ayub the reason for his resignation?
07:52No, I don't think so.
07:54The Islamabad High Court has always been the government's.
07:57Ever since these six judges wrote the letter,
08:00it was decided from that day itself that the balance in the Islamabad High Court,
08:06which seems to be the government's,
08:08I think the number of judges was less,
08:10so they had to complete it.
08:13I think this raises a lot of questions.
08:17But whatever happened after Article 26,
08:20if Chief Justice Yahya Faridi and Justice Ameenuddin Khan had not supported the government,
08:25the government would not have been successful.
08:27This time, the government received support from the Judiciary.
08:32I think this is the first time this has happened.
08:35And that is why the government has been successful.
08:37After Article 26, all the decisions of the Judicial Commission
08:41have now included a total of 43 judges.
08:44The majority of those judges are executive appointees,
08:48who were wanted by big political parties.
08:52However, there are very serious questions on competency and integrity.
08:58Similarly, the Supreme Court also did not have an executive backing judge.
09:03So this is a very big number, 43 judges.
09:05But if Mr. Yahya Faridi wanted,
09:07and he said that first the decision on Article 26 should be made,
09:11then the judges will be appointed.
09:13In Article 18, we saw that Mr. Iftikhar Ghomachaudi
09:16did not call for a Judicial Commission meeting
09:18until he said that a Judicial Review could not be held for Article 18.
09:22But here we saw that Mr. Yahya Faridi
09:25has also been completely on the same page with the government.
09:29This is a big setback for those judges who are aggrieved by Article 26.
09:35Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Hasna.
09:37You have told us very useful things.
09:39Mr. Amir Khan, you have heard everything.
09:41He is saying that if Justice Ameen and Justice Yahya Faridi
09:46had kept a little balance, then perhaps these things would not have happened.
09:50So are we going back to the same cycle
09:55where the Chief Justice and the courts will be controversial every time?
10:00How do you see this?
10:03Yes, it is absolutely right.
10:05The reason for bringing up Article 26 is that
10:09the government and the establishment behind it
10:14wants to capture everything.
10:17They have already captured the humanity of Pakistan.
10:21They only work as puppets.
10:26Similarly, they have captured the Parliament
10:30by rigging it on 8th February.
10:33And they have got it reformed.
10:36That was also done with great difficulty
10:38until the people were brought up.
10:40And now their last target is Judiciary.
10:45That we can use Judiciary as our puppets.
10:50And it is a pity that
10:52Yahya Faridi, who had a good reputation,
10:56is also a puppet.
10:59As far as Ameenuddin is concerned,
11:02people have known about him since day one.
11:05We all knew that he is a judge
11:08who follows the orders of the government and the establishment.
11:13But we are very disappointed with Yahya Faridi.
11:18Before his appointment,
11:21people thought that he is an independent judge.
11:25He was independent in his decisions as well.
11:28But in an attempt to take an office out of turn,
11:32he sold everything to his conscience.
11:36If these things are so simple and clear,
11:41then why is your law community so badly split?
11:45The Press Release of the Pakistan Bar Council
11:49has many different Supreme Court Bar Associations.
11:53They are on one side.
11:55And they told you that you are only playing political games.
11:58You have political interests.
12:00And you are destroying your own group.
12:03Otherwise, there is no problem.
12:05And I am asking this question because
12:07there are groups and there are fights.
12:10Everywhere there was talk of court packing.
12:14Today, there are six appointments.
12:17Four have been appointed by the Chief Justice.
12:20I don't think anyone will object to this.
12:23There are four Chief Justices of the Supreme Court.
12:26The other two judges are also in the top five in their own courts.
12:30So there is no issue.
12:33For example, the issue of Justice Dogar.
12:36He brought in the 15th judge and made him the senior judge in Islamabad High Court.
12:42So doesn't the issue of court packing in the Supreme Court seem weak?
12:47No, not at all.
12:49The strength of the Supreme Court that we had accepted was 17.
12:54So there was only one vacancy.
12:57Eight can't be filled.
12:59The legislation that has been done
13:01has been done in the middle of the night
13:04only for court packing.
13:06You can guess from this
13:08that the Supreme Court of India,
13:10the Supreme Court of a six-times-larger country,
13:13is made up of 34 judges.
13:15And that case has been going on for many years.
13:1831, 34, in this number.
13:20Pakistan, which is a country of a six-times-larger population,
13:25can't handle 17 judges.
13:27Of course it can.
13:29So it was very controversial to increase the number beyond 17.
13:33And this has been done on purpose.
13:36Its purpose is only to bring the judges of our choice here
13:40and take the decisions of our choice.
13:43So you can see the practical form of this.
13:47And so many judges who have been suddenly appointed,
13:51the court has been packed.
13:53This is always a step against freedom of expression.
13:58Secondly, what has been distributed from within,
14:02that a few judges have been included,
14:05and a bench has been made.
14:09Although every bench is a separate bench.
14:12Its purpose was also that the Supreme Court,
14:15which they thought would sometimes demonstrate freedom,
14:19I will give one example of this,
14:21that in the Senate,
14:23this came out of Mr. Yusuf Gilani's mouth,
14:26that when the 18th amendment came,
14:29we were very happy,
14:31because that was also the time of Uttar Pradesh,
14:34and he was the Prime Minister.
14:36So someone came to us and said,
14:38no matter how happy you are,
14:40as many judges you release,
14:42they will hug you.
14:44They will disqualify you as well as someone else.
14:47So this is their personal grievance,
14:49of Yusuf Gilani and Noah Sharif.
14:51That is why they are taking revenge from the institution.
14:54The thing is that those who disqualified you,
14:57Mr. Gilani was completely disqualified.
14:59He was contempted and sentenced.
15:02But today you are taking revenge from the institution.
15:07Those people who disqualified you have left.
15:10You are making the new Supreme Court,
15:14the target of your revenge.
15:17This is a very sad thing.
15:19This also has to do with the law.
15:21In the judges,
15:23as you said,
15:25the Chief Justice has compromised
15:27to become an out-of-turn Chief Justice.
15:30You can say that the judges are doing it for power.
15:35That is why many people are compromising.
15:37Why are the lawyers so divided?
15:40It is such a simple thing.
15:42Everyone can see that the judiciary is in a big crisis.
15:45Because if there is a disputed court,
15:47the decisions are already disputed.
15:49These will be double disputed.
15:51So you could not even convince the lawyers
15:53to come to the same page with you.
15:55It seems that the PTI has not had a bad day.
15:58The army chief does not answer your letters.
16:01You can't come to the streets.
16:03Even the lawyers are not listening to you.
16:07Today, lawyers from Karachi to Peshawar
16:11have come to the streets of Islamabad.
16:13They have been tortured.
16:15They have been fought.
16:17Everything has happened.
16:19The thing that the lawyers said
16:21that they are not coming to the streets
16:23has happened.
16:25Lawyers from Karachi and Lahore
16:27have come to the streets of Islamabad.
16:29Everything has happened.
16:31These few people
16:33are not lawyers.
16:35They have controlled the Pakistan Bar.
16:37They used to be out-of-turn judges.
16:39Now they have become out-of-turn
16:41of the establishment.
16:43That is why they do not like lawyers.
16:45Today, these 5-6 people
16:47have come to the streets of Islamabad
16:49to protest.
16:51Call them.
16:53Even if 10 lawyers come to them.
16:55But they are elected.
16:57They are the elected body.
17:01The elected body
17:03is 5 years old.
17:05They have lost their
17:07new elections.
17:09They have done a lot
17:11in the Supreme Court elections.
17:13To show that
17:15this person
17:17has no worth.
17:19Neither do the lawyers
17:21like him.
17:23In order to bring him back,
17:25they used
17:27these agencies.
17:29This was unprecedented.
17:31We have never seen
17:33anything like this
17:35before in the
17:37Bukla elections.
17:39Unfortunately,
17:41the establishment decided
17:43when we were successful
17:45in the last election
17:47that we will infiltrate
17:49them.
17:51And they are infiltrating successfully.
17:53But despite this,
17:55the trend is in our favor.
17:57In front of you are
17:59most of Punjab's
18:01popular bar associations.
18:03District Bar Association,
18:05Lahore Bar Association,
18:07Multan Bar Association,
18:09Multan District Bar Association.
18:11Most of them
18:13have been elected
18:15but not of this group.
18:17Although they use
18:19all kinds of facilities,
18:21greed, threats,
18:23everything.
18:25That's why the lawyers
18:27are with us,
18:29not with them.
18:31The fight between
18:33the Supreme Court
18:35and the High Court
18:37is very serious.
18:39The Supreme Court judges
18:41are qualified.
18:43If they want to be considered,
18:45they have been appointed.
18:47They can be the next
18:49Chief Justice of the High Court.
18:51Four Supreme Court judges
18:53should be authorized.
18:55The third schedule is very clear.
18:57The judge's authorization
18:59is for the High Court
19:01of that district.
19:03Five judges of the
19:05Islamabad High Court
19:07have been appointed.
19:09One sentence
19:11is that
19:13there is a difference
19:15in the appointment
19:17and transfer of judges.
19:19There is a difference
19:21because you think
19:23they should be authorized.
19:25Nine judges say
19:27they should be authorized.
19:29Amir Farooq is the only judge
19:31who says there is no need.
19:33How will this decision be made?
19:35What options do they have
19:37to go to the Supreme Court?
19:39They have the option
19:41to go to the Supreme Court.
19:43We will go to the Bar Association
19:45in this matter.
19:47Amir Farooq
19:49is a puppet.
19:51It is not worth
19:53even considering.
19:55I don't think
19:57his opinion
19:59matters.
20:01He is a puppet.
20:03He is a puppet.
20:05It doesn't matter
20:07because he does
20:09what he is told.
20:11According to the constitution,
20:13the authorization
20:15is for a particular
20:17High Court.
20:19That High Court
20:21has its own territorial jurisdiction.
20:23If a judge
20:25of the Peshawar High Court
20:27is appointed,
20:29his jurisdiction
20:31is limited to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.
20:33Capital Territory
20:35has no jurisdiction.
20:37If he is transferred
20:39to the Islamabad High Court,
20:41he will have to take an oath.
20:43Tell me,
20:45did the judges
20:47who were transferred
20:49to the High Court
20:51take an oath?
20:53There are
20:55many issues
20:57in the past
20:59records.
21:01But I would like to tell you
21:03that they had to take an oath
21:05when they were sent
21:07to the Federal Shariah Court.
21:09They took an oath there.
21:11Generally,
21:13the transfer of judges
21:15was a big dispute
21:17which was resolved
21:19in the Judges'
21:21Judgment of 1996.
21:23It was said that
21:25from now on,
21:27without permission
21:29no judge will be transferred.
21:31I am asking you
21:33because
21:35the letter
21:37written by Justice Babar Sattar
21:39is a very comprehensive letter.
21:41You have pointed out
21:43to the Chief Justice
21:45that you have not mentioned
21:47whether the transfer is temporary
21:49or permanent.
21:51Is there any difference
21:53that if someone comes temporarily,
21:55he should not take an oath
21:57I am asking you
21:59because I was reading
22:01this Article 200.
22:03It has three very interesting points.
22:05It says that if at any time
22:07the Chief Justice feels that
22:09the number of judges is less,
22:11he can call another judge
22:13in the sittings of the High Court.
22:15It also says that the judge
22:17sitting in the sittings
22:19will have the same powers
22:21and jurisdiction
22:23as the original judges
22:25Does this mean
22:27that a judge's
22:29jurisdiction cannot run
22:31in all provinces?
22:33Is there any difference
22:35that the temporary transfer
22:37does not have to take an oath
22:39and the permanent judge
22:41has to take an oath?
22:43I think
22:45there is no difference.
22:47Whether he is transferred
22:49for a year or
22:51is transferred permanently.
22:53There is no difference
22:55because he has the same powers
22:57that a permanent judge
22:59has the powers of the High Court.
23:01Therefore,
23:03when he assumes
23:05the territorial jurisdiction
23:07which he would not have
23:09taken an oath before,
23:11his decisions are disputed.
23:13This is why Babri Sattar's
23:15viewpoint is absolutely correct
23:17and whatever Amir Farooq
23:19is doing is very sad
23:21This is why the dispute
23:23will arise.
23:25Dogar was the judge
23:27of Islamabad High Court
23:29and how did he decide?
23:31Therefore,
23:33this is the word
23:35that should be declared.
23:37This is creating
23:39all kinds of complications.
23:41But these things
23:43will go to Ayni Bench.
23:45You have the first objection
23:47to Ayni Bench
23:49How do you think
23:51the decisions will be changed?
23:53You are absolutely
23:55correct.
23:57We are witnessing a chaos.
23:59Since the 26th
24:01of January,
24:03we have been saying
24:05that they are taking
24:07the judicial system
24:09towards anarchy and chaos.
24:11The aim is
24:13that there should not be
24:15an institution
24:17that does not accept
24:19freedom or
24:21projects itself
24:23as a free institution.
24:25This is a very desperate
24:27attempt on the part of
24:29every institution.
24:31But the way things are,
24:33it seems that all the houses
24:35have been ticked by the government
24:37and the establishment.
24:39I think that you are not
24:41on the losing side.
24:43The 26th amendment came,
24:45you were appointed,
24:47Ayni Bench was formed,
24:49the judges of Ayni Bench
24:51are heading them.
24:53The appointment issue,
24:55the judges are being elevated.
24:57You keep shouting,
24:59but your court is being
25:01packed, the seniority
25:03of Islamabad High Court
25:05has been brought down.
25:07At the end of the day,
25:09legally, they are doing
25:11all the work.
25:13Isn't it something
25:15that is already done?
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28:59is a disputed amendment.
29:01Now see, what happened in India in 2014-15,
29:06they made the 99th amendment,
29:08and after making the 99th amendment,
29:10a commission was created under it.
29:14In 2016, the Indian Supreme Court
29:19struck it down as outside the basic structure
29:24of the constitution.
29:25So, this thing happened there too,
29:28but the Supreme Court showed its internal strength.
29:32Sir, the Supreme Court is now in control there too,
29:35and they make all the decisions on Hindutva
29:37for the BJP government and Modi.
29:39The Supreme Court's condition is not bad there too.
29:42Anyway, Mr. Khabit, thank you very much,
29:44always grateful for the time you give us.
29:47It seems that absolute control is coming
29:50from the government,
29:51whatever you call it,
29:52you can call it government-establishment combined.
29:54And right now, hope seems to be the strategy,
29:58the opposition group.
30:00This strategy is not that encouraging.
30:04Anyway, let's take a look at the government
30:06after this break, stay with us.
30:13Welcome back to the show.
30:14In this segment, we are joined by
30:16Barrister Keel Balik,
30:18Advisor Minister of Law and Justice.
30:20There have been so many disputes,
30:22today there was a dispute
30:24between the judges in the Judicial Commission.
30:26There was a dispute between the three judges.
30:28The judges of the High Court are running.
30:30Nine judges, five judges of the Islamabad High Court,
30:33four judges of the Supreme Court,
30:35they say that an oath should be taken,
30:37they say that an oath will have to be taken.
30:39You have made three judges.
30:40But it seems that the nine judges are on one side,
30:42and Amir Farooq Sahib is the only one,
30:44he is the only one,
30:45he said no, no, there is no need.
30:47And he is at the top.
30:49We are talking about the 26th Amendment.
30:52What mountain was to fall
30:54if a petitioner,
30:55the case that has been pending for four months,
30:57had decided earlier,
30:58and then these disputes would have ended.
31:00Everything,
31:01why are you forcing so much?
31:04You have to come out of the government tomorrow,
31:06remember that.
31:07Yes, absolutely.
31:08Time does not stay the same.
31:09Let the bridge go to the other side.
31:10But no.
31:11I, in the name of God,
31:13will definitely say that
31:15amending the 26th Amendment
31:17is the right of the Parliament.
31:19There is no doubt about that.
31:22Now, if you say here that
31:24we will undo the 26th Amendment on the streets,
31:27that is not possible.
31:28This is the prerogative.
31:29No, no, it is your right, sir.
31:30All your rights are yours.
31:31No, you tell me,
31:32is it not the right of the Parliament
31:34to legislate,
31:35to amend the constitution,
31:37to institute the constitution?
31:39You have the right to do 1,80,000,
31:40500,000, 5,20,000,
31:41that is also your right.
31:44Some of our members have done 400%.
31:47You do not ask people about that.
31:48You do not ask people about
31:49the benefits you have.
31:50The PTI people are also included in this.
31:52Yes, yes, they are all there.
31:53So, I am not asking you to accept them.
31:55No, I am saying that
31:56do not blame the government.
31:57This is the right of the Parliament.
31:58Now, you tell me,
31:59if the decision on the 26th Amendment
32:01had been made,
32:02then all these debates
32:03would not have ended.
32:05Look, I think that
32:07all these things
32:09that you can see,
32:11first of all,
32:12I take a strict exception to this.
32:14The Bar Association,
32:16the Bar Council,
32:18the elected bodies,
32:20the representatives,
32:21they are saying that
32:22we reject this outrightly.
32:24No, no, the Islamabad High Court Bar Association,
32:26the Islamabad Bar Council,
32:27the Lahore High Court Bar Association,
32:28the Lahore Bar Association,
32:29the Balochistan Bar Council,
32:30the Supreme Court Bar Association,
32:31the Pakistan Bar Association,
32:32the Karachi Bar Association,
32:33the Lahore Bar Association,
32:34they are also elected,
32:35they are against you.
32:36Some are elected with you,
32:37some are against you.
32:38But, but,
32:39I am talking about the apex body.
32:40The apex body is the
32:41Pakistan Bar Council.
32:42And what does the
32:43Pakistan Bar Council say?
32:44Sir, leave that too.
32:45I will answer my own question.
32:46The 26th Amendment,
32:47from which all the debates were held,
32:48if it had been made,
32:49then what was the problem?
32:50What was the problem?
32:51Okay, you take this argument.
32:52If these six judges
32:53had come after two weeks,
32:54what would have happened?
32:55You, you take this argument.
32:56These two judges
32:57and two opposition members
32:58of the JCP,
32:59whose primary responsibility
33:00was to sit
33:01in that meeting,
33:02in that committee,
33:03or to sit in that commission,
33:04which today,
33:05they have taken
33:06their primary responsibility.
33:07Ali Zafar
33:09has written the first letter
33:10to the JCP.
33:11No, not at all.
33:12Sir, you should
33:13break this down.
33:14There are ten decisions
33:15in the Peshawar High Court.
33:16There are ten decisions
33:17in Balochistan.
33:18There are ten decisions
33:19in Lahore.
33:20I say, all are bad.
33:21Then sit.
33:22I say, these are two numbers.
33:23I will sit with you.
33:24All are wrong.
33:25All are wrong.
33:26The judges of the High Court
33:27are appointed.
33:28I am asking a question.
33:29I am asking a question.
33:30The question is this.
33:31If the 26th Amendment
33:32had been decided earlier,
33:33the four judges of the Supreme Court
33:34are saying,
33:35they are also senior judges.
33:36Absolutely.
33:37So, if the Supreme Court
33:38had made a decision,
33:39what would have happened?
33:40They would not have
33:41sat in the first exercise.
33:42The first exercise was
33:43the Peshawar High Court,
33:44Sindh High Court,
33:45Balochistan High Court,
33:46Islamabad High Court,
33:47Lahore High Court.
33:48When the judges
33:49of all the High Courts
33:50were appointed,
33:51their allegations were made.
33:52Why do you put everything
33:53on someone?
33:54Now, the Supreme Court
33:55has come and
33:56has come up with a problem.
33:57This is against the spirit
33:58of the Constitution.
33:59But if you people
34:00are so honest,
34:01so good,
34:02you do not have
34:03any problem,
34:04then it is better
34:05that you do not
34:06make such allegations.
34:07You should have
34:08let the 26th Amendment
34:09be decided.
34:10After that,
34:11you should have said,
34:12these are the judges
34:13who are being elevated.
34:14Exactly.
34:15If this had happened
34:16four weeks later,
34:17eight weeks later,
34:18what would have happened?
34:19But, Mr. Malik,
34:20you see that
34:21the bone of contention
34:22was that
34:23if the seniority
34:24of Lahore High Court
34:25was disturbed
34:26and the seniority
34:27of Islamabad High Court
34:28was disturbed,
34:29the allegations
34:30were made.
34:31This is a very serious
34:32allegation.
34:33But someone came from there,
34:34one person
34:35was right.
34:36Let's leave
34:37the time aside.
34:38You see,
34:39let's leave
34:40the issue of
34:41Islamabad High Court.
34:42I was reading
34:43Justice Babar Sattar's
34:44letter.
34:45He made two
34:46very interesting
34:47points.
34:48He said,
34:49leave the rest.
34:50You should also
34:51leave the issue
34:52that everything
34:53is about the oath.
34:54Now, how was
34:55Islamabad High Court
34:56running?
34:57On the 3rd,
34:58an administrative
34:59committee of
35:00Islamabad High Court
35:01changes,
35:02in which Justice
35:03Dogar is made.
35:05You say the
35:06rules of Islamabad
35:07High Court are
35:08Chief Justice
35:09plus two senior
35:10judges.
35:11If you take
35:12the list of
35:13seniority of
35:14Amir Farooq,
35:15he is in the
35:169th place
35:17out of 12.
35:18Where did that
35:19senior judge
35:20come from?
35:21Tell me how
35:22he can be
35:23in the
35:24administrative
35:25committee.
35:26This is an
35:27administrative
35:28order.
35:29It should be
35:30challenged.
35:31Everything should
35:32be challenged.
35:33This is an
35:34administrative
35:35order.
35:36Do you
35:37justify?
35:38This is an
35:39administrative
35:40order.
35:41Which is in
35:42defiance of
35:43service rules.
35:44Well, if it is,
35:45then this should
35:46be challenged.
35:47This should be
35:48brought to light.
35:49The government
35:50is not doing
35:51this.
35:52Nothing has
35:53happened.
35:54Has the
35:55government
35:56made any
35:57order?
35:58Has the
35:59government
36:00made any
36:01notification
36:03to the
36:04people?
36:05The
36:06government
36:07has not
36:08made
36:09any
36:10notification.
36:11How do
36:12they operate
36:13in a
36:14state like
36:15this?
36:16If they
36:17have passed
36:18an
36:19administrative
36:20order,
36:21if they
36:22feel it is
36:23wrong,
36:24then they
36:25can challenge
36:26it.
36:27There are
36:28forums
36:29available.
36:30There is
36:31for the state of Pakistan. Not for... Everybody works for the state of Pakistan. Absolutely. But, but, there's a difference between...
36:38Government, there's a difference between... Jurisdiction. Jurisdiction. Yes.
36:40Jo hai wo High Court ke judge ki usi oath ki hai, jis oath, jis sube ke liye usi oath liya ho.
36:45Phir Article 200 ka kya karenge? Aur us Article 200 ke andar bhi ye cheez darj hai.
36:50Ab ye cheez toh faisla hona hai, ke ye, whether this is a temporary transfer or a permanent transfer.
36:56This also needs to be seen. Accha ye bhi Babasaheb saab ne, ye bhi Babasaheb saab ne poocha hai.
37:01Unhone ke hai ki, aapne notification nikaala transfer ka, usme nahi mention kiya wa ke temporary
37:05hai ke permanent hai. Well, this needs to be decided, whether this is temporary or permanent.
37:09Aur aap Jurisdiction ki baat karte hain, nam program se pehle hi baat karte hain. Ab Article
37:12200 hi le hain. Cheek hai. Usse section 3 le hain. Usme kehte hain ki, ye agar kabhi zaroorat
37:16pade, ke temporarily number of judges High Court ke badhaane hain, to Chief Justice
37:21saab jo hain, wo kisi High Court ke, kisi doosar judge ko request kar lete hain, ke
37:27aap aake yahan sit and speak. Provided wo consent karein. Haan, obviously. Lekin unh
37:31likhte hain, aur ye specify kar raha hai, wo jab High Court ka judge aake baithega, he
37:36shall have the same power and jurisdiction as a judge of that High Court. Absolutely.
37:40Ye explain kyun karna padha hai. Sun le, sun le, mera sawal sun. Ji ji. Explain isliye
37:45karna padha hai, ke automatic wo Jurisdiction all Pakistan ki nahi hai. Ek judge ko mere
37:50request ki, aap Lahore hai, High Court ke judge hain, mene Islamabad me request ki,
37:54ab aap aage, usme ye keh rahe hain Constitution, ke agar aisi situation mein isko bulaoge,
37:59jaise Saqeel saab ko, toh phir inki wohi powers abhi hongi jo, yahan ke judge ki hain. Specify
38:05karna padha hai. Toh ye je baat kehni hain, ke kyun ke ek oath le liya hai, toh aap wo
38:10kahin bhi jaa ke baith sakte hain, nahi. Ye aayin ka 200 bhi ye kehta hain, schedule
38:143 bhi ye kehta hain, aap log. Oath ka toh yahan pe likha nahi hai, not at all. Yahan
38:18pe toh oath ka likha hi nahi hai. Main yehi keh raha hoon ke, transfer ka hai, whether
38:23that transfer is a permanent transfer or a temporary transfer. Accha, if it is a permanent
38:27transfer, oath lena hoga? Again, main dekhe, it's a grey area. Advisor hain. Main yehi
38:32keh raha hoon, grey area. Advise karein chahiye. Main meri, dekhe, from very, jo meri understanding
38:38hai, nascent understanding, understanding of the bare reading of. Nascent understanding
38:44ek second. As well as. Jinki, jinki, nascent understanding. Main ye. Sunne main sunne.
38:48Ye case of first impression. Jinka nascent understanding hona law ki, wo advisors nahi
38:52lagte, ministry of law ki. Agar nascent understanding walo ko advisor lagana hai, toh phir waise
38:56is government ko ghar chale jana chahiye. Main, main. So you have to be an expert, jo
39:00aapko advisor lagaya hai. Dekhe, bilkul. Ab aap mujhe apni expert opinion de. My expert
39:04opinion is ke, wo oath leya nahi hoga. Kyun nahi hoga? Wo isli nahi hoga, ke if you
39:09reverse this, and if one of the judges who's willing to get transferred with his consent,
39:13kisi subhe ki high court mein, toh kya wo apni seniority chhodega? Haan toh na hai.
39:17Aap dekhe. Phir na hai. Nahi, wo, yehi baat hai na, ke fauj mein seniority, aap jab CSS
39:23ke. Sir, unki oaths different hai, unko mat laein. Main, sir, yehi kahe raha hoon na.
39:26Unki jurisdiction all Pakistan hai. Oaths chalein, aap oaths difference ke agar baat
39:30kaha, sir yeh dekhene. Achha bhi iske oath mein yeh kyu tha? A captain in the army is
39:34then coming into civil services. Sir, jee, sun le, mil baat. He will bring his experience
39:37and he will bring his seniority with him. Sir, ne, ne, sun le. Oath bana na, schedule
39:423 ka. Faujiyon ka bhi schedule 3 ke oath neeche oath hai. Civil service ka bhi schedule 3
39:47ke neeche oath hai. Judges ka bhi schedule 3 ke neeche oath hai. Oath ban sakta tha,
39:51vakilon nahi banaya tha na. Aap, maine toh nahi banaya tha. Vakilon ne baith ke woath
39:56banaya tha. Usme kyu mention kiya, ke is high court specific oath hai. Ho raha tha, I as
40:03judge of the high court. Service of the judicial service. Bade aaraam se unka bhi Pakistan
40:07ka ban sakta tha. Distinction deliberately banayi ki. Whatever the reasons. I think territorial
40:13jurisdiction ko usme defined kar diya gaya na. Territorial jurisdiction. Isliye jab
40:17aap judge hain, aap ki jo power hai, wo aapki defined jurisdiction ki power hai. Aur agar
40:23aap jurisdiction change karenge, aapko jurisdiction ka oath le do. Toh bhi article 200 mein uski
40:28jurisdiction aur powers di gayi hain, wo Sadr-e-Pakistan wo powers bhi deta hain, wo jurisdiction
40:33bhi deta hain. Hum nation understanding bhi kar deta hain. Ainda agar aapne hi harkatein
40:37karni hain, aap ek niya oath banwaadein schedule 3 mein judges ka. Jo all Pakistan ho, taaki
40:43jinnu jitho chukke jithe marzi lalo, besa mukha deo. Lekin jo kanoon hain, uska itraam
40:49kar le. Mai yehi baat kar raha hoon ki judges Pakistan ke judges hain. They are in service
40:54of Pakistan. They are not in service of a just particular province. Where does that
40:59oath say? Hoj ka oath hai na. To the constitution and army rules. To define that territorial
41:05jurisdiction. Toh wohi batata hai na. Territorial jurisdiction Timbuktu ke toh nahi ho sakta
41:09hai. Issa document in place kaun sa hai? Assumptions kode. Kyun, acha yeh kyun banaya
41:13hai? Punjab hai, Sindh hai, because they are defining a territorial jurisdiction. It cannot
41:17be. Timbuktu toh nahi ho sakta. Ya Baghdad toh nahi ho sakta. Baghdad toh aapne bana
41:22diya. Nahi, main toh, main yeh keh raha hoon ki, wahan pe aapko define karna hai, territorial
41:27jurisdiction. Because the judge should not transgress from his powers. Basically, aap
41:31logon. Supreme Court ke judges na, apne jubla likha tha. Unhone likha hai, apne letter
41:36mein. Chaar judges. Unhone kaha, what cannot be done indirectly, must not be done. What
41:43cannot be done directly, must not be done indirectly. Aap logon ka wohi hai. Jo cheez
41:48nahi kar sakte hai na, indirectly kar le. Because we are powerful, asi takke naal kar
41:53lage. Nahi, yeh bilkul bhi nahi hai. Yeh dhakke se hi ho raha hai? Lekhe, tamaam tar cheez
41:56hai, aayin aur kaanoon ke matlab ke. Grey area mein aap sab kuch. Mujhe yeh agar bata
42:00de, yeh tamaam, aaj ki jo elevations hain, supreme mein, kya yeh maawarai aayin ya kaanoon
42:05hai? Chale, chale, I've run out of time. Aur Allah aap logon ko aur takat de, taake
42:10aap aur dhakke se apne cheezein kar le. Pak mulk toh dekh lega. Break lete hain,
42:15stay with us.
42:19Ji, welcome back to the show. Humare dost, kheel bandhi ke ek bada favourite phrase
42:25hai, grey areas. Aur aap dekhenge ka kaanoon mein, adalaton mein, humeshe grey areas unni
42:30ko suit karte hain, jin ke paas padhi black and white mein power hoon. Jo takatwar hai,
42:35wo isi grey area ko define karta hai, kaise black hai, kya white hai. Kaanoon bada clear
42:40hai isme. Lekin like I said, kyunke grey area hai, toh jo takatwala hai, wo hi apni
42:45interpretation kar raha hai, wo hi apni marzi kar raha hai. Warna agar ek hi baat hoti,
42:50poore Pakistan ke legal services hoti, toh pe judges ka oath different kyun hai? Agar
42:56aap aayin padein, kaanoon padein, toh answers badein saab wazir taur pe hain. Lekin chale,
43:02meri bhi khairiyat aur aafiyat isi mein hai, ke main bhi grey area mein apne comments
43:06doon, kyunke aaj kal black and white comments can be very very harmful. Ijazat dijiye,
43:10Allah Hafiz.