Transfer latest as Sunderland make it two wins from two against Blades and Pompey
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:25My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley.
00:28So it's like a while since we've done one of these James, plenty of football to discuss
00:32and obviously we are in the midst of the January transfer window now as well.
00:35So we'll have a good discussion about any potential deals might be happening on we're
00:40side as well.
00:41Like I said, lots of football over that busy festive period.
00:45Most recently a 1-0 win over Portsmouth on Sunday afternoon for Sunderland.
00:52Just interested to get your thoughts on that game because it was a match in which Sunderland
00:56in my opinion were good value for the three points, but they had some dicey moments as
01:00well.
01:01I'm just sort of interested to see what you made of it.
01:05I think Sunderland definitely deserved to win.
01:06I thought they were good in the first half, if not a little bit sloppy, potentially could
01:11have been out of sight.
01:13Wonderful finish by Wilson Isidor.
01:14There was a couple of penalty shouts as well.
01:17Perhaps one was outside of the box and that was on Dennis Serkin just after halftime.
01:21My end, did he go down a little bit too soft, possibly a bit theatrically, but you have
01:25seen them given and we have seen them given recently as well in the Championship.
01:29Yes, Sunderland perhaps a little bit wasteful, I thought.
01:33My end, although he got the assist for Wilson Isidor's goal, there was a couple of opportunities
01:37where he could have done better with his attempt on goal or maybe just finding a man and getting
01:43his head up.
01:44But 19, still very raw and it just got really nervy towards the end, didn't it?
01:49Which was unfortunate, but to be honest, that can give them a pass because we've largely
01:53used the same 11, 12, 13 players over the Christmas period.
01:58I think it's a good opportunity.
02:00We said on our post-match video yesterday that it's a good opportunity now for some
02:04of these players to get a rest with Stoke City in the FA Cup coming up on Saturday and
02:08then it's Burnley the week after and then Derby in quick succession.
02:12So you would think and hope that Lebris is going to sort of rotate, give a couple of
02:15young players a look, a couple of fringe players an opportunity against Stoke City on Saturday.
02:20And that's not to disrespect the FA Cup.
02:22We all love the FA Cup.
02:23We all know Sunderland's history, but it just makes sense, I think, given Sunderland's squad.
02:29You know, Portsmouth going down to 10 men as well, Sunderland really should have put
02:32that game to bed.
02:33I do get the argument that, you know, good teams will really put other teams to the sword
02:39in that scenario.
02:40It didn't happen.
02:41I think you can flip it and say it's positive that Sunderland managed to grind out that
02:44result.
02:45And, you know, it's the 6th of January and we're still unbeaten at home in this season,
02:52which is a brilliant, brilliant achievement given the hammering we got off Blackburn towards
02:56the end of last season.
02:57We got beaten by Sheffield Wednesday last season.
03:00You know, I remember, what was it, six years ago, something like that.
03:04We went nearly a calendar year without winning at home.
03:08So yeah, I think there's lots of positives to take coming out of the festive period,
03:14for sure.
03:15Yeah, I mean, you've just sort of mentioned that there was a point that Regis Lebris made
03:20after the game, wasn't it, that Sunderland have now played five games in 15 days or something
03:25like that.
03:26And he hasn't got a great deal of depth in his squad at the moment because of injuries
03:30and because of absences.
03:31Obviously, some really important and high-profile players missing for Sunderland at the present
03:36moment in time.
03:37And as part of that, it's sort of necessitated this move to a 4-4-2, hasn't it?
03:42It's, you know, we've seen Maénda line up alongside Isidore as an actual two-man attack,
03:48which is not something that we would have necessarily expected from Regis Lebris, knowing
03:51what we know about the way that he likes to set up, generally speaking.
03:54I mean, Sunderland played that way against Sheffield United as well on New Year's Day,
03:58got a really good result there, 2-1 win at the Stadium of Light.
04:02Again, just sort of interested to get your feelings on that formation, because it feels
04:06as if Sunderland gain quite a lot from it, but they also maybe lose a little bit as well.
04:13No, absolutely.
04:16You gain Isidore working with Maénda and it looks to have given Isidore a little bit
04:19of a new lease of life, doesn't it?
04:21They clearly combine them very well together, they're getting goals and they're getting
04:24assists for each other, excuse me.
04:27So it's clearly hugely positive in that scenario.
04:31I think you have to credit Dan Neal and Joel Bellingham as well, who've gone from playing
04:34in a 3 to playing in a 2, but just naturally, you will lose control of some games.
04:41We did see it a little bit against Sheffield United and we definitely saw it against Portsmouth
04:45at times.
04:46Having a midfield too, whilst it provides benefits up front, and Sunderland actually
04:49have sort of developed this really good pattern of play through the middle with their strikers
04:53now because they're so fast and they're so pacey that they can play off each other,
04:57that the focus really has sort of gone from the wings into the middle of the pitch, hasn't
05:03it, with those two up front.
05:05That does mean that you can have your wingers sort of tuck in, which does help alleviate
05:10it.
05:11But I think we did see against Portsmouth that the game can look like getting away from
05:14you just about.
05:15I think Britt Lee on YouTube poses a really interesting question, can we play two up top
05:21during away games?
05:23And you do wonder whether Sunderland's next away game, Burnley, against a promotion rival,
05:30whether Lebris would revert to a 4-3-3, given the personnel at his disposal.
05:35That just feels like one where you would probably like to keep it tight.
05:39However, we know Lebris is a fairly attacking manager and since his switch to 4-4-2, it's
05:46really done wonders.
05:47But again, I think you actually have to credit the group and credit the head coach as well
05:51because Sunderland's injury list is really extensive at the moment and there's a lot
05:55of good players to come back into that squad.
05:57We're obviously in the January transfer window now, which we will come to.
06:02But yeah, it's been good to see that tactical flexibility, I think, from Lebris and it's
06:07good that actually Sunderland are developing a couple of ways of playing in the Championship.
06:12I think good teams have sort of multiple strings to the bow and we all love two good strikers
06:19up front at Sunderland, don't we?
06:20It feels like a bit of a throwback at the moment.
06:21I sort of tongue-in-cheek mentioned Super Kev and Quinny during the game against Portsmouth
06:28and you sort of get those vibes, don't you?
06:30I'm not saying it's as good or it will be as prolific or we'll finish seventh in the
06:34Premier League twice in a row, but there's a good, strong heritage of that, the glory
06:39days at Sunderland under Peter Reid.
06:41So I'm enjoying it.
06:42It feels nice and nostalgic.
06:43You know, we just need a Summerby and an Alan Johnston, you know, left and right wing and
06:48you know, maybe a Stefan Schwartz in the middle or something and the glory days are back.
06:55I think that's the thing, isn't it?
06:56We spoke about it on the post-match reaction video, but this is not just two players who've
07:00sort of been stuck up there and a make and do.
07:03This is actually an effective strike partnership.
07:06They dovetail nicely, they're playing off each other nicely.
07:09It's two assists from Maénda, four Isidore now in two matches.
07:13You know, there's clearly a really good working relationship there, you know, and I think
07:18you can see it in the way that they interact outside of in-game moments as well.
07:23You know, the celebrations, the post-match celebrations, like they're clearly two players
07:28who are enjoying and appreciating playing alongside each other and I think that's a
07:32really positive thing for Sunderland as well as the fact, and again, it's something you
07:36sort of alluded to there, but you know, Sunderland don't have to be set in their ways.
07:41They don't have to come out and say, right, we are playing 4-4-2 every week now.
07:45That is in concrete and nothing's going to change.
07:47There are going to be games where Le Bris, when he has a full contingent available to
07:51him, maybe does feel the need to go to a 4-4-2.
07:54I think that there are certainly merits to it against teams who are willing to come at
07:59you a little bit more.
08:00You know, I think against a lower block, it's a sort of phrase that we hear a lot and it's
08:06sort of become a bit of a boogie word, isn't it?
08:09You know, like a lower block, but genuinely, like against those teams who are willing to
08:13sort of set up and frustrate you, it might not always be the most effective, you know,
08:16but at least Sunderland now know that they have the option of going a different way.
08:23You know, it doesn't always have to be the 4-3-3 and it doesn't always have to be, you
08:26know, relying on the wingers.
08:29There are different patterns of play, different ways of getting at teams and different ways
08:33of hurting different opponents.
08:34So it hasn't necessarily been something that we would have expected and it has kind of
08:39been forced upon Regis Le Bris.
08:40But I do think that these past couple of games have really shown a different side of
08:45Sunderland and a really positive alternative for the head coach as well.
08:48So I think that's something that has to be lauded.
08:52With the 4-4-2 as well, like those two are so pacey up front, it's almost catching
09:00teams out, like Portsmouth in the first 10 minutes, you were looking at them and just
09:03thinking like, what are you doing?
09:05Because they've clearly come, they try and play decent football under the head coach,
09:09to be fair, and they've yielded some decent results after a terrible start.
09:14So he's clearly got something about him.
09:15And I thought he was very impressive in his post-match pressure as well.
09:19But they were trying to play out from the back.
09:21They were trying to play out from the goalkeeper.
09:22They had a really high line and it was so easy for Sunderland, really, in the opening
09:28stages, wasn't it?
09:28And I think when you play two up front like that and they're so fast and so dynamic and
09:32they can play off each other, if you're trying to play football at the back, then you're
09:37going to have to be careful because those two could really press.
09:39We've seen Wilson show elements of pressing, but he's been up front by himself.
09:43So it's been very difficult.
09:44Sunderland haven't necessarily played with a lot of the ball either.
09:48But with those two up front, I agree, it does create a different dynamic, whether that's
09:51sustainable, as I mentioned, against a Burnley away from home or whatever, I think definitely
09:56remains to be seen.
09:57But it's definitely a good weapon to have.
10:01Yeah, it is.
10:01The way I sort of described it, I wrote a piece over the weekend that sort of felt like
10:06the Sheffield United match to me felt a bit like a judo match in the sense that the more
10:10that Sheffield United committed, the more Sunderland were just waiting to trip them and
10:14use that sort of their own weight against them and counteract that.
10:19And, you know, they have done it well.
10:20They have done it well.
10:21And obviously, you know, not just in terms of goals, but the Marlon Pack sending off
10:26yesterday, you know, that was it came directly from Wilson's press.
10:29He nicked it off his toe, as we've seen him do so many times this season, to be fair,
10:32but, you know, obviously led to the red card.
10:34And I think that with the exception of that last five minutes, that was when Sunderland
10:39looked at their most dangerous, you know, when Portsmouth went down to 10 men, they
10:43were sort of trying to readjust to what they had to do to stay in the game.
10:47I thought Sunderland should have been out of sight at that point, obviously weren't
10:51able to bury the chances and bury the game.
10:53But, you know, again, it comes from the strikers.
10:57It comes from Isidore forcing a mistake, forcing a sending off and ultimately giving Sunderland
11:01the advantage in the game, you know, for a decent period of the contest.
11:06Just sort of looking at the festive period more broadly, James, obviously, if we go from
11:10Boxing Day, a late draw against Blackburn Rovers, a disappointing late draw, I think
11:15it's fair to say, given the manner in which Sunderland threw away a 2-1 lead.
11:20Then obviously defeat against managerless Stoke City, bounce back with a really good
11:24win over Sheffield United and then follow that up with a pretty routine, but still a
11:28decent three points against Portsmouth as well.
11:30I mean, taking those four games as a whole, do you think Sunderland will be pleased with
11:35that return?
11:36To be honest, I think you've got to be.
11:38It's just one of those things in football, isn't it?
11:40That over Christmas, teams are going to drop points and there's going to be late goals.
11:43Things are going to happen.
11:44Lebris rightly pointed towards the fact that Sunderland have played five games in 15 days.
11:49Yes, it is the same for every other club over the festive period, but that's why you see
11:53mad results like, you know, Hull City coming from 3-1 down to draw against Leeds United
11:59and all of that sort of stuff.
12:01Sheffield United have dropped points to us.
12:03So when you look at it, when you look at the league, yes, we've had a couple of disappointing
12:07results.
12:08You know, Stoke was hugely disappointing.
12:09We could have won that game against Blackburn, but Sunderland are now three points off the
12:14top of the league and we're actually 11 clear of Blackburn in seventh place.
12:19So if you look at it as a whole, Sunderland have actually come out of the festive period
12:23and I would say it's like a net positive.
12:25They've closed the gap on the top two.
12:28That's now looking attainable.
12:30Whereas at one point it looked like it could just be slipping away and there's also a really,
12:35really nice buffer now separating, you know, playoff sides and non-playoff sides.
12:40So I think it has to be a positive.
12:42You know, the flip side to that is, you know, it was such a good opportunity to go to Stoke
12:47and win down there and arguably on the balance of play, the balance of chances, they should
12:51have had at least a point, if not the win, if they'd have got the win there and then
12:57beaten Blackburn, hadn't conceded that late goal or Miander had got the winner, then suddenly
13:02you are like top of the league.
13:05So there is that as well.
13:06So I do understand the frustrations, but I just think that over Christmas, mad things
13:11tend to happen.
13:12It's so busy.
13:13Teams drop points.
13:14It's just the golden rule of football.
13:16You know, you look further afield in the Premier League, it's such a busy time and Liverpool
13:21should have beaten Man United last night on form.
13:24They didn't, they dropped points.
13:25Chelsea have dropped points over Christmas, haven't been in an electric form.
13:28So I think it's just one of those things that happens.
13:32I think the pleasing thing is that Sunder managed to bounce back because I think you
13:35can have your season's objectives derailed over Christmas quite seriously, given the
13:41amount of games that come.
13:43But Sunder actually bounced back, got two wins, one against a promotion rival.
13:46So I see that as hugely positive, to be honest.
13:48Yes, there are elements and things that will need to be improved for sure, but I think
13:54it's positive to only lose one game over that festive period, definitely.
13:59Yeah, I would have to agree with that.
14:00I think at the moment, the key is sort of keeping pace, isn't it?
14:04You know, I think that obviously this is outside of Sunder's control, but if we're looking
14:07at a situation where, you know, you drop those points against Blackburn and Stoke and then
14:13that then allows Burnley, Sheffield United, Leeds United to really sort of open up a bit
14:18of a gap, which, you know, I think there have been points over the past few weeks where
14:22we've sort of been a little bit worried that that might start to happen, then I think it's
14:27a much bigger concern.
14:29But you're absolutely right.
14:29I think that we're sort of going to have to accept, I think at least, I think we're going
14:36to have to accept over the course of the season that the Championship is not how it was last
14:41year.
14:41You know, last year we saw Leicester City, Ipswich Town really pull away, really sort
14:45of accelerate away from the rest of the chasing pack.
14:48And, you know, they were always looking as if they were going to be the teams to secure
14:51all my promotion.
14:52I think this season, the very nature of those four teams scrapping it out, and then the
14:57fact that the rest of the division, you know, as is generally the way of the Championship,
15:00but is highly competitive, I think there are going to be a lot of teams dropping points.
15:03And I think that as long as Sunderland can, you know, it's almost a case of timing, but
15:08if they can keep securing those positive results when it matters, when, you know, the backs
15:13are against the wall and when they're able to, you know, maybe dig out six points in
15:17two games over the course of a week and really just put themselves back into contention,
15:20if they can keep on moving forward, if the momentum is overall generally positive, then
15:28I think that, you know, they put themselves in a really good position to hopefully, you
15:33know, have an outside, not even an outside chance, but, you know, a chance of making
15:36those automatics.
15:37I still think that, you know, playoffs are a much more realistic aim.
15:41And I think the fact that they've opened up that 11 point gap over seventh is a huge,
15:45huge thing.
15:46Because I think that if anybody at the start of the season had said that we'd be in the
15:49new year, first week of the new year, and Sunderland would be in that position, regardless
15:54of what the automatic picture was looking like, I think that every Sunderland fan would
15:58have bitten your hand off for that, given what happened at the end of last season.
16:01So I think that overall, Sunderland have to be really happy with where they're at.
16:06And I think that, you know, there are, there are going to be disappointments.
16:10There are going to be results that you look at and you go, you know, should have held
16:13on for the win against Blackburn, probably should have got something against Stoke.
16:15But, you know, you mentioned it there, Leeds United would look at the whole city game over
16:18the weekend and say exactly the same.
16:19I think every team is going to have those results.
16:22And as long as Sunderland are able to keep on picking up the points, in the manner that
16:26they are at the moment, if they're able to keep pace in the manner that they are at the
16:30moment, then they have to be praised for that.
16:32And it has to be seen as a positive, like you said.
16:36I think as well, Gert, you're right to point towards the league being as it is, it's very,
16:40very tight at the top.
16:42And I just think as well, like it's a, I think you're right.
16:45I think at the moment we're a playoff team with an outside shot at reaching the automatics.
16:50I think January obviously could aid that.
16:52But I'm encouraged as well for a few reasons.
16:55Obviously, we've played everybody once now.
16:57Some teams have played twice, you know, Stoke and Sheffield United.
17:00But I haven't really seen anything which has really concerned me.
17:05I haven't seen us come up against the team and not be able to compete.
17:08Yes, we've lost games, we've dropped points.
17:10You know, the 2-2 against Leeds United at the stadium, there was a period of that where
17:14I thought Leeds were really in the ascendancy.
17:16But then Sunderland actually managed to sort of flip that back around.
17:19So without sort of being arrogant and big-headed, as I say, Sunderland will probably lose again
17:25before the end of the season.
17:26But I don't think there's anything to fear now, which I think is positive for that young
17:32group as well.
17:32I think that could be quite, sort of quite, it could give them quite a lot of confidence.
17:38You know, they've had a look at everybody.
17:39They've played everybody once.
17:40They know they've got nothing to fear.
17:42They know they can compete.
17:43That sort of emboldens your attitude, doesn't it?
17:45It gives you that little bit of arrogance with the players that are set to come back
17:49as well.
17:50So, yes, as we'll probably come on to talk about now, I do think there is an opportunity
17:56here in January to really go and do something because that league is wide open at the top.
18:01And every time you think a team is going to pull away a little bit, they just don't capitalise
18:05on that opportunity.
18:06And Leeds is a classic example.
18:08Absolutely, absolutely.
18:10Like you say, obviously, January transfer window, I think it's going to be on a lot
18:14of people's minds at the moment, especially given the position that some of them find
18:17themselves in.
18:18I mean, let's just discuss a few names.
18:20There are a few rumours doing the rounds already.
18:22Just interested to sort of get your feelings on those.
18:25The latest one being Enzo Lefevre, obviously currently on the books at AS Roma.
18:31Signed for them, quite a big money move, it has to be said.
18:34Has worked with Regis Lebris before, central midfielder, worked with him at Lorient.
18:39I mean, do you think this is one that has legs?
18:42Do you think this could potentially happen?
18:47I mean, this isn't based on any sort of insider knowledge at all.
18:50I have no information about this transfer other than what has been reported elsewhere.
18:55I think it makes sense in several ways.
18:57Obviously, Regis Lebris really, really likes the play.
19:01You would presume that Lefevre really likes Lebris as well, having worked with him at
19:06Lorient for so long as a head coach and when Lebris was part of the youth set as well.
19:11So really between the lines, I'm guessing Lebris has sort of brought him through over
19:15several seasons.
19:16I mean, he's made 208 first team appearances across his career already, which is hugely
19:22impressive for a 24-year-old.
19:23So in terms of him needing a career revival and Lebris maybe having the pull or the sway
19:29to get that deal done, I could absolutely sort of see it from that regard.
19:34However, I also think you have to note that he is worth 20 million quid.
19:39I think Real Betis have been mentioned as a potential suitor.
19:42That sort of seems to have been nixed in the past 24 hours.
19:45That one doesn't look like it's going to go ahead.
19:48By all accounts, he's a very good player.
19:50I mean, you probably have to be to get bought by Roma in Serie A for 20 million quid.
19:55Obviously, it's not work from there under Claudio Ranieri.
19:58I think Roma are the third manager of the season.
20:01In terms of him needing a home and a manager who's going to believe in him, I can absolutely
20:07see it.
20:07But he's probably going to have other suitors as well, and that probably muddies the water.
20:11Could it give Sunderland an advantage?
20:13Did he know Lebris?
20:14Definitely.
20:15As always, these things tend to come down to money.
20:18What's the best financial package for Roma?
20:20Will it be a loan?
20:20Will it be an option to buy?
20:22What can Sunderland offer?
20:24Christian Speakman's talked about those non-cash benefits of coming to a club like Sunderland,
20:29the Academy of Lights, all of those things, the opportunity to play.
20:33But I think Sunderland actually are a really attractive destination, regardless of what
20:38happens with this transfer.
20:40I mean, the three points off the automatics, chance to play in the Premier League next
20:44season.
20:44Hopefully, you would think a chance to sort of be involved in that end of season running.
20:50You know, Sunderland have done well with younger players.
20:54I know he's 24, but he'd probably come and play, gets a chance to play with other good
20:58young players in a club that really believes in them.
21:01So, I could see it happening from that point of view, but it's just so unpredictable, isn't
21:06it?
21:06You don't know what's going to happen.
21:07And perhaps maybe the thing we're missing as well is that because of the Lebris connection,
21:11it's an easy link to make.
21:13You see these sort of links pop up all of the time.
21:16So, it's exciting.
21:18I'm not going to shy away from the fact that I would quite like us to sign him, despite
21:22having never seen him play.
21:23But his profile certainly really excites me.
21:26Want to watch.
21:27Hopefully, it doesn't become another Alexandre Mendy and goes and goes and goes.
21:30And we're sick of hearing about it by the end of it.
21:32But yeah, you know, all better off, I would say.
21:38I'm just waiting until the Alexandre Mendy links reappear, to be honest with you.
21:45Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it?
21:46I think you're right.
21:48I think that the Lebris connection is an easy one to make.
21:52I think, you know, it's telling that this is coming from the French media as well.
21:56That probably plays into that a little bit.
22:00But I do also think that it's interesting that while this would be a hugely ambitious
22:06move from Sunderland, while it would be a massive coup if it were to come off, just
22:10based on where the players are, how much money he went for recently, all that sort of stuff.
22:14You know, I do think it's interesting that it doesn't feel wholly unrealistic.
22:20The fact that Sunderland have put themselves in a position where they are actually able
22:24to be linked with these players and we're not just immediately dismissing it out of
22:28hand.
22:29You know, I think that that speaks volumes to how far they've come in such a short period
22:34of time under Regis Lebris, you know, and I think they have to be commended for that.
22:39I think everything you've said is absolutely right.
22:41In terms of Sunderland being a destination where a player like Lefebvre could come in
22:45and potentially sort of reignite himself a little bit, maybe, you know, rekindle the
22:51traits that convinced Roma to go and sign him in the first place.
22:54I actually think that, you know, and I say this without being biased or at least trying
22:59not to be biased, I don't think there are many places, certainly in England, that you'd
23:04look at and say would be a better option than Sunderland.
23:07You know, I think they've got a track record at this point of being able to bring players
23:11who are maybe faltering a little bit and sort of coaxing them back to a position of real
23:15prominence and giving them the game time, the opportunity to go and express themselves
23:19and to sort of realise some of that potential which might have dissipated a little bit.
23:23So, in that sense, I think, you know, it's not completely out of the question, but I
23:28do think it's one that I'm a little bit wary of.
23:31I'm a little bit wary of until I see something to convince me otherwise, is what I'd probably
23:35say.
23:36By that same metric, another midfielder who Sunderland have been linked with, Glenn Kamara,
23:40obviously was on the books at Leeds, left to go and join Stade Rennais over in France.
23:46He's a player who has been mentioned as a possible loan option in recent weeks.
23:52I mean, is he a player rather who you think would bring something to Sunderland if that
23:57were to happen?
24:00I mean, I think so.
24:01He's a very, very capable player, isn't he?
24:04We've seen that at Rangers and Leeds, hugely experienced, 29 years old now.
24:09I get the feeling that that one, and I might be completely wrong about this, probably hinges
24:13on how well Sam Ed does when he comes back.
24:15Obviously, he's out on the grass now.
24:16This mythical player that we're all pinning our promotion hopes on is due to come back
24:22at some point.
24:22So, I'd be interested to see how that affects it.
24:25You know, Lebris has obviously hinted that he would like additions in midfield and we
24:31can understand that, can't we?
24:33Because obviously, you know, Riggs had his injury, Joe Bellingham's played a lot of football,
24:36so has Dan Neal.
24:37But you've sort of got to counteract that with if Glenn Kamara comes in for six months,
24:41does that harm the development of one of these players?
24:45It has to be a balance, doesn't it?
24:47Obviously, there's a lot of games, things happen, injuries, so you'd like the cover
24:51if possible and you'd like the experience if possible.
24:53But it's an interesting one, that one.
24:56I think he's probably going to have a lot of suitors as well.
24:59So, someone will be competing in a crowded market.
25:03But a six-month loan deal for a 29-year-old with championship experience, with experience
25:07playing at the top level, I think it makes quite a lot of sense, really, doesn't it?
25:11He's quite clearly a good player, would quite clearly bring something.
25:14But will it work with Sunderland's squad on a short-term basis?
25:18I don't see why not.
25:20That one seems to have got a little bit quieter, though, doesn't it?
25:23For the moment, there hasn't been as much noise about that, which can mean a multitude
25:27of things.
25:27It could mean something's really close and we don't know about it, or it could mean that
25:30there's nothing in it at all.
25:33Again, don't really have much insight on that one other than what's been reported elsewhere.
25:38So, another one where you've just got to suck it and see, I think.
25:41Absolutely, absolutely.
25:43And then, of course, another name who I feel like is going to be mentioned an awful lot
25:48on Wearside, and to be fair, across the championship this month, is Louis Barry.
25:53Recalled by Aston Villa, presumably with view to being sent out on loan.
25:58Again, although I do know that The Telegraph were reporting last week that Villa could
26:02look to cash in on him on a permanent basis, which, again, bear in mind how much you would
26:07expect they would ask for.
26:09It might not be the best news in the world for Sunderland.
26:12Obviously, we've spoke about Barry already on this podcast, James, but just interested
26:17to get your view on that one as well.
26:18Because, obviously, a player who predominantly plays on the left is capable of playing across
26:24a front three, is impressed immensely in League One this season.
26:27And I don't think there's anybody would argue that he is deserving of a shot at a higher
26:31level.
26:32I mean, do you think that he is the sort of attack and reinforcement that Sunderland
26:37should be looking to bring in over the course of the next few weeks?
26:40I think so.
26:41He's clearly a good player.
26:43We spoke about it on the podcast.
26:44If you can score goals when you're chasing automatic promotion, then fantastic.
26:50You need variety.
26:51We spoke about the Ipswich example of last year.
26:54What I think is interesting about Barry is Unai Emery spoke about it a little bit over
26:59the weekend, and he doesn't really seem sure what he's going to do with him yet.
27:02He sort of left the door open for him to go and contribute at Aston Villa this season
27:07if they need him.
27:08He also mentioned that he's got a little bit of a niggling injury at the moment, which
27:13sounds like it would be right up Sunderland Street, given recent recruitment options.
27:18And then he said he could go on loan and he could be sold.
27:21So it does feel like there's a lot of work to do on that one.
27:26Again, there's going to be pretty much every club in the Championship, I would imagine,
27:29would be interested in Louis Barry.
27:32I think that type of player, will he definitely sign for Sunderland?
27:36I don't know.
27:39But again, basically what we said about Le Fay, isn't it, that Sunderland are a really
27:43attractive place for youngsters to go.
27:45You need only look at the likes of Jack Clarke and Patrick Roberts, who've done well at
27:49Sunderland in an attacking sense over the years.
27:52He will play, he will get game time, and he's an exciting player.
27:59With all of these transfers, it's always multifaceted, isn't it?
28:02What does Aston Villa want?
28:03What does Louis Barry want?
28:04Although I did notice that he dropped a like on, I think you wrote the story, Jase?
28:08Because we all write about Instagram likes these days, slim pickings, isn't it?
28:13But yeah, he did like a comment saying that you should go to Sunderland.
28:16So does that mean anything in the modern world?
28:18I don't know.
28:19Could it be an indication?
28:20I'm not saying it is or it isn't.
28:22Could it be significant?
28:23I don't know.
28:24It depends how far you read into these things, doesn't it?
28:28Yeah, I was going to say, I've been burned by Instagram before.
28:31Amadeo Arlo's busy thumbs and all that sort of stuff.
28:34I think we've been here.
28:37Shall we discuss some, I was going to say possible outgoings, but might not be that
28:42pressing, but certainly some interest in a possible outgoing in the future.
28:46Matt Young is doing phenomenally well at Salford Sea at the moment.
28:49Is it now eight clean sheets in nine?
28:51Something ludicrous like that.
28:53The sort of record that just doesn't happen in modern football.
28:57But he's playing wonderfully well for Salford Sea.
29:00So well, in fact, that he is said to be attracting interest from Manchester City,
29:05who Salford play in the FA Cup this weekend as well.
29:07So that's an interesting one to keep an eye on.
29:10I mean, what are your thoughts on this?
29:12Because he is really, really impressive at the moment, isn't he?
29:16You know, he's a tremendous prospect, like a real, real top tier prospect.
29:20And I think there's just going to be interest generally in him
29:23and throughout the transfer window and beyond.
29:28But Sunderland are in a really good position.
29:29He signed a new contract in November, which isn't that long ago, which runs until 2028.
29:35So I think to dislodge him from Sunderland, it would take mega money.
29:38I think from the impression I get, he's very level headed and down to earth.
29:43Again, he understands that Sunderland is a really good opportunity for him,
29:47maybe in a year, maybe in two years to go and play regularly and learn his trade further.
29:54Obviously, the glaring example is Anthony Patterson, who's done so well.
29:58Matt Young's also a Sunderland fan from a Sunderland supporting family.
30:02So my guess is that he would quite like to pull on the red and white
30:06of Sunderland or the green goalkeeping jersey of Sunderland
30:10for a prolonged period of time before moving on.
30:13Or, you know, he might be at Sunderland for 10 years
30:14and he might achieve loads of things with Matt Young.
30:16But I get the impression he would like to tick that off his bucket list before.
30:21But he's a ridiculous prospect.
30:23I think it's seven and eight in the league, but then eight and nine in the FA Cup.
30:28Or it might be a rug above that.
30:32But he's done really well to break it to the side.
30:34Jamie Jones, 35-year-old goalkeeper, I think ex-Middlesbrough,
30:38was the first choice under Carl Robinson during the early part of the season.
30:41Matt Young's done really well to force himself into Salford's plans
30:45with a couple of excellent performances, saving penalties left, right and centre.
30:50Got under the radar a bit, but he played for England under-18s,
30:54under-19s and under-20s in one calendar year.
30:57Now I need to do some digging, but I don't know if anybody's ever done that before.
31:02There might be somebody, but that's a pretty mean feat.
31:05I don't think really there's any need for him to be thinking about moving currently.
31:09I don't think he will go.
31:12You know, he's got a really interesting second half of the season coming up at Salford,
31:16who, as you say, play Manchester City in the FA Cup.
31:19Will he get the nod for that game or will it go back to Jamie Jones?
31:22I think that remains to be seen.
31:23So that's an interesting sort of subplot leading up to this week.
31:27Salford City as well, they're in the automatic promotion spots in League Two.
31:32So he's got a big six months coming up and he's a hugely exciting prospect.
31:39But in terms of Sunderland first-team credentials,
31:41obviously I don't see him leaving anytime soon.
31:43I think a lot will depend on what happens with Anthony Patterson,
31:47which again, in turn, could depend on which division Sunderland are in.
31:51Like if Sunderland don't get promoted this season,
31:53I could feasibly see us keeping Holder Patterson, yes.
31:57I could also see him going.
31:59If Sunderland get promoted to the Premier League, would Patterson want to leave?
32:02I don't know.
32:05You know, will they still be interested in him in six to 12 months' time?
32:08So that's sort of really, really...
32:13It's not a blocker for Matt Young,
32:15but you're going to have a little bit of competition there.
32:18One thing that's said about Matt Young as well is that he really, really enhances
32:22that goalkeeping group when he does train with Sunderland.
32:25He does come back and train every now and again.
32:28And that goalkeeping group's very good, very tight, obviously, with Simon Mewer.
32:31And Barkarini, the goalkeeping coach as well.
32:33But Matt Young really does sort of help push standards up and drive standards,
32:38all of that sort of stuff.
32:38And it's good to have sort of a young, hungry kid around the place.
32:42And so, yeah, I mean, I've rambled on a bit there, but he is hugely exciting.
32:46I don't think he's going to go.
32:48And I do genuinely see him as a potential Sunderland number one.
32:52I just don't know when that happens.
32:54But there is a scenario that exists where...
32:57And it's perhaps maybe a little bit unlikely,
33:00but Matt Young starts for Salford against Manchester City, has a blinder,
33:04and then suddenly, you know, he is the heir apparent to Patterson in the summer.
33:10You just don't know how these things are going to work.
33:13Yeah, I think the key thing with him is his age, really, isn't it?
33:17You know, he's not...
33:18I think if he was two or three years older
33:20and he was two or three years closer to Patterson in age,
33:23then I think maybe there'd perhaps be, you know,
33:27a little bit more of a pressing need for him to be considering his options.
33:30But, you know, I think the fact that Patterson continues to attract attention
33:34and I think the fact that Young is so young, for want of a better word,
33:40then, you know, I think there is a real...
33:44You can see a potential succession plan is what I'm trying to say.
33:46You know, you can foresee a situation where Patterson does maybe move on
33:51and Young maybe does establish himself, you know.
33:54So, you know, there's no rush.
33:57There's no rush for him.
33:58You know, I think that the fact that he signed that contract,
34:01the fact that he is so young,
34:03just got to keep doing what he's doing, really, doesn't he?
34:06You know, he's really impressed with Salford.
34:08And, you know, if he keeps on playing the way that he's playing,
34:11then the world is genuinely going to be his oyster.
34:13So I think that...
34:13And you're right to mention his age as well,
34:17because, you know, an 18-year-old goalkeeper
34:20feasibly has another 22 years left in the game,
34:2222 seasons perhaps.
34:24That gets him to 40.
34:25Some players even play beyond that.
34:26So, like, he's got time on his side, hasn't he?
34:29Yeah, massively, massively.
34:32Yeah, and just three names who I feel like
34:34we're going to keep on talking about a lot
34:36over the course of January as well.
34:37Three first, well, I say first team,
34:40ostensibly first team players on Weah's side
34:43who could be facing uncertain futures.
34:47Adil Ashish, obviously a very interesting one,
34:49bearing in mind that he's playing a lot of
34:50first team football at the moment.
34:51Abdullah Barr, who is barely getting a look in whatsoever.
34:55And then Naz Rusan, who came off the bench
34:58for a little cameo yesterday against Portsmouth,
35:00but I think it's fair to say
35:02isn't hugely part of La Brice's plans.
35:05I mean, those three,
35:06if we've got any sort of indication
35:08on where their futures might lie, rather,
35:10over the coming weeks.
35:13I think reading between the lines from La Brice,
35:15I think with Rusan,
35:17it'll depend on who Sunlink can get in.
35:19I think at the moment, as things stand,
35:20he's like a squad option.
35:21He obviously, he's come off the bench
35:23recently to see games out.
35:24I think he likes him, but not as a starter.
35:27So I think if Sunlink were to sign,
35:29like a Louis Barry or a Premier League loanee
35:32or somebody else, I could see Rusan going.
35:34Abdullah Barr, I think has to go,
35:36just for the sake of his career,
35:38whether that's loan or permanent.
35:39He needs to go and play football
35:41somewhere at some level.
35:42Don't know where that'll be, possibly abroad.
35:45I don't know if I could really see him
35:46going on loan domestically for some reason,
35:48but I can, I'll probably eat me words on that.
35:51Adil Ashish, I think is an interesting one, isn't it?
35:53Because he's done so well,
35:55he's performed so well in his two starts
35:57that he sort of forced his way back
35:59into La Bresa's plans.
36:01And I actually think he's a really good option
36:03to have, even when everybody is fit.
36:05I think you need quality.
36:07He can be slightly erratic
36:10when he loses the ball in certain positions.
36:13And he can be a little bit sort of lax defensively.
36:17He's not lazy, like he puts a shift in,
36:19but sometimes he's a little bit lax
36:20in his defensive work.
36:22However, saying that against Portsmouth,
36:24I thought he put a real shift
36:26up and down the left-hand side.
36:28So again, can't really see Ashish leave.
36:31And actually in January, caveat to that
36:34is if Sutherland brought in like two, three,
36:36four, five, then he may go.
36:38But I think he's done exceptionally well
36:41to come back in and earn his spot.
36:43He's a player I like.
36:44He's clearly a player Sutherland liked as well.
36:46I think it was a four or five-year contract
36:48that gave him.
36:49He's had absolutely rotten luck as well.
36:51I wrote a piece about this
36:54when he got his first start.
36:56And he came in under Tony Mowbray.
36:58He was on the bench.
36:59Then I think he started three on the bounce.
37:02And Mowbray gets slack.
37:03Beale comes in.
37:04He comes off the bench against Ipswich,
37:06makes a mistake.
37:07Beale sort of bombs him out.
37:09Then it's Mike Dodds again,
37:13interim charge until the end of the season.
37:15Then he was sort of started another three or four.
37:18And then he was out of the team.
37:20And then he sort of came in towards the back end
37:21of Sutherland's season.
37:23And then Lebris has turned up.
37:24So it's another new manager,
37:25another new coach and staff.
37:28So he's just never really had that run of games
37:30and consistency.
37:32And at the beginning of this season,
37:34I think he came on against Sheffield Wednesday
37:36at the Stadium of Light.
37:37And then he went 15 match days
37:40without playing another minute
37:42until the Sheffield United game,
37:45which I thought was incredible, really.
37:48And for a large part of that,
37:49he wasn't even in the squad,
37:51which was mad.
37:52So his sort of redemption arc's been really impressive.
37:55But I like him.
37:56And I actually sort of like,
37:58from a fan's perspective as well,
38:00I hope he stays because he's quite exciting.
38:02And I enjoy watching him play football.
38:05Yeah, yeah, I fully agree.
38:07I think that first of all,
38:09there is undoubtedly a player in there.
38:12He's a huge talent.
38:14I think it's obvious to see that
38:17whether he's a left winger,
38:18and obviously it's a move
38:20that's being necessitated by absence,
38:21but whether he is actually capable
38:26of having a sustained run on that left flank,
38:28I'm not sure.
38:29I'm not even sure La Brissa's sure,
38:30to be perfectly honest with you.
38:31I think Ashish himself would certainly say
38:34that he's more comfortable in a central role.
38:37But that sort of leads into my second point,
38:39which is that he really does have to be praised
38:42for his application and his attitude
38:44because this is a player who was
38:45not even on the periphery.
38:46He was just not a part of La Brissa's plans.
38:49You know, he's playing under-21s football,
38:51wasn't getting any minutes,
38:52was barely making match-day squads at one point.
38:56And yet he's stuck at it.
38:58He's evidently shown enough.
39:02And this is no reflex.
39:04Obviously, we don't see behind the scenes,
39:05all that sort of stuff.
39:06But when the comparison is an Abdullah Barr
39:09who isn't getting those minutes,
39:12you perhaps look at it and you go,
39:13well, maybe La Brissa's seeing something in Ashish,
39:16which he perhaps isn't in Abdullah Barr.
39:17That's not a comment on attitude or application
39:19or anything such as that.
39:20But it does show that Ashish is clearly proving himself
39:24in a way that Barr isn't.
39:26You know, and I think that the fact
39:28that he's been able to stick with it under La Brissa,
39:31he's come back into the side.
39:32And not only that, he's not just making up numbers.
39:34He is having a positive impact on matches.
39:37You know, I think that he really does have
39:39to be commended for that.
39:40I think that taking all of that into account,
39:42I agree with you.
39:43At this exact moment in time,
39:45it's kind of difficult to see him leaving.
39:47But that being said, when everybody is back
39:51and everybody is fit and firing,
39:54how much of an opportunity is there there for him?
39:57And I'm not convinced that there's a massive one.
40:00And so it's a difficult decision that someone
40:03might have to make as the month goes on.
40:05And it's going to be a really intriguing one,
40:06I think it's fair to say.
40:07But certainly in the here and now,
40:09I think Ashish does deserve a huge amount of praise
40:12for the way that he's worked his way back
40:14into contention.
40:16I think what you have to say about Sunderland
40:18as well is that they're a very good and fair club
40:20in not standing in the way of a player
40:23if that player wants to go and get first-team football.
40:26You know, they've done it with like Bailey Wright
40:28over the years from memory.
40:30Obviously, there was a sort of a gentleman's agreement
40:33with Jack Clarke that if Sunderland didn't get promoted,
40:35then they would sort of facilitate that move
40:37so they didn't sort of hinder and block his career.
40:40And whilst it's not to the same profile and level,
40:42if we get to the end of the transfer window,
40:44we do have all of these players back,
40:45you know, Mundell and Watson on the left.
40:47We might have a Louis Barry or somebody of that ilk.
40:50Then you've got Riggs, Samed,
40:52and maybe a Liffey or a Glenn Kamara in the middle.
40:55And suddenly it's sort of slim pickings again, isn't it?
40:57You know, Ashish could play off the right book then
40:59if Perveda's back enough.
41:01I know that's a big if.
41:02You've got Aaron Connolly floating around.
41:04So that's in an ideal world, I suppose,
41:06at the end of January.
41:07It's never that simple.
41:08You do always pick up injuries.
41:11Whilst I don't think Sunderland would stand in his way,
41:13it would have to make sense for the club as well.
41:15They couldn't leave themselves short.
41:17I just think the way it feels at this moment,
41:20on the 6th of January, that he's going to stay.
41:23That could change in two weeks.
41:24Sunderland might sign four players
41:25and suddenly it looks very grim for him.
41:27But at the moment, I think he stays
41:29and I think he should stay.
41:32Absolutely, absolutely.
41:34Okay, well, that's all we've got time for on this week's show.
41:36Join us again next week when we'll be discussing
41:38all of the latest Sunderland news and developments.
41:40In the meantime, follow all the latest Blackcaps news
41:42on the Sunderland Echo
41:43or give us a follow on social media as well.
41:46Thanks to James.
41:47Thanks to you for listening.